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Welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show, brought to you by  BitBox Stampseed,

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the Bitcoin Advisor and ShopInBit.

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Go to  BitcoinInfinity.com for books, merch and more.

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Enjoy the conversation.

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Obi, welcome for the first time to the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

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uh, well,

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We rebranded.

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what is time in infinity?

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Yeah,

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No, no, it's the second time, great to have you back.

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And you've had a big launch recently.

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yeah, we have, it's been, it's been a wild ride and the journey is just beginning.

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So yeah, thank you.

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right.

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So, so Fedimin launched, uh, two weeks ago.

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Is it the Fedi

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Fedi, launched?

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launched?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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These terms.

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no, no, Fedi Mint launched, effectively Fedi Mint launched nearly five years ago.

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FediMint is a very old technology, very, you know, the first, the first

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FediMint transaction, um, where someone used FediMint e cash over Lightning to

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buy a cup of coffee, which was after, you know, a year plus of development

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was on, uh, I believe it was the 3rd of the 8th, 3rd of August, 2021.

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And so we're trying to, like you have a Bitcoin Infinity Day, we're

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suggesting, that was actually Erik, my, the inventor of Fedi Mint.

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Um, from Parinelli Police, just actually, and um, so I like to think

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of that as uh, e cash coffee day.

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Cause actually it was like, you actually bought the cup of coffee with e cash.

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Um, so yeah, but yeah, Fedi finally launched two weeks ago.

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All right.

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So, so I think, um, for those who haven't seen the previous episode with you, if

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they want to know more about you, we should probably go back to that episode,

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but I think you're going to have to do the TLDR on what Fedi is for our listeners.

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Like that's a good start, I think.

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So yeah, and now we can be clear about what Fedi is.

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And so Fedi, um, is two things still.

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Even Fedi is two things.

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One is the company called Fedi and the other is this product called Fedi.

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So if we talk about the product that people have on their phone,

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Fedi is a community super app.

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And so it's an app that takes the best of freedom technology.

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So it's got Bitcoin functionality in it, Lightning connectivity, obviously

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FediMint for handling community custody.

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Um, but it's also got Nostr support and any other freedom technology that's

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out there that's mature and reliable.

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We've taken the time to integrate into one simple to use app.

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So it's, it allows you to have chat.

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We use Matrix as this federated, um, decentralized,

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uh, encrypted chat protocol.

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It has money with the combination of Lightning, Bitcoin, and Fediment and more.

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So it has a built in web browser inside it.

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And therefore you can access all of the Bitcoin ecosystem of

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apps from Bitrefill to Unleash.

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chat to BTCmaps and beyond.

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All in one place.

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So you don't have to have this smorgasbord of, of a cornucopia of different apps and

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tabs open one app to, to use them all.

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And the app itself, we announced as well, is now source available and will

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eventually be open source as well.

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So we're trying to make the best of it.

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portal into the freedom technology space.

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So that's Fedi.

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And then Fedi the company builds the Fedi app.

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And we also have something we call the FedEye Order, which is, um,

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this selection of incredible people, FedEye Knights, who are on the ground

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and they, you can think of them as like a Decentralized genius bar.

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If you've got an iPhone, you have the genius bar that goes along with the phone.

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The reason why the iPhone is so amazing is not just the phone, but it's also

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the incredible support you can get.

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If you can go to an Apple store and you go to the genius bar, they can help you.

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We have that, but we have that instead of it being in, you know, Fifth Avenue

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or Oxford street in London or so on.

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It's in, um, the capital of Togo or Uganda or.

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Or, um, Guatemala, or so on.

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On the ground, they will locate communities, they

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will educate communities.

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And they on, and they will support communities on Bitcoin, on Lightning,

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on FediMent, on all of these different websites and services that are out there

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to provide that sort of support that's needed for the communities that are

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outside of the existing Bitcoin space.

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Okay, great.

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So, so how does a federation work?

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Like, well, we need to go into that too.

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so the first thing you have to do, wherever you custody is

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where you transact and do and you live and so on, which is why.

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Banks try very much when you're young to get you to hold a bank account

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with them because they know that most people never leave and then

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all other services are provided.

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So how do you actually custody?

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For many people they've had two choices.

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Either they do everything themselves and that's the best if you can do it just like

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it's the best to be able to build and fix your own car or house but not everybody

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can do that but that is always the best because no one's going to love you.

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And put as much care in as yourself.

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The other extreme is to fully outsource it, fully give it to some private

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party, which is actually what ends up 95 percent plus people doing, and

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that's putting their money on a Coinbase or some other centralized service.

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Um, and the same with communication.

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They would use some sort of centralized service.

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They would use a WhatsApp, an X.

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com, a Telegram, a WeChat or so on.

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They would use some centralized chat.

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And if you think about it.

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Our lives are communication and money and value.

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So both those things, most people outsource, some people take it in house.

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If I want to set up a federation, which is to do with the custody of the money,

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where FedeMint is this middle, middle house, I can find within my community,

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um, a number of trusted parties.

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We call them guardians.

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So let's say.

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You found us three plus, you know, your great t shirt, Greg Voss.

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The minimum we suggest is four for various Esoteric reasons From a cryptographic

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security point of view we suggest four, but you can have seven You can have you

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can keep growing you could have we've seen people have seen Federation stood

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up with as many as 40 people in them And it will get slower and slower if it gets

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beyond that, but, but technically you can.

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It'll be this, it'll create this huge multisig, i.

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e.

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multiple people have to sign before you do a transaction on chain.

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And so multisig starts to get expensive of a certain size.

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But let's say us three plus Greg.

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We would FedeMint software.

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Um, we would download the 30 minute software onto a machine that we have

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spare, um, and we would set up and run it.

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The setup process will, part of it will enter the information

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about the other three.

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And we make that very simple, it's a web interface, you point and click and

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you get a code and you share that code with the other, the other parties, they,

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everybody shares the code of each other.

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Maybe you go into a group chat and paste each other's code.

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Everybody copies each other's, um, enters it into our own FediMint

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and then they connect to each other and they form a federation.

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And from then on.

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As long as you keep that box, um, running, connected to the internet, and connected

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to electricity, the federation, for each, all the four, the federation are one.

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But because it's a federation, if one of them, for example, had a

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power cut, or lost their internet, or had to change their domain name, or

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something like that, The other three will be able to continue and operate.

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Yep, so you've now created this community custody platform.

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Now, anyone with the FEDI app or any other app that supports the FEDIMINT

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protocol, Mutiny, although unfortunately Mutiny is looking to shut down, but

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there's also Webimint, and we're hoping that many others will set up

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FEDIMINT wallets, um, like there are multiple Lightning wallets in future.

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Any FDI min wallet compatible wallets like Fedie, um, can connect to your

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federation when you finish connecting.

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At the end of setting up it will, the app will, the fed min server will show

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a QR code and the string that represents how to connect to your Feder Federation.

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So you could take your Fed app, uh, your Fed app, or, or the Mutiny

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wallet, or Web Mint, or any other, um, fed mint compatible wallet,

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and you'll scan that QR code.

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And you've now connected to that federation and that federation

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becomes, you can now use it to custody.

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Yeah.

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Now, what will happen is, um, if for example, someone wants to send

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money to you, you would, um, just, just as if you're using a Bitcoin

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wallet, let's say it's on chain.

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Um, you would, you would say, I want to receive, um, enter the

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amount and it'll show a QR code.

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Someone else who's using a normal Bitcoin wallet will scan that code and send over

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the Bitcoin main chain money to you.

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But what's actually happening is you are communicating, your Fediap is

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communicating with the Federation.

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Your Federation is creating a Bitcoin address for you to send to and sends

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it back to you for you to display.

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Okay.

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And then a user, someone else who's using a completely different wallet

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will send money to that address.

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Actually goes to the federation and they, the four of us combined will process

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that and create e cash, which is like a token representation of the Bitcoin.

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Um, I think of like in the same way, Tebra is a token representation of Bitcoin.

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of, of fiat, but this is for Bitcoin.

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And then the e cash will be sent to you.

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But the way it, the way it's sent is completely privacy preserving.

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So the, the guardians have no way of knowing who they are providing that

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service for, who's receiving the money.

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And, um, they don't, and at some point when you, um, spend it or someone else

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spends it, They don't know that they, they issued you it when it was issued.

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There's full privacy.

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All right, and neither does the sender, I assume, like the sender

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doesn't, well the sender knows,

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that they sent Bitcoin to us and address.

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They have no idea who, so if, so if there are, uh, let's say we set this

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up and we're using it for our families and friends and families and extended

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family families, and in total, there are 40 of us or 50 of us when you take

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families and friends and uncles and so on.

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Um, When you send to that address, there's no way to know

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out of those 40 or 50 people who received it or who requested it.

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All right, so, uh, a bit about like, like, the guardians and the multisig,

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that's obviously because you don't want to have a single point of attack

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for each, uh, federation, right?

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point of failure,

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A single point of

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the more likely thing is that someone's machine, if you had one machine, the most

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likely thing that will happen, almost guaranteed, at some point you'll have

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some sort of power cut or internet cut.

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Internet cut is probably the most likely you'll, you'll have a glitch

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on your internet for 30 minutes.

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If you do, you'll Everyone using your federation won't be able to

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use your system for 30 minutes.

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but it's also an attack vector.

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Like if the, if the, uh, if there's a lot of money in the federation

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and, uh, so there's, there's an incentive to attack the guardians.

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Like, uh, uh, can you be completely sure that the guardians don't know each

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other's identities and stuff like that?

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Like how, I know you think a lot about the attack vector.

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So I'm like, can you go into that a bit?

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can't be completely sure of anything in life.

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So the answer to that is automatically no.

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Can you be completely sure of something?

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Um, but, um, and it depends on the Also, there's an assumption that you have,

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that the people don't know each other.

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Cause I think very often in, there's two types of scenarios.

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It could be that each party completely doesn't know each other, or the more

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common scenario will be that you're some community or some group of friends.

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And within you, you've decided.

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Of the people who are my friends and family and so on, these four people are

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the ones who are consistently the most reliable, the most trusted and so on.

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They do know each other, but, and you all, and you know who they are, but, and

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it's because you know who they are that you're comfortable with them holding.

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It's, they're the Uncle Jims of the family.

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It's like, so they're known and they're known to be reliable.

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They're known to be people who care about their friends and family.

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And that's very often actually what we're seeing is the more common

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scenario than the ones where people are completely, um, anonymous to each other.

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But as it matures, we may see the other scenario happen as well.

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It's a literal uncle network.

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I know Uncle Rockstar started the uncle network here on infinity day.

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Like he should start a federation and make the uncle network an actual uncle network.

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Yeah, you got three, you got the brother Luke, and so that's four, so we're

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are you, are you an uncle?

235
00:13:48,977 --> 00:13:50,237
am an uncle officially now.

236
00:13:50,297 --> 00:13:51,557
an uncle as well, so,

237
00:13:51,817 --> 00:13:55,677
are like, but dubbed by Uncle Rockstar or just an uncle.

238
00:13:55,867 --> 00:13:58,627
I mean, like, well, I haven't been dubbed I, so

239
00:13:58,887 --> 00:14:00,257
you are a good candidate.

240
00:14:00,347 --> 00:14:03,447
I should suggest that to a grand uncle Rockstar.

241
00:14:03,517 --> 00:14:07,987
candidate, but I, I am a, I am biologically now, uh, an

242
00:14:08,262 --> 00:14:09,552
oh, congratulations,

243
00:14:10,807 --> 00:14:11,287
Yeah,

244
00:14:12,002 --> 00:14:15,602
Okay, well, so I think, I think we are looking just to dig in more

245
00:14:15,612 --> 00:14:20,672
about Fedi Fedi Mint and, uh, well, I think, I think, so what, what

246
00:14:20,682 --> 00:14:22,292
does your launch actually mean?

247
00:14:22,302 --> 00:14:25,842
Because the app has been in beta for, for quite a while, right?

248
00:14:25,842 --> 00:14:29,562
But what, what's happened, uh, to make it that you can launch?

249
00:14:29,942 --> 00:14:37,202
Yeah, that's a very good question, because, um, we, the app from the, if you

250
00:14:37,202 --> 00:14:42,642
just focus on the app, from the previous version to the one we went live, there

251
00:14:42,642 --> 00:14:45,602
are, there are only a few, um, changes.

252
00:14:46,072 --> 00:14:48,422
Uh, I can go for what they are, but it didn't really matter.

253
00:14:48,492 --> 00:14:54,392
It was more about, um, did we have enough feedback from enough people on the

254
00:14:54,392 --> 00:14:59,312
ground that we thought that the product was stable enough, reliable enough?

255
00:14:59,792 --> 00:15:06,842
Um, behind the scenes, we've done a lot of internal Um, plus from

256
00:15:06,842 --> 00:15:11,752
trusted friends, external security audits of different elements as well.

257
00:15:12,322 --> 00:15:15,202
I don't like to publicize it because it's just something we do.

258
00:15:15,212 --> 00:15:18,082
We don't think it's something you should promote to saying,

259
00:15:18,082 --> 00:15:19,142
Hey, look at what we're doing.

260
00:15:19,142 --> 00:15:21,792
We just try to build the best that we can.

261
00:15:22,257 --> 00:15:26,547
Um, and the really, um, big thing was to just say, a lot

262
00:15:26,547 --> 00:15:28,047
of people ask, is Fedi ready?

263
00:15:28,537 --> 00:15:31,647
And we wanted to get to a line where we thought it was good enough.

264
00:15:31,647 --> 00:15:32,657
And we got to that line.

265
00:15:33,087 --> 00:15:38,787
And then, um, we also wanted to have enough proof points in, in, um, the world.

266
00:15:39,137 --> 00:15:40,407
And again, we got to that line.

267
00:15:40,407 --> 00:15:42,817
So these things were separate things that were happening.

268
00:15:43,527 --> 00:15:49,147
And finally, um, we, um, it was very clear to us that we wanted to make

269
00:15:49,157 --> 00:15:51,827
the software, Ultimately open source.

270
00:15:52,017 --> 00:15:55,627
And that was a big call because, you know, we rested, well, 21

271
00:15:55,627 --> 00:16:02,627
million, we raised 21 million and, um, normally you go two routes.

272
00:16:02,627 --> 00:16:06,947
You go, you raise a little bit and you stay open source and so on.

273
00:16:07,357 --> 00:16:09,747
Or you raise a lot and you stay closed source.

274
00:16:10,077 --> 00:16:15,537
We believe that, um, over time, it's going to be considered, um,

275
00:16:15,547 --> 00:16:19,007
over the coming years, it's going to consider that you should always

276
00:16:19,037 --> 00:16:22,937
go open source no matter what you're doing, but we're in a transition.

277
00:16:22,967 --> 00:16:25,777
Five years ago, raising this much and going open source would be

278
00:16:25,777 --> 00:16:29,507
considered crazy, in five years time, raising this much and not being open

279
00:16:29,507 --> 00:16:30,727
source would be considered crazy.

280
00:16:31,067 --> 00:16:33,727
And we wanted to be, um, uh, afforded in that.

281
00:16:33,737 --> 00:16:34,367
So.

282
00:16:34,767 --> 00:16:37,187
We actually went source available.

283
00:16:37,457 --> 00:16:38,737
It's called a business source license.

284
00:16:38,737 --> 00:16:41,657
So it means you go source available and you set a date where you

285
00:16:41,667 --> 00:16:44,337
must go open source or earlier.

286
00:16:44,627 --> 00:16:45,937
And we've, and we set those, those.

287
00:16:45,937 --> 00:16:47,827
So we cannot, we cannot change it now.

288
00:16:47,827 --> 00:16:50,637
We cannot say we're going to actually change our mind.

289
00:16:50,897 --> 00:16:54,602
Well, the only thing we can say is that we're going to go open source earlier.

290
00:16:55,032 --> 00:16:56,112
Um, that's the only thing we could do.

291
00:16:56,142 --> 00:16:59,022
Or if we decide to shut down, it's automatically open source as well.

292
00:16:59,292 --> 00:17:00,762
That's the sort of dead man's switch as well.

293
00:17:00,772 --> 00:17:03,102
Or we decide we're no longer going to develop this point

294
00:17:03,282 --> 00:17:05,002
this morning, um, the software.

295
00:17:05,432 --> 00:17:08,842
Um, we've added, so we've added caveats like that, which are not optional, but

296
00:17:08,862 --> 00:17:12,322
actually add more, um, more restrictions.

297
00:17:12,322 --> 00:17:14,362
So no one's going to complain with us going open source earlier.

298
00:17:15,717 --> 00:17:19,897
Um, so that was, that happened though, um, and was agreed and

299
00:17:19,927 --> 00:17:21,097
put in place on May the 4th.

300
00:17:21,107 --> 00:17:25,877
So May the 4th we review of this year, 2024, just for posterity.

301
00:17:26,417 --> 00:17:34,807
Um, we, um, got enough proof points from different markets, um, that we

302
00:17:34,807 --> 00:17:36,557
felt that we're onto something here.

303
00:17:36,997 --> 00:17:38,307
Does that mean that we've finished?

304
00:17:38,307 --> 00:17:41,887
No, there's a lot of work to do, but enough to say that the idea

305
00:17:41,887 --> 00:17:45,437
of taking all of the best of freedom technologies out there.

306
00:17:45,987 --> 00:17:50,397
And putting them into one place and one app that's easy to use is

307
00:17:50,407 --> 00:17:52,347
something that's compelling to people.

308
00:17:52,697 --> 00:17:57,157
And also we had enough to see the federation model.

309
00:17:57,507 --> 00:18:01,837
of this sort of really simple to use and privacy preserving multi

310
00:18:01,837 --> 00:18:04,177
sig is also a powerful model.

311
00:18:04,447 --> 00:18:06,287
So the model was proven out.

312
00:18:06,637 --> 00:18:12,657
And then finally the software, we got to a point where we thought, it's, of course,

313
00:18:12,927 --> 00:18:17,677
we've got years of more development, but it was good enough as well.

314
00:18:17,687 --> 00:18:19,107
I think that was the final piece.

315
00:18:20,652 --> 00:18:23,152
And we thought, okay, we're ready to go.

316
00:18:23,562 --> 00:18:29,432
And we then set a date a week, a few weeks after that.

317
00:18:29,892 --> 00:18:34,182
But even when we were getting close to it, we started the process of shooting

318
00:18:34,182 --> 00:18:38,057
a video because we just wanted to show You know, people are wondering what were

319
00:18:38,057 --> 00:18:41,967
we doing for the last nearly two years and we wanted to show that as well.

320
00:18:43,622 --> 00:18:45,962
Well, what's the synopsis of the last two years?

321
00:18:46,122 --> 00:18:47,362
Like the big highlights?

322
00:18:47,977 --> 00:18:52,737
Um, so, uh, I always say there's three phases in the business.

323
00:18:52,797 --> 00:18:57,797
There's initialization, um, of a startup, initialization, market

324
00:18:57,837 --> 00:19:01,247
product fit, in our case, not product market fit, I can go into why.

325
00:19:01,747 --> 00:19:03,457
And then, um, growth.

326
00:19:03,987 --> 00:19:09,927
And so, this phase that was, the end was finally, we crossed the

327
00:19:09,927 --> 00:19:15,577
line, um, on August the 6th, 2024, was the initialization phase.

328
00:19:16,087 --> 00:19:20,147
And so, if you think about the analogy of, like you, I don't know, you wanted to have

329
00:19:20,147 --> 00:19:27,002
a A shop selling designer pet clothing, and you've, you've, you've decided you

330
00:19:27,002 --> 00:19:32,552
have this crazy idea and you have to first fund it, find the people to build

331
00:19:32,552 --> 00:19:40,132
it, and then find the place, set up the store, make the clothes and, and, or open.

332
00:19:40,662 --> 00:19:42,082
That's the initialization phase.

333
00:19:42,132 --> 00:19:44,022
And then once it's launched, you then.

334
00:19:44,787 --> 00:19:49,757
Start figuring out, okay, people come in, there's initial, um, interest, and then,

335
00:19:49,767 --> 00:19:53,757
you know, you have this trickle of people coming in, you have to figure out how, um,

336
00:19:53,757 --> 00:19:56,707
what do they like, what do they not like, what do I have to adjust until it becomes

337
00:19:56,707 --> 00:19:58,947
this sort of regular viable business.

338
00:19:59,247 --> 00:20:00,767
That's the market product fit phase.

339
00:20:00,847 --> 00:20:04,587
And then you start saying, okay, I've got something that's working fully and,

340
00:20:04,957 --> 00:20:10,627
and, and then I will repeat it, make more and more and more, um, I don't know.

341
00:20:11,342 --> 00:20:11,922
Widgets?

342
00:20:12,462 --> 00:20:15,532
Doggy fashion, Excel stores, whatever you want to call it.

343
00:20:15,902 --> 00:20:19,942
So, so the, so the last two years was our initialization phase.

344
00:20:20,202 --> 00:20:24,682
So we had this, amazing product with FediMint.

345
00:20:24,922 --> 00:20:31,792
Um, we had this initial set of, Of, uh, crazy people with Erik, the, the

346
00:20:31,792 --> 00:20:38,292
inventor of FedEvent, um, Justin, who's, who was also incredible engineer, uh,

347
00:20:38,302 --> 00:20:41,542
who was actually the one who suggested that we make a commercial enterprise.

348
00:20:41,542 --> 00:20:44,402
Cause up until that, both myself and Erik just suggested it

349
00:20:44,402 --> 00:20:45,592
would be an open source project.

350
00:20:46,132 --> 00:20:52,422
And then myself as well with my just, uh, you know, only maybe six or seven months

351
00:20:52,422 --> 00:20:53,952
before we were finally finished selling.

352
00:20:54,372 --> 00:20:57,992
Um, a Bitcoin exchange, the UK's longest running Bitcoin exchange.

353
00:20:58,402 --> 00:21:03,712
Um, and so having that experience of building a company that was profitable

354
00:21:04,152 --> 00:21:07,472
and understanding what it meant to build something that custodies a

355
00:21:07,472 --> 00:21:11,822
large amount of money for people and provides them services and so on is

356
00:21:11,822 --> 00:21:13,252
easy to use and all that sort of stuff.

357
00:21:13,722 --> 00:21:16,942
Um, and everything around that customer service, everything around that.

358
00:21:17,992 --> 00:21:23,612
So, we were there, um, I had a visit to the Oslo Freedom Forum,

359
00:21:24,002 --> 00:21:25,252
and that was the catalyst.

360
00:21:25,252 --> 00:21:31,512
We, we did one talk at, uh, um, Bitcoin Miami, um, and, uh, Alex

361
00:21:31,512 --> 00:21:34,342
Gladstein saw that, he suggested I go to Oslo Freedom Forum.

362
00:21:34,942 --> 00:21:42,522
I went, um, my mind was blown and I also realized not only that, that, um, whenever

363
00:21:42,522 --> 00:21:45,512
you're thinking about a business, you have to always think about chicken and

364
00:21:45,512 --> 00:21:50,872
the egg and how do you find your initial market for eventually this product is

365
00:21:50,882 --> 00:21:54,712
applicable to everybody everywhere, but who's the first use case that has a,

366
00:21:54,752 --> 00:21:58,692
who has a demand so high that they're going to willing to go through the really

367
00:21:58,692 --> 00:22:01,792
buggy early versions and, and help you.

368
00:22:02,192 --> 00:22:05,012
Stabilize it to the point where it's something that people can click

369
00:22:05,012 --> 00:22:06,352
a button and it works everywhere.

370
00:22:06,772 --> 00:22:11,952
Um, and I realized that the community of human rights defenders and, and

371
00:22:11,962 --> 00:22:17,322
later on also humanitarian organizations fit that, that, um, they had a need.

372
00:22:17,652 --> 00:22:21,452
We really cared about that need and we were concerned, we wanted to help,

373
00:22:21,652 --> 00:22:25,922
but we realized that this product could help in combination with

374
00:22:25,932 --> 00:22:27,292
the rest of the Bitcoin ecosystem.

375
00:22:27,292 --> 00:22:28,212
That's what's quite cool.

376
00:22:28,232 --> 00:22:32,352
FediMint is the thing that handles the custody, but you still need to buy

377
00:22:32,442 --> 00:22:38,712
things, sell things, find things, and so on, and that's where the Fedi app also

378
00:22:39,182 --> 00:22:43,662
comes into play, but without FediMint as the core to handle the custody,

379
00:22:44,102 --> 00:22:46,522
the rest, the rest didn't make sense.

380
00:22:46,532 --> 00:22:48,022
So that's, that's, there was a start.

381
00:22:48,607 --> 00:22:52,267
Then we started, it was, then you had this sort of scene from like the

382
00:22:52,267 --> 00:22:56,877
Magnificent Seven or so on where you're, you're finding your initial team members.

383
00:22:56,887 --> 00:23:00,897
So we found Renato Rodriguez, I chased her for like six months ago.

384
00:23:00,907 --> 00:23:03,217
She should have, you know, got a restraining order for six

385
00:23:03,217 --> 00:23:05,757
months trying to get her to join.

386
00:23:05,767 --> 00:23:10,217
Um, just if you look at the initial team, it was just everybody,

387
00:23:10,547 --> 00:23:11,947
the whole team is amazing.

388
00:23:12,392 --> 00:23:15,072
But it was just trying to find these incredible people.

389
00:23:15,512 --> 00:23:20,522
Um, they tended to just immediately understand the value proposition and

390
00:23:20,522 --> 00:23:25,412
the market we were trying to help and were already doing incredibly

391
00:23:25,412 --> 00:23:29,362
well in their own careers, but there was something missing for them.

392
00:23:29,592 --> 00:23:34,327
And when they saw this, it was like this fulfilled There's some other need

393
00:23:34,337 --> 00:23:36,227
that they had beyond the monetary need.

394
00:23:36,237 --> 00:23:41,797
The potential was amazing, but the mission side of it was what helped

395
00:23:41,797 --> 00:23:43,677
us bring on this incredible team.

396
00:23:43,967 --> 00:23:47,077
So I believe in philosophy, people, process, product.

397
00:23:47,407 --> 00:23:50,477
The philosophy was amazing, who we're helping, the potential,

398
00:23:50,757 --> 00:23:53,927
it's helping people and in so doing we're helping Bitcoin, in

399
00:23:53,927 --> 00:23:55,157
so doing we're helping the world.

400
00:23:55,647 --> 00:23:59,547
And that's a powerful philosophy and mission and that attracted

401
00:23:59,547 --> 00:24:00,947
this incredible group of people.

402
00:24:01,347 --> 00:24:03,747
And if you've got the philosophy and you've got an incredible group of

403
00:24:03,757 --> 00:24:08,797
people, they will put in the processes that will lead to the right product.

404
00:24:09,227 --> 00:24:14,737
And so I, I like to take credit, but the reality is, is I don't do that

405
00:24:14,737 --> 00:24:16,737
much on a day to day on the ground.

406
00:24:16,817 --> 00:24:19,137
It's like, let's say the video, for example.

407
00:24:19,927 --> 00:24:23,227
Um, uh, it was quite crazy.

408
00:24:23,227 --> 00:24:30,547
I said to Renata, I want a really powerful launch video and it should be like the

409
00:24:30,557 --> 00:24:35,187
best Apple keynote speech combined with a UNICEF or Save the Children commercial.

410
00:24:35,817 --> 00:24:36,267
That's it.

411
00:24:36,327 --> 00:24:39,077
That's the whole brief and that whole video.

412
00:24:39,237 --> 00:24:40,697
And somebody says, you need to go to Madeira.

413
00:24:40,697 --> 00:24:41,527
You need to say this.

414
00:24:41,557 --> 00:24:43,477
And I just woke up and I say what she says.

415
00:24:43,862 --> 00:24:51,712
But the whole elements of it, all of it was her and her team, um, you know, Mary

416
00:24:51,712 --> 00:24:56,092
and marketing and everybody building that over the following X months.

417
00:24:56,382 --> 00:25:00,092
And I, and I didn't actually see the video myself.

418
00:25:00,822 --> 00:25:04,572
Until less than a month before we launched it for the first time as a rough draft.

419
00:25:04,592 --> 00:25:06,432
And it was just basically perfect.

420
00:25:06,482 --> 00:25:11,362
My comments were like, uh, I actually didn't have any significant comments,

421
00:25:11,432 --> 00:25:14,092
but that was the same for most of the team and the design of the product.

422
00:25:14,372 --> 00:25:16,302
We had this incredible designer, Skylar.

423
00:25:16,792 --> 00:25:22,012
Um, I would give a brief and so as, um, Erik's brief was, I just want to

424
00:25:22,012 --> 00:25:25,112
be proud of something that I should be proud of, and that was it, you know?

425
00:25:25,162 --> 00:25:26,982
And I was like, it just needs to be really simple.

426
00:25:27,442 --> 00:25:29,212
And that's the high level.

427
00:25:29,232 --> 00:25:33,662
And I might give comments on a little bit here or there, but in general, whenever

428
00:25:33,662 --> 00:25:37,752
he gave me it, I would say, well, he Skylarized it, like just Skylarize it.

429
00:25:38,722 --> 00:25:41,272
And he would just come up with something that was great.

430
00:25:41,322 --> 00:25:45,892
And, um, and I think that was the last two years.

431
00:25:45,922 --> 00:25:48,002
We had the team we raised.

432
00:25:48,477 --> 00:25:52,117
Um, again, the choice of investors was really, really key.

433
00:25:52,537 --> 00:25:56,397
Uh, I was very, very, very sure, especially from my previous

434
00:25:56,397 --> 00:25:59,467
experiences, that I only wanted Bitcoin on the investors, especially

435
00:25:59,467 --> 00:26:00,777
for the first couple of rounds.

436
00:26:01,017 --> 00:26:05,577
And when I've sometimes do talks on how to set up a Bitcoin company, my

437
00:26:05,577 --> 00:26:11,157
first slide says don't do it, but, uh, and so a Bitcoin startup, I say,

438
00:26:11,167 --> 00:26:14,767
don't do it, but instead sort of a Bitcoin business, not a Bitcoin startup.

439
00:26:14,767 --> 00:26:16,237
And I explain the difference between the two.

440
00:26:16,717 --> 00:26:25,137
Um, and, um, but one part is, um, if you do want to raise capital, be really

441
00:26:25,197 --> 00:26:26,907
careful about your choice of investors.

442
00:26:26,957 --> 00:26:30,627
The wrong investors will, well, and they don't mean to, but they will

443
00:26:30,627 --> 00:26:34,137
kill your business without meaning to, but the right investors will.

444
00:26:34,277 --> 00:26:42,077
So, uh, we were really, really careful about our choice of

445
00:26:42,077 --> 00:26:45,687
investors and the initial team and then the initial team brought on

446
00:26:45,687 --> 00:26:47,007
the rest of the team after that.

447
00:26:47,447 --> 00:26:51,737
And that was the last, that's the last two years we've set ourself up very well.

448
00:26:52,072 --> 00:26:58,732
I did, being a classic entrepreneur, think it'll take six months, took two years.

449
00:26:59,172 --> 00:27:03,582
So I, so my estimation on that was a little bit off, but the end

450
00:27:03,582 --> 00:27:05,552
result, I'm really excited about.

451
00:27:05,682 --> 00:27:08,332
And now, now we're, now we're off to the races.

452
00:27:08,577 --> 00:27:09,777
Great news, everyone!

453
00:27:10,427 --> 00:27:12,587
Bitcoin, the inverse of clown world is out now.

454
00:27:12,817 --> 00:27:15,457
It's the successor to everything divided by 21 million.

455
00:27:15,657 --> 00:27:18,807
And it's based on the last two years of podcasts that we've done together.

456
00:27:19,007 --> 00:27:21,007
So if you like the show, you're going to love the book.

457
00:27:21,297 --> 00:27:22,827
Find the book on bitcoininfinitystore.

458
00:27:23,997 --> 00:27:25,557
com or on Amazon.

459
00:27:25,787 --> 00:27:26,237
That's right.

460
00:27:26,277 --> 00:27:27,647
We have our own store now.

461
00:27:27,737 --> 00:27:28,977
BitcoinInfinityStore.

462
00:27:28,997 --> 00:27:29,337
com.

463
00:27:29,457 --> 00:27:32,997
You can find not just books, but merchandise based on everything divided

464
00:27:32,997 --> 00:27:35,007
by 21 million, the inverse of Clown World.

465
00:27:35,037 --> 00:27:36,407
That's BitcoinInfinityStore.

466
00:27:36,407 --> 00:27:36,657
com.

467
00:27:36,817 --> 00:27:39,737
So check out Bitcoin, the inverse of Clown World today and buy some

468
00:27:39,737 --> 00:27:40,977
other stuff while you're there too.

469
00:27:41,352 --> 00:27:44,682
This show is brought to you by Bit Box, our favorite hardware wallet.

470
00:27:44,802 --> 00:27:48,432
It's Swiss engineered and has all the most important security features to keep

471
00:27:48,432 --> 00:27:52,842
your Bitcoin safe while keeping a user experience that even your grandma can use.

472
00:27:52,842 --> 00:27:53,982
So visit Bit Box.

473
00:27:53,982 --> 00:27:58,842
Do Swiss slash Freedom to learn more, or use Code Freedom at checkout for 5% off.

474
00:27:59,192 --> 00:28:02,762
And remember, it's the Bit Box zero two Bitcoin only edition.

475
00:28:02,762 --> 00:28:04,622
Make sure to get that Bitcoin only firmware.

476
00:28:05,032 --> 00:28:08,032
Bit box, bit box, bit box, bit box.

477
00:28:08,507 --> 00:28:13,967
And, and how, how does, uh, are you monetizing this any, in any way?

478
00:28:13,967 --> 00:28:15,917
How does the app make money?

479
00:28:16,447 --> 00:28:16,757
Yeah.

480
00:28:17,017 --> 00:28:17,797
For the company?

481
00:28:18,167 --> 00:28:22,047
if you use the app, um, whenever you use the Freddie app.

482
00:28:22,602 --> 00:28:26,362
Um, whenever a transaction happens, which would have occurred a fee.

483
00:28:26,362 --> 00:28:31,252
So it's a Bitcoin transaction, e cash or a lightning transaction.

484
00:28:31,752 --> 00:28:35,062
We add on an additional fee, 21, 21 basis points.

485
00:28:35,062 --> 00:28:36,692
So 0.

486
00:28:36,897 --> 00:28:37,467
Oh, yeah,

487
00:28:37,582 --> 00:28:41,742
And so, um, and the good thing is because we can charge in sats and I

488
00:28:41,742 --> 00:28:46,652
believe actually even fractions of a sat, it's a progressive tax, which a fee.

489
00:28:47,012 --> 00:28:48,632
So what I mean by that is.

490
00:28:48,972 --> 00:28:58,982
If you're sending, um, let's say 100 through, then you would be charged on 100.

491
00:28:59,292 --> 00:29:04,792
21, but if you're, worth of value, but if you're sending through

492
00:29:04,842 --> 00:29:07,202
1, then you'll be charged 0.

493
00:29:07,322 --> 00:29:09,272
21 cents.

494
00:29:09,642 --> 00:29:12,272
And if you're sending through 0.

495
00:29:12,272 --> 00:29:13,422
10, you'll be charged 0.

496
00:29:13,422 --> 00:29:13,572
20.

497
00:29:13,872 --> 00:29:15,672
0 to 1 cents.

498
00:29:15,862 --> 00:29:20,392
So it'll always be a very small percentage of what you're sending.

499
00:29:20,392 --> 00:29:23,282
Now, people might say in certain countries, don't they

500
00:29:23,282 --> 00:29:25,232
have mobile money and so on.

501
00:29:25,262 --> 00:29:28,152
But the problem is those mobile money systems have minimum fees.

502
00:29:28,467 --> 00:29:34,847
And it might be, so it might be, um, 1%, which is not, I mean, we're still

503
00:29:34,857 --> 00:29:36,657
better, but it's not that bad, say.

504
00:29:36,997 --> 00:29:40,287
And it might be, even in some terms of scale, it could be half

505
00:29:40,287 --> 00:29:43,947
a percent, but asterisks, but with a minimum fee of 20 cents.

506
00:29:44,387 --> 00:29:48,007
So if you're sending a hundred dollars, that's okay.

507
00:29:48,377 --> 00:29:53,547
But if you're, uh, if you're sending, um, 1, that's 20%.

508
00:29:54,537 --> 00:29:57,947
And so if you have someone who has a monthly salary of.

509
00:29:58,562 --> 00:30:01,522
10 in some of these markets, that 0.

510
00:30:01,522 --> 00:30:06,792
20 fee starts becoming quite a significant per transaction hit.

511
00:30:06,802 --> 00:30:11,022
So therefore it becomes unaffordable for you to use mobile money.

512
00:30:11,362 --> 00:30:15,052
So even though it's, it's prolific, it's prolific above a certain wealth

513
00:30:15,052 --> 00:30:20,102
level, you know, and uh, and so that leaves many, many people out,

514
00:30:20,192 --> 00:30:22,832
out, um, out in, uh, in the rain.

515
00:30:23,212 --> 00:30:28,182
But because this is progressive, if you're selling 10 cents, the, the, the,

516
00:30:28,182 --> 00:30:30,322
uh, fee will actually round to zero.

517
00:30:30,362 --> 00:30:34,402
I mean it will be a fee, but you'll see it in sats, but if you were showing,

518
00:30:34,402 --> 00:30:38,617
trying to show it in, And even in local currency, it would basically be, it'll

519
00:30:38,617 --> 00:30:42,997
say about zero and then you click and you realize it's this small amount of sats.

520
00:30:43,612 --> 00:30:44,917
so, yeah.

521
00:30:44,977 --> 00:30:48,718
Uh, the, the, the big thing that, that I'm thinking of if I'm like.

522
00:30:49,622 --> 00:30:52,852
Playing this out in my head with where this could be in 10 years, like

523
00:30:52,852 --> 00:30:57,172
you, you could run entire virtual nations on a federation, right?

524
00:30:57,212 --> 00:30:59,632
If you have the money and the communication and

525
00:30:59,632 --> 00:31:01,342
whatever other useful apps,

526
00:31:01,574 --> 00:31:08,494
I think the, the big, the big thing I think is, um, I think if you look

527
00:31:08,494 --> 00:31:19,154
at the internet, um, there are large organizations where, um, people use and,

528
00:31:19,244 --> 00:31:21,114
and, and they're highly centralized.

529
00:31:21,644 --> 00:31:27,074
You have a few people who may be wealthy enough to have their own direct connection

530
00:31:27,074 --> 00:31:29,854
to the internet, but the majority of people are connected on the internet.

531
00:31:31,494 --> 00:31:36,084
I don't know at this stage, millions of intranets, like household intranets

532
00:31:36,084 --> 00:31:40,904
effectively, um, company intranets and school intranets and so on,

533
00:31:41,104 --> 00:31:44,734
where it's one connection to the internet shared by multiple people.

534
00:31:45,174 --> 00:31:46,814
That's actually the majority of people.

535
00:31:46,884 --> 00:31:50,484
And it's that middle ground between these huge mega organizations that

536
00:31:50,484 --> 00:31:52,054
people are connected to one mainframe.

537
00:31:52,384 --> 00:31:55,694
With millions of users, I think there are very few of them now, but that was

538
00:31:55,694 --> 00:31:57,044
the denominant way at the beginning.

539
00:31:57,054 --> 00:32:01,494
It was these huge, centralized ways of connecting AOL, CompuServe, and so on.

540
00:32:01,764 --> 00:32:04,614
Now, they're actually relatively rare, but that was at the beginning.

541
00:32:04,694 --> 00:32:05,784
All of the internet was that.

542
00:32:05,814 --> 00:32:10,374
A few centralized parties, and I would liken them, conceptually in value terms,

543
00:32:10,454 --> 00:32:15,514
in value custody terms versus information custody terms, to, um, a coin basis.

544
00:32:16,174 --> 00:32:19,514
And also there were a lot of hobbyists who had their own direct

545
00:32:19,594 --> 00:32:21,634
ISDN connection to the internet.

546
00:32:22,114 --> 00:32:26,784
Um, but now most people connect through these intranets where they get one

547
00:32:26,784 --> 00:32:30,044
router, one connection, and they share with everybody in their household.

548
00:32:30,334 --> 00:32:35,164
That would be a criminal of the Uncle Jim federations or in their school or in

549
00:32:35,164 --> 00:32:37,904
their football club or in their office.

550
00:32:38,334 --> 00:32:43,114
That's probably 95 percent of people and I think that this approach of

551
00:32:43,124 --> 00:32:46,334
federated model from the size from.

552
00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:51,979
Five or six people up to five or six hundred thousand, that, that range

553
00:32:52,019 --> 00:32:54,699
can cover 80, 90 percent of usage.

554
00:32:56,259 --> 00:33:00,009
Can we go back to a little bit of a, the, the sort of the basics of, of how

555
00:33:00,009 --> 00:33:03,099
feint works in the, in the perspective of someone actually using this thing?

556
00:33:03,339 --> 00:33:07,719
So, so you, you explained to us last time some somewhat how it

557
00:33:07,719 --> 00:33:10,749
works, but just for my own sanity, check that I, that I got it.

558
00:33:10,749 --> 00:33:11,469
Something like that.

559
00:33:11,474 --> 00:33:16,569
If, if you are sending e cash within the federation, that that all is just.

560
00:33:17,139 --> 00:33:19,199
Direct between two users.

561
00:33:19,229 --> 00:33:22,859
There's not even any, essentially a record outside of that.

562
00:33:22,859 --> 00:33:25,709
No one knows those transactions are even happening.

563
00:33:25,709 --> 00:33:27,119
Is that essentially correct?

564
00:33:27,179 --> 00:33:27,449
Yeah.

565
00:33:27,459 --> 00:33:34,039
So the federation creates, um, well, helps you mint technically, I would

566
00:33:34,039 --> 00:33:37,539
say mint because it, because actually the user creates their own e cash,

567
00:33:37,559 --> 00:33:41,599
but actually funny enough, um, they create their own e cash, but it's

568
00:33:41,629 --> 00:33:45,479
unstamped and then they give it to the federation and they stick in an envelope.

569
00:33:46,149 --> 00:33:51,019
And then they, and they, they give it to the federation with, with some carbon copy

570
00:33:51,019 --> 00:33:53,019
paper on the inside the envelope as well.

571
00:33:53,299 --> 00:33:56,539
And the federation collectively signs.

572
00:33:56,549 --> 00:33:58,829
So let's say all four people go stamp, stamp, stamp.

573
00:33:58,869 --> 00:34:01,139
And that makes a, just for simplicity.

574
00:34:01,199 --> 00:34:02,459
And then that makes it valid.

575
00:34:02,529 --> 00:34:04,419
And then they give back the envelope to the user.

576
00:34:04,679 --> 00:34:08,149
The user then opens the envelope with the cache that they created, just a

577
00:34:08,149 --> 00:34:10,029
random, some random piece of data.

578
00:34:10,584 --> 00:34:14,464
And they now have this Ucash, but the, but the, the Ucash they've created

579
00:34:14,464 --> 00:34:17,994
now has got the five, the four stamps on it, say, for the four of us.

580
00:34:18,494 --> 00:34:23,124
And so anyone else in that, in that federation, any other, um, person who's,

581
00:34:23,464 --> 00:34:24,804
who's also connected to the federation.

582
00:34:25,689 --> 00:34:29,539
They can just literally, directly give them this, this

583
00:34:29,769 --> 00:34:32,119
random, random set of data.

584
00:34:32,569 --> 00:34:36,939
Let's say it's a picture of a fashionable dog and, and they

585
00:34:36,939 --> 00:34:37,999
can just give it to someone else.

586
00:34:38,219 --> 00:34:40,619
But the picture of the, and the person will receive it and they

587
00:34:40,619 --> 00:34:42,059
don't really care what the data says.

588
00:34:42,059 --> 00:34:44,849
They just look, are the four, four, four stamps on it?

589
00:34:44,859 --> 00:34:45,309
Yes.

590
00:34:45,529 --> 00:34:48,999
Then it means it was stamped by the Federation, which means it's backed

591
00:34:49,009 --> 00:34:51,079
by a certain amount of information.

592
00:34:51,609 --> 00:34:52,289
Actual Bitcoin.

593
00:34:52,869 --> 00:34:53,159
Yeah.

594
00:34:53,219 --> 00:34:56,069
So take the whole, uh, the full path.

595
00:34:56,439 --> 00:34:59,289
Someone deposits some Bitcoin in return.

596
00:34:59,389 --> 00:35:03,629
They also, along with the Bitcoin, send them an envelope, give them an

597
00:35:03,629 --> 00:35:08,659
envelope with, with this random piece of data in it to the Federation and

598
00:35:08,669 --> 00:35:09,919
the Federation receives the Bitcoin.

599
00:35:09,949 --> 00:35:10,269
Okay.

600
00:35:10,319 --> 00:35:12,249
I've received the Bitcoin envelope.

601
00:35:12,299 --> 00:35:12,589
Okay.

602
00:35:12,589 --> 00:35:13,129
I've received the Bitcoin.

603
00:35:13,879 --> 00:35:14,729
I will stamp.

604
00:35:14,859 --> 00:35:18,949
I, and I received one, um, you know, uh, let's say.

605
00:35:19,284 --> 00:35:21,034
10, 000 Satoshis.

606
00:35:21,374 --> 00:35:25,614
So I'm going to take my 10, 000 Satoshi stamp and stamp this envelope

607
00:35:25,614 --> 00:35:28,674
with 10, 000 Satoshis, pass it around to the other four, they all

608
00:35:28,674 --> 00:35:30,334
stamp the 10, 000 Satoshi stamp.

609
00:35:30,914 --> 00:35:32,844
And then give that back to the user.

610
00:35:33,054 --> 00:35:38,484
User opens the envelope and says, I've got, okay, I've got an e cash note with,

611
00:35:38,544 --> 00:35:42,934
with, that's been proven that the, that it's been validated by the guardians.

612
00:35:43,194 --> 00:35:46,274
So as long as we all trust the guardians are holding that and that

613
00:35:46,274 --> 00:35:47,844
they will honor this and redeem.

614
00:35:48,684 --> 00:35:49,084
That's it.

615
00:35:49,084 --> 00:35:51,984
So now I can pass it to anyone in the Federation.

616
00:35:52,084 --> 00:35:53,094
They receive it.

617
00:35:53,464 --> 00:35:57,414
They look at this picture of the, the, the cute dog, but what they're

618
00:35:57,414 --> 00:36:01,854
really looking at is, is it got the four stamps on it and it's 10, 000.

619
00:36:01,854 --> 00:36:04,624
So that means I've now received 10, 000 token.

620
00:36:04,964 --> 00:36:08,059
They can now at some point in the future, Often they do it

621
00:36:08,069 --> 00:36:10,549
immediately if they've gone into connection, but they don't have to.

622
00:36:10,859 --> 00:36:15,429
They can give it back to the, um, to the Federation.

623
00:36:15,859 --> 00:36:18,139
Federation will receive it and each one will check their own

624
00:36:18,139 --> 00:36:19,209
signature of the guardians.

625
00:36:19,249 --> 00:36:22,619
Okay, yep, yep, yep, it's, it's properly signed.

626
00:36:23,034 --> 00:36:27,084
Therefore, I'm willing to, and as long, with the, with it, they

627
00:36:27,264 --> 00:36:29,814
might give them a Bitcoin address to send the money on chain to.

628
00:36:30,074 --> 00:36:33,934
So they will receive it, okay, it's received, it looks good, they

629
00:36:33,934 --> 00:36:38,434
will then, um, record that this, um, e cash note has been spent.

630
00:36:39,004 --> 00:36:42,244
But they don't know, of all the e cash they received, which one it was,

631
00:36:42,284 --> 00:36:45,164
because they, each one they received in the first place was in an envelope.

632
00:36:45,344 --> 00:36:47,704
So was it the first one they received, or the middle one they received?

633
00:36:47,704 --> 00:36:48,554
They have no idea.

634
00:36:48,564 --> 00:36:50,674
It could have been received yesterday or a month ago.

635
00:36:50,954 --> 00:36:51,434
No way.

636
00:36:51,444 --> 00:36:55,184
All they know is, I must have stamped it, so it was one of the ones I stamped.

637
00:36:55,674 --> 00:36:59,154
And then they will look at the address the person's asking to send the Bitcoin

638
00:36:59,174 --> 00:37:01,644
to, and they will take some of the Bitcoin that they're holding in the

639
00:37:01,644 --> 00:37:05,284
multi sig that we're holding between the four of us and send it to that address.

640
00:37:05,464 --> 00:37:07,404
So that's called Redeem versus Mint.

641
00:37:07,734 --> 00:37:13,684
Now, um, the user experience from a user, we can get onto Lightning, that's

642
00:37:13,684 --> 00:37:18,334
another level of complexity, but it's simple just for Bitcoin and eCash for now.

643
00:37:18,784 --> 00:37:21,114
Um, for a user, I open up my app.

644
00:37:21,734 --> 00:37:28,954
And I, um, want to receive Bitcoin, um, outside, I would give a Bitcoin address.

645
00:37:28,954 --> 00:37:31,874
Someone sends me Bitcoin or I send it to myself from an outside

646
00:37:31,874 --> 00:37:33,504
wallet and I receive e cash.

647
00:37:33,884 --> 00:37:39,724
And then someone else in the, in the federation wants to, um, once I want

648
00:37:39,734 --> 00:37:44,664
to pay them some e cash, they will give me, um, they will give me a QR code

649
00:37:44,804 --> 00:37:47,674
to, to scan to pay and I will scan.

650
00:37:48,299 --> 00:37:54,159
And literally the e cash that's on my phone gets sent to them directly.

651
00:37:54,474 --> 00:37:59,574
From me to them, one to one, that person when they receive it could keep it on

652
00:37:59,574 --> 00:38:04,534
their phone or they could say, you know what, I want to send that back to the

653
00:38:04,624 --> 00:38:09,554
federation and they can send it back to the federation and then the federation can

654
00:38:09,564 --> 00:38:14,565
destroy that, issue them new, fresh e cash in different denominations, maybe not 10,

655
00:38:14,565 --> 00:38:19,174
000, but 10, 1, 000, you know, just like with notes, you could go and get change.

656
00:38:19,714 --> 00:38:23,174
Just like if you go to a post office and ask for change,

657
00:38:23,364 --> 00:38:25,014
or they can send it on chain.

658
00:38:25,429 --> 00:38:28,889
Yeah, because if someone transacts, right, if you're saying it gets sent from

659
00:38:28,929 --> 00:38:33,609
one computer, phone being a computer, whatever, one device to another,

660
00:38:34,089 --> 00:38:36,629
well, that original device would still

661
00:38:36,784 --> 00:38:37,434
Yes,

662
00:38:37,459 --> 00:38:38,999
copy of the thing on, right.

663
00:38:39,214 --> 00:38:40,524
So they will still have a copy.

664
00:38:41,394 --> 00:38:44,704
Now you are in the same, this is where the community aspect works,

665
00:38:44,704 --> 00:38:46,364
you are in the same community, so.

666
00:38:46,779 --> 00:38:51,349
If you're in the same community, um, and the person, you know, it's

667
00:38:51,349 --> 00:38:57,059
a merchant and you receive, and your, your phone will remember when

668
00:38:57,059 --> 00:38:59,599
you received what e cash, yeah?

669
00:38:59,689 --> 00:39:02,569
Even though it's private, you do know this e cash was received at this time and

670
00:39:02,569 --> 00:39:07,349
this time and this time for, and so, um, especially when you integrate with things,

671
00:39:07,449 --> 00:39:10,939
points of sale, it will say, well, you received this e cash for this purchase.

672
00:39:10,949 --> 00:39:11,629
You'll know that.

673
00:39:12,159 --> 00:39:15,479
Um, so then if it's, then if you go to redeem it, let's say at the end of the

674
00:39:15,479 --> 00:39:21,959
day, and some of it doesn't, um, doesn't match, you will know as the merchant,

675
00:39:22,219 --> 00:39:25,349
which e cash was involved in that.

676
00:39:25,349 --> 00:39:27,749
You'll say, well, the e cash involved in this transaction.

677
00:39:28,479 --> 00:39:30,109
And that transaction was with John.

678
00:39:30,189 --> 00:39:31,929
So you've got proof of work.

679
00:39:31,959 --> 00:39:34,339
There's also, uh, um, POW.

680
00:39:34,829 --> 00:39:38,259
There's also POP, which is proof of punchability.

681
00:39:38,549 --> 00:39:42,789
You know, so you can just walk up to them and say, uh, you gave me dud money.

682
00:39:42,789 --> 00:39:47,189
It's, it's, it's the same as if you have a merchant and you receive cash and then you

683
00:39:47,189 --> 00:39:49,139
finally got the end of the day to a bank.

684
00:39:49,599 --> 00:39:51,829
And some of the notes are counterfeit.

685
00:39:52,219 --> 00:39:56,809
Now, you don't find high levels of counterfeit notes in a community

686
00:39:56,809 --> 00:39:57,739
where people know each other.

687
00:39:57,969 --> 00:39:59,869
It's normally in these widespread communities.

688
00:39:59,869 --> 00:40:03,809
But in those scenarios, what most people will do and how the default way the

689
00:40:03,809 --> 00:40:09,819
app works is the moment you receive it, it immediately, um, goes off and, the

690
00:40:09,819 --> 00:40:14,679
moment you receive it, it immediately goes off and, uh, and redeems it and

691
00:40:14,679 --> 00:40:17,199
then issues itself back new, new change.

692
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:19,939
Yeah, that seems like a good default implementation.

693
00:40:19,939 --> 00:40:20,269
Yeah.

694
00:40:20,269 --> 00:40:23,259
but it doesn't, but if you have no, but the, the beautiful working that way,

695
00:40:23,259 --> 00:40:27,669
if you have no internet connectivity, you can still use it and still receive.

696
00:40:28,059 --> 00:40:33,469
Even, even if you can't send over the internet, you can create, you can create

697
00:40:33,499 --> 00:40:39,059
a QR code, which contains the e cash in the QR code, and the person can literally

698
00:40:39,069 --> 00:40:41,209
scan it and receive through the screen.

699
00:40:41,609 --> 00:40:45,659
Because as long as it's the QR code, the e cash note is just some text.

700
00:40:45,899 --> 00:40:49,899
So a QR code can represent that text and you can scan it, even if you have no data.

701
00:40:49,969 --> 00:40:53,979
So for example, um, it could be you're in an area where you have no

702
00:40:53,979 --> 00:40:57,519
data, rural, Latin America or so on.

703
00:40:57,519 --> 00:40:59,949
But it could also be something more innocuous.

704
00:40:59,949 --> 00:41:05,682
You could just be in a, in a big sort of, But the thing is is that you might be at

705
00:41:05,682 --> 00:41:09,714
a Glastonbury like concert and there are a thousand phones and there's no data.

706
00:41:09,724 --> 00:41:13,144
Or you're in an indoor conference place underground and there's no data.

707
00:41:13,544 --> 00:41:17,524
But you can still take payments or the merchant has internet because

708
00:41:17,524 --> 00:41:18,604
they're the ones who really need it.

709
00:41:18,614 --> 00:41:23,104
But the, but the, uh, But the buyer doesn't and so in which case the merchant

710
00:41:23,104 --> 00:41:25,854
has internet because they're connected wired in because they're they're fixed,

711
00:41:26,284 --> 00:41:31,294
but the the but the But the the buyer doesn't the buyer doesn't need to have

712
00:41:31,294 --> 00:41:36,094
internet to pay and the merchant will will will check or they'll just take a risk

713
00:41:36,454 --> 00:41:41,444
They'll they'll just take a risk just like in most merchants in high streets they

714
00:41:41,444 --> 00:41:45,084
accept a certain amount of breakage and a certain amount of transactions are gonna

715
00:41:45,094 --> 00:41:50,689
be Um, double are gonna be charged back by, um, credit card companies and so on.

716
00:41:50,959 --> 00:41:56,599
I used to, I used to work for, I used to be a CTO for a major pan-European,

717
00:41:56,599 --> 00:41:59,189
um, um, online auction company.

718
00:41:59,339 --> 00:42:02,279
At the time I was competing with, with, uh, eBay and so on.

719
00:42:02,339 --> 00:42:06,869
Uh, it was, I mean, we were in a headliner, 300 hundred people

720
00:42:06,869 --> 00:42:08,039
working for me in technology.

721
00:42:08,039 --> 00:42:09,899
It was a very big technology offering.

722
00:42:10,354 --> 00:42:14,794
And we were doing millions of transactions a week.

723
00:42:15,274 --> 00:42:18,144
It was very, very, um, very high volume.

724
00:42:19,014 --> 00:42:23,374
And you just, in those e commerce sites, you just accept a certain amount of

725
00:42:23,374 --> 00:42:26,134
breakage, a certain amount of returns, and a certain amount of chargebacks,

726
00:42:26,414 --> 00:42:28,864
even if you do nothing wrong and you just factor it into your costs.

727
00:42:29,544 --> 00:42:32,294
For the benefit of the simplicity of the experience.

728
00:42:33,779 --> 00:42:39,599
you mentioned Nostr before, like, what's the marriage between Fedi and Nostr?

729
00:42:39,599 --> 00:42:39,949
Like,

730
00:42:40,297 --> 00:42:46,407
Well, I would say right now, we are, um, we are, uh,

731
00:42:47,622 --> 00:42:48,362
because I think.

732
00:42:48,387 --> 00:42:49,357
we're beyond dating.

733
00:42:49,357 --> 00:42:50,717
We're engaged.

734
00:42:51,157 --> 00:42:55,047
But we want to really take the two footed tackle of no return,

735
00:42:55,047 --> 00:42:56,567
to use a football euphemism.

736
00:42:56,987 --> 00:42:57,287
And,

737
00:42:57,417 --> 00:42:58,847
a web of trust thing, right?

738
00:42:59,092 --> 00:43:04,732
Yeah, I think, whenever, from the first point I saw Nostr, a lot of people thought

739
00:43:04,732 --> 00:43:06,502
it was just social media and so on.

740
00:43:06,502 --> 00:43:08,782
I think social media is, is

741
00:43:11,602 --> 00:43:17,612
Trojan horse is the wrong word, but it's the, it's the, um, initial vector

742
00:43:17,812 --> 00:43:19,702
by which it infiltrates communities.

743
00:43:19,992 --> 00:43:25,862
But what you're actually doing is building a simple, um, trust system

744
00:43:25,902 --> 00:43:27,242
and a simple discovery system.

745
00:43:27,292 --> 00:43:33,251
It's a form of decentralized search and it's a form decentralized identity.

746
00:43:33,251 --> 00:43:36,694
Cause you, to search, you have to identify things to be able to search.

747
00:43:36,694 --> 00:43:38,444
So they're, they're sort of two sides of the same coin.

748
00:43:38,944 --> 00:43:44,164
Um, now the first thing you're using it for is identifying people who want to

749
00:43:44,174 --> 00:43:48,724
speak publicly and share their thoughts and so on and so forth and follow

750
00:43:48,724 --> 00:43:50,614
them and, and give feedback and like.

751
00:43:50,974 --> 00:43:55,294
But it always seemed to me to, um, way more powerful than that.

752
00:43:55,304 --> 00:43:58,827
And I think now people, generally understand it that way.

753
00:43:59,197 --> 00:44:05,717
And so, um, What we've already done, um, in Fedi, and a lot of developers really

754
00:44:05,717 --> 00:44:12,617
like the way it works, um, if you sign up to Fedi, or if you download the Fedi

755
00:44:12,637 --> 00:44:17,597
app and start using it, you, um, first of all, you don't need to give your email,

756
00:44:17,597 --> 00:44:20,667
you don't need to give your phone number because it's, it's, it's not required,

757
00:44:20,957 --> 00:44:27,122
but, um, we do ask you to come up with some sort of Username for yourself.

758
00:44:27,212 --> 00:44:28,752
That doesn't even have to be unique, by the way.

759
00:44:29,072 --> 00:44:32,714
We will add a unique element at the end, um, from it.

760
00:44:32,714 --> 00:44:37,694
But what we do is, um, whenever you create that label, which you can change the name,

761
00:44:37,724 --> 00:44:45,084
but we create, um, uh, an NSEC, which is a Nostr, um, identity effectively.

762
00:44:45,104 --> 00:44:48,184
A unique identity and we automatically create that for you.

763
00:44:48,184 --> 00:44:52,934
So again, for our users, we don't want to start educating them on the history

764
00:44:52,934 --> 00:44:58,644
of Austrian economics and Bitcoin and inflation at the beginning or, or a Nostr,

765
00:44:58,644 --> 00:45:00,714
et cetera, and how it works and relays.

766
00:45:00,714 --> 00:45:04,124
And uh, we just want them to start using it.

767
00:45:04,604 --> 00:45:08,884
And then subtly over time we expose certain features of it.

768
00:45:08,884 --> 00:45:11,734
So people become curious and then eventually.

769
00:45:12,474 --> 00:45:15,984
You want to learn how this thing that's delivering value works, but we've put

770
00:45:16,424 --> 00:45:19,634
proof of work first, proof of talk second.

771
00:45:19,644 --> 00:45:23,534
So we educate through letting people see the benefits.

772
00:45:23,754 --> 00:45:27,404
And then there might be some people might say, well, how does this car thing work?

773
00:45:27,554 --> 00:45:29,044
Or how does this fridge thing work?

774
00:45:29,414 --> 00:45:32,934
But I don't need to know how refrigerant works to be able to use a fridge or

775
00:45:32,934 --> 00:45:34,374
how microwaves work to use a microwave.

776
00:45:34,604 --> 00:45:37,344
I might want, I may, I may never want to know, but some people will.

777
00:45:37,674 --> 00:45:40,354
Be inquisitive and then they'll go to the next stage and then we're ready

778
00:45:40,354 --> 00:45:44,224
with the Fedi Knights to educate them When they want to know how all this

779
00:45:44,224 --> 00:45:45,614
stuff works, but we benefit first.

780
00:45:45,824 --> 00:45:49,634
So, um, and so and that's how it works with Nostr We

781
00:45:49,674 --> 00:45:51,144
immediately give you an NSEC.

782
00:45:51,574 --> 00:45:54,404
And so because we've got that if you go and use unleash.

783
00:45:54,554 --> 00:45:59,404
chat, for example within the app It will go and you click login and

784
00:45:59,404 --> 00:46:02,364
there's one option login by Nostr You click that and it'll just within

785
00:46:02,364 --> 00:46:05,399
the app pop up something saying Nostr Do you want to log in with Nostr?

786
00:46:05,409 --> 00:46:09,669
And you click yes, and you're logged in and it just works and then you, and then

787
00:46:09,669 --> 00:46:14,829
also now you're logged in and then you can, and then you click, um, um, deposit

788
00:46:14,829 --> 00:46:18,439
money and instead of having to go to a different app, copy and paste the QR

789
00:46:18,439 --> 00:46:22,599
codes, it just, it pops up and says, do you, this, this, what the app's asking

790
00:46:22,599 --> 00:46:25,039
you to deposit this amount of money?

791
00:46:25,039 --> 00:46:26,519
Do you want to go ahead?

792
00:46:26,529 --> 00:46:27,029
Yes.

793
00:46:27,399 --> 00:46:28,769
And then it's e cash.

794
00:46:29,494 --> 00:46:33,134
Is, is converted into lightning and then that you pay by lightning.

795
00:46:33,134 --> 00:46:37,774
But from your point of view, there's a circling key for three or four seconds.

796
00:46:38,124 --> 00:46:39,504
You have now credited your account.

797
00:46:39,764 --> 00:46:41,094
Do you want to withdraw the money back account?

798
00:46:41,134 --> 00:46:42,344
You click withdraw the amount.

799
00:46:43,164 --> 00:46:45,354
Three or four seconds, it's been withdrawn to your account and,

800
00:46:45,594 --> 00:46:47,384
and it's all within the same app.

801
00:46:47,774 --> 00:46:53,544
Um, so, but that only works because now if you, um, close the app or

802
00:46:53,544 --> 00:46:56,934
delete the mods, because you can delete these mods or these additional pieces

803
00:46:56,934 --> 00:47:01,154
of functionality, they're basically webpages, but the icon for them, and

804
00:47:01,164 --> 00:47:04,314
they have an app like experience, but they're actually just webpages.

805
00:47:04,804 --> 00:47:08,354
Um, and then you go away and then you come and then you

806
00:47:08,364 --> 00:47:10,104
delete the app from your service.

807
00:47:10,574 --> 00:47:11,304
And then.

808
00:47:11,929 --> 00:47:18,039
Like six months later, you, you come back, you, um, you, you enter your

809
00:47:18,069 --> 00:47:21,919
12 words, you're, you're re log on.

810
00:47:22,119 --> 00:47:27,519
And then if you scan to join a federation again, it will recognize that you were a

811
00:47:27,519 --> 00:47:31,399
member of the federation before, and it will reconstitute and recreate all your

812
00:47:31,429 --> 00:47:33,779
e cash and put it back on your phone.

813
00:47:34,099 --> 00:47:39,199
And then if you click on, um, um, Unleash your chat or Stacker News or

814
00:47:39,549 --> 00:47:41,399
anyone that supports logging by Nostr.

815
00:47:42,089 --> 00:47:45,929
Your login with the same details and so on.

816
00:47:45,979 --> 00:47:49,639
So you basically, um, and we want to make that even more seamless.

817
00:47:49,649 --> 00:47:53,829
So from 12 words, your entire life can you think about moving from

818
00:47:53,829 --> 00:47:56,599
one mobile phone to another, where you have to move all your apps,

819
00:47:57,019 --> 00:47:59,739
your banking apps, your chat apps.

820
00:48:00,339 --> 00:48:05,069
And now you could do that with just go and also try moving from an iPhone to

821
00:48:05,069 --> 00:48:06,649
an Android phone, Android to an iPhone.

822
00:48:06,649 --> 00:48:07,049
It's a nightmare.

823
00:48:07,349 --> 00:48:09,939
Here you could just download the Fedi app on your iPhone.

824
00:48:11,489 --> 00:48:14,199
Um, this is some far point in the future.

825
00:48:14,609 --> 00:48:16,759
You don't have just chat, but you also have voice.

826
00:48:16,759 --> 00:48:20,299
You have video, all of that running from encrypted chat.

827
00:48:20,769 --> 00:48:27,899
Um, you have access to money from, um, and, and, and, and custody and payments.

828
00:48:28,099 --> 00:48:32,559
You have access to all these apps and then you back up 12 words.

829
00:48:33,229 --> 00:48:35,059
And there's something we call social backup, which is mind

830
00:48:35,059 --> 00:48:36,709
blowing, but, uh, that's in beta.

831
00:48:37,119 --> 00:48:41,979
But let's just say backup 12 words, and then you delete that app, go to a

832
00:48:41,979 --> 00:48:46,089
different phone, could be an Android or an iPhone, and you just enter 12

833
00:48:46,109 --> 00:48:49,629
words, and your entire thing comes back.

834
00:48:49,629 --> 00:48:54,699
Not partially back, not, not, not, but it all will come back.

835
00:48:55,309 --> 00:49:00,499
Um, based on just those 12 words and that's part, that's only made possible

836
00:49:00,499 --> 00:49:03,019
because of Nostr and we want it over time.

837
00:49:03,514 --> 00:49:05,134
mean, when you think about it, it's insane.

838
00:49:05,134 --> 00:49:08,434
It's already insane with bitcoins, with the 12 magic words, because like

839
00:49:08,434 --> 00:49:12,454
every time I pass a security check at an airport, I think that go ahead,

840
00:49:12,534 --> 00:49:15,064
have my 200 milliliters of toothpaste.

841
00:49:15,434 --> 00:49:20,514
I'll, I have my 12 magic words, like it's the ultimate fuck you to, to anyone trying

842
00:49:20,514 --> 00:49:21,924
to meddle with your business, right?

843
00:49:22,164 --> 00:49:23,744
But now you can, you can simply.

844
00:49:24,534 --> 00:49:27,924
You burn a phone in one country, buy a new phone in another country, and

845
00:49:27,924 --> 00:49:30,614
you can have your entire online life.

846
00:49:30,619 --> 00:49:31,399
that's the dream.

847
00:49:31,399 --> 00:49:36,329
I mean, we're not fully there, but it's, I would say it's like, we're like 90

848
00:49:36,329 --> 00:49:42,679
percent there, but, but to extend beyond just your Bitcoin, um, Nostr is, is

849
00:49:42,699 --> 00:49:46,179
the protocol that allows us to do that because, because it's notes and other

850
00:49:46,179 --> 00:49:51,509
stuff and the other stuff can be, um, Um, an encrypted version of the, all of

851
00:49:51,509 --> 00:49:55,989
the settings and so on that you have that we can store and be willing to pay for.

852
00:49:55,989 --> 00:50:00,844
And then, then when you recover, We can then, um, we, we, you have

853
00:50:00,844 --> 00:50:05,184
your bitcoin, but then you can go off and send a request to say here,

854
00:50:05,204 --> 00:50:07,414
I'm willing to recover this file.

855
00:50:07,854 --> 00:50:10,564
Here's some zaps for the file and you get the file back and that additional

856
00:50:10,564 --> 00:50:11,954
file then contains the information.

857
00:50:11,954 --> 00:50:14,864
Okay, these are the federations you are a member of, you rejoin them.

858
00:50:15,104 --> 00:50:17,744
These are the mods that you had, they're reset up.

859
00:50:17,774 --> 00:50:19,734
These are the settings you had, they're reset up.

860
00:50:20,199 --> 00:50:23,149
And then you log on them automatically using Nostr as well,

861
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:25,259
uh, the NSEC and Nostr login.

862
00:50:25,289 --> 00:50:29,729
And, but from your point of view as the user, 12 words, it's back.

863
00:50:29,769 --> 00:50:32,989
I mean, you might have to have a, you might have to drink a cup of coffee

864
00:50:32,989 --> 00:50:38,019
while it's happening, but you know, 5, 10, 20 minutes later, it's back.

865
00:50:38,294 --> 00:50:40,604
it's amazing, and it's an inheritance plan.

866
00:50:40,684 --> 00:50:45,584
Like, you can live forever by just letting your descendants, giving them the

867
00:50:45,584 --> 00:50:47,354
12 words when you're on your deathbed.

868
00:50:47,754 --> 00:50:52,514
backup also becomes really powerful, because social backup means that,

869
00:50:52,564 --> 00:50:56,814
um, cause, cause the 12 words is still another thing to secure.

870
00:50:56,824 --> 00:51:00,014
And it's sort of one of these turtles all the way down type scenarios.

871
00:51:00,014 --> 00:51:00,384
Okay.

872
00:51:00,714 --> 00:51:04,434
We've got all this incredible security Fort Knox like, but behind them, but

873
00:51:04,434 --> 00:51:07,654
I walk around the back of the Fort Knox is these 12 words that's stored.

874
00:51:08,504 --> 00:51:13,154
You know, on a, on a fridge with a fridge magnet, because, because, you know,

875
00:51:13,164 --> 00:51:15,434
because you're storing it really securely.

876
00:51:15,434 --> 00:51:16,544
Of course, you're a fridge.

877
00:51:16,644 --> 00:51:21,284
But you also give one to your cousin and you say, look after this as a backup.

878
00:51:21,534 --> 00:51:23,204
And your cousin stores it on a fridge magnet.

879
00:51:23,274 --> 00:51:26,504
You know, you don't know, or you don't know your, your, your security

880
00:51:26,504 --> 00:51:28,014
is the lowest common denominator.

881
00:51:28,594 --> 00:51:29,684
For your 12 words.

882
00:51:30,234 --> 00:51:30,654
And

883
00:51:30,914 --> 00:51:32,294
is never stronger than the weakest

884
00:51:32,504 --> 00:51:33,644
then the weakest link.

885
00:51:33,684 --> 00:51:38,784
And so with social backup, which is definitely an early beta.

886
00:51:39,114 --> 00:51:45,254
Um, um, what we can do is use the power of the federation where we can

887
00:51:45,254 --> 00:51:50,514
take your 12 words, um, encrypt them and then split it up between the

888
00:51:50,514 --> 00:51:53,804
four guardians in this case, or seven guardians or 40 guardians or whatever.

889
00:51:54,144 --> 00:51:58,664
For larger federations, and they all hold a piece of your

890
00:51:59,144 --> 00:52:01,414
encrypted piece of your, of

891
00:52:01,524 --> 00:52:02,504
is important here.

892
00:52:02,714 --> 00:52:02,974
Yeah.

893
00:52:09,037 --> 00:52:10,737
Knut, what are you doing over there?

894
00:52:11,197 --> 00:52:12,517
I'm stamping my seed.

895
00:52:12,807 --> 00:52:16,157
Everyone tells me I should, that it's good for bitcoin security and whatnot,

896
00:52:16,177 --> 00:52:19,697
and that I should go balls deep into bitcoin security, so I'm stamping.

897
00:52:22,457 --> 00:52:23,787
You don't do it like that, Knut.

898
00:52:23,907 --> 00:52:25,187
You don't stamp that seed.

899
00:52:25,387 --> 00:52:26,907
You stamp your seed phrase.

900
00:52:27,247 --> 00:52:27,597
What?

901
00:52:28,387 --> 00:52:29,307
Your seed phrase.

902
00:52:29,837 --> 00:52:32,227
Oh, so that's what these things are for.

903
00:52:32,647 --> 00:52:34,297
All of this stuff that they sent me.

904
00:52:35,012 --> 00:52:36,712
Like, oh, oh, I get it now.

905
00:52:36,762 --> 00:52:38,022
That's exactly right, Knut.

906
00:52:38,282 --> 00:52:41,722
And you can get everything you need to stamp your seed phrase at stampseed.

907
00:52:41,732 --> 00:52:42,072
com.

908
00:52:42,312 --> 00:52:44,952
And be sure to check out our limited edition Everything Divided

909
00:52:44,952 --> 00:52:47,102
by 21 Million Titanium Seed Plate.

910
00:52:47,302 --> 00:52:50,052
And use code INFINITY at checkout for 15 percent off.

911
00:52:50,262 --> 00:52:51,292
That's fantastic!

912
00:52:51,952 --> 00:52:53,232
And it hurts way less!

913
00:53:59,103 --> 00:54:02,773
So this gets me back to what happens when one of the guardians drops off, and if

914
00:54:02,773 --> 00:54:06,983
it's like in a permanent way, if they, if that one guardian is holding a piece of

915
00:54:07,053 --> 00:54:08,743
everyone else's 12 words, does everyone

916
00:54:09,028 --> 00:54:09,478
Yeah.

917
00:54:09,478 --> 00:54:12,938
But it uses a prot, it's, it's, it's, it's, this is crypto,

918
00:54:12,938 --> 00:54:14,238
where cryptography comes in.

919
00:54:14,238 --> 00:54:16,288
So it's not, it's not like.

920
00:54:16,703 --> 00:54:20,923
We've taken your 12 words and split it up free, free, free,

921
00:54:20,923 --> 00:54:22,863
free between four guardians.

922
00:54:23,223 --> 00:54:30,543
Instead, you encrypt it using a scheme that allows each one of the four of

923
00:54:30,543 --> 00:54:33,963
us to have a cryptographic piece.

924
00:54:34,153 --> 00:54:39,043
But as long as any three of us combine our piece together, we can recombine.

925
00:54:39,393 --> 00:54:40,863
Uh, we can comb by recon.

926
00:54:40,863 --> 00:54:45,033
It is, it's a, it's called, um, SHAIR Secret Sharing Scheme, but it's, it's a

927
00:54:45,033 --> 00:54:47,643
way of cryptographically achieving that.

928
00:54:47,918 --> 00:54:52,108
Excellent, and well, so, and I think you mentioned last time as well that if a

929
00:54:52,108 --> 00:54:55,708
guardian does go down, essentially you can replace that guardian, and, and, I

930
00:54:55,708 --> 00:55:00,758
would, well, okay, can you take us through that, adding or replacing a guardian

931
00:55:00,758 --> 00:55:02,028
if that ever were to need to happen?

932
00:55:02,636 --> 00:55:08,806
replacing a garden is, um, probably one of the most complex things.

933
00:55:08,806 --> 00:55:14,086
And so you wouldn't necessarily replace a guardian, but what you would do

934
00:55:14,086 --> 00:55:18,466
is, uh, some, if someone were to go down, there's two different things.

935
00:55:18,466 --> 00:55:19,306
The machine.

936
00:55:19,786 --> 00:55:22,426
Or the guardian, the actual person.

937
00:55:22,816 --> 00:55:29,546
So if the machine goes down, you can set up a new machine and you

938
00:55:29,546 --> 00:55:31,306
can recover the status of that.

939
00:55:31,436 --> 00:55:34,696
You can, you can download the 30 minute software on that new machine.

940
00:55:34,956 --> 00:55:37,126
So that's the actual server that's running.

941
00:55:37,851 --> 00:55:44,451
And that will then connect to the rest of the federation and, and carry on.

942
00:55:44,691 --> 00:55:49,101
So as long as the guardian has a backup of their keys, they can recover

943
00:55:49,431 --> 00:55:52,791
that one machine and, and catch up and it'll automatically catch up.

944
00:55:52,791 --> 00:55:55,881
Just like if you turn off a Bitcoin node and turn it on, it

945
00:55:55,881 --> 00:55:59,216
will recon, it will reconnect to the Bitcoin network and catch up.

946
00:55:59,961 --> 00:56:01,181
It's a similar concept.

947
00:56:01,191 --> 00:56:06,491
So, so that's if a machine went down, if a machine was temporarily disconnected from

948
00:56:06,491 --> 00:56:13,201
the internet or, uh, lost power, it would just restart and reconnect and, and you

949
00:56:13,201 --> 00:56:17,611
will have zero downtime as a user, as long as it's free, still running and active.

950
00:56:18,041 --> 00:56:22,231
And this will all be, you'll, you'll notice that the performance, the

951
00:56:22,231 --> 00:56:26,741
performance will still be the same, but you, if you went into settings for

952
00:56:26,741 --> 00:56:30,821
that federation, you'll see that three of the four are running, so one is not

953
00:56:30,831 --> 00:56:32,731
running, but that won't affect your usage.

954
00:56:32,841 --> 00:56:37,051
Is the N of M like a ratio, or is it always N 1, for example?

955
00:56:37,131 --> 00:56:37,551
Like a

956
00:56:37,551 --> 00:56:38,731
It's a ratio.

957
00:56:38,731 --> 00:56:44,751
It's, um, it's, uh, um, the number of guardians that, um,

958
00:56:46,371 --> 00:56:52,551
you, um, Um, you need to have is dependent on how much redundancy.

959
00:56:52,551 --> 00:56:57,391
So if you want to be, if you want to be able to handle one guardian

960
00:56:57,391 --> 00:57:03,721
going down, then you'll need to have, um, one times by three plus one.

961
00:57:03,751 --> 00:57:04,691
So that's four.

962
00:57:04,761 --> 00:57:06,131
So that's why you need three or four.

963
00:57:06,511 --> 00:57:09,501
Um, if you want to handle two going down, then you need two times by

964
00:57:09,521 --> 00:57:11,011
three plus one, which is seven.

965
00:57:11,011 --> 00:57:12,801
So it's five of seven.

966
00:57:13,576 --> 00:57:19,556
7 of 10, 9 of 13, and so on and so forth.

967
00:57:20,526 --> 00:57:23,656
You can have more than that, but the time that you get additional redundancy is

968
00:57:23,676 --> 00:57:29,396
every 3, but you can have, you can have, for example, 4 of 5, if you wanted to.

969
00:57:30,166 --> 00:57:36,996
Anyway, so, yeah, in the event that someone goes down, that the machine

970
00:57:36,996 --> 00:57:40,551
goes down, Um, that you can recover.

971
00:57:40,921 --> 00:57:47,281
Um, recently there was an issue where one machine, um, where two

972
00:57:47,291 --> 00:57:52,111
federations, um, had an issue with the domain name for one of those servers.

973
00:57:52,491 --> 00:57:58,631
And so if the domain name for someone is no longer available, um, you can now, with

974
00:57:58,651 --> 00:58:04,601
the update that came out a couple of weeks after that, you can, you can modify, um,

975
00:58:04,611 --> 00:58:06,721
the domain name for a, for a guardian.

976
00:58:07,121 --> 00:58:12,631
Um, for a Guardian 30 minute server, and it would communicate that securely

977
00:58:12,631 --> 00:58:17,691
with the other, uh, Federation servers and, and then reconnect

978
00:58:17,771 --> 00:58:20,801
and, and, uh, continue to operate.

979
00:58:20,971 --> 00:58:23,681
But it's important to, even in that scenario where the Federa uh,

980
00:58:23,681 --> 00:58:27,401
Guardian, the domain name server went down, the Federation itself,

981
00:58:27,806 --> 00:58:30,786
Continue to operate because there was still at least free running.

982
00:58:30,786 --> 00:58:32,606
So there was no downtime for the user.

983
00:58:32,826 --> 00:58:39,456
Whereas if, if we hadn't been federated, then for the one week or so where that

984
00:58:39,456 --> 00:58:43,826
was down, the users would have had no access at all, which would be the case

985
00:58:43,826 --> 00:58:47,966
where you're connecting to a centralized or a single server, um, offering.

986
00:58:48,456 --> 00:58:54,266
Um, now, if you're, if one of the guardians, for some reason, um, the

987
00:58:54,266 --> 00:58:56,376
actual people who are running the Fedemyst server, for some reason, you

988
00:58:56,376 --> 00:58:59,836
no longer trusted them, they'd, they'd been helpful all their life and all

989
00:58:59,836 --> 00:59:04,666
of a sudden they decided, or they've been, they've been turned by some,

990
00:59:04,806 --> 00:59:13,946
some, um, um, you know, um, malevolent, uh, malevolent nefarious um, actor.

991
00:59:14,761 --> 00:59:21,941
Then you, if you could in theory pass to someone else, but in practice, you

992
00:59:21,941 --> 00:59:25,451
know, how do I know that the other person isn't still going to continue

993
00:59:25,451 --> 00:59:27,341
to operate it and so on and so forth.

994
00:59:27,701 --> 00:59:32,211
So what you actually want to do is set up a different federation and

995
00:59:32,531 --> 00:59:37,551
transfer people, the other three guardians and inform people with

996
00:59:37,641 --> 00:59:39,161
a different set of four people.

997
00:59:39,191 --> 00:59:40,361
So those three, plus someone else.

998
00:59:40,946 --> 00:59:43,186
And just tell people to transfer their balances across.

999
00:59:43,536 --> 00:59:47,866
But transferring balances across is, is as easy as doing a lightning

1000
00:59:47,866 --> 00:59:49,766
transaction from one server to another.

1001
00:59:50,086 --> 00:59:54,256
You can, you know, within the FEDI app, be a member of multiple

1002
00:59:54,286 --> 00:59:55,596
federations at the same time.

1003
00:59:55,846 --> 00:59:59,556
I mean, right now, I mean, I'm a bit of a power user, but I'm a member of, I

1004
00:59:59,556 --> 01:00:04,886
don't know, um, over a dozen different federations from around the world.

1005
01:00:05,036 --> 01:00:07,086
I mean, well over a dozen, I think, yeah.

1006
01:00:07,631 --> 01:00:11,581
Um, and as we've, I'm sure there's people in the team with way more than that.

1007
01:00:11,651 --> 01:00:15,171
Um, um, but obviously I can't advertise the names because many of

1008
01:00:15,181 --> 01:00:17,811
them are, are private federations.

1009
01:00:17,821 --> 01:00:21,281
So, but there's a few public ones, but there's way more private ones.

1010
01:00:22,441 --> 01:00:26,601
So is the, is the e cash, if you're in multiple federations, is it interoperable

1011
01:00:26,621 --> 01:00:30,651
there, or it's like a more like a, it's a lightning transaction between those two

1012
01:00:30,651 --> 01:00:33,361
federations, but it's e cash that lives

1013
01:00:33,861 --> 01:00:35,001
You got it.

1014
01:00:35,001 --> 01:00:40,866
It's, it's, um, E cash lives within its federation, but the interoperability

1015
01:00:40,866 --> 01:00:43,746
layer for most people is not on chain.

1016
01:00:44,116 --> 01:00:48,456
It's for the vast majority of people, it's Lightning, so, but the user

1017
01:00:48,456 --> 01:00:52,916
experience of sending e cash from one person to another in the same federation,

1018
01:00:53,226 --> 01:00:57,396
sending e cash from one person to someone else receiving Lightning.

1019
01:00:57,906 --> 01:01:01,586
on a different wallet that's got nothing to do with Ferdie Mint.

1020
01:01:02,096 --> 01:01:06,376
And finally sending e cash from one person in one federation.

1021
01:01:07,081 --> 01:01:10,111
To someone else in another federation over the Lightning Network in

1022
01:01:10,111 --> 01:01:12,001
between is exactly the same.

1023
01:01:12,291 --> 01:01:17,991
From your point of view, QR code scan and the system will combination of

1024
01:01:17,991 --> 01:01:24,961
the Fedi app and or whatever Fedi Mint compatible app you're using and Fedi

1025
01:01:24,981 --> 01:01:29,261
Mint servers will make the experience It will figure out in this case.

1026
01:01:29,531 --> 01:01:31,061
I just need to send the person the cash.

1027
01:01:31,351 --> 01:01:35,861
In this case I just need, I can send e cash out over Lightning

1028
01:01:36,321 --> 01:01:37,521
and that's my job is done.

1029
01:01:37,551 --> 01:01:39,801
And then the other side would be a Lightning wallet and it will receive.

1030
01:01:40,231 --> 01:01:44,051
And in this case, I will send e cash over Lightning to another federation,

1031
01:01:44,051 --> 01:01:46,501
but I don't even know if it's another federation, it's just a Lightning address.

1032
01:01:46,991 --> 01:01:51,793
And then the other federation, um, receives, receives the transaction

1033
01:01:51,793 --> 01:01:56,811
and the other 30 minute server receives e cash on the other side.

1034
01:01:56,811 --> 01:02:02,381
But from a user's point of view, This is, this is the thing that also took the two

1035
01:02:02,381 --> 01:02:05,601
years to make the experience the same.

1036
01:02:05,611 --> 01:02:08,171
You just don't have to worry about which one is doing.

1037
01:02:08,181 --> 01:02:09,481
The fees will be slightly different.

1038
01:02:09,491 --> 01:02:15,271
One won't have a Lightning component to the fee, um, e cash to e cash, but, um,

1039
01:02:15,341 --> 01:02:20,031
the other two will because it will be like, in both cases, it will be e cash to

1040
01:02:20,041 --> 01:02:22,091
Lightning, um, from your point of view.

1041
01:02:22,101 --> 01:02:26,081
So is there a fee to, to send e cash to someone else in the same federation?

1042
01:02:26,081 --> 01:02:26,741
No, I guess.

1043
01:02:26,741 --> 01:02:27,041
Right.

1044
01:02:27,326 --> 01:02:28,556
It depends on the federation.

1045
01:02:28,626 --> 01:02:34,816
Um, so, uh, the federation, uh, could choose not to charge a fee and many in,

1046
01:02:34,826 --> 01:02:39,426
in these times choose not to because they're doing it for friends and family

1047
01:02:39,426 --> 01:02:41,786
and so on and the fees are, are minimal.

1048
01:02:42,136 --> 01:02:49,446
Um, but, um, the Ferryman protocol does support, um, what we call a DDoS fee.

1049
01:02:49,666 --> 01:02:55,036
So basically you can, you're, you're spending effort time to issue.

1050
01:02:55,461 --> 01:02:59,011
These notes to, to, well, not to issue, but to, to sign these notes,

1051
01:02:59,241 --> 01:03:03,091
the, the, the issuing is done by the user, but the, the stamping takes time.

1052
01:03:03,091 --> 01:03:06,551
You're, you're, you're, you're, you're creating, you're, you're signing something

1053
01:03:06,551 --> 01:03:07,971
cryptographically, that's effort.

1054
01:03:08,391 --> 01:03:12,061
And, uh, and you're also doing it in a federated manner, so you're coordinating

1055
01:03:12,101 --> 01:03:13,621
and then you're all collectively signing.

1056
01:03:13,961 --> 01:03:22,161
So, um, to avoid DDoS, um, you can, you can turn on a fee and, by our

1057
01:03:22,161 --> 01:03:25,631
calculations, it doesn't need to be very large, one sat per note that issued is

1058
01:03:25,651 --> 01:03:30,411
enough to prevent, because if someone really tried to DDoS you at scale, they

1059
01:03:30,411 --> 01:03:38,171
could, but on normal sort of consumer laptops or hardware, you know, they'll

1060
01:03:38,171 --> 01:03:41,341
have to spend, you know, hundreds of thousands a month at that sort of, you

1061
01:03:41,341 --> 01:03:44,511
know, At that, at one sat per note, and in which case you'll say, fine, you

1062
01:03:44,511 --> 01:03:48,001
know, you're, you're, you're giving me one, you know, hundreds of thousands of

1063
01:03:48,001 --> 01:03:53,631
dollars worth of Bitcoin to, to, to, to burn, you know, to, to burn my, um, CPU.

1064
01:03:53,691 --> 01:03:55,721
Well, not to burn it, but just to heat my CPU.

1065
01:03:56,221 --> 01:03:58,761
Um, so, but so you can charge a fee.

1066
01:03:58,941 --> 01:04:03,111
And I think, um, I think some will experiment with charging a DDoS

1067
01:04:03,251 --> 01:04:04,701
fee, which is similar to Bitcoin.

1068
01:04:04,711 --> 01:04:07,711
You know, the, the fees in Bitcoin are a DDoS protection vector.

1069
01:04:07,711 --> 01:04:09,071
So it's the same concept.

1070
01:04:09,796 --> 01:04:10,076
All right.

1071
01:04:10,076 --> 01:04:12,266
So, so, uh, what's on the roadmap?

1072
01:04:12,306 --> 01:04:14,096
What's going on?

1073
01:04:14,566 --> 01:04:16,036
How does the future look like?

1074
01:04:16,206 --> 01:04:18,626
What will you be working on the next five years?

1075
01:04:18,626 --> 01:04:20,636
And where do you see FedeMint going?

1076
01:04:20,906 --> 01:04:29,456
um, I, that's, uh, that's actually, this is, this is the most, uh, fun phase.

1077
01:04:29,756 --> 01:04:38,966
Um, up until now, um, we, we had a hypothesis and we had some early feedback,

1078
01:04:38,996 --> 01:04:43,546
but a lot of it was based on, um, a.

1079
01:04:44,216 --> 01:04:50,096
A hypothesis and fear, a theory as to what we thought people needed and, and

1080
01:04:50,096 --> 01:04:55,426
we felt that freedom technology had got to a stage where they were good enough

1081
01:04:55,486 --> 01:04:57,416
to provide this combined experience.

1082
01:04:57,826 --> 01:04:58,876
And that was a hypothesis.

1083
01:04:58,876 --> 01:05:01,386
And we think we've got early validation, but we built that.

1084
01:05:01,776 --> 01:05:03,366
Now it's life.

1085
01:05:04,296 --> 01:05:08,246
And now it's the, it's the fun, but it's also the scary bit because

1086
01:05:08,246 --> 01:05:12,936
we now actually see people using it and we test all our hypothesis.

1087
01:05:12,996 --> 01:05:19,456
And this is the point where you have to be very detail oriented, very much

1088
01:05:19,456 --> 01:05:24,626
listening to the users and listening to what they say and whatever they say.

1089
01:05:24,716 --> 01:05:27,746
We, we cannot ignore if, if, if there are.

1090
01:05:28,521 --> 01:05:30,911
Parts of our hypothesis that are incorrect, we have

1091
01:05:30,911 --> 01:05:32,771
to adjust to support that.

1092
01:05:32,771 --> 01:05:36,531
So it's going to be a lot of listening and we've already got

1093
01:05:36,541 --> 01:05:38,731
hundreds of requests for feedback.

1094
01:05:39,361 --> 01:05:44,901
Um, and then working to rectify, um, or deal with the questions

1095
01:05:44,901 --> 01:05:47,571
or feedback they've given us or the suggestions they've given us.

1096
01:05:47,911 --> 01:05:51,551
Um, and, and we're going to continue to iterate and then we bring it back

1097
01:05:51,551 --> 01:05:53,561
out to users and see what they think.

1098
01:05:53,961 --> 01:05:55,271
And we keep in that loop.

1099
01:05:55,331 --> 01:05:57,681
This is the market product fit loop until.

1100
01:05:58,186 --> 01:06:03,126
The product that we produce, um, fits the requirements of the, of the market.

1101
01:06:03,606 --> 01:06:07,766
Now, again, I, I'm hoping that takes six months or less, just like I hoped

1102
01:06:07,796 --> 01:06:09,356
it took six months or less to do.

1103
01:06:09,776 --> 01:06:13,396
Um, to for the initialization phase, but it might take less.

1104
01:06:13,406 --> 01:06:16,796
It might take a bit more, um, but it's, it's fun.

1105
01:06:16,816 --> 01:06:20,216
And, and that's the next phase.

1106
01:06:21,196 --> 01:06:22,576
After that, we then go into the growth phase.

1107
01:06:22,576 --> 01:06:25,546
Once we know we've got something that's repeatable, that really.

1108
01:06:26,006 --> 01:06:30,726
This sticky is really at the quality level that users need for it to be

1109
01:06:30,726 --> 01:06:33,416
used a daily part of their, their life.

1110
01:06:33,746 --> 01:06:38,576
We'll then go into growth phase and that's where we'll really, you know, um, pull

1111
01:06:38,576 --> 01:06:44,086
down, put our pedal to the metal and, and just repeat, repeat, repeat until.

1112
01:06:44,471 --> 01:06:46,781
You know, billions of people are using this around the world,

1113
01:06:47,131 --> 01:06:49,031
but that, that's phase three.

1114
01:06:49,051 --> 01:06:51,271
And I'm, I'm very focused on this phase.

1115
01:06:51,271 --> 01:06:52,941
You don't want to rush into phase three.

1116
01:06:53,211 --> 01:06:59,961
We're not going to rush to grow the numbers, um, until we are very sure that

1117
01:06:59,961 --> 01:07:03,901
we've got something that's really slick, really reliable, and where we're meeting

1118
01:07:03,901 --> 01:07:07,671
a clear demonstrable demand consistently.

1119
01:07:08,511 --> 01:07:11,321
And that, and that's the next stage that we call that, that process

1120
01:07:11,321 --> 01:07:12,781
is called human centered design.

1121
01:07:13,196 --> 01:07:17,386
So it's not focused on this is my app, this is what I want, and I'm going to keep

1122
01:07:17,386 --> 01:07:19,986
trying to make you agree with what I want.

1123
01:07:20,016 --> 01:07:22,846
It's, this is, this is what we've built.

1124
01:07:23,716 --> 01:07:27,086
This is our first stab at it, but we're going to keep iterating

1125
01:07:27,106 --> 01:07:30,126
until it serves your need properly.

1126
01:07:30,146 --> 01:07:33,826
And that might require some, this is the, this is what makes this one

1127
01:07:33,866 --> 01:07:37,366
very hard because it requires a very different mindset to the phase one.

1128
01:07:37,376 --> 01:07:42,471
Phase one is like We can do everything and the impossible is possible

1129
01:07:42,471 --> 01:07:46,971
and there's no, the phase two is a really, really being pragmatic.

1130
01:07:47,696 --> 01:07:52,196
Or very self critical and being very open to killing your darlings,

1131
01:07:52,196 --> 01:07:56,696
as the saying goes, you know, and saying this is not working or, or

1132
01:07:56,696 --> 01:07:58,146
there's some fundamental issue.

1133
01:07:58,266 --> 01:08:01,696
I mean, I don't think this will be the case at this stage, but if, if

1134
01:08:01,696 --> 01:08:04,946
the feedback was from our market that we need to make some fundamental

1135
01:08:04,946 --> 01:08:07,806
changes that would mean that 80 percent of the code we built has to be

1136
01:08:07,806 --> 01:08:08,926
thrown away and have to start again.

1137
01:08:09,526 --> 01:08:11,116
Well, that's what we're being told.

1138
01:08:11,156 --> 01:08:15,006
I, I, we've, we've got far enough to think that's highly unlikely.

1139
01:08:15,451 --> 01:08:20,161
But, um, um, cause most of the feedback, like some of the big pieces

1140
01:08:20,161 --> 01:08:22,901
of feedback cause how can we make it easier to set up federations?

1141
01:08:22,911 --> 01:08:25,981
So that's a really good sign because lots of people said there's only going

1142
01:08:25,981 --> 01:08:28,871
to be a demand for like free federations and it's going to be very centralized.

1143
01:08:28,911 --> 01:08:33,591
Well, like I, I very, I'll put it a very large percentage.

1144
01:08:33,631 --> 01:08:34,141
I don't want to give it.

1145
01:08:34,151 --> 01:08:37,011
These are the very large percentage of all our queries so far have been,

1146
01:08:37,061 --> 01:08:38,391
how can I set my own federation up?

1147
01:08:38,631 --> 01:08:41,451
So even based on those queries, there's not going to be free.

1148
01:08:41,541 --> 01:08:42,781
You know, I can put it that way.

1149
01:08:42,801 --> 01:08:47,561
Super quick question on that, I guess, uh, is it the Fetiman software?

1150
01:08:47,561 --> 01:08:51,261
Is it on, for example, the note in a box, uh, solutions,

1151
01:08:51,261 --> 01:08:52,541
the umbrellas, start nines, et

1152
01:08:52,931 --> 01:08:54,861
Well, that's part of the feedback that we're getting.

1153
01:08:54,861 --> 01:08:58,491
For example, it's like, can, um, can we set it up?

1154
01:08:58,831 --> 01:09:01,281
Can you integrate with Umbro?

1155
01:09:01,281 --> 01:09:02,070
Can you integrate with Start9?

1156
01:09:02,070 --> 01:09:02,931
Can you integrate with RastyBlitz?

1157
01:09:03,321 --> 01:09:06,041
Can it, can I, can you make it simpler to set up?

1158
01:09:06,361 --> 01:09:10,471
So, I think, um, a lot of that's done by the FediMint team.

1159
01:09:10,481 --> 01:09:13,311
Because remember, FediMint is an OpusSource project versus a

1160
01:09:13,311 --> 01:09:13,801
different OpusSource project.

1161
01:09:13,801 --> 01:09:16,726
Uh, well, we're not OpusSource here, we're SourceAvailable, but At some

1162
01:09:16,726 --> 01:09:18,706
point in the future, it will be two different open source projects.

1163
01:09:18,946 --> 01:09:22,826
However, we are using them as the bedrock, because if you want to

1164
01:09:22,826 --> 01:09:27,401
custody significant amounts of value We know that you want to go multisig.

1165
01:09:27,521 --> 01:09:32,051
Multisig for significant amounts of value is the best standard, so, so we, we, and,

1166
01:09:32,081 --> 01:09:36,261
and also you want privacy, so then privacy and multisig, that's FedEvent, basically.

1167
01:09:36,581 --> 01:09:40,881
Um, but, um, um, on the FedE side, we can do a lot as well.

1168
01:09:40,911 --> 01:09:44,001
So we can provide, even though it's open source software, we

1169
01:09:44,001 --> 01:09:45,271
can take it and provide it.

1170
01:09:45,691 --> 01:09:50,711
Um, again, it will be open source, but tools to help you build it really

1171
01:09:50,711 --> 01:09:56,181
easily or put efforts to integrate with people like Umbrell and Start9.

1172
01:09:56,541 --> 01:10:01,361
Um, we've already had an integration with an organization called Clover, um,

1173
01:10:01,361 --> 01:10:05,361
which we were, which we've been working on, and you're going to see more on that.

1174
01:10:05,651 --> 01:10:08,541
But from our point of view, that's a lot of where the work is.

1175
01:10:08,741 --> 01:10:12,421
Also you want to connect this to the internet, um, to, to the, not the

1176
01:10:12,421 --> 01:10:13,721
internet, to the Lightning Network.

1177
01:10:13,741 --> 01:10:14,111
Sorry.

1178
01:10:16,061 --> 01:10:19,311
And connected to the Lightning Network and maintaining a

1179
01:10:19,311 --> 01:10:21,091
reliable connection is not easy.

1180
01:10:21,131 --> 01:10:24,831
It's, it's, it's, it, it can be complicated for people,

1181
01:10:25,021 --> 01:10:26,521
especially managing liquidity.

1182
01:10:26,521 --> 01:10:29,801
And now again, over time, I could get easier, but right now it's not easy.

1183
01:10:30,091 --> 01:10:34,886
There are organizations like, Breeze and others who make that easy.

1184
01:10:34,966 --> 01:10:39,776
Um, and you just saw an announcement from Erik, where they've already started, um,

1185
01:10:39,806 --> 01:10:46,146
showing connectivity and support for LDK, which is this cross, um, LSP standard.

1186
01:10:46,536 --> 01:10:52,006
So, again, we at Fedi can provide tools for FediMint, or people who are using

1187
01:10:52,006 --> 01:10:56,506
FediMint, whether it's with Fedi or someone else, that make it really easy.

1188
01:10:56,926 --> 01:11:00,636
And again, our aim is one click, and you have a connection.

1189
01:11:01,046 --> 01:11:08,736
You can set up your own lightning node that's set up in a relatively good way,

1190
01:11:08,736 --> 01:11:11,436
so it'd be relatively reliable, but you don't have to manage it yourself.

1191
01:11:11,881 --> 01:11:18,191
Or, um, you can connect to one of these LSP's and for a fee, they'll just

1192
01:11:18,191 --> 01:11:22,121
handle all the light and management, but you're still in a trust minimized way.

1193
01:11:22,411 --> 01:11:25,891
So there's, there's a, but, but given all the feedback we're getting,

1194
01:11:25,911 --> 01:11:28,301
it's not, this is completely wrong.

1195
01:11:28,761 --> 01:11:31,311
You need to go back to the drawing board, it's all, okay, I get

1196
01:11:31,311 --> 01:11:32,421
it, but you need to go further.

1197
01:11:32,421 --> 01:11:33,431
You need to integrate with more.

1198
01:11:33,431 --> 01:11:34,531
You need to make it easier.

1199
01:11:34,581 --> 01:11:37,801
So, so I, so that's a good sign that we're on the right track.

1200
01:11:39,066 --> 01:11:39,376
Yeah.

1201
01:11:39,376 --> 01:11:43,566
So, so what, what about this date when you go open source?

1202
01:11:43,566 --> 01:11:47,976
Is that, is that public or, or when you, when you have to go

1203
01:11:47,976 --> 01:11:49,956
open source, it might be then or

1204
01:11:50,116 --> 01:11:53,356
in the, it's, it's, it's memorializing the business source license.

1205
01:11:53,356 --> 01:11:56,926
In fact, um, we memorialized it.

1206
01:11:56,926 --> 01:12:00,466
We actually have this memo memorializing when it happened.

1207
01:12:00,886 --> 01:12:05,086
Um, when we launched Freddy, we, we did this thing on the Bitcoin block.

1208
01:12:05,086 --> 01:12:05,656
You can see it.

1209
01:12:05,656 --> 01:12:07,936
We were established on, on a certain block.

1210
01:12:08,386 --> 01:12:10,516
Um, and, um.

1211
01:12:11,266 --> 01:12:12,436
And we said Fedi is here.

1212
01:12:12,936 --> 01:12:17,466
When we, um, quietly on May the 4th, we also put something that

1213
01:12:17,466 --> 01:12:19,226
said Fedi colon and it was a hash.

1214
01:12:19,556 --> 01:12:22,046
That hash is a hash of a memo.

1215
01:12:22,636 --> 01:12:25,926
And the memo, which is on our, Fedi's got an open source, you can

1216
01:12:25,926 --> 01:12:27,596
see the link and you can verify it.

1217
01:12:27,986 --> 01:12:33,506
Showed that on May the 4th, we, we, um, the code became business source license.

1218
01:12:33,786 --> 01:12:42,616
And by January the 3rd, 2026 or earlier, um, we must go, um, open source.

1219
01:12:42,826 --> 01:12:45,586
And if we were to shut down or to stop development, we

1220
01:12:45,586 --> 01:12:47,556
will instantly go open source.

1221
01:12:48,026 --> 01:12:52,266
Um, and so, so that, and we put it in block.

1222
01:12:52,881 --> 01:12:54,061
I tried to find a core block.

1223
01:12:54,061 --> 01:12:57,481
So it was block 8, 42069.

1224
01:12:57,481 --> 01:13:00,061
It was actually was the block that was the core block as well.

1225
01:13:00,481 --> 01:13:04,501
So, um, um, and so yeah, it's, it's there.

1226
01:13:04,531 --> 01:13:07,421
And, uh, um, that's the date.

1227
01:13:07,481 --> 01:13:10,351
We, we cannot go open source later than that.

1228
01:13:10,431 --> 01:13:13,311
And we may very well go open source a lot earlier than that.

1229
01:13:14,224 --> 01:13:19,084
Hey Obi, I think we could keep on grilling you on this and that little detail,

1230
01:13:19,084 --> 01:13:23,644
but this has been really enlightening, fantastic to see how far this has come,

1231
01:13:23,654 --> 01:13:28,274
even since our last conversation back in October, and yeah, just looking forward

1232
01:13:28,274 --> 01:13:32,354
to everything you guys are doing, and I guess just as a last thing, people

1233
01:13:32,354 --> 01:13:37,999
can now grab the Fedi app and Public federations are available to start to try

1234
01:13:38,119 --> 01:13:43,539
federations and there are, and you can set up your own federation and

1235
01:13:43,539 --> 01:13:46,699
we are going to be, um, working.

1236
01:13:47,039 --> 01:13:50,809
There's a lot, I don't like to talk too much about what's coming in future

1237
01:13:51,249 --> 01:13:55,009
because we just work on everything in order of customer demands.

1238
01:13:55,009 --> 01:13:58,349
So if customer demand comes in, that changes the order, but we're working

1239
01:13:58,349 --> 01:14:03,689
really hard to make it, um, It's already easy for if you're quite technical, um,

1240
01:14:03,699 --> 01:14:06,559
but we're going to make it easier and easier to set up a federation, so keep

1241
01:14:06,809 --> 01:14:10,399
looking out because that's a very common request to set up a federation yourself,

1242
01:14:10,589 --> 01:14:15,489
and we want to see what people do with it, um, create Fedi mods, um, create

1243
01:14:15,499 --> 01:14:21,989
federations, um, use it, give us feedback, and we will continue to work on making

1244
01:14:21,989 --> 01:14:27,744
an incredible, Open source interface portal to this freedom technology world.

1245
01:14:28,329 --> 01:14:29,399
Absolutely fantastic.

1246
01:14:29,419 --> 01:14:32,959
We'll need to keep on having these conversations regularly, get updates

1247
01:14:32,969 --> 01:14:36,689
because always fantastic to hear about this and good luck moving

1248
01:14:36,689 --> 01:14:42,529
forward and I think we'll be trying some FETI stuff in our futures here.

1249
01:14:42,529 --> 01:14:45,479
Lots of cool things have come out of Nostriga and Baltic.

1250
01:14:45,759 --> 01:14:46,419
Honey Badger by

1251
01:14:46,574 --> 01:14:47,874
I'm exciting to see that.

1252
01:14:47,934 --> 01:14:49,644
Yeah, it's a really exciting time.

1253
01:14:50,179 --> 01:14:52,839
And anywhere else you want to direct our listeners and viewers.

1254
01:14:53,434 --> 01:14:57,024
So for Fedi, that's probably the best place because everything, that's a

1255
01:14:57,024 --> 01:14:58,704
jumping off ground for everything else.

1256
01:14:58,754 --> 01:15:01,934
And that's Fedi, F E D I dot X, Y, Z.

1257
01:15:03,209 --> 01:15:03,819
Fantastic.

1258
01:15:04,614 --> 01:15:09,444
One of the cooler things that came out in Nostriga and Honeybadger was of course,

1259
01:15:09,874 --> 01:15:13,904
yes, the inverse of clown world, our new book, and we want to give you one.

1260
01:15:13,904 --> 01:15:19,164
So, and if you're not given one during this weekend, um, you'll

1261
01:15:19,164 --> 01:15:20,834
find it on bitcoininfinitystore.

1262
01:15:20,874 --> 01:15:21,134
com.

1263
01:15:21,264 --> 01:15:21,674
So,

1264
01:15:21,994 --> 01:15:22,714
Thank you very much.

1265
01:15:23,284 --> 01:15:24,944
and we need to sign it for you.

1266
01:15:24,944 --> 01:15:25,476
Yeah,

1267
01:15:25,489 --> 01:15:26,959
Yeah, we'll do that offline.

1268
01:15:26,969 --> 01:15:28,779
But Obi, thank you again.

1269
01:15:28,839 --> 01:15:31,099
And this has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

1270
01:15:31,309 --> 01:15:32,009
Thank you for listening.

1271
01:15:32,374 --> 01:15:32,614
Thanks.