I'm so bullish because I think there's seriously maybe 0.
01 percent of the global population who actually understand Bitcoin.
A lot of people say that there's 10 to 20 to 30 million users of Bitcoin
and, you know, quote unquote crypto.
But I think a very small subset of people actually understand Bitcoin.
And when the world slowly begins to realize what Bitcoin is and why they
desperately need it, I don't think there's going to be many Bitcoin
available for them on exchanges for sale.
So I am very, very bullish.
Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint show, the Bitcoin
philosophy show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn.
Today, we turn up our energy and our bullishness with Luke Mikic, digital
nomad and Bitcoin content creator.
In this conversation, we get to know Luke and what makes him so bullish.
We explore Bitcoin as a monetary technology, Business in a
hyperbitcoinized world, and the necessity of monetary velocity.
We also get some insight on producing bitcoin content online, and we
debate how fast adoption should be.
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a bit more about them later.
And now, without further ado, here is Luke Mikic on the Freedom Footprint show.
Luke, welcome to the Freedom Footprint Show.
Thanks for joining us.
Thank you so much for having me, lads.
I'm ex pretty excited for this
Oh, great to hear.
This is, a dashing Luke Jr.
as opposed to a Luke Jr.
It's another Luke, and it's Luke Mickage.
Live from where in the world exactly?
I'm in Brazil right now, and it's,
yeah, I, I'm pretty, I'm pretty open with my, uh, surroundings.
I hope nobody tries a $5 wrench attack on me.
I'm in Florian Opolis, Brazil right now.
If anyone does want to try it.
All right.
And, uh, how long have you been in Brazil?
the girlfriend and I did Rio for a month.
We did Sao Polo for a month, and now we're in Florian Opolis for another month.
Florinopolis.
Sounds like Antonopolis.
Sounds
It does a little bit.
It does.
Funny enough.
It's a, it's a little bit like it's namesake, Antonopolis.
There's lots of Bitcoiners down here.
It's a great little part of Brazil.
Um, Polish is a city in, in Greek, right?
Acropolis, all this mm-hmm.
. And you're one of the people in the world who are actually more bullish than I am.
aren't you or are in a race?
let's do it.
A friendly competition.
I reckon we can get pretty bullish today.
Yeah, we were having a small chat about who the most bullish Luke
is, and we, it's probably you.
So.
broils on yet?
We had Broyles on, uh, like half a year ago or something, right?
maybe even earlier than
Now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Uh, when he was first kind of out in the, in the scene and, and all
this, and around the same time you were coming on our radar too.
And, uh, one thing just hasn't led to another quite soon enough.
So super glad to have you here, first of all.
And, can you give us the TLDR on your story and your Bitcoin story and why
you're more bullish than Luke Broyles?
Thanks.
um, okay.
I'll try to keep it as short as I can.
Uh, Bitcoin came across my radar.
When I was 19 at the time, I was at university studying a double
major in maths and chemistry.
I went down the rabbit hole pretty hard in three weeks, listened to just about every,
episode and interview that Max Kaiser and Andreas Antonopoulos ever recorded.
Uh, I learned enough about.
Bitcoin in three weeks to come to the conclusion that I was not
going to go back to university.
So I took a gap year.
I started my own personal training business with the sole goal, just to
free up more time to learn about Bitcoin.
That was 2017.
And since then, I've just been talking shit about Bitcoin full
time online for the past, you know, past three to four years.
It took me a couple of years to wave through the, uh, the sea of
shit coins there in 2018 and 2019.
I learned my lessons and now I'm just trying to tell everybody.
about the, uh, the Bitcoin gospel, because I do believe it's probably the
biggest technological revolution we have ever discovered as a civilization.
I think it's bigger than fire.
I think it's bigger than the wheel.
I think it's bigger than the internet.
Uh, so that is potentially why I could be more bullish than
my namesake, Luke Broyles.
It could just be our youth.
We are both in our twenties.
We're both pretty young and crazy, but I'm pretty bullish myself.
And I'm pretty excited to explore that rabbit hole with you lads today.
Uh oh, I've just, uh, I've just graduated from my 20s, so yeah, I guess that's why
I'm not nearly as bullish as you guys.
Sorry, Knut, go ahead.
Yeah, I'm just curious, is this radar of yours still in your possession,
or did you sell it for sats?
I've sold everything for sats.
You can see I'm standing.
There's no chairs behind me, lads.
Everything's sold for sats.
There's even a hole in the wall there.
Exactly, have a look at it.
We sold your TV as well as your radar, I guess,
It's all gone.
good to hear.
I mean, there's not much use for a radar on dry land anyway.
a good thing you picked up Bitcoin though.
Yeah.
So, so give us, a bit more depth on why you're so bullish about Bitcoin.
Like why, what makes you see this in a way that other people don't?
I know some people do, which this equation on my t shirt may allude to, my stance on
bullishness, but, what does Bitcoin mean to you and why do you love it so much?
I don't even know where to begin.
I, I, I think just the fact that we've discovered digital scarcity,
I think that's going to be an enormous, mind to F excuse my French.
I don't want to get you guys kicked off YouTube, but I think when people
come to realize that there's only 21 million Bitcoin, ever available for
sale, I think you're going to see potentially the biggest supply squeeze,
uh, in financial market history.
I don't even think it's going to be close to any sort of a competition,
but there's going to become a day in the future where every single person on
planet earth is trying to buy Bitcoin.
And today there's only 2 million Bitcoin sitting on exchanges.
So I think a large majority of that 21 million supply is not going to
move for the next hundred years.
It's going to flow into the hands of people like Michael Saylor, who in
his own words, if we believe Michael Saylor, I know some people don't,
but I personally do, if you believe Michael Saylor, he's not going to
sell his coins for a hundred years.
There's, you know, Michael Saylor sitting on 150, 000 coins.
There's
No, it's a, he's going to die with them.
At least that's what he alluded to on our show here.
Luke, uh, Luke, right.
Too many
Please elaborate.
Yep.
is gonna get confusing if you just say Luke, Knut.
You're Luke, our guest Luke, you're Luke for today, I can be something else,
You can be Finn, other people have called you Finn because of the pseudo fin I call.
Can I call you danger because I know that's your middle name?
Yes, Danger is my middle name,
Yeah.
Good,
you could call me crazy hair Luke, that might be a little bit easier.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, Michael Sailor was on the show and he said something that he has
alluded to in other shows as well.
What he said was like the most altruistic thing a person can do is
die with their bitcoins in their heads, uh, because then you take them off
market forever and you increase the scarcity of the, uh, of the thing.
So, you help everyone on earth instead of giving them to a select few people,
you give them to everyone, or you give the value of the scarcity To everyone.
Uh, so what are your thoughts when you hear that?
I feel like there's going to be a growing cohort of people
who see Bitcoin the same way.
I think all three of us on this call are probably going to do something similar.
I know the small amount of coins that I sit on won't be
moving for many, many decades.
They'll be passed on to my future generations.
I don't even have kids yet.
I don't even have a wife yet.
Sorry, honey.
She's in the lounge room.
She can hear me say that.
There will be a ring coming one day.
Uh, but I mean, like I, I'm not moving my Bitcoin for a long time.
And I, I think the.
10 20 or 30 thousands psychopaths on Twitter probably feel
about Bitcoin the same way.
And I'm so bullish because I think there's seriously maybe 0.
01 percent of the global population who actually understand Bitcoin.
A lot of people say that there's 10 to 20 to 30 million users of Bitcoin
and, you know, quote unquote crypto.
But I think a very small subset of people actually understand Bitcoin.
And when the world slowly begins to realize what Bitcoin is and why they
desperately need it, I don't think there's going to be many Bitcoin
available for them on exchanges for sale.
So I am very, very bullish.
No, I totally agree.
everyone underestimates this upcoming satsqueeze.
that's what Adam Beck told us that, according to him and his interpretation
of glass node data, there's a million or a million addresses with around one
coin in them that they think are, uh, D CERs that have accumulated, that had
the target of one coin and like, Only of like 2 million can do that maybe.
But then it gets tricky because there just aren't enough coins and the people
who already have one coin, many of them are going to want another coin.
And, and also if people do the altruistic move and die with the coins.
I mean we idiots here we are the first generation of Bitcoiners.
And we're going to squander them away in droves, like there's not going to
be much left for future generations.
So whatever's left is good.
It's still going to be divisible, but especially, on the Lightning Network
and, and such like to, , infinitesimal parts, but they're going to be so scarce.
So, just the same demand as now over a long enough time period.
It also leads to that Heinz ketchup bottle effect, like gradually then suddenly.
is that the way you see it too?
Yeah.
I think like, I think something in Bitcoin fundamentally changed three years ago.
Like for the first time in Bitcoin's life, coins actually started
leaving exchanges in March of 2020.
for the first 10 years, that amount of Bitcoin sitting on exchanges only grew.
So it went from zero to like 3 million.
Today, we're sitting at around 2 million ish coins sitting on exchanges.
So in the past three years, you've literally just watched a million
coins disappear off exchanges.
We don't know where they're going.
All we know from that on chain data you mentioned there, Knut, is it's
going to wallets who don't have a history of selling their Bitcoin.
So I think like that supply squeeze, that ketchup bottle some sort
of a squeeze that he's coming.
I think it's going to come pretty, pretty soon.
Uh, like if you extrapolate forwards the past three years of data,
you've got no Bitcoin sitting on exchanges in around 2028, 2029.
I mean, there's only 2 million Bitcoin sitting on exchanges.
Um, and I've got a thesis that we're going to see some sort of billionaire FOMO.
So Michael Saylor's got 150, 000 coins and right now there's only enough
Bitcoin sitting on exchanges for like 10 or 11 or maybe 12 Michael Saylor
to also accumulate 150, 000 coins that he holds between himself and
his, micro strategy corporate entity.
So you've got enough Bitcoin for 12 Michael Saylor and
there's like, uh, what is it?
Is there 50, 000 public companies and something like 3 to 4, 000
billionaires all potentially fighting over 2, 000 Bitcoin left on exchanges?
Yeah, this, this reminds me of a video we made a couple of years back about the
S curve adoption of new technologies, where you have this ketchup effect,
and then there's a saturation at the other end of the S, where it levels out.
So like the TV or the smartphone or the internet, they all
had S shaped adoption curves.
And, it went very quickly for a short period.
And then when everyone's, uh, basically everyone on earth is on board and has
a smartphone, then it levels out again.
and that is probably the case for Bitcoin as well.
Uh, but the, the, the thing we argued for in that video is like, we don't really
see that happening to the Bitcoin's price though, that will not follow an S curve.
It would just continue to go up.
And I've been thinking this over so many times and it's kind of hard to
wrap your head around because like, there's something to be said for in
a hyperbitcoinized world where the only thing that is used as a medium of
exchange between people at all is Bitcoin.
then Bitcoin will only reflect the total purchasing power of society.
And that's expected to go up by five to 15 percent per year.
So it is still appreciated 15%.
But think that through one step further after hyperbitcoinization,
we have a global free markets.
based on sound money, no interventionism, nothing.
And you add to that AIs and stuff, like it's just unstoppable what the
human race can do with that power.
Like, I don't think.
15 percent growth is a given just because that's the case now when we measure
bullshit metrics like BNP, GDP and stuff.
BNP is the Swedish abbreviation, but it's GDP, which includes
medication and stuff so the actual.
Advancement of civilization will accelerate obviously, because the
market is more well oiled, very much like I view the current fiat
paradigm, global market as a dog on three legs at best, because there's
interventionism everywhere, and therefore resource misallocation everywhere.
what are your views on that?
Will Bitcoin have an only up point where there's only upwards after that
point and it cannot ever go down again.
Like, how do you see that?
Yeah, I think I actually, so I wrote an article on this topic in 2021 saying,
look, Bitcoin's a monetary technology.
If we think it's a technology that's going to go mainstream, it should follow
this kind of S curve adoption path.
And I remember specifically quoting that video that you guys made, uh, over
on Ione Apperberg's YouTube channel, because it influenced my thinking a lot.
And I think you guys actually said, no, Bitcoin is not an S curve.
An S curve assumes that your adoption's actually going to level off at some stage.
But as you kind of alluded to, Bitcoin's a monetary J curve.
It's going up forever because Bitcoin is the savings account of the world.
If the world continues to become more and more productive into the
future, where are those continued productivity gains going to be stored?
They're not going to be stored in some speculative tech
stock like they are today.
They're going to be stored in the world's dominant store of value, which is money.
It's going to be stored in Bitcoin and Bitcoin is going to go up forever.
So I think like, I think the biggest meme in Bitcoin today in 2023 is this
idea of diminishing returns theory.
Lots of people have drawn these cute little models over the past 12 years.
And they've said, Oh, look, you know, Bitcoin's giving diminishing
returns every four year bull market.
And I think all of these stupid models like that are going to be absolutely.
Um, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,
uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,
uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,
uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,
uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh Bitcoin's an all or nothing binary bet, the same way
CKE does, and I think it either becomes the dominant store of value for the
world or it fails and it goes to zero.
Um, so I think it's really an all or nothing kind of bet here.
Yeah.
That's so fascinating to think about.
Because Bitcoin is.
Deflationary, especially in the long run, like there's no way around that,
especially as we start losing sats.
Because after 2140, it's absolutely deflationary because
more sats lost than found.
Already,
there's like 92 percent of the supply or something that have
already been found, right?
So most of the coins are already out there.
And the remaining million, it's going to be mined over more than a hundred
years, which is so weird to think about.
the Keynesian argument is that deflation is bad because you don't
get the velocity of money because people will spend less and they see
every transaction as creating value.
Which I think is flawed, because that doesn't take into account that
people in that type of environment, in an inflationary environment, they
will prioritize quantity over quality.
So what Bitcoin does is it reverses that, uh, completely.
I always like to say that it's...
The one divided by clown world.
It's the literal inverse of the clown world over consumerist
bullshit world where politicized everywhere thing we're living in now.
so what that means is that everyone on earth will know the preciousness of
their bitcoins and therefore they will be very careful with spending them.
But envisioning what a hyperbitcoinized world actually looks like is
so weird Everyone's stack will need to diminish over time.
Very few people will actually be able to have black numbers
on their balance sheets.
Everyone's stack will go down over time.
Still, their purchasing power can still go up since the value of the coins go up.
or the value of everything else, then the coins go up.
So I imagine a world where you can start a company, which by the way in the future is
nothing but a telegram group or something.
You don't really need every, all these other structures that are around
companies, uh, legal structures and, you know, government imposed stuff.
you just need a bunch of people who talk to one another to start a business and.
I even see a scenario when people start businesses not to make
more bitcoins, but to make their stacks diminish a little slower.
it's like the derivative of the, the gain curve and not the gains themselves.
So, there's so much to explore there.
Have you given a.
A lot of thought to a post hyperbitcoinization scenario,
what that actually means.
Yeah, I think it's gonna, like you say, I think it's gonna be
the antithesis of CloudMortar.
Everything's gonna look so much different.
Today everybody's gorging on debt.
There's like 400 trillion dollars of debt around the world.
On a Bitcoin standard, I see that shrinking by 90%.
Like it's just going to be really difficult to take out
debt in a form of money that's appreciating at such a rapid rate.
Even if we're ultra conservative, and let's say Bitcoin's only appreciating at
say like 5 or 10 percent per year, if you take out debt, you're going to have
to outpace that appreciation of Bitcoin.
You need to start a business that right out the bat is appreciating at
Faster than 5 or 10 percent per year.
And that's very difficult.
How long has it taken Tesla to become profitable?
I don't think they're even profitable.
I think they rely only on government handouts and government subsidies.
So some of the most successful and biggest companies around the world
today, only have the market cap that they do because they've been able to.
Feast on this debt.
They've been extraordinarily wasteful.
They've been pursuing ideas that simply aren't profitable and the free market
doesn't really, uh, you know, want, they don't desire the products they're making,
like Budweiser, for example, all of the ridiculous marketing that they're doing
around the world is completely uneconomic.
They can only do it because there's a money printer.
They can cozy up to and get endless debt.
So I think there's going to be like a debt is probably the biggest thing.
Potentially going to flip on a Bitcoin standard, and that's going to
change everybody's time preference.
Uh, you're going to have to change the way you think about money, and you're
going to have to change the way you think about how you allocate your money and
your savings, um, on a Bitcoin standard.
Yeah, Budweiser might not be gay, but it's still like making love in a canoe.
Like, it's fucking close to water.
Yeah,
Yeah, so...
I'd like to explain another one of my current thoughts around what Bitcoin
is, maybe you've heard it before that when you really think deep and
hard about what owning a Bitcoin means or possessing a Bitcoin means,
it's nothing but Keeping a secret.
it's either the location of a Bitcoin private key or the actual private key
itself, but it doesn't really matter you've hidden it properly, the secret
is the Bitcoin, like whoever has that secret in their brains, has the Bitcoins
and only brains can keep secrets.
So, in effect, that means that we are our bitcoins, everyone in bitcoin is the
bitcoins, and also if you think about miners and nodes, the computers used in
mining and in just running a bitcoin node Each and every computer is just a fancy
abacus that helps us, with calculation.
So the, the ASIC is not the miner.
It's the guy owning the ASIC and deciding to run the software.
And the node is not the, it's not the Raspberry Pi.
It's the guy who owns the Raspberry Pi and runs Umbra or whatever, or Bitcoin Core.
So every participant in Bitcoin is those Bitcoins.
And to me, this is one of the more philosophical rabbit holes
to fall into in this, because that means we run this mathematical
experiment in the back of our heads.
And somehow it unlocks a way for us to, not only transact, but to interact
with one another in ways that are, Possible to explore pre Bitcoin.
So, so, so humanity gets into a whole new level and, and us three, for
instance, we're all incentivized to help one another because we're Bitcoiners.
And we know if we help other Bitcoiners succeed with whatever their
endeavor is, we help Bitcoin succeed because we help other Bitcoiners.
And it's not only that we, we all want Bitcoin to succeed.
So we all want to, you know, quote unquote, pump our bags.
You know, the power of hodling and the power of a low time preference.
So we're all incentivized to keep a low time preference and help one another.
And what I see that leading to is a world where money gets used less and less.
Because everyone's incentivized to just be awesome to one another
without exchanging anything, because everyone knows how precious sats are.
And do you even need to transact at all if you could just help the
other guy and you know you'll get something back sooner or later.
So like, these are the more ephemeral thoughts I have around this.
What are your thoughts?
I think it's a really interesting rabbit hole to explore.
It's something I haven't given a whole bunch of thought, but I think
it's like Bitcoin takes money back.
To some of its earliest roots, like money has always been a ledger.
And back in the early days when we were like hunters and gatherers,
just slowly discovering what money was, it was a lot more like that.
It was a lot more communal.
It was more like a reputation based, small community where
you do a favor for someone else.
and They repay you and do a favor back to you.
And so I think Bitcoin is going to completely flip,
how we think about money.
That's something I've never thought about how, , that's going to kind of decrease
the transactions because we're just going to want to do favors for each other.
That's a really interesting rabbit hole that I personally need to
think about a little bit more, but.
Uh, like you say, when you are your Bitcoin, that changes not only how you
interact with some peers in your society and your community around you, but it
also changes like the logic of violence, like gone are the days that you can just
storm into someone's home, kill them and take all their wealth, whether it's stored
in gold, fiat, or a safe or stupid Rolex watches, like shit boy crypto has, like
now to actually get somebody's wealth,
by crapto.
Yeah, I like that.
That's great.
Shit boy, crap though.
Yeah, Bitcoin completely changes all of that.
For thousands of years, you could just roll into another city, kill
everybody and take their gold and you've got all of their wealth.
Gone are the days of that on a Bitcoin standard.
You actually need to get the secret out of their head.
Sure, some people might give up their secret if they're tortured
enough, but I know some people won't.
And it's...
If you store your Bitcoin correctly in a multi signature setup, it's actually
impossible to get somebody's wealth.
Yeah, just from a game theory perspective there, you get
half if you torture someone.
Like, half the time you kill them and you get nothing, and half the time you
get everything, or like, I think there's some game theoretical argument to be
made for the average being half over time given enough transactions, or threats.
think that's a good average.
I think that's a good average.
I think that average will skew the further we move on to a Bitcoin setup.
Standard because I'm hopeful that more and more people, uh, will
adopt superior, security practices.
Like I'm pretty comfortable doxxing my full name out there, because I have
a pretty secure multisignature setup.
Like if someone wants my Bitcoin, all right, put me on
a flight, get cozy with me.
'cause you're gonna have to take me to Australia as well as a few
other countries who actually get all of my private keys to move Bitcoin
outta my Multisignature wallet.
And I think as.
Technology advances.
And as that becomes a lot more easier and accessible for the everyday person
to do, I'm pretty hopeful that that's going to actually decrease the amount
of violence, um, on a Bitcoin standard.
So I'm super bullish on what Bitcoin is going to do.
Yeah, I tried to put all the gist of that into a sentence of one of my books.
And I think it is, uh, the line is, when you cannot know how much another
person owns and you cannot take it by force, there's no other way for
you to extract value from that person than giving something of value back.
And this is a key point when you cannot know how much another person owns,
because right now it is true that it's impossible for anyone on earth to know how
much bitcoins anyone else actually owns.
You may be able to do some chain anal stuff and find out a part of that
person's bitcoin stack, but you cannot prove that you don't own a bitcoin.
Like, since it's just keeping a secret, There's no way of knowing how many other
people know that secret, or if a person knows more than one secret, there's no way
of knowing, which, like you say, alters the shelling point of violence, violence
is not as profitable as it used to be, and it will never go back, it will only
be less and less profitable over time.
That's how I see the world.
That's how I think Bitcoin standards going to change things.
I think it's going to take time.
Like you say, over time, I can see a pretty turbulent path that we may
take towards a Bitcoin standard.
I think a lot of people might not be prepared for.
That's personally why I'm never going to be living in a G7 Western nation
state for the next few years until the turbulence kind of blows over.
I won't be returning back to the beach.
Open air prison of Australia, because I can see potentially a scenario unfolding
for public figures like ourselves, where the government comes pretty hard at us.
Again, it's only a hypothetical scenario.
There's lots of possibilities.
Nobody knows how the future is going to play out.
But again, I do agree with you there, Knut.
I think over time, violence is going Bitcoin standard.
Yeah, so there are a lot of people that argue for a slow transition into a Bitcoin
standard because of this turbulence that might arise, but I think that's a case
to be made for a really, really rapid Bitcoin adoption phase since All it does
is remove violence from the equation.
The thing that people leave out of that is that they're being
violated against right now.
People are stealing their stuff.
They are being threatened.
There's a threat of violence to each and everyone's head.
If you're paying taxes, well, you can argue for and against.
Taxes, I guess, on some level, I think, that you can deductively reason yourself
to that taxes are always a net negative, but especially with inflation, which
is, it's hard to argue for inflation in any shape or form once you realize
that it's just theft and it's just counterfeiting and it's nothing but that.
But, but that's what Bitcoin removes.
So to me, removing violence and adopting Bitcoin are literally
two sides of the same coin.
They're the exact same phenomenon.
Yeah, and I, I'm, I'm a fan of that thesis, Knut.
I think if you rip the bandaid off, I, I'm actually one of
the people who agree with you.
And I actually think it probably is going to be better if we transition to
Bitcoin really rapidly and really quickly.
For, for years there, I used to say, look, I think Bitcoin's going to be adopted
really rapidly and really quickly, but I don't want it to happen like that
because it's going to be very turbulent.
Could be very messy, could be very violent, but maybe in the past 12
months, I've shifted my thinking a little bit surrounding that and
kind of come to the conclusion after listening to your thoughts for a while.
that It does make a little bit more sense.
Why don't we just rip the bandaid off and transition to a world where it's
far harder to lie to people and it's far harder to steal someone's wealth.
Makes a lot of sense.
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Luke, do you have any, do you have any, anything on your mind?
I, I see you're thinking something there.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, this has been a whole, whole good vein, and
I think I'd like to tie this
Oh, sorry.
Danger.
Thanks.
K.
I think I'd like to, I'd like to pull this into a little bit of, uh,
a little bit of what you are doing in the Bitcoin scene community.
You have your YouTube, channel and what are you trying to do with that?
What are you trying to, accomplish, to advance Bitcoin?
Yes, I personally have a couple of different YouTube
channels that I make videos for.
I've got a personal one, but then I also make videos for Coinbeast.
Uh, so we have a YouTube channel called Money Matters and we just
make Bitcoin only education.
Um, and I also, uh, kind of train other Bitcoiners and other Bitcoin
YouTubers, uh, to how to kind of...
Hack virality in their content.
So, uh, I also kind of, help YouTubers grow their audience so that
they can orange pill more people.
Cause that's my mission at the end of the day, orange pill more people.
And I think if we are going to actually reach some sort of hyperbitcoinization,
we actually sadly do need to interact with these platforms normies are.
Uh, we can shout all we want on Twitter, but it's pretty simple.
Most of my normie friends aren't on Twitter.
They're on YouTube, they're on Instagram.
So my mission is to try to make some easily digestible, Bitcoin only content
over on YouTube that catches the masses.
Sometimes that involves clickbaiting a little bit.
And sometimes if you can clickbait a lot of new people, you can actually
deliver them an orange pill, uh, that's kind of wrapped up in some clickbait,
you know, crypto scammery that's on YouTube because when I was learning
about Bitcoin, I primarily went to YouTube in 2018 and 2019, and that's
where I got scammed because there was no Bitcoin only content on there.
Okay.
I learned a little bit from Max and Andreas, but everything else, it was just
crypto trading, all of this other trash.
Um, so that's my mission, just trying to orange pill the world.
And I think, , what I am doing right now is probably the closest.
I'm trying to doing the most that I can.
I've nearly published my first book.
Um, and I'm focusing pretty heavily on YouTube and helping
other people master YouTube.
Great.
And did you say coin based?
Or
Yeah.
Coinbase.
Yeah, that sounds way better.
A lot better.
You wouldn't touch Coinbase with a 21 foot pole, I guess.
Definitely not.
It's funny, all of my, editing software can never pick up my strong accent.
So a lot of the times when I say coin beast, the little caption is coin base.
Uh, yeah, it's a, it's a struggle.
So, so what does Coinbase do?
No, you know, This is the, this is the problem, isn't it?
Uh, I think it's, you're saying beast as in like a, like a grrr, a
There you go,
TLDR?
Coinbeast!
Alright, alright, yeah, yeah, my algorithm didn't detect your dialect there properly.
So what does CoinBeast do?
So we're a Bitcoin only educational company and we connect
new people to Bitcoin pros.
So if someone wants to set up a sophisticated mining operation, we connect
them with a video call with people like Adam O Denverbitcoin Um, if somebody wants
to take self custody of their Bitcoin, we connect them to a Bitcoin pro who's
going to help them custody their Bitcoin and get their Bitcoin off exchanges.
We do that and we also spread Bitcoin only educational, content
on Twitter and on YouTube.
So if someone comes and asks for, dad jokes and philosophy, uh,
rants, where do you send them?
We got it.
Cause we could, we should send them to you, Knut.
We need to hook you up as a, Bitcoin pro.
We should.
Yeah.
Uh, dad jokes as a service.
Knut thinks that other people also enjoy the things that he finds
funny and that's pretty good because
yeah, that's funny to me.
Yeah.
And that's why I'm here.
I'm here for the dad jokes.
perfect.
right.
I have a joke, uh, about, construction, but it isn't done yet.
I mean,
Oh, hey, there you go.
Uh, yeah.
You got me.
Well, well, so, so can you tell us a little bit more about, the,
the whole reaching out to more people thing, we're kind of in the
business of deepening conviction.
We've, we've been talking about this A little bit lately that the Freedom
Footprint show isn't exactly the best thing for a new person to come find
where we're a little on the toxic side.
I saw you.
You were avoiding swearing earlier as well.
Um, and...
Are these things that, that turn people off on YouTube or
that YouTube deprioritizes?
Like, does that actually stop us from growing even though we're
kind of finding our niche in the, uh, toxic Bitcoin maxi community?
I, I'm not a hundred percent sure.
I've seen some people, some big YouTubers claim that using the F
bomb multiple times, uh, it's going to affect your monetization, but it
shouldn't actually affect your virality.
this is like something, you see a lot of people repeat.
A lot of people say I'm shadow banned on YouTube.
I'm shadow banned on YouTube because they think that, you know,
the algorithm is squashing them.
And it's just the fact that it makes shit content.
Yeah, you're not very popular.
That's, that's the case.
You're not shadow.
You're not shadow band.
You're boring.
yeah, I was one of them.
I used to think my channel was shadowbanned when I started it, but
the fact was I just made shit titles, shit thumbnails, and I needed to, uh,
get, better with what I said, so I, but I think, think I prefer to play
it safe, uh, on some of my channels, on my personal channel, I let it fly,
um, and I've dropped many F bombs in a video and it does well, so I don't
think F bombs affects you unless you, uh, monetize in your YouTube channel.
Yeah, Me and Luke, we talk about this all the time.
What we're actually trying to achieve with this thing and what
we're trying to do and like.
I mean, for the most part, why we started it and that's still the core is just
that we want to have conversations with other Bitcoiners because we love having
conversations with other Bitcoiners.
It's our favorite thing to do in the world.
But also like, what kind of audience are we doing this
for and who are our listeners?
Like, it's, it's kind of hard to, to get a grasp of those things.
And, is like a computer game in a sense, there are different levers to
pull and there are different things to try, but I think at the core of.
Our idea of this is to get quality listeners rather than quantity listeners.
We like to align with the Bitcoin ethos and prioritize quality over quantity.
That's, that's like the main goal.
And that's mine as well.
my, my thinking surrounding it, is to get the quality listeners is you kind
of have to play the YouTube algorithm, the YouTube game, uh, to actually cast
your net out there to find the quality.
Cause I believe there are so many quality hardcore Bitcoiners around the
world who are simply not Bitcoiners yet.
And I think the number one touch point that many people are going to
touch to kind of discover what Bitcoin is, it's number go up technology.
and I think just to answer one of your earlier questions surrounding
toxicity and, you know, should we be toxic if we are trying to welcome new
people to Bitcoin or appeal to newer people who are outside of Bitcoin?
I actually roll with yes, I think it's actually a good thing to be toxic, be more
real, uh, don't worry about the, you know, the swear bombs, because I think people
They're so sick of this, nice corporate lie that they used to from the government.
They're looking for alternative viewpoints surrounding the world.
So I think if you're real and you're authentic, um, on YouTube, I think people
are going to relate to you a lot more.
that's how I go about it.
And that's kind of how I, tell my clients they should also go about it.
You know, don't worry about being very corporate and very nice
because people are sick of it.
this is so true that some wise man said, I don't remember who, but someone said,
honesty is the currency of the future.
that struck a chord with me because like, yes, Bitcoin is honesty.
That's exactly what it is.
But there's more to it.
that's one of the superpowers that Bitcoin gives you.
Not only in a philosophical sense or a meta sense, but once you know that You're
set for like, if you get over above a certain threshold and you know, your coins
are stored, stored properly, and they're uncensorable, then you know that you'll
have them forever and so on and so forth.
That allows you to be yourself to a much larger extent.
so honesty is the currency of the future.
There, there are so many layers to that.
And I think that's, the people watching, YouTube shows or listening
to pods, they, they appreciate honesty above everything else because like,
why would you listen to anything that markets itself as interesting
when it's not actually interesting, because if it's not honest, it's.
It's not interesting by default.
It can be interesting to see what others think about stuff, but still,
honesty is the only way forward.
And there's nothing easier in the world than dropping all of your
previous fiat masks that you were wearing and just be yourself and try
to be the best version of yourself.
Possible.
and if you fail, good for you.
You learned something.
that's what we strive for anyway, to, to try to do here.
Learning new things is, it's fun.
Once you allow yourself to, admit that I don't know anything about
this, but I'm going to give it a try.
And.
See where it goes.
That's the best thing ever.
I love that.
Honesty is the future.
I think that's very poetic.
And I think that's, you know, one of the reasons why Bitcoin is the fastest growing
technological invention in history.
It's one of the fastest growing faster than the internet was.
And that's because people are sick of this fiat world where they've been
lied to for the past hundred years.
society has been lied to about the educational system, the healthcare
system, the medical system, and, first and foremost, the monetary system.
People are sick Sick of all of it.
And you're slowly watching, you know, the beginning of what some people
call this, you know, great awakening.
I'm not, fully on board with, a lot of the things that those, that crowd says,
but they're onto something like the world is slowly gravitating towards truth.
And I love that.
What did you say?
Big, uh, the future is truth and Bitcoin is the truth.
Oh, well, honesty is the currency of the future.
And Bitcoin is honesty.
I think that's what I said.
there's so much there.
I mean, we've been lied to sort of implies that there's a liar.
And I, I think that most people are just confused.
Most people in these institutions, most politicians, of course, some of them are
deliberately lying about stuff, obviously, but most of them, most of the people on
the wrong side of the fence, so to speak, are just Ignorant about certain topics and
therefore they push the current narrative forward and they aren't able to, zoom
out of the era that in which they live.
And they think that these are modern times, these are how things are and
this is how things are going to work.
And they don't see themselves on this historical spectrum and don't realize
that every single generation in human history thought that this is now.
Because it was now, it's always now.
And that now is always changing.
It's not static at all.
It's dynamic.
So the interesting thing is where we're going and what direction we're going in.
And I think honesty is the best path forward, of course, and, and, uh,
that if people in government knew about praxeology, for instance,
they wouldn't be in government.
they would be in the private sector and more and more things would move away
from things that provably cannot work.
In the long term, fiat money is the obvious example, but
there are other things as well.
But, fiat money cannot work in the long run because it means more and
more money printing every year.
uh, GDP going up forever is corruption.
Like Greta Thunberg says, it's a fantasy.
It really is perpetual growth measured in GDP is a fantasy.
Perpetual growth in terms of human ingenuity and innovation, that's possible
at least until the sun becomes big and eats us up after 4 million years.
If we haven't found a way to get to another star, that's,
uh, that's not forever.
Few things are, But yeah, I don't really know where I'm going with
this, but I think there's a connection to honesty and something here.
I think the system itself turns people into liars rather than there being a
deliberate conspiracy going on anywhere.
Yeah, I used to be a lot more in the camp.
I was far more heavily in the camp of, there's a they.
It's the World Economic Forum and it's class.
They're the ones controlling the whole world.
That was kind of my view, you know, 2018, 2019.
And, kind of slowly gravitated a little bit and changed my opinion a little bit.
I still do think there are evil people in the world.
Like Klaus and, many of the people who go to some very interesting islands
around the world with Jeffrey, but I think there's just a large incentive system
where people have just been caught up in this fiat incentive system and, they
believe everything they've been told.
And I think it's just going to take time for them to come to the realization that.
No, truth is not what the church and the state is telling you, it is, and you know,
500 years ago when the printing press did separate church and the state, it took
a long time, like it took decades for the truth to finally get out there, and
I think it still might take a little bit of time, uh, in today's internet age, but
I think, you know, uh, with the internet democratizing information and bitcoin,
, democratizing and decentralizing money, I think it could happen very rapidly
that People do jump out of this fiat incentive system, that they've come to
live by and believe in their whole life.
So I'm pretty interested in how things could unfold in the coming years.
Yeah.
Not to say there's no evil people.
Of course, there are evil people.
And the thing is that the systems we've built up, they attract evil people.
if you're evil, and if you're willing to do whatever to get into
positions of power, you probably will end up in a position of power.
And that's how skewed, , how bad the systems are built up.
So it is the rich men north of Richmond, uh, that are maybe not causing the mess,
but making the mess worse every day,
Exactly.
Yeah, that's, that's how I see the world.
And, what a man, Oliver Anthony, he certainly captured the cultural
zeitgeist, with that song recently.
Yeah, yeah.
And some bitcoiners were, uh, Tur, for instance, was one of the first
ones on the ball there, and he really saw the genius of that song.
And I remember I saw it like a day after it was released.
A day after that, I sent him an email, invited him to this show, but, uh, we had
no chance at getting him on at that point.
Maybe, maybe, Oliver, if you hear this, we'd love to have
you on our show and talk music.
Because he got so viral.
So, so everyone tried to reach out to him, of course,
Yeah, I I think that song got tens of millions of views.
absolutely ridiculous, but it kind of shows, way of the times.
It shows you what society is feeling.
We see all of these viral TikTok videos recently where you have soccer moms
in Canada and America literally crying on camera saying they can't afford
things and slow You're having songs from Oliver Anthony start to actually
correctly diagnose the root problem.
It's fiat money.
It's these rich cabal of elites who can, you know, change the rules of
the monetary system whenever they want and print new monetary units.
That's the reason that cost of living is getting ridiculously high.
It's just, we don't quite have those people correctly
identifying the solution yet.
We have some people.
We have people like, Jordan Peterson warming up to Bitcoin and
slowly beginning to talk about it.
We also have other, viral people around the world, like Joe Roken, begin to
mention Bitcoin a little bit, uh, more.
So I think we're really on the tipping point of, society,
saying, okay, this is the problem.
There's something wrong with the money.
And I think we're not far away from people actually correctly
diagnosing the solution.
And it is Bitcoin.
It's so simple.
21 million.
exactly.
yeah, Joe Rogan.
I think he might have been the guy who said current honesty is the currency of
the future, or it's someone talking about Rogan because I think he captured that.
That's why he became so big because he was honest.
he had honest conversations and people wanted that.
There's also other people around the world, you know, uh, like
Russell Brand for example.
Another one who's just, I believe, is speaking the truth and just speaking
about things openly and he's getting attacked left, right, and center.
He's got millions of subscribers on YouTube.
I think though that there's a, and Russell Brand may or may not be an
example of this, but I think, People play different games and a lot of content
creators, they get addicted to their success because like, it's overwhelming.
If you manage to grow big in a short amount of time and, you get
all sorts of perks, people start to treat you differently and you get all
sorts of offers from here and there.
So, in a way this.
Race for likes and, and retweets and subscribers and stuff, it becomes a, uh,
an incentive structure that may not have honesty as its, uh, biggest driving force
in the, for a lot of these YouTubers, because they, they value their, the power
that comes with being recognized so high.
this is a thing.
That may or may not happen, but like, when Bitcoin, 10Xs, which
it does at some point, we 10X too, at least in all probability.
So all the Bitcoiners will be.
Ten times as more recognized and that comes with, upsides and
downsides, if you have a hundred thousand followers, like statistics
can tell you how big a percentage of those followers are psychopaths.
Like there's, there's upsides and downsides to that.
And I, I think as, as public Bitcoin is when we need to
be prepared for what a, uh.
A big Heinz Ketchup moment would do it to us and especially to
our psyches and to our egos and not let that get to our heads.
Bitcoin changes you more than you change, can change it as the saying goes.
And, uh, It's mostly a change for the better, but attention
changes you too, and that might not always be a change for the better.
do you have any thoughts around that?
I have many different thoughts.
Uh, the first one, obviously being like, you're seeing this on YouTube.
Like if I record a video tomorrow saying Bitcoin's going to a hundred
million dollars and here's why that's going to get, you know, 10, 000 views.
But if I do a video tomorrow saying, uh, this is why the
lightning network is a revolution.
It's probably going to get 500 views.
It's going to get 20 times less views.
And it is very difficult to try to balance the, the kind
of content that you are making.
Purely as a content creator with the fiat incentives that we do
have in front of us at the moment.
And it's very difficult to try to use a little bit of curiosity and clickbait in
our titles, but also deliver that Bitcoin message alongside the ridiculous clickbait
that's going to get all the views.
I think that's something that a lot of Bitcoin companies can
certainly take advantage of more.
But when you're kind of talking about the incentives and how it changes
you personally, I think you've kind of got two diametrically opposing.
Social media platforms battling it out right now.
You have X or Twitter and you have Nostr and, like you say, Knut,
I think the incentives have been very skewed on Twitter right now.
People, being able to monetize their accounts and, uh, for a laugh, I go and
listen to some of these, you know, large.
And all of these big guys of a million, followers, they're saying,
yeah, yeah, it's really easy.
You just need to comment in the replies of all of my, uh, Twitter posts.
And if you pay me money and you subscribe to me, I'm going to reply to you.
So you get lots of engagement and you reach your 5 million
impressions in three months.
And that's just incentivizing trash.
That's incentivizing people just becoming a reply guy, just replying trash in
the comments of their favorite person.
Whereas like on Nostr, provide value.
There's nobody who controls Nostr who can pay you out, uh, for trashy, trashy
comments and, uh, weak, uh, flaccid engagement that's not actually real.
You provide value.
If someone likes your shit, they're gonna zap you for it over the Lightning Network.
Yeah, we've had, some debates about Nostr, and we're not entirely convinced
that it won't run into the same problems as the old incentive structures.
Because, uh, attention is still valuable to content creators,
and people will crave attention.
that's why people want to be celebrities there's a difference
between wanting to be a celebrity and wanting to be recognized for sure.
Of course, you want your work to be appreciated by others, but some people
just want the attention for attention's sake, and that's a different game.
and there's, there are no real easy solutions to that, but when I hear that
about the Twitter space that's just talked about, it reminds me of the Wolf of Wall
Street and the last scene where, where, where, uh, sell me this pen and, and,
and this obvious asshole still gets, A ton of people to, a ton of people still
want to be like him because he scammed a lot of people and he was a total dick,
but they want to know how to be a total dick because he made a lot of money.
Uh, it's, yeah, but we, for our show, we talk about stuff like this a lot, me and
Danger here and we, we would never like.
Seriously interview a shit coiner and like, apologize for what they
do, or if we ever have a shit coiner on, it will be, ruthless.
so, so, the thing is, the price for, for everything else is your
integrity and your reputation is.
is always on the line.
And the way I see it, you can only sell your soul once.
If you take the bag of shit coins and run away, uh, like, and if you do
something dodgy, that dodgy move was probably costlier to you in a, in a
strict praxeological sense, uh, than, than the, the money you got for it.
So, you won't see me doing ads for some shampoo anytime
soon if I, even if I do 10 x.
Like, uh, I, I don't know what the correct analogy is, uh, here, but money has the
power to change people's incentives.
So, so I think honest money is a prerequisite for every, uh, everything
else in the honesty business.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
It's very difficult to say no to, you know, large paychecks
from these shitcoin companies.
Like I've been approached by a few of them and they've offered me pretty
significant amounts of money to grow their YouTube channel or grow their Twitter.
And, uh, I'm the same, I find myself in the same boat as you, Knut.
There's no amount of money, that, you know, is going to be put in
front of me that's going to help me.
Help a scammer or help me help a corrupt shit coiner.
because I just think it's like you say, it's going to kill your integrity so bad.
And I just don't believe morally the message they're putting out there.
but I'm interested, uh, give me the bear case on Nostr, not the bear case,
but maybe how the incentive system, uh, may not be, or we hope it may be.
full disclaimer, I don't know enough about Nostr yet , to have a really
informed opinion on this, but the way, the things I know about Nostr
is that there is no mention of Satoshis in the actual protocol.
so, and the word decentralization is being thrown around a lot.
and I always.
I always suspect things that throw around the word decentralization,
because to me, decentralization in Bitcoin is an unfortunate means to a
greater end, which is sound money, like censorship resistance, all of that stuff.
Decentralization, it would be way easier if it could be decentralized
and someone could be trusted, then we would only need one Excel sheet and not
this entire distributed ledger system.
So the only reason we need decentralization in Bitcoin , is
to, allow for all the other awesome stuff that it does.
I don't really see that in Nostr.
The Nostr is still going to be, uh, through relays and there will
be premium relays where you pay for a service and everything.
But that's sort of the same monetization, uh, structure that is.
going on in the other big things.
I don't, I don't really see this not taking the same
path as every other internet.
I know it's a protocol.
So, but, but if you look at SMTP, for instance, and email providers, they have
sort of centralized, most people use Gmail or, or whatever, Apple Mail or Microsoft.
I don't know if there's an Apple Mail, but, I, I have a hard time
seeing how Noster itself solves that.
Bitcoin may solve it somehow, but cryptography is not enough.
I know Giggy is a big Noster fan and he, but he is also the guy that said
Crisp crypto cryptography is not enough.
Your identity on Nostr is a cryptographic public key and a private key, right?
So, what if you fire up a million accounts, or a million key pairs,
and, uh, you, uh, you send a bunch of sats from 999, 999 of those
accounts to the millionth account.
Then most of the algorithms on the relays will, put your Nostr posts high up in
people's feed, uh, because there's no way of, verifying that the, the key
pairs are actually not the same person.
So, so you run into all these bot problems and everything that are already
in all the other social networks.
And I, I'm not saying I don't buy it completely because I'm still
eager to learn more about Nostr.
But I have a hard time seeing the why it's such a different thing.
you know, influencers will still influence.
They will still play the same game as they're playing now.
They'll just be playing it for sats.
If anything, that might even give them a bigger incentive to.
To post stuff that attracts a lot of views and attracts a lot of attention,
because that will lead directly to them, receiving a lot of sats.
it a solution or is it just amplifying the problem?
I'm, I have mixed feelings about this.
I, I, I don't know.
I haven't made up my mind yet.
You're going to send me down another rabbit hole after today's chat.
Uh, I really want to explore that more.
That's very interesting.
I, I do, if your posts get zapped more on Nostr, does that, is there some sort of
algo on Nostr where that post gets shown
that's, well, that's up to each and every, uh, uh, uh, relay, right?
It's called a relay, right?
I think it's more like the client can
Oh, client.
Yeah.
But
I mean, you, you can, you can put settings in your client to say, show more popular
stuff, I think, but it's not really good.
Uh, I've, I've not had any experience other than that you just show things
in descending order basically.
So, so if you flip not your keys, not your coins, that means.
uh, not your bitcoins, not your information.
You know what I mean?
The only information that is actually yours is still Bitcoin.
that's the only , string of information that you can actually own.
otherwise, it's still up to the, the, the Nostr clients and the relays and
stuff to, curate whatever comes from you and to other people's feeds.
You don't have any say in that.
So it doesn't really matter if you own your.
I think there ought to be a bigger debate about the pros and cons of Nostr because
it's, it's sort of like, oh, Jack Dorsey is on board and he put 50 million into it.
It must be good because he's a monk now, I'm yet to be convinced.
I'm not saying I'm against it or anything like that.
I'm, I'm.
Eager to learn more and eager to have people try to poke holes in
my, uh, you know, devil's advocate arguments that I've given to you now.
I think that's healthy.
We need devil's advocates, arguments.
I saw a really good podcast earlier in the week.
There's a little bit of a debate between, uh, uh, my buddy,
George Gammon and Jeff Booth.
And a lot of people were giving George
saw that.
Yeah.
I, I, I love a devil's advocate.
I think, I think it's good that people poke holes in all of our arguments.
I welcome it, but personally,
And yeah, I, I, um, I gave Jeff a call afterwards and I complimented him on that
episode because it's, uh, it's so good.
He's so good in debates.
Like, uh, he just.
Takes an attack and, uh, turns it into courtesy and, uh, a counter
argument on a silver plate.
And it's just beautiful.
he's one of a kind,
He's definitely one of a kind.
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fund today.
Well, I think, hey, I think, I think we're drifting towards maybe the, the end of
our time here, but Luke, any last words about your, your views on the near term?
What do you think we can expect in the next few months for Bitcoin?
Or anything else you want to talk about?
Anything else I want to talk about?
I, I think, uh, right now I would not have a clue what's going to happen, uh,
in Bitcoin, apart from the fact that we got a halving in around 210 days.
Uh, a lot of people are saying, you know, the halving's.
Priced in as they do every year.
I don't think the Harvey's priced in.
So I expect number go up.
Uh, I think like if we're looking really near term again, I, I really hate near
term price predictions, but over the past couple of weeks, it's really interesting,
the Dixie has been rallying really hard.
So the U S dollar comparatively is getting stronger than other fiat currencies.
Normally that decimates Bitcoin.
Normally, that's a risk off environment.
Normally, that's when bonds are bid.
People buy bonds, they sell stocks and other assets like Bitcoin, and they
buy gold bonds and the Dixie rallies.
Not this time.
It was really interesting in the past couple of weeks, Bitcoin's
actually kind of diverged from gold.
Bitcoin's been pumping, gold's been dumping as well as every
other asset class over the past.
3 4 weeks.
Uh, so there's a little bit of near term, uh, little bit of near term stuff, but,
you know, I prefer to zoom out, a lot.
I, I, I really do think Bitcoin, uh, is, uh, the, digital industrial revolution 2.
0.
Um, I think Bitcoin's that big.
The industrial revolution brought us these wave of five technological
revolutions every 50 years.
And I think Bitcoin is like Michael Saylor says, it's the
portal into the digital universe.
I really look at Bitcoin on a multi thousand year kind of time horizon.
I think Bitcoin.
Is going to create this wave of technological innovation that
we haven't seen in a long time.
Like we are living through this great stagnation that people like Peter Thiel
and Eric Weinstein correctly identify, but they just haven't quite popped their
finger on what's actually causing that.
And I think it is Bitcoin.
I think.
Bitcoin is going to do all of the things that led to the industrial revolution.
So what happened and what gave us this wave of 250 years of innovation, it was
increasing monetary velocity via central banking in the 1600s, whether that be a
good or a bad thing, that's what happened.
And that helped our economy thrive.
Uh, we saw, um, the wave of capitalism and, um, through the declaration
of independence and the French revolution in the 1770s, we saw all
of these property rights spring up.
I don't think it's a coincidence.
That we saw this wave of, you know, capitalism, democracy is a shit coin.
but we saw more property rights in the 1770s and that gave
us all of this innovation.
And we saw, uh, an enormous increase in the amount of energy we used in the 1600s
when we found coal as an energy source.
I think all of those key ingredients led to 250 years of
prosperity that we have seen.
And I think Bitcoin is going to do that for the digital age.
It increases the amount of energy we use and it captures wasted energy.
Gives property rights to every single person around the world, irrespective
of where they are or whether they are unbanked, like the 2 billion ish people
who are unbanked around the world.
and Bitcoin increases monetary velocity.
Um, so I, again, always like to zoom out.
Um, I look at Bitcoin on that kind of.
how does it increase monitor velocity?
Well, right now, we have all of this friction, uh, swapping fiat currency
to fiat currency, and we also have,
But, but it's.
devil's advocate argument for that, because it's deflationary.
and until, uh, until everything divided by 21 million, nothing
is priced in correctly.
and when that happens, when people realize that I'm not selling this.
ever.
Like, because it's so fucking good.
Like, at least more and more people will trend towards that,
then I, Oh, this is awesome.
I want to spend it all.
Like, it doesn't matter.
Uh, people will spend money, use money less and less.
That's, that's the, the argument I was trying to make before.
If I, if I try to come up with an example, it would be if 10 really,
really rich friends decide to have dinner every night, each night,
one of them will pick up the bill.
So 10 transactions are made in total.
if they're nice and wealthy, like all Bitcoiners will be in the future.
So, and, if 10 poor people decide to eat together every night, each one of them
will buy their own pack of noodles because they can't afford to pick up the bill.
So, a hundred transactions happen.
This might be a bad analogy or whatever, but, but still.
I do suspect that fewer transactions will happen over time
in a deflationary environment.
So the velocity of money is sort of, in my mind, that's sort of a
Keynesian metric to begin with, and not something to necessarily strive for.
Micro transactions is a very fiat y thing in my mind.
Like when you have to pay to go to the bathroom in the central station somewhere,
uh, and you have to have a coin to...
To get your cards for the supermarket or whatever, those are all very
fiat inventions, in my mind.
And, I see a Bitcoin standard where you pay for something maybe once a year, and
then there's some sort of subscription model, because that's way, way easier
for both the customer and the provider or whatever good a service it is.
So I see, velocity of money going down and not up.
And now there's a, there's another thought nugget for you.
I love Thought Nuggets, I, I think I agree with you in a hundred years,
I think in a hundred years, there'll be less transactions, I think getting
there, I'm not sure how that's going to unfold, I think I agree though, monetary
velocity is potentially not the best way to frame it, maybe I should say global
interconnectedness, a little bit less catchy, but, uh, like I think central
love it.
Love it.
Yeah, like, I think central banking gave the ability for more trade.
Uh, you can, it's simply, it's a lot easier to send paper receipts to Europe
than it is to ship a boatload of gold.
And I think Bitcoin does that for the 1.
7 billion people who are unbanked around the world.
All of a sudden they can send value to someone on the other side of
the world, irrespective of them being in Venezuela or Africa.
Yeah.
Uh, I'm just trying to make the argument that just, it's great that it's easier.
The Lightning Network is fantastic.
Like it's, it's absolutely awesome to be able to, to accept Lightning
and to pay with Lightning wherever I'm at the Bitcoin conference.
I love it.
having said that though, I suspect that making something easy, it's not.
necessarily going to increase its usage.
I mean, it's probably easier to manufacture a horse cart these days than
in the 19th century, but still, there's Less demand for them, also bad analogy,
but I think as we move into the future, we will see, we'll see people figure
out other ways of interacting with one another's value systems, like, Bitcoin
will be used, but not necessarily nondeclassification of Bitcoin.
We can see people just, trading with their reputational capital, I mean, value for
value is not only SATs, it's, services.
in general, like the way I see it, we're, engaged in a trade.
Right now we're exchanging information, one with one another.
you are giving me your life.
I'm giving you my life right now.
This is this moment.
It's not coming back.
I'm giving it away to you.
And you're gracious enough to give away piece of your life to me right now.
And I'm wandering away here, I think.
But I'd like to plant these little, these little seeds of something
that will lead to that which you can do without your own mind.
Thank you.
That's the big insight at the, uh, the, the Sherry on top of
this, that if you don't have the craving, you don't need the thing.
You can be happy with just your Bitcoin stack and a toothbrush, which,
which your wall there behind you alludes to that you're already doing.
You're already living like that.
Look at it.
There's nothing behind me.
There's holes in the wall.
I'm stacking, baby.
Wonderful.
And maybe that is the perfect note to end things on.
So I'll, I'll, I'll repeat the question, but, and, uh, Knut
can not interrupt this time.
Uh, any final thoughts, Luke?
I don't think I have any.
I think we've covered so much today.
My final thought would be, thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.
And if there's anyone out there, considering, you know, they're
listening to this and they've made it this far Bitcoiner.
Reach out and just talk to more Bitcoiners.
I think, I was initially very scared to talk to Bitcoiners, uh, when I was a lot
earlier in my Bitcoin rabbit hole journey.
They scared me.
They were toxic on Twitter back in 2019, but it was some of the
best, uh, things I could have done.
So if you knew, if you're learning about Bitcoin, reach
out, talk to more Bitcoiners, uh, spread the Bitcoin message.
and thank you so much for having me, gentlemen.
Wonderful.
And where can everyone find you, by the way?
So I will be shitposting on Twitter, I, um, am making videos on the Money Matters
YouTube channel, a couple of videos a week, yeah, if you want to tell me they're
shit, or if you want to tell me you don't like, uh, me for any reason, send
me your hate mail, I am open to it, I, you'll find me on Twitter, I'm everywhere.
Well, look, we appreciate what you and what you do a lot.
And I, I love this conversation and I'd like to continue preferably
in real life sometimes or away from keyboard, as we say.
yeah, thank you very much for coming on our show and, uh, good luck with
everything you do and just reach out if there's anything you want.
thank you.
I really appreciate that.
Uh, that means a lot, uh, coming from yourself, Knut.
I've read two of your books, not, not four.
I think you have four now.
I've read, uh, Infinity Divided by 21 Million and, uh,
Sovereignty Through Mathematics.
That's the other one I've read.
So it means a lot coming from yourself.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
And, uh, yeah, hope you enjoy the, the other two books.
I'll get there.
Praxeology is the next one on my list.
Yeah.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, afterwards.
So make sure to send a DM or something.
Anyway, thanks a lot
Thanks a lot, Luke.
thanks, Danja.
Take care.
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