I don't
think that buying
and selling Bitcoin
will be an industry
in 10 to 15 years.
I'm a lot
more interested
in helping people
use bitcoin
in Self-custody.
I founded
and I'm still the
CEO of Bitcoin
well a non-custodial
Bitcoin platform.
Our mission
statement is
just simply
enable independence.
We are a freedom
focused company.
You cannot leave
funds on our platform.
I do believe that
my kids will grow up
in a world
where they can
just have a Bitcoin
well account.
They will not need
a bank account.
They'll be able to
send wire transfers
and buy a house
and do all the things
that they need
to do with
the fiat world.
Banks are
losing customers
because they will not
let their customers do
what they want
with their money.
Bitcoin comes along
and completely
disrupts their entire
being in their
entire business.
We no longer
need to gamble
our savings,
our value,
our futures
in order to just
simply survive
because
we've got money
that actually does
the work in
preserving the value.
Bitcoin fixes
a lot of things.
Absolutely.
Almost everything.
Then.
Adam welcome
to the Bitcoin
Infinity Show.
Thank you
for joining us.
Well thanks so
much for having me
I appreciate it.
Yeah. Welcome, Adam.
We since
we haven't had
you on
the show before,
could you start off
by giving
our listeners
a little tldr
on Adam O'Brian
and what you do?
What is the bitcoin?
Well, and how did you.
So yeah, I'm.
I'm Adam O'Brien.
I, I founded
and I'm still
the CEO of,
of bitcoin.
Well,
I've been doing that
since 2013.
So quite a
quite a while here.
I live in Alberta.
You know, personally,
I've got a wife and,
four kids, so we're,
you know, we're
we're right
in the thick of it.
But it's been
pretty fun.
We've been
able to travel
like we were
just got back from
El Salvador,
went to
adopting bitcoin.
We brought
three of the
four kids.
The small one
is just he
he he's just too much
right now
on the airplane.
So we left him
behind with grandma.
Brought the kids to do
the Bitcoin thing.
We're a family of
bitcoiners, man.
We we
really, really
understand.
Or at least
I think we do.
I'm sure in five years
I'll look back
and think, wow,
I didn't know a thing,
just like I always do.
But,
we understand
the importance
of generational,
you know, wealth
and freedom and,
and and why
that's so important.
We're raising our kids
in a, in a home
that values
that kind of stuff.
And it's,
Yeah, it's
an exciting ride.
So that's kind of
there's the 100,000ft
view of, of atom.
Bitcoin
well, is
a non-custodial
bitcoin platform.
We're actually
on a mission.
So our mission
statement is just,
just simply enable
independence.
We are a freedom
focused company.
You cannot leave
funds on our platform.
This is,
I think,
the number one
most important thing
for bitcoin platforms
is for
for broker
and custodian
to be split,
at minimum
and at best, obviously
for the end user,
the, the,
the beneficial owner
of the Bitcoin
needs to have,
you know,
full custody.
And so yeah,
it's definitely been
you know,
there's, there's ups
and downs
to this business,
to this industry.
But certainly running
a non-custodial
version of
of this business
is, is tricky. But
we're loving it.
We're doing it.
It's forcing us to
think differently
and be smarter.
And I think that
the consumer
benefits as a result.
So you
you called it
a platform.
What is that?
It's not like an
exchange or what?
What is the thing?
I, I have eradicated
the word exchange
from my vocabulary
when talking
about Bitcoin.
Well,
because we are
not a place where,
like an exchange,
it implies
that the place
you log in
does not own
the Bitcoin.
It's simply
a middleman
in between two
trading parties
to exchanging parties,
if you will.
Bitcoin
well is direct
to consumer
when you buy
bitcoin at Bitcoin
well that comes
out of our inventory.
You're not
trading with the guy
on the other side.
There's no bid and ask
there's just
simply a buy price
and a sell price
and and bitcoin.
Well is the
counterparty
in all of
those scenarios.
This is part of what
needs to happen
in, in,
in a
non-custodial business
because
you can't leave
funds on
the platform
will be very difficult
to be an exchange
with no one leaving
any funds on the,
on the platform.
So, so yeah.
And then platform
even further
than that,
I'm actually not
very interested
in solely buying
and selling Bitcoin.
I don't think that
buying and selling
Bitcoin will be
an industry in 10
to 15 years.
I'm a lot more
interested in,
in, in helping people
use Bitcoin
in Self-custody.
And so,
you know,
our mission statement,
as I said,
is to
enable independence.
And we do that
by making Bitcoin
and self-custody
easy to use,
kind of like
the convenience
of modern banking
with the benefits
of Bitcoin.
So benefits of Bitcoin
you can hold it
and control it
yourself.
You know
you've got
full access.
You can go anywhere
in the world.
It's all good.
But benefits of
of modern bank
or sorry
about convenience
of modern banking.
Like tap your phone
to pay for things
you know
pay bills online.
And so that
we developed
a platform
or part of
the platform is
being able to,
pay your bills
in Bitcoin.
So I,
I have my Amex card,
which I go
around tapping,
you know, to buy like,
you know, went to the
to the tire store
to get a new hitch
in, like whatever,
buy a coffee.
There's no chance
these chains
are going to be
any bitcoin
anytime soon.
And so we
tap the card,
tap the Amex card.
And then at the
end of the month
I just pay the bill
with Bitcoin
and off we go
I get to hold
my bitcoin
in Self-custody.
I'm not exposed to
the horrific Canadian
banking system.
Not that they want me
and and
and yeah, that's
that's it.
So I a platform
so much more
than just buy
and sell.
In fact in the States
I'm just rambling on
so I feel free
to cut me off
any time,
but I feel like
I'm going to
talk forever here.
Buckle up, listener.
We're in for it.
We're developing,
right now, a direct
deposit function
so you can send
you'll be able
to send your paycheck
or your stimulus check
or whatever
directly to Bitcoin.
Well,
and then you
can automate a portion
of that
going to Self-custody
and then
a portion of that
and then the rest
going back
to your bank.
But of course
the next step is
you can automate
a portion of that
to Self-custody.
And then you can
have your mortgage
or your car
payment or whatever
withdrawn
automatically from
that Bitcoin
real account.
And then of course,
the third step is
just have all of it
go to Self-custody
and then,
you know,
pay your bills
with Bitcoin
from Self-custody.
And so
that's really where
we're trying to push,
you know the
the code
that keeps coming to
mind is
be the change
that you want
the world
to see
or to be or
whatever the,
whatever the quotas
be the change.
And,
I do not want my kids
to have
the same exposure
to the legacy
financial system
that our
generation does.
And so
we need a platform
that enables people
to live on Bitcoin.
Yeah.
That's, how our
new book starts.
The, Bitcoin,
the inverse of clown
world, starts
with a very,
very tacky,
Michael Jackson quote.
If you want to make
the world
a better place,
take a look
at yourself
and then make
a change.
Wow, I love.
In the mirror.
Yes.
And the profound
truth there,
even though it sounds.
Yeah.
It's, you know what?
It's cliche and it's
whatever, but
how few people
actually do it.
We were chatting
last night
with some friends,
and it's like
we're talking about,
you know, we're
going through a book
together,
kind of like
part of a Bible study.
And I kind of made
the comment like,
look,
nothing was
revolutionary
in this chapter
for the last
few weeks.
But it's
a good reminder
that we have
to take action.
And like,
I know how to
how to have a 4% BMI
and A
and a six pack with,
you know, with a shirt
that is just
like fitting,
just perfect.
But guess what?
I'm not disciplined
enough to do that.
And and it's such,
so it's such a key
kind of component
I feel like to
knowing what to do
is really only
like 10%.
The other 90
is actually
getting it done
and doing it.
Yeah, but,
never judge
a book by its cover.
You don't have to have
a perfect
abs to be, to be fit.
You can
you can be
mentally fit.
That's right,
I like that.
That's what
I'm I'm in there.
The mental juggernaut.
Yeah.
No, but,
I mean, Michael
Jackson himself,
he changed,
he changed
from black man
to white woman.
But maybe
that's not
what he intended.
Like the song
lyric to be, but,
he's.
So it's to his own,
I guess.
For her or her.
Yeah, whatever.
I guess
I think we've
abandoned woke
ism at this point,
haven't we?
Like,
I feel like the world
has just ditched
that whole thing.
That was a bad idea.
Let's. Let's go.
Next thing.
It feels like it.
It became cool
to be conservative.
It became cool again.
Yeah.
You know,
you can see it in
the culture.
I've noticed
this shift
over the last.
Yeah,
probably started
about 12 months ago.
And then,
you know, certainly
over the election,
like,
I don't know how
many celebrities
came out Anti-woke,
over the last,
you know, six months.
And that is
just game changing.
No.
What people
are no longer
afraid of
cancel culture.
And I feel like
this is just,
you know, this is the,
the, the purest form
of, of a free market,
kind of like
swinging back
and forth
and back
and forth
and eventually
the path gets found.
Yeah,
there's a lot of the
sounds like
you've read
our book already,
because it
also feels like
it came out
like a month or two
too late,
because it's
addressing
the problems
that were there
like six months ago.
But maybe.
But then again,
the pendulum
you mentioned, that's
another chapter
of the book.
Like it
swings back and forth,
and I don't think
like the other side
of any political aisle
is necessarily
the answer.
The answer
is not to, to
to like turn the wheel
to another
spoke of the wheel.
It's to break
the wheels.
Yes. That's right.
I saw Gary
and said, like,
if we want to destroy
the whole
fucking thing
and throw politics
out the window
completely,
that's getting.
Rid of the
the the politicians.
Yeah, that's
the bastard.
Like we have
the evidence for us.
Well, that
that and the roads
and peace and.
Yeah, yeah.
Well it's
and it's like,
first of all,
they're not doing
a very good job
of that here
in Canada anyways.
So I don't know.
But there's this,
I've had this, this
kind of theory.
About, you know,
how do we get
to, to mass
bitcoin adoption,
when does it come
and you know,
the right naturally,
I think
adopted bitcoin simply
because it was the
left in power.
You know like
we have been
getting more
and more progressive
or left for the last
as long as I
can remember.
And so it feels
like naturally
freedom money
goes to the quote
unquote oppressed.
Now, I don't want to,
you know,
I'll use that word
very loosely
and lightly.
Let's, you know, be,
be sensitive,
but at the same time,
moving,
moving the pendulum.
So, you know,
we're moving now
all the way to
to the right,
it seems,
which is great,
which means the left
will eventually
be oppressed.
They will go to
the same things
that us
bitcoiners
have been going
through with the
financial banishment
and the,
you know, the state
calling you
or making up lies
about you and
and whatever
or whatever.
And then they too
will realize,
oh hey, Bitcoin
is nonpartisan.
Bitcoin
is something
that I can
benefit from
within my ideology.
It'll probably change
that ideology
quite a bit
because Bitcoin
changes you
and kind of forces you
to think more
and not just,
you know,
act on emotion,
but it will still,
you know,
it will still be
there as
a freedom tool.
And then
at that point,
I think is
when we get to this
hyper bitcoin
ized,
spot,
when both sides of
the aisle
have realized
that is is in fact
the aisle
that is the problem.
And yeah.
And and we can
you know
Bitcoin is like
the bridge
between the aisle
to actually
getting society,
getting humanity
into this spot
that is
that is better.
And I'm.
Or is the bridge
to shore from
from the
or the bridge
to the lifeboat
rather than
within the aisles?
It's away
from both sides
of the aisle.
Yes. Yes, absolutely.
Pick your brain
on one thing.
You mentioned like
mass adoption.
So.
So here's a,
a slightly
unpopular opinion.
And,
I think it's
more important
for all the money
to adopt Bitcoin
than for all
the people
to adopt Bitcoin.
And the reason
I say that
is that
the more wealth
that is
held in
actual self-custody,
as opposed to
ETFs and all of this,
other
fiat world nonsense,
you know,
transitory things
from, from
the legacy system to,
to hyper
bitcoin ization.
I think the, the,
the more people
that are
actually
self-sovereign
and have
a lot of bitcoin
and self-custody their
are the
the more powerful
we become
as a political force
in ourselves.
Like that's
where we can really
start influencing,
you know, regulators
and lawmakers
and such like,
and really
pay ourselves
off the trouble of
because at
the end of the day,
that's what
it's all about.
If you got
enough money,
you can stay
out of trouble.
You can pay
for your own
fucking
defense system,
like guess.
And I
and I realize
I swear a lot here,
but what are
your thoughts? Yeah.
So what do you
what do you mean
exactly
by all the like,
what's the difference
between the money
and the people?
So, so
I, I don't view
Bitcoin as
being for everybody,
but for anybody
like Bitcoin
is for anybody
because not
everyone is suitable
or capable
of of the
taking care
of their own shit.
Like there's
a lot of people
that sort of need,
a provider
and that could be
anything from
your senile mum
to your kids
to to
whoever else
in your family
needs your support.
Well,
what I, what
I'm sure of
is that the, you know,
supportive of
head of the family
is a more suitable
provider
of that stuff
than the state.
What what what
we've done
today is that
we've outsourced
all the responsibility
to the state.
So everyone becomes,
a victim
because it's
profitable to be
victim like,
everyone becomes a,
benefit
instead of a provider.
And I think that's,
like the real thing
to fix here,
to get away from that.
So that
responsibility,
inherently
responsible people
can start taking some,
some damn
responsibility
for their own lives
and their own,
happiness like,
and their
and their families,
because it's
the freedom
responsibility coin.
So, so yeah,
that's what I mean
by the money
getting into Bitcoin
is that the more
the more influence
you have over
other people.
So like the more
which is
sort of equivalent
to how much
wealth you have,
because you can
use that wealth
to buy stuff.
And by doing that
you sort of vote
with your wallet
on what gets,
promoted in
the market.
So, so I think it's,
it's more
important for
someone like Elon
Musk to become,
orange peel than,
than your average
truck driver, Igor.
The truck driver
in Canada, like,
so, but,
and this might be,
somewhat,
controversial
take, but I'd
just like to
hear your thoughts
on it.
Yeah.
I mean,
I think that you're
probably on to it
with.
It's that
it's for anybody.
Not not everybody.
But I think that it,
it employs
kind of a
natural growth and,
or natural
selection behind
who does or
who can adopt it.
I think
that eventually
if you cannot adopt
a Bitcoin standard,
you're kind of toast
if you can't
figure out
how to self-custody,
you will
inevitably become
a, a slave.
But I but I,
I think that
the incentive to learn
Bitcoin is so great
that 1 to
2 generations
and you will be
in fantastic like the
I think it's just
it's adopt or die.
And I
think that you're
probably correct
as far as who's
more important,
it's hard to say.
I think that,
you know,
what's better, the
smart man with,
you know,
this, the smart man
who can gain nothing,
or the hungry
man who has
everything to gain.
And it's it's
it's an interesting
kind of thought
exercise where,
you know, I,
I look back at my life
and who
I've worked with.
And sometimes
the smartest isn't
always the
best choice.
They're not always
going to have your,
your back.
It's definitely
the one
that is hungriest
with the
aligned incentives
that are
that it's
going to be best,
for whatever
I needed best to be.
And so I feel like,
you know,
certainly, Elon
getting orange pilled
would be positive.
He's got a big
influence
and lots of
other people.
But I wonder
if that actually hurts
because
people just do
what Elon says.
They don't actually
go down the orange
pill rabbit hole.
No.
And this is
so interesting
because the same
is true for like,
this, this,
this question of,
what would you prefer,
a pro
bitcoin politician
or an anti
bitcoin politician?
Because there are
there are two sides
to that coin. Right.
Like if, if,
if you let a
politician dictate
whether you can
or cannot run a node,
you're sort of
missing the point.
The point is that
I'm running the node
because
because fuck you,
I won't do
what you tell me.
That's the
that's the
reason like,
and you don't
really get there
if it's not
permissionless,
if it's permissioned.
Totally.
And, and
but the,
the other side to
that is like this pro
bitcoin stuff.
I feel like we
as Bitcoiners
have moved very,
very quickly
to just LARPing
for the state.
And it, it, it
it is worrisome to me.
I share these same
these same convictions
and these
same worries.
I think and
it inevitably
doesn't matter.
I think that what
the release
that's happening
right now
universally
is Bitcoiners
being told
they were wrong
for so long,
being told
they were foolish
for so for so long.
And now what
you're suggesting
the Elon
Musks of the world
are like,
oh, this guy
has had it right
the whole time.
And we're like,
you know,
for some reason,
all of a sudden
the validation
that we
apparently didn't
care about and the,
you know, the pat
on the back
that we, you know,
I thought
didn't care about,
is very,
very important to us.
And we're like more,
more, more,
more, more.
And it's,
yeah, it's
an interesting
dynamic.
Yeah.
And it's
kind of sad
because I hate,
to see Bitcoiners
sucking up to
politicians and, Yeah.
And I understand
the appeal of Trump,
like, because he's,
in many ways the
opposite of
a politician.
Like his
his rhetoric
is like the opposite
of what
a quote unquote
normal politician
would say.
And I can see
why people like that.
It's the rebellion
of the of the thing.
But but
just the other day
he tweeted something
like,
Bitcoin's over 100 K,
dollars.
You're well,
you're welcome.
And what he doesn't
realize like, like
Donald.
You're welcome.
Yeah.
You're in debt to us,
not the other way
around.
Like Bitcoin
helped you
more than you
helped it.
Sure,
there's a
bull bull market
and everything,
but the fundamentals
are still the same.
And it's
you are going to
be the dinosaur.
Like you're
the one facing
the asteroid here.
The asteroid
doesn't care,
that you think
that you made
the asteroid stronger
or weaker, like
the asteroid
is still
coming for you,
and you're
still a dinosaur,
like.
So 100%.
Well, yeah, he. Yeah.
I mean,
probably like
to be fair
in, in the short
term, like,
it certainly lines up
that the pro Bitcoin
administration
is giving
Wall Street the,
you know the courage
or whatever
to to
enter the market. But
I don't think
bitcoin needed that.
I think
the price of Bitcoin
probably needed that
in the short term.
But I think
oh on the macro
like my kids in 2078,
the price of Bitcoin
doesn't care
who the president was
in 2025.
Like it's
just it's
a non it's a non-issue
for Bitcoin
on the long term.
So on the micro
you know probably if
Kamala gets in
Bitcoin dumps
because like
you know
she's a communist
that hates freedom.
And so freedom money
doesn't do well
under that
administration
on the micro.
That said
I think
the three of us
and I'll speak
for you guys
and you can tell me
where I went wrong,
is we don't really
the short term price
is less
important to me
probably than
it's ever been,
because I'm
so focused on
building responsible
children and heirs
that can
take the torch,
so to speak.
And frankly,
you know, the
the higher
the price of
Bitcoin goes,
probably the
more difficult
that's going to be
to like teach
that responsibility
and the more
discipline that
will be required.
And so,
yeah, I think that,
you know,
Trump taking
credit is horribly
un bitcoin.
It's horribly,
you know, shows
and I and I watched
both him and RFK
and Nashville.
Trump has no idea
what he's
talking about.
He's he's reading
a script
that someone
semi knowledgeable
wrote for him.
He's got he's
got no clue.
RFK, though,
he has it.
RFK is fully
in the trenches.
He is with us.
He understands the big
the big.
Yeah,
he understands
the protocol and and
and the
importance of it.
And that's
cool to see,
but I think largely
irrelevant to
the macro.
Yeah, I totally agree.
And like.
But for all
the Trump tweet,
don't get me wrong,
I, I still,
appreciate
the trolling
nature of
his character
like that.
He,
he sees an opportunity
to troll someone
and it just
it regardless of what
people are going
to think about him.
It's fun to.
See that, right?
Yeah. Unprecedented.
Nice.
Yeah.
No.
So, so
so it's
still very funny, but.
Yeah.
And I totally agree.
This is for the
the long run
and everything.
The way I look at
it is like,
this thing is
going to play out
in one way or another,
and we're living
in the timeline
that we do.
We can't really alter
what happens.
We can alter move.
We can influence
our friends here
and there,
and we can do this
and that.
But on a
grander scale,
we all we can do
is just sit back
and enjoy the show
and grab the popcorn
and see that, like,
and that's the way
to tackle this.
Just relax,
keep on hodling.
Stay humble.
Stack those SATs
if you can.
Or just sit there
and don't overspend
or anything
stupid like that.
Don't fall
into any luxury
luxury traps.
Just leave it.
Just enjoy the ride.
It's a great show.
It's the greatest show
on Earth.
Well, it's it's that.
But it also inherently
teaches us
to stop this,
this guise
of of investing,
of gambling
in order to preserve
purchasing power.
It actually, Bitcoin
really incentivizes
us to
go provide value.
The only way
you get to stack
SATs is by
providing value
to someone
or some other
group of people.
That's the only way
you get to do it.
And Bitcoin
is just a tool
to preserve
that value.
And so like,
you know,
speaking about
what are
we supposed to do
right now.
It's like sit back,
watch the ride
and figure out
how to provide value.
Build
your business, build
your skills,
build your value
creation mechanism
so that you
have the ability
to go out.
And it doesn't matter.
Bitcoin at
100 K
or Bitcoin
at 100 million
is completely
irrelevant
because you
want to provide
value in the future
and lock that value
for an even
further future.
And I think
that that's
that's the holy grail.
And so as humanity,
if we're just
focused on
how do we provide
the most value,
I think the world's
gonna look
pretty sweet.
Yeah.
And it's
there's a flip
side to that.
The only way
to get anything
out of value
back for your assets
is to actually
spend them.
Like, you can't
you can't
play the Fiat
Fiat games and
and leverage
the fact that you have
more than others
and get cheaper
loans and stuff.
That doesn't
work at all
as well on Bitcoin
as it does on fiat.
Totally.
I see
all these larps on
X talking
like I never sell
a bitcoin
and I always
respond, oh,
that's fine,
you just aren't
all in yet.
And they're like,
oh, I'm a bit,
I'm a maxi.
I'm all in.
What are you
talking about?
It's like, well,
if you don't
spend bitcoin,
I mean you're eating.
How do you survive?
Yeah, yeah.
You have a house
I assume.
Like you drive a car,
you go have
a coffee, use
you have shoes
on your feet.
How do you
how do you buy that.
Well I use my feet.
It's like,
oh yeah,
you have fiat.
So you're not all in.
That's fine.
You just aren't
all in, like,
cool it with this.
Like I. Am.
So good
because I am maxi.
I never sell
diamond hands.
It's like, no,
that's not
how money works.
Money works
in such a way
where you
provide value,
you receive money,
some unit of account,
and then you spend
less than that.
And the future of you
benefits for the
for the delta.
And it's like
be all in
and spend SATs.
That's why
you have to do.
Spend and replace
right?
Yeah.
Spend and
spend and replace
like or even just work
and then spend
like working
then spend with that.
That is
that is replacing
right. Yeah. Yeah.
Exactly. Exactly.
It's like it's it's
kind of like
what's, what's the
what's the replaces
is a is
a future tense.
What's the previous
tense is just
spending like,
it's like
if you work
and make one widget
and you can live on
point five,
then you do
a good thing,
that's great.
You get, you know,
you get to save point
five of your value.
And that's,
that's remarkable.
So I think it's like,
it's a consumption
versus production
kind of formula
that the world
just needs
to completely
unlearn
the old formula
and now relearn
the Bitcoin formula,
which is it's a
it's a culture shift
across the planet
like it is.
It is insane.
Going from a
credit system
to a money
system
is astronomical.
No, it's it's
absolutely insane
because you
literally have
to unlearn everything
you've learned
about
commerce and money
and finance
and all of it.
Totally.
Because like on, on a
in a hyper
bitcoin eyes
where it's not gold,
it's, it's
way, way, way
more resistant
to inflation
than gold.
Because but
the more miners
that come online, the,
the more gold
is produced
per time unit.
Not true for Bitcoin.
It stays the same.
The issuance rate
stays the same.
And we're
almost there.
We're
almost mined all the
all the bitcoins
like the last coin
will take like
40 years to find.
I know that
blew my mind
when I heard that
that something
like in 20 years,
the block
reward will be like,
what is it,
30,000 sats
or something?
Yeah, yeah.
It's like,
it's like 92%
the first 12 years
and then
5% the next 12 years,
and then,
yeah, that's it.
The last 3%.
That's the other
hundred years.
And most people.
Like I struggle.
Look,
I guess
I can kind of see
their point around
like gold
but struggling
to get in here.
They have a hard time
detaching
the physicality from
the digital realm.
But the digital
nature is actually
the only reason
Bitcoin can work,
because you're able
to actually
amass value
without your costs
rising.
Holt storing
$100 million of gold
is very
very difficult.
Difficult
to spend, difficult
to move.
The physical
restraints
of previous
versions of money
have have been
impossible to,
to overcome.
And now,
I mean, the fact
that you can carry
around
generational wealth
on an SD card
is pretty insane.
Yeah.
Are you
aware of the
idea of element zero?
No, I don't think so.
This is
this is an idea
I heard from,
a grape
by Corona
called your hamster.
So I had to, like,
when I saw it,
like you gave
a presentation,
about it.
But his kind of nerdy
presentation,
it's a German guy,
so he's got this
German accent
and speaks
in a very
engineering way.
So I thought
this has to go
into my book.
So he went into the
everything divided
book, and I
rewrote it and,
tried to make
it more like,
entertaining.
I don't know if I
succeeded or not,
but we made a,
a little video
out of it,
called Element Zeros.
If you Google
Bitcoin element
zero, there's
an animation by a guy
called the Yoni
Apple berg. And,
yeah, it's
about how the,
you can, you can,
view Bitcoin as a,
as a new element
on the periodic table,
but it differs
from all other
elements
because it doesn't
have protons
or neutrons,
only electrons.
So it's an it's
an element
without completely
without mass,
which means that
it's made up
entirely out
of information.
But it behaves
like an element
in the sense
that you can't
destroy it
very easily
without without
massive amounts
of energy,
and you can't
create more of it
without massive
amounts of energy.
Or you can
create that other
thing there.
But
in all other senses
it sort of
behaves like,
an element.
But since it's made
up of information,
only the information
about the element
is the element.
There is
no distinction
between
the information
about it.
And it's. All.
So a which is,
and, you know,
as you know,
like knowing
the secret,
knowing a private key
to a,
that unlocks
a certain amount
of satoshis
is those satoshis
that they're the one
and the same.
The satoshis
don't really exist.
They don't know
the Satoshi's.
The ability to move.
The satoshis
is never online.
It's only a is.
It's only
and can only be
within a human mind
somewhere.
It's always someone
keeping a secret
from someone else.
And the only reason
that we think
that this
secret is worth
something is
because we know
the improbability
of someone else
guessing the
secret correctly.
So?
So yeah, I like that.
Yes, but
but at the end
of the day, it's
just information
just isn't.
It's just a
goddamn number
or it's just 12.
God. Binary truth.
Yeah, it's binary too.
It's just just
flip flop, flip
flop flip flip
flip flip flop,
flip of a flip,
flip flop flop, flip
flip flop, flip flop.
That's a
Bitcoin private key.
And you can, you
can throw a dice,
99 times
or flip
a coin 256 times
and you have a
Bitcoin address
that you can send
Bitcoin to. Right.
Or you give. Me
on my test.
But we just made
these little.
Oh you.
Call him
we call them
entropy pouches.
Yeah. Yeah.
And it's a little tiny
pouch which has
and it comes with 50
50 tiny tiny dice.
We actually
I didn't think 100
would fit, but it.
Well, I was just.
I'm like, hey,
we say roll it
three times,
I roll the dice
three times,
but we're
going to just
add 100 in,
and then you just get
all your entropy
in one. Yeah.
And it is, it is,
it is so empowering
to think
that you can
literally do
as you say,
roll a dice
100 times
and have entropy
for generations.
Hang on a minute.
Other 16 sided die.
Yeah.
So there there are.
There's a 20
and the 12
I know those
and the T ten
and the T four
and the T six
and the T eight.
But is there a T 16 I.
I'm pretty sure there,
there is.
I saw one at in
El Salvador
at the Bitcoin
hardware store.
There's
there's a die and it's
I'm trying to think
I'm pretty sure it is,
16 sided and,
but it's all zeros
and ones.
Have you seen that?
The I've seen
all zeros and ones.
But like that, the,
the reason
I'm saying 16
sided is
of course hexadecimal.
So it would be like so
123456789 abs
to up to f.
Okay.
And know
I don't either.
So you know
that actually
actually a roll it.
Like how many
how many letters
are there.
Like how many digits.
That's like
30 or something.
So you could actually,
roll a 16 sided die
30 times.
Am I doing the math
right here?
Who's good with maths?
No. Okay.
I don't know.
You're you've
definitely lost me.
I, I just like
the little six
sided die
that you roll
100 times. That seems.
Yeah, yeah,
I just,
the most obvious
one to do, but
it is cool for.
Well, two things
coming to mind there.
One, the fact
that we can
just do
that offline
with something
that my four year
old plays with
is pretty sick.
But then
the other one
is, the fact
that you can do it
multiple
different ways
to achieve,
you know,
a different result
in the same way.
It's like, yeah,
you know, it's
not just dice it
or it's
not just numbers.
They can be numbers
and letters
and it just all
word randomness.
All we need is entropy
and randomness
in order to
preserve our value.
And that's
such an empowering
I, I know that's more
of a cryptography
thing than a
money thing.
And that's
and that's the basis
of, of
of cryptography,
primarily for
information.
But Satoshi's genius
to look at money
as information.
It is truly something
that we don't
talk about enough.
We don't marvel
in the fact that
that perspective shift
changed the course
of history.
No, I talk about this
all the time
because, like,
I think it's such
an underrated
aspect of
it is the aspect
that is like
that changes
everything.
Because what
it means
that these things
are only stored
in people's heads
is that we
are our bitcoins,
and I can't
get that thought
out of my head.
I can't like
this thing lives
within us.
We are it
and it is us.
And whoever
is connected to it,
whoever on some is.
And it's
the other bitcoiners,
brother or sister,
whether you want
to be or not.
Because you're
part of the same body
now, you're
part of the
same organism.
You're incentivized
to help
the other Bitcoiners.
You can't
get away from that.
Like if you don't,
you lose like.
And if you do, you you
if if I help you, Adam
with anything,
I benefits.
Yes.
And and
it will be like
this forever.
But only
those who are,
who are
who are,
who have
realized that. See it.
And when once
you see that
like Bitcoin is,
what do we call it?
This like
truth goggles
and a mirror
at the same time.
So it's a way
to view the world
through a lens,
a lens
and a mirror
at the same time.
So it's like a mirror
is a lens.
But anyway,
you can
view yourself
through it,
and you can view
the rest of the world
through it.
And you can see
that, like,
you are
truly connected
to every
other Bitcoin,
like in
a, in a flesh
and blood sense,
forever.
And it
changes everything.
That this concept is
the fact
that money has ever
not been that way,
frankly, is a
bit offensive
because money
is but a tool.
You know,
people are
probably going
to listen to you
and, and
an army would say, oh,
you know, this is
this is blasphemous.
This this is not it.
You know,
you are not Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is money
and whatever.
But when we
think about, well,
what is money?
Well money
holds holds value.
And then how do you
how do you get value.
Well you spend
your time
producing value
with your hands,
your efforts
and your brain
and
and then you
receive something
to represent
the time
that you've spent,
the value that you,
that you've created
with your time
and so
if you think about,
you know,
if you, if you
if you agree that time
equals value,
value equals money,
then you can just
remove value.
Time equals money
and the
human's spending
their time
is going to
trade it for money,
which means
the money is simply
a reflection of us
as, as human beings.
When we spend
our time to
in order to
earn money,
we are
frankly, trading
time for money.
Which again
means the money
is just simply
a representation
of our time.
And when you have
something else
blowing that up,
you've given
someone else domain
over your time.
Yeah.
And, you're, you're
you're giving up
your time for someone.
You let other people
kill your time.
It was for you to kill
all the time.
Like,
you're letting others
steal it
while it was
for you to kill.
And the thing
is, like, the time
equals value.
You can't,
I don't
really buy that.
But what I do buy
is that,
money gives you a way
of evaluating
how well
you spend your time.
So the market,
a pure market signal,
which you can
only find
with Bitcoin,
is telling you
that if you
it is telling you
if you're
spending your time
in a good way or not.
So like
if you're
making more sets
by doing
the things you do,
you should be
happy about yourself.
Your your.
That was time
well spent. Yes, yes.
Well and
and but
not necessarily that.
Just if you can,
if you can live
within your means,
if you have more
purchasing power
tomorrow than today,
then you're fine.
Forever. Like.
And if that means,
you know, you only
you stacked way back
and now you're
just sitting there
spending more time
with your family.
Well, good on you.
Well, only it's like
it's it's
telling you
if you're playing
this thing
right or not.
And that.
It's a.
That depends on how
the rest of
the world is doing.
So like if,
if there's,
a disaster,
then everyone
needs to chip in
because you can't
just sit on your ass
and and
let your purchasing
power increase
because that
won't work
in that scenario.
But if it does work
in a scenario
where everyone
is working for
everyone else,
and with Bitcoin,
it's just telling us
what what should be
obvious
should have
been obvious all along
that we're better off
cooperating
than addressing
against one another.
Yes, because that's
the only thing we took
out of the equation
is the aggression
that you
can't steal it.
You can't make
more of it. You can't.
You can't steal,
you can't aggress,
you can't violate
someone else's
property.
Their the. Aggression.
Everything is good.
And we're
I feel like we are,
yeah.
Bitcoin forces you
to obey the the
the cobra effect
as you will.
And and it
it aligns incentives
in the way
that you have
described.
We've got now
a monetary system
where unilaterally
everyone
has the opportunity
to participate.
But to your point
not everyone can
or will do it equally.
And so it
creates this.
It's like I'm
not going to worry
about fighting
everybody else.
I'm going to work
internally.
I'm going to
work on myself
so that I'm
able to produce
more sort of
I can get a
bigger piece
of the pie.
This is a pure form
of meritocracy.
This is meritocracy,
money.
This is like
this is the holy grail
of aligned incentives.
Rather than,
you know,
where we are today.
We just did a video,
on corporate ocracy,
which is a newer term
that I had not not
heard of,
which is basically,
you know,
large corporations
effectively
being an arm
of the government,
an arm of the state.
The state
is going to
put pressure on
and then reward
those that respond.
And,
when it becomes
more efficient
to lobby the state,
then to do R&D
and market
your business,
you can see a decline
in society.
It's no longer
providing
the most amount
of people value.
You're providing those
with the most power
value.
And Bitcoin
completely flips
that script,
which again
makes me super bullish
on the future.
No,
the opposite of
quality is
not inequality.
It's equality.
Yeah, right.
100%.
Yeah.
You said
something intrigued me
there.
The cobra effect.
What is that?
So the cobra effect
stems back,
and actually,
it's funny,
I say this
as if it's fact.
I don't think
there's documented
record of this,
but we will.
Let's just assume
that there is
and we'll take it
as fact.
But the
the thesis holds true
either way.
When the
British government
took over
India in the 15,
1600s,
there was a
cobra problem.
The, the
the the nation
of India was overrun
with cobras.
It was eating
like children
and citizens.
And the
British government
said,
we can't have this.
We must
kill the Cobra.
And they
put a bounty out
on the head of a cobra
so that any individual
could go out,
find a cobra,
kill the cobra,
take its head
back to the government
and say, here you go.
And they would get
a wage of some
of some sort,
which on the
surface sounds very,
very good.
But like every
artificial force
entering into a
natural environment,
there are secondary
and tertiary
consequences.
So what happened?
Well,
people started
breeding cobras
so they would
capture them.
They would not kill them
and they would
breed them.
And then, you know,
over the course
of this breeding time,
they would bring
in ten cobras,
all for the state
to give them
ten wages.
And now the state
has a choice.
We can, you know,
the Cobras are
still going down.
The Cobras
are contained.
This is less cobra
accidents per capita,
but we're
getting taken
advantage of.
Of course, the
the monarchy hates
being taken
advantage of.
So away with this
Cobra wage.
And what do you think
the farmers did
with all of
their cobras?
Well, out
they go into the wild.
Why would I
farm cobras?
Why would I
kill a cobra
when I'm no longer
getting paid to do so?
And so in effect,
after I,
you know, whatever
the amount
of time was,
the Cobra problem
got infinitely worse.
And there was now
more cobras,
in the wild,
killing more citizens
after this
unnatural force
came in
with, frankly,
the best intentions.
You know,
sometimes I do believe
the state is evil
in a lot of ways.
But I don't
believe that
everything they do,
has mal intent.
They just doesn't.
Have.
The. Exactly.
They're just ignoring
the cobra effect.
They're
ignoring physics
that, you know,
I can't have all the
the happy intent
in the world
jumping off a cliff
and flapping my arms.
I'm just going
to tumble.
Physics doesn't work
that way.
And the same way,
you know,
the British government
had all the
positive vibes
that just
gave messed up.
You cannot no, no
natural forces in.
This is,
I believe this story
to be true.
I've heard it
many times
before, and
I have no reason
to doubt
its truthfulness.
And,
I mean, you see it
everywhere,
but the thing is that
politicians
don't realize
is that you get
what you pay for,
but they don't
understand what
they're paying for.
So if you're paying in
non-pro active people,
then you get
non productivity.
That's that's
what you're paying for
and that's
what you're gonna get.
And if you pay for
people to be sick
then you get sick.
People.
The people the
the people have
the incentive
to be sick.
If you pay
pensions you get,
you know, old people
and
you'll get people
that no longer work
like this is
this is like,
so, so I think that's
that's the key.
Like, and that's,
why politicians are
so ill fit for the,
for the jobs
because they, they,
they are themselves
not incentivized
to understand
what they're
paying for
because they don't
have to care,
because they're
paying other people
with other
people's money.
Yeah.
So they know
that's incentivized.
Not only are they
not incentivized,
they are
the incentivized.
Yeah.
They they're
life gets worse
if they adopt
sound money,
you know,
based principles.
And that's a problem.
That's a big problem.
Yeah.
And it's,
but but I find it
so fascinating,
I keep falling
for the same thing
over and over again
and know that we
human beings
like that,
it's like this, this
constant struggle
between
I look at as
between barbarism
and civilization
or between,
fang and claw and,
and free
market competition.
Because I think
they're diametrically
opposite, like
they are.
Either we do things
by collaborating
or we do, like, there
there are two ways of
of finding
the correct owner
for a thing,
a good or a service
or whatever,
or a piece of land.
And that is,
either
you find it out
on the market
or you fight for it.
And so, so
there's
a civilized way
to do things
and a barbaric way
of doing things.
And Bitcoin cannot do
the barbaric thing.
It can only do
the civilized thing.
So like, yeah.
Yeah.
What do you think.
And so
why do you think it
is that
so many people
don't understand that
like like,
because what
you're saying
makes 100% sense
to me.
Seems very logical.
Yeah.
Because I think that,
we are so used like,
hundreds and hundreds
of generations
of fraudulent money,
like,
this is not, it's
not anything new.
And, like,
even on a
gold standard,
gold isn't
absolutely finite
or absolutely scarce.
Look at China
recently.
You see that?
They just. Yeah.
Yeah. They found.
The gold. Yeah. Yeah.
So, so and,
all of a sudden
these things
are found.
But like with
we've lived with this,
inherent lie
in the way
we conduct
our business
since forever.
So, so I think
it's and, you know,
making money,
especially making
money fast
and, has
always been to, to a,
greater or lesser
extent on
at someone
else's expense.
And the fact that
it doesn't
have to be at all ever
is very hard
for people
to get in their
into their heads,
because everyone see
that thinks that like,
that does
not possible.
Just every
person on earth
getting richer
without anyone losing.
Like it's
a very hard
thing to imagine.
You think it will
once we.
I actually don't think
we will have
every person on
earth getting richer.
Once let's
assume Bitcoin is
is the is
this is it
now with like Bitcoin
I,
I feel like it
just it's
just stabilizes
everything and
the value
just transfers
to the most
like the most valuable
individuals.
That you know.
Okay.
I slightly
differ here.
I think we can have
like richer
all the time
for everyone
if we truly get hyper
bitcoin.
I, I do think
the purchasing power
goes up forever
because like the year
the every new good
or a service
that is put into
the Bitcoin economy
makes it
bigger
and makes the
pie bigger
for everyone in it.
And I think that
that's a process
that never stops.
But what does change,
though, is
people's behavior.
Because when
you have money
that will
grow in value
over time forever,
you will refer
from defer
from spending
like you will not be.
As you're
not incentivized
to spend
as much anymore.
You are
incentivized to
to be careful
with what
you use
your bitcoins for
or your satoshis for.
So.
So I think in the end,
like we'll
be helping
each other out,
a lot more
and only spent SATs
like a few
few times
per life, maybe.
So for really
big things to move
things around and
the rest will just be,
somewhat of a utopian.
We can all help one
another really
get along.
Value for value.
Good,
good stuff
happening everywhere.
Like barter system.
You figure,
not really barter
because, like,
money is important
for economic
calculation,
but we can do that
like we don't
really need, like
if we have trust
in the base
layer of
society, then,
if you can trust
other people,
if you could trust
other people,
you wouldn't
need proof of work
or any of this decent
sterilization
bullshit.
You could just, like,
have a
ginormous spreadsheet
for everyone on Earth
and just trust
someone with it.
And that doesn't work.
That's that's
the system
we have now.
And it's always
been abused
like, yeah,
so but
it would be way
more convenient
because we wouldn't
need all this node
running and stuff
then.
And resource
consuming stuff now.
Unfortunately
we do and that,
but the irony of that
is that
I think that
at some point
that this is
deep stuff
and way
ahead in the future.
But I think
if we have a base
layer of trust,
like the
there is no
second best,
but the second best
is your
reputational capital.
It's like
how trustworthy
you are.
That's
how you get ahead
in the
Bitcoin economy.
If you have shown
to be trustworthy
over a long time,
then yeah,
why wouldn't
people trust you?
And if they trust you,
you don't really
need money.
You can just keep
a tab on the other guy
and have that
tab forever.
That's sort of what
the Lightning Network
is, by the way.
In a sense.
But but it's
more trustless.
But still,
I think
all these other things
will develop over time
that we can't
even envision now
because we're
so entrenched
in the fiat world.
And how that works.
But on a Bitcoin,
standard, where,
where you have
this base
layer of all,
all society
on like all of
civilizational base
layer of
don't trust verify
that ironically
leads to yeah,
you can trust
everyone now
because
we know that
we're doing
our verification.
So we are trustworthy.
All of us.
Like that would
lead to something
completely different
to what
we're living in now.
Then like,
I mean, throw them out
in 50 years, 50
generations down
the line. Like,
what does that
even look like?
Like it's impossible
to wrap
your head around.
And I think
this is such a.
Monumental shift
in how human
beings operate.
Like, we can't.
We've only just
barely scratched
the surface of what
this leads
to, incentive for it
look wise
over generations,
and I can see Lucas
getting bored
with my rant here,
but.
Yeah.
I'm pretty sure
this is
just your way of,
of taking a break,
right? Cuz, see?
Yeah, maybe it is.
Maybe. Oh, yeah.
I should let you in.
Look,
I I've been ranting
for a long time,
I don't. Yeah, yeah.
I don't mind you.
Yeah.
You're in your element
today.
This is, this is nice.
Oh no, I love it.
I mean, I, I'm,
I don't think
continuing this thread
like this,
this has been going,
going, going,
we we partially,
did did the thing
where like you gave
your really quick
tldr, but,
we didn't dig
into like cat
how you got into
bitcoin and, and like,
how you, you ended up
building this,
this business.
I'm, I'm interested in
that side of things.
So can can you
go into that
a little bit.
How did this
all start for you.
Yeah. Finding
finding bitcoin
like in 2013
was was
was like
very,
very interesting.
And I,
I didn't
fully understand it
for, for years
probably probably
still don't
fully understand it.
But went down this
path of kind of
trying to poke
holes in Bitcoin
and then
and then understanding
that,
oh, like
cryptography
makes sense.
Like this.
And money makes sense
like this.
And proof of work
makes sense.
Like this.
And, you know,
maybe I was lucky
at the time
there was no FUD
around Bitcoin.
There was no news
around Bitcoin.
It was just
it just existed.
It was like 100 bucks.
And it was
on nobody's radar.
And then moving into
buying Bitcoin
ATMs was my
what was
was my first
venture
into the space.
I bought a Bitcoin
ATM in Alberta.
We were the
first one in Alberta,
which was cool or like
I think the second
or the third
in Canada.
For, you know,
one of the first
in the world.
And that was awesome.
And so we,
we built this
ATM or we,
we bought this
ATM, deployed
it, started operating
it, bought some more,
bought some more.
And then before
we knew it, we had,
you know, whatever
20 ATMs
or whatever
around, around
Western Canada.
But in that process,
the like, you know,
the meme, it's like,
what radicalized you?
It was this process
here of
of actually losing,
bank accounts.
So I am like,
I'm the most d
banged man
in the country.
I've been banned
from every single
major bank in Canada.
I have been banned
from most credit
unions in Alberta.
And respect that.
I think,
and it's, it's,
it was
through that process,
which was a
couple years
where I realized
my actions are always
is subject
to the regime,
my participation
in the regime,
and probably
my political views.
And that proved, again
to be true throughout,
you know, Covid
and and the
the horrific ness
that happened
here in Canada.
And so moving
through this
process of,
of, you know,
having a
Bitcoin business
and then being
basically banished
from the
financial system
that exists today,
still having
to pay taxes,
there's
this hilarious
instance.
So the
provincial government
and the federal
government
do not allow you
to pay your taxes
in cash.
But I had
no bank account.
And so
they were sending me
late notice.
And I was like
at a loss.
I was like,
look,
happy to pay
you taxes,
but like,
give me a
bank account.
Like I said.
A bank
account is really
just a
two out of three
multi-sig between you,
the bank
and the government,
100%, 100%.
And and two out of
those are in bed
with one another.
I mean, the bankers,
occasionally
give Justin Castrol
casual blowjobs, but.
Yes, but
you do not like
and therefore you like
the no.
It's a great way
to explain it.
A two of three
with you,
the bank
and the government.
That is 100%
what it is.
And so so
yeah, there was,
there was yeah.
I had to like,
pay my taxes
in cash and,
I had to
arrange this
big ordeal
and, and go to the,
go to the,
build the building
and do all that.
It was, it was,
it was brutal.
And, so it was
it was through
this process
that I kind
of realized
how important
Self-custody is.
And, you know,
the the,
the nature
of Bitcoin ATMs,
of course, is
just already
self-custody focused.
But,
understanding the
importance of needing,
like I
uniquely need
to interact
with the fiat system.
Cannot buy
a house in cash.
You cannot buy a
car in cash.
You cannot
pay your taxes
in cash.
Frankly,
I can barely
go down the street
and buy a sandwich
with cash.
And so having that,
you know, work
not in my favor
led me to building
what is now
Bitcoin well,
which is
effectively
the conduit between
Bitcoin
and Self-custody
and the
the legacy
financial system
for as long
as it's going to last.
And I think that it's
yeah, it's
been a fun journey.
Like lots
of learnings.
I mean, even
now we've got
we've got an
error internally.
So what happens
is in Canada,
as I'm sure
you remember
the E-transfer system,
you log into
your bank,
you can send,
a transfer
through this
centralized system
called Interac,
and it goes
from bank to bank
anywhere in Canada.
And we use this.
So you,
you know,
our customers log in,
send us
an Iraqi transfer
and then
we send them Bitcoin.
But the banks
have started
blocking
Interac transfers
to us.
One of my friends,
Saxony,
signed his mom up
and he's like, hey,
it says the
the contact
denied
the transaction.
What are you
guys doing now?
I was like, nah,
the bank block.
He's like,
no, no, no, no.
I called the bank.
They said
they denied it.
And or
they said that
you declined it.
And I was like, look,
if you have the time,
go through
this process
with them.
Here's
the questions to ask.
Here's
the things you have
to push on
and tell me
what the answer is.
At the other side,
he goes through
five different people,
two hours
on the phone,
and he says
at the end of it
they said,
oh yeah,
we actually did
prevent
this transaction
from going through.
We were lying to you.
But this is for
your protection.
And it is shocking.
The,
the attitude
that the
banking system
has towards Bitcoin.
And so anyways,
back to the error.
Internally
we have an error
that's called
fuck your bank.
And that's, that's the
internal code for it.
And when there's
a, there's
a certain code
that happens
the majority
of the time when,
when a bank blocks
our transaction
and we have to send
an email
with, like,
alternative ways to,
to buy Bitcoin.
We're a
legal business.
We're publicly traded
in Canada
and in the USA.
We pay our taxes,
and yet we cannot have
a customer
send us 100 bucks,
because we're Bitcoin
and it's,
this is again,
this is the
Cobra effect
playing out.
And
they hide behind
the guys
that there's fraud
in our industry,
which is true.
There is fraud
in our industry
having non
undoable money
is a is a
haven for fraud.
For fraud
with stupid people.
There's a
there's
a lot of people
that are going
to be scammed
that have just
blindly been
trusting
the fiat system
to protect them
and that
protection is gone.
And so,
there is going to
be a turbulent
window of time here
where
lots of people
get scammed.
But
the
the response
is not
more governance.
The governance
created this problem.
If we think that
the bureaucrats
are ever going
to be smarter
than the tiny free
market scammers
who have no morals
and no laws,
like we're lying.
I mean,
it's showing up to a
to a gunfight
with a knife.
You don't have
the same tools
and so yeah.
Anyways,
all that to say
Bitcoin.
Well,
is that conduit
from self-custody
to fiat land.
Because we still
need to live
in, in fiat land.
We have this other.
I'm just on
stories now.
But you go ahead
if you've got.
No.
I just think
of the analogy like
with the bureaucrats
being more like,
you're going
into a nuclear war
with a spork.
Literally,
literally like you've
got a close
range weapon in,
in a global
battle, like,
what are you
going to be doing?
That was this
one instance.
And this goes to show
you just how
either uninformed
or malicious
this whole system is.
My wife need
a new vehicle.
We have another kid to
go to the car
dealership.
We pick up
the right one.
All right. Great.
I tell them, look,
I'm paying in cash.
They're like,
no problem.
You sure
you don't want
to finance it?
I don't want
to finance it.
I'm paying in cash.
Okay. Let's go.
So we order the car.
They may deposit in
like cash,
like in,
in dollar bills.
And then,
a few weeks later,
the car shows up.
We go to pick it up,
I got my backpack,
and I'm like,
all right.
They're like, what?
Let's pay.
I got my backpack
and like, whoa,
whoa, whoa,
what are you doing
now?
I was like,
pay in cash.
And they're like,
whoa.
Well,
we thought you
meant a check.
That was like, what?
I said check.
If I meant check,
I said cash,
and I paid you in
cash for the deposit.
They're like,
okay, well,
we have to take this
cash,
give it to the police.
The police will
investigate it
for ten business days
and then once it's
clean, we'll give it,
you know,
then you can come
pick up the car.
And I was like,
no, no, no no
no, no, no,
there's no way.
And by the way,
previously to that
the police had seized
about $10,000
from one of
our Bitcoin ATMs.
But I spent
two and a half
years in court
fighting them
to get back.
And so this is
this is
I think
this is only 5
or 6 months
after
the police
had seized that.
So I'm
I'm hyper
hyper skeptical
of, of this.
And so obviously
I said no.
And then, you know,
we just had
to work out
other other,
other systems.
But it is
it is shocking
how the system works
in this way.
No.
And I know
like I needed
to, to withdraw,
a large amount of cash
from a bank account
here in, in, you know,
connected to,
to my house.
The let,
let's just say that
and not go
into details,
but I needed
some of my money.
That's the point.
Now the bank asks me
what I need
the money for,
and I'm like,
what the fuck
do you need
the money for?
It's my money.
Yeah,
I'm the paying you
to store it
for me, right?
Like, and here's.
Here's
the scary thing is
that I've
had this discussion
with left leaning
communists
to be polite.
And they,
they often say, well,
it's for
your protection.
It's for the greater
good, blah,
blah, blah.
And I think that
this is
probably the
most heinous and
and difficult,
to understand lie
that we've been told.
Because if you
tell everyone
that they are
in danger,
then you get to become
you have this
this ability
to be the Savior.
And we have
been tricked
into thinking
we are in danger
for so long
that people
are now applauding
when your money
gets held back.
It is.
It's this
most battered
wife syndrome
situation.
But this is the
oldest scam
in the universe,
that are in
human civilization
anyway.
Like,
that you
need protection
from something.
This is what
the mafia uses
all the time
to sell you insurance
against what
they will do to you
if you don't pay
for the insurance.
It's like,
why would
I need a savior?
You need a savior
from what
we will do to you
if you don't
buy our Savior,
what do I need
protection from?
You need protection
from what
the whatever
we feel
that we need
to do to you
if you don't do what
we tell you to do.
So, it's
the greatest lie
ever told.
And. Yes, yeah.
And all of
these problems with
when you think
about them and,
and everyone
who doesn't understand
Bitcoin says,
like, no,
it's unusable
because I can't
use my fiat
to do this and that.
But once
you're in Bitcoin
all the friction is
is gone.
Like it works
flawlessly 24/7.
Like TikTok
next block.
Nothing is,
like everything's
predictable,
everything's smooth,
everything's like,
exactly as
it should be. And,
you get
an occasional
fee spike
every once in a while
when a scammer
comes along and tries
to pull
a Fiat scam
on someone else.
But that's
basically it.
That's also a problem
with fiat
affecting Bitcoin.
So yes,
like it's it's
all fiat fault
for.
If we weren't.
So we do a lot of work
to prevent fraud.
And the number one
start I'm
a fraud case is
I'm trying
to preserve by wealth.
This is the
this is the natural
state of our world
where they
they have a
small amount
of savings.
There's
no longer cutting.
It will no longer
cut it in the future.
And someone
tricks them
into thinking
they can
guarantee 20%,
30% outpace inflation,
whatever it's
going to be with money
that does that.
By default,
all of those
scams disappear.
They become
non-existent.
We no longer
need to gamble
our savings,
our value,
our futures,
in order
to just simply survive
because
we've got money
that actually does
the work
in preserving
the value, which is,
I think,
again,
another societal shift
that will occur.
And inherently,
you know, incentives
then realign.
And we've got a better
opportunity to,
yeah, to,
I think, to thrive
as humanity.
Yeah.
The winning
move in fiat land
is to not play at all,
but something.
And we had it
in us all along.
It's like
we just needed
Bitcoin to
to tell us
that we had it
in us all along.
Yes.
And and you know,
investing is like
such an interesting
thought process of
I worked very hard
and received
this money.
This money sucks
so bad
that I'm going
to go now.
Give the money
to somebody else
so that I can have
a chance
to have
a better future,
or not
even a better future,
just to maintain
like I have
the same future
that I have right now.
And it's such
an interesting concept
that really
only needs to exist
when you've got
manipulated fiat.
Yeah.
And in investments,
when you have a
Bitcoin stack,
it needs to be
thought through like,
is this going to
make me more money
than just sitting
on this pile
of Bitcoin
and doing fuck all?
So I actually
actually
might disagree
with that.
I think that
investing it on
a Bitcoin standard
will transition
from a way to get rich
in or,
and it will change
into a way
to improve your life
or the lives of people
that care about.
We're going
to become mission
focused investors
in, in the future
and will actually,
I think, look a lot
more life,
philanthropic activity
than it will,
look like
getting an ROI
in monetary sense.
Yeah.
Here's an example of
of what I got.
Had to wait.
No, no, no,
you go ahead.
So example
that my kids
and I went to
a, a camp,
a family Bible
camp over the summer,
and it was dynamite.
Ten out of ten.
They're talking about
generational faith.
They're talking about
growing adults
are growing children
into adults.
That like,
love the Lord,
but also like,
you know,
want to move society
in a positive
direction
and, very,
very positive, move.
And I start
looking around,
you know,
my, like, serial
entrepreneur brand.
And I'm like, wow,
this sucks.
You know,
this could be better,
this could do more
blah, blah,
blah, blah.
And,
you know, I didn't
I didn't act on any of
this information,
but I started thinking
like, oh,
what would it
look like
for, you know,
if I were to
start a camp like this
or invest in a camp
like this?
Well,
their structure is
not for profit.
So then
I started thinking,
what would the benefit
like?
What would the
benefit be?
What if I committed,
you know,
X number of dollars
or X number of SATs
to a project
like this.
What would
that look like
over the next
period of time
and time
and time again,
it looked like
a horrible
monetary investment.
You cannot get
around that
in any way, shape
or form.
However,
I am still
incredibly drawn
to push our world
in such a way
that does empower,
you know,
the next generation
to be like, bold
and love the Lord.
And so I, I really,
do it.
This got me on this
track of like, well,
what does investing
look like
in the future
of a Bitcoin standard?
Why would
anyone invest?
And it has to be about
more than money
when you are so secure
in your future
and you're
so confident
that your savings
will yield
generations
of progress,
then you have
the ability
to kind of fast
track society
in a, in a direction
based on,
you know, a spend
or an effort.
Here's an
Austrian
perspective on that.
And that is that,
that was always
the case.
Like investment,
like money is just a
part of the equation.
But people do stuff.
People want money
because of the stuff.
That money will
buy them. Right?
And not not money
because of
the money itself.
So like,
there are more
things at play
in what we value
than simple
financial gains.
Like, I like we,
we do things
for our families
rather than like
I draw them
by Christmas
present for my son
than for some other
fucking kid
on the street
like that.
Like it's pretty
simple like that. So.
So, but the thing
I see, like,
if you just
fast track to
when there is no more
satoshis to be mined,
they're all
in circulation.
By the way, money is
never in circulation,
but it always belongs
to someone
at some point.
But you
get the expression,
so, at that point,
the only way
to survive,
is either doing
goods or services
or using
something else
than Bitcoin,
or to diminish
your stack slowly,
slowly, slowly
over time,
which still
can increase
in purchasing
power over time.
This is the magic
of deflation.
But what an investment
can do
is that it can
change the derivative,
it like the vector,
the the angle
of the decline
to be a little less
steep. Yeah.
So that's so, so that,
that you, you might,
start a company
not to have
black numbers,
but to have,
like, the,
the angle of
the decline
of your stock
be a little less
steep.
So, which, which.
But also.
What this does
is that it removes
all the
zombie companies
of the world, like,
because right now
companies are started
for bullshit
everywhere, and,
they don't make money.
And when, when,
when they go bankrupt,
there is
no punishment. No.
The,
what's the word I'm
looking for
the punishment
for for
the people doing
the bad
investment is not.
It doesn't suffice.
It's not.
It's not enough.
Like they're
not getting
what they deserve.
It's so
they can't keep on
doing stupid things
over and over again
and never learned
their lesson.
That is simply
not possible
in Bitcoin.
Yeah, 100%.
They're almost
they're always forced
to make
those bad investments.
They're not playing a
they're,
they're playing a game
whereby
you don't
need everything
to win.
You just need one.
And, and
especially on the,
on the VC track,
which is, yeah,
inherently fiat.
And and
I think that,
you know,
I look at these
big companies
with,
with all this cash
like I look at
Apple's
a great example
with this car recently
they piled
billions of dollars
into this car project
and then just
wiped it like
just scrap.
And what that means is
probably
they were
forcing things,
and they didn't have
they didn't
necessarily
have the
market signals
to bring that,
but they just thought,
well,
this cash
is deteriorating.
No, it's
what are we going
to do?
Well, on effect, it's
the Cantillon
effect and play.
They can
they can afford
to be wasteful
because there's
no cost
to being wasteful.
In fact, it's better
for them
to be wasted or.
To be wasteful.
It's awful.
Yeah.
It is.
It's terrible, man.
It's, Yeah.
It's challenging.
It's it's
a challenging spot.
Yeah.
And like,
I guess
kind of
speaking of the
the challenges,
I mean,
I mean, right now
Canada, Alberta,
are, are both
interesting places,
to operate.
Alberta is an
interesting place
to operate.
And what it
what's coming
up for you like,
what are you
what are you,
aiming to,
to do, right now
as you're going
forward here.
Yeah.
So we're
looking at Bitcoin.
Well,
very,
very excited
to make Canada
and us
kind of facilitate
that conduit here.
But more broadly,
I've my wife
and I over the last
probably 12,
18 months
had this kind of
major decision.
Are we going to
stay or go?
And we went through
this exercise,
this thought
process of,
you know, are we
are we happy here?
Well, no not really.
What are the pros
and cons?
And then and then,
you know, more cons,
but then it's
like, well,
where do we go?
And everywhere
is of subject
to the same fiat ness
that Canada
is some
a little bit less
some seeming
on the mend.
But all in all,
life gets
at best
marginally better,
than if
if we were to leave
and we'd lose all of
our, you know,
our community.
And, and
and that
whole, you know,
the family,
the friendships.
Like,
I grew up in the city
that we live in still,
my kids,
although we
are yanking the kids
out of school,
my kids were
at the same school
that I went to.
We play hockey.
Like,
we've got a really
strong community
in this,
in this city,
in this country.
And so about
six months ago,
we kind of made
the decision to stay,
but then,
take action towards,
you know,
making it
a better place.
And so
kind of cementing
Bitcoin.
Well,
you know, here
in North America,
specifically making.
Yeah, Canada
and USA
having that conduit
between
between Self-custody
and legacy
financial system.
I do believe
that my kids
will grow up
in a world
where they can
just have a Bitcoin
well, account,
they will not
need a bank account.
They'll be able to
send wire transfers
and buy a house
and do all the things
that they need to do.
With the fiat world,
but the
majority of their
income
and the majority
of their
or all of
their savings
should be
in Self-custody.
And so,
yeah,
as far as what's
next, it's
that I think
that paycheck
interaction,
something deeply
personal
and powerful
about getting,
you know,
sending your paycheck
and knowing a portion
or all of that
is turning
into Bitcoin
that is very good,
raw value.
And there's
so much opportunity
that we have.
On top of that,
we can start paying
people early.
We can give people
Bitcoin exposure
like they
there is just
there's opportunity
that exists here.
So yeah
all that to say,
what's next
is just
continuing down
the path.
We are very excited
about this.
These cash accounts
giving people
the ability
to deposit paychecks,
receive bitcoin
and self-custody.
Also,
this kind of solves
our Bitcoin bank
issue, right?
It's like
stupid banks, like,
well, don't send money
to those people.
We don't want
them to have it.
It's like,
okay, great.
Then we'll just
take the money first
and then give you
what's left over.
You know, like
this is kind of,
this is the
Cobra effect
in real time.
Banks are
losing customers
because they will not
let their customers do
what they want
with their money.
And they've
been too big
to fail for so long.
Some incredibly, the
supernatural force
in Bitcoin comes along
and completely
disrupts their
their entire
being in their
entire business.
And, yeah,
I think that
we're going to be
in better shape
because of it.
But so yeah, the next
that's a little bit
I'm working right now.
We developed, a swap.
So we obviously send,
you know,
hundreds
of transactions a day
on chain. And
part of the
benefits there is
that we can
swap transactions.
And so we made
a lightning
to chain and a chain
to lightning swap tool
where you can send
lightning and receive
Bitcoin on chain,
like for free.
So no fee
and no minor fee.
Even you see,
if you send a million
SATs on lightning,
you get a million
SATs on chain.
And I want to open
that up worldwide.
So investigating,
you know,
all the fiat ness
that is
that is included
that my wife has given
me pretty strict,
don't go to jail.
Rules.
That's
that's the sole rule
that I live behind
or that I live by.
And so abiding
by the don't
go to jail rule
forces me to be
relatively aware
of the compliance.
In other
jurisdictions.
And so currently
going through
that process.
But what that means
for us is,
first of all,
we get
to give the world
the ability
to stack on lightning
and then
and then store
on chain.
And that's
probably the future
for the short term
stacking in an L2
secondary chain
where you are
giving up
custody rights,
like with either
liquid or lightning,
you're giving up
custody rights.
Frankly, you know,
you can run a node
and have channels.
No one does that.
It is
it is the delta
between
that and
custody is so big,
I believe it's
like,
I guess personally
I do that.
But I don't believe
the majority
of our customers
will do that.
And so that said,
stacking on chain
in a self-custody
environment,
is getting
quite punitive,
or it could become
quite punitive with,
so management
and so
stacking and lightning
in some kind
of layer to
moving it on
chain to store,
feels like
the appropriate
intermediary
right now.
And giving that to
the world
is very important.
And then for us,
we get to kind
of identify, hey,
you've got a pocket of
users in Brazil,
why don't we go
and start deploying
fiat services
in Brazil
or Mexico or whatever?
Sweden, Finland,
you know, mind you,
you get your
your jurisdiction
is crazy for,
laws and compliance.
So maybe not,
but we'll see.
No, but,
I got the fuck
out of Sweden
because of.
So that's
one of the
other things.
Yes.
It's, Yeah.
It's crazy.
It's a nightmare
that's.
In Europe has, like,
all of it
kind of its own,
its own suite
of services
and providers
and stuff.
It
we actually
don't talk to,
I think the North
American side
that often.
So great to great
to hear
your perspective.
Great to see you
what you're doing.
I mean like,
our touch points
with Canadian
Bitcoiners
over the last
few months,
everyone's awesome.
I mean, we've
we've talked to,
but Ben,
Ben Sessions, I
know as Ben Perrin.
It's cubicle
calling him.
Just BTC sessions.
We talked to him.
Yeah. Mr. sessions.
Mr. sessions? Yeah.
Dave Bradley, like,
all the
the Canadian
community is,
is just
absolutely fantastic.
The Alberta
Nasdaq like.
Yes. Exact.
Exactly. Yeah.
I mentioned
a few of Frances.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
And so, no.
Awesome to see
what you're doing.
And
looking forward to,
to seeing everything
that is coming up
with Bitcoin.
Well, so, yeah.
Adam was,
was there
anything else
you wanted
to, to touch on that
we haven't
already covered?
Now man,
this is great.
You guys crash it.
It's always fun
driving down
the philosophical
rabbit hole
of of bitcoin.
And,
you know,
bitcoiners
get a lot of flack
for saying
Bitcoin fixes this.
But when you run down
the logic train,
Bitcoin fixes
a lot of things.
Absolutely.
Almost everything.
Almost everything
then and it's
it's it is
really remarkable,
that we get to live
in a time
to contribute to that,
like you guys
with your show,
you know, like,
you know, what
we get to do
with Bitcoin? Well,
I just think about
and you know,
there's a chance
that we don't
get any credit,
which is fine.
You know
I don't know who
made the first
printing press,
but I know it was
pretty damn important
for the future
of democracy.
Gutenberg.
It was it.
Yeah.
So, yeah,
I think it's cool.
I think it's great
that we get
to communicate.
And,
and I think it's great
that we get to
contribute to
what the future
of Bitcoin will be.
So yeah,
hats off to you guys.
Thanks so much
for having me.
And looking forward
to our chat soon.
Yeah.
Final thought,
did you know that
you can mix
like milk, sugar,
eggs and butter and
store your
bitcoin in that
weather with a
vanilla vanilla
extract? Give me this.
How do you do that?
It's called
self-custody.
Okay.
I will accept that.
And I will,
I will go try it.
It sounds
just like eggnog
to me, but.
Events
on how you mix, like
if you use wasabi
or not, like, but,
all right, anywhere
you want to send
our listeners, more.
Yeah.
I mean, certainly go
go to Bitcoin.
Welcome.
We're going to be,
like I said, that
swap tool.
I'm working
very hard to get this.
I want this live.
And so,
got a Bitcoin welcome.
Make an account
and then do nothing.
And we'll,
when it's live,
it'll be live.
But also, you know,
like on Twitter,
you can get me at Adam
O'Brien underscore
or on primal
or on nosotros. Sorry.
You can get me.
I'm a I'm a nipple
five maxi.
Meaning I'm
not going to sit here
and rattle off my
my job,
but I am going
to get nipple
five verification
which is just Adam
at btc w app.
So btc w is
this is the shorthand
for bitcoin.
Well dot app
that's my nipple.
Five verification.
If you search that
in any in any,
Nostre client,
you'll likely see me
and Yeah,
follow me there.
We'd love to connect
with more Bitcoiners,
especially,
you know,
international
Bitcoiners are great
because my family
and I might show up
looking for a place
to stay one day,
and then,
and then we'll
have some fun.
Thank you very much.
Adam.
This has been,
a great conversation.
I enjoyed it a lot.
And, Yeah,
we'll keep in touch.
Awesome.
Thank you
for everything. Yeah.
Thanks a lot, Adam.
Take care.