So, what I wanted is just to like create a resource that you don't,
you know, have to be, let's just say, a trained economist, or you
are person who's just interested in economics and how money works.
That you don't have to spend, you know, like hours and hours and hours
and hours of reading of Rothbard, Hoppe, Mises, and so on and so on.
And then you have to figure out, yourself, maybe reading,
Saifedean, okay, how can I actually put everything together?
You know, I just wanted to have a single thread where you actually go
from, okay, how does money emerge?
How do states emerge?
What we just talked about, and then, you know, is there another solution?
Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint show, the Bitcoin
philosophy show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn.
Today, we're joined by Alexander Acer, economist, entrepreneur,
and author of Monetary Anarchy, the separation of money and state.
We discuss a wide range of topics, especially related to anarchy and Bitcoin.
So let's dive in.
Alex, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show.
Thanks for joining us.
Thank you, Luke.
I'm super happy to be here.
Yes, Alexander Eser, you've written a book called Monetary Anarchy.
Can you tell us a bit about yourself and a bit about the book?
Sure, sure.
Um, to be honest, don't wanna talk too much about me because I think, uh,
Bitcoin is the, uh, important thing, but, uh, the, uh, the necessary information
is I'm like a uh, trained economist.
So I studied actually economics and finance, but after university,
I took the entrepreneurial route.
Um, I started a online company with my, my best friend after uni.
Uh, We're doing this now for, for seven years.
Um, uh, These days we are actually building software, um, to be honest,
got in and out of Bitcoin, Uh, and since, but since like three years
ago, I'm, I'm so deep in a rabbit hole It's, uh, it's unbelievable.
And this is the reason why I actually, um, wrote this book.
So, um, yeah, basically a background economics and, uh,
technology entrepreneur these days.
All right, and what is the book about?
the book is titled, uh, "Monetary uh, anarchy, um,.
The separation of money and state".
Um, It's basically the culmination of my, of my, of my personal
journey into, into Bitcoin.
Um, the, like, Long story short is, uh, actually, uh, heard about Bitcoin like
first time, I think 2016 or something.
So actually, I think quite late in comparison to, to
most hardcore Bitcoiners.
um, Actually get into it to 2018, but then dismissed it um, because
this was actually um, the time when I built my first company.
So, a lot to do and didn't have too much time to actually look into it properly.
But two years later in 2020, so when COVID broke out, my girlfriend
did some marketing for a shitcoin and she got paid a little bit of
a salary in the shitcoin and she asked me whether I can look into it.
And this is how I got the, again, into, into, into, into
like the, the crypto sphere.
And I think like everybody, I took a small turnaround with all of the Ethereum
stuff, but then actually dismissed it quite quickly and found the light,
yeah, which is, which is Bitcoin.
bright orange light, yes.
yeah, there you go.
a beacon.
Only detectable with laser eyes.
Yes.
There you go.
Um, and then, um, about like specifically about the book, um, to be honest,
like, since I was like a teenager, um, basically just interested, like,
you know, how does the world work?
How does politics work?
How does, How does economics work in general?
Right.
Um, but, you know, There were always these questions in my head, for
instance, you know, after the financial crisis in 2008, um, um, Why do all of
these people get, uh, get bailed out?
Yeah, I didn't understand.
Um, And I actually studied economics after the crisis.
So between 2011 and 2015, and I was actually just sitting in uni the
whole time and just, you know, got, got teached neoclassical economics
and asking myself, hey, this doesn't make really any sense, What, what,
what, what they're talking about, but, um, I had to, I had to choke it.
Yeah.
Um, uh, And in my last semester, I actually got to get to, um,
know the Austrian economists.
And this was the first time that, uh, economics made sense to me.
Um, and, um, Then I'm just like Bitcoin, just dismissed it because
you know, the world goes on.
And if you're not into it, then like your daily life, you're
just like, okay, whatever.
And, um, but then when I, when I, when I got into Bitcoin again, I just like
rediscovered the Austrians, um, started to basically reading like all about it.
But, um, you know, this time, not because I had to, or because it was
like part of my university studies, but just out of pure interest.
And, um, Um, like everything I learned about it, um, is basically what I've
written in my book and basically extended like the Austrian, uh, literature,
um, with, with Bitcoin, because obviously, uh, Ludwig von Mises, uh,
didn't know Bitcoin, uh, in his time.
We assume, I mean, Bitcoin was around, it's just that the hash rate was zero
at the time, so it was hard to detect.
, and mAybe the hashtag was not even calculated by a computer, but, um,
basically with a pencil on a white paper.
Yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe someone tried to find element zero somewhere out there.
We can never know.
Maybe on another planet, but in that case it would be outside of our hash
horizon and we would never know.
all right.
So, we've had a similar journey, it seems like, stumbling on, Austrian economics
after Bitcoin, but being, you know, anarcho capitalist curious, before that.
And then, just having to deep dive because it's too interesting.
I mean the first book that comes to mind when we talk about Austrian
economics and Bitcoin is of course, the Bitcoin standard by Saifedean Ammous.
So how inspired were you by that book and, what separates your book from that book?
Like how are they different and from other Bitcoin books and
Austrian economics books?
Yeah, I think what Saifedean did, actually also helped me a lot to, to
understand everything because what he did is that he actually put it into
a economic context, which is great.
But, um, what I was lacking a little bit, and this is why also, I'm talking more
about, political economy, is actually, let's just say the political side of it.
The question nowadays we are organized, uh, in the form of statism.
But really thinking about, okay, why are they even states, you
know, like, why do we need them?
We don't.
yeah, correct, correct, correct.
Um, and what my book is doing, um, maybe we can actually get into, get
into the status in part because I think actually the main differentiator, but,
um, what I'm really trying to do is to, um, build a thread um, between money
and, um, like the organization of us.
As human beings in a society.
So first answering the question.
Okay.
Um, uh, Why do we need money?
Um, uh, Probably we haven't get, uh, we, we don't have to get into
this, uh, because, um, uh, I think the, the, the answer is clear.
You know, we need, uh, like a medium of exchange.
So we don't, uh, we don't have to barter with each other.
Um, But what you didn't see over the arc of history is obviously
that money always gets corrupted.
Yeah.
So you always have like a central power, which um, which, which coerces um, uh,
the money supply and uh, like inflates the, the, the, the money we have.
Um, But this begs the question, obviously.
Okay.
If we always have like the central power, which is coercing money, why
do we even need the central power?
Right.
Um, and the question which actually arises there, um, is if we were like
on a completely new planet or, um, in a completely fresh society, um,
how would we organize ourselves?
Yeah.
Like, um, do we need a state or can we actually live in anarchy?
Um, and, uh, the you, you quickly, uh, get into is how do we resolve conflicts?
Because, um, The truth of the matter is, um, let's just say we, we,
we, we fight for, not even fight.
Yeah.
But let's just say, um, we are on this beautiful new planet and there is, um,
one side to build a house next to a river.
And I was the first, but maybe one of you guys also want to build your house there.
Um,, and there are like no rules.
Yeah.
So how do we decide who's able to put their house there.
So, um, like that's the reason why they are like conflicts.
Um, and We, as human beings, if we were like completely rational, there's
a principle by Hoppe, which is called the non aggression principle, which
basically says, okay, um, whoever is like the first owner of something, uh,
um, has also the right to it, right?
Like it's, it's, it's,
Homesteading, as Rothbard puts it, yeah.
But the problem is, we human beings, we are usually not so rational, we
are not like, oh, okay, he was there first, and now it's like all his, right?
But we fight for our own right, and we try to get the better
of each other, especially if in the, in the absence of law.
So there is this problem of, of, of, um, of a conflict and how
to like resolve this conflict.
And this is how actually states emerge because, um, usually how those
conflicts are resolved is by like an arbitrator who actually decides,
okay, who of you, um, was there first?
Okay, then this is, this is, this is your land or this is, uh, this
is, this is,, this is your land.
Um, So now the question becomes, okay, Who are those arbitrators
and who is electing them?
Yeah.
And then when we actually think of like a,, let's just say human
pecking order, let's maybe imagine we are all back in kindergarten.
Um, Usually in kindergarten, there's also like a social hierarchy, right?
Where like not a kindergarten teacher tells, Hey, uh, you
are the most popular kid.
Yeah.
And now everybody has to do what you want.
But usually like the children are with each other.
There is like a natural, let's just say a leader.
Yeah.
Like, um, this leader can be.
Whatever, of size, whatever, like he's already taller than anybody
else or is maybe the smartest girl.
I don't know.
Yeah.
But, um, people are like, we human beings, we are drawn to natural leaders.
So, um, the first, um, let's just say societal structure, which usually, um,
arises in, in, in humanity, it's like an it's like an, um, Aristocracy, um, because
you have like these natural leaders, um, who are, um, you know, are more wealthy
due to their hard labor or whatever.
And those people are usually the first like judges who are trying to, um, who
are trying to, um, organize society.
Um, and then let's just say, uh, history goes on, yeah, out of
aristocrats, uh, becomes uh, kings.
Uh, How's this happening?
Because usually, like, uh, if you have, uh, like not a final court,
uh, if you don't have like a final, um, uh, arbitrator, um, you can
go from court to court to court to court and fight your decision
again and again and again and again.
But sometimes you just need like a final decision, right?
Um, And this is how the concept of like a king evolved that you have like an
arbitrators of arbitrators who's like the, who has like the final word, uh, word.
But in this like state of the world, um, there is no, let's just
say, king with special rights.
Because when we think of kings, right?
We are thinking of a person who's like a natural born king,
who's like from a royal family.
And who is like the, the, the, uh, what's like the right to rule.
Yeah.
But, um, this is not like, uh, the same definition of, of the word king,
because in this world that we only have aristocrats, um, we have just to say one
aristocrat who actually shines among.
All others who has whatever the most merit as a natural leader.
Um, and this person actually can take advantage of his position
because then he's like, look, you know, um, the commoners or like,
uh, the, like most people think I'm the most popular of all of you guys.
Then he actually goes to the normal people and, uh, can, can
tell them, look, if you crown me.
Your king officially.
Yeah.
Um, then I can help you guys to get rid of all of the other aristocrats
because in the society, usually aristocrats own, you know, wells, their
own land, their own, um, property.
Um, and then, um, uh, the king asks them, look, um, if you have
debt with those aristocrats and you elect me as a king, then I'll, uh,
relieve you of all of your debt.
The only thing I have to ask you is I'm the ruler, so I make the laws.
And, um, uh, you, you, you give me some taxes and, uh, this is basically, um,
how like Kings could have emerged, not as like a, um, let's just say royal,
um, uh, person out of, out of nothing.
Um, but based on like a market mechanism, right.
And then.
Time goes on, time goes on.
Um, and we forget the concept of aristocrats, right?
Because humanity forgets, okay, where, where does the law come from?
Obviously the king makes the law.
Okay.
But how was it before?
Right.
Um, and as time goes on, we just forget and we just take the king, um,
for granted and then fast forward.
To nowadays, um, we have the concept of democracy, right?
So, uh, kings are long gone, um, they have like a representative function,
maybe in Spain and England and some other countries, but they are
not like political actors anymore.
Um, So how.
Could it be that states evolved over kings?
Uh, More or less it's the same.
It's the same thinking as before.
Yeah.
Um, the king had a court and in this court were, uh, the, the former, uh, the
former um, aristocrats and also, um, maybe some intellectuals who are like, uh, you
know, doing the propaganda of the king.
Like nowadays, maybe TV is doing the propaganda for the state.
And earlier it was like, um, uh, Proper intellectuals who are like, maybe
they're maybe like monks and priests who were like the first writing books
and they were like in the service of the king, um, spreading his word.
Um, and then obviously for those intellectuals, it's quite
easy to say, look, I'm actually doing propaganda for this guy.
Um, but isn't it unfair that one person has all of this power and usually I, as a
priest, yeah, I'm far better suited to be the representative of all of the people.
And then over time, um, this concept evolves where, um, you have this
uprising when you kill one single family, you have all of this wealth
supposedly, yeah, um, supposedly, um, spreading over the whole society.
And this is how we ended up with uh, with, with, uh, democracies and states nowadays.
But the problem there is that when you go from this natural society
where we all have the same law, right?
In this society, like coming back to money, in this society, we
all decide what money is, right?
Like the money is, um, you know, something scarce.
It could be gold, could be silver, could be copper, could
be shells, yeah, whatever.
But we all decide what's money and nobody can push like top down on
us, um, what's supposed to be money.
It's like a bottom up process.
Um, And over time, when we actually, first, we are not losing the right um,
to decide what is money to the state.
The first right we actually give up is lawmaking.
And with this lawmaking, the state can then decide, okay, I have to
centralize power over the law.
And now I decide what money is.
And then you have this top down process where states force the
money production upon society.
That's a very L T L D R, but anyway, yeah, and after they have invented
the money printer, they basically cannot run out of funds, right?
And, uh, therefore they cannot run out of power, so that is why
they grow like cancers everywhere.
and, uh, take more and more control over people's lives.
I recently read a short book called Beyond Democracy.
Uh, I don't remember the author's name, but it was very, very similar
to Hoppe's, Democracy, The God That Failed, that I guess you've read.
which makes good arguments for...
Why democracy is inherently socialist, inherently collectivist in nature,
and very few people dare to think outside that box because we're,
we're spoon fed propaganda about democracy from a very early age
that this is the rule of the people.
And therefore it cannot be questioned, when it's really not, ethical thing would
be people ruling over their own lives, which is not the case in a democracy.
Democracy tends to people trying to extract resources from other people in
order to enrich themselves, which is.
Detrimental to society as a whole.
yeah, so, so when did you release this book?
how long has it been out?
actually in May this year.
And so a couple of months already, um, to be honest, I'm just starting to
do some podcasts now because, um, you know, I have to, I still have to like
work in my, in my, in my other day job.
Yeah..
So it's not, it's not that I can spend and dedicate my whole time to
it, which I actually would love to.
So I'm really doing this, let's just say in the, in the service of
Bitcoin, um, because for me, you know, what's, what's most important, um,
Like coming back to like getting into Bitcoin, um, because probably, um, you
had the same urge like, like I did.
Um,, you feel like you found out a secret and you are like the only
person knowing the secret and you first want to tell everybody about it.
Yeah.
And then basically I just told everybody and I could really see, okay, shit.
People are not doing the work and they just like label me.
Okay.
This person is crazy now, you know, and,
I, I know that journey.
so what I, what I wanted is just to like create a resource that, um, you don't,
you know, have to, be let's just say you are, you know, a trained economist or,
um, you are person who's just interested in economics and how money works.
That you don't have to spend, you know, like hours and hours and hours
and hours of reading of Rothbard, Hoppe, Mises, um, and so on and so on.
And then you have to figure out, yourself, maybe reading,
Saifedean, okay, how can I actually put everything together?
You know, I just wanted to have like a, a single thread where you actually go
from, okay, um, how does money emerge?
How do states emerge?
What we just talked about, and then, you know, is there another solution, which
we could, we can, we can talk about now.
Um, but then also how does, how does Bitcoin fit into everything?
if you are like, like new to, to, to let's just say the Bitcoin space, I
think it's a cool resource just the
Austrian literature.
But also including the Hoppe stuff.
So, um, the, the, the political and status inside of this, and
not only economics and Bitcoin.
Did you ever hear about, Alexander Svetsky's, uh, the spirit of Satoshi ai,
I mean, I don't know him personally, but I actually, I
think I heard about the project.
I've, I've read the book of him.
but can you like remind me what this
uh, it's, it's an AI that is trained on, uh, bitcoin literature and Mises
literature, uh, like adjacent things.
so the ai, comes up with answers based on that instead of based on random
information on the internet, plus, uh, a couple of political correctness
filters as, as other do so, so, uh, maybe you should contact him, uh, about.
I'm just adding the book to the brain of the spirit of Satoshi.
Yeah.
That would be nice.
Cool.
I haven't seen the project yet, but actually this sounds a very, like a
very good idea because I know from like firsthand experience that,
um, at least the chat GPT AI is already, uh, filtering, interesting
things out or label stuff, uh, very controversial, which actually are not.
Yeah.
that's another thing.
Uh, we probably need more of it.
you know, competing AIs, that right now people are using chat GPT
mostly, at least for text prompts.
Um, but, some, some healthy market competition there is
probably not a bad thing.
Yes, yes, most certainly.
And also, um, to be honest, I don't want to relieve, uh, like my whole
data to like a corporation somewhere.
This is the next thing where I'm a little bit like, uh, whatever we do nowadays
seems to be, uh, more centralized, more centralized, more centralized.
That's the reason why I think it's very important what we're doing.
Yeah.
Luke, do you have any questions for Alexander that pop into your mind?
Yeah, sure.
So, so you've talked about the historical context of how states
emerge, then where do you go from there into the Bitcoin of it all?
What's the connection there that you're making?
Yeah, sure.
before we get into the Bitcoin part, um, maybe let's get into the anarchy
part, which sounds very, very bad.
Yeah.
But, uh, so the, so this word anarchy has like a very, bad connotation, right?
So if I would tell my
Not to us.
Yeah, probably, probably.
But if I would like tell a person in the street, let's live on
anarchy, people would look at you and be like, okay, what's going on?
and I have to admit, you know, like, um, years ago, um, to be honest, if, if, if
you would have told me, anarchy, I would think immediately of like Antifa and
like a left wing, , extreme organization.
Yeah.
But, the truth of the matter is, Anarchy at the end of the day just
means rules without a ruler, right?
So it doesn't mean there are no rules, yeah?
Because the other rules we are all making, it just means that there is nobody who's
like the central point of rulemaking.
And to me, anarchy is the answer or it's like another possibility to the
question do we need states Right?
So if we know, okay, states over time have centralized power, have coerced our money,
have coerced our societal organization.
What is the answer to that?
And possible answer is, is, anarchy.
And just to get this bad picture out of your mind.
what I'm always like giving as an example is that the market for, for dating.
Yeah.
So a lot of relationships, this market is incomplete anarchy
it's like in complete anarchy.
We don't have a single person who is like centrally ordering
people to get married, to have children, whatever, like everything.
it's, it's, somewhat depends on what country you're born in.
Sure, sure.
But let's just say in the West, yeah, in the West, it's like
complete, it's complete anarchy on this market for, for dating.
And, um, this market, I think works quite well.
Yeah.
So, um, we do not need a central planner to, for, for, for our
relationships to, to make things work.
So, like, the word anarchy doesn't have to have this, like, super bad connotation.
And now the question becomes, okay, how can you build in society based
on this, um, on this, on this, on this, on this premise of anarchy?
Um, and usually there are like two ways to do it.
The first we already like talked a little bit about earlier, um, based
on this, um, non aggression principle.
So, uh, based on morals.
So, um, if we all had like no emotions and we're like super rational beings
and all of us accepted, okay, if person A is the proprietor of product
A, yeah, then I, as a person B, I'm not allowed to take it away from him.
Um, and we would all live with each other.
Reasoning.
Yeah.
But the problem is, this is not how humans work because
humans usually are not machines.
Yeah.
They have emotions.
They have, um, they have,, they have desires and they have wants, um, and
this is why the system usually fails.
Um, and this is also why, as alluded earlier, we have,
we have violent conflicts.
Um, so.
I think it's possible to say, okay, we can live without a ruler, but
we have to find a way how, um, how, how, uh, we would protect us from,
um, actors who are not obeying this non aggression principle, who...
Try to take stuff away, uh, from, from me or from you, um, with the violence.
And what basically let's just say literature says, yeah, is that you
can, um, also, um, build a society based on like the market mechanism.
So if we all have a need.
For protection from violence.
Okay.
What happens?
They are like smart entrepreneurs out there who would build a service who would
then protect us from, from violent actors.
So it's like a service you can, you can, you can, um, you can consume.
Yeah.
Um, and now like Thinking about this a bit more, um, it would
obviously be easy to argue.
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, then we have like these little protection agencies, um, who are
protecting us from violent actors.
But what's, what, what's happening if there's a conflict?
And both of the people involved in the conflict, they both,
um, have a protection agency.
Would the protection agencies not fight with each other then?
And then in the end, there would emerge one big protection agency and,
um, this big protection agency would be somehow like a state or something.
The answer is no, this would not happen.
Because what would happen in the society is that.
When the protection agencies fight each other, and if they're not resolving their
conflicts peacefully, they would have like very high costs because imagine
whenever you try to get the, to get the better of a other, of like a different
agency, um, you would have high costs because your own people would maybe die
or your own people would, um, you know, You have to, you have to replace them.
So, um, what those protection agencies would do, they would try to find a
peaceful solution to the conflict.
So, um, as we said before, in this, um, in this example, the law does
not have to be made, um, top down by like a central authority law
can also be, um, made bottom up.
So, um, If all of the protection agencies have the need to, um, solve a conflict
peacefully again, what would happen?
The market would provide a solution.
So the market, um, recognizes, uh, the need for like an arbitrator.
And then as like protection services evolve, also arbitration
services would evolve.
So, um, like I, as a printer, I, as an entrepreneur, I can basically offer.
My service, okay, I'm now an arbitrator and in my court, this law is the rule.
And then this protection services, they can actually contract me if they both
agree, okay, if we have a conflict, we go to Alex, he will solve our conflict.
And then they can actually take my understanding of the law or like the law.
And then they can market this law to their, um, to their users.
So to their consumers, um, so to the, to the, to the end user.
And then over time, the end user would decide, okay, um, to which
protection agency do I subscribe?
So, um, To whom do I give like my, my, my money?
And, um, over time, like a law system would evolve, which basically means
the most popular, like the law we live by, would be like the most
popular law, um, in this, in society.
Um.
What would that mean?
This would mean, um, that the law, um, is not 100 percent similar.
So there's not one single law, but, uh, bear in mind nowadays, there's also
not one single health insurance, right?
Like health insurance.
We all know what we, what we talk about when we talk about health insurance, but
it's different in different countries.
And also it's different even within a country.
So if you go to like private health insurance in the US, Um, they are like
whatever 500 offerings, all of them are slightly different, but they're
similar enough that, um, the consumer recognizes them as, - um, health insurance
and the same would happen to, to law.
So we would have maybe 500 different laws and the 500, the
different arbitration services.
Um, but the law would still be more or less the same except for, um,
small, um, differences like, okay.
In this area, the death penalty is part of the law, but in another
area, it's not part of the law.
So people would move to the law they want to live by.
And when you actually think this through, you would get like very,
like, we would say, you know, weird, weird law systems, because there
might be a place where like hard drugs like heroin are completely illegal.
But why?
Because all of the people who want to consume heroin, they will all live there.
And if I'm not living there, then like, what do I care?
Right.
So, um, there is no, there is no conflict if everybody wants to, wants,
wants the same in this, in this, in this area, um, in the system.
Um, it's hard, you know, to get your mind around this concept.
Okay.
Um, law and fire and law and protection from violence doesn't
have to be organized by the state.
It can be organized by the market.
Like everything can be organized by the market and.
As we are living in a world where this is not the case, it's easy to
forget this power of the market.
The counter argument I usually get, or which is also quite true,
is there's a concept which is called the tragedy of the commons.
And tragedy of the commons basically means a public good.
So for instance, a firefighting service.
So if I was living in the society, um, in a, in a city, um, obviously,
um, we need a firefighting service, but the problem quickly becomes, okay,
who needs a firefighting service?
And the answer is everybody.
And as everybody needs us, like the, uh, the willingness to pay for it.
It's like, Super low.
Why?
Because, um, I know, okay, everybody else will pay for it because we all need it.
So I don't have to pay for it because I will be covered with it anyways.
Because if, if the, if, if my house burns, they will just, um, they will, they will
make sure it doesn't burn anymore because otherwise the house of my neighbor also
burns and he might be protected, right?
So, um, you have this concept of public goods and, um, Like one big
argument for democracy is, hey, we need the central authority to
overcome this problem of public goods.
Um, but a very cool counter argument to this is, um, if we are thinking
about restaurants, charity and tipping, yeah, why are we tipping
restaurants everywhere in the world?
At first sight, like doesn't make any sense, but, uh, but the reason for it
is, um, we give tips because we want that the service in the restaurant
is very good, but, and we also don't.
And the same concept could evolve with, um, public goods, you know, like, like,
like bridges, like, like firefighting services, even like national defense.
Yeah.
Think of like national defense, like a, like a sports club.
So companies would actually maybe, you know, pledge a certain amount of the
revenues to like the national defense service of our anarchic society.
Um, and then.
In return, they can use, um, this, this, this, this, um, pledge as marketing.
Like, look, um, we actually give 5 percent of our profits
to our national defense service.
Um, And now that's the reason why we are allowed to market as very, um, patriotic
or very, uh, or it's like a good company.
And then over time, a system will evolve where we can even overcome
this problem of, of, of, um, of the the tragedy of the commons.
So this is let's just say the um, uh, argument for, for, for anarchy that this
can also work without a central authority.
So, uh, let me, Let me quickly stop there and get into, uh, questions before
we go to the, to the Bitcoin part.
Yeah.
So, I've been thinking a lot about how a, um, more consensual, society
could emerge out of the deadlock of, democracy that we're living in, currently.
And, I think the role of Bitcoin plays is, , first and
foremost as unseeable property.
So if I point a gun to your head and say, Alex, give me all your Bitcoins.
You can choose not to, and there is no way for me to use force and extract it
from your head, because all bitcoins are in someone's head at the end of the day,
because it's all about keeping a secret.
So it's very hard to confiscate.
From a game theoretical perspective, if I threatened bitcoiner on the planet, I
would get about half, their bitcoins.
So, so there, On average, 50 percent more costly to try to steal someone's
bitcoins than to try to steal someone's other stuff, like more physical stuff.
and I think this is a very underrated, Aspect of what
Bitcoin does for people already.
I mean, everyone is afraid of the 5 or 15 or 21 dollar wrench
attack, depending on how much inflation you have in your country.
But the thing that they leave out is that they are being attacked by
a 5 wrench or a 10 wrench at the moment via inflation and via taxes.
They are being coerced into paying for stuff that they
didn't necessarily sign up for.
So I think that this is, this is how Bitcoin, removes the profitability
of violence from the equation.
So in that sense, it's, it's more akin to intellectual
armor than, uh, than a weapon.
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have you been thinking along similar lines, uh, about how, how we transition
into a more peaceful society?
Yeah.
Um, I love your arguments.
Um, I, I, uh, I think, um, on the, on the same lines, um, the only
thing I think we differ a little bit is that, um, unfortunately I
have to say, I was actually thinking really long, really hard about this.
Um, because eventually when you, um, you know, when you read all of this and when
you actually think it's true and actually, you know, like leave out emotions, um,
for, for a moment, um, I personally would love to see like a world without states.
So I would love to basically sit here and really say, Hey, I'm like,
I'm 100 percent anarcho capitalist.
And I really think a society without states would be better.
Um, the unfortunate truth is, and I'm also like mentioning this, um, a little
bit in the book, um, but I just have to like, you know, hold my hands up
and be like, okay, you know, um, There is not this concept, okay, nowadays
we don't have states, nowadays we have states and tomorrow we don't, it will
be like a long, long process because let's just say, you know, in one single
country, it Everybody, you know, we have this hyperbitcoinization and everybody
says, okay, um, we defund the state.
Um, and now, um, we all live in anarchy.
The problem is that if this was to happen, um, the system I described
before where we maybe use charity to, um, to fund, um, like national defense,
AGA Geiser fund for the fire brigade.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, but this, I mean, personally, I actually think the system could
evolve, but it takes time to evolve.
And in between you have like this power vacuum.
And if other countries would not like switch to this Bitcoin standard, they
would actually take advantage of this, of this, of this power vacuum and, um, um,
um, anarchy society.
Um, so, yeah.
So it's not like this direct step from, hey, we are living in a world
we're living today to like this Bitcoin standard, uh, based on energy.
So there must be something in between.
And what I'm thinking, um, of this in between step, this is
actually what you just said.
There's this other concept, it's called Minarchy and Minarchy
basically means minimal state.
Before in history, this minimal state was never possible because the problem
is as soon as you say, Hey, yes, we need a state, a state wants to grow
because also bear in mind, states, they are also, um, an anarchy to each other.
It's not like a single state, but states try to get the better of each
other, um, and, and have like hunger for life, like more and more power, right?
Yeah.
That's, this is a Misessian argument, from the beginning, like, that, a minimal state
is as utopian, as no state at all, that it's, it's simply not possible because of
the cancerous nature of, of their growth.
Yeah, correct.
But I actually think and here it comes which I think is
like my personal solution.
Maybe you find an argument that my personal solution
doesn't make any sense at all.
Yeah.
But my personal solution of thinking about this is with Bitcoin.
Actually, I think it's the first time in history that we have this
possibility of a minimal state.
Why?
Because, they cannot coerce the money supply.
So they have to work within a certain limit, which is basically
the limit of Bitcoin, right?
So, maybe there is a possibility to, like, take the cancer out of the state.
So it's nature that they want to grow, grow, grow, and they really have to focus.
on their, let's just say, main reason for existence.
And as we discussed earlier, their main reason for existence is the
resolution of conflicts, which basically means security and lawmaking.
And the world I'm personally envisioning is that in a first step,
we actually are able to scale back.
the state back back to their original, meaning of conflict resolution.
And they are not like, you know, meddling in all of this, whatever,
transportation, healthcare, medicine, schools, education, and so many things,
you know, and I think as a first step, we cannot basically eradicate them, but
we have to really make sure that they only are able to, focused on this.
And if they are like that small, then I actually think we can
take another step and hopefully like eradicate them whatsoever.
But I don't think it's possible without this in between step, because if you don't
have it, there's like this power vacuum, which other states would, you know, fill.
yeah.
That's interesting.
I think we are living in that step right now.
that thing is playing out, like El Salvador being the obvious first mover
here, but states are already stepping up.
competing for brainpower, like, there is a brain drain from more oppressive places
to, uh, more, lucrative places for, for big coiners in particular, but for big
brain people in general, and people are moving to where they're treated better.
So people vote with their feet, as, as we say, and I don't think you call
this, an individual solution, which I think is that's the, uh, the poodle's
kernel or , whatever the expression is, that we, we each need to find our own
individual solution to this problem.
How we can remove as much noise from the, equation of our lives, as possible.
And, uh, you can do this in many ways.
You can first, you can, you can throw your TV out your window.
Uh, which is a rock and roll move to do and stop watching the news.
You can stop consuming mainstream media totally.
And you can also, opt out of all sorts of other things.
and the, the ultimate opt out move, which you can do to any
extent you want is to convert your, your fiat currency into Bitcoin.
Uh, and the more you do that, the more you separate yourself from.
The noise of, uh, governments, uh, fighting one another, the more you
actually live in and on Bitcoin and you interact with other Bitcoiners, and use
Bitcoin, not only using it in the sense of moving Satoshis, on the time chain,
but also in what we're doing now, having conversations with other Bitcoiners and
trading information with one another.
Literally limitless potential there.
And, and so much to do and so much to find out.
And I think we're seeing this, move from collectivism to individualism
playing out, uh, in real time as, we transition into the future.
and I.
somewhat agree with how you describe it.
I just view these as maybe not steps, but a more gradual change,
and it's very individual, and it differs a lot from person to person.
I mean, there are people who live on nothing but Bitcoin at the moment.
Uh, which I suspect is the category all three of us fall into that
we're somewhere in between our fiat lives and our, our Bitcoin lives.
And we're, we're trying to allocate more and more time and effort into the
Bitcoin side of things, but we're still somewhat tied to, uh, paying taxes.
And, I mean, we.
Whenever we buy something at the supermarket, we're paying taxes,
like whenever we use fiat currencies, we're stealing from our children.
So we try to do that as little as possible.
But we're still somewhat stuck in the in the legacy system.
And we need to have one step in that in order for us to be able to build
this new reality in parallel to that.
And I think it's very much akin to what happened in, like, say, Czechoslovakia
after the Berlin Wall fell and, and, uh, there was this big underground
movement that started doing things, consensually amongst themselves without
even involving the state at all.
So, so I think we, we we're seeing a kind of grassroots revolution,
of individualists, happening all over the world at the same time.
that's how, how I'd describe it, the first stages of hyper colonization.
It's all hopefully already there.
Yeah.
I have like one or two, things to, to add to that.
Um, because you know, like when you get into all of this, you want things to
change, you know, as fast as possible.
Yeah.
Like tomorrow I'm going to live in this like Bitcoin world.
but, uh, but the honest, the truth is that most of society, uh, is still, as you
said, like living completely in fiat world and they're like not ready, you know?
And if you, force this change too quickly, I'm actually afraid just
things will break down a little bit.
Yeah.
What I'm currently thinking, I don't have a final opinion about it yet, but what
I'm currently contemplating a little bit is this notion of empires falling, right?
So you have the US, which is supposedly in their last stages of global domination.
Before that, you had Great Britain, before that you had the
Dutch, before that you had the...
Romance and so on and so on.
Then you have like these empires who like fall, right?
but the eventual end of those empires always came, at a time when they
lost, their control over money.
Yeah.
You had like, um, hyperinflation.
you had the, the value of the currency spiraling out of control and, the central
banks or like the financial system at the time or the state was not able.
to, create a stable situation again, the society functions.
what I'm trying to find out currently is that, whether actually Bitcoin helps
the fiat system to, let's just say, stay in the game for longer, right?
Because, this has happened in the past over and over and
over and over and over again.
the system's basically collapsed, but the difference.
we have right now is that there is a solution outside of this mainstream
system, and this solution, which is Bitcoin, actually could, I don't know,
um, but could force, you know, more, uh, of sort of like, uh, economic
responsible behavior, onto the state or like onto the U S or onto,
let's just say we as like the West.
Um, because before they could just do whatever they want.
Uh, but now they have like this threat of, um, a system outside of their power.
So what I'm thinking a little bit, and I'm not sure about it, and I
would love to have your opinion is actually whether or not Bitcoin forces
economic responsibility onto the states and therefore they actually live
longer than they would naturally do.
Now, that's a very good question.
I think we.
We're talking about two sides of the same coin here, uh, because, Bitcoin
can't really force anyone to do anything since it's completely opt in.
So it's, it's more disrupting than forcing.
And it's true, as you say, like, totalitarianism, the hope people
had before Bitcoin is that totalitarianism simply doesn't work.
It breaks down at some point, because you centrally plan a society, it
doesn't work, and they break down.
Like, this was true for the Roman Empire, and this was true for the
Soviet Union, and the same thing.
They faded out in different ways.
I mean, the Roman Empire took hundreds of years to disappear because people
simply didn't know that if it existed or not, while as the Soviet Union
sort of fell in weeks, and it was just gone after the Berlin Wall fell.
I heard some Russian, person.
tell me the story about how they, uh, the way he described it was that they,
he, they all fell asleep as communists one day and they woke up and no one was
a communist anymore, which is weird.
the way I see it, the West is sort of the new East at this point.
And what happened in Germany, for instance, when, East Germany and
West Germany were united again, which we're always told the story that
now East Germany is free and they can have all this wonderful fun.
free market stuff.
but the ideas from East Germany sort of lived on and, and smittened
some of the West Germans, like, because the East Germans said that,
Oh, you have to pay for childcare.
Why is that?
Uh, it was free in East Germany and though the West Germans go, Oh.
Why do we have to pay for this again?
I don't remember.
We should vote for people that want to make it free.
And the same with healthcare and everything else.
So, I mean, bad ideas can spread and propagate just as much as good ideas can.
if their marketing is good.
So we're sort of falling into the same trap here and the EU is slowly...
I always imagine the EU flag with a red ba background instead of a blue
background, because it's, that's basically what it's turned into at this point.
But then again, I think, a fast transition to hyper ization is, in my opinion, uh,
preferable to slow transition because.
All it does is remove violence from the equation, so the quicker that process
goes, the better, and I think when people are finally orange pilled so that they
actually get Bitcoin, then all the other illusions crumble, so you can't really
understand Bitcoin properly without also understanding that any type of state Or
any type of coercion is morally wrong.
if you don't grasp that concept, you, you're not really a Bitcoin yet, are you?
? So, so, so I think that that, uh, in that sense, well, we can't
force people to become bitcoiners.
We can't force people to become consensual and non-aggression principled people.
it has to happen organically because otherwise we're.
Violating the non aggression principle ourselves.
so all we have is words and communication and that's all Bitcoin is.
So this is the non violent revolution and in my mind, I'd like to see it play
out as fast as possible and I think it's just a matter of people accepting
Bitcoin for their goods and services.
I don't see anything breaking down because, the guy at the local
supermarket starts accepting Bitcoin.
Rather the opposite, he would make more profits, he would expand, he
would get more influential, and...
People around him would flourish or thrive.
that's how I see this playing out, and of course, like, state actors want
to make life miserable for people for periods of time, but we should remember
that They're already doing that.
And, and this is just a, means of protests that we haven't had before.
we can, uh, vote with our feet and vote with our words
because what Bitcoin is words?
It's, it's just once and zero.
It's, it's just mathematics.
It's just we can, All be a one man revolution, and we're all a one man
army, fighting the galactic empire.
And Bitcoin is the photon torpedo fired at the Death Star's thermal exhaust port.
And we're using the orange glowing force to guide the missiles into the right hole.
the rabbit hole of the, of the empire, or, or the, some other hole.
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No, that's beautiful.
That's beautiful.
What a picture.
Hi.
Um, actually I just wanted to, um, you know, expand or like comment on,
on, on one of those things you said.
Um, yeah.
Because, you know, deep in my heart, I really hope that, um, I really hope
that most people recognize this and also recognize this on their own, um,
through, through the market, you know, that maybe like, you know, one day they,
they wake up and their money is like worth half it was, it was, it was used
to be worth, or, um, you know, uh, like this concept of like this central bank
digital ledger and so on, you know, this becomes so bad, um, that, um, people just.
like look for another solution on the market.
Yeah.
And people actually get educated by the market.
And this is how we can make this, um, transition, um, peacefully.
Um, but where I'm a little bit still, um, this is why I also actually argue
in the, in the book for it, like this, um, concept of, of, of like this,
this minimal state, um, as a, I call it step, you call it gradual process.
Um, really believe that, um, When the system swings, yeah, people
who have the means, people who have the wits, people who have the
possibility, obviously they will move.
Like if, so I'm, I'm based in like Munich, Germany.
Um, if, if things get too socialist and too crazy here, I'm the first person
who believe yeah, no question asked.
I will take my Bitcoin with me and we'll take my family with
me and more or less we are gone.
Yeah.
But the problem is just that not everybody has this possibility.
Um, and.
Thanks.
What do these people do?
I mean, they have to stay and then they have to endure the state, basically, and
the state will only get worse and worse and worse because if you defund the state,
if economic productivity leaves a country, the state basically has to finance itself
with less and less taxes because all of the economic actors have left, right?
So what do they do?
They actually squeeze the people who are still there even more.
Um, and this like,
not affected, though.
true, Bitcoin is not affected.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Man, like this is, this is why I love to add to other Bitcoiners
because you are, you are open to let's just say the radical solution.
And um, uh, you know, people who know me like really, really
well, they will all call me Alex.
You are like enemy of the people because you're always suggesting
these radical solutions to problems.
But I'm just like, No, the, the, the honest truth is this would be just nature.
You know, like if the people, um, if the people who, um, have the means
to, to, to to be gone, are gone, this basically means the most capable,
uh, the most capable, uh, people.
They will basically leave and the people who are not
capable, they should stay there.
And we, as humanity, we upgrade and the, to like the next system.
And over time, in 200 years, the people who stayed.
within the state before it finally died.
Um, it's just like a, it's just like a note in history, but it's not
like a big thing anymore, you know?
Um, and I'm in a, when I'm with like, like circle of my friends, I'm always
like discussing this and it's always like, no, no, no, this is too radical.
This is too whatever.
But personally, I'm actually also thinking like this.
Um, and for instance, let me, let me give you like one example.
Um, Because, like, coming back to this nature concept, um, I was actually also
reading some books about, um, about, like, let's just say different animal kingdoms.
Yeah.
Like, how does nature solve problems we have as humans?
For instance, in the West, we have a society which is very old.
Yeah.
You have a lot of Yeah.
All people and young people need to pay taxes to actually
support the healthcare system.
At least this is a problem we have in Germany.
So I got interested.
Okay.
What does nature do to, to, to like solve this problem?
And here comes something which at first, um, was a little bit
radical, but I had to smile because, um, it's, um, about termites.
termites against ants.
Um, because termites and ants, they are fighting for the
same territory in forests.
Okay.
And the termites like ants, they're like a, like a hive.
They have different jobs to be done.
Um, and when they get older, um, they are not maybe able to carry.
Um, something anymore because they are too weak and they don't have, let's just say,
an active function in the society anymore.
So, um, in these wars with the ants, um, they develop, when they get
to a certain age, they develop a sort of liquid in their body, which
turns them more or less into bombs.
So they basically can explode themselves.
So the crazy part is when they have these wars, like these older termites.
They are like the first line of the war.
They go to the, to the ends and then they just like explode.
And then society basically is rejuvenated again because they
basically win the war because of this and they get like new territory.
So what I'm basically want to say is nature is fucking true.
So it's, it's not, it's, it's,
unfortunately, it reminds me of some of the latter human conflicts we've had.
yeah.
Yeah.
Correct, correct.
And for me, this is just always like, you know, when I'm, when, when, when
I'm listening to arguments of, uh, of friends and so on, and I'm like, Hey,
you know, this is, I'm, I'm pro-human, you know, I'm not like against human.
But, uh, but, uh, but, uh, but, uh, but, uh, uh.
the really the core of everything is nature because we are living
in a world ruled by nature.
Yeah.
And, um, to neglect that, um, and to say, Hey, everybody can
have the most beautiful life.
It's just not possible.
Um, and personally, you know, taking this journey from the
system we are living right now.
Um, to this journey, uh, to this, to this, to this, to this
beautiful vision of Bitcoin.
I just hope for like a transition, which is not like, you know, too violent, which
is not like too, um, it doesn't get too crazy, but I definitely know it could be.
So personally, I'm like, Yes, I want this hyperbitcoinization, but we have to find
a way where not like, um, you have like the minimal amount of human suffering.
Because I think if you go the crazy route, if you would go Bitcoin from
tomorrow, all of the bitcoiners would leave, they would all meet in like 1,
countries and the rest of the world would just basically, um, either go on
because they get like a new narrative down their throat and states would survive.
Yeah.
Or, um, they would just like be at like war with each other,
like a civil war everywhere.
And, um, uh, you know, half of humanity would basically, whatever, die.
And I don't know whether this is something we want.
Okay, so, so here's, just to play the devil's advocate here for a
while, here's a Mississian counter argument to the nature thing.
Mises, categorizes competition into biological competition, which is the thing
you would describe with the ants, or just basically might is right and fang and
claw, whoever has the biggest bomb wins.
But humans have another way of resolving conflict and that's catalytic
competition, which is basically free market competition in which everyone
wins because trade does not happen.
If both parties don't believe that they have some something to gain from the
transaction, that's what consensualism is.
And this is what Bitcoin does.
It enables us to communicate in a way to allow for catalytic competition
rather than biological competition.
And how powerful catalytic competition is.
Uh, as an alternative to just violence is so underrated and it's,
it's the reason we have anything.
It's the reason we have houses, roads, fire, brigades, a anything
hoses, it all comes from.
Lowering your time preference to build something and then trading that
something with someone else, trading a good and service with other people.
So, so I think that's, all Bitcoin does.
It removes the noise of, of biological competition and allows
for completely catalytic society.
And I said before that you can vote with your feet and go to some place else.
And you alluded to that the place you're leaving might become a shithole
if all the brains move away from it.
Which is true.
So we need foot soldiers on the ground as well.
We wouldn't want, you know, Europe to be a wasteland and
everyone's moving to El Salvador.
that's not the solution for Europe.
but that's not, going to happen.
Like the way I see that is that The competition between states comes from the
brain drain and from people moving out.
That's what's forcing countries to adopt more laissez faire
rules and more favorable rules to bitcoiners in the long run.
Of course, we're in the early stages of this, and it's hard to predict
the future, so we'll all have to wait and see how it actually plays out.
But the thing I know is that when I'm in a place where there
are a lot of other Bitcoiners around, all the problems go away.
even if we need to use fiat for this or that, there's always a Bitcoiner who has
some fiat and we can sort it out anyway.
it's just...
Tends to work whenever you're around other Bitcoiners, and that's one of the
more beautiful aspects of it, I think, but it's a good debate to have, like,
do we prefer a fast or a slow price?
Transition into hyperbitcoinization.
Like and subscribe and comment below.
What do you think?
And brush your teeth.
Luke, do you have any final questions for Alex before we we wrap this thing up?
Well, to be honest, I've really enjoyed the overview of what
you're getting out of your book.
I think we're kind of like minded here in a lot of ways.
And, well, any other final points that you're trying to make that you think
might be a little bit different from what you've seen in other books or information
about Bitcoin and the anarchy space?
Yeah.
I just wanted to, bring up this notion of, let's just say, again, I
know that we talked about the steps versus, versus, um, uh, gradual change.
Um, Because, you know, as we said in most of the literature, um, uh, we
have this, uh, argument that like this minimal state, uh, is not possible
because the states were like cancer.
And I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, I think this is true.
However, I actually think that through Bitcoin, um, this concept of a minimal
state is possible for the first time.
And before we can get to like this complete hyperbitcoinization, um,
living without any states whatsoever.
Which I'm, you know, personally, I'm for it.
I would love to say, Hey, I'm a 100 percent convinced anarcho capitalist.
I'm just thinking, okay, to actually be that, we need this like, uh, middle,
you know, stage, uh, where states are just like completely compromised in
their ability to fund themselves and the ability to go to war with each other.
And in like, they just have to be completely restricted to their initial.
Um, uh, meaning of conflict resolution.
And then from there we can actually transition into a world, call it
an capitalism, call it the Bitcoin vision, call it whatever you want,
um, in a world of peace, basically.
So, um, yeah, and that's all.
Um, super, like I super enjoyed the conversation and, uh, thank you.
Thank you, Alex.
I'd just like to point out that there are two things that the leftists
get right, and that's defund the police and my body my choice.
They just haven't thought through the implications of what that actually means.
Like,
Yeah.
and maybe one more thing, because I forgot to mention it.
Sorry.
Um, like you, you don't have to buy the book actually.
So it's available for free.
I actually put it up on a domain.
It's called monetaryanarchy.
com.
you can read it there.
You can download a PDF.
And if you actually want to like read it on like, you know, as paperback
or on your Kindle, you can also get it on Amazon, but all of the
information is on monetaryanarchy.
com.
Anywhere else you'd like to direct people?
Twitter?
Anything else, for example?
I'm not like super active on Twitter.
However, I have a profile there and I actually read through my tweets.
It's Alex, Shane, Eser, E S E R, um, on, on Twitter.
You can follow me there and you can shoot me a DM.
And, if you want to, talk about the book or anything else related to
Bitcoin, I'm always all ears because, uh, we have to make the thing happen.
Fantastic.
Back to Knut to send us off.
great.
Make sure to check out the book and thank you for tuning in
to the Freedom Footprint Show.
thank you, Alex.
See you on the internet.
yeah, take care.
Have a great weekend.