1 00:00:00,236 --> 00:00:01,116 giacomo, welcome 2 00:00:01,116 --> 00:00:02,186 to the Freedom Footprint show again. 3 00:00:02,296 --> 00:00:02,946 My pleasure. 4 00:00:02,986 --> 00:00:03,826 Thank you for having me. 5 00:00:04,756 --> 00:00:07,596 Yeah, today we have our dear friend, the king of Swiss 6 00:00:07,746 --> 00:00:10,546 cheese, uh, Giacomo Socco on. 7 00:00:11,576 --> 00:00:13,566 Uh, great to be here in Lugano. 8 00:00:13,566 --> 00:00:16,116 I mean, you're a big part of this, uh, event. 9 00:00:16,366 --> 00:00:18,196 You're like speaking all the time. 10 00:00:19,256 --> 00:00:21,176 Yes, six speeches and you can probably tell 11 00:00:21,286 --> 00:00:21,996 from my voice right now. 12 00:00:23,106 --> 00:00:25,916 So, and we enjoy being here a lot. 13 00:00:26,006 --> 00:00:30,036 I mean, this place is beautiful, or at least I, I, I assume it 14 00:00:30,036 --> 00:00:31,556 is if it wasn't for the rain. 15 00:00:31,596 --> 00:00:31,756 So you can actually 16 00:00:32,286 --> 00:00:32,596 see that. 17 00:00:32,626 --> 00:00:33,716 We scammed people last year. 18 00:00:33,776 --> 00:00:35,516 It was very sunny in October. 19 00:00:35,706 --> 00:00:39,606 So everybody was eager to come back to this sunny Lugano in October 20 00:00:39,746 --> 00:00:41,166 and then we ragpulled the climate. 21 00:00:41,426 --> 00:00:41,766 Yeah. 22 00:00:41,936 --> 00:00:42,496 All right. 23 00:00:43,196 --> 00:00:47,196 So first question, uh, this is going to be a controversial one. 24 00:00:47,796 --> 00:00:49,376 Is Tether retarded? 25 00:00:50,636 --> 00:00:51,786 That's a, that's a good question. 26 00:00:52,166 --> 00:00:57,536 I think it's not necessarily retarded for a very, uh, for a very nuanced reason. 27 00:00:57,766 --> 00:01:00,916 There are two things you can do with blockchains that are not Bitcoin. 28 00:01:01,296 --> 00:01:03,966 Uh, well, there's one thing, scamming people. 29 00:01:03,966 --> 00:01:07,456 But the two things that you can do is, they depend on which 30 00:01:07,476 --> 00:01:08,656 people are you going to scam. 31 00:01:08,926 --> 00:01:12,626 If you're going to scam your investors, Because you just issue 32 00:01:12,626 --> 00:01:17,326 some kind of, uh, stupid, uh, share of a stupid enterprise, but you put 33 00:01:17,326 --> 00:01:21,456 a blockchain on that so that investor will be duped into, into investing. 34 00:01:21,756 --> 00:01:22,816 I think that's bad. 35 00:01:22,846 --> 00:01:25,896 That's like, that's a bad use of the power we have to scam people. 36 00:01:25,916 --> 00:01:28,406 But if you do scam only regulators. 37 00:01:28,666 --> 00:01:33,456 So if you want, if some people want to trade stuff and they really want to do 38 00:01:33,456 --> 00:01:37,606 that for innocent reasons and you cannot provide them a service because regulators 39 00:01:37,606 --> 00:01:41,236 are going to stop you from that with violence and you scam the regulators with 40 00:01:41,246 --> 00:01:45,486 some blockchain magic, I think that's a noble use of our ability to scam people. 41 00:01:45,706 --> 00:01:48,766 Tether is interesting because they are scamming the regulators 42 00:01:48,766 --> 00:01:49,796 with blockchain magic. 43 00:01:50,046 --> 00:01:52,716 Basically, they are not doing anything different from PayPal. 44 00:01:53,006 --> 00:01:55,566 But PayPal is heavily regulated in the secondary market that 45 00:01:55,566 --> 00:01:57,346 there is not because blockchain. 46 00:01:57,596 --> 00:01:59,546 So as long as it works, it's great. 47 00:01:59,576 --> 00:02:02,246 And can they, uh, dupe investors? 48 00:02:02,486 --> 00:02:06,606 Not really because the price of their product cannot go up by 49 00:02:06,606 --> 00:02:09,246 definition if the, because there is a blockchain on top of it. 50 00:02:09,466 --> 00:02:13,076 It can just not go down maybe as a credit denominated in dollars. 51 00:02:13,356 --> 00:02:17,476 So they are doing a dollar service, which is very Bitcoin friendly, which 52 00:02:17,486 --> 00:02:21,516 basically it's a Bitcoin friendly PayPal that uses blockchain magic 53 00:02:21,516 --> 00:02:25,631 thinking Two scam regulators into being more free on the secondary market. 54 00:02:25,961 --> 00:02:28,821 So overall, I think it's a good deal as long as it 55 00:02:28,821 --> 00:02:29,011 lasts. 56 00:02:29,131 --> 00:02:32,791 So it's not more of a scam than the US dollar 57 00:02:32,791 --> 00:02:33,291 is a scam? 58 00:02:33,561 --> 00:02:38,461 Well, it's more of a risk in a way because the underlying, uh, basically the 59 00:02:38,461 --> 00:02:44,081 underlying counterparty, the underlying, uh, collateral is already scam is dollar. 60 00:02:44,141 --> 00:02:45,971 So it's inflated, they could collapse. 61 00:02:46,401 --> 00:02:49,886 On top of that, you have, uh, on top of the base dollar, You also have 62 00:02:50,186 --> 00:02:55,936 the fact that these banks that Tether use, I must be trusted not to do 63 00:02:55,936 --> 00:02:57,936 excess fractional reserves and stuff. 64 00:02:58,146 --> 00:03:01,066 And on top of that, you have to trust the company itself, which of course 65 00:03:01,106 --> 00:03:02,956 could do additional fractional reserves. 66 00:03:02,966 --> 00:03:04,756 So it is increased risk. 67 00:03:05,586 --> 00:03:07,466 I don't think it's increasingly scammy. 68 00:03:07,676 --> 00:03:09,666 It's quite honest, especially in the latest. 69 00:03:10,981 --> 00:03:15,411 Communication, everything you can read from the CEO, Paolo, and we 70 00:03:15,411 --> 00:03:17,991 discussed here Lugano as well, it's pretty straightforward. 71 00:03:18,221 --> 00:03:21,721 He cannot put it exactly how I did for obvious legal reasons, 72 00:03:21,761 --> 00:03:23,541 otherwise the operation will be over. 73 00:03:23,781 --> 00:03:26,531 But I think that if you talk with him, the, the, the purpose 74 00:03:26,541 --> 00:03:28,461 of the operation is very simple. 75 00:03:28,621 --> 00:03:32,261 It's a company which is very Bitcoin first, and they just want 76 00:03:32,261 --> 00:03:35,661 a tool that can help people to move fiat into Bitcoin basically. 77 00:03:35,861 --> 00:03:40,421 Sometimes also For a realistic consideration that many people are 78 00:03:40,431 --> 00:03:45,591 not, are still scared of short term volatility, and they are still very, uh, 79 00:03:45,651 --> 00:03:49,021 cold on brand recognizement for Bitcoin. 80 00:03:49,041 --> 00:03:53,381 The dollar has the universal, uh, recognition that Bitcoin will 81 00:03:53,381 --> 00:03:54,691 have, but it's still missing. 82 00:03:54,891 --> 00:03:57,141 And Bitcoin, and the dollar will probably lose that. 83 00:03:57,151 --> 00:04:00,271 So eventually, I think that other things that is interesting is that 84 00:04:00,291 --> 00:04:04,416 the Tether, the company, It was born over this product that I just 85 00:04:04,416 --> 00:04:07,206 described, but then it went beyond it. 86 00:04:07,276 --> 00:04:09,736 One exception was Bitcoin, was TetherGold. 87 00:04:10,096 --> 00:04:11,306 I think it's very, very cool. 88 00:04:11,366 --> 00:04:15,546 TetherGold is just e gold with, uh, it's basically they have physical 89 00:04:15,546 --> 00:04:18,526 gold in a vault here in Switzerland, and the issue is TetherGold. 90 00:04:18,686 --> 00:04:21,566 This is just like e gold, but it's not in the U. 91 00:04:21,566 --> 00:04:21,706 S. 92 00:04:22,146 --> 00:04:24,986 So it's probably more resilient to regulatory aggression because 93 00:04:24,996 --> 00:04:26,466 Switzerland is a little bit more serious. 94 00:04:26,806 --> 00:04:29,366 And it is, uh, it is done after Bitcoin. 95 00:04:29,696 --> 00:04:32,836 So there is the, the blockchain magical thinking on top of it, which 96 00:04:32,836 --> 00:04:36,126 is making, increasing the plausible deniability for the secondary market. 97 00:04:36,156 --> 00:04:39,096 So Tetra Gold, I mean, I will make this classification. 98 00:04:39,136 --> 00:04:41,956 Bitcoin is the best and it's the final solution. 99 00:04:42,166 --> 00:04:43,716 And we have to go Bitcoin. 100 00:04:43,926 --> 00:04:44,946 There is no way around it. 101 00:04:44,986 --> 00:04:45,326 And. 102 00:04:45,711 --> 00:04:47,081 Tether people would agree. 103 00:04:47,091 --> 00:04:49,261 You can find it every interview that they would agree. 104 00:04:49,511 --> 00:04:54,331 The second best would be physical gold, but it's still hard to try to, to, uh, 105 00:04:54,351 --> 00:04:58,691 basically the reason gold is not as good as Bitcoin is that it's not digital. 106 00:04:58,691 --> 00:04:59,721 You cannot transfer it. 107 00:05:00,041 --> 00:05:03,851 Then there is this digital gold, which is tether gold that is basically. 108 00:05:04,146 --> 00:05:08,606 Um, trusted, but with probably good enough guarantees. 109 00:05:08,616 --> 00:05:11,436 It's like an eagle that will not be likely shut down. 110 00:05:11,706 --> 00:05:15,986 Then there is the theta dollar, which is worse because the dollar is going 111 00:05:15,986 --> 00:05:17,946 to be inflated into nothing eventually. 112 00:05:18,396 --> 00:05:23,111 And because While Tether can hold the gold themselves in a, in a 113 00:05:23,111 --> 00:05:27,251 mountain, it's a very cool mountain base in Switzerland, they cannot 114 00:05:27,251 --> 00:05:29,041 do that with physical dollar cash. 115 00:05:29,101 --> 00:05:33,521 There's no bank that does many billions in physical cash, so it's more risky, 116 00:05:33,821 --> 00:05:37,281 but it's still a useful tool for some people to approach Bitcoin eventually. 117 00:05:37,481 --> 00:05:38,726 I think we don't need. 118 00:05:39,976 --> 00:05:40,466 stablecoin. 119 00:05:40,876 --> 00:05:44,606 But I think that if done honestly, they can help somebody and not 120 00:05:44,616 --> 00:05:47,236 hurt Bitcoin because eventually, I mean, they're not stable. 121 00:05:47,266 --> 00:05:48,366 They're just back into something which 122 00:05:49,296 --> 00:05:50,826 is very oxymoronic name. 123 00:05:50,886 --> 00:05:51,156 Right. 124 00:05:51,156 --> 00:05:51,216 Well, 125 00:05:51,646 --> 00:05:52,466 I hate that name. 126 00:05:52,706 --> 00:05:57,346 Those are basically blockchain marketed fiat credits. 127 00:05:58,716 --> 00:06:02,896 So, so could the like, tether gold, could they potentially 128 00:06:02,896 --> 00:06:05,326 do a fractional reserve on 129 00:06:05,326 --> 00:06:05,506 that? 130 00:06:05,536 --> 00:06:08,986 Like legally they have a, they have a contract that's, uh, that says that 131 00:06:08,986 --> 00:06:10,636 they don't, and they have auditors. 132 00:06:10,641 --> 00:06:14,026 And auditors say that they can, so technically for the Bitcoin 133 00:06:14,026 --> 00:06:19,336 mindset, where it is not like you, uh, don't be evil, but can be evil. 134 00:06:19,336 --> 00:06:19,816 Oh yeah. 135 00:06:19,816 --> 00:06:25,096 Uh, they can physically, uh, but they will have to, uh, scam or bribe the auditor. 136 00:06:25,096 --> 00:06:25,336 So it's hard. 137 00:06:26,016 --> 00:06:30,466 While with dollars, you mean, uh, there is probably more, uh, even 138 00:06:30,466 --> 00:06:34,416 if I didn't trust the detector guy, dollar is more complex as a topic 139 00:06:34,416 --> 00:06:35,856 because they cannot have the cash. 140 00:06:35,976 --> 00:06:39,486 They will have commercial paper that will, a lot of nuances. 141 00:06:39,486 --> 00:06:40,536 With gold, there is no nuances. 142 00:06:41,226 --> 00:06:44,306 There are physical, uh, gold bullions 143 00:06:50,756 --> 00:06:51,886 inside the Lord of the Rings or something. 144 00:06:52,636 --> 00:06:55,426 If you, if you, I mean, if you are very nice with it, 145 00:06:55,426 --> 00:06:56,876 there may be some day you will 146 00:06:56,956 --> 00:06:57,446 see it. 147 00:06:57,446 --> 00:06:57,496 We'll see. 148 00:06:58,246 --> 00:06:58,636 All right. 149 00:06:58,716 --> 00:07:02,416 So, so this leads us into risks of fractional reserve. 150 00:07:02,416 --> 00:07:07,256 So So you Custodial lightning wallets, we had this conversation with Obi yesterday, 151 00:07:07,416 --> 00:07:13,286 uh, uh, is there a risk, do you see a risk in that, that, uh, wallets of Satoshi will 152 00:07:13,286 --> 00:07:17,166 all of a sudden start, you know, handing out more bitcoins than they actually have? 153 00:07:17,176 --> 00:07:17,416 Like 154 00:07:17,436 --> 00:07:17,706 what? 155 00:07:18,346 --> 00:07:18,916 There is. 156 00:07:18,966 --> 00:07:22,836 I think that the reason that, uh, it will be quite evident is that what 157 00:07:22,906 --> 00:07:28,176 fractional reserve banking does is to reduce the custody, uh, the custody fee. 158 00:07:28,491 --> 00:07:32,701 And to increase, uh, uh, interest, uh, uh, give away to the user. 159 00:07:33,001 --> 00:07:37,911 So when you get to the Satoshi is paying you to use it, probably 160 00:07:37,911 --> 00:07:39,821 you should start being concerned. 161 00:07:39,821 --> 00:07:41,331 So it's technically possible. 162 00:07:41,491 --> 00:07:44,911 What you use when you use, well, the Satoshi is you are basically 163 00:07:45,161 --> 00:07:48,791 asking a friend to use Lighting Network for you in your name. 164 00:07:49,116 --> 00:07:51,976 Which, I mean, if the friend is reliable and the money is not that 165 00:07:52,006 --> 00:07:56,726 much, I, frankly, I don't think that Volato Satoshi or Albi, the Custodian 166 00:07:56,726 --> 00:07:58,156 version, will be censored very soon. 167 00:07:58,156 --> 00:08:01,596 And I don't think they will rug pull very soon for the simple 168 00:08:01,596 --> 00:08:02,976 reason that the money is not much. 169 00:08:03,646 --> 00:08:06,916 So it's not enough money to rug pull, not enough money to censor yet. 170 00:08:07,471 --> 00:08:11,821 If it became the cornerstone of Bitcoin, like some exchanges are, then the 171 00:08:11,821 --> 00:08:13,001 incentives will change completely. 172 00:08:14,101 --> 00:08:18,331 Bill, they're very useful tools, I mean, that you can do a ton of things with them. 173 00:08:18,421 --> 00:08:21,751 I was very critical before, because my point was, if you want to do 174 00:08:21,751 --> 00:08:26,121 custody at the margin, so Alfini said, Bitcoin base chain doesn't scale. 175 00:08:26,446 --> 00:08:27,416 But it's still cool. 176 00:08:27,446 --> 00:08:28,006 We have the asset. 177 00:08:28,316 --> 00:08:30,026 Now we can build custody on top of that. 178 00:08:30,046 --> 00:08:34,436 Illegal custody, like anarchist kind of, uh, like Bitcoin banks. 179 00:08:34,436 --> 00:08:37,136 Some people thought that Al was talking about actual banks. 180 00:08:37,146 --> 00:08:42,426 He was talking about people on Tor just building a reputation as a bank, because 181 00:08:42,426 --> 00:08:43,916 you don't need any paperwork for that. 182 00:08:44,216 --> 00:08:45,036 Just give me Bitcoin. 183 00:08:45,276 --> 00:08:45,946 Trust me, bro. 184 00:08:46,156 --> 00:08:47,126 I will give it back to you. 185 00:08:47,456 --> 00:08:49,306 That can happen at the margin. 186 00:08:49,676 --> 00:08:53,426 It was a sad trade off to make, but it was a trade off that we had to make. 187 00:08:53,556 --> 00:08:58,126 With Lightning, with the techniques of trustless UTXO sharing, we can have, 188 00:08:58,556 --> 00:09:03,086 uh, one single Bitcoin TXO, which is shared by more people without trusting 189 00:09:03,086 --> 00:09:08,966 each other, or at least in some, uh, within some security, uh, scenario. 190 00:09:09,386 --> 00:09:10,696 And that's cool, even better. 191 00:09:10,696 --> 00:09:11,666 So Lightning is better. 192 00:09:11,916 --> 00:09:14,636 So my point was, if you want to trust, Trust. 193 00:09:14,636 --> 00:09:17,326 If you want Lightning, which is trustless, go Lightning. 194 00:09:17,606 --> 00:09:20,416 But what's the point of putting trust on top of Lightning? 195 00:09:20,666 --> 00:09:22,966 And I changed my mind because I think there is a point. 196 00:09:23,246 --> 00:09:25,346 It's a very nice layerization. 197 00:09:25,696 --> 00:09:29,486 You have the main chain, then you change your security model for the second layer. 198 00:09:29,836 --> 00:09:32,886 And then even actually Lightning is two layers in one because you 199 00:09:32,886 --> 00:09:34,306 have the channel and the routing. 200 00:09:34,496 --> 00:09:37,496 When you go routing, you are still changing your security model. 201 00:09:37,756 --> 00:09:41,106 Routing nodes is, uh, are very, are dangerous. 202 00:09:41,106 --> 00:09:44,386 Like there was an attack discovered two days ago, well, a few days ago. 203 00:09:44,816 --> 00:09:48,076 When you route Lightning, you, your funds are more in danger. 204 00:09:48,446 --> 00:09:52,756 Then on top of that, you can, you can basically serve people with credit. 205 00:09:53,221 --> 00:09:56,091 But why put the crate directly on top of the base layer? 206 00:09:56,091 --> 00:10:02,771 It's nicer, actually more elegant, if you give the users a very smooth way to go 207 00:10:02,771 --> 00:10:05,901 from trust to trustless without big jumps. 208 00:10:06,221 --> 00:10:08,601 So you start with, for example, Albi is very good. 209 00:10:08,601 --> 00:10:11,331 You start with the pocket silver, trusted. 210 00:10:11,811 --> 00:10:13,341 Uh, they will ragpoll you. 211 00:10:13,411 --> 00:10:15,091 Okay, so what is pocket silver? 212 00:10:15,261 --> 00:10:16,611 They will confiscate it. 213 00:10:16,641 --> 00:10:17,471 Ah, go for it. 214 00:10:17,501 --> 00:10:18,621 It's just my pocket silver. 215 00:10:18,861 --> 00:10:21,101 You increase the amount of money you have to move. 216 00:10:21,541 --> 00:10:25,441 Oh, now you probably want your node still on Lightning, but maybe you want 217 00:10:25,451 --> 00:10:28,531 to route because you're reckless, you want to do business, you want to be 218 00:10:28,641 --> 00:10:32,681 safer long term, and you don't want to have a watchtower to take, to take 219 00:10:32,681 --> 00:10:37,531 control, then maybe go to a Lightning leaf that's not routing, it's much safer. 220 00:10:37,856 --> 00:10:41,936 If you want to be safer, just close the channel and go back on chain, 221 00:10:42,206 --> 00:10:47,666 uh, so you can stay there and the, uh, on Lightning, the more time 222 00:10:47,836 --> 00:10:50,076 passes, the more risk you get. 223 00:10:50,316 --> 00:10:53,416 On base chain, the more time passes, the less risk you get. 224 00:10:53,416 --> 00:10:54,036 So that's great. 225 00:10:54,366 --> 00:10:55,386 So it's a nice thing. 226 00:10:55,446 --> 00:10:56,776 Uh, I think we should not. 227 00:10:57,701 --> 00:11:03,151 Uh, I think we should culturally fight for non custodianship always, uh, ever. 228 00:11:03,151 --> 00:11:08,361 So custody is okay, should not be a meme because it's like, it's like 229 00:11:08,361 --> 00:11:13,381 when you, when you eat or when you indulge in any kind of like a high 230 00:11:13,381 --> 00:11:16,251 time preference thing, uh, it's okay. 231 00:11:16,291 --> 00:11:17,621 Eating is a high time preference. 232 00:11:17,961 --> 00:11:21,661 Well, eating, eating garbage, especially, uh, or, or smoking or whatever. 233 00:11:22,126 --> 00:11:26,736 Well, there is no need to create a culture that normalizes that, uh, if 234 00:11:26,736 --> 00:11:31,636 you create a culture that, that's, that creates the, uh, that, that specifies 235 00:11:31,976 --> 00:11:33,716 the long term problem with that. 236 00:11:33,746 --> 00:11:38,726 So a culture of caution, then people will still ignore the culture and 237 00:11:38,726 --> 00:11:40,886 make a cheated meal or something. 238 00:11:41,516 --> 00:11:46,486 So you don't need to praise cheat meals, just praise the right diet, 239 00:11:46,836 --> 00:11:49,836 culturally speaking, and be tolerant with the fact that people will. 240 00:11:50,256 --> 00:11:53,346 Cheat meal, because that's fine because I mean, YOLO. 241 00:11:54,736 --> 00:11:59,056 So, so is custodial lightning layer three in your opinion? 242 00:11:59,056 --> 00:11:59,806 Well, I think the 243 00:11:59,806 --> 00:12:02,846 lightings are two layers, at least. 244 00:12:03,236 --> 00:12:06,426 There are many layers inside lightning, but the real trust 245 00:12:06,426 --> 00:12:07,986 related layers are two different. 246 00:12:08,476 --> 00:12:12,486 Uh, channel and routing are very different trade offs, and I think the 247 00:12:12,496 --> 00:12:16,606 more we go on, the more it's clear that routing is way more dangerous 248 00:12:16,636 --> 00:12:20,396 than just having a channel with your counterparty and going back and forth. 249 00:12:20,756 --> 00:12:26,236 So we say that lighting is a lighting channel, or in the future, a L2 channel, 250 00:12:26,276 --> 00:12:27,736 an ARC channel, an ARC provider. 251 00:12:27,736 --> 00:12:29,606 So UTXO sharing. 252 00:12:30,106 --> 00:12:33,846 So sharing your Bitcoin TXO is layer two, in my opinion, that's 253 00:12:34,196 --> 00:12:35,466 the most elegant definition. 254 00:12:35,856 --> 00:12:39,696 Routing on, atomic routing on top of your TXO sharing is layer three. 255 00:12:40,146 --> 00:12:48,406 Uh, and then, uh, asking, uh, a friend to keep, uh, a channel for you, but it's not 256 00:12:48,406 --> 00:12:50,146 yours, that would be probably layer four. 257 00:12:50,566 --> 00:12:50,886 Okay, 258 00:12:50,886 --> 00:12:51,876 so what's an Opendime? 259 00:12:51,886 --> 00:12:52,316 What layer 260 00:12:52,316 --> 00:12:52,696 is that? 261 00:12:52,756 --> 00:12:53,986 That's, that's very interesting. 262 00:12:53,986 --> 00:12:59,396 I would say that, uh, that's, uh, Opendime is basically, uh, trust plus plus. 263 00:12:59,436 --> 00:13:01,936 It's, it's a very badass kind of trust. 264 00:13:02,216 --> 00:13:04,736 You still have to trust another provider basically. 265 00:13:05,036 --> 00:13:08,856 So it's cool, but it's probably a layer four with, with some 266 00:13:08,856 --> 00:13:13,336 kind of, well, probably you go, when you discuss this stuff with 267 00:13:13,336 --> 00:13:14,766 Maxi Morlowski, you start to go. 268 00:13:14,846 --> 00:13:16,526 Thread three dimension with layers. 269 00:13:16,526 --> 00:13:17,176 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 270 00:13:17,176 --> 00:13:19,076 Basically slight layers going down. 271 00:13:19,076 --> 00:13:20,726 So I, I'm not as good. 272 00:13:20,726 --> 00:13:20,876 I'm 273 00:13:20,876 --> 00:13:25,346 envisioning like the layers in an Asher painting, like going into, so, 274 00:13:25,976 --> 00:13:33,271 alright, so, so I had this idea, um, a year back or two, uh, about like, As 275 00:13:33,571 --> 00:13:38,291 Bitcoin scales, this is connected to the time preference thing, that people 276 00:13:38,291 --> 00:13:42,711 will use money less and less, like, and will spend less because, because of the 277 00:13:42,721 --> 00:13:46,911 time preferencing, you're incentivized to prioritize quality over quantity. 278 00:13:46,911 --> 00:13:52,341 So do you think that, like, in general, do people with, is 279 00:13:52,381 --> 00:13:53,951 that something you see play out? 280 00:13:54,246 --> 00:13:54,966 That's a cool idea. 281 00:13:54,966 --> 00:13:55,306 Yeah. 282 00:13:55,556 --> 00:13:59,956 Bitcoin can scale because you reduce the need to use, uh, monetary transaction. 283 00:14:00,406 --> 00:14:02,226 That's, that's, I think that's a fair assumption. 284 00:14:02,706 --> 00:14:08,196 Still, maybe scaling as a technological problem is still challenging and 285 00:14:08,206 --> 00:14:09,936 interesting, but that's social. 286 00:14:10,326 --> 00:14:11,346 Version is also very 287 00:14:11,346 --> 00:14:11,826 interesting. 288 00:14:11,826 --> 00:14:11,886 Yeah. 289 00:14:11,886 --> 00:14:15,396 Because it's never talked about in the technical discussions about scaling. 290 00:14:15,636 --> 00:14:20,186 And there's another thing to it, like, um, the, with Bitcoin, uh, 291 00:14:20,246 --> 00:14:25,316 with the deflationary currency, uh, or money, you, you're incentivized 292 00:14:25,316 --> 00:14:26,606 to lower your term preference. 293 00:14:26,606 --> 00:14:26,786 Right? 294 00:14:27,236 --> 00:14:30,706 Uh, but the other thing is that you're also at least now, 295 00:14:31,036 --> 00:14:35,206 uh, incentivized to help other Bitcoiners with whatever they do. 296 00:14:35,536 --> 00:14:38,656 Because we help each other, we help Bitcoin, and we all win. 297 00:14:39,851 --> 00:14:44,291 And I don't see a point in time where that incentive necessarily goes away. 298 00:14:44,291 --> 00:14:49,151 So if we're just incentivized to be awesome to one another, I see like people 299 00:14:49,156 --> 00:14:53,471 interacting voluntarily and trading other things than Bitcoin might like. 300 00:14:53,471 --> 00:14:59,371 Services mostly like Bitcoiners, like this, this thing, for instance, is 301 00:14:59,371 --> 00:15:00,751 a transaction between me and you. 302 00:15:00,751 --> 00:15:00,811 Yeah. 303 00:15:00,851 --> 00:15:03,091 And we're not spending money and we're not spending, we're not You. 304 00:15:03,801 --> 00:15:06,661 clogging the chain at all by doing this. 305 00:15:07,311 --> 00:15:11,261 So, so is that a part of the scaling problem and solution? 306 00:15:11,951 --> 00:15:12,791 Yeah, I think it is. 307 00:15:12,791 --> 00:15:13,641 Let's put it this way. 308 00:15:13,961 --> 00:15:17,671 Money is useful aside a trust circle. 309 00:15:18,061 --> 00:15:20,781 So within the trust economy, the gift economy of family 310 00:15:20,781 --> 00:15:22,211 monies is just redundant. 311 00:15:22,481 --> 00:15:25,206 You just exchange You just be nice with each other. 312 00:15:25,506 --> 00:15:30,126 And things may just, uh, even out over the long term. 313 00:15:30,356 --> 00:15:35,156 Maybe the parent is taking care for the child, not for any return, but 314 00:15:35,156 --> 00:15:39,416 then maybe when the parent is old, there will be some kind of, that. 315 00:15:43,401 --> 00:15:47,851 Bitcoin is a good money, but it's also a kind of money that as a side effect can 316 00:15:47,931 --> 00:15:52,861 increase trust circles in a very unique way, so that's a fair way to put it. 317 00:15:52,871 --> 00:15:53,151 Yeah, 318 00:15:53,331 --> 00:15:58,611 so if you follow that thought vector far off into the future, is that like, 319 00:15:58,821 --> 00:16:04,151 because I find this so, like a beautiful paradox that don't trust verify. 320 00:16:04,666 --> 00:16:08,286 enables us to trust one another more because you, you don't have the 321 00:16:08,286 --> 00:16:10,166 incentive to try to cheat and system. 322 00:16:10,406 --> 00:16:14,456 And you know that if more and more people are living in this world, I mean, I, I 323 00:16:14,456 --> 00:16:18,186 trust the people here at this conference way more than I trust the normie. 324 00:16:20,046 --> 00:16:24,876 So, so, so if we really try to extrapolate that, do we get. 325 00:16:25,211 --> 00:16:28,971 To a place where the necessity for money to exist at all, 326 00:16:28,981 --> 00:16:33,791 it's just, I think that you can increase the number, number, let's say, of trust 327 00:16:33,791 --> 00:16:35,511 to a certain point, but not at infinite. 328 00:16:35,511 --> 00:16:38,941 I think that eventually there is more bitcoins that you can even understand. 329 00:16:39,071 --> 00:16:39,381 No, but 330 00:16:39,391 --> 00:16:43,611 not infinite, but like trending towards, and will that ever be a 331 00:16:43,651 --> 00:16:44,341 trajectory? 332 00:16:44,341 --> 00:16:47,881 Like in your mind, you still have to perceive a community of like minded 333 00:16:47,881 --> 00:16:49,531 people working toward the same goal. 334 00:16:49,881 --> 00:16:50,891 Now you have it in Bitcoin. 335 00:16:50,891 --> 00:16:51,466 Yeah. 336 00:16:51,576 --> 00:16:55,956 You have, you have an internal fractal of different cultures and motives and 337 00:16:55,956 --> 00:16:59,126 trends, but you still have a unitary bit. 338 00:16:59,136 --> 00:17:03,426 We are here for Bitcoin and you can see that you can feel that that, I 339 00:17:03,426 --> 00:17:07,366 don't know if that can scale to, for example, really millions of people. 340 00:17:08,486 --> 00:17:13,506 So they like rock and roll scales to billions, but being a rocker 341 00:17:13,686 --> 00:17:17,766 with, let's say with, with bicycles and motorbikes, they scale. 342 00:17:18,016 --> 00:17:19,576 But being a biker is another thing. 343 00:17:20,206 --> 00:17:23,606 So then the Bitcoin culture, which is what you're describing will, will 344 00:17:23,636 --> 00:17:28,066 persist, but we'll probably not grow outside of what the biker culture will do. 345 00:17:28,066 --> 00:17:28,426 Okay. 346 00:17:28,436 --> 00:17:31,666 So it's, uh, yeah, fair point. 347 00:17:32,112 --> 00:17:34,122 Okay, we have some big news. 348 00:17:34,492 --> 00:17:36,732 We have a new lead sponsor, AmberApp. 349 00:17:37,572 --> 00:17:40,172 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with loads of 373 00:18:44,992 --> 00:18:49,112 other coins using the Wabi Sabi protocol, so they're private on the other end. 374 00:18:49,652 --> 00:18:53,162 Your tracks are covered so you can work on expanding your Freedom Footprint 375 00:18:53,312 --> 00:18:54,992 without worrying about your privacy. 376 00:18:55,872 --> 00:18:56,782 So, check out wasabiwallet. 377 00:18:56,782 --> 00:18:59,952 io and download Wasabi today. 378 00:19:00,211 --> 00:19:04,951 There's another thing adjacent to this, which is another, what I've been eager 379 00:19:04,971 --> 00:19:07,471 to talk to you about for a long time is this idea I've been talking about 380 00:19:07,471 --> 00:19:12,101 for a while of you, that, you know, We are the bitcoins, like the people, 381 00:19:12,101 --> 00:19:15,341 they, they, since it's only keeping a secret, they exist in your head. 382 00:19:15,791 --> 00:19:19,241 The node is not the raspberry pie, it's the guy deciding to 383 00:19:19,271 --> 00:19:20,741 buy one and run the software. 384 00:19:20,741 --> 00:19:24,901 And the, the miners, the miner is not the asic, it's the guy who 385 00:19:24,961 --> 00:19:26,431 chooses to buy one and run the hard. 386 00:19:26,671 --> 00:19:28,642 So what do you say to that? 387 00:19:28,647 --> 00:19:28,711 What? 388 00:19:28,711 --> 00:19:29,961 Like what's your angle? 389 00:19:30,171 --> 00:19:30,621 I agree. 390 00:19:30,621 --> 00:19:31,881 People is layer zero. 391 00:19:31,881 --> 00:19:35,841 But I mean, this also, this is true for Bitcoin and it's an important point 392 00:19:35,841 --> 00:19:40,326 because, People may think that the Bitcoin is secure, but just by automatic processes 393 00:19:40,366 --> 00:19:42,836 is actually secure by human incentives. 394 00:19:42,856 --> 00:19:43,166 So 395 00:19:43,316 --> 00:19:45,026 by human, backed by human action. 396 00:19:45,036 --> 00:19:45,616 It's human action. 397 00:19:45,656 --> 00:19:46,006 Yeah. 398 00:19:46,256 --> 00:19:49,056 Which is a point that is made, I think very well by Erik 399 00:19:49,116 --> 00:19:50,946 Voskville in Cryptoeconomics. 400 00:19:50,966 --> 00:19:52,996 There is this book that makes this point pretty well. 401 00:19:53,196 --> 00:19:56,566 It's just a human act, human actors, basically. 402 00:19:56,826 --> 00:20:00,226 And then you, these human actors can use tools and this tool can change. 403 00:20:00,546 --> 00:20:03,456 The relative power or the relative, uh, the incentive. 404 00:20:03,456 --> 00:20:08,876 So tools matter, but is, but, but human action matters more and the more 405 00:20:08,916 --> 00:20:13,426 tools are tuned to help human action and to synchronize, coordinate human 406 00:20:13,426 --> 00:20:15,106 action, the better the tools are. 407 00:20:15,576 --> 00:20:19,606 Uh, there may be an even deeper point, like, uh, this may sound 408 00:20:19,606 --> 00:20:24,588 crazy, but my deep conviction from a philosophical level as a, as a former 409 00:20:24,588 --> 00:20:32,021 physicist is that, uh, People are layer zero of reality, not just Bitcoin. 410 00:20:32,061 --> 00:20:37,571 I think that, uh, well, materialism, consensus, which I think is very fiat, is 411 00:20:37,571 --> 00:20:42,231 that, uh, you have fields or particles, but mostly fields in modern physics. 412 00:20:42,471 --> 00:20:46,011 And then as an emergent phenomenon, uh, you have yourself. 413 00:20:46,481 --> 00:20:48,591 And I think it's actually the other way around. 414 00:20:48,751 --> 00:20:49,471 You have selves. 415 00:20:50,006 --> 00:20:52,206 You have a perception, you have consciousness, you have 416 00:20:52,206 --> 00:20:53,976 choice as a fundamental layer. 417 00:20:54,176 --> 00:21:00,856 And that has been demonstrated to a point by, for example, David 418 00:21:01,306 --> 00:21:03,846 Hoffman or other physicists. 419 00:21:04,196 --> 00:21:08,656 When you assume a network of conscious agents, you can build... 420 00:21:09,136 --> 00:21:13,176 Uh, general relativity and, and, and a draft of quantum physics. 421 00:21:13,576 --> 00:21:17,926 Uh, so basically, or also when you go deep into quantum mechanics, they, 422 00:21:17,946 --> 00:21:21,146 one of the interpretations of quantum mechanics that I think is the least, uh, 423 00:21:22,356 --> 00:21:27,886 it's the least, uh, uh, convoluted is basically assuming the observer as the 424 00:21:27,886 --> 00:21:32,436 fundamental unit of physics and everything outside of that actually has the 425 00:21:32,476 --> 00:21:36,301 emergent, apparent, temporary Phenomenon. 426 00:21:36,631 --> 00:21:40,561 So in this way I like, I like to framing it because I think that not 427 00:21:40,561 --> 00:21:44,971 just Bitcoin is made by people, but like chairs, tables, and stars, everything. 428 00:21:44,971 --> 00:21:45,091 Yeah. 429 00:21:45,681 --> 00:21:46,771 literally stars. 430 00:21:46,861 --> 00:21:46,921 Yeah. 431 00:21:46,921 --> 00:21:47,401 I read a, 432 00:21:47,401 --> 00:21:51,151 a really interesting theory once called the the meme theory of Everything. 433 00:21:51,201 --> 00:21:54,381 Uh, what, what we, what we define as objective reality. 434 00:21:54,381 --> 00:21:58,311 This table here, for instance, is, is where our memes collide. 435 00:21:58,311 --> 00:22:04,881 So it's where, where the consciousness is, consciousness is, uh, uh, , where, 436 00:22:04,886 --> 00:22:06,291 where they sort of intertwine. 437 00:22:06,981 --> 00:22:14,231 Uh, but that leads to all sorts of other, uh, strange, um, Realizations 438 00:22:14,231 --> 00:22:17,831 like that there is a meme horizon, for instance, and we couldn't sync with 439 00:22:18,211 --> 00:22:21,191 brems brains outside of the solar system. 440 00:22:21,451 --> 00:22:22,861 Well, minds even more 441 00:22:22,861 --> 00:22:23,001 than 442 00:22:23,001 --> 00:22:23,321 brains. 443 00:22:24,321 --> 00:22:25,251 I mean, minds. 444 00:22:25,251 --> 00:22:25,501 Yeah. 445 00:22:25,501 --> 00:22:25,731 Yeah. 446 00:22:25,731 --> 00:22:26,821 That's a better term to use. 447 00:22:27,151 --> 00:22:33,366 Uh, uh, for instance, it would explain why the Apollo, the signals from the 448 00:22:33,366 --> 00:22:38,916 first Apollo satellite, um, is, are so strange, um, and why they get, why the 449 00:22:38,916 --> 00:22:43,116 signal is getting weirder and weirder, it was also, would also explain why we 450 00:22:43,126 --> 00:22:47,076 haven't seen intelligent life anywhere else in the universe and stuff like this. 451 00:22:47,076 --> 00:22:48,116 The Fermi Paradox. 452 00:22:48,116 --> 00:22:48,646 Yeah, yeah. 453 00:22:48,806 --> 00:22:54,276 Well, I will probably not go as far as to think that this, uh, that my ontology, uh, 454 00:22:54,296 --> 00:22:56,656 which is basically a mind first ontology. 455 00:22:56,966 --> 00:23:01,076 We'll change, we'll make predictable, observable changes to the mainstream view. 456 00:23:01,126 --> 00:23:05,156 No, I think they're basically compatible, but I think it's what I, what I see 457 00:23:05,156 --> 00:23:09,016 is basically, uh, some people will say that what we're discussing is 458 00:23:09,016 --> 00:23:12,756 counterintuitive or even they say, um, quantum mechanics is counterintuitive. 459 00:23:13,046 --> 00:23:16,666 I think it's not when you are a child, uh, or when you didn't 460 00:23:17,196 --> 00:23:19,126 study anything, your assumption is. 461 00:23:19,516 --> 00:23:23,696 When you close your eyes, the world outside of you disappears and every 462 00:23:23,696 --> 00:23:27,276 phenomenon is basically a will of somebody, like the sun is, I mean, even 463 00:23:27,276 --> 00:23:30,906 primitive cultures, like everything has a will, everything is some kind of, 464 00:23:31,126 --> 00:23:35,786 so I perceive myself, I want things, I choose things, I perceive things. 465 00:23:36,311 --> 00:23:41,261 So everything else outside of me must be quite like myself to some degree. 466 00:23:41,431 --> 00:23:45,191 So the first assumption is that everything is mindful, everything is 467 00:23:45,191 --> 00:23:47,561 basically free, not deterministic. 468 00:23:47,821 --> 00:23:50,681 Then when, and also everything is probably discrete. 469 00:23:50,711 --> 00:23:53,391 You don't get continuous when you, when you think about that, 470 00:23:53,611 --> 00:23:54,731 you don't get deterministic. 471 00:23:54,811 --> 00:23:59,511 Then you study reality and you focus on some very small subset 472 00:23:59,551 --> 00:24:03,751 of phenomenons that are repeatable and intersubjective and repeatable. 473 00:24:03,921 --> 00:24:08,111 Death phenomenons are not very much, not very many, but they are important because 474 00:24:08,111 --> 00:24:12,571 if you harvest them, you can build tools, machines, and you become more powerful. 475 00:24:12,891 --> 00:24:18,691 So we created a, basically a philosophy during the very modern times, like 476 00:24:18,701 --> 00:24:23,696 after the 17th century, where everything that the child would think is wrong. 477 00:24:23,736 --> 00:24:27,236 And then you grow up and you learn that the world is deterministic, 478 00:24:27,396 --> 00:24:29,246 just atoms bouncing around. 479 00:24:29,476 --> 00:24:31,246 And the world is, there is no free will. 480 00:24:31,436 --> 00:24:31,876 Everything's deterministic. 481 00:24:31,926 --> 00:24:34,046 There is no consciousness, just a delusion. 482 00:24:34,306 --> 00:24:36,316 There is a, and there is continuity. 483 00:24:36,336 --> 00:24:41,956 There is no, there is no discreteness, but then you get to quantum mechanics and you 484 00:24:41,956 --> 00:24:43,836 break down literally all of the things. 485 00:24:44,046 --> 00:24:45,416 So you can react in two ways. 486 00:24:45,651 --> 00:24:49,161 One way is to say, okay, I was right the first time and this, 487 00:24:49,161 --> 00:24:52,671 this emergent AP appearance of determines is just a special case. 488 00:24:52,671 --> 00:24:53,661 Yeah, just an emergent case. 489 00:24:53,931 --> 00:24:59,451 Or the second reaction is I really love, love my mechanics, mechanistic, um, 490 00:24:59,511 --> 00:25:01,761 ontology, metaphysic, and we defend it. 491 00:25:02,041 --> 00:25:03,661 By creating convoluted theory. 492 00:25:03,811 --> 00:25:08,011 So you get like many words and you get like, or super determinism, and 493 00:25:08,011 --> 00:25:13,471 you have to desperately try to keep your 19th century, 18th century 494 00:25:13,561 --> 00:25:18,301 worldview, which is basically broken by actual, actual empirical evidence. 495 00:25:18,421 --> 00:25:19,381 So you have to shoe hor it. 496 00:25:19,381 --> 00:25:23,491 It, this reminds me so much about the arguments made by Hoppa in, 497 00:25:23,521 --> 00:25:27,751 in, uh, uh, economic science and the AAN method, which is one of my 498 00:25:27,751 --> 00:25:30,031 favorite books, uh, where he is. 499 00:25:30,766 --> 00:25:35,446 He points out that what Mises really did was, was, uh, connect the two 500 00:25:35,446 --> 00:25:37,896 worlds, uh, via the axiom of action. 501 00:25:38,366 --> 00:25:42,886 So even if an empiricist would say that we can never say that something is 502 00:25:42,916 --> 00:25:48,116 absolutely true, we can only say that, uh, we can, we can do approximations 503 00:25:48,196 --> 00:25:51,396 and we can get closer to the truth, but never to the actual point of truth. 504 00:25:51,826 --> 00:25:55,536 But that statement in itself is an absolute statement. 505 00:25:55,736 --> 00:25:59,346 So it requires you to have a, an absolute truth, like, which is. 506 00:25:59,556 --> 00:26:03,246 Connected to this from the, everything starts from the individual. 507 00:26:03,516 --> 00:26:07,386 Performative contradiction for anything, which is not, uh, yeah, I agree. 508 00:26:07,576 --> 00:26:13,066 It's if you, if you want, it's also the good old, uh, midwit meme. 509 00:26:13,066 --> 00:26:13,286 Yeah. 510 00:26:14,586 --> 00:26:14,906 Yeah. 511 00:26:14,906 --> 00:26:16,596 You, you start with a simple, so. 512 00:26:16,876 --> 00:26:23,306 The point of the mid width IQ bell curve meme is that the universe 513 00:26:23,416 --> 00:26:25,236 is not really that tricky. 514 00:26:25,486 --> 00:26:28,236 It's kind of, the universe is beautiful, it's rich, it's 515 00:26:28,466 --> 00:26:31,036 complex, but it's kind of truthful. 516 00:26:31,356 --> 00:26:33,086 And when you, when you're simple... 517 00:26:33,556 --> 00:26:37,476 You may not get the nuances, but you kind of get it as a general heuristic. 518 00:26:37,706 --> 00:26:41,186 Then when you become smarter and more pretentious, you start to 519 00:26:41,326 --> 00:26:44,736 lose track and you enter very, very stupid kind of models. 520 00:26:45,016 --> 00:26:49,296 And then when you go really deeper and you get all the nuances, you realize 521 00:26:49,306 --> 00:26:51,126 that you were just right the first time. 522 00:26:51,541 --> 00:26:52,031 Oh, yeah. 523 00:26:52,101 --> 00:26:52,381 Yeah. 524 00:26:52,431 --> 00:26:53,291 It's so fascinating. 525 00:26:54,012 --> 00:26:58,032 The show is also sponsored by Orange Pill App, the Bitcoin only social network where 526 00:26:58,032 --> 00:26:59,692 you can stack friends who stack sats. 527 00:27:00,292 --> 00:27:03,152 You can connect with your favorite Bitcoiners on the app, make local 528 00:27:03,152 --> 00:27:06,202 connections, and even connect with Bitcoiners around the world. 529 00:27:06,752 --> 00:27:10,252 You can see what's going on in your area and organize and attend local events. 530 00:27:10,693 --> 00:27:13,443 I've been to multiple events organized on Orange Pill App and they brought 531 00:27:13,443 --> 00:27:15,483 Bitcoiners together from all over. 532 00:27:15,961 --> 00:27:19,171 And now, with group chat, it's easier than ever to stay in touch 533 00:27:19,171 --> 00:27:20,491 with all your Bitcoin friends. 534 00:27:20,900 --> 00:27:23,090 The best part is you know it's high signal. 535 00:27:23,180 --> 00:27:26,170 There's no spam on OrangePillApp because everyone pays to be there. 536 00:27:26,381 --> 00:27:29,716 So download OrangePillApp on Apple or Android and start building 537 00:27:29,736 --> 00:27:31,036 your local network of Bitcoiners. 538 00:27:31,854 --> 00:27:33,454 Next up, The Bitcoin Way. 539 00:27:33,984 --> 00:27:37,294 Their mission is to onboard, educate, and remove barriers to 540 00:27:37,294 --> 00:27:38,904 taking self custody of your bitcoin. 541 00:27:39,454 --> 00:27:43,764 They cover everything from cold wallets to nodes, no KYC bitcoin purchases, 542 00:27:43,814 --> 00:27:46,244 inheritance planning, payments, and more. 543 00:27:46,774 --> 00:27:49,584 Whether you're new to bitcoin or you're an experienced bitcoiner looking to 544 00:27:49,594 --> 00:27:53,464 expand your freedom footprint, Or you know someone who this sounds perfect for? 545 00:27:53,824 --> 00:27:55,744 The Bitcoin Way has something for you. 546 00:27:56,384 --> 00:27:59,904 They have a skilled team, well versed in the Bitcoin space, and their goal is to 547 00:27:59,904 --> 00:28:03,794 make all the complexities of Bitcoin as straightforward as possible for everyone. 548 00:28:04,354 --> 00:28:06,854 And the best part is you can get started with a free 30 549 00:28:06,854 --> 00:28:08,034 minute call with their team. 550 00:28:08,554 --> 00:28:10,094 Go to thebitcoinway. 551 00:28:10,114 --> 00:28:12,324 com slash contact for more info. 552 00:28:12,925 --> 00:28:14,825 Our newest sponsor is Geyser. 553 00:28:15,155 --> 00:28:18,045 They are the portal to the creator economy on Bitcoin. 554 00:28:18,745 --> 00:28:22,465 On Geyser, creators can monetize their work through their communities 555 00:28:22,495 --> 00:28:24,115 in a social and engaging way. 556 00:28:24,495 --> 00:28:27,285 And supporters can send sats to their favorite projects. 557 00:28:27,732 --> 00:28:31,031 Geyser has also recently integrated with Zapps and Podcasting 2. 558 00:28:31,032 --> 00:28:31,492 0. 559 00:28:31,842 --> 00:28:35,392 So every Zapp sent to a Geyser address shows up on the Geyser page. 560 00:28:36,152 --> 00:28:37,612 We have a Geyser fund ourselves. 561 00:28:37,622 --> 00:28:39,782 It's the best way to support our show directly with Bitcoin. 562 00:28:40,792 --> 00:28:44,652 So whether you're a creator or a supporter, check out geyser at geyser. 563 00:28:44,652 --> 00:28:45,552 fund today. 564 00:28:45,610 --> 00:28:46,580 Luke, you have anything? 565 00:28:46,660 --> 00:28:46,890 Oh, 566 00:28:46,940 --> 00:28:51,330 first great summary of a now classic talk from, from Riga. 567 00:28:51,330 --> 00:28:55,920 I encourage anyone to, to, who hasn't yet checked it out to go watch that one 568 00:28:57,190 --> 00:28:58,020 because it's 569 00:28:58,620 --> 00:28:59,900 absolutely Absolutely. 570 00:28:59,901 --> 00:29:00,280 Absolutely. 571 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,610 And since we, we don't have a whole ton of time and thanks for squeezing us 572 00:29:03,610 --> 00:29:07,030 in, by the way, uh, can you tell us a little bit about, since we had to get 573 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,420 back there, a little bit about what's going on at Lugano generally these days? 574 00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:11,520 Yeah, sure. 575 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,990 Lugano was an interesting city, has a nice history. 576 00:29:14,990 --> 00:29:17,910 Like they stopped Napoleon troops from invading. 577 00:29:17,910 --> 00:29:20,400 They were the, uh, the, um, uh, the refuge of Europe. 578 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:20,740 It 579 00:29:23,790 --> 00:29:24,720 was famous for that. 580 00:29:25,070 --> 00:29:28,230 It was a nice like Lake City, nothing, nothing big. 581 00:29:28,540 --> 00:29:32,480 Then it became important mostly from, uh, I hope, I mean, the, the major 582 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,050 will not see this, this stuff because it's in English, so I can say it. 583 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,660 Lugano became important because of basically money laundry from Italy. 584 00:29:38,985 --> 00:29:41,935 That was the old point of Ticino financial infrastructure. 585 00:29:41,945 --> 00:29:43,155 And Money Laundry is beautiful. 586 00:29:45,525 --> 00:29:46,515 Money Laundry is beautiful. 587 00:29:46,545 --> 00:29:50,345 So Lugano was beautiful, but, uh, unfortunately that stopped. 588 00:29:50,645 --> 00:29:53,895 Uh, and after, after Petro Tech, that basically stopped. 589 00:29:53,895 --> 00:29:57,455 So now Lugano was searching for a new identity and there is some, 590 00:29:57,455 --> 00:30:01,405 uh, there is some cultural push to go away from the past of financial 591 00:30:01,405 --> 00:30:04,915 privacy because they have been hurt by, by the United States mostly. 592 00:30:05,095 --> 00:30:06,745 So some, some pressure to less. 593 00:30:07,030 --> 00:30:11,200 Forget the past and some, some counter pressure to remember the past, which 594 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,620 is financial privacy and some money. 595 00:30:13,900 --> 00:30:19,100 Swiss was, Switzerland was the last country on earth to abandon gold standard. 596 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,110 So there is, there is something there that is very Bitcoin like and 597 00:30:23,110 --> 00:30:24,720 Lugano was starting to feeling it. 598 00:30:24,970 --> 00:30:27,850 And then some, something, some happy coincidence happened that, 599 00:30:27,910 --> 00:30:31,540 uh, like Tether, we were discussing before, Bitfinex and Tether and 600 00:30:31,540 --> 00:30:34,990 all the companies in that, uh, Family, like a whole bunch, synonym. 601 00:30:35,330 --> 00:30:38,880 They were basically decided to base camp in Lugano for, I don't know, 602 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,540 practical reasons, logistical reasons. 603 00:30:40,900 --> 00:30:44,040 The guys beyond Tatar, as you know, are Italian. 604 00:30:44,060 --> 00:30:47,520 So Switzerland is basically a non retarded version of Italy or 605 00:30:47,540 --> 00:30:48,670 less retarded version of Italy. 606 00:30:49,110 --> 00:30:51,470 You, you, you basically eat almost Italian. 607 00:30:51,530 --> 00:30:54,860 You speak Italian in Ticino, especially, but you are not 608 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:56,100 living in the socialist hell. 609 00:30:56,765 --> 00:30:57,395 That, uh, Italy, Italy is. 610 00:30:57,395 --> 00:31:01,755 So, I mean, it's a good, it's a good, probably it's a good, uh, compromise. 611 00:31:02,075 --> 00:31:08,015 So these two things merge and the city municipality fell in love with Bitcoin 612 00:31:08,565 --> 00:31:10,215 at the beginning, also with crypto. 613 00:31:10,455 --> 00:31:14,395 But then we managed to explain them that, uh, even from a non 614 00:31:14,405 --> 00:31:18,045 ideological standpoint, there are so many crypto cities, crypto island, 615 00:31:18,045 --> 00:31:20,095 crypto nation that already happened. 616 00:31:20,095 --> 00:31:21,385 That was so 2016. 617 00:31:21,815 --> 00:31:25,005 There was like Island of Man, the Malta, Puerto Rico. 618 00:31:25,555 --> 00:31:25,945 Zoo. 619 00:31:26,395 --> 00:31:31,435 So we told Dubai , so Dubai, we told them, if you are crypto, you 620 00:31:31,435 --> 00:31:33,925 are just a very late zoo Canton. 621 00:31:34,285 --> 00:31:36,595 Uh, but zoo already was, I mean, it's already there. 622 00:31:36,805 --> 00:31:40,345 If you're Bitcoin, you're just a second after Salvador worldwide. 623 00:31:40,615 --> 00:31:41,935 It's a different kind of approach. 624 00:31:42,295 --> 00:31:48,025 So we managed to, um, to make the, the initiative more toxic over time. 625 00:31:48,295 --> 00:31:53,475 Uh, last year there were still some very delicate coining going on this. 626 00:31:54,685 --> 00:31:54,805 So 627 00:31:54,805 --> 00:31:55,915 you don't count Tether as a 628 00:31:55,915 --> 00:31:56,515 shit coin then? 629 00:31:56,605 --> 00:31:57,355 No, I don't. 630 00:31:57,355 --> 00:31:59,815 I think tether is, uh, I mean a fart coin maybe. 631 00:31:59,965 --> 00:32:00,625 Uh, it's, yeah. 632 00:32:01,165 --> 00:32:02,755 It's, it's a fiat coin in a way. 633 00:32:02,755 --> 00:32:05,865 It's, it's, it's closer to a cryptocurrency in a way than 634 00:32:05,945 --> 00:32:10,785 a cryptocurrency because it's, it's way you will not lose money. 635 00:32:10,790 --> 00:32:14,915 I mean, it's way more riskier for your portfolio to have a more 636 00:32:14,915 --> 00:32:16,445 error than to have te in a way. 637 00:32:16,655 --> 00:32:16,775 Yeah. 638 00:32:16,805 --> 00:32:17,345 In my opinion. 639 00:32:17,345 --> 00:32:17,585 Yeah. 640 00:32:17,905 --> 00:32:25,340 But anyway, uh, I think that, uh, and even that part Teter itself, is also becoming 641 00:32:25,340 --> 00:32:29,200 more maximalist, that the narrative of Tether is moving to Bitcoin first a 642 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:34,560 lot and is also moving, as I said, to Tether Gold, which is closer to our idea. 643 00:32:34,610 --> 00:32:38,050 So everything is getting, it didn't start from a very maximal point of 644 00:32:38,050 --> 00:32:41,950 view because the practical situation was crypto, but it's evolving 645 00:32:41,950 --> 00:32:43,540 in a very nice direction to see. 646 00:32:43,990 --> 00:32:45,530 And, uh, so what we have now is... 647 00:32:46,205 --> 00:32:48,485 The forum, second year, beautiful conference. 648 00:32:48,485 --> 00:32:51,105 I mean, a lot of people, well organized, very, very great. 649 00:32:51,585 --> 00:32:54,855 And we have the Lugano Summer School that we incorporated into 650 00:32:54,855 --> 00:32:56,995 this PlanB network initiative. 651 00:32:57,295 --> 00:32:59,105 We have, well, many other things. 652 00:32:59,495 --> 00:33:02,985 And there will be this Lugano PlanB Bitcoin Hub. 653 00:33:03,495 --> 00:33:07,915 Which will be a very tall building in the five stores building in the center 654 00:33:07,915 --> 00:33:13,505 of Lugano, bought by Fulgur Venture and Tether, that will be a Bitcoin hub. 655 00:33:13,875 --> 00:33:15,045 And I miss one. 656 00:33:15,085 --> 00:33:20,555 I had one in Milan many years ago, and it was so cool having Bitcoiners all 657 00:33:20,565 --> 00:33:22,755 day and physical places are important. 658 00:33:23,575 --> 00:33:31,165 And like the, the network that these, um, you know, Bitcoin sanctuaries around 659 00:33:31,165 --> 00:33:33,185 the world are creating is just fantastic. 660 00:33:33,205 --> 00:33:37,505 Like how, uh, because this is so connected to El Salvador and 661 00:33:37,505 --> 00:33:39,525 Madeira and all of these, it is, 662 00:33:40,055 --> 00:33:43,525 my plan will be, of course, it's always difficult when you create the 663 00:33:43,635 --> 00:33:47,045 infrastructure and you propose it because anybody will create their own. 664 00:33:47,045 --> 00:33:49,155 So it's, I joked on stage. 665 00:33:49,500 --> 00:33:53,450 That my mission is centralization to a certain degree. 666 00:33:53,450 --> 00:33:53,980 That's true. 667 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,190 I don't want everybody to reinvent the wheel. 668 00:33:56,450 --> 00:34:00,760 So as long as money is decentralized, knowledge is decentralized and 669 00:34:01,070 --> 00:34:02,420 everything we do is open source. 670 00:34:02,430 --> 00:34:04,220 So you can just fork it and do it yourself. 671 00:34:04,670 --> 00:34:05,760 As long as that's true. 672 00:34:06,010 --> 00:34:07,320 I like coordination. 673 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:08,790 I don't like reinventing the wheel. 674 00:34:08,820 --> 00:34:11,030 As you said, the fact that we don't have to trust. 675 00:34:11,350 --> 00:34:13,720 Make us very keen to trust each other inside Bitcoin. 676 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,050 So what I would like to provide with, uh, with the resources that Fulgur and Tater 677 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,840 gave me about this network is to provide a template for this kind of sanctuary 678 00:34:23,050 --> 00:34:25,030 where the main key would be education. 679 00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:30,100 Of course, sanctuaries can, can be useful for many things from escaping 680 00:34:30,100 --> 00:34:34,390 government persecution to, uh, to do business, but the education angle, 681 00:34:34,460 --> 00:34:40,015 like university, universities, campuses is, I think it's very, Easy to sell, 682 00:34:40,165 --> 00:34:44,665 like very, you know, a citadel seems something aggressive, maybe you're going 683 00:34:44,665 --> 00:34:46,175 to hide the terrorists there, right? 684 00:34:46,585 --> 00:34:51,955 A university campus seems, seems very innocent, but it's the same fucking thing. 685 00:34:55,080 --> 00:35:00,270 Decentralization is one of those words that get thrown a lot thrown around and 686 00:35:00,620 --> 00:35:02,500 it's not stopping anytime soon, I think. 687 00:35:02,770 --> 00:35:06,390 But, but the way I see it, it's a decentralization is an unfortunate 688 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,120 means to a way greater, greater end, which is sound global, sound 689 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:10,500 money. 690 00:35:10,950 --> 00:35:11,520 Agreed. 691 00:35:11,770 --> 00:35:14,230 Well, or you could go there. 692 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,090 Like, like, I agree that blockchain, for example, is a necessary evil. 693 00:35:18,310 --> 00:35:21,450 I don't know if I will agree with this decentralization, but 694 00:35:21,450 --> 00:35:22,950 for sure, there is a trade off. 695 00:35:22,990 --> 00:35:23,920 And it's not that. 696 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,570 The, there's a specter and there is no decentralization, 697 00:35:27,570 --> 00:35:28,980 good and centralization bad. 698 00:35:29,340 --> 00:35:34,740 These spectors are basically in a taoist kind of situation where decentralization 699 00:35:34,740 --> 00:35:39,800 is always, uh, very, very anti-fragile, but also very, very inefficient. 700 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,410 Well, centralization is also very efficient, but more fragile. 701 00:35:44,630 --> 00:35:48,950 So based on the level of fragility you mean or you don't mean or you don't want, 702 00:35:49,190 --> 00:35:50,750 you can basically navigate the spectrum. 703 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:51,850 Let me give you an example. 704 00:35:52,130 --> 00:35:55,120 When you go from barter to money. 705 00:35:55,500 --> 00:35:57,580 That's a centralization process. 706 00:35:57,870 --> 00:36:03,620 You have a lot of nodes that are creating a network of good to good exchanges 707 00:36:03,890 --> 00:36:08,960 that will grow as a network power law, basically, when you, when you, so you have 708 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,770 two people, you have one line, you have three people, you have a triangle, you 709 00:36:11,770 --> 00:36:12,910 have four people, you have the diagonal. 710 00:36:12,910 --> 00:36:12,980 Metcalf. 711 00:36:12,981 --> 00:36:15,010 Yeah, Metcalf, Metcalf law. 712 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,600 So you have that, then that's, in the value of the network. 713 00:36:20,410 --> 00:36:23,440 It's the friction in the network that is growing N square. 714 00:36:23,790 --> 00:36:28,500 So what you want is to have a center of the figure where instead of 715 00:36:28,540 --> 00:36:32,140 having all the diagonals, everybody's connected right into the center. 716 00:36:32,140 --> 00:36:33,050 This center is money. 717 00:36:33,340 --> 00:36:35,030 So that's a centralization process. 718 00:36:36,100 --> 00:36:39,700 The reason that's tolerable and good is that it's creating efficiency, 719 00:36:39,990 --> 00:36:45,285 but the robustness of a piece of gold is so high because nobody Uh, 720 00:36:45,305 --> 00:36:49,815 human or that we know of can easily change the atomic numbers of gold, 721 00:36:49,855 --> 00:36:51,415 can easily create gold after nothing. 722 00:36:51,415 --> 00:36:56,755 So you did centralize on something which was very robust against takeover, 723 00:36:57,005 --> 00:36:58,885 which was basically a precious metal. 724 00:36:59,215 --> 00:37:00,905 So it's a good kind of centralization. 725 00:37:01,275 --> 00:37:05,205 Uh, the fiat word is a bad kind of centralization because we centralize 726 00:37:05,205 --> 00:37:08,665 over an entity which is very fragile, very easy to take over. 727 00:37:09,025 --> 00:37:10,955 So we don't have to decentralize everything. 728 00:37:11,255 --> 00:37:12,995 We have to disintegrate something. 729 00:37:13,015 --> 00:37:15,175 And another example that I think is cool. 730 00:37:15,595 --> 00:37:18,285 I am, I research a lot with my wife about homeschooling. 731 00:37:18,405 --> 00:37:19,415 We think it's very cool. 732 00:37:19,415 --> 00:37:21,165 Also unschooling, very, very cool. 733 00:37:21,165 --> 00:37:25,275 But then, uh, we said, okay, but are we going to teach ourself all the time? 734 00:37:25,285 --> 00:37:27,715 Maybe not yet because we have other times to do so. 735 00:37:27,715 --> 00:37:29,445 We may hire some teacher as well. 736 00:37:29,635 --> 00:37:32,495 Maybe we'll, we will do something ourself with some teacher. 737 00:37:32,815 --> 00:37:34,595 But then, I mean, it's very expensive. 738 00:37:34,855 --> 00:37:39,735 Maybe we can, we can do, uh, efficiency with, uh, um, with economies of scale. 739 00:37:40,255 --> 00:37:44,065 If we join another family, but then maybe you don't want them in your home. 740 00:37:44,075 --> 00:37:47,725 Maybe we can just rent a place with where family can jointly 741 00:37:47,725 --> 00:37:50,135 pay for a team of teachers. 742 00:37:50,655 --> 00:37:51,755 Which is schooling. 743 00:37:51,765 --> 00:37:53,325 We are reinventing schooling, right? 744 00:37:53,515 --> 00:37:56,015 So we're, the point is that the current schooling is broken. 745 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:57,600 And we just want to create a better 746 00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:57,870 one. 747 00:37:58,020 --> 00:37:58,250 Yeah. 748 00:37:58,250 --> 00:37:58,560 Yeah. 749 00:37:58,630 --> 00:38:02,310 But that's the, I mean, there's no, nothing wrong with schooling in itself. 750 00:38:02,310 --> 00:38:05,810 I mean, it's wonderful to leave your kids for a couple of hours. 751 00:38:05,820 --> 00:38:07,300 So you can get something done. 752 00:38:07,300 --> 00:38:09,640 Like it's, it's not something new either. 753 00:38:09,660 --> 00:38:13,210 Like I, I bet people did this when they were living in caves. 754 00:38:13,210 --> 00:38:14,430 They left the kids in the cave. 755 00:38:14,430 --> 00:38:16,350 They didn't join the family. 756 00:38:16,350 --> 00:38:20,020 People were not like intensive parenthood of modern times when you stay with 757 00:38:20,020 --> 00:38:24,610 your kids alone, insulated from, uh, that didn't exist in the central times. 758 00:38:24,940 --> 00:38:30,240 Uh, the, the grandmas were basically growing up, they were basically So, yeah, 759 00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:36,670 in a way, uh, I think that the point, or even again, another example, uh, I have, 760 00:38:36,710 --> 00:38:40,280 I, uh, guns, firearms, uh, firearms. 761 00:38:40,780 --> 00:38:42,420 You want guns to defend yourself. 762 00:38:42,420 --> 00:38:42,810 That's cool. 763 00:38:42,850 --> 00:38:43,460 I love that. 764 00:38:43,470 --> 00:38:47,520 I have them and I want them, but, uh, if you really want to defend 765 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,460 yourself in some, uh, in some kind of high, uh, of huge scale, you will 766 00:38:51,460 --> 00:38:53,540 have to hire guns, not just own guns. 767 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:55,900 And maybe you don't want to create a new company. 768 00:38:55,900 --> 00:38:58,530 You will hire an existing company and they will be specialized. 769 00:38:58,780 --> 00:39:00,920 They will be, they will be re specialization. 770 00:39:01,220 --> 00:39:02,330 So I think the point there is that. 771 00:39:02,985 --> 00:39:04,885 too much centralization. 772 00:39:04,925 --> 00:39:11,255 So depending on a third party, defensive firm, or, uh, educational 773 00:39:11,265 --> 00:39:13,485 firm, uh, in a total way. 774 00:39:13,665 --> 00:39:17,685 So where you have no bargaining power, that's bad because now you're fragile. 775 00:39:18,125 --> 00:39:20,325 Now the firm turns against you and you have nothing. 776 00:39:20,885 --> 00:39:23,675 Try to defend yourself or educate yourself without. 777 00:39:23,940 --> 00:39:27,610 Using the division of labor, that is, it's also bad because 778 00:39:27,610 --> 00:39:28,750 it will be super inefficient. 779 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,130 It will be the man on the hill with a gun, but then as soon as somebody 780 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:34,760 better armed come, you will lose. 781 00:39:35,100 --> 00:39:39,070 So the point is that you have to stay in the, in between the Fiat world. 782 00:39:39,495 --> 00:39:42,035 Went too much on the centralization side. 783 00:39:42,325 --> 00:39:42,905 Absolutely. 784 00:39:43,565 --> 00:39:46,485 Modern individuals, they cannot do anything on their own. 785 00:39:46,635 --> 00:39:50,535 This is wrong, but you don't have to do anything on your own. 786 00:39:50,555 --> 00:39:52,565 Otherwise you get back to be a savage. 787 00:39:52,975 --> 00:39:54,845 Civilization is division of labor. 788 00:39:55,085 --> 00:39:58,805 So it's basically a really a ying yang kind of balance. 789 00:39:58,975 --> 00:39:59,335 I think 790 00:39:59,335 --> 00:40:01,365 we the non aggression principle. 791 00:40:01,425 --> 00:40:02,875 Non aggression principle. 792 00:40:03,415 --> 00:40:03,715 Non 793 00:40:03,945 --> 00:40:06,915 aggression can be dangerous. 794 00:40:08,795 --> 00:40:11,695 Yeah, I think, I think we're going to have to call it a here. 795 00:40:11,695 --> 00:40:13,235 I think this is a perfect ending. 796 00:40:13,235 --> 00:40:15,975 If we go in another rabbit hole, we'll be here for another hour. 797 00:40:15,985 --> 00:40:18,355 So thanks Giacomo, always a pleasure. 798 00:40:18,385 --> 00:40:18,535 My 799 00:40:18,575 --> 00:40:18,945 pleasure. 800 00:40:19,345 --> 00:40:22,255 I hope we can do this like 21 million times more. 801 00:40:22,255 --> 00:40:25,155 If we have the time in our lives, always a pleasure. 802 00:40:25,405 --> 00:40:28,645 Giacomo, thank you for having us here.