basically if you're any type of company that touches the Lightning Network
directly through a node, then you need to be able to manage that node and
you need to have systems around it.
So that can be anything from seeing which channels you have, how many
payments have gone out or in, you yeah, opening and closing channels,
it can be even just account systems.
So if you have customers that have different balances that you hold for
them, you need to keep track of that.
Um, and.
Torque helps you do a lot of these things.
Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint Show.
The Bitcoin Philosophy Show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn.
Today we're joined by Henrik Skogström, founder of TORQ, formerly LN Capital,
to talk about the Lightning Network.
We learn a lot about how Lightning works, the things Lightning companies need to do
to keep the experience seamless for users, and how TORQ can help with all that.
But before we jump in, I'll quickly cover how you can support the show.
First, you can send us a boost or stream us some sats using a value for
value podcasting app such as Fountain.
If you're listening to this show as a podcast, check it out on Fountain.
You can earn sats from listening and you can support us in all
your other favorite shows.
You can also support us on Geiser with Bitcoin or on Patreon if you
want to get rid of your dirty fiat.
All our links are in the description.
And finally, we want to thank today's sponsors, Amber App, Wasabi Wallet, Orange
Pill App, The Bitcoin Way, and Geyser.
All their information is in the description.
We'll be talking a bit more about them later.
And now, without further ado, here is Henrik Skogström on
the Freedom Footprint show.
Henrik, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show.
Thanks for joining us.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah.
Welcome Hendrik.
I can give a TLDR on, on how we got connected because this is, this is
sort of a in real life connection story via orange pill app, a shout out
so, so, uh, yeah, we, we met at a, uh, we didn't meet, but.
I met somebody who works with your, your company Torque, in a, in a
live event, uh, orange pill app event, uh, in Tampere, Finland.
And, uh, we were at a sauna, party and, uh, And then, uh, yeah, we found out
that there's a connection between, uh, yourself and, uh, and Finland and, uh,
got to talking that it would be, uh, nice to get you on our show and, uh, hear
about everything you're doing with the Lightning Network because we, we have
not had anyone who is a Lightning expert.
In any real respect, come onto the show and talk to us.
So yeah, welcome Henrik, and let's maybe start off with an introduction
to yourself and the work that you do.
Yeah, great.
Uh, again, thanks for having me.
And, uh, yeah, cool connection, uh, through, uh, Yoho there.
Um, yeah, so introduction, uh, of me, I've, I've been working in the
lighting industry since, uh, 2019.
Um, maybe start with, my name is Henrik Skogström, uh, and, uh, we, um, Yeah,
we, at Torque, we're building sort of this, um, management, lightning
management platform for enterprises.
Uh, so we've been really deep into how lightning works and different
implementations for almost two years now.
Uh, and it's been a ton of fun.
So, um, hopefully we can dive into something, uh, some of
the evolution there as well.
yeah, I've been using the Lightning Network since 2019 and I'm just baffled
by how people are so ignorant about it and don't know about it and how awesome it is.
Uh, so, so, but, but as, as I understand it, like most people use
custodial lightning, uh, lightning.
And I'm guilty as charged most of the time myself, uh, because I usually
just use a custodial service and then put it into cold storage later.
Could you give us an explanation of that and how, how the network, what
the network looks like at this point, like how, uh, non custodial is it
and, uh, what are the trade offs?
Yeah, sure.
So, I think it's important to remember when you need true self custody
custody and in what scenarios.
The dream world is that everybody has 100 percent control of absolutely
all their money at all times, right?
Um, but at the same time, if you have a wallet with a hundred dollars in it.
It's not the end of the world if somebody rugs that one.
It's of course bad to have sort of a situation where either a company can rug
you or some hacker can get access to it, but There is this balance to, to reach.
So what we're seeing currently is that there are major providers that are like
Vault of Satoshi and, and these that are custodial that a lot of people are using.
Um, But we're also seeing an increase in, um, self custodial
wallets like Breeze, for example.
Um, and in these cases, they're very often paired with, um, large LSP nodes.
And both of these types of companies and wallets have the effect of...
Gathering up a lot of liquidity in certain nodes, um, and that is
by some seen as centralization.
Um, the reality is more that it's centralization of capacity
or capital to some places, and it's quite natural because if you
have, if you're an individual, you don't need 20, 000 on your node.
Um, but a business or an LSP or wall provider definitely needs more than that.
So that is sort of some of the effect we're seeing.
I
Okay.
So, uh, um, so can you give us a, uh, for, for those of our listeners
who don't know how lightning works, because it's kind of complicated.
Is there a, a quick way of explaining what the lightning network is and how it works?
Yeah, um, so the Lightning Network is a scaling solution for Bitcoin.
So what it, the way it scales Bitcoin is that you do one Bitcoin transaction
to open what we call a channel.
And through that channel, you can send as many transactions as you want.
Basically, what you're doing is just asking the other party and yourself
to update a contract between yourself.
about how much Bitcoin each side has and that contract is basically just a
potential normal Bitcoin transaction.
Um, and since this doesn't have to be broadcast to the world, you can do that as
many times you want, as fast as you want.
Um, and of course don't impact everybody else.
Bitcoin
transactions.
Um, the second effect there is that You can have a challenge with multiple
parties and I can ask somebody, I can send money to somebody I'm not
directly connected to because I can ask different hops or different node
operators that I have a challenge with to relay a transaction through them.
And this, of course, is always done without any form of trust
involved in that transaction.
Uh, so that might not have been as, uh, short and straightforward
as it could be, but that's sort of a very short explanation of what
Lightning is and how it works.
Yeah, don't worry.
I think most of our listeners have some understanding of this stuff.
So, uh, the.
The thing I'm curious about is like, uh, the regulations that are popping up in
different jurisdictions around Bitcoin.
Uh, could you make, like, a legal case for Lightning not being anything but
mathematics, and thereby, like, since, since it doesn't ever have to touch
The base chain, really, you could just call it messages between people.
And maybe, do you know of any anyone that's trying to
lobby a politician or like,
some lawmaker around in these areas?
Because like, to me, you know, money should be under free speech laws
that should like, I do not care what you pay, but you will fight to
the death for your right to pay it.
Um, Because what bitcoins obviously has pointed out to everyone is that money
really is nothing but information.
And money ness is more of an adjective than a noun and all of this philosophical
stuff that we touch on often in this show.
Um, but lightning is a special case.
I mean, you, you could make a good legal case for lightning
transactions, not being transactions at all, but just messages, right?
Yeah, it's a very interesting question, I guess.
So, I talked to some lawyers about this recently, and I think, it
depends on what each country thinks related to money transferring laws.
But I very much agree with the philosophical thought of
it being just communication.
Um, Or language, because yeah, you, you move, like moving money is
essentially saying I value this thing.
Um, I'm no legal expert, but it's, it's something where the power of it is so big
that it should be a fundamental right we have as humans to be able to transact.
Yeah, given that we have such a high degree of, uh, like everything is digital
around us, being able to pay online or digitally is becoming so important
that it should be a basic human right.
And, uh, yeah, lightning is a tool to, to make that possibility because
right now finance is, or payments is a very permission, um, based
system where certain parts of, um, The globe can't access that system.
So yeah, philosophically, that's a really interesting topic.
Henrik.
Yeah, uh, to my knowledge, like, each lightning node does not know, uh,
where the, it knows the, what node the transaction comes from and where it's
going to, but it does not know how long the chain is, and it does not know
how, uh, what the final destination is or where it came from originally.
So, so, uh, How private is a Lightning transaction?
Like, I mean, obviously it's less private if you're using a custodian,
but how private is it if you're doing it properly, so to speak?
So yeah, a custodian will see, of course, who you are, if they're doing KYC, and
they will see who you're sending it to.
If you're not Using a custodian, you're 100 percent generating invoices and
paying invoices on your own device.
That can be sort of something like Breeze or it can be a wallet.
Then it is, um, then it is very private.
The hops in between don't see, as you said, they don't see what the length
are, where the payment is actually going.
If you're the first hop or so the payment is coming from you or not.
Um, and this again has some interesting effects on the legal
systems, uh, for larger financial institutions and different, um, uh,
payment providers, uh, out there.
So, but other than that, other than sort of the routing, this
is like paying with cash again.
It is like you.
You sort of pay with cash right through your mobile or,
or, um, uh, computer screen.
Uh, so in that sense, it's back to a very basic and known element that we have.
All right, so, uh, Lightning is known as a layer two solution to Bitcoin
because layer one is viewed as the, uh, the base chain is viewed as layer one.
I would say that layer zero is the people involved or are the people
involved, uh, that because there's no layer one without, without the people.
So, uh, Is there, is there a layer three coming and what would that be in your, in
your mind with like, what, what problem does it even solve when we already
have lightning, like, is there a layer on top of this coming in the future?
And what would that look like?
I mean, it's, um, at definition, I don't know, like there's applications,
of course, on top of Lightning.
And then we have, uh, I guess layering is the sort of protocols
doing something different.
I mean, um.
Separate assets and something like that could be considered a layer three
where we use Lightning as the transport layer and then we use some other
protocol to have some other meaning to those transactions on top of it.
So that can be considered a layer three to add more functionality that
isn't possible on Lightning itself.
Um, scalability wise.
I don't, yeah, it's, it's not something I think would be adding a third
layer for scalability again, right?
Lightning pretty much solves that.
Okay, so what is, what is torque?
Like, what do you do at torque?
Well, what is the, what is torque?
Yeah, so basically if you're any type of company that touches the Lightning
Network directly through a node, then you need to be able to manage that node
and you need to have systems around it.
So that can be anything from seeing which channels you have, how many
payments have gone out or in, you know.
Um, um, yeah, opening and closing channels, it can be
even just account systems.
So if you have customers that have different balances that you hold for
them, you need to keep track of that.
Um, and all these sort of different aspects of interacting
on the Lightning Network.
and.
Torque helps you do a lot of these things.
I mean, constantly expanding and adding modules to Torque.
But right now, the modules we have is that we help you collect
data about all the traffic and everything going on with your node.
We then help you open and close channels, for example, either
manually or automatically.
We'll let you see all that data, so you can interact and analyze
everything that's going on.
Um, we also have the ability to manage multiple nodes.
And this is important because a lot of the enterprises around, uh, today, they have
multiple nodes for redundancy reasons and for special, um, specializing the traffic.
Um, so for example, you can have, uh, two nodes.
One is mainly sending data or sending transactions out and one
is mainly receiving payments.
And then you have redundancies.
You might have four because you have two of each.
And this sort of increased the entire complexity of the operation, of course.
so Because the complexity is increasing as you add more nodes and you have more
channels, you have more transactions and things going on in your operation,
this gets ever more complex and harder and harder to manage and build.
So what we provide is a platform for operators to work off of so that they
don't have to, um, Uh, build everything from scratch and they can rather build
the systems and the end user experience that their user care about and not
sort of know the management stuff.
you got to remember that, for example, if you're a payment processor or your
wallet, your customers don't care at all about how it works in the background.
They just want a really cool user experience, they want an
API, they want a smooth wallet.
So, there's a limit to what you really want to spend an energy
on building stuff yourself.
So, what we do is we provide a set of modules that help these companies operate.
For example, it allows you to collect data about everything that's happening.
You can, uh, inspect channels, you can, uh, automate, uh, or
manually open and close channels.
Um, you can also manage multiple nodes, and this is especially when
the, um, as the operation grows, you can see that you have, um, For
example, um, two or four nodes.
And the reason for this is that the traffic is so big that you want to
specialize the node activity and you want to have redundancy in your operation.
So in short, you can use Torque to simplify and use Torque instead of
building your own tooling and simplify your organization in that way.
All right.
Luke, is there anything on your mind?
Well, sure.
Yeah.
So, so I think, um, lightning from the perspective of, yeah.
What it actually does for Bitcoin, I think this is a, this is a bit of a deep thing
because, uh, we, we tend to try to avoid any mention of shitcoins here on the show,
and I'm not going to mention any by name, but the general idea is that there is so
called quote unquote blockchain technology that can beat Bitcoin in the future.
Specifically the level of fast payments and that's kind of the idea here and
so um, maybe something about um, what I'm trying to get at here is do you
have any, any feelings on what is the real value of lightning to bitcoin?
Is it working?
Is it, is it actually helping bitcoin to do what everyone hopes it will do?
Yeah, definitely.
And I've done large payments on Lightning as well.
And especially for something that we use payments for every day, um,
up to a thousand dollars, there's everything, regardless of self
hosted or not works really well.
Um, the, the interesting thing there versus a lot of other coins where
they're talking about transaction volume and speed and all that is that
Lightning settles less than a second.
And.
The, the way it scales is, uh.
is in a way that's super efficient.
So when you look at a lot of other coins, what they're talking
about is that they, um, they increase the number of transactions
possible, um, by a few methods.
One is just increasing the, the speed of the, the block creation, or they
just, uh, increase the block size.
And when you think about that, it It is a solution where they then just
not talk about what happens over time.
There's a lot of different, um, problems that arise from that.
One is just that the block size, um, creates an intense, insanely
large, um, um, blockchain over time.
And that's where I think we in Bitcoin and in Lightning is much more honest about
what are the challenges in Lightning today and what are, how does it scale, um, in
what areas do we need to improve, uh, and all of these things, uh, rather than
just saying, okay, we, we have sold it.
Everything is fantastic.
Uh, it will work forever.
Um, we address sort of these problems and, and work on them.
Okay, we have some big news.
We have a new lead sponsor, AmberApp.
They're the number one exchange in the Southern Hemisphere.
They're rated for the best customer service around and
their global launch is coming.
But the reason we're partnering with AmberApp is because of the people.
If you haven't listened to our episode with Izzy, CEO of AmberApp,
you really should go check it out.
You'll see why it made perfect sense to partner with Izzy and AmberApp.
That's it.
All I'll say for now, you really have to check it out for yourself.
They have loads of great features coming that we're excited to share
with you when the time comes, but for now, just check out the episode,
check out their website, Ampr.
app.
You can see for yourself, why we're thrilled to bring Ampr.
app on as our lead sponsor and partner.
So go check it out.
Next up WasabiWallet.
The privacy by default, open source, non custodial Bitcoin
wallet with CoinJoin built in.
It's the easy to use, comprehensive, affordable way to make your coins private.
And the best part is, they've been making huge improvements to the app.
They're really focusing on the user experience, adding advanced
features for power users, they just keep getting better.
You send your coins to your Wasabi wallet, and they get combined with loads of
other coins using the Wabi Sabi protocol, so they're private on the other end.
Your tracks are covered so you can work on expanding your Freedom Footprint
without worrying about your privacy.
So, check out wasabiwallet.
io and download Wasabi today.
So how did you discover Bitcoin?
Like what was your orange pilling journey?
Like when, when did you get orange pilled and how?
Yeah, it's interesting.
I, I went through a route I think a lot of Bitcoins do with sort of the Bitcoin route
where, um, I, I got into it, um, basically because I was interested in currency
trading originally and discovered that maybe there's a interesting way to trade.
And make money, uh, through arbitrage or momentum trading, uh, with, uh, bots.
So I started playing around with that, a ton of different coins and got swept
up in all that in 2017 especially.
And, uh, went through the entire crash.
And I think there's a small percentage each time who then's like what happened
and realize that, oh, I should just bin at Bitcoin the entire time and get into that.
And then I started really learning how Bitcoin converts, how.
When I discovered Lightning, it was like, okay, game over.
The other stuff is just BS.
Uh, let's dive into this.
Uh, and I've been working, um, really diving into Lightning after that.
Um, where is, where are you on the, uh, sound money journey, like on,
on the ethos of Bitcoin journey and the like, uh, on the, on the more
philosophical prax logical side?
Like what, what have you views on, uh, hyper colonization, for instance?
Do you think that's a likely scenario?
And, uh, if so, when and what does, what does it mean to you?
Yeah, it's a very interesting topic.
I think, I think I might be a bit unconventional Bitcoiner in that area.
I think.
If we see hyperbitcoinization in next year, then the world is in so much
trouble that it's time to get your, your shotgun and guard your door.
And the reason is
that the case?
Uh, if, if we're, if we don't get into hyper ization also though,
yeah, I think there's going to be suffering either way.
That's my point.
I think where, um, We're in such a trouble, we're in such big trouble
with the debt that we're in that there is no smooth way out of it.
So essentially, if you stop all lending, and you go into hyperbitcoinization,
and everybody just uses that, we're quickly into a situation where, um,
so if everybody switches over to, um, to Bitcoin today, we're getting into a
situation where I think the economy is going to go through a heavy, heavy crash.
So even the housing market, for example, so I hope we transition
there a bit more peacefully.
yeah, you're, uh, I'm guessing your, your thoughts and your, um,
idea on it is, is a bit different.
And this is something I love to discuss.
The different points of view in this, and I'm guessing that's what you've
been doing a lot on the show so far.
Yeah.
Well, we're, we're, we're sort of on the philosophical side.
I mean, we, we try to envision what, what, what this means and what it
is and, uh, where, where the vectors are pointing and, uh, I always like
to, to like, to try to extrapolate, extrapolate the, uh, thought vector as
far ahead into the future and possible as possible and see, see where I end up.
And it's, it's kind of hard to see anything but hyper ization happening
given that everything else is crashing.
Um, I mean, where else?
Are the money supposed to go?
I just don't see how in a, in a hyper interneted world that the, the, the
money could go anywhere else than Bitcoin because it's the only stable thing left.
Yeah.
And that's a, that's a very good point.
Um, most likely it becomes, um, over time it becomes the base,
uh, value where we store value and perhaps also settle value across,
uh, countries and larger operations.
Um, definitely.
Um, I guess it depends a bit on what, what you mean with hyperbitcoinization is if
absolutely every other currency becomes Bitcoin and we only transact in Bitcoin,
uh, and we eliminate all debt, that is, um, that is a different scenarios scenario
than, for example, we don't limit debt and we, um, we have some other, uh, credit
based systems around things, uh, to, um, to use as, um, um, Uh, in some cases,
efficiency gains, but, um, yeah, it's, it's just, I feel like the world is just
so far out of balance today that how that is used around the world is quite crazy.
Um, but then again, I'm not an economic,
no, uh, I mean, um, Uh, there can still be debt on a, on a
Bitcoin standard, of course.
Uh, it's just that the interest rates will better reflect what the lender and
the, and the receiver actually agree upon.
And we won't have these artificial things.
I mean, there's, there's always a market for lower interest rates.
I mean, It's basically a bet on, on the future, like, it's better to
have money now than in the future.
So, so that's where interest comes from.
It's just that, and the free market should be able to, to figure out
the correct interest rate by itself.
It's just that it's been so manipulated at this point that it's not.
It's just weird, like negative interest rates, for instance, it should make
everyone like buy that shotgun and hide up in a cabin somewhere or leave the country
because it's, it's, uh, just not possible.
Uh, that word in itself, in my mind, should, should make people
really scared because that's like the ultimate testament to that.
You're being played.
You're, you're being, you're, you're caught in a system that is using you.
yeah, it's, um, it's definitely not as straightforward anymore as it
was, uh, once, uh, once upon a time.
Yeah, I, I think Bitcoin is a tool that can be used for a lot of good, it can be
used in, uh, to fix a lot of systems, but there's another side of it, which I think
a lot of Bitcoiners don't talk too much about, and that basically is the power
of money in the, in the direct sense, uh, where if you have a lot of money, even
if you have a lot of Bitcoin, you can use that as a tool to influence others to do
things they basically don't want to do.
Um, so of course, just doing work is one thing, but you mostly are happy
to do work in order to get paid.
But there's situation where you can pressure people to the point
where, yeah, they're still working.
They're still getting a salary.
But that's the only option they have and the salary is not enough to live off.
We don't really get rid of that problem still with Bitcoin.
There's still going to be massive, massive, um, difference in, um,
uh, in income around the world and, and power through that.
And I think that's a problem that we don't address with Bitcoin and that we
should be very aware of both in society today and in the future Bitcoin world.
So, how is the climate at TORC?
Like, do you discuss these philosophical stuff in the office, or
wherever, if you even have an office?
I guess you're mostly online, but do you discuss these things,
or like, what's going on there?
Yeah, um, we, we do once in a while, but we're also very tech focused,
uh, and love sort of diving into how Lightning works and what it does.
Um, but we certainly discuss it once in a while.
Um, but yeah, we don't have a, a office.
We're working completely remote, um, which changes the dynamic a bit, I guess.
Yeah, from your accent, you're, you're from, uh, the space cat planet, right?
Like, uh, but, but you're not an astronaut.
So, so, uh, it must be Norway.
Yeah, definitely.
One of the guys in the team, they usually have like a space background.
So bit in space.
There you go.
How is everything going in Norway, by the way, if that's
where you're actually based?
Because I mean, you can't actually tell by where someone is from
originally where they actually are.
But anyway,
Yeah, no, I, uh, I'm born and raised in Oslo and still live in Oslo.
So I never got out anywhere, I guess.
Traveled a bit though.
So that's good.
But, uh, um, here, uh, I mean, that's, that's one of the things where I'm.
not too interested in, I guess, in the politics, uh, in Norway and how things
are evolving there and a bit of that is that it's so stable, so it might be very
dark clouds on the horizon, but for, I guess, most people living in Norway,
the so Economic situation is, is quite stable, uh, prices are, of course, going
up, uh, there is inflation, um, there is, of course, one of the only ways to
get out of the, the inflation we are in is that the regular people suffer.
And I think people are starting to notice that, that they have less
money, prices on everything is going up, especially the stuff that...
isn't in the inflation numbers, like just groceries, right?
Um, so, um, it's going to be interesting in the next few
years when this sort of starts to stress the economy more and more.
Yeah, the same thing is happening in Sweden, where the...
The both the Kronos are losing value fast and it's pretty sad to see because
most of the populations don't seem to realize what's going on, which is often
the case when inflation hits hard.
No one seems to be able to pierce the veil and see what's going on.
But you know, the pay no attention to the men behind the curtain type thing.
Uh, they're waving with one hand to make you not focus on the other.
Um, do, do you know our friend Rune Østgaard by, by any chance?
Another Norwegian, uh, recently came out with a book called Fraud Coin.
Ah, yeah, yeah, I listened to his presentation on one
of the local, um, meetups.
Um, that was, that was great.
Yeah, he has some great takes on, uh, on, uh, the situation in Norway
and Norwegian politics is, uh, very active on Twitter and, uh, everyone
should follow Rune, he's great.
an aggressive Trønders separatist, which is interesting, but he's a fun guy.
An aggressive what?
He's advocated for the independence of Trøndelag.
I don't, I don't know how serious he's actually being, but yeah.
Yeah, I think that's a bit, um, humor in there.
Yeah, uh, then again, um, it's the separation, the separation of
money and state is the separation of everyone and state in the end.
So like, so, so, uh, the smaller, the better.
Like, uh, As long as we can still trade between the cantons,
uh, we're fine, I guess.
Every single farm out there is by zone.
There's balance in these things again, I think, but it's, um, it's interesting
to see, uh, that effect in, in the difference between the U S and Norway and,
um, different how the starting point is.
And I think the, um, the effect that you talked about earlier, people not
noticing, I think this is something that's a bit scary for Norway and, uh,
all countries basically is that some of these effects are, they're coming
over time and they're quite subtle.
They're hard to understand.
And I think a lot of people are getting more and more frustrated.
Because they feel like they're getting screwed in some way.
They don't know the source of it and they start to blame everything
around them in different directions and just frustration, uh, increases.
Um, I think this is a bit behind the political, um, climate in, in the US.
Uh, I'm not into politics, uh, the US, uh, at a level where I should discuss this,
but it feels a bit like they're so much further ahead in that frustration than
many other countries are at this point.
Yeah, uh, given the video clips we see on social media over here
about, uh, grocery prices being completely bonkers over there.
But, uh, yeah, we're, we're headed, we're on the same path.
And, uh, yeah, people should know this.
Inflation is not a natural thing.
It, it comes from some people in society being allowed to
counterfeit money and others, while others don't have that privilege.
That's where it comes from.
That's the only reason that prices are going up and not down.
And inflation is wage deflation.
So what it does is just making everyone poorer over time.
You, you're not getting a 5% raise a year, you're, you're, you're losing 5%
per year because the inflation is 10%.
So, like, and, and the real inflation is even higher than that because they,
in this C P I basket, they don't, they don't take account for house, house
prices and the stock market and so on.
So, uh, it's, it's just a complete joke in the end.
And the joke on you.
So, get out, get some
yeah, I mean,
brush your
yeah, yeah, yeah, actually, it's, uh, it's a really good
argument to get into Bitcoin.
I guess that's why everybody's talking about it.
Um, and also like at the end of the day, it's the people who don't have
an option and are just wage, um, Uh, getting a wage paycheck, those are
the guys who are suffering in order to end massively increasing inflation,
which, uh, we are in a, in a situation where you have a lot higher inflation
than normal all around the world.
Um, so yeah, it's, I think my, uh, outlook on that is a bit
dark and pessimistic, I guess.
Normal people are going to suffer.
The show is also sponsored by Orange Pill App, the Bitcoin only social network where
you can stack friends who stack sats.
You can connect with your favorite Bitcoiners on the app, make local
connections, and even connect with Bitcoiners around the world.
You can see what's going on in your area and organize and attend local events.
I've been to multiple events organized on Orange Pill App and they brought
Bitcoiners together from all over.
And now, with group chat, it's easier than ever to stay in touch
with all your Bitcoin friends.
The best part is you know it's high signal.
There's no spam on OrangePillApp because everyone pays to be there.
So download OrangePillApp on Apple or Android and start building
your local network of Bitcoiners.
Next up, The Bitcoin Way.
Their mission is to onboard, educate, and remove barriers to
taking self custody of your bitcoin.
They cover everything from cold wallets to nodes, no KYC bitcoin purchases,
inheritance planning, payments, and more.
Whether you're new to bitcoin or you're an experienced bitcoiner looking to
expand your freedom footprint, Or you know someone who this sounds perfect for?
The Bitcoin Way has something for you.
They have a skilled team, well versed in the Bitcoin space, and their goal is to
make all the complexities of Bitcoin as straightforward as possible for everyone.
And the best part is you can get started with a free 30
minute call with their team.
Go to thebitcoinway.
com slash contact for more info.
Our newest sponsor is Geyser.
They are the portal to the creator economy on Bitcoin.
On Geyser, creators can monetize their work through their communities
in a social and engaging way.
And supporters can send sats to their favorite projects.
Geyser has also recently integrated with Zapps and Podcasting 2.
0.
So every Zapp sent to a Geyser address shows up on the Geyser page.
We have a Geyser fund ourselves.
It's the best way to support our show directly with Bitcoin.
So whether you're a creator or a supporter, check out geyser at geyser.
fund today.
How about remittances?
Is that a, uh, like, Lightning is always, uh, um, quite often, uh, advertised
as being the, the, the real killer app of Lightning being remittances
between countries, like, um, or at least that's a, a major use case.
And I don't know how much of the network you actually monitor at TORC and like
what you, what you see and what you don't see, but like, do you think there's,
there are remittances being sent from Norway, for instance, to wherever refugees
come from, like Syria and other places?
Do you think there's any of that going on?
So, um, that's also a distinction in, in Troy Cooper.
The tooling we're building is focused on the operator operating,
uh, operating their node.
So they're actually not sending any data to us, and we're not
analyzing either private data or public data, so we can't see these,
uh, patterns directly in any way.
All we can do is analyze the public, um, Uh, graph, the lightning graph,
which means which channels, which nodes have chance with who, where
liquidity is allocated and which channels are closing and opening.
I mean, do you think there's that there are remittances sent by a
lightning from the Scandinavian countries to like Ukraine and Syria
and places like that at this moment?
Or do you think that's just a fantasy thing at this point?
I'm not sure in that direction.
I know that lightning has huge benefits in countries where remittances are very,
very expensive or slow, or where large parts of population don't have access to
banking, um, digitally or even close by.
Uh, some people have to travel quite a distance in order to reach a place that
can help them, like Western Union, that can help them transact, uh, or get, um,
money abroad or, uh, send money abroad.
Um, then they additionally take a 10 percent charge or even much higher
sometimes, uh, on their transaction.
Um, and in those cases, Lightning has a huge benefit and is
being used, uh, quite a bit.
Um, so I think we, we need to see more of it and we need to see
a dynamic where there are more.
People exchanging directly.
We need more apps that help people exchange in and out of their native
currency very quickly in order to see that effect in that use case.
Because for a lot of these people, they can't risk being in Bitcoin right now.
They can't just instantly switch to just using Bitcoin because
they have to live in a world where other people aren't using it.
So there is a bit of cold start problem with Bitcoin in a lot of places.
This is such a, uh, a sad part because, uh, yeah, it's like I, I, um, I see a, a
bitcoin, a t m in a mall, for instance.
Uh, and I see isn't this wonderful that you can just, uh, go there and get some,
uh, euros, k y c free from a machine?
Uh, But when you think one step further about that machine, it's, it's only
a matter of time till all the vendors inside the mall realize that people don't
even have to go through the machine.
They could just accept Bitcoin payments directly.
And, uh, I guess it's the same with remittances that people think
that they need to exchange the Bitcoin for some local shitcoin,
but when really they don't.
They don't have to do that.
They could just start this underground economy in their own circles.
And that shows you the importance of orange pilling the people around your
community to make this happen locally.
It's not going to happen by itself.
Well, it is, but it's going to go a lot faster when people
talk to one another about it.
Yeah, I also think like, as the size of the market cap of Bitcoin
grows, we see that stabilize.
We see also during the winter that the value of Bitcoins stabilize quite a bit.
They have some of the sudden moves once in a while, but that helps in general, people
just staying within the Bitcoin currency.
But of course, I think having for a lot of merchants having that option where
they don't even think about them using Bitcoin for quite some time, I think
can actually be a benefit because then people slowly transition into Bitcoin.
And we managed to bring the whole world on board instead of creating this sort
of almost division where people are like, we're only going to use Bitcoin and
others like we're never going to touch it.
That's not the ideal situation.
We should have this transition where.
The people who only want to use Bitcoin can actually use it everywhere, regardless
of other people adopting it or not.
And that way we get much more natural adoption, I think.
Um, so I'm always torn between this sort of idealistic thinking and ideal world
and, and trying to think about how.
Perhaps adoption can happen, and I think we as Bitcoiners have to compromise a
bit with the rest of the world in terms of driving adoption without compromising
on how Bitcoin works and how we're, where we're going to end up in the end.
Yeah, to me, this is definitely a transition phase where these solutions
between all the currencies are happening, because it's sort of like those stationary
computers that had two DVD slots, one for burning a DVD and one for reading one.
And you could just copy movies that way.
When the data is all there, you can just send it to someone.
And like, it's, uh, maybe that's a bad analogy, but, but there are lots of
examples of, uh, of this, like phone companies trying to hinder IP telephony
and, and stuff like that, like, uh, uh, sooner or later people will realize
that the, uh, the network is the network and you don't need the other
networks for the network to function.
Exactly, yeah.
I mean, it's, um, it's always a mix between technology limitations in
technology and limitations in what people understand and can adopt.
Um, I think Bitcoin has a bigger problem with, um, with how merchants and how
people relate and think about it.
And I think we need companies who think much more about the commerce
side than perhaps the ideal state of people holding Bitcoin in their wallet.
I think the ideal solution for adoption is the case where I can go with my app
of choice and pay for whatever in a different country by just scanning a QR
code or tapping the phone to whatever terminal that already exists in that shop.
Um, and when I do that, it exchanges from my Norwegian banking account
into Bitcoin over to the merchants and perhaps back into their currency.
Because having that choice, um, makes it possible for me to choose either.
Loading my shitcoin, local shitcoins into Bitcoin, transacting that
way, or just having that super seamless transition when I need it.
So there is no disruption or extra steps in order to pay.
That's for at least the, the sort of Europe and US and these areas.
In other countries that have a much, much bigger problem with either their financial
system or Um, their local, uh, coins, uh, deflating at an even higher rate.
Um, it's different again.
I think the willingness to hold Bitcoin might be much, much higher.
It's funny that we're seeing these days, um, like a whole
thing about what is really Going on with with Bitcoin adoption.
And right now there's a little bit of Twitter drama going on where where
our friends Joe Nakamoto and Paco de la India are, are going around the
world and showing Bitcoin adoption and, and um, Well, the showing
it and also, you know, trying to increase it and all that good stuff.
Um, and there's, there's some smooth brains out there.
I won't say who they are, who, who are, uh, saying that, you know, that
like, uh, if a merchant allows Bitcoin payments and such a small percentage of
their, their payments are in Bitcoin, well, then what's the value to them
and all this, but the, I don't know.
On the ground of it all is that just by convincing merchants to take it and seeing
that Bitcoin is accepted somewhere, right, like, the payment side and the adoption,
it really does help, right, like, it's not as if a merchant accepting Bitcoin is
going to be even like really a negative for them, unless it massively increases
their anxiety about whether they're tax burden or, or regulatory accounting
needs or something like that, which is, uh, fair that happens in some, some
countries that don't get it, but, but, uh, merchant adoption and payments and,
and all this, this is what the lightning network work is really for, right?
Like that, that's the purpose to actually facilitate the payment side of Bitcoin as
opposed to just keeping a store of value.
Like, what are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, my thoughts in general is that the companies, um, And the people pushing
this online and, um, people operating with lightning, we need to look at how
payments work in the different countries, what the challenges are, and we need to
solve them, um, because nobody's adopting this technology or that's incorrect.
A few people are adopting it.
Just because they want to use that new technology, when you look at the
total population, people care about money, people care about simplicity,
especially simplicity, people even pay money to not have to bother with things.
Like you see with credit card fees and this, like, imagine how much money is
lost by merchants, large merchants.
paying percentages based on transactions.
They're doing that for convenience and they're doing that because they don't
really see that expense that that's sort of just deducted from what they
receive and it's just calculated into the price but they might pay millions
millions for this little box that the customer taps in order to pay them or
whatever form they fill in to to pay.
For their goods online and for lightning adoption in certain
countries, we need to reach the point where the simplicity is equal.
Uh, and, uh, people don't really think about this differently,
but we get all the benefits we get from lightning transactions,
which is the final settlement.
We get the speed of that transaction.
Uh, the price of that transaction is much lower, especially if you do it right.
Uh, we need, um, we need to just show that and sell that, not sell Bitcoin.
and beginning to get these people because they don't care about Bitcoin, right?
We care about Bitcoin and we're trying to get people to care about Bitcoin
because of all the important, um, benefits that has, but as we see at
massive scale, people don't do their, do what's good for them necessarily, right?
Uh, convenience and just going through your day is often...
Enough, uh, for people to just, I don't know, be distracted and not caring
about the important parts of this.
So we need to meet people, um, where they are, and we need to
solve the problems in each country.
And we need to, yeah, make it easy for people to make the right choice.
Any thoughts on El Salvador and what is going on there?
And any thoughts on Chivo Wallet?
Is that a psy op?
Like, is that a CBDC in disguise?
Like, well, what are your thoughts on El Salvador in general?
Um, to be honest, I'm not deep enough into it.
I see stuff on Twitter, but it's so easy on Twitter to say, Oh, that's bad.
Oh, that's good.
Right.
Um, without really looking deeper into what's going on.
Um, I've heard there is issues with adoption, and I think that goes back to
the same stuff I talked about earlier.
People don't understand it.
They don't necessarily know what's good for them.
It is a hard transition, right?
Imagine that we just suddenly come in and say like, in 1997,
we say just everybody should use internet right now to send mail.
A lot of people aren't going to do that, right?
Um, and the convenience stress isn't high enough.
So we need to, to, to get to that point and need to be not necessarily patient,
uh, but need to understand how heavy and how much needs to change to get there.
So I'm actually quite positive of what's happening in El Salvador in terms of Uh,
whatever adoption we have, uh, we need to just keep working on it and increase that.
But yeah, again, I'm not too deep into it.
There's probably a lot of problems in different places, uh, that you
alluded to that I'm not deeply into enough because I'm so focused on
building and working in the Lightning industry from a technical perspective.
Oh, that's great.
That's the division of labor.
Uh, I mean, focus on what you're good at and things will sort themselves out.
Right, Luke?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, we need people who understand the technical side and I've got a technical
background and I still even have a fiat job that's kind of tech oriented.
And the thing is, it's still Really not something that I can personally focus
on building the the tech side juggling a fiat job and something like that.
And so so, yeah, for people who actually are able to make the
leap to to work on Bitcoin, it's it's really fantastic to see.
And, and, I mean, how does it work that that to actually get information
Developers and technical people to be able to do more things with Bitcoin
because I, I really do see it as a, as a problem that, for example, they can
just, again, with the shit coins, they can just get a bag of shit coin money to
go work on some blockchain project, or they can mine fiat and do normie things.
Um, how, how do we get developers to, to, uh, Bitcoin and to understand,
uh, why it's important for them to spend their time on that?
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot more developers who really want to work
with Bitcoin and on Bitcoin than the people who get the chance to do it.
Um, the reason for that is, as you said, with With shitcoins, you can
just basically print money out of nowhere, uh, and convince people
through massive amount of marketing that they're worth something, and then
cash that out in order to fund your development, uh, or fund VCs, essentially.
And a lot of VCs have gotten used to the fact that you, you
create this token, you dump it on people, uh, within a year or two.
And if you're a VC.
And you get the choice between a regular startup that spends 10 years
until they can cash out, um, or two years from some, yeah, token.
Um, you're going to do the former, uh, no, the later, I mean.
Um, and that's where Bitcoin is in this position where, funding wise,
they, they operate like in normal.
Um, startup.
So it is the near horizon on things, right.
Um, while the investors who are there are often coming from sort
of the general crypto space.
Uh, of course we have Bitcoin focused VCs and they're often really good, but.
There's limited amount of money in that, which in, in, so
the, the Bitcoin focused one.
So, so you have this huge division, uh, and separation between sort
of the rest of the, the VC world and so the, the Bitcoin VCs.
And that results in less money for the true Bitcoin companies,
uh, which results in fewer jobs.
So there are a lot of people right now who's just either, uh, part-time
or full-time working on open source projects or in companies for lower.
Rages because they're really passionate about getting this to work and doing
the work that is needed, um, for Bitcoin to evolve and to work, and, um.
yeah, I mean, uh, I think it is something that's worthwhile doing
because this industry is growing, uh, steadily through the bear market.
It grows of course, um, a lot in funding wise in the, in the bull market.
And the only way to really get into this industry is through fruitful work.
Uh, you need to show that you understand Bitcoin and especially Lightning
has a complexity that's higher.
It is harder to understand.
There's more terms, um, both from sort of user perspective and from development
perspective of how the network works.
Um, so yeah, proof of work, you really dive into it, uh, spare time
in the beginning if you need to and, uh, get into the industry now.
Yeah.
Proof of work leads leading up to proof of results.
Uh, at some point, that's what we're looking for.
Henrik, thank you very much for the conversation and I hope to see you soon.
Before we leave, can you guide our listeners to where to find you and where
to find TORQ and are you attending any conferences this year or stuff like that?
Yeah, I've, uh, I'm attending the Adopting Bitcoin conference, uh, so, uh, go there.
I think that's a great, uh, conference, uh, also for Lightning.
Um, you can find Torque at, um, Twitter with, uh, at Torque LN.
And, uh, myself at O.
Henrik Skogström, a bit hard to pronounce and understand, so maybe we
can add something in the show notes, um, but that's the main two channels.
Uh, we're also writing a lot of content on Toric LN, uh, to, to help
bring people, uh, into Lightning.
Wonderful.
Thank you so much, Henrik.
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.
Thanks for listening.
So what did you think of that episode with Henrik?
It was interesting to learn more about how the Lightning
Network works under the hood.
What was your favorite moment?
Let us know.
You can send us a boostergram on Fountain, leave us a comment on YouTube,
or get in touch on Nostr or Twitter.
If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the episode
and subscribe to the channel.
Our show's sponsors are AmberApp, WasabiWallet, OrangePillApp,
TheBitcoinWay, and Geyser.
All their information is in the description.
That's all for now, see you next time, and thanks for listening.