I've spoken about this with many Bitcoiners, and I think as humans, we
who have been attracted to Bitcoin, have come to Bitcoin quite literally
from the beginning of our lives.
And if you speak to some Bitcoiners, they'll say, I've been in search of
Bitcoin And this was the path for me, I just didn't know it until I found Bitcoin,
and that was definitely the case for me.
Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint show, the Bitcoin
philosophy show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn.
And today we have our friend, Roger 9000.
We've seen him at a bunch of Bitcoin conferences and we've had
a lot of deep and meaningful, so to say, like our friends like to say.
And we're really excited to have him on the show.
Quick introduction is that he's a Bitcoiner, musician, Kakao ceremonialist.
So let's dive into it.
We'll definitely have to explain that last one.
So Roger, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show.
Thanks for joining us.
Ah, gentlemen, thank you for having me.
I'm very excited.
And so are we, Roger.
And like, the first question to you is obvious.
OutKast has Andre 3000, but Bitcoin has Roger 9000.
Where did the 9000 come from?
okay, so nine is my lucky number.
So, that one was pretty easy for me.
Bitcoin became something Very, um, well, it's a funny thing because I was very
deep into Stanley Kubrick, my brother's a bit of an actor, and, so Stanley
Kubrick was quite at the forefront of my mind, and, HAL 9000, if you know,
Yeah.
Odyssey 2001, so, yeah, probably my favourite film ever.
yeah, Hal was probably the most, how do I put this, the most human creature in
that film, and has always stuck with me.
So, Hal, the 9000 is definitely a reference to Hal.
I was actually going to call myself Hal 9000 as a musician, I was thinking
about dropping Roger altogether.
and then the, the Powerball meme, you know, the, the over 9000
thing happened, and, um, it just seemed applicable to Bitcoin.
So yeah, 9000.
Hal was already taken in Bitcoin
that was already taken.
And, but yeah, exactly.
so what's the cacao thing?
Cacao ceremonies?
What is this thing?
so I like to think of the ceremony itself as like a practice of,
manifesting your intentions.
That probably needs a bit of breaking down.
Like, your intention being, they talk about it in terms
of setting your intention.
And your intention is essentially a truth for yourself, which is, which is
what I like to consider truth in terms of like, we, we know We have the truth
when it comes to a Bitcoin transaction, and that's verified in, in a sort of
global, in a sort of, um, a network way.
your intention is really verified by yourself, in a way, the
practicing of manifesting it.
in the real world is kind of what the idea of the ceremony is.
So you have the ceremony, which is like this, you could call it a bit
cathartic in a way, if, if, um, you've ever been to, well, I mean, there is
this sort of opening up of the self in front of An audience, which I, you
know, as, as a, as a performer, there is something cathartic about being
totally yourself in front of an audience.
but there's an internal thing, and we can talk about, well, actually.
The, the sort of, the background as, as, from a shaman point of
view and all that kind of stuff, I, I don't know enough about that.
I'm, I'm actually still learning that side of things, but I feel like Bitcoin
really, really is this internal journey in the same way that the Cacao ceremony is
trying to Initiate this internal journey.
So the Cacao ceremony is the practicing of the manifesting or the
bringing out of, um, the intention, which is, which is yourself.
And then the Kakao is the medicine for the activation of that intention.
So it literally becomes, and you sort of turn it into a medicine, but it also
works through you as a medicine as well.
And there's this amazing, There's an amazing practice that's also shamanic,
which is, um, and the study of, this practice is, um, Kurundirismo, which
is, um, this kind of plant medicine study, And essentially, you know,
whether it's ayahuasca or cacao, it's, it's all in a sense, the healing
through medicine power, through plant, plant medicine, essentially.
So I can, I can get into the depths of how Bitcoin and cacao, um, I
gave this presentation in, um, El Salvador, called the, the, the
beautiful balance of Bitcoin and cacao.
Because I believe they both operate as balancing forces in the world,
essentially, in a, in a sort of macro sense, in a sort of individual
physical way, and, and more importantly, in a, in a metaphysical,
in a metaphysical way as well.
So it's, the ceremony, um, it, it's sort of a bit out there, I think, for,
technical people in the Bitcoin space, but I actually feel like there's more
and more people in Bitcoin who are gravitating towards this concept of, you
know, and this Jungian concept of the individuation process, really, which is
all about the purification of the self.
And, you know, this is a, this is, this is, you know, I mean, Campbell called
it the hero's journey, Jung called it The individual, individuation process.
But it's essentially this finding yourself, finding your path
and then following your path.
And the Kakao Ceremony really helps in that manifesting.
And Bitcoin is all about finding your truth and finding
your, yourself essentially.
That, essentially what.
I believe Bitcoin's here to do.
Um, we can get into, into how, and, and how timely Bitcoin is as well,
because it really is such a beautiful balance that Bitcoin brings us when
we, when we, need it so important, so, you know, so urgently right now.
This reminds me of a conversation I had back when I was playing music.
We had a gig and there were some other some other bands on stage as well,
and one of them, um, a friend of mine was singing in that band and he, he,
he told me about the importance of, uh, you know, knowing that it's an act
and it's as soon as you go on stage, uh, you become this, uh, alter ego
persona and, and it's all theater.
And I thought, wait a minute, for me it's the exact opposite, like, this is
the act, you know, of being in Fiatland and having a career and stuff, and
whenever I go on a stage and just, then all bets are off, and it's not an act
anymore, I can just scream out whatever Whatever I want to scream about or, or
like, like that's, that's not an act.
That's the purest thing.
So, so I think, uh, and, and I enjoy artists and, and music, uh, and, you
know, films or whatever that are more like that, that, that where the, the
art is not the act, but, but the purest thing, and it's sort of acknowledging
that everything else is an act.
think that's, and, and, and the mask of God is essentially what
you're describing there, right?
You're, describing the fact that we all wear this mask.
and the divine principle within us all is what is dying to kind of come out.
We, we don't know it.
And we, and, you know, I've spoken about this with Izzy as well, you know.
We don't really know ourself, but I know Izzy is all about, you know, it's all
about know thyself, and that's true, it's all about trying to get to know
yourself, but in that same paradox, I guess, of the answer is there is no
answer, you have to be comfortable with Just knowing that you kind of don't
know what's about to come out of you.
And when you let go, which I think is what you're kind of saying there when you
let go on stage, or when you let go in a caco ceremony, for example, there is
this honesty, there is this authenticness that you don't even know is coming.
that's incredible.
That's, you know, I've, I've had that experience in kakuseremony and I've,
I've, I've cried or I've, I've had visions or I've, and I don't know,
maybe, and I haven't done ayahuasca, but maybe, maybe that kind of stuff is
what the shamans are, uh, are kind of trying to find as well all the time.
I've still got to learn a lot more about that stuff, but, I think what
drew me to, to being a musician.
Was, was that though, was, I, I need to express myself, as authentically as
possible, and it seems as though the real world isn't real enough for me.
It's not, I'm not feeling, and so when I, and I was talking about
this with Nazemi Hayessi, You know, cause she's, she asked me, Roger,
like, is that really you on stage?
And I thought to myself, well, there is, there is a bit of, you know, banter there.
There is a bit of this and a bit of that and a bit of playing with
the crowd, but, but essentially.
That, that's absolutely me, that's, that's me, like, I can't even be
in real life, or, because it's, it goes, it gets bigger, it gets bigger
than, it gets bigger than that, when you're in that space, I guess, I can't
even really describe that, but yeah.
But I think this, this is true for all creativity, really.
Uh, I mean, the, the best songs I've written and the best pieces of writing I
ever put out, uh, came from a place of, you know, letting go completely and just
being in a green zone and not knowing what was going on, like my most famous
piece is probably 21 million article.
and, and that I wrote that while.
Simultaneously falling asleep.
So I wasn't there.
I was just, so it feels like you're channeling something from the outside.
And I don't necessarily believe that it's true that you're actually
channeling something, but it certainly feels like that's the case,
that there's some outside force.
And I guess it's your subconscious or your soul, if you will, like
something else is influencing.
What's happening?
And it's such a great feeling to be hyper focused, like to be in the zone,
like what do surfers say, like the green room, when they catch a perfect
wave, that's the thing, you want to be in this moment that feels like you're
in You're stuck in this moment in time and it's going to last forever.
Like time and space are just dissolving.
And I had that experience while, you know, rehearsing with a band
sometimes, and even on stage, like, you're just watching your body do
things, but you're not really there.
You're, you're able to like zone out and observe all these magical stuff happening.
And I, I love that.
I think like, um, Bitcoin and the, um, security it gives you, the, the, um,
all the insight it gives you, it gives you, a leverage, if you will, a better,
starting point for, for being like that more often, if you will, since, like you
say, we wear these masks, if you, if you have a fiat job, you know exactly what
that means, like you're, you're, you're forced to attend these meetings and, and,
and, uh, and, Talk bullshit about this and that and have conversations about the
weather and other bullshitty things and it feels very unnatural and artificial.
And so yeah, like, I think we at least creative people have a wish to get
closer to some authenticity in this way.
I think it's, I think it's no coincidence, the kind of, you know, for lack of a
better word, squares and misfits and weirdos that get attracted to Bitcoin.
It's, it's no coincidence at all.
I, I've spoken about this with many Bitcoiners, and I think as humans, we,
we, who have been attracted to Bitcoin have come to Bitcoin quite literally
from the beginning of our lives.
And if, you speak to some Bitcoiners, they'll say, I've been in search of
Bitcoin And this was the path for me, I just didn't know it until I found Bitcoin,
and that was definitely the case for me.
I think music helped me find the path, and Bitcoin, I don't like
to use the word concretized, but it, kind of, solidified it.
I guess they're the same kind of thing, but, um, Bitcoin
solidified what I was looking for.
But essentially I was always looking for what, what Bitcoin is and what
Bitcoin represents, which is, which is essentially the freedom to be myself.
and, and, it's, it's insane how how bitcoin operates.
But, but it is, it's this free speech which enables freedom of expression,
which enables you to identify yourself through that, through however form
you want to express yourself in.
And in that expression, you see yourself clearly.
You accept yourself, fully, and then you can love yourself, then you can
truly say, well that's, that's me, and here I am, and then you can start
accepting and building that love, and that love is really what we're all after.
Whether, like, any kind of creator, any kind of, but, but, we're all
creators, and so any kind of human is looking for that kind of, that love,
Do you think it's necessary to love yourself before you can love others?
a hundred percent, yeah.
I mean, you can definitely love others, I'm not saying you can't,
but, the love for yourself is.
Truly, author, it's truly, what I should put, it's truly abundant love, because And
you can, you can have, I'm not saying you can't have abundant love for others before
you find abundant love for yourself.
You can definitely have that.
Because you might, you know, you might not like what you're putting out into the
world, but then you find someone and you love what they're putting out into the
world and so you can just give to that.
But anything is, anything is possible in that way, but maybe I can only
speak from my point of view here, but.
I feel like if you don't have a true kind of sense of love in some capacity
for yourself, then it's going to run out for someone else, because where
are you going to kind of get it from?
Like, It's a tricky one, man.
I I, I like to think though that the bitcoin, it begins, like you were saying,
it begins this path for self-love.
I mean, we've got an ident, an identity crisis going on in the world.
We've got a value crisis, which leads to the identity crisis, which then leads
to this relationship crisis in a way.
but the, the identity crisis is.
I believe that people are trying to work out who they are, but the fiat system,
it's completely made it a delusion of what value really is for the individual.
So we, we, value, these metrics, we value these calculations, we value, for
example, we value money instead of wealth.
Right?
So, money becomes this tangible, physical thing when we should be valuing wealth,
which is, I mean, wealth is, health.
Wealth is happiness.
Wealth is a healthy relationship, for example.
But we're, we're sort of calculating Wealth, like it's, you know, how
much money you've got, what kind of assets you've got, what kind of,
car you own, all that kind of stuff.
well, and the fiat system is all, is all pervasive in there.
It's, it's, it's.
It's, it's not only broken, but it's broken our way of valuing
things as human beings, because we don't value human things anymore,
we value these fucking calculations
I think the, the, the main misconception here is that people think that money
is an, is a noun, that it's a physical thing, when it's really not, it's, it's
an, it's an adjective, right, it's it's different things have different moneyness
to them, and it's not a tangible thing, like, uh, um, it's, it's just, We view,
have come to believe that these, uh, bills and these numbers on screens are money.
It's true in the sense that they have some moneyness to them, but they're
not necessarily, it's not a, it's not a physical thing, it's just an
expression of how you value, so, to which extent you value your time,
basically, to other, to other people.
so, and also about About the self and loving thyself, do you
think Donald Trump loves himself?
And like, where I'm getting at with that question is like, where does
narcissism come in and where does this self love turn into something ugly?
So what's the difference between loving thyself so that you can be able to,
you know, spread love to others, and loving thyself for egotistical reasons?
Heh
altruistic love comes out of self love, so there has to be true self love For
it to become abundant for yourself and in that abundance, then it can be
given to others quite, quite freely.
I mean, that's the unconditional giving of love.
It's got to be unconditional.
Is Trump giving his love unconditionally?
it's questionable.
Because he may be looking for something in return, and he, he,
he probably is from certain people, does he have enough self love for
himself, you know, he probably does,
my views on Trump may be biased, but this is, I just took him as an example
of, like, the narcissistic personality disorder, like, for people who suffer from
that, is self love a good thing or not?
do they love themselves?
yeah, that's, yeah, definitely, that is really tricky there because on the
one hand you would say someone who's narcissistic doesn't really, someone
who's narcissistic is narcissistic.
actually really looking for love because they don't have
it within themselves properly.
So they're constantly sourcing for outside validation.
And in that sense, they've missed the point of truly being able to be on
their own, truly being able to love themselves unconditionally for themselves.
Because they, they just don't, they just, they're constantly searching on
the outside for something, and that's, yeah, that you could say someone who's
narcissistic is definitely showing tendencies, of being completely, lacking
in self love, which, you could say, yeah, that, that, I mean, is it dangerous?
Yeah, I think it is dangerous, Like, and it's interesting you mentioned
a politician because a politician may be seen on the outside of things
to, to have, you know, this status.
And we, we often conflate status with, with some kind of happiness, right?
Oh, well, you, you've got all these views, you're, you've got all
these likes, you've got all this attention, you must be really happy.
but is that person really happy?
And does That attention really give them a sense of identity.
I mean, maybe, yeah, it is hard to, it is hard to answer.
I mean, I think you'd have to sit down with Trump and really get to
know someone like that to, to be able to answer something like that, but
narcissism is, it is a result, I would say, of, uh, well, of this, Yeah.
This, this, this, this crisis of identification, I think.
We're going through this crisis of knowing, of not
knowing ourselves well enough.
And so we look to the outside for validation all the time, and in
doing so, we're measuring ourselves.
using the fiat standard.
And if we don't have all of the, if we don't tick all the boxes, then we're,
we're getting sad because we don't, we just, we're not valuable enough.
So we're, we're searching for the wrong thing in the wrong place then.
I, you know, that, that song, um, still, I still haven't found what I'm looking for.
I think that's, um, it's such a well, this, it's, it just describes the
situation of, of the fiat and maybe it's, uh, you know, I don't want to say
anything about the, just that, that, that, the actual meaning behind that
song, is so relevant to the fiat culture.
It's just so relevant.
And we, we, we suffer because, um, because the whole world just, just can't see
that fiat is, is corrupting everything
So how did you find Bitcoin?
Or how did Bitcoin find you is, might be the more, more corrector question here.
so I think, I think, um, Bitcoin finds you just because you're looking
for truth, really, or you're looking for You're, you're curious enough to
question things and you're brave enough to, you're brave enough to accept.
Other people's refusal, you know, and, and when other people refuse
you, you sort of, because of your conviction, it doesn't matter.
But sorry man, your question was how did Bitcoin find me,
or how did I find Bitcoin.
Again, it was through music, so, so the music led me to Bitcoin.
And it led me to an Andreas Antonopoulos video, and that was it.
I just, I started, a bit like Andreas himself, I started just absorbing
as much as I could, and found, I lost myself completely, just, yeah,
just sucking up everything Bitcoin.
and I've never, I've never looked back, I'd never Regretted basically
anything I've done in Bitcoin, and that includes losing 80 percent of all my
Bitcoin, which was very painful, but,
In a boating accident?
kind of, um, no, but it, it, I think everything in Bitcoin is good
for you, and it, it, it literally.
Improves your life no matter what it does in a way, because it's, it's
um, it's this purification process,
Yeah.
One thing you said before, that's like, uh, I think Bitcoiners are born with this.
that they will find Bitcoin eventually because they were born with this,
uh, you know, itch in their mind that there's something bigger and there's
something to look for in the first place.
And this reminds me of a question I've been asked many times since writing
the books, and that is the question, when did you start writing the book?
I mean, and to me, that's like impossible to answer.
Like, I know when I stopped writing the book.
That's easy.
When I started, like, when the hell was that?
It's not when I wrote the first letter on the keyboard.
I know that.
So when is it?
It's probably when I was born, or maybe when my parents were born.
What do I know?
Like, everything led up to that decision at some point.
So it's very hard to, to, uh, To put a starting point at any creative process.
I mean, if you're writing a song, for instance, that can be, that can feel
very instant, and like, you, you, you, you grabbed an instrument, and something
just came to you, uh, so that's easier to explain, but like, why, why did it come
to you, it wouldn't have come to you if you didn't know how to use the thing, it
wouldn't have come to you if you didn't pick it up, or have it there, or like,
there needs to be a couple of There are, uh, what's the word, uh, preconditions
that are necessary for a thing like that, for a creative thing to, to happen.
you know, honestly man, um, I actually found it really difficult,
I, I found it really easy to write music, um, just in terms of my
creative process, um, and I find it.
I found it really easy to come up with a melody, I found it incredibly difficult
to realize what was informing that music.
And ever since I found Bitcoin, it's been so easy to write lyrics, it's been so
easy to know what my music's about now.
And so, I've, I've, I've even had some Music, that I'd written years ago, and
I've looked at it and thought, holy fuck, this is about Bitcoin as well.
And it, it literally informs my entire existence now.
I mean, Bitcoin, literally, I, I, honestly, I, and it's going to sound
weird, but, Satoshi speaks to me.
I, like you were saying, something speaks through you.
So, like, the books are, are a channeling of something.
And this is why I guess people come to these religious, these religious concepts
keep coming up in Bitcoin, because of this nature, um, of this expression.
It's somehow otherworldly.
Yeah, the
idea is so powerful, it's like that, uh, that, uh, I don't remember who
the quote is from, one of the science fiction authors, I think, that any,
any, sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
And I think that's what's going on, and I think people who can't comprehend why
it's so powerful see it as magic, and that has something to do with why they
become religious to a larger extent.
that's, that's a great analogy, yeah,
That's like a rationalist view of why bitcoiners are becoming religious.
It's because it feels like magic, because in some sense it is.
And as you say, I've had the, you said this is going to sound
strange, but I've had the exact same experience with songwriting.
I mean, I write songs, I don't record them as often as I used to, but I
still write them once in a while.
Uh, the best ones are usually the ones that take five minutes to write and that
just come from this place of, of stream of consciousness, like, and the lyrics can
be very abstract and they make no sense whatsoever in, in a traditional sense,
but, but they make emotional sense to you somehow, or poetical sense, whatever.
And somehow, yeah, Bitcoin influenced that for sure.
And, and I, like you, I could look back at older songs and see like, hang on this.
Was already here somehow, like it's a search, searching for freedom and a
searching for emotional honesty, if you
mm hmm, mm hmm, mm hmm, 100%, 100%, it, it comes, and I saw this
interview with Michael Jackson once, and he frickin said exactly the
same thing as what you've just said.
He literally just, some interviewer asked him, you know, hey man, where
did fuckin Billie Jean come from?
And he was like, it just came to me.
It, don't.
Look for it, because it's just gonna come to you.
And that, that really shook me.
I was like, wow, like, this dude is fucking And I've subsequently tried
to listen to more of what Michael has said, and he's a fucking profound dude.
We, like, I don't think we know the half of what, what the
fuck is going on with Michael.
I, who knows how he exited the world, but I actually think he's really under,
obviously, you know, he's a pretty famous dude, but like, I think he's
philosophical and, you know, Spiritual understanding is so undervalued.
No one fucking knows him for that.
Um, but he was there.
He was really on all this stuff, which is, I guess his, his handlers probably
said, look, dude, just, just, don't, don't, don't say that shit, man.
But you can fucking put people off, you know.
But, um, hey,
Yeah, other artists that come to mind, John Lennon or Kurt Cobain or Bob
Marley or like people who just had something, some connection to something
authentic, emotionally authentic.
It's very hard to quantify or describe,
yeah.
I mean, the purification process, though, it should actually help.
Many more people reach that state.
I mean, I, I, I've definitely been helped.
there's so many people crying out, I think, to have a voice in the world.
And whatever that is, you know, and that's the beauty of Bitcoin.
It's, it's, it's changing.
And, and I was thinking about this the other day, actually, just to
get back to the religious stuff.
Um.
There's a great quote by Joseph Campbell, um, the image of
God is the final obstruction.
And I've loved that, I've loved that ever since I heard it, but for
me, that means essentially when you get rid of the image of something,
particularly the image of God, it then becomes It then becomes everything.
It then, manifests itself in everything.
And I think for God, you know, like, we, we are the image of God.
We, the, the, the, I guess this is an Eastern perspective more than
a Western perspective, but, then I thought, well hang on, the image
of money is the final obstruction.
And like you say, Knut, right?
Like you say, everything divided by 21.
Million.
I mean, that is, that, and now we're getting rid of the image
of money, through bitcoin.
And everything now becomes, moneyfied every, everything now, has a real value
because we're getting rid of the money.
So, I mean, I, I, I, you know, I think that the, the, the philosophy
and, the love of knowledge that brick, Bitcoin is initiating here
is, um, I mean, it, I, I think we should, I think all Bitcoiners are.
Essentially philosophers now, they, have to have philosophy at their core because
that's what enables them to, to love.
What they, what they are, which is, which is truth searching creatures,
just before I forget, there's a great Benny Anderson quote about creativity
and songwriting in particular.
And he says like, the songs are already out there, floating in the room.
And you just have to sit by the piano to catch them as they,
as they, as they float around.
And, and I think that's so, illustrative of what it feels like to write a song.
It feels like when you do it successfully, that is like you can force it, but,
but it never, it's never as good.
I mean, it is, it is effortless, and I'd love to have had a conversation
with Beethoven, because to know the struggle, and we only know, you know,
anecdotal evidence, but we know that he struggled like a motherfucker.
Right?
As opposed to someone like, uh, as opposed to someone like Mozart, who
just seemed to have this fucking, you know, hey, let's have fun, let's fucking
be jokers, let's, you know, it all just seemed, you know, like, like, you
know, he's writing symphonies in his head, um, without any effort at all.
And so I've always thought, I've always really, well, again,
I, I, I, I try to be balanced.
And I've, I've, I've fucking slogged at some things and thought, no,
this, this, this is gonna happen.
I just have to believe it.
I just have to keep struggling with it.
And at the end of the day, I really, I've, you know, I've bashed it.
Horse, right?
Um, when, absolutely, as you say Knut, like when it happens magically
and when it happens easily and when it happens like it's, like you're
channeling it, that is, they're, they're, they're definitely the best ones.
Yeah, for
Yeah, then again, like, people's processes are different, and different genres
of music are different, and like, the Beethoven Mozart thing reminds me of
how Bob Dylan compared his songwriting to how Leonard Cohen described his,
it's like Dylan writes them in five minutes, and Cohen spent years writing
everything, so it doesn't necessarily have to be the same from person to person.
And also from genre to genre.
I mean, I love Tool, for instance.
They take like 14 years to release an album, but when they do,
it's, it's fucking spectacularly good, and, and it is good because
they put a lot of work into it.
So there's something to that, too, like but this is where, this is why
it's so hard to describe because the ability to be able to write a song
in five minutes took a lifetime of work to get to that point, right?
Uh, that, that's, so that's the proof of work there.
So, so I think anyone who says that the writing the song
took them five minutes is.
Basically lying, like, it's the final process of the song making that took five
minutes, but really took you a lifetime.
That's, that's incredible and it's really true.
And um, I guess that's um, that's the confidence, yeah, of an artist.
As opposed to just the luck of an artist and, absolutely,
there's, there's so much more.
I used to get really You know, until Bitcoin, sorted me out in a way, I, I
used to get incredibly jealous of other artists, thinking, why, why don't I get,
you know, again, it was that attention.
Why don't I get that, recognition?
Why don't people want to work with me?
Why don't I have people come to my gig?
All that kind of stuff.
And of course, you know, I wasn't taking into account all of those
hours, all of that pain, all of that struggle that you don't see when you
just see the artist up on stage and you're just thinking, hey, this guy
just seems to do it falling off a log.
There's no, you know, he's got all these, um, contacts, he's got all this,
um, and again, that's, it, that's.
That concept of privilege, right, which again is a fucking fiat construct, right?
Privilege is such a bullshit term that, again, we attribute to this fiat system.
It's like, well, you know, do you have the money?
Do you have the, Accolade, do you have the, qualification?
Do you have, you know, the contact?
And they're all things that are fucking fiat.
There's nothing human about that.
And yet we value ourselves on that shit.
We value ourselves on the fucking likes, on the measurement, on the calculation.
And it fucks us up as human beings.
It literally destroys our confidence.
in being human, in being just basically good enough just being human and just
being able to dream and just being able to think and, and, and be happy
and be sad and, you know, eat and love and cry and shit and all those
things that actually is the true human value, the true human condition.
So,
the internet itself has sort of destroyed the privileged narrative.
Because everyone can compete on every, in every field now and you
can really, the only thing that can separate you from others is like,
uh, that you actually have talent and that you're actually put in the work.
I mean, anyone can do a YouTube show.
Anyone can make music.
Anyone can even make a movie at this point.
Like it's, it's just to make a quality product, you need to put in the work and
you need to have some type of talent.
Which go hand in hand.
absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's, there's nothing, there's nothing that replaces the slog of,
you know, the 10, 000 hours playing or
No,
actually putting, putting in the work to, to create something of value.
It is a bit K shaped in, in that, you know, you do have some artists
with some recognition who can get a lot of attention just by twigging
figures or just by, you know.
Yeah, but then, they're engaged in another artform.
And that artform is just manipulating the algorithms to get the likes.
Which is an artform in itself.
Uh, not a very, uh, it's not an artform I appreciate very much.
But still, you have to do it like, it is something.
it does take, it does take effort.
Sure.
Yeah.
think that would be harder on a Bitcoin standard, though.
Let's hope so, man.
Yeah.
No, I think it's, it's pretty clear that Bitcoin is going to level a lot of things
and, and let's hope it's going to just enable value for value and, and, you know,
be there for people who really need it.
And so far so good.
It's, it's, it's, you know, I, I would never have developed.
I don't see myself as an artist any further at all.
So Bitcoin has helped me so much, I can't even begin.
It's, I mean, firstly, it's given me a sense of my own identity
as a musician, because I really didn't, like, like I said, I didn't
know what was informing my music.
I really needed to put it out there, but without meaning for me.
Without being informed by something and let's, I, and I have to be really
honest without being informed by something as significant as Bitcoin,
I, I couldn't have validated it.
I never was able to validate my music because it just didn't feel
like it had enough gravity to it.
And all of a sudden Bitcoin comes along and I'm like, fuck yeah.
This is all I wanna write about.
This is all I wanna bring to the world.
And.
I still feel like, you know, well, let me put it this way, I only create
for Bitcoiners now, it's, it's this weird thing that, you know, you,
you know who your audience is, and then you just go, well, These, these
are the people I'm speaking to.
I just don't give a shit about anyone else.
And maybe that's really where I had to come, uh, get to, because I was
always like, how do I please this, and how do I please this group,
and how do I, I was such a fiat.
It
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Roger, this is fantastic.
Uh, I'm loving all the Campbell stuff.
my, my angle, uh, into the Joseph Campbell world is mostly through Jordan Peterson,
which, which he's super influenced by Campbell, by Jung, all of, all of this,
this stuff, but the, the angle that I mostly take, I love the hero's journey.
This is, this is a great story, a central story, but I, I mostly focus on, um,
Other aspects of this here, have you, have you dug into some of the different
ways that Peterson approaches this stuff?
You know, I haven't heard much from Peterson, though, I feel really guilty
about that, because I know he's influenced by these dudes, and, um, I guess I'm still
working my way through Campbell and, and Jung, and, um, I, I, Yeah, but I, I, you
know, when I do hear Peterson talk, I can hear all, all the influence in him.
So, absolutely, man.
Yeah, no, I've, I, I, I, I, I do need to, I do need to hear, I, the one
thing I did hear from, Peterson, um, was his take on ai and he, he sounded
very worried about the whole thing, and that kind of confused me because I
thought, hang on, I thought this guy.
New, the Bitcoin was kind of all cool, but he, he seemed to feel really
afraid of AI and that AI was just gonna, you know, infiltrate what seemed
like infiltrate the whole world, even Bitcoiners, which I very much doubt.
But you know, I guess,
worries.
Excellent.
with, him, uh, I, I don't, uh, really put myself out there to kind
of offend him as a, as a person.
He, he all, he, all that he has done is he's helped me a lot to figure out,
the problem of meaning, the problem of value, all of this stuff, the, the
book Maps of Meaning is the, the most valuable thing that he's contributed
to, that I, I think, as well as some accompanying lecture series, those were.
Huge for me.
Just to tie off the point of that, he's got a lot of, a lot of things, a lot
of opinions that I certainly don't, uh, agree with, or at least not to
the same extent that, that he does.
But the main thing is, he, he still produced some amazing things
that have been incredibly helpful.
And, uh, so actually right now I'm doing a series with Robert Breedlove
on The Maps of Meaning book.
So, so first of all, if you want to check that out, we've got, we've got two
episodes released already and probably two more coming pretty soon here.
So if you want to check that out.
But all of his original stuff is a good, is a good intro as well.
Yeah, thanks, Knut.
But, um,
I'm just gonna say, like, subscribe, brush your teeth, and
go and watch Luke on Breedlove.
Yeah.
Thanks.
Thanks, Knut.
Uh,
I've got to check that
doing my best to, to, uh, uh, bring some of the things that have influenced me
out into the world a little bit better is kind of a almost decade, uh, really,
I, I guess it's, there's, there's a few years before I actually found this stuff,
but, uh, five, six years really of, uh, um, work on myself going into that.
This is actually leading to, uh, I'm, I'm trying to build in, uh, uh,
a talking point or a question here.
Uh, I think, I think one of the differences In the, um, what I've
found is that there's this sort of meta narrative, these archetypal figures
that stand for order, chaos, and the way you mediate between these things,
and it all comes down to that we have these shared maps of the world.
And by systematically destroying and recreating these maps, we
can navigate the world in a way that can create something new.
And I, I guess the hero, hero's journey parallels this to, to a
certain extent, but it, it also really, to me, there's, there's an aspect
of what it tells the individual.
to do.
Um, so I guess my question would be, what do you see as the role
of the individual in the world?
Like what, what, what is the thing that people need to do to find this meaning?
This is being the question that's, that's obsessed me for years.
And I needed to figure that out myself.
And what's your take on that?
that's a great question, um, I mean, truth is within you, I'll say that
straight out of the bag, like, it's not really something you need to go out and
look for, and this is, I think, I guess where a lot of people get confused,
that they're thinking, surely I've got a purpose that's more than just being me.
And that's kind of where people start to go off on all these tangents
and they start to look outside of themselves and they start to think,
well, you know, he does that and she does that and he's got a cool
girlfriend and all that kind of stuff.
And, you know, that guy's making that amount of money, so I've got
to bring myself to those places.
it gets, it just, it gets confusing, but I think, um, I don't think, I
don't, I think if you're able to listen to yourself clearly, and this is that
intention side of things, because it is internal attention, that's what
intention is, it's really listening to yourself, and Campbell, actually.
spoke about having a quiet space, a quiet place where you would just go and
try and really just be with yourself.
This is another myth, I shouldn't say that, this is another fallacy we have
in the world that is well, if you're alone, that must mean you're lonely.
People just find it so hard to be on their own these days.
it's, crazy.
Everyone needs this noise, this attention, sort of, you know, it's,
it's, it's unfortunate, but actually, yeah, people, people just can't find
themselves because they can't be truly with themselves very easily.
I agree with that so much.
Like, alone is very different from lonely.
Alone is deliberate.
I mean, uh, and, uh, speaking as a person who needs a lot of alone time,
like, I, I think it's so underrated.
Like, people should just Pause, stop, pause, and take a moment for themselves,
with themselves, with their own thoughts, like, recognize what that is, and I
think good things come out the other end.
Like, that's how, as a creative person, you have to do that.
Like, there's no other This is what John Cleese talks about, about
creativity, that you need to know that you're not going to be interrupted.
Like, not only do you need to not be interrupted, but you need to know that
you're not going to be interrupted.
Which is, which is why you need to be alone, and you need to
turn off your notifications.
Like, that's, otherwise nothing will come out the other end.
Like, you need that to be creative.
He gave a, did, did, I, I, I watched a video presentation, uh, he gave a
lecture on creativity that, that's what, um, that's what I saw of him and
it just blew my mind, he, the extent to which, um, and, and when you watch Monty
Python, you know, and you think, this seems so natural and so Just like, as
if it just fell into their hands, into their laps, and then you, then you hear
him talk about how much they pushed and struggled and searched for it, and you
think, wow man, that, they were seriously enlightened dudes to, to, um, and like
you say, like, it, it, they, he, he knew that he needed the space, he knew he
needed the time, and the reflection, and then he knew he needed to play, and he
needed to be able, they needed to have fun when they were doing it as well,
And, uh, he, he wrote a book about creativity, I think
it's called On Creativity.
It's a, it's a short book.
It's like a one hour audiobook, and John reads it himself.
So he, he keeps laughing at his own jokes, but it's, uh, it's wonderful
uh, and I can really recommend that because like he, he sort of debunks some
myths, like, write what you know about.
Well, that's like such a stupid piece of advice, because what am I gonna, what's
this parallel, what am I gonna do, what am I gonna write about pumpkin farming
in Arkansas, like, of course I'm gonna write what I know about, everyone does,
like, you cannot write about something you don't know about, like, it's obvious.
And, uh, Yeah, he's really good.
And that, and the, um, the documentary on how they make South Park, it was about
the, uh, human scent iPad episode, which is hilarious, and, uh, how they write
that, uh, so the six, the documentary is called Six Days to Air, and their creative
process is just magic as well, like six days to produce that from nothing to a
complete South Park episode, it's, to me, that's mind blowing, like, uh, But
that's why they, uh, uh, they can be able to stay so fresh all the time and
like be on point with the current thing.
Yeah, and that's a practice too, isn't it?
I mean, that, that, that ability to get into the different zones, um, with your
team, I mean, that, that, I, I, that was one thing about rehearsing with
a band that I found, I, I loved, but it was so spontaneous, and so hard to
predict, and so, Difficult to, like, the bands that do it, I, I really take my
hat off to them, like they, they have managed to, firstly they've managed to
stick together, which is literally like being married, like for years and years
and years, which, and okay, if you're getting paid well, then okay, you can,
you, you, I guess you just grin and bear it, But, and this brings to mind this
concept of, well, were we different as human beings, um, you know, in the past?
I mean, I mean, we clearly were, but like, our ability to withstand relationships in
the past seemed to, we just seemed to have a lot more tolerance for it in the past.
Now, we just seem to want to find ourselves.
It's much more, it's much more pressing.
At least, I don't know,
I think this is like an important thing to remember here is that
the 20th century was the outlier.
That's the experiment century.
Like that's when you could make money out of copies.
Like you couldn't make money out of copies before that
because you couldn't copy stuff.
So you simply didn't have the industrial revolution.
Um, Uh, and you can't make money off copies after that because you have
abundance because of the internet.
So, so music is infinitely copyable for no cost at all.
So, so, these, this notion of, you know, bands making money selling records
and, and, uh, selling movie tickets and stuff, it's, it's an era that
has It's come and gone, and it was an experimental era, but it was an anomaly
in a historical human sense, and I don't think it's coming back, we're never
gonna see superstars like Michael Jackson or whoever again, like, it's not the
same thing now, the mystery is gone.
I mean, there was something to that.
It's a special era in human history.
I mean, we'll never have another Elvis.
But still, for the most part, it's a good thing that we won't.
Because I think many of those people were pretty fucking miserable.
Madonna, for instance.
Or Michael Jackson.
The torture that some of these dudes must have gone through,
it must have been horrific.
And they just grinned and bared it because Right, right.
Poor dude,
heroes
that killed themselves,
like, it's, it's
fucking horrible.
I mean, imagine driving someone to fucking suicide.
I mean, that's just gotta be the most painful place in the world to do it.
And, I mean, I don't know, I guess He was fairly balanced, but, and he maintained
some kind of career, obviously, but, um, imagine just constantly thinking,
yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it one day, because this is fucking
hell, like, and, and, and the, the
Heroin
addiction probably had something to do with it, too.
Sure, sure.
But, but, it's no wonder that the industry collapsed on itself.
It, it literally killed itself because, like you say, because it
was able to just milk it and milk it and milk it and completely,
um, co opt everything around it.
You know, the, the media, the, the attorneys, the, the accountants, they were
all feeling like they eventually, they, they felt like they became the superstars.
I saw a really good interview this morning, by the way, with Michael
Beinhorn, if you're familiar with him, music producer from the 90s, with Rick
Beato, I think you're familiar with the big music production YouTuber.
If you're not, you should check him out.
But anyway, he was interviewing this Michael Beinhorn who used
to produce, you know, Soundgarden and Red Hot Chili Peppers and,
uh, a lot of groups in the 90s.
Uh, and he, uh, he was asked to compare, like, the climate now to the climate
in 93, like, 30 years down the line, what has changed and what is the same.
And, like, the first and foremost thing is that The, back then they at least had,
uh, they knew that the product had the potential to sell forever, or at least
they thought so, because if the song was good enough and touched people's
souls to a large enough extent, it could be, it could just keep on selling
decade after decade after decade, so that's why the, uh, the quality of the
music was higher, and now you have all these, like, uh, The ever shrinking
attention span makes it you get all the quantity and none of the quality.
It's basically a fiat disease.
And, you know, uh, what Bitcoin is doing is it's doing the same thing
to, that the internet did to the record industry, and like, blockbuster
video and so on, but to everything.
And that's so hard to wrap your head around, but it is doing that.
Like, there's no question about it.
It is Like, when there is a better system, an unstoppable idea, like,
people will flow over to that.
It's inevitable in that sense, as long as it just keeps on working.
And I think that's why this is such an orders of magnitude bigger shift
than we are capable of imagining.
Even the bitcoiners, no one knows where this is going, but it's
so much bigger than we think.
There's nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come.
And, like you say, man, um, We, no one knows, no one can
explain Bitcoin adequately.
And The mystery, I mean, Joseph Campbell talks about the four
things that make a mythology.
He talks about the mystery of a phenomenon, the
unknowableness of it to a degree.
He talks about the technology, the orders of magnitude above
what was previously before.
He talks about the social, That, he, he, and I'm relaying this because I
remember seeing him speak about it and he said that the new mythologies will
be global, that we've, we're done with these, you know, small minorities of,
we're in this part of the world and no one's going to hear about us, so we.
We, don't, like, how do I put this, we're, we're exclusive, we're exclusive
little clubs and that we can have our mythology and everything's cool.
The new mythologies are going to be human mythologies, and when I
say human, like, they're going to include the whole of the human race.
so, it needs to have mystery, it needs to be technologically
advanced, it needs to have this new.
Mass global culture about it, and complete inclusivity, and it
needs to have this individuation process that Jung talks about.
It needs to be a purification of the individual, it needs to be
transformative for the individual.
And as far as I can see, Bitcoin ticks all those boxes.
It literally, you know, Satoshi is the, the The magic and the, mystery,
um, technologically it's orders of magnitude, you know, more advanced
than we've ever, um, experienced, socially it's, it's a human, club.
It's a, it's a club of humanity.
It's a complete global cultural movement, and it's the
individuation process as well.
So it's, it's just, it's, anyway.
Not that I can.
Describe what Bitcoin is.
to, uh, slightly devil's advocate, or like, introduce another idea here.
So, for instance, uh, climate change, it's an idea, that uh, Has taken its
hold, uh, uh, on, uh, a lot of people.
And, uh, like regardless of what you think about how real the
problem is, I'm not debating that.
I'm just debating the belief that politicians can solve the problem
somehow, that a lot of people, and that's a global phenomenon for the most
part, at least in the Western world.
Uh, and it's not, to me the, the notion, the belief, That politicians can solve
a problem is very much like a religion or even a death cult, like it's, it's
a fear mongering at the highest level.
and a lot of bad people will be able to, to capture that and, and
use it for their own purposes.
That fear.
I mean, doomsday cults have always existed, like people have,
predicted the end of the world since the beginning of the world.
I mean, that's always been in the, that's a, uh, reoccurring
feature in people's minds.
All religions basically, Ragnaroks and the Hells and whatnot of, of
the different belief structures.
And like, this seems to be the latest reincarnation of that.
What's make the, what makes this one so scary is that it's so politicized and
it's so easily hijacked by, by people who, who use it for their own, like
the incentives are set up in such a way that The conglomerates and the big
players win, uh, because of this fear.
Um, so, so, so, so what do you think?
Like, is Bitcoin sufficiently good for everyone, uh, to, uh, to break
that vicious circle and, and like make people believe in something real
instead of something that can so easily, easily be captured by third parties.
I mean, fear is a force that, um, it grips, it grips groups of
people, and it's, and it's enforced by, you know, by, by what we
consume in terms of information.
So the, the monopoly.
Like you say, the monopoly of, this misinformation is a factor, but I
think, and this is the same argument with, with AI as well, I think like,
there's people that want fear in their life and they, they feel like.
They're kind of used to that way of expressing or seeing the world
now, so they're kind of happy with that fear in their life.
But I think Bitcoin solves the fear because Bitcoin, it just, it enables
this love to generate itself, quite.
Quite easily, really.
And bitcoin is, they become a force for love, um, in a way that, that,
it, it just eradicates this fear, and I, I, I can't, I mean, you know,
we can talk about the practicals of how Bitcoin mining is, you know, it's
happening bit by bit, but essentially it is the balancing of the world.
I think there's so many people who may have, you know, a fiat lifestyle or a
fiat way of doing things, but they're going to, at some point, come across.
The benefits of Bitcoin mining, in some way, whether it's hearing about
somebody who's using Bitcoin mining, and, you know, monetizing energy that
couldn't have been monetized before, or they're hearing about Bitcoin mining
that's You know, using renewable energy or, you, you know, sucking up the
wasted energy of fracking or, um, using the wasted energy of hydroelectric
dams or whatever they go, it's, it is proliferating and it's going to take time.
But I just don't think, with enough, I just don't think there's
anything big enough that's really going to scare people too badly.
I mean, the energy FUD and the Bitcoin is bad for the environment, it's just,
uh, deliberate or not, but it's just misunderstanding, and it's like, anyone
who writes anything, even remotely close to that, it's just Proving that they
don't see the bigger picture and that they have not understood what kind of problem
Bitcoin solves, because there's nothing as wasteful as fiat money printing,
like that missile allocates all the resources all the time and all this, that
you can, you know, use Bitcoin miners to stabilize the grid and use energy
that would have otherwise been wasted.
That's just a.
Bonus cherry on top of the real problem solver here, which is like stopping the
misallocation of resources worldwide.
So, so, it's just ignorant at this point.
Absolutely.
So, I have a question.
Like, is fear the opposite of love?
I mean, fear is the unknown, for me, and whenever I've felt fear, it's
the unknown factor somehow, so it doesn't, it shouldn't, and I don't
think it's ever reduced my love.
So, has it opposed my love?
I wouldn't say it's opposed my love, it's just been a factor of unknowingness
that's been greater than my confidence or my, my ability at the time.
I don't think it reduces my love, and, and, and I do believe hate is misplaced
love, so I think that love is pretty much.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's not the opposite.
I know
that hate is not the opposite of love.
yeah, hate is definitely not the opposite of love.
No, it's really misplaced love.
Um, fear, yeah, fear is, is, is, I, I would put fear more
in, in the category of just the darkness that you don't recognize.
It's the, and it is the darkness within you as well, I mean, I, I don't
think any of us are lacking in love.
Actually, you know, like, and, and, and, and, and we, we, and, and this
is so clearly visible as Bitcoiners now, because, we emanate love in such
a way that is so easy and so right that it's always, it's, it, it, there
wasn't a question of building it up.
In a way, it kind of, I remember speaking to Jeff Booth at Bitcoin 2021.
And, you know, I was a fucking, you know, terrible, you know, fanboy, and I
raced up to him, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, you know, and I was, he didn't fucking know
me from Adam, and he was like, hey man, you know, like, what the fuck, dude.
And anyway, I was just, uh, and I was, I, and he said, look,
man, like, This is humanity.
This is how humanity is when the fear disappears and it's just, it's the
breaking down of all of the barriers.
It, it's just pure love because, because, and okay, look, I'm not saying that,
you know, Bitcoin is made, it's just, it's made us all, you know, hold hands
and sing ring a ring a rosy, right?
Like it, it, we have, we still have ups and downs in our, our.
our darkness that we have to deal with, but that darkness is just something
that is within the individual.
It's not a boogeyman outside, really.
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this is, uh, one of my later thoughts about it.
It's that Bitcoin is not the signal.
Speaking of Jeff Booth, who's, uh, wrote an article find, uh, titled
Finding Signal in the Noise, the way I see it, Bitcoin is not the signal.
But it's the greatest tool for noise removal ever, ever invented.
Like, that's, that's the thing.
So we're, we're, by having this noise remover, we enable ourselves to
find whatever the signal is, because I think the signal is subjective.
Like,
Each and everyone has a
different signal to look
so true, so true.
And, and, and, and we all end up being a little bit different as
Bitcoiners, but funnily enough.
Um, there's something very basic about us as Bitcoiners as well, like, like,
I like to think of us as being very human, just like, you know, Bitcoin, it
gets rid of this concept that we are, and I know this sounds kind of weird,
but it, it somehow gets rid of my, Judgmentalness, as well, like I don't, I
don't judge people anymore in a way, like.
Whatever shape they are, whatever age they are, I honestly believe Bitcoin gets
rid of age, by the way, it, it, it truly feels like we're all on the one level
here, whether I'm talking, and you know, when I, I think of Princey's kids when,
whenever I meet them at conferences and, and, you know, like I talk to them just
like I'm talking to you guys, like, like, as in, or I talk to them the way I talk to
Like, there's no, there's just no barriers anymore to humanness with Bitcoin,
That reminds me of a David Bowie quote, uh, the uh, aging is the process of slowly
becoming who you were always meant to be.
and I think that's, uh, Bitcoin accelerates that process.
that's absolutely.
And you know, but I've, I've seen videos of Bowie and I've
thought, that's fucking magic.
That's the magic that Bitcoin has.
Bitcoin is a tool, but what Bitcoin does through us as humans.
is magical.
It's, truly what enables us to be authentically ourself, which when we
become authentically ourself, and that's what Bowie was doing, was magical.
It, it seemed magical, but he was just channeling, like, like
you were talking before, like it's, it's this connection with.
And I, I, you know, Alan Watts is another one that comes to mind now.
The, the connection with the greater, universe that is speaking through
you, because, because this is consciousness observing the universe.
It's, that's all we are really.
We're, we're literally, we're literally observing the universe as the universe in
this fucking amazing, yeah, consciousness.
Back
to the Booth episode here with the consciousness.
Reality is a reflection of your consciousness back at you.
Like, uh, I love that.
Yeah.
And Bowie, like, his last album, I mean, he died a week after
he made his last music video.
And it's absolutely spectacularly good, like, it's scary as fuck, because
he's a dying man, so it's, it's not, it's a dark song, and the visuals are
very dark, but like, that guy turned his entire life into a piece of art.
There's a site, there's a site called what David Bowie was doing at your age.
So you can, if you want to feel bad for your career at any point,
you can just look up what David Bowie was doing at your age.
And it's just, oh, he won an Oscar for some movie here, or like,
he's made three albums here, or he played Wembley Stadium here.
It's something, something that is way cooler than whatever
you were doing at that age.
And I just love that because it's such a, such a role model for artists.
In general, uh, and he didn't have to make that last album at all.
It's like, he knew he was dying, like, uh, but he, uh, he made
it because he had to, like
yeah, he's such a great example, because there's something about him that was
kind of a little bit, like I remember a quote of his, and it was, again, it was
one of his later albums, and somebody asked him, hey man, how do you feel
about, you know, releasing your new music, you must be really excited, and
he was like, I'm fucking terrified.
I'm absolutely fucking terrified.
I've never, you know, and he was like, but you, you're fucking
David Bowie, man, like, like, everyone's gonna fucking love it.
And he was like, man, everything I do is proving to myself again
that I'm, like, can I do it?
Like, if I'm going to do something, I need to I need to be completely critical
of myself, just like I was when I was writing stuff from the very beginning.
And I thought, wow man, like that, that's fucking intense,
like, like he's a magician to me.
Like he's so profound in the way he creates, and like you say, his whole life.
And, and again, I think this is what Bitcoin is going
to enable us to do as well.
It's going to enable every human to be a creator.
Like there's this
be more like David Bowie.
Yeah, to be magical.
I mean, this weird concept we have that, you know, an artist is a specific kind
of person and, you know, to be an artist is something specifically special.
But actually we are all creators.
I mean, a, a woman.
is a creation machine.
I mean, literally, she gives birth, right?
She expresses milk.
I mean, she creates.
but being a creator is, um, is what we all are.
We all are, uh, everything we do is a reflection of ourselves
coming out into the world.
And that's what we've forgotten about in fiat terms.
We've forgotten that, that, you know, because we don't like, we
don't like what we're bringing out into the world in fiat terms.
If you're, if you're going to some job that you fucking hate, you're
bringing something out into the world that you're not proud of, or that
you're, You're rejecting because, and you're thinking to yourself, I have
to do this because of X, Y, and Z.
and you know, yeah, they, all the, all the, I keep thinking, Alan Watson,
Joseph Campbell, and Carl Jung.
They were absolute bitcoiners in the sense that they preached
that go out and find your bliss.
Go out and, you know, um, ignore the money.
Right?
Ignore the, the, the attitude that you need to fit a certain role model.
Um, and it, and, and, and it's because of people like David Bowie and John Lennon
that I think, um, you know, they, like, everyone's led to This concept of Bitcoin,
really, I think it's, it, it, it just happened at a certain time and a certain
place, but I think Bitcoiners were all over the place before Bitcoin, it's just
that they, they, you know, they just expressed in different ways and, yeah,
and musicians are a great example of just how Bitcoin has existed in the past, yeah.
Frank Zappa would have definitely been a bitcoiner,
Right?
and so would Leonardo
da Vinci, by the way.
So, like, uh, I can
think of so many names
that you just
know.
If
you know, you know, right?
right, and, and Leonardo was a universal warmall, right?
This universal human being, that I, and, and, and this is kind of why the chocolate
thing has kind of come up for me as well, because the music led me to Bitcoin, and
then the Bitcoin led me to the chocolate.
And in a way, I don't know where the chocolate's gonna lead me,
Yeah.
Anything else on your mind?
Uh, any of you?
Like, Luke?
Roger?
I'll, I'll leave it with you Roger, by the way.
Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'll, I'll, I'll leave it with you.
This has been a fantastic conversation, but, uh, I, I, I think if I, if I tease
this into any more other different rabbit holes, uh, yeah, we'll be here forever.
So, uh, for, for future conversations, 'cause this was fantastic and we'll
definitely need to have you back on.
But yeah, any, any final thoughts and where can, uh, our listeners
find you on the internet so they can follow you and follow what you do?
Look, gentlemen, it's been absolutely, um, mind blowing, and I, I, I
expected it would be, so I'm really happy that my expectations were met.
I can't wait to see you gentlemen in Perth.
Are you gonna be at Madeira, by the way?
Of course!
I mean, does the Pope shit in the forest?
Of course we are!
Excellent.
Um, I will be there with bells on.
Um, I'm going to be doing a Bitcoin bush bush bash.
I do Hope you gentlemen can make it for a Bitcoin push bash one of these days.
I'm doing one actually here at my place, which, um, is out in the middle of fucking
nowhere, but that's the whole point of it.
So that's, that's kind of the next thing I can't wait for, um, but then
Madeira, yeah, and then Bitcoin Alive?
Oh no, no, there's Beechworth before that, which is another bush bash.
But um, is there any chance of seeing either of you at Bitcoin Alive maybe?
I haven't heard from them yet, so I don't know.
We'll see.
I certainly enjoyed it last year.
Like, it was fantastic.
I loved Sydney.
Um, yeah.
And, um, yeah, but when do you arrive on Madeira, do you know?
Like, um I'm there quite early, so I'm there for like three weeks, so
we'll definitely see each other there.
Oh wow, excellent, yeah, okay, is, um, is, uh, Rock O Moto
happening at Madeira, do you know?
That
Yeah, uh, yeah, I think it is.
Some type of rockamoto is happening, for sure.
I don't know the details of it yet, but we'll have to put something together.
Uh, I'd love that.
You know, I loved that Enriga when we played that, uh, what's
it's song, what's the song called?
Uh, 500 Miles.
You know, the, I will walk 500 miles.
It's, it's literally three notes, and I play bass, and, which is, which is
perfect, because it's, it's so easy to play, so you have, like, The attention
to actually playing to the song is like 2 percent of the performance and the rest
is just, yeah, getting people riled up.
I absolutely love it.
Yeah.
Fantastic.
is the coolest thing about Rockemono, for sure, for sure.
So where can people find you offline?
Or online?
Offline is the middle of nowhere, Australia.
Uh, and, uh, online.
Um, I mean, I mean, Twitter is roger__9000,
two underscores,
Roger9000.
com is, is my website, and that is, yeah, all the, the YouTube and stuff.
I've, I've, I've, you know, what I tend to do is, I do a video, which is
supposed to be a visual of what I do live.
But, people kind of tell me, man, we don't get any, we don't get any feeling
for what you do live, online, you know, because what I do live is kind
of really different to what happens, what people see online, so, I'm kind of
not big on I guess promoting my online stuff, which is kind of a shame, but I
don't know, I've got to work that out.
I kind of feel like I'm missing something there, but um, yeah, I just have so much
fun playing live, so, yeah, roger9000.
com, that's probably the best place.
All right.
Hey, Roger, thank you so much for joining us.
You guys are legends.
Knut, take us away.
Yeah.
Don't forget to like, subscribe and brush your teeth and all that, and
bush bush bash and bash bash bush bish, and all of the other stuff.
So uh, this has been the Freedom Footprint Show, have a nice rest of
your life people, and see you next time.