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, I have been shouting about Bitcoin from the rooftops since early 2013.

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And in those days, people barely even knew the term fiat money, now,

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in just the recent months, we have people like Javier Millet explaining

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Cantillon Effect on television So, you know, it just takes time, it takes

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repetition, and over time, people just start to realize, oh wait, it's just

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You know, this is just the new way.

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And so therefore, I'm looking at it when, you know, the Jamie Diamonds of the world

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or Christine Lagarde of the world try to discredit Bitcoin They're trying to make

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it seem uncool or not the done thing.

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Obviously on the other side of that, you've got people like us and others

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out there who are just saying no.

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Like, yeah, you should use Bitcoin.

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It's a better technology.

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Just upgrade your money.

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It's cooler.

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It's better.

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It's simply a better technology.

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Why wouldn't you use it?

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And over time, I believe the Bitcoin people will win out.

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Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint show, the Bitcoin

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philosophy show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn.

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And we're here today with Stephan Livera, well known Bitcoin podcaster,

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host of the Stephan Livera podcast and Austrian economist, head of education

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at Swan Bitcoin, and he does a whole bunch of other stuff in the space.

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So we're really excited to have you here.

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So Stephan, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show.

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Hey, thanks for inviting me guys.

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Yeah, great.

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Uh, last time, like, we haven't had a conversation for,

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for, uh, quite a while now.

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I think I was on your pod last time and, uh, yeah, and well, we've spoken

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in person in between that, but yeah, what, what are you doing at the moment?

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Like, what, what's your main thing except being Just being Stephan Livera,

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I this Bitcoin does that to people.

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You just go around, be yourself all day and it's awesome.

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But yeah.

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What's your main focus today?

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Well, yeah, probably two main things, right?

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As you know, my podcast, I spent a lot of time on that.

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And also just being head of education at Swan.

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So I'm working on some educational content and things like that.

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And periodically I might write an article for Swan Private Insight,

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which is our special monthly research report that goes out to our Swan

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Private customers and subscribers.

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So, you know, whether it's writing content and doing some things in the

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background for Swan or obviously doing podcasting, researching podcast guests

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and, you know, getting new podcast guests on or doing editing and things like

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that, as well as, of course, following what's going on in the Bitcoin space,

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because obviously I'm trying to cover the space and provide relevant content.

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Information both of the economic side and at the technical side because as

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you probably know, I've maintained for a long time that you really, you need

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both to actually understand Bitcoin.

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You sort of, you need a good base of economics and some of the historical

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understanding of money and you know, what's going on with that as

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well as some technical knowledge about Bitcoin and without it.

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a decent level of both.

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You simply won't grasp it, right?

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You might fall down the kind of the blockchain, uh, blockchain, not

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Bitcoin, uh, route, or you might become a person who thinks, oh, tokenize

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the world or some other garbage, or you might become a shit coiner.

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Uh, you know, so there's various, uh, reasons why I think we all have

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to continually educate ourselves on economics and technology.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Giacomo made a, a nice Venn diagram about that.

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like the idealists and the

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He had the,

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cultural, and that was kind

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of like the subcultures of Bitcoin, and that was a slightly different

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point, but still related, right?

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Because I think he was talking about how there's like the cypherpunk people, and

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then you've got like developers, and then you've got maybe Let's call it like NGU

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sort of thing, but really the real best is to sort of be in that middle spot of the

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In the middle of the sweet spot, yeah.

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I just saw a clip of Jamie Dimon, and I think he's definitely in the wrong

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Like, everything he said was like the complete opposite of the truth.

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Well, it's funny because I saw that same clip and I was just responding to it.

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I did a quote tweet, but basically he commits a lot of the same kind of errors,

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or maybe he really does know, but he's just trying to discredit Bitcoin, right?

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So he brings up all the standard things.

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He goes, Oh, blockchain, not Bitcoin.

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He says, you know, tokenize the world.

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It's about tokenizing things.

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Uh, and also the typical, oh, Bitcoin is used for illegal drug laundering,

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whatever, terrorism, whatever, you know, typical narratives, because

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he's trying to discredit Bitcoin.

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And, you know, you do have to wonder, after this many years, is he

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really just dumb, or is he actually just trying to discredit Bitcoin?

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And I'm sort of leaning more towards He's not stupid here, like, he actually does

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understand, he could at least be able to better represent the view, like, if he

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at least said, Oh, I understand there's these people out there who view Bitcoin

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as sound money, but I disagree for this or that reason, that would be one thing.

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But clearly, he makes no mention at all of the sound money.

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case for Bitcoin, right?

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The Bitcoin standard, the safety numbers, vision, or, you know, whoever

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else, many of us have that view.

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Instead, he's trying to discredit Bitcoin and say, ah, see, it's blockchain, not

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Bitcoin, and all this other garbage.

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So, you know, I think he knows where his bread is buttered, and he

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wants to try to keep it this way.

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Now, of course, longer term, He and JP Morgan will have to bend

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the knee or become irrelevant.

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I think that's the bottom line, longer term.

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Absolutely.

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And like the, this is not a Jamie Diamond bashing show, but it could be.

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But, but it's a good example because there are many people who hold the same views

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and, and often, uh, people in, you know, powerful positions like Jamie Diamond,

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like who, who, uh, manages a lot of money.

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And he, what he says, uh, influences a lot of people.

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And if it's not just plain stupidity.

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Then it is, uh, insincerity, and that's really bad coming from that position.

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That's, that's going to hurt a lot of people.

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I mean, the, the thing that baffles me is this whole, like, every other

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shitcoin has a use case, but not bitcoin.

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Like, All the other stuff, the JPEG crap things going on and the smart,

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so called smart, idiotic moronic contracts, all of this crap that

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surrounds the space that is just buzzword salad and code salad tossed around.

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That's the thing he thinks has value.

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And he sees no value at all in Bitcoin, except if you want to do illicit activity.

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And it's not, he points out that it's not even good for that because it's More

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easily traceable or something than Monero or some shitcoin that's dead already.

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Like, so, yeah, it's It's just baffling to me that they like, it's like you

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have the circle and you want to, you want to construct a wheel and you

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have a perfect circle and people, and people like this, they try to

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promote, you know, rectangular shapes and hexagons and octagons and stuff.

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This is better.

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This wheel will be way more efficient because, you know, it

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has more corners or something.

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Yeah, it's absurd, right?

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They, they think it's about utility, right?

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Like, because in their mind, they're thinking of it like maybe

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smart contracts on the chain or some other thing like this.

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And in their mind, it only works if there is a utility.

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Whereas those of us coming from the, you know, most You know, actual

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hardcore Bitcoiners or people who've been here for a while are thinking

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about it as sound money, right?

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The utility is actually the monetary use of Bitcoin, right?

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So that he discredits that by saying, Oh, it's a pet rock.

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You guys don't know what you're talking about.

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Now, similar lines now in decades gone past, people made similar

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criticisms of gold, right?

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It's this Dead Relic, or it's a Barbarous Relic, it's just a pet rock, it's just

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a, you know, but they weren't thinking more broadly, or they knew better, but

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were trying to discredit that use case, because in their view, they want the fiat

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system to continue, because he is at the parasite level, or the parasite class, or

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the predator class, whichever one you, you know, you prefer, and they would very much

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rather that the fiat system exists, and that they can hoover up the benefits of

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that, and they No, that if hard money were to become more popular as an idea, that

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could really challenge his business model.

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And that could in turn really, you know, cause a lot of poverty

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for him and he doesn't want that.

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Well I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in just the sense that,

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you know, for most people, it's quite a leap to stop seeing what they've seen

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throughout their entire lives as money.

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To stop seeing that as money anymore.

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And like, seeing that as a big fucking scam, all of it.

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And there's this new thing that is, you know, better money, or more real money.

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But like, for most people, that's quite a hard pill to swallow, and

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I think Jamie might be one of them.

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It's either that or he's just being a very bad actor.

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Well, yeah, I mean, I, I think at the end of the day, it's,

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it's one or the other, right?

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It's, you know, the classic saying, I think it's Upton Sinclair who said, you

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know, you can't make a man understand something if his salary depends on

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him not understanding that, right?

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Obviously.

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CEO of JPMorgan, he has a very vested interest in retaining the system as it

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is and not trying to upend the system like Bitcoin eventually will, you know,

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as we believe in the medium to long term.

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Funny thing about Upton Sinclair that I learned while writing the praxeology

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book, I believe, like that, that he was a bit of a commie and a bit of a statist.

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Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

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You know, and that's the funny thing because there are people who,

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you know, will hold non liberty focused views, but they might

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still be interested in Bitcoin too.

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And, you know, like there are some progressive people or more lefty

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aligned people who still like Bitcoin.

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Now, you know, I find that kind of funny in a way, but, you know, in some ways,

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they've found their own reason to be pro Bitcoin, whether that's, you know, it

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serves their own ideological motives or purposes, and so be it, you know, more

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people are going to adopt this thing, and that's just the way it's going to go.

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yeah, I love, like the leftists are even better than us at promoting the thing.

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Like Christine Lagarde's, uh, if there is an escape hatch

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that, that hatch will be used.

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That's like the best.

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tagline for Bitcoin ever.

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It's so powerful.

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She is absolutely 100 percent right.

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We will use the escape hatch.

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Yeah, that's right.

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I think there's just going to be more and more people who slowly

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wake up to this, and for a lot of people, it just takes time.

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Like, I have been shouting, and I've said this, you know, I've

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been shouting about Bitcoin from the rooftops since early 2013.

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And in those days, people barely even knew the term fiat money, or they

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barely, you know, if you tried to explain the Cantillon effect to them, at that

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point, it would have been like, what language are you speaking here, mate?

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And so, now, in, you know, in just the recent months, we have people like

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Javier Millet explaining Cantillon Effect on television to everyday people.

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So, you know, it just takes time, it takes repetition, and over time, people

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just start to realize, oh wait, it's just You know, this is just the new way.

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And it's, you know, it's like, imagine trying to tell people to

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type in their credit card details on the internet in 1998 or 1997.

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It would have been like, what?

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You want me to?

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No way.

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And nowadays, it's very, everybody does that.

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Like, most people, you know.

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Of course, those of us Bitcoiners like to use Bitcoin where possible,

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but, uh, you know, that's, that's the reality of the world.

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It's just become So much more ingrained into society because

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that's just what everybody does.

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And so therefore, I'm looking at it when, you know, the Jamie Diamonds

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of the world or Christine Lagarde of the world try to discredit Bitcoin or

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try to pooh pooh it and play it down.

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They're trying to make it seem uncool or not the done thing.

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Obviously on the other side of that, you've got people like us and others

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out there who are just saying no.

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Like, yeah, you should use Bitcoin.

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It's a better technology.

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Just upgrade your money.

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It's cooler.

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It's better.

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It's just a It's simply a better technology.

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Why wouldn't you use it?

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And over time, I believe the Bitcoin people will win out.

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Yeah, the incentives are too strong, I guess.

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Like, I, I, this is one, one of the things like deep diving into, um,

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Austrian economics and praxeology did for me is, is inject this great sense

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of optimism, still, it's, the first thing is that you see everything that's

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wrong with the world, and you think it's horrible, but the second thing is

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like, when you really deep dive into it, you see how powerful the free market

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really is, and that it really does win over time, like, totalitarianism

234
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is unsustainable, it doesn't work,

235
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Yeah.

236
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Well, I sort of go back and forth on this.

237
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Like, let me explain my view.

238
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I think there are, we have to be careful, right?

239
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Because there are some people who sort of take an overly rosy view, right?

240
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They just think the future will always just be better than it is today.

241
00:12:45,324 --> 00:12:47,254
But that's not really how history has worked, right?

242
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There have been periods of, you know, the Dark Ages or there have been times where

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You know, things were bad for a long time because people had wrong ideas about the

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world and it took sort of a shift and it mattered what ideas people believed in.

245
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To your point, though, it is certainly true that, uh, it's, it's remarkable

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that given the level of socialism and governmental control that there still

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is Some semblance of free markets around the world, and that production

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is continuing, and you know, we are living mostly better lives than let's

249
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say a hundred years ago, 150 years ago.

250
00:13:22,479 --> 00:13:26,894
We are still living better lives, so it's kind of You know, backward, put it

251
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this way, progress is not inevitable, like backwards, you know, going backwards

252
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is possible, you know, but at the same time, I'm still very optimistic that

253
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we have something now, like, and for me, when I first became a libertarian,

254
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because I became a libertarian before Bitcoin existed, right, and so, you

255
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I, I think a lot of libertarian people have this maybe a black pill moment.

256
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They're sort of like, oh wow, the government is just so powerful and

257
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there's so few libertarians who are speaking out against this, that it's

258
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kind of hopeless, that I might as well just kind of live my life, I'll

259
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just live a double life, you know?

260
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But now it gives us hope with Bitcoin.

261
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That's what I mean, like, uh, because that's the first, that's the first

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00:14:07,969 --> 00:14:13,429
instinct, to be blackpilled, and like, holy shit, this is horrible, theft is

263
00:14:13,429 --> 00:14:18,379
fucking everywhere, every country has an inflationary currency, every country

264
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has taxes, it's absolutely horrible, there's no transaction going on except

265
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for black market transactions, not even those are safe if you're dealing with

266
00:14:26,939 --> 00:14:28,789
fiat currency, everything has a, you know?

267
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leeching, third party, stealing value from people.

268
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It's horrible.

269
00:14:33,189 --> 00:14:37,249
Like, that's the first thing, but the thing that Deep Dive did for me is like,

270
00:14:37,549 --> 00:14:42,349
inject a bit of optimism into that, because despite all that, as you say,

271
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we still have production and stuff.

272
00:14:44,239 --> 00:14:48,719
So I'm curious, like, what led you down the libertarianism

273
00:14:48,729 --> 00:14:49,819
rabbit hole in the first place?

274
00:14:49,869 --> 00:14:54,539
Like, how were you so early to this, to Bitcoin, and how, like,

275
00:14:54,579 --> 00:14:57,129
what were the motivation for starting the pod and everything?

276
00:14:57,139 --> 00:14:58,519
Give us the backstory, please.

277
00:14:58,520 --> 00:14:59,041
Yeah, sure.

278
00:14:59,051 --> 00:15:05,176
Okay, so the libertarian story for me was, I was Let's say 14, 15, and I would,

279
00:15:05,226 --> 00:15:09,126
back then, uh, there's a thing called IRC, so for the younger listeners, that's

280
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called Internet Relay Chat, and that's kind of like, think of it like Slack,

281
00:15:14,266 --> 00:15:18,076
but before Slack existed, alright, and there's like, it was more like open chat

282
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channels that people could go on, right, so I would go on some of these, uh, and

283
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I'm, you know, I'm 35 now, I'm almost 36, so this is, you know, 20 years ago,

284
00:15:26,376 --> 00:15:29,996
uh, and so I would go on this Australian politics channel, and a guy in there

285
00:15:29,996 --> 00:15:32,176
kept linking to MisesDaily articles.

286
00:15:32,596 --> 00:15:36,156
And at the time I thought it was kind of a crazy idea, like how the hell would

287
00:15:36,156 --> 00:15:40,716
this work, but over time it actually started to dawn on me that actually what

288
00:15:40,716 --> 00:15:44,086
they were writing in these Mises Daily articles made a lot more sense than

289
00:15:44,086 --> 00:15:45,236
what they were teaching me at school.

290
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And so then eventually I started going down the Austrian economics and

291
00:15:49,716 --> 00:15:53,836
libertarian rabbit hole from there, and so I would say I probably called myself

292
00:15:53,836 --> 00:15:56,051
a libertarian, let's say, around 16, 17.

293
00:15:56,351 --> 00:15:59,681
I would've called myself, I would've believed that, let's say at least

294
00:15:59,681 --> 00:16:04,601
philosophically, that anco capitalism is the way, probably around age 18 or 19.

295
00:16:05,341 --> 00:16:11,941
And so from then on, I just, I was, I was holding libertarian ANCO capitalist views.

296
00:16:11,941 --> 00:16:16,351
And so around that time also, Ron Paul's campaigns were sort of getting bigger.

297
00:16:17,691 --> 00:16:22,191
Uh, he had the 2008 campaign and the 2012 presidential campaign.

298
00:16:22,526 --> 00:16:28,516
Um, and so, yeah, so I was, you know, a free market guy, and then, in terms

299
00:16:28,516 --> 00:16:33,456
of, you know, Bitcoin, I was, I grew up in Sydney, in Australia, so I didn't

300
00:16:33,466 --> 00:16:36,526
have as much exposure to, let's say, the American libertarian scene, other

301
00:16:36,526 --> 00:16:42,496
than some online exposure, and so, I think I basically stumbled across an

302
00:16:42,496 --> 00:16:48,506
article in December 2012, and I remember, I was, Uh, on a family trip, um, back

303
00:16:48,506 --> 00:16:51,426
in Sri Lanka, I've, I was born in Sri Lanka, I have family from there, so we

304
00:16:51,426 --> 00:16:55,856
were on a, just a family holiday, and I remember it was, I think, December 2012.

305
00:16:57,076 --> 00:17:01,416
I sort of stumbled across an article that explained Bitcoin in a real

306
00:17:02,266 --> 00:17:06,126
explanation, rather than just sort of these kind of random news headlines

307
00:17:06,126 --> 00:17:07,766
that I had ignored up until then, right?

308
00:17:07,766 --> 00:17:11,416
I might have, it might have sort of briefly flashed across my virtual

309
00:17:11,416 --> 00:17:15,486
desk in a sense of seeing, you know, maybe a slash dot article headline or

310
00:17:15,486 --> 00:17:18,936
something from, I don't know, 2011, 2012, but I disregarded it, right?

311
00:17:18,936 --> 00:17:22,191
Because in those days, I just kind of thought, oh, it's just like You know,

312
00:17:22,201 --> 00:17:25,931
World of Warcraft gold, or some kind of in game money, it's not a real thing,

313
00:17:26,131 --> 00:17:30,051
but this article I read in December 2012 made it real for me, it was like, whoa,

314
00:17:30,061 --> 00:17:33,361
no, actually, this thing can challenge central banks, and it could, you know,

315
00:17:33,601 --> 00:17:37,751
do all these things, like, back in those days, people spoke about remittance in

316
00:17:37,751 --> 00:17:41,501
those cases, and also just, you know, the general kind of idea of having a free

317
00:17:41,501 --> 00:17:45,751
market money that's outside the control of any state or any corporation, and

318
00:17:45,751 --> 00:17:50,241
so, that was my real moment, and at that point, I just, you I was shouting from

319
00:17:50,251 --> 00:17:54,171
the rooftops, telling anyone I could, you know, telling anyone and everyone.

320
00:17:54,171 --> 00:17:57,421
I would post on my social media accounts and I would write about it.

321
00:17:57,721 --> 00:18:00,481
I even went to some Bitcoin meetups and things in Sydney.

322
00:18:00,481 --> 00:18:03,631
I spoke at an early Bitcoin conference in Melbourne in 2014.

323
00:18:04,111 --> 00:18:09,711
Fun fact, um Craig Wright was actually a speaker also at that conference in 2014

324
00:18:09,741 --> 00:18:14,251
in Melbourne, um, and he had the, yeah, and I, I believe, I remember seeing him

325
00:18:14,251 --> 00:18:17,681
up on stage, now this is before the kind of the big controversy stuff had happened,

326
00:18:18,171 --> 00:18:23,271
and so, he was this really overconfident, arrogant guy, and I was kind of like,

327
00:18:23,321 --> 00:18:27,141
I don't really, yeah, like, yeah, I didn't really know a lot about the guy,

328
00:18:27,191 --> 00:18:30,471
because, again, this is pre the sort of big controversy stuff happening, you

329
00:18:30,721 --> 00:18:31,891
you became Craig Wrong.

330
00:18:33,031 --> 00:18:38,491
Yeah, so, uh, yeah, so then I remember seeing that and yeah, I mean, so I, I

331
00:18:38,491 --> 00:18:43,041
was, I would go to some of those Bitcoin meetups in Sydney in like 2013, 2014

332
00:18:43,041 --> 00:18:49,191
days, but there was a lot of like TA and trading people and it just, and yeah, it

333
00:18:49,191 --> 00:18:50,861
just kind of was a bit off putting for me.

334
00:18:51,471 --> 00:18:52,201
In those days.

335
00:18:52,221 --> 00:18:55,451
Now, I was still writing about it and telling people that I could

336
00:18:55,531 --> 00:18:57,001
just in my personal social media.

337
00:18:57,251 --> 00:18:59,911
You know, there are people to this day who sort of remember that and

338
00:19:00,261 --> 00:19:02,961
saying, Oh, hey, thanks for telling me about that stuff back in those days.

339
00:19:03,373 --> 00:19:09,003
uh, but then, yeah, I guess if we move forward to Uh, the 2017 cycle,

340
00:19:09,003 --> 00:19:11,703
I was getting a bit annoyed by all the garbage out there, right, all

341
00:19:11,713 --> 00:19:15,843
the shitcoins and shitcoin podcasting and blockchain this, blockchain that.

342
00:19:15,853 --> 00:19:19,933
It was just very frustrating to me and so it sort of culminated

343
00:19:19,943 --> 00:19:22,018
in me starting my podcast in 2018.

344
00:19:22,418 --> 00:19:27,278
Uh, and that was really, the motivation for that was just simply that I was

345
00:19:27,278 --> 00:19:30,308
so frustrated with all the shitcoining and blockchaining going on out there.

346
00:19:30,558 --> 00:19:33,678
Right, nowadays there's so much Bitcoin material out there, but at

347
00:19:33,678 --> 00:19:38,318
that time there wasn't a lot of Bitcoin only podcast material in those days.

348
00:19:38,528 --> 00:19:40,528
In those days you could pretty much count them on one hand,

349
00:19:40,528 --> 00:19:44,088
right, you had Noted Podcast and TFTC and that was just about it.

350
00:19:44,488 --> 00:19:48,858
And so, I was starting the podcast as just something that I wanted to exist.

351
00:19:49,688 --> 00:19:52,788
And I was scratching my own itch and I was doing something that very few

352
00:19:52,788 --> 00:19:54,278
other people were doing at that time.

353
00:19:54,598 --> 00:19:58,948
Uh, and then it, you know, thankfully it luckily took off

354
00:19:58,948 --> 00:20:02,178
and I got enough listeners to make it a sustainable thing, right?

355
00:20:02,178 --> 00:20:04,378
When I started it, it was just a labor of love.

356
00:20:04,378 --> 00:20:08,198
I had no intent to make it my job to do it professionally.

357
00:20:08,198 --> 00:20:13,188
It was just a labor of love that I would do basically in my free

358
00:20:13,188 --> 00:20:15,298
time outside of my fiat job.

359
00:20:15,573 --> 00:20:18,483
And so yeah, that's kind of the, the story.

360
00:20:19,033 --> 00:20:19,373
Beautiful.

361
00:20:20,113 --> 00:20:26,593
I mean, uh, I think we met, first time we met in person was in Riga 2019, I think.

362
00:20:27,333 --> 00:20:27,783
You were there,

363
00:20:28,013 --> 00:20:28,433
Oh, maybe.

364
00:20:28,433 --> 00:20:28,673
Yeah.

365
00:20:28,673 --> 00:20:29,183
I'm not sure.

366
00:20:29,183 --> 00:20:29,523
Yeah.

367
00:20:29,583 --> 00:20:34,453
Yeah, so, so, uh, and I was aware of the podcast then, so then it

368
00:20:34,523 --> 00:20:35,973
had been going for a year, I guess.

369
00:20:36,753 --> 00:20:37,023
Yeah.

370
00:20:37,023 --> 00:20:37,383
Roughly.

371
00:20:37,383 --> 00:20:37,673
Yeah.

372
00:20:37,673 --> 00:20:37,893
Yeah.

373
00:20:37,893 --> 00:20:40,493
That was when I, and that was when I first started going to, let's

374
00:20:40,493 --> 00:20:43,413
say the international scene in 2019 was when I started going to some

375
00:20:43,413 --> 00:20:45,213
of the conferences internationally.

376
00:20:45,473 --> 00:20:49,763
Whereas prior to that, I'd only been sort of around the Australian Bitcoin

377
00:20:49,763 --> 00:20:52,613
meetups and, you know, a conference here and there sort of thing.

378
00:20:52,693 --> 00:20:53,903
Um, and so, yeah.

379
00:20:54,353 --> 00:20:59,753
Yeah, 2019 was when I went to Bitcoin 2019 in San Francisco,

380
00:21:00,063 --> 00:21:05,053
uh, Riga, the honey badger one, and also the Lightning Conference.

381
00:21:05,083 --> 00:21:08,053
I was the emcee of the Lightning Conference in Berlin, uh,

382
00:21:08,323 --> 00:21:09,953
around October 2019 or so.

383
00:21:10,173 --> 00:21:11,593
So it was me and Des Dickerson,

384
00:21:11,970 --> 00:21:14,140
Yeah, I know Hodlonaut went to that one.

385
00:21:14,730 --> 00:21:17,680
I didn't go to that one, but uh, he was there, I know.

386
00:21:18,100 --> 00:21:24,250
Uh, so like, I, like, uh, you were a bit earlier than me, but

387
00:21:24,350 --> 00:21:25,930
conference wise a bit similar.

388
00:21:25,930 --> 00:21:29,660
I, I went to like, the first crypto conference I went to

389
00:21:29,660 --> 00:21:31,230
was in 2017 in Stockholm.

390
00:21:32,370 --> 00:21:33,570
It was called Bloxpo.

391
00:21:34,375 --> 00:21:40,345
And I was there mainly to see Richard Hart, because back then Richard

392
00:21:40,345 --> 00:21:42,715
Hart was a, a hardcore maxi, right?

393
00:21:42,755 --> 00:21:48,345
He was, he was fighting for Bitcoin and he was well spoken and an intelligent guy as

394
00:21:48,345 --> 00:21:55,200
he is, like, uh, uh, and that same night, he, he told me that he was going to To,

395
00:21:55,270 --> 00:21:59,740
to, uh, start his own shitcoin, and that he wanted to, uh, he also wanted to buy

396
00:21:59,750 --> 00:22:02,250
Lambos and, and make money fast and stuff.

397
00:22:02,590 --> 00:22:05,190
Like, all these other people are doing it anyway, so why couldn't I?

398
00:22:05,870 --> 00:22:10,210
And I couldn't believe what I heard, and then he went off and did that,

399
00:22:10,450 --> 00:22:13,620
and screwed a lot of people over and bought some Gucci pyjamas.

400
00:22:14,110 --> 00:22:19,130
Like, uh, it's pretty ridiculous in hindsight, and, uh Yeah, I felt like the

401
00:22:19,140 --> 00:22:24,210
only, only Bitcoiner at the conference, which I found baffling, like everyone

402
00:22:24,210 --> 00:22:29,890
was there for crypto stuff and like, it seemed like a room with like a thousand

403
00:22:29,890 --> 00:22:37,075
people who, and they were all clueless, like really clueless about The economics

404
00:22:37,085 --> 00:22:41,115
of the whole thing, they're all in for the tech stuff, and like, Stockholm was

405
00:22:41,115 --> 00:22:48,715
very much a, you know, startup scene, sort of, they had sort of a, they wanted

406
00:22:48,725 --> 00:22:53,545
to be Silicon Valley, and that's why the crypto scene was big there, and

407
00:22:54,205 --> 00:22:56,295
still is to a certain extent, I mean.

408
00:22:56,870 --> 00:23:01,470
All the bus, all the crypto boys are AI experts at this point

409
00:23:01,470 --> 00:23:03,300
instead of crypto experts, I guess.

410
00:23:03,690 --> 00:23:05,380
But, but still, uh, yeah.

411
00:23:05,870 --> 00:23:08,100
The move fast and break things attitude.

412
00:23:09,490 --> 00:23:11,740
Yeah, this is a lonely, lonely place to be.

413
00:23:12,730 --> 00:23:16,600
Yeah, I mean, it definitely can feel lonely, like sometimes even, you know,

414
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,730
in some of those earlier Bitcoin meetups, you kind of meet people who are just into

415
00:23:19,730 --> 00:23:24,089
kind of like TA aspects of it and not really Not really about the sound money

416
00:23:24,099 --> 00:23:30,094
vision, let's say, whereas I would say from 2017 18 onwards This kind of sound

417
00:23:30,094 --> 00:23:34,114
money vision of Bitcoin became a lot more prominent, right, because when I

418
00:23:34,114 --> 00:23:37,634
sort of first came into Bitcoin in 2013 days, it just wasn't that prominent.

419
00:23:37,644 --> 00:23:40,484
There were some people, there were people like Tour de Meester, back in those

420
00:23:40,484 --> 00:23:45,134
days, Trace Mayer, uh, the Nakamoto Institute boys like Bitstein and Pierre,

421
00:23:45,288 --> 00:23:49,271
there just wasn't as much focus on that, and I think there was a lot of other

422
00:23:49,301 --> 00:23:55,461
kind of random experimentation and just different ideas, and I think 2017 18

423
00:23:55,461 --> 00:23:59,591
onwards, it sort of became a lot more clear to people, this kind of sound

424
00:23:59,591 --> 00:24:02,731
money, hodling, saving sort of vision.

425
00:24:02,971 --> 00:24:05,691
Um, but of course there was still like a big clash, you know, in those

426
00:24:05,691 --> 00:24:09,736
days of like, B cashers and You know, small blockers, or not, you know,

427
00:24:09,736 --> 00:24:11,426
not raising the block size side.

428
00:24:11,702 --> 00:24:16,912
and so, you know, that, that's kind of the story, I guess, of how it's sort

429
00:24:16,912 --> 00:24:18,592
of shifted and evolved over the years.

430
00:24:18,942 --> 00:24:20,432
At least the narratives around Bitcoin.

431
00:24:21,057 --> 00:24:24,397
Yeah, I guess Safedin and the Bitcoin standard played a huge

432
00:24:24,407 --> 00:24:29,097
part there in like tilting it towards the sound money narrative.

433
00:24:29,732 --> 00:24:30,482
Right, yeah.

434
00:24:31,165 --> 00:24:34,785
Alright, you might have noticed that we've recently partnered with AmberApp.

435
00:24:35,075 --> 00:24:39,405
After our episode with Izzy, their CEO, and our close friend, we knew we

436
00:24:39,405 --> 00:24:42,810
would have to partner with them in some way, If you haven't seen our episode

437
00:24:42,810 --> 00:24:46,900
with Izzy, definitely go check it out, you'll see why it's such a great fit,

438
00:24:47,150 --> 00:24:51,080
and honestly, they're following the orange glowing light like Izzy always

439
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:55,170
says, and that's exactly what we try to do here at the Freedom Footprint Show.

440
00:24:55,494 --> 00:24:57,834
The big news about AmberApp is that they're going to be

441
00:24:57,834 --> 00:24:59,644
launching their version 2.

442
00:24:59,860 --> 00:25:03,370
I've seen some of the screenshots and it looks fantastic.

443
00:25:03,665 --> 00:25:07,476
They're going to be including a non custodial on chain wallet, an

444
00:25:07,496 --> 00:25:11,748
anonymous lightning wallet, a fiat wallet, And finally, it's going

445
00:25:11,748 --> 00:25:13,088
to be an exchange, of course.

446
00:25:13,328 --> 00:25:16,230
it's going to be just this super app,  They're also going

447
00:25:16,230 --> 00:25:17,580
to be launching globally.

448
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Everyone's going to be able to use it.

449
00:25:19,390 --> 00:25:21,120
we're really excited about all that.

450
00:25:21,250 --> 00:25:23,890
Stay tuned with us and you'll hear all about it.

451
00:25:24,090 --> 00:25:26,440
And for now, check out their website, amber.

452
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app and the episode with Izzy to find out more.

453
00:25:29,952 --> 00:25:34,682
So in your mind, what are some of the most common misconceptions

454
00:25:34,742 --> 00:25:36,542
about economics that people have?

455
00:25:36,682 --> 00:25:38,782
Like, what are they missing?

456
00:25:40,177 --> 00:25:44,677
I think a lot of people People have not really been reasoned into

457
00:25:44,997 --> 00:25:46,237
the positions they're in, right?

458
00:25:46,237 --> 00:25:51,107
They just sort of see a headline, they might hear some random talking head, some

459
00:25:51,127 --> 00:25:55,637
economist on the news who may be more accurately described as a statistician

460
00:25:55,637 --> 00:25:59,947
or a talking head or a propagandist, and so in some cases they are just

461
00:25:59,957 --> 00:26:03,717
propagandists for the central bank or the state, or in other cases they are

462
00:26:03,787 --> 00:26:06,977
more just like a statistician who works for a private company trying to give you

463
00:26:06,977 --> 00:26:12,178
like Some sort of guess or reasoning, uh, at what's gonna happen, right?

464
00:26:12,178 --> 00:26:14,638
And some of this stuff is like, you know, macro quote unquote

465
00:26:14,668 --> 00:26:16,828
macro, macro talking heads.

466
00:26:16,833 --> 00:26:21,328
Because the funny thing is some of this macro content, it's so, so popular, right?

467
00:26:21,328 --> 00:26:22,918
Like macro, whatever, but.

468
00:26:24,038 --> 00:26:27,538
Realistically, are there actually people who have really, truly made good

469
00:26:27,538 --> 00:26:31,348
predictions in the world of quote unquote macroeconomics, when really there's just

470
00:26:31,348 --> 00:26:33,698
so many different things that can go wrong, there's so many different things

471
00:26:33,698 --> 00:26:36,908
that can happen, there's just a million different variables, whether it's just,

472
00:26:37,098 --> 00:26:42,088
you know, interest rates here, or a war there, or a, you know, the unemployment

473
00:26:42,088 --> 00:26:46,348
rate here, or the regulations in this particular country versus the deregulation

474
00:26:46,348 --> 00:26:50,363
in some other country, Versus, you know, a thousand other factors and

475
00:26:50,363 --> 00:26:55,391
things that could happen, so I think just in general, predicting things at a

476
00:26:55,391 --> 00:26:58,181
quote unquote macro is just difficult.

477
00:26:58,231 --> 00:27:02,581
I think if you're looking more at specific policies, that's where you can

478
00:27:02,581 --> 00:27:05,951
start to understand more about, okay, what, how should we reason about this.

479
00:27:06,521 --> 00:27:11,591
Conclusion, whether it's, you know, the classic minimum wage laws or different

480
00:27:11,881 --> 00:27:15,991
government regulations that relate to price controls, things like this, I

481
00:27:16,001 --> 00:27:21,001
think those are, you know, that's what the normal, that's what like a normie

482
00:27:21,001 --> 00:27:22,421
person thinks is economics, right?

483
00:27:22,421 --> 00:27:26,061
They're just thinking, oh, it's just like, you know, The guy on the financial

484
00:27:26,061 --> 00:27:29,321
TV show who thinks this is what's going to happen to interest rates in six months

485
00:27:29,321 --> 00:27:34,531
from now, that's sort of the common perception, um, as opposed to a more

486
00:27:34,561 --> 00:27:40,851
Austrian praxeological understanding or appreciation for economics and

487
00:27:40,991 --> 00:27:45,486
really what are we doing here, what is the actual purpose of this What

488
00:27:45,486 --> 00:27:48,506
is the way of reasoning that we use?

489
00:27:48,726 --> 00:27:51,026
Uh, so that's, you know, that's one big thing.

490
00:27:51,336 --> 00:27:54,826
A lot of people are under this perception, they're under this misguided

491
00:27:54,996 --> 00:27:59,526
idea that the money supply has to expand for the economy to grow, right?

492
00:27:59,526 --> 00:28:02,226
In their mind, that's, you know, that's what a lot of people think.

493
00:28:02,316 --> 00:28:05,366
Or they might think that, let's say, GDP needs to go up.

494
00:28:05,606 --> 00:28:09,746
And they might have this kind of, Keynesian, neoclassical idea that just,

495
00:28:09,776 --> 00:28:15,066
oh, the GDP number needs to go up when you aren't sort of disaggregating these

496
00:28:15,066 --> 00:28:18,806
high level aggregates and understanding what's going on at the individual level,

497
00:28:18,836 --> 00:28:23,006
what's really causing and driving some of these different, uh, phenomena.

498
00:28:23,146 --> 00:28:26,696
And so that's really where Austrian economics shines.

499
00:28:27,066 --> 00:28:32,956
At looking more deeply at the individual level and the trying to at least ask

500
00:28:32,996 --> 00:28:36,826
the question, why is this person doing this as opposed to just looking at

501
00:28:36,826 --> 00:28:41,536
these macroeconomic aggregates of, oh, capital is just this one big blob.

502
00:28:41,816 --> 00:28:46,826
It's not this sort of differentiated process, this sort of tapestry of, you

503
00:28:46,826 --> 00:28:48,676
know, different stages of production.

504
00:28:48,921 --> 00:28:54,821
And different markets for different goods that are sort of pricing in

505
00:28:54,831 --> 00:28:59,371
this particular product versus that service because, you know, for this

506
00:28:59,371 --> 00:29:02,391
reason there was a supply shock in this thing and not that other thing.

507
00:29:02,621 --> 00:29:08,351
It's just a much more, I think, accurate way of trying to assess the world

508
00:29:08,371 --> 00:29:09,601
and understand what's going on there.

509
00:29:10,196 --> 00:29:15,406
I, I love the, the, the, the pure ethics side of it, like, like, and the simple

510
00:29:15,416 --> 00:29:20,056
questions that the thing that Hoppe does a lot, like, like forcing, forcing

511
00:29:20,056 --> 00:29:25,596
people to ask themselves the really basic questions, like, why would anyone ever

512
00:29:25,606 --> 00:29:28,416
want anyone else to have fewer options?

513
00:29:29,256 --> 00:29:36,036
Which is, like, and by just simply asking that question, you debunk the notion of

514
00:29:36,046 --> 00:29:40,706
taxes as being a good thing at all, like, how can it ever lead to more options?

515
00:29:41,196 --> 00:29:44,926
And, or, why do people in the public sector pay taxes?

516
00:29:44,976 --> 00:29:47,496
That's one of my favorites, because it's so obvious when

517
00:29:47,496 --> 00:29:48,936
you think about it, like, why?

518
00:29:49,351 --> 00:29:52,001
Yeah, it reminds me of that meme, I don't know if you've seen it, it's not a very

519
00:29:52,001 --> 00:29:56,281
common meme, but there's like a bunch of guys trying to push like a pickup truck.

520
00:29:56,751 --> 00:30:01,151
And the funny thing is, there's like a guy who's in the back tray of the truck,

521
00:30:01,181 --> 00:30:05,661
trying to push the front of the truck, but he's on the truck, and he thinks he's, you

522
00:30:05,661 --> 00:30:09,201
know, he thinks he's pushing it forward, that's like public sector workers, right,

523
00:30:09,316 --> 00:30:09,916
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

524
00:30:10,031 --> 00:30:13,041
kind of, they're in the truck already, and everyone else, it's the private

525
00:30:13,041 --> 00:30:16,951
sector that's actually pushing the truck forward, uh, and so, yeah, but

526
00:30:17,311 --> 00:30:23,661
fundamentally, Uh, it, it, it does come down to this mutual assurance that we have

527
00:30:23,661 --> 00:30:25,271
when there's voluntary exchange, right?

528
00:30:25,271 --> 00:30:27,951
You know that both parties believe they're being made better off.

529
00:30:28,201 --> 00:30:33,381
Of course, really, a lot of economics in the, you know, quote unquote mainstream

530
00:30:33,381 --> 00:30:38,331
economics today It's not really for the sake of trying to understand,

531
00:30:38,331 --> 00:30:43,511
it's almost like it got politically popular because it helps justify

532
00:30:44,081 --> 00:30:46,211
how politicians would like to act.

533
00:30:46,481 --> 00:30:52,291
And so then, I think that just drove the popularization of this sort of

534
00:30:52,321 --> 00:30:58,241
court jester economics, fake economics that helps justify, you know, this

535
00:30:58,241 --> 00:31:03,391
particular government rule or law or new government department or program that

536
00:31:03,461 --> 00:31:03,901
really just

537
00:31:03,986 --> 00:31:04,636
in general,

538
00:31:04,926 --> 00:31:08,676
Yeah, it just helps quote unquote justify these things, when really there's not a

539
00:31:08,676 --> 00:31:11,436
good justification, and we're just stuck.

540
00:31:12,296 --> 00:31:17,266
In this world where people believe in the necessity of the state and the necessity

541
00:31:17,266 --> 00:31:20,596
of these different government programs, it would be like if the government

542
00:31:20,626 --> 00:31:24,976
taught our children how to walk, uh, pretty soon people would be like, Oh no!

543
00:31:25,336 --> 00:31:27,626
If there was no government teaching our children how to walk, how would

544
00:31:27,626 --> 00:31:28,956
they learn how to walk, right?

545
00:31:29,066 --> 00:31:29,566
yeah, yeah.

546
00:31:30,186 --> 00:31:34,926
And it's so, it's like, it's self reinforcing, because the more, the

547
00:31:34,926 --> 00:31:37,946
more taxes you pay, the more, or the more inflation there is, the bigger

548
00:31:37,946 --> 00:31:41,564
the government and the bigger their influence, and the bigger their influence,

549
00:31:41,604 --> 00:31:45,374
the more taxes they can, the more they can steal from you, basically.

550
00:31:45,394 --> 00:31:48,694
So, so like, it's a very uphill battle.

551
00:31:49,189 --> 00:31:52,549
I'm just glad that there are bitcoiners everywhere, because when I travel

552
00:31:52,549 --> 00:31:56,129
around the world and I go to meetups and stuff, even in smaller places,

553
00:31:56,129 --> 00:32:00,599
the, the thing that baffles me is like, Oh, the first thing is, holy shit,

554
00:32:00,619 --> 00:32:02,599
we're so early, there's so few of us.

555
00:32:03,209 --> 00:32:07,819
But the second thought is, is the, the big one, like, but hang

556
00:32:07,819 --> 00:32:09,049
on a minute, we're everywhere.

557
00:32:09,089 --> 00:32:10,179
We're absolutely everywhere.

558
00:32:10,229 --> 00:32:15,969
Every, every single town, every single city of the world has a A handful of

559
00:32:15,969 --> 00:32:18,049
bitcoiners just doing their thing.

560
00:32:18,497 --> 00:32:19,397
Yeah, that's right.

561
00:32:19,397 --> 00:32:21,537
I think I've definitely noticed that in my travels.

562
00:32:22,407 --> 00:32:24,847
You know, I've met Bitcoiners from all around the world, and

563
00:32:24,847 --> 00:32:28,927
it's funny that there's this, uh Network, let's say, of, you know,

564
00:32:28,997 --> 00:32:30,717
of, uh, hodlers around the world.

565
00:32:30,737 --> 00:32:36,422
Now, to be clear, I think one thing that's gonna become Difficult as Bitcoin grows

566
00:32:36,882 --> 00:32:39,622
is that you can't just trust someone just because they're a Bitcoiner, right.

567
00:32:39,642 --> 00:32:42,522
Like I think that's an important thing that, uh, you know, people

568
00:32:42,522 --> 00:32:45,192
can sort of fall into this trap of thinking, Oh, I'm a Bitcoiner.

569
00:32:45,202 --> 00:32:46,092
This other guy's a Bitcoiner.

570
00:32:46,102 --> 00:32:47,202
We can trust each other, right?

571
00:32:47,412 --> 00:32:48,182
No, I don't.

572
00:32:48,232 --> 00:32:52,972
I think you've got to be wary about that because, uh, people

573
00:32:52,972 --> 00:32:54,282
will try to affinity scam.

574
00:32:54,352 --> 00:32:59,367
And yes, historically, the big affinity scam has been this kind of I like Bitcoin,

575
00:32:59,377 --> 00:33:03,907
buy my shitcoin, or this kind of crypto, these crypto people who constantly sort

576
00:33:03,907 --> 00:33:08,887
of ride the coattails of Bitcoin, but going forward there'll be, you know,

577
00:33:08,897 --> 00:33:11,377
scams and Bitcoin, Bitcoin scams.

578
00:33:11,407 --> 00:33:13,567
And to be clear, this is not a new thing, right?

579
00:33:13,567 --> 00:33:15,897
If you went back and looked at the BitcoinTalk forums in the early

580
00:33:15,897 --> 00:33:18,332
days, 2010, 2011, 2012, whatever.

581
00:33:19,002 --> 00:33:20,402
There were scammers then too, right?

582
00:33:20,402 --> 00:33:25,942
There was like early rugs, custodial wallets that rugged, or the infamous

583
00:33:25,942 --> 00:33:30,302
Butterfly Labs kind of two weeks TM, uh, you know, there have been

584
00:33:30,302 --> 00:33:33,992
scams in the Bitcoin world too, and so it's important to you.

585
00:33:34,767 --> 00:33:38,877
Be wary, uh, and you know, not just trust someone just 'cause they're quote

586
00:33:38,877 --> 00:33:40,107
unquote, just 'cause they're a Bitcoin.

587
00:33:40,577 --> 00:33:46,477
Absolutely, like, I find the trust thing to be so fascinating because it's

588
00:33:46,477 --> 00:33:50,447
so depressing, like, I remember that as one of the most depressing parts of

589
00:33:50,457 --> 00:33:56,977
this crypto conference I talked about, like, how many, the percentage of

590
00:33:56,977 --> 00:34:02,697
scammers, because there were almost All scammers, like, that people are so, so,

591
00:34:03,167 --> 00:34:07,197
you know, they want the free lunch so badly, so they're willing to do that,

592
00:34:07,197 --> 00:34:08,827
that was a very depressing insight.

593
00:34:09,247 --> 00:34:12,927
I think one thing I would add to that is that some of these Shitcoin events,

594
00:34:13,707 --> 00:34:17,457
what they do is they almost price themselves out of being able to be honest.

595
00:34:17,457 --> 00:34:17,697
Right?

596
00:34:17,697 --> 00:34:18,537
So what they do is they might.

597
00:34:19,582 --> 00:34:23,272
Raised the price of either the tickets or for the sponsor booths and things

598
00:34:23,272 --> 00:34:27,622
like that so high that the only people who can afford to pay are shitcoin

599
00:34:27,622 --> 00:34:28,782
people who can print their own money.

600
00:34:29,012 --> 00:34:32,122
And so, it's almost like a negative self selection effect, right?

601
00:34:32,122 --> 00:34:36,172
It's like, you've, they've made it so that the only people you see up

602
00:34:36,172 --> 00:34:39,082
on that stage are people who have quote unquote, pay to play, right?

603
00:34:39,082 --> 00:34:41,592
Like, it's become like a pay to play shillfest, and that's what you see

604
00:34:41,592 --> 00:34:43,122
in some of these shitcoin events.

605
00:34:43,482 --> 00:34:46,492
And so, you know, and that can happen even, you know,

606
00:34:46,502 --> 00:34:47,682
in Bitcoin land too, right?

607
00:34:47,682 --> 00:34:51,082
You just, again, it's just because someone's a Bitcoiner or just someone's

608
00:34:51,112 --> 00:34:55,122
like into these, into crypto, and maybe they claim to be a libertarian or

609
00:34:55,132 --> 00:34:58,592
they sort of talk a little bit vaguely about libertarian ideas, doesn't mean

610
00:34:58,592 --> 00:35:00,852
they're actually a libertarian or doesn't mean they're actually a good,

611
00:35:00,872 --> 00:35:02,602
upstanding, honest, moral person.

612
00:35:02,862 --> 00:35:05,582
And so that's just the hard reality of it.

613
00:35:05,632 --> 00:35:09,092
Uh, now, yes, obviously I believe Bitcoin is going to grow and that

614
00:35:09,092 --> 00:35:10,302
will be a good thing for the world.

615
00:35:10,762 --> 00:35:13,372
But, uh, you know, you just have to always be wary, right?

616
00:35:13,382 --> 00:35:15,802
Everyone's a scammer, as, uh, my friend Bittstein says.

617
00:35:16,047 --> 00:35:19,567
Yeah, that article is legendary, and for good reason.

618
00:35:20,807 --> 00:35:25,847
So, the latest fad is, I like Bitcoin, buy my ETF, right?

619
00:35:27,422 --> 00:35:29,162
So, I mean, I go back and forth on this, right?

620
00:35:29,162 --> 00:35:32,242
Like, I think we should recognize the good and also recognize the bad, right?

621
00:35:32,242 --> 00:35:35,642
Like, now, obviously on the bad side, yeah, is there a potential risk that

622
00:35:35,642 --> 00:35:38,712
a lot of coins get centralized into Coinbase, which is doing the custody

623
00:35:38,712 --> 00:35:41,552
for, what, eight or nine of the eleven ETFs or something like that?

624
00:35:41,862 --> 00:35:46,943
Is there a risk that they try to do some kind of, contentious Negative or

625
00:35:46,943 --> 00:35:50,073
malicious change to Bitcoin in the future because a lot of the coins are there.

626
00:35:50,173 --> 00:35:51,443
Maybe, maybe that's possible.

627
00:35:51,623 --> 00:35:55,543
But on the positive side of the ledger, there's a whole bunch of new capital

628
00:35:55,543 --> 00:35:56,763
that's going to start flowing in.

629
00:35:57,063 --> 00:35:59,003
There'll be a lot of noobs who come into the, let's say,

630
00:35:59,003 --> 00:36:00,363
the top level of that funnel.

631
00:36:00,553 --> 00:36:04,913
And maybe they, they buy, you know, an ETF because they think that's what Bitcoin is.

632
00:36:04,913 --> 00:36:06,433
And then later they come to, you know, swan.

633
00:36:06,593 --> 00:36:10,413
com or somewhere and buy some real Bitcoin and withdraw it to their own custody.

634
00:36:10,733 --> 00:36:15,723
Um, and, you know, to some extent We can't stop this stuff, right?

635
00:36:15,723 --> 00:36:19,143
Like, this financialization of Bitcoin was inevitable.

636
00:36:19,153 --> 00:36:22,893
Like, we can't stop BlackRock and Fidelity and whoever else from

637
00:36:23,083 --> 00:36:24,753
offering these Bitcoin ETF products.

638
00:36:24,923 --> 00:36:27,793
Of course, I will encourage people to, you know, not your keys, not your coins.

639
00:36:28,070 --> 00:36:32,277
but, you know, there's, there's some positives also that there's gonna,

640
00:36:32,327 --> 00:36:36,227
there's gonna be more capital flowing in that will in turn raise the price

641
00:36:36,227 --> 00:36:38,837
of Bitcoin and bring a whole bunch, a new round of people in, right?

642
00:36:38,837 --> 00:36:42,137
Because no matter how many podcasts you and I do, The price is going to bring in

643
00:36:42,167 --> 00:36:45,937
a lot more people than whatever podcast we do, whatever articles or books that we

644
00:36:45,937 --> 00:36:47,787
write, it's going to bring in more people.

645
00:36:47,947 --> 00:36:51,727
And my hope is that, you know, the price brings in new people and then it's on

646
00:36:51,727 --> 00:36:54,827
us to try to teach them about sound money and liberty and things like this.

647
00:36:55,157 --> 00:37:00,042
Um, and so You know, uh, that's, that's kind of, I'm trying to be

648
00:37:00,052 --> 00:37:03,152
balanced on the view of the ETF, so at least that's how I'm seeing.

649
00:37:03,972 --> 00:37:08,502
Alright, so I know in the past that you've had some, uh, some problems with the

650
00:37:08,502 --> 00:37:13,222
everything divided by 21 million meme, so, so would you also disagree with the

651
00:37:13,222 --> 00:37:14,852
everything is good for bitcoin meme?

652
00:37:15,722 --> 00:37:16,212
Yes.

653
00:37:17,022 --> 00:37:20,962
I mean, I think it's become, it's a little bit of a, it's a meme, you

654
00:37:20,962 --> 00:37:23,522
know, it's like, it's not really a true, like, okay, it would be

655
00:37:23,522 --> 00:37:24,942
like saying, you know what I mean?

656
00:37:24,942 --> 00:37:28,022
It's kind of like, oh, imagine if someone cut off my left arm, yeah,

657
00:37:28,022 --> 00:37:31,712
sure, maybe my right arm becomes stronger, but am I stronger overall?

658
00:37:31,782 --> 00:37:32,212
No.

659
00:37:32,602 --> 00:37:32,872
Right?

660
00:37:32,872 --> 00:37:36,692
So obviously in a Bitcoin sense, imagine if I don't know, obviously we can make up

661
00:37:36,692 --> 00:37:40,392
extreme examples like, imagine the world blows up, that's obviously not good for

662
00:37:40,422 --> 00:37:47,032
Bitcoin, you know, or like, imagine, okay, even, yeah, yeah, or like Thanos comes

663
00:37:47,032 --> 00:37:51,592
and snaps the world away, I don't know, but, I mean, even more realistic, like,

664
00:37:51,857 --> 00:37:55,657
If, you know, there are some people who have this view of like, oh yeah, imagine

665
00:37:55,667 --> 00:37:59,367
if the government, like, banned Bitcoin in every country, that would be good because

666
00:37:59,367 --> 00:38:02,267
then every Bitcoiner would have to go underground and it would become like the

667
00:38:02,267 --> 00:38:03,927
drug trade everywhere around the world.

668
00:38:04,197 --> 00:38:08,187
No, no, like, obviously, there are certain government policies that

669
00:38:08,187 --> 00:38:09,307
would be better for Bitcoin, right?

670
00:38:09,317 --> 00:38:13,128
Like, if government takes away capital gains tax laws, that is an

671
00:38:13,128 --> 00:38:15,181
unmitigated positive thing for Bitcoin.

672
00:38:15,181 --> 00:38:20,172
And so I believe there really are things that are net good and net bad for Bitcoin.

673
00:38:20,322 --> 00:38:23,752
But yes, what really is going on is people are saying, oh, there's

674
00:38:24,062 --> 00:38:26,972
something that sounds like it's bad for Bitcoin, but here's the silver lining.

675
00:38:26,982 --> 00:38:29,412
Okay, yes, you can find a silver lining to many things.

676
00:38:30,282 --> 00:38:31,772
Is it net good or net bad?

677
00:38:31,822 --> 00:38:34,482
That's the way I think serious analysis should be done.

678
00:38:34,502 --> 00:38:37,342
Of course, memes are one thing and serious analysis is another.

679
00:38:37,792 --> 00:38:41,042
I think it should be, uh, you know, rephrased as everything is

680
00:38:41,042 --> 00:38:42,852
memetically good for Bitcoin, maybe.

681
00:38:43,532 --> 00:38:46,062
Even if Thanos Snaps the world away.

682
00:38:46,402 --> 00:38:48,452
Uh, it's, is that mimetically good for Bitcoin,

683
00:38:48,632 --> 00:38:50,292
uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, probably.

684
00:38:50,372 --> 00:38:54,012
When they, when they, uh, you know, interstellar, uh, archaeologists

685
00:38:54,122 --> 00:38:57,572
found the, find the relics and, oh, there's a pyramid.

686
00:38:58,027 --> 00:39:01,287
Uh, probably had something to do with sound money or something.

687
00:39:01,397 --> 00:39:01,837
I don't know.

688
00:39:02,513 --> 00:39:05,963
Could we, could we cover the, your objection to the meme

689
00:39:05,973 --> 00:39:07,843
just for our listeners benefit?

690
00:39:07,913 --> 00:39:09,383
I think it's going to be interesting.

691
00:39:09,458 --> 00:39:11,078
Oz the infinity of a 21 million.

692
00:39:11,148 --> 00:39:11,468
Right.

693
00:39:11,468 --> 00:39:11,608
Yeah.

694
00:39:11,608 --> 00:39:11,748
Yeah.

695
00:39:11,748 --> 00:39:11,998
So

696
00:39:12,373 --> 00:39:14,033
I never said infinity by the way.

697
00:39:14,443 --> 00:39:16,903
Other people said infinity because the graphics

698
00:39:16,918 --> 00:39:17,138
saying?

699
00:39:17,138 --> 00:39:19,728
It's like, imagine everything there is divided by 21 million.

700
00:39:19,748 --> 00:39:20,708
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

701
00:39:20,998 --> 00:39:26,138
So that, that to me, so like long time listeners probably know Knut and I

702
00:39:26,148 --> 00:39:29,548
had an episode where we spoke in depth about this, but the short version of

703
00:39:29,548 --> 00:39:34,842
it is Global wealth is not the same thing as the global money supply.

704
00:39:34,862 --> 00:39:39,402
So as an example, if you look at the M2, global money M2 supply, broad

705
00:39:39,402 --> 00:39:43,002
money, that might, that number is probably something like 100 trillion.

706
00:39:43,212 --> 00:39:46,702
But global wealth is probably something like 400 trillion,

707
00:39:46,702 --> 00:39:47,892
or maybe a little bit more now.

708
00:39:48,162 --> 00:39:54,367
So, my point is that the money supply number Does not have to capture or

709
00:39:54,367 --> 00:39:56,827
encapsulate all of global wealth.

710
00:39:57,037 --> 00:40:00,817
It's very possible in the future at some, like, let's imagine in the

711
00:40:00,822 --> 00:40:04,627
year 2150 or something, when most of the 21 million coins are out, that

712
00:40:04,632 --> 00:40:08,827
global wealth denominated in Bitcoin is greater than 21 million, right?

713
00:40:08,827 --> 00:40:14,527
It could be 80 million bitcoin worth of global wealth, but we

714
00:40:14,527 --> 00:40:18,672
still have only 21 million or just under 21 million worth of coins.

715
00:40:19,297 --> 00:40:19,997
That's my point.

716
00:40:20,017 --> 00:40:23,017
That's why I'm saying, it's not, like, if you're looking at it from

717
00:40:23,017 --> 00:40:28,937
an accounting perspective, it is entirely possible that things are worth

718
00:40:28,987 --> 00:40:32,937
more, like, at the aggregate level, that it is more than the 21 million

719
00:40:33,097 --> 00:40:38,902
total supply of bitcoin, because the accounting valuation of things Can be

720
00:40:38,942 --> 00:40:40,832
greater than the actual money supply.

721
00:40:41,562 --> 00:40:42,342
That's how I see it.

722
00:40:42,662 --> 00:40:47,742
this is great because like most people they say actually it's everything over 14

723
00:40:47,752 --> 00:40:51,322
million or something that because you have to disregard the Satoshi's coins and lost

724
00:40:51,332 --> 00:40:52,522
lost coins and whatever.

725
00:40:52,722 --> 00:40:55,942
like, ah, you're missing the point so bad, but you're saying it's more

726
00:40:55,942 --> 00:40:57,792
like everything divided by 80 million.

727
00:40:57,942 --> 00:40:58,462
I love it.

728
00:40:59,582 --> 00:41:01,282
Well, I mean, that's just an example, right?

729
00:41:01,282 --> 00:41:04,372
I mean, obviously I'm just kind of taking, you know, let's say a hundred trillion

730
00:41:04,372 --> 00:41:05,942
versus over four hundred trillion.

731
00:41:05,942 --> 00:41:06,492
Is it 4x?

732
00:41:06,912 --> 00:41:09,172
I mean, who knows what that actual ratio will be.

733
00:41:09,192 --> 00:41:11,952
Maybe some of that is obviously driven by fractional reserve banking.

734
00:41:12,172 --> 00:41:16,272
In the future, we don't know exactly, but the point is accounting valuations,

735
00:41:16,282 --> 00:41:21,072
like if you look at the accounting entries of a particular company,

736
00:41:21,942 --> 00:41:23,662
it can be more than the actual.

737
00:41:23,992 --> 00:41:29,542
Money supply, and that's not an unusual, that's not a, like, I guess, on the

738
00:41:29,542 --> 00:41:32,262
face of it, contradictory thing, so that's why I kind of disagree with the

739
00:41:32,262 --> 00:41:35,052
meme, but I understand it's a meme, and it's not, you know, a serious

740
00:41:35,232 --> 00:41:38,632
Not to be taken literally like, uh, so, uh.

741
00:41:39,342 --> 00:41:42,312
How does that, how does that relate to debt?

742
00:41:42,632 --> 00:41:47,262
So like the, the, the, the, the debt to asset ratio in the world right

743
00:41:47,262 --> 00:41:49,922
now is like way, way, way more debt.

744
00:41:50,042 --> 00:41:55,082
And, uh, like we don't have, we have way more debt than we have actual

745
00:41:55,162 --> 00:41:57,252
capital goods, like actual assets.

746
00:41:57,562 --> 00:41:59,792
So, so how will that shift on a Bitcoin standard?

747
00:41:59,802 --> 00:42:00,832
How does that play out in

748
00:42:00,932 --> 00:42:04,552
Yeah, so I believe there will still be debt, it's just a lot less, right, so put

749
00:42:04,552 --> 00:42:08,592
it this way, and so this comes back to, sort of, Austrian debates about commodity

750
00:42:08,602 --> 00:42:10,742
credit, as opposed to circulation credit.

751
00:42:10,742 --> 00:42:15,407
Now, I'm in the full reserve camp, I believe that's the Uh, both ethically,

752
00:42:15,677 --> 00:42:20,707
moral approach, and also economically sound approach for things to go.

753
00:42:20,877 --> 00:42:25,327
And I believe that fractional reserve causes this instability,

754
00:42:25,327 --> 00:42:26,657
this economic instability.

755
00:42:26,657 --> 00:42:27,197
And so

756
00:42:27,692 --> 00:42:30,202
Here we're in a 100 percent agreement, by the way.

757
00:42:30,737 --> 00:42:31,027
right.

758
00:42:31,027 --> 00:42:34,427
And so I believe there will still be debt, but it will be commodity credit.

759
00:42:34,447 --> 00:42:38,957
That means somebody somewhere is voluntarily giving up their access

760
00:42:38,957 --> 00:42:43,707
to the capital for somebody else to be able to use that capital for their

761
00:42:43,707 --> 00:42:45,397
business or their project or whatever.

762
00:42:45,877 --> 00:42:52,462
And so I think, in short, there'll be a lot less credit and there won't be so much

763
00:42:52,492 --> 00:42:56,292
easy, cheap credit like we have in the world today for government and even for

764
00:42:56,292 --> 00:42:58,222
businesses and just for people in general.

765
00:42:58,512 --> 00:43:02,472
Uh, but the prices of things will be so much less because we'll be living

766
00:43:02,472 --> 00:43:04,262
in a deflationary world, right?

767
00:43:04,262 --> 00:43:08,202
The price of things will be coming down in Bitcoin terms, but your

768
00:43:08,202 --> 00:43:12,462
purchasing power is going up in terms of how much you can purchase.

769
00:43:12,612 --> 00:43:13,972
So that's going to be the cool thing.

770
00:43:14,072 --> 00:43:18,267
It may lead to some really funny scenarios, though, where maybe In a

771
00:43:18,267 --> 00:43:22,337
paradoxical sense, your salary from your employer might be going down

772
00:43:22,357 --> 00:43:26,837
in Bitcoin terms, but actually up in purchasing power terms, which might

773
00:43:26,837 --> 00:43:31,037
be kind of like, crazy to really think about, but it's like the reverse, yeah.

774
00:43:31,062 --> 00:43:31,662
I love this.

775
00:43:31,662 --> 00:43:34,782
When I, when I try to think about that, like, if you, if you think

776
00:43:34,792 --> 00:43:38,362
about a hyperbitcoinized world, to me, it's inevitable that most

777
00:43:38,372 --> 00:43:44,424
stacks will have to decrease over time, because people need to eat.

778
00:43:45,004 --> 00:43:48,334
And if, if, if, if you're not doing barter, then, and if you're

779
00:43:48,334 --> 00:43:51,854
buying stuff for Bitcoin, then your stack will be, will decrease.

780
00:43:52,224 --> 00:43:57,334
So I can even, uh, Well, in sats terms,

781
00:43:57,749 --> 00:44:00,109
right, but think about it like, you're still spending those

782
00:44:00,119 --> 00:44:01,629
sats to somebody else, right?

783
00:44:01,639 --> 00:44:02,189
Like, so,

784
00:44:02,494 --> 00:44:05,904
yeah, but there's some, but no, no, coins will be lost.

785
00:44:06,364 --> 00:44:07,044
Coins will be

786
00:44:07,269 --> 00:44:08,324
oh yeah, sure, sure.

787
00:44:08,564 --> 00:44:12,804
So the total amount of coins after 2140 is shrinking.

788
00:44:12,994 --> 00:44:13,874
It's not growing.

789
00:44:13,874 --> 00:44:14,924
It's in, in.

790
00:44:15,134 --> 00:44:17,234
Like all likelihood, it's shrinking because

791
00:44:17,924 --> 00:44:22,434
right, but also, we might get much better security technology that, you

792
00:44:22,434 --> 00:44:24,154
know, there's very less, very little

793
00:44:24,294 --> 00:44:27,714
absolutely, but what I'm getting to is like, as you say,

794
00:44:27,734 --> 00:44:29,124
purchasing power can still go up.

795
00:44:29,124 --> 00:44:32,824
So you can see salaries and stuff go down and, and the prices of

796
00:44:32,824 --> 00:44:37,364
stuff go down and still the value goes up, like of the set goes up.

797
00:44:37,784 --> 00:44:41,619
So imagine a scenario where people are actually starting companies.

798
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,539
Not to have black numbers on their balance sheets in terms of Satoshis,

799
00:44:45,859 --> 00:44:51,809
but to have their stacks diminish a little slower, at a little slower pace.

800
00:44:52,409 --> 00:44:54,029
So that's why you start the company.

801
00:44:54,599 --> 00:44:58,219
And that's just so weird to wrap your head around, so it's like

802
00:44:58,229 --> 00:45:00,389
almost impossible to think about.

803
00:45:00,802 --> 00:45:01,332
Yeah.

804
00:45:01,432 --> 00:45:03,632
That's kind of crazy when you really think about it, right?

805
00:45:03,632 --> 00:45:06,672
Because then you're like, you're trying to break even, or you're trying to

806
00:45:06,672 --> 00:45:10,292
profit, obviously, but uh, it's just going to be really, really hard to do that.

807
00:45:10,652 --> 00:45:16,562
And so, yeah, but I think it'll create this environment where

808
00:45:16,562 --> 00:45:17,682
there's a lot more saving.

809
00:45:17,902 --> 00:45:21,242
There'll be a lot more people actually saving, and I think that will be

810
00:45:21,242 --> 00:45:23,632
a huge boon for humanity, right?

811
00:45:23,632 --> 00:45:28,362
Because I believe, like Safetine and probably you and many others, believe

812
00:45:28,362 --> 00:45:32,512
that saving is the, really, it's the bedrock of civilization, right?

813
00:45:32,522 --> 00:45:38,112
Like, it's this idea that the more people are saving, They're sort of giving up

814
00:45:38,172 --> 00:45:41,582
their control over resources to some other entrepreneur who's out there

815
00:45:41,582 --> 00:45:45,102
found, who's found the most profitable use for it, and if he's not using it

816
00:45:45,102 --> 00:45:46,602
profitably, he's gonna lose money.

817
00:45:46,712 --> 00:45:50,602
So he needs to try to be profitable, uh, or at least break even, as we were talking

818
00:45:50,602 --> 00:45:56,772
about, um, Or at least losing less, let's say, and that is going to yield benefits

819
00:45:56,782 --> 00:45:59,352
for all of us because those entrepreneurs are going to be out there trying to

820
00:45:59,352 --> 00:46:03,552
find ways to do it faster, better, cheaper, you know, just in general.

821
00:46:03,592 --> 00:46:07,682
And so we're all going to benefit from that, even if it sounds kind of

822
00:46:08,202 --> 00:46:12,302
counterintuitive that our salaries are going down in Bitcoin terms,

823
00:46:12,302 --> 00:46:14,002
but up in purchasing power terms.

824
00:46:14,617 --> 00:46:19,327
Yeah, I absolutely love this part of the rabbit hole because

825
00:46:19,337 --> 00:46:20,637
it fascinates me so much.

826
00:46:20,657 --> 00:46:24,167
And it ties into what you said before about you have to be vigilant and

827
00:46:24,407 --> 00:46:25,857
everyone's a scammer and all of this.

828
00:46:26,137 --> 00:46:28,477
Because I think there's a flip side to that coin too.

829
00:46:28,767 --> 00:46:35,802
And that is, you know, people that like This Bitcoin, my trust in you as

830
00:46:36,642 --> 00:46:41,952
the Bitcoiner Stephan Livera is way, way, way, way, way, way higher than

831
00:46:41,952 --> 00:46:46,592
it would have been if you were like Stephan the Pokemon guy who I'd known

832
00:46:46,592 --> 00:46:48,162
online for eight years, you know?

833
00:46:48,702 --> 00:46:49,932
Uh, you know what I mean?

834
00:46:50,382 --> 00:46:54,862
So, so like, I, I completely trust you because I know your

835
00:46:54,862 --> 00:46:56,482
character because I've seen it.

836
00:46:56,502 --> 00:46:59,462
I've observed it over a long period of time.

837
00:46:59,942 --> 00:47:02,582
And I think the, the feeling is somewhat mutual.

838
00:47:02,582 --> 00:47:06,502
If I was Knut Svanholm, the, the Pokemon guy, you wouldn't trust me as much as,

839
00:47:07,102 --> 00:47:12,012
or if I was Knut Svanholm, the Ethereum guy, like you, you can sort of sort

840
00:47:12,012 --> 00:47:16,862
out the, the bad actors over time, over a long enough timeframe and just.

841
00:47:17,187 --> 00:47:19,527
Judging from their character and what they're saying and

842
00:47:19,527 --> 00:47:21,517
how their actions, uh, you map

843
00:47:21,767 --> 00:47:22,587
will matter a lot.

844
00:47:23,037 --> 00:47:24,627
Yeah, reputational capital.

845
00:47:24,677 --> 00:47:24,967
Yeah.

846
00:47:25,287 --> 00:47:30,067
So I think, like, your reputational capital is probably what you'll start

847
00:47:30,067 --> 00:47:31,697
trading instead of trading bitcoins.

848
00:47:32,699 --> 00:47:35,929
Oh, I'm not sure I would agree so much with, I think there will still be, like,

849
00:47:35,929 --> 00:47:39,889
you'll still need to actually trade, but I'm just saying, reputation will matter

850
00:47:39,889 --> 00:47:42,759
a lot, you know, because people will be like, oh, that guy, he was a scammer,

851
00:47:42,759 --> 00:47:47,099
or he was a dodgy guy, don't do business with him, because you don't want to, you

852
00:47:47,099 --> 00:47:52,019
know, lose, lose out doing business with a scammer, so that aspect is definitely

853
00:47:52,019 --> 00:47:55,509
going to be there, but I still see it, like, we will be doing, A lot of commerce.

854
00:47:55,509 --> 00:47:59,295
We'll be doing a lot of transactions because, people will want to buy more

855
00:47:59,295 --> 00:48:03,075
stuff, right, and I think now, yes, you can make arguments about like, oh, certain

856
00:48:03,075 --> 00:48:06,205
goods will be more durable, but at the same time, there'll be lots of innovation

857
00:48:06,205 --> 00:48:10,425
and new inventions happening that will want people, people will want to buy

858
00:48:10,435 --> 00:48:15,925
those new things, whether it's, you know, better technology for living or, you know,

859
00:48:15,955 --> 00:48:16,895
food or whatever.

860
00:48:17,445 --> 00:48:20,745
Because this is actually where we might disagree on something.

861
00:48:21,055 --> 00:48:26,181
Because I think, like, uh, when you have this absolutely scarce thing,

862
00:48:26,351 --> 00:48:31,011
uh, you, you adopt a lower time preference, or that's the theory at

863
00:48:31,011 --> 00:48:34,671
least, that you're incentivized to save rather than spend, as you say, like,

864
00:48:34,671 --> 00:48:36,751
saving is the bedrock of civilization.

865
00:48:37,981 --> 00:48:42,351
And as you do that, you, you're not as inclined to buy frivolous

866
00:48:42,361 --> 00:48:43,531
shit that you don't need.

867
00:48:43,561 --> 00:48:48,131
You don't need that margarita mixer with the salsa dispenser, like, and you

868
00:48:48,131 --> 00:48:53,191
don't need to buy a trillion Christmas gifts for relatives you don't see,

869
00:48:53,561 --> 00:48:57,851
like, and you don't need all this bullshit, like, we live in an age of

870
00:48:57,881 --> 00:49:02,941
over consumerism and it's mostly due to fiat, the fiat monetary paradigm that

871
00:49:03,141 --> 00:49:05,301
everyone's selling shit everywhere.

872
00:49:05,811 --> 00:49:09,911
And the, the whole, the whole point of Keynesianism is the velocity of money.

873
00:49:09,911 --> 00:49:12,891
Like, so people are selling and buying all the time.

874
00:49:13,541 --> 00:49:17,851
And I see like on a Bitcoin standard, that, that trend reversing, of course,

875
00:49:17,851 --> 00:49:21,421
people will still want stuff and they will still want quality stuff and,

876
00:49:21,591 --> 00:49:26,031
you know, luxury stuff and whatever, but the total number of transactions,

877
00:49:26,031 --> 00:49:30,841
I see microtransactions and speed trading as a very, very fiaty thing.

878
00:49:30,951 --> 00:49:32,181
So what's your thoughts on that?

879
00:49:32,796 --> 00:49:34,386
Okay, so I agree partially, right?

880
00:49:34,396 --> 00:49:38,146
Like, I think there is an element to which, you know, um, people make the, as

881
00:49:38,146 --> 00:49:41,006
you said, speed trading, I guess you're referring to, like, Flashboys and this

882
00:49:41,006 --> 00:49:44,056
kind of HFT, high frequency trading sort

883
00:49:44,116 --> 00:49:47,956
only that, but, but also like paying a penny to go to the bathroom in

884
00:49:47,961 --> 00:49:52,006
the, in the, in the central station, like that kind of micro transaction

885
00:49:52,279 --> 00:49:54,349
Oh, okay, so I can sort of agree some of that.

886
00:49:54,379 --> 00:49:59,569
Like, what you might see there is, put it this way, uh, when you go to

887
00:49:59,569 --> 00:50:03,199
the mall You don't have to pay to go to the toilet because the mall has

888
00:50:03,289 --> 00:50:05,389
internalized the externality, right?

889
00:50:05,429 --> 00:50:07,649
And you don't even have to have bought something in that mall.

890
00:50:07,659 --> 00:50:10,829
They are just kind of, all right, that's gratis, that's on the house, you know?

891
00:50:11,169 --> 00:50:14,839
And maybe we'll start seeing that in other contexts where it's kind of businesses

892
00:50:14,839 --> 00:50:18,109
who kind of give you more for free just because, hey, we're making so much.

893
00:50:18,394 --> 00:50:22,274
On our normal business model, then we can just give you this one for free, right?

894
00:50:22,274 --> 00:50:23,744
Or it's like loss leaders, right?

895
00:50:23,744 --> 00:50:26,574
They kind of, you know, if you go to the supermarket, maybe they've

896
00:50:26,574 --> 00:50:29,884
subsidized the price of milk because that's what gets you in, that's what

897
00:50:29,884 --> 00:50:32,274
gets you in the door because then you're going to buy other stuff.

898
00:50:32,864 --> 00:50:36,814
But where I disagree is I still see a very strong role for transactions

899
00:50:36,814 --> 00:50:41,014
because my point is that yes, it's true that we'll have lower time preference.

900
00:50:41,024 --> 00:50:42,684
Yes, it's true we'll have less consumerism.

901
00:50:43,269 --> 00:50:44,959
But I think that's to a point.

902
00:50:45,159 --> 00:50:47,229
Because ultimately, we don't live forever.

903
00:50:47,679 --> 00:50:47,939
Right?

904
00:50:47,939 --> 00:50:52,809
I still have to provide for my wife and son, and you still have to provide for

905
00:50:52,809 --> 00:50:56,169
your family, and we still have to, you know, buy things, and we're not going to

906
00:50:56,169 --> 00:51:01,609
live forever, and so, you know, whether that's buying meat to eat, or whether

907
00:51:01,609 --> 00:51:05,354
it's, you know, whatever things that you need, or whether You'll still be

908
00:51:05,354 --> 00:51:08,914
buying stuff, and at the same time, we'll be living in this world of incredible

909
00:51:08,934 --> 00:51:11,174
technical, technological progress, right?

910
00:51:11,174 --> 00:51:15,564
Maybe people will be going to the space, and they'll be, you know, investing

911
00:51:15,564 --> 00:51:18,134
in how to do that, and how to do all kinds of crazy stuff, who knows?

912
00:51:18,364 --> 00:51:21,824
Maybe not in our lifetimes, but in like, kind of, later down the line.

913
00:51:22,094 --> 00:51:25,644
And so, I see it like, there will still be a lot of transactions.

914
00:51:26,219 --> 00:51:32,219
It may be less focused on this kind of consumerism as you point out today, but

915
00:51:32,219 --> 00:51:33,809
there'll still be a lot more transactions.

916
00:51:33,929 --> 00:51:36,189
And think about it like this, what if the population of

917
00:51:36,189 --> 00:51:37,509
earth grows a lot more, right?

918
00:51:37,509 --> 00:51:42,299
What if we have this kind of bitcoin natalism taking on and there's a

919
00:51:42,299 --> 00:51:46,459
lot more people and just as part of that factor, there's just a lot more

920
00:51:46,459 --> 00:51:48,649
transactions from that sense, right?

921
00:51:48,649 --> 00:51:50,409
The world population now is like 8 billion.

922
00:51:50,519 --> 00:51:53,529
It's probably going to get to 10 billion in 2050, 2060, and who knows,

923
00:51:53,529 --> 00:51:55,369
maybe we'll expand it even further.

924
00:51:56,039 --> 00:52:01,559
Okay, let me devil's advocate this a bit further, because I have an example of

925
00:52:01,559 --> 00:52:05,549
something that is possible on a bitcoin standard but not on a fiat standard.

926
00:52:06,019 --> 00:52:10,119
And that is a pay once type subscription model.

927
00:52:10,789 --> 00:52:15,694
So if you want to subscribe to, you know, Fresh meat every

928
00:52:15,694 --> 00:52:17,284
week for the rest of your life.

929
00:52:18,014 --> 00:52:21,734
There is a bitcoin price for that, that the butcher would

930
00:52:21,734 --> 00:52:23,674
accept, like a one time payment.

931
00:52:23,724 --> 00:52:27,114
Like, you get 10 bitcoins from me and then you get the meat for

932
00:52:27,114 --> 00:52:28,254
free for the rest of your life.

933
00:52:28,334 --> 00:52:30,264
I'd, if I was a butcher, I'd take that.

934
00:52:30,919 --> 00:52:31,609
You know what I mean?

935
00:52:32,146 --> 00:52:38,196
Like, if you truly believe that the currency will increase in value over time,

936
00:52:38,786 --> 00:52:43,796
even if it's slowly, there's a price point where you will accept the price of a one

937
00:52:43,816 --> 00:52:46,506
time payment for a lifetime subscription.

938
00:52:46,806 --> 00:52:49,466
And why couldn't everything be on a lifetime subscription

939
00:52:49,476 --> 00:52:50,626
in an economy like that?

940
00:52:50,926 --> 00:52:53,186
So I think this is weirder than we think it is.

941
00:52:53,546 --> 00:52:54,746
That's my main point here.

942
00:52:54,966 --> 00:52:58,806
Maybe, but I just think the net effect won't be that there's

943
00:52:58,806 --> 00:52:59,876
like very few transactions.

944
00:52:59,896 --> 00:53:03,476
I think the net effect is that there will be still a lot of transactions,

945
00:53:03,636 --> 00:53:06,136
Yeah, let me clear that up because that's not what I'm saying.

946
00:53:06,146 --> 00:53:12,686
I'm just saying that, that Uh, the trend is sort of reversing, it's,

947
00:53:12,696 --> 00:53:14,776
it's not more consumerism, it's less.

948
00:53:15,076 --> 00:53:18,306
So, uh, of course, there will still be transactions that those

949
00:53:18,326 --> 00:53:21,576
transactions will be more important to the people making them.

950
00:53:21,846 --> 00:53:23,596
So it's another type of transaction.

951
00:53:23,596 --> 00:53:24,906
That's so, so I'm not saying that

952
00:53:25,006 --> 00:53:32,686
but I mean, I'm sort of, I'm still a bit, uh, like we might see new businesses, new

953
00:53:32,726 --> 00:53:35,391
types of services, and, put it this way.

954
00:53:35,781 --> 00:53:40,151
Not every service will go on that model, right?

955
00:53:40,151 --> 00:53:42,191
Like, it's, I mean, I'll give you an example, right?

956
00:53:42,191 --> 00:53:46,191
Like, if you think about Xiaomi DigiCash and stuff like this, when they had this

957
00:53:46,191 --> 00:53:49,971
kind of cyber box or whatever it was called, they were kind of envisioning

958
00:53:49,991 --> 00:53:53,181
this model that everyone was going to do, like, microtransactions on the internet.

959
00:53:53,641 --> 00:53:56,481
And in practice, the way the internet went is ads, right?

960
00:53:56,521 --> 00:53:58,291
Like, that's kind of actually what happened.

961
00:53:58,291 --> 00:54:03,971
So, the point is more just that monetization models may be different

962
00:54:03,981 --> 00:54:05,301
to how we think they will be, right?

963
00:54:05,321 --> 00:54:08,301
Like, maybe this one time subscription model, and you know what?

964
00:54:08,311 --> 00:54:12,001
That works in the context of certain apps and software, right?

965
00:54:12,001 --> 00:54:16,141
There are certain software, um, apps that I've seen that are this kind of

966
00:54:16,181 --> 00:54:17,931
pay one time, use it forever, right?

967
00:54:17,931 --> 00:54:20,931
There are already software Examples that do this, right, like even

968
00:54:20,931 --> 00:54:23,601
like Winrar or whatever, some of these ones they just like, pay

969
00:54:23,601 --> 00:54:25,491
one time, you've got it for life.

970
00:54:25,831 --> 00:54:28,674
but there's lots of other things that are more like, no, it's a subscription,

971
00:54:28,684 --> 00:54:35,589
or no, it's a You know, uh, because, here's the other thing, you might, you

972
00:54:35,589 --> 00:54:38,559
as the butcher might be comfortable taking 10 bitcoin, but me as the

973
00:54:38,559 --> 00:54:44,789
customer might be like, hey, is Knut gonna still, uh, be around in 20 years,

974
00:54:45,129 --> 00:54:46,139
on other contracts.

975
00:54:46,159 --> 00:54:46,449
Yeah.

976
00:54:46,599 --> 00:54:50,589
you know, because they might be, they might sort of do this kind of, oh, hey

977
00:54:50,589 --> 00:54:54,239
man, you made that agreement 30 years ago, or whatever, something has changed,

978
00:54:54,249 --> 00:54:58,599
force majeure or something, how is the customer gonna be comfortable that that

979
00:54:58,619 --> 00:55:02,429
other business is really gonna be around for a The rest of their life, you know?

980
00:55:02,811 --> 00:55:07,141
Yeah, yeah, well, I sort of pulled the example out of my ass, so it's not a

981
00:55:07,141 --> 00:55:12,141
perfect example, but I can see, it's not hard to imagine business models

982
00:55:12,141 --> 00:55:16,511
where a one time Bitcoin payment gives you a lifetime subscription.

983
00:55:16,521 --> 00:55:19,531
It doesn't have to be meat and a specific butcher.

984
00:55:19,991 --> 00:55:25,271
It's just like, the point is that that wasn't possible on a fiat standard,

985
00:55:25,301 --> 00:55:26,691
but it is on a Bitcoin standard.

986
00:55:27,576 --> 00:55:30,546
Yeah, I guess part of it comes down to I mean, yes, you could look

987
00:55:30,546 --> 00:55:32,856
at things like even, let's say, the life insurance model, right?

988
00:55:32,856 --> 00:55:37,946
They look at this kind of actuarial tables and understanding, oh, okay,

989
00:55:38,376 --> 00:55:42,266
you're this age, you are a non smoker, non drinker, blah blah blah, whatever,

990
00:55:42,316 --> 00:55:45,736
and we expect your life to be, you know, 30 more years or whatever.

991
00:55:46,506 --> 00:55:48,796
You know, yeah, there are business models that work around

992
00:55:48,806 --> 00:55:50,959
that kind of thing, sort of.

993
00:55:51,029 --> 00:55:54,099
I mean, even there, there's like life insurance premiums that you pay, right?

994
00:55:54,289 --> 00:56:00,919
So, I'm not as sure that we can just assume that it's going to go

995
00:56:00,919 --> 00:56:01,899
in the direction you're saying.

996
00:56:01,909 --> 00:56:06,069
Like, I think there's just going to be a wide range of monetization models.

997
00:56:06,109 --> 00:56:08,829
Some of that will be subscription based, some of that will be one time based,

998
00:56:08,829 --> 00:56:09,829
some of that will be subscription based.

999
00:56:10,259 --> 00:56:16,319
You know, just one time services, and I think the net number of services

1000
00:56:16,319 --> 00:56:22,239
and firms that are existing might grow, and on that basis, it might be

1001
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:26,149
less consumerist, but still a lot of transactions, is how I'm seeing it.

1002
00:56:26,179 --> 00:56:27,709
Like, I'm just saying, it's not necessarily going to play

1003
00:56:27,709 --> 00:56:29,019
that way, is how I'm seeing it.

1004
00:56:29,394 --> 00:56:32,424
Yeah, I think we have almost the same view on this.

1005
00:56:32,434 --> 00:56:34,694
It's just that I love devils advocating stuff.

1006
00:56:35,469 --> 00:56:35,869
Right.

1007
00:56:35,954 --> 00:56:40,564
But, but, uh, yeah, so speaking of life insurance, like having those

1008
00:56:40,574 --> 00:56:43,114
10 bitcoins that you were about to give to the butcher is like the

1009
00:56:43,114 --> 00:56:44,984
best life insurance ever anyway.

1010
00:56:44,984 --> 00:56:47,744
So don't pay life insurance with bitcoin, that's stupid.

1011
00:56:48,456 --> 00:56:52,426
Yeah, I mean, to some extent, it's like, what's financially optimal, at

1012
00:56:52,426 --> 00:56:57,721
least, Now, here in early 2024, for many people, at least financially, is

1013
00:56:58,301 --> 00:57:00,371
HODL bitcoin and rent everything else.

1014
00:57:00,631 --> 00:57:04,701
That seems to just be the, you know, because if you buy stuff

1015
00:57:05,221 --> 00:57:07,981
and you're, again, you're like us, you think bitcoin is going to, you

1016
00:57:07,981 --> 00:57:11,001
know, however many million dollars per coin in today's fiat terms.

1017
00:57:11,586 --> 00:57:16,836
Then, it just rarely makes sense to actually buy things, um, but, I mean,

1018
00:57:16,846 --> 00:57:19,966
you have to trade off, I mean, to some extent, you might say, well, look, I

1019
00:57:19,986 --> 00:57:23,376
gotta own a house to raise my family, or, you know, certain things, it just

1020
00:57:23,376 --> 00:57:27,889
makes sense to own, but, yeah, it kind of raises these kind of crazy questions

1021
00:57:27,889 --> 00:57:32,769
of, like, should you just hodl bitcoin and rent everything else, or what things

1022
00:57:32,849 --> 00:57:36,099
should you pay the price now to own it?

1023
00:57:36,586 --> 00:57:41,046
I mean, you're a lot younger than I am, and so is Luke, by the way, and

1024
00:57:41,256 --> 00:57:44,696
so like, you were in a different stage of your life when you, when you found

1025
00:57:44,696 --> 00:57:51,496
this thing, and like, had a, I mean, I, I was in, I already had a family,

1026
00:57:51,536 --> 00:57:55,016
already had a house with a mortgage and all this, in the hamster's wheel

1027
00:57:55,016 --> 00:58:00,091
doing the fiat carrier bullshit, so, and, and I know that Uh, it's, it's

1028
00:58:00,121 --> 00:58:05,871
trickier to get out of that position, not only physically, but mentally as well.

1029
00:58:05,871 --> 00:58:11,241
I mean, most people don't, don't become crazy Bitcoiners, like, especially

1030
00:58:11,241 --> 00:58:15,411
if, if they're halfway in a upper ladder, they, they didn't choose.

1031
00:58:15,954 --> 00:58:20,954
so, so yeah, but for the younger generation, I would definitely

1032
00:58:20,954 --> 00:58:25,924
recommend like renting everything and keeping your stack as long as you can

1033
00:58:25,924 --> 00:58:27,294
manage your stack, because that's.

1034
00:58:28,199 --> 00:58:31,049
Uh, in all likelihood it's gonna outperform everything else.

1035
00:58:31,099 --> 00:58:32,224
Like, why wouldn't it?

1036
00:58:32,516 --> 00:58:36,116
Yeah, it's a hard thing, because, uh, there's a lot of people out there who

1037
00:58:36,156 --> 00:58:40,511
have And it feels crushing for them.

1038
00:58:40,811 --> 00:58:44,031
But on one angle, you could sort of say, yeah, look, let me try

1039
00:58:44,031 --> 00:58:45,811
and hodl as much Bitcoin as I can.

1040
00:58:46,281 --> 00:58:51,121
Uh, and over time, the debt jubilee, the quote unquote debt jubilee

1041
00:58:51,171 --> 00:58:55,891
of fiat getting inflated away, if you can survive it, right?

1042
00:58:55,901 --> 00:58:57,371
That's the important proviso, right?

1043
00:58:57,371 --> 00:59:00,101
Because if you take out too much debt and you can't sustain

1044
00:59:00,101 --> 00:59:01,601
it, you could get wrecked.

1045
00:59:02,041 --> 00:59:04,851
Right, you could get wrecked because maybe you lose your job and you can't,

1046
00:59:04,871 --> 00:59:08,931
you can no longer make the house payments or you, you know, various, various

1047
00:59:08,941 --> 00:59:12,591
situations could happen but depending on the type of debt, depending on the

1048
00:59:12,601 --> 00:59:16,521
amount of that debt, depending on your income, how safe you are about it or

1049
00:59:16,531 --> 00:59:21,351
how stable you believe your income is, there's, there are different scenarios

1050
00:59:21,351 --> 00:59:27,501
that people could see that it makes sense to sort of retain some of that debt just

1051
00:59:27,501 --> 00:59:31,884
because It acts almost like a short on fiat in a way, like as someone like Lynn

1052
00:59:31,904 --> 00:59:36,894
Alden might say, and that's paradoxical, but in the fiat age we live in for the

1053
00:59:36,894 --> 00:59:42,324
last 40, 50 years or so, it has sort of made sense, now I'm going to be careful

1054
00:59:42,324 --> 00:59:46,264
about this, I'm not saying plebs go out there and get in debt and, you know, get

1055
00:59:46,264 --> 00:59:50,814
wrecked out there, but I'm saying, at the professional business level, it has

1056
00:59:50,964 --> 00:59:55,914
professionally made sense to have some level of debt, because that's just how you

1057
00:59:55,974 --> 00:59:57,824
kind of got ahead in the fiat standard.

1058
00:59:58,129 --> 01:00:03,329
And, you know, I am not endorsing that, obviously, but I'm just sort of trying

1059
01:00:03,329 --> 01:00:07,949
to neutrally state the fact that that's, that's been, you know, the net effect of

1060
01:00:07,949 --> 01:00:10,259
what the fiat standard has brought us.

1061
01:00:10,489 --> 01:00:14,809
And if you were trying to do things just fully zero debt, it's like the

1062
01:00:14,809 --> 01:00:16,709
equivalent of you're in the boxing ring and you're trying to fight

1063
01:00:16,709 --> 01:00:18,349
with one arm tied behind your back.

1064
01:00:18,649 --> 01:00:21,399
And there are other entrepreneurs out there who have access to the cheap.

1065
01:00:22,409 --> 01:00:24,939
They have access to the printer and they've got this cheap credit and

1066
01:00:24,939 --> 01:00:26,449
they can use it to quickly expand.

1067
01:00:26,459 --> 01:00:28,369
They can maybe buy out their competitors.

1068
01:00:28,629 --> 01:00:30,089
They can do all kinds of things.

1069
01:00:30,089 --> 01:00:33,589
Maybe they can buy new machinery and beat you out because they've got a

1070
01:00:33,599 --> 01:00:37,159
lower cost of production and they can beat you in the marketplace that way.

1071
01:00:37,169 --> 01:00:40,619
So I'm not endorsing going out there and, you know, going crazy with the

1072
01:00:40,619 --> 01:00:44,619
debt, but I'm just recognizing it's created this perverse incentive.

1073
01:00:44,629 --> 01:00:47,029
It's created this weird system that.

1074
01:00:47,524 --> 01:00:50,344
Sometimes the irresponsible ones are the ones who got ahead

1075
01:00:50,344 --> 01:00:54,374
because maybe they timed it and they got lucky with the cycle.

1076
01:00:54,384 --> 01:00:57,784
Maybe they were property flippers or they were, you know, doing kinds of

1077
01:00:57,784 --> 01:01:01,754
crazy business acquisitions, but they kind of got in and out before the bubble

1078
01:01:01,754 --> 01:01:04,354
popped and now they are way richer.

1079
01:01:04,579 --> 01:01:10,729
Because they played the Fiat Crazy Clown Show game better than the non

1080
01:01:10,739 --> 01:01:16,209
debt user person, and so that can be a hard question, especially if

1081
01:01:16,219 --> 01:01:19,869
for, you know, religious or cultural or just ethical reasons that you

1082
01:01:19,869 --> 01:01:23,929
don't want to partake in the debt System, the debt, you know, debacle.

1083
01:01:24,829 --> 01:01:27,349
But, uh, you know, that's, that's the world we're in.

1084
01:01:27,409 --> 01:01:29,839
And so we're effectively trying to, you know, we're in the boxing ring trying

1085
01:01:29,839 --> 01:01:31,369
to fight with one arm behind our back.

1086
01:01:32,229 --> 01:01:35,559
To be fair, if you are orange peeled and you're coddling bitcoin, then

1087
01:01:35,559 --> 01:01:37,469
you have the advantage longer term.

1088
01:01:37,894 --> 01:01:39,934
No, that's the world everyone else is in.

1089
01:01:39,934 --> 01:01:40,964
We're in the Bitcoin world.

1090
01:01:41,214 --> 01:01:44,074
No,

1091
01:01:44,389 --> 01:01:45,169
for a while, yeah.

1092
01:01:45,199 --> 01:01:49,129
But I think that's maybe the journey for somebody who's new to this is gonna

1093
01:01:49,129 --> 01:01:52,399
look at that and be like, oh man, I don't want to leave the fiat standard.

1094
01:01:52,399 --> 01:01:53,299
I've got all this cheap credit.

1095
01:01:54,034 --> 01:01:56,964
It's quote unquote working well for me, at least they might think

1096
01:01:56,964 --> 01:01:58,204
it is, even if it's not really.

1097
01:01:58,889 --> 01:02:04,729
and sadly enough, like, taking on debt is inevitably how you win fiat.

1098
01:02:04,819 --> 01:02:08,849
Like, the system itself leads, inevitably leads to that.

1099
01:02:08,849 --> 01:02:09,669
I truly believe that.

1100
01:02:10,079 --> 01:02:14,669
That there's no way you can have fiat money without debt being, like, the

1101
01:02:14,879 --> 01:02:17,279
biggest part of the economy at some point.

1102
01:02:17,299 --> 01:02:17,679
Like, it,

1103
01:02:18,259 --> 01:02:20,439
Yeah, the incentive just pushes you that way,

1104
01:02:20,734 --> 01:02:20,914
Yeah.

1105
01:02:20,914 --> 01:02:21,184
Yeah.

1106
01:02:21,184 --> 01:02:24,154
And you know, everything else, but money becomes money.

1107
01:02:24,244 --> 01:02:25,564
Like houses is

1108
01:02:25,669 --> 01:02:25,979
right,

1109
01:02:26,254 --> 01:02:26,824
easiest.

1110
01:02:27,009 --> 01:02:28,579
stock market, bonds.

1111
01:02:29,039 --> 01:02:32,309
You know, some of these things just get out of reach, and that's what we're

1112
01:02:32,309 --> 01:02:33,799
seeing in many parts of the world.

1113
01:02:34,019 --> 01:02:37,099
We're seeing this, especially in the big cities, the big, big world cities like New

1114
01:02:37,099 --> 01:02:41,489
York and London and even, you know, Sydney and Vancouver and Toronto and Hong Kong.

1115
01:02:41,499 --> 01:02:43,909
These have these crazy property bubbles because everyone's

1116
01:02:43,909 --> 01:02:45,439
using housing as their savings.

1117
01:02:45,774 --> 01:02:47,344
And they just lever up.

1118
01:02:47,764 --> 01:02:48,954
And so then it just goes

1119
01:02:48,984 --> 01:02:49,194
out

1120
01:02:49,294 --> 01:02:51,484
inevitably it crashes at some point as well.

1121
01:02:52,244 --> 01:02:58,434
Right, but every now and then, because the political system is so aligned to this,

1122
01:02:58,454 --> 01:03:00,174
they don't want to let the bubble pop.

1123
01:03:00,204 --> 01:03:00,764
They can't.

1124
01:03:00,814 --> 01:03:03,654
They can't politically afford to let it pop, so they just

1125
01:03:03,654 --> 01:03:04,664
want to keep kicking the can.

1126
01:03:04,664 --> 01:03:07,574
And that's where, you know, I think we sort of go back and forth because there

1127
01:03:07,574 --> 01:03:10,334
are some, you know, macro talking heads who are like, oh, it's all gonna collapse.

1128
01:03:10,534 --> 01:03:12,074
And then on the other hand, you have people who are saying,

1129
01:03:12,074 --> 01:03:13,294
yeah, look, it's not good.

1130
01:03:13,779 --> 01:03:16,249
But the authorities and the powers that be will just muddle

1131
01:03:16,249 --> 01:03:17,479
through, as they have, right?

1132
01:03:17,479 --> 01:03:19,649
They've kicked the can, they're just gonna keep kicking the can.

1133
01:03:19,859 --> 01:03:21,439
They'll try to do it as long as they can.

1134
01:03:21,439 --> 01:03:24,709
They'll try to stave it off, and look, communism took six,

1135
01:03:24,739 --> 01:03:26,269
well, seven decades to fall.

1136
01:03:26,819 --> 01:03:31,039
How long can they sustain the fiat system and just keep muddling along,

1137
01:03:31,279 --> 01:03:33,329
um, rather than there being a big crash?

1138
01:03:34,434 --> 01:03:34,674
Yeah.

1139
01:03:34,674 --> 01:03:38,634
That's why I like the, uh, the analogy of rolling the snowball down the hill

1140
01:03:38,634 --> 01:03:41,754
better than kicking the can down the road because like the can doesn't

1141
01:03:41,754 --> 01:03:43,949
grow bigger , but the snowball does.

1142
01:03:44,069 --> 01:03:47,099
the situation gets worse and worse and worse, but we don't, we still

1143
01:03:47,099 --> 01:03:50,279
don't know, even with that in mind, we don't know how many more cycles,

1144
01:03:50,339 --> 01:03:51,979
how many go rounds they can do, right?

1145
01:03:51,989 --> 01:03:54,929
Like, they, they did it at the GFC, they, you know, they pumped up this

1146
01:03:54,939 --> 01:03:58,899
everything bubble, who knows, we had this corona, kind of, you know,

1147
01:03:59,189 --> 01:04:04,019
corona tyranny, COVID tyranny bubble, I should say, not actually COVID, um,

1148
01:04:04,029 --> 01:04:07,839
but because of that, they pumped it up again, and who's to say, like, what if

1149
01:04:07,839 --> 01:04:09,489
Trump gets in and they pump it again?

1150
01:04:09,489 --> 01:04:10,109
Like, we don't know.

1151
01:04:10,699 --> 01:04:14,359
No, so, so, so let me pick your brain on if you agree with this perspective,

1152
01:04:14,369 --> 01:04:18,659
like, from decade to decade, like, the reason it didn't crash in the 2000s or

1153
01:04:18,659 --> 01:04:23,099
whatever, or the reason it didn't crash more than it did in 2008, is because of

1154
01:04:23,099 --> 01:04:28,164
the increased productivity as a result of Technical improvements, like as, as

1155
01:04:28,164 --> 01:04:32,484
long as you know, technical improvements and production costs can go down

1156
01:04:32,484 --> 01:04:38,884
faster, then they can, uh, you know, uh, print the money to destroy the value.

1157
01:04:38,884 --> 01:04:43,794
And the, the thing we might see now that, that may sustain the current

1158
01:04:43,794 --> 01:04:47,544
system for another decade or two is probably the AI revolution.

1159
01:04:47,544 --> 01:04:51,534
And that's that making everything easier and everything less costly

1160
01:04:52,074 --> 01:04:53,694
in, in actual terms for people.

1161
01:04:53,694 --> 01:04:56,124
Like, is that the thing that is gonna save it?

1162
01:04:57,069 --> 01:04:58,189
Yeah, hard to say, to be honest.

1163
01:04:58,189 --> 01:05:01,859
I, okay, so there's different actual theories I've seen.

1164
01:05:01,859 --> 01:05:06,409
Someone like Stephan Kinsella has spoken about how, you know, maybe it's

1165
01:05:06,419 --> 01:05:09,179
that, you know, fractional reserve banking is obviously bad for the

1166
01:05:09,179 --> 01:05:12,879
economy, and it causes all this economic instability, and yet the economy is

1167
01:05:12,879 --> 01:05:15,059
still so productive, even despite this.

1168
01:05:15,514 --> 01:05:19,714
That we've just managed to do well, quote unquote, well, at least it

1169
01:05:19,714 --> 01:05:24,734
hasn't all totally blown up in our faces, uh, and then you've got other

1170
01:05:24,734 --> 01:05:29,134
people who might argue, you know, more like a WTF happened in 1971 view

1171
01:05:29,134 --> 01:05:33,854
that, oh look, uh, the productivity and wages haven't kept up, right?

1172
01:05:33,864 --> 01:05:37,624
That's kind of one argument, but other Epstein, I did an episode about this

1173
01:05:37,634 --> 01:05:42,239
as well, argue that No, actually, that graph, that divergence, is caused by using

1174
01:05:42,239 --> 01:05:44,949
two different, uh, inflation metrics.

1175
01:05:45,139 --> 01:05:48,889
And once you align everything in nominal terms, it actually does align roughly in

1176
01:05:48,889 --> 01:05:55,799
terms of productivity and wages, uh, and so we could still make the argument though

1177
01:05:55,799 --> 01:05:57,229
that the Cantillon effect is still there.

1178
01:05:57,239 --> 01:06:01,509
Like, even if the productivity growth is kept in line with, um, wages.

1179
01:06:01,954 --> 01:06:05,554
You could still argue that the Cantillon effect and the inherent injustice of

1180
01:06:05,554 --> 01:06:09,034
the system that the, you know, the Jamie Dimonds of the world and the

1181
01:06:09,254 --> 01:06:10,744
people who get the cheap credit, i.

1182
01:06:10,744 --> 01:06:10,904
e.

1183
01:06:10,924 --> 01:06:14,234
government, and those people who are closest to the monetary spigot,

1184
01:06:14,444 --> 01:06:17,724
they are benefiting at the expense of everybody else, because they

1185
01:06:17,724 --> 01:06:19,884
can benefit Accumulate real goods.

1186
01:06:20,264 --> 01:06:24,094
Uh, and every now and then when we have a crash, a whole bunch of people

1187
01:06:24,094 --> 01:06:27,754
get wrecked and guess who gets to buy up housing on the cheap, right?

1188
01:06:27,764 --> 01:06:31,704
The likes of the Black Rocks and these other, you know, big investment firms

1189
01:06:31,924 --> 01:06:34,084
who can sort of pick up the, pick up.

1190
01:06:34,134 --> 01:06:35,308
Everything that's happening is happening.

1191
01:06:35,308 --> 01:06:38,593
I mean, we're talking about physical goods on the cheap every time there's a

1192
01:06:38,593 --> 01:06:42,583
crash and people get, you know, laid off or lose their jobs and they can no longer

1193
01:06:42,583 --> 01:06:44,461
afford to make the payments on the house.

1194
01:06:44,461 --> 01:06:47,512
Therefore, there's like an appraisal, you know, there's a, um, what's the word?

1195
01:06:47,512 --> 01:06:48,451
Foreclosure on the house.

1196
01:06:48,451 --> 01:06:51,974
And so it's kind of difficult to disentangle these factors.

1197
01:06:52,184 --> 01:06:56,714
I think it is fair to say we've seen all this productivity come in the world of.

1198
01:06:57,209 --> 01:07:00,579
Computing and the internet and so on, and that has made us richer

1199
01:07:00,579 --> 01:07:02,599
in, in that limited sense, right?

1200
01:07:02,599 --> 01:07:08,019
Obviously, people can make arguments about, uh, streaming and, uh, how

1201
01:07:08,019 --> 01:07:10,329
good our smartphones are compared to, you know, 20 years ago when

1202
01:07:10,329 --> 01:07:11,579
smartphones were not a thing.

1203
01:07:11,869 --> 01:07:15,709
And so, there's some element, there's some element of truth to that, and I

1204
01:07:15,709 --> 01:07:18,289
think here's the other element I would, here's the other point I would make.

1205
01:07:19,394 --> 01:07:24,164
I think we've, we've, we've been living through this kind of malinvestment,

1206
01:07:24,214 --> 01:07:27,544
and it's not just at the firm level, it's at individual levels.

1207
01:07:27,684 --> 01:07:30,204
So put it this way, we've been living beyond our means.

1208
01:07:30,444 --> 01:07:34,504
There are more people who think, put it this way, they think they can afford

1209
01:07:34,504 --> 01:07:38,784
to live out on their own, get their own apartment, when Actually, being

1210
01:07:38,884 --> 01:07:42,284
financially sustainable meant actually living with the extended family, right?

1211
01:07:42,284 --> 01:07:45,054
Those people shouldn't have been out living on their own because it's just

1212
01:07:45,064 --> 01:07:49,894
the cheap credit economy that drove all these jobs that made them think, yeah,

1213
01:07:49,894 --> 01:07:52,704
I can afford to live out on my own, or I can afford to do all these crazy.

1214
01:07:52,834 --> 01:07:55,974
So, there's a lot of people who are doing all these different things, but that

1215
01:07:55,974 --> 01:07:57,440
was kind of a fiat credit phenomenon.

1216
01:07:57,440 --> 01:08:00,580
And that actually, now that things are coming back to you know, every now and

1217
01:08:00,580 --> 01:08:03,864
again when the crashing is happening and it's sort of coming back to monetary

1218
01:08:03,864 --> 01:08:08,084
reality, people are realizing, oh, wait a sec, my job is not worth that much,

1219
01:08:08,084 --> 01:08:11,284
or I just got laid off from my big tech job, but now I can't afford to go out

1220
01:08:11,284 --> 01:08:12,804
and live in my own fancy apartment.

1221
01:08:14,494 --> 01:08:18,574
Living with my family or instead of living on my own, there was an incentive to

1222
01:08:18,574 --> 01:08:23,524
actually, you know, get married and be in a family unit because you can save costs

1223
01:08:23,584 --> 01:08:27,894
that way, and that there was actually an economic incentive to have a family,

1224
01:08:27,894 --> 01:08:29,724
or be a part of a family as opposed to.

1225
01:08:30,394 --> 01:08:34,614
The Big Daddy Welfare State, or Big Mama Welfare Statism, um,

1226
01:08:34,624 --> 01:08:36,014
that was enabled by fiat credit.

1227
01:08:36,064 --> 01:08:39,224
And so, you could argue that we've been living a lie, right?

1228
01:08:39,224 --> 01:08:42,584
We've, a lot of people have been living a lie, they're living beyond their means,

1229
01:08:43,144 --> 01:08:45,554
and it's fiat that made them live a lie.

1230
01:08:45,554 --> 01:08:45,814
It

1231
01:08:46,255 --> 01:08:50,435
Yeah, yeah, we're all living in a lie to a certain extent, uh, I mean,

1232
01:08:51,296 --> 01:08:56,486
from a pure, like, Austrian economics, praxeology, ethics perspective, like,

1233
01:08:56,516 --> 01:09:02,306
that you're, or from a, you shall not steal perspective, if you wish, then

1234
01:09:02,326 --> 01:09:06,906
we're all living in a lie because we're, we're categorizing some types of theft

1235
01:09:07,216 --> 01:09:12,906
differently than other, than others, uh, as long as it's the government, it's

1236
01:09:12,926 --> 01:09:21,011
somehow okay, and, uh, That's just, from a very, very basic notion of ethics,

1237
01:09:21,401 --> 01:09:27,841
like kids fighting at the playground over a stick or something, you know that

1238
01:09:27,891 --> 01:09:33,376
taking other people's stuff is wrong, like, whenever Whatever shape or form it

1239
01:09:33,386 --> 01:09:39,686
takes, it's, it's just not going to lead to better outcomes than if people could

1240
01:09:39,686 --> 01:09:41,816
do things voluntarily and with consent.

1241
01:09:42,216 --> 01:09:47,116
Uh, so, so I think there's a very, uh, and when, when you do the deep dive, when

1242
01:09:47,116 --> 01:09:53,836
you, when you see all the, the effects this theft has on, on interventionism in

1243
01:09:53,836 --> 01:10:00,594
markets have on, on like, Handicapping the thing that ought to be there, the tide

1244
01:10:00,594 --> 01:10:06,364
that raises all boats, um, then it becomes really vulgar that people are doing it

1245
01:10:06,364 --> 01:10:13,614
at all, um, I mean that's, that's how I view, like, you called yourself both

1246
01:10:13,614 --> 01:10:17,524
a libertarian and an anarcho capitalist here before, I don't know, like, the,

1247
01:10:17,534 --> 01:10:23,009
the, the wordings for these things are, are so, I You know, words change meaning

1248
01:10:23,009 --> 01:10:27,649
over time and they get hijacked by, by difficult, uh, different political forces.

1249
01:10:27,649 --> 01:10:30,549
I mean, progressive, that doesn't mean progressive at all.

1250
01:10:31,199 --> 01:10:37,159
It means lefty and, uh, and also like liberal means left hard as well.

1251
01:10:37,599 --> 01:10:41,309
Uh, when, when the, the original meaning of the word was something

1252
01:10:41,309 --> 01:10:43,149
completely different than what it is now.

1253
01:10:43,344 --> 01:10:47,134
liberal, like a Mises, like Mises was a classical liberal, whereas in the American

1254
01:10:47,134 --> 01:10:49,264
context, liberal means like lefty today,

1255
01:10:49,414 --> 01:10:49,654
Yeah.

1256
01:10:49,654 --> 01:10:49,894
Yeah.

1257
01:10:49,924 --> 01:10:52,834
So, so, so I would say like the, the, the thing I'd like to call

1258
01:10:52,834 --> 01:10:56,134
myself as a consensual list, uh, first and foremost, and that's like

1259
01:10:56,524 --> 01:11:01,564
the, the politically, I want as many interactions between people to be

1260
01:11:01,564 --> 01:11:03,604
voluntary and consensual as possible.

1261
01:11:03,866 --> 01:11:06,196
So, maybe we have a slight disagreement here as well, like,

1262
01:11:06,196 --> 01:11:07,846
let me explain how I'm seeing it.

1263
01:11:07,846 --> 01:11:14,436
Like, I I mean, the way I'm seeing it is libit, like, if you think about what

1264
01:11:15,166 --> 01:11:20,066
libertarianism is, it is a specific theory of private property rights.

1265
01:11:20,336 --> 01:11:23,536
It's, it's, it's not just property rights, like, even socialism has a

1266
01:11:23,536 --> 01:11:26,326
property rights theory, it's just that the state owns the property rights, the

1267
01:11:26,326 --> 01:11:30,306
meaning, the state is the controller or owner of the means of production.

1268
01:11:30,316 --> 01:11:33,036
That's the, you know, dictionary definition of socialism.

1269
01:11:33,406 --> 01:11:37,436
In libertarianism, it's more about this idea of Lockean homesteading.

1270
01:11:37,456 --> 01:11:38,246
This idea that you.

1271
01:11:38,586 --> 01:11:43,466
Homestead, a piece of property by mixing your labour with that land, and then it

1272
01:11:43,466 --> 01:11:47,836
becomes your land, and then the only way from then on that you should mix, or that

1273
01:11:47,846 --> 01:11:53,626
it, uh, title should transfer is either voluntary contract, or maybe like a fraud

1274
01:11:53,686 --> 01:11:58,231
sort of context, or um, you Yeah, I mean, that's generally, that's basically it.

1275
01:11:58,231 --> 01:12:02,441
Like, it should only, in a legitimate sense, only be transferred at a, you

1276
01:12:02,441 --> 01:12:05,541
know, uh, market contract agreed rate.

1277
01:12:05,541 --> 01:12:08,181
Like, I'm selling it to you for, whatever, 0.

1278
01:12:08,181 --> 01:12:09,581
2 of a bitcoin or whatever, right?

1279
01:12:09,611 --> 01:12:15,982
Um, but, the point where maybe I, sort of, let me explain it this way, politically,

1280
01:12:16,557 --> 01:12:21,007
I'm libertarian, but I believe, going forward in the future, there may be

1281
01:12:21,087 --> 01:12:26,887
a role for social and cultural, let's say, restraints on our behavior, right?

1282
01:12:27,387 --> 01:12:30,377
So, at the political level, I'm a libertarian, but I can still see

1283
01:12:30,377 --> 01:12:35,957
a role for, you know, a family leader, the patriarch, let's say.

1284
01:12:35,957 --> 01:12:38,027
I can see a role for, like, in the family context.

1285
01:12:39,032 --> 01:12:44,222
He's not quite, um, culturally, I guess, libertarian in the sense

1286
01:12:44,222 --> 01:12:45,242
of, oh, just do whatever you want.

1287
01:12:45,242 --> 01:12:49,872
He's more like, no, there's certain things that I need to set down rules for

1288
01:12:50,342 --> 01:12:53,992
my family, especially for the children, to make sure that they don't go and hurt

1289
01:12:53,992 --> 01:12:57,472
themselves or do certain things, that I still see a role for that, or I still

1290
01:12:57,472 --> 01:13:03,627
see a role for, let's say, certain social Norms, let's say, that even if they are

1291
01:13:03,627 --> 01:13:07,097
consensual, that they might still be a bad thing, or that they, there should

1292
01:13:07,097 --> 01:13:12,367
be certain forms of social stigma or control, even if it's not illegal at

1293
01:13:12,367 --> 01:13:13,927
the political level or the legal level.

1294
01:13:13,927 --> 01:13:14,547
You get what I'm saying?

1295
01:13:14,547 --> 01:13:17,827
Like, I don't know, as an example, let me just make a quick example, it

1296
01:13:17,827 --> 01:13:22,247
might be like, in the same way that Ron Paul would be anti the war on

1297
01:13:22,247 --> 01:13:27,637
drugs, But he would still be, let's say, at a personal level, anti drugs.

1298
01:13:27,727 --> 01:13:28,017
Right?

1299
01:13:28,017 --> 01:13:31,227
He wouldn't want people to go and do those drugs, but he would still not see

1300
01:13:31,227 --> 01:13:32,827
a role for the state to get involved.

1301
01:13:32,837 --> 01:13:36,407
I would say I'm sort of a similar in that sense, that I have some

1302
01:13:36,467 --> 01:13:40,587
elements of cultural conservatives, cultural conservatism, but at the

1303
01:13:40,587 --> 01:13:41,877
political level I'm libertarian.

1304
01:13:41,887 --> 01:13:43,547
That's kind of how I would explain

1305
01:13:43,592 --> 01:13:47,702
Did, did you see a South Park episode called the Death Camp of Tolerance?

1306
01:13:48,317 --> 01:13:48,877
No, I haven't

1307
01:13:48,877 --> 01:13:49,057
seen

1308
01:13:49,262 --> 01:13:51,782
it's brilliant because like, uh, Mr.

1309
01:13:51,782 --> 01:13:56,192
Garrison, uh, realizes that the, the, there's a teacher that sued the

1310
01:13:56,192 --> 01:13:59,762
school for a million dollars because they, he got fired for being gay.

1311
01:13:59,972 --> 01:14:02,462
So he's, he's trying to get fired for being gay.

1312
01:14:02,972 --> 01:14:05,462
So he is being as, as , you know.

1313
01:14:07,367 --> 01:14:10,767
Provocatively gay as possible throughout the episode.

1314
01:14:10,987 --> 01:14:16,357
And the whole episode is about, like, uh, Accepting, tolerating is not

1315
01:14:16,377 --> 01:14:18,097
the same as, you know, accepting.

1316
01:14:18,167 --> 01:14:21,017
And tolerating is not the same thing as agreeing with.

1317
01:14:21,437 --> 01:14:25,337
And I'm totally with you there, like, I'm against the war on drugs, but I

1318
01:14:25,367 --> 01:14:28,837
don't want my kids to take a bunch of drugs, like, it's pretty easy.

1319
01:14:29,297 --> 01:14:34,082
Um, I just don't think, yeah, and Who, who was that who said like, uh, be a

1320
01:14:34,082 --> 01:14:36,362
communist with your family, a socialist

1321
01:14:36,467 --> 01:14:37,527
That was Taleb, actually.

1322
01:14:37,597 --> 01:14:38,697
That was Nassim Taleb, yeah.

1323
01:14:38,772 --> 01:14:39,222
it was.

1324
01:14:39,807 --> 01:14:40,227
Yeah.

1325
01:14:40,602 --> 01:14:43,322
Yeah, even a blind hen can find a golden pebble.

1326
01:14:43,732 --> 01:14:44,262
Uh, I mean,

1327
01:14:44,837 --> 01:14:45,277
Yeah.

1328
01:14:45,557 --> 01:14:49,007
So yeah, so that's why I, I guess put it this way, I, I, I prefer the

1329
01:14:49,007 --> 01:14:52,887
term libertarian because it's more specifically about what should happen at

1330
01:14:52,887 --> 01:14:56,437
the political and private property rights level, whereas the term consensualist

1331
01:14:56,457 --> 01:14:59,997
to me can sort of mean like, oh, as long as any two parties are consensing,

1332
01:15:00,007 --> 01:15:04,517
like, it should be sort of morally supported, whereas like I wouldn't.

1333
01:15:04,922 --> 01:15:07,022
I wouldn't legally say you shouldn't do that, but it might

1334
01:15:07,022 --> 01:15:11,292
be, there might be areas where I might criticize at a social layer,

1335
01:15:11,612 --> 01:15:11,962
yeah, yeah,

1336
01:15:12,462 --> 01:15:13,072
You get what I'm saying?

1337
01:15:13,072 --> 01:15:16,562
So, in that sense, and that's, and that's where I just want to make this quick

1338
01:15:16,562 --> 01:15:20,212
point as well, because people confuse libertarianism with libertinism, right?

1339
01:15:20,212 --> 01:15:24,812
This kind of idea of, you know, hedonism and libertinism and, oh, you're against

1340
01:15:24,812 --> 01:15:27,192
the war on drugs, you should, we should all be, everyone should just

1341
01:15:27,192 --> 01:15:28,552
go and have, take drugs and whatever.

1342
01:15:28,702 --> 01:15:29,262
It's like, no.

1343
01:15:29,702 --> 01:15:33,152
I'm a libertarian, I'm not necessarily a hedonist or a libertinist.

1344
01:15:33,192 --> 01:15:34,322
That's kind of how I would

1345
01:15:34,402 --> 01:15:34,922
explain that.

1346
01:15:35,862 --> 01:15:38,682
It's a big pile gangbang where everyone's on heroin.

1347
01:15:38,682 --> 01:15:39,402
Like, that's not

1348
01:15:39,532 --> 01:15:42,202
Right, it might be consensual, but I might still judge that

1349
01:15:42,232 --> 01:15:43,542
as, hey, that's degenerate,

1350
01:15:43,722 --> 01:15:47,242
Okay, you guys go ahead and do that if you want to, but I'm not going to participate.

1351
01:15:47,472 --> 01:15:51,702
Right, or even, even stronger, that there may be a role for some kind of

1352
01:15:51,702 --> 01:15:57,437
social You know, like, hey, that's wrong, that, uh, you know, and maybe,

1353
01:15:57,437 --> 01:16:00,867
you know what, maybe in the future, there may be certain citadels where

1354
01:16:01,027 --> 01:16:02,347
that is against the rules, right?

1355
01:16:02,347 --> 01:16:05,497
Maybe it's like, hey, you're opting into this citadel, and we have rules about,

1356
01:16:05,537 --> 01:16:10,737
like, no drugs or whatever, um, you know, maybe, maybe there is a role for that in

1357
01:16:10,737 --> 01:16:14,647
the future, and it, like, let's say it's opt in and it's kind of upfront, you know?

1358
01:16:15,407 --> 01:16:19,007
The thing, like, back to Devil's Advocate again, because I love it.

1359
01:16:19,257 --> 01:16:23,807
So, the thing, when I hear the word political, to me it sounds like,

1360
01:16:24,547 --> 01:16:30,757
uh, you're coming from a place where you see this as possible

1361
01:16:31,077 --> 01:16:33,517
to be implemented politically.

1362
01:16:33,837 --> 01:16:37,347
And Argentina might be the first example of that, that it actually,

1363
01:16:37,347 --> 01:16:40,837
uh, a libertarian actually wanted an election for once.

1364
01:16:41,437 --> 01:16:45,587
But I think that elections themselves are sort of a lefty thing, and that

1365
01:16:45,627 --> 01:16:49,597
they're sort of, the game is sort of rigged long term to favor people who care

1366
01:16:49,597 --> 01:16:53,737
more about belonging to a group than, than about individual property rights.

1367
01:16:54,112 --> 01:16:58,022
Oh, I mean, look, I fully agree with the Hans Hermann Hoppe view about monarchy

1368
01:16:58,042 --> 01:17:01,592
being better than democracy, right, so I'm, I'm with you there about democracy

1369
01:17:01,592 --> 01:17:06,052
being a dumb system, uh, and basically just being a soft form of socialism, but

1370
01:17:06,052 --> 01:17:09,942
at the same time, as a pragmatic thing.

1371
01:17:10,407 --> 01:17:12,777
It's still worthwhile supporting Libertarian political

1372
01:17:12,777 --> 01:17:13,897
parties, in my view, right?

1373
01:17:13,897 --> 01:17:18,797
Like, I, I'm, you know, now, I'm, I don't live in Australia anymore, um, but if I

1374
01:17:18,797 --> 01:17:22,477
did, I would have no opposition with, you know, voting for the Libertarian party,

1375
01:17:22,527 --> 01:17:26,067
because, and I guess one important nuance is, in Australia, voting is compulsory,

1376
01:17:26,337 --> 01:17:32,317
and so, um, so, yeah, I mean, now, uh, you know, there are some people who go and

1377
01:17:32,317 --> 01:17:35,967
just spoil their ballot, and historically, I, I did do that a few times in Australia,

1378
01:17:35,967 --> 01:17:39,412
when there was just, like, not even a Libertarian candidate, but, Um, like

1379
01:17:39,432 --> 01:17:44,022
intentionally just kind of spoiling the ballot and making like a, an invalid

1380
01:17:44,022 --> 01:17:47,762
vote because I, you know, philosophically thought, you know, but nowadays.

1381
01:17:48,257 --> 01:17:52,747
I see a role for pragmatism as well in that, yes, I can believe that

1382
01:17:52,757 --> 01:17:57,437
philosophically anarcho capitalism would be, you know, the, you

1383
01:17:57,617 --> 01:18:00,447
know, the approach, or the best approach, or the least bad approach.

1384
01:18:00,817 --> 01:18:05,147
I still see a role for pragmatically sort of pushing towards that direction, and

1385
01:18:05,147 --> 01:18:11,107
so for that reason, I'm still okay with some forms of Political, you know, action

1386
01:18:11,297 --> 01:18:12,957
to try to reduce the role of the state.

1387
01:18:12,957 --> 01:18:15,267
And so I would say, as long as you're trying to reduce the role of the

1388
01:18:15,267 --> 01:18:18,527
state, as long as you're trying to lower the taxes, less of the, decrease

1389
01:18:18,707 --> 01:18:22,397
the regulation, decrease the size of the state, I believe it's defensible

1390
01:18:22,417 --> 01:18:23,867
from a libertarian perspective.

1391
01:18:24,861 --> 01:18:27,821
So you don't think you're just wasting your time if you're

1392
01:18:27,841 --> 01:18:29,711
participating in the system at all?

1393
01:18:29,741 --> 01:18:32,791
Isn't it a better statement to just go be a bitcoiner?

1394
01:18:33,631 --> 01:18:35,931
So I think yes and no, like I don't.

1395
01:18:36,316 --> 01:18:37,556
I don't fully, I don't really agree with that.

1396
01:18:37,566 --> 01:18:42,686
Like, I think it's like a saying, um, if you're not at the table, you're

1397
01:18:42,686 --> 01:18:46,096
on the menu, or the other one is, um, you know, just because you're not

1398
01:18:46,096 --> 01:18:49,086
interested in politics doesn't mean politics is not interested in you, right?

1399
01:18:49,086 --> 01:18:54,546
Like, we can try to sort of, you know, uh, go away and opt out and do our

1400
01:18:54,546 --> 01:18:58,776
own thing, and I believe monetarily and financially you should do that,

1401
01:18:58,956 --> 01:19:05,086
but I think politically, you're just leaving, you're vacating the, you're

1402
01:19:05,096 --> 01:19:06,696
vacating the turf for the opposing side.

1403
01:19:07,216 --> 01:19:11,026
And if you're not even taking part in that conversation, they're just

1404
01:19:11,026 --> 01:19:13,056
going to come after you and they're just going to steal your stuff.

1405
01:19:13,386 --> 01:19:19,036
And so, now, I'm, let's say, uh, I'm pro a bunch of different things.

1406
01:19:19,066 --> 01:19:20,966
Obviously, Bitcoin, the most important thing.

1407
01:19:21,246 --> 01:19:23,086
But there's a whole bunch of other strategies that I

1408
01:19:23,086 --> 01:19:24,246
believe will help, right?

1409
01:19:24,246 --> 01:19:26,986
So, as you and I know, the Free Private Cities, yeah?

1410
01:19:26,996 --> 01:19:29,766
Like, obviously, you and I are both ambassadors of that with the

1411
01:19:29,766 --> 01:19:32,176
Free Private Cities Foundation or the Free Cities Foundation.

1412
01:19:32,201 --> 01:19:35,661
check it out, and brush your teeth, and subscribe, and like, and all that.

1413
01:19:35,851 --> 01:19:40,221
Yeah, yeah, so yeah, free, yeah, and uh, the Liberty in Our Lifetime conference

1414
01:19:40,221 --> 01:19:44,011
is there, so that's a great one, so I'm obviously a fan of that, I believe

1415
01:19:44,121 --> 01:19:48,011
the flag theory, people who are kind of doing citizenships and residencies

1416
01:19:48,011 --> 01:19:51,821
overseas and things like that, you know, I spoke at Nomad Capitalist Live last

1417
01:19:51,821 --> 01:19:57,221
year in Malaysia, um, as an example, um, I'm also in favour of the secessionist

1418
01:19:57,241 --> 01:20:01,381
movement, so things like Texas and Texit, trying to leave the United States, or,

1419
01:20:01,601 --> 01:20:04,641
or another example is the Free State Project in New Hampshire, in America,

1420
01:20:04,651 --> 01:20:08,191
like I, I, obviously, I'm not American, I'm not gonna go live in America, but

1421
01:20:08,191 --> 01:20:11,081
I kind of, philosophically, I like what they're doing, it's a, it's a good

1422
01:20:11,081 --> 01:20:14,011
thing, there are more people pushing for that, so we should just be doing

1423
01:20:14,011 --> 01:20:18,141
whatever we can to promote and win, like, I think, like, Javier Millet, he

1424
01:20:18,141 --> 01:20:21,721
fought the cultural and social battle, right, he went on these TV shows, and

1425
01:20:21,721 --> 01:20:24,051
he had this kind of, Persona, right?

1426
01:20:24,051 --> 01:20:28,321
He had this kind of personality about him, and he did what no other libertarian

1427
01:20:28,351 --> 01:20:32,091
at that level has ever done, is to get elected to be the head of state, or the

1428
01:20:32,331 --> 01:20:36,921
head of the government, so, you know, he was doing something right, I think,

1429
01:20:37,011 --> 01:20:40,461
and look, there are obviously, there's lots of ways that things could go wrong

1430
01:20:40,461 --> 01:20:48,061
there, uh, maybe libertarianism or on liberty, but you can't not try, right?

1431
01:20:48,061 --> 01:20:51,221
Like, you should at least try, and I believe pursuing all these approaches,

1432
01:20:51,241 --> 01:20:55,496
whether it's Sort of, uh, voting for a libertarian candidate, doing, you

1433
01:20:55,496 --> 01:21:00,276
know, even seasteading, free private cities, secession, bitcoin, you know,

1434
01:21:00,336 --> 01:21:02,346
all of them, I think, help each other.

1435
01:21:02,516 --> 01:21:03,156
It all helps.

1436
01:21:03,648 --> 01:21:07,548
Absolutely, I think optionality is key here, like, fight for more optionality

1437
01:21:07,558 --> 01:21:09,428
for as many people as possible.

1438
01:21:09,428 --> 01:21:13,388
I, I'm totally on the Michael Malice side of this argument, like, in the,

1439
01:21:13,948 --> 01:21:17,938
the white pill book about the Soviet Union and the, the East Bloc, like,

1440
01:21:17,968 --> 01:21:19,298
haven't read that, but I've heard of it, yeah.

1441
01:21:19,528 --> 01:21:19,948
It's great.

1442
01:21:19,968 --> 01:21:23,898
And he's, he's really hammering in the point that never lose hope.

1443
01:21:24,268 --> 01:21:27,068
Like when we lose hope, then they've won.

1444
01:21:27,318 --> 01:21:30,978
Like if you, if you're not fighting back and if you're not taking the,

1445
01:21:31,728 --> 01:21:35,738
taking the verbal and the physical, if needed, uh, battle, like,

1446
01:21:35,858 --> 01:21:36,208
Yeah,

1447
01:21:36,258 --> 01:21:37,498
then you let them win.

1448
01:21:37,713 --> 01:21:38,143
Yeah.

1449
01:21:38,518 --> 01:21:41,978
gotta be repetitive, and I know that sounds boring for some people because

1450
01:21:41,978 --> 01:21:45,618
they've heard the sound money case for the millionth time, but I'll tell you what,

1451
01:21:45,628 --> 01:21:50,748
like I was saying earlier, in 2013, very few people even knew the term fiat money.

1452
01:21:51,083 --> 01:21:55,213
Now a lot of people actually have heard the term fiat money, so, it's, we are

1453
01:21:55,213 --> 01:21:58,903
making progress, it's just very slow, you gotta be, you just gotta keep repeating

1454
01:21:58,903 --> 01:22:03,163
it, and eventually, someone somewhere in the movement finds a way to break

1455
01:22:03,163 --> 01:22:06,143
through, whether that's Javier Millet or Michael Saylor or someone, they

1456
01:22:06,143 --> 01:22:09,313
find a way to break through, and that's why you've gotta just be repetitive.

1457
01:22:09,893 --> 01:22:10,173
Yeah.

1458
01:22:10,173 --> 01:22:13,463
And luckily for the world, there's a bunch of dorks like us out there

1459
01:22:13,463 --> 01:22:16,923
on the internet to do these things over and over again and liking it.

1460
01:22:16,923 --> 01:22:18,123
Yeah.

1461
01:22:18,583 --> 01:22:18,913
Yeah.

1462
01:22:20,093 --> 01:22:21,632
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1463
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1487
01:23:33,643 --> 01:23:36,553
Oh, I guess we should talk about the ordinal stuff as well, like, my view on

1488
01:23:36,553 --> 01:23:43,073
that, um, I would just, I would summarize it like, I, obviously, I agree that it's

1489
01:23:43,073 --> 01:23:48,473
spam, especially the BRC20 stuff, I am just, I've sort of gone back and forth on

1490
01:23:48,473 --> 01:23:50,183
whether filtering is going to work though.

1491
01:23:50,233 --> 01:23:54,713
That's probably where I kind of disagree, like, I like what the ocean mining

1492
01:23:55,093 --> 01:23:58,693
team are doing, I'm in favor of having Stratov2 and Lightning Payouts and

1493
01:23:58,703 --> 01:24:02,583
the stuff they're doing in general, and offering different templates to,

1494
01:24:02,623 --> 01:24:04,823
uh, miners out there, I'm just not.

1495
01:24:05,403 --> 01:24:10,273
Sold on the idea of introducing filters at the node mempool level that that will

1496
01:24:10,273 --> 01:24:16,383
be successful because I just see it like these spammers, these BRC20 people, they

1497
01:24:16,383 --> 01:24:17,653
are very high time preference, right?

1498
01:24:17,653 --> 01:24:20,593
Because if you look at how, what some of them are doing, they've got this,

1499
01:24:21,113 --> 01:24:24,333
they've got this deploy transaction and then they've got the mint transaction.

1500
01:24:24,333 --> 01:24:26,903
So what's happening is it's like a decentralized mint.

1501
01:24:27,093 --> 01:24:28,373
So all these people want to mint.

1502
01:24:28,403 --> 01:24:30,393
And because of that, they're extremely high time preference.

1503
01:24:30,393 --> 01:24:31,293
They're willing to pay.

1504
01:24:31,653 --> 01:24:32,763
To get into the next block.

1505
01:24:33,033 --> 01:24:38,463
So, I don't know that filtering at the node mempool level will really

1506
01:24:38,463 --> 01:24:39,803
achieve much, because guess what?

1507
01:24:39,813 --> 01:24:41,613
They're just going to go to the miners and they're going to do an

1508
01:24:41,633 --> 01:24:45,893
API call, and there are various exchanges and frontends and wallets

1509
01:24:45,893 --> 01:24:48,113
that support these ordinal spammers.

1510
01:24:48,498 --> 01:24:52,588
Anyway, so even if we run, even if you and I run Ordis, Prospector, or

1511
01:24:52,588 --> 01:24:56,548
these different things and you support OrdOcean, I think they're going to

1512
01:24:56,558 --> 01:25:00,368
find ways to get the transaction into each block, which will happen at the

1513
01:25:00,368 --> 01:25:02,898
consensus layer, not at the policy layer.

1514
01:25:02,988 --> 01:25:06,638
And so, for that reason, I'm kind of, uh, I'm not as sold on the

1515
01:25:06,638 --> 01:25:08,228
filtering model, or filtering thing.

1516
01:25:08,378 --> 01:25:12,603
But that said, I do believe it's It could still be a fad, right?

1517
01:25:12,603 --> 01:25:16,323
It could still be a fad that fades, and for that reason, I'm kind of like,

1518
01:25:16,333 --> 01:25:21,163
uh, let's just wait it out and hope, uh, that it kind of goes away, and

1519
01:25:21,163 --> 01:25:24,203
if not, well, the long term answer is to get more value density, right?

1520
01:25:24,203 --> 01:25:28,463
To do, like, to use lightning and other ways to make the monetary

1521
01:25:28,463 --> 01:25:30,753
transactions out compete the spam.

1522
01:25:30,923 --> 01:25:31,723
That's how I see it.

1523
01:25:32,573 --> 01:25:32,953
Yeah.

1524
01:25:33,778 --> 01:25:37,518
And what constitutes a monetary transaction is somewhat,

1525
01:25:37,808 --> 01:25:39,288
uh, subjective as well.

1526
01:25:39,298 --> 01:25:43,458
Like, I mean, so, so, uh, yeah, it's a, it's a tough one.

1527
01:25:43,468 --> 01:25:48,088
I think, uh, oceans, uh, I, I don't want to put words in his mouth, but from

1528
01:25:48,088 --> 01:25:52,703
what we got from Mechanic, I think ocean strategy is not like I'm not trying to

1529
01:25:52,703 --> 01:26:00,213
make everyone do that, but more like that, uh, this view that miners aren't really

1530
01:26:00,223 --> 01:26:05,183
miners anymore, they're just hashers, and the mining pool is the real miner.

1531
01:26:05,573 --> 01:26:11,853
So if you're a hasher, that is someone with an ASIC connected to a mining pool,

1532
01:26:12,348 --> 01:26:16,098
Maybe you should consider connecting to a different mining pool because they might

1533
01:26:16,098 --> 01:26:17,958
not agree with your views on Bitcoin.

1534
01:26:17,978 --> 01:26:20,508
And I think hashers should do that.

1535
01:26:20,628 --> 01:26:24,838
Like, uh, so if you're a hasher and you're listening to this, look

1536
01:26:24,838 --> 01:26:29,808
into this thing and, and consider switching from F2 pool or ant pool

1537
01:26:29,808 --> 01:26:31,478
or brains or whatever to ocean.

1538
01:26:32,113 --> 01:26:34,103
Especially Luxor, we don't like them.

1539
01:26:36,658 --> 01:26:39,128
if you say so, you're the security expert.

1540
01:26:39,638 --> 01:26:46,663
Um, so, uh, Yeah, and, but I've been, I've been thinking of ways of

1541
01:26:46,673 --> 01:26:51,223
framing this to normies and ways of, of, because it's hard to explain to

1542
01:26:51,223 --> 01:26:54,363
someone who's not in Bitcoin, right, what, what the hell this thing is.

1543
01:26:54,553 --> 01:26:55,223
the other problem.

1544
01:26:55,223 --> 01:26:59,113
It's like a collective action problem, and I just don't believe we sort

1545
01:26:59,113 --> 01:27:02,303
of have the numbers to be able to actually properly stop this thing.

1546
01:27:02,753 --> 01:27:08,483
And so I, I am sympathetic, I wish we could, I just don't believe we can.

1547
01:27:08,803 --> 01:27:11,283
And, uh, yeah, that's kind of where I'm at.

1548
01:27:12,018 --> 01:27:16,548
Yeah, so, so, but, but when I try to explain it to people, uh, anyway, I say

1549
01:27:16,548 --> 01:27:22,107
like, all data can be copied, a satoshi cannot be copied, a satoshi doesn't

1550
01:27:22,107 --> 01:27:25,947
even exist, but it sort of does, but it's in people's heads because it's a

1551
01:27:25,947 --> 01:27:29,687
secret we keep from one another, and it gives us the power to alter bitcoin

1552
01:27:29,697 --> 01:27:33,747
in a very specific way, like that's what the satoshi is, it's something

1553
01:27:33,747 --> 01:27:36,637
that can't be copied, so owning it.

1554
01:27:36,857 --> 01:27:42,267
Uh, a specific satoshi and some arbitrary data connected to it is like

1555
01:27:42,747 --> 01:27:45,047
naming a star in the Andromeda galaxy.

1556
01:27:45,647 --> 01:27:50,397
And the, the miners are akin to like people working in an observatory and

1557
01:27:50,397 --> 01:27:54,727
you're forcing them to spend their time, uh, naming this specific star

1558
01:27:54,727 --> 01:27:59,067
in the Andromeda galaxy instead of like observing, like, background

1559
01:27:59,067 --> 01:28:02,057
microwave radiation or whatever else they were doing that was more

1560
01:28:02,202 --> 01:28:06,082
but I would say at this point the problem is not that we disagree about

1561
01:28:06,082 --> 01:28:08,392
this Ordinal's, like, overlay or lens.

1562
01:28:08,622 --> 01:28:12,372
It's that a lot of other people like that lens of viewing Bitcoin, right?

1563
01:28:12,372 --> 01:28:14,372
I disagree with it, but that's what they're doing.

1564
01:28:14,392 --> 01:28:17,062
And we can't, whether we like that or not, we can't stop those other

1565
01:28:17,062 --> 01:28:19,812
people having that external view.

1566
01:28:20,107 --> 01:28:23,227
of the blockchain that they do this or that they that they are Liveraging

1567
01:28:23,227 --> 01:28:24,387
as part of the ordinals protocol.

1568
01:28:25,022 --> 01:28:28,282
But the problem is that it's, it's not a difference of opinion.

1569
01:28:28,312 --> 01:28:30,342
It's just, it's not a different view.

1570
01:28:30,342 --> 01:28:35,642
It's just a misinterpretation of what the, the, the time chain actually does.

1571
01:28:36,687 --> 01:28:40,397
They are imposing an external view, right?

1572
01:28:40,397 --> 01:28:44,587
Like it's it's like a subjective lens that they've all opted into.

1573
01:28:44,647 --> 01:28:45,477
I don't agree with it.

1574
01:28:45,527 --> 01:28:47,547
But that's that's what they've that's what they've done.

1575
01:28:47,687 --> 01:28:53,311
And so I don't I, I, I'm not as kind of, like, I don't think we have like

1576
01:28:53,311 --> 01:28:57,021
an objective way to say, nah, that's not really the reality, because they,

1577
01:28:57,031 --> 01:29:01,331
they, it is a made up scheme, like, as Casey Radama admitted on my show when

1578
01:29:01,331 --> 01:29:05,471
I interviewed him about Ordinals, it is a made up lens, it's a made up scheme.

1579
01:29:05,581 --> 01:29:07,361
It's just that all these people have opted into it.

1580
01:29:07,941 --> 01:29:11,391
And so, when all these other people have opted into it, how can we

1581
01:29:12,031 --> 01:29:16,901
realistically be like, Oh, no, they admit it's a made up scheme.

1582
01:29:17,181 --> 01:29:22,031
They just choose to opt into viewing it that way, regardless of those of

1583
01:29:22,031 --> 01:29:23,661
us who do not care about that scheme,

1584
01:29:23,981 --> 01:29:24,291
you know?

1585
01:29:24,381 --> 01:29:24,751
yeah.

1586
01:29:25,011 --> 01:29:27,691
So, so, is education key, then?

1587
01:29:27,981 --> 01:29:29,781
Like, to educate people about this?

1588
01:29:29,941 --> 01:29:31,791
Or will they ever learn?

1589
01:29:32,721 --> 01:29:37,921
I think, I believe they'll probably run out under their own steam anyway,

1590
01:29:38,371 --> 01:29:40,911
um, and so it's probably a passing fad.

1591
01:29:41,041 --> 01:29:45,431
Now, I could be wrong, maybe it does last, and so be it, I mean, I can't stop them.

1592
01:29:45,481 --> 01:29:47,661
I mean, that's part of the, that's part of the reality, right?

1593
01:29:47,661 --> 01:29:51,271
Like, if you look, if you talk to some of the, you know, very well technical

1594
01:29:51,331 --> 01:29:55,421
people in the space, people like Andrew Polstra, Peter Woller, various others,

1595
01:29:55,746 --> 01:29:58,606
They've sort of commented that, yeah, we don't see a principled way to stop

1596
01:29:58,606 --> 01:30:03,396
this or everything you try to use to stop this thing might end up hurting

1597
01:30:03,406 --> 01:30:05,146
Bitcoin or genuine Bitcoin users.

1598
01:30:05,366 --> 01:30:12,176
And so that's why I'm sort of, uh, I'm, I'm at a bit of a, I'm at a position where

1599
01:30:12,176 --> 01:30:14,396
I don't necessarily believe the filtering.

1600
01:30:14,786 --> 01:30:17,106
would work and that it might end up shooting ourselves

1601
01:30:17,106 --> 01:30:18,476
in the foot longer term.

1602
01:30:18,476 --> 01:30:21,956
And so that's why I don't take as kind of a hardline pro

1603
01:30:21,956 --> 01:30:24,306
filtering stance as others do.

1604
01:30:24,306 --> 01:30:27,286
I mean, I like Giacomo and I, you know, I like what the Ocean team are doing.

1605
01:30:27,326 --> 01:30:30,366
I just don't think the filtering approach will work.

1606
01:30:30,386 --> 01:30:31,656
That's kind of bottom line for me.

1607
01:30:32,665 --> 01:30:35,085
Yeah, it's, it's very tricky.

1608
01:30:35,265 --> 01:30:38,765
Um, I had something on my tongue here.

1609
01:30:39,105 --> 01:30:40,355
Um, what was that?

1610
01:30:40,595 --> 01:30:41,035
Um

1611
01:30:42,250 --> 01:30:43,610
Okay, I'll step in since Knut is here.

1612
01:30:44,690 --> 01:30:48,620
Uh, so, so, and, and I'm going to take us in another direction because

1613
01:30:48,620 --> 01:30:52,190
your, your, uh, your talk about this whole, uh, Ordinals thing, hopefully

1614
01:30:52,190 --> 01:30:56,310
it doesn't push us too far because I know we do have to wrap up soon ish.

1615
01:30:56,640 --> 01:31:00,560
Uh, you, you had a great conversation about the whole CTV.

1616
01:31:00,875 --> 01:31:01,295
Thing.

1617
01:31:01,355 --> 01:31:05,015
And, uh, what, what's going on, uh, with this, and, and this is just

1618
01:31:05,015 --> 01:31:09,635
another big thing in the, the space, and so can, can you quickly, uh, give

1619
01:31:09,640 --> 01:31:13,205
us a tldr r on your position on the, the CTV thing after you've, you've

1620
01:31:13,205 --> 01:31:14,645
had some in-depth discussion on that.

1621
01:31:15,040 --> 01:31:15,360
Yeah.

1622
01:31:15,360 --> 01:31:17,060
So I would say I'm.

1623
01:31:17,990 --> 01:31:23,140
I'm pro CTV, I'm pro, uh, I've seen a proposal called LNHance by

1624
01:31:23,160 --> 01:31:28,140
Brandon Black, and that would be CTV plus Chexsig from Stack plus

1625
01:31:28,210 --> 01:31:33,100
InternalKey, um, but I, I believe,

1626
01:31:34,015 --> 01:31:38,535
You need to give our listeners a TLDR on those abbreviations, I

1627
01:31:38,715 --> 01:31:38,835
Yeah.

1628
01:31:38,835 --> 01:31:40,155
Like, like what does it actually do?

1629
01:31:40,155 --> 01:31:40,515
What, what?

1630
01:31:40,515 --> 01:31:42,435
Like what do these things actually do?

1631
01:31:42,435 --> 01:31:46,005
I think, I think that's something that a lot of people don't really get.

1632
01:31:46,410 --> 01:31:51,090
right, I would say, um, my episodes with Brandon Black, uh, and another

1633
01:31:51,100 --> 01:31:54,370
recent one with Stephen Roos, uh, probably best to explain that, but

1634
01:31:54,370 --> 01:31:56,040
let me just give a kind of high level.

1635
01:31:56,350 --> 01:32:03,070
So, the idea with CTV is, um, You're sort of, you can set up a transaction,

1636
01:32:03,100 --> 01:32:07,370
like a template of a transaction and hash that and sort of check the that.

1637
01:32:07,600 --> 01:32:10,560
It's like a new opcode in Bitcoin scripting that allows

1638
01:32:10,590 --> 01:32:12,540
a new base level operation.

1639
01:32:12,710 --> 01:32:15,440
And so many people might be like, Oh, well, uh, you know, that's like

1640
01:32:15,880 --> 01:32:17,060
Is that a big change to Bitcoin?

1641
01:32:17,060 --> 01:32:20,460
Well, the answer is no, it's actually a very, very minimal change to Bitcoin.

1642
01:32:20,460 --> 01:32:23,360
It's not, it's, it's not, it's not on the same level as

1643
01:32:23,360 --> 01:32:24,730
something like SegWit and Taproot.

1644
01:32:24,730 --> 01:32:28,730
It's a much smaller change, but this small change would enable much more

1645
01:32:28,730 --> 01:32:34,400
scaling in terms of things like ARK or timeout trees or non interactive

1646
01:32:34,400 --> 01:32:37,660
channels or various other scaling ideas.

1647
01:32:38,175 --> 01:32:43,845
That could help us make Bitcoin accessible to more people in a self custody way.

1648
01:32:44,045 --> 01:32:48,045
And so that's why I'm interested in the idea because with Bitcoin as it

1649
01:32:48,045 --> 01:32:51,825
is today, the ballpark is somewhere between 10 million to 100 million people.

1650
01:32:51,995 --> 01:32:55,625
And if you really believe in Bitcoin for the world, then, you know, there's

1651
01:32:55,665 --> 01:32:58,975
8 billion people on Earth, there's probably another 300 million entities

1652
01:32:58,975 --> 01:33:00,515
like companies and things like that.

1653
01:33:00,945 --> 01:33:05,805
So, we're talking less than 1 percent of the world who can actually self custody.

1654
01:33:06,105 --> 01:33:10,085
And then that kind of raises the question, well, will that end up with Bitcoin

1655
01:33:10,095 --> 01:33:13,675
being centralised, or will that end up with challenging the 21 million limit

1656
01:33:13,675 --> 01:33:14,985
if there's all this fractional reserve?

1657
01:33:15,225 --> 01:33:17,285
I mean, it's an open question, I don't know for sure.

1658
01:33:17,545 --> 01:33:21,865
Uh, I think we're probably okay, even with no further changes, but I would

1659
01:33:21,865 --> 01:33:29,790
prefer to make it safer, and if we can use So techniques like covenants that

1660
01:33:29,820 --> 01:33:36,620
enable more self custodial scaling, then I think it's worth considering and it's

1661
01:33:36,620 --> 01:33:38,650
worth being open minded to those ideas.

1662
01:33:38,920 --> 01:33:42,120
And so CTV has been around for like four or five years.

1663
01:33:42,380 --> 01:33:46,880
I think most of the, there's no, as far as I can tell, there's no serious technical

1664
01:33:46,890 --> 01:33:48,460
developer objection to this thing.

1665
01:33:48,660 --> 01:33:51,480
The code has mostly stayed the same for that long and people

1666
01:33:51,490 --> 01:33:54,830
haven't found bugs in it, despite there being bug bounty for people.

1667
01:33:55,360 --> 01:33:57,960
Um, I mean there were like one or two small things that got changed

1668
01:33:57,960 --> 01:34:00,870
but not like consequential or saying like this is a big risk.

1669
01:34:01,500 --> 01:34:05,240
Um, so, that's why I would like for more people to consider the

1670
01:34:05,240 --> 01:34:08,030
idea, but, you know, like I said before, don't trust people just

1671
01:34:08,060 --> 01:34:08,880
because they're bitcoiners, right?

1672
01:34:08,880 --> 01:34:11,660
You have to try and do your own reading, understand it to the level that you can,

1673
01:34:11,850 --> 01:34:16,600
listen to the arguments for and against, try and read the BIP, read the code, try

1674
01:34:16,600 --> 01:34:17,760
and understand a little bit about it.

1675
01:34:18,635 --> 01:34:23,195
Yeah, I believe that it would help scale self custodial Bitcoin use, and that

1676
01:34:23,195 --> 01:34:24,585
that would be a good thing for the world.

1677
01:34:25,525 --> 01:34:29,145
Wasn't this also about like shitcoining on Bitcoin and smart contracts on

1678
01:34:29,145 --> 01:34:31,015
the blockchain and stuff like that?

1679
01:34:31,555 --> 01:34:38,082
Not really, I think that's um, I think this is more like enabling

1680
01:34:38,552 --> 01:34:41,372
new forms of layer 2 scaling.

1681
01:34:41,692 --> 01:34:45,352
So as a quick example, even to enable Lightning, we needed this thing

1682
01:34:45,352 --> 01:34:46,952
called Check Sequence Verify, right?

1683
01:34:46,952 --> 01:34:51,822
It's known as a relative time lock, and not going too deep into the detail, and I

1684
01:34:51,822 --> 01:34:55,437
wouldn't be able to explain it to that, to that level, but The short version of it is

1685
01:34:55,677 --> 01:35:00,857
when you route things over the Lightning Network, you are using a relative time

1686
01:35:00,857 --> 01:35:05,427
lock to make sure that the routing person is kind of making sure he's got the

1687
01:35:05,427 --> 01:35:09,377
coins, received the coins from upstream before he releases that HTLC downstream.

1688
01:35:09,597 --> 01:35:12,117
And part of what's achieving that is this relative time lock.

1689
01:35:12,367 --> 01:35:16,507
And so without this little fundamental building block, it's going to be

1690
01:35:16,507 --> 01:35:21,577
hard to find other ways to make non custodial scaling of Bitcoin happen.

1691
01:35:21,577 --> 01:35:24,297
And that's why CTV is like this very, very minimal change.

1692
01:35:24,612 --> 01:35:29,032
And this particular LN hands proposal is something that would enable some

1693
01:35:29,032 --> 01:35:33,052
of these CTV use cases and also LN symmetry, which is a big, um,

1694
01:35:33,082 --> 01:35:34,702
improvement for the Lightning Network.

1695
01:35:34,872 --> 01:35:39,192
It's like, uh, something that would make backups a lot easier, make, you know, the

1696
01:35:39,192 --> 01:35:40,892
use of the Lightning Network a lot better.

1697
01:35:41,342 --> 01:35:47,102
And so It could also potentially, in the future, it's not 100 percent certain,

1698
01:35:47,102 --> 01:35:50,222
but it could potentially enable this kind of multi party channel vision.

1699
01:35:50,242 --> 01:35:53,542
So instead of like a two party channel, we could have like a five party channel, or

1700
01:35:53,542 --> 01:35:55,492
a ten party channel, or more, potentially.

1701
01:35:55,912 --> 01:36:00,462
And so, obviously there's more research and development needed around these

1702
01:36:00,462 --> 01:36:05,702
things, but I believe that is a pathway to go to increase the number

1703
01:36:05,702 --> 01:36:07,712
of self custodial Bitcoin users.

1704
01:36:07,962 --> 01:36:12,647
Uh, and so, that's Why I think it's worth looking into and reading a bit

1705
01:36:12,647 --> 01:36:15,757
about it and just hear, at least hear, hear out some of the arguments for and

1706
01:36:15,757 --> 01:36:16,977
against, even if you're against it.

1707
01:36:17,942 --> 01:36:21,422
All right, we're gonna have to listen to those episodes, Luke, and can we

1708
01:36:21,422 --> 01:36:22,792
put them in the show notes, maybe?

1709
01:36:23,132 --> 01:36:25,302
Maybe you can send us the links afterwards, Stephan.

1710
01:36:25,322 --> 01:36:29,932
Uh, yeah, I just remember what my last Ordinals question was.

1711
01:36:30,517 --> 01:36:36,627
If the, if this is an attack, like, uh, and if the attacker has a money printer,

1712
01:36:36,997 --> 01:36:39,007
is this, is this a real threat to Bitcoin?

1713
01:36:39,027 --> 01:36:44,827
If, if the whole BRC20 token and JPEGs on the blockchain stuff is someone with

1714
01:36:44,827 --> 01:36:50,767
a money printer funding wizard people to, to, to, to clog the thing, is this, is

1715
01:36:50,767 --> 01:36:52,517
this an attack vector to be reckoned with?

1716
01:36:53,207 --> 01:36:59,157
My view on this, and I've spoken to a few developers, it's, I see it as, you

1717
01:36:59,157 --> 01:37:04,547
could argue that, okay, the UTXO bloat is bad and maybe there's some incremental

1718
01:37:04,557 --> 01:37:07,957
chain bloat in terms of running a node and things like that, but I don't

1719
01:37:07,957 --> 01:37:10,257
view it as a systemic issue, right?

1720
01:37:10,257 --> 01:37:15,147
It's more like, it's like a light, you know, issue or like annoyance

1721
01:37:15,147 --> 01:37:16,797
level, like, yeah, it's annoying.

1722
01:37:17,517 --> 01:37:20,827
Yeah, you could argue that in certain contexts, okay, there's a slight

1723
01:37:20,837 --> 01:37:24,427
monetary degrading because of, you know, the BRC, degen, spammers.

1724
01:37:24,767 --> 01:37:30,307
But fundamentally, it's almost, the way I'm seeing it, it's like bite the bullet.

1725
01:37:30,307 --> 01:37:34,927
Sometimes in life and in Bitcoin, we bite the bullet because trying

1726
01:37:34,927 --> 01:37:39,597
to do something will end up being worse than just tolerating it.

1727
01:37:39,697 --> 01:37:41,927
And I think over time.

1728
01:37:42,587 --> 01:37:45,057
These spammers, you know, it's probably a fad.

1729
01:37:45,147 --> 01:37:48,677
So I think it's probably just going to go away on its own if we just let it.

1730
01:37:48,697 --> 01:37:52,327
And remember, there have been fads that have come and gone too in the past.

1731
01:37:52,367 --> 01:37:56,977
Satoshi Dice or Omni or I think Veriblock even was another one.

1732
01:37:56,997 --> 01:37:59,757
So, you know, we've had spam attacks before.

1733
01:37:59,767 --> 01:38:02,987
We may have, we may have spam attacks in the future, but I think the long term

1734
01:38:03,047 --> 01:38:05,447
approach or answer is value density.

1735
01:38:05,617 --> 01:38:08,667
Packing more into each transaction, whether that's using Lightning

1736
01:38:08,667 --> 01:38:11,117
or other layer 2 ideas.

1737
01:38:11,782 --> 01:38:17,152
to help enable monetary transactions to outcompete the ordinal inscription

1738
01:38:17,162 --> 01:38:24,532
spam stuff, especially the BRC20 and STAMP stuff, but you know, that's

1739
01:38:24,532 --> 01:38:25,432
how I currently see it, right?

1740
01:38:25,432 --> 01:38:29,952
I don't think it's currently a systemic issue for Bitcoin, um,

1741
01:38:31,137 --> 01:38:35,187
Yeah, the question as to whether there are, you know, bad actors out

1742
01:38:35,187 --> 01:38:36,817
there trying to spam the network.

1743
01:38:37,327 --> 01:38:40,787
Remember, the network, you know, and Bitcoin Core developers, even

1744
01:38:40,787 --> 01:38:44,097
in 2017, around the time of all the SegWit stuff, they were designing

1745
01:38:44,097 --> 01:38:45,527
it in a very conservative way.

1746
01:38:45,527 --> 01:38:47,717
Like, it was designed in a conservative way.

1747
01:38:47,767 --> 01:38:52,007
We're, we're within tolerances, I think.

1748
01:38:52,017 --> 01:38:56,947
So, uh, I'm not like a super advanced technical developer, but this is

1749
01:38:56,947 --> 01:39:00,777
what, this is the impression I get from talking to different Bitcoin

1750
01:39:00,847 --> 01:39:03,727
developers and people in the space, that it's not a systemic issue.

1751
01:39:03,767 --> 01:39:04,827
It's kind of the bottom line.

1752
01:39:05,702 --> 01:39:10,662
So it's sort of like, uh, carbon emissions, like, uh, they're there, sure,

1753
01:39:10,662 --> 01:39:14,882
but doing something about them forcefully is probably, is probably going to lead

1754
01:39:14,882 --> 01:39:16,652
to worse results than just leaving them.

1755
01:39:17,497 --> 01:39:18,047
Yeah, probably.

1756
01:39:18,047 --> 01:39:18,587
And you know what?

1757
01:39:18,587 --> 01:39:20,657
There are some people who take, I mean, on the carbon thing, there are

1758
01:39:20,657 --> 01:39:23,177
some people who take a more hardline view of, hey, more carbon is better.

1759
01:39:23,197 --> 01:39:24,247
Like, we should be doing more.

1760
01:39:24,247 --> 01:39:25,927
So maybe it's even different to that.

1761
01:39:26,127 --> 01:39:29,697
Um, but yeah, I, I am not so worried.

1762
01:39:29,707 --> 01:39:31,967
I think we should just.

1763
01:39:32,867 --> 01:39:36,487
Not worry about that and just worry about, uh, advancing, you know,

1764
01:39:36,627 --> 01:39:41,157
Bitcoin adoption more broadly as a monetary and as a savings technology.

1765
01:39:42,592 --> 01:39:46,582
All right, that leads us directly to the somewhat cringey final question.

1766
01:39:46,822 --> 01:39:49,802
What are you doing to increase your freedom footprint, Stephan?

1767
01:39:50,883 --> 01:39:55,773
I'm just trying to spread Bitcoin and liberty, uh, adoption awareness in

1768
01:39:55,773 --> 01:39:59,493
whatever way I can and, uh, that's, you know, that's pretty much it.

1769
01:39:59,493 --> 01:40:03,468
I mean, I'm just trying to like, as I mentioned, there's a range

1770
01:40:03,468 --> 01:40:04,648
of different strategies, right?

1771
01:40:04,648 --> 01:40:07,228
Whether that's, you know, Bitcoin hodling, which is obviously the number

1772
01:40:07,228 --> 01:40:11,088
one thing, but also maybe a little bit of flag theory aspects, right?

1773
01:40:11,088 --> 01:40:17,198
I, I left Australia because I believe, you know, high taxes and just overall woke

1774
01:40:17,208 --> 01:40:23,653
socialist ideas in Australia were just too intolerable over time and Getting out

1775
01:40:23,703 --> 01:40:28,913
and looking at opportunities overseas is something that you can do to increase your

1776
01:40:29,113 --> 01:40:32,773
freedom and so that is something that I think more people should look at, right?

1777
01:40:33,183 --> 01:40:37,723
Let me leave you with this example from The Sovereign Individual.

1778
01:40:38,403 --> 01:40:42,963
Um, I can't remember the exact stat but I believe it was, um, if you saved

1779
01:40:43,113 --> 01:40:47,573
5, 000 every year in taxes and you could invest that at 10 percent every

1780
01:40:47,573 --> 01:40:51,513
year, So let's say you did that for 40 years, right, and every year you saved

1781
01:40:51,513 --> 01:40:56,733
5, 000 in taxes, it ends up being like 21 million dollars or something, like

1782
01:40:56,753 --> 01:40:59,493
20 million dollars at the end of, you know, at the end of that 40 year period.

1783
01:41:00,163 --> 01:41:05,893
And it's just absolutely, uh, sorry, I think it's 5 million, um, but

1784
01:41:05,913 --> 01:41:07,173
anyway, it's millions of dollars.

1785
01:41:07,413 --> 01:41:11,333
However way you, whichever way you slice it, it's millions of dollars in fiat

1786
01:41:11,333 --> 01:41:17,278
terms, and so getting more freedom, lowering your taxes, Can really make a

1787
01:41:17,278 --> 01:41:19,328
big difference to your family future.

1788
01:41:19,388 --> 01:41:22,598
And so that's one way to increase your freedom.

1789
01:41:24,188 --> 01:41:24,878
Fantastic!

1790
01:41:25,028 --> 01:41:28,498
And, uh, yeah, thank you so much for doing this with us, and, uh,

1791
01:41:28,508 --> 01:41:29,878
where can people find you online?

1792
01:41:29,888 --> 01:41:31,408
Like, what are we looking for?

1793
01:41:31,428 --> 01:41:32,638
So StephanLivera.

1794
01:41:32,678 --> 01:41:35,988
com, StephanLivera on X, StephanLivera on YouTube.

1795
01:41:36,018 --> 01:41:38,888
Basically, if you just search StephanLivera, people will find me there.

1796
01:41:39,478 --> 01:41:40,848
Yeah, you're not hard to find.

1797
01:41:41,558 --> 01:41:42,108
All right,

1798
01:41:42,208 --> 01:41:42,488
Right.

1799
01:41:42,668 --> 01:41:43,558
Well, thanks for having me guys.

1800
01:41:44,438 --> 01:41:44,918
thank you!

1801
01:41:45,233 --> 01:41:46,033
Yep, thanks a lot.

1802
01:41:46,093 --> 01:41:47,583
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.

1803
01:41:47,833 --> 01:41:48,563
Thanks for listening.