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when you look into how mining really works at the moment anyway,

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there's so much nonsense going on that you start to think, wait.

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If there's only one other option, if I talk to you about the nonsense, and I tell

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you there's an alternative called Ocean, and you switch there, by the way, it's not

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much of a coincidence, and it's not too much of a stretch of the imagination for

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you to realize, that is the one pool also that has an anti spam mechanism in it.

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None of the other ones do, and the other ones all engage in this nonsense

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I'm talking about that you're probably going to want to get away from every

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reason, including profitability

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Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint show, the Bitcoin

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philosophy show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn.

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And we're here today with Bitcoin Mechanic, who's here today to talk

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all about the new Bitcoin mining pool, Ocean, which we're really excited about

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and everything that's going on today with spam on the blockchain and what

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Ocean might be doing to mitigate that.

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So Bitcoin Mechanic, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show.

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Hi, how are you guys doing?

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and good to see you again, Mr.

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Mechanic.

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It's been a while, uh, and congratulations on your new position and, uh,

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congratulations on the fantastic launch and your fourth block and everything,

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even though it was empty, uh, uh, yeah.

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output in it, that's enough, that's

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All right, yeah.

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Yeah, but congratulations on everything Ocean related.

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So, um, yeah, we've been trying for a couple of episodes now to, you know,

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light on what's going on with Ocean and with this spam that's clogging up

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the time chain and stuff like that.

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So, I'd like to start from a, um A more philosophical angle, maybe.

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so, there's this notion about, you know, Bitcoin moving the shelling point of

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profitability of violence or something like that, so when you cannot know how

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much another person owns because they can have the private keys in their heads,

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you can't really shoot them and take their stuff because the stuff is in their

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heads, so Bitcoin is in their heads.

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Incentivizing people to be more peaceful towards one another because

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violence is less profitable than it used to be before Bitcoin was a thing.

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However, I had a conversation with a couple of miners in Stuttgart about

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this that made the point that This is not necessarily true for miners.

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Miners may still have an incentive to be aggressive towards one another.

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So if you imagine, uh,

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competing miners may still have an incentive to nuke one another and

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destroy the competitor's hashing power.

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Is this how you see it?

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Is this something you'd agree to, this picture of, this framing?

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You mean like in a physical sabotage capacity, like, you know, go over to

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the guy's warehouse and, you know, pump in a bunch of hot air so that

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they all overheat and damage themselves or just straight up blow it up?

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I

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Yeah, I mean physical damage,

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yeah, I mean, in theory, sure.

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But I mean, in my experience, none of them have done that.

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But that's just how Bitcoin works in the early days, right?

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Like, Hodl Tarantula tweeted about this a little while ago saying, like,

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logically, every time someone messages me asking for help setting up their

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mining farm, I should not help them because, you know, they're competition.

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But You'll never see me do that in a million years.

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All I want to do is help them get set up and like, teach them all the

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things I've learned over the years, but that's, you know, that's, humans

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like helping each other, and it's one of these things that defies those

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sorts of people that have this, uh, you know, mantra that An action will be

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economically rational, and that's it.

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No one will ever do anything else, you know, uh, that isn't motivated by this.

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And I'm like, well, people just help each other for, you know, you can call

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up a guy with the wrong phone number and he'll try and help you out for ages.

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And any appeal to like, Well, there's some sort of way in which he can benefit

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from that if, you know, you do him a favor, maybe he does you a favor one

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day, and I'm like, no, this is a guy you bumped into an airport and you picked

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up the thing that fell on the floor, you just wanted to help him, like, you

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know, you'll never see the guy again.

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So people like helping each other, right?

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Um, so you've got that.

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I'm not saying Bitcoin will remain like that forever, though.

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I think industrial espionage particularly of like massive bitmain facilities.

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I wouldn't put it past them to be like, you know, get a worker

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inside a micro BT factory and start sabotaging devices and stuff like that.

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On, on that scale, it starts to get pretty nasty.

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But,

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Th this is sort of why I ask the question be because, um, I also believe that most

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people want to help one another, and especially Bitcoiners who, who know a bit

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about Austrian economics and know that profit is not just monetary profit or

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economic profit, like profit can be in terms of you feeling better about yourself

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or you making a more long-term move.

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and you know, miners.

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Being at least the first generation of miners probably have this

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low time preference thing going.

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so, but when we move to like, and some would argue we're already there, you

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know, with industrial mining and, and, uh, all of a sudden you have all these

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bad actors to see a short term profits, some, some way of, of, Being malicious

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and therefore, making a big short term profit and therefore they're a threat.

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And so, so is this an increasing threat as, as mining grows bigger as an industry?

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What, what would you say?

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I think it's more to do with mining having less and less to do with Bitcoin.

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Uh, and this is a point I've been making for a while, which is, um, you know,

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Bitcoin mining as Satoshi described it.

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It requires a whole bunch of processes and infrastructure that, uh, of

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which hashing is one part of it.

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And increasingly, when we talk about Bitcoin miners, we talk about

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hashes, and we discard the rest of it and just leave that up to a tiny

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group of pools, and that's not good.

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Um, because it's just perpetuating a myth.

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If you have a bitcoin mining device, it's just hashing and doing the work

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given to it by a centralized coordinator, which has problems and ramifications,

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and I see errors in this all the time.

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Uh, in the general discourse around Bitcoin, when people talk about soft fork

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upgrades, they'll say, oh, if a miner does this, if a miner does that, and there's

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always someone saying, you mean if a pool does this, if a pool does that, because

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the miners are just doing what the pool tells them with regard to activation or

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not, so the people's understanding of the dynamic of the different properties

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Parties, the nodes, the devs, the miners, the hashes, the pools, all that stuff.

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People's, you know, we have to, you have to take into account the motivations

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of each actor, or each group of actors, and know that sometimes they

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don't align like the way you'd hope.

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Like, uh, in theory, something that never happened, but if you wanted bigger

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blocks, for example, because there wasn't enough space and you thought,

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oh, the nodes could handle a megabyte and a half or two megabytes or something

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like that, you know, not talking about witness discounts, stuff like that.

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Um, you know, the miners in theory would be against that, right?

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Because the smaller the blocks, the more money they make in theory, but You know,

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like obviously that it went the opposite way in the fork wars because of a bunch

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of other factors, but you know, there are times when you can have nodes and

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people making financial transactions be incentivized against what is good for

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miners or what's good for pools rather.

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And that's kind of the situation we're in at the moment.

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Uh, it's definitely in the extreme short term, uh, interest for miners to include

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lucrative, but completely damaging.

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toxic crap that they're sticking in the blockchain at the moment.

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I understand the motivation to include that stuff.

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Uh, it's dwarfed by a bunch of other factors which everyone keeps ignoring,

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which has been increasingly simple for me to explain because it was pretty

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mind boggling for me at the beginning.

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But, um, you know, it's not as simple as saying, Hey, if you want Bitcoin to

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work better long term, prioritize genuine transactions and stop including the spam.

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that was, you know, that's a hard argument to make on its, on its surface because you

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do seem, it does seem to be the altruistic minor argument saying, Hey, go against

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your own short term profit incentives and do what's good for Bitcoin long term.

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People are going to laugh at that and say, Hey, well, you can't expect that.

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That's not how Bitcoin is designed.

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But when you look into how mining really works at the moment anyway,

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there's so much nonsense going on that you start to think, wait.

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If there's only one other option, if I talk to you about the nonsense, and I tell

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you there's an alternative called Ocean, and you switch there, by the way, it's not

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much of a coincidence, and it's not too much of a stretch of the imagination for

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you to realize, that is the one pool also that has an anti spam mechanism in it.

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None of the other ones do, and the other ones all engage in this nonsense

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I'm talking about that you're probably going to want to get away from for

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every reason, including profitability.

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So the spam, uh, the spam mitigation strategies that in theory result

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in less income for minors, if they are ignored That means mining with

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pools that are hurting you in so many other ways, in ways that are

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just about you and your own interest, and also systemically about Bitcoin.

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So it, it all kind of magically aligns to the point where I'm saying, at the

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moment, on a practical level, if you fight the spam with Ocean as a miner, you're

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going to come out ahead financially.

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How far ahead you come out, I haven't actually managed to establish yet.

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But that's not our fault.

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That is, again, due to the nature of the fact that what happens fundamentally

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with miners mining on other pools has basically nothing directly to do

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with what happens in the blockchain.

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Which is ridiculous, but it's actually true.

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It's basically this whole notion of a miner advocating all of

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the responsibilities of mining except hashing means they leave

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everything up to the pools.

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And leaving everything up to the pools means, how do you know?

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Whether, you know, you're mining with Foundry, Foundry

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just found a block, it had 1.

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3 bitcoins worth of transaction free revenue in it.

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How do you get to, and this is the payout I got, what were all the

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steps in between those two things?

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How do you verify that they were all done correctly?

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The answer is you can't.

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Which is why people keep comparing ocean blocks that have no spam in them to

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network blocks found by other pools, and doing an apples for apples comparison,

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and I'm saying Prove to me that that block the other pool found actually had

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the correct split in it because they don't even claim that that's the truth.

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The FPPS payout model is structured so that every block on the

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network is taken into account when deciding what a share is.

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So if you contribute a share as a miner to the process of finding the

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block, there's a, uh, a policy every pool has that says, okay, here's how

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much money you deserve for that share.

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We are renting your hash rate.

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Even if no blocks get found on the network, we are paying you

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for the rental of your hash rate.

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And so you, as a miner, get cash flow, which is actually their

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main concern, not profitability.

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So, saying, we will pay you no matter what happens.

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You don't have to deal with Bitcoin's randomness.

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If we don't find a block for two weeks, don't worry, you'll still get paid, you'll

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still have your energy bill covered.

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But, Some, at some point they need to set a policy of saying this is how much

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your hash rate is worth and that cannot take into account future unpredictable

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events like how much fees will be in each block because there might be no fees or

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there might be millions of dollars worth of fees so they just set a level and

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say here you go here's how much money you're going to be paid out per share

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you Then they go ahead and find blocks, and if you get weird blocks, like Antpool

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mining a transaction that accidentally paid 83 bitcoins as a transaction

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fee, that doesn't magically mean that just gets split up and given to you.

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In fact, your assumption should be that it won't, because they will try and

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give that back to whoever it belongs to.

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Uh, you know, whoever it was that made the mistake, and in that case,

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they called it a gas fee because these people are as much, they're

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about as Bitcoin y as, you know, as, uh, what do you call him, Jim Cramer.

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So, you know, I'm, I'm sort of, I'm sort of giving you the whole high level

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overview of what I'm talking about here.

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It's a very different model.

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It's diametrically the opposite of something like Ocean, where

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we just say, here's the block.

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Here's the work all the miners did, transparently, and we are splitting

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it in accordance with that work.

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That's it.

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And it's utterly verifiable.

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And competition should sort all this out.

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It should be the case that FPPS pools should be paying

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what you'd expect them to pay.

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But the problem is, there's increasingly only a couple of pools.

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The competition is kind of an illusion.

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And I've been making this analogy of, uh, you've been to London, right?

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Um, I guess like, you know, Brick Lane, it's a very celebrated part of London with

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like hundreds of Indian restaurants and uh, people go there, like it's where you

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sort of advise, it's like you go to the seaside and eat fish and chips and you

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go to Brick Lane to eat Indian food, but there's like, if you walk down it, you

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get this feeling of like Indian hustle culture, where like every restaurant's

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trying to pull you in, you know.

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Like, come into R1, no, come into R1, and they like, fight, and they're like,

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shoving a menu in your face, and offering you deals and discounts, and when you go

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inside the, one of the restaurants, you realize it's all the same chef, they're,

226
00:13:46,505 --> 00:13:50,005
all, all the different restaurants are the same thing, it's just they

227
00:13:50,005 --> 00:13:53,955
have different storefronts, so that's increasingly what mining's becoming

228
00:13:53,955 --> 00:13:55,885
like, with the whole FPPS structure.

229
00:13:56,165 --> 00:13:57,195
This is so risky.

230
00:13:57,535 --> 00:14:01,275
FPPS means a pool is on the hook to pay miners, even if

231
00:14:01,275 --> 00:14:02,555
it's not finding any blocks.

232
00:14:02,945 --> 00:14:07,185
This can make you bankrupt really, really quick, just because Bitcoin's random.

233
00:14:07,185 --> 00:14:09,215
You don't know when you're going to find your next block.

234
00:14:09,945 --> 00:14:13,825
So, uh, I'll round off with this point in a sec, because I know I'm sort of

235
00:14:13,855 --> 00:14:17,655
going over everything here, but this is all I do is talk about this stuff.

236
00:14:18,015 --> 00:14:18,375
So.

237
00:14:18,765 --> 00:14:22,025
You know, the point is, there's so little competition, and there's so

238
00:14:22,025 --> 00:14:26,955
much, uh, backdoor dealings that need to be done, and it's, it's basically

239
00:14:26,955 --> 00:14:32,945
looking like Antpool is keeping around nine of the other pools, like, running.

240
00:14:33,085 --> 00:14:36,265
So if one, if, if one of these smaller pools has a run of bad

241
00:14:36,265 --> 00:14:39,245
luck, they turn around to Antpool, and Antpool bankrolls them for a

242
00:14:39,245 --> 00:14:40,855
while until their luck balances out.

243
00:14:41,275 --> 00:14:44,435
And all this means is, the competition really isn't there.

244
00:14:44,740 --> 00:14:50,820
So the FPPS club, which is basically 99 percent of pools now, is, is a

245
00:14:50,830 --> 00:14:54,350
rigged system, which means they can pay you whatever they like per share.

246
00:14:54,620 --> 00:14:59,810
And good luck trying to verify how your hash rate, translated or

247
00:14:59,830 --> 00:15:03,110
how blocks found by those pools translates into rewards for you.

248
00:15:03,420 --> 00:15:06,170
And we've had a couple of people, uh, these are, these are not claims

249
00:15:06,170 --> 00:15:07,780
I want to make with certainty yet.

250
00:15:08,095 --> 00:15:11,525
Because we don't know because of the opaque nature of what we're

251
00:15:11,525 --> 00:15:15,885
trying to compare transparent ocean payouts to, to FPPS payouts.

252
00:15:15,925 --> 00:15:18,165
We can't do a comparison yet because we don't have enough

253
00:15:18,165 --> 00:15:19,395
data, but we're almost there.

254
00:15:19,635 --> 00:15:22,395
But we've had a couple of people come to us and say, I've been

255
00:15:22,395 --> 00:15:23,935
mining with ocean for a month.

256
00:15:24,365 --> 00:15:28,865
Uh, you had a particularly unlucky month and I made around 30 percent

257
00:15:28,895 --> 00:15:32,475
more than I did with the equivalent machines pointed to other pools.

258
00:15:32,745 --> 00:15:34,595
Now this is an outrageous claim.

259
00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:36,930
And I don't want to get taken out of context here.

260
00:15:37,210 --> 00:15:39,950
I'm not going to say that's definitely what's going on, or

261
00:15:39,950 --> 00:15:41,680
they're cheating to that extent.

262
00:15:42,050 --> 00:15:46,980
But if they are, uh, Motorist yesterday said this is going to be like the, the

263
00:15:47,130 --> 00:15:50,260
covert ASIC boost moment of the Fork Wars.

264
00:15:50,290 --> 00:15:54,160
That's the Spam Wars, like, bombshell moment, where we find out the pools

265
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,800
are really being that greedy, and they're, they're robbing to that extent

266
00:15:58,820 --> 00:15:59,890
because they've been able to do it.

267
00:16:00,300 --> 00:16:03,710
I'm not saying that's what's happening yet, at least not to that extent.

268
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,640
What if we can prove this, then I expect mining to just completely blow

269
00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,170
up altogether, but this is outlandish.

270
00:16:11,180 --> 00:16:15,400
It is an extraordinary claim, so I know it requires extraordinary evidence and,

271
00:16:15,930 --> 00:16:17,680
but you know, I'll round off there.

272
00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:18,260
We're getting there.

273
00:16:18,787 --> 00:16:21,127
So, so four blocks as of now, right?

274
00:16:21,127 --> 00:16:24,417
So, so how many blocks do you think you will have to find before

275
00:16:24,417 --> 00:16:26,557
you have this robust evidence?

276
00:16:27,167 --> 00:16:29,757
Well, we need, we don't need that many.

277
00:16:29,787 --> 00:16:32,867
We just need the, on Oceanside.

278
00:16:33,032 --> 00:16:36,752
We actually don't need that much data at all, because we constantly have a template

279
00:16:36,882 --> 00:16:39,212
that we can compare to any network block.

280
00:16:39,652 --> 00:16:42,932
Uh, whenever, you know, Antpool finds a block, or Foundry finds a block, we

281
00:16:42,932 --> 00:16:46,462
can just look at what Ocean's templates were doing at that exact second.

282
00:16:46,872 --> 00:16:52,222
Because, there's nothing, there's nothing weird going on with Ocean when we find it.

283
00:16:52,272 --> 00:16:54,992
You can just say, this split would have gone to all of these miners, and

284
00:16:54,992 --> 00:16:56,792
this is all publicly available data.

285
00:16:57,262 --> 00:16:58,282
Uh, the Ocean

286
00:16:58,297 --> 00:17:00,517
don't actually have to find the, the blocks.

287
00:17:00,517 --> 00:17:00,937
You just

288
00:17:01,077 --> 00:17:02,337
No, you don't even need to find

289
00:17:02,347 --> 00:17:02,797
okay.

290
00:17:03,207 --> 00:17:07,457
Yeah, but I mean, to be honest, um, let's find them regardless.

291
00:17:07,477 --> 00:17:09,187
And then we're going to need to adjust for luck.

292
00:17:09,367 --> 00:17:12,987
So if, if it turns out, you know, we're 105 percent luck, you know, we

293
00:17:12,987 --> 00:17:16,287
found 5 percent more blocks than we should have, or you need to adjust

294
00:17:16,297 --> 00:17:19,437
for that when you make the comparison, then you need to take the fees of

295
00:17:19,437 --> 00:17:21,087
all the blocks we found into account.

296
00:17:21,287 --> 00:17:26,202
And, you know, Make an average based on all the hash rate for what the

297
00:17:26,202 --> 00:17:29,862
fees actually worked out to because it's not fair if we got lucky with the

298
00:17:29,862 --> 00:17:33,302
fees in our blocks and the network got unlucky with the fees in their blocks.

299
00:17:33,602 --> 00:17:36,742
You need to compare all the Transaction fees are a nightmare because they make

300
00:17:36,742 --> 00:17:40,902
all this unpredictable and they're basically why FPPS is such a scam anyway.

301
00:17:41,212 --> 00:17:46,202
Because FPPS was like this sort of temporary payout system that worked

302
00:17:46,512 --> 00:17:51,602
when Bitcoin was sustained by Subsidy, because subsidy is so predictable.

303
00:17:51,602 --> 00:17:55,482
You can look at the total network hash rate that is an estimate, but it's,

304
00:17:55,692 --> 00:17:57,522
you know, hopefully somewhat reliable.

305
00:17:57,892 --> 00:18:01,582
You look at your own hash rate, you look at how much bitcoin is paid out every 10

306
00:18:01,582 --> 00:18:03,672
minutes, which is utterly predictable.

307
00:18:04,152 --> 00:18:06,412
And you do a calculation based on that.

308
00:18:06,472 --> 00:18:10,472
I have 1 percent of the network hash rate, there's 50 bitcoins every 10 minutes.

309
00:18:10,937 --> 00:18:13,677
That means I get five, you know, I get 0.

310
00:18:13,727 --> 00:18:15,037
5 bitcoin every 10 minutes.

311
00:18:15,087 --> 00:18:16,777
That's a very easy calculation.

312
00:18:17,027 --> 00:18:20,947
But when blocks, uh, when miners are sustained by transaction fees, how do

313
00:18:20,947 --> 00:18:22,417
you know what those are going to be?

314
00:18:22,427 --> 00:18:22,947
You don't.

315
00:18:22,957 --> 00:18:25,037
You have to keep recalculating everything.

316
00:18:25,317 --> 00:18:29,617
And the fact that that's such a difficult calculation to do correctly.

317
00:18:29,997 --> 00:18:34,887
Um, and to predict things in the future becomes like price prediction rather

318
00:18:34,887 --> 00:18:40,157
than going by halving cycles, which are utterly rigidly defined with exact

319
00:18:40,167 --> 00:18:44,567
amounts that never vary, you know, that's, you're in a different world there.

320
00:18:44,938 --> 00:18:49,708
So, so for those who don't know, what does FPPS stand for?

321
00:18:49,858 --> 00:18:51,028
Like what's the abbreviation?

322
00:18:51,623 --> 00:18:55,563
Full paper share, and what this basically means is, every time you

323
00:18:55,563 --> 00:19:00,753
do a, you know, every time you prove some work and submit that valid work

324
00:19:00,853 --> 00:19:05,123
to the pool, the pool says, alright, you get this much sats for it.

325
00:19:05,548 --> 00:19:08,058
Regardless of if the pool found a block or not.

326
00:19:08,508 --> 00:19:09,118
Exactly.

327
00:19:09,198 --> 00:19:12,348
And the opposite would be another abbreviation, I suspect.

328
00:19:12,658 --> 00:19:13,058
Which

329
00:19:13,308 --> 00:19:18,518
the, the competing system ended up being PPLNS and what, uh, we have, we call

330
00:19:18,518 --> 00:19:22,458
it the TIDES payout system, obviously supposed to throw back to the fact that

331
00:19:22,458 --> 00:19:26,688
it's called ocean and we, you know, in keeping with the metaphors around the

332
00:19:26,688 --> 00:19:30,808
whole concept of permissionless mining, you know, pools versus the ocean, right?

333
00:19:31,138 --> 00:19:34,458
So TIDES obviously is sort of designed to be in keeping with that.

334
00:19:34,458 --> 00:19:37,298
It's a PPLNS derivative system.

335
00:19:37,818 --> 00:19:42,358
PPL& S is, but if you want to pay out your miners based on the blocks that are

336
00:19:42,358 --> 00:19:46,948
found, you basically cut up the block and give it to each miner depending on

337
00:19:46,968 --> 00:19:49,298
the percentage of work each miner did.

338
00:19:49,768 --> 00:19:54,048
Pretty logical, but if you just do it crudely with a straight up proportional

339
00:19:54,048 --> 00:19:55,828
payout system, it's gameable.

340
00:19:56,218 --> 00:19:59,808
Uh, everyone can, uh, there's something called pool hopping,

341
00:19:59,808 --> 00:20:03,268
where basically right after the network finds a block, you jump on.

342
00:20:03,853 --> 00:20:07,783
Sorry, right after the pool finds a block, you jump on and you mine with them for a

343
00:20:07,783 --> 00:20:11,843
short time because at that point you're doing, you're, you're a much bigger

344
00:20:11,853 --> 00:20:16,173
percentage than you would be if the pool's getting unlucky and you come and mine

345
00:20:16,173 --> 00:20:19,653
with them and you're submitting shares towards, you know, work that's going to

346
00:20:19,663 --> 00:20:22,573
be disproportionately poorly rewarded.

347
00:20:22,723 --> 00:20:26,953
So to get rid of pool hopping from directly proportional payouts, you

348
00:20:26,953 --> 00:20:29,203
have this system emerge called PPLNS.

349
00:20:29,808 --> 00:20:32,378
which is pay per last n shares.

350
00:20:32,798 --> 00:20:35,478
And what that does is it, it averages that out.

351
00:20:35,488 --> 00:20:39,648
So you need to mine with the pool for a while to start getting full rewards.

352
00:20:39,818 --> 00:20:42,698
But after you leave, you carry on getting rewarded, even if

353
00:20:42,698 --> 00:20:43,768
you're not mining with them.

354
00:20:44,048 --> 00:20:47,588
So that, that has this kind of ramp up and ramp down period, which means

355
00:20:47,588 --> 00:20:51,458
if you pool hop, it's a waste of everyone's time, including your own,

356
00:20:51,458 --> 00:20:52,928
and you might as well just stay there.

357
00:20:53,688 --> 00:20:58,308
Um, we disabled the ramp up period, which meant, because we didn't want,

358
00:20:58,808 --> 00:21:02,228
uh, miners to have to wait eight blocks, because that's how long our end value

359
00:21:02,228 --> 00:21:04,348
is, is eight network blocks, roughly.

360
00:21:04,718 --> 00:21:07,568
Um, that's, that's an approximation, because it depends

361
00:21:07,568 --> 00:21:08,978
on how lucky those blocks are.

362
00:21:09,328 --> 00:21:12,678
But, we disabled that ramp up period, because obviously we don't want fresh

363
00:21:12,718 --> 00:21:16,438
miners at a tiny pool, finding one block every week, if we're lucky.

364
00:21:16,763 --> 00:21:20,313
To have to wait eight weeks to get proper rewards because that's not viable.

365
00:21:20,313 --> 00:21:24,493
We disabled the ramp up that got dubbed as the bonus period, which

366
00:21:24,493 --> 00:21:26,013
a lot of people don't understand.

367
00:21:26,413 --> 00:21:30,613
That's been characterized as us giving miners our own money

368
00:21:30,633 --> 00:21:31,743
to try and make it worth it.

369
00:21:32,418 --> 00:21:33,328
We're not doing that.

370
00:21:33,368 --> 00:21:35,728
It's still just money coming from Bitcoin blocks.

371
00:21:36,018 --> 00:21:41,168
It's only a bonus in so much as if you ever leave the pool, you carry on getting

372
00:21:41,168 --> 00:21:44,788
rewarded for blocks after you've left, because the ramp down still exists.

373
00:21:45,478 --> 00:21:49,918
So, that's a fun thing to correct there, because I've seen a lot of people not

374
00:21:49,958 --> 00:21:53,748
understand what that is, or think we're literally paying people to mine for us.

375
00:21:53,748 --> 00:21:55,308
We are absolutely not doing that.

376
00:21:55,991 --> 00:21:57,201
so that's PPLNS.

377
00:21:57,261 --> 00:22:00,351
PPLNS is the opposing system to FPPS.

378
00:22:00,351 --> 00:22:00,791
It's PPLNS.

379
00:22:02,466 --> 00:22:06,896
The main way in which they are diametrically opposed is FPPS says I

380
00:22:06,896 --> 00:22:11,976
am a solo miner as a pool, I will deal with Bitcoin, and I want to rent some

381
00:22:11,976 --> 00:22:15,986
hash rate, and I will figure out a value of your rented hash rate, I can pay

382
00:22:15,986 --> 00:22:19,706
you in fiat if I want, you don't need to care if any blocks are found by the

383
00:22:19,706 --> 00:22:23,486
network, you have no way of verifying your own split of the fees within it,

384
00:22:23,776 --> 00:22:27,456
I am just going to pay you, you know, one sat per share and that's it, and I

385
00:22:27,456 --> 00:22:32,186
can pay you via fiat or whatever, and there's even one public mining pool

386
00:22:32,216 --> 00:22:37,246
that openly says we are not a bitcoin miner, we are a hashrate rental service,

387
00:22:37,286 --> 00:22:40,516
and we do this deliberately because we don't want regulators coming after us.

388
00:22:40,786 --> 00:22:43,166
We rent our hashrate to Foundry, that's it.

389
00:22:43,896 --> 00:22:47,736
It's nothing to do with Bitcoin, we are not a miner, and there are

390
00:22:47,896 --> 00:22:51,816
serious ramifications for, for, you know, for saying, you know, Bitcoin

391
00:22:52,356 --> 00:22:56,276
is decentralized, distributed proof of work, you know, when you have the people

392
00:22:56,276 --> 00:23:01,076
doing it that have that mentality, that is not without consequence, no way, so

393
00:23:01,076 --> 00:23:03,316
anyway, that's FPPS, Hashrate Rental.

394
00:23:03,661 --> 00:23:07,981
PPLNS is, I'm mining with a pool and I need that pool to find blocks

395
00:23:08,011 --> 00:23:09,641
because I don't get paid any other way.

396
00:23:10,591 --> 00:23:12,801
The pool isn't taking on any overhead or risk.

397
00:23:12,851 --> 00:23:17,031
The pool isn't absorbing all of the bad or good luck and pocketing the good

398
00:23:17,031 --> 00:23:21,551
luck and going bankrupt during bad luck potentially and having to maintain a

399
00:23:21,551 --> 00:23:23,721
big enough buffer for that to be viable.

400
00:23:24,226 --> 00:23:27,176
You know, if you have to maintain that, that buffer, that's a

401
00:23:27,176 --> 00:23:31,076
huge, uh, that's a huge piece of overhead you need to maintain.

402
00:23:31,236 --> 00:23:35,696
And ultimately it comes out of the miner's pockets, or results in a

403
00:23:35,696 --> 00:23:40,386
sort of clandestine system where it's all one giant system supported

404
00:23:40,386 --> 00:23:43,696
by the fact that Bitmain can also make money selling hardware and

405
00:23:43,696 --> 00:23:45,296
maintain the whole system that way.

406
00:23:45,296 --> 00:23:48,746
And you know, it's this anti competitive stuff going on there as well.

407
00:23:48,746 --> 00:23:52,956
So yeah, that's PPLNS is basically, you have to be a miner again.

408
00:23:53,196 --> 00:23:55,646
You want to mine in a pool because you get regular income.

409
00:23:55,646 --> 00:23:57,806
You stop, you solve the cash flow issues that come with

410
00:23:57,806 --> 00:23:59,326
solar mining, but that's it.

411
00:23:59,646 --> 00:24:03,676
After, uh, other than that, you still need blocks to be found, and your, your

412
00:24:03,676 --> 00:24:05,986
reward is based on what's in the block.

413
00:24:06,056 --> 00:24:06,626
That's it.

414
00:24:06,776 --> 00:24:08,936
So suddenly everyone cares about mining again.

415
00:24:08,936 --> 00:24:11,946
Every time Ocean finds a block, it blows up, for some reason.

416
00:24:11,946 --> 00:24:14,226
On Twitter, everyone cares that Ocean found a block.

417
00:24:14,691 --> 00:24:18,211
No one cares when Antpool finds a block, because it doesn't matter to any other

418
00:24:18,211 --> 00:24:20,041
people mining with them, it's irrelevant.

419
00:24:20,471 --> 00:24:24,141
So yeah, it's made a lot of fun come back to the mining space.

420
00:24:24,541 --> 00:24:28,871
that's a great marketing strategy, or like, uh, something you probably

421
00:24:28,871 --> 00:24:32,511
didn't think of, but that just happened to be a good attention.

422
00:24:32,586 --> 00:24:34,716
Trawler.

423
00:24:34,796 --> 00:24:35,036
Yeah.

424
00:24:35,201 --> 00:24:38,571
we're, we're, we're very good at accidentally blowing

425
00:24:38,571 --> 00:24:40,251
things up and being genius.

426
00:24:40,411 --> 00:24:42,531
We look like genius marketers, we're not.

427
00:24:42,531 --> 00:24:46,871
I think this is technically my department and like every single thing we do

428
00:24:46,871 --> 00:24:48,971
seems to cause a massive controversy.

429
00:24:49,271 --> 00:24:53,371
Whether it's not having the attitude about spam we do, whether it's the multiple

430
00:24:53,381 --> 00:24:58,051
templates, whether it's the fact that we found an empty block, which is a 0.

431
00:24:58,141 --> 00:25:02,271
1 percent of blocks are empty, and we have only found four.

432
00:25:02,571 --> 00:25:07,221
So the chances of us finding an empty block was so vanishingly unlikely, and we

433
00:25:07,221 --> 00:25:11,371
did, and of course the trolls came out in force, like, oh what are you doing, your

434
00:25:11,371 --> 00:25:13,471
spam filters are broken or something, and

435
00:25:13,586 --> 00:25:16,176
but this is, they're helping, they're helping you.

436
00:25:16,246 --> 00:25:19,576
I mean, this is, uh, reminds me of that Marilyn Monroe quote, like

437
00:25:19,646 --> 00:25:23,366
the only thing worse than being talked about than, than being talked

438
00:25:23,376 --> 00:25:24,866
about is not being talked about.

439
00:25:26,041 --> 00:25:28,591
I mean, the haters are definitely very helpful, but

440
00:25:28,591 --> 00:25:30,051
it's stressful at the same time

441
00:25:30,206 --> 00:25:31,076
Yeah, of course.

442
00:25:31,171 --> 00:25:33,001
if you shoot, you better not miss.

443
00:25:33,241 --> 00:25:36,921
And, you know, when I have to respond to these people, like particularly,

444
00:25:36,941 --> 00:25:41,511
like there's a few sort of the old guard that I really respect that have

445
00:25:41,511 --> 00:25:43,121
been taking a lot of shots at Ocean.

446
00:25:43,521 --> 00:25:46,531
And, you know, I'm really sitting there like, wait a minute, am I nuts here?

447
00:25:46,531 --> 00:25:50,421
Or is this guy that I've like admired for like 15 years.

448
00:25:51,226 --> 00:25:54,516
Straight up not understanding this, because all that stuff

449
00:25:54,516 --> 00:25:57,966
about FPPS that I just said, I don't think anyone understands it.

450
00:25:58,026 --> 00:25:59,126
Even the miners.

451
00:25:59,166 --> 00:26:02,656
Because miners are not, everyone's like, all miners care about is profit.

452
00:26:02,666 --> 00:26:05,516
If you're telling them you're going to exclude a few lucrative spam

453
00:26:05,516 --> 00:26:07,346
transactions, they will never go near you.

454
00:26:07,346 --> 00:26:08,136
It's that simple.

455
00:26:08,446 --> 00:26:12,126
And I'm saying, wait a minute, are you aware of all the other stuff going on?

456
00:26:12,336 --> 00:26:14,556
Because I don't think they are.

457
00:26:14,556 --> 00:26:16,816
I think what they're motivated by is cash flow.

458
00:26:17,121 --> 00:26:21,051
If you can mine with someone that can guarantee you a payout every 24 hours,

459
00:26:21,371 --> 00:26:25,361
there's a massive cost to that, but you can trade it off with the fact

460
00:26:25,361 --> 00:26:28,651
that you have energy bills you need to pay, and you can't be dealing with

461
00:26:28,651 --> 00:26:32,991
ambiguity around whether the pool got unlucky with blocks this week, so you

462
00:26:32,991 --> 00:26:34,691
will take a massive haircut for that.

463
00:26:34,851 --> 00:26:38,961
Yeah, I get paid 7 percent less mining over here, but I always know that my

464
00:26:38,961 --> 00:26:41,211
money is going to be there every 24 hours.

465
00:26:41,561 --> 00:26:43,701
That's, that's a different motivation.

466
00:26:43,701 --> 00:26:48,861
And it's still all about, you know, viability of economic incentives, right?

467
00:26:48,931 --> 00:26:53,341
So, you know, it's when we come along and we, we can make the opposite claim.

468
00:26:53,341 --> 00:26:55,191
We can say, look, we can't guarantee anything.

469
00:26:55,201 --> 00:26:57,061
We have no idea when we will find a block.

470
00:26:57,071 --> 00:26:58,241
It's six days from now.

471
00:26:58,241 --> 00:27:02,001
And in six days, it will still be six days because Poisson distributions

472
00:27:02,001 --> 00:27:03,511
are Poisson distributions, right?

473
00:27:03,861 --> 00:27:04,831
But you will get.

474
00:27:04,971 --> 00:27:08,441
Everything that's in the block that you're supposed to get, and you'll get

475
00:27:08,441 --> 00:27:13,571
it in the coinbase payout if it's over a million sats, which is immediate, right?

476
00:27:13,571 --> 00:27:16,921
You cut out the custodian in the middle, not your keys, not your coins.

477
00:27:17,261 --> 00:27:20,731
Obviously, the limitations of Bitcoin, I mean, we can't, if you're a tiny

478
00:27:20,731 --> 00:27:25,421
miner, we can't give you 10, 000 sats every block because it's useless to you.

479
00:27:25,421 --> 00:27:28,261
You won't even be able to spend it without burning the whole

480
00:27:28,261 --> 00:27:29,621
thing as a transaction fee.

481
00:27:29,971 --> 00:27:34,776
So, we got blasted over that as well, but like We'll have lightning to take care of

482
00:27:34,776 --> 00:27:40,076
that, uh, not too distant future and it's a pretty elegant setup we have for that,

483
00:27:40,566 --> 00:27:44,866
but yeah, like this accidental marketing thing of just pissing everyone off and

484
00:27:44,876 --> 00:27:49,296
having everything we do just become a massive scandal, it's been great, like

485
00:27:49,296 --> 00:27:54,426
it's, it's been fun, very stressful, uh, up and down, but you know, I think

486
00:27:54,476 --> 00:27:56,696
probably it's a massive net positive.

487
00:27:56,896 --> 00:27:57,446
We have 0.

488
00:27:57,486 --> 00:27:59,946
1 percent of the hash rate and all my time.

489
00:28:00,181 --> 00:28:04,541
Twitter does is blow up all day with notifications and, you know.

490
00:28:04,956 --> 00:28:05,136
Yeah.

491
00:28:05,136 --> 00:28:08,706
It's been beautiful to watch it from afar, these debates and as you say,

492
00:28:08,706 --> 00:28:11,286
with the other OGs that you respect.

493
00:28:11,286 --> 00:28:15,086
Like it's, it's very, it's very entertaining and, uh, edu

494
00:28:15,416 --> 00:28:19,256
educational to read it like, and, and to, to try to make sense of it.

495
00:28:19,488 --> 00:28:21,258
so I, I always.

496
00:28:22,033 --> 00:28:25,333
React when people say that Bitcoin is backed by energy, because I, I

497
00:28:25,353 --> 00:28:31,063
think it's a, uh, uh, that statement in itself is a misunderstanding of

498
00:28:31,163 --> 00:28:32,673
how many factors that play in this.

499
00:28:32,693 --> 00:28:37,603
It's a more accurate statement would say, be that Bitcoin is backed by human

500
00:28:37,603 --> 00:28:42,643
action, which in turn requires energy, but like we are the Bitcoins, right?

501
00:28:42,643 --> 00:28:47,223
Then we, we are the ones who are the actors who, who decide what to do and

502
00:28:47,223 --> 00:28:48,593
all the computers involved are just.

503
00:28:49,843 --> 00:28:56,113
And the hashing is important, but all it does is tell the network how difficult

504
00:28:56,113 --> 00:28:59,573
it should be to find the next bitcoin, so that bitcoin can be a clock, like,

505
00:28:59,833 --> 00:29:02,063
and tick tock next block and stuff.

506
00:29:02,796 --> 00:29:07,846
so, is this, you know, narrative that bitcoin is only the hashing power,

507
00:29:07,846 --> 00:29:14,151
is that the thing that has Is that narrative causing this potential

508
00:29:14,151 --> 00:29:15,851
attack factor that this spam is?

509
00:29:16,751 --> 00:29:22,241
Because it's becoming quite clear that mining can be centralized.

510
00:29:22,241 --> 00:29:26,321
If it's true what you're saying about the pools and them bailing

511
00:29:26,321 --> 00:29:29,451
each other out, we're back into a central banking situation here.

512
00:29:29,451 --> 00:29:31,851
And how big is this risk to begin with?

513
00:29:31,881 --> 00:29:35,701
And is it because of these digital energy narratives that

514
00:29:35,701 --> 00:29:36,991
we've ended up in this place?

515
00:29:37,011 --> 00:29:37,561
What is it?

516
00:29:38,217 --> 00:29:43,197
I think it's just to do with, um, a deviation from the theory, like, I

517
00:29:43,257 --> 00:29:47,327
don't even know how much Satoshi got into the concept of pooled mining.

518
00:29:48,082 --> 00:29:52,852
Pooled mining is, it's a, it's an obvious phenomenon that would emerge, but the

519
00:29:52,852 --> 00:29:59,202
problem is, like, assuming that a pool's economic incentives and rational actions

520
00:29:59,202 --> 00:30:03,772
would align with the other, you know, components of the Bitcoin ecosystem.

521
00:30:04,537 --> 00:30:09,347
It's like assuming Coinbase as a custodian would align with it all.

522
00:30:09,437 --> 00:30:11,197
It's totally nothing to do with it.

523
00:30:11,207 --> 00:30:15,347
It's a massive centralized entity that has to comply with government regulations

524
00:30:15,347 --> 00:30:17,027
to be allowed to continue to exist.

525
00:30:17,727 --> 00:30:22,337
So, the fact that they would magically line up with what it is Node users and

526
00:30:22,337 --> 00:30:26,764
people doing financial transactions would want, is a total fallacy, and

527
00:30:26,764 --> 00:30:32,917
people, and to this day, I just see impractical, philosophical, masturbatory

528
00:30:32,917 --> 00:30:37,237
discussion about, oh, a miner will always do XYZ, and I'm saying no one is

529
00:30:37,247 --> 00:30:39,737
mining, no one is solo mining, right?

530
00:30:39,797 --> 00:30:41,367
Everyone is using a pool.

531
00:30:41,617 --> 00:30:42,917
You have two pools.

532
00:30:43,003 --> 00:30:49,652
Foundry and Antpool that are way over 50%, so the fact that that is now, it's

533
00:30:49,692 --> 00:30:56,402
such a wide open hole, or an Achilles heel, and it doesn't matter, the fact

534
00:30:56,402 --> 00:31:01,432
that everyone can just switch mining pools should one of them act maliciously, is

535
00:31:01,452 --> 00:31:06,832
demonstrably just not happening, because they are acting maliciously, and I think,

536
00:31:06,842 --> 00:31:10,512
it's not the narratives exactly, no, it's No, I'm going to agree with you.

537
00:31:10,532 --> 00:31:14,242
The narratives are a big problem because they don't reflect reality.

538
00:31:14,652 --> 00:31:16,632
The miners are not miners anymore.

539
00:31:16,642 --> 00:31:17,822
They are just hashes.

540
00:31:17,822 --> 00:31:21,842
And I've been trying to change this, this part of the lexicon for months now.

541
00:31:21,852 --> 00:31:26,562
I'm saying you cannot go, like Bob Burnett is a great, uh, is someone

542
00:31:26,562 --> 00:31:27,992
that just got it immediately.

543
00:31:28,002 --> 00:31:30,822
Like we had a, we had a phone call right at the beginning when I joined

544
00:31:30,822 --> 00:31:35,062
Ocean and I told him like, look, miners aren't making block templates anymore.

545
00:31:35,382 --> 00:31:38,962
Now he's, he's the first, uh, first one we talked to this stuff about,

546
00:31:39,102 --> 00:31:40,652
like, uh, a couple of months back.

547
00:31:40,692 --> 00:31:42,672
We had him on and talked about exactly this.

548
00:31:42,862 --> 00:31:44,552
Yeah, he's, he's fantastic.

549
00:31:44,562 --> 00:31:47,742
He's one of the few people of that generation that just

550
00:31:47,752 --> 00:31:49,782
gets Bitcoin on a deep level.

551
00:31:50,122 --> 00:31:53,272
Like, he's not, there's a lot of other guys that I really like too,

552
00:31:53,272 --> 00:31:56,982
like Greg Foss and Lawrence Leopard and Lynn Alden and all those people.

553
00:31:57,322 --> 00:32:01,167
Like, they, The understand the greater environment and all that stuff, but

554
00:32:01,167 --> 00:32:05,117
when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of where Bitcoin has weak points, Bob

555
00:32:05,117 --> 00:32:09,967
is just absolutely on fire with this stuff, and when we sat down with him

556
00:32:09,967 --> 00:32:14,157
and Ocean and we discussed these, I get it, and he just said, I want to be

557
00:32:14,157 --> 00:32:17,987
a Bitcoin miner for real, I don't want to LARP about the whole thing and just

558
00:32:17,997 --> 00:32:23,947
be hashing Solving blocks sent to me by Foundry or Antpool or F2Pool or whatever.

559
00:32:24,357 --> 00:32:26,197
It's like, I want to actually be a miner again.

560
00:32:26,217 --> 00:32:30,167
It doesn't matter how much you distribute the hash rate around the planet.

561
00:32:30,277 --> 00:32:34,877
If the, if all of the template construction is going on by a tiny group

562
00:32:34,877 --> 00:32:41,547
of people, that means a cartel with basically one or two, you know, loosely

563
00:32:41,547 --> 00:32:48,157
competitive entities is deciding what goes in the blockchain and where all new coins

564
00:32:48,157 --> 00:32:54,557
get sent once they're, once that's, you know, defined, that's not decentralized.

565
00:32:54,617 --> 00:32:58,807
It's, that is a, the obvious central choke point of Bitcoin at this point.

566
00:32:59,137 --> 00:33:03,807
So if you have miners caring about this stuff by being actual miners

567
00:33:03,807 --> 00:33:09,107
again, rather than just hashes, then I think my favorite way of describing

568
00:33:09,107 --> 00:33:13,517
it was, if you have a pool, start complying with government crap.

569
00:33:13,762 --> 00:33:17,322
Saying we're going to actually censor, we're going to block OFAC.

570
00:33:17,862 --> 00:33:22,172
Uh, you know, in accordance with the OFAC list, or we're going to all equal

571
00:33:22,172 --> 00:33:26,152
output coin joins, we're not going to include them in our blocks anymore, or,

572
00:33:26,552 --> 00:33:30,592
you know, any other controversial type of transaction, like here were a bunch

573
00:33:30,592 --> 00:33:34,622
of coins associated, UTXOs associated with the Silk Road, we're not going to

574
00:33:34,622 --> 00:33:37,872
put them in our blocks if anyone tries to spend them, anything like that,

575
00:33:37,872 --> 00:33:42,532
that's clearly some sort of bootlicking, government complying thing, if you only

576
00:33:42,532 --> 00:33:46,577
have a couple of people constructing templates, It becomes realistic to

577
00:33:46,577 --> 00:33:48,517
actually stop those things from moving.

578
00:33:48,727 --> 00:33:51,517
If you have thousands of people making templates, then it becomes

579
00:33:51,517 --> 00:33:54,467
a silly exercise in futility.

580
00:33:54,527 --> 00:33:57,027
And that is the position you want to be in, right?

581
00:33:57,057 --> 00:34:01,137
You want thousands of people making templates because then when you're making

582
00:34:01,137 --> 00:34:07,827
transactions, even if 500 people Pools making templates, for example, even

583
00:34:07,827 --> 00:34:10,667
if all of them hate your transaction, it doesn't matter, because there's

584
00:34:10,667 --> 00:34:12,747
another 5, 000 people that don't care.

585
00:34:13,057 --> 00:34:13,977
That's what you want.

586
00:34:14,277 --> 00:34:17,917
And right now, most people's idea of censorship resistance in Bitcoin

587
00:34:17,997 --> 00:34:21,517
that emerged after Ocean had one template that would block all the

588
00:34:21,517 --> 00:34:25,487
spam, everyone said, you're attacking Bitcoin censorship resistance.

589
00:34:25,877 --> 00:34:29,187
And I'm saying, this is not Credibly censorship resistant.

590
00:34:29,417 --> 00:34:33,257
There are so few people making templates and Ocean is one of that tiny group

591
00:34:33,257 --> 00:34:37,367
of people that you think the solution is yelling at us on Twitter for not

592
00:34:37,377 --> 00:34:39,047
including a transaction you like.

593
00:34:39,417 --> 00:34:43,127
The solution is you need thousands of people in our position and then

594
00:34:43,137 --> 00:34:47,607
you don't care when we do this because if we do this and you don't

595
00:34:47,607 --> 00:34:49,457
like it, you can just laugh at us.

596
00:34:49,637 --> 00:34:52,557
Instead, you're melting down because someone is.

597
00:34:52,892 --> 00:34:57,562
exercising the freedom as a miner to put what transactions they like in blocks.

598
00:34:57,952 --> 00:35:00,642
There is no obligation to put a transaction in a

599
00:35:00,642 --> 00:35:01,762
block if you don't want to.

600
00:35:02,072 --> 00:35:04,652
If you're trying to force people to put stuff in blocks they don't

601
00:35:04,652 --> 00:35:09,182
want to, beyond the financial incentive you offer, that's coercion.

602
00:35:09,402 --> 00:35:11,842
That's the flip side of the censorship coin.

603
00:35:12,072 --> 00:35:14,822
Because forcing us to exclude stuff is censorship.

604
00:35:15,032 --> 00:35:19,382
Forcing us to include stuff due to the limited block size Is

605
00:35:19,412 --> 00:35:22,902
also censorship, because we're just foregoing something else.

606
00:35:23,162 --> 00:35:26,082
If you force us to put spam in blocks, you're forcing us to

607
00:35:26,082 --> 00:35:28,252
censor real financial transactions.

608
00:35:28,512 --> 00:35:32,442
And because of the coercive element, that is more credible as a claim of censorship.

609
00:35:32,802 --> 00:35:36,232
All we said is, we do not want to put this stuff in blocks, we find it harmful.

610
00:35:36,582 --> 00:35:40,952
But the whole point of our product is the antithetical to that, which is when

611
00:35:40,952 --> 00:35:45,782
miners make their own templates, which is the goal of Ocean, are you guys going

612
00:35:45,782 --> 00:35:48,862
to block templates that contain spam?

613
00:35:48,862 --> 00:35:51,472
And we said, of course not, because that defeats the whole point.

614
00:35:51,792 --> 00:35:53,872
When our miners are making their own templates, they can

615
00:35:53,872 --> 00:35:55,392
put whatever they like in them.

616
00:35:55,652 --> 00:35:59,422
In fact, ideally, we won't even be able to tell what they put in them until

617
00:35:59,422 --> 00:36:02,042
they find the valid block, and then there's nothing we can do about it.

618
00:36:02,412 --> 00:36:04,872
The only thing we want to know about blocks is, did you do

619
00:36:04,872 --> 00:36:06,382
the reward split correctly?

620
00:36:07,067 --> 00:36:07,587
That's it.

621
00:36:07,957 --> 00:36:11,647
Other than that, do what you like, because this is how you create

622
00:36:11,647 --> 00:36:13,157
censorship resistance in Bitcoin.

623
00:36:13,509 --> 00:36:16,979
That sounds a lot, sounds a lot like what Wasabi is doing, yeah.

624
00:36:17,381 --> 00:36:20,781
Wasabi's a great product, and, uh, they got, they're,

625
00:36:20,801 --> 00:36:22,161
they're equally controversial.

626
00:36:22,301 --> 00:36:26,771
I do, like, I understand the criticism there is more understandable, of course,

627
00:36:27,041 --> 00:36:32,851
because, you know, they, they're, they're using a list inspired by government.

628
00:36:33,091 --> 00:36:34,691
You know, legislation of sorts.

629
00:36:35,081 --> 00:36:38,801
I'm not sure what the nature of the list is, but there's some sort of chain

630
00:36:38,801 --> 00:36:44,641
analysis firm that's coming up with a list of UTXOs that are bad for some reason.

631
00:36:45,111 --> 00:36:50,086
In my estimation with this, if, because I don't work for Wasabi, Uh, I feel

632
00:36:50,086 --> 00:36:53,236
like this is the thing they can't say that I wish everyone would shut up

633
00:36:53,286 --> 00:36:57,756
and read between the lines about, is they can either fight this useless

634
00:36:57,796 --> 00:37:01,886
piece of legislation and be embroiled in lawsuits for the next 10 years and

635
00:37:01,886 --> 00:37:05,866
kill the product, or they can comply with it And it's when it's completely

636
00:37:05,876 --> 00:37:10,306
ineffective nature, like if you are on this blacklist and wasabi won't let you

637
00:37:10,326 --> 00:37:15,046
use their coin join service, just go one extra hop, just send the bitcoin

638
00:37:15,316 --> 00:37:17,016
from here to here and then do it.

639
00:37:17,016 --> 00:37:17,646
And it's fine.

640
00:37:17,656 --> 00:37:19,846
And they're going to turn a blind eye to it.

641
00:37:20,186 --> 00:37:23,686
And, like, it's a practical way where you can get around it.

642
00:37:23,686 --> 00:37:28,806
I understand, in principle, if that makes you too sick, then fair enough, but, in my

643
00:37:28,806 --> 00:37:34,196
opinion, it just, on, like, read between the lines, like, they're trying to, you

644
00:37:34,196 --> 00:37:35,866
know, you're trying to outlast the state.

645
00:37:35,896 --> 00:37:37,716
We know the state's days are numbered.

646
00:37:38,001 --> 00:37:41,631
To some extent, because of how much Bitcoin undermines them by taking away

647
00:37:41,631 --> 00:37:46,001
the money printer, just let Wasabi do what it needs to do for now, like

648
00:37:46,001 --> 00:37:50,201
it's going to make your stuff private, it's not actually broken software, so

649
00:37:50,741 --> 00:37:54,541
this is my sort of, I understand if anyone wants to be philosophically,

650
00:37:54,591 --> 00:37:56,496
you know, it's iCal about it.

651
00:37:56,826 --> 00:37:57,606
Fair enough.

652
00:37:57,636 --> 00:38:01,836
They are like, I think there's even some financial benefit to the

653
00:38:01,836 --> 00:38:05,256
chain analysis company 'cause they have to buy the data from them.

654
00:38:05,496 --> 00:38:09,216
So that's something that might make you very sick to do if

655
00:38:09,216 --> 00:38:10,956
you are, you know, with abi.

656
00:38:10,956 --> 00:38:14,106
But, uh, I think, you know, I, I'll definitely give them the

657
00:38:14,106 --> 00:38:15,126
benefit of the doubt with it.

658
00:38:15,510 --> 00:38:20,450
I know that, that exact thing that you, you, uh, talked about, the sending a 2

659
00:38:20,450 --> 00:38:22,740
1 hop or whatever, that actually works.

660
00:38:23,110 --> 00:38:24,760
I'm not gonna say how I know that.

661
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,117
Yeah, I, I, I know how that, that works exactly, but no, we've, we've

662
00:38:29,127 --> 00:38:32,708
had Max, uh, Hillebrand and, uh, also Rafa, who's he is one of the

663
00:38:32,708 --> 00:38:34,448
contributors there, uh, on the show.

664
00:38:34,448 --> 00:38:36,008
We're, we're, we're friends with those guys.

665
00:38:36,008 --> 00:38:39,788
And yeah, wasabi is, uh, definitely, definitely great.

666
00:38:40,088 --> 00:38:45,688
I mean, it, it, it works really well and I mean, yeah, so, so interesting to hear

667
00:38:45,688 --> 00:38:49,618
your, your take on the matter, but I can confirm that exactly what you said works.

668
00:38:49,708 --> 00:38:50,008
So,

669
00:38:50,333 --> 00:38:52,583
That's, I've never had that confirmed to me before.

670
00:38:52,583 --> 00:38:54,143
I've just read between the lines,

671
00:38:54,674 --> 00:38:58,294
Alright, you might have noticed that we've recently partnered with AmberApp.

672
00:38:58,585 --> 00:39:02,915
After our episode with Izzy, their CEO, and our close friend, we knew we

673
00:39:02,915 --> 00:39:06,319
would have to partner with them in some way, If you haven't seen our episode

674
00:39:06,319 --> 00:39:10,409
with Izzy, definitely go check it out, you'll see why it's such a great fit,

675
00:39:10,659 --> 00:39:14,589
and honestly, they're following the orange glowing light like Izzy always

676
00:39:14,589 --> 00:39:18,679
says, and that's exactly what we try to do here at the Freedom Footprint Show.

677
00:39:19,004 --> 00:39:21,343
The big news about AmberApp is that they're going to be

678
00:39:21,343 --> 00:39:23,153
launching their version 2.

679
00:39:23,369 --> 00:39:26,879
I've seen some of the screenshots and it looks fantastic.

680
00:39:27,174 --> 00:39:30,985
They're going to be including a non custodial on chain wallet, an

681
00:39:31,005 --> 00:39:35,257
anonymous lightning wallet, a fiat wallet, And finally, it's going

682
00:39:35,257 --> 00:39:36,597
to be an exchange, of course.

683
00:39:36,837 --> 00:39:39,740
it's going to be just this super app,  They're also going

684
00:39:39,740 --> 00:39:41,090
to be launching globally.

685
00:39:41,110 --> 00:39:42,660
Everyone's going to be able to use it.

686
00:39:42,900 --> 00:39:44,630
we're really excited about all that.

687
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,400
Stay tuned with us and you'll hear all about it.

688
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,950
And for now, check out their website, amber.

689
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,910
app and the episode with Izzy to find out more.

690
00:39:53,217 --> 00:39:57,007
Maybe I can take us in a slightly different direction because I think

691
00:39:57,267 --> 00:40:03,517
the discussion so far has been about kind of the technical apparatus of

692
00:40:03,517 --> 00:40:05,687
what Ocean is actually doing, right?

693
00:40:05,687 --> 00:40:09,937
But what about the problems that are happening around the network right now?

694
00:40:09,937 --> 00:40:15,362
Everything to do with, say, For example, Ordinals and the mempool being

695
00:40:15,382 --> 00:40:17,432
completely full, all this and that.

696
00:40:18,012 --> 00:40:19,292
Do you have any take on that?

697
00:40:19,292 --> 00:40:23,402
Like, what's the real problem, the real risk of all this happening?

698
00:40:23,402 --> 00:40:27,152
Because it's an interesting coincidence that Ordinals came up in the

699
00:40:27,152 --> 00:40:29,272
course of this same period of time.

700
00:40:29,610 --> 00:40:32,710
Yeah, I mean, it all happens for a reason, right?

701
00:40:32,770 --> 00:40:40,970
I know this is, um, it's a very funny coincidence, because we now, we did get

702
00:40:41,050 --> 00:40:45,620
accused of one point of being the cause of the spam attack for our own benefit,

703
00:40:45,990 --> 00:40:51,640
because it's such a perfect thing for a problem we're trying to be solved.

704
00:40:52,860 --> 00:40:58,150
That we're trying to solve to be so manifestly awful at the

705
00:40:58,230 --> 00:41:01,310
exact time that we launched the product that solves that problem.

706
00:41:01,350 --> 00:41:05,190
So, I understand that sort of smooth brain conspiracy theory

707
00:41:05,190 --> 00:41:06,330
that floated around for a while.

708
00:41:06,330 --> 00:41:11,090
But no, demonstrably made life incredibly difficult for us, uh,

709
00:41:11,110 --> 00:41:13,240
having this anti spam policy.

710
00:41:13,610 --> 00:41:16,680
Um, so it's not something we cynically are doing.

711
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,060
We're not the originator of the stamped spam.

712
00:41:19,370 --> 00:41:23,980
Or the inscription spam, just to shill our own product as a solution for it.

713
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:24,760
But,

714
00:41:24,910 --> 00:41:25,310
hope not.

715
00:41:25,510 --> 00:41:30,500
but the fact that that is something you might sort of in a, in a cannabis

716
00:41:30,510 --> 00:41:32,700
inspired moment go, Oh, right.

717
00:41:32,790 --> 00:41:34,150
Like there is a link there.

718
00:41:34,750 --> 00:41:38,930
Does kind of reveal something about the, the happy coincidental nature of it.

719
00:41:39,305 --> 00:41:41,565
this spam is at the worst it's ever been.

720
00:41:41,885 --> 00:41:45,905
So I've totally dismissed this argument people keep making of, don't

721
00:41:45,905 --> 00:41:47,975
worry, the spam will be priced out.

722
00:41:48,230 --> 00:41:50,070
By genuine financial transactions.

723
00:41:50,330 --> 00:41:52,800
Why is that an assumption everyone keeps making?

724
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,350
It demonstrably is moving in the opposite direction.

725
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,450
There is more spam than there's ever been.

726
00:41:57,670 --> 00:42:01,060
And to me, it's like the argument of saying there won't be casinos in a few

727
00:42:01,060 --> 00:42:05,350
years because everyone knows that casinos make more money than they lose and people

728
00:42:05,350 --> 00:42:06,940
will eventually just run out of money.

729
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:08,670
So there just won't be casinos.

730
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,425
I'm like, that is Obviously not true.

731
00:42:11,435 --> 00:42:15,115
Your worldview lacks some sort of essential piece of information

732
00:42:15,115 --> 00:42:16,505
because that's not happening.

733
00:42:16,745 --> 00:42:21,905
So the idea that there's just going to be a natural cessation to abuse of the

734
00:42:21,915 --> 00:42:26,445
blockchain for an unintended purpose that bullies out the real intended purpose

735
00:42:26,445 --> 00:42:31,245
of it is a ridiculous assumption that is demonstrably practically not happening.

736
00:42:31,555 --> 00:42:37,515
And also, it's more fundamentally, to speak to your point, when you bastardize

737
00:42:37,565 --> 00:42:42,270
the intention of the whole Bitcoin project, By making it, something that can

738
00:42:42,270 --> 00:42:47,010
be used for its unintended purposes, you just create an economic externality, and

739
00:42:47,010 --> 00:42:51,380
this has been, this is philosophically just something you can reject, right?

740
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,750
And Andreas made this point years ago, like, if you're coming up with altcoins,

741
00:42:55,710 --> 00:43:00,440
who do useful proof of work, like find prime numbers, or fold protein DNA, or

742
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:06,550
something like that, If the value of prime numbers is ever up or down, you're

743
00:43:06,610 --> 00:43:12,260
creating more mess and chaos in an already chaotic system of price discovery.

744
00:43:12,300 --> 00:43:13,700
Bitcoin's already all over the place.

745
00:43:13,700 --> 00:43:17,780
You don't want mining to have some sort of other element that adds

746
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,910
more noise and more variables to it.

747
00:43:19,910 --> 00:43:23,760
Like, the whole point is that money shouldn't do anything else than be money.

748
00:43:23,770 --> 00:43:26,610
If you can eat it, or if you can put it in your car, or any

749
00:43:26,610 --> 00:43:28,080
of that stuff, it degrades it.

750
00:43:28,585 --> 00:43:34,175
Purely monetary value, and the block space should be a competition amongst

751
00:43:34,185 --> 00:43:39,375
people engaging in genuine financial activity, engaging in fake financial

752
00:43:39,375 --> 00:43:43,005
activity that represents markets that are nothing to do with Bitcoin,

753
00:43:43,295 --> 00:43:47,415
like the buying and selling of intellectual property to steal man NFTs.

754
00:43:47,965 --> 00:43:51,125
You know, that's, it's irrelevant to Bitcoin having to do that.

755
00:43:51,125 --> 00:43:52,315
It can't enforce it.

756
00:43:52,315 --> 00:43:54,735
So we know the whole thing is kind of a joke anyway.

757
00:43:55,075 --> 00:43:59,305
But even if it could, this is not, we don't want to subject the block space

758
00:43:59,435 --> 00:44:06,140
market to the whims of these pump and dump Things that are not native to it

759
00:44:06,340 --> 00:44:11,440
and add more noise and more problems into the, into an already chaotic system.

760
00:44:11,610 --> 00:44:13,680
You don't want to introduce economic externalities.

761
00:44:13,820 --> 00:44:18,420
You want to limit what the blockchain can do to the confines of what's

762
00:44:18,430 --> 00:44:20,950
logical, which is spam filtration.

763
00:44:20,950 --> 00:44:21,660
We need this.

764
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:24,760
To only contain genuine financial transactions.

765
00:44:25,010 --> 00:44:28,710
That's not to say we can totally objectively define spam and

766
00:44:28,710 --> 00:44:30,480
block all of it out effectively.

767
00:44:30,610 --> 00:44:33,020
There's always going to be some arbitrary data.

768
00:44:33,310 --> 00:44:34,590
We, we accepted that.

769
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,000
That's why OpReturn exists in the first place, right?

770
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:42,490
But, we need to keep it to a minimum, and we need to understand, as a community,

771
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:47,860
why it's important to do that, and we need to reject the idea that you can make all

772
00:44:47,860 --> 00:44:51,700
this extra money by including it, because it barely works out to anything, and on

773
00:44:51,700 --> 00:44:54,370
a practical level, You can reject it.

774
00:44:54,660 --> 00:44:58,970
The one mechanism you have as a miner for rejecting it, which is going to ocean, is

775
00:44:58,990 --> 00:45:01,240
probably going to result in more money.

776
00:45:01,430 --> 00:45:04,550
I still don't, I don't want to be quoted on this yet because

777
00:45:04,550 --> 00:45:05,770
we still haven't proved it.

778
00:45:06,250 --> 00:45:09,530
But I mean, this is definitely going to be taken out of context at this point.

779
00:45:09,540 --> 00:45:13,290
If we turn out to be wrong about this, I expect to be absolutely blasted for it.

780
00:45:13,630 --> 00:45:14,990
But I'm just saying it's a hunch.

781
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,800
And if that's the reality of it, if you can, if you can observe and be honest

782
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:22,490
about the fact that this stuff is toxic to the Bitcoin network, and it's not.

783
00:45:22,510 --> 00:45:25,440
Financially disadvantageous for you to reject it.

784
00:45:25,940 --> 00:45:30,050
Then you have every reason to do what's good for Bitcoin because there's no,

785
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,260
it's just a lack of education that would prevent you from doing so.

786
00:45:33,788 --> 00:45:38,698
Yeah, this is a point that both Mises and Hayek and Rothbard pointed to as

787
00:45:38,698 --> 00:45:44,328
well, that the other use cases for gold than just money, the industrial

788
00:45:44,328 --> 00:45:48,928
use case and the jewelry use case, actually make gold a worse form of

789
00:45:48,928 --> 00:45:50,468
money, not a better form of money.

790
00:45:50,823 --> 00:45:51,423
Exactly.

791
00:45:52,263 --> 00:45:55,683
You money needs to be limited to, this is the, it is free markets.

792
00:45:55,688 --> 00:45:57,693
Free markets need to be within.

793
00:45:57,933 --> 00:46:01,493
The, the boundaries of what the thing is that you're buying and selling.

794
00:46:02,073 --> 00:46:03,243
That's just a given.

795
00:46:03,463 --> 00:46:07,823
And also, appeals to free market economics with a fiat money printer

796
00:46:07,823 --> 00:46:10,863
existing that can funnel money through venture capitalists into

797
00:46:10,863 --> 00:46:13,253
JPEG scams is not a free market.

798
00:46:13,718 --> 00:46:15,018
That's an illusion.

799
00:46:15,058 --> 00:46:20,038
So again, Reid Seyfardin, you know, I don't know how, how, how big of a

800
00:46:20,038 --> 00:46:23,638
fan you are, but I love, you know, I love a lot of what he's talked about.

801
00:46:23,914 --> 00:46:27,974
the idea of fiat economics just corrupting everything and making everything.

802
00:46:28,254 --> 00:46:32,834
Markets not reflect true value at all, like, you know, using a house as a store

803
00:46:32,834 --> 00:46:37,144
of value instead of a place to live, like, because the money's so broken, etc.

804
00:46:37,554 --> 00:46:42,134
Like, the free market, appeals to free markets to fix everything

805
00:46:42,134 --> 00:46:46,364
in Bitcoin is just so utterly naive that it drives me crazy.

806
00:46:46,394 --> 00:46:50,844
Like, you need active work, you need developers working for free in

807
00:46:50,844 --> 00:46:53,844
their spare time because they care about this thing to make it better.

808
00:46:54,234 --> 00:46:58,149
That's not Like, you can always find some selfish motivation if you like,

809
00:46:58,169 --> 00:47:03,049
but ultimately people need to care about Bitcoin to make it work in the future.

810
00:47:03,069 --> 00:47:07,569
If they don't, it's not just tragedy of the commons, it's where

811
00:47:07,569 --> 00:47:09,809
did the genius spark come from?

812
00:47:09,819 --> 00:47:10,889
Who was motivated?

813
00:47:11,009 --> 00:47:15,119
Who cared about humanity's suffering under fiat enough to invent Bitcoin?

814
00:47:15,759 --> 00:47:17,979
It's, it's about caring ultimately.

815
00:47:17,979 --> 00:47:19,059
You have to care.

816
00:47:19,476 --> 00:47:24,076
Yeah, yeah, but this is the thing, like when they appeal to free markets,

817
00:47:24,486 --> 00:47:28,781
they don't actually mean free markets, like, because Bitcoin is Sort of

818
00:47:28,781 --> 00:47:30,111
the only free market there is.

819
00:47:30,141 --> 00:47:32,911
They mean the fiat free market, which is not free.

820
00:47:32,911 --> 00:47:37,271
It's, it's, as you say, someone has a money printer and therefore it's skewed.

821
00:47:37,281 --> 00:47:42,591
It's, it's not, it's not a, uh, an honest representation

822
00:47:42,611 --> 00:47:44,031
of what a free market would do.

823
00:47:44,321 --> 00:47:48,051
So that, which reminds me of, uh, I guess you've seen them too,

824
00:47:48,051 --> 00:47:51,891
all these tweets about, uh, um, where the money's coming from.

825
00:47:52,551 --> 00:47:58,071
So, like, this list of who's funding the, uh, Ordinal's, the Taproot

826
00:47:58,111 --> 00:48:02,481
Wizards, and there are even, there are connections to BSV people, to

827
00:48:02,691 --> 00:48:07,121
Ethereum people, and even to the CCP, the Chinese government, like, the,

828
00:48:07,151 --> 00:48:09,821
uh, So, how, how worried should we be?

829
00:48:09,831 --> 00:48:10,961
Is Bitcoin broken?

830
00:48:10,981 --> 00:48:11,631
Like, what is this?

831
00:48:12,256 --> 00:48:16,816
yes, Bitcoin in a practical sense can be attacked for basically no money at all,

832
00:48:16,816 --> 00:48:21,546
it turns out, and this is, again, it's, it's Giga brains not understanding how

833
00:48:21,546 --> 00:48:25,886
stupidity can destroy stuff, like, you can design the most genius product in

834
00:48:25,886 --> 00:48:30,156
the world, but you forget the fact that some idiot's gonna bash his wife over

835
00:48:30,156 --> 00:48:33,926
the head with it, and you need to somehow take that into consideration, right?

836
00:48:34,056 --> 00:48:37,546
Now you've gotta write a label on it saying, this is not a weapon,

837
00:48:37,546 --> 00:48:38,856
or something like that, right?

838
00:48:39,056 --> 00:48:39,306
Like,

839
00:48:39,456 --> 00:48:42,036
Employees must wash hands after

840
00:48:42,501 --> 00:48:46,451
Yeah, right, or like, you know, caution, the hot, the coffee is hot, right?

841
00:48:46,461 --> 00:48:49,941
Like, or any of these things that, like, you know, this is, this is

842
00:48:49,941 --> 00:48:51,621
the bane of humanity's existence.

843
00:48:51,641 --> 00:48:54,401
You can't, you can't, it's not just litigation though, right?

844
00:48:54,401 --> 00:48:59,401
It's just the fact that you, you have to take into account stupidity and malice,

845
00:48:59,401 --> 00:49:03,801
which usually means 99 percent of what we could have had isn't possible, because

846
00:49:03,801 --> 00:49:07,401
there's always that, there's always that tiny contingent of people that

847
00:49:07,401 --> 00:49:10,861
can use something for its unintended purpose, which means we have to Walk

848
00:49:10,861 --> 00:49:12,701
away from 99 percent of the features.

849
00:49:13,211 --> 00:49:13,761
Fair enough.

850
00:49:13,811 --> 00:49:14,861
These things happen.

851
00:49:16,181 --> 00:49:20,931
Like Francis Puglio, um, you know, I had a signal chat with him ages ago.

852
00:49:20,961 --> 00:49:25,251
And to my surprise, he sort of posted a screenshot of it, uh, of something he said

853
00:49:25,261 --> 00:49:27,211
within it on Twitter saying, this is it.

854
00:49:27,716 --> 00:49:31,266
Like, you can, the gigabrains are saying, how much money does it

855
00:49:31,266 --> 00:49:33,156
cost to 51 percent attack bitcoin?

856
00:49:33,416 --> 00:49:36,546
Okay, you need to spend X amount of billions of dollars getting all the hash

857
00:49:36,546 --> 00:49:41,466
rate in the ASICs, and then you need to do this, uh, you need to maliciously cause as

858
00:49:41,466 --> 00:49:45,346
much disruption as possible, you need to orphan as many blocks as possible, maybe

859
00:49:45,346 --> 00:49:49,556
you do a whole hundred block reorg, just to really cause chaos, and you do a bunch

860
00:49:49,556 --> 00:49:53,506
of spending in that time while the honest network proceeds, and you double spend

861
00:49:53,526 --> 00:49:54,946
everything in this hundred block reorg.

862
00:49:55,181 --> 00:49:57,081
You completely trash Bitcoin's value.

863
00:49:57,391 --> 00:49:59,651
How many billions of dollars is it going to cost to do that?

864
00:49:59,651 --> 00:50:01,231
What's the best bang for your buck?

865
00:50:01,621 --> 00:50:06,191
In reality, you spend a few million bucks financing absolute retards

866
00:50:06,531 --> 00:50:10,401
and you get them to spam the network and believe in a system.

867
00:50:11,386 --> 00:50:14,906
You just need it to reach escape velocity, because you're going to burn

868
00:50:14,906 --> 00:50:18,946
yourself out of money pretty quickly, but if you can do enough marketing that

869
00:50:18,956 --> 00:50:23,466
the idiots can sustain it by buying pictures of apes or whatever, if you

870
00:50:23,466 --> 00:50:28,191
can get it to reach that threshold where it becomes self sustaining, then Then

871
00:50:28,201 --> 00:50:32,671
you don't need to keep funding it, and that's, that's a very viable attack.

872
00:50:32,721 --> 00:50:36,631
You've, you've stopped Bitcoin for being useful for its, uh, intended purpose.

873
00:50:36,811 --> 00:50:40,991
You've effectively shrunk the block size, and we know that makes life harder for

874
00:50:41,051 --> 00:50:45,511
people doing genuine financial activity, without the benefit of shrinking the

875
00:50:45,511 --> 00:50:48,871
block size, because nodes still have to store all this data, they still have

876
00:50:48,871 --> 00:50:51,581
to process it, you still have the time.

877
00:50:51,761 --> 00:50:55,621
The lag between one pool finding a block and another pool downloading it

878
00:50:55,621 --> 00:50:59,281
and verifying what's in it, you still have the disadvantage of that being

879
00:50:59,281 --> 00:51:00,811
more data than it might have been.

880
00:51:01,161 --> 00:51:03,531
So right now you have the worst of small blocks and the

881
00:51:03,531 --> 00:51:05,621
worst of big blocks combining.

882
00:51:06,031 --> 00:51:06,861
That's no good.

883
00:51:07,081 --> 00:51:08,371
It's a very effective attack.

884
00:51:08,371 --> 00:51:09,321
It's very cheap.

885
00:51:09,681 --> 00:51:14,601
And it's something that It's easy to mitigate, in my estimation, but

886
00:51:14,601 --> 00:51:19,551
it's not easy to mitigate if everyone is so gaslit and pretending and

887
00:51:19,551 --> 00:51:23,901
engaging in philosophical whataboutism and saying, but what is spam?

888
00:51:24,211 --> 00:51:27,711
How can we define what a legitimate use case is and what it isn't?

889
00:51:28,191 --> 00:51:33,061
And I'm saying, look, On a practical level, this is, this is potentially a

890
00:51:33,061 --> 00:51:35,331
very risky analogy, but I'll make it.

891
00:51:35,691 --> 00:51:41,751
In El Salvador, Bukele rounded up basically all of the problems that are

892
00:51:41,751 --> 00:51:45,511
making everyone's life in the country miserable and threw them all in prison.

893
00:51:45,871 --> 00:51:50,291
And it's taken me a long time to reconcile whether I'm okay with this or not.

894
00:51:50,341 --> 00:51:55,651
It obviously violates so many principles that almost every Bitcoiner holds.

895
00:51:56,321 --> 00:51:56,861
But.

896
00:51:57,191 --> 00:52:01,741
To steel man it, El Salvador's in better shape than it's been in forever.

897
00:52:02,581 --> 00:52:06,451
The 99 percent of the people that live there are much happier as a result of

898
00:52:06,451 --> 00:52:10,791
this happening, and when choosing who it was they were going to throw in prison

899
00:52:10,791 --> 00:52:13,191
and treat in this awful dehumanizing way.

900
00:52:14,226 --> 00:52:18,186
All these people voluntarily labelled themselves with as many tattoos as

901
00:52:18,186 --> 00:52:22,836
possible to say I am a gang member, I am the one going around causing, you know,

902
00:52:23,076 --> 00:52:26,346
I'm the one raping and pillaging and doing all this stuff, so I'm saying you

903
00:52:26,356 --> 00:52:31,746
have about, what is a gang member, what is a normal human that doesn't want to

904
00:52:31,756 --> 00:52:35,376
hurt other people, where do you draw the line, I don't know, but we have about

905
00:52:35,376 --> 00:52:39,426
as clear line in the sand as possible with these people, they've labelled

906
00:52:39,426 --> 00:52:44,226
themselves as Nostr, Erik You know, as malicious, horrible people, and now you,

907
00:52:44,286 --> 00:52:47,606
they are effectively a sort of ragtag government anyway, and now you have a

908
00:52:47,606 --> 00:52:51,436
more civilized government come along and throw away the smaller government,

909
00:52:51,886 --> 00:52:55,036
you know, I'm not going to cry about it too much, and I'm also not going to,

910
00:52:55,386 --> 00:52:59,946
I'm not El Salvadoran, so I don't get to, you Be an armchair critic of it as

911
00:53:00,006 --> 00:53:01,876
sort of fundamental human rights abuse.

912
00:53:02,266 --> 00:53:04,826
I'm just going to say, look, it made life better for the people in El

913
00:53:04,826 --> 00:53:08,346
Salvador, and I don't think I have the right to comment on it beyond that.

914
00:53:08,776 --> 00:53:13,396
So when it comes to the spam attack in Bitcoin, I think you can so trivially

915
00:53:13,606 --> 00:53:15,056
figure out what this stuff is.

916
00:53:15,366 --> 00:53:20,596
Yes, there is no objective definition for spam versus You

917
00:53:20,596 --> 00:53:22,276
know, legitimate transaction.

918
00:53:22,416 --> 00:53:28,076
We can't ever draw a firm, concrete line, but all this stuff is so easy to spot.

919
00:53:28,276 --> 00:53:34,516
It all uses the same few mechanisms, and so you can just, you can simply update the

920
00:53:34,516 --> 00:53:36,966
data carrier size filter to include it.

921
00:53:37,201 --> 00:53:41,391
Uh, you know, the, what is it, the envelope they use between op if and op

922
00:53:41,441 --> 00:53:45,851
end if after an op false statement that invalidates the whole if condition anyway.

923
00:53:46,201 --> 00:53:49,591
You just, the stuff in there makes that subject to the data

924
00:53:49,591 --> 00:53:51,051
carrier size limit anyway.

925
00:53:51,591 --> 00:53:55,811
The, the, the, the external, you know, disadvantages of doing that

926
00:53:55,841 --> 00:53:59,111
seem extremely minimal, though admittedly I'm not the expert here.

927
00:53:59,590 --> 00:54:03,710
then, uh, you can, uh, you can turn off bare multisig.

928
00:54:04,005 --> 00:54:07,925
Because the defenses of that are zero, in my estimation.

929
00:54:07,945 --> 00:54:10,355
There are way better ways of doing multisig, and if you want

930
00:54:10,505 --> 00:54:13,715
stateless multisig on Bitcoin, which is what it's theoretically for.

931
00:54:14,445 --> 00:54:18,195
It's not on, it's not on every node user in the world to store a

932
00:54:18,195 --> 00:54:20,015
backup of your multisig solution.

933
00:54:20,025 --> 00:54:22,245
That's not of interest to me as a node user.

934
00:54:22,245 --> 00:54:24,125
It's not fair to burden me with that.

935
00:54:24,515 --> 00:54:28,345
And if there's a way for me to reject that, uh, with my mempool policy

936
00:54:28,345 --> 00:54:31,635
filters, even if I don't have to change Konsensus and it might still

937
00:54:31,635 --> 00:54:33,255
end up in blocks, that's reasonable.

938
00:54:33,625 --> 00:54:35,105
So you can update the filters.

939
00:54:35,115 --> 00:54:36,115
That's all we're saying.

940
00:54:36,475 --> 00:54:40,610
Then the argument moves to, okay, if you update the filters, You're not

941
00:54:40,610 --> 00:54:44,560
changing consensus, so this stuff can and will still just end up in blocks.

942
00:54:45,060 --> 00:54:48,720
Uh, you're playing, you know, what's ultimately the goal here.

943
00:54:48,950 --> 00:54:50,620
You're not going to effectively stop it.

944
00:54:50,630 --> 00:54:52,490
And I'm saying, I think we can, actually.

945
00:54:52,700 --> 00:54:56,130
I think if most of the network is saying, we consider this stuff undesirable,

946
00:54:56,300 --> 00:54:57,790
the conversation will have changed.

947
00:54:57,850 --> 00:55:00,230
We will have moved away from, what is spam?

948
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:04,410
To, this stuff is spam, minus why are you still including it?

949
00:55:04,745 --> 00:55:06,725
Don't make us fork the network again.

950
00:55:06,995 --> 00:55:08,075
I don't want to do that.

951
00:55:08,175 --> 00:55:09,575
You don't want us to do that.

952
00:55:09,735 --> 00:55:11,185
Just stop including the stuff.

953
00:55:11,195 --> 00:55:13,945
You're only making a couple of million sats extra per block,

954
00:55:13,995 --> 00:55:16,195
divided by everyone in your pool.

955
00:55:16,515 --> 00:55:19,655
It amounts to an incredibly low amount of money.

956
00:55:19,655 --> 00:55:21,615
It's obviously causing a lot of damage.

957
00:55:21,980 --> 00:55:26,850
Voluntarily, guys, just stop, and then you have this whole learning thing that we

958
00:55:26,850 --> 00:55:30,670
have to do once every few years where we realize nodes are the boss of the network,

959
00:55:30,720 --> 00:55:35,430
miners are the employees of the network, sitting here sort of passively saying,

960
00:55:35,430 --> 00:55:40,420
well, miners are going to include it, you know, they are not the boss of this stuff,

961
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:42,879
they fit within the rules that we need.

962
00:55:43,193 --> 00:55:45,793
Hold them to, and they need to do that.

963
00:55:46,403 --> 00:55:49,253
And miners ultimately degrade their own arbiter of whether what

964
00:55:49,253 --> 00:55:51,203
they're doing is worth money or not.

965
00:55:51,753 --> 00:55:56,513
And, uh, that comes in the form of, uh, the number of nodes on the network.

966
00:55:56,713 --> 00:56:00,803
If a hundred thousand nodes say, yeah, I consider that block valid, you're good.

967
00:56:01,133 --> 00:56:05,003
If there's a thousand nodes saying, I consider that block valid, Then you're

968
00:56:05,003 --> 00:56:08,473
in Ethereum land, then you're in Bcash land, and then you're in trouble.

969
00:56:08,833 --> 00:56:12,973
Like, you want that work you're doing to be validated by a large enough group

970
00:56:12,973 --> 00:56:14,583
of people that it's going to persist.

971
00:56:15,303 --> 00:56:20,213
So don't attack that group, don't make their life harder, don't disincentivize

972
00:56:20,213 --> 00:56:22,513
them from validating your work.

973
00:56:23,038 --> 00:56:26,098
Because you will lose as a miner ultimately if you do that.

974
00:56:26,558 --> 00:56:29,018
You can just say, oh, I'll let other people be ethical

975
00:56:29,018 --> 00:56:30,248
like that and I'll be fine.

976
00:56:30,258 --> 00:56:34,168
But I think if you, if we send a strong signal to the miners that we don't like

977
00:56:34,168 --> 00:56:38,388
this stuff, we don't want it there, with the further practical consideration of the

978
00:56:38,388 --> 00:56:42,548
fact that there's one pool that allows you a mechanism to reject it, which is ocean,

979
00:56:42,598 --> 00:56:46,638
and none of the others do, and the other pools are all dishonest and a joke, I

980
00:56:46,638 --> 00:56:52,087
think that's a very practical uh, scenario in which you can stop this stuff and you

981
00:56:52,087 --> 00:56:55,327
can have it end up in blocks every now and again, but I don't care because I'm going

982
00:56:55,327 --> 00:56:57,007
to say that's demonstrably a lot better.

983
00:56:57,227 --> 00:57:01,647
Yes, we didn't theoretically define spam versus genuine transactions.

984
00:57:01,657 --> 00:57:05,097
Yes, we didn't stop all of it, but we're 90 percent better and

985
00:57:05,097 --> 00:57:07,377
I'll take it and I get so annoyed.

986
00:57:07,637 --> 00:57:10,137
With everyone trying to say, well, if you can't do it perfectly,

987
00:57:10,217 --> 00:57:11,617
no point doing it at all.

988
00:57:11,717 --> 00:57:13,667
I'm like, that's, that's a fallacious argument.

989
00:57:13,667 --> 00:57:17,317
I'm going to make things better, and he who says it cannot be done

990
00:57:17,337 --> 00:57:21,097
should not interrupt he who is trying to do it, unless you want to

991
00:57:21,097 --> 00:57:24,087
admit that you just don't want me to do it because you're financially

992
00:57:24,087 --> 00:57:25,797
invested in all of these scams.

993
00:57:26,077 --> 00:57:28,007
And that's where I start to get really annoyed.

994
00:57:28,732 --> 00:57:32,142
I mean, the opposite is true, like, as many people as possible should try

995
00:57:32,162 --> 00:57:36,972
to do this to some extent, and like, show people that they don't have to

996
00:57:37,622 --> 00:57:42,382
follow whatever rules are set by the 95 percent of the other fucking pools.

997
00:57:42,635 --> 00:57:44,174
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998
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1001
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1002
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1003
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1022
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So, okay, I'm gonna do an analogy, a slightly updated version of it

1023
00:59:00,584 --> 00:59:02,744
from our conversation with Giacomo.

1024
00:59:03,174 --> 00:59:05,804
So, and you can see to which extent you agree with this.

1025
00:59:05,824 --> 00:59:12,359
So you have a, um An observatory with a bunch of astronomers employed at the

1026
00:59:12,359 --> 00:59:19,179
observatory, and you're observing the Andromeda Galaxy, and all the astronomers

1027
00:59:19,179 --> 00:59:23,149
are watching the stars in the Andromeda Galaxy, trying to figure out what they're

1028
00:59:23,379 --> 00:59:28,069
doing, and the patterns they move in, and what they consist of, and so on, and

1029
00:59:28,069 --> 00:59:33,744
all of a sudden, there's um, A bunch of charlatans and snake oil salesmen and

1030
00:59:33,744 --> 00:59:39,034
scammers who start to sell the stars in the Andromeda galaxy to gullible people

1031
00:59:39,034 --> 00:59:41,974
who think they can own a star in a galaxy.

1032
00:59:42,504 --> 00:59:48,084
Yeah, and the astronomers have to spend their time, uh, filling

1033
00:59:48,084 --> 00:59:53,074
out this, uh, making invoices and filling out forms for these people

1034
00:59:53,074 --> 00:59:55,074
trying to buy stars from scammers.

1035
00:59:55,504 --> 00:59:58,334
Is that a good analogy for what's going on here?

1036
00:59:58,609 --> 01:00:02,369
It's a beautiful analogy and it's, it's actually been used a long time.

1037
01:00:02,379 --> 01:00:04,749
I don't know when you had that conversation with Giacomo, but that

1038
01:00:04,749 --> 01:00:09,089
was one of the first analogies I ever heard for NFTs or just the concept of,

1039
01:00:09,339 --> 01:00:13,689
you know, trying to explain what it's, it comes down to intellectual property.

1040
01:00:13,959 --> 01:00:15,919
How do you enforce intellectual property?

1041
01:00:15,919 --> 01:00:18,159
It's, it's generally enforced on the social layer.

1042
01:00:18,409 --> 01:00:23,464
Like it's, if, if I come up with a term, like if I'm, If I'm Drake or

1043
01:00:23,464 --> 01:00:26,544
Rihanna or something and I come up with some new slang term on Instagram

1044
01:00:26,544 --> 01:00:29,664
and everyone starts using it, a lot of people are gonna be like, oh yeah,

1045
01:00:29,664 --> 01:00:31,384
that was him that came up with it,

1046
01:00:31,899 --> 01:00:35,649
Yeah, then you'll be under that umbrella, ella, ella, ella, yeah,

1047
01:00:35,804 --> 01:00:39,684
well, like, you have, I mean, that's, you can establish things that way, you

1048
01:00:39,684 --> 01:00:43,954
can be famously influential, you can monetize it too if you like, because

1049
01:00:43,954 --> 01:00:47,269
if you come up with that word and everyone starts using it, Who cares,

1050
01:00:47,269 --> 01:00:51,939
it's decentralized, uh, language is decentralized, but if Disney make a movie

1051
01:00:51,939 --> 01:00:54,979
and they say the word in it, then you can go and sue Disney, and you can make

1052
01:00:54,979 --> 01:00:59,556
a bunch of money, and you can prove that you invented the word, um, but the proof

1053
01:00:59,556 --> 01:01:05,549
comes from demonstrating, uh, you know, that you were the first to do it, and

1054
01:01:05,619 --> 01:01:10,659
there is a use to having history in the blockchain to some extent there, but this

1055
01:01:10,659 --> 01:01:12,569
is about as far as you can get with it.

1056
01:01:12,649 --> 01:01:16,889
Uh, with, uh, Steele Manning, the whole in, you know, demonstrating

1057
01:01:16,919 --> 01:01:19,569
the creation of intellectual property inside a blockchain.

1058
01:01:19,969 --> 01:01:20,659
That's it.

1059
01:01:21,049 --> 01:01:25,669
Uh, beyond that, it's, it's not, there, there are so many other ways of doing

1060
01:01:25,669 --> 01:01:29,309
that, that are more efficient because you could also just email it to yourself.

1061
01:01:29,784 --> 01:01:30,554
And that's it.

1062
01:01:30,634 --> 01:01:34,134
That's going to persist, and you can say, Hey, that word, I emailed it to

1063
01:01:34,134 --> 01:01:38,404
myself, here, it's on Google servers, I'm gonna take a screenshot of it, and you

1064
01:01:38,404 --> 01:01:42,214
show that to the judge in your lawsuit with Disney, and he says, Yeah, you

1065
01:01:42,214 --> 01:01:44,154
started this whole thing, fair enough.

1066
01:01:44,224 --> 01:01:47,074
Disney, you owe the guy 800 million dollars now, or whatever

1067
01:01:47,074 --> 01:01:48,984
ridiculous compensation they go for.

1068
01:01:49,494 --> 01:01:53,124
Like, the whole point, intellectual property is only really of interest.

1069
01:01:53,584 --> 01:01:56,214
To the person selling it and the person buying it.

1070
01:01:56,224 --> 01:01:59,964
It's not a thing that needs to be a matter of public record in most cases.

1071
01:02:00,084 --> 01:02:04,384
So when you're buying an NFT, the guy who made it can just email it to you.

1072
01:02:04,714 --> 01:02:10,154
And the point is, if they do that, then, and it gets violated, you're

1073
01:02:10,154 --> 01:02:14,284
in exactly the same world as if it was a blockchain established.

1074
01:02:14,509 --> 01:02:17,779
Uh, you know, change of ownership, because like everyone keeps pointing

1075
01:02:17,779 --> 01:02:20,439
out, I can right click on your JPEG and I can download it and there's

1076
01:02:20,439 --> 01:02:21,619
nothing you can do about that.

1077
01:02:21,879 --> 01:02:23,939
That's true of any intellectual property, right?

1078
01:02:23,959 --> 01:02:24,319
I can

1079
01:02:24,469 --> 01:02:25,929
yeah, it's true of all data,

1080
01:02:26,109 --> 01:02:30,189
yeah, of course it is, but it is enforceable in certain contexts,

1081
01:02:30,189 --> 01:02:33,724
like every time a radio station plays your song, They didn't download

1082
01:02:33,724 --> 01:02:35,064
it off Pirate Bay or whatever.

1083
01:02:35,074 --> 01:02:38,414
They actually are going to give you the royalties because they're, they're,

1084
01:02:38,444 --> 01:02:41,644
they're a target they can actually do like an internet pirate station.

1085
01:02:41,644 --> 01:02:42,744
Doesn't have to worry about it.

1086
01:02:43,094 --> 01:02:47,244
You know, a licensed FM radio station does have to worry about it because

1087
01:02:47,254 --> 01:02:48,474
they have a target on their back.

1088
01:02:48,474 --> 01:02:48,784
There are.

1089
01:02:48,844 --> 01:02:53,704
They're an incorporated big entity that is realistic for you to go after if

1090
01:02:53,704 --> 01:02:55,654
you are the, uh, the owner of the ip.

1091
01:02:56,044 --> 01:03:01,414
But if you're the owner of the ip, who cares whether you established the IP in a

1092
01:03:01,419 --> 01:03:05,614
public blockchain or whether you emailed the song to yourself three years ago.

1093
01:03:05,854 --> 01:03:09,454
They're exactly the same from the perspective of we are going to court,

1094
01:03:09,634 --> 01:03:10,954
we're going to figure this out.

1095
01:03:10,954 --> 01:03:14,044
I'm going to get money out of you for violating my intellectual property.

1096
01:03:14,374 --> 01:03:15,364
There's no difference.

1097
01:03:15,564 --> 01:03:19,144
So why do you want the whole world to know about the establishment of this

1098
01:03:19,144 --> 01:03:24,954
thing versus, you know, it's, there are differences, it's not identical, but

1099
01:03:25,014 --> 01:03:30,174
for the most part, the fact that there's no real, the fact that there's a very

1100
01:03:30,174 --> 01:03:34,374
limited use case for making the whole thing a public change of ownership like

1101
01:03:34,374 --> 01:03:40,074
this, that's, ignores the fact that the interpretation is always happening

1102
01:03:40,084 --> 01:03:44,974
externally, and external interpretation is fraught with centralization.

1103
01:03:45,459 --> 01:03:49,939
And misunderstanding and, you know, you know, a million different things

1104
01:03:49,939 --> 01:03:53,649
that can all go wrong to the point where you're like, look, so you sold

1105
01:03:53,649 --> 01:03:57,509
me this NFT on this blockchain and you sold me it, you sold the same one to

1106
01:03:57,509 --> 01:03:59,129
someone else on another blockchain.

1107
01:03:59,189 --> 01:04:02,849
What's a judge going to do with that if, you know, a big incorporated entity

1108
01:04:02,849 --> 01:04:04,909
comes and violates the IP of your NFT?

1109
01:04:05,259 --> 01:04:06,129
What's he going to say?

1110
01:04:06,129 --> 01:04:10,284
Oh, Well, I checked the timestamp on this block, but it was broadcast

1111
01:04:10,304 --> 01:04:13,524
to the network three minutes before the block was found, actually.

1112
01:04:13,774 --> 01:04:17,824
Uh, so it was found earlier in Bitcoin's blockchain, but it was seen

1113
01:04:17,824 --> 01:04:22,024
by the Ethereum network before, uh, it was seen by the Bitcoin network.

1114
01:04:22,084 --> 01:04:26,979
Um, like, I find it so funny that anyone would ever, like I think that's

1115
01:04:26,979 --> 01:04:31,359
a realistic scenario, like it's, no one cares, ultimately, it's not, it's never

1116
01:04:31,359 --> 01:04:35,491
gonna happen, everyone is, everyone would just right click and violate the, the IP

1117
01:04:35,491 --> 01:04:39,701
of your NFT, if it was even worth doing it, but in reality it's just a bunch of

1118
01:04:39,751 --> 01:04:45,141
pixelated crap masquerading as art, and it's wash trading, money laundering, you

1119
01:04:45,141 --> 01:04:47,641
know, just scams, pumps and dumps, and.

1120
01:04:48,526 --> 01:04:52,046
It's, it just couldn't be more of an insult to the injury Bitcoin is

1121
01:04:52,046 --> 01:04:55,766
undergoing at the moment for this stuff to be claiming itself to be art.

1122
01:04:56,136 --> 01:05:00,416
It's just, how much more, like, does it have to write on its forehead, I am an

1123
01:05:00,416 --> 01:05:05,996
attack, I am not doing anything good for anyone, anywhere, and like, for Bitcoin

1124
01:05:06,246 --> 01:05:11,451
is just to go Maybe I should take this stuff at face value and stop, you know,

1125
01:05:11,541 --> 01:05:16,711
masturbating and trying to sort of come up with some sort of call to inaction,

1126
01:05:17,031 --> 01:05:18,721
which is what everyone is engaged in.

1127
01:05:18,721 --> 01:05:20,621
Yeah, there's no reason to do anything about this.

1128
01:05:20,631 --> 01:05:21,431
It's all fine.

1129
01:05:22,005 --> 01:05:25,745
like, this is why I like the Andromeda Galaxy analogy so much, because,

1130
01:05:26,005 --> 01:05:29,965
like, it's not only the JPEGs, but every other set of arbitrary data,

1131
01:05:30,005 --> 01:05:34,185
these BRC20 tokens, or whatever they call them, like, it goes for all of

1132
01:05:34,185 --> 01:05:37,420
them, because the Satoshi, is special.

1133
01:05:37,500 --> 01:05:38,930
It's more than just data.

1134
01:05:39,010 --> 01:05:40,040
A Satoshi doesn't exist.

1135
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:42,390
It's just the UTXO sets and so on.

1136
01:05:42,630 --> 01:05:44,980
But a Satoshi exists in another sense.

1137
01:05:45,770 --> 01:05:50,640
A Satoshi is a very, very precious and special thing.

1138
01:05:51,350 --> 01:05:54,455
And anything else attached to the time chain.

1139
01:05:54,495 --> 01:05:55,075
It's not.

1140
01:05:55,105 --> 01:05:56,015
It simply isn't.

1141
01:05:56,035 --> 01:06:01,425
It's just this, like, uh, something that everyone can see and, you know,

1142
01:06:01,995 --> 01:06:05,475
everyone can see the star in the Andromeda galaxy and it doesn't matter

1143
01:06:05,475 --> 01:06:10,045
what kind of paper you, you, you give one another for the owning rights to it.

1144
01:06:10,065 --> 01:06:11,245
It's still not going to change it.

1145
01:06:11,255 --> 01:06:15,365
It's still attached to the transaction and not the Satoshi, right?

1146
01:06:15,395 --> 01:06:18,226
It's, it's not, It's not ownable.

1147
01:06:18,936 --> 01:06:21,286
Like, and that's what people need to figure out.

1148
01:06:21,546 --> 01:06:27,956
And a Satoshi is only ownable because of this delicate game theoretical

1149
01:06:28,746 --> 01:06:33,176
construction that is Bitcoin, that is this game theoretical agreement between people.

1150
01:06:33,176 --> 01:06:36,646
That's the only reason that the Satoshi has value in the first place.

1151
01:06:37,326 --> 01:06:41,726
And when you clog that with other crap, you're just making that Satoshi

1152
01:06:41,746 --> 01:06:44,666
that you just thought you bought the fucking monkey picture with.

1153
01:06:44,911 --> 01:06:47,611
A little less valuable in the long run.

1154
01:06:48,411 --> 01:06:52,651
Yeah, it's, it's complete corruption, and it wasn't ever a

1155
01:06:52,651 --> 01:06:54,261
part of any of the discussions.

1156
01:06:54,371 --> 01:06:56,841
Like, if we're honest with ourselves, it just wasn't.

1157
01:06:57,461 --> 01:07:01,091
The whole justification and rationale for, you know, 21

1158
01:07:01,101 --> 01:07:02,561
million bitcoins is important.

1159
01:07:03,021 --> 01:07:05,731
Limiting block space is equally important.

1160
01:07:06,091 --> 01:07:10,251
And when Gavin Andreessen and those guys came around and said, you know, make it

1161
01:07:10,251 --> 01:07:14,621
bigger, we said, that's just as degrading as saying let's go above 21 million,

1162
01:07:14,681 --> 01:07:18,721
like you're really, you're degrading a fundamental constant in the whole network,

1163
01:07:18,721 --> 01:07:23,271
and who cares if Satoshi arrived at it by accident or whatever, this, like Adam

1164
01:07:23,281 --> 01:07:27,491
Back says, it's genuinely surprising that all these constants, if you move them in

1165
01:07:27,491 --> 01:07:29,171
either direction, you degrade everything,

1166
01:07:29,491 --> 01:07:33,331
Is it like saying if we make pi bigger, we can make circles bigger?

1167
01:07:34,261 --> 01:07:38,521
well, it's not, it's not quite exactly like that, it's just when you trade off

1168
01:07:38,521 --> 01:07:43,106
the, What, what would happen if you made things smaller or bigger or, you know,

1169
01:07:43,106 --> 01:07:47,446
went smaller or bigger than 21 million, you know, you degrade things vastly,

1170
01:07:47,456 --> 01:07:51,316
even if you help something else, you make something more important worse, right?

1171
01:07:51,796 --> 01:07:56,236
So, like, block space being a fundamentally scarce resource, the

1172
01:07:56,236 --> 01:08:01,476
implication with that, that I thought that was basically, You know, uh, wasn't,

1173
01:08:01,856 --> 01:08:06,056
that went without saying because we barely discussed it back in the block size wars

1174
01:08:06,086 --> 01:08:11,356
was, and all this block space is going to be used by genuine financial activity.

1175
01:08:11,356 --> 01:08:14,116
It's not going to turn into a generic database.

1176
01:08:14,676 --> 01:08:15,906
That was the assumption.

1177
01:08:15,916 --> 01:08:20,176
No one, that was never part of the discussion that, oh, minor income that's

1178
01:08:20,176 --> 01:08:24,006
sort of, you know, we need to guarantee minor income in the future beyond subsidy.

1179
01:08:24,351 --> 01:08:27,021
How are they going to guarantee transaction fee revenue with

1180
01:08:27,031 --> 01:08:28,221
infinitely large blocks?

1181
01:08:28,251 --> 01:08:32,621
Why would anyone pay to store data in a database that's infinitely large?

1182
01:08:32,961 --> 01:08:34,941
There's no re, there's, the motivation isn't there.

1183
01:08:34,941 --> 01:08:38,181
There needs to be a competition for space in the block space, which means

1184
01:08:38,181 --> 01:08:39,711
you need to artificially limit it.

1185
01:08:40,151 --> 01:08:44,011
Reasonable, but opening it up for other use cases to help ensure that

1186
01:08:44,011 --> 01:08:45,591
was not a part of that discussion.

1187
01:08:45,711 --> 01:08:49,511
And it doesn't, it's shoehorning itself in now as a rationale

1188
01:08:49,531 --> 01:08:51,651
for inaction and apathy.

1189
01:08:52,106 --> 01:08:55,856
And people say, look, I don't want to be in core of being as they always

1190
01:08:55,856 --> 01:08:59,816
are, which is, we don't want to make political decisions of this nature.

1191
01:09:00,026 --> 01:09:05,126
So that, that creates status quo bias, which is obviously fallacious, but

1192
01:09:05,876 --> 01:09:09,196
suddenly you have the blockchain being used for an unintended purposes that

1193
01:09:09,256 --> 01:09:12,096
there's a competition about the type of.

1194
01:09:12,356 --> 01:09:13,856
Data that goes into it.

1195
01:09:14,126 --> 01:09:15,206
Not, not.

1196
01:09:15,211 --> 01:09:16,316
It's not a competition.

1197
01:09:16,316 --> 01:09:19,436
Like, oh, this guy makes a bad transaction and this guy makes a good

1198
01:09:19,436 --> 01:09:23,216
transaction and will prioritize good and bad, and we'll exercise moral

1199
01:09:23,486 --> 01:09:26,346
judgment about economic activity.

1200
01:09:26,351 --> 01:09:28,686
That's not what we're doing and that's what people are

1201
01:09:28,686 --> 01:09:30,366
characterizing it as we're saying.

1202
01:09:30,696 --> 01:09:33,696
This type of data does not belong in the blockchain.

1203
01:09:33,696 --> 01:09:36,636
It's not a generic data storage platform.

1204
01:09:36,636 --> 01:09:37,176
It's not.

1205
01:09:37,681 --> 01:09:39,001
That's not what it's for.

1206
01:09:39,321 --> 01:09:43,341
It's for financial activity, and financial activity does look different.

1207
01:09:43,611 --> 01:09:46,801
It is definable in a practical sense.

1208
01:09:46,981 --> 01:09:52,031
Yes, there is arbitrary data that can be genuine financial activity, and

1209
01:09:52,031 --> 01:09:55,121
there is genuine financial activity that can look like arbitrary data.

1210
01:09:55,131 --> 01:09:56,361
I understand that.

1211
01:09:56,541 --> 01:09:59,181
You can't make an objective line between the two.

1212
01:09:59,471 --> 01:10:05,396
But you can come to a fairly consistent set of subjective, you know, you can

1213
01:10:05,396 --> 01:10:11,046
have a shelling point of subjective consensus where you can say as a network,

1214
01:10:11,136 --> 01:10:12,846
let's stop gaslighting ourselves.

1215
01:10:12,846 --> 01:10:14,666
We know what the attackers are doing.

1216
01:10:14,666 --> 01:10:16,526
We know what envelope they use in here.

1217
01:10:16,936 --> 01:10:19,126
We don't need to play too many games of whack a mole.

1218
01:10:19,351 --> 01:10:22,941
We can just say, right, you are a bunch of spammers, you're selling

1219
01:10:23,051 --> 01:10:28,541
absolute nonsense, you have raised millions of dollars, you've done so

1220
01:10:28,541 --> 01:10:32,651
much marketing, you've got enough idiots thinking that they can get involved in

1221
01:10:32,651 --> 01:10:34,191
this and it's the next pump and dump.

1222
01:10:34,791 --> 01:10:38,231
All we need to do is hit that over the head and you have to start again.

1223
01:10:38,686 --> 01:10:43,256
You need to actively advocate all the same things again to a bunch of VCs

1224
01:10:43,296 --> 01:10:48,296
that know what you're advocating for is to build and flesh out a system

1225
01:10:48,936 --> 01:10:52,756
on a network that's openly hostile to what it is you're trying to do when

1226
01:10:52,756 --> 01:10:54,116
there's all these other alternatives.

1227
01:10:54,606 --> 01:10:58,176
So what we're really saying to you is, go and do your thing on another

1228
01:10:58,426 --> 01:11:02,166
blockchain or use a private database for it, which is actually designed for

1229
01:11:02,166 --> 01:11:07,651
it, because ordinal interpretation and ordinal theory, is a private thing that's

1230
01:11:07,651 --> 01:11:09,871
established in a centralized fashion.

1231
01:11:10,131 --> 01:11:12,431
Just have them maintain the database.

1232
01:11:12,521 --> 01:11:14,521
Don't use Bitcoin's blockchain for it.

1233
01:11:14,641 --> 01:11:18,401
If you're really serious about this thing, go and do it that way.

1234
01:11:18,431 --> 01:11:21,331
Don't keep trying to do it on a network that's going to keep bashing

1235
01:11:21,331 --> 01:11:24,671
you over the head and telling you to go away because they can do that

1236
01:11:24,671 --> 01:11:26,761
once or twice with mempool filters.

1237
01:11:27,066 --> 01:11:30,616
Which doesn't require a long, years long process of, you know,

1238
01:11:30,686 --> 01:11:32,236
soft forking this stuff out.

1239
01:11:32,516 --> 01:11:34,996
You can just say, eh, we don't like this stuff, we're going to make it

1240
01:11:35,006 --> 01:11:36,676
difficult to relay around the network.

1241
01:11:36,876 --> 01:11:41,916
95 percent of networks, uh, nodes do it, because all those nodes, you know, use

1242
01:11:41,916 --> 01:11:45,956
core default policies, and core actually wakes up and, you know, starts updating

1243
01:11:45,956 --> 01:11:47,856
the mempool, you know, the spam filters.

1244
01:11:48,526 --> 01:11:51,176
And then at that point, you have a few miners that want to make a

1245
01:11:51,176 --> 01:11:55,786
few extra bucks who You know, uh, doing something which has been now

1246
01:11:55,866 --> 01:12:00,196
understood as an attack on the network and other miners stopped doing it.

1247
01:12:00,646 --> 01:12:04,466
And then, as far as I'm concerned, the spammers are going to, they're going

1248
01:12:04,466 --> 01:12:07,716
to melt, because what do you do in that situation, how are you going to

1249
01:12:07,726 --> 01:12:10,226
raise the money, how are you going to do the marketing, how are you going

1250
01:12:10,246 --> 01:12:14,716
to get momentum, uh, doing this stuff on a network that keeps telling you

1251
01:12:14,716 --> 01:12:18,806
to go away, when there's all these other, more efficient options, why keep

1252
01:12:18,806 --> 01:12:23,486
up the pretense of being immutable, because your, your ordinal theory has

1253
01:12:23,526 --> 01:12:27,411
some, element of encoding data on the blockchain when in reality you can

1254
01:12:27,411 --> 01:12:30,731
change the rules in 10 minutes and then no one has their ordinal anymore.

1255
01:12:31,041 --> 01:12:33,141
Like, it's it's not it's not hard.

1256
01:12:33,661 --> 01:12:37,281
The devil's advocate, controversial, somewhat controversial answer

1257
01:12:37,281 --> 01:12:41,391
to all that, why, why, why, is because it is an attack on Bitcoin.

1258
01:12:41,771 --> 01:12:43,821
And that was the purpose to begin with.

1259
01:12:44,571 --> 01:12:47,971
But what surprises me about that then is how many people are falling for it.

1260
01:12:48,371 --> 01:12:51,121
If you treat this thing as an attack you can solve it in 5 minutes.

1261
01:12:51,521 --> 01:12:55,241
But if you, if you refuse to acknowledge it as an attack, if you're going

1262
01:12:55,241 --> 01:12:58,071
to gaslight everyone and pretend that we just got to put up with

1263
01:12:58,071 --> 01:13:01,011
this and oh, they'll be priced out eventually even though the opposite's

1264
01:13:01,071 --> 01:13:03,181
happening, where do you go from there?

1265
01:13:03,271 --> 01:13:03,841
I don't know.

1266
01:13:04,021 --> 01:13:08,131
Like, it just requires education and talking endlessly to people.

1267
01:13:08,321 --> 01:13:10,931
Like, I did a podcast with Preston Piech and

1268
01:13:10,961 --> 01:13:11,701
Yeah, I heard it.

1269
01:13:11,801 --> 01:13:12,521
I listened to it.

1270
01:13:12,906 --> 01:13:17,416
Yeah, a lot of people, like, my thinking on this has evolved a lot since that

1271
01:13:17,416 --> 01:13:20,856
podcast, and a lot of people have messaged me like, yeah, I wasn't really

1272
01:13:20,856 --> 01:13:24,586
sure before, and I definitely agree with some of the perspectives you had on

1273
01:13:24,586 --> 01:13:29,116
there, and, uh, I think, you know, this apathetic approach that we've been taking

1274
01:13:29,116 --> 01:13:31,681
isn't actually a The smart move here.

1275
01:13:32,041 --> 01:13:34,941
And I think, I think the conversation is moving.

1276
01:13:35,231 --> 01:13:38,111
Things don't have consensus in Bitcoin automatically.

1277
01:13:38,151 --> 01:13:39,881
I was a big blocker at one point.

1278
01:13:39,891 --> 01:13:40,951
Most of us were.

1279
01:13:41,161 --> 01:13:44,451
Most of us looked at what Gavin was saying and thought, yeah, how are we going to

1280
01:13:44,451 --> 01:13:46,271
scale this thing with one megabyte blocks?

1281
01:13:46,761 --> 01:13:50,331
And eventually the truth won out and we realized this isn't a good idea.

1282
01:13:50,331 --> 01:13:53,351
And the people that stuck to their guns ended up all writing

1283
01:13:53,351 --> 01:13:54,401
themselves out of the script.

1284
01:13:54,611 --> 01:13:58,431
Roger Ver and Mike Hearn and Gavin and all these people, they just

1285
01:13:58,461 --> 01:14:02,511
ended up They stuck to their guns and they got excommunicated through

1286
01:14:02,511 --> 01:14:05,871
their own frustration or whatever, or just through sheer embarrassment.

1287
01:14:06,201 --> 01:14:07,461
The same thing can happen here.

1288
01:14:07,641 --> 01:14:10,281
Ultimately, as you pointed out, who are we kicking out?

1289
01:14:10,491 --> 01:14:12,111
F heads, BS vs.

1290
01:14:12,531 --> 01:14:16,611
Openly hostile attackers that describe what they're doing as deliberately

1291
01:14:16,611 --> 01:14:18,831
harm hurtful to the Bitcoin blockchain.

1292
01:14:18,831 --> 01:14:19,931
They're not, they're not.

1293
01:14:21,021 --> 01:14:22,431
They're not hiding this stuff.

1294
01:14:22,441 --> 01:14:25,341
They're like, I am going to store my JPEGs on your node and there's

1295
01:14:25,371 --> 01:14:26,651
nothing you can do about it.

1296
01:14:26,941 --> 01:14:29,861
This is, this is like a hostile language.

1297
01:14:29,871 --> 01:14:33,091
They're deliberately violating the consent of node users.

1298
01:14:33,121 --> 01:14:35,971
And I'm sorry, I'm not going to sit there and just be like, Oh,

1299
01:14:35,971 --> 01:14:37,671
what is a valid transaction anyway?

1300
01:14:37,681 --> 01:14:38,831
That is just so.

1301
01:14:39,686 --> 01:14:41,366
Uh, that's so naive.

1302
01:14:42,204 --> 01:14:45,594
Yeah, they're actively saying we broke Bitcoin and stuff like that.

1303
01:14:45,869 --> 01:14:50,479
Yeah, like, some of this is like to create, you know, buzz and to annoy

1304
01:14:50,509 --> 01:14:54,489
people and to market, you know, it's called outrage marketing, but others

1305
01:14:54,509 --> 01:14:57,979
of it, like, there's Mike in Space tweeted saying like, hey, let's,

1306
01:14:57,989 --> 01:14:59,579
what's the cleverest way I can do this?

1307
01:14:59,599 --> 01:15:02,349
Inscriptions are more efficient than bare multisixpam.

1308
01:15:02,819 --> 01:15:07,779
What if I bloat the UTXO permanently, the UTXO set permanently, with multisixpam,

1309
01:15:08,149 --> 01:15:12,549
this stuff still defaults to on for the, you know, for most Bitcoin nodes.

1310
01:15:12,779 --> 01:15:14,709
Notts doesn't, but Core does.

1311
01:15:15,289 --> 01:15:18,339
So, you know, and he's sitting there sort of calculating it, going,

1312
01:15:18,339 --> 01:15:20,009
how can I make life difficult?

1313
01:15:20,019 --> 01:15:21,939
How can I create the biggest bang here?

1314
01:15:21,949 --> 01:15:24,039
How can I annoy people as much as possible?

1315
01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:26,159
And this is so harmful, right?

1316
01:15:26,199 --> 01:15:28,999
Like, no one has a problem with Gmail.

1317
01:15:29,454 --> 01:15:32,474
Getting rid of a Nigerian Prince, you know, email scam.

1318
01:15:32,774 --> 01:15:36,314
And that's one person that's inconvenienced you, right?

1319
01:15:36,574 --> 01:15:39,554
When someone stores a bunch of bare multisig spam on your node, that's

1320
01:15:39,704 --> 01:15:43,294
every single node for the rest of time has to store this crap.

1321
01:15:43,684 --> 01:15:46,644
The, the, the, it's exponentially more harmful.

1322
01:15:47,144 --> 01:15:51,144
And no one minds spam filtration on a, in a centralized, you

1323
01:15:51,144 --> 01:15:52,664
know, person to person basis.

1324
01:15:52,664 --> 01:15:57,084
But when it comes to Bitcoin network, the need to filter spam and be

1325
01:15:57,204 --> 01:16:00,694
rigid about what ends up in the blockchain is so much more important.

1326
01:16:00,964 --> 01:16:02,134
It cannot be neglected.

1327
01:16:02,194 --> 01:16:02,844
No way.

1328
01:16:03,661 --> 01:16:05,001
I have strong opinions here, guys.

1329
01:16:05,151 --> 01:16:10,901
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but we're trying to do our part here in calling a spade a spade.

1330
01:16:13,351 --> 01:16:15,581
And trying to explain this to people.

1331
01:16:15,581 --> 01:16:21,231
I know a lot of these episodes have been slightly more on the technical side,

1332
01:16:21,231 --> 01:16:26,201
but I think we've been able to explain, straighten out the question marker.

1333
01:16:26,501 --> 01:16:27,051
or two.

1334
01:16:27,921 --> 01:16:31,241
Luke, do you have anything on your mind for, for mechanic, Mr.

1335
01:16:31,241 --> 01:16:31,881
Mechanic here?

1336
01:16:32,108 --> 01:16:35,708
Well, the first thing I'll say is that we are taking a stand.

1337
01:16:35,708 --> 01:16:39,118
I think anyone listening to this show should understand that Knut and I,

1338
01:16:39,118 --> 01:16:40,968
we've talked about this ad infinitum.

1339
01:16:41,198 --> 01:16:43,018
We are taking a stand on this thing.

1340
01:16:43,018 --> 01:16:45,108
This is, this is not negotiable.

1341
01:16:45,108 --> 01:16:51,883
We, we really do side with Ocean and against ordinals and all of this because

1342
01:16:52,073 --> 01:16:57,283
it's obvious it's clear and it really is a moral issue if you're on the side

1343
01:16:57,283 --> 01:17:02,143
of ordinals you are acting immorally and you are against bitcoin and against

1344
01:17:02,143 --> 01:17:07,648
freedom and this show is called you The Freedom Footprint show, and we're

1345
01:17:07,648 --> 01:17:11,088
doing something a little bit diff well, not different, we're this isn't going

1346
01:17:11,088 --> 01:17:13,518
to be different in the future, but this is the first time we're actually

1347
01:17:13,518 --> 01:17:15,668
intentionally asking this question.

1348
01:17:15,748 --> 01:17:20,988
The Freedom Footprint concept is the idea that you as an individual can do things

1349
01:17:20,988 --> 01:17:25,878
that expand the amount of freedom that you put out into the world, and you expand the

1350
01:17:26,278 --> 01:17:27,338
Freedom Dioxide.

1351
01:17:27,768 --> 01:17:29,728
The amount of Freedom Dioxide, yeah.

1352
01:17:30,518 --> 01:17:31,753
How dare you?

1353
01:17:32,953 --> 01:17:35,343
That was a Greta Thunberg gif, I need to

1354
01:17:35,907 --> 01:17:36,407
Perfect.

1355
01:17:36,437 --> 01:17:36,857
Perfect.

1356
01:17:36,857 --> 01:17:37,907
Well, exactly.

1357
01:17:37,907 --> 01:17:39,487
And so that's kind of the point here.

1358
01:17:39,487 --> 01:17:43,337
And so now I think we've, we, I don't know why we didn't realize this in the

1359
01:17:43,337 --> 01:17:46,347
future, but the question we should have been asking this entire time to every

1360
01:17:46,347 --> 01:17:51,427
guest is, is what I'm going to ask you just now, mechanic, what are you

1361
01:17:51,427 --> 01:17:53,837
doing to expand your Freedom Footprint?

1362
01:17:54,017 --> 01:17:58,162
And I know the answer is obvious based on everything we've said, but Please, Knut,

1363
01:17:58,162 --> 01:18:01,172
just humor us and answer that question.

1364
01:18:01,457 --> 01:18:06,187
In the short term, working at Ocean means that miners have more of a

1365
01:18:06,187 --> 01:18:07,987
say what goes in the blockchain.

1366
01:18:08,027 --> 01:18:09,777
Because we have multiple templates.

1367
01:18:10,157 --> 01:18:12,497
We still offer the spam template.

1368
01:18:12,762 --> 01:18:20,022
Um, I can sort of divulge that basically no one is using it, which is beautiful,

1369
01:18:20,052 --> 01:18:24,132
because it squashed all this fud around censorship, which is obviously nonsense

1370
01:18:24,132 --> 01:18:27,972
anyway, but I said, alright, here's the thing you all apparently want, and no

1371
01:18:27,972 --> 01:18:29,542
one used it, so that was a lot of fun.

1372
01:18:29,970 --> 01:18:33,570
so we're basically saying if you care about what goes in the blockchain, miners

1373
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:39,260
tend to decide to forego the theoretical extra spam revenue and actually do

1374
01:18:39,260 --> 01:18:41,210
something that isn't actively as harmful.

1375
01:18:41,790 --> 01:18:47,060
That's, that's definitely, that, that allows for a more.

1376
01:18:47,410 --> 01:18:52,790
Reflective and free open market for block space amongst the people that

1377
01:18:52,830 --> 01:18:54,850
are using it for its intended purposes.

1378
01:18:55,370 --> 01:18:58,620
So, I like the chess club and checkers club analogy, right?

1379
01:18:58,630 --> 01:19:01,800
You don't, you make the chess club and people show up with a basketball

1380
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:04,280
or whatever and start making it unusable for the chess players.

1381
01:19:04,570 --> 01:19:08,040
That's not freedom, because you're not free to play chess anymore.

1382
01:19:08,060 --> 01:19:11,620
Like, freedom is the freedom to play a game in which the

1383
01:19:11,620 --> 01:19:12,900
rules will not be changed.

1384
01:19:13,300 --> 01:19:17,800
Freedom is not Anyone can change the rules all the time because that's

1385
01:19:18,100 --> 01:19:22,370
fiat, and that's, that is how you enslave people, is you put them on

1386
01:19:22,370 --> 01:19:25,730
a treadmill, you work them towards a goal, and then you move the goalposts.

1387
01:19:26,010 --> 01:19:28,960
That's not freedom, that's slavery every time, because

1388
01:19:28,960 --> 01:19:30,130
you can't work to everything.

1389
01:19:30,140 --> 01:19:33,780
You need to create a game with rules, where the rules cannot be

1390
01:19:33,780 --> 01:19:35,480
changed, and that's liberating.

1391
01:19:35,850 --> 01:19:39,630
You create a confine and you say, this confine will never change.

1392
01:19:39,750 --> 01:19:42,240
That's why the 21 million is so important, right?

1393
01:19:42,830 --> 01:19:46,050
Because if you change that 21 million number, that's freedom!

1394
01:19:46,060 --> 01:19:47,990
Someone had the freedom to change that number, right?

1395
01:19:47,990 --> 01:19:50,850
But it really just undermined everyone working towards their

1396
01:19:50,850 --> 01:19:52,130
own individual sovereignty,

1397
01:19:52,570 --> 01:19:56,300
Yeah, we would have to print new t shirts, it wouldn't work at all for us.

1398
01:19:56,365 --> 01:19:58,965
Yeah, tattoos would have to be removed at this point.

1399
01:19:58,975 --> 01:20:02,545
So, yeah, so that's, that's short term what I'm working towards.

1400
01:20:02,595 --> 01:20:07,085
Long term, we're working towards miners having the freedom to mine in a pooled

1401
01:20:07,135 --> 01:20:11,495
context, which means they solve their cash flow issues that come with solo mining.

1402
01:20:12,525 --> 01:20:16,975
Without having to have templates imposed on them by pools who are saying,

1403
01:20:17,285 --> 01:20:18,925
yes, we'll let you mine in a pool.

1404
01:20:18,945 --> 01:20:21,835
Yes, we'll let you solve your cash flow issue, but your

1405
01:20:21,835 --> 01:20:23,535
blocks must look like this.

1406
01:20:23,615 --> 01:20:24,765
You are just a hasher.

1407
01:20:24,775 --> 01:20:25,905
You are not a miner.

1408
01:20:26,255 --> 01:20:30,655
We are turning that upside down and saying, miners, you now, we are

1409
01:20:30,675 --> 01:20:36,605
economically incentivizing you to run a node To build your own templates and

1410
01:20:36,685 --> 01:20:42,795
to become a full Bitcoin miner again without the one issue of never, of not

1411
01:20:42,795 --> 01:20:44,555
being able to mine in a pooled context.

1412
01:20:44,565 --> 01:20:46,695
So you have to wait years until you get a reward.

1413
01:20:47,085 --> 01:20:48,085
That's not viable.

1414
01:20:48,155 --> 01:20:52,125
So we're saying we want to be a pool, we understand collaborative mining, but

1415
01:20:52,125 --> 01:20:56,325
we want to minimize and disintermediate everything about what the pool does.

1416
01:20:56,605 --> 01:20:58,705
Here's the Bitcoin network, here's the miner.

1417
01:20:58,965 --> 01:21:01,415
At the moment they are worlds apart.

1418
01:21:01,705 --> 01:21:07,400
What Ocean wants to do is say All we do is navigate and define the split of rewards.

1419
01:21:07,570 --> 01:21:11,480
So you, you did 66 percent of the mining, you did 33 percent of the mining.

1420
01:21:11,700 --> 01:21:13,540
You get two thirds of it, you get one third.

1421
01:21:13,810 --> 01:21:16,330
That's our job, to do that transparently.

1422
01:21:16,330 --> 01:21:20,230
It is not our job to say, these are the correct transactions that go

1423
01:21:20,230 --> 01:21:21,610
in the blockchain, those aren't.

1424
01:21:21,990 --> 01:21:24,420
And this might work against the anti spam.

1425
01:21:24,670 --> 01:21:25,230
Movement.

1426
01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:30,180
These are, these are different kinds of goals, but I guess, uh, like this is also

1427
01:21:30,180 --> 01:21:34,400
quite difficult to explain to people, like, why are you, surely Ocean would

1428
01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:38,950
be much more effective in its spam, you know, hostility, if you just forced all

1429
01:21:38,950 --> 01:21:43,960
your miners to use an anti spam template, but no, there's the deeper principle here

1430
01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:48,630
is miner freedom and miner sovereignty, and I will definitely prioritize that.

1431
01:21:48,640 --> 01:21:48,700
Thank you.

1432
01:21:48,970 --> 01:21:53,290
Over my, my stance on spam, but I think they're parallel wars and we

1433
01:21:53,290 --> 01:21:54,810
can win them both at the same time.

1434
01:21:54,810 --> 01:21:58,230
It's no coincidence that the people pushing for freedom that might work

1435
01:21:58,230 --> 01:22:03,030
against their own goals of spam filtration are also the ones pushing against spam.

1436
01:22:03,340 --> 01:22:07,560
So when people connect those two dots I think, you know, it's going to make sense.

1437
01:22:07,580 --> 01:22:10,940
The people that are not into freedom are also the ones forcing everyone to

1438
01:22:10,940 --> 01:22:15,240
mine spam right now, so I think people are going to ultimately go, freedom is

1439
01:22:15,260 --> 01:22:17,280
the freedom to use bitcoin without spam.

1440
01:22:17,320 --> 01:22:21,350
It's not freedom to let anyone use the network in ways that destroy it.

1441
01:22:21,590 --> 01:22:22,640
That's not freedom.

1442
01:22:22,650 --> 01:22:23,395
That's just what it is.

1443
01:22:23,655 --> 01:22:27,165
That's just, that's what most people's concept of anarchy is, you

1444
01:22:27,165 --> 01:22:30,165
know, that mistaken concept people have when they go, oh, this is pure

1445
01:22:30,175 --> 01:22:33,245
anarchism when, you know, a city is just burning itself to the ground.

1446
01:22:33,515 --> 01:22:37,215
It's not anarchism as philosophers would describe it or libertarians

1447
01:22:37,215 --> 01:22:40,125
would describe it, but you know what they're talking about, right?

1448
01:22:40,145 --> 01:22:44,785
Like, just lawlessness and a disregard for anything beyond the next 30 seconds.

1449
01:22:45,185 --> 01:22:47,015
That's what Bitcoin is like at the moment.

1450
01:22:47,035 --> 01:22:48,935
No one cares about it long term.

1451
01:22:49,430 --> 01:22:52,130
They're disregarding the future health of it and they're going, all right,

1452
01:22:52,140 --> 01:22:56,000
just burn, you know, tragedy of the commons, ruin it, everyone else is

1453
01:22:56,000 --> 01:22:58,790
going to ruin it, I can make more money if I ruin it faster than them.

1454
01:22:59,100 --> 01:23:00,140
That's not freedom.

1455
01:23:00,400 --> 01:23:03,580
That is, that is not low time preference at all.

1456
01:23:03,670 --> 01:23:06,180
So yeah, that's my, that's my answer.

1457
01:23:07,180 --> 01:23:08,530
That's very fiat.

1458
01:23:09,730 --> 01:23:10,370
We wish

1459
01:23:10,490 --> 01:23:10,530
fiat.

1460
01:23:12,240 --> 01:23:16,590
providers would look out for miners instead of miners on an island somewhere.

1461
01:23:17,405 --> 01:23:18,775
As that country singer would have put it.

1462
01:23:19,133 --> 01:23:23,306
there anything else you would like to add to this mechanic?

1463
01:23:23,306 --> 01:23:26,816
Like, about something else?

1464
01:23:26,816 --> 01:23:31,486
Or, like, some avenue we haven't been down yet?

1465
01:23:31,906 --> 01:23:34,336
Like, are you coming to Madeira, for instance?

1466
01:23:35,506 --> 01:23:38,076
Sorry I couldn't make it to South Carolina, but, like

1467
01:23:38,651 --> 01:23:41,581
Well, as long as you regret it, then we're good.

1468
01:23:41,971 --> 01:23:43,221
As long as you regret not going.

1469
01:23:43,646 --> 01:23:45,506
I definitely regret not going.

1470
01:23:45,506 --> 01:23:47,806
I was fucking crying here watching the live stream.

1471
01:23:48,471 --> 01:23:49,281
It was great.

1472
01:23:49,361 --> 01:23:53,411
I had a few people tell me, like, Gary Leland said he's been going

1473
01:23:53,411 --> 01:23:56,201
to Bitcoin conferences for 10 years and he's never watched a whole

1474
01:23:56,211 --> 01:23:58,701
presentation, let alone a presentation.

1475
01:23:59,101 --> 01:24:01,831
every presentation back to back.

1476
01:24:01,841 --> 01:24:04,821
He's like, I didn't, I didn't go outside and talk to anyone or anything like that.

1477
01:24:04,831 --> 01:24:08,801
I watched every single panel and listened to everything said on every panel.

1478
01:24:08,801 --> 01:24:11,391
He's like, that's never happened to me at a conference before.

1479
01:24:11,791 --> 01:24:12,501
And I agree.

1480
01:24:12,501 --> 01:24:13,901
I, every conference I go to.

1481
01:24:14,231 --> 01:24:16,821
I don't watch anyone on stage, I just go and talk to people, because

1482
01:24:16,831 --> 01:24:18,251
that's sort of the whole point, right?

1483
01:24:18,251 --> 01:24:21,401
And if there's a really good talk, I'll go home and watch it on YouTube later.

1484
01:24:21,451 --> 01:24:25,291
But, like, him, he's like, no, I watched every single one, it was fascinating.

1485
01:24:25,356 --> 01:24:26,566
It was like that for me.

1486
01:24:26,566 --> 01:24:30,996
I, well, I didn't watch all of it because I came in that last section there.

1487
01:24:31,296 --> 01:24:35,616
But as long as, just after you started talking, I couldn't stop.

1488
01:24:35,636 --> 01:24:40,036
Like, I had to watch the entire thing, of course, and Luke's and

1489
01:24:40,116 --> 01:24:41,576
Jack's announcements and everything.

1490
01:24:41,586 --> 01:24:42,716
Like, it was great.

1491
01:24:42,954 --> 01:24:45,524
Well, the hydroelectric plant was really cool as well.

1492
01:24:45,524 --> 01:24:48,784
There's, I don't know if you spoke to Bob about it when you had him on here.

1493
01:24:48,814 --> 01:24:49,634
Did he tell you,

1494
01:24:49,859 --> 01:24:52,769
No, no, that was before the Ocean announcement,

1495
01:24:53,154 --> 01:24:53,844
Ah, I see.

1496
01:24:54,099 --> 01:24:55,619
yeah, like a month before or two.

1497
01:24:56,089 --> 01:24:59,779
Oh no, he bought, that plant's, it's almost 200 years old,

1498
01:24:59,779 --> 01:25:02,229
that plant, it was from 1850,

1499
01:25:02,276 --> 01:25:04,726
yeah, it's super cool, a whole megawatt, and some of the

1500
01:25:04,726 --> 01:25:09,246
generators in there are staggeringly powerful, like, just stunning.

1501
01:25:09,306 --> 01:25:12,246
You can run, what, 300 bitcoin miners or something off that.

1502
01:25:12,616 --> 01:25:13,126
Is that right?

1503
01:25:14,216 --> 01:25:14,306
I

1504
01:25:14,536 --> 01:25:15,296
of a megawatt.

1505
01:25:15,786 --> 01:25:16,536
Yeah, I think so.

1506
01:25:17,836 --> 01:25:20,436
Yeah, it would be a thousand if a Bitcoin miner used a kilowatt

1507
01:25:20,476 --> 01:25:21,686
and they used three times that.

1508
01:25:21,746 --> 01:25:25,716
So yeah, you're around 300 Bitcoin miners, which doesn't sound that

1509
01:25:25,716 --> 01:25:28,766
impressive, but they do use an unbelievable amount of electricity.

1510
01:25:28,786 --> 01:25:28,996
So

1511
01:25:29,856 --> 01:25:30,456
Yeah, yeah,

1512
01:25:31,178 --> 01:25:32,888
yeah, I don't have anything else pressing.

1513
01:25:33,168 --> 01:25:35,348
Yeah, I don't have anything else on my mind particularly.

1514
01:25:35,898 --> 01:25:40,948
alright, where can, where do you wanna, um, find, where do

1515
01:25:40,948 --> 01:25:42,438
you wanna direct people to?

1516
01:25:42,488 --> 01:25:42,908
Ocean.

1517
01:25:42,908 --> 01:25:46,098
xyz, obviously, but where else?

1518
01:25:46,178 --> 01:25:48,438
Is there anywhere else you wanna direct people?

1519
01:25:48,868 --> 01:25:49,588
Yeah, ocean.

1520
01:25:49,588 --> 01:25:53,588
xyz is, you know, where you can go click on dashboard and you'll

1521
01:25:53,588 --> 01:25:55,048
see what our hash rate's doing.

1522
01:25:55,078 --> 01:25:57,328
It's been, it's been trending up a lot.

1523
01:25:57,658 --> 01:26:00,988
and that's good, because there is a minimum hash rate you need

1524
01:26:01,008 --> 01:26:04,968
to be viable as a pool, which is another sad limitation of Bitcoin.

1525
01:26:04,978 --> 01:26:08,228
You can't have thousands of pools, it just doesn't work, because then

1526
01:26:08,228 --> 01:26:10,998
everyone is solo mining that's on those pools, essentially.

1527
01:26:11,568 --> 01:26:15,958
But a pool needs to be of a certain size, and we've had a baptism of fire.

1528
01:26:16,513 --> 01:26:19,493
Because our pool has been very low hash rate, which means

1529
01:26:19,493 --> 01:26:20,963
it's very hard for miners.

1530
01:26:21,043 --> 01:26:24,583
At one point, they waited over three weeks for block number three, which is

1531
01:26:24,583 --> 01:26:26,473
a long time to go without a payment.

1532
01:26:26,493 --> 01:26:29,703
And when you get the payment, it's not a much higher payment

1533
01:26:29,713 --> 01:26:30,773
because of how long you waited.

1534
01:26:30,773 --> 01:26:32,683
It's just however much was in that block.

1535
01:26:33,023 --> 01:26:37,503
So, you know, um, we're around 88 percent luck at the moment,

1536
01:26:37,523 --> 01:26:39,223
so we're around 12 percent below.

1537
01:26:39,658 --> 01:26:43,538
Uh, you know, average luck, but that's gonna, that we're going to deviate

1538
01:26:43,548 --> 01:26:46,928
wildly from a hundred percent because of how low our hash rate is, but

1539
01:26:46,928 --> 01:26:48,888
it's trending up and getting better.

1540
01:26:49,028 --> 01:26:50,238
So that's all that matters.

1541
01:26:50,258 --> 01:26:52,818
As long as it's moving in the right direction, that's all that matters.

1542
01:26:53,128 --> 01:26:55,498
So that's OceanXYZ, definitely mine with us.

1543
01:26:55,648 --> 01:26:59,178
If, if you're interested in mining and you're a Bitcoiner and you care about

1544
01:26:59,178 --> 01:27:02,538
the long term health of the network, I can confidently say there's nothing

1545
01:27:02,538 --> 01:27:04,428
else that's a remotely good option.

1546
01:27:04,668 --> 01:27:09,788
In the mining space, beyond solo mining, but that's no good for most people anyway.

1547
01:27:09,858 --> 01:27:14,018
Um, you can find me on Twitter, I'm at grassfedbitcoin.

1548
01:27:14,544 --> 01:27:18,534
obviously I'm a carnivorous meat enthusiast and my other half has

1549
01:27:18,534 --> 01:27:20,514
cooked some ribs for me overnight.

1550
01:27:20,534 --> 01:27:24,219
She slow cooked some ribs, so I'm super excited to go and eat that now.

1551
01:27:24,459 --> 01:27:27,079
And, uh, I don't, I don't think I have anything else really.

1552
01:27:27,079 --> 01:27:30,389
We've got like Discord and Telegram, support chats and all that stuff

1553
01:27:30,399 --> 01:27:32,489
with some pretty vibrant communities.

1554
01:27:32,929 --> 01:27:36,199
Uh, if you post a picture of a block when we didn't actually find a block,

1555
01:27:36,219 --> 01:27:39,589
we'll definitely kick you out of the chat for that, for ruining everyone's day.

1556
01:27:39,959 --> 01:27:42,209
Uh, a couple of people did that.

1557
01:27:42,869 --> 01:27:44,139
Um, yeah, that's it.

1558
01:27:44,149 --> 01:27:44,579
That's it.

1559
01:27:44,589 --> 01:27:47,209
That's all, that's all I really got on my mind right now.

1560
01:27:47,797 --> 01:27:48,227
Great.

1561
01:27:48,327 --> 01:27:53,797
Looking forward to see you whenever, whenever the next opportunity comes and

1562
01:27:53,797 --> 01:27:57,517
to jam and to do a lot of fun things.

1563
01:27:58,082 --> 01:27:58,732
Thanks guys.

1564
01:27:58,732 --> 01:27:59,442
Thanks for having me.

1565
01:27:59,442 --> 01:28:04,092
And I'm really, uh, it's really nice to, to be among sort of people, well,

1566
01:28:04,242 --> 01:28:07,972
definitely people on the right side of this new war that's emerging.

1567
01:28:08,352 --> 01:28:12,412
It should be pretty trivial, but there is some, there is some, some mess

1568
01:28:12,632 --> 01:28:17,322
and some ideological confusion around and, you know, anything you want to

1569
01:28:17,322 --> 01:28:18,822
do to correct narratives around that.

1570
01:28:18,822 --> 01:28:22,902
I saw Knut that you wrote a post about, you know, uh, if there's a

1571
01:28:22,902 --> 01:28:26,742
service designed for purpose A and people start using it for purpose B.

1572
01:28:27,227 --> 01:28:31,367
That you don't just go, oh, freedom, like, and I had made this analogy a

1573
01:28:31,367 --> 01:28:35,427
few times, I made a similar one myself, independently of you, about like a bus

1574
01:28:35,727 --> 01:28:40,367
service, where FedEx figures out they can use this bus service to ship parcels

1575
01:28:40,367 --> 01:28:43,707
around really cheaply, and then all the buses in the city are full of cardboard

1576
01:28:43,727 --> 01:28:47,427
boxes instead of people, and everyone's going, oh, it's freedom, how do you

1577
01:28:47,427 --> 01:28:51,317
define what a cardboard box is versus a human, what if someone goes on with a

1578
01:28:51,327 --> 01:28:56,452
backpack, are you gonna ban them as well, like, and I'm saying, look, Luke Jr.

1579
01:28:56,452 --> 01:28:59,052
is sitting down there in the engine room of the city saying,

1580
01:28:59,102 --> 01:29:00,892
no one can get around the city.

1581
01:29:00,922 --> 01:29:02,982
I don't care about the philosophy of it.

1582
01:29:03,012 --> 01:29:06,652
Like, the bus isn't doing its job, which is to get people around.

1583
01:29:06,692 --> 01:29:09,212
It's not to become a parcel service.

1584
01:29:09,242 --> 01:29:11,022
Like, can we just fix this?

1585
01:29:11,072 --> 01:29:13,962
Like, if you're a cardboard box, you can't get on this thing.

1586
01:29:14,272 --> 01:29:16,342
Like, it's just that simple, right?

1587
01:29:16,342 --> 01:29:18,642
There's no philosophical discussion necessary.

1588
01:29:18,642 --> 01:29:19,812
That's just distraction.

1589
01:29:20,122 --> 01:29:23,362
Like, and well, which is weird for a podcast like this, that's mostly

1590
01:29:23,362 --> 01:29:24,792
philosophical in nature, but.

1591
01:29:25,207 --> 01:29:25,807
You

1592
01:29:25,867 --> 01:29:27,607
think it is highly philosophical.

1593
01:29:27,607 --> 01:29:31,237
I I just think this, that, that's, uh, what the other side is doing.

1594
01:29:31,537 --> 01:29:34,897
here, if you can even call it the, even calling it the other side is

1595
01:29:34,897 --> 01:29:38,797
like, what, what the scammers are doing is that they're, they're promoting

1596
01:29:38,797 --> 01:29:41,917
false philosophical insights, which aren't really insights at all.

1597
01:29:42,487 --> 01:29:44,217
we call it whataboutism, right?

1598
01:29:44,567 --> 01:29:44,687
yeah.

1599
01:29:44,687 --> 01:29:49,187
What about is and, uh, yeah, just plain lies about and, and,

1600
01:29:49,187 --> 01:29:51,767
uh, semantics like, um, there.

1601
01:29:52,497 --> 01:29:57,087
Their version of censorship, they're interpreting the word wrong.

1602
01:29:57,157 --> 01:30:01,767
Censorship requires coercion, like otherwise it isn't censorship, right?

1603
01:30:02,517 --> 01:30:05,377
I think, I still don't know how to define it exactly.

1604
01:30:05,407 --> 01:30:09,417
I think coercion is a good, uh, starting point, though I think

1605
01:30:09,417 --> 01:30:13,207
censorship can also be voluntary compliance with government crap.

1606
01:30:13,517 --> 01:30:14,607
Like, it can be,

1607
01:30:15,037 --> 01:30:16,207
Yeah, but that is coercion.

1608
01:30:16,587 --> 01:30:19,577
If it's compliant with the government, it is coercion.

1609
01:30:19,862 --> 01:30:22,622
It's hard to see that as anything other than coercion because it can

1610
01:30:22,622 --> 01:30:25,472
be presented as, as voluntary, right?

1611
01:30:25,472 --> 01:30:29,652
They can say, hey, if you, if you, if you're OFAC compliant, we will give

1612
01:30:29,652 --> 01:30:31,472
you a tax break or something like that.

1613
01:30:31,472 --> 01:30:35,482
But all that is, is, uh, like we will coerce you less if you allow

1614
01:30:35,482 --> 01:30:36,642
us to coerce you in another way.

1615
01:30:36,907 --> 01:30:38,747
it's voluntary with a gun to your head.

1616
01:30:38,837 --> 01:30:41,087
Like, it's not consensual, it's voluntary.

1617
01:30:41,087 --> 01:30:42,947
That's, that's the difference between the two.

1618
01:30:43,322 --> 01:30:47,032
Yeah, so I, I consider it's, it's not just governments that can coerce.

1619
01:30:47,102 --> 01:30:50,972
So if, if we're going to get bullied into putting stuff in our templates

1620
01:30:51,022 --> 01:30:53,282
that we don't want, that is censorship.

1621
01:30:53,422 --> 01:30:55,872
Because you don't have infinitely large blocks.

1622
01:30:55,912 --> 01:30:59,742
We have to forego genuine financial transactions to put in the spam

1623
01:30:59,892 --> 01:31:01,272
that you're forcing us to put in.

1624
01:31:01,892 --> 01:31:04,422
That's way more consistent with the definition of

1625
01:31:04,422 --> 01:31:05,782
censorship as I understand it.

1626
01:31:08,077 --> 01:31:10,047
So, yeah, in my mind it's FUD.

1627
01:31:10,057 --> 01:31:11,057
It's total FUD.

1628
01:31:11,707 --> 01:31:13,687
And it took us, it took us a long time.

1629
01:31:13,697 --> 01:31:15,867
Like, we had a lot of people stressing out, like, what's

1630
01:31:15,867 --> 01:31:17,077
going on with the censorship?

1631
01:31:17,107 --> 01:31:19,177
Like, how, how are you doing this in Bitcoin?

1632
01:31:19,347 --> 01:31:21,097
You must be attacking Bitcoin, right?

1633
01:31:21,097 --> 01:31:22,417
You're censoring transactions.

1634
01:31:23,052 --> 01:31:25,842
This took weeks to sort out all this mess, right?

1635
01:31:25,862 --> 01:31:27,302
You know, what is it?

1636
01:31:27,322 --> 01:31:30,822
Like, lies make it around the world while the truth is still putting his shoes on.

1637
01:31:30,832 --> 01:31:33,942
Like, it was, took a while, but I think we actually did it.

1638
01:31:33,982 --> 01:31:35,622
Because the hash rate's going back up now.

1639
01:31:36,002 --> 01:31:39,962
Every time I see people sort of go, you know, uh, there's this, there's

1640
01:31:39,962 --> 01:31:43,272
one guy I accidentally upset in the spaces the other day, who's like,

1641
01:31:43,272 --> 01:31:45,862
uh, He takes himself very seriously.

1642
01:31:46,072 --> 01:31:48,922
I'm not going to say his name because he's probably gonna sue me at this point.

1643
01:31:48,932 --> 01:31:54,102
He's had a multi day meltdown because, uh, I, I made a sort of slightly offhand

1644
01:31:54,132 --> 01:31:58,522
comment about him being confused about inscriptions and he went insane over

1645
01:31:58,522 --> 01:32:02,832
it and is telling everyone, nevermind with Ocean, I will pull all my wealth

1646
01:32:02,832 --> 01:32:04,432
out of your stocks and all that stuff.

1647
01:32:04,962 --> 01:32:05,322
He went

1648
01:32:05,507 --> 01:32:05,917
I know

1649
01:32:06,037 --> 01:32:06,877
this gentleman.

1650
01:32:06,959 --> 01:32:07,524
Knut, you

1651
01:32:07,537 --> 01:32:08,857
probably know as well, yes.

1652
01:32:09,462 --> 01:32:13,250
it's so the guy's like having a real fit about it, I don't want to invite

1653
01:32:13,250 --> 01:32:17,790
more drama, like, as a pleb I can do this stuff, as, as a representative

1654
01:32:17,790 --> 01:32:22,200
of Ocean, I can't invite active, like, hostile people that are gonna start

1655
01:32:22,560 --> 01:32:25,560
throwing around lawsuits and stuff like that, it's just irresponsible,

1656
01:32:25,850 --> 01:32:31,400
but nonetheless, when he started sort of accusing us of censorship, it was

1657
01:32:31,410 --> 01:32:35,050
really nice to watch everyone respond and go, I think you're just personally

1658
01:32:35,070 --> 01:32:39,375
butthurt over a comment, you Like I made, I don't think anything about this.

1659
01:32:39,375 --> 01:32:41,145
And do you know what censorship is?

1660
01:32:41,515 --> 01:32:43,485
Like everyone is just on it now.

1661
01:32:43,495 --> 01:32:47,665
When anyone's going ocean census transactions, I see like 90 percent of

1662
01:32:47,665 --> 01:32:52,515
responses, like go back to school, learn what censorship is, appreciate the freedom

1663
01:32:52,515 --> 01:32:55,885
miners have to include what they want in blocks, stop trying to force people to

1664
01:32:55,885 --> 01:33:01,015
include malicious stuff in the blockchain, like go and look in the mirror, like it's

1665
01:33:01,015 --> 01:33:02,905
been really nice to watch that change of.

1666
01:33:03,435 --> 01:33:04,305
Um, you know, heart.

1667
01:33:04,645 --> 01:33:07,405
And even some people that formerly attacked us have, have

1668
01:33:07,515 --> 01:33:09,925
had a change of heart and gone, Oh, I actually get this now.

1669
01:33:10,275 --> 01:33:13,575
So the truth is winning out and I'm really happy about it.

1670
01:33:13,615 --> 01:33:17,715
And like the camaraderie I feel and this, the emergence of another

1671
01:33:17,715 --> 01:33:20,425
war in Bitcoin is, it's beautiful.

1672
01:33:20,435 --> 01:33:23,895
I know that I'm going to be sitting down with you guys in 10 years in a pub

1673
01:33:23,895 --> 01:33:27,465
somewhere in some beautiful location where a Bitcoin conference is and just

1674
01:33:27,735 --> 01:33:29,555
looking back at this and going, yeah.

1675
01:33:29,865 --> 01:33:33,585
I'm remembering every detail one by one like, do you remember when Ocean launched?

1676
01:33:33,595 --> 01:33:34,785
Do you remember when this happened?

1677
01:33:34,805 --> 01:33:38,295
Like, I think it's going to be a really nice moment to look back on.

1678
01:33:38,713 --> 01:33:39,263
Fantastic.

1679
01:33:39,273 --> 01:33:41,403
For lack of a better word, amen, brother.

1680
01:33:42,133 --> 01:33:42,593
All right.

1681
01:33:43,703 --> 01:33:45,483
I'm not, you did that with Jimmy Song.

1682
01:33:45,553 --> 01:33:47,773
I'm definitely not going there on this.

1683
01:33:47,913 --> 01:33:49,403
No, no, no, I'm not going there either.

1684
01:33:49,553 --> 01:33:53,963
I'm not that interested in having that debate, to be honest, I like, I like,

1685
01:33:54,393 --> 01:33:58,823
I like getting along with people better than, than fighting them over stuff

1686
01:33:58,823 --> 01:34:01,033
that doesn't matter for, for Bitcoin.

1687
01:34:01,483 --> 01:34:02,243
Yeah, fair enough.

1688
01:34:02,273 --> 01:34:06,113
I don't, I think it's a out of band, definitely an out of band discussion.

1689
01:34:06,333 --> 01:34:10,593
Yeah, we should, we should do that, uh, in that pub in 10 years from now,

1690
01:34:10,603 --> 01:34:12,693
or hopefully a bit earlier than that.

1691
01:34:13,143 --> 01:34:15,783
Yeah, I hope it doesn't take 10 years to get rid of the spam.

1692
01:34:15,863 --> 01:34:17,433
I'm hoping it's another few months.

1693
01:34:17,553 --> 01:34:21,963
I think you have this, uh, we keep establ we keep dragging this out.

1694
01:34:21,973 --> 01:34:25,043
I'm sorry to anyone listening that feels like, you know, they need

1695
01:34:25,043 --> 01:34:26,083
think they appreciate it.

1696
01:34:26,373 --> 01:34:31,268
Yeah, well, I think, I think, like, I think ultimately, uh,

1697
01:34:31,753 --> 01:34:32,313
the show.

1698
01:34:32,628 --> 01:34:36,128
yeah, let's just fill it up with unintended stuff.

1699
01:34:36,458 --> 01:34:39,448
I mean, look, I think ultimately we're a few months away.

1700
01:34:39,508 --> 01:34:44,068
I think Ocean is sort of, there's this beautiful synchronicity that Ocean

1701
01:34:44,068 --> 01:34:49,708
is around and this option for spam filtration while spam is suddenly, you

1702
01:34:49,708 --> 01:34:53,538
know, bashing us all over the heads with how much of a problem it is.

1703
01:34:53,758 --> 01:34:57,578
Like, if we were trying to solve the spam issue without the context of the

1704
01:34:57,578 --> 01:35:03,708
spam, you know, campaigning for updated spam filtration inside, you know,

1705
01:35:03,718 --> 01:35:06,058
the core default mempool policies.

1706
01:35:07,278 --> 01:35:10,078
If we were trying to do that in a context where there wasn't any spam,

1707
01:35:10,568 --> 01:35:12,178
how would this conversation progress?

1708
01:35:12,198 --> 01:35:15,638
I just, it would, you know, it would be on the mailing list and there'd be like,

1709
01:35:15,808 --> 01:35:19,078
it'd be a very academic discussion and there'd be no movement on it at all.

1710
01:35:19,258 --> 01:35:23,188
Like, it would be like it was, actually, the pull request for Bitcoin Core to

1711
01:35:23,228 --> 01:35:26,988
default bear multisig to off is from 2014.

1712
01:35:27,548 --> 01:35:30,438
And you've got Luke in there saying, this serves no purpose, turn it

1713
01:35:30,458 --> 01:35:32,398
off, it can be used for spam later.

1714
01:35:32,658 --> 01:35:34,848
And there's a couple of whataboutisms in there.

1715
01:35:35,163 --> 01:35:40,973
from, amazingly, uh, Peter Todd, Mike Hearn, Ryan X Charles, and

1716
01:35:41,063 --> 01:35:46,123
um, one other person that became, you know, a Bcasher or a BSVer.

1717
01:35:46,313 --> 01:35:48,663
Like, they basically all wrote themselves out of the script.

1718
01:35:48,963 --> 01:35:52,573
I think Jeff Garzik weirdly was in favor of turning it off, but he turned into a

1719
01:35:52,613 --> 01:35:57,288
Bcasher later on anyway, or He would, no, he was the Segwit2Xer, not the Bcasher.

1720
01:35:57,678 --> 01:35:59,548
But the point is we had it back then.

1721
01:35:59,548 --> 01:36:02,978
It was a theoretical discussion where most people went, uh, just leave it.

1722
01:36:03,038 --> 01:36:05,708
Maybe someone uses it for its intended purposes once.

1723
01:36:05,968 --> 01:36:07,428
I don't see any spam, do you?

1724
01:36:07,668 --> 01:36:11,708
And now we're like inundated with stamps crap that's permanently bloating the

1725
01:36:11,708 --> 01:36:17,458
UTXO set and we're revisiting that, that PR from nine years ago saying, uh,

1726
01:36:17,458 --> 01:36:21,278
it's time to turn this on, what were we thinking back then, and I'm just saying.

1727
01:36:21,693 --> 01:36:25,533
The context in which we're fighting spam is a context in which we

1728
01:36:25,533 --> 01:36:27,703
are completely inundated with it.

1729
01:36:27,933 --> 01:36:30,223
That's helpful, because we can point to it and say, look.

1730
01:36:30,523 --> 01:36:34,393
And this is my favorite thing about the OCEAN website, it shows you

1731
01:36:34,413 --> 01:36:36,273
visualizations of the different templates.

1732
01:36:36,723 --> 01:36:41,273
And, um, the core default template that doesn't do any spam filtration

1733
01:36:41,813 --> 01:36:46,093
has You know, uh, we have blue for the, for the real transactions, and

1734
01:36:46,133 --> 01:36:51,173
poop brown for the, uh, for the spam transactions, and they are, it's the

1735
01:36:51,173 --> 01:36:56,523
exact hex code for poop colored brown, and, uh, yesterday we started working

1736
01:36:56,523 --> 01:37:01,098
on turning them into poo emojis instead of actual, you know, Just brown.

1737
01:37:01,098 --> 01:37:02,728
It will actually be poo emojis.

1738
01:37:03,098 --> 01:37:06,218
And I'm thinking this has got to be useful when you're selecting a template

1739
01:37:06,218 --> 01:37:09,498
with ocean, if you've got to select the one literally full of shit, if

1740
01:37:09,498 --> 01:37:13,028
you've got to select that one, I'm going to, I'm going to mine with that.

1741
01:37:13,038 --> 01:37:17,018
How much I make 3 million more sats divided amongst.

1742
01:37:17,398 --> 01:37:23,388
The 400 of us mining on this pool, that will result in an extra 7 every

1743
01:37:23,418 --> 01:37:27,728
19 days, or whatever the calculation, and then I have to knowingly fill

1744
01:37:27,728 --> 01:37:29,528
up the blockchain with actual crap.

1745
01:37:29,788 --> 01:37:32,828
I'm confident that most people are going to go, this isn't worth it,

1746
01:37:32,838 --> 01:37:36,153
this is a bunch of FUD, like, this spam is nowhere near worth it.

1747
01:37:36,983 --> 01:37:37,913
I'm gonna mine the other one.

1748
01:37:38,103 --> 01:37:41,903
Oh, and the pool charges me 2 percent if I use the spam template and 0

1749
01:37:41,903 --> 01:37:44,343
percent if I use the filtered one.

1750
01:37:44,993 --> 01:37:46,013
Why am I gonna do that?

1751
01:37:46,023 --> 01:37:48,713
I'm actually gonna come out economically worse because

1752
01:37:48,713 --> 01:37:50,033
it doesn't even amount to 2%.

1753
01:37:50,033 --> 01:37:53,533
I'm gonna pay more in fees to the pool for selecting spam.

1754
01:37:53,813 --> 01:37:57,013
Like, so someone would have to be, in principle, in favor of

1755
01:37:57,053 --> 01:38:00,843
the spam to their own financial detriment to actually go that way.

1756
01:38:01,073 --> 01:38:04,173
So you'd have to be philosophically completely gaslit.

1757
01:38:04,363 --> 01:38:08,253
And interested in earning less money to mine with Ocean and mine the spam.

1758
01:38:08,423 --> 01:38:10,093
So that's why no one's done it.

1759
01:38:10,433 --> 01:38:14,533
But like, it would be really funny if like, yeah, we're gonna get the

1760
01:38:14,533 --> 01:38:18,653
poo emoji, we're gonna get the litter floating around in the ocean, you know,

1761
01:38:18,663 --> 01:38:23,323
the plastic straws or whatever it is that's so bad for the ocean, we're gonna

1762
01:38:23,323 --> 01:38:27,373
put all that in there, try and avoid any of the environmentalist tropes, keep

1763
01:38:27,373 --> 01:38:30,123
to the valid ones, maybe an oil slick.

1764
01:38:30,248 --> 01:38:30,738
What do you think?

1765
01:38:30,748 --> 01:38:33,498
Should we have just an oil slick of spam floating around?

1766
01:38:34,497 --> 01:38:41,507
We were with the Tall Ship in Santo Domingo once, uh, you know, um, uh, in

1767
01:38:41,557 --> 01:38:46,287
the Dominican Republic, uh, uh, and, uh, the river that flows out there

1768
01:38:46,287 --> 01:38:48,907
was completely filled with garbage.

1769
01:38:49,697 --> 01:38:56,547
A dead, bloated dead horse and stuff, all sorts of crap that floated by, so it's

1770
01:38:56,567 --> 01:39:00,977
like, go to one of those rivers that are polluting the oceans and take a couple of

1771
01:39:00,977 --> 01:39:02,397
pictures and you'll find what you like.

1772
01:39:03,127 --> 01:39:06,897
So like your question earlier, like if I can answer it again about what I'm

1773
01:39:06,897 --> 01:39:11,717
doing for freedom, I think you can't have freedom without responsibility and anyone

1774
01:39:11,717 --> 01:39:16,017
watching a river in the Philippines or wherever it was you said, just as flowing

1775
01:39:16,017 --> 01:39:19,927
with garbage, there's someone that's been completely irresponsible to do that.

1776
01:39:20,342 --> 01:39:22,462
That's like, yes, it was free.

1777
01:39:22,522 --> 01:39:24,962
They had the freedom to dump all their garbage in there.

1778
01:39:24,992 --> 01:39:25,512
Hooray.

1779
01:39:25,542 --> 01:39:27,702
But they were also completely irresponsible.

1780
01:39:27,702 --> 01:39:29,832
And if you're irresponsible, your freedoms don't last.

1781
01:39:30,442 --> 01:39:33,002
So have some low time preference.

1782
01:39:33,062 --> 01:39:37,852
You exercise judgment within, you know, the context of being allowed to

1783
01:39:37,852 --> 01:39:39,762
do what you make your own judgments.

1784
01:39:40,012 --> 01:39:44,362
Like you make good judgments if you're allowed to make them at all, I guess is

1785
01:39:44,552 --> 01:39:47,722
the sort of the moral lesson here, right?

1786
01:39:48,682 --> 01:39:49,442
absolutely.

1787
01:39:49,932 --> 01:39:55,322
And to sum up, to paraphrase Robin Williams, uh, block templates are

1788
01:39:55,322 --> 01:39:59,042
like diapers, they should be exchanged often and for the same reason.

1789
01:39:59,622 --> 01:40:00,032
Alright.

1790
01:40:00,162 --> 01:40:00,912
I like it.

1791
01:40:03,182 --> 01:40:03,652
Alright.

1792
01:40:04,162 --> 01:40:05,152
Thank you very much, Mr.

1793
01:40:05,162 --> 01:40:07,402
Mechanic, and I hope to see you soon again.

1794
01:40:07,622 --> 01:40:09,502
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.

1795
01:40:09,642 --> 01:40:14,032
Don't forget to like, subscribe, and brush your teeth, and change your, uh,

1796
01:40:14,152 --> 01:40:16,792
minor to, like, direct it to Ocean.

1797
01:40:17,092 --> 01:40:21,212
Yeah, definitely come on with us and we'll, we'll give you good support.

1798
01:40:21,722 --> 01:40:22,332
Fantastic.

1799
01:40:22,532 --> 01:40:24,495
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show, as Knut said.

1800
01:40:24,725 --> 01:40:25,475
Thanks for listening.