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Bitcoin has been the greatest noise remover, maybe it's my personal guiding

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signal of where I want to put my energy, Bitcoin just allows you to put your

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time and energy on what you want to do.

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And I think that's something my generation needs to know.

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you can actually, seek a prize that you want, job that society

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tells you is the best thing did you really choose that for yourself?

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Is that the prize that you want to devote your life to trying to win?

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I think that's an interesting point with my generation in particular,

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that, you know, what is Bitcoin?

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Like it's not just money, it's so much more and it can just allow you to

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live the life that you want to live.

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Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint Show, the Bitcoin

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philosophy show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn.

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And we're here today with Ella Hough, prominent Generation Z Bitcoiner.

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And she also does work with the Bitcoin Students Network and has

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some interesting things to talk about relating to cognitive science.

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We're really happy to have you here, Ella.

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So welcome to the Freedom Footprint Show.

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Oh, thank you so much, Luke and Knut.

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So happy to be here.

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Yeah, great to have you on, Nella.

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And, uh, yeah, first of all, tell us a little about yourself.

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Who are you and how did you get into Bitcoin?

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How did you get orange pilled?

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Yes, happy to.

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Well, it was a journey, I think, like everyone, um, but my name is Ella Hough.

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I am a junior in college studying cognitive science,

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um, as well as some minors in information science and business.

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However, that might change a little bit going into the future.

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but I, Kind of describe my Bitcoin journey, I would say in three

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stages or three notable stages, if I could differentiate them.

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First, it was purely kind of number go up.

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when I was in high school, I took a class just on blockchain.

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That's what it was called.

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Um, I was in a certificate program called the Technology

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Innovation and Entrepreneurship, Entrepreneurship Certificate.

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And there were different classes you need to take to kind of qualify.

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So Blockchain was one.

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it was honestly very like blockchain and the supply chain use case.

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Bitcoin was just like a blip in the course, I would say.

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and then I saw the MIT OpenCourseWare, Gary Gensler and, you know,

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blockchain and money, all of that.

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And then, so that was number one, purely Bitcoin is just money.

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You know, maybe it's this thing you can invest in.

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then I went to the Oslo Freedom Forum and this I think was really.

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The pivotal moment.

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This is what I'm going to call the freedom go up part of my journey.

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and it was just, you know, Bitcoin as money is like the least interesting

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thing about it, or, I mean, maybe that's a big statement, but

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there's just so much more to it.

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and now, um, Erik Cason said this, the greatest wealth you

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get in Bitcoin is the knowledge.

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And so I think that's kind of where I am now in my.

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knowledge go up phase, orange pill journey.

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Um, and it's, uh, maybe we'll talk about it's impacting my course

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of study going into the future.

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so that's kind of the brief overview of how I got into Bitcoin.

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Um, and then what I'm doing now in this space, I'm a part of GenerationBitcoin,

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which is kind of two pillared, um, approach connecting young students

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to create GenerationB to education and then career opportunities.

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Um, and then the Bitcoin Students Network is a new group that we put together.

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and the main mission here, it's.

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More focused at university students is help them, you know, connect,

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start their own university clubs, connect them again to education,

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collaboration, um, career jobs.

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So everything under that realm and it's, um, completely worldwide,

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global, not just in the US.

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So that's a very exciting part of it.

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Um, so yeah, it's a little bit about me and some of the different.

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Areas I spend my time in.

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Yeah, so it's so cool how, uh, how the world is so interconnected nowadays, when

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you think about it, like in comparison to when I grew up in the eighties, in,

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in cold, cold war Sweden where, uh, we had two state fun, uh, funded TV channels

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and three state funded radio channels.

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And that was it, it's like, well, you could buy a magazine and read about

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artists from other countries, uh, but.

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That's like the only exposure we had to, to things from, from anywhere else.

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Uh, we were allowed to watch Donald Duck cartoons, uh, once

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a year on, on Christmas Eve.

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So, so a lot has changed and I, I'm like loving this seeing, that's

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one of the things that keeps me optimistic about the future, despite

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all the bullshit that's going on.

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Uh.

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It's just this interconnectedness and how, how easy it is for people

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to connect, especially like people from the generation growing up now.

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I mean, even younger than you, they will, they will have known nothing else, but,

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you know, a totally interconnected world.

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And I guess that somehow ties into, uh, Cognitive science, but yeah, let,

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let's, uh, let's unpack that a bit first.

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What, what are your thoughts on that and like the interconnectivity

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of the world today?

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Yeah.

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And it's funny because so obviously Zoom, like it's always in, that always

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kind of pops first in my mind because I remember when I was a freshman

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or no sophomore in high school.

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So this was like 2018 and I had to have a Zoom meeting and this

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obviously pre COVID and I was like, this is the weirdest technology.

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What are they having me download?

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I don't understand this.

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And so.

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So I think we've, you know, obviously we've had phones and that's made us more

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connected, but also now, I mean, we're not on Zoom right now, but we're all

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in different parts of the world and it, to me, it feels second nature to just,

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Oh yeah, we can just all hop on a call.

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This is normal.

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Have a conversation.

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so yeah, it's like every 18 months or whatever the time frame is, we

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do all get more interconnected.

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Um, And as you point out, you know, communication can travel

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faster when there's more, you know, nodes connected in a network.

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And so, um, yeah, Bitcoin, I think, is only going to increasingly

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make us more connected.

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Um, this might lead us down a total other tangent, but I took a class on

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language and kind of in the Thought of AI and how we can actually transmit

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messages in their full extent.

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it's like the short summary of it, but, uh, Bitcoin will have very

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dramatic effects in my opinion on connectivity moving forward as well.

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Yeah, it's, it's, if, if there's one good thing that Covid brought

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or, uh, I shouldn't say covid, I should say that the stupid lockdowns.

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It's, it's that, it's, so, it accelerated the.

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Zoom and similar technologies.

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So, so they're much more efficient and convenient now than they were pre COVID.

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I mean, pre COVID we, I mean, video conferencing existed, but it wasn't

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used at all to the same extent.

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so yeah, I think it's really cool.

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So, so what is this cognitive science thing you're doing?

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Yes.

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So cognitive science, it's a very interdisciplinary major in itself.

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So it's computer science, psychology, philosophy, and

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linguistics all wrapped up in one.

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No praxeology?

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No praxeology in there?

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No, and, but I, so, and I've proposed kind of an independent course of

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study and I, I know nothing compared to how you know on it, um, but

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I, I think it's relevant for it.

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And so that's something that I look forward to hopefully

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incorporating in that later on.

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but speaking about cognitive science, there's different ways you can study

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it right now in the university.

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So you can come at it if you're interested from a very like neuroscience perspective.

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there's just about five different concentrations that you can look at.

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I'm somewhat making my own, because I've also become very

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interested in game theory.

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I took a class called Networks, Crowds, and Markets, um, my first

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semester, uh, sophomore year of college, and I really didn't know

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that great game theory even existed.

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I thought it was just like the theory of playing like board

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games, honestly, at the beginning.

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Um, but I was like, wow, this is just fascinating.

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I'm trying not to jump too many stages in this process, but that was

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when I thought, okay, um, cognitive science is a relatively new major

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at Cornell, where I am, I'm really interested in this game theory concept

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as well, and that's not in this major.

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How about I create an independent major?

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what you could do.

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And so I wrote a proposal to have an independent major presented it.

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And it took me a year on that process.

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basically it didn't flat out get rejected.

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It was never approved.

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Um, it was always, you know, blockchain is the true innovation.

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Um, you should study the gold standard instead.

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and then unfortunately, the man who ran the program, he passed away.

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So that's why it didn't ever get rejected, but there wasn't

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any kind of approval in sight.

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so I got back to campus this year, got a new, um, advisor and I've

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been working with her now for the whole of last semester to try and

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study it under a program called the College Scholar Program.

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so I have the application submitted and hopefully I have

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a positive outcome on this.

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but the first major I proposed was all about kind of innovation.

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under a bitcoin standard, kind of the interactions of people,

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information, and markets.

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so that was my first attempt at kind of game theory,

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cognitive science, all of that.

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but then the new one that I put together, it's a little different.

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would like to incorporate praxeology in some sense into it.

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Although, as I mentioned, I'm kind of at the beginning of my learning

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journey on all of these topics.

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but the long title that I kind of put together is kind of unhashing this

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cognitive conundrum, if you will.

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Um, how do our kind of Biases that we have, um, impact our

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ability to kind of not understand or disregard the implications of

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Bitcoin and what it could bring.

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so anyways, that was a lot and I probably didn't explain that so eloquently.

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Um, but now Bitcoin is kind of wrapped up in all elements of my

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life and something that I want to focus on, in school and ultimately

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write kind of a thesis on it as well.

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Wow, there's, there's so much to talk about, uh, there.

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Uh, I mean, first of all, first of all, praxeology is not a

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cognitive science, really.

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It's, it studies deliberate action, but it studies the action, action itself,

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and not, not really the psychological preconditions that trigger the action.

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All it says about the cognitive part is that an actor envisions a future in which

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him or her, he or she, has done an action and And that state of the future, the

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actor imagines having a little less felt uneasiness after having done the action.

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And that's the only, that's the only thing, that's like the only, um Part

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of praxeology that has anything to do with cognitive science, I guess.

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so it basically says that all action stems from the same point,

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like the same part of the brain.

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You do something deliberately because you think your life will

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be a little better if you do.

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So, if I take a sip of water here, for instance, short time

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preference stuff, I do so because I'll, um, like, I'm thinking.

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It will quench my thirst as well as prove the point and

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yeah, so I think, mm hmm, done.

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I feel a little better.

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It worked.

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Yeah,

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So could you explain kind of the connection that you're trying to

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make then between these two things, how this relates to the cognitive

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science work you're already doing?

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Yes.

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So, okay.

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For instance, um, in one of the cognitive science courses I took this past

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semester, well, first of all, I mean, the whole point of learning is to be

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exposed to things you had no idea about.

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So all of this is kind of just new to me and I sit in class and take

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notes and I just like, write myself notes like, oh, tie to Bitcoin.

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Like, that's kind of how I sit in class is my brain just always firing.

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Um, but a specific example.

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That I didn't ever know about and you know, you both probably know more on

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this than me, but just the concept of modularity and how we make decisions.

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Like, that's a very kind of central element to cognitive science in a sense.

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and so we have like, Vertical modules, like, you know,

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auditory, visual, like perception.

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and let me preface by saying modules help us combine like general intelligence,

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which is smart, but kind of slow with our reflexes, our instinct, which

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is fast, but can be kind of dumb.

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And so modules have different properties.

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with them.

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like domain specific.

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so an example of this that's presented in class is, two images of Margaret Thatcher.

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one is upside down and one is like normally presented.

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but in only some conditions, depending on the domain, do, does

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your brain kind of process or fire?

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00:13:02,698 --> 00:13:04,058
Different neurons in a certain way.

237
00:13:04,786 --> 00:13:05,126
Hang on.

238
00:13:05,146 --> 00:13:07,966
I, I don't get the example of the Margaret Thatcher picture,

239
00:13:08,239 --> 00:13:12,329
So basically, um, this is, uh, referring to the domain

240
00:13:12,329 --> 00:13:14,499
specific aspect of modularity.

241
00:13:14,989 --> 00:13:21,499
Um, and so We're so used to seeing images in a certain way.

242
00:13:21,639 --> 00:13:23,159
So that's kind of the main point.

243
00:13:23,649 --> 00:13:26,799
and when you see, so they present, sorry, it's easier with the

244
00:13:26,799 --> 00:13:31,709
visual, but when you're presented with the image upside down, you.

245
00:13:31,989 --> 00:13:34,779
Or like something does not look right about that picture.

246
00:13:34,779 --> 00:13:37,039
Like her face is a little bit disfigured.

247
00:13:37,089 --> 00:13:38,859
It's not presented normally.

248
00:13:38,889 --> 00:13:46,129
And so because it's just kind of presented in a format or you have the correct input

249
00:13:46,219 --> 00:13:51,229
in that domain, like you can, your brain can either fire in certain ways or not.

250
00:13:51,479 --> 00:13:56,999
And then once the image is presented back normally, you can see, you know,

251
00:13:57,099 --> 00:14:00,899
make a more informed decision because you're more used to it in that way.

252
00:14:01,709 --> 00:14:03,099
I don't know if I did the best job of just

253
00:14:03,389 --> 00:14:07,539
No, no, no, but it's interesting because I remember when my kids were really

254
00:14:07,539 --> 00:14:12,949
small, they did some tests to see if they were, their brain development

255
00:14:12,959 --> 00:14:17,689
was normal or something, and in some of these tests, they were asked to

256
00:14:17,689 --> 00:14:22,629
draw stuff, and I vividly remember my son drawing stuff upside down.

257
00:14:23,412 --> 00:14:28,642
and like, like it was normal and they, they, the, uh, the test, the person

258
00:14:28,712 --> 00:14:33,002
who did the test said that, uh, that is normal because kids haven't really

259
00:14:33,002 --> 00:14:38,012
developed that, you know, that kind of flipping, flipping thing that

260
00:14:38,012 --> 00:14:40,092
the brain does because the image is.

261
00:14:40,582 --> 00:14:43,012
Literally upside down when it comes into the retina.

262
00:14:43,042 --> 00:14:48,822
So, so there might be something there that really young kids do that later get fixed.

263
00:14:48,822 --> 00:14:51,012
And we has to do with perception.

264
00:14:51,012 --> 00:14:51,252
Right.

265
00:14:51,662 --> 00:14:52,492
Yeah, exactly.

266
00:14:52,492 --> 00:14:56,172
So, I guess, maybe if I try to re explain that more concisely, so,

267
00:14:56,582 --> 00:15:00,272
modules can only be certained on with different, certain kinds of inputs.

268
00:15:00,682 --> 00:15:03,802
So that's just like the first element of modularity.

269
00:15:03,802 --> 00:15:05,462
Only certain inputs can turn them on.

270
00:15:05,622 --> 00:15:09,192
And so when we have this image of Margaret Thatcher that's upside

271
00:15:09,222 --> 00:15:11,452
down, we don't really know it's her.

272
00:15:11,562 --> 00:15:14,722
We're not great at, you know, making sense of what we're seeing.

273
00:15:15,072 --> 00:15:19,942
When it's turned right side up, then we can have the correct input to turn

274
00:15:19,942 --> 00:15:21,502
on our facial recognition system.

275
00:15:22,192 --> 00:15:25,572
So maybe that's a better explanation of that.

276
00:15:25,999 --> 00:15:28,179
But kind of the second one is mandatoriness.

277
00:15:28,359 --> 00:15:34,129
Like, we don't always get a choice if we see that input kind of firing, turning on.

278
00:15:34,737 --> 00:15:38,937
so a common example that's used to describe this is if you're given,

279
00:15:38,947 --> 00:15:41,407
um, like you have to name the color.

280
00:15:41,417 --> 00:15:45,107
I don't know if you've ever seen, like you have the color or the word green.

281
00:15:45,482 --> 00:15:50,882
But it's written in red, you might say red and not like you might say the wrong

282
00:15:50,912 --> 00:15:55,202
thing just because you can't stop like the firing or the turning on of these inputs.

283
00:15:55,951 --> 00:15:56,801
And then there's encapsulation.

284
00:15:58,721 --> 00:16:00,801
So this was what I was referring to with different.

285
00:16:01,046 --> 00:16:06,666
There are lines that might be the same length but appear differently, or if

286
00:16:06,666 --> 00:16:11,306
you've ever seen, um, kind of like the table images where you might have like the

287
00:16:11,306 --> 00:16:14,236
same table but one is bigger or smaller,

288
00:16:14,749 --> 00:16:14,899
Yeah.

289
00:16:14,899 --> 00:16:16,409
I love optical illusions.

290
00:16:16,419 --> 00:16:17,589
Like, yeah, I love that.

291
00:16:18,481 --> 00:16:22,651
so basically sometimes when you're making decisions, even if you know

292
00:16:22,966 --> 00:16:26,856
Like some fact about what you're looking at, you just can't see it.

293
00:16:27,498 --> 00:16:30,328
so where I was going with all this, so these are kind of all

294
00:16:30,358 --> 00:16:35,708
elements of modules and kind of different, we have like perception,

295
00:16:35,828 --> 00:16:37,898
um, sometimes emotions as well.

296
00:16:38,312 --> 00:16:41,262
this is all impacting how we make decisions.

297
00:16:41,528 --> 00:16:42,598
this is all vertical.

298
00:16:42,738 --> 00:16:46,918
And then if I have this all right horizontally, like that all

299
00:16:46,918 --> 00:16:48,518
contributes to our decision making.

300
00:16:48,818 --> 00:16:53,558
And so just when we, you know, have that, and then all of the other human biases

301
00:16:53,578 --> 00:16:58,738
that we have, different principles all come into when we learn about Bitcoin,

302
00:16:58,778 --> 00:17:00,858
how we hear about it, how we perceive it.

303
00:17:01,335 --> 00:17:03,205
I just think that's an interesting thing.

304
00:17:03,205 --> 00:17:06,015
Like all of this is happening, like within milliseconds.

305
00:17:06,694 --> 00:17:08,294
And sometimes out of our control.

306
00:17:08,354 --> 00:17:10,844
So that's kind of the route that I'm going on.

307
00:17:10,844 --> 00:17:13,054
But I know you had a question Knut, so I'll

308
00:17:13,719 --> 00:17:16,519
No, I'm interested in how that ties into Bitcoin.

309
00:17:16,529 --> 00:17:20,339
Do you think like, because you said before that this, that they were all

310
00:17:20,339 --> 00:17:24,849
about, uh, you know, supplies, chains on the blockchain and all this bullshit.

311
00:17:25,269 --> 00:17:29,649
So why do you think it is that people have such a hard time understanding what this.

312
00:17:30,204 --> 00:17:34,584
invention or discovery is and why it's so confusing to people.

313
00:17:34,584 --> 00:17:38,064
Does it have anything to do with this modularity thing that they,

314
00:17:38,464 --> 00:17:44,514
they, they can't see it for what it is because it's so new and so, well,

315
00:17:44,564 --> 00:17:48,084
all the concepts are known, but put together, they form this new thing.

316
00:17:48,114 --> 00:17:50,894
So is that, is that what the thesis is about?

317
00:17:51,264 --> 00:17:54,284
So, and this is where I have to say no, not exactly.

318
00:17:54,344 --> 00:17:57,034
I think it's also hugely culturally dependent.

319
00:17:57,574 --> 00:17:59,559
Like how Okay.

320
00:17:59,559 --> 00:18:01,859
I have a lot of different theories on this and my brain

321
00:18:01,859 --> 00:18:02,929
is kind of all over the place.

322
00:18:03,969 --> 00:18:06,599
Um, but so, okay.

323
00:18:06,629 --> 00:18:08,889
One, I think it's hugely culturally dependent.

324
00:18:08,909 --> 00:18:10,989
Like how close are you to the problem?

325
00:18:11,049 --> 00:18:13,169
Like what are your pain points that you're feeling?

326
00:18:13,639 --> 00:18:14,189
That's one.

327
00:18:14,696 --> 00:18:19,566
you know, if you're in the West or like, if you're me, there's different, you know,

328
00:18:19,626 --> 00:18:24,546
invisible, visible barriers, you know, the media that you're presented with, um,

329
00:18:24,636 --> 00:18:28,286
thinking that you have to buy the whole Bitcoin, like there's a lot of You know,

330
00:18:28,356 --> 00:18:29,956
different things that can influence.

331
00:18:30,299 --> 00:18:34,679
I kind of have a thought on like sometimes with consciousness and the quintillion

332
00:18:34,679 --> 00:18:38,969
effect, like maybe, and this kind of goes to the problems and the pain points, like

333
00:18:39,399 --> 00:18:43,899
we know if you're further away from the money printer, then you feel the effects,

334
00:18:44,269 --> 00:18:45,859
you know, of the money printer more.

335
00:18:46,639 --> 00:18:50,609
You feel that pain in a greater sense, but I think in like the reverse way,

336
00:18:50,629 --> 00:18:54,954
perhaps, if you're not present, if you don't feel that pain, you can be More

337
00:18:54,994 --> 00:18:56,854
unconscious to what's going around.

338
00:18:56,984 --> 00:19:00,394
So the closer you are to the money printer, maybe you have an increased

339
00:19:00,584 --> 00:19:03,834
lack of awareness, lack of conscious on some consciousness on something.

340
00:19:04,214 --> 00:19:08,874
So I'm not at all saying this concept of modularity or, you

341
00:19:08,874 --> 00:19:12,304
know, availability, anchoring, representative biases and heuristics.

342
00:19:13,084 --> 00:19:15,674
Like this is why people don't understand Bitcoin.

343
00:19:15,684 --> 00:19:17,014
I don't think it's that simple.

344
00:19:17,378 --> 00:19:20,778
I just find it interesting to explore all of the different.

345
00:19:21,018 --> 00:19:23,758
There's so many things that we, that could be going on that contribute.

346
00:19:24,358 --> 00:19:27,138
I don't think it's just one thing, um, but I think there's many

347
00:19:27,308 --> 00:19:28,508
different things contributing.

348
00:19:28,871 --> 00:19:29,121
Yeah.

349
00:19:29,121 --> 00:19:34,651
And How does the, our inability to understand exponentials play into all

350
00:19:34,651 --> 00:19:39,461
of this, because like that's, that's a thing I've been, I talked to Jeff about

351
00:19:39,481 --> 00:19:44,631
a lot, like how most people just Just can't think in exponentials, and it is

352
00:19:44,631 --> 00:19:49,871
hard, but most people definitely don't have an intuition for exponentials.

353
00:19:50,641 --> 00:19:55,011
Yeah, actually, I was talking to my mom about this this morning, um, because

354
00:19:55,011 --> 00:20:00,561
we were talking about, like, a mutual, you know, point that, well, there was

355
00:20:00,591 --> 00:20:04,541
something on the TV about the price of Bitcoin and just, people just don't even

356
00:20:04,541 --> 00:20:08,764
realize, And I'm trying to think, I made a statement like, you know, you can't

357
00:20:08,834 --> 00:20:13,004
price Bitcoin accurately because you can't price the network, um, and to your point

358
00:20:13,024 --> 00:20:18,334
on exponentials, like the network and the more nodes we have in the network and the

359
00:20:18,334 --> 00:20:24,534
more, um, connections that are formed, all of that, I think, grows to your point at

360
00:20:24,534 --> 00:20:27,284
an exponential rate or exponential growth.

361
00:20:27,704 --> 00:20:28,034
Yeah.

362
00:20:28,174 --> 00:20:29,014
And so.

363
00:20:29,524 --> 00:20:32,334
Like, I don't know, sorry, I kind of lost my train of thought where I was

364
00:20:32,334 --> 00:20:36,411
precisely going with this, but, I think it's hugely, you know, that's something

365
00:20:36,411 --> 00:20:40,921
else that we don't consider and shows up in many different areas in life and

366
00:20:40,921 --> 00:20:42,471
how we think about Bitcoin as well.

367
00:20:42,888 --> 00:20:46,074
where I was going with this was, Metcalfe's Law, which says that

368
00:20:46,084 --> 00:20:50,674
the value of a communications network is, uh, uh, the, it's

369
00:20:50,684 --> 00:20:53,004
num, the number of users squared.

370
00:20:53,514 --> 00:20:55,224
which means it's exponential.

371
00:20:55,484 --> 00:20:58,764
Uh, and, and Bitcoin is a communications network.

372
00:20:59,294 --> 00:21:04,544
So, so the, the price not going up exponentially is just a lag, really.

373
00:21:04,968 --> 00:21:12,876
with each new user, the, the, uh, The network gets way, way, way better than

374
00:21:12,876 --> 00:21:17,233
we think it does, first and foremost, most, it's a communications network,

375
00:21:17,303 --> 00:21:19,033
uh, because it's all information.

376
00:21:19,939 --> 00:21:21,389
that's where I was going with it.

377
00:21:21,778 --> 00:21:22,038
Yeah.

378
00:21:22,208 --> 00:21:22,578
Yes.

379
00:21:22,948 --> 00:21:26,608
No, I think you're exactly right there, but I also think

380
00:21:26,668 --> 00:21:29,378
not everyone will get there.

381
00:21:29,468 --> 00:21:32,688
Like, not everyone will go down the rabbit hole as far as that.

382
00:21:32,828 --> 00:21:33,558
Which is okay.

383
00:21:33,828 --> 00:21:34,238
Okay.

384
00:21:34,678 --> 00:21:39,498
Um, like most of my friends, like, you know, you have this quote,

385
00:21:39,498 --> 00:21:42,438
like Bitcoin isn't the signal, but it's the greatest noise remover.

386
00:21:42,568 --> 00:21:50,208
And I love that because I think for me, like I, before Bitcoin, I sort of

387
00:21:50,208 --> 00:21:54,771
mentioned this, I was really interested in AI and ethics and, you know, how is it

388
00:21:54,771 --> 00:21:57,251
possible that AI could exhibit empathy?

389
00:21:57,311 --> 00:21:59,141
Is that a possibility?

390
00:21:59,751 --> 00:22:03,531
But then I found Bitcoin, I was like, no, this is what I, I have

391
00:22:03,531 --> 00:22:07,181
to think about and work on and spend my energy on and studying.

392
00:22:07,681 --> 00:22:12,011
And so for me, you know, Bitcoin has been the greatest noise remover,

393
00:22:12,071 --> 00:22:16,098
but in a sense, it's, I don't know, maybe it's my personal guiding signal

394
00:22:16,098 --> 00:22:19,178
of where I want to put my energy, but not everyone needs to do that.

395
00:22:19,238 --> 00:22:20,098
And that's great.

396
00:22:20,148 --> 00:22:24,418
Like Bitcoin just allows you to put your time and energy on what you want to do.

397
00:22:24,468 --> 00:22:27,398
And I think that's something my generation needs to know.

398
00:22:27,538 --> 00:22:31,958
Like, you know, you can actually, you know, seek a prize that you want, like is.

399
00:22:32,593 --> 00:22:35,663
You know, the job that everyone, the society tells you is the best

400
00:22:35,683 --> 00:22:38,863
thing to get, you know, did you really choose that for yourself?

401
00:22:38,903 --> 00:22:42,803
Is that the prize that you want to devote your life to trying to win?

402
00:22:43,073 --> 00:22:46,679
So I don't know if that directly follows up with what you were saying, but I

403
00:22:46,689 --> 00:22:50,249
just think that's an interesting touch point with my generation in particular,

404
00:22:50,439 --> 00:22:53,079
um, that, you know, what is Bitcoin?

405
00:22:53,089 --> 00:22:55,869
Like it's not just money, it's so much more and it can just allow you to

406
00:22:55,869 --> 00:22:57,679
live the life that you want to live.

407
00:22:58,243 --> 00:22:58,863
No, love it.

408
00:22:58,893 --> 00:23:03,433
And love that you picked up on that quote because it's quite a recent quote.

409
00:23:03,833 --> 00:23:10,343
Um, yeah, I think, like, uh, explaining, like, the, the, the, the deeper

410
00:23:10,343 --> 00:23:16,743
philosophical points to newbies, uh, the easiest way to do that is to, to ask

411
00:23:16,743 --> 00:23:22,203
really basic questions, or like, it's the same with, uh, you know, consensualism

412
00:23:22,203 --> 00:23:25,233
or libertarian, uh, thought tradition.

413
00:23:25,233 --> 00:23:28,993
Like, ask them, for instance, what, what, what do you prefer, uh,

414
00:23:30,103 --> 00:23:36,228
mutually consensual Interactions between people or forceful, coerced

415
00:23:36,238 --> 00:23:37,688
interactions between people.

416
00:23:38,228 --> 00:23:41,928
And when you post a question like that, it's like, it's

417
00:23:41,928 --> 00:23:43,378
kind of obvious that one is.

418
00:23:44,238 --> 00:23:49,878
Inherently better than the other, and more preferable, and like, well, Bitcoin

419
00:23:49,888 --> 00:23:54,108
is a system that doesn't allow coerced interactions, it's all consensual, it's

420
00:23:54,108 --> 00:24:00,282
all voluntary, and when people realize that, I think that like, that's a good

421
00:24:00,282 --> 00:24:04,282
route to go, and then you get all the other noob questions, but what about,

422
00:24:04,712 --> 00:24:08,992
how do you pay taxes, and how do you, well, I can't use it in the supermarket

423
00:24:08,992 --> 00:24:13,987
and all that, but well, Don't worry about that now, like, try to get, try

424
00:24:14,017 --> 00:24:19,327
to get, grasp this novel idea first of a system that doesn't allow for coercion.

425
00:24:20,070 --> 00:24:20,490
I love that.

426
00:24:20,490 --> 00:24:21,370
I might have to steal that.

427
00:24:21,590 --> 00:24:26,840
Um, and I think another thing that you've mentioned before and that I

428
00:24:26,850 --> 00:24:31,495
felt in myself is that You know, it gives you a sense of agency back.

429
00:24:31,505 --> 00:24:33,875
It lets you just control what you think about.

430
00:24:33,935 --> 00:24:39,005
And I'm very lucky right now that I get to have this time to focus on this.

431
00:24:39,265 --> 00:24:44,995
Like I think not everyone just has, you know, to touch on the show, the freedom

432
00:24:45,025 --> 00:24:49,475
to pursue this thought and to have, you know, these conversations about

433
00:24:49,515 --> 00:24:51,795
thinking like not everyone can do that.

434
00:24:51,795 --> 00:24:53,305
And you've made this point a lot.

435
00:24:53,355 --> 00:24:56,415
Um, so that's something else to just be aware of and acknowledge.

436
00:24:56,710 --> 00:24:57,020
as well.

437
00:24:57,889 --> 00:25:01,509
Alright, you might have noticed that we've recently partnered with AmberApp.

438
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,130
After our episode with Izzy, their CEO, and our close friend, we knew we

439
00:25:06,130 --> 00:25:09,534
would have to partner with them in some way, If you haven't seen our episode

440
00:25:09,534 --> 00:25:13,624
with Izzy, definitely go check it out, you'll see why it's such a great fit,

441
00:25:13,874 --> 00:25:17,804
and honestly, they're following the orange glowing light like Izzy always

442
00:25:17,804 --> 00:25:21,894
says, and that's exactly what we try to do here at the Freedom Footprint Show.

443
00:25:22,219 --> 00:25:24,558
The big news about AmberApp is that they're going to be

444
00:25:24,558 --> 00:25:26,368
launching their version 2.

445
00:25:26,585 --> 00:25:30,095
I've seen some of the screenshots and it looks fantastic.

446
00:25:30,390 --> 00:25:34,201
They're going to be including a non custodial on chain wallet, an

447
00:25:34,221 --> 00:25:38,472
anonymous lightning wallet, a fiat wallet, And finally, it's going

448
00:25:38,472 --> 00:25:39,812
to be an exchange, of course.

449
00:25:40,053 --> 00:25:42,955
it's going to be just this super app,  They're also going

450
00:25:42,955 --> 00:25:44,305
to be launching globally.

451
00:25:44,325 --> 00:25:45,875
Everyone's going to be able to use it.

452
00:25:46,115 --> 00:25:47,845
we're really excited about all that.

453
00:25:47,975 --> 00:25:50,615
Stay tuned with us and you'll hear all about it.

454
00:25:50,815 --> 00:25:53,165
And for now, check out their website, amber.

455
00:25:53,415 --> 00:25:56,125
app and the episode with Izzy to find out more.

456
00:25:56,694 --> 00:26:00,594
So, so what, what would you say you're doing to increase your

457
00:26:01,194 --> 00:26:02,904
individual freedom footprint?

458
00:26:03,264 --> 00:26:07,384
Uh, like what's, what's the, uh, what's the biggest thing you do to do that?

459
00:26:07,754 --> 00:26:08,624
Exactly that.

460
00:26:09,994 --> 00:26:13,484
And I think the biggest thing, it's not maybe what I have done,

461
00:26:13,484 --> 00:26:17,134
but what I like going into this year, what I'm focusing on.

462
00:26:17,284 --> 00:26:22,604
Um, and it's, so I guess something that, you know, Jeff Booth said this and I've

463
00:26:22,604 --> 00:26:26,894
just really been thinking about it is where am I spending my energy and my time,

464
00:26:26,944 --> 00:26:28,774
like in what system and I doing that.

465
00:26:29,364 --> 00:26:32,774
And so I'm not personally big on New Year's resolutions.

466
00:26:32,904 --> 00:26:35,184
I kind of, I picked this up a couple of years ago where I

467
00:26:35,244 --> 00:26:36,734
just more picked like a word.

468
00:26:37,674 --> 00:26:41,944
And so last year, I think my word was active, or it was active, um,

469
00:26:42,194 --> 00:26:46,234
and this year I've chosen, I think quality is what I've landed on.

470
00:26:46,384 --> 00:26:51,144
And so just being more conscious, like to increase my freedom, what am I doing?

471
00:26:51,624 --> 00:26:55,724
Being more conscious of what I consume, where I spend my time.

472
00:26:56,014 --> 00:26:57,994
What does my day to day look like?

473
00:26:58,205 --> 00:27:03,805
and so going into this year, but I am starting a Bitcoin club at school.

474
00:27:04,037 --> 00:27:06,047
so, you know, that's one realm.

475
00:27:06,077 --> 00:27:07,907
Obviously I have my new.

476
00:27:08,127 --> 00:27:08,517
major.

477
00:27:08,517 --> 00:27:12,447
If it gets approved or not, you know, I still have my book list and,

478
00:27:12,457 --> 00:27:15,917
you know, different kinds of things that I want to read and learn about.

479
00:27:16,104 --> 00:27:20,704
and so I guess just at every level in the small decision and the big decision,

480
00:27:20,704 --> 00:27:25,264
just being much more purposeful of, you know, how I'm using my time, what I'm

481
00:27:25,264 --> 00:27:27,239
focusing on, where my energy is going.

482
00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:31,060
and then, you know, trying to spread the message with people around me.

483
00:27:31,100 --> 00:27:33,890
So to help increase their freedom footprint as well,

484
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:35,650
you know, just what can I do?

485
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,440
And like, I'm starting the Bitcoin club at school and like the local community and

486
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,654
the people that I care about, you know, and my family and my friends, all of that.

487
00:27:43,654 --> 00:27:46,784
So it's kind of in every decision and just how you think about

488
00:27:46,894 --> 00:27:48,124
living your day to day life.

489
00:27:48,751 --> 00:27:51,361
That's a great answer because the flip side of the freedom

490
00:27:51,361 --> 00:27:53,221
coin is responsibility, right?

491
00:27:53,301 --> 00:27:56,841
So what you're really doing is taking responsibility for your own actions.

492
00:27:57,465 --> 00:27:58,817
I would say that is freedom.

493
00:27:58,917 --> 00:28:02,017
Like if you're able to do that, then you're free.

494
00:28:02,747 --> 00:28:07,077
If you're free to choose to, to take care of your own life, then you're free.

495
00:28:08,027 --> 00:28:08,967
And vice versa.

496
00:28:09,635 --> 00:28:13,785
So, so, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm interested to hear a little bit more about what

497
00:28:13,835 --> 00:28:18,755
you're doing as, as far as, because part of what you're, you put out on,

498
00:28:18,775 --> 00:28:22,695
on Twitter and everything is the Gen Z ness of, of all this and, uh, this

499
00:28:22,725 --> 00:28:24,175
education initiative and everything.

500
00:28:24,580 --> 00:28:28,620
So I'm curious about, uh, you've already explained a little bit

501
00:28:28,670 --> 00:28:33,300
about the impacts of, of the financial system on your generation.

502
00:28:33,300 --> 00:28:34,260
And I can empathize.

503
00:28:34,260 --> 00:28:39,820
I'm kind of a young millennial, so sort of close to Gen Z, not quite,

504
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:45,645
but I guess, I guess the main thing is, how are you seeing adoption

505
00:28:45,665 --> 00:28:48,105
of Bitcoin by younger people?

506
00:28:48,105 --> 00:28:56,555
Is, is it, uh, is, is there any part of the sort of cultural landscape right

507
00:28:56,555 --> 00:29:01,425
now where all of the other struggles that GenZed is going through, uh, uh,

508
00:29:01,435 --> 00:29:05,405
making, Making life a little bit more difficult in lots of other ways, how

509
00:29:05,405 --> 00:29:09,675
are you finding the effect of, of, yeah, the whole cultural landscape on

510
00:29:09,675 --> 00:29:11,655
how younger people approach Bitcoin?

511
00:29:12,565 --> 00:29:12,845
Yeah.

512
00:29:12,945 --> 00:29:16,985
And again, I think it comes back to, you know, the cultural

513
00:29:16,985 --> 00:29:18,465
impacts that have on this.

514
00:29:18,645 --> 00:29:23,702
Um, so for instance, I was just in Ghana at the Africa Bitcoin Conference,

515
00:29:23,702 --> 00:29:24,935
which I was very grateful to go to.

516
00:29:25,325 --> 00:29:27,105
And I love that there are so many students there.

517
00:29:27,165 --> 00:29:30,235
I guess I wasn't really expecting that, but there were tons of students.

518
00:29:30,295 --> 00:29:32,815
I mean, they probably made up a big chunk of the audience.

519
00:29:33,175 --> 00:29:34,475
Perhaps I can say that.

520
00:29:34,965 --> 00:29:36,465
Um, and.

521
00:29:36,950 --> 00:29:41,810
I think there's much more excitement about Bitcoin, or I felt more excitement

522
00:29:41,810 --> 00:29:47,220
from them about Bitcoin and using Bitcoin there than I did back at school.

523
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:52,400
I think a lot of people in my generation right now are much more

524
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:57,600
focused on blockchain, on crypto, and actually was having conversation

525
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,160
with someone maybe two days ago.

526
00:29:59,990 --> 00:30:02,940
And they're like, Oh, but I want to buy one of the cheaper coins.

527
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,640
Like I can't, I get, I can't buy a full Bitcoin.

528
00:30:07,230 --> 00:30:10,190
And so there's a couple of points I guess I'd want to make here.

529
00:30:10,250 --> 00:30:15,030
Um, most people don't know the concept of Satoshis.

530
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,960
They don't know that there's a hundred million Satoshis in one

531
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,690
Bitcoin that you don't have to buy, um, the entire coin at once.

532
00:30:23,290 --> 00:30:24,300
So that's just kind of a.

533
00:30:24,505 --> 00:30:26,435
Baseline thing that a lot of people don't realize.

534
00:30:26,973 --> 00:30:32,783
but I think also right now in my generation, and I felt this too, it's

535
00:30:32,783 --> 00:30:36,363
kind of like this pressure of, I don't have time to think about saving for

536
00:30:36,363 --> 00:30:38,873
the future, my finances right now.

537
00:30:38,933 --> 00:30:42,973
Like I'll think about that once I'm, you know, get my first or second

538
00:30:42,993 --> 00:30:45,323
paycheck in my first real job.

539
00:30:45,413 --> 00:30:47,053
Like right now.

540
00:30:47,343 --> 00:30:51,713
I would say my people are much more focused on, um, what internship

541
00:30:51,713 --> 00:30:53,013
am I going to have this summer?

542
00:30:53,013 --> 00:30:55,553
You know, my classes, my grades right now.

543
00:30:56,528 --> 00:31:00,448
So, a lot of people, I don't know if a lot of people my age are

544
00:31:00,448 --> 00:31:01,878
really thinking about this yet.

545
00:31:02,318 --> 00:31:06,838
And not totally to their fault because we don't teach, you know, financial

546
00:31:06,838 --> 00:31:08,768
or economic literacy in schools.

547
00:31:09,369 --> 00:31:13,499
and so unless you have parents, like I give all the credit to my parents

548
00:31:13,659 --> 00:31:18,569
for talking to me about these concepts and saying, you know, Ella, this is

549
00:31:18,569 --> 00:31:21,609
really something you should have on your mind and consider and think about.

550
00:31:21,742 --> 00:31:25,682
Like I had, I think my first paycheck when I was, I don't know, 14, 15.

551
00:31:26,092 --> 00:31:30,142
And like, that's when we had the conversation of, you

552
00:31:30,142 --> 00:31:31,402
know, maybe it's your money.

553
00:31:31,402 --> 00:31:34,682
You work for this, but, you know, we just want to present you with, you

554
00:31:34,682 --> 00:31:37,142
know, maybe you should save some of this, like walk me through the process.

555
00:31:37,362 --> 00:31:38,362
But not everyone has that.

556
00:31:39,022 --> 00:31:43,292
So to answer your question, Luke, on what is the state of my generation in

557
00:31:43,292 --> 00:31:45,925
this, How aware are you of the problems?

558
00:31:46,005 --> 00:31:48,455
Like, how much are you personally feeling the problems?

559
00:31:49,055 --> 00:31:51,165
What are your friends talking about?

560
00:31:51,175 --> 00:31:53,165
What is your family talking about?

561
00:31:53,175 --> 00:31:55,195
Where are you geographically located?

562
00:31:55,265 --> 00:31:57,085
I think all of that matters.

563
00:31:57,831 --> 00:31:59,291
like those are just some of the initial

564
00:32:01,892 --> 00:32:08,537
uh, Satoshi Or, or indeed a bitcoin, is that people don't realize that it's not

565
00:32:08,687 --> 00:32:13,807
just data, it's not just information on the internet, it's something, it's

566
00:32:13,817 --> 00:32:19,307
something more, and, and all data on the internet can be copied, and will be copied

567
00:32:19,307 --> 00:32:24,327
at some point, including all the data in bitcoin, and all the shitcoins, they

568
00:32:24,327 --> 00:32:29,997
can all be copied, and they can all be infinitely, you know, inflated to shit.

569
00:32:30,157 --> 00:32:30,907
And they will be.

570
00:32:31,417 --> 00:32:34,087
The only thing you cannot copy is a satoshi, because a

571
00:32:34,087 --> 00:32:36,447
satoshi is more than just data.

572
00:32:36,507 --> 00:32:40,677
It's, it's, it's something that lives within your head, and it's, it's a part

573
00:32:40,687 --> 00:32:46,807
of the network, and being a part of the network is, you are the part, you are

574
00:32:46,807 --> 00:32:52,187
the satoshi, and the part, the part of the network that the satoshi represents.

575
00:32:52,277 --> 00:32:55,387
You are that thing, because everything you're doing is keeping

576
00:32:55,387 --> 00:32:56,627
a secret from other people.

577
00:32:57,252 --> 00:33:00,362
And the only thing you can do with a Satoshi is move it around in the

578
00:33:00,362 --> 00:33:04,002
network, within the network, you can't move it outside, you can't take it with

579
00:33:04,012 --> 00:33:08,612
you to school, you can't, you can't do anything with it, except move it

580
00:33:08,682 --> 00:33:14,332
around in the network, uh, and tell other people, you can give other people

581
00:33:14,882 --> 00:33:18,512
the ability to move it around too, that's another thing you can do, but

582
00:33:18,652 --> 00:33:22,442
that's unadvisable, it's better to send it to them, but that's unadvisable.

583
00:33:23,612 --> 00:33:27,482
But still, I think this is the greatest misconception, and I find

584
00:33:27,482 --> 00:33:31,297
it so fascinating that there are so many people That heard about crypto

585
00:33:31,297 --> 00:33:36,182
and blockchain technology, but know nothing about Bitcoin, because it's

586
00:33:36,352 --> 00:33:43,801
so strange, like, it's, if you hear about, you know, Goodyear tires before

587
00:33:43,801 --> 00:33:53,017
you hear, hear of circles, or, you know what I mean, uh, it's very weird, uh,

588
00:33:53,787 --> 00:33:58,957
lot of people that I, or how they're also presented to it is, okay, you

589
00:33:58,957 --> 00:34:02,587
know, Bitcoin was the first, but there were some issues and now we've made

590
00:34:02,587 --> 00:34:04,307
all these others that are better.

591
00:34:04,407 --> 00:34:07,967
And like, you never, you're never satisfied with the first thing, but

592
00:34:08,317 --> 00:34:10,107
did they get their information from?

593
00:34:10,107 --> 00:34:11,002
I don't know.

594
00:34:11,237 --> 00:34:14,017
obviously we know that's just not accurate.

595
00:34:14,169 --> 00:34:18,109
and I also think just talking to different friends at school and different, and

596
00:34:18,469 --> 00:34:21,319
you know, friends not even at school, just friends from different parts of my

597
00:34:21,319 --> 00:34:27,869
life, I think the ones that understand it the most are the ones that, you

598
00:34:27,869 --> 00:34:32,099
know, have the opportunity to travel or their family is not from the US or

599
00:34:32,189 --> 00:34:37,009
they are really interested in history or like all of the, you know, topics

600
00:34:37,009 --> 00:34:42,284
or majors that are not like math or CS, I think seem to get it more.

601
00:34:42,485 --> 00:34:44,225
and that's another thing with learning Bitcoin.

602
00:34:44,335 --> 00:34:49,665
Like it's not just that you read the white paper or maybe it is, but for

603
00:34:49,665 --> 00:34:51,035
me, it wasn't reading the white paper.

604
00:34:51,035 --> 00:34:53,295
It was like, Oh my gosh, like I fully appreciate Bitcoin.

605
00:34:53,385 --> 00:34:59,015
It's learning everything else that I think also enriches, your belief on Bitcoin and

606
00:34:59,015 --> 00:35:02,965
how you understand it and interact with it that also contributes and matters.

607
00:35:03,085 --> 00:35:05,775
And again, a lot of people in my generation, you go to

608
00:35:05,775 --> 00:35:07,755
school, you have your one major.

609
00:35:07,905 --> 00:35:11,925
And sure, they encourage learning about taking random classes, learning

610
00:35:11,925 --> 00:35:16,015
about different things, but most of your focus is in one area.

611
00:35:16,245 --> 00:35:22,525
And I think, you know, I even fall into this also in my day to day.

612
00:35:22,585 --> 00:35:25,905
Like, I try and set time each day to just think.

613
00:35:26,820 --> 00:35:29,210
Sometimes I don't follow through on that.

614
00:35:29,748 --> 00:35:33,088
but there's just also so many demands on your time.

615
00:35:33,148 --> 00:35:36,648
And, you know, you, you go to class, you just listen to what the professor says,

616
00:35:37,128 --> 00:35:40,576
you take notes, and then you're like on to one activity to the next to the next.

617
00:35:40,576 --> 00:35:43,998
And when are you thinking and processing and absorbing what you've learned?

618
00:35:44,528 --> 00:35:45,913
And then are you even?

619
00:35:46,073 --> 00:35:50,923
Doing that because I think another huge effect is social media and I never

620
00:35:50,923 --> 00:35:53,633
had social media like before Twitter.

621
00:35:54,023 --> 00:35:58,313
Um, I never had Instagram, never had Snapchat and something that I

622
00:35:58,313 --> 00:36:01,563
don't think we can study yet, but that would be interesting to look at

623
00:36:01,603 --> 00:36:05,403
is what is the effect of, you know, just scrolling and all the short term

624
00:36:05,573 --> 00:36:10,713
content and just reinforcing high time preference in, you know, information.

625
00:36:10,723 --> 00:36:14,583
Like how do we start to prioritize sticking to a hard problem?

626
00:36:14,913 --> 00:36:19,553
Like more long form content as well, you know, thinking not instant gratification.

627
00:36:19,673 --> 00:36:22,903
So I don't know where I was going with that, but I think that's another big

628
00:36:22,913 --> 00:36:27,443
thing that affects my generation and how we come to understand Bitcoin as well.

629
00:36:27,975 --> 00:36:30,165
Well, it's definitely done something to our brains.

630
00:36:30,165 --> 00:36:33,885
I mean, even I get stuck with reels sometimes.

631
00:36:33,885 --> 00:36:39,225
If I start like looking at YouTube and, and, uh, after I watched, uh, a

632
00:36:39,225 --> 00:36:43,665
Bitcoin podcast, I get suggestions for reels and, and I just get stuck in it.

633
00:36:43,965 --> 00:36:47,745
And I, I get why it's so addictive to especially kids with that.

634
00:36:47,745 --> 00:36:49,120
They're just hypnotized by it.

635
00:36:49,580 --> 00:36:56,860
by these short dopamine hit thingies, and it damages your other attention

636
00:36:56,860 --> 00:37:00,870
span, because like, I can't watch a movie anymore, like, I find it very hard, and

637
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,930
the movie needs to be really, really, really fucking excellent for me, in order

638
00:37:04,930 --> 00:37:10,640
for me to To be glued enough to the, to the same screen, like I'm so used to

639
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:15,380
multitasking and flipping and flipping and flopping between tabs and stuff.

640
00:37:15,590 --> 00:37:20,810
So yeah, I find, I, I think my, the attention part of my brain has

641
00:37:20,860 --> 00:37:23,520
definitely changed the last 10 years.

642
00:37:24,161 --> 00:37:28,161
just another thing kind of when you're talking about the different majors, uh,

643
00:37:28,891 --> 00:37:32,301
I guess one question I have, because, because you're, you're, you're obviously

644
00:37:32,301 --> 00:37:36,951
in the, uh, the traditional education system, so to say, and, and through to

645
00:37:36,961 --> 00:37:41,131
university and all this, you're, you're doing everything right as per the, the,

646
00:37:41,261 --> 00:37:45,991
what the system over the last hundred odd years is supposed to be, right?

647
00:37:46,141 --> 00:37:47,856
Do you think this system is going to change?

648
00:37:48,106 --> 00:37:51,176
Still continuing to be relevant into the future.

649
00:37:51,861 --> 00:37:53,071
No, no, I don't think so.

650
00:37:53,447 --> 00:37:56,907
I, yeah, like daily, my mom asks me to drop out.

651
00:37:57,627 --> 00:38:04,847
Um, and, uh, Anyways, no, I don't think it's not, maybe not daily, but I don't,

652
00:38:04,847 --> 00:38:07,077
I think it will have a big change.

653
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,930
maybe I'm wrong in this belief, but I feel like where I, the age I am, where

654
00:38:11,930 --> 00:38:15,850
I am, I'm sort of at this, like, I don't know, maybe we're at like a tipping

655
00:38:15,850 --> 00:38:17,950
point of where things will change.

656
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,780
Um, I don't know, I feel like I'm at the end of how this model has

657
00:38:21,790 --> 00:38:24,940
traditionally worked, but maybe just a little too early for how this

658
00:38:24,940 --> 00:38:27,295
model Will work like a lot of jobs.

659
00:38:27,555 --> 00:38:31,105
You still need a college degree, I think increasingly less than Bitcoin,

660
00:38:31,105 --> 00:38:33,825
but it is a reality that you do.

661
00:38:34,255 --> 00:38:40,615
Um, and of course, like I still do find a lot of benefit in my education, like.

662
00:38:40,830 --> 00:38:44,940
I still learn things I never, you know, would have known had I not been

663
00:38:44,940 --> 00:38:49,830
in that classroom, but then also I learn tons from Bitcoiners on Twitter.

664
00:38:49,980 --> 00:38:54,610
You know, you both, your podcasts, like there's so much information out there.

665
00:38:54,620 --> 00:38:59,710
Again, talking about connectivity, um, you know, YouTube has a lot of great

666
00:38:59,730 --> 00:39:01,320
talking with people across the world.

667
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,020
Like I think all of those things are just as valuable.

668
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,910
so no, I think the education model will change.

669
00:39:08,150 --> 00:39:08,680
A lot.

670
00:39:08,860 --> 00:39:10,370
And I think that's a good thing.

671
00:39:10,510 --> 00:39:15,440
Um, because, you know, just like I think energy should be fundamental,

672
00:39:15,580 --> 00:39:18,650
you know, human right, everyone should have equitable access to energy.

673
00:39:19,010 --> 00:39:20,150
So should education.

674
00:39:20,300 --> 00:39:25,470
But right now, it's just a mass filtering system of only like certain people

675
00:39:25,470 --> 00:39:27,180
getting to walk through certain doors.

676
00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:31,785
And I mean, I just think everyone should have Equal access to education

677
00:39:31,785 --> 00:39:34,905
and, you know, even all the paywalls for different academic journals.

678
00:39:34,905 --> 00:39:38,415
And I feel like that's a whole nother conversation because now it's a

679
00:39:38,415 --> 00:39:41,315
lot of like plagiarism coming out and how ethical is a lot of this.

680
00:39:41,515 --> 00:39:43,205
Um, but no, I think it'll change.

681
00:39:43,809 --> 00:39:47,159
that ties into praxeology and Austrian economics as well, and

682
00:39:47,159 --> 00:39:49,069
how bullshitty copyright laws are.

683
00:39:49,119 --> 00:39:54,329
And the concept of intellectual property is weird from the beginning.

684
00:39:54,329 --> 00:39:55,339
It should never have been.

685
00:39:56,579 --> 00:40:02,930
The concept of owning a thought is just wrong in every Every way.

686
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,760
And, uh, so if we lived in a pure, consensualist society, that wouldn't

687
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:09,720
exist, and information would be free.

688
00:40:10,164 --> 00:40:16,014
so, uh, from the Rothbardian angle, like, uh, that would be solved.

689
00:40:16,365 --> 00:40:16,585
Yeah.

690
00:40:16,585 --> 00:40:21,535
And I think for me again, yes, I've gotten benefit out of my education,

691
00:40:21,545 --> 00:40:25,605
the different professors, you know, that are there and the community of

692
00:40:25,615 --> 00:40:30,085
people, like, it's really nice to talk to people about different ideas to make

693
00:40:30,085 --> 00:40:31,705
friends across different disciplines.

694
00:40:31,775 --> 00:40:34,635
And that's really hard to create in a virtual environment.

695
00:40:35,270 --> 00:40:39,040
I guess during COVID, I had a little bit different of an experience

696
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:43,290
because COVID happened when I was doing a year abroad in Beijing.

697
00:40:43,370 --> 00:40:44,610
And so I had.

698
00:40:45,285 --> 00:40:48,885
Kind of professors and then I came back and was enrolled in kind of like my

699
00:40:48,895 --> 00:40:53,275
homeschool and I was also taking classes online in a different school, so I had a

700
00:40:53,275 --> 00:40:58,019
lot of connection all over the place, but I think on the whole, when you're learning

701
00:40:58,019 --> 00:41:02,739
in a virtual environment, you miss that kind of collective community effort of

702
00:41:02,819 --> 00:41:07,149
talking about different ideas and how someone else is engaging with topics.

703
00:41:07,179 --> 00:41:10,889
So I do think there is a value to kind of learning with.

704
00:41:11,159 --> 00:41:17,055
Others, but also like it's a, like to the filtering system, like the greatest

705
00:41:17,065 --> 00:41:21,815
benefit I think out of all of this college degree is like, oh, well, Ella just got

706
00:41:21,815 --> 00:41:26,885
through the filter of an IV, but I don't think that that, you know, whatever

707
00:41:26,885 --> 00:41:28,789
you want to call that really will hold.

708
00:41:28,930 --> 00:41:29,529
in the future.

709
00:41:30,070 --> 00:41:33,450
Um, I really like the ideas in Bitcoin about how it's more of

710
00:41:33,460 --> 00:41:35,320
like a meritocracy proof of work.

711
00:41:35,340 --> 00:41:36,980
Like, did you actually study?

712
00:41:36,990 --> 00:41:38,890
Did you actually do the work yourself?

713
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,853
and I, I hope we see more of that also going into the future.

714
00:41:43,274 --> 00:41:47,554
I absolutely loved that when I got into Bitcoin because like, uh, all of my fiat

715
00:41:47,784 --> 00:41:52,804
life, it was all, like in every, in every fiat job and in every fiat institution

716
00:41:52,804 --> 00:41:57,434
I was ever in, like these titles mattered more than, than anything else.

717
00:41:57,599 --> 00:42:02,339
and it felt so wrong and so weird, like, like, why aren't you listening to me?

718
00:42:02,469 --> 00:42:03,939
Or why aren't you listening to this guy?

719
00:42:03,939 --> 00:42:06,839
It seems, or, or why aren't you listening to her?

720
00:42:06,849 --> 00:42:08,809
She seems to know what she's talking about.

721
00:42:08,839 --> 00:42:10,553
And, and, um.

722
00:42:10,773 --> 00:42:15,783
But, but if you didn't have a, you know, a title to your

723
00:42:15,783 --> 00:42:17,143
name, you never got anywhere.

724
00:42:17,213 --> 00:42:19,153
And Bitcoin was the complete opposite.

725
00:42:19,223 --> 00:42:25,030
Like, the only thing that got you anywhere in Bitcoin was like merit.

726
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,770
Uh, have you done something or not?

727
00:42:27,870 --> 00:42:30,270
Like, have you contributed?

728
00:42:30,613 --> 00:42:35,893
so this is very, very refreshing to be in Bitcoin circles

729
00:42:35,893 --> 00:42:37,500
for me, having been in fiat

730
00:42:37,863 --> 00:42:38,803
Yes, absolutely.

731
00:42:39,230 --> 00:42:45,983
oh, ba Yeah, before I forget, how was, uh, COVID in Beijing?

732
00:42:46,493 --> 00:42:51,313
Like, that sounds like a horrible place to be during COVID.

733
00:42:51,733 --> 00:42:57,133
So actually, so I, um, was only there about, I want to say five or six months.

734
00:42:57,623 --> 00:42:59,303
So it was my junior year of high school.

735
00:42:59,373 --> 00:43:05,003
Um, 2019 was when I got there and then it, we were all.

736
00:43:05,218 --> 00:43:08,168
Just so there were about 26, 27 of us in the program.

737
00:43:08,218 --> 00:43:09,848
We all lived with a host family.

738
00:43:09,918 --> 00:43:13,818
Um, we all went to a Chinese high school, uh, program was called School Year Abroad.

739
00:43:14,628 --> 00:43:17,248
And we all met basically when we got there.

740
00:43:17,288 --> 00:43:19,198
None of us really knew each other before we went.

741
00:43:19,715 --> 00:43:22,578
and then this was in late January.

742
00:43:22,628 --> 00:43:26,288
We were all, um, it was during the Spring Festival holiday, um, which

743
00:43:26,288 --> 00:43:27,838
kind of celebrates Chinese New Year.

744
00:43:28,218 --> 00:43:32,668
And it's kind of like, I think the map, the largest Mass migration of people

745
00:43:32,668 --> 00:43:36,158
at any time anywhere in the world because everyone kind of leaves the big

746
00:43:36,198 --> 00:43:39,318
cities and goes back to their hometown to celebrate with their families.

747
00:43:39,968 --> 00:43:41,188
And so we were all scattered.

748
00:43:41,963 --> 00:43:44,313
my mom had actually come over to see me.

749
00:43:44,333 --> 00:43:49,673
And so we were together in southern China when there were like eight cases

750
00:43:49,813 --> 00:43:53,033
on Hainan, um, the island where we were.

751
00:43:53,613 --> 00:43:55,603
And I never went back to Beijing.

752
00:43:55,733 --> 00:43:57,113
Um, like I just.

753
00:43:57,523 --> 00:44:01,953
Returned home with my carry on suitcase and no one knew it was happening.

754
00:44:01,953 --> 00:44:05,103
I had a return flight back to China for early February.

755
00:44:05,563 --> 00:44:10,877
Um, and then I came back to Houston where I'm from, went to the big

756
00:44:10,877 --> 00:44:14,107
hospital here and they're like, Oh, you know, we don't know what this is.

757
00:44:14,661 --> 00:44:18,071
we have to run it into our infectious disease algorithm, go home.

758
00:44:18,611 --> 00:44:20,411
Um, and so I did.

759
00:44:21,156 --> 00:44:24,046
Then we got a call like midnight or something that night.

760
00:44:24,046 --> 00:44:25,976
And I had to go back to the hospital.

761
00:44:25,976 --> 00:44:28,746
There was like an armed guard outside of the room.

762
00:44:29,126 --> 00:44:31,326
I tried to find every place I'd ever been in China.

763
00:44:31,656 --> 00:44:36,316
Um, so I never experienced COVID in China, but I guess I was kind of there.

764
00:44:36,691 --> 00:44:41,725
At the beginning, because we all, so that was January, I think I left like January

765
00:44:41,735 --> 00:44:48,945
26th, something around then, um, came home, did a quarantine, um, and then I

766
00:44:49,125 --> 00:44:51,180
went back to the school that I was in.

767
00:44:51,330 --> 00:44:53,580
You know, was normally enrolled in in high school.

768
00:44:54,140 --> 00:44:56,470
And then we all left for spring break.

769
00:44:56,470 --> 00:44:59,570
But before we left, they said, you know, you should ship your books

770
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,760
home just in case we can't come back for the rest of the school year.

771
00:45:03,590 --> 00:45:04,670
And so that's what we did.

772
00:45:04,722 --> 00:45:05,512
couldn't go back.

773
00:45:05,532 --> 00:45:09,665
And so then I just finished the year online, from my sending

774
00:45:09,715 --> 00:45:11,275
school, like my main high school.

775
00:45:11,545 --> 00:45:15,155
I was still taking classes from my Chinese high school and then I was enrolled in

776
00:45:15,155 --> 00:45:20,032
another online school and some AP classes, cause I wanted to get more credits.

777
00:45:20,328 --> 00:45:23,438
so anyways, my COVID experience was basically just sitting at

778
00:45:23,438 --> 00:45:25,728
my desk, um, for many hours.

779
00:45:26,238 --> 00:45:29,688
So it's probably your pile of books that infected America then.

780
00:45:30,748 --> 00:45:32,298
But that's patient zero, right?

781
00:45:32,638 --> 00:45:36,918
Yeah, well, actually my, so the pile of books, I guess, started in the U.

782
00:45:36,918 --> 00:45:37,148
S.

783
00:45:37,479 --> 00:45:42,349
and then some friends who left after me ended up, my, my host family very

784
00:45:42,349 --> 00:45:43,899
kindly packed all of my belongings.

785
00:45:43,909 --> 00:45:47,509
Well, I didn't actually have that much because we wore a uniform and I just kind

786
00:45:47,509 --> 00:45:49,619
of went with one, like, larger suitcase.

787
00:45:50,139 --> 00:45:53,339
Um, so my host family packed my belongings and then a friend.

788
00:45:53,559 --> 00:45:56,509
Took it back with her when she came back to the US.

789
00:45:56,679 --> 00:45:56,929
So

790
00:45:58,064 --> 00:45:58,404
All right.

791
00:45:59,974 --> 00:46:00,334
Okay.

792
00:46:00,364 --> 00:46:03,364
Well, yeah, we're, we're going all over the place here, but, uh, another

793
00:46:03,364 --> 00:46:08,724
thing I, uh, that came to my mind a bit earlier that I said, well, how did

794
00:46:08,724 --> 00:46:13,054
you end up in Ghana at that specific conference and not one of the other

795
00:46:13,054 --> 00:46:14,814
conferences that most people go to?

796
00:46:15,519 --> 00:46:19,879
yes, um, because of Farida is the short version.

797
00:46:20,205 --> 00:46:25,005
but I was at Bitcoin Prague and actually that's when I heard your talk

798
00:46:25,015 --> 00:46:30,295
about how like we are all Bitcoin, you know, because like, I'll like, I'll

799
00:46:30,295 --> 00:46:32,665
leave the explanation to you, but I.

800
00:46:33,260 --> 00:46:36,900
Like that, that talk was honestly like the biggest takeaway of my time there.

801
00:46:36,900 --> 00:46:38,140
I just thought it was fascinating.

802
00:46:38,570 --> 00:46:40,900
Um, yes, yes, yes.

803
00:46:41,218 --> 00:46:50,058
and so then I shared an Uber with her and Anita, um, and just to the airport.

804
00:46:50,148 --> 00:46:55,132
Um, and we kind of got to talking and then she very kindly invited me to come, to

805
00:46:55,142 --> 00:46:56,622
speak at the Africa Bitcoin Conference.

806
00:46:56,692 --> 00:46:57,912
And so that is how I got there.

807
00:46:58,684 --> 00:46:59,424
How nice.

808
00:46:59,494 --> 00:47:01,454
And like, what a lovely story.

809
00:47:01,728 --> 00:47:02,718
Yeah, exactly.

810
00:47:02,718 --> 00:47:07,058
And, uh, yeah, you're making it to tons of, uh, great conferences.

811
00:47:07,058 --> 00:47:12,138
We kind of stick to the, the European circuit lately, but, uh, yeah, fantastic.

812
00:47:12,218 --> 00:47:12,888
for yourself.

813
00:47:13,768 --> 00:47:16,868
Well, I mean, yeah, you're, you're, you're getting a little bit further

814
00:47:16,868 --> 00:47:18,398
out there, but you're mostly Europe.

815
00:47:19,688 --> 00:47:20,908
Yeah, it's convenient.

816
00:47:21,528 --> 00:47:23,168
yeah, yeah, totally, totally.

817
00:47:23,208 --> 00:47:27,682
But no, so, so, um, okay, so, you, you touched on a couple of things here.

818
00:47:27,682 --> 00:47:33,831
So what's going on in, um, Africa, well, okay, maybe, maybe just

819
00:47:33,831 --> 00:47:35,161
even a little bit more about that.

820
00:47:35,476 --> 00:47:36,796
What was your experience there?

821
00:47:36,796 --> 00:47:40,616
Because, I mean, of all the places in the world, that's, that's one that

822
00:47:40,616 --> 00:47:43,966
is extremely culturally different from the, uh, sort of the, the

823
00:47:44,016 --> 00:47:48,276
Western centric Bitcoin Twitter, uh, that, that's kind of out there.

824
00:47:48,486 --> 00:47:49,666
Was that your first time in Africa?

825
00:47:49,666 --> 00:47:50,706
What was your experience there?

826
00:47:51,141 --> 00:47:55,312
So, it was my third time in Africa, I had been to Tanzania,

827
00:47:55,432 --> 00:47:56,922
uh, a couple of times before.

828
00:47:57,319 --> 00:48:02,510
the first time I was in a little village called Majimoto, um, outside of Arusha,

829
00:48:02,685 --> 00:48:07,007
and so that was, I was there for about five weeks, and then I went back a couple

830
00:48:07,007 --> 00:48:12,777
of months later, um, similar area, um, not quite, um, and so then this was my

831
00:48:12,777 --> 00:48:14,977
third time in Africa, first time in Ghana.

832
00:48:15,912 --> 00:48:20,332
And I'll preface by saying I wish I could have actually, I feel like I

833
00:48:20,332 --> 00:48:22,312
didn't really experience Ghana that much.

834
00:48:22,312 --> 00:48:27,329
I was kind of more just at the conference center, but, so it was my third time,

835
00:48:27,436 --> 00:48:32,736
and I thought it was, the conference itself was just very, I think, different

836
00:48:32,766 --> 00:48:34,436
from other ones that I've been to.

837
00:48:34,794 --> 00:48:36,724
I think there was much more.

838
00:48:36,944 --> 00:48:42,824
Like real, it felt a little bit smaller, um, more real conversation

839
00:48:42,824 --> 00:48:45,714
or just sense of community that I found to be really nice.

840
00:48:45,764 --> 00:48:49,772
Like it just seemed everyone kind of flocked together more, which I

841
00:48:49,772 --> 00:48:51,162
thought was a very nice experience.

842
00:48:51,222 --> 00:48:54,412
More time to, like, I, like I said, I really enjoyed talking to

843
00:48:54,412 --> 00:48:57,872
the other students that were there and making connections with them.

844
00:48:58,436 --> 00:49:02,801
I think if I had to say what's the largest or one of the largest Takeaways.

845
00:49:03,341 --> 00:49:09,111
Um, and it's something that Femi said, which was, um, oh, and I have to put him,

846
00:49:09,181 --> 00:49:10,311
I have to make sure I get this right.

847
00:49:10,311 --> 00:49:11,701
If I say it wrong, I'll correct myself.

848
00:49:12,011 --> 00:49:15,411
Um, but basically Africans don't need Bitcoin.

849
00:49:15,501 --> 00:49:17,841
Bitcoin needs Africans.

850
00:49:18,101 --> 00:49:18,721
Uh, yeah.

851
00:49:18,721 --> 00:49:18,921
Okay.

852
00:49:18,921 --> 00:49:19,551
So that, right.

853
00:49:19,910 --> 00:49:20,690
and so.

854
00:49:20,985 --> 00:49:25,295
Like the US, we don't have like the same problems.

855
00:49:25,345 --> 00:49:29,025
We don't like, we have a functioning financial system in comparison.

856
00:49:29,495 --> 00:49:33,305
And so for instance, somebody was saying, you know, um, through like B

857
00:49:33,305 --> 00:49:37,525
Trust builders, you know, don't go build the African Uber, like, you know, build

858
00:49:37,995 --> 00:49:41,595
like an actual solution to the problem that, you know, then Bitcoin needs.

859
00:49:42,145 --> 00:49:46,005
And so I really like, that was just something that I really appreciated.

860
00:49:46,170 --> 00:49:48,010
You know, witnessing and learning and seeing.

861
00:49:49,179 --> 00:49:49,749
Oh, cool.

862
00:49:50,489 --> 00:49:55,149
Uh, so, so what, what conferences are you planning on going to this year?

863
00:49:55,263 --> 00:49:59,393
so I, right now, and this maybe will change, but Madeira, I'm

864
00:49:59,503 --> 00:50:00,873
really looking forward to that.

865
00:50:01,286 --> 00:50:04,456
Baltic Honey Badger, I think is, um, going to happen.

866
00:50:04,592 --> 00:50:09,429
I've never been to like the Bitcoin Miamis, um, but I will be

867
00:50:09,429 --> 00:50:13,457
at Bitcoin Nashville, Generation Bitcoin has some exciting news for

868
00:50:13,457 --> 00:50:15,307
that, um, that'll come out shortly.

869
00:50:15,387 --> 00:50:17,017
Um, so I'm really looking forward to that.

870
00:50:17,637 --> 00:50:18,207
And.

871
00:50:18,622 --> 00:50:18,902
Venice.

872
00:50:19,072 --> 00:50:21,672
I might be missing some, but I think those are the big ones.

873
00:50:22,312 --> 00:50:24,742
Uh, maybe Bitcoin Prague if they, if they ask me back.

874
00:50:24,772 --> 00:50:26,192
Um, I loved that one as well.

875
00:50:26,252 --> 00:50:28,072
So we'll kind of see how the year unfolds.

876
00:50:28,817 --> 00:50:29,197
nice.

877
00:50:29,677 --> 00:50:31,377
All, uh, lovely events.

878
00:50:31,727 --> 00:50:32,707
Uh, yeah.

879
00:50:33,907 --> 00:50:36,097
You haven't been to Honeybadger before?

880
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:37,840
it's the, it's the best.

881
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:38,860
Like, yeah.

882
00:50:39,430 --> 00:50:44,900
Oh, well, Bitcoin, Prague and Madera are also the best, but like . Yeah.

883
00:50:45,710 --> 00:50:47,320
Uh, we love them all.

884
00:50:47,835 --> 00:50:48,125
Yeah.

885
00:50:48,175 --> 00:50:48,715
It's nice.

886
00:50:49,395 --> 00:50:52,385
You know, I sort of mentioned this earlier, but just getting outside

887
00:50:52,385 --> 00:50:56,865
of your own worldview, like what I love about Bitcoin is like every

888
00:50:56,865 --> 00:51:01,465
day, I just feel like I know less just, you know, being interested in.

889
00:51:01,775 --> 00:51:02,795
You know, uncertainty.

890
00:51:02,815 --> 00:51:04,725
Like that's why I went to China to begin with.

891
00:51:05,145 --> 00:51:08,775
Um, just the not knowing I really enjoy about Bitcoin.

892
00:51:08,875 --> 00:51:14,535
Um, and the, like, I would prioritize conferences outside of the US, maybe

893
00:51:14,535 --> 00:51:18,295
over ones in the US just so, and see where Bitcoin's actually being used.

894
00:51:18,295 --> 00:51:19,835
What is Bitcoin actually doing?

895
00:51:20,295 --> 00:51:23,825
Um, cause Bitcoin, it's just so much bigger than what is happening.

896
00:51:24,095 --> 00:51:24,415
here.

897
00:51:24,535 --> 00:51:27,765
Um, so I'm really grateful for, you know, Farida inviting me to the Africa

898
00:51:27,975 --> 00:51:31,095
Bitcoin Conference, all of those, you know, different things that happen.

899
00:51:31,385 --> 00:51:31,565
So

900
00:51:32,330 --> 00:51:32,690
Yeah.

901
00:51:32,990 --> 00:51:33,410
Yeah.

902
00:51:33,470 --> 00:51:35,750
My tip would be do it now while you can.

903
00:51:35,750 --> 00:51:38,330
It's easier, it's easier when you don't have a family.

904
00:51:38,330 --> 00:51:43,730
Like, uh, uh, it becomes harder to go to other continents when you do.

905
00:51:43,730 --> 00:51:46,480
But, but still, it's not impossible.

906
00:51:46,510 --> 00:51:47,650
Nothing's impossible.

907
00:51:48,905 --> 00:51:50,195
But yeah, it's so fascinating.

908
00:51:50,225 --> 00:51:54,565
I stumbled into a Bitcoiner in the supermarket today, and there aren't

909
00:51:54,585 --> 00:51:59,205
very many Bitcoiners around this area where I am, but apparently he started

910
00:51:59,205 --> 00:52:04,635
a little Telegram group, and there are like 20 people in this area, and

911
00:52:04,635 --> 00:52:11,009
uh, and the, so the thing is, this is what I've noticed, like, meetups

912
00:52:11,089 --> 00:52:15,759
and, and little groups of bitcoiners and, you know, groups on telegram

913
00:52:15,769 --> 00:52:21,289
or orange pill app or, so, they are literally everywhere in the whole world.

914
00:52:21,944 --> 00:52:24,894
But they're very small, but the key point is that they're

915
00:52:24,894 --> 00:52:26,884
everywhere, absolutely everywhere.

916
00:52:27,644 --> 00:52:29,144
And I think that's fantastic.

917
00:52:29,144 --> 00:52:33,534
And it's like, it feels like, like Bonnie Tyler said, we're living in

918
00:52:33,534 --> 00:52:35,744
a powder keg and giving off sparks.

919
00:52:35,794 --> 00:52:38,334
That's, that's what Bitcoiners are doing.

920
00:52:39,234 --> 00:52:40,464
It's about to explode.

921
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,980
yeah, to your point earlier, just, you know, the network communication,

922
00:52:44,580 --> 00:52:48,220
all the nodes, like I think it's the little communities that will have really

923
00:52:48,220 --> 00:52:52,360
drastic effects, kind of maybe the domino effect on Bitcoin adoption as well.

924
00:52:52,410 --> 00:52:55,760
Just if everyone, you know, has, we started off this conversation,

925
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:57,940
can just tell their friend or their family about it.

926
00:52:58,370 --> 00:53:00,260
It's really exciting all of that beginning to happen.

927
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928
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929
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930
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931
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932
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933
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934
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935
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936
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937
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938
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939
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940
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941
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942
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943
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949
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950
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952
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953
00:54:13,921 --> 00:54:14,271
yeah.

954
00:54:14,271 --> 00:54:17,311
So, so, so what are your thoughts on this whole ETF thing?

955
00:54:17,321 --> 00:54:18,531
Have you looked at that?

956
00:54:18,541 --> 00:54:22,321
That's, that's like the current thing now that everyone's talking about.

957
00:54:22,321 --> 00:54:25,551
So like, have you looked into that any, like, like, do you

958
00:54:25,551 --> 00:54:26,561
know anything about that?

959
00:54:26,990 --> 00:54:29,580
Never mind, this will be, uh, three weeks after the supposed

960
00:54:29,580 --> 00:54:30,750
announcement, et cetera.

961
00:54:30,750 --> 00:54:34,160
So, you know, use your words carefully.

962
00:54:34,751 --> 00:54:35,611
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

963
00:54:36,951 --> 00:54:41,021
guess it's a, yeah, it's a little hard to escape it, I think.

964
00:54:41,311 --> 00:54:42,811
Not that you're trying to escape it.

965
00:54:42,881 --> 00:54:50,471
Um, I never will buy the ETF or, like, I have no interest in purchasing the ETF.

966
00:54:50,931 --> 00:54:55,171
I think it's maybe long term, like, low time preference.

967
00:54:55,616 --> 00:55:01,746
perhaps a negative, um, because now we're just like centralizing

968
00:55:01,746 --> 00:55:03,446
huge hordes of Bitcoin.

969
00:55:03,496 --> 00:55:06,646
Like it just goes back to the basics of your bank account.

970
00:55:06,696 --> 00:55:09,336
You know, the balance you see, it's a credit, it's an IOU.

971
00:55:09,446 --> 00:55:11,266
Like that's not actually your property.

972
00:55:11,266 --> 00:55:12,516
That's not actually your wealth.

973
00:55:13,136 --> 00:55:18,626
Um, and so sure, I guess, okay, now more people know about Bitcoin.

974
00:55:19,276 --> 00:55:21,656
Um, like at least in the U S sure.

975
00:55:21,656 --> 00:55:23,616
Now maybe it's easier for them to buy it.

976
00:55:23,841 --> 00:55:27,631
But, I don't know, like a doomsday scenario, again, I was talking about

977
00:55:27,731 --> 00:55:31,899
this this morning as well, like, like the government could perhaps, you know,

978
00:55:31,899 --> 00:55:37,259
step in and say, like 6102, like, you know, April 5th, 1933, everyone turn in

979
00:55:37,259 --> 00:55:42,149
your gold, like, how could they not just do the same, like, you know, whatever,

980
00:55:42,149 --> 00:55:48,514
BlackRock, time to hand over, like, the Bitcoin, um, and, I think I've looked

981
00:55:48,514 --> 00:55:53,304
in the past, like, what are the patterns at which big events like this happen?

982
00:55:53,884 --> 00:55:58,494
Um, and so for instance, I looked back, a lot of the financial crises have

983
00:55:58,514 --> 00:56:01,114
about 40 year periods of happening.

984
00:56:01,164 --> 00:56:05,234
And then obviously we know we have a new world reserve currency

985
00:56:05,234 --> 00:56:06,344
about every hundred years.

986
00:56:07,174 --> 00:56:09,634
Um, and when I was looking at this, like.

987
00:56:09,919 --> 00:56:15,169
around 2040 kind of coalesced as another kind of, um, both

988
00:56:15,169 --> 00:56:16,189
of these events happening.

989
00:56:16,699 --> 00:56:20,369
And so on the ETF, like, uh, these are all just random thoughts.

990
00:56:20,589 --> 00:56:25,139
Um, yeah, I think long term it could not be so good.

991
00:56:25,746 --> 00:56:31,306
Okay, so this is the call to action I'd like to say here, for the only

992
00:56:31,306 --> 00:56:36,316
coins that can be, that can be centralized are the coins in the ETF.

993
00:56:36,736 --> 00:56:41,176
So don't sell your coins, like even if Bitcoin goes to a million, don't

994
00:56:41,206 --> 00:56:45,236
let your coins be a part of that thing that is going to be centralized

995
00:56:45,236 --> 00:56:46,896
and confiscated at some point.

996
00:56:47,276 --> 00:56:51,796
The, the thing, the thing here, like always, is like.

997
00:56:52,246 --> 00:56:56,066
Keep the lion's share of your Bitcoin, don't ever sell them.

998
00:56:56,996 --> 00:57:01,036
That's, that's how we keep this thing, uh, the way it was intended.

999
00:57:01,106 --> 00:57:04,546
Like, you need your stack, like, take care of your stack and your

1000
00:57:04,556 --> 00:57:05,916
stack will take care of you.

1001
00:57:07,156 --> 00:57:09,336
Because you're part, you're, you're the same thing.

1002
00:57:09,426 --> 00:57:09,936
Boo.

1003
00:57:09,996 --> 00:57:10,186
hmm.

1004
00:57:12,276 --> 00:57:12,726
I know.

1005
00:57:12,806 --> 00:57:15,806
And I don't know if this exactly relates, but another podcast I was

1006
00:57:15,816 --> 00:57:20,166
listening to this morning, or maybe not, it was a TED talk, um, cybercrime

1007
00:57:20,326 --> 00:57:22,696
is like the third largest economy.

1008
00:57:23,011 --> 00:57:26,731
And so again, like, I don't know, this just brings up like the

1009
00:57:26,731 --> 00:57:30,791
Jason Lowery, all of that topic on how are we securing cyberspace.

1010
00:57:31,051 --> 00:57:34,441
Um, but just again, you know, I don't know how exactly this

1011
00:57:34,441 --> 00:57:35,481
doesn't really relate to the ETF.

1012
00:57:36,351 --> 00:57:37,611
Um, but I, yeah,

1013
00:57:38,496 --> 00:57:44,296
The whole, the whole fiat currency system is the world's biggest cybercrime.

1014
00:57:44,476 --> 00:57:46,476
It is cybercrime, literally.

1015
00:57:46,516 --> 00:57:47,246
That's what it is.

1016
00:57:47,356 --> 00:57:52,506
Like, uh, at least when we had bills, they were, there was a production cost to them.

1017
00:57:52,826 --> 00:57:59,486
Like creating a digital dollar is absolutely free and some people

1018
00:57:59,486 --> 00:58:03,476
have the right to do that and why it's, it's, it's criminal.

1019
00:58:04,141 --> 00:58:07,171
That's the only way to explain it, counterfeiting.

1020
00:58:08,221 --> 00:58:11,421
this, you just, when you said digital dollar, it made me think also of

1021
00:58:11,461 --> 00:58:17,221
CBDCs and like a lot of people that I kind of interacted with.

1022
00:58:17,731 --> 00:58:20,831
Like, I just hear CBDC and you just like, I think we all hear that.

1023
00:58:20,841 --> 00:58:21,101
And it's like.

1024
00:58:21,311 --> 00:58:22,871
You know, fear, like that's bad.

1025
00:58:22,871 --> 00:58:27,211
Like, you know, not good, but a lot of people, I think my age don't have

1026
00:58:27,241 --> 00:58:29,501
that instinct response yet as well.

1027
00:58:29,501 --> 00:58:33,681
And so that's just another topic area that I think is also

1028
00:58:33,681 --> 00:58:35,721
important to educate about as well.

1029
00:58:35,781 --> 00:58:38,861
Like people just, oh, there's so many things to educate about, but.

1030
00:58:39,071 --> 00:58:43,531
Um, just really what is property, property rights, um, how you're

1031
00:58:43,531 --> 00:58:46,261
securing your wealth and your energy, energy for generations.

1032
00:58:46,261 --> 00:58:49,911
You know, all of that, I think are important things to talk to everyone

1033
00:58:49,911 --> 00:58:51,411
about, especially younger people.

1034
00:58:51,825 --> 00:58:55,575
back to the younger people part of it, can you explain a little bit more

1035
00:58:55,575 --> 00:59:00,395
about what the, the, gen, am I getting the term right, the generation B,

1036
00:59:00,395 --> 00:59:03,435
or the, which is the organization,

1037
00:59:03,606 --> 00:59:05,466
So it's, uh, there's two separate things.

1038
00:59:05,626 --> 00:59:10,316
Um, so there's generation B, um, and then there's the Bitcoin Students Network.

1039
00:59:10,666 --> 00:59:13,626
yeah, can you tell us a little more about both of those in

1040
00:59:13,626 --> 00:59:14,716
whichever order you'd like?

1041
00:59:14,986 --> 00:59:15,306
Sure.

1042
00:59:15,346 --> 00:59:15,616
Okay.

1043
00:59:15,676 --> 00:59:21,911
So generation Bitcoin, um, think about this as having a larger Target audience.

1044
00:59:22,272 --> 00:59:26,922
so much, you know, it's not just the university students.

1045
00:59:27,232 --> 00:59:30,632
Um, so the Bitcoin Students Network is much more targeted at, you

1046
00:59:30,632 --> 00:59:34,772
know, are you in university, maybe a little older than university.

1047
00:59:35,242 --> 00:59:39,202
Um, and so that's like, just who is targeting.

1048
00:59:39,212 --> 00:59:40,492
That's the difference there.

1049
00:59:40,492 --> 00:59:47,282
Um, Both have missions to expand access to education and career resources.

1050
00:59:47,846 --> 00:59:52,662
the Bitcoin Students Network, like what are, the idea is you're a student

1051
00:59:52,702 --> 00:59:57,942
in university, um, you want to start a Bitcoin club or you want to, you

1052
00:59:57,942 --> 00:59:59,802
don't know where to start, basically.

1053
01:00:00,112 --> 01:00:02,792
Think of like Bitcoin Students Network is like a one stop stop.

1054
01:00:03,062 --> 01:00:03,682
for resources.

1055
01:00:04,293 --> 01:00:06,893
the website's under development right now, but the idea is that

1056
01:00:06,893 --> 01:00:08,273
maybe you're presented with a map.

1057
01:00:08,763 --> 01:00:14,073
Um, say you're in Japan and you see, you know, what's

1058
01:00:14,073 --> 01:00:16,153
happening in Japan in that area.

1059
01:00:16,223 --> 01:00:19,803
You have a point of contact, um, or maybe there's no one.

1060
01:00:19,983 --> 01:00:23,433
And then you come out, you know, us, the organization, like, Hey,

1061
01:00:23,433 --> 01:00:24,953
I want to start a Bitcoin club.

1062
01:00:25,063 --> 01:00:27,113
And we're saying, great, like, here's guides.

1063
01:00:27,153 --> 01:00:30,333
Here's what a constitution could look like, you know, try to do all

1064
01:00:30,333 --> 01:00:36,563
of the heavy work, any barriers that might stop you, um, initially, or

1065
01:00:36,683 --> 01:00:39,773
I don't know, maybe you're in Italy and there's a lot of, you know.

1066
01:00:39,948 --> 01:00:44,058
Other stuff going on that is already out there, again, serve as connection to

1067
01:00:44,058 --> 01:00:49,448
people, different career opportunities, um, basically try to remove any barriers

1068
01:00:49,518 --> 01:00:54,058
to you feeling like you can contribute and participate in the Bitcoin space.

1069
01:00:54,850 --> 01:00:57,970
Great, and what, what are, what is your role in both of these projects?

1070
01:00:58,450 --> 01:01:03,370
Yeah, so at Generation Bitcoin, um, my official title is like project lead.

1071
01:01:03,572 --> 01:01:08,542
and the Bitcoin Students Network, um, I am one of the co founders of that.

1072
01:01:08,632 --> 01:01:13,502
So Generation Bitcoin, for context, was founded by, um, Arsh Maloo, who's at HRF.

1073
01:01:13,982 --> 01:01:17,902
Um, Ishana Misra, she is still in high school, but she is the

1074
01:01:17,902 --> 01:01:20,217
youngest Bitcoin Core, contributor.

1075
01:01:20,297 --> 01:01:24,107
And then Autumn Domingo, who works a lot on like the UI UX in Bitcoin.

1076
01:01:24,237 --> 01:01:27,777
Um, and they founded Generation Bitcoin a couple of years ago.

1077
01:01:28,597 --> 01:01:33,597
And then they kind of, uh, maybe it was two summers ago now, um, connected

1078
01:01:33,597 --> 01:01:37,377
to Arsh through Twitter space and they kind of restarted Generation Bitcoin

1079
01:01:37,377 --> 01:01:41,597
and that's when I joined, um, and then the Bitcoin Students Network, there's

1080
01:01:41,787 --> 01:01:45,467
about, uh, we kind of have different telegram groups, but there's about.

1081
01:01:45,697 --> 01:01:49,975
Like 30 students, I want to say across like 12, 11, 12 countries.

1082
01:01:50,420 --> 01:01:53,570
and then there's five of us that are working more kind of

1083
01:01:53,650 --> 01:01:55,200
day to day on building it out.

1084
01:01:55,310 --> 01:01:58,440
So two are in Italy, one's in Canada, um, and then two in the U S

1085
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:03,520
that's kind of the makeup of how the different organizations are structured.

1086
01:02:04,212 --> 01:02:04,872
yeah.

1087
01:02:04,872 --> 01:02:09,182
And how are you, how, how are you marketing this to other students?

1088
01:02:09,182 --> 01:02:12,992
Like how, how, how do you reach students like, and how curious are they?

1089
01:02:13,957 --> 01:02:14,207
Yeah.

1090
01:02:14,327 --> 01:02:18,067
So there will be a lot more to say on this topic in the coming months.

1091
01:02:18,287 --> 01:02:22,827
Um, but you know, on our marketing and when we officially announce

1092
01:02:22,837 --> 01:02:27,632
everything as well, um, But in terms of, we'll just say the Bitcoin Students

1093
01:02:27,682 --> 01:02:31,292
Network, really going to universities.

1094
01:02:31,502 --> 01:02:35,216
Um, so how this kind of started, part of it, well, actually Lucas,

1095
01:02:35,416 --> 01:02:39,016
um, Ferrer, he was the initial kind of connector of everyone.

1096
01:02:39,456 --> 01:02:44,766
Um, but one of the kind of stories of why we realized there really was a need, um.

1097
01:02:45,191 --> 01:02:49,261
I, cause part of my story trying to go to Cornell and say, Hey,

1098
01:02:49,271 --> 01:02:50,831
I really want to study Bitcoin.

1099
01:02:50,831 --> 01:02:52,501
I want to talk about this, focus on this.

1100
01:02:52,995 --> 01:02:57,055
I even wrote a letter to the president of the university and the board of trustees.

1101
01:02:57,095 --> 01:02:58,825
And I, I personalized it.

1102
01:02:58,825 --> 01:03:01,985
Like there was a whole reason of why I think this, you know, connects with the

1103
01:03:01,985 --> 01:03:03,795
history of our school and what we're.

1104
01:03:03,795 --> 01:03:07,385
You know, we say we're here to do and basically a lot of dead ends.

1105
01:03:07,605 --> 01:03:12,095
Um, and so like, okay, instead of trying to go, you know, top down of,

1106
01:03:12,155 --> 01:03:15,235
you know, all these people, students look to universities to tell them

1107
01:03:15,235 --> 01:03:18,115
what to study, what to value, what they should spend their time on.

1108
01:03:18,675 --> 01:03:22,325
Well, if the, if the universities are never going to, or not never,

1109
01:03:22,325 --> 01:03:26,015
but right now, not going to tell them that Bitcoin is worth their time

1110
01:03:26,035 --> 01:03:27,425
or something they should look at.

1111
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,510
And then we'll try to be more bottom up through the students.

1112
01:03:31,180 --> 01:03:32,390
And so, for instance, in the U.

1113
01:03:32,390 --> 01:03:35,890
S., um, there's hundreds of blockchain clubs.

1114
01:03:36,431 --> 01:03:39,231
and so, you know, outreach through all of them.

1115
01:03:39,471 --> 01:03:41,611
and so that's, you know, one method.

1116
01:03:41,951 --> 01:03:46,241
Um, there's a lot of different education initiatives happening around the world.

1117
01:03:46,591 --> 01:03:49,471
Um, who, you know, we've outreached to as well.

1118
01:03:49,571 --> 01:03:51,211
Um, so, you know, I think.

1119
01:03:51,631 --> 01:03:56,481
Bitcoiners just, my experience is everyone just wants to help everyone else succeed.

1120
01:03:56,481 --> 01:03:58,081
Like, you know, that's how I got to Ghana.

1121
01:03:58,131 --> 01:04:00,541
Just the kindness and the friendliness of Bitcoiners.

1122
01:04:01,038 --> 01:04:05,008
so that's kind of part of the, uh, distribution of it right now.

1123
01:04:05,549 --> 01:04:05,759
Yeah.

1124
01:04:05,784 --> 01:04:09,389
I, I, I love that angle that, that we're all incentivized to help one

1125
01:04:09,389 --> 01:04:12,989
another because we are the thing, so we help Bitcoin by helping one another.

1126
01:04:13,349 --> 01:04:15,059
Like, uh, o okay.

1127
01:04:15,059 --> 01:04:20,009
These, these blockchain people that you talk about in the, in the academia world,

1128
01:04:20,309 --> 01:04:26,099
like are, isn't there a risk to to, to, like having them in the bitcoin groups?

1129
01:04:26,534 --> 01:04:30,144
Uh, how do you filter out the bad seeds and the, the actual scammers,

1130
01:04:30,854 --> 01:04:35,694
uh, and people who have just fallen for scams like they're, because those

1131
01:04:35,694 --> 01:04:37,764
are muddy waters in my experience.

1132
01:04:38,254 --> 01:04:39,834
no, I, I agree.

1133
01:04:39,834 --> 01:04:42,864
And to not say too much, I've experienced it as well.

1134
01:04:43,194 --> 01:04:46,314
so for instance, I was in, um, the Cornell Blockchain Club

1135
01:04:46,394 --> 01:04:47,544
and I was the only Bitcoiner.

1136
01:04:48,239 --> 01:04:51,599
Um, you know, there's different people that are working on this project

1137
01:04:51,609 --> 01:04:56,289
that are also in X school blockchain club, but they are a Bitcoiner.

1138
01:04:56,659 --> 01:05:01,819
Um, so I think, you know, in many instances, there's, maybe there's

1139
01:05:01,819 --> 01:05:06,009
one person who is a Bitcoiner who, you know, trying to talk

1140
01:05:06,019 --> 01:05:07,989
about Bitcoin in that message.

1141
01:05:08,419 --> 01:05:12,109
Um, but at least like, you know, just when you go to, at least in the U.

1142
01:05:12,109 --> 01:05:13,759
S., how it works when you start a club.

1143
01:05:14,374 --> 01:05:16,984
You, there's like a whole process that it has to go with.

1144
01:05:17,024 --> 01:05:19,924
And one of the first questions they ask you is, is there a

1145
01:05:19,924 --> 01:05:23,464
club already established on campus that's similar in nature?

1146
01:05:24,434 --> 01:05:29,404
And often if you're new to a school, as was my case, you know, you

1147
01:05:29,404 --> 01:05:33,414
might just not know enough people there to initially start a club.

1148
01:05:33,454 --> 01:05:37,704
There might not be a faculty advisor that wants to sponsor your club.

1149
01:05:37,794 --> 01:05:41,024
Like you just, there might be some roadblocks that stop you

1150
01:05:41,294 --> 01:05:42,624
when you initially get there.

1151
01:05:42,844 --> 01:05:46,344
And so you're like, okay, you know, I'll join the blockchain club and I'll just,

1152
01:05:46,404 --> 01:05:51,844
you know, talk about Bitcoin and, um, try and, you know, spread the Bitcoin

1153
01:05:51,844 --> 01:05:55,694
message to new members that come into the club, or that might be a thought process.

1154
01:05:56,474 --> 01:06:01,279
Um, so we haven't outreached yet to all of the blockchain clubs, like.

1155
01:06:01,439 --> 01:06:06,159
You know, we have our list, but I know from a test case, like I was the one

1156
01:06:06,159 --> 01:06:09,979
person, so I have to, you know, at least optimistic and believing that,

1157
01:06:09,999 --> 01:06:14,499
you know, maybe in the, you know, hundred some odd list we have, well,

1158
01:06:14,499 --> 01:06:18,549
if there's just one in each of those clubs, then we have, you know, a hundred

1159
01:06:18,589 --> 01:06:22,929
some odd students now around the US that are talking about Bitcoin and

1160
01:06:22,929 --> 01:06:27,559
that are now connected and feel not isolated or alone in their pursuit of

1161
01:06:27,559 --> 01:06:28,889
studying Bitcoin and sharing Bitcoin.

1162
01:06:29,663 --> 01:06:34,273
So there is a risk, but, um, we kind of have, oh, sorry, we have it

1163
01:06:34,303 --> 01:06:38,703
structured where, you know, you only like the clubs, they're Bitcoin only.

1164
01:06:39,153 --> 01:06:42,063
Um, they're, they're not like pseudo Bitcoin.

1165
01:06:43,248 --> 01:06:43,908
Good to hear.

1166
01:06:44,118 --> 01:06:49,258
Um, yeah, it's, it's, it's going to be so fantastic to watch this all play out.

1167
01:06:49,298 --> 01:06:52,968
It has been fantastic and it's going to continue to be fantastic

1168
01:06:52,968 --> 01:06:55,128
as we grow bigger everywhere.

1169
01:06:55,908 --> 01:06:56,968
I, I just love it.

1170
01:06:58,088 --> 01:06:59,228
It's all positive.

1171
01:06:59,573 --> 01:07:00,223
Exactly.

1172
01:07:00,293 --> 01:07:00,603
Yes.

1173
01:07:00,873 --> 01:07:04,225
And I, I think ultimately, you know, right now the scales, it's like, it's,

1174
01:07:04,225 --> 01:07:04,678
it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's.

1175
01:07:04,818 --> 01:07:07,958
Two Bitcoin clubs and hundreds on blockchain clubs.

1176
01:07:07,958 --> 01:07:12,518
I think over time, you know, that will, I think everyone's going to go to Bitcoin.

1177
01:07:12,538 --> 01:07:17,918
I mean, obviously I'm biased, but, um, yeah, it just, I see all the value lies

1178
01:07:17,958 --> 01:07:19,718
in Bitcoin and not in anything else.

1179
01:07:19,798 --> 01:07:23,318
So I think eventually the numbers will move and it'll transition over.

1180
01:07:27,313 --> 01:07:28,683
So you said you're going to Madeira.

1181
01:07:29,993 --> 01:07:31,603
How long are you planning on staying?

1182
01:07:31,603 --> 01:07:34,743
Are you seeing the rest of the island and, like

1183
01:07:35,294 --> 01:07:40,974
Yeah, so, um, the, well, I would really like to, because I think often I have

1184
01:07:40,974 --> 01:07:44,374
gone to conferences and not really seen much, like when I went to Prague,

1185
01:07:44,414 --> 01:07:48,014
my flight kind of got delayed, and so I was really only there for maybe,

1186
01:07:48,564 --> 01:07:50,144
I don't know, less than 48 hours.

1187
01:07:51,139 --> 01:07:55,969
But with Madeira, though, it works out well because we have a February

1188
01:07:55,979 --> 01:08:01,109
break, um, kind of the week prior to the conference, and so hopefully that

1189
01:08:01,109 --> 01:08:02,769
means I can get there ahead of time.

1190
01:08:02,919 --> 01:08:06,299
Um, I'll have to get back to school after it, um, but I'd like to,

1191
01:08:06,699 --> 01:08:09,789
I'd like to experience and, you know, actually be in the place,

1192
01:08:10,395 --> 01:08:11,305
Yeah, fantastic.

1193
01:08:11,325 --> 01:08:17,095
Like Madeira and Prague are two places you should spend some extra days in.

1194
01:08:17,275 --> 01:08:20,225
Too bad you didn't get to stay in Prague because that's a,

1195
01:08:20,225 --> 01:08:21,925
yeah, fantastic city as well.

1196
01:08:22,230 --> 01:08:22,460
Yes.

1197
01:08:22,670 --> 01:08:22,840
Yes.

1198
01:08:23,190 --> 01:08:26,990
And I know, you know, you all have planned so much incredible events happening.

1199
01:08:26,990 --> 01:08:30,830
And so, you know, I'd really like to just experience as much of it as possible.

1200
01:08:31,195 --> 01:08:34,825
Yeah, and I know there will be a lot of Bitcoiners around the island, uh,

1201
01:08:34,865 --> 01:08:37,305
like weeks before and weeks after.

1202
01:08:37,435 --> 01:08:41,535
Uh, and it's, the vibe there is just going to be fantastic.

1203
01:08:41,535 --> 01:08:42,625
I just know it.

1204
01:08:43,095 --> 01:08:45,025
Like everyone's looking forward to this one.

1205
01:08:45,340 --> 01:08:45,640
Yeah.

1206
01:08:45,780 --> 01:08:45,990
Yeah.

1207
01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:46,910
I think so.

1208
01:08:47,615 --> 01:08:51,625
Yeah, and the, the orange pilling is going quite well, uh, pre conference

1209
01:08:51,625 --> 01:08:55,595
now for, for retailers and like restaurants and bars and stuff on, on

1210
01:08:55,605 --> 01:09:00,575
Madeira, uh, new places that accept Bitcoin are popping up all the time,

1211
01:09:01,135 --> 01:09:05,435
uh, like trying to front, front run the, uh, the conference, I guess.

1212
01:09:06,225 --> 01:09:07,875
So if you go to btcmap.

1213
01:09:07,895 --> 01:09:12,425
org, you can zoom in on Funchal, you can see that there are now like

1214
01:09:12,445 --> 01:09:14,865
way more places than last year.

1215
01:09:14,865 --> 01:09:18,365
So, so, and that's fantastic for us to see who started, like when we

1216
01:09:18,365 --> 01:09:23,415
started the organization last year, there was like one cafe, that was it.

1217
01:09:23,975 --> 01:09:27,975
Uh, but yeah, it's, it's working and it's fantastic to see.

1218
01:09:28,380 --> 01:09:28,700
Yes.

1219
01:09:28,780 --> 01:09:29,080
Yes.

1220
01:09:29,130 --> 01:09:31,220
And, you know, your efforts are huge in that.

1221
01:09:31,220 --> 01:09:34,590
So, you know, thank you also for everything you did to make that happen.

1222
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:36,440
Oh, thank you.

1223
01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:42,240
Um, yeah, uh, Luke, do you have something more in your mind here?

1224
01:09:42,450 --> 01:09:42,770
Uh,

1225
01:09:43,205 --> 01:09:47,345
Yeah, so I think out of everything you've, you've talked about, sort of the, the

1226
01:09:47,345 --> 01:09:53,225
picture for the, the younger generation, uh, but the other element of, of your

1227
01:09:53,225 --> 01:09:58,035
experience, I, well, I would assume somewhat here, you're, you're like,

1228
01:09:58,055 --> 01:10:01,535
you're a, uh, what is your experience as a woman in the Bitcoin space?

1229
01:10:01,565 --> 01:10:05,875
Because, so you're not only in this generation Z, but you're in this, it's.

1230
01:10:06,095 --> 01:10:11,175
Fairly male dominated, at least publicly, and so how has your experience been?

1231
01:10:12,055 --> 01:10:15,395
Do you have generally positive experiences, some negatives?

1232
01:10:15,555 --> 01:10:16,535
What's your experience like?

1233
01:10:17,155 --> 01:10:20,705
No, I mean, I think I, I think I have positive experiences.

1234
01:10:20,835 --> 01:10:27,945
Um, yeah, I mean, I, so I guess maybe further context, I went to an all girls

1235
01:10:27,945 --> 01:10:30,235
school, like most of my entire life.

1236
01:10:30,285 --> 01:10:35,215
And something I'm very grateful for there is, you know, teachers wanted you

1237
01:10:35,215 --> 01:10:37,335
to speak up and express your opinion.

1238
01:10:37,415 --> 01:10:41,295
And so I think maybe just like from kindergarten, I was in an all girls

1239
01:10:41,325 --> 01:10:43,715
school, except for a couple off years.

1240
01:10:44,995 --> 01:10:46,105
And so I think yeah.

1241
01:10:46,105 --> 01:10:50,955
Because I had that, like, early on, like, you know, LA, what you say has

1242
01:10:51,205 --> 01:10:57,235
something of matter, you know, all of that maybe worked to my benefit to enter

1243
01:10:57,275 --> 01:11:01,815
an industry where it's much more male dominated, um, I don't, just because I

1244
01:11:01,825 --> 01:11:06,605
had grown up where, you know, say, if you have something to say, um, I also.

1245
01:11:06,670 --> 01:11:12,600
Before Bitcoin, I worked at IBM, um, on their kind of STEM for girls program.

1246
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:16,330
And so, you know, I kind of came in with just the knowledge that

1247
01:11:16,380 --> 01:11:20,040
often women are less likely to enter STEM related fields and then more

1248
01:11:20,040 --> 01:11:21,700
likely to exit if they're in there.

1249
01:11:21,740 --> 01:11:26,430
So, I don't know, I think I maybe had more information going in, but it, it

1250
01:11:26,430 --> 01:11:30,460
also was never some conscious decision like, oh, Bitcoin's more male dominated.

1251
01:11:31,235 --> 01:11:32,245
I need to be aware of this.

1252
01:11:32,305 --> 01:11:35,275
Like I think Bitcoin takes everyone, it is for everyone.

1253
01:11:35,285 --> 01:11:36,305
And everyone has a place.

1254
01:11:36,335 --> 01:11:38,645
Everyone has something to contribute and add.

1255
01:11:38,735 --> 01:11:43,665
Um, so yeah, I guess the short thing is I've had a positive experience in it.

1256
01:11:43,825 --> 01:11:45,205
I'm sure it's a reality.

1257
01:11:45,255 --> 01:11:48,375
There's less women, but there still are a lot of women, um,

1258
01:11:48,415 --> 01:11:49,715
doing really incredible things.

1259
01:11:50,825 --> 01:11:51,705
Oh, absolutely.

1260
01:11:51,945 --> 01:11:55,525
But do you have any thoughts about why there are less women

1261
01:11:55,525 --> 01:11:57,005
in the space compared to men?

1262
01:11:57,015 --> 01:12:02,015
And I mean, STEM is a similar thing, but yeah, as you say, Bitcoin is for everyone.

1263
01:12:02,055 --> 01:12:03,645
So do you have any thoughts on

1264
01:12:03,745 --> 01:12:06,635
Yeah, um, a couple different things.

1265
01:12:06,835 --> 01:12:11,825
Um, I think just the obvious one, traditionally, women have not been in

1266
01:12:11,825 --> 01:12:17,505
control of wealth in a family or making investment decisions, or maybe the ones

1267
01:12:17,515 --> 01:12:19,725
really earning the wealth in the family.

1268
01:12:20,195 --> 01:12:23,585
Um, so that's one thing that probably presents itself.

1269
01:12:23,664 --> 01:12:28,824
another, in my generation, a lot of people think, okay, Bitcoin, it's only, only if

1270
01:12:28,824 --> 01:12:34,094
I study math or CS, can I participate or have something to value, you know, add.

1271
01:12:34,554 --> 01:12:40,024
And I think often we see more like men in those majors in college, studying

1272
01:12:40,024 --> 01:12:42,524
those topics in those clubs at school.

1273
01:12:43,409 --> 01:12:47,899
And so something that I always tell my friends when I talk to them as well that

1274
01:12:47,899 --> 01:12:52,109
are in majors across the campus, it's like, whatever you're interested in,

1275
01:12:52,529 --> 01:12:56,329
you know, there's a place for you in Bitcoin, like people that are studying

1276
01:12:56,339 --> 01:13:00,079
biology, like I always send them Brandon Quittem's, you know, articles, like

1277
01:13:00,109 --> 01:13:04,549
there's just Bitcoin, just, there's so many different elements to look at this.

1278
01:13:04,779 --> 01:13:08,079
Um, so yeah, I think maybe those would be my top two.

1279
01:13:08,324 --> 01:13:11,824
Um, you know, often women don't think like they're the ones to make

1280
01:13:11,864 --> 01:13:13,444
the, you know, financial decisions.

1281
01:13:13,444 --> 01:13:17,854
And because it's Bitcoin, you know, you have the coin, like, oh, it's just money.

1282
01:13:17,934 --> 01:13:19,184
Um, that's one.

1283
01:13:19,214 --> 01:13:23,894
And then just how it's often presented as something to study, like the

1284
01:13:23,894 --> 01:13:25,594
white paper, it's very technical.

1285
01:13:26,389 --> 01:13:29,359
Um, so yeah, I think those are some of the top two,

1286
01:13:30,389 --> 01:13:36,049
yeah, uh, like, if you have something to sell, which everyone does, like, anything

1287
01:13:36,049 --> 01:13:39,469
to sell, if you have anything to sell, you should be interested in Bitcoin.

1288
01:13:39,899 --> 01:13:43,059
Like, because it's the best form of money, like, simple as that.

1289
01:13:43,526 --> 01:13:49,756
yeah, but I think, yeah, again, just especially women my age need to know

1290
01:13:49,766 --> 01:13:51,426
about Bitcoin, like everyone does.

1291
01:13:51,476 --> 01:13:56,291
And I think SAFE has this great quote about like, This generation, my generation

1292
01:13:56,291 --> 01:13:59,941
is kind of the first one, perhaps not to have to earn your money twice.

1293
01:14:00,181 --> 01:14:04,621
And I think that just really resonates and like, it's um, with a lot of people

1294
01:14:04,621 --> 01:14:08,781
my age, because it's like, look, you haven't entered your full career yet.

1295
01:14:08,781 --> 01:14:10,421
You haven't made your nest egg.

1296
01:14:10,811 --> 01:14:14,861
And this can be a good thing because you will work, you know,

1297
01:14:14,931 --> 01:14:16,381
you'll earn your money once.

1298
01:14:16,511 --> 01:14:20,991
And then if you can realize the power of Bitcoin and save in Bitcoin, like

1299
01:14:21,391 --> 01:14:25,901
then you can retire and You know, find the signal in your life to, you know,

1300
01:14:25,901 --> 01:14:30,261
an earlier point and, you know, not just have to spend excess time thinking

1301
01:14:30,261 --> 01:14:32,121
about what's my investment strategy.

1302
01:14:32,754 --> 01:14:33,694
yeah, exactly.

1303
01:14:33,714 --> 01:14:38,594
I can't even begin to fathom how much better the world would be

1304
01:14:38,614 --> 01:14:41,694
if more people got to do that.

1305
01:14:42,204 --> 01:14:48,034
Like, it's just fantastic, like, people doing what they want instead of, like,

1306
01:14:48,034 --> 01:14:54,554
when you go into a government institution or a, um, Like a local municipality

1307
01:14:54,664 --> 01:14:58,774
institution, like for, for getting some bureaucratic paper or whatever it is,

1308
01:14:59,194 --> 01:15:03,964
everyone working in that concrete 1984 looking building, they look like they

1309
01:15:04,004 --> 01:15:08,964
want to kill themselves because they hate their lives, like, uh, and, uh, all of

1310
01:15:08,964 --> 01:15:12,064
that would be gone on a Bitcoin standard.

1311
01:15:12,444 --> 01:15:13,054
So, yeah.

1312
01:15:14,109 --> 01:15:14,399
Yeah.

1313
01:15:14,429 --> 01:15:19,109
So I think it's very hopeful moving into the future and yeah, I am

1314
01:15:19,309 --> 01:15:22,669
excited for others to discover it and also be hopeful about all of this.

1315
01:15:23,854 --> 01:15:24,174
Yeah.

1316
01:15:24,574 --> 01:15:28,894
Oh, uh, in the beginning of the, of the conversation, you mentioned game theory.

1317
01:15:29,357 --> 01:15:33,477
uh, recently there was a very good explanation by this YouTuber

1318
01:15:33,477 --> 01:15:38,171
called Veritasium, a very popular science YouTuber, uh, about, the

1319
01:15:38,171 --> 01:15:43,460
prisoner's dilemma, scenario and how the tactic changes depending on how

1320
01:15:43,480 --> 01:15:45,170
many times over you play the game.

1321
01:15:45,940 --> 01:15:53,108
And that was, that sort of spurred my, uh, it like got me going intellectually

1322
01:15:53,108 --> 01:15:58,468
because I love the, uh, the thought of, uh, uh, I should say that the winning

1323
01:15:58,468 --> 01:16:04,658
strategy long term is not to deceive the other guy, but to, to, to be honest and,

1324
01:16:04,678 --> 01:16:11,898
and, uh, only, only do, only be bad in retaliation to what the other party does.

1325
01:16:12,278 --> 01:16:16,798
And, and again, that, that type of, the Prisoner's Dilemma is a very basic game

1326
01:16:16,798 --> 01:16:22,440
theoretical, scenario that, that can be found everywhere in biology and, and,

1327
01:16:22,440 --> 01:16:29,880
uh, human societies, and the, the very fact that we are able That the best

1328
01:16:29,940 --> 01:16:34,390
winning strategy long term is to be nice to one another is something that

1329
01:16:34,390 --> 01:16:37,450
gives me great optimism for the future.

1330
01:16:37,530 --> 01:16:42,340
And I think concepts like these are very ill understood and

1331
01:16:42,680 --> 01:16:44,900
underestimated or underappreciated.

1332
01:16:45,486 --> 01:16:50,016
I think Bitcoin is a very good manifestation of that, like, uh, in

1333
01:16:50,016 --> 01:16:54,066
Bitcoin it's even more so that, that being honest, it's way more profitable

1334
01:16:54,066 --> 01:16:56,176
than being, than trying to deceive.

1335
01:16:56,466 --> 01:16:56,786
Yeah.

1336
01:16:56,976 --> 01:16:59,336
So I took a class, it was just called game theory.

1337
01:16:59,406 --> 01:17:05,061
Um, This past semester, and I sort of in the initial stages of thinking

1338
01:17:05,061 --> 01:17:08,871
on this, but I sort of posited that Bitcoin is how you can ultimately

1339
01:17:08,871 --> 01:17:10,181
solve the Prisoner's Dilemma.

1340
01:17:10,241 --> 01:17:14,731
And so to your point about the amount of times you play the game is critical.

1341
01:17:14,871 --> 01:17:18,711
So if there's, you know, n equals 10, like 10 periods where you're playing

1342
01:17:18,711 --> 01:17:20,921
the game, it can never be solved.

1343
01:17:20,951 --> 01:17:24,961
And I guess just maybe for context, like what is the Prisoner's Dilemma?

1344
01:17:25,315 --> 01:17:29,910
so basically, you know, You will choose an option that makes you individually

1345
01:17:29,950 --> 01:17:34,100
better off, but both players choose that, and then collectively, you're worse off.

1346
01:17:34,130 --> 01:17:35,280
Hence, the dilemma.

1347
01:17:35,768 --> 01:17:42,158
but when you are in an infinite series game, um, when you don't have a finite

1348
01:17:42,198 --> 01:17:47,258
period, there are different strategies that allow you to kind of now induce

1349
01:17:47,318 --> 01:17:49,818
cooperation where you never could before.

1350
01:17:50,048 --> 01:17:55,587
and so I found this really fascinating to think of because I feel like Bitcoin is

1351
01:17:55,627 --> 01:17:58,217
the first time we have an infinite game.

1352
01:17:58,436 --> 01:17:59,236
This is wonderful.

1353
01:17:59,236 --> 01:18:02,066
You've been having the exact same thoughts that I have.

1354
01:18:02,776 --> 01:18:06,496
Like I've had that exact same thought, like Bitcoin is the first

1355
01:18:06,496 --> 01:18:10,506
time we've had an infinite game to play that, and in an infinite game,

1356
01:18:10,506 --> 01:18:12,276
tit for tat is the best strategy.

1357
01:18:12,606 --> 01:18:15,386
Which is basically, you're honest until, until the other guy's an

1358
01:18:15,396 --> 01:18:18,206
asshole, and then you retaliate, and then you're honest again, and,

1359
01:18:18,236 --> 01:18:19,576
given the benefit of the doubt.

1360
01:18:20,081 --> 01:18:20,701
exactly.

1361
01:18:21,591 --> 01:18:21,871
Yeah.

1362
01:18:22,231 --> 01:18:25,131
So, but then I guess, you know, also we always hear that, you

1363
01:18:25,131 --> 01:18:26,271
know, question everything.

1364
01:18:26,331 --> 01:18:29,941
And so then, I don't know, can I be interested in your thoughts on this?

1365
01:18:30,921 --> 01:18:35,021
Like, are we correct in saying that Bitcoin is an infinite game?

1366
01:18:35,361 --> 01:18:37,661
Like, is that a correct assumption?

1367
01:18:40,376 --> 01:18:46,509
I think maybe, this is semantics, uh, but, from my understanding of the, the,

1368
01:18:46,829 --> 01:18:51,359
playing the, the Prisoner's Dilemma scenario over and over again, the game

1369
01:18:51,359 --> 01:18:57,974
does not, Have to actually be infinite because nobody knows if it, infinity even

1370
01:18:57,974 --> 01:19:05,114
exists, but, but it needs to be perceived as infinite as possibly infinite from

1371
01:19:05,114 --> 01:19:07,924
the, uh, viewpoint of the, the player.

1372
01:19:08,804 --> 01:19:14,914
And, uh, if you don't know, uh, so, so the only, if you don't know when the,

1373
01:19:14,914 --> 01:19:20,754
when the game is going to end, the best way to act is as if it won't ever end.

1374
01:19:21,834 --> 01:19:23,344
So that's all that's needed.

1375
01:19:23,539 --> 01:19:28,249
Uh, so, so, you don't really need to take infinity, actual infinity into

1376
01:19:28,249 --> 01:19:32,419
account, you only need the players to subjectively think that there's

1377
01:19:32,489 --> 01:19:34,619
potentially no ending to this thing.

1378
01:19:34,999 --> 01:19:35,259
Mm hmm.

1379
01:19:36,079 --> 01:19:36,719
Yeah, yeah.

1380
01:19:36,819 --> 01:19:40,589
And I guess, so another thing that I only figured out because I got this

1381
01:19:40,589 --> 01:19:43,979
answer wrong on the exam, like I didn't really realize and I'm still

1382
01:19:43,979 --> 01:19:49,049
kind of grappling with this, um, but the assurance game, like, and

1383
01:19:49,049 --> 01:19:50,619
the modified assurance insurance.

1384
01:19:50,699 --> 01:19:51,069
game.

1385
01:19:51,239 --> 01:19:55,029
I don't know if this came up maybe in the YouTube that you're listening to as well.

1386
01:19:55,469 --> 01:20:00,199
Um, and I don't know if I could even do a great job of explaining it, but basically

1387
01:20:00,219 --> 01:20:04,069
where I'm going with this is it matters, like if you have different games and

1388
01:20:04,069 --> 01:20:08,579
you're playing for different amounts of time, if the prisoner's dilemma comes

1389
01:20:08,899 --> 01:20:14,719
first or after, like before or after, like the insurance game, when you, sorry,

1390
01:20:15,039 --> 01:20:18,939
when you kind of introduce a different game into the mix, that can also.

1391
01:20:19,359 --> 01:20:22,669
Change whether or not you can still induce cooperation.

1392
01:20:22,849 --> 01:20:24,419
So, let me say this a different way.

1393
01:20:24,859 --> 01:20:28,479
If there's something prior on, like with the trigger strategy or tip

1394
01:20:28,549 --> 01:20:33,869
for dat, um, you need, like, to have that in order for you to have

1395
01:20:33,909 --> 01:20:36,059
cooperation in the prisoner's dilemma.

1396
01:20:36,379 --> 01:20:37,589
But let's say you didn't.

1397
01:20:38,089 --> 01:20:40,069
If I'm getting this right, then it doesn't matter.

1398
01:20:40,674 --> 01:20:44,514
So I guess, sorry, I did a poor job of explaining all of that, um, but I think

1399
01:20:44,514 --> 01:20:47,624
it's also interesting when you bring in other items into the mix, how it

1400
01:20:47,624 --> 01:20:49,974
changes this ability to have cooperation.

1401
01:20:51,116 --> 01:20:57,066
Absolutely, I, I don't know if I know what the, like, the What mixing the insurance

1402
01:20:57,066 --> 01:21:00,716
game and the president's dilemma, like, I don't believe I've seen that scenario.

1403
01:21:00,856 --> 01:21:04,756
What I do believe is that if you do the test over and over again, you'll

1404
01:21:04,756 --> 01:21:06,156
eventually get the answer right.

1405
01:21:07,031 --> 01:21:10,871
Yeah, I need to go back and, the only way I can, I feel like everyone does

1406
01:21:10,871 --> 01:21:13,991
this, but if you actually write on a topic, you're much better at explaining

1407
01:21:14,271 --> 01:21:15,631
it or understanding it yourself.

1408
01:21:16,061 --> 01:21:17,401
And yeah, I need to write.

1409
01:21:18,620 --> 01:21:21,370
Writing is good for talking and talking is good for writing.

1410
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:22,950
Um, absolutely.

1411
01:21:23,350 --> 01:21:31,060
And it's, it's great to, to, to just box, to get a sort of flow to your thoughts

1412
01:21:31,090 --> 01:21:34,320
that wasn't there before you, before you started writing your thoughts down.

1413
01:21:34,370 --> 01:21:35,850
I can highly recommend it.

1414
01:21:36,645 --> 01:21:38,755
Just to organize your chaotic brain.

1415
01:21:39,705 --> 01:21:39,895
Yes.

1416
01:21:40,105 --> 01:21:40,325
Yes.

1417
01:21:41,605 --> 01:21:44,905
So, yeah, game theory I think is fascinating, and something I, I'd

1418
01:21:44,905 --> 01:21:46,025
like to learn a lot more about.

1419
01:21:46,055 --> 01:21:50,115
I didn't initially realize how much econ math can be in it.

1420
01:21:50,285 --> 01:21:55,105
Um, I took this course for the cognitive science course code that it was attached

1421
01:21:55,105 --> 01:21:59,505
to, and there was a lot of like econ math in it that I was not so excellent at.

1422
01:21:59,665 --> 01:22:03,785
But, um, I, I found the, you know, concepts and the theories fascinating.

1423
01:22:04,635 --> 01:22:04,915
Yeah.

1424
01:22:04,955 --> 01:22:05,305
Yeah.

1425
01:22:05,635 --> 01:22:07,045
Uh, what, what's that called?

1426
01:22:07,045 --> 01:22:12,465
My, my favorite, um, maths, uh, uh, experiment that you, with the, um, when

1427
01:22:12,465 --> 01:22:16,295
you have three doors and there's a game and there's a prize between the three

1428
01:22:16,295 --> 01:22:21,194
doors, I don't remember the, the name of the game escapes me at the moment,

1429
01:22:21,204 --> 01:22:26,724
but, um, uh, anyway, so you're, you're choosing one door, the, um, the, the

1430
01:22:26,724 --> 01:22:31,326
host of the game show says that, uh, the, It's not behind this door, and

1431
01:22:31,326 --> 01:22:36,006
removes one of the doors, uh, one of the other two doors, and then, then you get

1432
01:22:36,016 --> 01:22:40,596
to choose if you're sticking with your first choice, or if you move to the, the

1433
01:22:40,596 --> 01:22:45,246
other door that's still left, and the correct play is to move to the next door,

1434
01:22:45,246 --> 01:22:50,236
because it's, the chance that it's behind that door is two thirds, and that's very

1435
01:22:50,236 --> 01:22:55,046
counterintuitive, and there's a lot to that too, if you play that game over and

1436
01:22:55,046 --> 01:22:57,156
over again and stuff, like, uh, yeah.

1437
01:22:57,991 --> 01:22:59,831
And where the point of measurement is.

1438
01:22:59,831 --> 01:23:00,101
And

1439
01:23:00,386 --> 01:23:00,636
Yeah.

1440
01:23:00,916 --> 01:23:01,136
Yeah.

1441
01:23:01,246 --> 01:23:02,976
I think is that the Monty Hall

1442
01:23:03,501 --> 01:23:04,211
Monty Hall.

1443
01:23:04,251 --> 01:23:05,141
That's, that's it.

1444
01:23:05,171 --> 01:23:05,371
Yeah.

1445
01:23:05,371 --> 01:23:05,631
Yeah.

1446
01:23:06,296 --> 01:23:06,626
Yeah.

1447
01:23:06,836 --> 01:23:07,236
Yeah.

1448
01:23:07,396 --> 01:23:07,686
Yeah.

1449
01:23:07,851 --> 01:23:11,061
there, and there are infinite number of variations on that as well.

1450
01:23:11,071 --> 01:23:16,601
But yeah, I remember that from, from way back when I first read about game theory.

1451
01:23:16,891 --> 01:23:17,181
Yeah.

1452
01:23:17,351 --> 01:23:17,601
Yeah.

1453
01:23:18,011 --> 01:23:18,281
Yes.

1454
01:23:18,731 --> 01:23:19,351
Fascinating.

1455
01:23:19,471 --> 01:23:22,351
I feel like when I sit in those classes, my brain is actually like

1456
01:23:22,371 --> 01:23:24,281
thinking and working and I don't know.

1457
01:23:24,291 --> 01:23:27,311
I just feel excited about learning and in that topic.

1458
01:23:28,301 --> 01:23:30,821
Here's a game theory test question for you.

1459
01:23:31,381 --> 01:23:35,961
Uh, so last Bitcoin block was nine minutes ago, or let's look it up.

1460
01:23:36,021 --> 01:23:38,491
Like, uh, it was actually five minutes ago.

1461
01:23:39,251 --> 01:23:41,221
So last block was five minutes ago.

1462
01:23:41,751 --> 01:23:46,101
Uh, on average, how long does it take to find the next block from

1463
01:23:46,121 --> 01:23:47,961
this point in time right now?

1464
01:23:48,781 --> 01:23:52,461
Well, on average every 10 minutes, but I think I got the,

1465
01:23:52,731 --> 01:23:54,051
or I did get the question right

1466
01:23:54,711 --> 01:23:59,891
Yeah, so like, from now, five minutes have passed since the last block.

1467
01:24:00,221 --> 01:24:01,181
So how many minutes?

1468
01:24:01,981 --> 01:24:03,061
about another five minutes.

1469
01:24:03,941 --> 01:24:04,771
I don't

1470
01:24:04,921 --> 01:24:05,761
the wrong answer.

1471
01:24:06,241 --> 01:24:06,921
I fell into it.

1472
01:24:08,226 --> 01:24:08,956
That's the trap.

1473
01:24:09,246 --> 01:24:12,056
It's always 10 minutes to the next book.

1474
01:24:12,876 --> 01:24:13,846
So even, yeah,

1475
01:24:15,166 --> 01:24:15,916
No, that was good.

1476
01:24:16,106 --> 01:24:16,946
Now I'll never forget.

1477
01:24:18,606 --> 01:24:19,236
that's good.

1478
01:24:20,426 --> 01:24:23,786
I feel like I've contributed to humankind here.

1479
01:24:26,086 --> 01:24:26,386
Yes.

1480
01:24:26,416 --> 01:24:30,786
No, but I mean, to your point, you know, why we're having this conversation

1481
01:24:30,786 --> 01:24:33,926
and you're in your conversation with Jeff and you were talking about,

1482
01:24:34,436 --> 01:24:38,096
Oh, you know, we don't even know how our actions influence others.

1483
01:24:38,266 --> 01:24:40,946
And then I think I left a comment like, Oh, like, you know, I listened,

1484
01:24:40,946 --> 01:24:42,826
like I've benefited from this.

1485
01:24:42,896 --> 01:24:47,196
Like, um, so it will, like we all do little things in our day that we don't

1486
01:24:47,196 --> 01:24:48,486
know how they'll impact someone else.

1487
01:24:49,196 --> 01:24:53,836
No, uh, by the way, if you, if you like that episode with Jeff, we

1488
01:24:53,846 --> 01:24:56,236
have a couple of other episodes that you need to listen to.

1489
01:24:56,236 --> 01:24:57,786
One hasn't come out yet.

1490
01:24:58,246 --> 01:25:03,456
That is with our friend that is about, uh, cognitive science and, uh, and,

1491
01:25:03,456 --> 01:25:08,406
uh, the, the concept of consciousness and, uh, well, uh, if we have free

1492
01:25:08,406 --> 01:25:13,316
will or not and stuff like that from a strict neuroscientific point of view.

1493
01:25:13,606 --> 01:25:16,036
And I definitely recommend that one.

1494
01:25:16,546 --> 01:25:20,766
And what was the other one that sort of, um, added on to the Jeff episode,

1495
01:25:20,806 --> 01:25:23,396
uh, Luke, which was the other one?

1496
01:25:24,251 --> 01:25:27,251
Well, the Volker episode was the one I was thinking of, so, uh, you must

1497
01:25:27,251 --> 01:25:28,291
be going somewhere else with this.

1498
01:25:28,856 --> 01:25:32,966
Uh, no, maybe I was just thinking about the Falkor episode as well.

1499
01:25:33,601 --> 01:25:35,281
That was the most on the, on the nose,

1500
01:25:35,516 --> 01:25:38,896
Oh, well, Angelo Morgan Summers, that, uh, we, we got into

1501
01:25:38,896 --> 01:25:40,336
that stuff with him as well.

1502
01:25:40,716 --> 01:25:41,046
Yeah.

1503
01:25:41,526 --> 01:25:45,136
So, so those two episodes are highly recommended, especially

1504
01:25:45,146 --> 01:25:46,376
handpicked for you, Ella.

1505
01:25:46,896 --> 01:25:47,366
Thank you.

1506
01:25:47,836 --> 01:25:52,806
Yeah, I mean, I'm not educated enough to talk about free will, I don't think right

1507
01:25:52,806 --> 01:25:57,616
now, but at one of the ends of the classes I took this semester, it presented the

1508
01:25:57,616 --> 01:26:02,676
idea of instead of free will, it's like free won't, because we have that delay in

1509
01:26:02,676 --> 01:26:06,396
perception and then also in consciousness, like, you know, milliseconds.

1510
01:26:07,956 --> 01:26:08,976
free, free what?

1511
01:26:08,996 --> 01:26:09,776
Free won't?

1512
01:26:10,076 --> 01:26:10,916
Free won't.

1513
01:26:11,096 --> 01:26:14,756
Um, so it was this study, I think the man's name was.

1514
01:26:15,146 --> 01:26:21,056
Benjamin Libet, if I'm pronouncing that right, um, and so, okay, I'm

1515
01:26:21,056 --> 01:26:25,066
trying to get this back from memory, but basically it was saying that

1516
01:26:25,627 --> 01:26:30,117
some of the order that this happens, like the decision comes first and

1517
01:26:30,117 --> 01:26:31,917
then you have consciousness later.

1518
01:26:31,987 --> 01:26:32,207
yeah.

1519
01:26:32,792 --> 01:26:37,432
And so he was saying, like, there's a very small window of time, like, I think it's

1520
01:26:37,432 --> 01:26:43,512
like 100 milliseconds, um, where you could be able to exercise that conscious free

1521
01:26:43,512 --> 01:26:48,792
will, and, but his kind of point with he was saying is like, maybe we don't so much

1522
01:26:48,792 --> 01:26:50,982
have free will, but we have free won't.

1523
01:26:51,222 --> 01:26:54,472
Like, maybe in those 100 milliseconds, we can just, like, if the decision

1524
01:26:54,472 --> 01:26:58,552
has already happened, it's like, we decide to not do that or not,

1525
01:26:58,562 --> 01:26:59,782
if I'm getting this all right.

1526
01:27:00,162 --> 01:27:02,652
Um, but that was something that I, I learned at like

1527
01:27:02,652 --> 01:27:03,752
the end of one of my classes.

1528
01:27:03,752 --> 01:27:05,342
Um,

1529
01:27:05,957 --> 01:27:11,897
that's fascinating because Folker's on the side of you know, that that window

1530
01:27:11,897 --> 01:27:17,627
of time really doesn't exist because like, so we can't really influence our

1531
01:27:17,627 --> 01:27:22,097
consciousness is not the mechanism that influences this stuff, our consciousness

1532
01:27:22,097 --> 01:27:23,437
is just something that plays out.

1533
01:27:23,797 --> 01:27:29,087
And I heard Yoni mentioned a, uh, a very interesting thing on Prince's Pod, uh,

1534
01:27:29,097 --> 01:27:34,797
Luke, uh, about the same topic, and, uh, he's big into psychedelics and all this

1535
01:27:34,867 --> 01:27:41,377
stuff, so, so his theory is that, uh, or he mentioned a theory that is actually

1536
01:27:41,377 --> 01:27:45,722
is, someone had this theory, I don't know, I don't know who, but, where it

1537
01:27:45,722 --> 01:27:51,582
came from, but the theory is that, uh, alright, so the universe is, seems to

1538
01:27:51,592 --> 01:27:58,102
be made up of electromagnetism and, uh, fundamental particles and this, these

1539
01:27:58,152 --> 01:28:02,772
things that we call, you know, objects and stuff and light and colors and

1540
01:28:02,792 --> 01:28:08,082
all of this is, is just how our brains interpret this other underlying thing.

1541
01:28:08,992 --> 01:28:13,082
And consciousness itself might be also just one of these

1542
01:28:13,112 --> 01:28:15,342
underlying things that we tap into.

1543
01:28:15,982 --> 01:28:21,362
So we're, when we're experiencing, uh, uh, subjective consciousness, that's

1544
01:28:21,372 --> 01:28:25,612
just us tapping into something that was already there around us everywhere.

1545
01:28:25,882 --> 01:28:30,322
So, so it might just be one of the And there it gets into hippie

1546
01:28:30,322 --> 01:28:32,182
territory, but, but I love it.

1547
01:28:33,462 --> 01:28:34,532
It's fun to talk about.

1548
01:28:35,052 --> 01:28:35,732
Uh, yeah.

1549
01:28:36,297 --> 01:28:39,487
So I'm looking forward to talking to you and Jeff about that on

1550
01:28:39,487 --> 01:28:40,927
Madeira over a couple of ponchos.

1551
01:28:41,377 --> 01:28:41,677
Yeah,

1552
01:28:42,092 --> 01:28:42,432
Thank you.

1553
01:28:42,432 --> 01:28:43,872
Yeah, I think it's fascinating.

1554
01:28:43,932 --> 01:28:48,117
And, you know, whether the window or not exists, I guess, to Bring it all back

1555
01:28:48,117 --> 01:28:53,237
to Bitcoin and, you know, your point about how Bitcoin removes the noise and,

1556
01:28:53,407 --> 01:28:54,937
you know, the static and all of that.

1557
01:28:55,527 --> 01:28:58,977
If, and this is what I'm interested in with the cognitive science, like if

1558
01:28:58,977 --> 01:29:03,657
there's so much happening and we have so little maybe room for correcting or

1559
01:29:03,657 --> 01:29:07,927
not, if we do, then, you know, maybe we need all the help we can get in

1560
01:29:07,937 --> 01:29:10,162
the world around us to try to like.

1561
01:29:10,312 --> 01:29:14,842
Like, do everything we can to just, you know, find the more, like, find, signal,

1562
01:29:14,842 --> 01:29:16,542
act in the best interest that we can.

1563
01:29:16,682 --> 01:29:21,122
Um, I don't know if I said that quite so well, but, um, even in conversation,

1564
01:29:21,152 --> 01:29:25,122
like, there's, we miss so much, you know, like, I have to produce a

1565
01:29:25,122 --> 01:29:27,232
response before you even stop talking.

1566
01:29:27,342 --> 01:29:32,982
And so, I think just Like we have a lot of constraints on us and how we

1567
01:29:32,982 --> 01:29:36,412
interact with information, interpret information, remember information,

1568
01:29:36,432 --> 01:29:40,482
that if we can just, you know, live on a more honest ledger and more honest

1569
01:29:40,582 --> 01:29:44,872
system, like that just has to be a net positive and a benefit moving forward.

1570
01:29:45,498 --> 01:29:46,338
absolutely.

1571
01:29:46,338 --> 01:29:50,568
I think that's beautifully put and, uh, yeah, that's it.

1572
01:29:50,638 --> 01:29:55,058
Remove the noise, make everyone honest, and everything becomes better.

1573
01:29:56,023 --> 01:29:57,013
Honesty for the win.

1574
01:29:57,433 --> 01:29:57,883
FFS.

1575
01:29:58,313 --> 01:29:58,603
Yeah.

1576
01:30:02,763 --> 01:30:03,323
All right.

1577
01:30:03,813 --> 01:30:09,033
Luke, do you have any I think this is a fantastic spot to

1578
01:30:09,723 --> 01:30:11,123
wrap this up on, I think.

1579
01:30:11,333 --> 01:30:13,353
Do you have any more questions for Ella?

1580
01:30:13,683 --> 01:30:15,573
yeah, yeah, I didn't have anything else.

1581
01:30:15,573 --> 01:30:16,943
It's been a great conversation.

1582
01:30:16,973 --> 01:30:20,483
So, where would you like to direct our viewers and listeners to, to

1583
01:30:20,523 --> 01:30:22,903
find out more about you and what you're working on these days?

1584
01:30:23,273 --> 01:30:23,813
Thank you, Luke.

1585
01:30:23,813 --> 01:30:24,093
Yes.

1586
01:30:24,153 --> 01:30:28,103
Um, so you can just go, I think the best place is my link tree or Twitter.

1587
01:30:28,173 --> 01:30:33,493
Um, link tree, it's just LHUF, um, Twitter, 21MM for the 21st.

1588
01:30:34,033 --> 01:30:38,383
Um, and then once you're there, you'll have easy links to GenerationBitcoin,

1589
01:30:38,383 --> 01:30:39,673
Bitcoin Students Network, all of that.

1590
01:30:40,233 --> 01:30:41,373
But thank you, Knut and Luke.

1591
01:30:42,113 --> 01:30:42,333
Yeah.

1592
01:30:42,933 --> 01:30:43,803
Thank you, Ella.

1593
01:30:43,843 --> 01:30:48,263
And if you've been listening, don't forget to like, subscribe, and buy a new hat.

1594
01:30:48,653 --> 01:30:52,133
And we'll see you on the internets and on Madeira.

1595
01:30:53,888 --> 01:30:54,458
Take care.

1596
01:30:54,508 --> 01:30:56,208
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.

1597
01:30:56,538 --> 01:30:57,218
Excelsior!