mr.
Fractal Encrypt, welcome back my friend.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for being here, Fractal, you absolute legend, you.
Yeah.
I appreciate you
I'm gonna start by telling a story.
So three days ago, I got a message at 7.
20 in the morning.
Saying, Hey, you guys, you guys have a power drill.
I need to steal the TV from my hotel
Where'd you get that message
That message
? Yeah.
From some anonymous artist of some kind.
And, uh, uh, yeah, I, I reply like half hour later because I'm, I, I'm not
seeing the message until I wake up, like.
Closer to eight.
And I'm like, sorry dude, we don't have a power drill right now.
Usually don't bring power drills to the conferences.
And I get a reply back, no, no, dude, it's just cool.
I went off to the venue and brought my power drill and installed the TV.
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Sure, Sure.
yeah, yeah, I can, uh, get into that.
It's, it's part of my philosophy of not letting obstacles get
in the way of your mission.
So if you're on mission, you just can't let little things stop you.
So.
You know, certain things have to be done and things come into your way.
And I think obstacles are one of those things in life that they just
see if you're really serious about it, you know, they just come up to
see, you know, if you're not serious about it, the obstacle comes up, you
go away and you don't actually ever achieve what you were trying to get.
But if you're serious
about it, you try to move the obstacle out of the way.
If you're successful at it, then you actually reach your goal.
So in this case, I.
I had taken some videos of my artwork and I thought it was important to show the
videos next to the artwork because I had basically put a cover over the artwork
so people couldn't touch it and go play around with it because it's mirrors and
it easily gets fingerprints so I just wanted to protect it as best I could
But I also wanted people to see that it was functional and it actually worked.
And part of that working is motion.
And the only way to show that would have been to do it with a video.
So I had asked the conference organizers, you know, hey, can I get a TV?
And you know, it was a little late in the game, you know, I probably could
have asked earlier and It's been busy, so I'm not sure if I really did or not,
so I'm just gonna say I did never ask for one previously, so I asked for one
late in the game, and they were very kind, and they tried, and they said,
okay, we're gonna, we're gonna try, we'll get you one by tomorrow, and
the event wasn't really starting until tomorrow, so that was gonna be fine.
Um, late at night, I sent a message to the, you know, uh, organizers saying,
Hey, did you, were you able to get the TV?
I didn't hear back.
Uh, so then in the morning, we're, it's probably 6.
37, I was first thing, like, ready to get to work.
So, hey, you know, sending them a message.
What's going on?
Uh, do we have a TV by chance?
And he sent me a message back that, hey, I'm sorry, I forgot to ask
yesterday and now it's too late.
Period.
You know, he didn't say period, but there was a period there in the
sentence and it felt very fine on him.
Like, I need a TV.
You know, this, this is not an acceptable answer.
So, um, I need to just figure it out myself.
So I just sent him a message.
I said, okay, no worries.
I'm just going to do this myself.
Yeah, and, uh, yeah, the TV is back in place in the hotel
room now, everything went fine.
So, so you didn't really steal the TV, you borrowed it, of course.
Well, you just skipped right ahead, didn't you?
my
yeah.
So, anyways, he tells me I can't have a TV.
I'm like, my first thought is that, you know, I'm going to go find a local store.
I'll go purchase one and then I'll, I'll, you know, buy a TV and a stand.
To display it, but, uh, part of me was thinking, you know, if I get a
stand, I'm going to have these cables that are running around and that's
just not going to look nice in an art gallery on the, on the white walls.
And for it to look nice is actually more important for me than to have the video.
So it has to kind of have all these, these things in place first.
So it just didn't seem possible to go to a store and actually
manifest all this at the same time.
So I just happened to look on the wall, uh, in front of me.
And there was the answer staring me in the face.
you know, so I said, you know what, like,
what the heck, let me see how this works.
So I just looked underneath and saw how, know, if I could actually
pull the TV off and you couldn't, you know, there was actually like,
it was secured in with two screws.
Two screws are easy to remove if you have a screwdriver.
So realistically, I knew that I was not far away from having a TV at this point.
So you guys had all this equipment.
So I figured, hey, you know, if anybody's going to have like,
you know, a screwdriver or a drill, it's probably these guys.
And so I message you and, and, yeah, I didn't hear back for half an
hour, so probably like 10 minutes.
I was already at the venue getting the thing and already back here by the, by
the time you were messaging me and Yeah.
I had a drill.
I popped that, popped those two screws out, and as soon as I
had the two screws out, I saw another answer to another problem.
It had like the wall mount.
Super clean.
So I was able to just pull the wall mount off too.
And you know, then when I got to the gallery, I just, you know,
installed everything and went onto the wall just beautifully.
Exactly.
It fit like perfectly, like I almost had planned it.
And, um, yeah.
And then just at the end of the event, I, I took all the art off the wall.
I took the TV off the wall.
I brought it back here.
And, uh, well, I guess, yeah, the first thing is how did
I get it out of the hotel?
So, you know, I was a little concerned about that.
Like, Hey, are they going to notice me just like walking out with the TV?
Cause I didn't really have a bag that big to put it in.
So.
I just figured I'd chance it, and I just, you know, went down the elevator,
I brought the TV with me, and I was lucky that the lobby just happened to
be full at that moment of people, so nobody saw me, nobody paid attention,
I just scooted on out, and, uh, pretty much the same thing when I came back
too, it was like, busy lobby, so I used that same camouflage to, uh, Scooch back
up to my room, but I had a big problem when I got it back because these doors
lock if you, you know, if you don't have the key, as soon as you close it, they
lock and there's a weird function where you have to kind of put the key into the
door to make the lights work in the room.
So I opened the door, I put the key in the thing and I had actually
taken one of their bellhop carts up because it was a TV and I had a whole
bunch of other bullshit from that.
I had the sculptures with me and everything.
So I had taken one of their bellhop carts into the Hallway.
And I brought everything into the room except for the TV and I was like
about I went back out to go get it.
Some other guy just happened to walk in between me and the and the door and
the bellhop cart at the right moment.
And I lost it and the door closed on me.
And I had a bellhop cart with a very incriminating TV sitting on it
that was not on the wall in my room.
So I knew if I had to ask them to You like, help me get into the
room, they might want to come up.
I didn't have my ID on me, so I wasn't sure if they were gonna even believe me
that that was my room without going to it.
So, I knew I was like about to get busted at this point and
I was like, fuck, you know?
I don't know if I want to say that but that's what I was like.
And um, I was like, okay, you know what, maybe I could just, people sometimes
they just don't look around, they don't pay attention to a lot of details.
So, I actually just put it in a corner in a nondescript place and I figured, okay,
I'll go downstairs and see what happens and Yeah, they just gave me a new key.
I went back up and it was no thing.
But it was a stressful moment when the guy like, and he knew it, he felt so bad when
he saw what happened because he's like, you want me to stay here and guard the TV?
I was like, nah man, I'm gonna figure it out.
It's a great story, but the thing looked fantastic, especially
with the little video above it.
And the thing is, yeah, you say moving parts, and this is because this
particular piece is actually a computer.
Can you tell us about it, please?
I'd love to.
Yeah.
Uh, it was a project that I did, uh, using a cryptographic protocol called Codex 32.
And this is developed by some of the guys at Blockstream, Andrew Sra, and
a, and a NIM called Pearl Wart Snead.
And, uh, these two have developed a method that you can use to create Bitcoin keys
offline without using any computers.
Not trusting any software, hardware, um, or anything like that.
And I love low technology things.
And I actually don't trust anything at all in life, as you probably know very well.
So I, I like something like this where you can actually
do all the processes yourself.
Um, any math that you have to do, you do, do, do by hand on pen and paper.
And It's very simple to see whether you've done it correctly or not.
If you've done it correctly, then you've actually created some Bitcoin keys.
If you've not, then you know that it's very obvious that you've done it wrong.
I think I've got a little off track, so let me kind of back up a little first.
The Codex32 protocol allows you to create Bitcoin keys without trusting computers.
It also allows you to split the keys into separate parts.
So if you wanted to make a two of three setup where you need two keys,
uh, two of three keys to recombine your secret key, you can do that.
And then there's also a method, of course, to take those split
shares and recombine them.
So what I made was a set of three computers.
The first one does the key creation, the second one does the key splitting,
and the third one does the key recovery, so, um, To me, I think
it's a very interesting protocol.
If you create keys with a software wallet, for example, uh, It takes you two seconds.
You know, it's, it's no problem at all.
If you're super duper cypherpunk and you, you're going to roll
dice to create your seeds.
The fact is you can't actually roll dice to create the entire seed.
You can roll dice and create 11 words or 23 words.
You can't create the 12th word or the 24th word by dice rolls because it's something
called a checksum and it verifies that you actually have a valid seed.
So you can't just roll that one.
It has to actually be computationally correct in order
to, to be a valid Bitcoin seed.
So, even the super cypherpunks end up having to trust a computer at the end,
and there's just so many reasons not to trust computers, you know, there's
something that says even a, even a computer that's working correctly could be
working against the interests of the user.
So, it's always best to limit those type of variables if you can, I think, so.
Uh,
you want to be self sovereign, you go and buy an art piece for, like,
what is it, you auction it out?
yes.
I, yeah, I auctioned it out and, um, we had a whole art gallery
there and, and, um, I did an auction of it and I auctioned.
So it was like all three pieces as a set.
And it was, uh, very successful.
I think it went for 0.
76 Bitcoin, which is really amazing.
And, um, yeah, that person gets the whole set.
And to me, I think it's, you know, it's just a really cool technology to
be able to, you know, Say that you're able to go through the whole process
yourself, everything is done yourself, and if you didn't want to pay 0.
76 Bitcoin to, you know, for a very fancy version, you can actually go online, and
there's a website called secretcodex32.
com, and you can just go ahead and print and cut your own paper computers
that will do the same process.
And there's even a, uh, a bit 39, a paper computer that I saw recently
that the guy's been working on.
Unfortunately, it has that last step where you do need a computer too.
And so that's why I didn't work with that.
Bit 39 is much more popular, um, obviously, but the people that,
uh, made the, the codex 32 spec have some, Some very interesting
words in their book about BIP39.
So they've kind of do shots fired stuff and say that, you know, the checksum
of a BIP39 password is only one word long, and it's going to fail to detect.
Sometimes it will fail to detect even one error.
And it has the quality of making your, um, making your Bitcoin
seed a non standard length.
And, um, you know, they have a couple of other things that they say that
they just don't like about BIP39.
And it's very interesting to see, like, The, these, uh, things that I had kind
of never considered about Bit39 before.
So even, even though I use it myself, Bit39, I just, I just think it's
interesting to see people that look at things so deeply and it kind of
changes your perspective on it too.
So I always try to find something that's an interesting project
that I can learn and grow from.
And, and the Codex 32 is so difficult for me to understand at first.
I just loved it, you know, cause it was like, I could tell it was a very
interesting project and it was something you kind of had to wrap your mind around.
And.
Um, I had to actually go through the process of using it before I
could really get my mind around it.
So I think, um, and I will give you some credit here, as I've done before,
is that we happened to be sitting on a balcony and watching the sunrise in
Madeira, and you had just made a comment to me that, Uh, a lot of my work was
self similar in the fact that it's kind of circles that do, you know, Bitcoin
circles, um, and that I was just making a lot of circles and I was like, okay,
that, that kind of makes sense because if I actually look past all my previous
production is pretty much all circles.
And the interesting thing to me is they all look wildly different, you
know, like to me, it looks dramatically different because I'm super into the
details and even like a little change in probably one of my series would look.
Wildly different to me, but to other people say, like, that aren't looking
at it in that same way, it may look self similar, so I said, I had actually done
a Codex 32 prototype, where it actually, in order for me to do what I was saying
I was doing earlier, was to actually make the keys, I had to go through the process,
and I made one that was basically just a wooden version of it, just to see if
I, you know, the dials worked, and I can actually do it, and Uh, and make something
that was functional, for example.
And so that was step one.
And when I actually used it, it was just, you know, it was just so cool.
Cause I was like, wow, this is actually neat.
It's much cleaner than the paper computers looked, uh, to be honest.
And, um, it was just neat to see something that was functional and actually.
that you built and it's actually doing computations.
Um, one of the really, the, the first computer does these batch 32 additions
and it's something that I had never encountered before, but basically all
the letters of the current Bitcoin addresses that we use, there's 32
characters in them and it's called batch 32, that's the address format.
And there's a, an addition that you can do.
So you can take any of those 32 characters and add them against each other.
So, okay, I'm going to take Q and 3 and see what they add up to.
And any time thing times Q is always itself.
So Q times 3 is going to be 3.
Um, and 3 times Q is always going to be 3 also.
And Q times Q.
So basically like what it is, is it's Deterministic in the sense that
like one, one plus one is always two.
You never get a different result.
So because every time you, you move this wheel to this number,
every single character in there is always going to be identical.
I could do this process today.
I could die.
And then 50 years from now, you know, one of my family members can move the
wheel to the same exact position that I have in my keys, key set up and verify.
Like there's, there's nothing that will change.
You know, between now 50 years and a thousand years from
now with the same technology.
That's why I think it's so powerful because a hardware wallet, I mean,
say 10 years might be the max time that you would think a hardware wallet
would be good for just due to like maybe insecurities that might pop
up or even just functional things.
Like there's just like a hardware is not going to last forever.
So any kind of computational storage is, is basically Easy to compromise.
So you really need steel or something like that as your, as your storage method.
I think in addition to, um, I think electronics are just not reliable
for super long term storage.
So,
No, and speaking of Madeira, I mean, it's so, I'm so happy that you
made it to Europe twice this year.
Like, we, last time we met before that was in Miami and it's always
so, so great to see you and, and, and have these conversations with you and
you never know where things end up.
And I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but you just told me in Madeira that you
built the, auction site where you auction out the, uh, the art all by yourself.
So it's, it's, you're, you're like D I Y to the fullest extent.
uh, yeah, I, yeah, I did build the auction site myself, which was cool because that
way I could, you know, Kind of created the way that I wanted to create it and
that was also a neat thing about the art gallery at Madeira was that they gave me
a lot of leeway to do it the way that I thought would be neat and uh, so I think
the gallery that we had at Madeira was, you know, I've never seen an art gallery
that was cool like that because it was like exactly how I would want it to be.
So, um, I think things like allowing you to have, like, have your vision
and, and kind of put them in play into reality is, is very life changing.
And I think even, like when you came to Miami, I honestly didn't think, I didn't
see myself traveling to Europe for a long time because the travel restrictions
were just so heavy and I just, it was just such a hassle to travel that, and we
didn't know when that was going to stop, so I just didn't see it, and I honestly
haven't gotten to travel in a long time, so to get to do two events out of the
country and get to hang out with all these Bitcoiners and you guys specifically,
it's just so, it's so rewarding because what's happening is that I'm actually
getting to see the world using art as the vehicle that I travel through and
that's always been my vision, you know, I always want to kind of use the art.
I think that's the real benefit of the art is, is that it can help
me, you know, kind of grow and experience new things as a person.
And I think one of the things is you got to stack experiences, you
know, you got to go different places and put yourself in, in situations.
That aren't just you sitting in your bedroom at home, you know, like there's,
there's more out there in the world.
It's easy to sit in the bedroom at home, it's comfortable, but you know,
I think putting yourself outside the comfort zone is super important.
Absolutely.
100%.
And are the, the, I mean, I think this conference, I mean, the art
gallery in Madeira was fantastic.
But, uh, this one here, it's, uh, the gallery itself is simpler, but the,
the three artists they have, like, uh, you and Apex and Madex, you're
like the three top notch, uh, artists in the space, and did you, uh, were
they using your site for all the art
Oh,
yes, I got distracted there.
Yeah, we did use my site for all the auctions, so that, that was another thing.
So the auction site I think was something that was really powerful in
the sense that it gave me a vehicle to kind of middlemen and remove third
parties from Being able to sell my art, which is super unusual for artists.
You're like, most artists are beholden to a gallery.
You know, they don't sell their own art.
You know, it's like they make the art and they're good at art stuff.
And, but they don't actually worry about any of the sales part.
And I don't have anybody that's going to do the sales for me.
So I pretty much have to do it myself.
So, um, in the past I was, uh, you know, a hundred percent of my
marketing is basically Twitter.
I don't have really any other marketing plans.
I just post pictures on Twitter or videos and people will usually message me.
It was kind of how I first sold things before we did any auctions.
And then I think in December of 2020, Scare City did their first auction and
they were like a Bitcoin only auction site, uh, you know, Lightning main chain.
It was really cool physical art and I thought it was amazing.
So.
I did my first auction with them, I think in February of 2020 and,
um, Sailor bought the, the, um, the sculpture right after that auction.
So like that, that was a very big deal for me.
And I pretty much felt like we grew together for pretty much that whole year.
Like me and Scarcity together, we're really having a lot of
growth and having a really, you know, a really good integration.
But I think over time we just became a little ideologically, um, opposed
because I tend to be very hardline with some of the, the way that I do things
and they were very freeform and they kind of wanted to be inclusive of a lot
more art that, say, would like tokenize things and they kind of went full on
into the ordinals and the NFT, you know, they, they kept it on Bitcoin.
Which to me was even worse.
Um, so like, I love them.
I think they're great.
I love what they do, but I didn't want to kind of display my art next to a
lot of that because I felt number one, it may legitimize that in some way.
And also I just, I just didn't want to be a part of any of that.
It felt scammy in some sense.
Like, I just don't like the tokenized art because I'm not, the more I look into it,
the more unreal it seems like I've never been able to hit a point where, Oh, this
seems like a, Really awesome, wholesome idea and it's, it's good vibes and stuff.
So to me, I didn't want to be a part of that.
And then, uh, Bitblock boom, I displayed, I wanted to display, cause
it's like a Bitcoin only conference and, um, but ScareCity was doing
the, like the art gallery there.
So I said, okay, like I had reached out to them.
They told me all ScareCity's doing.
I said, okay, fine.
Let's see, you know, what's up.
So we'll do a, we'll do an auction together.
And, um, but we did an auction and it went well.
And then at the end, like.
The buyer actually told me that he paid for the auction using a credit
card and I was like that was a little too far for me at that point because
I really wanted to be bitcoin only and even though even though I did get paid
in bitcoin yes they pay me in bitcoin I just didn't like the fact that the the
buyers were able to pay in credit card that could be horrible on my part but
um, I wanted
it to be like I like I have a purity test I guess in some some sense it
may be horrible to say that but I just wanted it to be how I want it
No, but it's like, uh, someone selling puppies, and they don't
want to sell their puppies to, uh, to someone who's mean to dogs,
sure It's just like art, like every line in my art is, is meaningful in
the sense that I, I, I stress over it.
I want it to be perfect.
I want it to look right.
So even, even the sales of stuff.
I mean, we were kind of talking the other night about how certain,
certain things are not only the, not only the, for example, food.
If you're talking about organic, it's not only the, the food itself, but it's
actually everything that goes around it.
Like, you know, what are the inputs?
What's, what are the harvesting tools?
What are the, what are the transportation, like all those things have to be.
Organic as well and that has nothing to do with like the food that you actually
are eating, it's just the way that the human actions that are that are around
that so I think like my art I tend to do it in that in that way so because
because I just had felt that I didn't really want to be a part of that anymore
but I still wanted to sell my art and I love the Bitcoin auction format That I
just wanted to kind of do that on my own.
So I basically built the site just for myself so I could do
my own Bitcoin only auctions.
That was the original vision.
Um, because I just felt like, like I said, I wanted to continue doing it.
I wanted to do something.
Like if I don't feel in line with things, then I can't put my all into it, you know?
So I think by, by removing that, that middleman, then I tend not to do
collaborations with other people because I like to, I like to be very specific
with my, my direction and I like, I know where I'm going and I want to be
there and I don't want to compromise.
So by doing it myself, I didn't have to compromise.
And the Bitcoin Atlantis thing really helped in many ways because
I was, yes, I wanted to do that.
I was being a little lazy about it, but then when they asked me to do the
gallery, they also said, well, we'll, We, you know, can we use your site to
do the auctions if you're doing that?
And I was like, okay, yes.
And I said yes before I had it fully built.
So I was like, okay, like I need to, now I need to actually like get in and do it.
So I did have like five or six months to do it.
So it was plenty of time.
Cause it was, it was like half ish done, but I think going from half done
to full done takes more time than the first, than the first half, because
you're really have to refine everything.
So.
It helped me advance so much because now I felt responsible for other people.
Like it wasn't just, it wasn't just me that I had to do it right for.
I had actually like responsibility for all these other people that were going
to do it through the site as well.
So that made me want to do it as, as best as possible.
So I, you know, I was able to go through it, build it up.
And we actually had 80 auctions and they went from.
You know, really well, you know, you always have some bugs when you
expose a software to the public, but it, to me, I think went super well.
Um, all the artists did extremely well.
We had four or five auctions that didn't get paid for.
Um, and that's because I didn't put deposit requirements on it.
I was a little worried.
We were going through this like high, um, high fee spam attack at the time.
And, and fees were like almost, I want, I don't know what they were.
Let's say a hundred dollars for a transaction or 50 for a transaction.
So.
If you're going to leave a deposit on an auction, you know, to do that
on mainchain was very expensive.
So I was worried that that would cause people not to bid in the auction.
So I said, Oh, you know, eBay is like the biggest auction place in the world.
They don't make people put deposits, so it should be fine.
And, um, so I did that, but yeah, so there was like I would say of the 80
auctions, you know, 75 got paid for, we had five that didn't, but for the
five that didn't, it definitely hurt, you know, because you kind of think
you have that there and then, whatever.
So, this time we put deposit requirements.
And,
around how many bitcoin in total, like, went around those, like,
was on the site during Madeira?
Like, did it handle?
A
a, well,
You don't have to give away the exact
it actually, I mean, I handled everything perfectly.
It was, uh, BTC pay server is the back end of it, so it functions extremely well.
Um, that's another thing is like, okay, so the, the auction site allows me to be self
sovereign in the auctions, but so does the BTC pay server without that critical
piece, um, I couldn't do it.
And the, the neat thing is, is that basically the website platform I use
is called PrestaShop and PrestaShop is interesting because they are open
source, uh, free open source website development platform, e commerce platform.
So you can actually, you know, install PrestaShop for free and
you have an e commerce site, a very basic e commerce site.
And then everything on top of that is basically modules.
So you can kind of plug and play, you know, your theme or the way
that it looks or the functionality, all these different things.
So, um, BTC pay server has a module.
So like I just uninstalled every payment module module that it came with all the
fiat bullshit installed BTC pay server.
And then that, that is the unit of account on the website.
Like everything's priced in
Way to
and yeah.
And, um, it's so, and it's super functional.
I haven't had much problems.
And when I do have problems, they have.
Really good tech support.
So, you know, I go over to them and say, Hey, this is what's going on.
And it's kind of weird that like a free software project even has
good tech support because like I have paid software where you
don't even get good tech support.
So, you know, it's highly commendable.
And so I think like these are really important things because
these are tools that Bitcoiners are making for other Bitcoiners that
allow them to be self sovereign.
And.
Um, and even like, my art in a way, I feel like the Bitcoiners that buy it
or even that place the bids, um, those people are pretty much allowing me to
go farther with what I've already been able to do, so it's kind of like, every,
every art piece that I have is, is like a step up maybe, um, in a ladder.
And you can't, you can't reach the next step until you've already climbed
the lower ones, but it's hard to keep doing that if like no one supports you.
And so I think just the support and the feedback that I get
is so rewarding, you know?
So like, I think coming to these conferences is extremely rewarding in the
sense that if I create something and post some pictures or videos on Twitter, then
that's really the only way that a lot of people ever get to see some of the art.
And then it goes in a box and goes to a collector and then it goes in their
house and no, we don't ever see it again.
So the opportunity to bring it in front of 5, 000 people, 10, 000 people, 20, 000
people, and actually have them stand in front of it is really important to me.
Well, we spoke about, uh, touched a bit on the travel restrictions, but traveling
with art is no walk in the park in itself, even if there are no restrictions, right?
Is this here?
So can you tell us a bit about that, the stress of, like, shipping
these things across the world?
Well, yeah, there's a huge amount of stress with shipping
them across the world.
Like, I hadn't actually experienced that before, um, many times.
I've shipped a whole bunch of sculptures all over the planet.
I mean, I've done art for a long time, and I even had an Etsy store where we
shipped everything all over the world.
And I, I never had, like, much trouble with customs and stuff, but Portugal
definitely had some, some issues with customs that, that I ran into.
And it, you know, it wasn't even on the way in, but on the
way out, we had, we had issues.
And That kind of led to the creation of the current project that I had
because when, um, when we had, I don't know how far to get into this, but,
uh, yeah,
but, like, just to quickly say, like, the current one that I was making,
I wasn't even going to go to Prague because I just had a whole bunch of like
crazy things going on and I just didn't think I could make something in time.
It just, usually when I make a sculpture, it's, it's multi months
thing and I only had about a month and a half left at this time.
So, I even told the people at Prague, I was like, I don't think I can come,
um, because it's just, you know, how am I going to make something,
ship it out there and do all this?
And I actually had a conversation with another artist friend of
mine and I think they said, no, he's a really cool Bitcoin artist.
And he told me that, I can't miss the opportunity.
You know, like we just had a having, how could you not go to the thing?
You got to go and just see, you know, display some art.
He said, don't do one of your big production pieces.
Just do something simple.
You know, maybe you can do like three small things that fit in your, in your,
carry on and then you won't have to ship it.
And when he said that, it like a light clicked on in my head.
It kind of made it seem like.
Oh, and now this is possible because if it's something that I don't have to trust
someone else to like, you know, hold,
or even if I have to, I like, I don't even like trusting the guys to do the under the
carriage, uh, like the checked baggage.
So if it's a carry on size, then that I can actually do.
So I thought that was awesome.
And that basically flipped the script for me.
So that weekend I said, all right, if I can come up with a
design, then I can go to Prague.
And if I don't come up with a design, then I have to stay home.
This is, this is so funny, because like, just how taxes, uh, Shape
architecture over the centuries.
Yeah.
Uh, these, uh, like the, the, the airline rules for how big a hand
luggage, uh, a carry on luggage can be, is actually shaping art
. Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So I did the research.
I said, okay, what size, you know, what's the max size?
And, you know, I saw, okay, you can go up to 22 inches, uh, long and, you
know, you can go about 16 inches wide.
So 22 inches long, you know, Bitcoin, we got 21 then.
So, okay.
So I'm basically designed them all at 21 inches.
Um, but like that turned out to be a little tricky because bags actually
have a little extra stuff on the side.
And if I want to put padding and protect it, like.
That wasn't a hundred percent thought through.
So like after I bought my first bag, I cut like a little test one
just to see if it would fit and that shit didn't fit in there at all.
So I was like, okay, I work in something called Illustrator.
It's vector art.
So it's extremely easy to resize.
All you do is you just take it and you just say, this is the size I want it.
So you just, so I basically, I had only done the first one by
the time I made that mess up.
So I was able to do the other two at the correct size, but
the first one, I just resized.
And, um, to be honest, like when I put that one in the,
um, case, it didn't fit either.
And I ended up having to buy like three or four, um, different carry on cases
just to find the one that would fit.
And in the end, none of those actually worked.
I had to just buy a duffel bag that was slightly larger because what I did was I,
I, basically knew the size of the pieces.
So I did, I custom designed these exact size little.
rectangles that were basically three quarters of an inch smaller than
the max required size on any side.
And then I basically sandwiched them in.
So it was a perfect rectangle.
And then I put them in a duffel bag and it was like the exact
size that you needed to get.
I even like was like a little stressed that it was going
to fit in their carry on box.
So the first, I went like three hours early just to like, no one would see me.
And I'm just like checking it out and like goes in Yes!
If it didn't go in, I don't know what I would've done.
I was like, I was just gonna argue with them and say like,
I can't go if this can't go.
I'm so like amazed by the stress that must go into like, I, I
sell books at conferences, right?
And I assign books and whatnot, and they come in boxes and they all
look the same and like, they have a low, fairly low production cost.
there's a fairly low profit on them and it's like so there's no like if
anything happens or shipment doesn't arrive it's not the end of the
world and like you handle it uh but
No,
this is
seeing your yeah seeing seeing your pieces which is like half a year's work in is
one thing and that thing Well, if anything happens to it, that's like six years,
six months of work down the drain, right?
So it's a, it's a
worry just driving it from my house to the airport because like someone could hit
us as we're, you know, we can get into an accident and then it could be destroyed.
And, um, no man, like it was super high stress.
And when I, I, I went at first, the, you know, The ticket guy,
he was like, oh, we could check that for you for free at no cost.
It looks pretty big.
And, and I was like, no, I'm not checking this.
And then, uh, yeah.
And when I went around to the side to get in there, it didn't
have some kind of sticker.
And, and at first they argued, they didn't want to give me a sticker.
I went back and like, You need to put a sticker on this bag because
it's good.
It's coming with me like that It's extremely high stress because like you
said this is six months of my life, and I'm holding it with me I'm sorry.
You're not giving it to none of these people and I would go home You know
instead and so yes, it's extremely high stress in that sense, but I also
was stressed because my wife said TSA is most likely gonna wanna open
those cases and look at it, which made perfect sense to me, cause like,
you're basically walking through the security with three stargates, you know?
They're gonna be curious to see what the hell's going on.
So I kinda made it so that it would've been easy for me to open them up, I even
put my little white gloves and stuff, so if I had to open it up, cause TSA always
has gloves too, so I figured, you know, we'll be able to rock and roll with it.
Um, but whatever, I put it through the thing, totally expecting them to be
like, But they didn't even look at it.
It just went right
through and just came back to me.
And I was like, okay, let's go.
And yeah, so that like, it was like a lot of that where things just kind
of kept working out in the right way.
You know, I was able to get in, I was able to get in with a little
bit, you know, large looking bag, you know, they didn't search the stuff.
And, um, and not that it would have been a problem if they searched it.
I just don't want people touching things that they're not supposed
to like, you know.
Yeah, yeah, and they have such skewed incentives, like, they have to Catch one
or two or like look through one or two on like every hundred, hundredth bag or
something because otherwise they're not doing their job and so they do random
stuff and I've seen when I worked on the tall ship like ages ago, there was one
of the students who went from, we flew from Cartagena, Colombia, via Miami,
via, uh, I think Charles de Gaulle in, uh, Paris, and, uh, back to Sweden.
And when we come out of the, um, of the airport, he's like, Oh, holy
shit, I've had this on me all the way.
And there's like a 5 wrench, literally in his back pocket.
And he had just gone through all of those machines in all of the airports.
It's like, So much of it is just random and just, uh, just fake, uh,
and it's just there to scare people.
Man, you would think, yeah, the metal wrench of all things would have
raised an alarm, like, you
uh, apparently it worked.
He could walk through
Oh, wow.
three continents.
would have made me even more paranoid.
It's not, not even the fact that they look like stargates.
You might just be the, you just might be the number.
Like, oh, you're the random guy that we pick, so.
Yeah, and it's one of those things that I went very early
just to deal with any nonsense.
Like, I don't want to like, hey, if they're going to pull this out, they're
probably going to, what is this?
And I'm going to have to lie and say that it's like, you know, an
astronomical thing that I'm going to talk about at a math conference about,
because I don't want to just get into the Bitcoin thing with some stranger.
That's not entirely
Yeah, no, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, it's not a lie, but it's, you know, coloring the truth, you know,
Yeah, yeah,
uh, the thing is, is like, if you, if I say, like, this is a
cryptographic computer that creates Bitcoin keys, then, you know, that
might just be too interesting.
Yeah.
How do you, how do you handle the stress?
Like, do you have, uh, ways of handling that type of stress?
I think it's just like, cannabis is probably the answer.
So, yeah, no, I, I think my, I think that my composition is such that I, I
have been through a lot of stressful events in the past, so I, I kinda have
some training, like, you know, if you exercise certain muscles, then you
get, like, a little stronger, I just seem to always have the craziest shit
happen to me, so, like, I, like, amp up my stress exercise, and I think I'm
just a tiny bit more resilient and, and adaptive, which helps me, because,
Um, cause life is just tough, dude.
You know, you just run into just so many obstacles.
And I think like the important thing is like kind of, we were saying with the TV,
you just can't let that stuff stop you because what, you know, I'm on a mission
here, I'm on a mission to actually do things that are very cool for Bitcoin.
I don't know what that is exactly, but the mission is to make cool stuff for Bitcoin.
And, and I think like that's important and that's what I need to focus on and
anything that distracts from that, I have to ruthlessly kind of, you know,
excommunicate that from my life and, and really be purposeful about what I'm
So, what I spend my time on, um, that's why, you know, cause a lot of times
I'll spend a lot of time working on a project that just never manifests like,
oh, you know, you think this is cool, you're working on it and it actually
may be super cool, but then I'll get distracted, you know, like I'll get like
this momentary like idea and it's like, oh, you kind of have to follow that for
a minute and just see where that goes.
And I've had so many of my pieces just arise like that.
And Um, even this one is, is basically like that.
I had started that Codex32 thing months and months ago.
It was in circles, didn't even look like this.
I started sketching out the rectangle thing after I got back from Madeira
a little, but if I showed you what I started the weekend with, and I
will, I, I'm going to have to show you now and post, post pictures of it.
It's, it's.
It's like, kindergarten level chicken scratch type stuff.
I mean, all I did was, all I did was place, place the items, like
this is where it's gonna go.
Like, zero design work is just a bunch of like, nothing.
And then, um, but, this is actually part of a much bigger project.
Like, I'm working on this Codex 32.
Like a full on computer.
This, this one has most everything that you need, but there's a lot missing.
There's a lot of other things that would be really nice if you could just
integrate it all in the whole piece.
So there's no additional worksheets that you need or no additional lookup tables.
Um, and, but to do that, it's going to have to be a
relatively grand, large piece.
And the funny thing is, is people always ask me, they're like, Oh, this is big.
Can you do something smaller?
And it's like, first, my friend told me, can you do something simple?
He don't know.
I can't do simple.
And it's not that I can't do small.
I just.
I just like to do a lot of details.
So in order to fit in as much as I can, it kind of starts enlarging.
Like I'll start with a small thing and then I'm like, Oh, I need
to make this a little bigger.
So this is, Oh, so things just kind of start to move.
And, um, I think I just like that better.
Like, I'm not the kind of guy that's going to make 200 of these little things
over and over and over again, because I like to, I like to kind of do things
different because I help grow as a person and an artist and an individual.
So I'd rather spend six months working on something that's actually, Almost too hard
for me to do, like, where I don't think I can do this, rather than a production
thing that, okay, I've built these skills and I know I can do this and I can kind
of repetitively complete this process.
I'd rather do something that's actually scary, in the sense that
we're gonna invest money, we're gonna invest resources, we're gonna invest
time, and we have zero Guarantees here, you know what I'm saying?
So, um, those type of risks are important to take because if you fail
at like 10 of them, it's not a big deal if you can crush one of them,
because then that's something that was impossible for you before, and that's
now become something that's possible.
So it kind of broadens your sphere of Um, what you can do as a person and an artist.
And once you have that, then that's, that's the conquered realm.
Now you can additionally level up and do something else that you couldn't do.
And that's kind of what drives me forward in this.
So, uh, the codex 32 project that I'm working on, actually
the three separate pieces are all actually one, uh, Dice Tower.
So the three actually combine into a triangle and you're able to put dice
right on the top and they come down and at the bottom of each, uh, codex
32, there's like a little door window.
It's almost like a temple entrance and then the dice will come out
of that onto the platform and yeah, I'm really excited for this.
I think it's going to be super cool and it's just going to take me a little while
and I think like the cool thing is, is This project was like an incremental
step because it helps me, it helps to show me that this is possible, you know?
Because like I was saying, there's zero guarantees that I'm going to be able to do
this vision in my head, but by taking this little incremental step, it really made
it seem like, okay, number one, this is cool and people are interested in it too.
So, it's not like you're spending a, you know, a year on something that
people are like, okay, well, that's cool, you know, very interesting.
But I got such a, such a Overwhelming response from all the people
that I talked to at the event.
Um, because I think like as an artist, you always, you have your high watermarks.
And I think for me, it's the full node sculpture.
Um, that's kind of like, I always would like to make
something that's at that level.
And I had some people that were telling me, Oh, this is either at that.
I even had some people that told me that was better.
I don't know if I believe it, but, um, but it was very, It
was very rewarding to hear that.
Cause it's kind of like, Hey, maybe you can reach that high level.
It's not like, Oh, once you do something great, you maybe
never get to that level again.
Um, it's like, no, actually, if you do work, um, you may be able
to find a path into not only that level, but actually higher than that.
Um, so I think that that's what I'm trying
No, I think this, this one is, uh, is right up there with
the, with the full node statue.
I, I, I mean, I don't know which one of your pieces I love the most.
Of course, the, the infinity keys is special and close to my heart.
And like, for me, that's, that's what I'm, I'm aiming to top.
And I don't think I'll ever like, That thing with all of it's history
and Infinity Day and all of this weird stuff that happened around it.
That, that, things like that just don't happen twice, like, uh.
Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah.
See, I guess we go through the same stuff, even though we work in different
mediums, it's like the same questioning yourself, like, can I like, once I've,
once I've achieved a certain level of like, Hey, this is very interesting.
Cool thing.
You know, can you ever do that again?
And I think the answer is, is obviously yes.
It's just that it's difficult to
the answer is, well, if you don't try, you can't.
Like, it's certain that you can't if you don't try, so like, regardless, and you
should never forget that you, if you had something that got a lot of attention
because people like it, then you're lucky.
Like, um.
Uh, it's, uh, it's, um, a blessing.
I mean,
Absolutely.
Yeah.
That I think the luck is 100 percent part of it.
But I was going to also say, if you have something that people thought
is interesting, um, to some degree that all came from within you,
you know, it's like something that you were able to take from nothing
and kind of bring into the world.
And then other people React to it however they react to it.
I think that's so cool with, um, the art that I do is that I can
kind of have an idea in the morning.
I could sketch it up on the computer, um, before lunch.
I could go out to the laser and just cut it up and I have it
in my hand in a couple hours.
It's basically like a magic wand.
You've just taken some, you know, Thought and turned it into reality.
Um,
Yeah, super cool.
Yeah, yeah, that's what writing feels like, well, and we've had a lot of
conversations about creativity in general, you and I, because like, it's such a, it's
such an odd beast to try to tame, right.
And, uh, and I really love, like, listening to other
people's processes about it.
So when you say that it came from within, like, the weirdest
thing for me is like the best creative work I've done, ever done.
It sort of feels like it comes from outside of me and I'm
sort of channeling something.
Do you have like a similar feeling?
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think like, um, and, and, and, and I'm, I actually heard kind of a, a
little snippet the other day where I think Quentin Tarantino was talking to some,
another actress and they had a similar.
Uh, conversation.
And, and I think that that is a common feeling because when I'm actually doing
my best work, like you're saying, I find myself to usually be in a state where,
you know, it's the flow state in the sense that things are kind of timeless.
I'm actually just kind of working and things are just
kind of falling into place.
And, and I have, I was telling you that last night I have the two,
the two types of, of production.
That I usually try to settle into for art.
Um, I always say, uh, create high edits over.
And that basically means that, you know, like you have a space for
each, you know, you have a space to be highly creative where you're
not too worried about boundaries.
You actually just kind of want to create form or shape to your idea.
And you understand that that's not the final form.
You know, you're just trying to To release what's within you.
And I think that's the part that I
think comes from without me.
And then like, there's an ordering part of the art that I do where it's like, okay,
now we have like a basic, a basic idea.
Now let's bring form to, to the shape.
Um, so things like these sculptures were actually had to make them function first.
So I'll do like a function over form at first.
So first you have to make sure the device functions.
If not, then it's worthless.
So once you have the function down, then you can actually start, you
know, Seeing what it looks like and I think like both of these both
of these things are are relevant
reminds me so much about music.
And it doesn't matter if we're talking about improvising or doing
your own songs or doing covers of whatever, like you need, you need
some form of, uh, Orderliness.
Uh, like you need to know what you're doing.
But, but, but yeah.
But you also need to be creative and like, make choices on the spot and
listen and, and try to, uh, convey a, a feeling, which is completely different.
I think it's like, uh, a right brain, left brain sort of thing.
Absolutely, yeah, you know and as you say that it actually brought me to Some of the
way that I do the art a lot of it is like that in a way and improvisation Almost
like even to the point when I'm cutting pieces out It's very tricky because when
I do the design work, I do it all, um, mostly I either use it in Illustrator,
which would be entirely 2D, or I do some stuff in, uh, in Fusion, which is 3D.
The 3D stuff, you actually get a lot better sense of what it
looks like because the software lets you kind of roll it around.
You can see if things fit and you can actually even do some, um, physics with
it and I can like do gearing and things.
It's pretty neat.
Um, but I don't do a lot of my work in, in that in, in 3D.
Because I'm more comfortable in Illustrator, which is a vector program,
uh, I kind of interchange between the two.
But like for the full node sculpture, I didn't know how to use Fusion at first.
So, I did everything in Illustrator.
So, all I have at the end when I'm done with the design, It's basically what you
could think of as a coloring book page.
It basically is just like the black and white version of it.
And in fact, it doesn't even, it doesn't look how it would
when it's done because it's all separated out into different pieces.
So when you see the full node, you're actually looking at, you know, hundreds
of pieces that I've cut individually.
So I have each one of those as a separate design file.
And what I'm getting at is that I have no idea what it's going to
look like when it's put together.
All I know is like.
Like I have a little vision of it, but until I actually put it together,
like when I actually get the things together, the very last piece of it
is always like really cool because now it's like I actually finally
see what it looks like after all.
It's like your baby's born, you know, like
you actually see what they look like and up until then it was just a dream and
there's a lot of changes that go through.
So the improvisation part is that.
I have this design, I'm cutting it out.
When I'm cutting it out of the material, whether it's wood or mirror or whatever it
is, sometimes it just doesn't look right.
You know, like okay, like I've cut this, it cut perfectly, I put it
with the rest of it and it just, it just doesn't mesh together.
These don't go together.
And that means that I either one, have to change the original design, so I
go back into Illustrator, make the changes and now, and now it works.
Or I just have to cut a different material.
Like sometimes like with wood, it's extremely tricky because I like to,
I like it to, you Have an interplay between dark wood and light wood
and, you know, and stained and shiny and all this different thing.
So, um, sometimes it just, it's not cohesive, the look.
And so you end up cutting a whole bunch of pieces that just actually may be
cool on their own, for example, but they just don't work in the piece.
So I actually have like a little box of all the, the off cuts of things that,
hey, this would be cool if it, you know.
It fit, but you know, it didn't, but there's actually a huge amount of
stuff that you don't see going into it.
And I kind of think of that as improvisation.
It's like, you don't know until, you don't know until it's there and you're
putting it in and you can see it.
And it's like, okay, that doesn't work.
And now I have to do this.
And, and it's just a matter of kind of working with the materials that
you have to actually bring about this.
This, uh, this form that's actually just been in your brain and now you're
trying to translate it to the world.
And I think that's another thing with art that I try to do is, um, I can only
do something that I find interesting.
Cause like we were saying, it's something that I'm going to dedicate,
you know, months of my life to.
This is a significant amount of time in my life.
If I waste that time, it's never coming back.
So it has to be something important to me in order for me to dedicate
some time to do art on it.
So, um, and then for the most part, like a lot of these art projects
become the most important thing to me.
At the time, as far as, you know, outside of family and people like
that, it's actually becomes the driving force of what's kind of
bringing, waking me up in the morning is, you know, creating this vision.
And I think, like, the main goal is to say, hey, I'm interested in this.
This is why you should be interested in it and see if other people are.
And I think, like, a lot of people actually are interested
in some of the things that I am.
And sometimes, They would be interested, they just don't know it.
So you bring them into it.
For example, the Codex 32 thing is, is a really good example, for example.
So, um, Codex 32 is an obscure cryptographic spec.
There's just not many people that are gonna encounter it in the first place.
If they did encounter it, they wouldn't think it was cool because
they don't know what it does.
They don't understand it.
And they just wouldn't take the time to learn about it.
And it just wouldn't come in contact with their life.
Even the people that made Codex 32, like, they have the problem of how
do you get people interested in it?
You know, like, like we've, we've worked really hard on this project
and there's probably, you know, Only a handful of people in the world
that will really understand the math and then maybe like another bunch of
them that will sit there and do it.
So, how do we get people to know that this is something cool
that they might want to use?
So, I think art is an amazingly powerful tool because, okay, I made
some, uh, you know, I made the art, I made some videos of it, and now
basically the little video that I put 000 views, maybe almost 200, 000 by now.
And that's 200, 000 people that maybe they didn't watch the whole
video but they now have been exposed to Codex 32 and they probably, I
would say, 199, 000 wouldn't have,
Yeah, yeah, probably a hundred and ninety nine thousand nine hundred
still don't understand what it is.
That's fine, that's fine.
In fact, my wife was telling me when I was making it, she's like, I don't
understand this, like, I'm sure all your Bitcoiner friends are gonna know
exactly what this is but this is a little much for me and I was like, no, I
think Codex 32 is a little esoteric for everybody but I think that's perfect.
I like
that.
So did any of the the Codex 32 developers like reach out to
you or talk to you about it?
Have you talked to him?
I kind of did it like I did for your book where I didn't tell anybody I was
doing that until it was already done.
So, um, I basically just did the work and then I was a little nervous to send
it to him because I think like it's like any kind of art that I make, I'm
always nervous to show it to people.
So, even though I had displayed it to the world.
I didn't actually send them a direct link, but I did, I did, um, have
to message them because I had a question when I was actually using the
Codex 32 to make some keys, I had a problem with one of the results and I
thought, like, I didn't understand it, so I actually had to, to message them
because I wanted to make sure that the, the Codex 32 actually worked and I could
use it if I was going to put my time and actually make an art project with it.
So the first time I did it, um, the interesting thing is, is if you do
the math wrong, when you're, when you're doing the codex 32 math, it's
very obvious because, um, at the end you should get a specific result.
It says secret share 32, and that's a factor of that, that.
That's 32 addition that I was saying.
So every, every time you multiply a letter times a number, whatever
it is, it gives you another result.
So at the end, your final result would be the secret share 32.
If you mess up early in the calculation, you get totally jumbled
stuff and you're not even close.
But what I did was I messed up.
One little character all the way towards the end of it.
So I got like secret share 32, but instead of the S it was
a three or a five, I think.
And that just didn't make sense.
And I actually did the math twice and it came up that way twice.
Um, so I thought, Oh, Codex 32 is broken.
Like what the hell this is like, how could this be?
Um, like they're trying to perpetrate, like you can just sit here and do
this and I'm getting this result.
That just doesn't make sense.
I was like, I guess it must be me, but I don't know.
You know, like you felt like
the first time.
Okay.
You get it wrong.
The second time.
That's a little weird.
So I emailed the guy, I'm gonna tell him what the problem is.
Uh, well, you know, one of the developers, cause in the, in the codex 32 book, it
says, Oh, if you have questions, you know, email this, you know, Perl words need.
So I emailed them and they were like, Oh, okay, well, you know, your
problem is going to be in box 43.
It has to be this, unless you did one of, uh, five weird, purposeful
things that I'm sure you didn't do.
So here's how you can go back and check it.
But basically.
You done fucked up your math was what he
All right.
he was right even though I did it twice I did it incorrectly twice and that when
I actually did it right and he said oh, yeah the difference between H and 3 is
a 5 or something and Bro, that was the actual difference in my fucking thing
It turned out to be that it was that exact letter that he said it probably was
gonna be And I had asked like, Oh, can I just maybe like do the math backwards?
And then that will show me, he's like, no, you actually have to
go back and just, you know, look and see if, if you did it right.
Because he's like, you know, you didn't.
And, uh, and yeah, within 30 minutes I went back and I saw
what it was and I was amazed.
I was like, okay, so, um, this is what it is.
And.
Yes, it's frustrating to go through it and do it.
And it's not right.
And cause that means that you have to do it again.
And it takes about an hour or two to generate a key.
But if it's a key you're generating the whole Bitcoin in for a thousand years, you
know, the hour or two is, is commensurate.
Like you're not, I don't think that that's too much.
And, and you have to verify it.
So once you create the key, you always have to verify it.
You do every one twice just to be sure.
Um, and I messed up every key at least once when I was doing it,
when I was doing the keys, I made it, I made a two of three set up.
Each of the three keys I did the math wrong once on it.
And, uh, yeah, but so, so I had to do them all three times at least, but it was
really cool because you just get better at it as you, as you go on, it's a little
meditative to go through the process.
And, um, but the fact is like, once you hit that secret share 32, it's
like, damn, you know, like your keys, integrities and shared for a thousand
years, you don't have to worry about it.
If you don't hit that, then, you know, you, you messed up.
Yeah, I mean, if this sounds complicated, you can always just download Wallet of
Satoshi or buy the ETF or something.
exactly.
anyway, you mentioned this, um, the beginning of like, that's how we got
to know one another is when I noticed it was from one of your videos for on,
on Twitter, yeah, and I saw my book titled Sovereignty Through Mathematics
on one of the rings of the thing, and I'm super excited, and I DM'd you, and,
and you said that you listened to the book while you made the statue, and,
and, uh, that's how our friendship started, and now we've been total super
bros for, for years now after that, and
you
so much together.
you know, just like I said I was worried to kind of show these
Codex 32 guys the art that I did.
I was worried for you to see that a
little because I didn't know how you're going to react.
You might say like, hey, you put my book title in your art without asking
me what kind of bullshit is this.
But that's why I like to do it first and, you know, I
always say it's better to ask for forgiveness than, uh,
Permission.
Yeah.
forgiveness than ask permission
because, you know, then it's already done.
Like, what
could we do?
Well, Fractal, it's, it's fantastic to have you back in Europe and that we get
to hang out and then do stuff together.
I, I treasure your friendship a lot and our conversations and our
little stupid projects together.
I think it's fantastic.
happy I
to have you here.
Anything else on your mind you want to tell people about?
Um,
Anyway, you want to send our listeners?
well, I guess if you want to check me out on Twitter, I'm at Fractal Encrypt.
And then I also have the website that we were talking about
that, uh, that we had the auctions on.
I do have some art there that you could
You on
out anytime.
Uh, I am on Nostr as well, but I've only had like a couple of posts there.
So, um, but I do have a custom, a custom, uh, vanity and pub that I mined myself.
So it's a,
Of course you do.
What else?
yeah, yeah, yeah, I got that.
I got that.
Yeah.
Check me out all over.
Fantastic.
Well, yeah.
Um, always great to have you on.
So Ractal and Krip,
a
so
absolutely.
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.
Thanks for listening.