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there were about to be a wave of companies that needed building because

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there were these big technological shifts happening on Bitcoin.

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That would allow a huge wave of innovation, so then we were like, wow,

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this is a huge opportunity and a huge need that founders would need, not just

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capital, but also really professional support, we invest not just capital,

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we're really supporting the founders in a really deep way when we do

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invest as well.

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okay, , why am I here?

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Like, what am I supposed to be doing in the world?

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to understand that I need to understand, like, Why are humans here?

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Like, if I'm part of humanity, like, why are humans?

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why is life?

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Why does life exist?

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Like, and then you're like, okay, well, why does the world exist?

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Then you're like, why does the universe exist?

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. I think why did the universe exist is a very complicated question that I have

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no insight into, but Why life exists to me is sort of like this way that

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consciousness gets to experience itself.

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So then we think about Satoshi, creating Bitcoin and then anonymously and

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leaving as sort of his ultimate act of ego death, there was no ego involved.

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He wanted nothing from it.

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Like he's never.

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You know, extracted a, Satoshi from his savings.

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And I think that's, you know, there's something that's so special about

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Bitcoin that can't be replicated.

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Andi, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show.

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Thanks for joining us.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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Yeah.

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Hi, AAndi good to see you.

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you're in, uh, back in Australia now, I guess, right?

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No, I live in Austin, in

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In Austin.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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so we'll, We'll, uh, uh, since I got that wrong, we should do the TLDR on Andi Pitt.

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Will you tell our listeners and us who you are and, uh, what you do,

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uh, please?

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Well, the reason

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I was, so I am from Australia.

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I grew up in Australia.

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Um, and we met at the Bitcoin conference in Sydney last year.

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So that's, you know, makes sense why you, you, you were

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thinking I live in Australia.

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Um, I was there for a while.

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So it was really great timing to be able to join that conference.

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I have a background in traditional finance.

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It was with Goldman Sachs, for around eight years.

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And, um, Um, starting in Australia in, um, in mergers and acquisitions,

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leveraged finance, and then moved to New York, where I sat on, um, the

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trading floor in a principal investing role, um, doing a lot of, structuring

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really interesting transactions, uh, really all around the world across a

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variety of different, industries, Left.

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I was always passionate about emerging markets, um, really saw

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that there was something very broken with how the global system works.

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and so that was really, you know, always what I wanted to do.

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And I just sort of ended up staying at Goldman a lot

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longer, maybe than I expected.

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and so I left, I ended up traveling, taking quite a long sabbatical,

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kind of working on a startup in the middle, failing at my startup.

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Now it's sort of.

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Well, merging it into another company, which now I'm

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advising on, which is awesome.

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and then, um, yeah, started, co founded the fund Ego Death Capital, along

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with Jeff Booth and Nikolai Lechuga as the founding general partners

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a little over two years ago now.

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Um, really with this excitement around what was going on in Bitcoin

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and Bitcoin being a solution to, you know, so many huge problems that I

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had always been passionate about.

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And bring sort of the different expertise, uh, that we could then really support

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those companies that we, that would be building out the infrastructure to

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create, you know, the system that we really wanted, to see in the world.

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Um, so we were very lucky to be joined by, um, our advisors, Lynn Alden, Preston Pish

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and Pablo Fernandez on the first fund.

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They really trusted us.

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Um, we're very grateful and have absolutely loved working with them.

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Um, we're currently raising our second fund.

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and, uh, Lynn and Preston are both joining us as general

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partners in that second fund.

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And then we also have, um, Lisa Naygood, aka Nifty Nay.

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She is joining as an advisor, technical advisor to the second fund.

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She's awesome.

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All of our team is awesome.

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so yeah, really love, love, love getting to work on what we get to

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work with, get to support amazing companies and just support these

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founders that are really like the ones

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bringing that vision to life.

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Yeah.

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So, so what kind of companies are EcoDeath looking to, to invest in?

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We invest in

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companies that are building Bitcoin only, so investing in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

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and companies, it's the software application layer.

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So we're not investing in, in any mining, um, companies.

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We would consider mining services, you know, technology for mining.

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but we really specialize the fund in, in these software applications.

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Um, and it's really then any company that's.

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Contributing in some way to the Bitcoin ecosystem with technology, helping

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people, providing, you know, ways that people can buy or use Bitcoin.

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So, for instance, um, we have a company called Relay out of Europe,

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and they're helping people in Europe to buy Bitcoin, uh, or it's like companies

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that maybe are using Bitcoin in a really innovative way, as well, or it's a,

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it's a way that's like, so it's sort of contributing to Bitcoin or using Bitcoin

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in some way.

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And what, uh, where did you get the idea from?

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Like where, how, how did, what, what are the origins of ego death?

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How, how did the, the, the things form start forming in your brain?

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Like

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where did it come from?

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so Nico and

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I, um, had been friends for quite a while and we, um, I was on sabbatical.

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I was thinking about what to do next and basically Nico and I

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started talking about, you know, Working on something together.

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and then he was, he's known Jeff for many years, Jeff Booth.

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So he's, he was quite good friends with Jeff and he and Jeff had

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been talking about what's going on in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

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you know, Jeff had been, you know, much deeper in the Bitcoin ecosystem than us.

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And both of us, Nico and I, had this deep passion for, uh, emerging markets.

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We had known Bitcoin for many years.

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and so then sort of the three of us started talking about what was

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going on in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

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how these companies, you know, Jeff had this insight of what, of this building

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that was really about to happen.

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that, that there were about to be a wave of companies that needed

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building because there were these big technological shifts happening on Bitcoin.

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That would allow a huge wave of innovation, um, and building to happen.

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And so then what we did, um, from there, uh, so then we were like,

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wow, this is a huge opportunity and a huge need that founders would need,

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not just capital, but also really professional support, for those.

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And so we constructed a team, basically, that would be able to

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raise the funding we needed and then really support those founders as well.

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So we invest not just capital, we're really supporting the founders

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in a really deep way when we do

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invest as well.

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what, what is the main difference of working with this as compared

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to working for Goldman and

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Sachs?

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Bye.

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I

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mean, the biggest difference from my day to day is, and high level is

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really, I'm working with early stage founders who have this like, Um, so

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we're investing in really people.

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It's investing in a small group of co founders, typically.

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And it's so, okay, yes, it's a company, but really, it's working closely with

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these, you know, really ambitious, excited, you Um, creative founders and

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really supporting them from that very early stage to growing, um, versus what

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I was doing at Goldman was really working with very big established companies.

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so, you know, anything from like SoftBank to, um, really big companies

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in, in, in, in emerging markets.

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Um, and there it's, it's just a really different thing.

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You're helping them improve their financing, but you're not.

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It wasn't really like helping to build something.

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I wasn't really like helping.

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I didn't really feel like I was necessarily contributing that much.

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It was like, okay, yes, I was helping these companies to improve in how they

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were operating, but I wasn't really like, I think it's much more exciting

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to be supporting young founders.

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And you can really see this, you're supporting them to grow from

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some, like basically from nothing to something really incredible.

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And then it's much more meaningful for me.

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Like.

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I just couldn't work anymore doing something that I didn't

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feel was like, really contributing in a positive way to the world.

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That was just like, it was just kind of soul destroying to be quite honest.

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so now it's like, You know, I really feel like what we're doing is, is

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supporting, um, something that's so important for the world to exist,

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like, and it's like, how do we each contribute in our own way to that?

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And so I feel like this is how I can contribute

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to kind of Bitcoin effectively.

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Yeah.

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And, uh,

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like, uh, Jeff talks about, uh, like seeing things from the lens of the,

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the world that is to come, or like, you can choose how much you already

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live in on a Bitcoin standard or in a hyperbitcoinized world, right?

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It's sort of personal.

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So from EcoDev's perspective, how much, like, do you denominate in

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sats, for instance, when you look at, uh, a contract or anything

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really, like how, how do you view the

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world from a company perspective?

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I think there's

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like a difference between looking forward and being practical

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around the reality of today.

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And if we were to say, oh, we, we live in a Bitcoinized world,

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that's sort of delusional.

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Um, you know, I think what Jeff is talking about much more is like

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looking forward, um, and doing what we can to get to that point.

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But the reality is that, you know, most of the founders we invest in,

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their expenses of their company are mostly denominated in fiat.

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So a founder that's living in Lisbon, Portugal.

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He's paying his rent in fiat, you know, is paying his children's

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school fees in, in, in euros.

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you know, and so the reality is that most founders, at least sort of their

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life expenses, and so their salaries for the engineers and everyone has

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to be at least a majority in fiat.

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But then what was, what then makes sense is, you know, we all typically

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like might save a portion of our salaries and retain a portion.

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So there's like a transition over time where now people

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don't want to save in fiat.

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So their day to day expenses, part of their income maybe has to be

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in fiat, but then part of it now can go into Bitcoin because that's

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actually what people want to save in.

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Um, so I think that's like the start of the transition.

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And then over time, as you see hyperbitcoinization, then maybe

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those, you know, the base case of expenses gets denominated

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in fiat, sorry, in, in Bitcoin.

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But for now, what we're doing is effectively investing, um, fiat

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currency into, into, into companies.

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And there are a few reasons for that.

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One is just from a practical perspective, these early stage

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companies, their expenses are in fiat.

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But over time, as they're generating Bitcoin revenues, whether it's

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Bitcoin linked or just directly in Bitcoin, they put more and more

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of their treasury into Bitcoin.

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So, if you are a founder and you have your expenses of denominated in

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fiat and you have a Bitcoin treasury, that opens you up to so much risk.

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But over time, as you have revenues, it balances out.

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And so it's sort of this like gradual curve that companies can shift to a

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Bitcoin standard, um, over time as they're generating Bitcoin linked revenue.

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So as we're seeing all of these companies start to do that, it's sort

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of like all I guess it's like a flywheel almost that more and more Bitcoin.

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The companies are earning Bitcoin, and then it creates more

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Bitcoin, um, usage over time.

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So that's sort of how we see it.

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And, uh, but we invest in companies that we think basically have the

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ability to outperform Bitcoin.

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So they're really, we're thinking about the sort of hurdle rate as being Bitcoin,

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which is an insanely high hurdle rate.

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Um, but you know, that's how our founders have to think that if they're not able

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to beat the Bitcoin hurdle rate with the growth in their company, then, you know,

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they should really just be holding it, holding treasury or investing in Bitcoin.

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So that that's what we're really looking

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for in our companies as well.

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Yeah, and that's,

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that's really, really hard.

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I mean.

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what would that be?

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Well, it would be something in Bitcoin and something earning Bitcoin, probably.

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Uh, but yeah, that hurdle is, it's gonna change everything and,

238
00:12:12,010 --> 00:12:15,860
uh, some people are fearful that that will slow down the economy.

239
00:12:16,410 --> 00:12:17,780
I don't think so, personally.

240
00:12:17,820 --> 00:12:22,780
I think it's just, it's just more honest and we'll see if you, there are no

241
00:12:22,780 --> 00:12:24,870
zombie companies on a Bitcoin standard.

242
00:12:25,310 --> 00:12:31,405
Uh, it's just, it's just, More truthful, uh, but that also means that to outperform

243
00:12:31,445 --> 00:12:33,215
Bitcoin, you have to provide something of

244
00:12:33,225 --> 00:12:34,255
real value.

245
00:12:35,006 --> 00:12:36,256
Yeah, that's exactly right.

246
00:12:36,266 --> 00:12:37,136
And I mean, what we've

247
00:12:37,136 --> 00:12:41,780
seen is, you know, a lot of venture capital, uh, has gotten a

248
00:12:41,780 --> 00:12:43,920
little over its skis, I would say.

249
00:12:43,980 --> 00:12:47,860
Um, there's been so much funding put into companies that just don't make sense.

250
00:12:47,900 --> 00:12:50,000
So much wasted funding.

251
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:55,840
Um, and then it's a whole extra story in the crypto VC world, which is not even VC.

252
00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,680
I wouldn't even call it venture capital, but that's a whole different story.

253
00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:03,871
Um, so I think founders in the Bitcoin ecosystem, and we encourage this as being

254
00:13:03,871 --> 00:13:06,561
very, very diligent, very thoughtful.

255
00:13:06,951 --> 00:13:10,351
We're not investing in companies that maybe have the potential to

256
00:13:10,351 --> 00:13:12,141
have revenue in five years time.

257
00:13:12,161 --> 00:13:13,741
It's like, no, what's like the business model?

258
00:13:13,751 --> 00:13:14,941
How are you going to get there?

259
00:13:15,413 --> 00:13:18,233
and that's really what we want to see from a pretty early stage.

260
00:13:18,531 --> 00:13:20,311
and so, you know, founders are diligent.

261
00:13:20,441 --> 00:13:23,311
We're having this world where some of our companies are cash flow positive,

262
00:13:23,341 --> 00:13:25,391
like, profitable at the seed stage.

263
00:13:25,711 --> 00:13:29,621
And with the sort of super high growth metrics that you would expect,

264
00:13:30,118 --> 00:13:31,658
as well from a seed stage company.

265
00:13:31,658 --> 00:13:33,488
And that's, that's, I think, quite unique.

266
00:13:33,568 --> 00:13:34,588
Not all of our companies.

267
00:13:34,588 --> 00:13:37,258
We have a sort of a, from a portfolio construction perspective, some

268
00:13:37,258 --> 00:13:40,258
that really have revenue today and some that are more like moonshots.

269
00:13:41,073 --> 00:13:43,093
But, you know, from a venture perspective, we are looking for the

270
00:13:43,093 --> 00:13:47,093
companies that contribute, can have the potential to contribute in a really

271
00:13:47,093 --> 00:13:48,953
material way to the Bitcoin ecosystem.

272
00:13:49,263 --> 00:13:52,143
And for our investors, that means, you know, if they have the

273
00:13:52,143 --> 00:13:53,803
potential to return like 100x.

274
00:13:54,586 --> 00:13:57,786
and so Bitcoin, you know, I think it's unlikely that Bitcoin

275
00:13:58,886 --> 00:14:00,606
does 100x in the next 10 years.

276
00:14:01,206 --> 00:14:01,826
You never know.

277
00:14:01,836 --> 00:14:05,316
But, um, as compared to Fiat, like, let's see what happens in the Fiat world.

278
00:14:06,206 --> 00:14:08,876
As compared to some currencies, it certainly will do 100x.

279
00:14:09,386 --> 00:14:11,436
Um, but compared to the US dollar.

280
00:14:11,536 --> 00:14:13,126
Um, but that's what we're looking for in

281
00:14:13,126 --> 00:14:13,596
companies.

282
00:14:14,287 --> 00:14:19,367
I've talked to Jeff about this a lot, like, uh, what, what this implies and what

283
00:14:19,717 --> 00:14:21,707
it could possibly mean for the future.

284
00:14:22,027 --> 00:14:26,852
So, The first, the first instinctive thing is to think that like, okay, so

285
00:14:26,852 --> 00:14:32,142
running a profitable Bitcoin company, like denominated in Bitcoin is really,

286
00:14:32,142 --> 00:14:36,712
really hard, but then you get into the other thing, uh, which is so fascinating

287
00:14:36,732 --> 00:14:41,280
that free market competition there, there's a, there's like a new level.

288
00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:46,440
Of competition, competition that doesn't even have to be competition

289
00:14:46,470 --> 00:14:51,520
on Bitcoin, because Bitcoiners are incentivized to help one another.

290
00:14:51,540 --> 00:14:53,140
And so are Bitcoin companies.

291
00:14:53,677 --> 00:14:55,897
we all benefit from each other.

292
00:14:55,907 --> 00:14:57,917
Bitcoin, proper Bitcoin company.

293
00:14:57,997 --> 00:15:02,877
Uh, so, so one thing happening in Bitcoin over here helps everyone else in Bitcoin.

294
00:15:03,202 --> 00:15:05,032
Every, every other part of the world.

295
00:15:05,052 --> 00:15:09,811
So, so we're, uh, and the companies in particular are, are incentivized

296
00:15:09,841 --> 00:15:11,151
to, to like help one another.

297
00:15:11,151 --> 00:15:14,771
And I can feel like, uh, we've seen this through the years, uh,

298
00:15:15,091 --> 00:15:18,601
being in the space that more and more people are leaning into that.

299
00:15:18,651 --> 00:15:22,441
And, and instead of seeing it one another as competitors, just.

300
00:15:23,616 --> 00:15:28,886
Starting to help one another, but li like, uh, the Madeira Conference for

301
00:15:28,886 --> 00:15:33,296
instance, and B2C, Prague and, and, and Honey Badger and Riga, all of those three

302
00:15:33,326 --> 00:15:37,646
conferences seem like they, they don't see each other as competition at all.

303
00:15:37,651 --> 00:15:40,556
They see each other as complimentary to one another.

304
00:15:40,976 --> 00:15:45,806
And like, I, I look forward that kind of future so much because I think that's,

305
00:15:45,836 --> 00:15:48,016
that's one of the most beautiful aspects

306
00:15:48,016 --> 00:15:48,406
of this.

307
00:15:48,406 --> 00:15:49,306
What, what are your thoughts?

308
00:15:49,817 --> 00:15:50,947
Yeah, I totally agree.

309
00:15:50,947 --> 00:15:51,157
And

310
00:15:51,157 --> 00:15:54,667
I think it's, it's like, there are huge problems with having an underlying

311
00:15:54,797 --> 00:15:59,607
monetary system that is corrupted, that's inflationary, that's unfair.

312
00:16:00,130 --> 00:16:04,940
and we don't really see that in a very tangible, obvious way in our society on

313
00:16:04,940 --> 00:16:06,780
like normal day to day, year to year.

314
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,750
But what we do see is, okay, well, let's look what happens

315
00:16:10,750 --> 00:16:12,090
when you have hyperinflation.

316
00:16:12,665 --> 00:16:16,695
and people are all of a sudden really struggling, having to compete.

317
00:16:16,725 --> 00:16:18,745
This creates enormous scarcity.

318
00:16:18,745 --> 00:16:21,165
It just destroys society so quickly.

319
00:16:21,665 --> 00:16:27,435
And so if you think about, like, that being a super magnified version of what

320
00:16:27,435 --> 00:16:31,975
we have in our underlying system, and so we have that going on in a smaller

321
00:16:31,975 --> 00:16:36,675
way every year, but over 10, 20, 50 years, that just creates this culture of

322
00:16:36,675 --> 00:16:39,935
competition, effectively, because everyone has this scarcity, because everyone's

323
00:16:39,935 --> 00:16:45,855
just like, um, You know, the hamstermill trying to, like, keep up with, with,

324
00:16:45,955 --> 00:16:50,205
with the world, um, with inflation, with, with asset price inflation.

325
00:16:50,732 --> 00:16:53,622
and so I think that, you know, I mean, that's definitely the thesis

326
00:16:53,622 --> 00:16:57,952
that if you don't have a corruption and underlying monetary system, that

327
00:16:58,022 --> 00:17:00,692
it could completely change the way people interact with each other.

328
00:17:00,692 --> 00:17:04,672
If, if people no longer have a scarcity mindset, if they have a currency, they

329
00:17:04,672 --> 00:17:07,512
can actually store their wealth in and they're not constantly having to

330
00:17:07,512 --> 00:17:10,522
preserve that and figure out how to preserve it and invest and make more.

331
00:17:11,173 --> 00:17:15,003
and so I feel like that, that definitely comes across into Bitcoin now from a

332
00:17:15,003 --> 00:17:18,423
practical perspective, if you are building a company in the Bitcoin space, there

333
00:17:18,423 --> 00:17:22,323
might be competition in your space, and that is going to be competitive.

334
00:17:22,773 --> 00:17:26,053
But I think what's really different here is the share.

335
00:17:26,053 --> 00:17:28,433
It's, it's not like there's a fixed pie.

336
00:17:28,803 --> 00:17:32,623
And everyone's trying to like get a piece of it and it's a zero sum game.

337
00:17:32,633 --> 00:17:34,613
Like it's not a zero sum game in Bitcoin.

338
00:17:35,235 --> 00:17:40,145
the pie is growing and if everyone is contributing, so if you have like, you

339
00:17:40,145 --> 00:17:44,625
know, 5 different, let's talk about like, you know, relay and sorry, Swan and

340
00:17:44,625 --> 00:17:49,415
River are 2 big US companies, which help people buy Bitcoin in the US, like, if

341
00:17:49,445 --> 00:17:54,785
each of them are bringing Bitcoin to new people, then that whole pie is growing.

342
00:17:54,795 --> 00:17:56,685
And so they're helping each other and they're not.

343
00:17:57,370 --> 00:17:59,980
And there is a degree of competition, but there's a degree to which each

344
00:17:59,980 --> 00:18:03,710
of them is sort of like growing their worlds and their buyers.

345
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:08,440
And so actually, I think that's being part of like a rising tide of something means

346
00:18:08,490 --> 00:18:13,290
that there is inherently less requirement to be competitive and people can then

347
00:18:13,310 --> 00:18:14,950
really contribute and help each other.

348
00:18:14,950 --> 00:18:16,610
And so, yeah, I agree with you.

349
00:18:16,610 --> 00:18:17,850
I think we're definitely

350
00:18:17,850 --> 00:18:18,990
seeing that in the Bitcoin space.

351
00:18:19,622 --> 00:18:19,832
Yeah.

352
00:18:19,832 --> 00:18:20,192
This whole

353
00:18:20,192 --> 00:18:24,212
notion of, uh, the economy being a zero sum game is, is like one

354
00:18:24,212 --> 00:18:25,922
of the bigger lies ever told.

355
00:18:25,952 --> 00:18:32,012
Like, it's, uh, uh, I, I think that's, that's why people have a, uh, the,

356
00:18:32,012 --> 00:18:37,292
the sea, like the evil Uncle Scrooge type capitalist as the bad guy.

357
00:18:37,762 --> 00:18:39,577
It's because of this flaw.

358
00:18:40,353 --> 00:18:45,903
conception of the, the, that being rich always has to be at the expense of

359
00:18:45,903 --> 00:18:48,283
someone else, which is simply not true.

360
00:18:48,283 --> 00:18:52,913
It's, it's only true if you acquired your wealth through, uh, illicit

361
00:18:52,913 --> 00:18:55,483
means, uh, including inflation.

362
00:18:55,583 --> 00:18:55,963
So.

363
00:18:56,793 --> 00:19:01,383
Uh, when you live in a system that is inherently, uh, untruthful

364
00:19:01,423 --> 00:19:06,839
and wrong, ethically wrong and immoral, then that's what happens.

365
00:19:06,919 --> 00:19:10,689
Then people will see the capitalist as the bad guy, and they're

366
00:19:10,929 --> 00:19:15,819
partly, partially right, since, uh, since that's what's going on.

367
00:19:15,829 --> 00:19:20,867
Like, the winners are the ones who know how to play this, very skewed

368
00:19:21,137 --> 00:19:21,997
kind of game.

369
00:19:22,569 --> 00:19:24,099
I mean, I think it's, it's true.

370
00:19:24,099 --> 00:19:30,619
I think one thing I, I do, I have observed is like, everyone's trying to do what

371
00:19:30,619 --> 00:19:32,199
they think is right at the end of the day.

372
00:19:32,229 --> 00:19:34,869
Like, I think there are very few people in the world.

373
00:19:34,899 --> 00:19:35,679
I mean, for sure.

374
00:19:35,679 --> 00:19:43,949
Some that are really out there to be terrible people, like, most people by

375
00:19:43,949 --> 00:19:49,059
far the majority genuinely think that what they're doing is the right thing

376
00:19:49,489 --> 00:19:50,679
or that maybe they don't think about it.

377
00:19:50,709 --> 00:19:54,529
And Yeah, they're trying to build, build, build wealth for their family.

378
00:19:54,529 --> 00:19:55,859
They're trying to support their family.

379
00:19:55,889 --> 00:19:59,579
And the best way that they know how to do that is by working in a big corporation

380
00:19:59,589 --> 00:20:01,059
or by running a big corporation.

381
00:20:01,059 --> 00:20:04,979
And maybe that corporation happens to be close to the money printer or there's

382
00:20:04,979 --> 00:20:09,219
lobbyists, like, and then you get in this system where people, you know, work

383
00:20:09,219 --> 00:20:13,299
for a company and, like, the way that they're rewarded, the whole, the whole

384
00:20:13,319 --> 00:20:17,624
system is incentivized that these people The best way that they can be successful,

385
00:20:17,624 --> 00:20:21,834
which is what society expects, is for them to work really hard in that company

386
00:20:21,834 --> 00:20:25,054
and do the best thing to maximize the shareholder returns of that company.

387
00:20:25,734 --> 00:20:29,834
But the whole system is, like, pushing them into that because, you know,

388
00:20:29,834 --> 00:20:33,614
you have pension funds, well, it's like, really, you have, like, big

389
00:20:33,614 --> 00:20:37,614
investors, let's call it BlackRock, that, like, are expecting these

390
00:20:37,614 --> 00:20:39,144
companies to have shareholder returns.

391
00:20:39,334 --> 00:20:42,804
And so then the people inside, the board of directors, the CEO, okay,

392
00:20:42,804 --> 00:20:47,074
they, all they need to do is constantly grow profits and that's like their

393
00:20:47,074 --> 00:20:48,584
one thing that they have to do.

394
00:20:49,034 --> 00:20:52,774
And so, okay, we can demonize them, like the CEO of a major company.

395
00:20:53,179 --> 00:20:57,429
For taking a big salary and, you know, pushing growth at all costs.

396
00:20:57,429 --> 00:20:57,629
Okay.

397
00:20:57,629 --> 00:20:58,409
But why is he doing that?

398
00:20:58,409 --> 00:20:59,109
Let's okay.

399
00:20:59,109 --> 00:21:03,829
Well, let's demonize BlackRock because they own all of the equity and they're

400
00:21:03,829 --> 00:21:05,479
the ones that are like putting the shells.

401
00:21:05,509 --> 00:21:05,789
Okay.

402
00:21:05,789 --> 00:21:06,699
Well, okay.

403
00:21:06,699 --> 00:21:08,979
But who's pressure on BlackRock like BlackRock.

404
00:21:09,029 --> 00:21:09,269
Okay.

405
00:21:09,269 --> 00:21:11,989
They're high net worth or they actually have pension funds that like moms and

406
00:21:11,989 --> 00:21:16,279
dads invest in that they need the returns because the whole system is inflationary.

407
00:21:16,659 --> 00:21:20,789
And so I think there is, it's easy to demonize people, but I just see everyone

408
00:21:20,789 --> 00:21:23,229
as a sort of like a product of that system

409
00:21:23,229 --> 00:21:24,399
in one way or another.

410
00:21:24,399 --> 00:21:24,702
I

411
00:21:24,738 --> 00:21:25,148
Yeah,

412
00:21:25,378 --> 00:21:29,328
uh, and this is, this is something I debate with other Bitcoiners a lot

413
00:21:29,378 --> 00:21:31,788
because, like, I, I totally agree.

414
00:21:31,788 --> 00:21:35,594
I don't think, I think it's a, it's an effect of how the system

415
00:21:35,594 --> 00:21:38,824
is constructed from the beginning, and I don't even think, I don't

416
00:21:38,824 --> 00:21:43,304
even buy that the founders of the Federal Reserve were thinking things.

417
00:21:43,834 --> 00:21:47,424
Uh, that they were doing something evil either, or like, they, they probably

418
00:21:47,434 --> 00:21:48,884
thought they were doing the right thing.

419
00:21:49,454 --> 00:21:54,904
Uh, it's just, that was impossible to see the, that far into the future.

420
00:21:54,904 --> 00:22:00,284
What the, the, what the end result or what the long term effects of, of this

421
00:22:00,294 --> 00:22:04,874
kind of system would be, just as I think like, uh, a democracy is sort of like

422
00:22:04,874 --> 00:22:10,709
that, uh, it, uh, It looks very good on paper, but it, uh, is it inevitable?

423
00:22:10,739 --> 00:22:12,029
This is something I struggle with.

424
00:22:12,069 --> 00:22:16,999
Is it inevitable that every democracy turns into a totalitarian state after

425
00:22:17,299 --> 00:22:22,359
X amount of hundreds of years, like, because, or tens of years or whatever?

426
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:28,559
I think the pace may differ, but, uh, there's something inherently flawed

427
00:22:28,579 --> 00:22:33,289
about, um, um, About all of our systems, when we have this kind of

428
00:22:33,329 --> 00:22:38,799
corrupt money, uh, in the base layer, it's, it's probably all inevitable,

429
00:22:39,279 --> 00:22:41,299
all the, all the bad shit that comes

430
00:22:41,329 --> 00:22:41,849
with it,

431
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:42,690
mean, it might

432
00:22:42,690 --> 00:22:47,310
be based, but there's other inherent problems, like even, so I guess I

433
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,200
think you have, you have to like, separate democracy from elections.

434
00:22:51,780 --> 00:22:54,900
So just because a country has elections doesn't mean it's democracy.

435
00:22:54,910 --> 00:22:56,690
Like, the US is not a democracy.

436
00:22:57,060 --> 00:23:00,010
Like, if you actually look into it, like most countries.

437
00:23:00,425 --> 00:23:03,465
And it's like, I think the bigger question, well, at least how I think,

438
00:23:03,485 --> 00:23:06,735
I totally agree with you and how I sort of frame it is like, is it

439
00:23:06,745 --> 00:23:08,645
actually possible to have a democracy?

440
00:23:08,645 --> 00:23:11,025
Because if you did have a perfect democracy, then

441
00:23:11,285 --> 00:23:12,685
theoretically that could continue.

442
00:23:12,685 --> 00:23:15,695
But the problem is, like, I don't know that that's possible.

443
00:23:15,695 --> 00:23:19,435
And so even if you look at like voting theory, so like, if you look at kind

444
00:23:19,435 --> 00:23:23,375
of a microeconomics, like, like a mathematical model of voting theory.

445
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:25,550
There is no perfect voting system.

446
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,500
So there is no perfect voting system that will accurately reflect the

447
00:23:29,500 --> 00:23:31,370
views of the population every time.

448
00:23:31,730 --> 00:23:35,590
So different countries have different structures to try and overcome this.

449
00:23:35,620 --> 00:23:40,030
In the US, you have state by state, you have the president, which is very flawed.

450
00:23:40,370 --> 00:23:44,250
In say, um, certain countries like Egypt, you'll have runoff elections.

451
00:23:44,330 --> 00:23:50,050
So you'll have like 50 candidates and then the top, like, two get selected.

452
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:51,150
For a runoff.

453
00:23:51,580 --> 00:23:55,150
But even then, mathematically, like, it doesn't guarantee, because people

454
00:23:55,150 --> 00:23:58,140
split the vote, like, you could have three candidates out of the five in

455
00:23:58,150 --> 00:24:01,830
the first election that represent the same thing, they split the vote, and

456
00:24:01,830 --> 00:24:04,430
therefore the other two go through.

457
00:24:04,620 --> 00:24:08,260
So, just mathematically, there's actually no perfect way to have

458
00:24:08,590 --> 00:24:10,310
Elections reflect the population.

459
00:24:10,666 --> 00:24:15,556
other countries like Germany will do, um, proportional representation of democracy.

460
00:24:15,556 --> 00:24:18,556
Once you get above a certain threshold, you have representation in the

461
00:24:18,556 --> 00:24:22,006
parliament, and then you get into all the factors of like, of that.

462
00:24:22,006 --> 00:24:27,136
But I think, you know, and then in the US, we have parliamentary voting.

463
00:24:27,136 --> 00:24:32,588
In Australia, we have something similar, but In the US, each individual, senator

464
00:24:32,588 --> 00:24:38,068
or congressman or congresswoman would vote individually on each piece of legislation.

465
00:24:38,458 --> 00:24:43,628
In Australia, or the UK, and I, I'm not sure how it is in European

466
00:24:43,628 --> 00:24:48,418
countries, you vote as a party, like, it's very, very uncommon.

467
00:24:48,418 --> 00:24:51,778
It's almost unheard of for anyone to vote against the party.

468
00:24:51,808 --> 00:24:55,748
So if we think about how that works in practice, in the US, each individual,

469
00:24:55,748 --> 00:24:58,378
uh, And then the other person is deciding whether or not they're going

470
00:24:58,378 --> 00:25:02,328
to vote for a piece of legislation, which it's like, how do you design

471
00:25:02,328 --> 00:25:03,848
a system for maximum corruption?

472
00:25:03,858 --> 00:25:04,218
Right?

473
00:25:04,248 --> 00:25:08,298
Because then they're like looking at their own interests for every single

474
00:25:08,298 --> 00:25:12,028
one, bargaining on every single piece of legislation that comes through.

475
00:25:12,338 --> 00:25:15,298
And so then you just get these like crazy pieces of legislation passed,

476
00:25:15,298 --> 00:25:18,508
like the Inflation Reduction Act that people just add on and add on and add

477
00:25:18,508 --> 00:25:20,478
on, and it just becomes a total mess.

478
00:25:21,078 --> 00:25:25,243
Whereas in Australia, like, There are benefits and cons and pros of, like, pros

479
00:25:25,243 --> 00:25:29,123
and cons of both systems, but at least in Australia, I think there is corruption,

480
00:25:29,123 --> 00:25:32,883
but it's less, because you would have to basically corrupt an entire party,

481
00:25:32,883 --> 00:25:37,133
effectively, or a majority of the party, your interests would have to align with

482
00:25:37,593 --> 00:25:41,713
a majority of the party for that party to kind of want that to come into force.

483
00:25:42,445 --> 00:25:44,265
because if the party doesn't agree with what the leader is

484
00:25:44,265 --> 00:25:47,885
doing, they actually can just vote him out in between elections.

485
00:25:48,495 --> 00:25:52,415
So it's very much like a, it's just a little more check and balance on at least

486
00:25:52,425 --> 00:25:55,555
that one particular aspect of, of, of what

487
00:25:55,555 --> 00:25:57,115
might corrupt a democracy.

488
00:25:57,769 --> 00:26:00,509
I don't know how it is in other European countries, but I think it's

489
00:26:00,519 --> 00:26:03,959
kind of similar, but, but from my, my experience is from the Swedish

490
00:26:03,999 --> 00:26:08,154
system, Where it's very much like that, that it's very uncommon that

491
00:26:09,334 --> 00:26:11,134
people go against the party line.

492
00:26:11,774 --> 00:26:14,284
But it's not as if you have to bribe the entire party.

493
00:26:14,284 --> 00:26:18,954
You could just bribe the leadership of the party, which is usually very centralized

494
00:26:19,254 --> 00:26:24,074
and very bribe able, as it seems anyway.

495
00:26:24,314 --> 00:26:29,504
So, so I think, uh, yeah, and there's a lot of like virtue signaling and stuff

496
00:26:29,504 --> 00:26:31,544
going on from this leadership position.

497
00:26:31,544 --> 00:26:38,159
So, so, uh, I think we'll get, uh, I view corruption in different countries

498
00:26:38,189 --> 00:26:43,269
as like they're, they're, it exists everywhere, but it's just the different

499
00:26:43,279 --> 00:26:49,229
layers of society where you, you might have to, you know, bribe the, the, the

500
00:26:49,229 --> 00:26:54,739
police officer on the street in Mexico, but, uh, and if you go to Scandinavia,

501
00:26:54,739 --> 00:26:59,479
you have to bribe someone higher up the hierarchy and it's more expensive to bribe

502
00:26:59,479 --> 00:27:01,079
them, but the bribes are still there.

503
00:27:01,679 --> 00:27:07,281
So, so what system is more, You know, fair and, and, uh, truthful,

504
00:27:07,321 --> 00:27:11,241
well, up for debate, I guess, but, uh, Yeah, and then you have the

505
00:27:11,241 --> 00:27:13,031
other inherent flaws of democracy.

506
00:27:13,031 --> 00:27:17,371
It's not just only that it doesn't make, like, voting theory and mathematics that

507
00:27:17,371 --> 00:27:22,941
it doesn't make sense, but also the, the, uh, the morality of, like, it's four

508
00:27:22,941 --> 00:27:27,721
people, if five people vote, four of them could vote for beating up the fifth guy.

509
00:27:27,751 --> 00:27:29,941
And that's like, it's still wrong.

510
00:27:31,821 --> 00:27:37,831
So you come into libertarian theory and property rights and stuff and, uh,

511
00:27:39,901 --> 00:27:44,651
It's very hard to square democracy with property rights at the end of the day.

512
00:27:44,701 --> 00:27:48,881
So, so, but I don't, I'm not claiming I have any answers here what to

513
00:27:48,881 --> 00:27:52,051
do about it, except just increase your freedom footprint and get

514
00:27:52,061 --> 00:27:54,211
some more money, or I mean Bitcoin.

515
00:27:55,241 --> 00:27:57,271
Get some more money is probably a good idea too.

516
00:27:58,401 --> 00:28:02,686
Yeah, but get your hands on some Bitcoin and try to Live your life your own

517
00:28:02,686 --> 00:28:08,016
way, use the tools you have, like, do the jurisdictional slalom if you can,

518
00:28:08,221 --> 00:28:10,491
I mean, one thing I do find useful is like

519
00:28:10,952 --> 00:28:14,812
talking to people about the ideas we talk about in Bitcoin, but not in a

520
00:28:14,892 --> 00:28:22,942
preachy, It's like when invited or, you know, maybe discussing lightly

521
00:28:22,942 --> 00:28:24,502
something that someone might find it.

522
00:28:24,502 --> 00:28:25,432
I don't know with my family.

523
00:28:25,432 --> 00:28:28,992
Like, if I just go and talk about Bitcoin, I've lost them.

524
00:28:29,562 --> 00:28:32,662
But, um, you know, there are certain aspects of it that

525
00:28:32,672 --> 00:28:33,822
actually really resonate.

526
00:28:33,862 --> 00:28:38,082
And so sort of helping because people like inherently, I think

527
00:28:38,122 --> 00:28:39,292
it's a human nature thing.

528
00:28:39,292 --> 00:28:42,467
Like, One way or another, quite close minded.

529
00:28:42,918 --> 00:28:47,388
they might, it's like a natural thing over time and evolutionary perspective that You

530
00:28:47,388 --> 00:28:51,738
know, people end up seeing the world in a fixed way that is effectively in line with

531
00:28:51,738 --> 00:28:56,434
their peer group, and so helping, like, I think, like, just creating, like, little

532
00:28:56,434 --> 00:29:00,384
cracks in, in maybe the way that they see the world and opening minds a little

533
00:29:00,384 --> 00:29:05,239
bit, I think that's, like, what I've At least where I'm at, who knows, like, but

534
00:29:05,389 --> 00:29:10,269
right now, that's kind of where I'm at of like, just like us getting people to

535
00:29:10,269 --> 00:29:13,419
maybe like question their assumptions a little bit just to like loosen up

536
00:29:13,469 --> 00:29:14,849
maybe some of those really fixed,

537
00:29:15,559 --> 00:29:16,959
fixed views that are held.

538
00:29:17,431 --> 00:29:18,561
Absolutely, and

539
00:29:18,981 --> 00:29:21,701
yeah, that's how you do it.

540
00:29:21,701 --> 00:29:29,721
Because you, like, going full on, becoming a full on, like, big coiner, you will

541
00:29:29,771 --> 00:29:35,810
alienate people, and You, you will spend less time with your old friends, uh,

542
00:29:36,435 --> 00:29:41,466
that's just comes with the thing, uh, because you, you, you have less in common

543
00:29:41,516 --> 00:29:46,976
if, if you view the world differently and, uh, yeah, I, I've, I've seen it happen

544
00:29:46,976 --> 00:29:54,245
firsthand and, uh, hopefully poking holes in their narratives and, and, uh, cracks,

545
00:29:54,245 --> 00:29:59,192
as you say, in their, uh, a little crack here and there and, the mirror through

546
00:29:59,192 --> 00:30:02,012
which their worlds are reflected through.

547
00:30:02,497 --> 00:30:04,407
A strange sentence, but, uh,

548
00:30:04,927 --> 00:30:06,507
that's probably how you, how you get there.

549
00:30:07,124 --> 00:30:09,114
I think that's a really great way to phrase it actually.

550
00:31:58,269 --> 00:31:59,279
Yeah, maybe, uh, maybe

551
00:31:59,279 --> 00:32:03,839
I'll jump in now on a, on a to slightly take the topic a

552
00:32:04,369 --> 00:32:06,099
little bit different direction.

553
00:32:06,129 --> 00:32:13,343
Uh, you mentioned that, that you, got into Bitcoin and sort of more in your

554
00:32:13,343 --> 00:32:18,023
life because it aligned with some things that, that, uh, that you found important.

555
00:32:18,513 --> 00:32:21,983
Uh, so, but can you explain how you found Bitcoin and how you

556
00:32:21,983 --> 00:32:23,643
came to the realization that it

557
00:32:23,643 --> 00:32:24,343
did those things?

558
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:25,510
Yeah, so

559
00:32:25,510 --> 00:32:28,840
I first came across Bitcoin probably in 2017.

560
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,430
I was sitting on the trading floor at Goldman in New York and

561
00:32:31,860 --> 00:32:33,090
everyone was talking about Bitcoin.

562
00:32:33,090 --> 00:32:34,560
It was the 2017 bull run.

563
00:32:34,838 --> 00:32:36,618
and I was like, what is this thing?

564
00:32:36,618 --> 00:32:38,628
I remember there was like, I think there was a guy on the floor that

565
00:32:38,638 --> 00:32:41,548
like made so much and he just like quit and bought a house in the

566
00:32:41,548 --> 00:32:42,988
Hamptons and just like retired.

567
00:32:42,988 --> 00:32:45,298
And everyone was like, Wow.

568
00:32:45,298 --> 00:32:45,548
Okay.

569
00:32:45,548 --> 00:32:46,388
That's kind of cool.

570
00:32:46,388 --> 00:32:48,088
Like, but also like jealous.

571
00:32:48,648 --> 00:32:49,968
Like, I wish I'd done that.

572
00:32:50,386 --> 00:32:52,736
not I wish, but you know, that's what people were saying.

573
00:32:53,056 --> 00:32:55,766
So that's when I, that was like a very strong memory I have.

574
00:32:55,816 --> 00:32:58,116
Um, and then I left Goldman in 2018.

575
00:32:58,116 --> 00:33:01,936
I ended up actually spending a lot of time in Europe, um, and specifically Berlin

576
00:33:02,196 --> 00:33:04,246
with a lot more of the crypto community.

577
00:33:04,566 --> 00:33:07,926
So a lot of the, you know, people that were much more involved in Ethereum,

578
00:33:07,926 --> 00:33:13,370
in altcoins, And there I was talking about so many interesting use cases,

579
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,570
but I was just like, highly skeptical.

580
00:33:16,570 --> 00:33:20,300
And I was like, I don't really think these use cases make sense.

581
00:33:20,730 --> 00:33:24,729
Like, for instance, because I've been a student of emerging markets,

582
00:33:24,859 --> 00:33:28,968
democracy, governance, like, corruption, And so people were saying, okay, well

583
00:33:28,968 --> 00:33:31,548
you can, we can use the blockchain for transparency in government.

584
00:33:32,108 --> 00:33:35,748
And I'm like, I don't think the problem is a lack of ability to be transparent.

585
00:33:35,748 --> 00:33:37,898
It's the lack of want to be transparent.

586
00:33:38,158 --> 00:33:41,098
Like governments can publish what they spend.

587
00:33:41,868 --> 00:33:43,428
You don't need technology for that.

588
00:33:44,428 --> 00:33:45,568
Do governments want to do that?

589
00:33:45,568 --> 00:33:45,788
No.

590
00:33:46,477 --> 00:33:50,117
and so there was just like, I was just, I saw so much noise and I

591
00:33:50,117 --> 00:33:52,967
didn't really get to the Bitcoin narrative at that point in time.

592
00:33:53,387 --> 00:33:58,267
Um, I didn't really understand that people I was with were not Bitcoiners,

593
00:33:58,307 --> 00:33:59,687
they were like crypto people.

594
00:33:59,687 --> 00:34:01,867
And then I'd like left Goldman.

595
00:34:01,867 --> 00:34:03,007
I was totally burnt out.

596
00:34:03,037 --> 00:34:05,927
I was like, I do not have, I don't want to think about finance ever again.

597
00:34:06,247 --> 00:34:09,587
I'm just going to go and travel and like live in the forest.

598
00:34:09,727 --> 00:34:10,447
And right.

599
00:34:10,907 --> 00:34:17,347
Um, anyway, long story short, um, I ended up, uh, it was really, I guess, in sort

600
00:34:17,347 --> 00:34:22,711
of The last few years, really talking a lot to Jeff, and, and Nico and that

601
00:34:22,731 --> 00:34:27,091
whole conversation we started to have around the fund and then really realizing,

602
00:34:27,551 --> 00:34:31,201
I think that's what really got me was realizing that Bitcoin was this, you

603
00:34:31,201 --> 00:34:32,631
know, potential solution to all of this.

604
00:34:32,946 --> 00:34:36,526
These things that I had been so passionate about for such a long time.

605
00:34:36,988 --> 00:34:40,368
and then I think it was really during the pandemic also,

606
00:34:40,750 --> 00:34:43,050
that opened my eyes a lot too.

607
00:34:43,100 --> 00:34:46,200
I'd always looked at governance and corruption and blah, blah, blah, like

608
00:34:46,290 --> 00:34:47,810
as an emerging market phenomenon.

609
00:34:48,422 --> 00:34:49,262
that's what I'd been studying.

610
00:34:49,262 --> 00:34:51,672
I'm not sure if you're, you're familiar with the work of Paul Collier.

611
00:34:51,922 --> 00:34:54,902
There's a great book, Wars, Guns and Votes, which is very influential in

612
00:34:54,982 --> 00:34:59,222
my sort of journey around, um, it's called Democracy in Dangerous Places.

613
00:34:59,222 --> 00:35:02,969
It's really looking at, Basically, what does quote unquote

614
00:35:02,969 --> 00:35:04,349
democracy look like in Africa?

615
00:35:04,796 --> 00:35:06,626
and it's not democracy, long story short.

616
00:35:06,923 --> 00:35:10,903
and then it was really in 2020 that there was this outrageous

617
00:35:10,923 --> 00:35:12,233
things happening in the world.

618
00:35:12,253 --> 00:35:15,983
And I was like, wait, I think all of that narrative is also.

619
00:35:16,648 --> 00:35:20,288
I think all of that applies to the countries I live in as well, like the US

620
00:35:20,288 --> 00:35:22,048
and Australia, which was like, wait, why?

621
00:35:22,048 --> 00:35:23,998
It was such a, like, a light bulb moment for me.

622
00:35:24,528 --> 00:35:29,388
And so I think those two factors of seeing then Bitcoin really solving a problem for

623
00:35:29,388 --> 00:35:34,078
emerging markets, but also over a longer term, you know, these deep structural

624
00:35:34,078 --> 00:35:37,551
issues we have in, In the West as well.

625
00:35:37,961 --> 00:35:41,471
And I think the third factor is the environmental point.

626
00:35:41,591 --> 00:35:45,121
So I'm, you know, deeply passionate about the environment.

627
00:35:46,101 --> 00:35:49,141
Like, it horrifies me that we cut down all growth forests.

628
00:35:49,741 --> 00:35:54,531
I love hiking, camping, you know, being in nature so much and just seeing this

629
00:35:54,701 --> 00:35:56,731
destruction globally of what's going on.

630
00:35:56,731 --> 00:36:00,901
And it's driven by this ever consuming, ever, ever increasing consumption.

631
00:36:01,776 --> 00:36:04,536
And it's horrifying to me just seeing the amount of consumption

632
00:36:04,556 --> 00:36:06,276
and waste that we have in the world.

633
00:36:06,276 --> 00:36:10,606
And it's just like, it's so out of harmony with how the world should

634
00:36:10,606 --> 00:36:15,799
operate, and with how, like, a society and a people in harmony with nature

635
00:36:15,799 --> 00:36:19,999
are ultimately a happy and, you know, thriving, functioning society.

636
00:36:20,009 --> 00:36:20,579
And we're not.

637
00:36:21,149 --> 00:36:22,159
And why is that?

638
00:36:22,779 --> 00:36:25,919
And so for me, then, you know, I guess that was a really another, another

639
00:36:25,919 --> 00:36:30,199
thing that I really resonated with around the big, you know, what people

640
00:36:30,199 --> 00:36:35,249
talk about in Bitcoin of, of this inflationary monetary system driving

641
00:36:35,339 --> 00:36:37,259
ever, ever increasing consumption.

642
00:36:37,589 --> 00:36:38,409
That is just.

643
00:36:39,589 --> 00:36:40,389
Not sustainable.

644
00:36:40,389 --> 00:36:42,179
And that's ultimately what's destroying our planet.

645
00:36:42,769 --> 00:36:45,389
and, you know, things being way cheaper than they should be because we're

646
00:36:45,389 --> 00:36:47,609
on borrowed money and borrowed time.

647
00:36:48,451 --> 00:36:51,191
and so, yeah, that that's I, I think it's interesting because so

648
00:36:51,191 --> 00:36:54,881
many environmentalists are against Bitcoin and, you know, some interest

649
00:36:54,921 --> 00:36:56,251
groups have done a great job.

650
00:36:56,945 --> 00:37:00,059
of, creating a narrative that Bitcoin is bad for the environment.

651
00:37:00,059 --> 00:37:01,679
And I think that's actually really sad.

652
00:37:01,839 --> 00:37:05,399
And I would, I really want to see that change because to me, it's like

653
00:37:05,399 --> 00:37:09,789
actually this root, root cause of the problem in our monetary system today.

654
00:37:10,551 --> 00:37:11,211
That was a long answer.

655
00:37:12,571 --> 00:37:13,301
No, that's, uh,

656
00:37:13,531 --> 00:37:19,691
I mean, I love all the other, um, the, all the other, uh, um, arguments

657
00:37:19,691 --> 00:37:23,901
for why Bitcoin is good for the environment that you can like use it as

658
00:37:23,901 --> 00:37:28,581
a suspension mechanism for, for energy that would otherwise have been wasted.

659
00:37:29,001 --> 00:37:33,751
And you can put, uh, power plants in remote locations, as long as you have

660
00:37:33,751 --> 00:37:36,671
a mining rig, all of this great stuff.

661
00:37:37,141 --> 00:37:42,581
But the, the, the real core thing that I seldomly hear argued for is like, yeah,

662
00:37:42,581 --> 00:37:47,901
but the big, the, the really big thing here is that it's anti consumerist.

663
00:37:47,941 --> 00:37:52,261
Like you will sell all your chairs and, and only, like, at some point you

664
00:37:52,261 --> 00:37:56,691
come to this, that which you can do without your own insights where, where,

665
00:37:56,811 --> 00:37:58,591
where you're not a materialist anymore.

666
00:37:58,671 --> 00:38:00,981
You don't crave a ton of shit.

667
00:38:00,981 --> 00:38:04,529
You'll, you'll be, nothing and be happy.

668
00:38:04,529 --> 00:38:10,176
That's the That's where the vectors are pointing!

669
00:38:10,326 --> 00:38:10,506
Yeah.

670
00:38:11,466 --> 00:38:13,306
I think we all just want to like, get back to a life

671
00:38:13,306 --> 00:38:17,261
where we live like in a little cottage in nature and We have family and

672
00:38:17,261 --> 00:38:20,871
community around us and that's like, and we have a purpose and we work and

673
00:38:20,881 --> 00:38:22,541
that's ultimately what makes us happy.

674
00:38:24,021 --> 00:38:28,296
But it's kind of crazy that that's a privilege now reserved for like, The

675
00:38:28,296 --> 00:38:30,026
few rich people that can afford it.

676
00:38:30,529 --> 00:38:30,889
Yeah.

677
00:38:31,429 --> 00:38:32,009
It's, uh,

678
00:38:32,039 --> 00:38:32,929
yeah, clown world.

679
00:38:33,149 --> 00:38:34,399
Everything's upside down.

680
00:38:34,859 --> 00:38:39,809
So, your, uh, bio here on Ego Death Capital says Poet

681
00:38:39,859 --> 00:38:41,639
and Consciousness Explorer.

682
00:38:41,669 --> 00:38:46,029
I guess this is, uh, adjacent topics to this living in harmony

683
00:38:46,199 --> 00:38:48,569
with nature and, uh, everything.

684
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,189
Uh, can

685
00:38:50,189 --> 00:38:51,829
you give us a little more about that, please?

686
00:38:53,309 --> 00:38:53,769
Sure.

687
00:38:53,989 --> 00:38:55,249
People don't normally pick up on this.

688
00:38:55,279 --> 00:38:55,709
I love it.

689
00:38:55,789 --> 00:38:56,509
Um,

690
00:38:57,644 --> 00:38:58,459
do I start?

691
00:38:58,479 --> 00:39:04,319
I think, yeah, I, I guess I, I went on what could be called a spiritual journey

692
00:39:04,409 --> 00:39:06,829
over the time after I left Goldman.

693
00:39:07,845 --> 00:39:11,015
I think that's a little cliched term, so I don't love to use it,

694
00:39:11,045 --> 00:39:12,975
but it is relatively accurate.

695
00:39:13,609 --> 00:39:19,209
I also actually, I, I grew up sort of in my younger years in a, in a

696
00:39:19,249 --> 00:39:22,679
somewhat, in a, in a, I guess, a spiritual community in Sydney as well.

697
00:39:22,729 --> 00:39:26,249
So there was this kind of somehow imprinted on me in some way

698
00:39:26,249 --> 00:39:27,859
or another, um, we left that.

699
00:39:27,859 --> 00:39:32,709
So I wasn't involved in that for most of my life, but it is sort of the way I was

700
00:39:32,709 --> 00:39:34,749
raised for the early years of my life.

701
00:39:35,555 --> 00:39:36,215
I think just.

702
00:39:37,570 --> 00:39:42,590
most of us on a day to day basis, we're working, we have a family, and we don't

703
00:39:42,770 --> 00:39:47,080
necessarily have the time to like deeply contemplate the nature of existence, but

704
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:52,500
I was really lucky and privileged to be able to explore that and to take time

705
00:39:52,500 --> 00:39:58,123
off work at a relatively young age and be able to just, spend time You know,

706
00:39:58,433 --> 00:40:03,643
deeply contemplating that question and learning from, you know, some of the, the,

707
00:40:03,703 --> 00:40:08,133
the, the deepest spiritual traditions, um, in the world, um, particularly,

708
00:40:08,566 --> 00:40:12,126
I spent time up in Northern, Northern India, um, in Dharamshala or in the

709
00:40:12,126 --> 00:40:16,821
Himalayas, um, Studying Buddhism, um, not, not a huge amount of time,

710
00:40:16,821 --> 00:40:18,121
but it was very, very transformative.

711
00:40:18,161 --> 00:40:21,041
The time I had there, that was some of the happiest I've been talking

712
00:40:21,041 --> 00:40:22,381
about, like having no possessions.

713
00:40:22,481 --> 00:40:24,161
Like, they took our phones away from us.

714
00:40:24,171 --> 00:40:26,711
Everything had a tiny little cell.

715
00:40:26,741 --> 00:40:31,981
Like, it was literally like a tiny bedroom with like, one little bed and that was it.

716
00:40:32,351 --> 00:40:33,491
And it was like, amazing.

717
00:40:33,501 --> 00:40:35,221
It's just like, so great.

718
00:40:36,912 --> 00:40:40,772
I think I, so I've been, I think, and then when you start learning from all

719
00:40:40,772 --> 00:40:43,112
the different deep spiritual traditions, there's this process There's this big

720
00:40:43,122 --> 00:40:48,062
difference between the core mystical truths of a religion that I view as

721
00:40:48,322 --> 00:40:53,652
effectively the same, um, and maybe what gets expressed and brought out into what

722
00:40:53,662 --> 00:40:58,482
you would call a religion with rituals and rules and, and is sort of then

723
00:40:58,582 --> 00:41:04,012
separated from, from you as having that, you know, universal source or God or

724
00:41:04,012 --> 00:41:05,762
whatever you want to call it inside you.

725
00:41:06,262 --> 00:41:11,072
And so I think as, as, as I've had the time to sort of

726
00:41:11,072 --> 00:41:13,442
experience and understand, um.

727
00:41:13,937 --> 00:41:17,257
You know, a variety of wisdom traditions, indigenous traditions from around

728
00:41:17,257 --> 00:41:19,327
the world, you know, and spiritual.

729
00:41:19,731 --> 00:41:20,501
it's sort of a

730
00:41:21,621 --> 00:41:23,971
conclusion I've come to, if I can call it that.

731
00:41:23,971 --> 00:41:24,518
I

732
00:41:24,632 --> 00:41:30,562
I mean, my, my spiritual journey, I, I, I would say Bitcoin played a big part of it.

733
00:41:30,782 --> 00:41:35,042
Uh, I'm, uh, I've done a bit of meditation and, uh, like.

734
00:41:35,982 --> 00:41:40,542
Spent quite some time trying to, like, learn more about myself, and, uh, I'm

735
00:41:40,542 --> 00:41:45,622
not a religious person by any stretch of the imagination, but what I can

736
00:41:45,622 --> 00:41:51,612
say is whenever you're in a creative process and you're creating something,

737
00:41:51,612 --> 00:41:57,407
whether it's a text or a song, and you really feel like In the moment creating

738
00:41:57,407 --> 00:42:01,557
something, uh, especially in a live environment, when you're jamming music

739
00:42:01,557 --> 00:42:07,957
with people or something, it does feel like the song or whatever is not in

740
00:42:07,957 --> 00:42:11,087
your head, but in the room around you and that you're channeling something

741
00:42:11,517 --> 00:42:13,747
and the writing can feel like that too.

742
00:42:14,327 --> 00:42:15,917
I don't believe that's the case.

743
00:42:15,917 --> 00:42:20,617
I believe that that is just tapping into your unconscious or your subconscious

744
00:42:21,177 --> 00:42:26,207
mind, but it certainly feels like, uh, like it's an outside force.

745
00:42:27,272 --> 00:42:28,182
So that's what I can

746
00:42:28,182 --> 00:42:29,152
say about that, I guess.

747
00:42:30,072 --> 00:42:30,682
What are your thoughts?

748
00:42:31,226 --> 00:42:31,866
mean, from

749
00:42:32,156 --> 00:42:35,876
most, most, most deep spiritual traditions would say that

750
00:42:35,946 --> 00:42:40,316
effectively every human being is an incarnation of the universal source.

751
00:42:40,796 --> 00:42:46,996
So, um, in Hinduism, they would, I have to remember, Brahma is basically.

752
00:42:47,671 --> 00:42:50,781
The universal source, universal consciousness, and then the

753
00:42:50,811 --> 00:42:54,511
Atman is effectively the, the individual incarnation of that.

754
00:42:54,841 --> 00:43:01,041
And so we are all effectively connected, um, to, we are, we're all just part of

755
00:43:01,071 --> 00:43:07,377
this, like, universal experience of the world and, that each of us are effectively

756
00:43:08,357 --> 00:43:10,047
The universe become conscious that

757
00:43:10,897 --> 00:43:11,197
if you

758
00:43:11,967 --> 00:43:15,917
are in this deep thinking of like, okay, why am I here?

759
00:43:15,927 --> 00:43:18,267
Like, what am I supposed to be doing in the world?

760
00:43:18,277 --> 00:43:20,977
And then it's like, well, to understand that I need to understand,

761
00:43:20,987 --> 00:43:23,162
like, Why are humans here?

762
00:43:23,462 --> 00:43:26,092
Like, if I'm part of humanity, like, why are humans?

763
00:43:26,462 --> 00:43:30,772
Okay, then if I need to understand that, well, okay, why is life?

764
00:43:31,092 --> 00:43:32,152
Why does life exist?

765
00:43:32,442 --> 00:43:35,652
Like, and then you're like, okay, well, why does the world exist?

766
00:43:35,702 --> 00:43:36,862
Then you're like, why does the universe exist?

767
00:43:37,902 --> 00:43:39,412
So it's like, you keep coming back.

768
00:43:39,702 --> 00:43:43,432
I think why did the universe exist is a very complicated question that I have

769
00:43:43,432 --> 00:43:48,302
no insight into, but Why life exists to me is sort of like this way that

770
00:43:48,872 --> 00:43:50,762
consciousness gets to experience itself.

771
00:43:50,772 --> 00:43:54,742
It's almost like if someone create, you know, if a tree falls in the

772
00:43:54,742 --> 00:43:55,942
forest, does it make a sound?

773
00:43:55,942 --> 00:43:58,602
Well, it doesn't if there's no one here that hear it.

774
00:43:58,982 --> 00:44:02,722
And so if you know, the universe, actually, it's like this, this way

775
00:44:02,722 --> 00:44:04,997
of the universe experiencing itself.

776
00:44:05,523 --> 00:44:09,913
and so each of us is sort of on this journey in life through, of

777
00:44:09,913 --> 00:44:16,293
consciousness through being able to sort of simultaneously be aware of the

778
00:44:16,293 --> 00:44:19,503
universal consciousness at the same time being the universal consciousness.

779
00:44:20,173 --> 00:44:24,043
And that's a very, very difficult journey to, to tread because of, you know, a

780
00:44:24,043 --> 00:44:27,773
whole variety of, you know, A kind of evolutionary biology perspective is

781
00:44:27,773 --> 00:44:29,933
like the process of becoming conscious.

782
00:44:29,943 --> 00:44:31,063
So an animal, right?

783
00:44:31,103 --> 00:44:32,213
They're generally pretty happy.

784
00:44:32,213 --> 00:44:33,143
They just live in the world.

785
00:44:33,143 --> 00:44:34,033
I have squirrels here.

786
00:44:34,033 --> 00:44:37,723
They just love, they play, but are they deeply aware of themself?

787
00:44:38,113 --> 00:44:38,523
Like, no.

788
00:44:38,523 --> 00:44:42,893
And so that process of like, that jump in consciousness to becoming conscious

789
00:44:42,943 --> 00:44:46,290
is inherently, painful and complicated.

790
00:44:46,290 --> 00:44:51,645
And that's what creates a lot of like, Human, the human suffering as the, as the

791
00:44:51,645 --> 00:44:57,532
Buddhists would say, suffering is inherent in life in the nature of our existence.

792
00:44:58,054 --> 00:45:00,124
but I think that's the journey more and is to be able to just

793
00:45:00,184 --> 00:45:03,894
experience it deeply and experience.

794
00:45:05,074 --> 00:45:09,724
Everything that comes and not get attached and not, not, not rejecting

795
00:45:09,724 --> 00:45:11,284
things and just being in the flow.

796
00:45:11,284 --> 00:45:14,184
And then I think when you can do that, you have these moments, like

797
00:45:14,184 --> 00:45:17,584
what you said of creativity, where you're just purely in that flow.

798
00:45:17,584 --> 00:45:21,264
You're purely in that pure expression of consciousness.

799
00:45:21,314 --> 00:45:24,114
There's nothing, there's no thoughts, there's no preconceptions,

800
00:45:24,154 --> 00:45:26,024
there's no fear, there's no judgment getting in the way.

801
00:45:26,024 --> 00:45:28,954
You're able to just like simply be and simply express.

802
00:45:29,784 --> 00:45:33,684
And I think a lot of musicians, creators, entrepreneurs, like have that experience.

803
00:45:34,390 --> 00:45:38,970
And for me, my journey is like, how do I actually be in that all day, every day?

804
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,170
And you don't, you get knocked out, like, but it's like, how

805
00:45:42,170 --> 00:45:46,400
can I live the life that is like naturally springing up within me?

806
00:45:46,630 --> 00:45:50,140
And there's a great quote from, from, from Hermann Hesse, who's a German author.

807
00:45:50,650 --> 00:45:53,770
He wrote Siddhartha, but this quote is from Demian and I have to remember it,

808
00:45:53,770 --> 00:45:57,410
but it's all I was, I think it's something like all I was doing was trying to live

809
00:45:57,420 --> 00:45:59,230
the life that was welling up within me.

810
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:00,720
Why was that so difficult?

811
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:03,360
And that resonates to me so much.

812
00:46:03,420 --> 00:46:04,930
It's like, why is it so difficult?

813
00:46:05,150 --> 00:46:09,880
It's like, um, anyway, it's kind of like the

814
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,080
journey I'm on right now, at least.

815
00:46:12,825 --> 00:46:13,475
Fascinating.

816
00:46:13,725 --> 00:46:19,115
I mean, I've had such great conversations with Jeff about stuff

817
00:46:19,115 --> 00:46:22,345
like this before, so it's fascinating to hear your perspective on it.

818
00:46:22,465 --> 00:46:23,395
Absolutely.

819
00:46:24,025 --> 00:46:30,395
And yeah, as you say, we are the universe experiencing itself to a certain extent.

820
00:46:30,855 --> 00:46:37,550
We can't I mean, the molecules in our body, the atoms, some of them are born,

821
00:46:38,050 --> 00:46:43,544
well, most of them, all of them, are born, when stars explode, like, uh, and

822
00:46:43,544 --> 00:46:48,154
the really heavier elements need a really big star to explode, and then those

823
00:46:48,204 --> 00:46:53,499
atoms get scattered around the universe, and, uh, They make up what we are, so

824
00:46:53,509 --> 00:46:59,824
we are literally the stuff of stars, and I, I, I find this very fascinating, the

825
00:46:59,824 --> 00:47:04,234
whole, like, to which extent the mind creates reality, and to which extent

826
00:47:04,254 --> 00:47:08,193
there is an objective reality, and if the whole objective subjective objective.

827
00:47:08,494 --> 00:47:16,134
Dichotomy is false, if that's also something where our brains created to make

828
00:47:16,154 --> 00:47:20,644
order out of chaos, because we have no way of knowing, and there are so many other

829
00:47:21,444 --> 00:47:28,584
theories, like, um, for instance, there's, uh, Three theories I love about this.

830
00:47:29,034 --> 00:47:33,704
One is the meme theory of everything, which is a way of explaining the

831
00:47:33,714 --> 00:47:37,694
Fermi Paradox, which I'm sure you know of, uh, why we don't hear

832
00:47:37,724 --> 00:47:40,214
about the, from other life forms.

833
00:47:40,614 --> 00:47:44,344
And that is simply because they're too far away, so our minds can't sync with them.

834
00:47:44,484 --> 00:47:48,454
So what we experience, what we call reality, is simply where

835
00:47:48,454 --> 00:47:53,834
our consciousnesses collide, uh, all beings on Earth.

836
00:47:53,944 --> 00:47:59,921
Uh, and what also explain why it's harder to understand a lobster than it

837
00:47:59,921 --> 00:48:01,761
is to understand another human being.

838
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,930
And, uh, even harder to understand an insect.

839
00:48:05,990 --> 00:48:09,920
And I'm not sure that what you said, that other species don't

840
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:11,590
have this consciousness thing.

841
00:48:11,620 --> 00:48:18,581
I mean, whales and stuff have been observed to, at least what we engage

842
00:48:18,581 --> 00:48:23,101
in, at least what we think is deep thinking and, you know, committing

843
00:48:23,101 --> 00:48:24,651
suicide and stuff, which is.

844
00:48:24,931 --> 00:48:29,505
This sort of requires a self reflection, I guess, even though

845
00:48:29,505 --> 00:48:30,775
that's not a happy thought.

846
00:48:31,385 --> 00:48:37,185
Um, the other idea is that consciousness is just one of the, uh, constants in the

847
00:48:37,185 --> 00:48:42,395
universe, and that we're just tapping into something that is already there, uh,

848
00:48:42,895 --> 00:48:48,740
and it's like a base layer, like one of the dimensions, um, And the third theory

849
00:48:48,750 --> 00:48:56,000
is, uh, the, um, just from, uh, this is much more hands on thing about, uh, space

850
00:48:56,020 --> 00:49:00,120
time, space and time being connected in the way that Einstein predicted.

851
00:49:00,690 --> 00:49:05,490
So we know that time flows different speeds in different places in

852
00:49:05,490 --> 00:49:09,800
the universe, which means we, we do experience it subjectively.

853
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:14,710
I mean, here locally on earth, the differences are so small, so we don't

854
00:49:14,710 --> 00:49:17,240
really see it, but it could be that.

855
00:49:18,610 --> 00:49:25,761
For at least a certain time period, the universe is already deterministic,

856
00:49:25,781 --> 00:49:29,881
so it's deterministic on a short scale, but non deterministic on a

857
00:49:29,881 --> 00:49:35,088
longer scale, if that makes any sense, because you could sort of, if you cut

858
00:49:35,118 --> 00:49:40,956
through the nature of space time, you add space to the three dimensions,

859
00:49:40,966 --> 00:49:46,018
so it becomes, a cross section, So a cross section of a four dimensional

860
00:49:46,048 --> 00:49:47,468
thing, what would that look like?

861
00:49:47,758 --> 00:49:51,728
And could that be like the true representation of time?

862
00:49:52,428 --> 00:49:57,748
I'm rambling here, but yeah, I, I love exploring these topics and

863
00:49:57,748 --> 00:49:59,468
I can't stop thinking about them.

864
00:50:00,743 --> 00:50:01,533
It's wonderful.

865
00:50:02,768 --> 00:50:03,308
Mean, I think

866
00:50:03,308 --> 00:50:05,568
a couple, like on the animal thing, I totally agree with you.

867
00:50:05,568 --> 00:50:09,418
I think there are certain animals that potentially For sure animals have

868
00:50:09,418 --> 00:50:14,828
feeling, they have emotion, they have personality, like, my, my question about

869
00:50:14,868 --> 00:50:19,428
animals, even like, like dolphins for instance, are known to like, take drugs,

870
00:50:19,788 --> 00:50:23,358
like, they will get a puffer fish, and they will pass the puffer fish around,

871
00:50:23,368 --> 00:50:27,683
like male tamed dolphins, because it could have been an, like, a poison.

872
00:50:28,163 --> 00:50:29,893
Puts them in an altered state of consciousness.

873
00:50:29,923 --> 00:50:33,243
And there's videos, you can, the dolphins are just like floating like this.

874
00:50:33,283 --> 00:50:34,173
It's hilarious.

875
00:50:34,623 --> 00:50:38,173
Um, and you, you know, you see family bonding, you see love,

876
00:50:38,173 --> 00:50:39,913
you see mourning, you see pain.

877
00:50:42,283 --> 00:50:45,353
Extraordinary level of consciousness, particularly in, you know, whales,

878
00:50:45,383 --> 00:50:49,783
elephants, dolphins, like these larger, more, more advanced species.

879
00:50:50,163 --> 00:50:52,933
Whether they question the nature of their reality, I'm not sure.

880
00:50:52,943 --> 00:50:57,253
Like, do they question who am I and what am I doing in this world?

881
00:50:57,743 --> 00:51:01,013
Like if, if an, if a whale is committed committing suicide,

882
00:51:01,013 --> 00:51:02,303
is that an instinctual thing?

883
00:51:02,303 --> 00:51:05,933
Is that a, like, I think Ka sort of do that as well?

884
00:51:06,326 --> 00:51:10,684
I think they, I think the other side is, I think it's possible that

885
00:51:11,684 --> 00:51:15,764
for our leap to consciousness to occur, it came with a disconnection.

886
00:51:16,139 --> 00:51:18,449
So animals also have superpowers.

887
00:51:18,539 --> 00:51:23,699
If we, as humans, think about how animals work, like, how do whales navigate?

888
00:51:23,699 --> 00:51:26,419
How do turtles come back to the same beach every year?

889
00:51:26,429 --> 00:51:30,409
How do, like, birds migrate across the world and navigate?

890
00:51:30,409 --> 00:51:32,229
Like, we don't actually know how that works.

891
00:51:33,109 --> 00:51:37,209
So, as compared to humans, like, certain animals have these, like,

892
00:51:37,219 --> 00:51:41,569
incredible, like, they know a tsunami is coming, they, animals will flee.

893
00:51:43,059 --> 00:51:46,589
There's, so Rupert Sheldrake talks about this a lot, and there's a book

894
00:51:46,589 --> 00:51:49,549
he wrote about, like, dogs that know their owners are coming home, and they

895
00:51:49,549 --> 00:51:53,579
did all of these experiments, and dogs would know their owner was coming home,

896
00:51:53,609 --> 00:51:57,029
even, like, the owner hadn't left the office, like, it was just an intention,

897
00:51:57,029 --> 00:52:00,609
like, there is no way that the dogs would know that There was no routine, there

898
00:52:00,609 --> 00:52:03,969
was no hearing, like, but they would go to the window and wait for their owner

899
00:52:04,819 --> 00:52:08,519
when the owner had, like, was leaving the office and knew, like, but there's

900
00:52:08,519 --> 00:52:13,009
no way the dogs could have known in the material ways that we view the world.

901
00:52:13,479 --> 00:52:16,829
And so there's like this connection that certain animals have with, you

902
00:52:16,829 --> 00:52:21,709
know, A knowledge or an understanding like this deeper frequency, maybe

903
00:52:21,709 --> 00:52:24,859
you can call it that, of the world that like we are disconnected to.

904
00:52:25,669 --> 00:52:29,729
And then if you start looking at like to your point on like consciousness and what

905
00:52:29,729 --> 00:52:34,079
we're generating, like creating our own reality, and you start like looking into

906
00:52:34,084 --> 00:52:35,909
the quantum physics aspect of things.

907
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:39,379
There's so like, yes, we're made of stars, but equally

908
00:52:39,384 --> 00:52:40,639
we're made of literally nothing.

909
00:52:40,639 --> 00:52:41,094
Like if you keep.

910
00:52:41,654 --> 00:52:45,124
Going into an atom, you keep going, there's like nothing there, and all

911
00:52:45,124 --> 00:52:48,484
there is is a probability function that coalesces when we view it.

912
00:52:48,944 --> 00:52:53,254
And like, so there is like something and everything going

913
00:52:53,254 --> 00:52:54,654
on everywhere all at once.

914
00:52:55,334 --> 00:53:00,574
And we have the ability to perceive certain aspects of that, uh, but

915
00:53:00,574 --> 00:53:04,325
certain aspects, you know, like, uh, like, uh, ultraviolet light,

916
00:53:04,335 --> 00:53:05,675
like, we, we can't perceive.

917
00:53:05,675 --> 00:53:08,215
Now we can do experiments to figure out that it exists.

918
00:53:09,085 --> 00:53:11,335
And we can work with that technology, but like.

919
00:53:11,785 --> 00:53:12,815
We can't perceive it.

920
00:53:12,815 --> 00:53:15,565
And so we're sort of gradually increasing our perception of like

921
00:53:15,565 --> 00:53:18,455
the quote unquote non material realms, if I can call it that.

922
00:53:18,745 --> 00:53:21,140
And from my perspective, like, I think that's what's happening.

923
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:24,880
You know, they exist and I'm fascinated by this sort of the quote

924
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,390
unquote science of consciousness that's emerging with a lot of the

925
00:53:27,430 --> 00:53:29,170
experimentation being done around it.

926
00:53:29,610 --> 00:53:33,770
Um, yeah, anyway, and then I think the alien rabbit hole is fascinating.

927
00:53:33,770 --> 00:53:37,690
So if you keep going down the alien rabbit hole, you get to consciousness.

928
00:53:38,205 --> 00:53:42,065
And that's like, it's, it's like a paranormal phenomena, which is like

929
00:53:42,065 --> 00:53:47,255
a potentially, you know, just a, like a product, like creation of a

930
00:53:47,255 --> 00:53:51,025
mass, like a collective unconscious effectively, or a collective

931
00:53:51,025 --> 00:53:52,665
consciousness that's like creating

932
00:53:52,665 --> 00:53:54,725
this, this, this experience of the world.

933
00:53:55,847 --> 00:53:59,267
There are so many potential solutions to that old paradox.

934
00:54:00,017 --> 00:54:02,757
One thing I'm fascinated by are CAPTCHAs.

935
00:54:04,637 --> 00:54:08,202
Uh, you, you, you get a capture and you, you're supposed to click a

936
00:54:08,202 --> 00:54:12,672
little, uh, tick box, a tick, a little box that says, I am not a robot.

937
00:54:13,432 --> 00:54:19,512
And my instinctual thought is always, how the fuck would I know if I was one?

938
00:54:19,632 --> 00:54:22,152
Like, how can I ever know if I'm a robot?

939
00:54:22,212 --> 00:54:22,962
This is Phil.

940
00:54:23,022 --> 00:54:24,612
This is Philosophy 1 0 1.

941
00:54:24,612 --> 00:54:26,622
Like I can, I cannot know, like it's.

942
00:54:27,187 --> 00:54:32,567
Back to the basic notion of I think therefore some thinking is going

943
00:54:32,567 --> 00:54:35,517
on somewhere, but I can't really prove anything else, so how the

944
00:54:35,517 --> 00:54:36,897
fuck would I know if I'm a robot?

945
00:54:36,897 --> 00:54:38,147
It's part of my French.

946
00:54:39,152 --> 00:54:40,142
I never thought about that.

947
00:54:40,652 --> 00:54:41,032
That's so true.

948
00:54:41,352 --> 00:54:44,252
I'm never going to be able to do a capture again without thinking.

949
00:54:45,829 --> 00:54:50,459
So another point is, is the idea that so a little bit touching on

950
00:54:50,799 --> 00:54:54,449
the mind creating reality and like the the idea of consciousness.

951
00:54:54,469 --> 00:54:59,649
Do you, do you, uh, do you Know anything about, like, sort of the idea that the

952
00:54:59,659 --> 00:55:05,469
brain might make decisions, uh, about 300 milliseconds or something, but before

953
00:55:05,509 --> 00:55:10,049
it actually hits into consciousness, and then this gets into the implications

954
00:55:10,049 --> 00:55:12,239
of does free will actually exist?

955
00:55:13,549 --> 00:55:14,039
Any thoughts

956
00:55:14,039 --> 00:55:14,479
on that?

957
00:55:16,039 --> 00:55:17,979
This is a fascinating conversation I've

958
00:55:17,979 --> 00:55:19,459
had with someone recently.

959
00:55:19,729 --> 00:55:22,719
Uh, we've been having a very deep conversation about the nature of

960
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:23,919
free will and whether it exists.

961
00:55:24,309 --> 00:55:27,759
And yeah, I've heard about this research.

962
00:55:27,759 --> 00:55:29,209
I think it's fascinating.

963
00:55:29,209 --> 00:55:33,631
I've been diving a lot into, the work of Carl Jung in the last few months.

964
00:55:34,361 --> 00:55:37,481
Um, and right now I just started reading this book, which is like, The

965
00:55:37,481 --> 00:55:41,651
letters between Carl Jung and Wolfgang Pauli, who was a quantum physicist.

966
00:55:42,151 --> 00:55:44,171
They actually co wrote a book together.

967
00:55:44,441 --> 00:55:47,081
Anyway, so, and then someone published a collection of their letters.

968
00:55:47,171 --> 00:55:48,851
I think it's fascinating.

969
00:55:49,241 --> 00:55:53,461
But, um, I guess the conversation I've been having around free

970
00:55:53,461 --> 00:55:56,261
will is like, I have no idea.

971
00:55:56,291 --> 00:56:00,121
I mean, at the end of the day, but I think it's possible.

972
00:56:00,141 --> 00:56:04,321
I think we have like certain strategic, like directions in our life.

973
00:56:04,401 --> 00:56:07,931
And, you know, from a Buddhist perspective, they might call it

974
00:56:07,941 --> 00:56:13,971
dharma, in Taoism, they might say you're in, in, you're in, in harmony.

975
00:56:13,971 --> 00:56:16,311
You're basically in line with, with the Dao.

976
00:56:17,191 --> 00:56:18,821
I think in the West, we call it purpose.

977
00:56:19,361 --> 00:56:20,091
And I don't know.

978
00:56:20,091 --> 00:56:21,971
I think my experience of the world is that each of us.

979
00:56:22,331 --> 00:56:26,731
There is some sort of pre programmed life for us in some way.

980
00:56:27,411 --> 00:56:30,711
and then whether we have the ability to influence that or not, I don't know.

981
00:56:30,781 --> 00:56:33,921
Like, you know, 1 argument might be that, which I thought about

982
00:56:33,921 --> 00:56:35,511
is I think sometimes maybe.

983
00:56:37,086 --> 00:56:39,306
There are like certain points along the way where you, it

984
00:56:39,306 --> 00:56:40,536
could be completely random.

985
00:56:40,636 --> 00:56:44,816
And so maybe there is this sort of like random spectrum of outcomes and, you know,

986
00:56:44,816 --> 00:56:49,246
it could be this way or this way and it's a 50 50 probability and it's just random.

987
00:56:49,296 --> 00:56:52,776
So I mean, that doesn't necessarily help with free will, but then I think

988
00:56:52,776 --> 00:56:57,726
there is also this aspect of being able to do the work, you know, really

989
00:56:57,726 --> 00:57:02,646
getting back in touch with, ourselves and getting back in line with the

990
00:57:02,646 --> 00:57:04,996
Tao, coming back to consciousness.

991
00:57:06,079 --> 00:57:10,109
And then being able to, from that really centered, central point, actually being

992
00:57:10,109 --> 00:57:15,763
able to influence things and influence our, our, our role in the world, or at

993
00:57:15,763 --> 00:57:17,483
least be completely in line with it.

994
00:57:17,783 --> 00:57:21,063
And maybe we can't influence our life, but we can influence

995
00:57:21,063 --> 00:57:22,553
our experience of that life.

996
00:57:23,163 --> 00:57:26,113
So we may not be able to control our external circumstances, but we can

997
00:57:26,113 --> 00:57:28,113
control our emotional response to them.

998
00:57:28,493 --> 00:57:32,455
And that comes with a whole host of things of like, challenges with trauma

999
00:57:32,455 --> 00:57:34,065
and subconscious and all of these things.

1000
00:57:34,075 --> 00:57:36,665
So I don't want to bypass and say, Oh, you can just choose to be happy.

1001
00:57:36,665 --> 00:57:41,075
Like, I'm not saying that it's far more complicated than that, but I think we

1002
00:57:41,075 --> 00:57:45,265
have the ability to maybe work internally to change our emotional response to

1003
00:57:45,265 --> 00:57:50,295
things and, um, a book that comes to mind, which, which people might find

1004
00:57:50,295 --> 00:57:54,145
interesting, um, is a book by Viktor Frankl called Man's Search for Meaning.

1005
00:57:54,745 --> 00:57:55,305
Um, yeah.

1006
00:57:55,980 --> 00:57:59,350
Which is about his time in Auschwitz, which I know is a very challenging

1007
00:57:59,350 --> 00:58:01,360
topic for many people, including myself.

1008
00:58:01,860 --> 00:58:08,360
And I really found that book very, I read it, I remember March 2020,

1009
00:58:08,390 --> 00:58:12,780
standing in the airport, like, Could not put that book down, um, despite

1010
00:58:12,780 --> 00:58:14,150
the, the nature of the content.

1011
00:58:14,310 --> 00:58:18,320
Um, and his whole message is, okay, we might not be able to change to

1012
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:22,400
control our reality externally, but we can control, we can choose

1013
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:23,960
how we respond to it emotionally.

1014
00:58:24,870 --> 00:58:26,830
So that's just some of the thoughts I've

1015
00:58:26,830 --> 00:58:28,800
been having around free will lately, but.

1016
00:58:29,586 --> 00:58:34,486
The western philosophy that comes to mind is stoicism and Marcus Aurelius

1017
00:58:34,486 --> 00:58:39,146
and I think he called it being in line with nature and or being in line with

1018
00:58:39,146 --> 00:58:43,496
your nature or something like that is very akin to these Buddhist thoughts.

1019
00:58:44,446 --> 00:58:45,246
Uh, we

1020
00:58:45,256 --> 00:58:45,996
had some other thoughts.

1021
00:58:46,311 --> 00:58:50,291
thinking in that era came out of, because there was deep connections to India.

1022
00:58:50,591 --> 00:58:52,431
And there were also deep connections to Egypt.

1023
00:58:52,681 --> 00:58:57,761
So it's sort of the Egyptian mystical traditions and the Indian

1024
00:58:57,821 --> 00:59:02,831
mystical traditions came, were coming up to, um, which predate,

1025
00:59:03,491 --> 00:59:05,631
like, the sort of Roman philosophy.

1026
00:59:06,121 --> 00:59:09,191
it's sort of, there's this, like, one thread that, like, seems

1027
00:59:09,301 --> 00:59:12,351
to come through.

1028
00:59:13,721 --> 00:59:14,231
Yeah, that's,

1029
00:59:14,241 --> 00:59:15,431
that's the pretty part.

1030
00:59:15,461 --> 00:59:21,091
I mean, uh, Hindu, Hinduism, uh, I think Hinduism gets a pass too often,

1031
00:59:21,101 --> 00:59:25,111
though, for being this, uh, mystical, nice religion with only nice people

1032
00:59:25,111 --> 00:59:27,051
who want no possessions and stuff.

1033
00:59:27,531 --> 00:59:32,111
But the, the, the caste society, like work your ass off and maybe

1034
00:59:32,111 --> 00:59:34,101
you'll get a better life next time.

1035
00:59:34,681 --> 00:59:36,961
That's like the most assholey policy ever.

1036
00:59:37,151 --> 00:59:39,551
Like, uh, it's worse than inflation even.

1037
00:59:40,011 --> 00:59:45,491
Uh, you're, we're, we're the elites and you're not, and that's the way it is.

1038
00:59:46,041 --> 00:59:48,531
Hope for a better chance in the next life.

1039
00:59:48,531 --> 00:59:49,731
I, that's, that's

1040
00:59:51,046 --> 00:59:52,356
Yeah, that's pure evil.

1041
00:59:53,223 --> 00:59:54,203
I don't know if it's evil.

1042
00:59:54,203 --> 00:59:54,593
I think

1043
00:59:54,593 --> 00:59:55,893
it's, I don't know.

1044
00:59:56,043 --> 00:59:57,102
That's another good question.

1045
00:59:57,103 --> 00:59:58,063
The nature of evil.

1046
00:59:58,523 --> 01:00:00,113
A great philosophical question.

1047
01:00:00,173 --> 01:00:04,738
Um, I think it's, It's like the religious expression of what

1048
01:00:04,738 --> 01:00:06,318
was once a core spiritual truth.

1049
01:00:06,378 --> 01:00:09,198
And the same with like all of the religious institutions and

1050
01:00:09,198 --> 01:00:12,268
then the humans that ultimately practice those cultural practices.

1051
01:00:12,888 --> 01:00:15,298
So if you read the Bhagavad Gita, it can be very triggering because

1052
01:00:15,298 --> 01:00:16,598
it talks about caste mixing.

1053
01:00:16,608 --> 01:00:20,913
It talks about, okay, if everything goes, If people are not in line, then

1054
01:00:20,923 --> 01:00:23,603
there's caste mixing as like, that's the worst thing that can happen.

1055
01:00:23,603 --> 01:00:26,673
And so that's like a product of its time.

1056
01:00:26,693 --> 01:00:30,813
And, um, you know, what the Buddha did was really in part

1057
01:00:30,813 --> 01:00:32,303
a reaction to the caste system.

1058
01:00:32,303 --> 01:00:37,833
And so Buddhism was in a way, it's like the successor to Hinduism.

1059
01:00:38,250 --> 01:00:43,114
And it's much more like ascetic, much more, probably more in line with stoicism.

1060
01:00:43,164 --> 01:00:46,334
I have to say I'm not, you know, much more about stoicism and sort

1061
01:00:46,334 --> 01:00:47,614
of Roman philosophy than I do.

1062
01:00:47,614 --> 01:00:52,274
It's an area I'm looking to learn more about, um, but certainly in Buddhism,

1063
01:00:52,274 --> 01:00:53,494
you don't have the caste system.

1064
01:00:53,524 --> 01:00:53,984
You don't.

1065
01:00:54,244 --> 01:00:55,064
It's very different.

1066
01:00:55,074 --> 01:00:59,729
Whereas Hinduism, Okay, people really disagree with me on this, but, like, from

1067
01:00:59,729 --> 01:01:03,879
my perspective, Hinduism got too caught up in the ritual and the trappings of

1068
01:01:04,079 --> 01:01:07,269
spirituality as opposed to the heart of spirituality, and the Bhagavad Gita talks

1069
01:01:07,279 --> 01:01:11,799
about this, that ritual is not, like, if you're relying on ritual, you're out of

1070
01:01:11,809 --> 01:01:17,424
touch, like, ritual is sort of, like, not the core of, like, Spiritual connection

1071
01:01:17,674 --> 01:01:21,014
and Buddhism sort of tried to come back and Buddhism has gotten lost in many ways.

1072
01:01:21,044 --> 01:01:25,344
But, um, yeah, I totally agree with you that the modern expression,

1073
01:01:25,384 --> 01:01:30,939
like, the way that Hinduism got expressed in society was like, Not

1074
01:01:31,449 --> 01:01:32,479
positive in many ways.

1075
01:01:33,219 --> 01:01:33,649
No, well,

1076
01:01:33,649 --> 01:01:39,109
isn't it what always happens, that a very individual spiritual experience,

1077
01:01:40,019 --> 01:01:44,139
maybe there's something about that in the base layers of these religions, but as

1078
01:01:44,139 --> 01:01:49,749
soon as they become organized, they're this collectivist bullshit institution

1079
01:01:49,749 --> 01:01:54,879
instead, somewhere down the line, and it just gets ugly after a while.

1080
01:01:55,419 --> 01:01:57,249
I think that's what happens anyway.

1081
01:01:59,027 --> 01:02:03,317
back to the, um, the consciousness thing, uh, because this is the, the,

1082
01:02:03,477 --> 01:02:06,697
one of the reasons why we bring it up is because we had a conversation

1083
01:02:06,697 --> 01:02:11,907
with Jeff about the nature of, of, um, reality and the nature of consciousness.

1084
01:02:12,272 --> 01:02:15,952
Uh, and then we had sort of a follow up episode with Volker from Germany

1085
01:02:15,952 --> 01:02:21,082
who had, uh, talked a lot about this, how there can be no free will because

1086
01:02:21,082 --> 01:02:23,422
of the, uh, just the arrow of time.

1087
01:02:23,522 --> 01:02:27,432
So it's not only the lag in, in, uh, the 0.

1088
01:02:27,462 --> 01:02:34,521
3 second lag in your conscious experience, but it's also the simple fact that, for an

1089
01:02:34,521 --> 01:02:40,401
entity, for you to choose whatever neurons that happen to pop into your brain, you

1090
01:02:40,401 --> 01:02:44,861
would have to have like a soul outside of that brain making those decisions

1091
01:02:45,181 --> 01:02:51,161
because the, the biological cannot be separated from, like, you, who would

1092
01:02:51,161 --> 01:02:55,741
be the choosing entity and that sort of presupposes that there's something outside

1093
01:02:55,741 --> 01:02:57,391
of yourself making those decisions.

1094
01:02:58,731 --> 01:03:05,411
However, this is, uh, uh, a thing that can't, uh, I can't stop thinking about.

1095
01:03:06,056 --> 01:03:08,586
Quantum entanglement might solve that.

1096
01:03:08,696 --> 01:03:11,236
If quantum, you've heard of quantum entanglement, right?

1097
01:03:11,246 --> 01:03:18,206
So like particles can, uh, be entangled over space, over vast distances, but

1098
01:03:18,206 --> 01:03:20,466
they can also be entangled over time.

1099
01:03:20,946 --> 01:03:25,706
So is there a way for a particle to be entangled to the past?

1100
01:03:25,941 --> 01:03:28,381
in order to make a decision for you in the future.

1101
01:03:28,741 --> 01:03:32,161
So that your brains, that the neurons in your brain are somewhat

1102
01:03:32,401 --> 01:03:36,641
feedbacking back and forth in time in order for you to have free will.

1103
01:03:37,263 --> 01:03:40,693
I think quantum entanglement is, and this is why the whole, like, there was such

1104
01:03:40,713 --> 01:03:42,773
intellectual leap happening in Germany.

1105
01:03:42,783 --> 01:03:43,993
My mom's German actually.

1106
01:03:44,073 --> 01:03:48,723
Um, but happening in Germany in like the 1920s, I think it was the 20s really

1107
01:03:48,733 --> 01:03:53,433
around quantum, quantum, earlier than that, but quantum physics effectively.

1108
01:03:53,433 --> 01:03:56,733
And it just changed the entire paradox of how we understand reality.

1109
01:03:56,733 --> 01:03:57,083
And yet.

1110
01:03:57,348 --> 01:04:00,888
None of that has really filtered into our ordinary understanding

1111
01:04:00,888 --> 01:04:02,108
of how we view the world.

1112
01:04:02,548 --> 01:04:08,218
Um, I think, like, if you think about quantum entanglement, like, the entire

1113
01:04:08,218 --> 01:04:11,348
universe across the entire space of time could be quantum entangled, because if

1114
01:04:11,348 --> 01:04:16,173
it all started at, like, one point, like, effectively, It's all quantum entangles.

1115
01:04:16,223 --> 01:04:22,133
And another way that you might call, okay, it's like ways I think about it, like, the

1116
01:04:22,133 --> 01:04:26,653
university is connected in ways we don't understand, like, maybe at some point

1117
01:04:26,653 --> 01:04:30,433
in the future, we will figure it out the same way we figured out radio waves and

1118
01:04:30,903 --> 01:04:33,013
spectrum and frequency and all of that.

1119
01:04:33,163 --> 01:04:34,283
Maybe we'll figure it out.

1120
01:04:34,283 --> 01:04:36,283
But right now we don't understand it.

1121
01:04:36,283 --> 01:04:39,762
But I think there is enough Transcribed There's a lot of evidence that there

1122
01:04:39,762 --> 01:04:43,274
are ways the universe is connected, whether it's past and future, whether

1123
01:04:43,274 --> 01:04:47,073
it's like across space, across time, um, that we don't understand.

1124
01:04:47,073 --> 01:04:51,203
And there are proposals like what's called a Noosphere, N O O S P H E

1125
01:04:51,203 --> 01:04:55,141
R E, which, um, is this proposal.

1126
01:04:55,141 --> 01:04:56,351
It's effectively the ether.

1127
01:04:56,471 --> 01:04:58,361
Like, you know, we used to have five elements.

1128
01:04:59,421 --> 01:05:02,441
You know, earth, wind, fire, and water, and the ether.

1129
01:05:02,801 --> 01:05:06,281
Now, scientific theory has figured out that we have four states of matter.

1130
01:05:06,311 --> 01:05:12,041
We have solid, liquid, gas, and plasma, but it sort of got rid of the ether.

1131
01:05:12,041 --> 01:05:15,601
And yet, if you bring back this concept of an ether, of some, you know, some,

1132
01:05:15,921 --> 01:05:19,151
something that connects everything in a way we don't necessarily understand,

1133
01:05:19,656 --> 01:05:24,466
It actually sort of starts, potentially starts to, to fill in some of those gaps

1134
01:05:24,686 --> 01:05:26,496
in our understanding and what that is.

1135
01:05:26,496 --> 01:05:26,816
I don't know.

1136
01:05:26,816 --> 01:05:29,866
I think the way you explained it is super interesting, um, that there

1137
01:05:29,866 --> 01:05:33,776
are like previous versions of ourself that are influencing our decisions

1138
01:05:33,776 --> 01:05:35,426
today from a quantum perspective.

1139
01:05:35,476 --> 01:05:37,416
Like, that's fascinating.

1140
01:05:38,125 --> 01:05:42,555
yeah, there's this called, there's Noetic Sciences in the US, um, Ions,

1141
01:05:42,575 --> 01:05:45,755
and they have this big conscious conference in a couple of weeks,

1142
01:05:45,755 --> 01:05:47,285
the Science of Consciousness, which.

1143
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:51,350
Has like fascinating speakers, which I think I will watch some

1144
01:05:51,350 --> 01:05:52,830
of remotely if I'm able to.

1145
01:05:53,376 --> 01:05:57,266
yeah, the other, Rupert Sheldrake calls it a morphic, morphic field, like morphic

1146
01:05:57,276 --> 01:06:00,816
resonance fields, and that you can, like, start creating and influencing

1147
01:06:00,816 --> 01:06:02,076
these morphic resonance fields.

1148
01:06:02,106 --> 01:06:07,886
So there's a lot of, like, different, um, ideas around, around the noosphere or the

1149
01:06:07,886 --> 01:06:10,576
morphic resonance field or consciousness.

1150
01:06:11,626 --> 01:06:12,766
Which I'm just learning about.

1151
01:06:12,866 --> 01:06:15,116
I think it's like, fascinating.

1152
01:06:15,948 --> 01:06:18,438
So, uh, we, we, we have to, we have to wrap up within the

1153
01:06:18,438 --> 01:06:20,058
next 25 minutes or so here.

1154
01:06:20,058 --> 01:06:24,968
So maybe we can, we should start gearing slightly towards a, a

1155
01:06:24,968 --> 01:06:26,528
conclusion to the conversation.

1156
01:06:26,533 --> 01:06:28,958
But, uh, but I know we'll, we'll have to, we'll have to do this again.

1157
01:06:28,958 --> 01:06:34,178
Uh, great to connect on, uh, uh, so many, uh, different, different levels.

1158
01:06:34,208 --> 01:06:34,748
Uh, here.

1159
01:06:35,048 --> 01:06:38,303
Uh, I, I really liked, uh, the, the, and the.

1160
01:06:38,873 --> 01:06:43,473
Uh, Viktor Frankl there, um, I've, I've had a whole journey

1161
01:06:43,473 --> 01:06:47,593
with, with Jung through, through Jordan Peterson's maps of meaning.

1162
01:06:47,593 --> 01:06:52,543
I've been doing a, a whole series on, on that with, with, uh, Rob Breedlove

1163
01:06:52,593 --> 01:06:56,533
lately, and that book is just, yeah, something, something totally different.

1164
01:06:56,533 --> 01:07:00,293
I don't pretend to defend the guy on it, like what he does publicly

1165
01:07:00,293 --> 01:07:04,013
these days, but, uh, yeah, some, some good stuff there about the,

1166
01:07:04,023 --> 01:07:06,483
the whole kind of meaning angle.

1167
01:07:06,503 --> 01:07:11,140
So we might have to dig into that again another time, but, uh, yeah,

1168
01:07:11,210 --> 01:07:18,043
I just wanted to get back a little bit to, uh, what, what are you and,

1169
01:07:18,273 --> 01:07:25,008
I guess, EgoDeath, Actually, we never got into the name of EgoDeath, so

1170
01:07:25,508 --> 01:07:26,918
that would be a good one if you could

1171
01:07:26,918 --> 01:07:27,758
explain that.

1172
01:07:28,465 --> 01:07:29,545
Yeah, it's kind of

1173
01:07:29,545 --> 01:07:29,915
amazing.

1174
01:07:29,915 --> 01:07:33,285
We had this idea around creating the fun name, and I'll tell you a little

1175
01:07:33,285 --> 01:07:35,845
bit more, and then it's, what's been fascinating, after we named it

1176
01:07:35,845 --> 01:07:38,875
EgoDeath, it was sort of a, we're like, well, let's just see how it goes.

1177
01:07:38,885 --> 01:07:42,715
It's pretty controversial, but, um, and it's been great.

1178
01:07:43,335 --> 01:07:46,095
And that's like, the meaning has unfolded over time almost.

1179
01:07:47,025 --> 01:07:50,965
So the idea came really, we were thinking about this transition we're going through

1180
01:07:50,965 --> 01:07:56,195
in the world from a very centralized, um, you know, model of society of money

1181
01:07:56,465 --> 01:07:59,965
to something that's decentralized and like this big shift that was happening

1182
01:07:59,965 --> 01:08:01,375
and how difficult that would be.

1183
01:08:01,695 --> 01:08:03,455
And so it's sort of like thinking that's sort of what we

1184
01:08:03,455 --> 01:08:04,565
wanted to represent was this.

1185
01:08:04,765 --> 01:08:10,155
Like, this huge, you know, shift where we were going from sort of each thinking

1186
01:08:10,155 --> 01:08:14,045
we're an individual to being part of something bigger than ourselves,

1187
01:08:14,045 --> 01:08:17,365
being Bitcoin and contributing to that from a very centralized ego

1188
01:08:17,365 --> 01:08:20,315
based model to something that's decentralized, community oriented.

1189
01:08:20,675 --> 01:08:23,975
And so, as we were talking about these, this sort of concept of ego death came

1190
01:08:23,975 --> 01:08:28,645
up of, like, we're having to shift from being an individual to being a collective.

1191
01:08:29,370 --> 01:08:32,180
And so that's kind of really where the name came from, you know, from

1192
01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:36,150
the background of, of psychedelics and meditation and these experiences that,

1193
01:08:36,220 --> 01:08:40,280
that, that are very, very profound of, of, of going from this individual

1194
01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:44,110
ego consciousness to, you know, experiencing collective consciousness

1195
01:08:44,110 --> 01:08:45,570
or, or, or pure consciousness.

1196
01:08:46,301 --> 01:08:49,481
and, but what's unfolded is like these layers of meaning in it.

1197
01:08:49,491 --> 01:08:54,831
So then we think about Satoshi, you know, creating Bitcoin and then anonymously and

1198
01:08:54,831 --> 01:08:59,271
leaving as sort of his ultimate act of ego death, but there was no ego involved.

1199
01:08:59,271 --> 01:09:00,631
He wanted nothing from it.

1200
01:09:00,641 --> 01:09:01,481
Like he's never.

1201
01:09:02,111 --> 01:09:05,451
You know, extracted a, you know, Satoshi from his savings.

1202
01:09:05,451 --> 01:09:07,101
And so that's one aspect.

1203
01:09:07,131 --> 01:09:09,381
And I think that's, you know, there's something that's so special about

1204
01:09:09,411 --> 01:09:11,041
Bitcoin that can't be replicated.

1205
01:09:11,201 --> 01:09:17,431
Like no other, no other chain can ever basically, I mean, at some point, but

1206
01:09:17,431 --> 01:09:21,031
like for that to really happen, like that's such a special thing about Bitcoin.

1207
01:09:22,028 --> 01:09:26,648
then we also think about ego death is, is you're, you're breaking

1208
01:09:26,648 --> 01:09:30,913
away or, or, uh, Or releasing the fixed ways in which you see the

1209
01:09:30,913 --> 01:09:32,923
world and seeing it as it truly is.

1210
01:09:33,513 --> 01:09:36,623
So, you know, and I think that's so related to Bitcoin because you're

1211
01:09:36,633 --> 01:09:40,873
actually having to question all of your ways that you see the world, give them

1212
01:09:40,873 --> 01:09:45,253
up, like, release the neurons in your brain, if you like, and, and to see

1213
01:09:45,253 --> 01:09:48,863
reality as it truly is and be able to see something, something so different.

1214
01:09:49,527 --> 01:09:52,597
And we use it as, as sort of an internal guide, you know, we try and

1215
01:09:52,597 --> 01:09:56,947
I, it's not possible all the time, but we really try and sort of have this,

1216
01:09:56,947 --> 01:09:58,877
like, no ego, no bullshit approach.

1217
01:09:59,187 --> 01:10:01,277
Um, sorry, excuse my, my language.

1218
01:10:01,577 --> 01:10:03,897
Um, and that's what we look for in founders.

1219
01:10:04,117 --> 01:10:06,077
It's not always, you know, all of us are human.

1220
01:10:06,087 --> 01:10:06,817
We do our best.

1221
01:10:08,707 --> 01:10:11,197
We try and fail and that's okay.

1222
01:10:11,267 --> 01:10:13,777
Um, but it is sort of like a nice guiding principle that

1223
01:10:13,777 --> 01:10:15,157
we try and operate as a team.

1224
01:10:15,157 --> 01:10:16,657
We try and do things together.

1225
01:10:16,802 --> 01:10:21,182
We support each other, um, and so it's sort of been that,

1226
01:10:21,262 --> 01:10:22,652
yeah, so it's multi layered and

1227
01:10:22,662 --> 01:10:24,362
still kind of uncovering it, I would say.

1228
01:10:25,036 --> 01:10:25,676
Yeah, this is,

1229
01:10:25,706 --> 01:10:27,026
this is fascinating topic.

1230
01:10:27,056 --> 01:10:30,836
We've been talking to other guests about this and I just can't help

1231
01:10:30,846 --> 01:10:35,656
because I think it's my skeptic nature that brought me to Bitcoin.

1232
01:10:35,866 --> 01:10:40,616
So, and my skeptic nature tells me that there's something off about

1233
01:10:40,616 --> 01:10:45,236
this whole, uh, Satoshi being this messianic figure that did the

1234
01:10:45,236 --> 01:10:47,876
ultimate act of self sacrifice.

1235
01:10:49,036 --> 01:10:55,036
I mean, I, as much as I love that story and I wish it to be true, we have no idea.

1236
01:10:55,401 --> 01:10:58,001
Of knowing whether it's actually true or not.

1237
01:10:58,431 --> 01:11:02,361
Satoshi could have just been hit by the bus and died the day after he sent this

1238
01:11:02,361 --> 01:11:07,131
last message, or Satoshi could still be around and be a nym and maybe he mined

1239
01:11:07,151 --> 01:11:13,101
the next million Bitcoin and he ran away with those, like there's, uh, there are

1240
01:11:13,101 --> 01:11:15,781
so many other possible futures here.

1241
01:11:16,211 --> 01:11:22,111
Or possible like explanations to that story that I have, like, I think it's,

1242
01:11:22,111 --> 01:11:29,491
uh, There is some danger in, in, uh, uh, painting this picture of this, uh, ego

1243
01:11:29,491 --> 01:11:35,761
less human being, uh, this is the slay your heroes thing, like, even Satoshi

1244
01:11:36,571 --> 01:11:42,611
would have to be someone we are willing to sacrifice on an altar for the sake of,

1245
01:11:42,701 --> 01:11:46,081
of the idea, uh, rather than the person.

1246
01:11:46,431 --> 01:11:48,891
That is, to me, that's like the, the core.

1247
01:11:49,211 --> 01:11:55,761
Nobody cares who, uh, who, um, uh, Pythagoras was, uh, uh, as a person.

1248
01:11:55,761 --> 01:11:58,431
Everyone cares about his equation.

1249
01:11:58,981 --> 01:12:03,241
So I think that's sort of how we ought to view Satoshi as well.

1250
01:12:03,271 --> 01:12:09,891
Uh, do you see a danger in this, uh, like viewing, um, Satoshis sacrifice as

1251
01:12:09,891 --> 01:12:14,151
that, when there's not a hundred percent proof that it actually was a sacrificial

1252
01:12:14,156 --> 01:12:14,481
thing?

1253
01:12:15,276 --> 01:12:16,766
Yeah, I think that's a really good point

1254
01:12:16,766 --> 01:12:18,926
and I hadn't necessarily thought about it like that.

1255
01:12:18,976 --> 01:12:22,356
I guess I have definitely, yeah, so I think that's all very valid

1256
01:12:22,356 --> 01:12:25,766
and, you know, maybe I will shift the way that I, that I view things.

1257
01:12:25,966 --> 01:12:30,086
Um, I definitely have thought, you know, if, if Satoshi came around

1258
01:12:30,086 --> 01:12:34,341
now and he might be, you know, Who knows what he's going to be like?

1259
01:12:34,351 --> 01:12:39,831
And now I think the beauty of Bitcoin is it's sort of beyond him.

1260
01:12:39,841 --> 01:12:43,091
Like, if he came and he wanted to try and change things, everyone would be like, no.

1261
01:12:43,511 --> 01:12:45,591
Um, and he doesn't have that control.

1262
01:12:48,236 --> 01:12:49,196
Yeah, I think, like,

1263
01:12:50,946 --> 01:12:54,686
what he created sort of now is beyond himself, regardless

1264
01:12:54,746 --> 01:12:57,026
of, of maybe the intention.

1265
01:12:57,036 --> 01:12:59,236
Maybe it's the CIA that created it.

1266
01:12:59,236 --> 01:13:04,856
I mean, I've heard all sorts of, some government, it's China, like, I

1267
01:13:05,196 --> 01:13:06,216
don't know if I believe those, like,

1268
01:13:06,681 --> 01:13:07,321
Well, I don't know.

1269
01:13:08,311 --> 01:13:08,911
Aliens.

1270
01:13:09,851 --> 01:13:10,041
Who knows?

1271
01:13:11,041 --> 01:13:11,301
Yeah.

1272
01:13:12,351 --> 01:13:12,761
I think

1273
01:13:12,761 --> 01:13:15,171
that's, you know, we do talk about, I think it's something

1274
01:13:15,171 --> 01:13:16,401
we do talk to investors about.

1275
01:13:16,401 --> 01:13:21,001
We do, I think, have to be also thoughtful around that there are still risks in

1276
01:13:21,001 --> 01:13:23,321
Bitcoin and it's not this infallible.

1277
01:13:23,361 --> 01:13:26,131
So I think what you said is really important, like killing our heroes,

1278
01:13:26,191 --> 01:13:30,336
constantly questioning, constantly, constantly, being skeptical because

1279
01:13:30,336 --> 01:13:32,106
I think it's so easy to fall.

1280
01:13:32,106 --> 01:13:35,816
It's so easy to sort of like, Get stuck in one way of viewing the world.

1281
01:13:35,906 --> 01:13:36,276
So

1282
01:13:37,126 --> 01:13:38,646
we appreciate the challenge.

1283
01:13:39,606 --> 01:13:40,446
Yeah, absolutely.

1284
01:13:40,646 --> 01:13:45,826
It's, uh, and we're only human, everyone does it, like, if, uh,

1285
01:13:46,016 --> 01:13:53,216
and Bitcoin fits this, like, it acts so much as an explainer for

1286
01:13:53,216 --> 01:13:54,676
all that's wrong with the world.

1287
01:13:54,696 --> 01:13:57,146
Once you view the world through a Bitcoin lens.

1288
01:13:57,751 --> 01:13:58,711
Everything makes sense.

1289
01:13:58,801 --> 01:14:01,481
Okay, this is why we have over consumerism.

1290
01:14:01,491 --> 01:14:04,751
This is why we have more and more draconian laws and

1291
01:14:04,751 --> 01:14:06,421
totalitarian states and all that.

1292
01:14:06,611 --> 01:14:08,221
Oh, this is why there's corruption.

1293
01:14:08,241 --> 01:14:10,381
This is why people are greedy.

1294
01:14:10,531 --> 01:14:11,991
Like, all of it makes sense.

1295
01:14:12,331 --> 01:14:16,101
Uh, this is why we're bad for the planet and the environmentalism and stuff.

1296
01:14:16,311 --> 01:14:19,631
Like, all of it makes sense when you view it through these goggles.

1297
01:14:20,211 --> 01:14:24,851
So it's very easy to get your, like, uh, your view of what Bitcoin is,

1298
01:14:24,881 --> 01:14:30,291
like, uh, to, to be set in stone at some point, and then you think it's

1299
01:14:30,431 --> 01:14:34,741
that, and then all of a sudden it behaves differently than you expected.

1300
01:14:35,151 --> 01:14:37,751
I think that's what happened to, to some of the people back

1301
01:14:37,751 --> 01:14:38,961
in the fork wars and stuff.

1302
01:14:38,961 --> 01:14:42,261
They had this view of what it was, and then it shows, then it didn't

1303
01:14:42,261 --> 01:14:43,881
behave as they thought it would.

1304
01:14:44,611 --> 01:14:48,021
And, uh, That's where I think the ego dropping comes in.

1305
01:14:48,111 --> 01:14:52,061
Like, uh, you need to drop your ego to, to, to rid yourself

1306
01:14:52,061 --> 01:14:54,021
of your own narrative of this.

1307
01:14:54,541 --> 01:15:00,131
I think to a certain extent, this, uh, this whole spam on the, on the

1308
01:15:00,141 --> 01:15:07,111
time chain, uh, thing that has, uh, emerged as an issue now, uh, these,

1309
01:15:07,391 --> 01:15:10,761
this last year in Bitcoin has sort of changed my views on, on what

1310
01:15:10,761 --> 01:15:12,431
this thing is and how robust it is.

1311
01:15:12,571 --> 01:15:13,721
And, uh, that it.

1312
01:15:14,376 --> 01:15:21,376
Like, I'm not necessarily so happy with, as happy with ossification as

1313
01:15:21,376 --> 01:15:23,406
I was before I saw the spam attack.

1314
01:15:23,906 --> 01:15:28,396
Like, uh, there could be things that we still need to solve, or there are

1315
01:15:28,596 --> 01:15:30,376
things that we still need to solve.

1316
01:15:30,386 --> 01:15:32,876
So, yeah, I don't really know where I stand.

1317
01:15:32,876 --> 01:15:34,196
I'm trying to figure it out.

1318
01:15:34,656 --> 01:15:41,246
Like, if this is best treated by being ignored or by actively fighting it.

1319
01:15:42,926 --> 01:15:45,136
But I need, we need to stay vigilant.

1320
01:15:45,146 --> 01:15:50,716
That's the only thing I do know because complacency is if, if anything, it's

1321
01:15:50,716 --> 01:15:52,686
complacency that will kill Bitcoin.

1322
01:15:53,346 --> 01:15:58,236
Like that's the, to me, that's the only attack vector we

1323
01:15:58,316 --> 01:16:00,406
always did, did it to ourselves.

1324
01:16:00,506 --> 01:16:04,231
And if we, If we kill Bitcoin, we did that to ourselves too.

1325
01:16:04,241 --> 01:16:04,651
I

1326
01:16:04,701 --> 01:16:05,571
truly believe that.

1327
01:16:06,230 --> 01:16:06,660
I love that.

1328
01:16:06,660 --> 01:16:10,150
Like constantly working at staying open minded, it's like takes constant work.

1329
01:16:10,180 --> 01:16:11,240
I feel like you constantly,

1330
01:16:11,255 --> 01:16:11,875
Yeah,

1331
01:16:11,975 --> 01:16:16,385
because my favorite quote on open mindedness is from Terry Pratchett,

1332
01:16:16,385 --> 01:16:19,175
who said like, the problem with an open mind is that people would come

1333
01:16:19,175 --> 01:16:20,825
along and try to put stuff in it.

1334
01:16:21,735 --> 01:16:24,095
So, so, uh, I think there's a lot to that.

1335
01:16:24,135 --> 01:16:27,595
I think, uh, open mindedness is kind of worthless if you're not

1336
01:16:27,615 --> 01:16:33,595
intellectually honest and like willing to, to, uh, rethink like second and

1337
01:16:33,615 --> 01:16:38,390
third thoughts about, about stuff and like to constantly Juggle.

1338
01:16:39,590 --> 01:16:40,870
Do brain gymnastics.

1339
01:16:41,140 --> 01:16:41,830
They're good for you.

1340
01:16:42,505 --> 01:16:47,115
Alright, I think we might be coming to a semi natural end to this conversation,

1341
01:16:47,115 --> 01:16:52,775
so Andi, is there anything else you'd like to mention or perhaps to direct

1342
01:16:52,785 --> 01:16:57,525
our listeners towards if they'd like to find out more about you or EgoDeath

1343
01:16:57,565 --> 01:16:58,125
Capital?

1344
01:16:58,773 --> 01:16:59,003
not

1345
01:16:59,003 --> 01:16:59,703
specifically.

1346
01:16:59,743 --> 01:17:02,353
No, uh, I'm not a huge active Twitter user.

1347
01:17:02,403 --> 01:17:04,713
My business partners are much bigger on Twitter than I am.

1348
01:17:04,763 --> 01:17:06,353
Um, our website, egodeath.

1349
01:17:06,383 --> 01:17:11,523
capital has a little bit more about us, our portfolio companies, um, but, uh, you

1350
01:17:11,523 --> 01:17:15,643
know, we, we, I think we, I try and stay in the background and let our portfolio

1351
01:17:15,643 --> 01:17:18,663
companies, they're the ones that are really like doing the work out there.

1352
01:17:19,043 --> 01:17:22,223
Um, so you can go to our website and, you know, view what they're doing, which

1353
01:17:22,263 --> 01:17:24,243
is, is, is really what's interesting.

1354
01:17:24,293 --> 01:17:27,163
Um, if you want to learn more about sort of, I guess

1355
01:17:27,553 --> 01:17:28,943
what the companies are doing in the world.

1356
01:17:29,598 --> 01:17:30,218
Fantastic.

1357
01:17:30,228 --> 01:17:30,598
So,

1358
01:17:30,638 --> 01:17:32,538
uh, Andi, thank you so much for coming on.

1359
01:17:32,578 --> 01:17:35,798
Uh, I mean, we have, uh, been looking forward to this conversation

1360
01:17:35,798 --> 01:17:37,028
for quite some time now.

1361
01:17:37,028 --> 01:17:38,298
Uh, great to finally have it.

1362
01:17:38,338 --> 01:17:42,328
And I look forward a lot to continue the conversation in

1363
01:17:42,328 --> 01:17:43,558
real life when, whenever we

1364
01:17:43,558 --> 01:17:44,459
meet the next time.

1365
01:17:44,913 --> 01:17:47,833
Likewise, it's been a lot of fun, uh, covered some interesting topics.

1366
01:17:47,963 --> 01:17:50,373
So thank you very much.

1367
01:17:51,232 --> 01:17:55,062
Yup, thank you, thanks again Andi, so this has been the Freedom Footprint

1368
01:17:55,062 --> 01:17:56,652
Show, thank you for listening.