there were about to be a wave of companies that needed building because
there were these big technological shifts happening on Bitcoin.
That would allow a huge wave of innovation, so then we were like, wow,
this is a huge opportunity and a huge need that founders would need, not just
capital, but also really professional support, we invest not just capital,
we're really supporting the founders in a really deep way when we do
invest as well.
okay, , why am I here?
Like, what am I supposed to be doing in the world?
to understand that I need to understand, like, Why are humans here?
Like, if I'm part of humanity, like, why are humans?
why is life?
Why does life exist?
Like, and then you're like, okay, well, why does the world exist?
Then you're like, why does the universe exist?
. I think why did the universe exist is a very complicated question that I have
no insight into, but Why life exists to me is sort of like this way that
consciousness gets to experience itself.
So then we think about Satoshi, creating Bitcoin and then anonymously and
leaving as sort of his ultimate act of ego death, there was no ego involved.
He wanted nothing from it.
Like he's never.
You know, extracted a, Satoshi from his savings.
And I think that's, you know, there's something that's so special about
Bitcoin that can't be replicated.
Andi, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show.
Thanks for joining us.
Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah.
Hi, AAndi good to see you.
you're in, uh, back in Australia now, I guess, right?
No, I live in Austin, in
In Austin.
Okay.
so we'll, We'll, uh, uh, since I got that wrong, we should do the TLDR on Andi Pitt.
Will you tell our listeners and us who you are and, uh, what you do,
uh, please?
Well, the reason
I was, so I am from Australia.
I grew up in Australia.
Um, and we met at the Bitcoin conference in Sydney last year.
So that's, you know, makes sense why you, you, you were
thinking I live in Australia.
Um, I was there for a while.
So it was really great timing to be able to join that conference.
I have a background in traditional finance.
It was with Goldman Sachs, for around eight years.
And, um, Um, starting in Australia in, um, in mergers and acquisitions,
leveraged finance, and then moved to New York, where I sat on, um, the
trading floor in a principal investing role, um, doing a lot of, structuring
really interesting transactions, uh, really all around the world across a
variety of different, industries, Left.
I was always passionate about emerging markets, um, really saw
that there was something very broken with how the global system works.
and so that was really, you know, always what I wanted to do.
And I just sort of ended up staying at Goldman a lot
longer, maybe than I expected.
and so I left, I ended up traveling, taking quite a long sabbatical,
kind of working on a startup in the middle, failing at my startup.
Now it's sort of.
Well, merging it into another company, which now I'm
advising on, which is awesome.
and then, um, yeah, started, co founded the fund Ego Death Capital, along
with Jeff Booth and Nikolai Lechuga as the founding general partners
a little over two years ago now.
Um, really with this excitement around what was going on in Bitcoin
and Bitcoin being a solution to, you know, so many huge problems that I
had always been passionate about.
And bring sort of the different expertise, uh, that we could then really support
those companies that we, that would be building out the infrastructure to
create, you know, the system that we really wanted, to see in the world.
Um, so we were very lucky to be joined by, um, our advisors, Lynn Alden, Preston Pish
and Pablo Fernandez on the first fund.
They really trusted us.
Um, we're very grateful and have absolutely loved working with them.
Um, we're currently raising our second fund.
and, uh, Lynn and Preston are both joining us as general
partners in that second fund.
And then we also have, um, Lisa Naygood, aka Nifty Nay.
She is joining as an advisor, technical advisor to the second fund.
She's awesome.
All of our team is awesome.
so yeah, really love, love, love getting to work on what we get to
work with, get to support amazing companies and just support these
founders that are really like the ones
bringing that vision to life.
Yeah.
So, so what kind of companies are EcoDeath looking to, to invest in?
We invest in
companies that are building Bitcoin only, so investing in the Bitcoin ecosystem.
and companies, it's the software application layer.
So we're not investing in, in any mining, um, companies.
We would consider mining services, you know, technology for mining.
but we really specialize the fund in, in these software applications.
Um, and it's really then any company that's.
Contributing in some way to the Bitcoin ecosystem with technology, helping
people, providing, you know, ways that people can buy or use Bitcoin.
So, for instance, um, we have a company called Relay out of Europe,
and they're helping people in Europe to buy Bitcoin, uh, or it's like companies
that maybe are using Bitcoin in a really innovative way, as well, or it's a,
it's a way that's like, so it's sort of contributing to Bitcoin or using Bitcoin
in some way.
And what, uh, where did you get the idea from?
Like where, how, how did, what, what are the origins of ego death?
How, how did the, the, the things form start forming in your brain?
Like
where did it come from?
so Nico and
I, um, had been friends for quite a while and we, um, I was on sabbatical.
I was thinking about what to do next and basically Nico and I
started talking about, you know, Working on something together.
and then he was, he's known Jeff for many years, Jeff Booth.
So he's, he was quite good friends with Jeff and he and Jeff had
been talking about what's going on in the Bitcoin ecosystem.
you know, Jeff had been, you know, much deeper in the Bitcoin ecosystem than us.
And both of us, Nico and I, had this deep passion for, uh, emerging markets.
We had known Bitcoin for many years.
and so then sort of the three of us started talking about what was
going on in the Bitcoin ecosystem.
how these companies, you know, Jeff had this insight of what, of this building
that was really about to happen.
that, that there were about to be a wave of companies that needed
building because there were these big technological shifts happening on Bitcoin.
That would allow a huge wave of innovation, um, and building to happen.
And so then what we did, um, from there, uh, so then we were like,
wow, this is a huge opportunity and a huge need that founders would need,
not just capital, but also really professional support, for those.
And so we constructed a team, basically, that would be able to
raise the funding we needed and then really support those founders as well.
So we invest not just capital, we're really supporting the founders
in a really deep way when we do
invest as well.
what, what is the main difference of working with this as compared
to working for Goldman and
Sachs?
Bye.
I
mean, the biggest difference from my day to day is, and high level is
really, I'm working with early stage founders who have this like, Um, so
we're investing in really people.
It's investing in a small group of co founders, typically.
And it's so, okay, yes, it's a company, but really, it's working closely with
these, you know, really ambitious, excited, you Um, creative founders and
really supporting them from that very early stage to growing, um, versus what
I was doing at Goldman was really working with very big established companies.
so, you know, anything from like SoftBank to, um, really big companies
in, in, in, in emerging markets.
Um, and there it's, it's just a really different thing.
You're helping them improve their financing, but you're not.
It wasn't really like helping to build something.
I wasn't really like helping.
I didn't really feel like I was necessarily contributing that much.
It was like, okay, yes, I was helping these companies to improve in how they
were operating, but I wasn't really like, I think it's much more exciting
to be supporting young founders.
And you can really see this, you're supporting them to grow from
some, like basically from nothing to something really incredible.
And then it's much more meaningful for me.
Like.
I just couldn't work anymore doing something that I didn't
feel was like, really contributing in a positive way to the world.
That was just like, it was just kind of soul destroying to be quite honest.
so now it's like, You know, I really feel like what we're doing is, is
supporting, um, something that's so important for the world to exist,
like, and it's like, how do we each contribute in our own way to that?
And so I feel like this is how I can contribute
to kind of Bitcoin effectively.
Yeah.
And, uh,
like, uh, Jeff talks about, uh, like seeing things from the lens of the,
the world that is to come, or like, you can choose how much you already
live in on a Bitcoin standard or in a hyperbitcoinized world, right?
It's sort of personal.
So from EcoDev's perspective, how much, like, do you denominate in
sats, for instance, when you look at, uh, a contract or anything
really, like how, how do you view the
world from a company perspective?
I think there's
like a difference between looking forward and being practical
around the reality of today.
And if we were to say, oh, we, we live in a Bitcoinized world,
that's sort of delusional.
Um, you know, I think what Jeff is talking about much more is like
looking forward, um, and doing what we can to get to that point.
But the reality is that, you know, most of the founders we invest in,
their expenses of their company are mostly denominated in fiat.
So a founder that's living in Lisbon, Portugal.
He's paying his rent in fiat, you know, is paying his children's
school fees in, in, in euros.
you know, and so the reality is that most founders, at least sort of their
life expenses, and so their salaries for the engineers and everyone has
to be at least a majority in fiat.
But then what was, what then makes sense is, you know, we all typically
like might save a portion of our salaries and retain a portion.
So there's like a transition over time where now people
don't want to save in fiat.
So their day to day expenses, part of their income maybe has to be
in fiat, but then part of it now can go into Bitcoin because that's
actually what people want to save in.
Um, so I think that's like the start of the transition.
And then over time, as you see hyperbitcoinization, then maybe
those, you know, the base case of expenses gets denominated
in fiat, sorry, in, in Bitcoin.
But for now, what we're doing is effectively investing, um, fiat
currency into, into, into companies.
And there are a few reasons for that.
One is just from a practical perspective, these early stage
companies, their expenses are in fiat.
But over time, as they're generating Bitcoin revenues, whether it's
Bitcoin linked or just directly in Bitcoin, they put more and more
of their treasury into Bitcoin.
So, if you are a founder and you have your expenses of denominated in
fiat and you have a Bitcoin treasury, that opens you up to so much risk.
But over time, as you have revenues, it balances out.
And so it's sort of this like gradual curve that companies can shift to a
Bitcoin standard, um, over time as they're generating Bitcoin linked revenue.
So as we're seeing all of these companies start to do that, it's sort
of like all I guess it's like a flywheel almost that more and more Bitcoin.
The companies are earning Bitcoin, and then it creates more
Bitcoin, um, usage over time.
So that's sort of how we see it.
And, uh, but we invest in companies that we think basically have the
ability to outperform Bitcoin.
So they're really, we're thinking about the sort of hurdle rate as being Bitcoin,
which is an insanely high hurdle rate.
Um, but you know, that's how our founders have to think that if they're not able
to beat the Bitcoin hurdle rate with the growth in their company, then, you know,
they should really just be holding it, holding treasury or investing in Bitcoin.
So that that's what we're really looking
for in our companies as well.
Yeah, and that's,
that's really, really hard.
I mean.
what would that be?
Well, it would be something in Bitcoin and something earning Bitcoin, probably.
Uh, but yeah, that hurdle is, it's gonna change everything and,
uh, some people are fearful that that will slow down the economy.
I don't think so, personally.
I think it's just, it's just more honest and we'll see if you, there are no
zombie companies on a Bitcoin standard.
Uh, it's just, it's just, More truthful, uh, but that also means that to outperform
Bitcoin, you have to provide something of
real value.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And I mean, what we've
seen is, you know, a lot of venture capital, uh, has gotten a
little over its skis, I would say.
Um, there's been so much funding put into companies that just don't make sense.
So much wasted funding.
Um, and then it's a whole extra story in the crypto VC world, which is not even VC.
I wouldn't even call it venture capital, but that's a whole different story.
Um, so I think founders in the Bitcoin ecosystem, and we encourage this as being
very, very diligent, very thoughtful.
We're not investing in companies that maybe have the potential to
have revenue in five years time.
It's like, no, what's like the business model?
How are you going to get there?
and that's really what we want to see from a pretty early stage.
and so, you know, founders are diligent.
We're having this world where some of our companies are cash flow positive,
like, profitable at the seed stage.
And with the sort of super high growth metrics that you would expect,
as well from a seed stage company.
And that's, that's, I think, quite unique.
Not all of our companies.
We have a sort of a, from a portfolio construction perspective, some
that really have revenue today and some that are more like moonshots.
But, you know, from a venture perspective, we are looking for the
companies that contribute, can have the potential to contribute in a really
material way to the Bitcoin ecosystem.
And for our investors, that means, you know, if they have the
potential to return like 100x.
and so Bitcoin, you know, I think it's unlikely that Bitcoin
does 100x in the next 10 years.
You never know.
But, um, as compared to Fiat, like, let's see what happens in the Fiat world.
As compared to some currencies, it certainly will do 100x.
Um, but compared to the US dollar.
Um, but that's what we're looking for in
companies.
I've talked to Jeff about this a lot, like, uh, what, what this implies and what
it could possibly mean for the future.
So, The first, the first instinctive thing is to think that like, okay, so
running a profitable Bitcoin company, like denominated in Bitcoin is really,
really hard, but then you get into the other thing, uh, which is so fascinating
that free market competition there, there's a, there's like a new level.
Of competition, competition that doesn't even have to be competition
on Bitcoin, because Bitcoiners are incentivized to help one another.
And so are Bitcoin companies.
we all benefit from each other.
Bitcoin, proper Bitcoin company.
Uh, so, so one thing happening in Bitcoin over here helps everyone else in Bitcoin.
Every, every other part of the world.
So, so we're, uh, and the companies in particular are, are incentivized
to, to like help one another.
And I can feel like, uh, we've seen this through the years, uh,
being in the space that more and more people are leaning into that.
And, and instead of seeing it one another as competitors, just.
Starting to help one another, but li like, uh, the Madeira Conference for
instance, and B2C, Prague and, and, and Honey Badger and Riga, all of those three
conferences seem like they, they don't see each other as competition at all.
They see each other as complimentary to one another.
And like, I, I look forward that kind of future so much because I think that's,
that's one of the most beautiful aspects
of this.
What, what are your thoughts?
Yeah, I totally agree.
And
I think it's, it's like, there are huge problems with having an underlying
monetary system that is corrupted, that's inflationary, that's unfair.
and we don't really see that in a very tangible, obvious way in our society on
like normal day to day, year to year.
But what we do see is, okay, well, let's look what happens
when you have hyperinflation.
and people are all of a sudden really struggling, having to compete.
This creates enormous scarcity.
It just destroys society so quickly.
And so if you think about, like, that being a super magnified version of what
we have in our underlying system, and so we have that going on in a smaller
way every year, but over 10, 20, 50 years, that just creates this culture of
competition, effectively, because everyone has this scarcity, because everyone's
just like, um, You know, the hamstermill trying to, like, keep up with, with,
with the world, um, with inflation, with, with asset price inflation.
and so I think that, you know, I mean, that's definitely the thesis
that if you don't have a corruption and underlying monetary system, that
it could completely change the way people interact with each other.
If, if people no longer have a scarcity mindset, if they have a currency, they
can actually store their wealth in and they're not constantly having to
preserve that and figure out how to preserve it and invest and make more.
and so I feel like that, that definitely comes across into Bitcoin now from a
practical perspective, if you are building a company in the Bitcoin space, there
might be competition in your space, and that is going to be competitive.
But I think what's really different here is the share.
It's, it's not like there's a fixed pie.
And everyone's trying to like get a piece of it and it's a zero sum game.
Like it's not a zero sum game in Bitcoin.
the pie is growing and if everyone is contributing, so if you have like, you
know, 5 different, let's talk about like, you know, relay and sorry, Swan and
River are 2 big US companies, which help people buy Bitcoin in the US, like, if
each of them are bringing Bitcoin to new people, then that whole pie is growing.
And so they're helping each other and they're not.
And there is a degree of competition, but there's a degree to which each
of them is sort of like growing their worlds and their buyers.
And so actually, I think that's being part of like a rising tide of something means
that there is inherently less requirement to be competitive and people can then
really contribute and help each other.
And so, yeah, I agree with you.
I think we're definitely
seeing that in the Bitcoin space.
Yeah.
This whole
notion of, uh, the economy being a zero sum game is, is like one
of the bigger lies ever told.
Like, it's, uh, uh, I, I think that's, that's why people have a, uh, the,
the sea, like the evil Uncle Scrooge type capitalist as the bad guy.
It's because of this flaw.
conception of the, the, that being rich always has to be at the expense of
someone else, which is simply not true.
It's, it's only true if you acquired your wealth through, uh, illicit
means, uh, including inflation.
So.
Uh, when you live in a system that is inherently, uh, untruthful
and wrong, ethically wrong and immoral, then that's what happens.
Then people will see the capitalist as the bad guy, and they're
partly, partially right, since, uh, since that's what's going on.
Like, the winners are the ones who know how to play this, very skewed
kind of game.
I mean, I think it's, it's true.
I think one thing I, I do, I have observed is like, everyone's trying to do what
they think is right at the end of the day.
Like, I think there are very few people in the world.
I mean, for sure.
Some that are really out there to be terrible people, like, most people by
far the majority genuinely think that what they're doing is the right thing
or that maybe they don't think about it.
And Yeah, they're trying to build, build, build wealth for their family.
They're trying to support their family.
And the best way that they know how to do that is by working in a big corporation
or by running a big corporation.
And maybe that corporation happens to be close to the money printer or there's
lobbyists, like, and then you get in this system where people, you know, work
for a company and, like, the way that they're rewarded, the whole, the whole
system is incentivized that these people The best way that they can be successful,
which is what society expects, is for them to work really hard in that company
and do the best thing to maximize the shareholder returns of that company.
But the whole system is, like, pushing them into that because, you know,
you have pension funds, well, it's like, really, you have, like, big
investors, let's call it BlackRock, that, like, are expecting these
companies to have shareholder returns.
And so then the people inside, the board of directors, the CEO, okay,
they, all they need to do is constantly grow profits and that's like their
one thing that they have to do.
And so, okay, we can demonize them, like the CEO of a major company.
For taking a big salary and, you know, pushing growth at all costs.
Okay.
But why is he doing that?
Let's okay.
Well, let's demonize BlackRock because they own all of the equity and they're
the ones that are like putting the shells.
Okay.
Well, okay.
But who's pressure on BlackRock like BlackRock.
Okay.
They're high net worth or they actually have pension funds that like moms and
dads invest in that they need the returns because the whole system is inflationary.
And so I think there is, it's easy to demonize people, but I just see everyone
as a sort of like a product of that system
in one way or another.
I
Yeah,
uh, and this is, this is something I debate with other Bitcoiners a lot
because, like, I, I totally agree.
I don't think, I think it's a, it's an effect of how the system
is constructed from the beginning, and I don't even think, I don't
even buy that the founders of the Federal Reserve were thinking things.
Uh, that they were doing something evil either, or like, they, they probably
thought they were doing the right thing.
Uh, it's just, that was impossible to see the, that far into the future.
What the, the, what the end result or what the long term effects of, of this
kind of system would be, just as I think like, uh, a democracy is sort of like
that, uh, it, uh, It looks very good on paper, but it, uh, is it inevitable?
This is something I struggle with.
Is it inevitable that every democracy turns into a totalitarian state after
X amount of hundreds of years, like, because, or tens of years or whatever?
I think the pace may differ, but, uh, there's something inherently flawed
about, um, um, About all of our systems, when we have this kind of
corrupt money, uh, in the base layer, it's, it's probably all inevitable,
all the, all the bad shit that comes
with it,
mean, it might
be based, but there's other inherent problems, like even, so I guess I
think you have, you have to like, separate democracy from elections.
So just because a country has elections doesn't mean it's democracy.
Like, the US is not a democracy.
Like, if you actually look into it, like most countries.
And it's like, I think the bigger question, well, at least how I think,
I totally agree with you and how I sort of frame it is like, is it
actually possible to have a democracy?
Because if you did have a perfect democracy, then
theoretically that could continue.
But the problem is, like, I don't know that that's possible.
And so even if you look at like voting theory, so like, if you look at kind
of a microeconomics, like, like a mathematical model of voting theory.
There is no perfect voting system.
So there is no perfect voting system that will accurately reflect the
views of the population every time.
So different countries have different structures to try and overcome this.
In the US, you have state by state, you have the president, which is very flawed.
In say, um, certain countries like Egypt, you'll have runoff elections.
So you'll have like 50 candidates and then the top, like, two get selected.
For a runoff.
But even then, mathematically, like, it doesn't guarantee, because people
split the vote, like, you could have three candidates out of the five in
the first election that represent the same thing, they split the vote, and
therefore the other two go through.
So, just mathematically, there's actually no perfect way to have
Elections reflect the population.
other countries like Germany will do, um, proportional representation of democracy.
Once you get above a certain threshold, you have representation in the
parliament, and then you get into all the factors of like, of that.
But I think, you know, and then in the US, we have parliamentary voting.
In Australia, we have something similar, but In the US, each individual, senator
or congressman or congresswoman would vote individually on each piece of legislation.
In Australia, or the UK, and I, I'm not sure how it is in European
countries, you vote as a party, like, it's very, very uncommon.
It's almost unheard of for anyone to vote against the party.
So if we think about how that works in practice, in the US, each individual,
uh, And then the other person is deciding whether or not they're going
to vote for a piece of legislation, which it's like, how do you design
a system for maximum corruption?
Right?
Because then they're like looking at their own interests for every single
one, bargaining on every single piece of legislation that comes through.
And so then you just get these like crazy pieces of legislation passed,
like the Inflation Reduction Act that people just add on and add on and add
on, and it just becomes a total mess.
Whereas in Australia, like, There are benefits and cons and pros of, like, pros
and cons of both systems, but at least in Australia, I think there is corruption,
but it's less, because you would have to basically corrupt an entire party,
effectively, or a majority of the party, your interests would have to align with
a majority of the party for that party to kind of want that to come into force.
because if the party doesn't agree with what the leader is
doing, they actually can just vote him out in between elections.
So it's very much like a, it's just a little more check and balance on at least
that one particular aspect of, of, of what
might corrupt a democracy.
I don't know how it is in other European countries, but I think it's
kind of similar, but, but from my, my experience is from the Swedish
system, Where it's very much like that, that it's very uncommon that
people go against the party line.
But it's not as if you have to bribe the entire party.
You could just bribe the leadership of the party, which is usually very centralized
and very bribe able, as it seems anyway.
So, so I think, uh, yeah, and there's a lot of like virtue signaling and stuff
going on from this leadership position.
So, so, uh, I think we'll get, uh, I view corruption in different countries
as like they're, they're, it exists everywhere, but it's just the different
layers of society where you, you might have to, you know, bribe the, the, the
police officer on the street in Mexico, but, uh, and if you go to Scandinavia,
you have to bribe someone higher up the hierarchy and it's more expensive to bribe
them, but the bribes are still there.
So, so what system is more, You know, fair and, and, uh, truthful,
well, up for debate, I guess, but, uh, Yeah, and then you have the
other inherent flaws of democracy.
It's not just only that it doesn't make, like, voting theory and mathematics that
it doesn't make sense, but also the, the, uh, the morality of, like, it's four
people, if five people vote, four of them could vote for beating up the fifth guy.
And that's like, it's still wrong.
So you come into libertarian theory and property rights and stuff and, uh,
It's very hard to square democracy with property rights at the end of the day.
So, so, but I don't, I'm not claiming I have any answers here what to
do about it, except just increase your freedom footprint and get
some more money, or I mean Bitcoin.
Get some more money is probably a good idea too.
Yeah, but get your hands on some Bitcoin and try to Live your life your own
way, use the tools you have, like, do the jurisdictional slalom if you can,
I mean, one thing I do find useful is like
talking to people about the ideas we talk about in Bitcoin, but not in a
preachy, It's like when invited or, you know, maybe discussing lightly
something that someone might find it.
I don't know with my family.
Like, if I just go and talk about Bitcoin, I've lost them.
But, um, you know, there are certain aspects of it that
actually really resonate.
And so sort of helping because people like inherently, I think
it's a human nature thing.
Like, One way or another, quite close minded.
they might, it's like a natural thing over time and evolutionary perspective that You
know, people end up seeing the world in a fixed way that is effectively in line with
their peer group, and so helping, like, I think, like, just creating, like, little
cracks in, in maybe the way that they see the world and opening minds a little
bit, I think that's, like, what I've At least where I'm at, who knows, like, but
right now, that's kind of where I'm at of like, just like us getting people to
maybe like question their assumptions a little bit just to like loosen up
maybe some of those really fixed,
fixed views that are held.
Absolutely, and
yeah, that's how you do it.
Because you, like, going full on, becoming a full on, like, big coiner, you will
alienate people, and You, you will spend less time with your old friends, uh,
that's just comes with the thing, uh, because you, you, you have less in common
if, if you view the world differently and, uh, yeah, I, I've, I've seen it happen
firsthand and, uh, hopefully poking holes in their narratives and, and, uh, cracks,
as you say, in their, uh, a little crack here and there and, the mirror through
which their worlds are reflected through.
A strange sentence, but, uh,
that's probably how you, how you get there.
I think that's a really great way to phrase it actually.
Yeah, maybe, uh, maybe
I'll jump in now on a, on a to slightly take the topic a
little bit different direction.
Uh, you mentioned that, that you, got into Bitcoin and sort of more in your
life because it aligned with some things that, that, uh, that you found important.
Uh, so, but can you explain how you found Bitcoin and how you
came to the realization that it
did those things?
Yeah, so
I first came across Bitcoin probably in 2017.
I was sitting on the trading floor at Goldman in New York and
everyone was talking about Bitcoin.
It was the 2017 bull run.
and I was like, what is this thing?
I remember there was like, I think there was a guy on the floor that
like made so much and he just like quit and bought a house in the
Hamptons and just like retired.
And everyone was like, Wow.
Okay.
That's kind of cool.
Like, but also like jealous.
Like, I wish I'd done that.
not I wish, but you know, that's what people were saying.
So that's when I, that was like a very strong memory I have.
Um, and then I left Goldman in 2018.
I ended up actually spending a lot of time in Europe, um, and specifically Berlin
with a lot more of the crypto community.
So a lot of the, you know, people that were much more involved in Ethereum,
in altcoins, And there I was talking about so many interesting use cases,
but I was just like, highly skeptical.
And I was like, I don't really think these use cases make sense.
Like, for instance, because I've been a student of emerging markets,
democracy, governance, like, corruption, And so people were saying, okay, well
you can, we can use the blockchain for transparency in government.
And I'm like, I don't think the problem is a lack of ability to be transparent.
It's the lack of want to be transparent.
Like governments can publish what they spend.
You don't need technology for that.
Do governments want to do that?
No.
and so there was just like, I was just, I saw so much noise and I
didn't really get to the Bitcoin narrative at that point in time.
Um, I didn't really understand that people I was with were not Bitcoiners,
they were like crypto people.
And then I'd like left Goldman.
I was totally burnt out.
I was like, I do not have, I don't want to think about finance ever again.
I'm just going to go and travel and like live in the forest.
And right.
Um, anyway, long story short, um, I ended up, uh, it was really, I guess, in sort
of The last few years, really talking a lot to Jeff, and, and Nico and that
whole conversation we started to have around the fund and then really realizing,
I think that's what really got me was realizing that Bitcoin was this, you
know, potential solution to all of this.
These things that I had been so passionate about for such a long time.
and then I think it was really during the pandemic also,
that opened my eyes a lot too.
I'd always looked at governance and corruption and blah, blah, blah, like
as an emerging market phenomenon.
that's what I'd been studying.
I'm not sure if you're, you're familiar with the work of Paul Collier.
There's a great book, Wars, Guns and Votes, which is very influential in
my sort of journey around, um, it's called Democracy in Dangerous Places.
It's really looking at, Basically, what does quote unquote
democracy look like in Africa?
and it's not democracy, long story short.
and then it was really in 2020 that there was this outrageous
things happening in the world.
And I was like, wait, I think all of that narrative is also.
I think all of that applies to the countries I live in as well, like the US
and Australia, which was like, wait, why?
It was such a, like, a light bulb moment for me.
And so I think those two factors of seeing then Bitcoin really solving a problem for
emerging markets, but also over a longer term, you know, these deep structural
issues we have in, In the West as well.
And I think the third factor is the environmental point.
So I'm, you know, deeply passionate about the environment.
Like, it horrifies me that we cut down all growth forests.
I love hiking, camping, you know, being in nature so much and just seeing this
destruction globally of what's going on.
And it's driven by this ever consuming, ever, ever increasing consumption.
And it's horrifying to me just seeing the amount of consumption
and waste that we have in the world.
And it's just like, it's so out of harmony with how the world should
operate, and with how, like, a society and a people in harmony with nature
are ultimately a happy and, you know, thriving, functioning society.
And we're not.
And why is that?
And so for me, then, you know, I guess that was a really another, another
thing that I really resonated with around the big, you know, what people
talk about in Bitcoin of, of this inflationary monetary system driving
ever, ever increasing consumption.
That is just.
Not sustainable.
And that's ultimately what's destroying our planet.
and, you know, things being way cheaper than they should be because we're
on borrowed money and borrowed time.
and so, yeah, that that's I, I think it's interesting because so
many environmentalists are against Bitcoin and, you know, some interest
groups have done a great job.
of, creating a narrative that Bitcoin is bad for the environment.
And I think that's actually really sad.
And I would, I really want to see that change because to me, it's like
actually this root, root cause of the problem in our monetary system today.
That was a long answer.
No, that's, uh,
I mean, I love all the other, um, the, all the other, uh, um, arguments
for why Bitcoin is good for the environment that you can like use it as
a suspension mechanism for, for energy that would otherwise have been wasted.
And you can put, uh, power plants in remote locations, as long as you have
a mining rig, all of this great stuff.
But the, the, the real core thing that I seldomly hear argued for is like, yeah,
but the big, the, the really big thing here is that it's anti consumerist.
Like you will sell all your chairs and, and only, like, at some point you
come to this, that which you can do without your own insights where, where,
where you're not a materialist anymore.
You don't crave a ton of shit.
You'll, you'll be, nothing and be happy.
That's the That's where the vectors are pointing!
Yeah.
I think we all just want to like, get back to a life
where we live like in a little cottage in nature and We have family and
community around us and that's like, and we have a purpose and we work and
that's ultimately what makes us happy.
But it's kind of crazy that that's a privilege now reserved for like, The
few rich people that can afford it.
Yeah.
It's, uh,
yeah, clown world.
Everything's upside down.
So, your, uh, bio here on Ego Death Capital says Poet
and Consciousness Explorer.
I guess this is, uh, adjacent topics to this living in harmony
with nature and, uh, everything.
Uh, can
you give us a little more about that, please?
Sure.
People don't normally pick up on this.
I love it.
Um,
do I start?
I think, yeah, I, I guess I, I went on what could be called a spiritual journey
over the time after I left Goldman.
I think that's a little cliched term, so I don't love to use it,
but it is relatively accurate.
I also actually, I, I grew up sort of in my younger years in a, in a
somewhat, in a, in a, I guess, a spiritual community in Sydney as well.
So there was this kind of somehow imprinted on me in some way
or another, um, we left that.
So I wasn't involved in that for most of my life, but it is sort of the way I was
raised for the early years of my life.
I think just.
most of us on a day to day basis, we're working, we have a family, and we don't
necessarily have the time to like deeply contemplate the nature of existence, but
I was really lucky and privileged to be able to explore that and to take time
off work at a relatively young age and be able to just, spend time You know,
deeply contemplating that question and learning from, you know, some of the, the,
the, the deepest spiritual traditions, um, in the world, um, particularly,
I spent time up in Northern, Northern India, um, in Dharamshala or in the
Himalayas, um, Studying Buddhism, um, not, not a huge amount of time,
but it was very, very transformative.
The time I had there, that was some of the happiest I've been talking
about, like having no possessions.
Like, they took our phones away from us.
Everything had a tiny little cell.
Like, it was literally like a tiny bedroom with like, one little bed and that was it.
And it was like, amazing.
It's just like, so great.
I think I, so I've been, I think, and then when you start learning from all
the different deep spiritual traditions, there's this process There's this big
difference between the core mystical truths of a religion that I view as
effectively the same, um, and maybe what gets expressed and brought out into what
you would call a religion with rituals and rules and, and is sort of then
separated from, from you as having that, you know, universal source or God or
whatever you want to call it inside you.
And so I think as, as, as I've had the time to sort of
experience and understand, um.
You know, a variety of wisdom traditions, indigenous traditions from around
the world, you know, and spiritual.
it's sort of a
conclusion I've come to, if I can call it that.
I
I mean, my, my spiritual journey, I, I, I would say Bitcoin played a big part of it.
Uh, I'm, uh, I've done a bit of meditation and, uh, like.
Spent quite some time trying to, like, learn more about myself, and, uh, I'm
not a religious person by any stretch of the imagination, but what I can
say is whenever you're in a creative process and you're creating something,
whether it's a text or a song, and you really feel like In the moment creating
something, uh, especially in a live environment, when you're jamming music
with people or something, it does feel like the song or whatever is not in
your head, but in the room around you and that you're channeling something
and the writing can feel like that too.
I don't believe that's the case.
I believe that that is just tapping into your unconscious or your subconscious
mind, but it certainly feels like, uh, like it's an outside force.
So that's what I can
say about that, I guess.
What are your thoughts?
mean, from
most, most, most deep spiritual traditions would say that
effectively every human being is an incarnation of the universal source.
So, um, in Hinduism, they would, I have to remember, Brahma is basically.
The universal source, universal consciousness, and then the
Atman is effectively the, the individual incarnation of that.
And so we are all effectively connected, um, to, we are, we're all just part of
this, like, universal experience of the world and, that each of us are effectively
The universe become conscious that
if you
are in this deep thinking of like, okay, why am I here?
Like, what am I supposed to be doing in the world?
And then it's like, well, to understand that I need to understand,
like, Why are humans here?
Like, if I'm part of humanity, like, why are humans?
Okay, then if I need to understand that, well, okay, why is life?
Why does life exist?
Like, and then you're like, okay, well, why does the world exist?
Then you're like, why does the universe exist?
So it's like, you keep coming back.
I think why did the universe exist is a very complicated question that I have
no insight into, but Why life exists to me is sort of like this way that
consciousness gets to experience itself.
It's almost like if someone create, you know, if a tree falls in the
forest, does it make a sound?
Well, it doesn't if there's no one here that hear it.
And so if you know, the universe, actually, it's like this, this way
of the universe experiencing itself.
and so each of us is sort of on this journey in life through, of
consciousness through being able to sort of simultaneously be aware of the
universal consciousness at the same time being the universal consciousness.
And that's a very, very difficult journey to, to tread because of, you know, a
whole variety of, you know, A kind of evolutionary biology perspective is
like the process of becoming conscious.
So an animal, right?
They're generally pretty happy.
They just live in the world.
I have squirrels here.
They just love, they play, but are they deeply aware of themself?
Like, no.
And so that process of like, that jump in consciousness to becoming conscious
is inherently, painful and complicated.
And that's what creates a lot of like, Human, the human suffering as the, as the
Buddhists would say, suffering is inherent in life in the nature of our existence.
but I think that's the journey more and is to be able to just
experience it deeply and experience.
Everything that comes and not get attached and not, not, not rejecting
things and just being in the flow.
And then I think when you can do that, you have these moments, like
what you said of creativity, where you're just purely in that flow.
You're purely in that pure expression of consciousness.
There's nothing, there's no thoughts, there's no preconceptions,
there's no fear, there's no judgment getting in the way.
You're able to just like simply be and simply express.
And I think a lot of musicians, creators, entrepreneurs, like have that experience.
And for me, my journey is like, how do I actually be in that all day, every day?
And you don't, you get knocked out, like, but it's like, how
can I live the life that is like naturally springing up within me?
And there's a great quote from, from, from Hermann Hesse, who's a German author.
He wrote Siddhartha, but this quote is from Demian and I have to remember it,
but it's all I was, I think it's something like all I was doing was trying to live
the life that was welling up within me.
Why was that so difficult?
And that resonates to me so much.
It's like, why is it so difficult?
It's like, um, anyway, it's kind of like the
journey I'm on right now, at least.
Fascinating.
I mean, I've had such great conversations with Jeff about stuff
like this before, so it's fascinating to hear your perspective on it.
Absolutely.
And yeah, as you say, we are the universe experiencing itself to a certain extent.
We can't I mean, the molecules in our body, the atoms, some of them are born,
well, most of them, all of them, are born, when stars explode, like, uh, and
the really heavier elements need a really big star to explode, and then those
atoms get scattered around the universe, and, uh, They make up what we are, so
we are literally the stuff of stars, and I, I, I find this very fascinating, the
whole, like, to which extent the mind creates reality, and to which extent
there is an objective reality, and if the whole objective subjective objective.
Dichotomy is false, if that's also something where our brains created to make
order out of chaos, because we have no way of knowing, and there are so many other
theories, like, um, for instance, there's, uh, Three theories I love about this.
One is the meme theory of everything, which is a way of explaining the
Fermi Paradox, which I'm sure you know of, uh, why we don't hear
about the, from other life forms.
And that is simply because they're too far away, so our minds can't sync with them.
So what we experience, what we call reality, is simply where
our consciousnesses collide, uh, all beings on Earth.
Uh, and what also explain why it's harder to understand a lobster than it
is to understand another human being.
And, uh, even harder to understand an insect.
And I'm not sure that what you said, that other species don't
have this consciousness thing.
I mean, whales and stuff have been observed to, at least what we engage
in, at least what we think is deep thinking and, you know, committing
suicide and stuff, which is.
This sort of requires a self reflection, I guess, even though
that's not a happy thought.
Um, the other idea is that consciousness is just one of the, uh, constants in the
universe, and that we're just tapping into something that is already there, uh,
and it's like a base layer, like one of the dimensions, um, And the third theory
is, uh, the, um, just from, uh, this is much more hands on thing about, uh, space
time, space and time being connected in the way that Einstein predicted.
So we know that time flows different speeds in different places in
the universe, which means we, we do experience it subjectively.
I mean, here locally on earth, the differences are so small, so we don't
really see it, but it could be that.
For at least a certain time period, the universe is already deterministic,
so it's deterministic on a short scale, but non deterministic on a
longer scale, if that makes any sense, because you could sort of, if you cut
through the nature of space time, you add space to the three dimensions,
so it becomes, a cross section, So a cross section of a four dimensional
thing, what would that look like?
And could that be like the true representation of time?
I'm rambling here, but yeah, I, I love exploring these topics and
I can't stop thinking about them.
It's wonderful.
Mean, I think
a couple, like on the animal thing, I totally agree with you.
I think there are certain animals that potentially For sure animals have
feeling, they have emotion, they have personality, like, my, my question about
animals, even like, like dolphins for instance, are known to like, take drugs,
like, they will get a puffer fish, and they will pass the puffer fish around,
like male tamed dolphins, because it could have been an, like, a poison.
Puts them in an altered state of consciousness.
And there's videos, you can, the dolphins are just like floating like this.
It's hilarious.
Um, and you, you know, you see family bonding, you see love,
you see mourning, you see pain.
Extraordinary level of consciousness, particularly in, you know, whales,
elephants, dolphins, like these larger, more, more advanced species.
Whether they question the nature of their reality, I'm not sure.
Like, do they question who am I and what am I doing in this world?
Like if, if an, if a whale is committed committing suicide,
is that an instinctual thing?
Is that a, like, I think Ka sort of do that as well?
I think they, I think the other side is, I think it's possible that
for our leap to consciousness to occur, it came with a disconnection.
So animals also have superpowers.
If we, as humans, think about how animals work, like, how do whales navigate?
How do turtles come back to the same beach every year?
How do, like, birds migrate across the world and navigate?
Like, we don't actually know how that works.
So, as compared to humans, like, certain animals have these, like,
incredible, like, they know a tsunami is coming, they, animals will flee.
There's, so Rupert Sheldrake talks about this a lot, and there's a book
he wrote about, like, dogs that know their owners are coming home, and they
did all of these experiments, and dogs would know their owner was coming home,
even, like, the owner hadn't left the office, like, it was just an intention,
like, there is no way that the dogs would know that There was no routine, there
was no hearing, like, but they would go to the window and wait for their owner
when the owner had, like, was leaving the office and knew, like, but there's
no way the dogs could have known in the material ways that we view the world.
And so there's like this connection that certain animals have with, you
know, A knowledge or an understanding like this deeper frequency, maybe
you can call it that, of the world that like we are disconnected to.
And then if you start looking at like to your point on like consciousness and what
we're generating, like creating our own reality, and you start like looking into
the quantum physics aspect of things.
There's so like, yes, we're made of stars, but equally
we're made of literally nothing.
Like if you keep.
Going into an atom, you keep going, there's like nothing there, and all
there is is a probability function that coalesces when we view it.
And like, so there is like something and everything going
on everywhere all at once.
And we have the ability to perceive certain aspects of that, uh, but
certain aspects, you know, like, uh, like, uh, ultraviolet light,
like, we, we can't perceive.
Now we can do experiments to figure out that it exists.
And we can work with that technology, but like.
We can't perceive it.
And so we're sort of gradually increasing our perception of like
the quote unquote non material realms, if I can call it that.
And from my perspective, like, I think that's what's happening.
You know, they exist and I'm fascinated by this sort of the quote
unquote science of consciousness that's emerging with a lot of the
experimentation being done around it.
Um, yeah, anyway, and then I think the alien rabbit hole is fascinating.
So if you keep going down the alien rabbit hole, you get to consciousness.
And that's like, it's, it's like a paranormal phenomena, which is like
a potentially, you know, just a, like a product, like creation of a
mass, like a collective unconscious effectively, or a collective
consciousness that's like creating
this, this, this experience of the world.
There are so many potential solutions to that old paradox.
One thing I'm fascinated by are CAPTCHAs.
Uh, you, you, you get a capture and you, you're supposed to click a
little, uh, tick box, a tick, a little box that says, I am not a robot.
And my instinctual thought is always, how the fuck would I know if I was one?
Like, how can I ever know if I'm a robot?
This is Phil.
This is Philosophy 1 0 1.
Like I can, I cannot know, like it's.
Back to the basic notion of I think therefore some thinking is going
on somewhere, but I can't really prove anything else, so how the
fuck would I know if I'm a robot?
It's part of my French.
I never thought about that.
That's so true.
I'm never going to be able to do a capture again without thinking.
So another point is, is the idea that so a little bit touching on
the mind creating reality and like the the idea of consciousness.
Do you, do you, uh, do you Know anything about, like, sort of the idea that the
brain might make decisions, uh, about 300 milliseconds or something, but before
it actually hits into consciousness, and then this gets into the implications
of does free will actually exist?
Any thoughts
on that?
This is a fascinating conversation I've
had with someone recently.
Uh, we've been having a very deep conversation about the nature of
free will and whether it exists.
And yeah, I've heard about this research.
I think it's fascinating.
I've been diving a lot into, the work of Carl Jung in the last few months.
Um, and right now I just started reading this book, which is like, The
letters between Carl Jung and Wolfgang Pauli, who was a quantum physicist.
They actually co wrote a book together.
Anyway, so, and then someone published a collection of their letters.
I think it's fascinating.
But, um, I guess the conversation I've been having around free
will is like, I have no idea.
I mean, at the end of the day, but I think it's possible.
I think we have like certain strategic, like directions in our life.
And, you know, from a Buddhist perspective, they might call it
dharma, in Taoism, they might say you're in, in, you're in, in harmony.
You're basically in line with, with the Dao.
I think in the West, we call it purpose.
And I don't know.
I think my experience of the world is that each of us.
There is some sort of pre programmed life for us in some way.
and then whether we have the ability to influence that or not, I don't know.
Like, you know, 1 argument might be that, which I thought about
is I think sometimes maybe.
There are like certain points along the way where you, it
could be completely random.
And so maybe there is this sort of like random spectrum of outcomes and, you know,
it could be this way or this way and it's a 50 50 probability and it's just random.
So I mean, that doesn't necessarily help with free will, but then I think
there is also this aspect of being able to do the work, you know, really
getting back in touch with, ourselves and getting back in line with the
Tao, coming back to consciousness.
And then being able to, from that really centered, central point, actually being
able to influence things and influence our, our, our role in the world, or at
least be completely in line with it.
And maybe we can't influence our life, but we can influence
our experience of that life.
So we may not be able to control our external circumstances, but we can
control our emotional response to them.
And that comes with a whole host of things of like, challenges with trauma
and subconscious and all of these things.
So I don't want to bypass and say, Oh, you can just choose to be happy.
Like, I'm not saying that it's far more complicated than that, but I think we
have the ability to maybe work internally to change our emotional response to
things and, um, a book that comes to mind, which, which people might find
interesting, um, is a book by Viktor Frankl called Man's Search for Meaning.
Um, yeah.
Which is about his time in Auschwitz, which I know is a very challenging
topic for many people, including myself.
And I really found that book very, I read it, I remember March 2020,
standing in the airport, like, Could not put that book down, um, despite
the, the nature of the content.
Um, and his whole message is, okay, we might not be able to change to
control our reality externally, but we can control, we can choose
how we respond to it emotionally.
So that's just some of the thoughts I've
been having around free will lately, but.
The western philosophy that comes to mind is stoicism and Marcus Aurelius
and I think he called it being in line with nature and or being in line with
your nature or something like that is very akin to these Buddhist thoughts.
Uh, we
had some other thoughts.
thinking in that era came out of, because there was deep connections to India.
And there were also deep connections to Egypt.
So it's sort of the Egyptian mystical traditions and the Indian
mystical traditions came, were coming up to, um, which predate,
like, the sort of Roman philosophy.
it's sort of, there's this, like, one thread that, like, seems
to come through.
Yeah, that's,
that's the pretty part.
I mean, uh, Hindu, Hinduism, uh, I think Hinduism gets a pass too often,
though, for being this, uh, mystical, nice religion with only nice people
who want no possessions and stuff.
But the, the, the caste society, like work your ass off and maybe
you'll get a better life next time.
That's like the most assholey policy ever.
Like, uh, it's worse than inflation even.
Uh, you're, we're, we're the elites and you're not, and that's the way it is.
Hope for a better chance in the next life.
I, that's, that's
Yeah, that's pure evil.
I don't know if it's evil.
I think
it's, I don't know.
That's another good question.
The nature of evil.
A great philosophical question.
Um, I think it's, It's like the religious expression of what
was once a core spiritual truth.
And the same with like all of the religious institutions and
then the humans that ultimately practice those cultural practices.
So if you read the Bhagavad Gita, it can be very triggering because
it talks about caste mixing.
It talks about, okay, if everything goes, If people are not in line, then
there's caste mixing as like, that's the worst thing that can happen.
And so that's like a product of its time.
And, um, you know, what the Buddha did was really in part
a reaction to the caste system.
And so Buddhism was in a way, it's like the successor to Hinduism.
And it's much more like ascetic, much more, probably more in line with stoicism.
I have to say I'm not, you know, much more about stoicism and sort
of Roman philosophy than I do.
It's an area I'm looking to learn more about, um, but certainly in Buddhism,
you don't have the caste system.
You don't.
It's very different.
Whereas Hinduism, Okay, people really disagree with me on this, but, like, from
my perspective, Hinduism got too caught up in the ritual and the trappings of
spirituality as opposed to the heart of spirituality, and the Bhagavad Gita talks
about this, that ritual is not, like, if you're relying on ritual, you're out of
touch, like, ritual is sort of, like, not the core of, like, Spiritual connection
and Buddhism sort of tried to come back and Buddhism has gotten lost in many ways.
But, um, yeah, I totally agree with you that the modern expression,
like, the way that Hinduism got expressed in society was like, Not
positive in many ways.
No, well,
isn't it what always happens, that a very individual spiritual experience,
maybe there's something about that in the base layers of these religions, but as
soon as they become organized, they're this collectivist bullshit institution
instead, somewhere down the line, and it just gets ugly after a while.
I think that's what happens anyway.
back to the, um, the consciousness thing, uh, because this is the, the,
one of the reasons why we bring it up is because we had a conversation
with Jeff about the nature of, of, um, reality and the nature of consciousness.
Uh, and then we had sort of a follow up episode with Volker from Germany
who had, uh, talked a lot about this, how there can be no free will because
of the, uh, just the arrow of time.
So it's not only the lag in, in, uh, the 0.
3 second lag in your conscious experience, but it's also the simple fact that, for an
entity, for you to choose whatever neurons that happen to pop into your brain, you
would have to have like a soul outside of that brain making those decisions
because the, the biological cannot be separated from, like, you, who would
be the choosing entity and that sort of presupposes that there's something outside
of yourself making those decisions.
However, this is, uh, uh, a thing that can't, uh, I can't stop thinking about.
Quantum entanglement might solve that.
If quantum, you've heard of quantum entanglement, right?
So like particles can, uh, be entangled over space, over vast distances, but
they can also be entangled over time.
So is there a way for a particle to be entangled to the past?
in order to make a decision for you in the future.
So that your brains, that the neurons in your brain are somewhat
feedbacking back and forth in time in order for you to have free will.
I think quantum entanglement is, and this is why the whole, like, there was such
intellectual leap happening in Germany.
My mom's German actually.
Um, but happening in Germany in like the 1920s, I think it was the 20s really
around quantum, quantum, earlier than that, but quantum physics effectively.
And it just changed the entire paradox of how we understand reality.
And yet.
None of that has really filtered into our ordinary understanding
of how we view the world.
Um, I think, like, if you think about quantum entanglement, like, the entire
universe across the entire space of time could be quantum entangled, because if
it all started at, like, one point, like, effectively, It's all quantum entangles.
And another way that you might call, okay, it's like ways I think about it, like, the
university is connected in ways we don't understand, like, maybe at some point
in the future, we will figure it out the same way we figured out radio waves and
spectrum and frequency and all of that.
Maybe we'll figure it out.
But right now we don't understand it.
But I think there is enough Transcribed There's a lot of evidence that there
are ways the universe is connected, whether it's past and future, whether
it's like across space, across time, um, that we don't understand.
And there are proposals like what's called a Noosphere, N O O S P H E
R E, which, um, is this proposal.
It's effectively the ether.
Like, you know, we used to have five elements.
You know, earth, wind, fire, and water, and the ether.
Now, scientific theory has figured out that we have four states of matter.
We have solid, liquid, gas, and plasma, but it sort of got rid of the ether.
And yet, if you bring back this concept of an ether, of some, you know, some,
something that connects everything in a way we don't necessarily understand,
It actually sort of starts, potentially starts to, to fill in some of those gaps
in our understanding and what that is.
I don't know.
I think the way you explained it is super interesting, um, that there
are like previous versions of ourself that are influencing our decisions
today from a quantum perspective.
Like, that's fascinating.
yeah, there's this called, there's Noetic Sciences in the US, um, Ions,
and they have this big conscious conference in a couple of weeks,
the Science of Consciousness, which.
Has like fascinating speakers, which I think I will watch some
of remotely if I'm able to.
yeah, the other, Rupert Sheldrake calls it a morphic, morphic field, like morphic
resonance fields, and that you can, like, start creating and influencing
these morphic resonance fields.
So there's a lot of, like, different, um, ideas around, around the noosphere or the
morphic resonance field or consciousness.
Which I'm just learning about.
I think it's like, fascinating.
So, uh, we, we, we have to, we have to wrap up within the
next 25 minutes or so here.
So maybe we can, we should start gearing slightly towards a, a
conclusion to the conversation.
But, uh, but I know we'll, we'll have to, we'll have to do this again.
Uh, great to connect on, uh, uh, so many, uh, different, different levels.
Uh, here.
Uh, I, I really liked, uh, the, the, and the.
Uh, Viktor Frankl there, um, I've, I've had a whole journey
with, with Jung through, through Jordan Peterson's maps of meaning.
I've been doing a, a whole series on, on that with, with, uh, Rob Breedlove
lately, and that book is just, yeah, something, something totally different.
I don't pretend to defend the guy on it, like what he does publicly
these days, but, uh, yeah, some, some good stuff there about the,
the whole kind of meaning angle.
So we might have to dig into that again another time, but, uh, yeah,
I just wanted to get back a little bit to, uh, what, what are you and,
I guess, EgoDeath, Actually, we never got into the name of EgoDeath, so
that would be a good one if you could
explain that.
Yeah, it's kind of
amazing.
We had this idea around creating the fun name, and I'll tell you a little
bit more, and then it's, what's been fascinating, after we named it
EgoDeath, it was sort of a, we're like, well, let's just see how it goes.
It's pretty controversial, but, um, and it's been great.
And that's like, the meaning has unfolded over time almost.
So the idea came really, we were thinking about this transition we're going through
in the world from a very centralized, um, you know, model of society of money
to something that's decentralized and like this big shift that was happening
and how difficult that would be.
And so it's sort of like thinking that's sort of what we
wanted to represent was this.
Like, this huge, you know, shift where we were going from sort of each thinking
we're an individual to being part of something bigger than ourselves,
being Bitcoin and contributing to that from a very centralized ego
based model to something that's decentralized, community oriented.
And so, as we were talking about these, this sort of concept of ego death came
up of, like, we're having to shift from being an individual to being a collective.
And so that's kind of really where the name came from, you know, from
the background of, of psychedelics and meditation and these experiences that,
that, that are very, very profound of, of, of going from this individual
ego consciousness to, you know, experiencing collective consciousness
or, or, or pure consciousness.
and, but what's unfolded is like these layers of meaning in it.
So then we think about Satoshi, you know, creating Bitcoin and then anonymously and
leaving as sort of his ultimate act of ego death, but there was no ego involved.
He wanted nothing from it.
Like he's never.
You know, extracted a, you know, Satoshi from his savings.
And so that's one aspect.
And I think that's, you know, there's something that's so special about
Bitcoin that can't be replicated.
Like no other, no other chain can ever basically, I mean, at some point, but
like for that to really happen, like that's such a special thing about Bitcoin.
then we also think about ego death is, is you're, you're breaking
away or, or, uh, Or releasing the fixed ways in which you see the
world and seeing it as it truly is.
So, you know, and I think that's so related to Bitcoin because you're
actually having to question all of your ways that you see the world, give them
up, like, release the neurons in your brain, if you like, and, and to see
reality as it truly is and be able to see something, something so different.
And we use it as, as sort of an internal guide, you know, we try and
I, it's not possible all the time, but we really try and sort of have this,
like, no ego, no bullshit approach.
Um, sorry, excuse my, my language.
Um, and that's what we look for in founders.
It's not always, you know, all of us are human.
We do our best.
We try and fail and that's okay.
Um, but it is sort of like a nice guiding principle that
we try and operate as a team.
We try and do things together.
We support each other, um, and so it's sort of been that,
yeah, so it's multi layered and
still kind of uncovering it, I would say.
Yeah, this is,
this is fascinating topic.
We've been talking to other guests about this and I just can't help
because I think it's my skeptic nature that brought me to Bitcoin.
So, and my skeptic nature tells me that there's something off about
this whole, uh, Satoshi being this messianic figure that did the
ultimate act of self sacrifice.
I mean, I, as much as I love that story and I wish it to be true, we have no idea.
Of knowing whether it's actually true or not.
Satoshi could have just been hit by the bus and died the day after he sent this
last message, or Satoshi could still be around and be a nym and maybe he mined
the next million Bitcoin and he ran away with those, like there's, uh, there are
so many other possible futures here.
Or possible like explanations to that story that I have, like, I think it's,
uh, There is some danger in, in, uh, uh, painting this picture of this, uh, ego
less human being, uh, this is the slay your heroes thing, like, even Satoshi
would have to be someone we are willing to sacrifice on an altar for the sake of,
of the idea, uh, rather than the person.
That is, to me, that's like the, the core.
Nobody cares who, uh, who, um, uh, Pythagoras was, uh, uh, as a person.
Everyone cares about his equation.
So I think that's sort of how we ought to view Satoshi as well.
Uh, do you see a danger in this, uh, like viewing, um, Satoshis sacrifice as
that, when there's not a hundred percent proof that it actually was a sacrificial
thing?
Yeah, I think that's a really good point
and I hadn't necessarily thought about it like that.
I guess I have definitely, yeah, so I think that's all very valid
and, you know, maybe I will shift the way that I, that I view things.
Um, I definitely have thought, you know, if, if Satoshi came around
now and he might be, you know, Who knows what he's going to be like?
And now I think the beauty of Bitcoin is it's sort of beyond him.
Like, if he came and he wanted to try and change things, everyone would be like, no.
Um, and he doesn't have that control.
Yeah, I think, like,
what he created sort of now is beyond himself, regardless
of, of maybe the intention.
Maybe it's the CIA that created it.
I mean, I've heard all sorts of, some government, it's China, like, I
don't know if I believe those, like,
Well, I don't know.
Aliens.
Who knows?
Yeah.
I think
that's, you know, we do talk about, I think it's something
we do talk to investors about.
We do, I think, have to be also thoughtful around that there are still risks in
Bitcoin and it's not this infallible.
So I think what you said is really important, like killing our heroes,
constantly questioning, constantly, constantly, being skeptical because
I think it's so easy to fall.
It's so easy to sort of like, Get stuck in one way of viewing the world.
So
we appreciate the challenge.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's, uh, and we're only human, everyone does it, like, if, uh,
and Bitcoin fits this, like, it acts so much as an explainer for
all that's wrong with the world.
Once you view the world through a Bitcoin lens.
Everything makes sense.
Okay, this is why we have over consumerism.
This is why we have more and more draconian laws and
totalitarian states and all that.
Oh, this is why there's corruption.
This is why people are greedy.
Like, all of it makes sense.
Uh, this is why we're bad for the planet and the environmentalism and stuff.
Like, all of it makes sense when you view it through these goggles.
So it's very easy to get your, like, uh, your view of what Bitcoin is,
like, uh, to, to be set in stone at some point, and then you think it's
that, and then all of a sudden it behaves differently than you expected.
I think that's what happened to, to some of the people back
in the fork wars and stuff.
They had this view of what it was, and then it shows, then it didn't
behave as they thought it would.
And, uh, That's where I think the ego dropping comes in.
Like, uh, you need to drop your ego to, to, to rid yourself
of your own narrative of this.
I think to a certain extent, this, uh, this whole spam on the, on the
time chain, uh, thing that has, uh, emerged as an issue now, uh, these,
this last year in Bitcoin has sort of changed my views on, on what
this thing is and how robust it is.
And, uh, that it.
Like, I'm not necessarily so happy with, as happy with ossification as
I was before I saw the spam attack.
Like, uh, there could be things that we still need to solve, or there are
things that we still need to solve.
So, yeah, I don't really know where I stand.
I'm trying to figure it out.
Like, if this is best treated by being ignored or by actively fighting it.
But I need, we need to stay vigilant.
That's the only thing I do know because complacency is if, if anything, it's
complacency that will kill Bitcoin.
Like that's the, to me, that's the only attack vector we
always did, did it to ourselves.
And if we, If we kill Bitcoin, we did that to ourselves too.
I
truly believe that.
I love that.
Like constantly working at staying open minded, it's like takes constant work.
I feel like you constantly,
Yeah,
because my favorite quote on open mindedness is from Terry Pratchett,
who said like, the problem with an open mind is that people would come
along and try to put stuff in it.
So, so, uh, I think there's a lot to that.
I think, uh, open mindedness is kind of worthless if you're not
intellectually honest and like willing to, to, uh, rethink like second and
third thoughts about, about stuff and like to constantly Juggle.
Do brain gymnastics.
They're good for you.
Alright, I think we might be coming to a semi natural end to this conversation,
so Andi, is there anything else you'd like to mention or perhaps to direct
our listeners towards if they'd like to find out more about you or EgoDeath
Capital?
not
specifically.
No, uh, I'm not a huge active Twitter user.
My business partners are much bigger on Twitter than I am.
Um, our website, egodeath.
capital has a little bit more about us, our portfolio companies, um, but, uh, you
know, we, we, I think we, I try and stay in the background and let our portfolio
companies, they're the ones that are really like doing the work out there.
Um, so you can go to our website and, you know, view what they're doing, which
is, is, is really what's interesting.
Um, if you want to learn more about sort of, I guess
what the companies are doing in the world.
Fantastic.
So,
uh, Andi, thank you so much for coming on.
Uh, I mean, we have, uh, been looking forward to this conversation
for quite some time now.
Uh, great to finally have it.
And I look forward a lot to continue the conversation in
real life when, whenever we
meet the next time.
Likewise, it's been a lot of fun, uh, covered some interesting topics.
So thank you very much.
Yup, thank you, thanks again Andi, so this has been the Freedom Footprint
Show, thank you for listening.