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So,  what I wanted is just to like create a resource that you don't,

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you know, have to be, let's just say, a trained economist, or you

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are  person who's just interested in economics  and how money works.

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That you don't have to spend, you know, like hours and hours and hours

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and hours of reading of Rothbard, Hoppe, Mises,  and so on and so on.

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And then you have to figure out,  yourself, maybe reading,

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Saifedean,  okay, how can I actually put everything together?

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You know, I just wanted to have  a single thread where you actually go

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from, okay,  how does money emerge?

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How do states emerge?

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What we just talked about, and then, you know, is there another solution?

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Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint show, the Bitcoin

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philosophy show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn.

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Today, we're joined by Alexander Acer, economist, entrepreneur,

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and author of Monetary Anarchy, the separation of money and state.

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We discuss a wide range of topics, especially related to anarchy and Bitcoin.

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So let's dive in.

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Alex, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show.

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Thanks for joining us.

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Thank you, Luke.

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I'm super happy to be here.

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Yes, Alexander Eser, you've written a book called Monetary Anarchy.

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Can you tell us a bit about yourself and a bit about the book?

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Sure, sure.

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Um, to be honest, don't wanna talk too much about me because I think, uh,

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Bitcoin is the, uh, important thing, but, uh, the, uh, the necessary information

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is I'm like a uh, trained economist.

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So I studied actually economics and finance, but after university,

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I took the entrepreneurial route.

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Um, I started a online company with my, my best friend after uni.

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Uh, We're doing this now for, for seven years.

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Um, uh, These days we are actually building software, um, to be honest,

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got in and out of Bitcoin, Uh, and since, but since like three years

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ago, I'm, I'm so deep in a rabbit hole It's, uh, it's unbelievable.

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And this is the reason why I actually, um, wrote this book.

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So, um, yeah, basically a background economics and, uh,

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technology entrepreneur these days.

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All right, and what is the book about?

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the book is titled, uh, "Monetary uh, anarchy, um,.

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The separation of money and state".

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Um, It's basically the culmination of my, of my, of my personal

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journey into, into Bitcoin.

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Um, the, like, Long story short is, uh, actually, uh, heard about Bitcoin like

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first time, I think 2016 or something.

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So actually, I think quite late in comparison to, to

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most hardcore Bitcoiners.

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um, Actually get into it to 2018, but then dismissed it um, because

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this was actually um, the time when I built my first company.

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So, a lot to do and didn't have too much time to actually look into it properly.

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But two years later in 2020, so when COVID broke out, my girlfriend

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did some marketing for a shitcoin and she got paid a little bit of

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a salary in the shitcoin and she asked me whether I can look into it.

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And this is how I got the, again, into, into, into, into

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like the, the crypto sphere.

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And I think like everybody, I took a small turnaround with all of the Ethereum

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stuff, but then actually dismissed it quite quickly and found the light,

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yeah, which is, which is Bitcoin.

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bright orange light, yes.

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yeah, there you go.

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a beacon.

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Only detectable with laser eyes.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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There you go.

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There you go.

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Um, and then, um, about like specifically about the book, um, to be honest,

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like, since I was like a teenager, um, basically just interested, like,

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you know, how does the world work?

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How does politics work?

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How does, How does economics work in general?

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Right.

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Um, but, you know, There were always these questions in my head, for

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instance, you know, after the financial crisis in 2008, um, um, Why do all of

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these people get, uh, get bailed out?

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Yeah, I didn't understand.

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Um, And I actually studied economics after the crisis.

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So between 2011 and 2015, and I was actually just sitting in uni the

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whole time and just, you know, got, got teached neoclassical economics

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and asking myself, hey, this doesn't make really any sense, What, what,

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what, what they're talking about, but, um, I had to, I had to choke it.

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Yeah.

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Um, uh, And in my last semester, I actually got to get to, um,

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know the Austrian economists.

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And this was the first time that, uh, economics made sense to me.

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Um, and, um, Then I'm just like Bitcoin, just dismissed it because

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you know, the world goes on.

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And if you're not into it, then like your daily life, you're

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just like, okay, whatever.

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And, um, but then when I, when I, when I got into Bitcoin again, I just like

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rediscovered the Austrians, um, started to basically reading like all about it.

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But, um, you know, this time, not because I had to, or because it was

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like part of my university studies, but just out of pure interest.

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And, um, Um, like everything I learned about it, um, is basically what I've

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written in my book and basically extended like the Austrian, uh, literature,

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um, with, with Bitcoin, because obviously, uh, Ludwig von Mises, uh,

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didn't know Bitcoin, uh, in his time.

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We assume, I mean, Bitcoin was around, it's just that the hash rate was zero

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at the time, so it was hard to detect.

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, and mAybe the hashtag was not even calculated by a computer, but, um,

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basically with a pencil on a white paper.

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Yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe someone tried to find element zero somewhere out there.

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We can never know.

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Maybe on another planet, but in that case it would be outside of our hash

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horizon and we would never know.

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all right.

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So,  we've had a similar journey, it seems like, stumbling on, Austrian economics

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after Bitcoin, but being, you know, anarcho capitalist curious, before that.

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And then,  just having to deep dive because it's too interesting.

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I mean the first book that comes to mind when we talk about Austrian

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economics and Bitcoin is of course, the Bitcoin standard  by Saifedean Ammous.

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So how inspired were you by that book and, what separates your book  from that book?

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Like how are they different and from other Bitcoin books  and

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Austrian economics books?

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Yeah, I think what Saifedean did, actually also helped me a lot to, to

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understand everything because what he did is that he actually put it into

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a economic context, which is great.

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But, um, what I was lacking a little bit, and this is why also,  I'm talking more

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about,  political economy, is actually, let's just say the political side of it.

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The question nowadays we are organized, uh, in the form of statism.

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But really thinking about, okay, why are they even states, you

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know, like, why do we need them?

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We don't.

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yeah, correct, correct, correct.

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Um, and what my book is doing, um, maybe we can actually get into, get

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into the status in part because I think actually the main differentiator, but,

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um, what I'm really trying to do is to, um, build a thread um, between money

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and, um, like the organization of us.

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As human beings in a society.

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So first answering the question.

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Okay.

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Um, uh, Why do we need money?

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Um, uh, Probably we haven't get, uh, we, we don't have to get into

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this, uh, because, um, uh, I think the, the, the answer is clear.

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You know, we need, uh, like a medium of exchange.

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So we don't, uh, we don't have to barter with each other.

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Um, But what you didn't see over the arc of history is obviously

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that money always gets corrupted.

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Yeah.

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So you always have like a central power, which um, which, which coerces um, uh,

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the money supply and uh, like inflates the, the, the, the money we have.

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Um, But this begs the question, obviously.

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Okay.

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If we always have like the central power, which is coercing money, why

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do we even need the central power?

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Right.

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Um, and the question which actually arises there, um, is if we were like

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on a completely new planet or, um, in a completely fresh society, um,

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how would we organize ourselves?

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Yeah.

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Like, um, do we need a state or can we actually live in anarchy?

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Um, and, uh, the you, you quickly, uh, get into is how do we resolve conflicts?

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Because, um, The truth of the matter is, um, let's just say we, we,

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we, we fight for, not even fight.

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Yeah.

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But let's just say, um, we are on this beautiful new planet and there is, um,

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one side to build a house next to a river.

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And I was the first, but maybe one of you guys also want to build your house there.

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Um,, and there are like no rules.

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Yeah.

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So how do we decide who's able to put their house there.

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So, um, like that's the reason why they are like conflicts.

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Um, and We, as human beings, if we were like completely rational, there's

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a principle by Hoppe, which is called the non aggression principle, which

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basically says, okay, um, whoever is like the first owner of something, uh,

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um, has also the right to it, right?

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Like it's, it's, it's,

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Homesteading, as Rothbard puts it, yeah.

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But the problem is, we human beings, we are usually not so rational, we

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are not like, oh, okay, he was there first, and now it's like all his, right?

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But we fight for our own right, and we try to get the better

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of each other, especially if in the, in the absence of law.

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So there is this problem of, of, of, um, of a conflict and how

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to like resolve this conflict.

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And this is how actually states emerge because, um, usually how those

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conflicts are resolved is by like an arbitrator who actually decides,

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okay, who of you, um, was there first?

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Okay, then this is, this is, this is your land or this is, uh, this

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is, this is,, this is your land.

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Um, So now the question becomes, okay, Who are those arbitrators

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and who is electing them?

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Yeah.

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And then when we actually think of like a,, let's just say human

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pecking order, let's maybe imagine we are all back in kindergarten.

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Um, Usually in kindergarten, there's also like a social hierarchy, right?

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Where like not a kindergarten teacher tells, Hey, uh, you

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are the most popular kid.

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Yeah.

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And now everybody has to do what you want.

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But usually like the children are with each other.

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There is like a natural, let's just say a leader.

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Yeah.

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Like, um, this leader can be.

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Whatever, of size, whatever, like he's already taller than anybody

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else or is maybe the smartest girl.

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I don't know.

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Yeah.

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But, um, people are like, we human beings, we are drawn to natural leaders.

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So, um, the first, um, let's just say societal structure, which usually, um,

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arises in, in, in humanity, it's like an it's like an, um, Aristocracy, um, because

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you have like these natural leaders, um, who are, um, you know, are more wealthy

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due to their hard labor or whatever.

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And those people are usually the first like judges who are trying to, um, who

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are trying to, um, organize society.

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Um, and then let's just say, uh, history goes on, yeah, out of

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aristocrats, uh, becomes uh, kings.

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Uh, How's this happening?

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Because usually, like, uh, if you have, uh, like not a final court,

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00:10:49,031 --> 00:10:53,771
uh, if you don't have like a final, um, uh, arbitrator, um, you can

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go from court to court to court to court and fight your decision

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again and again and again and again.

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But sometimes you just need like a final decision, right?

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00:11:02,171 --> 00:11:05,541
Um, And this is how the concept of like a king evolved that you have like an

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arbitrators of arbitrators who's like the, who has like the final word, uh, word.

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00:11:10,121 --> 00:11:16,401
But in this like state of the world, um, there is no, let's just

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00:11:16,471 --> 00:11:18,371
say, king with special rights.

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00:11:18,411 --> 00:11:20,151
Because when we think of kings, right?

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We are thinking of a person who's like a natural born king,

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who's like from a royal family.

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And who is like the, the, the, uh, what's like the right to rule.

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Yeah.

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But, um, this is not like, uh, the same definition of, of the word king,

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because in this world that we only have aristocrats, um, we have just to say one

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aristocrat who actually shines among.

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All others who has whatever the most merit as a natural leader.

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Um, and this person actually can take advantage of his position

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because then he's like, look, you know, um, the commoners or like,

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uh, the, like most people think I'm the most popular of all of you guys.

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Then he actually goes to the normal people and, uh, can, can

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tell them, look, if you crown me.

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Your king officially.

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Yeah.

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Um, then I can help you guys to get rid of all of the other aristocrats

233
00:12:08,641 --> 00:12:12,211
because in the society, usually aristocrats own, you know, wells, their

234
00:12:12,211 --> 00:12:14,191
own land, their own, um, property.

235
00:12:14,371 --> 00:12:19,801
Um, and then, um, uh, the king asks them, look, um, if you have

236
00:12:19,801 --> 00:12:23,731
debt with those aristocrats and you elect me as a king, then I'll, uh,

237
00:12:23,731 --> 00:12:24,901
relieve you of all of your debt.

238
00:12:25,441 --> 00:12:29,911
The only thing I have to ask you is I'm the ruler, so I make the laws.

239
00:12:30,236 --> 00:12:36,756
And, um, uh, you, you, you give me some taxes and, uh, this is basically, um,

240
00:12:36,826 --> 00:12:41,736
how like Kings could have emerged, not as like a, um, let's just say royal,

241
00:12:41,986 --> 00:12:44,986
um, uh, person out of, out of nothing.

242
00:12:45,056 --> 00:12:47,996
Um, but based on like a market mechanism, right.

243
00:12:48,346 --> 00:12:48,686
And then.

244
00:12:49,151 --> 00:12:50,281
Time goes on, time goes on.

245
00:12:50,501 --> 00:12:54,521
Um, and we forget the concept of aristocrats, right?

246
00:12:54,521 --> 00:12:58,011
Because humanity forgets, okay, where, where does the law come from?

247
00:12:58,261 --> 00:12:59,601
Obviously the king makes the law.

248
00:12:59,731 --> 00:12:59,881
Okay.

249
00:12:59,881 --> 00:13:01,171
But how was it before?

250
00:13:01,211 --> 00:13:01,441
Right.

251
00:13:01,891 --> 00:13:06,871
Um, and as time goes on, we just forget and we just take the king, um,

252
00:13:06,951 --> 00:13:08,811
for granted and then fast forward.

253
00:13:09,361 --> 00:13:14,021
To nowadays, um, we have the concept of democracy, right?

254
00:13:14,081 --> 00:13:21,161
So, uh, kings are long gone, um, they have like a representative function,

255
00:13:21,201 --> 00:13:23,761
maybe in Spain and England and some other countries, but they are

256
00:13:23,761 --> 00:13:25,241
not like political actors anymore.

257
00:13:25,751 --> 00:13:27,071
Um, So how.

258
00:13:27,451 --> 00:13:29,841
Could it be that states evolved over kings?

259
00:13:30,091 --> 00:13:32,071
Uh, More or less it's the same.

260
00:13:32,131 --> 00:13:34,111
It's the same thinking as before.

261
00:13:34,211 --> 00:13:34,351
Yeah.

262
00:13:34,551 --> 00:13:39,881
Um, the king had a court and in this court were, uh, the, the former, uh, the

263
00:13:39,891 --> 00:13:46,491
former um, aristocrats and also, um, maybe some intellectuals who are like, uh, you

264
00:13:46,491 --> 00:13:48,051
know, doing the propaganda of the king.

265
00:13:48,051 --> 00:13:50,561
Like nowadays, maybe TV is doing the propaganda for the state.

266
00:13:50,591 --> 00:13:56,206
And earlier it was like, um, uh, Proper intellectuals who are like, maybe

267
00:13:56,206 --> 00:13:58,966
they're maybe like monks and priests who were like the first writing books

268
00:13:59,136 --> 00:14:02,396
and they were like in the service of the king, um, spreading his word.

269
00:14:03,016 --> 00:14:06,596
Um, and then obviously for those intellectuals, it's quite

270
00:14:06,676 --> 00:14:10,666
easy to say, look, I'm actually doing propaganda for this guy.

271
00:14:10,976 --> 00:14:17,036
Um, but isn't it unfair that one person has all of this power and usually I, as a

272
00:14:17,036 --> 00:14:21,576
priest, yeah, I'm far better suited to be the representative of all of the people.

273
00:14:22,656 --> 00:14:27,456
And then over time, um, this concept evolves where, um, you have this

274
00:14:27,556 --> 00:14:31,366
uprising when you kill one single family, you have all of this wealth

275
00:14:31,906 --> 00:14:37,256
supposedly, yeah, um, supposedly, um, spreading over the whole society.

276
00:14:37,526 --> 00:14:42,071
And this is how we ended up with uh, with, with, uh, democracies and states nowadays.

277
00:14:45,381 --> 00:14:50,131
But the problem there is that when you go from this natural society

278
00:14:50,131 --> 00:14:52,171
where we all have the same law, right?

279
00:14:52,561 --> 00:14:57,511
In this society, like coming back to money, in this society, we

280
00:14:57,551 --> 00:14:59,061
all decide what money is, right?

281
00:14:59,111 --> 00:15:02,831
Like the money is, um, you know, something scarce.

282
00:15:03,641 --> 00:15:06,201
It could be gold, could be silver, could be copper, could

283
00:15:06,201 --> 00:15:07,221
be shells, yeah, whatever.

284
00:15:07,421 --> 00:15:12,261
But we all decide what's money and nobody can push like top down on

285
00:15:12,261 --> 00:15:15,701
us, um, what's supposed to be money.

286
00:15:15,901 --> 00:15:17,031
It's like a bottom up process.

287
00:15:17,391 --> 00:15:23,621
Um, And over time, when we actually, first, we are not losing the right um,

288
00:15:23,911 --> 00:15:25,301
to decide what is money to the state.

289
00:15:25,301 --> 00:15:28,011
The first right we actually give up is lawmaking.

290
00:15:29,241 --> 00:15:33,111
And with this lawmaking, the state can then decide, okay, I have to

291
00:15:33,111 --> 00:15:34,321
centralize power over the law.

292
00:15:34,381 --> 00:15:35,591
And now I decide what money is.

293
00:15:35,721 --> 00:15:39,881
And then you have this top down process where states force the

294
00:15:39,881 --> 00:15:42,511
money production upon society.

295
00:15:44,075 --> 00:15:51,105
That's a very L T L D R, but anyway, yeah, and after they have invented

296
00:15:51,105 --> 00:15:55,918
the money printer, they basically cannot run out of funds, right?

297
00:15:56,190 --> 00:15:59,430
And, uh, therefore they cannot run out of power, so that is why

298
00:15:59,430 --> 00:16:01,130
they grow like cancers everywhere.

299
00:16:01,380 --> 00:16:04,080
and, uh, take more and more control over people's lives.

300
00:16:04,750 --> 00:16:08,350
I recently read a short book called Beyond Democracy.

301
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,960
Uh, I don't remember the author's name, but it was very, very similar

302
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,670
to Hoppe's, Democracy, The God That Failed, that I guess you've read.

303
00:16:16,913 --> 00:16:18,873
which makes good arguments for...

304
00:16:19,233 --> 00:16:26,953
Why democracy is inherently socialist, inherently collectivist in nature,

305
00:16:27,593 --> 00:16:32,603
and very few people dare to think outside that box because we're,

306
00:16:33,053 --> 00:16:37,483
we're spoon fed propaganda about democracy  from a very early age

307
00:16:37,553 --> 00:16:39,553
that this is the rule of the people.

308
00:16:39,688 --> 00:16:45,098
And therefore it cannot be questioned, when it's really not, ethical thing would

309
00:16:45,108 --> 00:16:49,958
be people ruling over their own lives, which is not the case in a democracy.

310
00:16:50,448 --> 00:16:57,088
Democracy tends to people trying to extract resources from other people in

311
00:16:57,088 --> 00:16:58,748
order to enrich themselves, which is.

312
00:16:59,181 --> 00:17:01,130
Detrimental to society as a whole.

313
00:17:01,573 --> 00:17:03,913
yeah, so, so  when did you release this book?

314
00:17:03,993 --> 00:17:05,083
how long has it been out?

315
00:17:05,771 --> 00:17:07,351
actually in May this year.

316
00:17:07,896 --> 00:17:13,006
And so a couple of months already, um, to be honest, I'm just starting to

317
00:17:13,006 --> 00:17:16,786
do some podcasts now because, um, you know, I have to, I still have to like

318
00:17:16,786 --> 00:17:18,446
work in my, in my, in my other day job.

319
00:17:18,506 --> 00:17:18,716
Yeah..

320
00:17:18,786 --> 00:17:22,526
So it's not, it's not that I can spend and dedicate my whole time to

321
00:17:22,526 --> 00:17:23,716
it, which I actually would love to.

322
00:17:23,716 --> 00:17:25,876
So I'm really doing this, let's just say in the, in the service of

323
00:17:26,096 --> 00:17:30,276
Bitcoin, um, because for me, you know, what's, what's most important, um,

324
00:17:30,441 --> 00:17:34,641
Like coming back to like getting into Bitcoin, um, because probably, um, you

325
00:17:34,781 --> 00:17:36,361
had the same urge like, like I did.

326
00:17:36,751 --> 00:17:40,291
Um,, you feel like you found out a secret and you are like the only

327
00:17:40,541 --> 00:17:44,051
person knowing the secret and you first want to tell everybody about it.

328
00:17:44,051 --> 00:17:44,071
Yeah.

329
00:17:44,321 --> 00:17:47,791
And then basically I just told everybody and I could really see, okay, shit.

330
00:17:48,161 --> 00:17:50,461
People are not doing the work and they just like label me.

331
00:17:50,461 --> 00:17:50,651
Okay.

332
00:17:50,651 --> 00:17:53,481
This person is crazy now, you know, and,

333
00:17:53,836 --> 00:17:55,256
I, I know that journey.

334
00:17:57,781 --> 00:18:02,315
so what I, what I wanted is just to like create a resource that, um, you don't,

335
00:18:02,525 --> 00:18:05,545
you know, have to, be let's just say you are, you know, a trained economist or,

336
00:18:05,545 --> 00:18:09,385
um, you are person who's just interested in economics  and how money works.

337
00:18:09,825 --> 00:18:12,475
That you don't have to spend, you know, like hours and hours and hours

338
00:18:12,475 --> 00:18:16,255
and hours of reading of Rothbard, Hoppe, Mises, um, and so on and so on.

339
00:18:16,405 --> 00:18:18,875
And then you have to figure out,  yourself, maybe reading,

340
00:18:18,925 --> 00:18:21,805
Saifedean,  okay, how can I actually put everything together?

341
00:18:21,975 --> 00:18:25,335
You know, I just wanted to have like a, a single thread where you actually go

342
00:18:25,345 --> 00:18:27,695
from, okay, um, how does money emerge?

343
00:18:27,885 --> 00:18:28,945
How do states emerge?

344
00:18:29,415 --> 00:18:33,051
What we just talked about, and then, you know, is there another solution, which

345
00:18:33,181 --> 00:18:34,661
we could, we can, we can talk about now.

346
00:18:34,931 --> 00:18:38,211
Um, but then also how does, how does Bitcoin fit into everything?

347
00:18:38,551 --> 00:18:41,541
if you are like, like new to, to, to let's just say the Bitcoin space, I

348
00:18:41,721 --> 00:18:43,241
think it's a cool resource just the

349
00:18:47,221 --> 00:18:48,141
Austrian literature.

350
00:18:48,416 --> 00:18:50,746
But also including the Hoppe stuff.

351
00:18:50,946 --> 00:18:54,836
So, um, the, the, the political and status inside of this, and

352
00:18:54,836 --> 00:18:56,946
not only economics and Bitcoin.

353
00:18:57,790 --> 00:19:03,123
Did you ever hear about, Alexander Svetsky's, uh, the spirit of Satoshi ai,

354
00:19:03,911 --> 00:19:06,011
I mean, I don't know him personally, but I actually, I

355
00:19:06,011 --> 00:19:07,141
think I heard about the project.

356
00:19:07,181 --> 00:19:08,671
I've, I've read the book of him.

357
00:19:08,718 --> 00:19:10,788
but can you like remind me what this

358
00:19:11,138 --> 00:19:16,608
uh, it's, it's an AI that is trained on, uh, bitcoin literature and Mises

359
00:19:16,628 --> 00:19:18,698
literature, uh, like adjacent things.

360
00:19:19,231 --> 00:19:24,648
so the ai, comes up with answers based on that instead of based on random

361
00:19:24,648 --> 00:19:28,968
information on the internet, plus, uh, a couple of political correctness

362
00:19:28,968 --> 00:19:34,733
filters as, as other do so, so, uh, maybe you should contact him, uh, about.

363
00:19:35,278 --> 00:19:40,408
I'm just adding the book to the brain of the spirit of Satoshi.

364
00:19:40,461 --> 00:19:40,813
Yeah.

365
00:19:41,373 --> 00:19:41,843
That would be nice.

366
00:19:41,843 --> 00:19:42,503
That would be nice.

367
00:19:42,763 --> 00:19:43,043
Cool.

368
00:19:43,043 --> 00:19:45,783
I haven't seen the project yet, but actually this sounds a very, like a

369
00:19:45,803 --> 00:19:49,393
very good idea because I know from like firsthand experience that,

370
00:19:49,513 --> 00:19:54,493
um, at least the chat GPT AI is already, uh, filtering, interesting

371
00:19:54,523 --> 00:19:58,403
things out or label stuff, uh, very controversial, which actually are not.

372
00:19:59,613 --> 00:19:59,833
Yeah.

373
00:19:59,833 --> 00:20:00,143
Yeah.

374
00:20:00,419 --> 00:20:01,449
that's another thing.

375
00:20:01,559 --> 00:20:03,859
Uh, we probably need more of it.

376
00:20:04,196 --> 00:20:08,896
you know, competing AIs,  that right now people are using chat GPT

377
00:20:08,936 --> 00:20:11,849
mostly, at least for text prompts.

378
00:20:11,850 --> 00:20:16,333
Um, but, some, some healthy market competition there is

379
00:20:16,373 --> 00:20:17,623
probably not a bad thing.

380
00:20:18,633 --> 00:20:20,063
Yes, yes, most certainly.

381
00:20:20,063 --> 00:20:23,273
And also, um, to be honest, I don't want to relieve, uh, like my whole

382
00:20:23,273 --> 00:20:25,613
data to like a corporation somewhere.

383
00:20:25,973 --> 00:20:30,163
This is the next thing where I'm a little bit like, uh, whatever we do nowadays

384
00:20:30,433 --> 00:20:33,473
seems to be, uh, more centralized, more centralized, more centralized.

385
00:20:33,633 --> 00:20:35,823
That's the reason why I think it's very important what we're doing.

386
00:20:36,803 --> 00:20:37,173
Yeah.

387
00:20:37,476 --> 00:20:41,856
Luke, do you have any questions for Alexander that pop into your mind?

388
00:20:42,276 --> 00:20:42,946
Yeah, sure.

389
00:20:42,946 --> 00:20:47,656
So, so you've talked about the historical context of how states

390
00:20:47,696 --> 00:20:52,966
emerge, then where do you go  from there into the Bitcoin of it all?

391
00:20:52,966 --> 00:20:54,896
What's the connection there that you're making?

392
00:20:55,441 --> 00:20:56,291
Yeah, sure.

393
00:20:56,574 --> 00:21:00,031
before we get into the Bitcoin part, um, maybe let's get into the anarchy

394
00:21:00,031 --> 00:21:02,374
part, which sounds very, very bad.

395
00:21:02,374 --> 00:21:02,624
Yeah.

396
00:21:02,644 --> 00:21:06,504
But, uh, so the, so this word anarchy has like a very, bad connotation, right?

397
00:21:06,544 --> 00:21:07,674
So if I would tell my

398
00:21:07,719 --> 00:21:08,369
Not to us.

399
00:21:09,109 --> 00:21:10,519
Yeah, probably, probably.

400
00:21:10,589 --> 00:21:13,169
But if I would like tell a person in the street, let's live on

401
00:21:13,169 --> 00:21:16,189
anarchy, people would look at you and be like, okay, what's going on?

402
00:21:16,409 --> 00:21:20,099
and I have to admit, you know, like, um, years ago, um, to be honest, if, if, if

403
00:21:20,159 --> 00:21:24,539
you would have told me, anarchy, I would think immediately of like Antifa and

404
00:21:24,539 --> 00:21:26,599
like a left wing, , extreme organization.

405
00:21:26,699 --> 00:21:26,719
Yeah.

406
00:21:27,239 --> 00:21:30,229
But,  the truth of the matter is, Anarchy at the end of the day just

407
00:21:30,299 --> 00:21:32,529
means rules without a ruler, right?

408
00:21:32,689 --> 00:21:35,379
So it doesn't mean there are no rules, yeah?

409
00:21:35,399 --> 00:21:40,239
Because the other rules we are all making, it just means that there is nobody who's

410
00:21:40,309 --> 00:21:42,839
like the central point of rulemaking.

411
00:21:43,339 --> 00:21:49,439
And to me, anarchy is the answer or it's like another possibility to the

412
00:21:49,439 --> 00:21:51,090
question do we need states Right?

413
00:21:51,340 --> 00:21:56,939
So if we know, okay, states over time have centralized power, have coerced our money,

414
00:21:57,179 --> 00:21:59,939
have coerced our societal organization.

415
00:22:00,431 --> 00:22:01,511
What is the answer to that?

416
00:22:01,681 --> 00:22:03,911
And possible answer is, is, anarchy.

417
00:22:04,241 --> 00:22:06,741
And just to get this bad picture out of your mind.

418
00:22:07,044 --> 00:22:11,674
what I'm always like giving as an example is that the market for, for dating.

419
00:22:11,834 --> 00:22:11,924
Yeah.

420
00:22:12,094 --> 00:22:15,924
So a lot of relationships, this market is incomplete anarchy

421
00:22:16,014 --> 00:22:17,614
it's like in complete anarchy.

422
00:22:17,614 --> 00:22:20,784
We don't have a single person who is like centrally ordering

423
00:22:20,814 --> 00:22:23,714
people to get married, to have children, whatever, like everything.

424
00:22:23,789 --> 00:22:26,599
it's, it's, somewhat depends on what country you're born in.

425
00:22:27,109 --> 00:22:27,969
Sure, sure.

426
00:22:28,129 --> 00:22:30,899
But let's just say in the West, yeah, in the West, it's like

427
00:22:30,899 --> 00:22:34,299
complete, it's complete anarchy on this market for, for dating.

428
00:22:34,669 --> 00:22:37,249
And, um, this market, I think works quite well.

429
00:22:37,319 --> 00:22:37,509
Yeah.

430
00:22:37,849 --> 00:22:44,079
So, um, we do not need a central planner to, for, for, for our

431
00:22:44,079 --> 00:22:46,799
relationships to, to make things work.

432
00:22:47,759 --> 00:22:51,789
So, like, the word anarchy doesn't have to have this, like, super bad connotation.

433
00:22:52,109 --> 00:22:56,919
And now the question becomes, okay, how can you build in society based

434
00:22:57,089 --> 00:23:01,119
on this, um, on this, on this, on this, on this premise of anarchy?

435
00:23:01,849 --> 00:23:04,629
Um, and usually there are like two ways to do it.

436
00:23:04,729 --> 00:23:08,059
The first we already like talked a little bit about earlier, um, based

437
00:23:08,149 --> 00:23:10,919
on this, um, non aggression principle.

438
00:23:11,059 --> 00:23:12,339
So, uh, based on morals.

439
00:23:12,704 --> 00:23:17,644
So, um, if we all had like no emotions and we're like super rational beings

440
00:23:17,834 --> 00:23:23,164
and all of us accepted, okay, if person A is the proprietor of product

441
00:23:23,344 --> 00:23:27,164
A, yeah, then I, as a person B, I'm not allowed to take it away from him.

442
00:23:27,524 --> 00:23:30,104
Um, and we would all live with each other.

443
00:23:30,859 --> 00:23:31,479
Reasoning.

444
00:23:31,619 --> 00:23:31,879
Yeah.

445
00:23:31,989 --> 00:23:34,669
But the problem is, this is not how humans work because

446
00:23:34,719 --> 00:23:36,629
humans usually are not machines.

447
00:23:36,629 --> 00:23:36,859
Yeah.

448
00:23:36,859 --> 00:23:37,469
They have emotions.

449
00:23:37,779 --> 00:23:42,979
They have, um, they have,, they have desires and they have wants, um, and

450
00:23:43,279 --> 00:23:45,309
this is why the system usually fails.

451
00:23:45,529 --> 00:23:49,539
Um, and this is also why, as alluded earlier, we have,

452
00:23:49,599 --> 00:23:50,599
we have violent conflicts.

453
00:23:51,429 --> 00:23:53,659
Um, so.

454
00:23:55,004 --> 00:23:58,284
I think it's possible to say, okay, we can live without a ruler, but

455
00:23:58,724 --> 00:24:05,344
we have to find a way how, um, how, how, uh, we would protect us from,

456
00:24:05,574 --> 00:24:09,944
um, actors who are not obeying this non aggression principle, who...

457
00:24:10,604 --> 00:24:15,194
Try to take stuff away, uh, from, from me or from you, um, with the violence.

458
00:24:15,714 --> 00:24:19,544
And what basically let's just say literature says, yeah, is that you

459
00:24:19,544 --> 00:24:25,584
can, um, also, um, build a society based on like the market mechanism.

460
00:24:25,964 --> 00:24:27,874
So if we all have a need.

461
00:24:28,139 --> 00:24:29,679
For protection from violence.

462
00:24:29,929 --> 00:24:30,189
Okay.

463
00:24:30,189 --> 00:24:30,619
What happens?

464
00:24:30,739 --> 00:24:34,009
They are like smart entrepreneurs out there who would build a service who would

465
00:24:34,019 --> 00:24:37,149
then protect us from, from violent actors.

466
00:24:37,259 --> 00:24:41,449
So it's like a service you can, you can, you can, um, you can consume.

467
00:24:41,549 --> 00:24:41,759
Yeah.

468
00:24:42,069 --> 00:24:49,004
Um, and now like Thinking about this a bit more, um, it would

469
00:24:49,044 --> 00:24:50,694
obviously be easy to argue.

470
00:24:50,854 --> 00:24:51,054
Yeah.

471
00:24:51,264 --> 00:24:51,784
Okay.

472
00:24:51,854 --> 00:24:56,584
Um, then we have like these little protection agencies, um, who are

473
00:24:56,854 --> 00:24:58,114
protecting us from violent actors.

474
00:24:58,304 --> 00:25:00,744
But what's, what, what's happening if there's a conflict?

475
00:25:01,164 --> 00:25:04,374
And both of the people involved in the conflict, they both,

476
00:25:04,564 --> 00:25:06,654
um, have a protection agency.

477
00:25:06,894 --> 00:25:09,314
Would the protection agencies not fight with each other then?

478
00:25:09,544 --> 00:25:13,604
And then in the end, there would emerge one big protection agency and,

479
00:25:13,654 --> 00:25:17,724
um, this big protection agency would be somehow like a state or something.

480
00:25:19,424 --> 00:25:21,394
The answer is no, this would not happen.

481
00:25:27,214 --> 00:25:30,554
Because what would happen in the society is that.

482
00:25:32,084 --> 00:25:36,234
When the protection agencies fight each other, and if they're not resolving their

483
00:25:36,234 --> 00:25:41,754
conflicts peacefully, they would have like very high costs because imagine

484
00:25:42,334 --> 00:25:47,064
whenever you try to get the, to get the better of a other, of like a different

485
00:25:47,124 --> 00:25:54,064
agency, um, you would have high costs because your own people would maybe die

486
00:25:54,114 --> 00:25:57,464
or your own people would, um, you know, You have to, you have to replace them.

487
00:25:57,894 --> 00:26:01,914
So, um, what those protection agencies would do, they would try to find a

488
00:26:01,914 --> 00:26:03,444
peaceful solution to the conflict.

489
00:26:03,534 --> 00:26:10,014
So, um, as we said before, in this, um, in this example, the law does

490
00:26:10,014 --> 00:26:14,544
not have to be made, um, top down by like a central authority law

491
00:26:14,574 --> 00:26:16,954
can also be, um, made bottom up.

492
00:26:17,134 --> 00:26:23,209
So, um, If all of the protection agencies have the need to, um, solve a conflict

493
00:26:23,239 --> 00:26:24,879
peacefully again, what would happen?

494
00:26:24,909 --> 00:26:26,209
The market would provide a solution.

495
00:26:26,469 --> 00:26:30,489
So the market, um, recognizes, uh, the need for like an arbitrator.

496
00:26:30,699 --> 00:26:34,509
And then as like protection services evolve, also arbitration

497
00:26:34,509 --> 00:26:35,509
services would evolve.

498
00:26:35,759 --> 00:26:40,739
So, um, like I, as a printer, I, as an entrepreneur, I can basically offer.

499
00:26:41,219 --> 00:26:47,609
My service, okay, I'm now an arbitrator and in my court, this law is the rule.

500
00:26:47,899 --> 00:26:51,729
And then this protection services, they can actually contract me if they both

501
00:26:51,759 --> 00:26:56,269
agree, okay, if we have a conflict, we go to Alex, he will solve our conflict.

502
00:26:56,749 --> 00:27:01,379
And then they can actually take my understanding of the law or like the law.

503
00:27:03,619 --> 00:27:08,099
And then they can market this law to their, um, to their users.

504
00:27:08,279 --> 00:27:11,649
So to their consumers, um, so to the, to the, to the end user.

505
00:27:11,909 --> 00:27:16,079
And then over time, the end user would decide, okay, um, to which

506
00:27:16,079 --> 00:27:17,969
protection agency do I subscribe?

507
00:27:17,969 --> 00:27:23,075
So, um, To whom do I give like my, my, my money?

508
00:27:23,225 --> 00:27:27,365
And, um, over time, like a law system would evolve, which basically means

509
00:27:27,815 --> 00:27:32,795
the most popular, like the law we live by, would be like the most

510
00:27:32,795 --> 00:27:35,345
popular law, um, in this, in society.

511
00:27:35,885 --> 00:27:36,425
Um.

512
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:38,000
What would that mean?

513
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,560
This would mean, um, that the law, um, is not 100 percent similar.

514
00:27:42,790 --> 00:27:47,470
So there's not one single law, but, uh, bear in mind nowadays, there's also

515
00:27:47,530 --> 00:27:49,300
not one single health insurance, right?

516
00:27:49,300 --> 00:27:50,370
Like health insurance.

517
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,100
We all know what we, what we talk about when we talk about health insurance, but

518
00:27:53,180 --> 00:27:55,060
it's different in different countries.

519
00:27:55,130 --> 00:27:57,390
And also it's different even within a country.

520
00:27:57,460 --> 00:28:01,685
So if you go to like private health insurance in the US, Um, they are like

521
00:28:01,725 --> 00:28:05,695
whatever 500 offerings, all of them are slightly different, but they're

522
00:28:05,955 --> 00:28:10,715
similar enough that, um, the consumer recognizes them as, - um, health insurance

523
00:28:11,155 --> 00:28:13,315
and the same would happen to, to law.

524
00:28:13,435 --> 00:28:17,255
So we would have maybe 500 different laws and the 500, the

525
00:28:17,265 --> 00:28:18,535
different arbitration services.

526
00:28:19,185 --> 00:28:23,895
Um, but the law would still be more or less the same except for, um,

527
00:28:23,955 --> 00:28:26,425
small, um, differences like, okay.

528
00:28:26,885 --> 00:28:32,325
In this area, the death penalty is part of the law, but in another

529
00:28:32,435 --> 00:28:34,475
area, it's not part of the law.

530
00:28:34,715 --> 00:28:38,355
So people would move to the law they want to live by.

531
00:28:39,055 --> 00:28:42,915
And when you actually think this through, you would get like very,

532
00:28:42,925 --> 00:28:49,295
like, we would say, you know, weird, weird law systems, because there

533
00:28:49,295 --> 00:28:53,255
might be a place where like hard drugs like heroin are completely illegal.

534
00:28:53,685 --> 00:28:54,075
But why?

535
00:28:54,145 --> 00:28:57,315
Because all of the people who want to consume heroin, they will all live there.

536
00:28:57,635 --> 00:29:01,245
And if I'm not living there, then like, what do I care?

537
00:29:01,345 --> 00:29:01,685
Right.

538
00:29:01,905 --> 00:29:05,664
So, um, there is no, there is no conflict if everybody wants to, wants,

539
00:29:05,665 --> 00:29:11,955
wants the same in this, in this, in this area, um, in the system.

540
00:29:12,250 --> 00:29:16,910
Um, it's hard, you know, to get your mind around this concept.

541
00:29:16,970 --> 00:29:17,470
Okay.

542
00:29:17,540 --> 00:29:21,670
Um, law and fire and law and protection from violence doesn't

543
00:29:21,690 --> 00:29:23,010
have to be organized by the state.

544
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:24,690
It can be organized by the market.

545
00:29:24,780 --> 00:29:27,270
Like everything can be organized by the market and.

546
00:29:27,675 --> 00:29:32,905
As we are living in a world where this is not the case, it's easy to

547
00:29:32,965 --> 00:29:35,355
forget this power of the market.

548
00:29:36,955 --> 00:29:41,375
The counter argument I usually get, or which is also quite true,

549
00:29:41,675 --> 00:29:45,965
is there's a concept which is called the tragedy of the commons.

550
00:29:46,165 --> 00:29:49,335
And tragedy of the commons basically means a public good.

551
00:29:49,705 --> 00:29:52,075
So for instance, a firefighting service.

552
00:29:52,220 --> 00:29:58,020
So if I was living in the society, um, in a, in a city, um, obviously,

553
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,990
um, we need a firefighting service, but the problem quickly becomes, okay,

554
00:30:03,220 --> 00:30:04,910
who needs a firefighting service?

555
00:30:04,910 --> 00:30:06,380
And the answer is everybody.

556
00:30:06,630 --> 00:30:10,880
And as everybody needs us, like the, uh, the willingness to pay for it.

557
00:30:11,130 --> 00:30:12,895
It's like, Super low.

558
00:30:12,995 --> 00:30:13,465
Why?

559
00:30:13,675 --> 00:30:17,815
Because, um, I know, okay, everybody else will pay for it because we all need it.

560
00:30:17,985 --> 00:30:20,805
So I don't have to pay for it because I will be covered with it anyways.

561
00:30:20,875 --> 00:30:26,055
Because if, if the, if, if my house burns, they will just, um, they will, they will

562
00:30:26,055 --> 00:30:30,005
make sure it doesn't burn anymore because otherwise the house of my neighbor also

563
00:30:30,005 --> 00:30:31,685
burns and he might be protected, right?

564
00:30:32,055 --> 00:30:37,170
So, um, you have this concept of public goods and, um, Like one big

565
00:30:37,190 --> 00:30:40,430
argument for democracy is, hey, we need the central authority to

566
00:30:40,430 --> 00:30:41,850
overcome this problem of public goods.

567
00:30:42,340 --> 00:30:47,580
Um, but a very cool counter argument to this is, um, if we are thinking

568
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,790
about restaurants, charity and tipping, yeah, why are we tipping

569
00:30:51,830 --> 00:30:53,580
restaurants everywhere in the world?

570
00:30:54,020 --> 00:30:57,040
At first sight, like doesn't make any sense, but, uh, but the reason for it

571
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,150
is, um, we give tips because we want that the service in the restaurant

572
00:31:01,250 --> 00:31:02,810
is very good, but, and we also don't.

573
00:31:09,155 --> 00:31:14,405
And the same concept could evolve with, um, public goods, you know, like, like,

574
00:31:14,405 --> 00:31:18,405
like bridges, like, like firefighting services, even like national defense.

575
00:31:18,705 --> 00:31:18,845
Yeah.

576
00:31:19,245 --> 00:31:22,155
Think of like national defense, like a, like a sports club.

577
00:31:22,485 --> 00:31:26,905
So companies would actually maybe, you know, pledge a certain amount of the

578
00:31:26,905 --> 00:31:31,325
revenues to like the national defense service of our anarchic society.

579
00:31:31,475 --> 00:31:32,685
Um, and then.

580
00:31:33,180 --> 00:31:39,480
In return, they can use, um, this, this, this, this, um, pledge as marketing.

581
00:31:39,570 --> 00:31:42,530
Like, look, um, we actually give 5 percent of our profits

582
00:31:42,540 --> 00:31:43,760
to our national defense service.

583
00:31:44,340 --> 00:31:50,180
Um, And now that's the reason why we are allowed to market as very, um, patriotic

584
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,700
or very, uh, or it's like a good company.

585
00:31:52,700 --> 00:31:56,380
And then over time, a system will evolve where we can even overcome

586
00:31:56,380 --> 00:32:02,370
this problem of, of, of, um, of the the tragedy of the commons.

587
00:32:02,710 --> 00:32:08,670
So this is let's just say the um, uh, argument for, for, for anarchy that this

588
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,800
can also work without a central authority.

589
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:17,260
So, uh, let me, Let me quickly stop there and get into, uh, questions before

590
00:32:17,260 --> 00:32:18,760
we go to the, to the Bitcoin part.

591
00:32:18,939 --> 00:32:19,179
Yeah.

592
00:32:19,179 --> 00:32:19,449
Yeah.

593
00:32:19,449 --> 00:32:25,159
So, I've been thinking a lot about how a, um, more consensual, society

594
00:32:25,164 --> 00:32:30,924
could emerge out of  the deadlock of, democracy that we're living in, currently.

595
00:32:31,014 --> 00:32:34,374
And,  I think the role of Bitcoin plays is, , first and

596
00:32:34,374 --> 00:32:36,684
foremost as unseeable property.

597
00:32:36,689 --> 00:32:40,129
So  if I point a gun to your head and say, Alex, give me all your Bitcoins.

598
00:32:40,609 --> 00:32:45,479
You can choose not to, and there is no way for me to use force and extract it

599
00:32:45,479 --> 00:32:49,119
from your head, because all bitcoins are in someone's head at the end of the day,

600
00:32:49,119 --> 00:32:51,029
because it's all about keeping a secret.

601
00:32:51,689 --> 00:32:53,209
So it's very hard to confiscate.

602
00:32:53,319 --> 00:32:58,359
From a game theoretical perspective,  if I threatened bitcoiner on the planet, I

603
00:32:58,359 --> 00:33:00,409
would get about half,  their bitcoins.

604
00:33:00,739 --> 00:33:05,884
So, so there, On average, 50 percent more costly to try to steal someone's

605
00:33:06,104 --> 00:33:11,034
bitcoins than to try to steal someone's other stuff, like more physical stuff.

606
00:33:11,324 --> 00:33:16,561
and I think this is a very underrated, Aspect of what

607
00:33:16,581 --> 00:33:19,561
Bitcoin does for people already.

608
00:33:19,621 --> 00:33:24,731
I mean, everyone is afraid of the 5 or 15 or 21 dollar wrench

609
00:33:24,731 --> 00:33:27,921
attack, depending on how much inflation you have in your country.

610
00:33:28,220 --> 00:33:33,279
But the thing that they leave out is that they are being attacked by

611
00:33:33,279 --> 00:33:37,779
a 5 wrench or a 10 wrench at the moment via inflation and via taxes.

612
00:33:38,419 --> 00:33:42,609
They are being coerced into paying for stuff that they

613
00:33:42,609 --> 00:33:44,559
didn't necessarily sign up for.

614
00:33:44,858 --> 00:33:50,498
So I think that this is, this is how Bitcoin, removes the profitability

615
00:33:50,498 --> 00:33:51,978
of violence from the equation.

616
00:33:52,028 --> 00:33:56,268
So in that sense, it's, it's more akin to intellectual

617
00:33:56,268 --> 00:33:58,308
armor than, uh, than a weapon.

618
00:33:58,751 --> 00:34:00,761
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649
00:35:26,628 --> 00:35:31,548
have you been thinking along similar lines, uh, about how, how we transition

650
00:35:31,548 --> 00:35:33,808
into a more peaceful society?

651
00:35:34,518 --> 00:35:34,778
Yeah.

652
00:35:34,848 --> 00:35:35,128
Yeah.

653
00:35:35,448 --> 00:35:37,778
Um, I love your arguments.

654
00:35:38,148 --> 00:35:42,348
Um, I, I, uh, I think, um, on the, on the same lines, um, the only

655
00:35:42,348 --> 00:35:46,158
thing I think we differ a little bit is that, um, unfortunately I

656
00:35:46,158 --> 00:35:50,128
have to say, I was actually thinking really long, really hard about this.

657
00:35:50,448 --> 00:35:54,378
Um, because eventually when you, um, you know, when you read all of this and when

658
00:35:54,378 --> 00:35:58,248
you actually think it's true and actually, you know, like leave out emotions, um,

659
00:35:58,278 --> 00:36:04,003
for, for a moment, um, I personally would love to see like a world without states.

660
00:36:04,273 --> 00:36:07,853
So I would love to basically sit here and really say, Hey, I'm like,

661
00:36:07,853 --> 00:36:10,043
I'm 100 percent anarcho capitalist.

662
00:36:10,163 --> 00:36:13,023
And I really think a society without states would be better.

663
00:36:13,113 --> 00:36:17,793
Um, the unfortunate truth is, and I'm also like mentioning this, um, a little

664
00:36:17,823 --> 00:36:21,453
bit in the book, um, but I just have to like, you know, hold my hands up

665
00:36:21,563 --> 00:36:27,913
and be like, okay, you know, um, There is not this concept, okay, nowadays

666
00:36:27,953 --> 00:36:33,813
we don't have states, nowadays we have states and tomorrow we don't, it will

667
00:36:33,813 --> 00:36:38,473
be like a long, long process because let's just say, you know, in one single

668
00:36:38,473 --> 00:36:42,263
country, it Everybody, you know, we have this hyperbitcoinization and everybody

669
00:36:42,303 --> 00:36:44,453
says, okay, um, we defund the state.

670
00:36:44,553 --> 00:36:46,803
Um, and now, um, we all live in anarchy.

671
00:36:47,063 --> 00:36:50,833
The problem is that if this was to happen, um, the system I described

672
00:36:50,833 --> 00:36:56,003
before where we maybe use charity to, um, to fund, um, like national defense,

673
00:36:56,380 --> 00:36:58,745
AGA Geiser fund for the fire brigade.

674
00:36:59,365 --> 00:37:00,825
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

675
00:37:00,875 --> 00:37:04,325
No, but this, I mean, personally, I actually think the system could

676
00:37:04,365 --> 00:37:06,505
evolve, but it takes time to evolve.

677
00:37:06,655 --> 00:37:09,405
And in between you have like this power vacuum.

678
00:37:09,655 --> 00:37:13,275
And if other countries would not like switch to this Bitcoin standard, they

679
00:37:13,275 --> 00:37:18,195
would actually take advantage of this, of this, of this power vacuum and, um, um,

680
00:37:22,385 --> 00:37:25,045
um, anarchy society.

681
00:37:25,275 --> 00:37:25,945
Um, so, yeah.

682
00:37:26,805 --> 00:37:29,885
So it's not like this direct step from, hey, we are living in a world

683
00:37:29,955 --> 00:37:33,465
we're living today to like this Bitcoin standard, uh, based on energy.

684
00:37:33,675 --> 00:37:35,155
So there must be something in between.

685
00:37:35,315 --> 00:37:38,595
And what I'm thinking, um, of this in between step, this is

686
00:37:38,815 --> 00:37:40,225
actually what you just said.

687
00:37:40,225 --> 00:37:43,175
There's this other concept, it's called Minarchy and Minarchy

688
00:37:43,225 --> 00:37:44,835
basically means minimal state.

689
00:37:46,325 --> 00:37:50,585
Before in history, this minimal state was never possible because the problem

690
00:37:50,585 --> 00:37:54,805
is as soon as you say, Hey, yes, we need a state, a state wants to grow

691
00:37:54,875 --> 00:38:00,255
because also bear in mind, states, they are also, um, an anarchy to each other.

692
00:38:00,315 --> 00:38:03,745
It's not like a single state, but states try to get the better of each

693
00:38:03,775 --> 00:38:08,075
other, um, and, and have like hunger for life, like more and more power, right?

694
00:38:08,525 --> 00:38:08,765
Yeah.

695
00:38:08,765 --> 00:38:08,975
Yeah.

696
00:38:08,975 --> 00:38:13,675
That's, this is a Misessian argument, from the beginning, like, that, a minimal state

697
00:38:13,765 --> 00:38:19,195
is as utopian, as no state at all, that it's, it's simply not possible because of

698
00:38:19,195 --> 00:38:21,385
the cancerous nature of, of their growth.

699
00:38:22,135 --> 00:38:22,795
Yeah, correct.

700
00:38:23,045 --> 00:38:26,028
But I actually think and here it comes which I think is

701
00:38:26,138 --> 00:38:27,328
like my personal solution.

702
00:38:27,328 --> 00:38:29,658
Maybe you find an argument that my personal solution

703
00:38:29,888 --> 00:38:30,968
doesn't make any sense at all.

704
00:38:30,968 --> 00:38:31,208
Yeah.

705
00:38:31,518 --> 00:38:35,715
But my personal solution of thinking about this is with Bitcoin.

706
00:38:35,795 --> 00:38:39,665
Actually, I think it's the first time in history that we have this

707
00:38:39,665 --> 00:38:40,995
possibility of a minimal state.

708
00:38:41,335 --> 00:38:41,735
Why?

709
00:38:41,995 --> 00:38:44,055
Because,  they cannot coerce the money supply.

710
00:38:44,175 --> 00:38:47,565
So they have to work within a certain limit, which is basically

711
00:38:47,605 --> 00:38:48,895
the limit of Bitcoin, right?

712
00:38:49,185 --> 00:38:53,518
So, maybe there is a possibility to, like, take the cancer out of the state.

713
00:38:53,838 --> 00:38:57,038
So it's nature that they want to grow, grow, grow, and they really have to focus.

714
00:38:57,673 --> 00:39:00,903
on their, let's just say, main reason for existence.

715
00:39:01,043 --> 00:39:04,673
And as we discussed earlier, their main reason for existence is the

716
00:39:04,673 --> 00:39:08,783
resolution of conflicts, which basically means security and lawmaking.

717
00:39:08,873 --> 00:39:13,203
And the world I'm personally envisioning is that in a first step,

718
00:39:13,503 --> 00:39:15,773
we actually are able to scale back.

719
00:39:15,913 --> 00:39:20,143
the state back back to their original, meaning of conflict resolution.

720
00:39:20,503 --> 00:39:22,913
And they are not like, you know, meddling in all of this, whatever,

721
00:39:22,923 --> 00:39:28,890
transportation, healthcare, medicine, schools, education, and so many things,

722
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,630
you know, and I think as a first step, we cannot basically eradicate them, but

723
00:39:32,700 --> 00:39:37,030
we have to really make sure that they only are able to,  focused on this.

724
00:39:38,845 --> 00:39:42,632
And if they are like that small, then I actually think we can

725
00:39:42,632 --> 00:39:46,302
take another step and hopefully like eradicate them whatsoever.

726
00:39:46,952 --> 00:39:50,552
But I don't think it's possible without this in between step, because if you don't

727
00:39:50,552 --> 00:39:54,602
have it, there's like this power vacuum, which other states would, you know, fill.

728
00:39:55,196 --> 00:39:55,526
yeah.

729
00:39:55,798 --> 00:39:56,708
That's interesting.

730
00:39:56,738 --> 00:40:00,698
I think we are living in that step right now.

731
00:40:00,731 --> 00:40:06,504
that thing is playing out, like El Salvador being the obvious first mover

732
00:40:06,514 --> 00:40:09,519
here, but states are already stepping up.

733
00:40:09,609 --> 00:40:15,003
competing for brainpower, like, there is a brain drain from more oppressive places

734
00:40:15,203 --> 00:40:20,753
to, uh, more, lucrative places for, for big coiners in particular, but for big

735
00:40:20,763 --> 00:40:24,783
brain people in general, and people are moving to where they're treated better.

736
00:40:25,116 --> 00:40:31,286
So people vote with their feet, as, as we say, and I don't think you call

737
00:40:31,286 --> 00:40:37,176
this, an individual solution, which I think is that's the, uh, the poodle's

738
00:40:37,296 --> 00:40:44,116
kernel or , whatever the expression is, that we, we each need to find our own

739
00:40:44,116 --> 00:40:46,216
individual solution to this problem.

740
00:40:46,221 --> 00:40:52,866
How we can remove as much noise from the, equation of our lives, as possible.

741
00:40:53,486 --> 00:40:55,796
And, uh, you can do this in many ways.

742
00:40:55,856 --> 00:40:59,396
You can first, you can, you can throw your TV out your window.

743
00:40:59,796 --> 00:41:04,026
Uh, which is a rock and roll move to do  and stop watching the news.

744
00:41:04,496 --> 00:41:07,919
You can stop consuming mainstream media totally.

745
00:41:08,319 --> 00:41:12,339
And you can also, opt out of all sorts of other things.

746
00:41:12,486 --> 00:41:15,776
and the, the ultimate opt out move, which you can do to any

747
00:41:15,776 --> 00:41:19,769
extent you want is to convert your, your fiat currency into Bitcoin.

748
00:41:20,279 --> 00:41:24,109
Uh, and the more you do that, the more you separate yourself from.

749
00:41:24,564 --> 00:41:28,888
The noise of, uh, governments, uh, fighting one another, the more you

750
00:41:28,888 --> 00:41:35,238
actually live in and on Bitcoin and you interact with other Bitcoiners, and use

751
00:41:35,478 --> 00:41:41,531
Bitcoin, not only using it in the sense of moving Satoshis, on the time chain,

752
00:41:41,541 --> 00:41:46,501
but also in what we're doing now, having conversations with other Bitcoiners and

753
00:41:46,501 --> 00:41:48,271
trading information with one another.

754
00:41:48,688 --> 00:41:51,478
Literally limitless potential there.

755
00:41:51,478 --> 00:41:54,508
And, and so much to do and so much to find out.

756
00:41:54,508 --> 00:42:00,134
And I think we're seeing this, move from collectivism to individualism

757
00:42:00,134 --> 00:42:04,394
playing out, uh, in real time as, we transition into the future.

758
00:42:04,638 --> 00:42:05,268
and I.

759
00:42:05,793 --> 00:42:08,633
somewhat agree with how you describe it.

760
00:42:08,663 --> 00:42:14,883
I just view these as maybe not steps, but a more gradual change,

761
00:42:14,953 --> 00:42:19,849
and it's very individual, and it differs a lot from person to person.

762
00:42:19,919 --> 00:42:23,656
I mean, there are people who live on nothing but Bitcoin at the moment.

763
00:42:23,856 --> 00:42:28,326
Uh, which I suspect is the category all three of us fall into that

764
00:42:28,326 --> 00:42:32,706
we're somewhere in between our fiat lives and our, our Bitcoin lives.

765
00:42:32,796 --> 00:42:36,426
And we're, we're trying to allocate more and more time and effort into the

766
00:42:36,676 --> 00:42:42,626
Bitcoin side of things, but we're still somewhat tied to, uh, paying taxes.

767
00:42:42,706 --> 00:42:44,173
And, I mean, we.

768
00:42:44,588 --> 00:42:48,038
Whenever we buy something at the supermarket, we're paying taxes,

769
00:42:48,148 --> 00:42:52,278
like whenever we use fiat currencies, we're stealing from our children.

770
00:42:52,318 --> 00:42:55,198
So we try to do that as little as possible.

771
00:42:55,538 --> 00:42:59,688
But we're still somewhat stuck in the in the legacy system.

772
00:42:59,728 --> 00:43:04,553
And we need to have one step in that in order for us to be able to build

773
00:43:04,553 --> 00:43:06,663
this new reality in parallel to that.

774
00:43:06,683 --> 00:43:10,616
And I think it's very much akin to what happened in, like, say, Czechoslovakia

775
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,456
after the Berlin Wall fell and, and, uh, there was this big underground

776
00:43:14,466 --> 00:43:19,843
movement that started doing things, consensually amongst themselves without

777
00:43:20,073 --> 00:43:21,703
even involving the state at all.

778
00:43:21,926 --> 00:43:26,414
So, so I think we, we we're seeing a kind of grassroots revolution,

779
00:43:26,594 --> 00:43:30,248
of individualists,  happening all over the world at the same time.

780
00:43:30,324 --> 00:43:34,488
that's how, how I'd describe it, the first stages of hyper colonization.

781
00:43:35,089 --> 00:43:36,249
It's all hopefully already there.

782
00:43:36,249 --> 00:43:36,499
Yeah.

783
00:43:36,713 --> 00:43:39,463
I have like one or two, things to, to add to that.

784
00:43:39,513 --> 00:43:43,533
Um, because you know, like when you get into all of this, you want things to

785
00:43:43,533 --> 00:43:45,223
change, you know, as fast as possible.

786
00:43:45,223 --> 00:43:45,423
Yeah.

787
00:43:45,423 --> 00:43:47,643
Like tomorrow I'm going to live in this like Bitcoin world.

788
00:43:47,696 --> 00:43:51,616
but, uh, but the honest, the truth is that most of society, uh, is still, as you

789
00:43:51,756 --> 00:43:55,713
said, like living completely in fiat world and they're like not ready, you know?

790
00:43:55,753 --> 00:43:59,316
And if you, force this change too quickly, I'm actually afraid just

791
00:43:59,366 --> 00:44:00,896
things will break down a little bit.

792
00:44:01,276 --> 00:44:01,546
Yeah.

793
00:44:01,855 --> 00:44:08,235
What I'm currently thinking, I don't have a final opinion about it yet, but what

794
00:44:08,235 --> 00:44:13,808
I'm currently contemplating a little bit is this notion of empires falling, right?

795
00:44:13,928 --> 00:44:20,178
So you have the US, which is supposedly in their last stages of global domination.

796
00:44:20,568 --> 00:44:23,188
Before that, you had Great Britain, before that you had the

797
00:44:23,188 --> 00:44:24,318
Dutch, before that you had the...

798
00:44:24,358 --> 00:44:25,538
Romance and so on and so on.

799
00:44:25,838 --> 00:44:28,648
Then you have like these empires who like fall, right?

800
00:44:28,788 --> 00:44:34,011
but the eventual end of those empires always came, at a time when they

801
00:44:34,021 --> 00:44:35,851
lost,  their control  over money.

802
00:44:35,941 --> 00:44:36,121
Yeah.

803
00:44:36,121 --> 00:44:37,881
You had like, um, hyperinflation.

804
00:44:37,988 --> 00:44:42,395
you had the, the value of the currency spiraling out of control and, the central

805
00:44:42,395 --> 00:44:46,415
banks or like the financial system at the time or the state was not able.

806
00:44:46,985 --> 00:44:50,738
to, create a stable situation again, the society functions.

807
00:44:51,135 --> 00:44:55,411
what I'm trying  to find out currently is that, whether actually Bitcoin helps

808
00:44:55,781 --> 00:45:00,711
the fiat system to, let's just say, stay in the game for longer, right?

809
00:45:00,931 --> 00:45:03,541
Because, this has happened in the past over and over and

810
00:45:03,551 --> 00:45:04,871
over and over and over again.

811
00:45:05,095 --> 00:45:07,705
the system's basically collapsed, but the difference.

812
00:45:08,015 --> 00:45:13,911
we have right now is that there is a solution outside of this mainstream

813
00:45:14,151 --> 00:45:19,058
system, and this solution, which is Bitcoin, actually could, I don't know,

814
00:45:19,198 --> 00:45:24,048
um, but could force, you know, more, uh, of sort of like, uh, economic

815
00:45:24,048 --> 00:45:27,875
responsible behavior, onto the state or like onto the U S or onto,

816
00:45:27,875 --> 00:45:29,245
let's just say we as like the West.

817
00:45:29,725 --> 00:45:31,715
Um, because before they could just do whatever they want.

818
00:45:32,055 --> 00:45:38,215
Uh, but now they have like this threat of, um, a system outside  of their power.

819
00:45:38,495 --> 00:45:40,625
So what I'm thinking a little bit, and I'm not sure about it, and I

820
00:45:40,625 --> 00:45:46,055
would love to have your opinion is actually whether or not Bitcoin forces

821
00:45:46,295 --> 00:45:52,245
economic responsibility onto the states and therefore they actually live

822
00:45:52,375 --> 00:45:54,805
longer than they would naturally do.

823
00:45:55,538 --> 00:45:57,008
Now, that's a very good question.

824
00:45:57,228 --> 00:45:57,858
I think we.

825
00:45:58,396 --> 00:46:03,076
We're talking about two sides of the same coin here, uh, because, Bitcoin

826
00:46:03,436 --> 00:46:08,216
can't really force anyone to do anything since it's completely opt in.

827
00:46:08,836 --> 00:46:12,226
So it's, it's more disrupting than forcing.

828
00:46:12,406 --> 00:46:17,126
And it's true, as you say, like, totalitarianism, the hope people

829
00:46:17,136 --> 00:46:21,526
had before Bitcoin is that totalitarianism simply doesn't work.

830
00:46:21,536 --> 00:46:25,463
It breaks down at some point, because you centrally plan a society, it

831
00:46:25,463 --> 00:46:27,443
doesn't work, and they break down.

832
00:46:27,453 --> 00:46:30,493
Like, this was true for the Roman Empire, and this was true for the

833
00:46:30,493 --> 00:46:31,983
Soviet Union, and the same thing.

834
00:46:32,768 --> 00:46:34,678
They faded out in different ways.

835
00:46:34,738 --> 00:46:39,248
I mean, the Roman Empire took hundreds of years to disappear because people

836
00:46:39,508 --> 00:46:44,571
simply didn't know that if it existed or not, while as the Soviet Union

837
00:46:44,571 --> 00:46:49,931
sort of fell in weeks, and it was just gone after the Berlin Wall fell.

838
00:46:50,921 --> 00:46:53,548
I heard some Russian, person.

839
00:46:53,623 --> 00:46:57,516
tell me the story about how they, uh, the way he described it was that they,

840
00:46:57,576 --> 00:47:03,546
he, they all fell asleep as communists one day and they woke up and no one was

841
00:47:03,546 --> 00:47:05,616
a communist anymore, which is weird.

842
00:47:06,039 --> 00:47:09,749
the way I see it, the West is sort of the new East at this point.

843
00:47:09,816 --> 00:47:13,309
And what happened in Germany, for instance, when, East Germany and

844
00:47:13,309 --> 00:47:17,069
West Germany were united again, which we're always told the story that

845
00:47:17,099 --> 00:47:20,529
now East Germany is free and they can have all this wonderful fun.

846
00:47:20,575 --> 00:47:21,575
free market stuff.

847
00:47:21,705 --> 00:47:26,285
but the ideas from East Germany sort of lived on and, and smittened

848
00:47:26,315 --> 00:47:29,435
some of the West Germans, like, because the East Germans said that,

849
00:47:29,435 --> 00:47:31,255
Oh, you have to pay for childcare.

850
00:47:31,255 --> 00:47:32,075
Why is that?

851
00:47:32,075 --> 00:47:36,024
Uh, it was free in East Germany and though the West Germans go, Oh.

852
00:47:36,605 --> 00:47:38,195
Why do we have to pay for this again?

853
00:47:38,345 --> 00:47:39,415
I don't remember.

854
00:47:39,415 --> 00:47:42,185
We should vote for people that want to make it free.

855
00:47:42,615 --> 00:47:45,165
And the same with healthcare and everything else.

856
00:47:45,215 --> 00:47:51,288
So, I mean, bad ideas can spread and propagate just as much as good ideas can.

857
00:47:52,375 --> 00:47:54,315
if their marketing is good.

858
00:47:54,355 --> 00:47:58,445
So we're sort of falling into the same trap here and the EU is slowly...

859
00:47:59,470 --> 00:48:03,790
I always imagine the EU flag with a red ba background instead of a blue

860
00:48:03,790 --> 00:48:07,900
background, because it's, that's basically what it's turned into at this point.

861
00:48:08,350 --> 00:48:13,636
But then again, I think, a fast transition to hyper ization is, in my opinion, uh,

862
00:48:13,713 --> 00:48:15,963
preferable to slow transition because.

863
00:48:16,263 --> 00:48:21,623
All it does is remove violence from the equation, so the quicker that process

864
00:48:21,623 --> 00:48:28,843
goes, the better, and I think when people are finally orange pilled so that they

865
00:48:28,853 --> 00:48:36,083
actually get Bitcoin, then all the other illusions crumble, so you can't really

866
00:48:36,083 --> 00:48:43,473
understand Bitcoin properly without also understanding that any type of state Or

867
00:48:43,473 --> 00:48:46,293
any type of coercion is morally wrong.

868
00:48:46,319 --> 00:48:50,513
if you don't grasp that concept, you, you're not really a Bitcoin yet, are you?

869
00:48:51,338 --> 00:48:56,873
? So, so, so I think that that, uh, in that sense, well, we can't

870
00:48:56,963 --> 00:48:58,673
force people to become bitcoiners.

871
00:48:58,673 --> 00:49:04,136
We can't force people to become consensual and non-aggression principled people.

872
00:49:04,336 --> 00:49:07,036
it has to happen organically because otherwise we're.

873
00:49:07,471 --> 00:49:09,901
Violating the non aggression principle ourselves.

874
00:49:10,201 --> 00:49:15,071
so all we have is words and communication and that's all Bitcoin is.

875
00:49:15,231 --> 00:49:20,761
So this is the non violent revolution and in my mind, I'd like to see it play

876
00:49:20,761 --> 00:49:25,931
out as fast as possible and I think it's just a matter of people accepting

877
00:49:25,941 --> 00:49:27,611
Bitcoin for their goods and services.

878
00:49:28,241 --> 00:49:31,911
I don't see anything breaking down because,  the guy at the local

879
00:49:31,911 --> 00:49:33,971
supermarket starts accepting Bitcoin.

880
00:49:34,721 --> 00:49:38,925
Rather the opposite, he would make more profits, he would expand, he

881
00:49:38,925 --> 00:49:40,725
would get more influential, and...

882
00:49:41,168 --> 00:49:44,308
People around him would flourish or thrive.

883
00:49:45,075 --> 00:49:49,811
that's how I see this playing out, and of course, like, state actors want

884
00:49:49,821 --> 00:49:54,611
to make life miserable for people for periods of time, but we should remember

885
00:49:54,611 --> 00:49:56,801
that They're already doing that.

886
00:49:56,981 --> 00:50:02,098
And, and this is just a, means of protests that we haven't had before.

887
00:50:02,175 --> 00:50:06,538
we can, uh, vote with our feet and vote with our words

888
00:50:07,348 --> 00:50:08,758
because what Bitcoin is words?

889
00:50:08,788 --> 00:50:10,198
It's, it's just once and zero.

890
00:50:10,198 --> 00:50:11,818
It's, it's just mathematics.

891
00:50:11,818 --> 00:50:17,113
It's just we can, All be a one man revolution, and we're all a one man

892
00:50:17,113 --> 00:50:20,240
army, fighting the galactic empire.

893
00:50:20,730 --> 00:50:26,970
And Bitcoin is the photon torpedo fired at the Death Star's thermal exhaust port.

894
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:33,030
And we're using the orange glowing force to guide the missiles into the right hole.

895
00:50:33,286 --> 00:50:37,746
the rabbit hole of the, of the empire, or, or the, some other hole.

896
00:50:38,070 --> 00:50:42,090
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929
00:52:15,090 --> 00:52:15,550
0.

930
00:52:15,900 --> 00:52:19,450
So every Zapp sent to a Geyser address shows up on the Geyser page.

931
00:52:20,210 --> 00:52:21,670
We have a Geyser fund ourselves.

932
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:23,840
It's the best way to support our show directly with Bitcoin.

933
00:52:24,850 --> 00:52:28,710
So whether you're a creator or a supporter, check out geyser at geyser.

934
00:52:28,710 --> 00:52:29,610
fund today.

935
00:52:29,808 --> 00:52:30,608
No, that's beautiful.

936
00:52:30,648 --> 00:52:31,318
That's beautiful.

937
00:52:31,318 --> 00:52:31,868
That's beautiful.

938
00:52:31,868 --> 00:52:32,458
What a picture.

939
00:52:35,318 --> 00:52:35,858
Hi.

940
00:52:36,008 --> 00:52:39,778
Um, actually I just wanted to, um, you know, expand or like comment on,

941
00:52:39,808 --> 00:52:40,918
on, on one of those things you said.

942
00:52:41,308 --> 00:52:42,028
Um, yeah.

943
00:52:42,458 --> 00:52:49,158
Because, you know, deep in my heart, I really hope that, um, I really hope

944
00:52:49,928 --> 00:52:53,568
that most people recognize this and also recognize this on their own, um,

945
00:52:53,618 --> 00:52:56,538
through, through the market, you know, that maybe like, you know, one day they,

946
00:52:56,568 --> 00:53:00,718
they wake up and their money is like worth half it was, it was, it was used

947
00:53:00,718 --> 00:53:05,968
to be worth, or, um, you know, uh, like this concept of like this central bank

948
00:53:05,978 --> 00:53:11,168
digital ledger and so on, you know, this becomes so bad, um, that, um, people just.

949
00:53:11,643 --> 00:53:14,573
like look for another solution on the market.

950
00:53:14,773 --> 00:53:15,073
Yeah.

951
00:53:15,073 --> 00:53:17,733
And people actually get educated by the market.

952
00:53:17,783 --> 00:53:21,423
And this is how we can make this, um, transition, um, peacefully.

953
00:53:21,553 --> 00:53:28,053
Um, but where I'm a little bit still, um, this is why I also actually argue

954
00:53:28,063 --> 00:53:31,753
in the, in the book for it, like this, um, concept of, of, of like this,

955
00:53:31,754 --> 00:53:37,943
this minimal state, um, as a, I call it step, you call it gradual process.

956
00:53:38,353 --> 00:53:46,403
Um, really believe that, um, When the system swings, yeah, people

957
00:53:46,403 --> 00:53:49,843
who have the means, people who have the wits, people who have the

958
00:53:49,843 --> 00:53:51,693
possibility, obviously they will move.

959
00:53:52,173 --> 00:53:54,903
Like if, so I'm, I'm based in like Munich, Germany.

960
00:53:55,013 --> 00:54:00,083
Um, if, if things get too socialist and too crazy here, I'm the first person

961
00:54:00,163 --> 00:54:01,483
who believe yeah, no question asked.

962
00:54:01,683 --> 00:54:03,873
I will take my Bitcoin with me and we'll take my family with

963
00:54:03,873 --> 00:54:05,173
me and more or less we are gone.

964
00:54:05,173 --> 00:54:05,353
Yeah.

965
00:54:05,743 --> 00:54:08,693
But the problem is just that not everybody has this possibility.

966
00:54:08,803 --> 00:54:10,083
Um, and.

967
00:54:10,084 --> 00:54:10,288
Thanks.

968
00:54:10,508 --> 00:54:12,228
What do these people do?

969
00:54:12,298 --> 00:54:16,128
I mean, they have to stay and then they have to endure the state, basically, and

970
00:54:16,138 --> 00:54:19,648
the state will only get worse and worse and worse because if you defund the state,

971
00:54:19,948 --> 00:54:25,278
if economic productivity leaves a country, the state basically has to finance itself

972
00:54:25,578 --> 00:54:29,638
with less and less taxes because all of the economic actors have left, right?

973
00:54:29,639 --> 00:54:30,528
So what do they do?

974
00:54:30,568 --> 00:54:33,328
They actually squeeze the people who are still there even more.

975
00:54:33,858 --> 00:54:37,698
Um, and this like,

976
00:54:37,723 --> 00:54:38,733
not affected, though.

977
00:54:39,828 --> 00:54:41,188
true, Bitcoin is not affected.

978
00:54:41,188 --> 00:54:41,898
Yeah, yeah.

979
00:54:41,899 --> 00:54:41,988
Yeah.

980
00:54:42,278 --> 00:54:45,638
Man, like this is, this is why I love to add to other Bitcoiners

981
00:54:45,678 --> 00:54:49,738
because you are, you are open to let's just say the radical solution.

982
00:54:49,848 --> 00:54:54,278
And um, uh, you know, people who know me like really, really

983
00:54:54,378 --> 00:54:56,248
well, they will all call me Alex.

984
00:54:56,318 --> 00:54:59,738
You are like enemy of the people because you're always suggesting

985
00:54:59,748 --> 00:55:01,878
these radical solutions to problems.

986
00:55:02,298 --> 00:55:07,503
But I'm just like, No, the, the, the honest truth is this would be just nature.

987
00:55:07,533 --> 00:55:11,883
You know, like if the people, um, if the people who, um, have the means

988
00:55:11,883 --> 00:55:15,453
to, to, to to be gone, are gone, this basically means the most capable,

989
00:55:15,753 --> 00:55:17,163
uh, the most capable, uh, people.

990
00:55:17,168 --> 00:55:18,873
They will basically leave and the people who are not

991
00:55:18,878 --> 00:55:20,523
capable, they should stay there.

992
00:55:20,528 --> 00:55:23,853
And we, as humanity, we upgrade and the, to like the next system.

993
00:55:23,853 --> 00:55:26,793
And over time, in 200 years, the people who stayed.

994
00:55:27,213 --> 00:55:29,363
within the state before it finally died.

995
00:55:29,863 --> 00:55:33,103
Um, it's just like a, it's just like a note in history, but it's not

996
00:55:33,103 --> 00:55:34,413
like a big thing anymore, you know?

997
00:55:34,723 --> 00:55:38,573
Um, and I'm in a, when I'm with like, like circle of my friends, I'm always

998
00:55:38,623 --> 00:55:41,363
like discussing this and it's always like, no, no, no, this is too radical.

999
00:55:41,363 --> 00:55:42,233
This is too whatever.

1000
00:55:42,503 --> 00:55:44,733
But personally, I'm actually also thinking like this.

1001
00:55:45,133 --> 00:55:49,813
Um, and for instance, let me, let me give you like one example.

1002
00:55:49,883 --> 00:55:56,848
Um, Because, like, coming back to this nature concept, um, I was actually also

1003
00:55:56,848 --> 00:56:03,258
reading some books about, um, about, like, let's just say different animal kingdoms.

1004
00:56:03,328 --> 00:56:03,618
Yeah.

1005
00:56:03,648 --> 00:56:07,248
Like, how does nature solve problems we have as humans?

1006
00:56:07,438 --> 00:56:10,938
For instance, in the West, we have a society which is very old.

1007
00:56:11,038 --> 00:56:11,118
Yeah.

1008
00:56:11,118 --> 00:56:11,858
You have a lot of Yeah.

1009
00:56:12,888 --> 00:56:16,758
All people and young people need to pay taxes to actually

1010
00:56:17,088 --> 00:56:17,928
support the healthcare system.

1011
00:56:18,088 --> 00:56:20,078
At least this is a problem we have in Germany.

1012
00:56:20,358 --> 00:56:21,058
So I got interested.

1013
00:56:21,328 --> 00:56:21,728
Okay.

1014
00:56:21,978 --> 00:56:24,838
What does nature do to, to, to like solve this problem?

1015
00:56:24,888 --> 00:56:28,578
And here comes something which at first, um, was a little bit

1016
00:56:28,588 --> 00:56:33,208
radical, but I had to smile because, um, it's, um, about termites.

1017
00:56:33,348 --> 00:56:34,818
termites against ants.

1018
00:56:35,338 --> 00:56:38,218
Um, because termites and ants, they are fighting for the

1019
00:56:38,228 --> 00:56:39,608
same territory in forests.

1020
00:56:39,848 --> 00:56:40,248
Okay.

1021
00:56:40,478 --> 00:56:43,738
And the termites like ants, they're like a, like a hive.

1022
00:56:43,968 --> 00:56:46,078
They have different jobs to be done.

1023
00:56:46,248 --> 00:56:50,248
Um, and when they get older, um, they are not maybe able to carry.

1024
00:56:50,373 --> 00:56:54,483
Um, something anymore because they are too weak and they don't have, let's just say,

1025
00:56:54,483 --> 00:56:56,403
an active function in the society anymore.

1026
00:56:56,733 --> 00:57:02,473
So, um, in these wars with the ants, um, they develop, when they get

1027
00:57:02,473 --> 00:57:07,153
to a certain age, they develop a sort of liquid in their body, which

1028
00:57:07,233 --> 00:57:09,363
turns them more or less into bombs.

1029
00:57:09,663 --> 00:57:11,523
So they basically can explode themselves.

1030
00:57:12,003 --> 00:57:16,003
So the crazy part is when they have these wars, like these older termites.

1031
00:57:16,223 --> 00:57:18,483
They are like the first line of the war.

1032
00:57:18,733 --> 00:57:21,383
They go to the, to the ends and then they just like explode.

1033
00:57:21,413 --> 00:57:24,693
And then society basically is rejuvenated again because they

1034
00:57:24,693 --> 00:57:27,443
basically win the war because of this and they get like new territory.

1035
00:57:27,793 --> 00:57:31,343
So what I'm basically want to say is nature is fucking true.

1036
00:57:31,968 --> 00:57:34,253
So it's, it's not, it's, it's,

1037
00:57:34,353 --> 00:57:38,923
unfortunately, it reminds me of some of the latter human conflicts we've had.

1038
00:57:40,103 --> 00:57:40,613
yeah.

1039
00:57:41,403 --> 00:57:41,703
Yeah.

1040
00:57:41,733 --> 00:57:42,573
Correct, correct.

1041
00:57:42,573 --> 00:57:45,693
And for me, this is just always like, you know, when I'm, when, when, when

1042
00:57:45,693 --> 00:57:48,873
I'm listening to arguments of, uh, of friends and so on, and I'm like, Hey,

1043
00:57:48,873 --> 00:57:53,563
you know, this is, I'm, I'm pro-human, you know, I'm not like against human.

1044
00:57:53,563 --> 00:57:55,708
But, uh, but, uh, but, uh, but, uh, but, uh, uh.

1045
00:57:57,443 --> 00:58:00,033
the really the core of everything is nature because we are living

1046
00:58:00,043 --> 00:58:01,883
in a world ruled by nature.

1047
00:58:02,103 --> 00:58:02,273
Yeah.

1048
00:58:02,393 --> 00:58:06,753
And, um, to neglect that, um, and to say, Hey, everybody can

1049
00:58:06,753 --> 00:58:08,103
have the most beautiful life.

1050
00:58:08,163 --> 00:58:09,213
It's just not possible.

1051
00:58:09,593 --> 00:58:13,663
Um, and personally, you know, taking this journey from the

1052
00:58:13,663 --> 00:58:15,003
system we are living right now.

1053
00:58:15,323 --> 00:58:17,973
Um, to this journey, uh, to this, to this, to this, to this

1054
00:58:18,233 --> 00:58:19,443
beautiful vision of Bitcoin.

1055
00:58:19,823 --> 00:58:24,153
I just hope for like a transition, which is not like, you know, too violent, which

1056
00:58:24,153 --> 00:58:30,733
is not like too, um, it doesn't get too crazy, but I definitely know it could be.

1057
00:58:30,883 --> 00:58:36,468
So personally, I'm like, Yes, I want this hyperbitcoinization, but we have to find

1058
00:58:36,468 --> 00:58:41,738
a way where not like, um, you have like the minimal amount of human suffering.

1059
00:58:41,758 --> 00:58:44,908
Because I think if you go the crazy route, if you would go Bitcoin from

1060
00:58:44,908 --> 00:58:49,148
tomorrow, all of the bitcoiners would leave, they would all meet in like 1,

1061
00:58:49,398 --> 00:58:53,578
countries and the rest of the world would just basically, um, either go on

1062
00:58:53,578 --> 00:58:58,028
because they get like a new narrative down their throat and states would survive.

1063
00:58:58,168 --> 00:58:58,458
Yeah.

1064
00:58:59,953 --> 00:59:02,483
Or, um, they would just like be at like war with each other,

1065
00:59:02,483 --> 00:59:03,683
like a civil war everywhere.

1066
00:59:03,973 --> 00:59:08,723
And, um, uh, you know, half of humanity would basically, whatever, die.

1067
00:59:10,283 --> 00:59:11,973
And I don't know whether this is something we want.

1068
00:59:12,773 --> 00:59:15,830
Okay, so, so here's, just to play the devil's advocate here for a

1069
00:59:15,830 --> 00:59:19,810
while, here's a Mississian counter argument to the nature thing.

1070
00:59:20,113 --> 00:59:25,635
Mises, categorizes competition into biological competition, which is the thing

1071
00:59:25,635 --> 00:59:30,652
you would describe with the ants, or just basically might is right and fang and

1072
00:59:30,652 --> 00:59:32,998
claw, whoever has the biggest bomb wins.

1073
00:59:33,332 --> 00:59:37,292
But humans have another way of resolving conflict and that's catalytic

1074
00:59:37,302 --> 00:59:41,412
competition, which is basically free market competition in which everyone

1075
00:59:41,412 --> 00:59:44,088
wins because trade does not happen.

1076
00:59:44,963 --> 00:59:49,630
If both parties don't believe that they have some something to gain from the

1077
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:52,200
transaction, that's what consensualism is.

1078
00:59:52,860 --> 00:59:54,140
And this is what Bitcoin does.

1079
00:59:54,210 --> 01:00:01,230
It enables us to communicate in a way to allow for catalytic competition

1080
01:00:01,230 --> 01:00:03,560
rather than biological competition.

1081
01:00:04,060 --> 01:00:07,680
And how powerful catalytic competition is.

1082
01:00:07,970 --> 01:00:13,060
Uh, as an alternative to just violence is so underrated and it's,

1083
01:00:13,060 --> 01:00:15,880
it's the reason we have anything.

1084
01:00:16,390 --> 01:00:20,840
It's the reason we have houses, roads, fire, brigades, a anything

1085
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:23,797
hoses, it all comes from.

1086
01:00:23,942 --> 01:00:28,132
Lowering your time preference to build something and then trading that

1087
01:00:28,172 --> 01:00:31,732
something with someone else, trading a good and service with other people.

1088
01:00:31,902 --> 01:00:33,952
So, so I think that's, all Bitcoin does.

1089
01:00:34,012 --> 01:00:38,572
It removes the noise of, of biological competition and allows

1090
01:00:38,662 --> 01:00:40,992
for completely catalytic society.

1091
01:00:41,282 --> 01:00:45,052
And I said before that you can vote with your feet and go to some place else.

1092
01:00:45,142 --> 01:00:48,822
And you alluded to that the place you're leaving might become a shithole

1093
01:00:48,822 --> 01:00:51,432
if all the brains move away from it.

1094
01:00:51,987 --> 01:00:52,687
Which is true.

1095
01:00:52,687 --> 01:00:55,117
So we need foot soldiers on the ground as well.

1096
01:00:55,117 --> 01:00:58,487
We wouldn't want, you know, Europe to be a wasteland and

1097
01:00:58,487 --> 01:01:00,117
everyone's moving to El Salvador.

1098
01:01:00,383 --> 01:01:02,123
that's not the solution for Europe.

1099
01:01:02,310 --> 01:01:03,350
but that's not, going to happen.

1100
01:01:03,590 --> 01:01:09,370
Like the way I see that is that The competition between states comes from the

1101
01:01:09,370 --> 01:01:11,830
brain drain and from people moving out.

1102
01:01:12,090 --> 01:01:16,260
That's what's forcing countries to adopt more laissez faire

1103
01:01:16,260 --> 01:01:21,240
rules and more favorable rules to bitcoiners in the long run.

1104
01:01:21,410 --> 01:01:24,880
Of course, we're in the early stages of this, and it's hard to predict

1105
01:01:24,890 --> 01:01:28,210
the future, so we'll all have to wait and see how it actually plays out.

1106
01:01:28,830 --> 01:01:32,660
But the thing I know is that when I'm in a place where there

1107
01:01:32,660 --> 01:01:36,110
are a lot of other Bitcoiners around, all the problems go away.

1108
01:01:36,347 --> 01:01:42,377
even if we need to use fiat for this or that, there's always a Bitcoiner who has

1109
01:01:42,377 --> 01:01:44,607
some fiat and we can sort it out anyway.

1110
01:01:44,713 --> 01:01:45,163
it's just...

1111
01:01:45,513 --> 01:01:51,323
Tends to work whenever you're around other Bitcoiners, and that's one of the

1112
01:01:51,463 --> 01:01:55,537
more beautiful aspects of it, I think, but it's a good debate to have, like,

1113
01:01:55,557 --> 01:01:58,937
do we prefer a fast or a slow price?

1114
01:01:59,347 --> 01:02:01,547
Transition into hyperbitcoinization.

1115
01:02:01,747 --> 01:02:03,987
Like and subscribe and comment below.

1116
01:02:04,117 --> 01:02:05,017
What do you think?

1117
01:02:07,327 --> 01:02:08,217
And brush your teeth.

1118
01:02:08,580 --> 01:02:12,620
Luke, do you have any final questions for Alex before we we wrap this thing up?

1119
01:02:13,227 --> 01:02:17,387
Well, to be honest, I've really enjoyed the overview of what

1120
01:02:17,387 --> 01:02:18,377
you're getting out of your book.

1121
01:02:18,377 --> 01:02:21,817
I think we're kind of like minded here in a lot of ways.

1122
01:02:21,937 --> 01:02:27,324
And, well, any other final points that you're trying to make that you think

1123
01:02:27,324 --> 01:02:32,044
might be a little bit different from what you've seen in other books or information

1124
01:02:32,044 --> 01:02:33,914
about Bitcoin and the anarchy space?

1125
01:02:34,644 --> 01:02:34,954
Yeah.

1126
01:02:35,277 --> 01:02:39,347
I just wanted to, bring up this notion of, let's just say, again, I

1127
01:02:39,347 --> 01:02:43,787
know that we talked about the steps versus, versus, um, uh, gradual change.

1128
01:02:44,297 --> 01:02:49,492
Um, Because, you know, as we said in most of the literature, um, uh, we

1129
01:02:49,492 --> 01:02:53,742
have this, uh, argument that like this minimal state, uh, is not possible

1130
01:02:53,742 --> 01:02:55,592
because the states were like cancer.

1131
01:02:55,852 --> 01:02:58,692
And I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, I think this is true.

1132
01:02:58,982 --> 01:03:02,702
However, I actually think that through Bitcoin, um, this concept of a minimal

1133
01:03:02,712 --> 01:03:04,672
state is possible for the first time.

1134
01:03:05,042 --> 01:03:08,882
And before we can get to like this complete hyperbitcoinization, um,

1135
01:03:08,942 --> 01:03:10,932
living without any states whatsoever.

1136
01:03:11,542 --> 01:03:13,532
Which I'm, you know, personally, I'm for it.

1137
01:03:13,572 --> 01:03:17,002
I would love to say, Hey, I'm a 100 percent convinced anarcho capitalist.

1138
01:03:17,402 --> 01:03:22,092
I'm just thinking, okay, to actually be that, we need this like, uh, middle,

1139
01:03:22,292 --> 01:03:26,642
you know, stage, uh, where states are just like completely compromised in

1140
01:03:26,642 --> 01:03:30,352
their ability to fund themselves and the ability to go to war with each other.

1141
01:03:30,612 --> 01:03:35,552
And in like, they just have to be completely restricted to their initial.

1142
01:03:35,702 --> 01:03:38,582
Um, uh, meaning of conflict resolution.

1143
01:03:38,882 --> 01:03:42,192
And then from there we can actually transition into a world, call it

1144
01:03:42,212 --> 01:03:45,192
an capitalism, call it the Bitcoin vision, call it whatever you want,

1145
01:03:45,572 --> 01:03:47,152
um, in a world of peace, basically.

1146
01:03:47,292 --> 01:03:49,722
So, um, yeah, and that's all.

1147
01:03:49,792 --> 01:03:53,352
Um, super, like I super enjoyed the conversation and, uh, thank you.

1148
01:03:54,747 --> 01:03:55,437
Thank you, Alex.

1149
01:03:56,132 --> 01:03:59,302
I'd just like to point out that there are two things that the leftists

1150
01:03:59,986 --> 01:04:03,686
get right, and that's defund the police and my body my choice.

1151
01:04:04,256 --> 01:04:08,216
They just haven't thought through the implications of what that actually means.

1152
01:04:08,876 --> 01:04:09,206
Like,

1153
01:04:09,291 --> 01:04:09,541
Yeah.

1154
01:04:10,175 --> 01:04:11,941
and maybe one more thing, because I forgot to mention it.

1155
01:04:11,941 --> 01:04:12,231
Sorry.

1156
01:04:12,311 --> 01:04:14,731
Um, like you, you don't have to buy the book actually.

1157
01:04:14,761 --> 01:04:15,821
So it's available for free.

1158
01:04:15,867 --> 01:04:17,277
I actually put it up on a domain.

1159
01:04:17,337 --> 01:04:18,267
It's called monetaryanarchy.

1160
01:04:19,047 --> 01:04:19,297
com.

1161
01:04:19,621 --> 01:04:20,641
you can read it there.

1162
01:04:20,641 --> 01:04:21,711
You can download a PDF.

1163
01:04:21,861 --> 01:04:25,047
And if you actually want to like read it on like, you know, as paperback

1164
01:04:25,077 --> 01:04:29,117
or on your Kindle, you can also get it on Amazon, but all of the

1165
01:04:29,117 --> 01:04:30,717
information is on monetaryanarchy.

1166
01:04:30,718 --> 01:04:31,322
com.

1167
01:04:32,660 --> 01:04:34,360
Anywhere else you'd like to direct people?

1168
01:04:34,380 --> 01:04:35,000
Twitter?

1169
01:04:35,740 --> 01:04:36,860
Anything else, for example?

1170
01:04:37,097 --> 01:04:38,697
I'm not like super active on Twitter.

1171
01:04:38,697 --> 01:04:41,477
However, I have a profile there and I actually read through my tweets.

1172
01:04:41,547 --> 01:04:45,807
It's Alex, Shane, Eser, E S E R, um, on, on Twitter.

1173
01:04:45,867 --> 01:04:47,607
You can follow me there and you can shoot me a DM.

1174
01:04:47,667 --> 01:04:50,097
And,  if you want to, talk about the book or anything else related to

1175
01:04:50,097 --> 01:04:53,317
Bitcoin, I'm always all ears because, uh, we have to make the thing happen.

1176
01:04:54,112 --> 01:04:54,792
Fantastic.

1177
01:04:54,822 --> 01:04:56,572
Back to Knut to send us off.

1178
01:04:57,277 --> 01:04:57,607
great.

1179
01:04:57,797 --> 01:05:01,397
Make sure to check out the book and thank you for tuning in

1180
01:05:01,397 --> 01:05:03,127
to the Freedom Footprint Show.

1181
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:04,610
thank you, Alex.

1182
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:07,020
See you on the internet.

1183
01:05:07,382 --> 01:05:08,152
yeah, take care.

1184
01:05:08,252 --> 01:05:09,062
Have a great weekend.