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It was really extraordinary to be in the capital of the United States, not being persecuted, welcomed by an elite university, welcomed by the Kennedy Center itself.

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To me, the Satoshi is one of the only things on planet Earth that are actually sacred.

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The biggest frustration for me in this discussion is that it's not a dialogue a lot of the time.

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It's a debate and it's not a debate fought on rational merit.

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It's a debate on who is the most insulting of the other person.

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We worship the lead developers.

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We worship these people who had protected, preserved, advanced Bitcoin for some time.

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And so we wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt, right?

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It wasn't don't trust, verify.

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It is the most valuable property in the world.

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It's a new form of property.

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It's not well understood.

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For the rest of your life, Bitcoin will be under attack.

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And as is your state, as is anything that's valuable.

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We really have to avoid the Disney remake of Bitcoin.

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That would be the worst outcome ever.

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Why do Albertans want to secede from the state of Canada,

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from the federation, from the nation of Canada?

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Well, they're being stolen.

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I wish I could live 200 years just to see the outcome

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of what's going to be with Bitcoin and sovereignty

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and city-states and culture.

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Tomer, my friend, welcome back to the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

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Nice to have you here.

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Thanks for having me back.

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I'm thrilled to be back.

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the highlight of my life is getting to come on your show. Fantastic. Yeah, I just spent a couple

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of hours with you though. That's what I mean. Always a pleasure to talk to you. It was a long

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time now since we last saw each other. I think Madeira was the last one, right? That's the last

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time we saw each other in person and maybe did this podcast. I do think you and I spent New

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year's eve oh yeah yeah yeah at one of our friends house in miami that was good fun yeah

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but we haven't seen each other since new year's and it's now practically white paper day yeah

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almost a year has passed but not quite um what have you been up to since well most recently yeah in

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In the fall, at the end of September, beginning of October,

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I was involved in the BTC in DC conference,

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which I'm eager to tell you a few details about without spending too much time.

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And then just last week, there was the Canadian Bitcoin conference in Montreal

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that I attended as well.

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Both were good Bitcoin-only conferences.

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Yeah, I saw some stuff from the DC thing.

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I hear Larry Lepard was the bassest boomer ever,

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like doing his bass boomer thing.

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Yeah, he was also at the Canadian Bitcoin Conference

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and at the Canadian one, the event was quite far from the hotel.

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It was like a 30 to 40 minute walk

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and I had the privilege of walking back with him and Cedric Youngelman

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and we had a really good long talk.

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Larry is a real treasurer in the Bitcoin community.

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He calls him as he sees him.

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He's a wise old man,

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and I mean that in the kindest and most flattering way.

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And he's very thoughtful.

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He's got a lot of experience to bring.

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So he's definitely worth listening to

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for as long as he continues to be a contributor.

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But switching to the BTC and DC conference,

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that was a really interesting event

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that was put on by the George Washington University,

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which is like a top 10 university in the United States and a private university.

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And the fact that they had an interest in Bitcoin and Bitcoin only,

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rather than rejecting the whole idea as part of a scam or bringing all the scammers in for something novel,

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was really excellent.

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It was held at the Kennedy Center for Performing Arts,

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which I'm sure almost everyone everywhere in the world is familiar with.

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You've seen honorary events televised from there,

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like the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Dr. Sled Zeppelin.

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So it was really extraordinary to be in the capital of the United States,

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not being persecuted, welcomed by an elite university,

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welcomed by the Kennedy Center itself.

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there was something about it uh you know you know people dressed up uh bitcoiners dressed up i know

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a couple of people who were there who said that they bought a suit to attend the event and i

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commented that it was the first time in seven years that i tucked my shirt in so it was it was

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there was i had an opportunity to have a conversation with one of the administrators at the

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university because we're I'm talking with them about something more formal for Bitcoin and the

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point that came up to me during the conversation which I made is you know Bitcoin is built off of

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the most advanced mathematical theories the most rational economic know know-how that we have it

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utilizes the most advanced microprocessing manufacturing technology and the most efficient

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energy markets. It stands to change a lot about how we think about our time preference, economics,

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philosophy, so many different things. So coming into a university for the first time where

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knowledge has perhaps been, well, exclusive of Bitcoin, not embracing of Bitcoin, one can be

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even more critical of a lot of the stuff that's gone on at universities, is a homecoming. It's a

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coming home of great ideas into institutions that are meant to develop, protect, espouse,

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teach great ideas. So to me, the Bitcoin arrival at Washington, D.C., at the George Washington

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University was like the prodigal son returning and hopefully being welcomed. And I'm seeing very

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positive results in the conversations that I'm having there. So it was unique, right? It was a

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milestone albeit acquired when bitcoiners dressed up not because they wanted to bow down to the um

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to the establishment but to present themselves as you know credible uh to the establishment

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and uh and and to your comment larry lepard didn't exactly mince his words he said the

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something to the effect of these you know the government is filled with evil

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fuckers i can't remember the exact quote but it was it was that was the sentiment and and verbiage

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of it uh and and it received applause but you know sitting next to him was a u.s senator

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when he when he said present company excluded uh it was well it was well received so this met

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metamorphosis of bitcoin to a mature widely known widely understood respected asset took a step

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forward there i don't want to say it's there yet i think we still have a long way to go but um but

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it was nice and i understand that they're planning on doing it again next year same you know same

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place same supporters the great speakers came to it as well uh from all walks but you know lots of

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lots of the most prominent bitcoiners especially the ones who do the north american circuit were

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there yeah uh larry is not afraid of calling a spade a spade and calling theft theft so right

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that's always and i i find it i i bet there was a lot of suit coiners there like uh the the latest

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saying is you either die a bitcoin or live long enough to see yourself become a suit coiner yeah

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you know it's um i actually think there are more suit coiners at the canadian bitcoin conference

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because they gave a lot of stage time there

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to the idea of treasury companies.

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And I think the treasury companies had to put on a suit

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because their valuations have been diminished a fair bit

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so that they don't really have much else to stand on.

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But the BTC and DC conference,

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because it was put on by the university,

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had a lot of intellectual topics.

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So like Giacomo was there

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and he was talking about Bitcoin education

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and Bitstein was there from the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute.

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He was talking about the importance of preserving knowledge and know-how and talking about his communications with the university.

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So there was an intellectual air about it that, you know, maybe I think Giacomo wore a suit jacket, but a T-shirt underneath.

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And I can't remember exactly what Michael wore, but it was like, it wasn't Bitcoin in corporations.

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It was Bitcoin in the mind, Bitcoin in the government, Bitcoin.

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It wasn't that there was no discussion of it or no presence of suit coiners.

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But we didn't have a bunch of people pitching.

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We didn't see a bunch of people pitching treasury companies on crazy ideas.

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That wasn't present at all, actually.

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That's great to hear because if there's one phrase that I miss hearing from all of these conferences like the last couple of years, it's the phrase, not your keys, not your coins.

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Nobody says that anymore, but it's still just as true as it always was.

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And we're missing the bigger underlying truth here that Bitcoin is not like other assets.

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It's not something that corporations really can own, is it?

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Yeah.

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They delegate the ownership to a committee, and a committee is a composition of individuals.

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Yeah.

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Let me pick your brain on this one.

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This is one of my pet peeve rabbit holes here.

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The way I look at it and the way I try to explain it to suit coiners and the likes of them,

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Like in Lugano, you meet a lot of bankers and similar.

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It is that like you cannot really own a Bitcoin or you cannot possess it.

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Like ownership is a legal relationship between you and a thing.

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But Bitcoin isn't really a thing.

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And if you're if you believe in uncapped principles, then there is no such thing

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as owning information because you don't have intellectual property.

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It's not a thing.

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Like we all know that if I have information, I don't lose anything by you having the same information as me.

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Unless it's your private key.

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Exactly.

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I'm coming to that.

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Possession is when I actually physically control something.

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So if I steal your car, you still own it, but I possess it if I stole it.

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So, but Bitcoin is, to me, it's a layer deeper because it's just information, but it's asymmetric information.

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meaning like that i can act as if i owned it because i i find it improbable that someone else

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has access to the same private key as i do so so it's it's just a secret i keep from others i also

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find it improbable or implausible that the the network will change to such an extent that it

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will render my Satoshi useless because the 21 million cap is changed or some other technical

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change that will lead to unforeseen consequences.

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So like that's the only reasons that I can act as if I own the Satoshi.

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So the thing that is valuable is not the Satoshi itself.

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It's the ability to move the Satoshi.

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And the Satoshi itself is not really ownable.

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Would you agree with this?

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Or do you have another view?

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I will not agree because it would be a boring podcast if I agree.

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Exactly.

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Please debunk me.

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Yeah.

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Well, what I'm going to come down to is a bit of an epistemological point, which

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is, you know, working with concept and their definite and their definition.

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So none of what you said technically is, is incorrect.

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And some of the words are significant understatements like improbable, you

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know, like profoundly astronomically improbable is the, are the right

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adjectives to qualify improbable with in in the case of cryptography and bitcoin but um when we

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talk about when we use a concept like ownership um and historically the concept would have referred

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to a combination of possession and legal retro legal enforcement right like a right situation

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where really there's no state you know it's like two kids playing with a ball and the one who

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who has it, is the owner of it, the one who possesses it. But if there's a dispute,

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you expect, you know, they're either going to fight it over and one's going to walk home with

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the ball and say it's his at this point, or the parents are going to come in and say, no,

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you have to respect the property rights. So it's not a legal thing per se, but there's authority

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and enforcement. So the ability to enforce your possession of something is something that we would

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have called ownership. And, you know, and in Bitcoin, there is, this is, I think, where it's

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important that we don't get lost in the technicalities. You do own a Bitcoin, right? The manner in which

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you own Bitcoin is not physical enforcement because it not a physical good You enforce your ownership by knowing something that you don disclose to others right So the secrecy is ownership of

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an idea. If we broaden the concept of ownership to having control, possession, like exclusive

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control and possession of something. So you need to keep your private key secret to keep your

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bitcoin and i don't think that there's anything wrong with that sentence though the word using

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your implying it belongs to you you're the you're the owner of it right and that's what i mean by

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you can act as if you know it and sufficiently improbable right and so it's sufficient so you

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know being if we if we're going to language i don't think you need to make qualifications right

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well when you say not your keys not your coins they are your coins they are your keys the manner

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in which you keep them is by having a secret that you don't disclose to anyone that you generated

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with entropy, which allows you to enforce your exclusive control of the desk, you know, of what

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ends up happening, if anything ends up happening to those things. It's actually a more powerful

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form of ownership because you may own a ball, but I can come with a screwdriver and, you know,

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and damage it. And now you own a damaged ball. So your ownership of it was still constrained by my

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ability to damage it. I can't, I can't physically damage your Bitcoin. And, you know, unless I roll

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back the chain and I need so much power to do that, it's much more than a screwdriver. It's more power.

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You know, if your blocks are a thousand, if your coins are a thousand blocks old, like I need more

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power than the human race is capable of generating, like to try to overcome the race and unspend on,

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you know, unreceive your coins if I was the one who sent them to you. So it's like, it's more

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powerful form of ownership than has ever existed. And it is more powerful because it's more than

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just you holding something in the physical realm with your hands or putting a box around it. It's

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encased by a cumulative proof of work, a cumulative expenditure of energy. So it's the most powerful

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form of ownership we've ever seen. It's unusual, and it's one of a kind. So it adds to the definition

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of ownership at the concept.

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We don't need a new concept, I don't think.

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I think it is the concept of ownership,

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but it's maintained and exercised in a different manner.

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Yeah, I would agree to that.

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It's close enough to the old definitions of ownership

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to actually call it ownership,

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because you can act as if you own.

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And this is also why I find it so overwhelmingly retarded

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to claim that you can own other data in Bitcoin,

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like owning a DIGPIC, JPEG,

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or whatever token that is supposedly attached to Satoshi

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akin to owning a star in the Andromeda galaxy.

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I mean, you can claim that you own it,

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but you have the same ability to change it

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or move it as anyone else on Earth.

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Once it's inscribed on the Bitcoin blockchain,

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you can't move it and you can't modify it on the chain.

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Everyone else can see it.

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And everyone else can see it and everyone else can copy and everyone else can modify their copies of it.

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So your ownership doesn't give you any control over this thing that everybody else in the universe doesn't already have as well.

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And so, you know, that is a destruction of the concept of ownership.

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Like if you say I own something, but everyone, but I can't do anything with it that some complete stranger can't can do with it as well.

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Now you've destroyed the concept of ownership because ownership really does come down to this definitional thing of ownership of a thing means you have exclusive control over it and its use.

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And if it's public information on a public data store, then it's not yours.

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There's no concept of ownership.

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And even Casey, who the creator of inscription says, well, only if we pretend, i.e. lie, you know, detach ourselves from reality, pretend like not only if not in reality, do we think that we own this thing because we're following the trace of a chain of signatures, then we can say we own it.

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But look, if there's a beautiful image and I want to display it on the wall behind me that's inscribed on the Bitcoin blockchain, there's no way its alleged owner can prevent me from doing that.

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If I want to modify it, there's no way he can prevent me from doing that.

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If I want to make copies and sell them, there's no way he can prevent me from doing that.

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Unless he invokes the copyright law, but he's not relying on the fact that it's on the blockchain then.

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He's relying on copyright law and the blockchain has no relevance to it whatsoever.

230
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So this concept of ownership, it's an important point that you're making here. What is secret is in a sense owned because only I can control it and have it.

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And cryptography gives us this remarkable capability of not disclosing the secret, but proving that we know the secret.

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I can prove I have a private key by signing something and sharing the public key.

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And that's what allows this new concept of ownership to exist.

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And it was historically only used to prove identity and authenticity.

235
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But now in Bitcoin, because we have this property on the chain, which is the Bitcoins,

236
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we suddenly have ownership of information, so long as we understand how to retain our ownership of it.

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Yeah, I'm going to go on a bit of a rant here because I want to end up at a point which is that we have to get there in mysterious ways.

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Because just before this pod, we decided that the core versus not debate is getting a bit tiresome and that the deeper meta debate is really more interesting, especially from a philosophical perspective.

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And I absolutely love talking to you, especially you about these things, because I think we have such similar mindsets here.

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And I'd like to find where we differ in our definitions and such.

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00:20:18,726 --> 00:20:23,866
So what we've been talking about up to this point reminds me of two things.

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One is Gigi's The Map is Not the Territory article, if you remember that, where he explains why Bitcoin is the first time that the map actually defines the territory.

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Yes. So we define what reality is by the map we draw of it. That is what the time chain is.

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And it also reminds me of this chapter from everything divided by 21 million,

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Alchemy, which is about element zero, an idea I stole from Jörg Hamersdorf, which is a very bright

246
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guy. And the basic concept there is that the information about the asset is the asset. This

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is what makes bitcoin so unique so so i think it all has to do with the sacredness of the satoshi

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this is what makes the satoshi so insanely special because there's nothing like it and there never

249
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will be they cannot be by definition because um um uniqueness is it's very it's in in in its very

250
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core, pun intended. So I love hearing you use the word sacred.

251
00:21:32,626 --> 00:21:42,406
Yeah, I use it unironically to me that the Satoshi is one of the only things on planet Earth that are

252
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actually sacred to me. I can't find a better word for it.

253
00:21:46,606 --> 00:21:49,846
Right. And these words all have down to earth meanings.

254
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They do. Even if they're just in the sense of an ideal that is never realized. But I think Bitcoin realizes certain ideals that we have had for forever in the real world. It makes the ideal property real. The ideal scarcity real. We've had things that are scarce, but not fixed in supply. Well, now we have something that's scarce and fixed in supply. So it's knowably scarce.

255
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yeah and also divisible definition right it it takes you to a nearly platonic form of scarcity

256
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right like that there is perfect and we're seeing things from the platonic realm

257
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from plato's cave or as they really are you know which we didn't think could exist so we get into

258
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a lot of really philosophical intellectual absolutely logical stuff hey there everyone

259
00:22:44,826 --> 00:22:56,006
Just wanted to remind you that if you want any of my books or the book I wrote together with Luke, Bitcoin, the inverse of clown world, you can go to BitcoinInfinity.com and you'll find it all there.

260
00:22:56,126 --> 00:22:57,666
They're also available on Amazon.

261
00:22:58,046 --> 00:23:12,226
And this week, in honor of Black Friday, which would really be called Orange Friday, we are dropping all of our prices for the foreseeable future to 15 euros per paperback book and 21 euros for hardcovers.

262
00:23:12,226 --> 00:23:17,546
You can also listen to us talk about the books on our other show, the Bitcoin Infinity Academy.

263
00:23:18,086 --> 00:23:20,466
Right now we're doing Bitcoin Independence Reimagined.

264
00:23:20,726 --> 00:23:21,666
Lots of fun.

265
00:23:21,986 --> 00:23:26,326
So go to BitcoinInfinity.com, buy some books and brush your teeth.

266
00:23:26,846 --> 00:23:30,966
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267
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269
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270
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271
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272
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273
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274
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275
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276
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277
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278
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279
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280
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281
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Go to bitmult.sv to find out more.

282
00:24:29,706 --> 00:24:30,386
And brush your teeth.

283
00:24:30,466 --> 00:24:33,246
I want to get to the question at the end of this.

284
00:24:33,246 --> 00:24:41,346
So like, I'm going to go on another tangent too, since you mentioned the word sacred.

285
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Uh, I also feel blessed to have this conversation with you to spend the, to have spent the last couple of days in Lugano doing amazing things with amazing people.

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Like, uh, I can't find a better word for it.

287
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I truly feel blessed and I truly view the Satoshi as sacred.

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Right.

289
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And this is coming from a very skeptical mind.

290
00:25:02,826 --> 00:25:15,306
So so but where I was getting at with the meta debate is like I had to think about it myself, like what what hill is worth dying on here and for what reason?

291
00:25:15,306 --> 00:25:29,506
And I think the the people have got their priorities a bit wrong here because I think the the meta debate is that first of all, everyone should be happy that this is happening in Bitcoin, that there is a controversy.

292
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and that people are not agreeing and that people are reacting and acting and doing stuff to protect

293
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bitcoin regardless of what side you are on the in the debate like everyone should be happy that

294
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something is going on and that people are taking this seriously uh the the other one is exactly

295
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what we were talking about about there's no ability to all actually own an nft and it's it's

296
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It's all bullshit.

297
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I think that that hill for me is I love dying on that hill, like just explaining to people

298
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why shit coins are shit.

299
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If we do that, if we can rid the world of gullible morons that fall for these scammers

300
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projects, then then we won because there will be no more ordinals because there's no one

301
00:26:16,466 --> 00:26:17,746
to sell them to anymore.

302
00:26:17,746 --> 00:26:21,426
So that's like the most important battle in my mind.

303
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And then there's the decentralization of mining.

304
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And in my mind, like Datum from Ocean is like the real groundbreaking innovation.

305
00:26:32,846 --> 00:26:37,446
And that's more important than not even.

306
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I think that decentralizing mining again is...

307
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And now, of course, we're probably a bit behind here because now they're proposing soft forks and stuff.

308
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But let's not go into that.

309
00:26:50,706 --> 00:26:57,286
but more the meta debates like in your mind what's the what's the most important hill to die on here

310
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uh and anywhere really in yeah debates about these are all good things to fight for but

311
00:27:03,486 --> 00:27:10,146
let's let's start with this discussion around you said people should be happy that uh there's a

312
00:27:10,146 --> 00:27:16,246
dispute uh in bitcoin and happy is maybe not exactly the right you know we're we're going

313
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and they pick on words a lot, I think, you and I.

314
00:27:19,706 --> 00:27:22,026
People, you know, should welcome...

315
00:27:22,026 --> 00:27:23,286
We have nothing else to do.

316
00:27:23,466 --> 00:27:25,926
Yeah, you know, why are people unhappy?

317
00:27:26,166 --> 00:27:28,806
Like, people don't like to see other people in disagreement,

318
00:27:29,746 --> 00:27:33,226
partly because they're afraid it will lead to some bad outcome,

319
00:27:33,226 --> 00:27:35,286
like violence between the two people arguing,

320
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or a breakdown of a system, you know,

321
00:27:39,226 --> 00:27:53,832
that they were hoping was already done and baked and you know an uncontroversial So I can understand why some people are unhappy about it But then when you take the context of where we are

322
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when Bitcoin is only 16 years old,

323
00:27:55,651 --> 00:27:58,812
it's not widely accepted by everyone in the world as money.

324
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It has a lot of discovery to do,

325
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which also then bleeds into the other two discussions

326
00:28:05,871 --> 00:28:07,812
that we want to have.

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But if we try to remain focused on the fact that we need to embrace and go through the process of controversy, right?

328
00:28:17,671 --> 00:28:18,812
We shouldn't evade controversy.

329
00:28:19,631 --> 00:28:29,992
We shouldn't turn our eyes away and say, oh, there's a controversy about data storage on Bitcoin or the governance of core or how the developers ought to behave.

330
00:28:30,292 --> 00:28:37,191
Let's pretend it doesn't exist or let's cover it up because that might disincline new people from coming into Bitcoin.

331
00:28:37,191 --> 00:28:47,371
And it's like, no, if we if we avert our eyes from it, if we evade the confrontation of it, then if it's a problem, it festers.

332
00:28:47,371 --> 00:28:51,332
Right. And it can metastasize into something bigger.

333
00:28:51,471 --> 00:28:55,992
And if it metastasizes into something bigger, when Bitcoin is bigger, it presents a bigger risk.

334
00:28:56,012 --> 00:29:03,631
So let's get let's get through our controversies, our disagreements, however we get through them sooner rather than later.

335
00:29:03,631 --> 00:29:15,252
Let's confront them. Let's not be shy about calling what we see as wrong or stupid or short-term thinking by those terms. And then let's reason about it.

336
00:29:15,252 --> 00:29:23,231
So the biggest frustration for me in this discussion is that it's not a dialogue a lot of the time.

337
00:29:23,351 --> 00:29:26,772
It's a debate, and it's not a debate fought on rational merit.

338
00:29:26,951 --> 00:29:36,931
It's a debate on who is the most insulting of the other person, who can score, you know, what are the points that they call in political debate?

339
00:29:36,931 --> 00:29:46,371
I forget what they're called, but like, you know, who can get a jab in here and there rather than how do we work towards what the realistic outcome is?

340
00:29:46,451 --> 00:29:54,092
A lot of insincere points, a lot of, you know, attempting to score points rather than make rational and valid points is part of the debate.

341
00:29:54,092 --> 00:30:15,911
But I think I welcome that too, because I think it then ultimately demonstrates that the people who are, make one-liner posts and think that that's a victory or who claim that another side is stupid when, in fact, the other side has a lot of merit and intelligence behind its point, are ultimately going to be shown to be wrong.

342
00:30:15,911 --> 00:30:33,431
And then they have to confront the ego issue here, which is, I was wrong. Am I going to admit that I was wrong or am I, I was wrong and I'm going to dig my heels in and pretend that I was right and, you know, and play another card towards this losing hand of being metaphysically wrong.

343
00:30:33,431 --> 00:30:38,252
So I think we've got this incredible chemistry going on right now.

344
00:30:38,391 --> 00:30:40,272
And by that, I don't mean everyone's getting along.

345
00:30:40,772 --> 00:30:43,931
I mean, people are challenged every day to say, was I right?

346
00:30:43,992 --> 00:30:44,431
Was I wrong?

347
00:30:44,592 --> 00:30:48,252
Like, you know, everybody knows, or, you know, everybody should know.

348
00:30:48,371 --> 00:30:57,691
You and I both have been leaning on the knots side in terms of the decision of what node to run for, maybe possibly for different reasons.

349
00:30:59,391 --> 00:31:01,931
But where I was going with this.

350
00:31:01,931 --> 00:31:31,911
Because for me, everything I'm doing, I'm trying to have a rationale behind that I can explain that's not an emotional, irrational point. And I'm trying to get at something. And for the people who've taken numerous victory laps prematurely on the other side, telling me, when are you going to admit that you were wrong about this, that, the other, when some new piece of news comes up and they think that it's the end of the discussion because it was mildly incorrect.

351
00:31:31,931 --> 00:31:40,691
or embarrassing, but not core to the fundamental discussion is, um, is, you know, it's something

352
00:31:40,691 --> 00:31:45,272
that I try not to rub in people's faces, but I hope that they're self-aware enough to say,

353
00:31:45,312 --> 00:31:49,532
you know, if you leaped to a conclusion that said that this was, that this was over, that

354
00:31:49,532 --> 00:31:54,971
that could be done, that this is, that, you know, this debate is over, um, you're, you

355
00:31:54,971 --> 00:32:01,552
were mistaken and you should do a post-mortem on what your mistake was, or maybe you knew

356
00:32:01,552 --> 00:32:04,911
you were mistaken in the first place, but you were trying to score a point by saying the argument is

357
00:32:04,911 --> 00:32:10,471
over. I'm walking away. I'm done from it. Like I win, you lose, right? Like, you know, you don't

358
00:32:10,471 --> 00:32:16,111
really win in reality just by saying I win, you lose and walking away. Sometimes if you have won,

359
00:32:16,231 --> 00:32:21,871
there's no point in having the debate with someone who's lost, but there's a debate going on here

360
00:32:21,871 --> 00:32:27,012
and there's actions being taken by network participants that demonstrate provably that

361
00:32:27,012 --> 00:32:30,812
there's a debate that's still going on here. Sorry for the long-winded answer.

362
00:32:30,812 --> 00:32:47,752
No, no, it's fantastic. You said a profound thing to me in Madeira, I remember, and that is like the block size wars. We were all happy about that we won the block size wars, but you pointed out that we won the battle, but the war is still ongoing.

363
00:32:47,752 --> 00:32:55,312
Like it's proof that Bitcoin could be resilient once, but it's not proof that it will be forever.

364
00:32:56,211 --> 00:33:07,512
Like, and it was resilient because people did care and because people did the necessary things to protect the network from being taken over by bad actors.

365
00:33:07,671 --> 00:33:12,471
But it's by no means a proof that it will do that forever.

366
00:33:13,651 --> 00:33:17,072
Arguably, it goes more resilient the more people that are connected to it.

367
00:33:17,072 --> 00:33:21,871
But only if those people are actually doing their homework and caring enough about the thing.

368
00:33:22,492 --> 00:33:25,332
And that's not just running your own node.

369
00:33:25,471 --> 00:33:27,671
That's like all the other stuff as well.

370
00:33:27,671 --> 00:33:38,231
I genuinely believe that us having chats like this and talking about these things and being present on Twitter and stuff has a huge influence on how people act.

371
00:33:39,191 --> 00:33:41,992
It's not just economic nodes to me.

372
00:33:41,992 --> 00:33:47,812
I like, um, but taking the humble pill, if, if you're wrong about something is super important.

373
00:33:47,812 --> 00:33:53,992
I can, I can say that I was probably like a little too happy about taproot too quickly.

374
00:33:54,471 --> 00:33:59,772
And I think we may, we should have, we should have been more careful and not, I, it was sort

375
00:33:59,772 --> 00:34:01,131
of a group psychology thing.

376
00:34:01,131 --> 00:34:05,191
Like everyone wanted segwit and we got segwit and we won the block size wars.

377
00:34:05,411 --> 00:34:05,691
Yes.

378
00:34:05,691 --> 00:34:08,231
And then everyone was like, everyone wants taproot.

379
00:34:08,231 --> 00:34:08,671
It's done.

380
00:34:08,671 --> 00:34:14,651
let's fucking go and we just did the thing right and maybe we should have thought it through a bit

381
00:34:14,651 --> 00:34:22,892
more like was it worth it yeah i mean i i think these things are super super complicated because

382
00:34:22,892 --> 00:34:30,132
in hindsight you can't you can't objectively know if a change was good or bad like not even the seg

383
00:34:30,132 --> 00:34:35,372
with the witness discount it didn't happen what it probably wouldn't have been the end of the world

384
00:34:35,372 --> 00:34:40,632
Well, if the two times that hard work happened, that would have been bad because that would have been corporate control.

385
00:34:40,731 --> 00:34:45,651
But we could have just fought for nothing, for no changes, and had the same outcome.

386
00:34:46,412 --> 00:34:51,331
And today's controversy around core versus knots would not be the same controversy.

387
00:34:51,711 --> 00:34:51,912
No.

388
00:34:51,992 --> 00:34:53,931
There wouldn't be the taproot annex.

389
00:34:53,931 --> 00:34:59,931
And as much as I like that the Lightning Network exists and the people are working on it,

390
00:34:59,931 --> 00:35:06,171
it wouldn't have been that bad if we went if it took another decade like would that really be

391
00:35:06,171 --> 00:35:10,691
because i think we would have had a slightly more vulnerable we would have still had the

392
00:35:10,691 --> 00:35:14,791
lightning network but we would have had to have different mechanisms which were more cumbersome

393
00:35:14,791 --> 00:35:20,831
to protect us from the malleability bug which is too technical to get into but i think i think i

394
00:35:20,831 --> 00:35:26,112
think one of the things we find is if we give more time we can find workarounds with that aren't easy

395
00:35:26,112 --> 00:35:29,231
but are still thorough.

396
00:35:29,671 --> 00:35:33,451
And making changes to make things easy

397
00:35:33,451 --> 00:35:35,852
also opens up attack surface.

398
00:35:36,451 --> 00:35:39,992
There's the big lesson from SegWit and Tap.

399
00:35:40,711 --> 00:35:45,331
And indeed, SegWit was so driven by the enthusiasm

400
00:35:45,331 --> 00:35:47,632
and demand for the Lightning Network

401
00:35:47,632 --> 00:35:49,471
because it sounded like such a great solution.

402
00:35:49,791 --> 00:35:52,032
I don't think anyone realized how long it would take to build

403
00:35:52,032 --> 00:35:55,852
and what all the hurdles along the way were.

404
00:35:56,112 --> 00:36:02,632
But when Taproot came, it was, we weren't really sure what the supposed benefits would be, right?

405
00:36:02,671 --> 00:36:06,592
Like it was very technical benefit claims.

406
00:36:07,151 --> 00:36:09,451
Not, there wasn't like a white paper around.

407
00:36:09,691 --> 00:36:11,951
Here's the amazing thing you can build with Taproot.

408
00:36:12,032 --> 00:36:16,932
With Segwit, it was like, you can, we want Segwit so we can build the Lightning Network.

409
00:36:17,211 --> 00:36:18,751
And here's the white paper on the Lightning Network.

410
00:36:18,912 --> 00:36:19,771
And some speech vulnerability.

411
00:36:20,271 --> 00:36:22,432
We didn't have that with Taproot.

412
00:36:22,432 --> 00:36:25,751
And so it got activated because we worshipped.

413
00:36:25,751 --> 00:36:27,951
I'm going to use another word that I think you might have.

414
00:36:28,331 --> 00:36:30,572
We worship the lead developers.

415
00:36:30,951 --> 00:36:36,951
We worship these people who had protected, preserved, advanced Bitcoin for some time.

416
00:36:37,231 --> 00:36:43,971
And so we wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt rather than don't trust.

417
00:36:44,231 --> 00:36:45,331
We trusted them, right?

418
00:36:45,392 --> 00:36:48,492
It wasn't don't trust, verify everything left, right, and center.

419
00:36:48,612 --> 00:36:52,492
It was a lot of, okay, these guys know what they're talking about.

420
00:36:53,331 --> 00:36:54,231
They're benevolent.

421
00:36:54,231 --> 00:36:57,552
let's let them have the next thing.

422
00:36:57,631 --> 00:36:58,791
We're bound to benefit from it,

423
00:36:58,831 --> 00:37:00,811
even though we're not exactly sure what the benefits are.

424
00:37:01,291 --> 00:37:05,592
Right. And so I think now those chickens have come home to roost.

425
00:37:05,691 --> 00:37:08,932
It turned out people aren't really doing much with the alleged benefit,

426
00:37:08,932 --> 00:37:13,412
but there was an exploit available with, you know,

427
00:37:13,552 --> 00:37:15,552
you can look at it in whatever way you want,

428
00:37:15,631 --> 00:37:19,291
but now we've got these inscriptions, which are, which have been a problem.

429
00:37:19,892 --> 00:37:23,951
Maybe it was taken care of by the fact that there's a block size limit and

430
00:37:23,951 --> 00:37:27,811
those things got expensive and the free market demonstrated that they weren't very valuable.

431
00:37:28,331 --> 00:37:36,471
So maybe no big deal. But we've got this acquiescence issue of like Bitcoin can be used,

432
00:37:36,532 --> 00:37:40,532
however it can be used, and we shouldn't try to prevent it from being used, however,

433
00:37:41,012 --> 00:37:46,552
which is at the core, I have to use that word ironically, at the core of the debate between

434
00:37:46,552 --> 00:37:54,432
core and nots right uh that you know do we want to restrict its uses from everything that it can

435
00:37:54,432 --> 00:38:03,592
do to the more strictly monetary uses sorry if these are long long answers no no but i agree

436
00:38:03,592 --> 00:38:09,211
with every point and this is where this is where this changing of definitions debate comes in

437
00:38:09,211 --> 00:38:16,112
because they have been like slowly but surely it's changing some of the definitions of words

438
00:38:16,112 --> 00:38:23,311
like what what off return is for and and and such right right in the documentation around it

439
00:38:23,311 --> 00:38:27,512
yeah when you change that when when you're in charge of the dictionary and you change the

440
00:38:27,512 --> 00:38:35,552
definitions of words as as a metaphor here uh you're you're trying to police the use of the

441
00:38:35,552 --> 00:38:41,251
use of words and and here where the you know the it's it's the opposite of policing and it's more

442
00:38:41,251 --> 00:38:45,171
Well, you're not policing, you know, what was expected to be policed.

443
00:38:45,171 --> 00:38:51,392
No, the meme is like, you have a broken rib, but we fixed it in Photoshop.

444
00:38:51,711 --> 00:39:01,771
It's very reminiscent of the definition of vaccine being changed in Oxford dictionary for the COVID vaccine to be legit.

445
00:39:01,771 --> 00:39:07,392
like right uh which is this has come up like three or four times in our conversation already

446
00:39:07,392 --> 00:39:13,892
which is around ownership around uh the proper use of bitcoin around what a bug is like

447
00:39:13,892 --> 00:39:21,271
we're we find ourselves constantly especially in bitcoin and i think because it's a new concept

448
00:39:21,271 --> 00:39:25,671
that's complicated and unprecedented and does many things that nothing before it is done

449
00:39:25,671 --> 00:39:31,471
struggling to understand it and struggling to define it like all the words we use the

450
00:39:31,471 --> 00:39:38,291
coins aren't coins, right? They're not physical minted things. They're a physical, ideological,

451
00:39:38,711 --> 00:39:48,372
duplicated entries, right? Like everything in the digital realm, we try to give it terms that come

452
00:39:48,372 --> 00:39:53,831
from the realm which we come from, which is the meat space realm. And always those metaphors,

453
00:39:53,831 --> 00:40:00,831
and so it's a metaphor, and always the metaphor is broken in some sense. It's a physical,

454
00:40:00,831 --> 00:40:07,251
digital translation layer, but it's, that breaks other things about the metaphysics of the concept.

455
00:40:07,432 --> 00:40:12,352
So, you know, when we talk about digital something, it's always different from the physical thing that

456
00:40:12,352 --> 00:40:18,251
we use the same thing term for a digital coin that not behave the way a physical coin behaves.

457
00:40:18,251 --> 00:40:28,131
And Gigi's article, Bitcoin is Time, talks about this, this first ever unification of the notion of a

458
00:40:28,131 --> 00:40:32,631
token and ledger as being one in the same.

459
00:40:32,631 --> 00:40:34,971
So for people who haven't read Bitcoin is time,

460
00:40:34,971 --> 00:40:40,372
it's the best article there is on Bitcoin coming from this year at least,

461
00:40:40,372 --> 00:40:42,131
and speaking to another writer.

462
00:40:42,131 --> 00:40:43,131
It's just like that.

463
00:40:43,131 --> 00:40:47,331
There's a penny that drops when you read that for the first time.

464
00:40:47,331 --> 00:40:50,631
And the other one I recommend, though, where the map is not the territory.

465
00:40:50,631 --> 00:40:52,631
This is not a pipe or whatever.

466
00:40:52,631 --> 00:40:55,131
But yeah, profound work.

467
00:40:55,131 --> 00:41:08,131
Yeah, so do you think, long and complicated question maybe, but do you think, not so long, but slightly, a lot of nuance.

468
00:41:08,131 --> 00:41:16,072
a lot of these developer types and the people working in core allegedly are like more more of

469
00:41:16,072 --> 00:41:22,271
this san francisco liberal type like more left-wingy and thus some people say that that

470
00:41:22,271 --> 00:41:27,731
automatically means more nihilistic and less principled and that's why that's if you're more

471
00:41:27,731 --> 00:41:34,592
like open to that you're somehow more open to changing definitions of things if you are

472
00:41:34,592 --> 00:41:47,057
like inclined to do that politically Do you think this is a real thing or is that just like scaremongering well it makes me think at the uh canadian bitcoin conference i had a long

473
00:41:47,057 --> 00:41:54,157
talk um very civilized you know so but it was a debate it was a disagreement it was a argument

474
00:41:54,157 --> 00:41:58,617
whatever you want to call it but it was very civilized with someone on the on the other side

475
00:41:58,617 --> 00:42:09,277
and these conceptual conflicts kept coming up and it left me thinking and I'm very loathe to

476
00:42:09,277 --> 00:42:15,397
generalize like a whole group of people anyone who's in favor of the opera term being blown out

477
00:42:15,397 --> 00:42:23,557
must be a nihilistic Marxist communist right I'm very careful about this and I haven't had a chance

478
00:42:23,557 --> 00:42:28,117
to meet many of them face to face but one of the things that I found in this rather lengthy

479
00:42:28,117 --> 00:42:35,137
conversation is that there is like when i say philosophical there's a philosophical disagreement

480
00:42:35,137 --> 00:42:42,717
around the idea that things are built with a purpose um and yes so like bitcoin was built

481
00:42:42,717 --> 00:42:47,777
with this purpose to be money and the debate that came from the other side i'm trying to do it

482
00:42:47,777 --> 00:42:54,157
complete justice was bitcoin is a set of rules and the set of rules allow you to put inscriptions

483
00:42:54,157 --> 00:42:57,017
into the taproot thing.

484
00:42:57,097 --> 00:42:59,017
Someone came up with a way to do this.

485
00:42:59,397 --> 00:43:02,917
And so you have to accept that that's the way that it is.

486
00:43:03,257 --> 00:43:06,137
Like there's nothing you can do about it.

487
00:43:06,137 --> 00:43:10,057
And to me, it's like, well, if there was a bug

488
00:43:10,057 --> 00:43:13,177
that made 42 million coins or something,

489
00:43:13,577 --> 00:43:14,797
we would call that a bug.

490
00:43:14,897 --> 00:43:17,277
We would say that's against the purpose of Bitcoin.

491
00:43:17,997 --> 00:43:19,917
And so we would fix the bug.

492
00:43:20,037 --> 00:43:22,417
And in fact, if you say a thing is what it does,

493
00:43:22,417 --> 00:43:26,557
which I've heard, you know, a thing's purpose is whatever it does, which I've heard others in that

494
00:43:26,557 --> 00:43:34,017
camp say, I think that is an attempt to destroy the concept of purpose. Because if you say whatever

495
00:43:34,017 --> 00:43:40,637
a thing is, whatever a thing does, that's its purpose, then you can't ever say, well, this,

496
00:43:40,797 --> 00:43:46,037
this thing that you built does not fit for purpose. I hired you to build a house and you dug a hole in

497
00:43:46,037 --> 00:43:52,457
the ground. And it's like, well, I, you know, that it's a hole in the ground. Its purpose is to be a

498
00:43:52,457 --> 00:43:57,197
hole in the ground, not to be a house for you. I was like, well, I know I wanted shelter to cover

499
00:43:57,197 --> 00:44:02,297
me and protect me from the rain. And you're just saying that whatever the thing is, is its purpose.

500
00:44:02,297 --> 00:44:10,017
So it's, it's not true. And like things are, we as human beings are purposeful beings. We can set

501
00:44:10,017 --> 00:44:16,037
our mind to a purpose and build something that attempts to fulfill that purpose, to meet that

502
00:44:16,037 --> 00:44:20,817
need. And if it fails to do it, we haven't built it according to the purpose. If it's close to it,

503
00:44:20,837 --> 00:44:25,057
we can maybe tweak it and fix it so that it better fits the purpose. If it should the purpose,

504
00:44:25,137 --> 00:44:30,277
we can then look at it and say, what other purpose might it fit? But we can't say that

505
00:44:30,277 --> 00:44:38,897
nothing has any designated purpose that comes from our expectations of it, our contemplation of it.

506
00:44:38,897 --> 00:44:44,297
And so I think that that's a flaw that I can't say I've heard everyone on the opposite side

507
00:44:44,297 --> 00:44:52,837
repeated, but it seems to be a flaw in conceptualization of what Bitcoin is that often gets invoked.

508
00:44:53,017 --> 00:44:58,177
And I think part of the word game, the concept game that we're playing to an even greater extent

509
00:44:58,177 --> 00:45:03,177
is like, you have some people that say, oh, I hate spam, but I can't define it. Some people say,

510
00:45:03,177 --> 00:45:09,757
there's no such thing as spam, right? There's no, there, it is what it, it is what it is,

511
00:45:09,757 --> 00:45:20,637
or there is spam and you can't stop it. And so we just end up with a multi-pronged, uh, set of

512
00:45:20,637 --> 00:45:26,817
invalid arguments, right? Like if you can't, and I think this is really important. If you can't

513
00:45:26,817 --> 00:45:30,897
define every single instance of a thing, because there are edge cases, it doesn't mean the thing

514
00:45:30,897 --> 00:45:36,857
doesn't exist. Like for example, chairs exist, right? We know what chairs are, but I can make

515
00:45:36,857 --> 00:45:40,917
an edge case of something that's both, that can be both a chair and a table. You know, it's this

516
00:45:40,917 --> 00:45:45,997
man-made flat surface that's low, but expands and you, you know, you can choose to sit on it,

517
00:45:46,037 --> 00:45:50,337
but you can also place something on it. So it's an edge case definition of a chair, but you can't

518
00:45:50,337 --> 00:45:54,957
then say, bring that and say, so is this a chair or isn't it? I don't know. I guess chairs don't

519
00:45:54,957 --> 00:46:01,717
exist, which is, which is the, the edge case of some of these, uh, you know, if I do something

520
00:46:01,717 --> 00:46:06,817
that's a lightning network anchor, anchor inscription, and it's used as a justice transaction

521
00:46:06,817 --> 00:46:12,257
for this and that, is that spam? It's like, well, it may or may not be, but the JPEG is a spam,

522
00:46:12,457 --> 00:46:17,937
right? Like don't, don't try to look at the edge case and deny the existence of the undisputable

523
00:46:17,937 --> 00:46:23,737
case, which, well, of which there's millions, you know, like, and then, and then pretend that they

524
00:46:23,737 --> 00:46:29,637
don't exist so the and this to me is where what i was talking about before it's like rational

525
00:46:29,637 --> 00:46:38,017
argumentation requires rational conduct not these gotcha escape hatches you know oh i i said i don't

526
00:46:38,017 --> 00:46:43,417
know what spam is so we can't argue whether you know whether something is spam or isn't because

527
00:46:43,417 --> 00:46:48,997
i just keep keep playing dumb right like when you're in the goalposts right yeah maybe that's

528
00:46:48,997 --> 00:46:53,397
moving the goalposts maybe it's called playing dumb maybe they're they're one in the same uh

529
00:46:53,397 --> 00:46:58,677
sort of thing. But ultimately, you have to move forward. If you can't engage in rational

530
00:46:58,677 --> 00:47:02,737
dialogue with somebody and you make a valid point and they don't acknowledge it, not because

531
00:47:02,737 --> 00:47:10,357
it's wrong, but because they don't want it to be right, now you're dealing with someone who's

532
00:47:10,357 --> 00:47:17,197
evading the truth. And so you're not in an honest debate. And this is where the term bad actor

533
00:47:17,197 --> 00:47:23,157
kind of arises and has one of its two meanings, which is if you're not an honest debater,

534
00:47:23,397 --> 00:47:30,517
you're not really there to help resolve the issue in the best interest of Bitcoin.

535
00:47:31,177 --> 00:47:32,217
You're there to win an argument.

536
00:47:32,397 --> 00:47:33,997
You may have ulterior motives.

537
00:47:33,997 --> 00:47:40,337
And I think a lot of the questioning of what's going on here is the questioning of,

538
00:47:40,497 --> 00:47:43,097
like, if there's no good explanation for the change that we're confronting,

539
00:47:43,697 --> 00:47:45,817
maybe there's a bad explanation.

540
00:47:46,477 --> 00:47:48,797
But, you know, the sure as heck isn't a good one.

541
00:47:48,797 --> 00:47:56,977
I met a lot of people on the core side in Prague at the Trezor event.

542
00:47:56,977 --> 00:48:00,377
In Europe, there's a lot of technical Bitcoiners.

543
00:48:00,377 --> 00:48:02,117
Right, makes sense.

544
00:48:02,117 --> 00:48:15,157
And they have a point that their main point was sort of like that it's useless to run these filters and stuff

545
00:48:15,157 --> 00:48:19,397
because at the end of the day, these things are going to get relayed anyway.

546
00:48:19,957 --> 00:48:24,137
But where I philosophically disagree with them is like,

547
00:48:24,377 --> 00:48:26,557
yeah, but I don't really care.

548
00:48:26,877 --> 00:48:30,737
I'm not going to help facilitate this.

549
00:48:31,257 --> 00:48:35,977
And regardless of the success of my not helping facilitating this,

550
00:48:36,597 --> 00:48:38,577
I'm still not going to help facilitate it.

551
00:48:38,577 --> 00:48:42,917
Because it's only true because everyone thinks that way,

552
00:48:43,157 --> 00:48:45,077
that it's pointless to resist.

553
00:48:45,157 --> 00:48:48,157
But yeah, it's true.

554
00:48:48,157 --> 00:48:55,257
You probably have to get to like 92% momentum in this for this to actually work.

555
00:48:55,797 --> 00:48:59,717
But the same is true for the new proposed defaults here.

556
00:48:59,897 --> 00:49:08,117
Like the 100k thing also has to get to at least 8% or 10% before it starts actually relaying this stuff.

557
00:49:08,557 --> 00:49:14,497
And yes, it's true that you could always bring a briefcase full of dollars to a miner and do that.

558
00:49:14,497 --> 00:49:22,297
Which is why I think that datum and decentralized mining is more important than this debate, because right now you can bypass it.

559
00:49:22,917 --> 00:49:28,177
But still, I think it's sort of a philosophical difference there.

560
00:49:28,357 --> 00:49:33,057
I view my node as the thing I'm using for this stuff.

561
00:49:33,457 --> 00:49:35,937
And what I do with it is none of your business.

562
00:49:36,057 --> 00:49:37,057
I don't have to agree.

563
00:49:37,977 --> 00:49:43,757
Well, just as a point of order, we're finding ourselves dipping into the core versus not specific debate, which we wanted to avoid.

564
00:49:43,757 --> 00:49:56,457
Right. So for me, the last point I'll make about this, and I'll try to make it really quick, is like my disappointment in the whole debate is it should have gotten much more quickly to a framing of.

565
00:49:57,177 --> 00:50:03,637
For years, we have relied on policy, which was effective because, as it turns out, it was a gentleman's agreement.

566
00:50:03,817 --> 00:50:10,377
People didn't route it, miners didn't mine it, and everyone abided by the policy, except for special one offs.

567
00:50:10,477 --> 00:50:12,877
But there were such a minority of the issues that it didn't happen.

568
00:50:12,877 --> 00:50:32,577
And then that broke. One, it broke because there was an exploit that policy didn't cover in the inscriptions. And two, then Libre Relay and other things and Mara Slipstream were breaking that agreement to enforce policy. They were like, look, we can violate policy.

569
00:50:32,577 --> 00:50:49,577
So the conversation should have been, now that policy is no longer enforceable, which elements of policy do we want enforced and how do we enforce them? Presumably through consensus rules because we can no longer rely on gentlemanly behavior to enforce policy.

570
00:50:49,577 --> 00:50:54,057
policy and we didn't have that conversation a bunch of people defaulted to well it doesn't

571
00:50:54,057 --> 00:50:58,237
work so those are no longer rules which is dangerous because there are policy rules that

572
00:50:58,237 --> 00:51:04,517
that are absolutely essential to the continued functioning of bitcoin and you know and now the

573
00:51:04,517 --> 00:51:09,757
and there are ones that are undesirable by many bitcoiners so we haven't been having the right

574
00:51:09,757 --> 00:51:14,917
debate for whatever reason then there's maybe some lessons to be learned there but that's that's my

575
00:51:14,917 --> 00:51:17,857
last on the Bitcoin core versus knots, I hope for this.

576
00:51:17,857 --> 00:51:19,777
Yeah, and I absolutely agree.

577
00:51:19,777 --> 00:51:30,757
I think it's that debate is not being had like Bitcoin is money, like the literal first

578
00:51:30,757 --> 00:51:33,877
row of the title of the white paper is big.

579
00:51:33,877 --> 00:51:36,157
You have to do zero on a cash system.

580
00:51:36,157 --> 00:51:36,677
Yes.

581
00:51:36,677 --> 00:51:42,677
So if it's not functioning as that, but as arbitrary data storage or whatever, then obviously

582
00:51:42,677 --> 00:51:48,137
something is wrong and sure I could agree to that maybe we're doing this the wrong way and something

583
00:51:48,137 --> 00:51:54,637
needs to change but but like the definition like the very purpose of the thing has not changed like

584
00:51:54,637 --> 00:52:00,417
you cannot fix the broken rib with an x-ray like then then you have to do something else like and

585
00:52:00,417 --> 00:52:06,917
and yeah I agree I missed that from the debate yeah anyway you know and again you end up with

586
00:52:06,917 --> 00:52:12,117
people saying you know oh you know you're citing the white paper do you remember that the bcashers

587
00:52:12,117 --> 00:52:18,197
cited the white paper this that the other it's like the distinction here is is really important

588
00:52:18,197 --> 00:52:23,777
like the b cachers were weren't saying that bitcoin itself wasn't cash it was the people

589
00:52:23,777 --> 00:52:28,277
weren't using it as cash and we intended a second layer not that bitcoin you know we didn't have the

590
00:52:28,277 --> 00:52:32,737
pro seg with camp saying bitcoin isn't cash and we shouldn't try to use it as money right like that

591
00:52:32,737 --> 00:52:41,157
so again we we end up with these very flawed arguments being used to defend keep the status

592
00:52:41,157 --> 00:52:51,077
quo or comply with tolerance, acceptance, defeatism over non-monetary use cases of Bitcoin

593
00:52:51,077 --> 00:52:56,517
being permitted. But there's a spectrum. I mean, there are the people who say, look, technically,

594
00:52:56,517 --> 00:53:01,257
you can't stop it. There's always some other way to get it in there. And so you might as well not

595
00:53:01,257 --> 00:53:08,697
resist it. And that, again, is an argument that can really be had. But let's move away from it,

596
00:53:08,697 --> 00:53:10,397
because people have heard this to death.

597
00:53:11,197 --> 00:53:14,237
And we want to talk about, at the very least,

598
00:53:15,197 --> 00:53:16,957
this is healthy for Bitcoin, right?

599
00:53:17,017 --> 00:53:19,277
Like this is, unless we disagree,

600
00:53:19,737 --> 00:53:21,877
this is important that Bitcoin go through this.

601
00:53:21,977 --> 00:53:23,697
It's important that it go through the growing pains.

602
00:53:23,797 --> 00:53:27,257
It's important that the users of Bitcoin

603
00:53:27,257 --> 00:53:31,277
have to fight for what they view Bitcoin to be.

604
00:53:31,577 --> 00:53:34,817
And it's important that when there is legitimate debate

605
00:53:34,817 --> 00:53:37,337
that it be had and that it end up being resolved

606
00:53:37,337 --> 00:53:39,437
without the destruction of Bitcoin.

607
00:53:39,837 --> 00:53:43,937
And I think that's one of the things that's really valuable.

608
00:53:43,937 --> 00:53:48,197
And for people who find this really uncomfortable

609
00:53:48,197 --> 00:53:50,197
to the point where they don't know

610
00:53:50,197 --> 00:53:51,537
whether they should own Bitcoin

611
00:53:51,537 --> 00:53:52,997
because it makes them so uneasy,

612
00:53:53,937 --> 00:53:56,877
there's really only two recommendations I would have.

613
00:53:57,037 --> 00:54:00,177
One is close your eyes and ignore the debate,

614
00:54:00,737 --> 00:54:02,657
you know, or two is sell your Bitcoin.

615
00:54:03,237 --> 00:54:05,337
Like, because this is going to be

616
00:54:05,337 --> 00:54:12,617
a recurring theme in Bitcoin. Like this isn't, we didn't win the war to, or we won a battle.

617
00:54:13,077 --> 00:54:18,837
The war to protect Bitcoin, just think what we're saying Bitcoin is. Bitcoin is money. It's

618
00:54:18,837 --> 00:54:22,977
potentially going to become all the money in the world or the most dominant form of money

619
00:54:22,977 --> 00:54:27,017
in the world. You think people aren't going to fight over that? You think tricksters and hucksters

620
00:54:27,017 --> 00:54:32,577
aren't going to try to separate you from your Bitcoin through any means necessary, any means

621
00:54:32,577 --> 00:54:37,897
possible, including undermining the protocol itself, the development, writing fake walled

622
00:54:37,897 --> 00:54:38,037
books.

623
00:54:38,237 --> 00:54:40,457
There's many, many attacks to come.

624
00:54:40,837 --> 00:54:42,817
It is the most valuable property in the world.

625
00:54:42,957 --> 00:54:43,957
It's a new form of property.

626
00:54:44,077 --> 00:54:44,917
It's not well understood.

627
00:54:45,517 --> 00:54:48,557
For the rest of your life, Bitcoin will be under attack.

628
00:54:49,137 --> 00:54:53,237
And as is your state, as is anything that's valuable, right?

629
00:54:53,317 --> 00:54:59,997
I think this was kind of the point that was not explicitly made, but in the undertones

630
00:54:59,997 --> 00:55:02,597
of Jason Lowery's thesis of software.

631
00:55:02,797 --> 00:55:06,937
It's like people try to get things from other people.

632
00:55:07,537 --> 00:55:10,837
And life tries to get things from other things in life.

633
00:55:11,397 --> 00:55:13,177
And the protection of it.

634
00:55:13,277 --> 00:55:16,497
So how we protect Bitcoin is a new frontier

635
00:55:16,497 --> 00:55:19,037
for us to fight on.

636
00:55:19,217 --> 00:55:22,717
And how we protect even Bitcoin's definition and purpose

637
00:55:22,717 --> 00:55:24,557
is a new frontier for us to fight on.

638
00:55:24,597 --> 00:55:26,957
But we have to fight on it and probably always will.

639
00:55:27,217 --> 00:55:29,617
Just like everything living has to always fight for its life.

640
00:55:29,997 --> 00:55:31,417
So yes, Bitcoin is alive.

641
00:55:32,837 --> 00:55:33,257
Thank you.

642
00:55:33,303 --> 00:55:37,543
I'd like to test out another metaphor that just popped into my head on you.

643
00:55:37,623 --> 00:55:44,943
So if the block size wars was like us winning the first Star Wars movie

644
00:55:44,943 --> 00:55:48,463
and we blew up the Death Star, like the big blocker Death Star, right?

645
00:55:49,063 --> 00:55:52,663
And this debate is sort of the return of the Jedi.

646
00:55:52,703 --> 00:55:55,623
The Death Star isn't ready built yet like this.

647
00:55:56,943 --> 00:56:02,303
The scaffolding around half a Death Star and we're about to win this battle too.

648
00:56:02,303 --> 00:56:12,583
But the real thing, but we should expect Disney remakes and crap, and we really have to avoid the Disney remake of Bitcoin.

649
00:56:12,763 --> 00:56:14,403
That would be the worst outcome ever.

650
00:56:15,923 --> 00:56:17,143
So that's your metaphor?

651
00:56:18,223 --> 00:56:24,143
I actually used the Star Wars metaphor just yesterday, I think, on one of my Bitcoin philosophy spaces.

652
00:56:25,163 --> 00:56:29,523
To wrap up, it had something to do with using force, right?

653
00:56:29,563 --> 00:56:30,523
For good or for easy.

654
00:56:30,523 --> 00:56:37,543
use the force. So there's something to the Star Wars, there's rebels, and there's the empire,

655
00:56:37,763 --> 00:56:43,863
right? And I was talking about it in the context of Bitcoin is a rising empire. It exists in many

656
00:56:43,863 --> 00:56:49,363
places. It has a currency. That's essentially all it has that's protected by force, right? The use

657
00:56:49,363 --> 00:56:57,183
of energy, the use of force is, you know, so when I say use the force for good rather than for evil,

658
00:56:57,183 --> 00:57:03,483
That's what the, this will take us to the mining debate that you want to have or the mining decentralization discussion.

659
00:57:04,043 --> 00:57:06,563
Decentralized mining is the light side of the force.

660
00:57:06,763 --> 00:57:08,763
Centralized mining is the dark side of the force.

661
00:57:08,983 --> 00:57:13,283
It's too much power for anyone to possess and they can abuse it.

662
00:57:14,883 --> 00:57:27,083
Yeah, so I think Star Wars provides a really interesting metaphor because we were talking about really the mythology of Bitcoin when this came up and how the story of Bitcoin's creation.

663
00:57:27,183 --> 00:57:33,383
and its origin story, everything that goes onto it is a big part of the value of Bitcoin in that

664
00:57:33,383 --> 00:57:39,723
how we as human beings often rely on storytelling to get themes and important ideas across. And,

665
00:57:39,723 --> 00:57:45,823
and, you know, Star Wars is the success that it is because it told a really powerful story of the

666
00:57:45,823 --> 00:57:50,563
little guys fighting the big guys. Well, that's, that is the Bitcoin story of the, you know,

667
00:57:50,563 --> 00:57:59,083
of those who are oppressed by those with power and control can come back and win with hope, a new hope.

668
00:57:59,923 --> 00:58:00,563
No, yeah, yeah.

669
00:58:00,843 --> 00:58:02,723
There's a lot of common themes between.

670
00:58:03,023 --> 00:58:03,483
Absolutely.

671
00:58:03,783 --> 00:58:06,803
And this goes, I mean, this goes so deep.

672
00:58:06,923 --> 00:58:11,663
That's also why the Matrix is a good metaphor, because it is a hero's journey story.

673
00:58:11,663 --> 00:58:17,643
Like Campbell's hero's journey story is all over Star Wars and the Matrix and all of these things.

674
00:58:17,643 --> 00:58:32,063
And I used a Star Wars metaphor in one of the older books. I don't remember which one of them, but where the Death Star is the establishment and most people and taxes and inflation and all of that. It's literally the empire.

675
00:58:32,063 --> 00:58:34,343
and the rebels are

676
00:58:34,343 --> 00:58:35,243
you know the rebels

677
00:58:35,243 --> 00:58:37,943
us we are the crypto anarchists

678
00:58:37,943 --> 00:58:40,343
and you know whatever they call it

679
00:58:40,343 --> 00:58:41,783
the ANCAPs

680
00:58:41,783 --> 00:58:44,283
and Bitcoin is the photon torpedoes

681
00:58:44,283 --> 00:58:46,163
going into the thermal exhaust

682
00:58:46,163 --> 00:58:47,903
vent in the Death Star

683
00:58:47,903 --> 00:58:49,663
that's what Bitcoin is

684
00:58:49,663 --> 00:58:51,423
it's going to blow the fuck up

685
00:58:51,423 --> 00:58:53,443
because now they can't do anything about us

686
00:58:53,443 --> 00:58:55,703
so that's

687
00:58:55,703 --> 00:58:57,363
the analogy I had a couple of years

688
00:58:57,363 --> 00:59:00,003
I think you can certainly have fun

689
00:59:00,003 --> 00:59:00,263
with it

690
00:59:00,263 --> 00:59:05,463
the bitcoins are the hackers. Luke Skywalker built these droids, you know, and he's, so he's a bit of

691
00:59:05,463 --> 00:59:11,963
a hacker as well, but it's, um, it's this big idea, right? That the little guy can defeat the

692
00:59:11,963 --> 00:59:19,883
overwhelming established empire, especially when he's on the side of good. Like this, this belief

693
00:59:19,883 --> 00:59:28,743
that good is victorious over evil has really powerful, uh, roots and it has rationality behind

694
00:59:28,743 --> 00:59:30,283
because the idea of evil is,

695
00:59:30,723 --> 00:59:32,843
evil is dependent on taking

696
00:59:32,843 --> 00:59:35,163
what is unearned from the good, right?

697
00:59:35,223 --> 00:59:36,463
It's like, well, you know,

698
00:59:36,963 --> 00:59:39,203
to use your labor, to use your productivity,

699
00:59:39,203 --> 00:59:43,443
it really just does come down to theft, taxation,

700
00:59:43,663 --> 00:59:45,183
all these kinds of, you know, murder.

701
00:59:46,183 --> 00:59:49,103
These things are evil because they take away the free will

702
00:59:49,103 --> 00:59:51,283
and the product of the free will of individuals.

703
00:59:51,683 --> 00:59:53,383
So it's all good versus evil

704
00:59:53,383 --> 00:59:56,623
is always a battle of freedom versus slavery

705
00:59:56,623 --> 00:59:58,503
or freedom versus some other.

706
00:59:58,503 --> 01:00:05,843
antithesis of slavery at the end of the day. And evil always rises in environments of good,

707
01:00:06,323 --> 01:00:13,323
sometimes overtaking them because the good is benevolent, charitable, giving, and generous. And

708
01:00:13,323 --> 01:00:20,803
so when the evil sees the generosity of the good, it takes and takes and takes. And then it feels

709
01:00:20,803 --> 01:00:26,623
entitled and keeps on taking and taking beyond what the good can produce and generously give.

710
01:00:26,623 --> 01:00:34,843
And so we end up with moments where we're confronting evil that is taking so much that even the good can't keep up with it.

711
01:00:35,103 --> 01:00:40,483
I think that is a description of where the Western world finds itself today.

712
01:00:40,723 --> 01:00:43,463
Like government has just grown so big, so out of control.

713
01:00:43,703 --> 01:00:54,863
And it's taking, you know, and it's commitments to give only in exchange for the people granting it more power to take from others that things are inverted and unsustainable.

714
01:00:55,423 --> 01:00:56,343
Yeah, absolutely.

715
01:00:56,343 --> 01:00:59,183
I mean, this is another hero's journey story.

716
01:00:59,363 --> 01:01:05,723
The Shawshank Redemption is what I used for the last chapter I added to the Praxeology book.

717
01:01:05,983 --> 01:01:11,463
And in that, like the Shawshank Redemption is really a metaphor for hope.

718
01:01:11,563 --> 01:01:13,343
It's a very good Bitcoin metaphor in that too.

719
01:01:13,463 --> 01:01:21,303
Like the low time preference of digging yourself up out of the prison with a teaspoon while everyone thinks you're doing something else is great.

720
01:01:21,303 --> 01:01:33,103
And also, Morgan Freeman's character tells Andrew Dufresne, Tim Robbins' character, that hope is dangerous because you are going to die in here.

721
01:01:33,223 --> 01:01:35,783
And if you're hopeful, it's only going to lead to depression.

722
01:01:36,503 --> 01:01:42,843
And he says, look at this 90-year-old guy that got released and two weeks later, he kills himself.

723
01:01:43,143 --> 01:01:48,403
Because he's so institutionalized and used to the three meals per day and the rules of the prison and stuff.

724
01:01:48,403 --> 01:02:07,223
But the meta point of the whole movie is that hope is always a rational choice because guess what? You're going to die anyway. So you might as well live as if there is hope. Because it's only when we live as if there is no hope that there actually isn't any hope.

725
01:02:07,223 --> 01:02:12,343
Like, look at the Soviet Union, the giant prison, continent-sized prison for 70 years.

726
01:02:12,723 --> 01:02:14,043
Hope got them out of there.

727
01:02:14,683 --> 01:02:19,603
Only when they started denying that these things are real that they stopped being real.

728
01:02:20,183 --> 01:02:21,243
So we can never let...

729
01:02:21,243 --> 01:02:27,943
I think this is a really important point here because part of what these repeated wars in Bitcoin are, these repeated battles,

730
01:02:28,423 --> 01:02:36,043
they're battles between those who have hope and are fighting for what they hope is true versus those who say, you might as well have no hope.

731
01:02:36,043 --> 01:02:39,083
Yeah, because the protocol does this.

732
01:02:39,663 --> 01:02:40,643
You can't do anything about spam.

733
01:02:40,743 --> 01:02:41,743
You can't do anything about the government.

734
01:02:41,903 --> 01:02:42,383
You can't do anything.

735
01:02:43,023 --> 01:02:45,223
And it's like Bitcoiners are, I'm going to try.

736
01:02:45,703 --> 01:02:49,923
So thanks for your defeatist advice.

737
01:02:50,203 --> 01:02:52,463
I'm still going to try because I have hope.

738
01:02:52,603 --> 01:02:58,143
Because I can see a path to realizing what I hope for through Bitcoin.

739
01:02:58,443 --> 01:03:00,083
And I mean, it is amazing.

740
01:03:00,183 --> 01:03:03,423
You and I have been in Bitcoins long enough to have seen it,

741
01:03:03,423 --> 01:03:09,583
not just win these wars, but on a much more personal level, deliver many of the things that

742
01:03:09,583 --> 01:03:16,723
we hope for within our personal lives and our family lives. Bitcoin has given me the ability to

743
01:03:16,723 --> 01:03:23,863
stay at home and take care of my kids who have special needs. Bitcoin, which I always hoped to

744
01:03:23,863 --> 01:03:30,583
do, but was unrealistic under the fiat system. And now I have it and now I can exercise it. And so

745
01:03:30,583 --> 01:03:35,543
my hopes have been realized. Bitcoin's, and that's what I want to do with my freedom,

746
01:03:36,223 --> 01:03:41,743
which the state won't let me do, right? And the traditional system wouldn't let me do.

747
01:03:41,743 --> 01:03:50,703
So there's a real hero's journey constantly happening for lots of people. And there are

748
01:03:50,703 --> 01:03:57,463
climaxes that end up happening, you know, and many people's hero's journey ends not because they died,

749
01:03:57,463 --> 01:04:01,843
but because they managed to achieve the goal that they had hoped to.

750
01:04:02,143 --> 01:04:06,823
So there's a lot of happy endings all over the Bitcoin story.

751
01:04:06,983 --> 01:04:08,303
I'm not saying it's only happy ending,

752
01:04:08,403 --> 01:04:11,083
but if you fight for what you believe in within Bitcoin,

753
01:04:11,703 --> 01:04:14,383
that's positive, that's a good outcome

754
01:04:14,383 --> 01:04:17,683
rather than an evil, treacherous, parasitic outcome,

755
01:04:18,263 --> 01:04:21,063
you can see that happen over and over and over again.

756
01:04:22,243 --> 01:04:22,803
Absolutely.

757
01:04:24,803 --> 01:04:26,323
You said happy ending there.

758
01:04:26,323 --> 01:04:31,323
I got a picture in my head of a Thai massage for Sats.

759
01:04:31,323 --> 01:04:33,323
That's you. That's your problem.

760
01:04:35,323 --> 01:04:39,323
I heard someone mention Swedish massage the other day.

761
01:04:39,323 --> 01:04:43,323
I was like, what the fuck is that? Oh, it must be a massage with a sad ending.

762
01:04:47,323 --> 01:04:50,323
That's funny. That's good confidence.

763
01:04:50,323 --> 01:05:01,783
If you want to find local Bitcoin communities, other Bitcoiners, Bitcoin merchants and Bitcoin events in your area, there's no better way to do that than through the Orange Pill app.

764
01:05:02,063 --> 01:05:02,803
Wait a minute.

765
01:05:03,103 --> 01:05:04,483
It's not the Orange Pill app anymore.

766
01:05:04,663 --> 01:05:05,843
It's Club Orange.

767
01:05:05,843 --> 01:05:16,363
Club Orange is an omni app that includes a lot of features, including a list of events, a wallet where you can send and receive sats over the Lightning Network.

768
01:05:16,363 --> 01:05:22,063
You can even geosap areas, so you can send sats to a whole bunch of people in one single area.

769
01:05:22,223 --> 01:05:26,723
You can also tap sap while you're chatting to someone, which is a new feature that I don't

770
01:05:26,723 --> 01:05:28,183
believe exists anywhere else.

771
01:05:28,363 --> 01:05:32,103
Overall, a fantastic app for connecting Bitcoiners all around the world.

772
01:05:32,363 --> 01:05:35,403
So go to cluborange.org and sign up today.

773
01:05:35,623 --> 01:05:36,563
You won't regret it.

774
01:05:36,783 --> 01:05:38,083
It's not just a gay dating app.

775
01:05:38,243 --> 01:05:39,423
It's everything else, too.

776
01:05:39,963 --> 01:05:41,043
You can use it.

777
01:05:41,803 --> 01:05:42,703
Forget about that.

778
01:05:43,163 --> 01:05:43,823
Go and sign up.

779
01:05:44,483 --> 01:05:45,983
Cluborange.org.

780
01:05:46,363 --> 01:05:50,303
If you want to really secure your Bitcoin, you should check out the Bitcoin Advisor.

781
01:05:50,683 --> 01:05:55,423
They have never lost a single set and they take care of your stack together with you.

782
01:05:55,603 --> 01:05:57,463
They can't use your stack. That's impossible.

783
01:05:57,903 --> 01:06:00,103
But they can help you with inheritance planning.

784
01:06:00,203 --> 01:06:02,223
They can help you huddle the Bitcoin long term.

785
01:06:02,483 --> 01:06:05,103
So go to thebitcoinadvisor.com to find out more.

786
01:06:05,543 --> 01:06:06,063
Brush your teeth.

787
01:06:06,683 --> 01:06:14,183
No, but would it be right to say, first, Bitcoin must win the war within you

788
01:06:14,183 --> 01:06:17,363
before you can be a soldier for Bitcoin in the external world.

789
01:06:17,623 --> 01:06:19,523
I think there's something to that.

790
01:06:19,943 --> 01:06:22,783
Yeah, I think that both happen simultaneously, though, right?

791
01:06:22,783 --> 01:06:23,783
It's not...

792
01:06:24,343 --> 01:06:26,883
I mean, I appreciate the point.

793
01:06:27,023 --> 01:06:30,243
Like, if you're going to fight, you have to believe in yourself, right?

794
01:06:30,323 --> 01:06:33,843
Because if you're approaching this with a defeatist attitude,

795
01:06:33,843 --> 01:06:38,283
the only sense of continuity and effort you get is,

796
01:06:38,643 --> 01:06:40,703
there's other people saying we're all defeatist,

797
01:06:40,803 --> 01:06:43,163
and you're acting out of fear, defeatism,

798
01:06:43,163 --> 01:06:49,763
you know, complacency and, and surrender. And so you're not fighting, you're acquiescing,

799
01:06:49,983 --> 01:06:54,823
right? And you're maybe standing in the way of those who are fighting. And so it feels like a

800
01:06:54,823 --> 01:06:57,963
fight because you're just standing there doing nothing. And other people are saying, get out of

801
01:06:57,963 --> 01:07:03,283
my way. And you're like, ah, why bother? Just let them do what they're going to do. They're going to

802
01:07:03,283 --> 01:07:08,483
do it anyways. And so you feel like you're in a fight with people, but you're really, you know,

803
01:07:08,483 --> 01:07:13,463
get the hell out of the way. Like you're just being in the way. You're not fighting for something.

804
01:07:13,723 --> 01:07:20,023
You're standing against something. And, and if you really, you know, assess like, am I, am I on the

805
01:07:20,023 --> 01:07:25,023
side of good or evil? That's really, that's really important. And if you find yourself in a position

806
01:07:25,023 --> 01:07:29,883
to say, there's no such thing as good or evil, then you've missed out on something, right? Like

807
01:07:29,883 --> 01:07:36,403
my advice to you is really think hard about the fact that there actually is good and evil.

808
01:07:36,403 --> 01:07:42,523
if you check out and presume that these concepts don't exist you're going to be lured into doing

809
01:07:42,523 --> 01:07:48,163
something that you think is neither good nor evil but which is evil yeah and if if if you don't find

810
01:07:48,163 --> 01:08:06,031
that distinction to be you know sexy enough go go read economic science and the Hans Hermann Hoppe and read up on argumentation ethics Because sure science cannot derive an ought from an is but can come pretty damn close to an ought not

811
01:08:06,031 --> 01:08:11,091
If you're deductively reasoning from first principles, you can...

812
01:08:11,091 --> 01:08:14,031
Well, listen, it's actually so overcomplicated.

813
01:08:15,051 --> 01:08:19,151
You know, the people who say you can't derive an ought from an is, I is hungry.

814
01:08:19,151 --> 01:08:27,891
right yeah i ought to eat food right yeah that is deriving it's anyone who say you can't like why

815
01:08:27,891 --> 01:08:32,831
ought you to eat food because you'll die otherwise well what you know why don't i want to die because

816
01:08:32,831 --> 01:08:37,991
there's because the very definition of value at some time at some point you have to pick your

817
01:08:37,991 --> 01:08:45,491
axioms like your figure maybe that's a vulgar word word to use in this context to some but

818
01:08:45,491 --> 01:08:47,551
first principles can do a lot.

819
01:08:48,391 --> 01:08:49,811
The argumentation

820
01:08:49,811 --> 01:08:51,411
ethics, I absolutely love it.

821
01:08:51,531 --> 01:08:53,551
If I argue with you, by the

822
01:08:53,551 --> 01:08:55,651
act of arguing, I show

823
01:08:55,651 --> 01:08:57,891
you that I think communication

824
01:08:57,891 --> 01:08:59,991
is an appropriate

825
01:08:59,991 --> 01:09:01,711
method for conflict resolution.

826
01:09:01,971 --> 01:09:03,951
And then if I start stealing anyway,

827
01:09:04,651 --> 01:09:05,911
it's not argumentation

828
01:09:05,911 --> 01:09:06,791
anymore, it's bullying.

829
01:09:08,231 --> 01:09:09,951
So it's

830
01:09:09,951 --> 01:09:11,631
literally the non-aggression principle.

831
01:09:11,951 --> 01:09:13,571
I think there's

832
01:09:13,571 --> 01:09:19,171
Like, I would love if this was in the backbone of every Bitcoiner, like everyone had this in them.

833
01:09:19,411 --> 01:09:22,931
But it seems like since Bitcoin is for anyone.

834
01:09:24,111 --> 01:09:25,371
And it includes those who don't.

835
01:09:25,751 --> 01:09:26,451
Yeah, exactly.

836
01:09:26,871 --> 01:09:31,611
I think that's when these wars happen in Bitcoin, it is this pulling back of the curtain.

837
01:09:31,611 --> 01:09:34,771
Like we thought we were all Bitcoiners and that it all meant the same thing.

838
01:09:34,811 --> 01:09:39,271
But then we find out, no, different people actually in this group have different values,

839
01:09:39,271 --> 01:09:44,091
are prepared to take different risks, are prepared to stand up for different things,

840
01:09:44,091 --> 01:09:47,991
and their philosophies are different.

841
01:09:48,551 --> 01:09:53,771
And even if they seem to agree on a lot of things that in the traditional world would view,

842
01:09:53,891 --> 01:09:55,471
they're all crypto-anarchists.

843
01:09:55,651 --> 01:10:00,011
Well, are you a permissive crypto-anarchist?

844
01:10:00,451 --> 01:10:01,051
Paranoid.

845
01:10:01,311 --> 01:10:02,691
Aggressive crypto-anarchist?

846
01:10:02,691 --> 01:10:07,151
Look, are you extremely paranoid crypto-anarchist?

847
01:10:07,151 --> 01:10:11,211
What are you paranoid? Are you paranoid about corruption? Are you paranoid about weakness?

848
01:10:11,431 --> 01:10:18,271
Like, so there's a lot to fight over, to argue about, right? And it doesn't always mean that

849
01:10:18,271 --> 01:10:24,151
there's one right side and one wrong side. I think that's also a false dichotomy. Sometimes both sides

850
01:10:24,151 --> 01:10:27,531
are wrong. Sometimes there's nuance in both. Sometimes there's a meeting in the middle.

851
01:10:27,631 --> 01:10:33,391
Sometimes neither side is extreme enough in one direction. And that's why, you know, there's

852
01:10:33,391 --> 01:10:37,891
there's a dispute. So getting to a workable solution, sometimes there's many workable

853
01:10:37,891 --> 01:10:43,471
solutions, right? Like there's more than one way to skin a cat. And yeah, so you can do it in

854
01:10:43,471 --> 01:10:50,131
different ways. I heard someone say that organizing Bitcoiners is like herding cats. I like that.

855
01:10:50,591 --> 01:10:56,031
It is. To tie this back to the movie analogies here and stuff, like,

856
01:10:56,171 --> 01:11:01,331
have you seen a South Park episode called The Death Camp of Tolerance?

857
01:11:01,331 --> 01:11:02,631
I don't think so

858
01:11:02,631 --> 01:11:03,491
I haven't seen

859
01:11:03,491 --> 01:11:04,651
I love South Park

860
01:11:04,651 --> 01:11:05,491
but I don't watch it

861
01:11:05,491 --> 01:11:07,291
regularly or religiously

862
01:11:07,291 --> 01:11:07,431
no no

863
01:11:07,431 --> 01:11:08,631
this is from one of the

864
01:11:08,631 --> 01:11:09,431
earlier seasons

865
01:11:09,431 --> 01:11:10,031
and it's great

866
01:11:10,031 --> 01:11:10,791
probably not

867
01:11:10,791 --> 01:11:11,751
because I didn't get into it

868
01:11:11,751 --> 01:11:12,831
until at least the movie

869
01:11:12,831 --> 01:11:13,691
came out

870
01:11:13,691 --> 01:11:14,731
yeah yeah

871
01:11:14,731 --> 01:11:16,011
but this is after the movie

872
01:11:16,011 --> 01:11:17,051
but still quite early

873
01:11:17,051 --> 01:11:18,051
like one of the first

874
01:11:18,051 --> 01:11:18,471
10 seasons

875
01:11:18,471 --> 01:11:18,491
you have to tell me what the episode

876
01:11:18,491 --> 01:11:19,171
was about then

877
01:11:19,171 --> 01:11:20,251
so it's about

878
01:11:20,251 --> 01:11:21,611
in the episode

879
01:11:21,611 --> 01:11:22,391
Mr. Garrison

880
01:11:22,391 --> 01:11:23,871
the school teacher

881
01:11:23,871 --> 01:11:25,711
figures out that

882
01:11:25,711 --> 01:11:26,971
someone has been given

883
01:11:26,971 --> 01:11:29,471
a million dollars

884
01:11:29,471 --> 01:11:31,311
because they were

885
01:11:31,311 --> 01:11:36,431
fired for being gay from a school. So he does everything in his power. The rest of the episode,

886
01:11:36,431 --> 01:11:41,391
he does everything in his power to get fired for being gay. Which means he starts doing more and

887
01:11:41,391 --> 01:11:50,511
more outrageous gay things with his partner, Mr. Slave in the classroom, including inserting small

888
01:11:50,511 --> 01:11:59,391
animals in various orifices of this Mr. Slave. And the more he tries, the more courageous everyone

889
01:11:59,391 --> 01:12:06,191
else seems to think he is because everyone just applauds him and he gets awards and stuff and at

890
01:12:06,191 --> 01:12:11,871
the same time there's a side plot about the nazi camp where everyone is supposed to be or forced

891
01:12:11,871 --> 01:12:19,711
forced to be tolerant uh which is hilarious in itself but i think this is that there's a bitcoin

892
01:12:19,711 --> 01:12:26,831
metaphor in here somewhere i think that the the uh morale of the story is like um just because i

893
01:12:26,831 --> 01:12:30,351
tolerate something does not have to mean that I approve of it.

894
01:12:30,351 --> 01:12:33,791
Like I can tolerate stuff, but I don't have to approve.

895
01:12:34,991 --> 01:12:36,911
Bitcoin is like that all the time.

896
01:12:36,911 --> 01:12:39,911
There's the consensus rules, which means I tolerate.

897
01:12:40,631 --> 01:12:45,991
I can still use my node and use my filter settings or whatnot to show

898
01:12:46,111 --> 01:12:51,831
to the world, maybe in vain, but I don't care that I don't approve.

899
01:12:51,911 --> 01:12:54,191
Like I can tolerate, but I don't have to approve.

900
01:12:54,191 --> 01:12:58,291
And I think that that's the nuance that people are missing.

901
01:12:58,871 --> 01:13:00,151
I mean, we have lived with this.

902
01:13:00,291 --> 01:13:03,011
There are things that are unacceptable.

903
01:13:03,611 --> 01:13:07,491
And we pass laws to say, if you do these unacceptable things,

904
01:13:08,351 --> 01:13:11,591
then the state is going to come after you.

905
01:13:11,651 --> 01:13:13,171
That's been the history.

906
01:13:13,471 --> 01:13:16,951
The state's overstepped its boundaries, but that's the concept behind the law.

907
01:13:17,171 --> 01:13:19,311
Then there are things that are unpopular, right?

908
01:13:19,431 --> 01:13:21,191
And we tolerate those.

909
01:13:21,811 --> 01:13:23,331
And so we draw a line.

910
01:13:23,331 --> 01:13:27,951
And we ourselves don't do those things.

911
01:13:28,291 --> 01:13:30,991
Popular is like, they're not for me, right?

912
01:13:31,991 --> 01:13:35,091
But I don't think people should go to jail for doing them, right?

913
01:13:35,351 --> 01:13:36,851
Like happy endings.

914
01:13:37,431 --> 01:13:37,631
Yeah.

915
01:13:39,091 --> 01:13:43,531
So we don't have laws on these things, but many of us frown upon them.

916
01:13:43,731 --> 01:13:47,031
And it's okay to frown upon the things that you don't like and to say to somebody,

917
01:13:47,031 --> 01:13:51,371
hey, you know, like you just, you know, you burped in the movie theater, you, you know,

918
01:13:51,451 --> 01:13:56,511
you spilled popcorn all over the movie theater, you made a mess of the place. That's not

919
01:13:57,191 --> 01:14:03,151
offensive. We need to get the state apparatus involved in, but to call somebody out and say,

920
01:14:03,211 --> 01:14:07,891
think about what you're doing. Maybe you ought not to be doing it is completely legitimate,

921
01:14:08,111 --> 01:14:12,411
right? They can't say, well, you know, so soon someone might say, so sue me, right? And it's

922
01:14:12,411 --> 01:14:19,811
against the law. But that is, and that's always in a free society going to be a large area where

923
01:14:19,811 --> 01:14:26,131
people dispute without violence, unapproved of activities, but not illegal activities, right?

924
01:14:26,511 --> 01:14:33,791
And so that's a difference between like what we consider valuable and moral. And

925
01:14:33,791 --> 01:14:39,871
we just have to accept that that's always going to be the case. And to your point,

926
01:14:39,871 --> 01:14:42,031
which keeps dragging us back into the

927
01:14:42,031 --> 01:14:43,211
knots thing but it's like you know

928
01:14:43,211 --> 01:14:45,971
I don't think anyone should go to jail for putting

929
01:14:45,971 --> 01:14:48,071
a normal inscription on

930
01:14:48,071 --> 01:14:49,331
their monkey JPEG

931
01:14:49,331 --> 01:14:52,071
but I don't like it and I'm happy to tell

932
01:14:52,071 --> 01:14:53,951
them that I don't like it and that I think they're doing something

933
01:14:53,951 --> 01:14:56,071
stupid with their own

934
01:14:56,071 --> 01:14:58,111
time and energy that isn't

935
01:14:58,111 --> 01:15:00,191
benefiting them and it's also causing

936
01:15:00,191 --> 01:15:02,171
some harm to other people

937
01:15:02,171 --> 01:15:03,051
so that they ought

938
01:15:03,051 --> 01:15:06,051
not to do it

939
01:15:06,051 --> 01:15:08,051
they ought to use

940
01:15:08,051 --> 01:15:09,631
Bitcoin exclusively as money

941
01:15:09,631 --> 01:15:14,491
And some people will simply do the opposite out of mischievousness.

942
01:15:14,971 --> 01:15:20,511
And I think we're always going to have to tolerate that because the good has to tolerate some amount of not good.

943
01:15:20,671 --> 01:15:24,691
I don't want to describe these things as evil because people will put them in the same camp as best.

944
01:15:24,691 --> 01:15:25,851
Well, stamps are evil.

945
01:15:27,331 --> 01:15:28,151
I mean, yeah.

946
01:15:28,291 --> 01:15:34,811
So those are intentionally mischievous things to exploit the goodwill of Bitcoin.

947
01:15:34,811 --> 01:15:41,311
right like to to do something not aligned with the interest of bitcoin that is permissible

948
01:15:41,311 --> 01:15:47,131
because bitcoin has to ultimately tolerate these things right and so but the behavior the conduct

949
01:15:47,131 --> 01:15:56,271
of it is is not good right it's intentionally malicious uh and it's malicious to other network

950
01:15:56,271 --> 01:16:02,051
participants but it's not able to be forbidden or maybe maybe it can be eventually but that's

951
01:16:02,051 --> 01:16:05,471
that's the way it is and so you're always going to have these people who are

952
01:16:06,011 --> 01:16:14,531
foreigns in the side of any system uh and you and and this is indeed where you know someone's saying

953
01:16:14,531 --> 01:16:19,431
well you might as well let them do anything because they can still do this is like that's a

954
01:16:19,431 --> 01:16:25,511
tolerant that's taking tolerance too far you know you do want to stop people from doing the things

955
01:16:25,511 --> 01:16:31,271
that you can stop them from that are wrong to do if you can stop them we don't want perfection to be

956
01:16:31,271 --> 01:16:32,031
the enemy of the good.

957
01:16:32,131 --> 01:16:33,751
If you say, well, we can't stop all crimes,

958
01:16:33,831 --> 01:16:35,931
so we might as well not have police and laws.

959
01:16:36,511 --> 01:16:40,211
That is a very defeatist and obviously invalid argument.

960
01:16:40,511 --> 01:16:42,791
And so, you know, but I don't want to talk anymore

961
01:16:42,791 --> 01:16:45,531
about spam and any more metaphors in that regard.

962
01:16:45,651 --> 01:16:46,351
So I'm done.

963
01:16:48,151 --> 01:16:48,811
Well, good.

964
01:16:49,051 --> 01:16:50,691
What do you want to talk about, Tomer?

965
01:16:50,691 --> 01:16:52,811
Well, you were talking about mining.

966
01:16:52,971 --> 01:16:54,871
You wanted to talk about mining decentralization.

967
01:16:55,051 --> 01:16:55,751
Yeah, yeah.

968
01:16:55,871 --> 01:16:59,191
And I think that's a really important thing

969
01:16:59,191 --> 01:17:02,671
because it's like the next big attack in Bitcoin,

970
01:17:03,011 --> 01:17:04,851
or I don't know what the next big attack,

971
01:17:04,931 --> 01:17:06,511
but a future big attack in Bitcoin,

972
01:17:06,711 --> 01:17:08,031
it's going to come from,

973
01:17:08,431 --> 01:17:11,791
there's three or four parties that can mine

974
01:17:11,791 --> 01:17:15,691
that have more than 51% of the hash power between them

975
01:17:15,691 --> 01:17:17,831
and they want to do something

976
01:17:17,831 --> 01:17:19,991
or they don't want something to be done

977
01:17:19,991 --> 01:17:23,211
and they have unilateral control over that.

978
01:17:23,451 --> 01:17:25,551
And that's going to bring us to a debate about this.

979
01:17:25,551 --> 01:17:35,571
So we can try to, if we can permanently prevent that situation from arising by decentralizing mining, that's a war we avert.

980
01:17:35,571 --> 01:17:41,691
We averted through a distribution of power so that no one can abuse that particular power.

981
01:17:42,571 --> 01:17:45,071
And the decentralization of mining is very important.

982
01:17:45,071 --> 01:18:00,071
There's arguments that are made as to how best to decentralize it, but certainly the most relevant present matter is ocean mining and datum, which is part of the previous controversy we don't want to discuss anymore.

983
01:18:00,071 --> 01:18:14,551
But it's this notion that you can actually have a pool where participants are each forming their own block templates according to rules that they decide upon.

984
01:18:15,131 --> 01:18:17,951
And so they're not all in cahoots with one another.

985
01:18:18,151 --> 01:18:20,911
And there isn't someone on top of them telling them what to do.

986
01:18:21,111 --> 01:18:22,651
And so they're free and sovereign.

987
01:18:22,991 --> 01:18:24,251
And this is a big deal.

988
01:18:24,251 --> 01:18:36,311
And whether or not that all ends up happening exclusively with an ocean pool, because ocean pool really isn't a pool in the same way that the others are, thanks to Datum, or others use Datum, that's all going to be good.

989
01:18:36,411 --> 01:18:41,631
So I think the pushing forward of Datum for mining decentralization is really important.

990
01:18:41,771 --> 01:18:46,871
And I'd like to see other significant pools adopt it.

991
01:18:47,511 --> 01:18:51,951
Absolutely. And alternatives to ocean and Datum would be nice.

992
01:18:51,951 --> 01:19:00,251
Because right now, if you're mining with another pool, an FPPS pool, you're basically not a miner, but a hashmonger.

993
01:19:00,831 --> 01:19:01,671
That's what you are.

994
01:19:01,751 --> 01:19:04,191
You sell your hash power, but you don't know what block you're mining.

995
01:19:04,311 --> 01:19:06,111
So you can't really call yourself a miner in that case.

996
01:19:06,351 --> 01:19:17,031
Also important to point out that you can mine 100 kilobyte op-return with core using that.

997
01:19:17,031 --> 01:19:24,791
of like you it doesn't it doesn't stop you from doing any of that uh and and there's there's

998
01:19:24,791 --> 01:19:32,051
another actually actual um like it say for instance if all the bigger pools more centralized

999
01:19:32,051 --> 01:19:37,791
pools uh refused to mine these 100 kilobyte operaturns now we're getting back to this again

1000
01:19:37,791 --> 01:19:43,091
sorry i know we shouldn't talk about it but but this is in a different context uh then there's

1001
01:19:43,091 --> 01:19:48,471
actually a bigger risk that one of these smaller miners that is making his old block template is

1002
01:19:48,471 --> 01:19:54,171
the one that is going to actually put the thing on the on chain so that's the irony of that but

1003
01:19:54,171 --> 01:20:01,511
that aside like i agree with you like the the thing i'd really like to see is competitors to ocean

1004
01:20:01,511 --> 01:20:08,271
like other pools with similar models because it's not good if they are they are the only one and the

1005
01:20:08,271 --> 01:20:23,559
only alternative That never good Like with I like to see others I heard like I think it was at that Abu Dhabi conference where someone mentioned that they were doing something similar or maybe it was in Slovenia this minor conference

1006
01:20:23,559 --> 01:20:24,979
You've already had too many conferences.

1007
01:20:25,339 --> 01:20:30,299
Someone in the Terra was going to be launching a Stratum V2 pool, but it's now more than a half

1008
01:20:30,299 --> 01:20:35,299
later, and it hasn't launched. And I think, you know, this, again, is perfect, being the enemy

1009
01:20:35,299 --> 01:20:42,359
of the good. The Stratum Big 2 is a long-term project that hasn't delivered a working pool yet,

1010
01:20:42,439 --> 01:20:47,339
even though there's pools that say they're going to use it, whereas Datum and Ocean developed Datum

1011
01:20:47,339 --> 01:20:53,539
quickly, and it is working. It may not be perfect, again, but they haven't let

1012
01:20:53,539 --> 01:20:59,899
perfect become the enemy of the good, and what they're doing is good, and they're growing.

1013
01:21:00,439 --> 01:21:05,279
There's a long road ahead of them. They're still under 2% of the whole network cash,

1014
01:21:05,299 --> 01:21:14,459
rate. So we've got a long way to go, but I mean, I'd love to see my actual miners mining, right?

1015
01:21:14,519 --> 01:21:19,779
Not miners, just hashing someone else's template, but being able to take the sovereignty over,

1016
01:21:21,019 --> 01:21:26,479
spread it to surety 40, 50% in the next few years. I don't think that's inconceivable,

1017
01:21:26,479 --> 01:21:35,679
but it requires education, lobbying, and explanation to the people who control a lot of the hash power.

1018
01:21:35,839 --> 01:21:39,619
And I think historically, you know, certainly what we saw in the block size wars was that

1019
01:21:39,619 --> 01:21:46,659
miners back then, they were just trying to make a very short-term buck, literally dollar,

1020
01:21:46,659 --> 01:21:51,239
as quick as they could. So if it came a little bit, you know, they might, the hash rate got

1021
01:21:51,239 --> 01:21:59,519
distributed between Bitcoin cash and Bitcoin precisely according to where the most, the highest

1022
01:21:59,519 --> 01:22:06,459
nominal or marginal cent in dollar terms was going to be earned. And quite often, you know, like, you

1023
01:22:06,459 --> 01:22:13,239
know, it would even be the case that fees were ignored or the hundred block wait time was ignored

1024
01:22:13,239 --> 01:22:18,499
because, you know, Bitcoin cash might be crashing. But it was if it was worth one one hundredth of

1025
01:22:18,499 --> 01:22:25,259
Bitcoin, then miners ended up putting one one hundredth of the hash rate to Bitcoin cash as they

1026
01:22:25,259 --> 01:22:30,739
did to Bitcoin because it was just like revenue neutral or profit neutral. It was entirely on

1027
01:22:30,739 --> 01:22:37,439
without principle, right? It was entirely, the only principle was make a buck. And I think

1028
01:22:37,439 --> 01:22:44,719
mining is such a hard business long-term. The difficulty adjusts every couple of weeks to

1029
01:22:44,719 --> 01:22:51,719
take away any advantage that you had over the network to have you touch your rewards and

1030
01:22:51,719 --> 01:22:57,619
difficulty adjustment works both ways like this is why i think like anything about tailor missions

1031
01:22:57,619 --> 01:23:03,939
it's not half the time it works in your favor and half the time it doesn't it's like no no

1032
01:23:03,939 --> 01:23:10,559
almost all the time it works against you because other miners because if you're profitable then you

1033
01:23:10,559 --> 01:23:17,939
and other miners have the incentive to mine more. And if there's someone selling mining equipment

1034
01:23:17,939 --> 01:23:22,659
to the market, it's like either you buy it or they buy it. And if they buy it, they're going to

1035
01:23:22,659 --> 01:23:27,519
increase the difficulty and get more of the market share, which is a fixed reward. It's not like the

1036
01:23:27,519 --> 01:23:32,759
market is growing. The amount of Bitcoin being issued is fixed at every block. And so I think

1037
01:23:32,759 --> 01:23:39,339
that's what makes it a uniquely, nearly perfectly competitive market. And it uses game theory,

1038
01:23:39,339 --> 01:23:46,879
The best way to win the mining game is for miners not to add hash power and nobody else to add hash power to the network.

1039
01:23:47,219 --> 01:23:51,699
Then it would be super simple to make tons and tons of money.

1040
01:23:51,959 --> 01:23:56,179
But, of course, people are tempted by the opportunity to earn more money.

1041
01:23:56,999 --> 01:24:01,199
And so they continue to add hash rate as long as it seems profitable.

1042
01:24:01,199 --> 01:24:06,019
And oftentimes they overshoot because many of them are adding hash rate at the same time,

1043
01:24:06,019 --> 01:24:12,499
Which makes the business, when you zoom out at it a long time, there's been lots of bankruptcies in mining.

1044
01:24:12,659 --> 01:24:16,299
There's been lots of periods of losses.

1045
01:24:16,919 --> 01:24:18,679
It hasn't been a great investment.

1046
01:24:19,279 --> 01:24:28,559
And now many of them are making this, the industrial miners are making the shift to being also data centers for AI computation because of the pure play thing.

1047
01:24:28,559 --> 01:24:33,079
So I think pure play mining is getting harder and harder to be profitable at.

1048
01:24:33,079 --> 01:24:41,559
And it'll end up being infused or part of power generation facilities or at least managed for power generation.

1049
01:24:41,779 --> 01:24:42,159
Or heat.

1050
01:24:42,919 --> 01:24:43,039
Yeah.

1051
01:24:43,399 --> 01:24:46,819
Yeah, like trying to extract the heat, trying to do it.

1052
01:24:46,879 --> 01:25:00,079
So there's all sorts of different strategies that develop, whether you're trying to get cheap energy that's stranded or whether you're trying to get benefits from the secondary effects of using the energy to mine, such as heat.

1053
01:25:00,079 --> 01:25:06,519
all these strategies are not about pure mining and that's where the differentiation ultimately

1054
01:25:06,519 --> 01:25:11,559
comes in. And I think principled mining may, may well end up being like, we get, we get to see a

1055
01:25:11,559 --> 01:25:17,759
blow up of long-term financial support for publicly traded mining companies. That doesn't

1056
01:25:17,759 --> 01:25:23,039
mean mining is going to go away, but it may mean that many people mine at home and, you know, and

1057
01:25:23,039 --> 01:25:31,119
actually do it to protect their freedom, you know, to secure their coins and secure their ability

1058
01:25:31,119 --> 01:25:38,059
to have their transactions included in blocks because they'll be mining in a pool where people

1059
01:25:38,059 --> 01:25:45,059
generally prefer to be permissive of the proper use cases and not permissive of spammy use cases

1060
01:25:45,059 --> 01:25:51,039
that prevent financial transactions from making it into the blockchain too expensively.

1061
01:25:51,039 --> 01:26:01,459
There's a whole unstructured future ahead of us here that we just haven't confronted yet because the challenges haven't come.

1062
01:26:01,699 --> 01:26:08,519
The attack hasn't come to say, I'm a miner with 50% of the network or a substantial amount.

1063
01:26:08,979 --> 01:26:17,199
And some governments are paying me to fill the blockchain to either mine empty blocks or fill it with stuff that isn't ordinary users transactions.

1064
01:26:17,199 --> 01:26:19,379
And so people are restricted from using Bitcoin.

1065
01:26:19,379 --> 01:26:25,739
how do we overcome that? And there can be all kinds of solutions, but mining centralization

1066
01:26:25,739 --> 01:26:32,499
is a problem. And mining philosophy could be a problem. If we have very decentralized miners,

1067
01:26:32,599 --> 01:26:36,739
but they all act the same because their philosophy is just take whatever I can,

1068
01:26:37,259 --> 01:26:41,679
rather than take what's good for the network. And there's someone putting a lot of stuff that's bad

1069
01:26:41,679 --> 01:26:46,859
for the network out there and mempools, then we've gotten the same sort of problem on our hand.

1070
01:26:46,859 --> 01:26:54,099
But I'm sure we're going to confront all of these battles and they'll all be stressful and straining and we'll have to figure out how to resolve.

1071
01:26:55,019 --> 01:27:04,559
I think though that directionally they will have to be more philosophically aligned because they will over time realize that the Satoshi is more valuable than a dollar.

1072
01:27:05,099 --> 01:27:10,519
Like that a quick buck is not as desirable as the Satoshis themselves.

1073
01:27:10,519 --> 01:27:30,679
That will be crossing the Rubicon. When miners want to hold on to Bitcoin because energy providers to them accept Bitcoin as payment for their energy, and then energy producers are accepting and holding Bitcoin, we will be in a new world then, and hopefully an easier world.

1074
01:27:30,679 --> 01:27:43,999
I guess it'll have all sorts of new challenges that we haven't discussed yet, but we will have one and important or, which is the acceptance of Bitcoin as a medium of exchange, especially for energy, which is kind of the base.

1075
01:27:44,899 --> 01:27:45,419
Yeah.

1076
01:27:45,819 --> 01:27:50,519
The commodity in our Western industrialized world.

1077
01:27:51,239 --> 01:27:51,419
Yeah.

1078
01:27:51,419 --> 01:27:58,819
And I love the fact that in the future, we're going to have to figure out parallel use cases to mining.

1079
01:27:58,979 --> 01:28:00,359
And heating is the most obvious one.

1080
01:28:00,359 --> 01:28:02,699
I'm just waiting for I'm going to give them a shout out.

1081
01:28:02,699 --> 01:28:08,299
Of course, I'm waiting for my often two from 21 energy, which is a Bitcoin

1082
01:28:08,299 --> 01:28:09,619
minor and a house heater.

1083
01:28:09,619 --> 01:28:12,859
And it's really good to have it down here in Spain because the houses aren't

1084
01:28:12,859 --> 01:28:16,999
insulated. So like January, February in Spain is really shit cold inside.

1085
01:28:17,399 --> 01:28:17,659
Right.

1086
01:28:17,659 --> 01:28:22,419
So it's very good to have one of those and it's going to be super fun to install

1087
01:28:22,419 --> 01:28:23,719
it and start mining.

1088
01:28:24,859 --> 01:28:25,719
And it's just a room.

1089
01:28:25,719 --> 01:28:27,559
It's a room heater, like a space heater.

1090
01:28:27,799 --> 01:28:28,359
Okay. Yeah.

1091
01:28:28,359 --> 01:28:32,739
It's an indoor room heater, exactly.

1092
01:28:33,599 --> 01:28:44,239
So instead of gas or electricity, well, it is electricity, but it will not only heat up the room, but mine Bitcoin as well.

1093
01:28:44,239 --> 01:28:44,799
And why not?

1094
01:28:44,799 --> 01:28:45,079
Yeah.

1095
01:28:47,559 --> 01:28:58,119
Another funny aside is that the fact that hash rate is constantly going up because Bitcoin is awesome, also means that the 10 minute interval is

1096
01:28:58,119 --> 01:29:04,279
in reality wrong it's more than it's more like nine and a half minutes yeah which is interesting

1097
01:29:04,279 --> 01:29:11,239
right but it is what it is i guess yeah well i mean yeah but the faster blocks end up you end up

1098
01:29:11,239 --> 01:29:14,679
paying if you're a miner you and you think you're getting blocks faster but you're ending up paying

1099
01:29:14,679 --> 01:29:18,919
for them in higher difficulty yeah yeah yeah so it all levels out in the end it's just like

1100
01:29:18,919 --> 01:29:24,279
it's constantly working against you you're like i'm helping you bitcoin it's like well you know

1101
01:29:24,279 --> 01:29:27,679
Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm helping you too, but you need to lower your time.

1102
01:29:27,679 --> 01:29:29,119
I'm a bitcoins.

1103
01:29:29,119 --> 01:29:32,679
Bitcoin's reply is yes, I'm going to help you too,

1104
01:29:32,679 --> 01:29:34,839
but only if you can be patient for a decade.

1105
01:29:35,239 --> 01:29:35,839
Like it.

1106
01:29:35,839 --> 01:29:37,999
Yeah, yeah.

1107
01:29:37,999 --> 01:29:40,519
Lower your time preference and I'll pay you too.

1108
01:29:41,159 --> 01:29:41,519
Yeah.

1109
01:29:41,519 --> 01:29:46,479
So maybe another little pivot is you turn me on to Hans Hermann Hoppe and I've.

1110
01:29:46,479 --> 01:29:47,359
Oh, you did.

1111
01:29:47,359 --> 01:29:49,159
Yeah. You've been reading Hoppe.

1112
01:29:49,159 --> 01:29:50,359
Excellent. Yeah.

1113
01:29:50,359 --> 01:29:53,999
I've been reading some of his stuff and one of the topics that comes up a lot

1114
01:29:53,999 --> 01:29:56,859
and I was talking that I was at the Canadian Bitcoin conference,

1115
01:29:57,399 --> 01:29:58,959
is this topic of secession.

1116
01:30:00,279 --> 01:30:06,019
Like states or provinces seceding from a federally established government.

1117
01:30:06,559 --> 01:30:12,279
And he talks about it as cities being able to secede from European states.

1118
01:30:13,659 --> 01:30:17,079
I think he says 10,000 Liechtensteins somewhere.

1119
01:30:17,439 --> 01:30:18,459
That's what we would want.

1120
01:30:18,459 --> 01:30:33,599
Yeah. And he says, you know, this is the correct action for when the federation, when the larger, higher level of government oversteps its boundaries and becomes illegitimate.

1121
01:30:33,759 --> 01:30:45,299
I mean, he's very big on using the term illegitimate. When the government becomes evil, that's my term, it becomes illegitimate and it becomes right to take the power away from it.

1122
01:30:45,299 --> 01:30:58,299
And, you know, and when you actually have like a two party system where both parties are corrupted, and so your only choice is to vote for one or the other, secession is the legitimate action to remove the illegitimate government.

1123
01:30:58,299 --> 01:31:09,259
And in Canada, we have 10 provinces and three territories, and two of the provinces are stirring about talking about secession.

1124
01:31:09,259 --> 01:31:24,119
And one of the challenges that you have when you have a fiat currency issued by the federal establishment is all of your money is made up and controlled by the federal government.

1125
01:31:24,119 --> 01:31:30,179
So if Alberta or Quebec tries to secede from Canada, what does their money become?

1126
01:31:30,839 --> 01:31:38,379
They become the El Salvador's of the nation once known as Canada.

1127
01:31:39,259 --> 01:31:46,679
And so they need to have reserves of money that will be accepted elsewhere that can't be overinflated at their expense.

1128
01:31:46,679 --> 01:31:58,639
And I think Bitcoin has this incredible candidate for restoring the justice of legitimacy of government or the option to exit illegitimate oversight that hasn't existed before.

1129
01:31:58,639 --> 01:32:20,179
And so, you know, I don't want to expect these things to happen quickly, but I think the view of Bitcoin as being this Austrian libertarian empowering tool, not just for savings, but for enforcing government legitimacy or exiting illegitimate government hasn't really been something that's been talked about.

1130
01:32:20,179 --> 01:32:47,047
But when there conversations at Bitcoin conferences around this thing I really encourage people to read his essays on illegitimacy and secession and to consider how Bitcoin may be a valuable instrument in a province a city a state establishing for themselves So you know people talk about strategic Bitcoin reserves for what purpose right

1131
01:32:47,047 --> 01:32:56,087
Well, ironically, for the purpose of a local government seceding from a tyrannical, overarching

1132
01:32:56,087 --> 01:32:58,127
government, it could be the reason.

1133
01:32:58,247 --> 01:33:02,287
So when states and cities start forming these reserves, it makes a lot more sense to me

1134
01:33:02,287 --> 01:33:07,027
than when federal governments start accumulating these reserves.

1135
01:33:07,147 --> 01:33:10,787
Because I don't know what a federal government that's issuing a fiat currency is going to do,

1136
01:33:11,027 --> 01:33:13,387
but a local government that doesn't issue a fiat currency

1137
01:33:13,387 --> 01:33:17,727
and is subordinate to the fiat currency legal tender laws of the federal government,

1138
01:33:17,727 --> 01:33:21,467
it does create options and value.

1139
01:33:22,927 --> 01:33:27,467
Absolutely. I mean, I visited the state of Alberta this summer.

1140
01:33:27,467 --> 01:33:33,267
province the province no the province of albert i would say the state of alberta

1141
01:33:33,267 --> 01:33:42,947
and the and yeah there to in order to do so i had to uh accept some interference from the bigger

1142
01:33:42,947 --> 01:33:51,287
mafia that wanted me to use uh their uh cock buck uh money and put up a border and some signs

1143
01:33:51,287 --> 01:33:57,107
saying canada all over the place but i was never in canada i was in alberta and i used bitcoin

1144
01:33:57,107 --> 01:34:00,087
with the real Albertans that already use Bitcoin.

1145
01:34:00,567 --> 01:34:01,987
Bitcoin already fixes this.

1146
01:34:02,727 --> 01:34:08,887
And there was a lot of state agents from the Canada thing roaming around,

1147
01:34:09,067 --> 01:34:10,527
but I was never with those people.

1148
01:34:10,707 --> 01:34:13,627
I was with the true Albertans, and they all used Bitcoins.

1149
01:34:14,207 --> 01:34:16,047
And they lived in Alberta, and I loved it.

1150
01:34:16,807 --> 01:34:21,827
Yeah, I think, well, I mean, this will maybe be a shorter conversation,

1151
01:34:21,827 --> 01:34:29,027
But it is remarkable how Bitcoin reaches the individual and then it reaches these organizations.

1152
01:34:29,287 --> 01:34:37,027
And I think, I can't remember if it was before we started recording, but when we talk about companies trying to hold Bitcoin, well, Bitcoin's meant to be held by the individual.

1153
01:34:37,027 --> 01:34:45,767
But, you know, it's not ridiculous to think that Bitcoin could be held by a dependent state, right?

1154
01:34:45,887 --> 01:34:52,927
A state that's part of a federation that's seeking independence through secession and needs to secede.

1155
01:34:53,007 --> 01:34:59,107
Like, why do Albertans want to secede from the state of Canada, from the federation, from the nation of Canada?

1156
01:34:59,547 --> 01:35:01,327
Well, they're being stolen, right?

1157
01:35:01,327 --> 01:35:13,227
They're actually in Canada, something called transfer payment, which is the government looks at how much income everybody has with the average income is in different provinces and says, well, yours is too high because it's higher than these other people.

1158
01:35:13,287 --> 01:35:16,447
So we're going to increase your taxes and send the money over there.

1159
01:35:16,527 --> 01:35:19,687
So they're being stolen from by the power of fiat usury.

1160
01:35:19,687 --> 01:35:28,187
And if they just tried to secede with the fiat dollars that they have, the government would simply print more and not distribute them in Alberta.

1161
01:35:28,187 --> 01:35:33,307
And even though Alberta seceded, it would essentially become poor from its financial resources.

1162
01:35:33,507 --> 01:35:38,267
So it needs to divest itself of the Canadian dollar and into something else.

1163
01:35:38,387 --> 01:35:43,547
But how can it really divest itself of the Canadian dollar without Bitcoin?

1164
01:35:43,927 --> 01:35:49,887
What are people going to use as money during the years that it takes to divest itself of the Canadian dollar?

1165
01:35:49,887 --> 01:35:52,467
There's nothing else.

1166
01:35:52,467 --> 01:36:09,707
So the importance and the need for low time preference around the adoption of Bitcoin for citizens to have future choices for themselves and their posterity can't be overstated enough.

1167
01:36:09,947 --> 01:36:18,687
It's really, really important because if you're subordinate to a money printer, then you are a slave of the money printer and you can't escape the money printer.

1168
01:36:18,687 --> 01:36:26,127
And this is the sly roundabout way that gets you freedom from, even though it may take many, many years.

1169
01:36:27,167 --> 01:36:34,447
Absolutely. It's the Bitcoin fixes this thesis playing out in real life.

1170
01:36:34,627 --> 01:36:35,907
And yeah, I absolutely agree.

1171
01:36:36,827 --> 01:36:42,667
Smaller and smaller units, ultimately the responsible individual holds the Bitcoin.

1172
01:36:43,327 --> 01:36:44,847
And that's the way it should be.

1173
01:36:44,847 --> 01:36:51,147
like we're taking back the driver's seats of our lives here on multiple levels.

1174
01:36:51,427 --> 01:36:57,427
But I think this is an underappreciated level, like the secession narrative.

1175
01:36:58,547 --> 01:37:01,047
It's not taken seriously by federal governments.

1176
01:37:01,207 --> 01:37:04,327
They think, oh, we'll bring in the troops, we'll pass a law,

1177
01:37:04,507 --> 01:37:05,967
we'll print them into oblivion.

1178
01:37:05,967 --> 01:37:09,667
But if you look at a place like Madeira, for instance,

1179
01:37:10,027 --> 01:37:14,007
I mean, we were there, how long ago was that?

1180
01:37:14,007 --> 01:37:15,887
like almost two years now?

1181
01:37:15,887 --> 01:37:16,587
Last string, yeah.

1182
01:37:16,747 --> 01:37:17,447
So a year and a half.

1183
01:37:17,807 --> 01:37:18,707
Yeah, a year and a half.

1184
01:37:19,147 --> 01:37:23,167
And that place is already kind of independent

1185
01:37:23,167 --> 01:37:25,207
because it's on an island and it's far off.

1186
01:37:25,207 --> 01:37:27,427
So the bigger Portuguese government

1187
01:37:27,427 --> 01:37:29,827
can't do too much to them.

1188
01:37:30,107 --> 01:37:31,347
But what they can do though,

1189
01:37:31,487 --> 01:37:33,087
and what the EU can do,

1190
01:37:33,207 --> 01:37:35,167
is malevolent the euro

1191
01:37:35,167 --> 01:37:37,967
and control them that way.

1192
01:37:38,287 --> 01:37:42,867
But Madeira now has like almost 200 retailers,

1193
01:37:42,867 --> 01:37:47,307
except in Bitcoin and a thriving Bitcoiner community.

1194
01:37:47,887 --> 01:37:49,627
And what can they do about it?

1195
01:37:49,747 --> 01:37:49,987
Nothing.

1196
01:37:50,247 --> 01:37:52,287
They are regaining independence

1197
01:37:52,287 --> 01:37:55,027
through just having this thing around.

1198
01:37:55,947 --> 01:37:59,227
It's a small economy that it won't be fought over, right?

1199
01:37:59,367 --> 01:38:02,027
But Alberta and Quebec or Texas,

1200
01:38:02,647 --> 01:38:04,827
they're going to have a harder time

1201
01:38:04,827 --> 01:38:07,767
if they want to declare independence

1202
01:38:07,767 --> 01:38:11,147
than Madeira might.

1203
01:38:11,527 --> 01:38:12,387
Madeira is geographic.

1204
01:38:12,387 --> 01:38:18,587
It's more likely that it's on a city level than on a province level.

1205
01:38:18,947 --> 01:38:27,247
I wish I could live 200 years just to see the outcome of what's going to be with Bitcoin and sovereignty and city-states and culture.

1206
01:38:27,247 --> 01:38:32,047
because one of the things that we're seeing,

1207
01:38:32,147 --> 01:38:35,587
and this again is an underappreciated cost of fiat money,

1208
01:38:35,867 --> 01:38:38,187
it's not just that people are stolen from,

1209
01:38:38,387 --> 01:38:42,567
it's the culture becomes vastly diluted

1210
01:38:42,567 --> 01:38:46,287
because you may have whatever legislature you want in Spain.

1211
01:38:46,287 --> 01:38:49,267
If you use the euro, it's that European Central Bank

1212
01:38:49,267 --> 01:38:52,507
that controls the debasement and so many other things.

1213
01:38:52,627 --> 01:38:56,367
And the only country we've seen secede from the European Union

1214
01:38:56,367 --> 01:39:02,527
is the one that never surrendered its currency to the euro which is the uk right but like they

1215
01:39:03,087 --> 01:39:07,647
there are other countries that didn't surrender the currency though right but they may be able to

1216
01:39:07,647 --> 01:39:13,327
succeed much more easily than the countries so some of them are like they have different ties

1217
01:39:13,327 --> 01:39:21,167
to the euros like the swedish krona the czech krona the the bulgarian lev are all detached from the

1218
01:39:21,167 --> 01:39:27,087
euros to the different degrees now bulgaria is switching over though which would would have been

1219
01:39:27,087 --> 01:39:33,407
a great opportunity for them to switch for to a real money instead but but you know there's a lot

1220
01:39:34,207 --> 01:39:40,927
of boomers momentum of history doesn't shift quickly it is history is a slow thing that you

1221
01:39:40,927 --> 01:39:49,327
study over decades and centuries right not months and weeks um though like as historic as i think

1222
01:39:49,327 --> 01:39:55,847
Bitcoin is, I think it's important to recognize that its historic impact is going to be felt over

1223
01:39:55,847 --> 01:40:02,227
centuries. It's really cool. It's really interesting to be involved in it now and to be able to

1224
01:40:02,227 --> 01:40:10,247
have your voice heard and to form an opinion that it matters what your opinion is on the adoption of

1225
01:40:10,247 --> 01:40:17,687
it as money and its direction. But it's really big impact is going to be to

1226
01:40:17,687 --> 01:40:25,047
liberate humanity from broken money and broken government, right? It's a historic,

1227
01:40:25,427 --> 01:40:33,027
political, economic phenomenon of unprecedented proportion. And so it's, oh, the humanity

1228
01:40:33,027 --> 01:40:40,407
developed industrialized civilization, but suffered from centralization at this point.

1229
01:40:40,407 --> 01:40:47,527
And the only real thing that's actually going to matter in decentralizing industrialized humanity

1230
01:40:47,527 --> 01:40:53,267
is Bitcoin. I know that's a bold statement. I probably need to write a book or two about it

1231
01:40:53,267 --> 01:41:01,187
rather than spend the last five minutes or 10 minutes of a podcast on it. But I rationally

1232
01:41:01,187 --> 01:41:08,447
believe that. It's more than just hope. It's more than just platitudes. It's like, this is going to

1233
01:41:08,447 --> 01:41:13,127
take over the money and the money is the, it's the one really bad thing about government. Like

1234
01:41:13,127 --> 01:41:16,947
if government didn't have the ability to print money, it wouldn't actually be as bad as it is.

1235
01:41:16,947 --> 01:41:23,187
No, they would be held accountable to a much larger degree, like it's the illusion.

1236
01:41:23,527 --> 01:41:25,127
But it's also what people want.

1237
01:41:25,227 --> 01:41:27,447
They want the free lunch.

1238
01:41:27,567 --> 01:41:33,027
The urge to have the free lunch is the source of all evil in that sense.

1239
01:41:33,447 --> 01:41:35,527
Because it is the source of all money.

1240
01:41:36,087 --> 01:41:40,387
And it's a little failure to recognize that there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

1241
01:41:40,387 --> 01:41:42,247
You're paying for it.

1242
01:41:42,547 --> 01:41:44,167
With your freedom, you're paying for it.

1243
01:41:44,227 --> 01:41:46,687
With the civilization's culture, you're paying for it.

1244
01:41:46,947 --> 01:41:50,307
with your ability to create a long term plan for yourself.

1245
01:41:50,307 --> 01:41:53,627
And, you know, you're paying for it in all sorts of different ways.

1246
01:41:54,227 --> 01:41:58,547
And we've been through this before, Tomer, nor is there such a thing as a second breakfast.

1247
01:41:58,747 --> 01:42:00,747
You can only break your fast once.

1248
01:42:00,747 --> 01:42:02,547
There is no second breakfast. Yeah.

1249
01:42:02,547 --> 01:42:03,547
Okay.

1250
01:42:03,547 --> 01:42:05,867
And then there's some I'm not technical enough to understand.

1251
01:42:07,867 --> 01:42:12,187
And there's no such thing as a damn brunch because that's gay and retarded.

1252
01:42:14,427 --> 01:42:16,787
It's a breakfast for fucks sake.

1253
01:42:16,787 --> 01:42:20,207
Slightly late breakfast with lunch and food.

1254
01:42:20,647 --> 01:42:23,767
No, no, no. Fasting is good for you. Eggs and bacon are good for you.

1255
01:42:23,927 --> 01:42:25,607
Yeah, it's a breakfast.

1256
01:42:26,467 --> 01:42:32,527
Anyway, I mean, if you want more from Tomer, you should check out the legendary treasure of Satoshi Nakamoto.

1257
01:42:32,527 --> 01:42:39,307
It's a beautiful piece of Bitcoin film art and a beautiful piece of writing, I'd say.

1258
01:42:39,427 --> 01:42:40,687
One of my favorite pieces.

1259
01:42:41,787 --> 01:42:44,727
And also the Bitcoin Philosophy Sundays, right?

1260
01:42:44,847 --> 01:42:46,607
That's the name of your space.

1261
01:42:46,607 --> 01:42:53,467
Yeah, that's what I do on Twitter on Sunday mornings at 8.30 Eastern time, depending on what your time zone is.

1262
01:42:53,987 --> 01:42:58,767
Definitely a good time for Europeans to join in because it's early afternoon for them.

1263
01:42:59,287 --> 01:42:59,867
Yeah, yeah.

1264
01:43:00,087 --> 01:43:01,207
And it's great fun.

1265
01:43:01,367 --> 01:43:03,027
I join every now and then.

1266
01:43:03,707 --> 01:43:09,807
I think I've even been invited to host it at one point, but unfortunately I couldn't do it that time around.

1267
01:43:09,807 --> 01:43:15,607
Well, I have plenty of vacations, so to have you fill in the guest post would be really good.

1268
01:43:15,607 --> 01:43:16,507
Anytime, man.

1269
01:43:16,607 --> 01:43:17,707
I love it.

1270
01:43:17,767 --> 01:43:18,227
Next month.

1271
01:43:18,927 --> 01:43:19,647
I've got to reach

1272
01:43:19,647 --> 01:43:20,327
November.

1273
01:43:21,147 --> 01:43:22,787
Anywhere else

1274
01:43:22,787 --> 01:43:23,247
on the internet

1275
01:43:23,247 --> 01:43:23,707
where you want to

1276
01:43:23,707 --> 01:43:24,347
send our listeners

1277
01:43:24,347 --> 01:43:25,187
or anything you want

1278
01:43:25,187 --> 01:43:25,607
to promote?

1279
01:43:26,247 --> 01:43:28,247
I think if you're

1280
01:43:28,247 --> 01:43:29,107
going to read

1281
01:43:29,107 --> 01:43:30,127
some of my stuff,

1282
01:43:30,307 --> 01:43:30,887
there's some really

1283
01:43:30,887 --> 01:43:31,627
interesting articles

1284
01:43:31,627 --> 01:43:32,227
that are finding

1285
01:43:32,227 --> 01:43:33,047
a second life.

1286
01:43:33,407 --> 01:43:33,987
They're on my medium,

1287
01:43:34,107 --> 01:43:35,787
so tomerstorlight.medium.com.

1288
01:43:35,947 --> 01:43:36,807
There's one that people

1289
01:43:36,807 --> 01:43:37,587
are really enjoying

1290
01:43:37,587 --> 01:43:38,307
a lot lately.

1291
01:43:38,467 --> 01:43:39,107
I've had a lot of

1292
01:43:39,107 --> 01:43:40,287
requests to read it.

1293
01:43:40,527 --> 01:43:41,167
It's called

1294
01:43:41,167 --> 01:43:42,187
Hello, I am Bitcoin.

1295
01:43:42,807 --> 01:43:43,547
Oh yeah, that one.

1296
01:43:44,007 --> 01:43:44,667
Yeah, it's like

1297
01:43:44,667 --> 01:43:46,067
Bitcoin speaking to you.

1298
01:43:46,067 --> 01:43:48,387
I wrote in the first person view of mine.

1299
01:43:48,647 --> 01:43:49,887
So if you want to talk,

1300
01:43:49,987 --> 01:43:51,187
if you want to listen to Bitcoin,

1301
01:43:51,407 --> 01:43:52,727
that's a good one.

1302
01:43:52,887 --> 01:43:54,167
And another one that's been finding

1303
01:43:54,167 --> 01:43:56,967
a little bit more life and enthusiasm

1304
01:43:56,967 --> 01:43:59,847
is called Why People Wonder

1305
01:43:59,847 --> 01:44:01,687
if Bitcoin is Alien Technology,

1306
01:44:01,827 --> 01:44:03,287
where I talk about how different

1307
01:44:03,287 --> 01:44:04,627
Bitcoin's technology is

1308
01:44:04,627 --> 01:44:05,747
from everything else on Earth.

1309
01:44:06,127 --> 01:44:07,327
And so there's like four or five

1310
01:44:07,327 --> 01:44:08,967
unique things that Bitcoin does

1311
01:44:08,967 --> 01:44:10,227
that nothing else on Earth does.

1312
01:44:10,667 --> 01:44:11,847
And so it makes people wonder,

1313
01:44:12,227 --> 01:44:13,827
like, well, maybe Satoshi was an alien.

1314
01:44:13,827 --> 01:44:23,947
No, I've read them both and I love them. They're great pieces of work. So go check out Tomer's

1315
01:44:23,947 --> 01:44:26,527
stuff. And yeah, nice to have you on again.

1316
01:44:26,947 --> 01:44:29,427
Yeah, thank you for inviting me. It's been too long.

1317
01:44:29,807 --> 01:44:35,527
Yeah, it has. Live long and prosper. And to everyone else, this has been the Bitcoin

1318
01:44:35,527 --> 01:44:42,067
Infinity Show. Go like, subscribe and brush your teeth and all of that. And see you next time.

1319
01:44:42,487 --> 01:44:42,747
Cheers.

1320
01:44:42,747 --> 01:44:43,347
Thanks, Tomer.

1321
01:44:43,347 --> 01:44:43,947
Bye-bye.