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Mags, welcome to the Freedom Footprint Show.

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Thank you Glad to be here.

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Great to have you here.

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How are you enjoying the conference so

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I love it.

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Oh my God.

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So,

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It's just like everyone the same on all the podcasts.

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It's like everyone the same at all the conferences in North America, which is

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great because you make a lot of friends.

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But here it's like there's people coming from Africa, right?

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Which we don't normally get the chance to interact with.

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And there's so many exciting mining projects that are opening up there

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that are like, I think the most interesting things in mining is the

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places that have no electricity.

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Getting re electrified and like changing people's lives.

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So being able to interact with those folks and the folks that really

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need Bitcoin because they don't have access to bank accounts, right.

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What's happening with a Feddy over there.

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So being able to interact with those folks is what makes a

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conference like this special.

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Plus like Prague is beautiful.

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So I'm a huge fan of the prodcom.

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and you have roots over here, right?

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Yes, and I get to visit my grandparents after.

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So another bonus.

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All right.

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Can you give us the TLDR on Mags?

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On mags, Yes.

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Mikena.

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Grov.

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Whoa, very nice.

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Professional.

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know?

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No, that

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No, no,

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it's fine.

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I, I, I, self doxed, which, in retrospect, maybe it wasn't the best thing.

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My partner's always like, great, people are going to come

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to our house and murder us.

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No, but you know what I mean?

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It's

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like, what have you brought on us?

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Cause you love attention.

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So, I, the age of five.

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We escaped communism.

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I did when I was a little kid, but I was, my parents escaped Poland.

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Um, I mean, communism is never great, but I remember them telling me stories

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about how, you know, you would line up for five hours, uh, to, like, two days on

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Christmas to get, like, a Christmas ham.

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So, you know, there's stuff like that.

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And I remember growing up to, um, When I would later visit, uh, and like,

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I would look up the money, right?

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Cause we had a period of hyperinflation in Poland, right?

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For a little kid, it didn't matter.

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You're like, you see this like money and you're like, Oh, wow.

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Look at all these zeros.

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Or you're like, Ooh, this is great.

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It's like, no, it's not great.

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You don't understand why it's not great.

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But, um, you know, there's a, there was a lot of really negative things.

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But, you know, and I think that's why the reason why I start with

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Poland is it's my story, right?

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It's my Bitcoin story.

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Um, I think everybody needs to find their story.

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Like, yes, I started because number go up.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's how,

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how some of us get into it.

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But then you you go down that rabbit hole, and you find those intersections

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of why it really means something to you.

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And why it means something for me is because my parents packed everything

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they had into In their car, right?

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And we had like a fiat car, as in

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yeah.

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Yeah.

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The, it's in the car, Brad.

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Those, those cars were tiny, so you can't take a lot of things.

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And the government, the government messed up.

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They gave everybody a passport.

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Normally, they would give like one parent and a child, right?

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They would never give the whole family unit.

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But it was like winning the lottery.

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They gave everybody a passport.

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So we're like, we're going on

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vacation, right?

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So we arrive at the border.

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They've got their, you know, big guns.

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And my parents are like, going on, you know, like a trip.

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And the lady looks at them and she like looks in the car and she's like,

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you're not coming back, are you?

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They're like, do we lie?

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Like, no, no, we're not.

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And she's like, just go, just go.

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Right.

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And they're still like worried.

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Are they going to start shooting at us?

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What?

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So, you know, basically everything that you can, it's not the same as

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like someone running away from a war, but it's still like, this is

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our life and that's all we can take.

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And maybe it might get taken at the border.

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So what can you take across the border?

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Right.

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And so looking at that story,

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it's like, that's, that's, that's Part of like understanding, you know,

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assets that you can move with you.

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And Another,

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important touch point is my grandma, uh, from my dad's side, she had this beautiful

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garden, beautiful house, like family legacy that, you know, typically goes

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through generations, that gets passed on.

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But after the war and the borders fell, uh, Poland's border shifted and,

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you know, government strike of a pen.

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Shifted, and she lost, like she had to leave the country because

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it became, Tarnopol became Ukraine,

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and they couldn't, like she couldn't keep her house, she just lost it,

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right, and they kicked them out, and so she lost her childhood

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home, There's no way to get back.

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And also like that, like I said, generational wealth.

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Like, I mean, we didn't have much, but at least there was house and land.

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And

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typically those are the types of assets that you can own, right?

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So that, um, again, same thing.

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Can it be confiscated by governments?

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Your wealth?

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Well, sometimes it can.

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Um, traditional assets, right?

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But not Bitcoin.

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No, there were no 12 magic words back

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There was no 12 magic words.

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The words would have been, please, please, please, please, please,

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please, please, like, yeah.

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cash or something.

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And then the last touch point is on my, um, my other grandparents side.

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So my grandpa's grandpa, he was an artist and actually he's a well known artist

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if you look at like Polish art history.

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Um, you know, his paintings are sometimes sold in art galleries or at auctions.

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And so my grandpa had some of his art in their house, but during

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the war, there was bombings.

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So sometimes you had to just leave the city because it was unsafe, so they

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locked the house, left for several days or weeks, but when they came back,

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you know, the door had been broken down, all the paintings were gone.

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And then he would, you know, walk around the city, like, after that,

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and in, in art galleries, like art stores, he would see the paintings.

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And it's no different than, like, During the Holocaust, like, there was

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a lot of stolen property taken from Jewish people that it's like, this

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is mine, but I don't have it anymore.

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And it's not like it's on the blockchain, right?

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Like, blockchain is forever.

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It's permanent transaction that you can see that it changes ownership.

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Like, There is no proof that this was yours, uh, and you

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can't, you can't get it back.

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Even if you say like, yes, this was, it's like, who are you, right?

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So it's really sad.

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And sometimes I thought about it, I was like, oh man, I'd love to

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buy him one, but they're not cheap.

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No, I mean, theft is theft, regardless of who's, who the perpetrator is.

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I mean, it's still theft.

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Yeah.

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So, you know, that's, that's what Bitcoin is to me.

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Like those, those meaningful stories is why, uh, I, one of the reasons I

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participate and, and I think too, you know, when, when you, when you try to

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bring somebody else into Bitcoin, I think you have to try to understand them

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a little bit and what's their History, because there might be these kind of

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touch points that resonate with that particular person rather than like,

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oh, yes, inflation sucks, doesn't it?

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That might resonate with them too, but maybe not in the same way as someone

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who had went through hyperinflation, for example, or someone who, you

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know, whose family escaped somewhere.

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And there's always something, and it's worth finding out

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their story to do that, I think.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And this is so funny because I'm sorry your parents picked a country

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that would eventually turn communist.

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And like, but the, but the touch point here is that my dear friend

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Luke here had to flee Canada for the same reason that you once fled

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Well, I didn't have to.

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Let's not over dramatize it, but

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Yeah.

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Maybe it's not.

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Maybe I'm over exaggerating.

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It's not actually super comparable, but there's a touch of truth in it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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damn it.

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I'm, I'm, I am allowed to go back to Canada.

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Yeah.

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Allow.

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But you don't want to.

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gotta find a third country.

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I better not be communist.

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But I actually live in like the most communist part of Canada.

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Like we don't even have a conservative party.

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It's that far left

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in

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part will that be?

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I should, I should know

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It's basically like California, right?

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All right.

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All right.

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Yeah,

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I've got a bunch of family on Vancouver Island and, uh, you know, Vancouver

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and everything and it's, yeah, yeah.

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But I mean, I mean, BC is nice.

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It's uh, it's a

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I know, it's so hard to leave.

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Like, I'm, I'm near the ocean.

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There's beautiful

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mountains, like,

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No, it looks, it looks awesome.

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at some point maybe it'll be.

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So we, but we were talking about before, uh, you know, in the, in the, in the

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car ride over here that, uh, yeah, you, you've got the dual passport, right?

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Um, your

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B.

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exactly, exactly.

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Well, then that's the whole point, right?

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I mean, hopefully you don't need a third one eventually, but, uh, yeah,

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But where?

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well, exactly.

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I mean, maybe El Salvador, right.

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But, uh,

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not ready yet.

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I visited El Salvador.

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I don't think, like, they're making amazing progress, but some of the things,

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like, the, you know, the electricity grid isn't, like, fully reliable yet.

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But like I said, you know, they're shoring it up.

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They're using some of the investment from mining to do that.

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But, like, right now, today, I don't think it's ready.

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My partner works in tech and, you know, He, there's a lot of stuff that gets

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shipped to our house, like through Amazon Prime, for example, or UPS.

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Um, and I was talking to some of the folks there.

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The logistics is not built up.

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It can take weeks uh, to, to get goods.

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It's, it's just not tenable for

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But, but, uh, Argentinian passport seems like, uh, one of

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the better options right now.

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I was talking to Luke Mickich earlier today and uh, apparently

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the, yeah exactly, the rule is you have to stay there for six

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months for two years in a row.

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uh, like straight two years.

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no, I

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Oh, oh,

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Six months per year, two years in a row.

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Is it six months per year?

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what he said.

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So, and then you get it without having to pay, like, a

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million dollars to get it with.

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Right.

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Because it's a bit, is it three Bitcoin for, no,

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That's uh, Antigua, I

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Bitcoin in El Salvador?

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something

255
00:09:49,909 --> 00:09:50,709
number of bitcoin.

256
00:09:50,929 --> 00:09:51,259
Yes.

257
00:09:51,524 --> 00:09:52,584
and I think it's enough to

258
00:09:52,599 --> 00:09:52,629
right.

259
00:09:52,699 --> 00:09:53,089
You're right.

260
00:09:53,089 --> 00:09:53,609
It's a million

261
00:09:53,614 --> 00:09:54,664
in the country, yeah, something.

262
00:09:54,674 --> 00:09:59,144
But the, uh, the payment for the super duper passport or whatever, Max Keiser

263
00:09:59,154 --> 00:10:02,054
passport or whatever they call it, it's like a million dollars, I think.

264
00:10:02,227 --> 00:10:04,957
We'll say is the meat in Argentina.

265
00:10:05,007 --> 00:10:08,177
I visited Argentina for the first time actually this February.

266
00:10:09,067 --> 00:10:12,117
Uh, oh my God, it is ruined meat.

267
00:10:12,157 --> 00:10:13,947
Asado, like the barbecue.

268
00:10:13,967 --> 00:10:16,277
It's just, I, everything is grass fed.

269
00:10:16,287 --> 00:10:19,297
I was literally eating butter, like raw butter, like.

270
00:10:19,502 --> 00:10:20,442
It's so good.

271
00:10:21,682 --> 00:10:24,852
Grass fed is such a weird term to anyone but Americans.

272
00:10:25,402 --> 00:10:28,322
Like because we don't feed cows anything else but grass.

273
00:10:28,322 --> 00:10:29,512
What else would they eat?

274
00:10:29,552 --> 00:10:33,552
And yeah, it's in the US, they feed them corn, like, yeah, but it's a cow.

275
00:10:33,852 --> 00:10:35,092
Why the hell would you feed it corn?

276
00:10:35,652 --> 00:10:36,242
But you know what?

277
00:10:36,332 --> 00:10:37,802
So I talked to a number of Bitcoiners.

278
00:10:37,982 --> 00:10:38,922
I went to a Bitcoin meetup.

279
00:10:38,922 --> 00:10:40,302
They held an Asado in my honor.

280
00:10:40,302 --> 00:10:40,892
It was so nice.

281
00:10:41,342 --> 00:10:43,292
Um, but, so, but they were saying, what?

282
00:10:43,562 --> 00:10:44,142
Why you laugh?

283
00:10:44,932 --> 00:10:46,912
no, no, it's your laughter that's contagious.

284
00:10:47,742 --> 00:10:51,847
So, um, I was talking to the Bitcoiners and they're saying like

285
00:10:51,857 --> 00:10:53,317
it's becoming more challenging.

286
00:10:53,317 --> 00:10:55,767
So I know everyone's very optimistic about Malay, right?

287
00:10:55,807 --> 00:10:57,147
Like he's putting in these changes.

288
00:10:57,347 --> 00:11:03,537
He's cutting government quite a lot, but it's it, the inflation even

289
00:11:03,547 --> 00:11:05,817
like between November and February.

290
00:11:05,817 --> 00:11:09,422
And it will be like, February when I went there, because he, he got rid

291
00:11:09,422 --> 00:11:12,572
of all the subsidies, including like, for example, transportation, right?

292
00:11:12,802 --> 00:11:13,542
It's a huge country.

293
00:11:13,542 --> 00:11:14,602
It's like Canada, right?

294
00:11:14,842 --> 00:11:18,502
So when you're transporting food, once he got rid of the subsidy, things like,

295
00:11:18,502 --> 00:11:24,407
for example, rice, it went from 60 cents to 2 and 50 cents for a kilo of rice.

296
00:11:24,407 --> 00:11:26,617
Like, Their people make 300 a month.

297
00:11:26,617 --> 00:11:27,077
It's

298
00:11:27,267 --> 00:11:29,037
Yeah, but what, what was he supposed to do?

299
00:11:29,087 --> 00:11:33,257
Like, uh, he needed to, it was a band aid and it needed to be ripped off.

300
00:11:33,297 --> 00:11:36,707
Like, like there's no, there's no smooth way of, of getting out of that.

301
00:11:36,817 --> 00:11:37,127
Yeah.

302
00:11:37,167 --> 00:11:37,887
I get what you're saying.

303
00:11:37,887 --> 00:11:40,457
But so I worked a decade in government actually.

304
00:11:40,497 --> 00:11:43,607
Um, we're just going to go all over.

305
00:11:43,697 --> 00:11:44,447
So I worked,

306
00:11:44,667 --> 00:11:45,237
This does not

307
00:11:45,237 --> 00:11:48,937
I'm a reformed government worker before Bitcoin.

308
00:11:49,307 --> 00:11:49,987
All right.

309
00:11:50,057 --> 00:11:54,277
so, so I worked on, mostly I worked on low carbon economic transition.

310
00:11:54,277 --> 00:11:57,772
And, uh, A lot of that is decarbonizing our energy system.

311
00:11:57,792 --> 00:12:00,312
I also worked on electricity and electricity pricing.

312
00:12:01,082 --> 00:12:04,542
But part of that file was energy affordability and energy poverty.

313
00:12:04,862 --> 00:12:07,802
So, so there's like a certain level of assistance.

314
00:12:07,802 --> 00:12:10,462
And I do think like, I know Bitcoiners talk about like,

315
00:12:10,502 --> 00:12:12,002
Oh, we need to cut everything.

316
00:12:12,002 --> 00:12:14,902
And I'm like, there are, you know, there will be people that

317
00:12:14,902 --> 00:12:16,102
fall through the cracks, right?

318
00:12:16,102 --> 00:12:20,692
Whether you're disabled or like, Sometimes you need a little bit of help.

319
00:12:20,692 --> 00:12:23,572
I'm not talking about the folks that like just abuse the system, but I

320
00:12:23,592 --> 00:12:27,752
don't, I do think as a society, we should take care of some people.

321
00:12:28,082 --> 00:12:33,232
I think we go a little overboard, but you know, there is like someone who has

322
00:12:33,232 --> 00:12:37,482
cancer who, you know, like, like we used to get letters to the minister, right?

323
00:12:37,482 --> 00:12:39,052
And some of them like kind of stick with you.

324
00:12:39,052 --> 00:12:43,122
They're like, my wife has cancer and electricity has prices have risen.

325
00:12:43,122 --> 00:12:44,332
So I'm choosing between.

326
00:12:44,767 --> 00:12:49,437
Food, and electricity pricing, right, to feed my wife, because I want to feed her

327
00:12:49,567 --> 00:12:51,847
quality food so that she can, you know,

328
00:12:52,147 --> 00:12:56,217
But still, I think the, uh, I, I, I don't think there's a libertarian

329
00:12:56,217 --> 00:13:00,927
on earth that doesn't believe that society should take care of everyone.

330
00:13:01,297 --> 00:13:06,857
It's just that, like, we're against the forcing people to do that.

331
00:13:06,947 --> 00:13:08,447
Like, it should be voluntary.

332
00:13:08,547 --> 00:13:11,587
But do you think there will be enough people that volunteer, is I guess

333
00:13:11,587 --> 00:13:12,247
the question.

334
00:13:12,327 --> 00:13:12,607
Yeah?

335
00:13:12,622 --> 00:13:17,872
And absolutely, because I think the biggest misinterpretation is how much

336
00:13:17,912 --> 00:13:20,352
the state takes, what it actually costs.

337
00:13:20,732 --> 00:13:23,202
And people would be shit rich if it wasn't there.

338
00:13:23,482 --> 00:13:27,032
Like if we didn't have inflation, and if we didn't have taxes, everyone

339
00:13:27,032 --> 00:13:29,492
would be super duper rich pretty soon.

340
00:13:29,802 --> 00:13:33,182
Like, like, look, look what happened to Germany just after World War

341
00:13:33,182 --> 00:13:38,212
Two when they had this libertarian, uh, finance minister or whatever.

342
00:13:38,792 --> 00:13:43,662
The title was, um, Unsung Hero, that, like, made that country make the,

343
00:13:43,662 --> 00:13:45,872
like, the fastest comeback in history.

344
00:13:46,662 --> 00:13:49,192
Or, or, uh, Estonia is a good example, too.

345
00:13:49,192 --> 00:13:52,142
They, like, took Milton Friedman's playbook, and he's

346
00:13:52,162 --> 00:13:54,022
not even a true libertarian.

347
00:13:54,302 --> 00:13:58,472
Mises called him a socialist, but, like, uh, but still, like, if you

348
00:13:58,472 --> 00:14:01,972
do sound economics, the country, like, turns on a dime, and I believe

349
00:14:01,972 --> 00:14:04,102
that will happen to Argentina, too.

350
00:14:04,457 --> 00:14:07,357
And having, you know, worked in government, there is a

351
00:14:07,357 --> 00:14:09,257
lot of inefficiency, right?

352
00:14:09,457 --> 00:14:10,457
It's all inefficiency.

353
00:14:13,712 --> 00:14:14,662
some level, I think,

354
00:14:14,797 --> 00:14:17,887
You might be understanding what you're getting into here.

355
00:14:18,082 --> 00:14:20,802
yeah, there's a nuance, maybe there's like a nuance or something, or maybe I

356
00:14:20,802 --> 00:14:22,902
don't fully, okay, okay, okay.

357
00:14:23,252 --> 00:14:28,232
But what I will, what I will say is that if you, so, so yes,

358
00:14:28,322 --> 00:14:30,342
I've seen an efficiency, right?

359
00:14:30,352 --> 00:14:32,462
And also government is really bad at picking winners and losers,

360
00:14:32,462 --> 00:14:34,192
and they should not, right?

361
00:14:34,477 --> 00:14:35,687
No, who are they to

362
00:14:35,862 --> 00:14:38,872
and, and also if they're like, oh, well, these people deserve money.

363
00:14:38,872 --> 00:14:41,997
It's like, Yeah, but it's your cronies, right?

364
00:14:42,017 --> 00:14:45,417
Like we're like, I've seen because the further up you move in government, the

365
00:14:45,417 --> 00:14:50,197
more that you see, it's really about a buying votes and literally at the table.

366
00:14:50,207 --> 00:14:53,027
One of the reasons like I left, it was because they were like,

367
00:14:53,357 --> 00:14:54,597
which policy do we choose?

368
00:14:54,597 --> 00:14:55,827
That's going to get us reelected.

369
00:14:55,847 --> 00:14:56,897
Oh, bike lanes.

370
00:14:56,937 --> 00:14:57,907
People love bikes.

371
00:14:57,907 --> 00:15:00,047
Like it's just, it's such an inefficient spending.

372
00:15:00,047 --> 00:15:01,837
So that's what disgusts me.

373
00:15:01,927 --> 00:15:03,187
And I'm now, I wasn't a good fit

374
00:15:03,267 --> 00:15:04,907
No, but that's, uh, that's the thing.

375
00:15:04,917 --> 00:15:08,907
Like if it's, uh, if it's based on theft.

376
00:15:09,222 --> 00:15:12,902
Like in the base layer, it cannot not be corrupt.

377
00:15:13,592 --> 00:15:17,972
Like you, you cannot not have a corrupt system that is based on,

378
00:15:17,992 --> 00:15:19,962
on violence and threats thereof.

379
00:15:20,312 --> 00:15:24,512
Like, and that's because where do you draw the line and who's to say

380
00:15:24,512 --> 00:15:26,152
what's good for another person or not?

381
00:15:26,182 --> 00:15:31,092
Like from a, a strict autistic non aggression principle

382
00:15:31,122 --> 00:15:33,112
perspective, it's all corrupt.

383
00:15:33,242 --> 00:15:37,592
Like you're not entitled to tell me what I do with my stuff.

384
00:15:37,622 --> 00:15:39,082
Like it's, it's that simple.

385
00:15:39,132 --> 00:15:41,842
Yeah, so I helped put in cap and trade in Canada,

386
00:15:42,112 --> 00:15:43,342
or sorry, In Ontario.

387
00:15:43,342 --> 00:15:44,002
cap and trade,

388
00:15:44,532 --> 00:15:45,962
carbon pricing, carbon pricing,

389
00:15:46,032 --> 00:15:46,592
Oh, okay.

390
00:15:46,652 --> 00:15:48,492
Cap'n, it sounded like,

391
00:15:48,512 --> 00:15:48,872
tax.

392
00:15:48,872 --> 00:15:50,022
It's much more of a market based

393
00:15:50,022 --> 00:15:52,282
mechanism, which is more efficient than just a

394
00:15:52,452 --> 00:15:56,342
Crunch, because whenever South Park makes fun of Canada, there's Cap'n Crunch

395
00:15:56,342 --> 00:15:58,002
involved, and like, the cereal, you know.

396
00:15:58,502 --> 00:16:01,322
And so that's like the, the stick, right, where they take the money.

397
00:16:01,582 --> 00:16:04,232
But then I was, so initially I did that, but then I was like the

398
00:16:04,232 --> 00:16:05,832
carrot, like, where do we reinvest?

399
00:16:05,852 --> 00:16:09,062
Like, that makes the most sense in terms of like biggest DHT reductions, except

400
00:16:09,062 --> 00:16:12,102
of course the politicians are like, but get us elected versus the highest GDP.

401
00:16:12,752 --> 00:16:18,242
So anyways, so the point is like, you know, countries are like we need to,

402
00:16:18,442 --> 00:16:22,692
you know, lower emissions X amount so that we can meet targets, but

403
00:16:22,692 --> 00:16:24,232
those targets keep getting shifted.

404
00:16:24,662 --> 00:16:27,022
And it's very frustrating because, you know, I spent a decade there

405
00:16:27,022 --> 00:16:29,472
and before that, like there was the Kyoto Protocol and then the Montreal

406
00:16:29,472 --> 00:16:30,842
Program and it just keeps going.

407
00:16:31,092 --> 00:16:34,532
So now we're going between like, we're going to, you know, net zero for a 20.

408
00:16:34,947 --> 00:16:41,077
2030, then it's 2040, 2050, now we're at like 2060, um, because the targets shift

409
00:16:41,087 --> 00:16:44,687
because the politicians are too afraid to put in the kind of stringent reductions

410
00:16:44,687 --> 00:16:49,417
that are needed because they're going to get voted out, so, so it's just kind

411
00:16:49,417 --> 00:16:51,387
of like, being in that system hold on!

412
00:16:51,787 --> 00:16:52,477
I am still talking.

413
00:16:52,852 --> 00:16:53,882
yeah, absolutely.

414
00:16:53,882 --> 00:16:55,399
I wasn't about

415
00:16:55,428 --> 00:16:57,458
Oh, you look like you're jumping in, I'm like, no!

416
00:16:57,483 --> 00:16:59,063
was, that was me holding back.

417
00:17:00,173 --> 00:17:02,463
So,

418
00:17:02,768 --> 00:17:07,358
made, and it's not going to come from the strict policies, right, and the

419
00:17:07,358 --> 00:17:10,378
capital, there's trillions of dollars that need to be reinvested, for example,

420
00:17:10,378 --> 00:17:14,458
to decarbonize, to, to switch towards renewable fuels, maybe build out

421
00:17:14,478 --> 00:17:18,568
nuclear, like, less carbon emitting, so there's trillions of dollars.

422
00:17:19,508 --> 00:17:22,428
Private sector hasn't delivered, the public sector hasn't delivered,

423
00:17:22,818 --> 00:17:24,378
and their targets get moved.

424
00:17:24,738 --> 00:17:29,738
Well, I, like, the really crazy cool intersection and why I love what I'm doing

425
00:17:29,738 --> 00:17:32,458
now is I'm, I'm at Bitcoin mining, right?

426
00:17:32,878 --> 00:17:34,698
It's not killing the planet.

427
00:17:34,728 --> 00:17:36,948
It's actually filling that gap.

428
00:17:36,948 --> 00:17:40,353
So instead of two pockets, right, ratepayers, which are the payer, the

429
00:17:40,353 --> 00:17:43,953
users of the electricity system that pay into the system, or the taxpayers.

430
00:17:43,953 --> 00:17:46,593
Usually that's how infrastructure gets built because for bigger projects like

431
00:17:46,593 --> 00:17:51,303
nuclear where it's billions of dollars of investment in a giant nuclear plant.

432
00:17:51,813 --> 00:17:53,283
So you have ratepayer and taxpayer dollars.

433
00:17:53,283 --> 00:17:56,723
In that case, we have a third pocket, which is Bitcoin mining, right?

434
00:17:56,753 --> 00:18:01,038
And that is just a Beautiful, elegant system of market economics that are

435
00:18:01,038 --> 00:18:05,358
actually causing us to reinvest in new infrastructure because it's,

436
00:18:05,428 --> 00:18:07,148
for example, in Africa, right?

437
00:18:07,758 --> 00:18:08,148
It's a lot.

438
00:18:08,638 --> 00:18:13,868
Uh, there's, there's, um, stranded power that's inexpensive and we're helping

439
00:18:13,888 --> 00:18:15,708
build out the renewable infrastructure.

440
00:18:15,708 --> 00:18:21,028
We're co locating sites in Texas that are transmission disconnected and it's

441
00:18:21,028 --> 00:18:22,213
expensive to build up the infrastructure.

442
00:18:22,283 --> 00:18:23,663
Uh, the transmission.

443
00:18:23,663 --> 00:18:26,353
But they're all waiting for that day where they get connected.

444
00:18:26,543 --> 00:18:28,913
But in the meantime, they're not earning because they don't have a big

445
00:18:29,003 --> 00:18:33,233
load to connect to where you put a miner next to them and suddenly they're

446
00:18:33,233 --> 00:18:35,723
getting paid, you know, all every day.

447
00:18:35,933 --> 00:18:37,493
And it's a predictable revenue stream.

448
00:18:37,683 --> 00:18:41,063
So perhaps for the next project, they know there's a miner coming.

449
00:18:41,063 --> 00:18:44,523
They can maybe scale it up a little bit bigger as the population builds out.

450
00:18:44,523 --> 00:18:48,483
So we are Funding it effectively from this third bitcoin pocket, right?

451
00:18:48,883 --> 00:18:49,253
and.

452
00:18:49,263 --> 00:18:51,343
so we're building out low carbon infrastructure.

453
00:18:51,343 --> 00:18:56,393
And I think that is so beautiful that it's a market based mechanism and we're doing

454
00:18:56,748 --> 00:19:00,798
Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's doing the thing but doing it right which is in

455
00:19:00,798 --> 00:19:04,678
a profitable way because otherwise it's just it's just fake It's just a

456
00:19:04,678 --> 00:19:11,168
charade like and I I mean the goalposts are moved because they're impossible

457
00:19:11,353 --> 00:19:11,783
Yeah.

458
00:19:12,013 --> 00:19:13,113
Well, they're not.

459
00:19:13,393 --> 00:19:15,923
It's just everyone would like, oh my God, the carbon

460
00:19:15,923 --> 00:19:16,653
tax is so high.

461
00:19:16,773 --> 00:19:22,193
They, maybe they're not impossible, very locally somewhere, but like, have,

462
00:19:22,193 --> 00:19:27,773
have you seen Constantine Kissing's talk from uh, um, uh, the Oxford Union

463
00:19:28,683 --> 00:19:32,343
where he talks about this and, and like, I mean, there are billions of

464
00:19:32,343 --> 00:19:36,123
people in the world who don't have a refrigerator, that don't have a washing

465
00:19:36,128 --> 00:19:41,463
machine, don't have a dishwasher, like all tons, like all sorts of stuff that,

466
00:19:42,243 --> 00:19:45,623
that we have and they are not going to.

467
00:19:46,453 --> 00:19:50,693
Like de prioritize, they are going to prioritize getting those

468
00:19:50,723 --> 00:19:53,533
things above getting to net zero.

469
00:19:53,823 --> 00:19:54,163
Like you're

470
00:19:54,263 --> 00:19:55,093
yes, of course.

471
00:19:55,103 --> 00:19:56,353
It's not fair for them

472
00:19:56,513 --> 00:19:56,983
no, no,

473
00:19:57,203 --> 00:19:58,813
yeah, they deserve that.

474
00:19:58,853 --> 00:20:05,708
and I love the, the, the fact that Bitcoin is actually You know, functioning

475
00:20:05,708 --> 00:20:09,418
as a suspension mechanism and eating up the stranded energy and stuff.

476
00:20:09,638 --> 00:20:10,788
That's, that's beautiful.

477
00:20:10,978 --> 00:20:14,818
But the real kicker is like the, the real environmental

478
00:20:14,838 --> 00:20:17,258
thing is quality over quantity.

479
00:20:17,258 --> 00:20:18,868
It's, it's, it's sound money.

480
00:20:18,878 --> 00:20:23,748
It's, it's stopping The world from, from misallocating resources, which

481
00:20:23,748 --> 00:20:27,448
is what governments do, by, by, by fucking with the price mechanism.

482
00:20:27,448 --> 00:20:32,918
This is, like, communism didn't fall and didn't collapse because people

483
00:20:32,918 --> 00:20:34,528
didn't have an incentive to work.

484
00:20:34,538 --> 00:20:37,778
Everyone thinks it's about the incentives, but everyone had an incentive to work.

485
00:20:37,958 --> 00:20:39,088
They have a gun through their head.

486
00:20:39,338 --> 00:20:40,478
You're going to work, like,

487
00:20:40,963 --> 00:20:42,383
The wrong kind of incentive.

488
00:20:42,658 --> 00:20:45,408
That is an incentive, but it's the price mechanism.

489
00:20:45,408 --> 00:20:48,608
If you fuck with the price mechanism, no one knows what to produce and

490
00:20:48,608 --> 00:20:50,188
when and where and in which amount.

491
00:20:50,508 --> 00:20:55,198
So, so, so that is, that is what is wasting resources.

492
00:20:55,198 --> 00:20:59,438
If you print money, you incentivize everyone on earth to over consume.

493
00:20:59,788 --> 00:21:03,068
And that is what, that is what actually kills the planet.

494
00:21:03,368 --> 00:21:06,928
Like consumerism or bullshit consumerism.

495
00:21:06,928 --> 00:21:07,488
More and more.

496
00:21:08,023 --> 00:21:08,903
too, right?

497
00:21:09,183 --> 00:21:13,933
Like I think as us, as Bitcoiners, like I, and also, you know, as I,

498
00:21:13,933 --> 00:21:17,873
as I've gotten older, I appreciate buying a quality piece of furniture

499
00:21:17,873 --> 00:21:19,913
or clothing that will last me, right?

500
00:21:19,913 --> 00:21:24,003
Instead of this cheap fashion that just gets chucked, like, you know, doesn't

501
00:21:24,003 --> 00:21:25,543
like start to fall apart within the year.

502
00:21:25,808 --> 00:21:27,338
Generational furniture.

503
00:23:07,619 --> 00:23:12,019
so, so that's why, you know, circling back, the coolest projects

504
00:23:12,039 --> 00:23:14,709
that are happening in Africa are the ones that are electrifying.

505
00:23:14,719 --> 00:23:17,999
Like previously, there's people that had no power, you know, they couldn't

506
00:23:18,009 --> 00:23:22,004
charge their cell phones, they had to walk to, um, hours to get water, the,

507
00:23:22,124 --> 00:23:25,814
you know, oh, oh, it's dark, I can't study, I'm just gonna go to sleep, right?

508
00:23:26,054 --> 00:23:29,724
You're changing, and it's such a simple thing, but you're changing their lives,

509
00:23:29,724 --> 00:23:34,444
like, now the clinic can stay open, like, at night, and do an emergency surgery,

510
00:23:34,454 --> 00:23:38,344
not by candlelight, but by light, and I think, you know, it's so powerful how we

511
00:23:38,344 --> 00:23:44,844
are helping humans become better, like, like, increase their standard of living,

512
00:23:44,844 --> 00:23:49,889
so I think those are pretty cool, and then, um, and I also love how Mining is

513
00:23:49,889 --> 00:23:52,299
integrating almost every facet of society.

514
00:23:52,589 --> 00:23:54,639
I call it Darwin's finches, right?

515
00:23:54,959 --> 00:23:59,099
Every miner, I do like, cause Darwin's finches optimize

516
00:23:59,099 --> 00:24:00,569
for different niches, right?

517
00:24:00,569 --> 00:24:02,259
You have the ones that eat nuts and

518
00:24:02,259 --> 00:24:03,279
their beaks are very different.

519
00:24:03,289 --> 00:24:05,579
from the ones that eat insects that eat fruits.

520
00:24:05,579 --> 00:24:05,959
yeah.

521
00:24:06,279 --> 00:24:09,029
And so I find that miners are doing that because there's those

522
00:24:09,039 --> 00:24:12,939
miners that are going, you know, developing stranded parasites.

523
00:24:13,454 --> 00:24:18,374
Then there's those miners that are taking, um, methane from landfills, right?

524
00:24:18,374 --> 00:24:21,904
So they're, they're in effect getting free energy, the methane that a

525
00:24:21,904 --> 00:24:27,414
landfill, uh, produces, capturing it, and burning it, combusting it.

526
00:24:27,484 --> 00:24:31,564
And the byproduct is it's a positive externality from an environmental

527
00:24:31,564 --> 00:24:35,109
perspective, because methane is, you know, 84 times more potent of a greenhouse

528
00:24:35,109 --> 00:24:38,159
gas than CO2 when you burn it.

529
00:24:38,189 --> 00:24:40,719
So there's a positive environmental aspect.

530
00:24:40,959 --> 00:24:45,099
Um, I advise a company called PRTI and we take waste tires, which are

531
00:24:45,099 --> 00:24:46,979
normally landfilled in North America.

532
00:24:47,079 --> 00:24:51,249
Um, increasingly though, landfills are banning tires because they leach toxins

533
00:24:51,289 --> 00:24:56,519
into the ground and also, uh, volatile organics and, and other, uh, pollutants,

534
00:24:56,889 --> 00:24:57,039
uh,

535
00:24:57,144 --> 00:24:57,934
They're tiresome.

536
00:24:57,939 --> 00:24:58,719
go into the air.

537
00:24:58,989 --> 00:25:01,089
And so we get paid for the tires.

538
00:25:01,149 --> 00:25:01,609
Sorry, what was

539
00:25:01,764 --> 00:25:02,594
They're tiresome.

540
00:25:03,509 --> 00:25:03,779
Oh my God.

541
00:25:06,614 --> 00:25:08,504
This is what you get when, when you deal with Canote.

542
00:25:08,564 --> 00:25:08,834
Yeah.

543
00:25:10,099 --> 00:25:10,649
You're a dad, right?

544
00:25:10,689 --> 00:25:11,169
Dad jokes?

545
00:25:11,204 --> 00:25:11,844
I am a dad.

546
00:25:11,904 --> 00:25:12,194
Yeah.

547
00:25:12,549 --> 00:25:15,819
Um, so, so we take the tire, we get paid for it.

548
00:25:15,819 --> 00:25:19,519
We put it in a vertical refinery, sorry, vertical reactor.

549
00:25:19,519 --> 00:25:23,989
It's kind of, I think of it kind of like a refinery where we tap off gas,

550
00:25:23,999 --> 00:25:24,924
synthetic gas, which is, which is

551
00:25:27,084 --> 00:25:29,764
There's an oil that we put in a diesel generator for power.

552
00:25:30,054 --> 00:25:34,174
There's a black carbon type of product that has BTU content and 25

553
00:25:34,174 --> 00:25:37,224
percent of a tire is steel because that gives the rigidity to a tire,

554
00:25:37,854 --> 00:25:39,674
you know, when a car is, is riding.

555
00:25:39,964 --> 00:25:43,844
And so, you know, Those are four products that could be sold, or we

556
00:25:43,844 --> 00:25:45,884
can use the energy to mine Bitcoin.

557
00:25:45,884 --> 00:25:46,954
And there's optionality, right?

558
00:25:46,994 --> 00:25:49,044
Because during bear markets, maybe you don't want to do that.

559
00:25:49,284 --> 00:25:54,984
Or the oil, you can further refine it into a more valuable byproduct, for example,

560
00:25:54,984 --> 00:25:58,764
a cleaning agent, and sell that for 80 per gallon instead of, let's say, four.

561
00:25:59,264 --> 00:25:59,584
Right?

562
00:25:59,594 --> 00:26:00,774
And different markets, too.

563
00:26:00,784 --> 00:26:06,449
Like, if you're on an island, Hawaii, you know, uh, waste is expensive, right?

564
00:26:06,459 --> 00:26:08,989
Most of it gets, you have limited space.

565
00:26:08,989 --> 00:26:10,079
Maybe you have to incinerate.

566
00:26:10,409 --> 00:26:13,649
And then also energy is expensive because how do you get energy if you don't have

567
00:26:13,649 --> 00:26:17,139
a natural supply, but maybe you're in El Salvador and we don't have a volcano.

568
00:26:17,479 --> 00:26:21,049
And so in that case, maybe it makes sense just to use it for power.

569
00:26:21,299 --> 00:26:24,069
Whereas other places, you know, where, where electricity is a

570
00:26:24,069 --> 00:26:26,849
lot cheaper, maybe it makes sense for you to mine Bitcoin directly.

571
00:26:26,849 --> 00:26:28,329
So I think it's a cool project and it's.

572
00:26:28,764 --> 00:26:31,044
Um, everyone's really focusing on net zero.

573
00:26:31,044 --> 00:26:34,434
There's other projects that have other environmental or social benefits

574
00:26:34,434 --> 00:26:35,844
that I think too, we should pursue.

575
00:26:36,084 --> 00:26:37,264
So that's like another, right?

576
00:26:37,274 --> 00:26:39,484
Like, so here we are fitting in another niche.

577
00:26:39,714 --> 00:26:43,114
And then of course there's like the giant miners, the gigawatt miners, but then

578
00:26:43,114 --> 00:26:46,484
they're shoring up the electricity system, for example, in the U S where they're

579
00:26:46,484 --> 00:26:48,404
participating in demand response programs.

580
00:26:48,544 --> 00:26:50,574
I said, that's a different niche that they're filling.

581
00:26:50,714 --> 00:26:50,834
Yeah.

582
00:26:50,864 --> 00:26:54,524
'cause I, I wanted to get your, your take on the, the miners that, that are

583
00:26:54,524 --> 00:26:58,634
still going off of, uh, non-renewable energy sources, coal and et cetera.

584
00:26:59,004 --> 00:27:01,074
it's, we've really declined in the use.

585
00:27:01,074 --> 00:27:01,764
Cause here's the thing.

586
00:27:03,839 --> 00:27:07,609
Fossil fuels are expensive, um, like gas prices, right?

587
00:27:07,639 --> 00:27:08,459
They fluctuate.

588
00:27:08,469 --> 00:27:13,169
You need to have, um, and, and prices have been rising and it's a continue.

589
00:27:13,209 --> 00:27:17,019
So if you, if you are an operator, right, you're continuously buying

590
00:27:17,399 --> 00:27:20,109
a commodity that changes in price and yes, you can hedge it.

591
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,099
But if you have built out a renewable part of infrastructure, right, there's

592
00:27:25,099 --> 00:27:27,079
no marginal cost of power, right?

593
00:27:27,509 --> 00:27:31,929
So, um, and, and costs have fallen of renewables versus like coal.

594
00:27:32,099 --> 00:27:34,709
Coal will always like be still kind of cheaper.

595
00:27:34,709 --> 00:27:38,759
But I have seen like, recent, like in recent years, we're getting pretty close.

596
00:27:39,314 --> 00:27:44,504
And also, like, I think miners have, I think we're over 50 percent now in

597
00:27:44,504 --> 00:27:49,464
terms of, like, that are renewable or non carbon, so the places that are

598
00:27:49,464 --> 00:27:53,784
still using things like coal, like, there's some elements of China, maybe

599
00:27:53,804 --> 00:27:56,784
Kazakhstan, it's not, it's shifting away

600
00:27:56,784 --> 00:27:57,284
anyways.

601
00:27:57,444 --> 00:28:01,094
so that's the trend in Bitcoin, but like the overall trend is like coal is

602
00:28:01,434 --> 00:28:04,174
still the fastest growing energy source.

603
00:28:04,444 --> 00:28:07,854
And I mean, the crazy part is like, they shut down their nuclear plants.

604
00:28:08,154 --> 00:28:10,294
I'm from Ontario, where 50 percent of baseload

605
00:28:10,834 --> 00:28:11,894
originally was like, is,

606
00:28:12,324 --> 00:28:13,254
here's my foot.

607
00:28:13,924 --> 00:28:14,174
yeah.

608
00:28:14,214 --> 00:28:14,540
exactly.

609
00:28:14,794 --> 00:28:15,034
Exactly.

610
00:28:15,324 --> 00:28:16,924
Jesus, bad policy, right?

611
00:28:17,344 --> 00:28:19,364
Like, Like, they overdo it, right?

612
00:28:19,364 --> 00:28:21,584
They're just like, oh my god, this happened.

613
00:28:22,064 --> 00:28:24,069
And now suddenly, we don't have nuclear

614
00:28:24,194 --> 00:28:24,844
No, no.

615
00:28:25,194 --> 00:28:25,424
years.

616
00:28:25,584 --> 00:28:28,004
I was actually a child when Chernobyl happened in

617
00:28:28,004 --> 00:28:30,794
my communist Poland, it was very hard to get iodine.

618
00:28:30,794 --> 00:28:33,374
So my parents, we were like, they wanted, because I was a little.

619
00:28:33,429 --> 00:28:37,819
A very little child, and they needed to get iodine for me to make sure that I

620
00:28:37,819 --> 00:28:42,439
didn't get the radiation, so I luckily had a nurse friend that was able to provide

621
00:28:42,439 --> 00:28:43,819
it for me, but otherwise it was like.

622
00:28:44,189 --> 00:28:45,039
Yeah, yeah, it's horrible.

623
00:28:45,179 --> 00:28:45,889
So, so, so, so,

624
00:28:45,944 --> 00:28:46,274
story.

625
00:28:46,274 --> 00:28:46,574
Yeah.

626
00:28:46,839 --> 00:28:51,229
I, uh, like I've, I've changed back and forth on nuclear for so many times

627
00:28:51,249 --> 00:28:56,109
because, uh, to me, it's like absolutely crystal clear that from a physics,

628
00:28:56,189 --> 00:29:00,129
physics perspective, nuclear is like vastly superior to everything else.

629
00:29:00,369 --> 00:29:01,369
People, people don't know,

630
00:29:01,519 --> 00:29:03,289
matter, if you look at the energy content per,

631
00:29:04,444 --> 00:29:07,294
But like energy content, like a liter of

632
00:29:08,569 --> 00:29:08,959
Yeah.

633
00:29:09,559 --> 00:29:10,039
Yeah.

634
00:29:10,214 --> 00:29:12,254
5, 000 barrels of oil or something in it.

635
00:29:12,424 --> 00:29:15,044
It's absolutely insanely much better than everything.

636
00:29:15,564 --> 00:29:18,364
But then we assign politicians to handle this.

637
00:29:18,364 --> 00:29:22,534
And then like, oh, from a human human action perspective, this is bullshit.

638
00:29:22,554 --> 00:29:22,874
Because

639
00:29:22,999 --> 00:29:23,999
cared about carbon,

640
00:29:24,009 --> 00:29:29,319
No, no, and it leads to, if not Chernobyl, it leads to, like, environmentalists

641
00:29:29,319 --> 00:29:33,559
coming and screwing up the party and turning everything off, so, so, so that

642
00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:37,919
it's just a big cost because it didn't have its lifespan, because it needs to

643
00:29:37,919 --> 00:29:43,029
run for like 50 years because it's a big investment, like, so, so that's the, I say

644
00:29:43,029 --> 00:29:48,719
go micro, micronuclear, and like, a flux capacitor in the basement of every nerd's

645
00:29:48,719 --> 00:29:50,169
home, like, that's, that's the way to

646
00:29:50,364 --> 00:29:52,194
Flux capacitor plus a Bitcoin miner.

647
00:29:52,304 --> 00:29:57,124
Yeah, yeah, so you can, so you can, no, the flex capacitor is so you can go back

648
00:29:57,124 --> 00:29:58,994
in time and mine on older blocks, like,

649
00:29:59,099 --> 00:30:01,394
I, I use miner like a, like a, like a unit.

650
00:30:01,394 --> 00:30:06,074
Like, uh, this is coffee, uh, you know, it's a, a minor is a, it can be used

651
00:30:06,079 --> 00:30:08,564
for a singular or, or a plural That's.

652
00:30:08,589 --> 00:30:09,359
uh, yes,

653
00:30:09,474 --> 00:30:12,444
You should have miners in your basement, not minors.

654
00:30:12,604 --> 00:30:17,654
Like, that's, that's It can be misinterpreted, like, I

655
00:30:18,064 --> 00:30:18,914
need to explain that one.

656
00:30:18,914 --> 00:30:20,564
Alright,

657
00:30:23,539 --> 00:30:24,269
shoot, where was I going?

658
00:30:24,269 --> 00:30:24,819
Oh, okay.

659
00:30:24,829 --> 00:30:29,099
So, but, but no, you raised an important point because so like coal, right?

660
00:30:29,329 --> 00:30:33,809
It's not just GHGs, it's also toxic air emissions that get released, right?

661
00:30:33,829 --> 00:30:36,069
And so, uh, smog days.

662
00:30:36,424 --> 00:30:41,374
happen and people die from smog, like the elderly that are more vulnerable.

663
00:30:41,614 --> 00:30:45,134
So there's like multiple, uh, side effects, uh, right?

664
00:30:45,344 --> 00:30:46,334
From, from coal.

665
00:30:46,334 --> 00:30:49,124
We had acid rain, although actually the acid rain program was a cap and

666
00:30:49,124 --> 00:30:50,484
trade program and that one worked.

667
00:30:51,104 --> 00:30:52,974
Like, yes, I know.

668
00:30:53,419 --> 00:30:57,249
They put it in, they capped it, and um, there used to be a lot of acid

669
00:30:57,249 --> 00:31:00,039
rain in, especially kind of around like Michigan area, because there was

670
00:31:00,039 --> 00:31:03,609
a lot of coal, uh, plants, and also like industry used a lot of coal.

671
00:31:03,819 --> 00:31:09,279
So it actually worked, because they set the targets right, and it was lowered, so.

672
00:31:09,349 --> 00:31:11,809
you give a quick explanation of how the cap and trade thing works?

673
00:31:11,809 --> 00:31:13,379
Because first of all, Knut definitely doesn't

674
00:31:13,484 --> 00:31:17,164
I don't live in the US, like, or

675
00:31:17,409 --> 00:31:20,059
implemented cap and trade, except that their targets were not.

676
00:31:21,524 --> 00:31:22,199
She's like, we're going

677
00:31:22,199 --> 00:31:23,129
to go out of business.

678
00:31:23,264 --> 00:31:24,974
here, too, but like, I'm not into Captain Crunch.

679
00:31:24,975 --> 00:31:27,822
It was

680
00:31:28,029 --> 00:31:29,689
so, basically

681
00:31:29,819 --> 00:31:33,189
there is a cap on the amount of carbon that can be for, for like

682
00:31:33,249 --> 00:31:37,069
Canada or a country or whatever unit, um, or for the world.

683
00:31:37,349 --> 00:31:38,109
And so.

684
00:31:40,584 --> 00:31:44,374
The amount of carbon is capped and everybody, you know, you take a baseline.

685
00:31:44,654 --> 00:31:48,844
So I emit 10, maybe I'm emitting 5, you're emitting 100.

686
00:31:49,954 --> 00:31:51,094
No, I understand the concept.

687
00:31:51,094 --> 00:31:52,514
Like, what happened to that specific

688
00:31:52,574 --> 00:31:54,104
ratcheting it down, right?

689
00:31:54,114 --> 00:31:55,824
Like, because you're trying to lower.

690
00:31:56,104 --> 00:32:01,269
Um, and so, Either you lower yourself so you implement some sort of technology

691
00:32:01,269 --> 00:32:06,779
that reduces carbon, but maybe for you it costs 50, for you it's 1, 000 because it's

692
00:32:06,779 --> 00:32:10,919
really hard, like, the technology's not there yet, you're, you're very limited,

693
00:32:10,919 --> 00:32:14,799
and you can implement some very cheap System where you can very easily switch

694
00:32:14,799 --> 00:32:16,189
to maybe biofuels or something, right?

695
00:32:16,569 --> 00:32:19,909
So you can choose, I'm a business, do I, do I implement this technology,

696
00:32:19,929 --> 00:32:23,449
because there's a capital cost usually associated with it, or do I just buy

697
00:32:23,839 --> 00:32:28,869
this credit, like do you, because it's super expensive for you, so instead

698
00:32:28,869 --> 00:32:34,389
of buying this thousand dollars per ton, and for you it's fifty, He's, he

699
00:32:34,399 --> 00:32:38,419
sells you a credit and maybe he's only selling it to you for like a hundred.

700
00:32:38,479 --> 00:32:41,999
So you're like, huh, thousand dollars or a hundred dollars, I'm going

701
00:32:41,999 --> 00:32:43,689
to buy a credit from him, right?

702
00:32:43,959 --> 00:32:45,749
And so, but that's just two participants.

703
00:32:45,749 --> 00:32:49,499
And you keep adding participants and the carbon price like is set by a market.

704
00:32:49,769 --> 00:32:53,434
So you decide, you're like, well, it's costing, like the market says it's A

705
00:32:53,434 --> 00:32:55,544
thousand from me, no brainer, right?

706
00:32:55,904 --> 00:32:58,044
Uh, maybe for me it's like, well, it's 60.

707
00:32:58,044 --> 00:32:59,514
I could be buying, but you know what?

708
00:32:59,514 --> 00:33:03,604
I don't want to keep spending every year, you know, the 60

709
00:33:03,604 --> 00:33:05,134
or whatever as it ratchets up.

710
00:33:05,324 --> 00:33:07,624
I'm going to do the capital investment, right?

711
00:33:07,684 --> 00:33:09,994
Uh, and at some point it'll, it'll pay back.

712
00:33:10,014 --> 00:33:12,104
So that's kind of like the cap and trade system, how it works.

713
00:33:12,114 --> 00:33:16,394
So anyway, the work for For acid rain, but also we slowly

714
00:33:16,394 --> 00:33:17,664
started decarbonizing, right?

715
00:33:18,074 --> 00:33:21,054
And so, but, but where I was kind of going with that is like, no

716
00:33:21,054 --> 00:33:21,474
technology

717
00:33:21,544 --> 00:33:23,504
do you mean by it worked for Acid Rain?

718
00:33:23,804 --> 00:33:27,804
So companies were given like targets and they had to reduce and they

719
00:33:27,804 --> 00:33:29,634
would either like pay, you know,

720
00:33:29,699 --> 00:33:30,999
Reduce the things that were causing

721
00:33:31,164 --> 00:33:32,364
exactly the word cause.

722
00:33:32,374 --> 00:33:34,084
So maybe they would put in scrubbers.

723
00:33:34,554 --> 00:33:37,184
yeah, yeah, so Acid Rain Disappeared.

724
00:33:38,154 --> 00:33:40,164
Like it used to be quite bad.

725
00:33:40,724 --> 00:33:44,434
Uh, and it's, I don't know, maybe in some places it's like minor,

726
00:33:44,434 --> 00:33:46,384
but it's not to the same extent

727
00:33:47,084 --> 00:33:49,684
where, like, as it was in like the eighties and the nineties.

728
00:33:49,704 --> 00:33:52,074
So that's all environmental policy that worked in the market

729
00:33:52,074 --> 00:33:53,774
based mechanism that worked well.

730
00:33:55,564 --> 00:33:57,404
Well, from a certain perspective, yes.

731
00:33:57,594 --> 00:34:01,444
but for carbon, they like, for, there was a lot of like fraud too in the, in

732
00:34:01,444 --> 00:34:04,004
the, in the European carbon markets.

733
00:34:04,264 --> 00:34:07,664
Like there was fake credits being issued and also the targets

734
00:34:07,684 --> 00:34:10,624
just weren't high enough because again, politicians are too scared.

735
00:34:10,814 --> 00:34:11,644
So it did nothing.

736
00:34:12,929 --> 00:34:17,869
So, so I guess, I guess the thing is, is something like that, uh, if it works for,

737
00:34:17,979 --> 00:34:21,709
um, say acid rain or what, whatever it is, but it's, it's still a government coming

738
00:34:21,709 --> 00:34:23,399
in and say, you have to do this, right?

739
00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:27,669
So is, is there a scenario where the government doesn't come in and

740
00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:29,349
do this, but companies will still,

741
00:34:29,708 --> 00:34:33,588
only if they're like, Oh, I want to be distinguished myself and I think I will

742
00:34:33,588 --> 00:34:35,838
gain more customers by saying I'm green.

743
00:34:36,158 --> 00:34:40,198
Like there are, like there are companies, they're like, we are green.

744
00:34:40,208 --> 00:34:42,448
And then you get people that are more affluent that are willing

745
00:34:42,448 --> 00:34:44,108
to pay more money for that.

746
00:34:44,118 --> 00:34:44,678
Like, right.

747
00:34:44,688 --> 00:34:48,568
Because typically how that works, sorry, pollution is an externality, right?

748
00:34:48,608 --> 00:34:52,878
Nobody, like it's, it's a flaw in the market because it hasn't been priced in.

749
00:34:53,118 --> 00:34:56,628
So if I'm polluting, it's because there's no cost to me to pollute.

750
00:34:56,668 --> 00:34:58,378
But if you attribute, so the reason why.

751
00:34:58,673 --> 00:35:03,083
Usually there's some sort of environmental cost, whether it's fines or something,

752
00:35:03,083 --> 00:35:08,203
it's to mitigate the behavior, um, or adjust the behavior of someone

753
00:35:08,203 --> 00:35:09,313
like just polluting in a river.

754
00:35:09,313 --> 00:35:13,803
Why, why doesn't, it's so cheap for me, I'm in a chemical plant, for me to throw

755
00:35:13,803 --> 00:35:15,873
out these barrels, why don't I do that?

756
00:35:15,933 --> 00:35:20,943
People do, sometimes, because they're like, There's no, no harm, like

757
00:35:21,053 --> 00:35:23,533
in, in, especially in developing countries, there's no regulations,

758
00:35:23,533 --> 00:35:27,053
there's maybe no fines or nor, nor, uh, no enforcement, right?

759
00:35:27,063 --> 00:35:30,443
That's an externality, the pollution that's being dumped, but in,

760
00:35:30,463 --> 00:35:31,983
typically in Canada or in the U.

761
00:35:31,983 --> 00:35:33,893
S., there is quite a lot of,

762
00:35:33,933 --> 00:35:35,013
like, high fines.

763
00:35:35,013 --> 00:35:35,163
So,

764
00:35:35,183 --> 00:35:36,263
let me, let

765
00:35:36,348 --> 00:35:41,028
no, let me, because I got a very good point here, because like trying to do

766
00:35:41,058 --> 00:35:47,388
this, solve, solve these problems by, by introducing like a carbon, um, tax or,

767
00:35:47,388 --> 00:35:53,628
or like a carbon cap, it's sort of like putting a, uh, a bandaid on cancer because

768
00:35:53,658 --> 00:35:58,248
the thing that makes it profitable to, you know, throw away all barrels and, and

769
00:35:58,248 --> 00:35:59,988
do this all this destructive behavior.

770
00:36:00,103 --> 00:36:01,073
What is fiat money?

771
00:36:01,453 --> 00:36:05,643
Like if, if money is cheap, that's why we have over consumerism, like we

772
00:36:05,643 --> 00:36:09,893
talked about before and wasted resources and all this overproduction of stuff.

773
00:36:10,163 --> 00:36:15,533
So if we don't fix that problem, then everything else is just like trying to

774
00:36:15,543 --> 00:36:20,343
force people into behaviors that when, when the, the, the, the bad behavior is

775
00:36:20,353 --> 00:36:25,013
in the base layer, the bad behavior is, is what's financing the politicians to

776
00:36:25,013 --> 00:36:28,703
solve the problems that is actually caused by the politicians by printing the money.

777
00:36:29,033 --> 00:36:29,733
So it's like.

778
00:36:30,558 --> 00:36:33,898
Like, fix the money, fix the world, as the expression goes.

779
00:36:35,158 --> 00:36:41,798
I struggle to see how the, like, how sound money would stop people polluting though,

780
00:36:42,128 --> 00:36:42,618
I do.

781
00:36:43,568 --> 00:36:49,138
Because, if you know that you have money that will grow in value over

782
00:36:49,138 --> 00:36:51,428
time, you're less likely to overconsume.

783
00:36:52,608 --> 00:36:54,648
Okay, but that's just consumption, that doesn't, but,

784
00:36:54,658 --> 00:36:56,408
no, but this is the thing.

785
00:36:57,278 --> 00:37:01,628
My grandfather had a saying, that which you can do without your own.

786
00:37:02,918 --> 00:37:07,908
Which means, if you can resist the urge to own something, you own that

787
00:37:07,908 --> 00:37:12,178
thing, because you own the psychology, like you own your, your urge.

788
00:37:13,068 --> 00:37:18,398
So, and I think in the long run, having absolutely sound money

789
00:37:18,928 --> 00:37:21,378
leads more people to that insight.

790
00:37:21,518 --> 00:37:26,448
So I think a, more and more people will become like Jack Mallers or Jack

791
00:37:26,448 --> 00:37:30,968
Dorsey, who choose, who are billionaires, who choose to live very humble lives.

792
00:37:31,568 --> 00:37:34,408
but I mean, Jack still takes, you know, he probably still drives a car,

793
00:37:34,408 --> 00:37:38,518
he takes a private jet somewhere, um, and there's still, so you need

794
00:37:38,578 --> 00:37:42,298
to produce, like, these things like jets and cars and fuel.

795
00:37:42,538 --> 00:37:44,428
Like, he has a nice house.

796
00:37:44,578 --> 00:37:45,068
Like, there's

797
00:37:45,068 --> 00:37:47,608
still some level of consumption,

798
00:37:47,843 --> 00:37:48,773
examples out of my

799
00:37:49,128 --> 00:37:51,768
No, no, but I'm just saying, like, people will still consume, so you're

800
00:37:51,798 --> 00:37:54,708
not gonna live on the beach nude, right?

801
00:37:54,718 --> 00:37:59,078
Like, there's still gonna be some production somewhere, and the companies

802
00:37:59,078 --> 00:38:00,018
are still gonna be incentivized.

803
00:38:00,288 --> 00:38:03,188
Like, it's just so much cheaper for me to just chuck that over there.

804
00:38:03,648 --> 00:38:07,348
Well, well, I don't think, I don't think people understand to which

805
00:38:07,358 --> 00:38:10,238
extent fiat is causing these problems.

806
00:38:10,768 --> 00:38:11,088
Like,

807
00:38:11,128 --> 00:38:14,768
The Lemmy combination, devil's advocate, and address, I think,

808
00:38:15,038 --> 00:38:16,318
the specific point you brought up.

809
00:38:17,248 --> 00:38:18,728
It's in the wrong place.

810
00:38:19,478 --> 00:38:24,278
This is where I actually think we've got a philosophical thing here, okay?

811
00:38:24,428 --> 00:38:28,268
So, you're talking about the producers.

812
00:38:28,898 --> 00:38:31,908
Usually the pollution is not at the consumer

813
00:38:32,063 --> 00:38:32,483
not,

814
00:38:32,793 --> 00:38:33,753
It's further upstream than

815
00:38:33,788 --> 00:38:34,518
no, no, no, no, no.

816
00:38:34,518 --> 00:38:36,668
But producers wouldn't produce stuff.

817
00:38:37,083 --> 00:38:38,813
because there's less demand,

818
00:38:38,968 --> 00:38:43,538
reason that producers produce stuff at all is because consumers want the stuff.

819
00:38:43,643 --> 00:38:44,233
but wait, wait,

820
00:38:44,293 --> 00:38:45,703
have to have food production,

821
00:38:45,708 --> 00:38:48,188
Yes, but we're not always going to have.

822
00:38:48,763 --> 00:38:53,533
aisles in the supermarket where, which have like 20 times the amount of food

823
00:38:53,533 --> 00:38:57,073
that is actually necessary because you sell more food if you do like

824
00:38:57,073 --> 00:39:00,893
that will not be the case on a Bitcoin standard or at least to a lower extent.

825
00:39:01,013 --> 00:39:03,313
But those aren't necessarily the polluting industries.

826
00:39:03,323 --> 00:39:06,423
Seriously, that, like, this is, this is, they're just, just, yeah.

827
00:39:06,453 --> 00:39:08,113
So, so, is, is this part of the

828
00:39:08,168 --> 00:39:10,598
Yeah, it's not, so, okay, so like, to build a house, right?

829
00:39:10,598 --> 00:39:12,838
There's cement and steel that goes into that, right?

830
00:39:13,128 --> 00:39:17,168
You need metals for, for car, all our electronics that make our lives, you

831
00:39:17,168 --> 00:39:21,608
know, a little simpler, um, look at AI where it's growing, like there's mass

832
00:39:21,608 --> 00:39:23,678
production of chips and, and units.

833
00:39:24,188 --> 00:39:27,048
There, those, some of those industry, like, like if you look at rare earth

834
00:39:27,048 --> 00:39:31,098
metals or, or when you're pulling out, you know, gold, gold mining is

835
00:39:31,098 --> 00:39:32,868
quite environmentally destructive.

836
00:39:33,218 --> 00:39:34,528
That's still going to be.

837
00:39:35,383 --> 00:39:38,783
And I get it, maybe you're saying it'll be less, but there will always

838
00:39:38,823 --> 00:39:40,793
be bad actors wherever you are.

839
00:39:40,793 --> 00:39:43,123
And bad actors can include polluters.

840
00:39:43,863 --> 00:39:49,953
And where I'm trying to get at is externality of pollution somehow

841
00:39:49,953 --> 00:39:53,613
needs to be priced in and usually it's through regulation, right?

842
00:39:53,643 --> 00:39:56,683
So I don't think there will, like, there will always be bad actors.

843
00:39:56,683 --> 00:39:59,883
You need an incentive, some kind of incentive, and I don't know

844
00:39:59,883 --> 00:40:01,723
what that incentive model is.

845
00:40:01,948 --> 00:40:05,118
But government usually attaches a price to it because without

846
00:40:05,118 --> 00:40:06,658
that price, they'll do it.

847
00:40:07,073 --> 00:40:07,903
Well, okay.

848
00:40:08,093 --> 00:40:13,828
Let me, let me take this argument because like here's If you look at the smartphone,

849
00:40:14,398 --> 00:40:15,748
you have access to the internet.

850
00:40:15,748 --> 00:40:18,748
You have access to all the world's media, all the world's books, all

851
00:40:18,748 --> 00:40:21,018
the world's movies from your pocket.

852
00:40:21,788 --> 00:40:26,318
Imagine now for instance, that, uh, this was, that everyone had the

853
00:40:26,318 --> 00:40:29,808
same access to stuff 30 years ago.

854
00:40:30,108 --> 00:40:34,098
That would require every single person to own all the DVDs or all

855
00:40:34,098 --> 00:40:37,968
the VHS, and imagine the amount of resources that would go.

856
00:40:37,998 --> 00:40:41,508
So, so the efficiency of the smartphone is insanely

857
00:40:41,578 --> 00:40:42,338
Oh, we're getting better.

858
00:40:42,498 --> 00:40:42,918
so.

859
00:40:43,198 --> 00:40:47,148
But now you have like the 2 billion people that don't even have like power and stuff.

860
00:40:47,148 --> 00:40:47,978
Now suddenly they're all

861
00:40:47,978 --> 00:40:48,658
getting phones

862
00:40:48,888 --> 00:40:54,268
do you know, this was a number I read in Seyfinin's Principles of Economics.

863
00:40:54,508 --> 00:40:59,998
So do you know, if the earth was an Olympic sized swimming pool, do you know

864
00:40:59,998 --> 00:41:05,828
how much of that swimming pool is quarries and mines where they extract metals?

865
00:41:06,168 --> 00:41:06,438
Sorry.

866
00:41:06,438 --> 00:41:07,768
I'm not, I'm confused though.

867
00:41:07,798 --> 00:41:12,658
So, so if you have the entire earth and the, the part, it's

868
00:41:12,658 --> 00:41:14,318
represented by an Olympic sized

869
00:41:14,338 --> 00:41:16,418
are we talking about, like, the size of the mine relative

870
00:41:16,418 --> 00:41:17,738
to the size of the earth, or?

871
00:41:18,108 --> 00:41:23,258
the size of quarries and mines, total sum of quarries and mines on the entire globe.

872
00:41:23,508 --> 00:41:23,928
I don't.

873
00:41:23,938 --> 00:41:26,138
I'm sure it's small, but, but that's not where I'm getting.

874
00:41:26,138 --> 00:41:27,598
I'm getting at like the pollution.

875
00:41:27,628 --> 00:41:28,798
It's not by size.

876
00:41:28,798 --> 00:41:32,578
It's still like the amount of metals that get released into.

877
00:41:32,848 --> 00:41:33,558
Yeah, I get it.

878
00:41:33,578 --> 00:41:33,968
that's just one

879
00:41:34,018 --> 00:41:37,648
but, but it's like, it's three, three deciliters.

880
00:41:38,398 --> 00:41:45,538
So in that pool, so, so, so we're not running out of resources in any, in

881
00:41:45,538 --> 00:41:52,853
any, uh, like sensible sense of the word like they aren't rare or scarce like the

882
00:41:52,893 --> 00:41:56,813
ones who sell them want you to believe that they're extremely scarce and finite

883
00:41:56,853 --> 00:42:00,253
because that drives up the price it's like oh we're running out of oil and

884
00:42:00,368 --> 00:42:01,398
It's just harder to get.

885
00:42:01,398 --> 00:42:02,568
So there's a bigger cost,

886
00:42:02,568 --> 00:42:02,778
right?

887
00:42:02,788 --> 00:42:04,308
Like you get, you go for the cheapest

888
00:42:04,583 --> 00:42:09,384
free market solves for that like the price goes up And, uh, and sure there

889
00:42:09,384 --> 00:42:14,014
are extraction methods which are more damaging to nature than others.

890
00:42:14,084 --> 00:42:14,914
Absolutely.

891
00:42:15,604 --> 00:42:23,494
But the way to fix that is not by fixing, uh, it's not like the, the, the biggest

892
00:42:23,684 --> 00:42:28,104
consumers of everything, every pollutant in the world are governments themselves.

893
00:42:28,134 --> 00:42:28,524
Yes.

894
00:42:28,564 --> 00:42:30,074
Look at the military industrial

895
00:42:30,499 --> 00:42:34,499
the military industrial complex, that's the consensus mechanism of fiat.

896
00:42:35,129 --> 00:42:37,029
It's the greatest polluter ever.

897
00:42:37,069 --> 00:42:39,949
Nothing destroys the earth as world wars.

898
00:42:40,309 --> 00:42:41,279
So that's them.

899
00:42:41,289 --> 00:42:43,009
They're, they're the consumers.

900
00:42:43,059 --> 00:42:45,089
They're the ones who are destroying the planet,

901
00:42:45,219 --> 00:42:46,759
absolutely nothing productive

902
00:42:46,819 --> 00:42:53,169
So if you, if you remove that, uh, then like Jack's, Jack whatever's private jet

903
00:42:53,219 --> 00:42:55,719
is not really causing that much damage.

904
00:42:56,104 --> 00:43:00,704
Even if, if, even if the manufacturer of the airplane is Boeing and it's

905
00:43:01,194 --> 00:43:03,244
crappy at running the factory.

906
00:43:04,499 --> 00:43:09,059
what I mean to say is like, there, you can't, I, maybe I'm cynical, but

907
00:43:09,059 --> 00:43:12,439
I'm not going to rely on the goodness out of every producer's heart.

908
00:43:12,469 --> 00:43:16,064
Like, they're not going to all just, oh, suddenly we're going to, Go to

909
00:43:16,064 --> 00:43:17,684
the highest environmental standard.

910
00:43:17,934 --> 00:43:23,074
Like if there's no regulation, they will, like, people want to optimize for doing

911
00:43:23,084 --> 00:43:26,804
things like getting the most profit, whether that's in Bitcoin or in dollars.

912
00:43:27,084 --> 00:43:32,854
So if there is no mechanism, like market signal, whether it's a cost, like whether

913
00:43:32,854 --> 00:43:36,834
it's enforcement, cause I'm going to jail if I pollute, or it's a cost because I

914
00:43:36,844 --> 00:43:38,614
have to like achieve a certain standard.

915
00:43:38,644 --> 00:43:42,434
If you eliminate all these, I do think most people will just.

916
00:43:42,714 --> 00:43:46,414
Chuck things because in the developing countries they do, right?

917
00:43:46,514 --> 00:43:50,954
Yeah, but in the developing countries, they have even worse money than in the US.

918
00:43:50,954 --> 00:43:52,894
Yeah,

919
00:43:53,034 --> 00:43:53,974
to compare, but like,

920
00:43:54,454 --> 00:43:54,834
we do.

921
00:43:54,864 --> 00:43:55,404
That is the

922
00:43:55,654 --> 00:43:59,454
to, but there is no utopia and I don't think we'll ever agree on this.

923
00:43:59,524 --> 00:44:03,234
It's like flat earthers versus round earthers, because I

924
00:44:03,234 --> 00:44:05,094
really don't think everyone will

925
00:44:05,119 --> 00:44:05,499
Who's the

926
00:44:05,514 --> 00:44:09,084
of the goodness, I think that's, you know, debatable, but I, I

927
00:44:09,084 --> 00:44:13,389
don't think like, I really don't agree that people will not pollute.

928
00:44:13,499 --> 00:44:13,779
It's

929
00:44:14,149 --> 00:44:14,569
No, no.

930
00:44:15,179 --> 00:44:15,619
Okay.

931
00:44:15,769 --> 00:44:16,199
So, so

932
00:44:16,369 --> 00:44:17,289
how do you manage it?

933
00:44:17,759 --> 00:44:18,779
another angle then.

934
00:44:18,869 --> 00:44:19,279
Okay.

935
00:44:19,549 --> 00:44:21,369
You say it needs to be managed

936
00:44:21,839 --> 00:44:21,959
Mm

937
00:44:22,399 --> 00:44:23,859
because carbon is bad.

938
00:44:23,909 --> 00:44:24,889
I'm not saying just carbon,

939
00:44:24,889 --> 00:44:25,669
any pollution.

940
00:44:25,729 --> 00:44:26,659
Any pollution is bad.

941
00:44:27,109 --> 00:44:30,619
So who gets to decide what bad and good means?

942
00:44:30,849 --> 00:44:32,069
government, well, hold on.

943
00:44:32,089 --> 00:44:35,729
If it's killing other people because it's like toxic air emissions, then that's bad.

944
00:44:35,979 --> 00:44:38,289
If it's leaching into water

945
00:44:38,489 --> 00:44:41,429
and people are drinking it and animals are dying, like

946
00:44:41,459 --> 00:44:42,049
absolutely.

947
00:44:42,099 --> 00:44:43,849
That, that, I would agree that that's bad.

948
00:44:43,879 --> 00:44:48,249
And most people would, so we don't have a disagreement there, but, but

949
00:44:48,259 --> 00:44:48,789
I'm good, I'm good.

950
00:44:48,879 --> 00:44:52,019
Here, I'm, I'm jumping in to, to, uh, calibrate you.

951
00:44:52,364 --> 00:44:56,834
Uh, how would, how would you do it that, that, that, in, in, literally, our

952
00:44:56,864 --> 00:45:00,664
anarcho capitalist libertarian paradise, that, that, that someone else has the

953
00:45:00,664 --> 00:45:05,464
externality of, that, that, uh, yeah, okay, water, let's do water, easy one, how

954
00:45:05,464 --> 00:45:10,804
do you stop company X from dumping stuff in the water that's gonna hurt the people

955
00:45:10,879 --> 00:45:11,239
yeah,

956
00:45:11,629 --> 00:45:15,579
Well, you, well, you need, there's clearly a crime there because

957
00:45:15,669 --> 00:45:17,479
it's a property, property rights

958
00:45:17,539 --> 00:45:18,079
mm hmm,

959
00:45:18,289 --> 00:45:23,059
If I, if I pollute the water that, that you, uh, some other person

960
00:45:23,059 --> 00:45:26,309
is utilizing, that, that's, that's a property rights violation.

961
00:45:27,059 --> 00:45:27,979
Not a public good.

962
00:45:28,079 --> 00:45:31,669
but, but most, that's the thing, like, okay, but hold on, so

963
00:45:31,669 --> 00:45:33,069
you're saying you need some laws?

964
00:45:33,909 --> 00:45:34,509
Absolutely.

965
00:45:34,779 --> 00:45:35,209
Laws.

966
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:35,529
Yeah.

967
00:45:36,769 --> 00:45:37,219
No, no, no.

968
00:45:37,219 --> 00:45:41,559
But laws are, are not, uh, do not necessarily mean public laws.

969
00:45:41,599 --> 00:45:45,919
Like they, they, they don't have to be enforced by the entity that has the

970
00:45:45,979 --> 00:45:49,539
go shoot you because you killed my, because you killed my livestock?

971
00:45:49,734 --> 00:45:54,204
No, I can only shoot you if you, if you shot a friend of mine,

972
00:45:54,839 --> 00:45:55,059
No.

973
00:45:55,059 --> 00:45:55,289
Okay.

974
00:45:55,289 --> 00:45:57,689
But what I'm saying is, so you're polluting maybe his

975
00:45:57,689 --> 00:45:59,079
private part of the river.

976
00:45:59,079 --> 00:46:01,679
Like, so then like, how do you, like, you need something that

977
00:46:01,679 --> 00:46:04,454
says, you know, Like usually it's government that says do not pollute,

978
00:46:04,584 --> 00:46:09,844
there are countless pages of, uh, legal, uh, libertarian legal theory.

979
00:46:10,314 --> 00:46:14,834
And I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna like, uh, lay it all out here, but there are,

980
00:46:15,004 --> 00:46:16,724
there are solutions to these problems.

981
00:46:16,724 --> 00:46:20,734
And the first and foremost, I think that the conclusion that

982
00:46:20,744 --> 00:46:23,324
the only way to do this is by.

983
00:46:23,774 --> 00:46:30,184
Forced by forcing people to do this and that that is like, how are you so sure

984
00:46:30,214 --> 00:46:34,744
that the way we're doing it now is more efficient than it would have been if

985
00:46:34,954 --> 00:46:36,954
private property rights were the thing?

986
00:46:37,154 --> 00:46:41,664
don't know, but like, I mean, so if you look at, so Trump came in, right?

987
00:46:41,764 --> 00:46:44,404
And he relaxed a lot of regulation,

988
00:46:45,064 --> 00:46:45,704
No, but he was a

989
00:46:45,864 --> 00:46:46,474
regulists.

990
00:46:46,754 --> 00:46:47,474
No, no, he's a

991
00:46:47,644 --> 00:46:48,074
no, no, but

992
00:46:48,274 --> 00:46:49,174
Stop interrupting.

993
00:46:50,804 --> 00:46:54,154
what I'm saying is like, so there are parks that you couldn't, you know, do

994
00:46:54,174 --> 00:46:56,734
resource extraction in, for example, and

995
00:46:56,744 --> 00:46:58,954
maybe you disagree, but what I'm saying is as soon as you

996
00:46:58,954 --> 00:47:04,974
relax things, they come in and, and they start to pollute on that land.

997
00:47:04,974 --> 00:47:06,424
They start to extract the land.

998
00:47:07,134 --> 00:47:07,554
Okay.

999
00:47:08,324 --> 00:47:09,004
Argentina.

1000
00:47:09,644 --> 00:47:10,094
Right?

1001
00:47:10,914 --> 00:47:15,974
There used to be, like, 50 years ago, 70 percent of forests are now, like,

1002
00:47:15,974 --> 00:47:18,814
5%, and this is, like, public forest.

1003
00:47:19,054 --> 00:47:20,174
I don't think that's good.

1004
00:47:20,234 --> 00:47:25,944
We have lost, we are never gonna regrow the rainforest because it took,

1005
00:47:26,174 --> 00:47:28,914
like, thousands of years, hundreds of

1006
00:47:28,914 --> 00:47:29,144
years,

1007
00:47:29,164 --> 00:47:32,254
but everything you're describing is the result of crony

1008
00:47:32,254 --> 00:47:33,924
capitalism, not capitalism.

1009
00:47:34,624 --> 00:47:38,584
Because all of those things happen because, in the paradigm of

1010
00:47:38,594 --> 00:47:43,214
false money, money that could be counterfeited at will by the people

1011
00:47:43,214 --> 00:47:48,464
in power, all of these problems happen because of government intervention,

1012
00:47:48,504 --> 00:47:50,784
interventions, not despite them.

1013
00:47:51,279 --> 00:47:56,409
So, so, so, the government intervening on certain things that, oh, this wasn't

1014
00:47:56,409 --> 00:48:01,419
very good, that's just like, it's like letting the pedophile be the babysitter.

1015
00:48:01,709 --> 00:48:05,709
Like, it's like letting the arsonist be in charge of the fire brigade.

1016
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:07,169
That's what it is.

1017
00:48:07,314 --> 00:48:07,934
pyros,

1018
00:48:08,839 --> 00:48:08,999
yeah,

1019
00:48:09,064 --> 00:48:11,334
we're all secret pyros, us firefighters, I

1020
00:48:11,399 --> 00:48:12,389
there's fire here.

1021
00:48:12,634 --> 00:48:15,174
maybe, yeah, maybe let's pull this off this topic because Knut

1022
00:48:15,254 --> 00:48:17,304
is just, he's literally just, he's going to argue this to

1023
00:48:17,434 --> 00:48:17,934
I know,

1024
00:48:17,964 --> 00:48:18,264
Yeah.

1025
00:48:18,264 --> 00:48:18,834
I'm never going to

1026
00:48:18,914 --> 00:48:21,464
isn't going to make for a good podcast if he keeps doing that.

1027
00:48:21,464 --> 00:48:23,044
So, um, so,

1028
00:48:23,214 --> 00:48:27,944
So let's bring it to, sorry, Luke, but let's bring it to, okay, let's

1029
00:48:27,964 --> 00:48:32,914
pretend that I think that reducing carbon is the, like a priority

1030
00:48:32,914 --> 00:48:34,124
that every person should have.

1031
00:48:34,124 --> 00:48:37,024
And I can, to some, to some degree agree to that, that I

1032
00:48:37,044 --> 00:48:38,254
have that personal opinion.

1033
00:48:38,734 --> 00:48:40,564
So, so let's just play pretend there for a while.

1034
00:48:43,944 --> 00:48:44,154
Yeah.

1035
00:48:44,154 --> 00:48:44,684
You had something?

1036
00:48:44,854 --> 00:48:46,834
oh, okay, well, no, I thought you were going to continue.

1037
00:48:46,949 --> 00:48:51,729
No, no, no, it's gonna like, oh, if we're gonna level this, so yeah,

1038
00:48:51,729 --> 00:48:55,389
I'm not, I'm not playing for, I have a tendency to always take the

1039
00:48:55,389 --> 00:48:58,599
devil's advocate position and stuff also, so like, that's part of it.

1040
00:48:59,069 --> 00:48:59,699
Sorry, Max.

1041
00:48:59,889 --> 00:49:00,599
That's okay.

1042
00:50:00,820 --> 00:50:05,010
Well, okay, so Knut segwayed us into this, uh, you know, the arsonist and

1043
00:50:05,010 --> 00:50:07,410
the firefighter and we were talking about it on the ride over here.

1044
00:50:07,410 --> 00:50:08,830
You're actually a firefighter

1045
00:50:09,050 --> 00:50:09,300
I'm a

1046
00:50:09,460 --> 00:50:10,670
Oh, yeah, yeah,

1047
00:50:11,460 --> 00:50:12,220
this is fun.

1048
00:50:12,330 --> 00:50:12,680
Yeah.

1049
00:50:12,700 --> 00:50:17,040
I live in a small town and one of the ways to like, it's really hard to

1050
00:50:17,550 --> 00:50:22,820
To make a friends or build community as an adult, I think, like, I don't

1051
00:50:22,820 --> 00:50:25,930
have kids maybe some day, but how do you meet people as an adult?

1052
00:50:25,950 --> 00:50:28,320
Most people already like have busy lives, right?

1053
00:50:28,350 --> 00:50:30,020
They have their kids they're taking care of.

1054
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,230
So, and how do you build community?

1055
00:50:32,230 --> 00:50:36,500
And I think an, an easy way to do that is to join your local volunteer

1056
00:50:36,500 --> 00:50:39,550
fire department and also like learn some valuable life skills.

1057
00:50:39,550 --> 00:50:44,110
Like I'm, um, I'm licensed as a emergency management, sorry.

1058
00:50:46,250 --> 00:50:47,480
Yeah, like a first

1059
00:50:47,610 --> 00:50:48,320
First response,

1060
00:50:48,340 --> 00:50:49,530
It's below paramedics.

1061
00:50:49,540 --> 00:50:51,070
So, I mean, I think it's pretty valuable.

1062
00:50:51,070 --> 00:50:54,350
Like, I can, you know, like, you chop your arm off or something,

1063
00:50:54,350 --> 00:50:55,440
or you have a heart attack.

1064
00:50:55,470 --> 00:50:56,860
Like, I know how to respond to that.

1065
00:50:58,590 --> 00:50:59,800
That's, you know, your family, friends.

1066
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,140
It's a, I think it's a, it's a good skill to have, or you get shot.

1067
00:51:03,170 --> 00:51:05,900
Like, you know, emergency wound packing.

1068
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:07,780
So, that's one.

1069
00:51:07,780 --> 00:51:08,655
But also, like, first responders.

1070
00:51:08,975 --> 00:51:10,375
Fires are fucking cool.

1071
00:51:11,875 --> 00:51:15,395
You make it all sound so fun, like, oh, you got a gunshot wound!

1072
00:51:15,395 --> 00:51:17,306
Woohoo!

1073
00:51:18,075 --> 00:51:21,175
honestly, I get to play with big toys, like fire trucks.

1074
00:51:21,425 --> 00:51:24,105
I get to make cars into convertibles during training.

1075
00:51:24,105 --> 00:51:26,605
I get to break glass, like, so much fun breaking glass.

1076
00:51:27,415 --> 00:51:30,715
But like chopping cars, like, I don't know, I have this like destructive streak.

1077
00:51:31,195 --> 00:51:33,265
When you were a kid, didn't you like break sticks

1078
00:51:33,265 --> 00:51:34,045
or whatever?

1079
00:51:34,045 --> 00:51:36,520
Yeah, like, Yeah, so I get to do that.

1080
00:51:36,540 --> 00:51:37,630
Like a beautiful car.

1081
00:51:37,630 --> 00:51:38,340
Oh, sorry.

1082
00:51:38,370 --> 00:51:39,330
Chop, chop, chop, right?

1083
00:51:39,510 --> 00:51:40,180
It's fun.

1084
00:51:40,420 --> 00:51:44,230
I mean, obviously in the field, it's not always fun, but like, it's great

1085
00:51:44,230 --> 00:51:45,870
when like someone afterwards thanks you.

1086
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,100
Like I had a really, you know, this is the worst day of my life.

1087
00:51:49,130 --> 00:51:50,090
Thank you very much.

1088
00:51:50,090 --> 00:51:50,470
Right.

1089
00:51:50,790 --> 00:51:54,775
Um, so some pretty cool stories, but like, Like, yeah, like going in a

1090
00:51:54,785 --> 00:51:58,345
burning building, like, especially during live fire training or even when

1091
00:51:58,345 --> 00:52:01,935
there's a fire, like you're watching like the fire just consume this.

1092
00:52:01,955 --> 00:52:03,035
It's just so cool.

1093
00:52:03,305 --> 00:52:05,955
So yes, there's, there's, it's, it's cool.

1094
00:52:06,090 --> 00:52:09,740
Speaking of wasting resources and being bad for the environment

1095
00:52:09,775 --> 00:52:10,905
funny because I'm like live.

1096
00:52:11,115 --> 00:52:16,605
So I had live fire training last year in Oliver, British Columbia.

1097
00:52:17,135 --> 00:52:22,175
And my favorite training ever was this, it's called a liquid fuel fire.

1098
00:52:22,725 --> 00:52:26,345
So they were mixing in a giant pan, that's probably like the size of

1099
00:52:26,345 --> 00:52:28,505
this room, jet fuel and diesel.

1100
00:52:28,725 --> 00:52:32,205
And the firefighters that were just pouring these barrels and are just like,

1101
00:52:32,215 --> 00:52:34,075
you, I had a picture of their faces.

1102
00:52:34,075 --> 00:52:34,735
They're like giddy.

1103
00:52:34,735 --> 00:52:40,365
They're like, and then they would light the sun fire six times an hour, like

1104
00:52:40,365 --> 00:52:42,215
a couple of times, you know, a day.

1105
00:52:42,245 --> 00:52:42,585
And.

1106
00:52:42,925 --> 00:52:46,055
The, the, the black smoke would go up 10 stories.

1107
00:52:46,625 --> 00:52:48,865
It's just funny because like, someone who came from Cardin, I'm

1108
00:52:48,865 --> 00:52:50,405
like, that's what we're doing.

1109
00:52:50,405 --> 00:52:53,175
But it is to like, it's training, right?

1110
00:52:53,225 --> 00:52:57,925
Like, sure, you can practice like a pretend liquid fuel fire, but to

1111
00:52:57,925 --> 00:53:01,805
see what you train in action, how it actually works, like the techniques

1112
00:53:01,805 --> 00:53:03,155
you use are like something else.

1113
00:53:03,155 --> 00:53:06,105
And also it's pretty freaking cool to see like this wall of fire.

1114
00:53:07,002 --> 00:53:10,802
There's nothing like the smell of napalm in the morning, or what's the quote?

1115
00:53:11,252 --> 00:53:12,802
there you go, there you go.

1116
00:53:12,802 --> 00:53:14,402
So yeah, no, I love it.

1117
00:53:14,412 --> 00:53:17,422
It's a way I've built like some of the closest relationships are

1118
00:53:17,422 --> 00:53:20,832
either like the wives of other firefighters or firefighters and

1119
00:53:20,912 --> 00:53:22,312
we've had each other's backs, right?

1120
00:53:22,322 --> 00:53:25,512
Like we're there, like on call, like literally.

1121
00:53:26,692 --> 00:53:28,872
And it's like, Oh, hey, can you help me move or whatever?

1122
00:53:28,872 --> 00:53:29,842
Yeah, we're there for you.

1123
00:53:30,382 --> 00:53:32,942
So, so it's, uh, and it's become part of my identity.

1124
00:53:33,072 --> 00:53:33,382
Yeah.

1125
00:53:33,442 --> 00:53:38,272
And actually it's neat too, because I, um, started, uh, I'm

1126
00:53:38,272 --> 00:53:39,862
part of a proof of workforce.

1127
00:53:39,902 --> 00:53:42,182
Uh, so Dom Bayes started that.

1128
00:53:42,192 --> 00:53:44,132
He's a firefighter in Santa Monica.

1129
00:53:44,442 --> 00:53:47,872
And what, well, what our mission is, is to, well, basically like bring

1130
00:53:47,882 --> 00:53:53,772
Bitcoin to pension funds, unions, um, especially, so we've have now, I

1131
00:53:53,772 --> 00:53:58,192
believe, four, For firefighter unions, that self custody, their own bitcoin.

1132
00:53:58,192 --> 00:54:00,852
And I think that's really important because as a firefighter, you actually

1133
00:54:00,852 --> 00:54:06,262
exposed to a lot of toxins, um, like carcinogens, even actually the fire, uh,

1134
00:54:06,262 --> 00:54:09,742
fighter gear that we wear because it's fire retardant, it's touching your skin.

1135
00:54:09,752 --> 00:54:13,742
You're actually getting a dose of carcinogenic, whatever, chemicals

1136
00:54:13,742 --> 00:54:14,822
every time you wear the suit.

1137
00:54:15,182 --> 00:54:20,482
So there is a high incidence of cancer among firefighters, uh, above average than

1138
00:54:21,007 --> 00:54:27,017
You guys, uh, as well as, you know, PTSD and suicide is pretty high, heart attacks.

1139
00:54:27,337 --> 00:54:33,577
So if I am a firefighter and I volunteer, either volunteering or getting paid

1140
00:54:33,637 --> 00:54:36,277
to do this as a job, I'm a volunteer, but some people get paid, right?

1141
00:54:36,747 --> 00:54:38,917
And we're putting ourselves in danger.

1142
00:54:39,397 --> 00:54:42,117
I want to make sure, especially if I'm getting paid, like this is my main

1143
00:54:42,127 --> 00:54:48,572
job, that if I put my life on the line, that my savings, That are supposed to

1144
00:54:48,572 --> 00:54:52,602
take me through the rest of my life, provide for my kids, aren't eroded a

1145
00:54:52,602 --> 00:54:57,402
way that I can retire because the worst thing is, is risking your life, hoping

1146
00:54:57,402 --> 00:55:00,402
that, you know, you're going to have something there and it just melted away.

1147
00:55:00,682 --> 00:55:05,502
So I think like bringing Bitcoin, whether it's to the union, who sometimes the

1148
00:55:05,502 --> 00:55:10,182
unions provide like health benefits or and whatnot to firefighters or for retirement.

1149
00:55:10,362 --> 00:55:10,832
Right?

1150
00:55:10,902 --> 00:55:14,302
They, that's going to be there when they expect it because they

1151
00:55:14,642 --> 00:55:16,462
undertook higher than average risks.

1152
00:55:16,472 --> 00:55:20,022
So I think like that, for me, that it's meaningful and why I helped participate

1153
00:55:20,022 --> 00:55:23,112
and some of the cool stuff, like we're, yes, it's bringing it to firefighters and

1154
00:55:23,122 --> 00:55:24,672
unions, but also like, it was really neat.

1155
00:55:24,672 --> 00:55:26,752
This, this, um, is it in March?

1156
00:55:26,752 --> 00:55:29,182
I think we actually met with the Schwarzenegger Institute,

1157
00:55:29,592 --> 00:55:31,092
Arnold Schwarzenegger, right?

1158
00:55:31,372 --> 00:55:34,867
Cause we started, we're just Orange pilling is staff, maybe down the road.

1159
00:55:35,257 --> 00:55:38,357
Arnold, imagine Arnold ever got into like Bitcoin, that'd be pretty

1160
00:55:38,632 --> 00:55:39,692
Stay humble.

1161
00:55:40,077 --> 00:55:41,547
Yeah, yeah, stocks, sats.

1162
00:55:43,412 --> 00:55:44,312
Sell all your chairs.

1163
00:55:45,527 --> 00:55:48,817
but I think like it's, it's neat, like the folks that you get to meet

1164
00:55:48,827 --> 00:55:52,927
and, and, uh, you know, in life and try to, uh, you know, align

1165
00:55:52,927 --> 00:55:57,106
sort of missions because Arnold is very, like, leaning towards Bitcoin.

1166
00:55:57,467 --> 00:55:58,597
Environmental protection.

1167
00:55:58,607 --> 00:56:00,697
So I think like there's, there's an alignment, but there's

1168
00:56:00,697 --> 00:56:03,167
always that misunderstanding that we always try to fight.

1169
00:56:03,842 --> 00:56:04,552
Did you meet him?

1170
00:56:05,057 --> 00:56:08,627
No, we didn't, but we met his staff, but I did go to his office and I

1171
00:56:08,627 --> 00:56:10,857
got to like, see all his props.

1172
00:56:11,207 --> 00:56:12,777
Um, you know, like it's pretty cool.

1173
00:56:12,777 --> 00:56:15,577
We got to hold his like sword, like Conan the Barbarian sword,

1174
00:56:15,777 --> 00:56:17,626
his guns from Terminator and stuff.

1175
00:56:17,627 --> 00:56:20,167
So all of us actually proof of work for us held some of the things.

1176
00:56:20,167 --> 00:56:22,717
We took a picture right in his office, like in his chair.

1177
00:56:23,177 --> 00:56:23,627
It was awesome.

1178
00:56:23,647 --> 00:56:24,197
It was pretty cool.

1179
00:56:25,462 --> 00:56:25,742
Oh,

1180
00:56:26,122 --> 00:56:27,722
No, sounds like, sounds like a great story.

1181
00:56:27,722 --> 00:56:30,082
And then, so, and I think we didn't actually cover how you got

1182
00:56:30,102 --> 00:56:31,722
into Bitcoin mining originally.

1183
00:56:32,017 --> 00:56:35,067
well, I think because I spent a decade working on low carbon economic

1184
00:56:35,067 --> 00:56:39,377
transition and electricity markets in government, it's a natural fit, right?

1185
00:56:39,377 --> 00:56:41,387
Because everyone's like, Oh, Bitcoin's killing the environment.

1186
00:56:41,387 --> 00:56:43,497
I'm like, actually not, it's helping fund.

1187
00:56:43,957 --> 00:56:47,377
Renewable infrastructure, it's lowering pollution through a

1188
00:56:47,377 --> 00:56:50,007
market based elegant mechanism.

1189
00:56:50,017 --> 00:56:53,037
So I think that's like, it's still, it very much connects with

1190
00:56:53,302 --> 00:56:53,962
Absolutely.

1191
00:56:54,162 --> 00:56:54,792
Yeah, exactly.

1192
00:56:54,792 --> 00:56:57,132
I think the common thread here be because I, I mean, yeah,

1193
00:56:57,357 --> 00:56:57,557
You're

1194
00:56:57,672 --> 00:57:01,842
you've, you've walked into Yeah, a pretty, a pretty on the narco

1195
00:57:01,842 --> 00:57:03,462
capitalist libertarian side.

1196
00:57:03,467 --> 00:57:04,122
This is, this is what

1197
00:57:04,147 --> 00:57:04,957
yeah, yeah, yeah,

1198
00:57:04,967 --> 00:57:05,322
kind of thing.

1199
00:57:05,322 --> 00:57:09,072
But, but I think, I think it's great to, you know, no, not everyone has

1200
00:57:09,072 --> 00:57:11,292
to be at that level on, on Bitcoin,

1201
00:57:11,367 --> 00:57:11,957
I know, I know.

1202
00:57:11,987 --> 00:57:12,617
I understand.

1203
00:57:12,617 --> 00:57:12,807
Like,

1204
00:57:12,807 --> 00:57:13,537
who will build the roads.

1205
00:57:13,537 --> 00:57:15,437
I can understand roads being built without government.

1206
00:57:15,437 --> 00:57:16,851
I just don't understand how you.

1207
00:57:16,852 --> 00:57:18,502
Okay, we're not, I'm

1208
00:57:19,262 --> 00:57:19,552
okay.

1209
00:57:19,692 --> 00:57:20,582
not going to get into that.

1210
00:57:20,582 --> 00:57:22,912
I just don't believe that people out of the goodness of their heart

1211
00:57:22,912 --> 00:57:24,402
are just going to not pull that one.

1212
00:57:24,402 --> 00:57:25,192
I have a harder time.

1213
00:57:25,192 --> 00:57:26,332
Like roads are needed,

1214
00:57:26,677 --> 00:57:27,187
No, no.

1215
00:57:27,187 --> 00:57:28,687
But yeah, and

1216
00:57:28,712 --> 00:57:31,382
But the, but the comment, the common thread here is that Bitcoin is

1217
00:57:31,382 --> 00:57:33,512
actually doing the thing through the, the market, the thing.

1218
00:57:33,662 --> 00:57:34,472
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1219
00:57:34,472 --> 00:57:34,473
Yeah.

1220
00:57:34,517 --> 00:57:34,937
yeah.

1221
00:57:34,997 --> 00:57:35,657
Absolutely.

1222
00:57:35,662 --> 00:57:37,277
And, uh, I totally agree there.

1223
00:57:37,282 --> 00:57:40,457
Like I, nothing is better for the environment than Bitcoin.

1224
00:57:40,817 --> 00:57:43,367
Like I, I, I made a video.

1225
00:57:43,657 --> 00:57:44,567
cleantech.

1226
00:57:45,307 --> 00:57:47,457
No, that's the title of, working title of my book.

1227
00:57:47,547 --> 00:57:47,837
And,

1228
00:57:48,197 --> 00:57:48,617
it is.

1229
00:57:48,707 --> 00:57:49,097
Oh, yeah.

1230
00:57:49,247 --> 00:57:51,817
and getting back, actually, so you had a comment about the industrial

1231
00:57:51,817 --> 00:57:54,617
military complex being one of the most environmentally destructive.

1232
00:57:54,617 --> 00:57:54,657
So

1233
00:57:54,677 --> 00:57:57,657
actually, one of the reasons, so, there's Bitcoin is cleantech from the

1234
00:57:57,657 --> 00:58:00,997
perspective of it's like, it's helping, like, clean the environment, you know,

1235
00:58:01,037 --> 00:58:06,517
go, uh, Lower carbon, but actually circling like further out, Bitcoin is

1236
00:58:06,517 --> 00:58:07,947
clean tech because what is clean tech?

1237
00:58:07,947 --> 00:58:12,357
Clean tech is you using resources more efficiently, lowering pollution, right?

1238
00:58:12,487 --> 00:58:15,517
Or in like social, improving social life.

1239
00:58:15,527 --> 00:58:22,282
And so when we use Bitcoin as um, There's, you know, store of

1240
00:58:22,282 --> 00:58:24,572
value or a medium of exchange,

1241
00:58:24,572 --> 00:58:24,932
right?

1242
00:58:25,382 --> 00:58:26,982
So what are we replacing?

1243
00:58:27,042 --> 00:58:29,542
Well, we're replacing the central system.

1244
00:58:29,702 --> 00:58:33,592
We're replacing the, the industrial military complex, right?

1245
00:58:33,632 --> 00:58:38,952
The whole war machine, Which is very environmentally destructive, um, to, with

1246
00:58:38,952 --> 00:58:41,262
a new system, uh, that's decentralized.

1247
00:58:41,532 --> 00:58:44,842
But also from the store of value perspective, traditionally we

1248
00:58:44,842 --> 00:58:48,772
have used gold and that is quite environmentally also, whether it's.

1249
00:58:48,842 --> 00:58:51,167
Practly, Simetra.

1250
00:58:51,167 --> 00:58:59,432
I don't make excuses, we're replacing that pollution and plutz, we're

1251
00:58:59,432 --> 00:59:01,082
replacing banking and payments.

1252
00:59:01,382 --> 00:59:07,192
They need the mangas now right?

1253
00:59:07,452 --> 00:59:09,542
So you're replacing the payment system.

1254
00:59:09,542 --> 00:59:11,492
So there's like multiple parts.

1255
00:59:11,902 --> 00:59:14,732
That now don't need to exist, that aren't polluting.

1256
00:59:14,732 --> 00:59:17,452
So that's why Bitcoin is clean tech, because it is a clean, just like,

1257
00:59:17,452 --> 00:59:21,672
you know, you're like coal versus biomass is considered clean tech.

1258
00:59:21,682 --> 00:59:25,582
It's like, no, Bitcoin itself as a technology is clean tech because

1259
00:59:25,592 --> 00:59:28,962
you eliminate a very polluting type of money and store of value.

1260
00:59:29,267 --> 00:59:32,577
Absolutely, and the biggest, the biggest factor is replacing

1261
00:59:32,577 --> 00:59:36,257
the consensus mechanism of fiat money, which is world wars.

1262
00:59:36,897 --> 00:59:37,767
Proof of bumps.

1263
00:59:37,937 --> 00:59:38,637
It's what it

1264
00:59:38,742 --> 00:59:39,652
I know it's pretty morbid.

1265
00:59:39,767 --> 00:59:42,127
it's, it's, it's absolutely horrible.

1266
00:59:42,187 --> 00:59:44,547
Like, there's no bigger crime than wars.

1267
00:59:44,652 --> 00:59:45,072
Yeah.

1268
00:59:45,182 --> 00:59:50,182
So, so, and I absolutely love that and I hear sometimes like, Oh, Bitcoin

1269
00:59:50,192 --> 00:59:55,922
is bad for the environment because it consumes as much energy as country X.

1270
00:59:56,122 --> 00:59:58,282
It doesn't know if you include the military complex.

1271
00:59:58,482 --> 01:00:03,072
Well, well, I would say that's a reason to shut down country X and not Bitcoin

1272
01:00:03,982 --> 01:00:04,212
Yeah.

1273
01:00:04,212 --> 01:00:04,620
Because

1274
01:00:04,782 --> 01:00:08,042
because that's the bigger, that's the, that's worse for the environment.

1275
01:00:08,422 --> 01:00:10,392
And the comparisons to the banking system as well.

1276
01:00:10,392 --> 01:00:13,852
No one ever makes the comparison that Bitcoin, uh, is, is, uh,

1277
01:00:13,852 --> 01:00:17,582
uses X, but the banking system, the entire banking system uses Y,

1278
01:00:17,802 --> 01:00:18,332
Yeah.

1279
01:00:18,582 --> 01:00:21,812
um, some people have done, there's been a few studies, I don't know if

1280
01:00:21,812 --> 01:00:24,902
they've ever been published yet in a peer reviewed article because that's

1281
01:00:24,902 --> 01:00:29,952
what seemingly like the public, like the New York Times or whatever cares about.

1282
01:00:30,637 --> 01:00:34,327
But if we do like, those are the types of studies that we actually need, right?

1283
01:00:34,776 --> 01:00:39,196
Yeah, and so, and so the book that you're going to be writing here is

1284
01:00:39,406 --> 01:00:40,986
going to take us through all of this,

1285
01:00:41,056 --> 01:00:41,446
Yeah.

1286
01:00:41,456 --> 01:00:45,036
So there's like the replacing of that and the impacts, but then also just going

1287
01:00:45,036 --> 01:00:49,296
through all the different case studies, like the Darwin Finchon's niches of

1288
01:00:49,296 --> 01:00:53,506
like, here's all the really cool projects and how they're bettering the world.

1289
01:00:53,734 --> 01:00:55,112
Yeah,

1290
01:00:55,152 --> 01:00:56,722
you're covering mining related, or

1291
01:00:56,857 --> 01:00:58,187
It's no, I want to focus.

1292
01:00:58,187 --> 01:01:00,667
I don't want to be like, there'll probably be a very short

1293
01:01:00,667 --> 01:01:03,167
description of like what mining is because there probably should be.

1294
01:01:03,477 --> 01:01:04,337
But that's not the point.

1295
01:01:04,347 --> 01:01:07,567
The point is to like, it's similar to when people say like,

1296
01:01:07,567 --> 01:01:09,067
oh, Bitcoin is useless, right?

1297
01:01:09,367 --> 01:01:11,422
And then you can talk about all the different things.

1298
01:01:11,422 --> 01:01:15,302
But like, um, all the different benefits that maybe Alex Gladstein,

1299
01:01:15,312 --> 01:01:18,762
like, whether it's the human rights or enabling access, like, he wrote some

1300
01:01:18,762 --> 01:01:22,402
pretty compelling books based on, like, conversations he's had around the world,

1301
01:01:22,762 --> 01:01:26,892
uh, with people that are like, you know, everything is fail money is failing.

1302
01:01:27,402 --> 01:01:30,172
And so, so, so like, no, it's not useless.

1303
01:01:30,182 --> 01:01:31,322
Here's all the things, right?

1304
01:01:31,322 --> 01:01:34,717
And he wrote some pretty cool books that I like to like, oh, Actually, there's this

1305
01:01:34,717 --> 01:01:36,157
book that I would like to direct you to.

1306
01:01:36,397 --> 01:01:38,557
I want the equivalent for mining, right?

1307
01:01:38,567 --> 01:01:42,767
Not the whole like what mining is and how it works.

1308
01:01:42,787 --> 01:01:45,867
It's like how it like Bitcoin is clean tech kind of thing.

1309
01:01:48,782 --> 01:01:51,972
what's it called, um, Check Your Financial Privilege?

1310
01:01:52,172 --> 01:01:53,362
I read that one, it's great.

1311
01:01:53,602 --> 01:01:57,252
It's based on like his articles, I guess, but it was great.

1312
01:01:57,562 --> 01:02:02,052
And he's written one after that, but about even more, the IMF and

1313
01:02:02,332 --> 01:02:02,842
yes.

1314
01:02:02,872 --> 01:02:03,082
Yeah.

1315
01:02:03,082 --> 01:02:03,722
That one is excellent.

1316
01:02:03,752 --> 01:02:05,422
So that's exactly like equivalent.

1317
01:02:05,432 --> 01:02:08,662
Like this is like, Oh, you know, Bitcoin is not useless.

1318
01:02:08,662 --> 01:02:11,982
Here's all the reasons why this is like, Bitcoin is not bad for the environment.

1319
01:02:11,992 --> 01:02:15,052
For those people that say it is, here's all the reasons why it's awesome.

1320
01:02:15,642 --> 01:02:19,962
We definitely need way more of this FUD debunking, basically, all the

1321
01:02:19,962 --> 01:02:21,482
arguments for why Bitcoin is bad,

1322
01:02:21,532 --> 01:02:24,622
But like, I find out like a blog, people maybe don't take it seriously,

1323
01:02:24,622 --> 01:02:26,462
but like a book, they might.

1324
01:02:27,875 --> 01:02:30,257
Yeah.

1325
01:02:30,672 --> 01:02:31,622
forward to this one, so,

1326
01:02:32,012 --> 01:02:33,252
What was the name of it again?

1327
01:02:33,447 --> 01:02:35,367
The working title is Bitcoin is clean tech.

1328
01:02:35,407 --> 01:02:36,339
Bitcoin is ClinTech.

1329
01:02:36,344 --> 01:02:36,907
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1330
01:02:37,377 --> 01:02:39,417
It's a little bit controversial for some people, but

1331
01:02:39,702 --> 01:02:42,632
Well, when it's in the final form, you'll have to come

1332
01:02:42,632 --> 01:02:43,792
back and tell us all about it,

1333
01:02:43,907 --> 01:02:43,997
Bit.

1334
01:02:43,997 --> 01:02:44,443
Absolutely.

1335
01:02:44,777 --> 01:02:45,057
go.

1336
01:02:45,208 --> 01:02:47,408
is there anything else you wanted to bring up?

1337
01:02:47,408 --> 01:02:49,698
Anything else you're excited about or on your mind?

1338
01:02:49,998 --> 01:02:55,438
I mean, I think generally it's just the reason why some of us work in

1339
01:02:55,438 --> 01:02:58,858
Bitcoin is because we do see it like leading to a better world.

1340
01:02:58,858 --> 01:03:02,168
It sounds kind of cliche, but like, that's like, I get passionate

1341
01:03:02,168 --> 01:03:03,338
about it and my eyes light up.

1342
01:03:03,338 --> 01:03:04,608
Like I was working on custody for a

1343
01:03:04,608 --> 01:03:08,918
while too, but I just didn't, my eyes didn't light up in the same way as

1344
01:03:08,928 --> 01:03:12,298
when I talk about mining, because I actually, again, I worked in the

1345
01:03:12,298 --> 01:03:14,028
government and it wasn't working.

1346
01:03:14,038 --> 01:03:15,208
And then I actually see.

1347
01:03:15,763 --> 01:03:18,223
What miners are enabling, the types of things that we were

1348
01:03:18,223 --> 01:03:19,873
trying to enable in government.

1349
01:03:19,873 --> 01:03:21,823
And I'm like, yes, this is what I want to do.

1350
01:03:21,823 --> 01:03:25,943
And then like, you know, Atlanta did her, her, her movie, she released her movie.

1351
01:03:25,943 --> 01:03:30,493
And I, and I mean, I was in it, but I also watched, um, both that she did

1352
01:03:30,493 --> 01:03:32,393
stranded and then, uh, dirty coin.

1353
01:03:32,393 --> 01:03:32,643
Right.

1354
01:03:32,673 --> 01:03:37,593
And, and seeing, so I love when people video, uh, like have video

1355
01:03:37,593 --> 01:03:42,413
evidence of the good and like, here, here are kids that now have access

1356
01:03:42,413 --> 01:03:44,173
to electricity, like those stories.

1357
01:03:44,778 --> 01:03:47,258
Being told is incredible, right?

1358
01:03:47,278 --> 01:03:50,668
Or saving gorillas, like, I'm sorry, you don't want to save gorillas?

1359
01:03:51,728 --> 01:03:55,258
Because, like, the coolest story out of Africa, I think, is Virnga

1360
01:03:55,258 --> 01:03:59,938
National Park, which, um, would have probably, so, so they have gorillas

1361
01:03:59,958 --> 01:04:02,868
there, and they have rangers that protect them because there's poachers,

1362
01:04:03,438 --> 01:04:05,948
and it's not funded by government.

1363
01:04:07,088 --> 01:04:10,178
You're like, see, only 1 percent of their funding comes from government.

1364
01:04:10,188 --> 01:04:13,543
Most of it is tourism, but during COVID, like, Tourism died, right?

1365
01:04:13,733 --> 01:04:16,923
And now it's still, even though tourism could be back, it's a very unsafe

1366
01:04:16,923 --> 01:04:18,233
region because there's gangs there,

1367
01:04:18,553 --> 01:04:22,553
and they will literally shoot you and murder you like some of the mining workers

1368
01:04:22,553 --> 01:04:23,023
have been.

1369
01:04:23,023 --> 01:04:24,413
Mistake you for a gorilla.

1370
01:04:25,083 --> 01:04:28,673
No, no, they just like, we're going to try to steal whatever you have, right?

1371
01:04:29,063 --> 01:04:34,893
And so, The park director had the idea to use the local hydro to mine Bitcoin

1372
01:04:34,963 --> 01:04:40,933
and that is currently providing 150, 000 a month that is being used to pay park

1373
01:04:40,933 --> 01:04:43,163
rangers, right, to protect the gorillas.

1374
01:04:43,163 --> 01:04:45,103
I'm like, how beautiful is

1375
01:04:45,103 --> 01:04:45,433
that?

1376
01:04:45,463 --> 01:04:49,003
It's supporting like the build out of renewables plus gorillas and then

1377
01:04:49,003 --> 01:04:53,403
they're working on heat recovery for, um, they're making some chocolate, right?

1378
01:04:53,403 --> 01:04:56,608
They're drying cocoa beans, uh, in, in, in.

1379
01:04:56,958 --> 01:05:00,868
Like, on, on site from local farmers, I think it's just like, it's beautiful, like

1380
01:05:00,868 --> 01:05:06,648
heat recovery and, um, and yeah, that's, that's the stories that I think that we

1381
01:05:06,648 --> 01:05:09,478
need to tell to make normies understand.

1382
01:05:09,648 --> 01:05:11,288
Sorry, normies, that sounds weird, but you know what I mean?

1383
01:05:11,298 --> 01:05:15,128
Like, you don't tell them about, like, oh, yes, inflation sucks.

1384
01:05:15,128 --> 01:05:18,448
You're like, no, like, a powerful story is, like, us saving gorillas.

1385
01:05:18,763 --> 01:05:21,003
Yeah, norm, norm is not condescending.

1386
01:05:21,003 --> 01:05:21,983
It means normal person.

1387
01:05:22,353 --> 01:05:22,683
Yeah.

1388
01:05:23,098 --> 01:05:24,068
None of us are normal.

1389
01:05:24,233 --> 01:05:25,323
No, no,

1390
01:05:25,423 --> 01:05:26,223
have to be a freak

1391
01:05:26,253 --> 01:05:31,443
feel like you almost have to be like, I think in Bitcoin, because you need that

1392
01:05:31,443 --> 01:05:34,053
hyper focus to go down the rabbit hole.

1393
01:05:34,103 --> 01:05:34,813
laser eyes.

1394
01:05:35,113 --> 01:05:37,143
Laser eyes, yeah.

1395
01:05:37,153 --> 01:05:39,083
Max, fantastic to have you here.

1396
01:05:39,193 --> 01:05:41,383
Is there any way you want to direct our listeners?

1397
01:05:41,443 --> 01:05:42,313
Like some website?

1398
01:05:42,463 --> 01:05:45,473
I'm technically, not technically, I'm usually on Twitter,

1399
01:05:45,563 --> 01:05:46,833
crypto underscore mags.

1400
01:05:46,843 --> 01:05:49,923
I'm on Nostr too, but you can get there through Twitter, it's a lot easier.

1401
01:05:50,623 --> 01:05:51,873
Yeah, get on Nostr, people.

1402
01:05:52,343 --> 01:05:54,473
Like, subscribe and brush your teeth and get on Nostr.

1403
01:05:55,838 --> 01:05:56,408
Fantastic.

1404
01:05:56,873 --> 01:05:57,663
thank you

1405
01:05:57,708 --> 01:05:58,618
you so much for joining us.

1406
01:05:58,968 --> 01:06:00,388
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.

1407
01:06:00,638 --> 01:06:01,358
Thanks for listening.

1408
01:06:01,698 --> 01:06:02,108
Thank you.