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First and foremost, the idea is that in a free private CD, a private,

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service provider guarantees you protection of life, liberty, and

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property based on a contract.

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you have rights, like the right we left alone, and other obligations like to

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follow the rules that are in the contract and with your signature, you accept those

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rules, but on the other hand, that means that I cannot change the contract later.

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. So both sign the contract, you are protected.

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And there will be external arbitration or courts that will, in case of

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conflict of interest, make a decision.

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So it's not my courts or arbitration that will make this decision.

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This is an additional level of protection.

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I think Bitcoin has made more for our libertarian cause than any other

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development in the last 20 years.

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I see this with our free private cities and the Liberty for Lifetime conference

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about half of the newcomers coming somewhere from the libertarian side,

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the other half from the bitcoiner side.

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So It's still a very small portion of the people who have understood

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that, but Bitcoin and books like Bitcoin Standard, have supported that.

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Right?

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So then more people understand those Austrian findings.

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We knew this, our people knew this 100 years ago, right?

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But it's a tiny fraction, but now the young people starting to see that.

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And I think we were still only at the beginning, which also gives me some hope.

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This is the Freedom Footprint Show, a Bitcoin philosophy show with

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Knut Svanholm and me, Luke DeWolf.

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And we love to expand our freedom footprint.

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We hope you do too.

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The best way to do that is of course to emit as much freedom dioxide as possible.

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The best tool we have for doing that is of course Bitcoin.

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Before we dive into today's show, we'd just like to tell you a little

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bit about how you can support us.

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First, to support us directly with Bitcoin, visit our Geyser page at geyser.

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fund slash project slash freedom.

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Or you can send us sats directly to freedom at geyser.

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fund.

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The app is available on Apple and Android and you can stream sats or send a boost.

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It's the easiest way to support the show just by listening normally.

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And if you don't care too much about Luke, you can always visit knutsvanholm.

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com, where you can buy my fabulous wine, my books, and a t shirt or two.

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And if you don't feel like supporting your fellow Bitcoiners at all, at least

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like, subscribe and brush your teeth.

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But seriously, that stuff actually helps.

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It'd be great if you could subscribe to the YouTube channel, like the videos,

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send us a comment or leave us a review.

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All this stuff really helps the show.

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Seriously.

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Click the damn bell!

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So thanks for tuning in to the show, and we hope you enjoyed today's episode.

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Titus Gebel, welcome to the Freedom Footprint Show.

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Thank you so much for joining us.

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My pleasure.

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Yeah, good to see you, Titus.

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Last time we saw each other was in Prague, I believe.

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I was a bit late.

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I missed my flight, but I managed to catch the last half

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day of the conference, at least.

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It's always a, a great event, the Free Cities, conference in Prague.

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but first, before we get into all that, can you give us a little

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introduction to yourself to those of you that don't know you?

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Uh, A-T-L-D-R on, uh, T two Gable.

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Yeah, sure.

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Um, so, my name is Titus Gebel.

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I'm a German national, uh, born and raised there, but, uh, now resident

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in Monaco since about 10 years.

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and I, I have an education as a lawyer, a PhD in international law, um, and

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worked, uh, five years as a lawyer, but found out then this is not what I

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want to do until the rest of my days.

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And, um, so I was more interested in business and became a

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manager in the biotech industry.

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Uh, then switched sides to venture capital, um, who were financing

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those types of things and eventually founded my own company, interestingly,

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in an unrelated area in resources.

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I was mining, um, especially gold, silver, tin, lead, zinc, all these things.

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And, uh, we started, uh, a company called Deutsche Rochstoffer GmbH and the partner.

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back in 2006, um, where nobody was interested in that, uh, subject, uh,

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but we, we could see it coming that, uh, the big demand from China, and at the

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same time, the decay of the traditional mining projects and industries, and

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nobody wanted to study geology or, uh, mining engineering any longer.

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Um, and at the same time, you had that high demand from China, right?

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And just to put it in perspective, in the early 2000s, before the big China

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boom began, China was accounting for a consumption of 10 percent of all

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world metals, and today it's 25%.

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So this thought was obviously correct and the only solution how

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you could solve that is prices going up and that happened, right?

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And so we were successful with Deutsche Rohstoff and And when public in 2010, uh,

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we added later oil and gas, uh, and it was all practically always the same story.

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There were old mining engineers from the established industry coming to

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us saying, yeah, they have closed down this and that, but there was no

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need to close it down, so why don't you reopen it and I can help you.

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And so that brought, uh, the, the necessary knowledge.

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Uh, of experienced senior people into our company.

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And, um, again, that was a big success and I could retire at the end of 2014, being

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CEO for eight years of Deutsche Rohstoff.

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And again, we went public in 2010.

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And, out of frustration with politics, I've been, uh, I would say

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libertarian or, as we said at that time, liberal, classical liberal.

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for many years and, and I, I just saw that there is no chance that we ever get

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the majority for the ideas of free market self responsibility and, and those things.

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That is at least my, my finding.

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And so I thought, okay, what can we do about it?

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And I came up with a new product.

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Which is called a free private city.

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We can discuss this later.

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And then at the same time I said, okay, I don't want just to develop

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an idea because I have a lot of experience in setting up businesses.

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I've been in the venture capital industry for about 20 years.

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and I still am involved in the resources industry a bit, but my My idea was,

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okay, let's create a company that is making free private cities a reality.

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And, uh, I was also asked at that time by the people who set up what

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is today Prospera, the first CD, to help them with structuring because

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they were not totally satisfied with the idea the Honduran government had.

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And I, and they liked my idea about private governance.

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And so we developed a kind of a hybrid model, and let it approved

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by the Honduran government.

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So I was, uh, working there not only as an investor, but also as a chief

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legal officer from 2017 to 2019.

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And, uh, eventually we got it approved, right?

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It was, it was a hard thing because you, you, there was a law called the

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city law, but there were many, many.

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Things unclear.

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So we had to negotiate all this with the, with the government and that

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was, uh, was eventually successful.

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And then after that, uh, was finished, I, I tried to start, uh, I, I did my own

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company in order to make own projects.

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And this company is called Tipolis.

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It's based in Singapore.

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And we are currently negotiating with, uh, about 10 governments and government,

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government near, uh, People are about the establishment of, uh, of such,

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uh, autonomous regions where we can, integrate more Austin economics, more

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market, uh, principles and more freedom.

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without the need to overthrow or to, to flip a whole country.

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That's, that's in a nutshell my story.

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Uh, well, that's a, that's an L-T-L-D-R, but it's a good one.

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uh, you can't really, you can't really skip any of those parts.

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It's a fantastic.

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CV.

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okay.

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I'd like to pin down a couple of things because you said one of

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the best, uh, things I've heard.

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Uh, like, like a phrase that, uh, really stuck with me, uh, not this

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conference, but the year before in your opening speech to the whole thing.

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And that was like, uh, the only human right is the right to be left alone,

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because it's the only human right that, uh, imply, implicit in that was

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that this is the only human right that can be valid for all people at all

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times, uh, past, present, and future.

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And I, I really love that.

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So I'd like to pinpoint you, uh, on where you are on a libertarian,

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like, anarcho capitalistic scale.

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Are you in the Are you more a Misesian or a Rothbardian?

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Like, do you think any state is needed?

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Or should we, would we be better off if we rid ourselves of the entire thing?

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Yeah, I'm somewhere, I'm somewhere out of that box because I think, what I'm

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propagating It's a kind of a state, it's a classical liberal minimal state,

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but it's run by a private company, so it's somewhat, uh, which does not

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fit into any of those descriptions.

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It's not really a state, right?

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It's, but it's, the services of a state are provided.

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And my, my personal view is that as long as people like to live in a state

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and have the right to leave, Why not?

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Right?

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And it's, the market has proven that states are in demand and that

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states are obviously successful, otherwise they wouldn't have been

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in existence for such a long time.

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So I'm kind of agnostic.

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I would say, do not believe that there's one system that fits all.

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Like, because as a free market person, I like to go to the supermarket and let's

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just take one area of chocolate, right?

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I mean, a wise, vogue governor could say two kinds of chocolate

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are enough for you guys, right?

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And I said, no, I prefer that there are 10 or 20 different types of

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chocolate so that I can choose.

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Right?

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And this is the same for everything.

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So I don't need neither a libertarian scholar nor a woke politician

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to tell me what's best for me.

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So I want to choose for myself.

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And if my choice is, I want to live in a private city, and that has to

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be, I expect this to be respected.

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But if my choice is I want to live in a, in a, uh, legacy nation state, I can,

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I, I am respecting this as well, right?

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So, and, and I think that, and I made a point in my book,

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um, I haven't mentioned it.

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I wrote a book when I arrived in Monaco, uh, for three years

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called Free Private Cities, Making Governments Compete for You.

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That's my idea, right?

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To create a new product and a market of living together.

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You don't need a majority for that.

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Once it's established, then people can vote with their feet.

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And maybe, and I made a point in my book, some people might

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really prefer this more anarcho capitalist system without any state.

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For a period in their life, but then at another period, they might be more

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willing to go to, if they're young, to communitarian, more leftist oriented

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society, and at the end, they might prefer living with their peers in

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a more conservative nation state.

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And this can all be, I don't know, and I don't want to tell

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people what's good for them.

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The only thing I'm offering is, a model of living together where, which

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is based on libertarian principles, or let's say, let's, at least, uh, the

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principle that people need protection of life, liberty, and property.

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But in exchange, they have to pay something for that.

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So it's a pure service.

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So it's not the state thinking any longer, there's big brother

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and he's taking care of you.

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It's a pure service provider and you pay him for that.

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So it's basically strapping the state from all its fanfare and all its glory.

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And it's not even a state any longer.

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It's a service provider who's doing those things.

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But on the other hand, I don't think that Having no monopoly of force in

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such a state, in such a city would work, because, if you, if you really say,

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okay, let's find, let market find out who is our best protectors, protection

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service, then very probably The one with the strongest security agency,

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they can do whatever they want, right?

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Because nobody else can beat them.

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So, I don't think that that is attractive.

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Of course it can be then settled over years and years, but until then, families

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and And normal people would not come.

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So that is just something which I think is not working, as well as you do not

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have different security organizations on a cruise ship or on a holiday resort, right?

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You have only one.

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And the choice that you have is between this cruise ship and another one.

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And that is about the same with me.

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I say, okay, if you don't like my model, go somewhere else.

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Because I think if I skip that, um, security provision, which is my

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main product, I promise you security for life, liberty, and property.

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If I cannot fulfill that, it's probably not going to work.

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But I'm also agnostic on that.

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If you prove me wrong, in reality, I will adapt my model, but I don't

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think that is going to happen.

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And so let's, let's find out the best thing.

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The same is true with open borders in a way that everybody

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can come without any control.

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It's not going to work, right?

234
00:14:28,071 --> 00:14:33,351
If you think this is because Brian Kaplan wrote that, he's a great

235
00:14:33,351 --> 00:14:35,541
guy, but that is not going to work.

236
00:14:35,881 --> 00:14:41,181
And for the fact alone that you cannot guarantee security if you

237
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do not control your borders, right?

238
00:14:43,501 --> 00:14:47,331
And the moment you have reached a certain level of wealth, And just

239
00:14:47,461 --> 00:14:50,481
criminals will come in and go out again.

240
00:14:50,801 --> 00:14:53,301
We have seen this over and over in time, and you are subject

241
00:14:53,321 --> 00:14:54,611
to invasion and all that.

242
00:14:54,811 --> 00:15:01,241
So, that is, um, here my point, and I think that's how the world should work.

243
00:15:01,291 --> 00:15:07,516
So, if you have a certain idea, which is probably not or has the same views

244
00:15:07,736 --> 00:15:12,616
as mine, then you should be absolutely free to introduce your product

245
00:15:12,696 --> 00:15:14,306
in the market of living together.

246
00:15:14,716 --> 00:15:16,426
And then let the market find out.

247
00:15:17,066 --> 00:15:25,157
My prediction is that over time, it, it will, it will just

248
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be decided by some products surviving and others disappearing,

249
00:15:31,707 --> 00:15:33,507
which are the models that work.

250
00:15:34,257 --> 00:15:38,047
And, uh, Joe Quirk, who is the president of the Seasteading Institute,

251
00:15:38,057 --> 00:15:42,457
has, has, uh, has coined the phrase, he said, 50 years from now, the

252
00:15:42,457 --> 00:15:46,797
most successful societies will not cater to any of today's ideologies.

253
00:15:48,102 --> 00:15:49,372
And that might be true, right?

254
00:15:49,372 --> 00:15:55,692
Because this is a decision, a competition is a discovery process.

255
00:15:56,162 --> 00:16:01,542
And we will see, hey, maybe this idea of Titus is quite good, but not in all areas.

256
00:16:01,912 --> 00:16:08,052
And that it has developed into another variation and or has split.

257
00:16:08,682 --> 00:16:11,262
We will probably then see that there's not a single model.

258
00:16:11,262 --> 00:16:14,862
I said this before, but we have different models for different tastes.

259
00:16:15,562 --> 00:16:20,332
Right, because some people, they might only want to live in an anarcho capitalist

260
00:16:20,372 --> 00:16:25,142
environment, and I'm happy to give them, let's say, the area, right, the NCAP

261
00:16:25,142 --> 00:16:29,482
zone within my free cities, that can happen, I have no problem with that.

262
00:16:30,092 --> 00:16:34,732
Um, but other people say, no, I need more rules, right, I need guidance,

263
00:16:35,632 --> 00:16:39,472
religious guidance or whatever, you name it, and we have to respect that.

264
00:16:39,472 --> 00:16:40,112
People are different.

265
00:16:40,787 --> 00:16:42,897
Most people are not libertarian.

266
00:16:42,907 --> 00:16:44,817
You have also to admit that, right?

267
00:16:45,449 --> 00:16:49,993
That doesn't mean that probably most people could be very happy in a

268
00:16:50,003 --> 00:16:54,683
libertarian environment, but if they had created it, it would not be libertarian.

269
00:16:55,552 --> 00:17:00,022
The other thing that is, stands out of these three private cities model

270
00:17:00,072 --> 00:17:06,618
is that if you create this as a service, then there will be a service

271
00:17:06,618 --> 00:17:08,588
contract with each of the residents.

272
00:17:09,088 --> 00:17:13,198
And this is a very interesting fact because it means there is no forum,

273
00:17:14,058 --> 00:17:18,078
not a parliament, not a government, not a majority referendum that can

274
00:17:18,108 --> 00:17:20,248
interfere in that bilateral agreement.

275
00:17:21,458 --> 00:17:25,558
that is giving us the protection that we are constantly losing

276
00:17:25,708 --> 00:17:27,818
in the legacy systems of today.

277
00:17:28,448 --> 00:17:32,978
No matter how good your constitution is, no matter how good your

278
00:17:32,988 --> 00:17:37,098
checks and balances are, over time this is deteriorating.

279
00:17:37,298 --> 00:17:40,018
And the reason for that is because our current systems

280
00:17:40,088 --> 00:17:41,638
are giving wrong incentives.

281
00:17:41,978 --> 00:17:47,033
They're giving the incentives To the politicians to promise all kinds of

282
00:17:47,053 --> 00:17:49,983
goodies so that they're reelected because it's not their money, right?

283
00:17:49,983 --> 00:17:52,843
And they can in depth their state, they can print money.

284
00:17:53,783 --> 00:17:55,553
People think, no, they're not printing money.

285
00:17:55,563 --> 00:17:56,423
Well, here's the thing.

286
00:17:57,023 --> 00:18:02,123
If you as a state are giving state bonds and you say, tell your own

287
00:18:02,123 --> 00:18:05,803
central bank to buy all these bonds, this is like printing money.

288
00:18:06,193 --> 00:18:08,853
That's, that's how they do it today, but it's the same effect.

289
00:18:09,443 --> 00:18:14,010
And, and the other thing is, that the electorate, the people who, the electorate

290
00:18:14,110 --> 00:18:19,090
who are going to vote, they also think, okay, I can vote money in my pocket.

291
00:18:19,090 --> 00:18:21,410
So I vote for the guy who's promising me most.

292
00:18:22,270 --> 00:18:25,250
And this is a bad incentive, but I cannot stop that.

293
00:18:25,260 --> 00:18:29,570
I can tell people, try to convince them that this is not a good thing, but at

294
00:18:29,570 --> 00:18:32,550
the end of the day, I have no chance.

295
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,660
As a libertarian candidate in a public election, I can go to the

296
00:18:36,660 --> 00:18:40,350
people and say, You know that Knut, I made that point before.

297
00:18:40,540 --> 00:18:41,750
Vote for me.

298
00:18:41,910 --> 00:18:43,510
I can, I do nothing for you.

299
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:44,740
Right?

300
00:18:44,790 --> 00:18:48,000
It's not, not, not very attractive.

301
00:18:48,460 --> 00:18:52,930
And, uh, um, on the other hand, it's, uh, I tell people here, you get a

302
00:18:52,970 --> 00:18:58,810
100 euro for, for eight hours hard work, or here you get 100 euro for

303
00:18:58,810 --> 00:19:03,910
just making your cross, uh, on the, on the ballot at the right place.

304
00:19:04,890 --> 00:19:05,610
Who will win?

305
00:19:05,690 --> 00:19:05,990
Right?

306
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:06,410
It's, it's,

307
00:19:06,797 --> 00:19:07,167
well, I

308
00:19:07,177 --> 00:19:07,947
would vote for you, Titus.

309
00:19:08,602 --> 00:19:12,502
Yeah, but maybe 5 percent of the people, right?

310
00:19:13,302 --> 00:19:14,752
That's at least my experience.

311
00:19:15,852 --> 00:19:18,092
Now people say, yeah, but look at Argentina.

312
00:19:18,692 --> 00:19:21,512
Um, I think that's true.

313
00:19:21,762 --> 00:19:24,442
But on the other hand, they have only elected him president.

314
00:19:24,452 --> 00:19:26,242
He has not a majority in the parliament.

315
00:19:26,987 --> 00:19:32,667
And after 100 years of mismanagement, and I think 60 percent of the

316
00:19:32,667 --> 00:19:34,137
people are now kind of poor.

317
00:19:35,062 --> 00:19:38,292
So if you have to wait 100 years until change is happening,

318
00:19:38,652 --> 00:19:40,472
I don't want to do that,

319
00:19:40,994 --> 00:19:45,034
Well, he has managed to turn things around somewhat in a very short time, uh,

320
00:19:45,044 --> 00:19:45,794
by, yeah.

321
00:19:45,794 --> 00:19:46,454
support that.

322
00:19:46,844 --> 00:19:54,094
But my concern is that, that he will not be, he has not enough power to really

323
00:19:54,094 --> 00:19:56,364
make the legislative things happen.

324
00:19:56,874 --> 00:20:01,784
Maybe he's getting them in the next election, and then he's probably,

325
00:20:02,284 --> 00:20:07,374
He will be elected out of power the moment people are a bit better off.

326
00:20:07,474 --> 00:20:09,584
So this is just my concern and my experience.

327
00:20:09,584 --> 00:20:12,604
If I look at Germany after World War II, Ludwig Erhard

328
00:20:12,604 --> 00:20:14,004
made these fantastic reforms.

329
00:20:14,379 --> 00:20:18,599
We had even people in Sweden in the 1990s making reforms, New Zealand,

330
00:20:18,979 --> 00:20:24,409
that all took 10, 20 years and then the good, the good guys were in power again.

331
00:20:24,864 --> 00:20:28,794
Erhard is a forgotten hero of European history.

332
00:20:29,344 --> 00:20:33,054
Like, he's basically the reason that Germany is the biggest economy in Europe.

333
00:20:33,074 --> 00:20:37,884
Like, that's, uh, that's all his, he's doing, really, right?

334
00:20:38,199 --> 00:20:38,919
Yeah, absolutely.

335
00:20:38,919 --> 00:20:41,409
And he was influenced by Ludwig von Mises, right?

336
00:20:41,439 --> 00:20:46,039
And he, and Ludwig von Mises wrote him, uh, it's great what you're

337
00:20:46,039 --> 00:20:51,709
doing, but I have some concerns with this term of, um, uh, social market

338
00:20:51,709 --> 00:20:56,299
economy, because if that means that the moment something happens that.

339
00:20:56,864 --> 00:21:01,534
The government does not like, as a market result, they have the right to interfere,

340
00:21:01,534 --> 00:21:06,654
then they will interfere in everything after a while, right, and in a way that

341
00:21:06,664 --> 00:21:09,814
happened, but Ludwig Erhard is a hero.

342
00:21:09,814 --> 00:21:12,424
I fully signed that, subscribe to that.

343
00:21:12,614 --> 00:21:18,484
He has really against even the military leadership, which was established.

344
00:21:18,894 --> 00:21:25,074
Back then in 1948, of the winning powers of World War II, he has just,

345
00:21:25,154 --> 00:21:29,504
um, cut all price controls overnight without their permission, right?

346
00:21:30,344 --> 00:21:35,554
And basically the whole country was, uh, saying that this is foolish

347
00:21:35,584 --> 00:21:38,090
and he's an idiot and all that.

348
00:21:38,180 --> 00:21:41,500
So against all odds he did this and it was extremely successful.

349
00:21:42,175 --> 00:21:43,065
Unsung hero.

350
00:21:43,565 --> 00:21:45,475
Look him up, people, and brush your teeth.

351
00:21:45,755 --> 00:21:51,295
Um, yeah, you said something about, you know, uh, the money printing by government

352
00:21:51,315 --> 00:21:56,185
selling government bonds to central banks, which is, I think, is such a vile

353
00:21:56,195 --> 00:21:58,805
scheme, because what is a government bond?

354
00:21:59,385 --> 00:22:02,915
It's basically a promise from the government to steal even more from

355
00:22:02,915 --> 00:22:04,765
your kids than they stole from you.

356
00:22:05,465 --> 00:22:09,785
And with money that is worthless, so, so

357
00:22:09,805 --> 00:22:10,025
good

358
00:22:10,030 --> 00:22:12,570
this is, this is also Knut, this is also the reason why

359
00:22:12,570 --> 00:22:14,130
they have so much credit, right?

360
00:22:14,130 --> 00:22:19,320
Because they can extract the whole population by nearly everything.

361
00:22:19,330 --> 00:22:24,280
So they have a, have a call option on the complete wealth of their citizens,

362
00:22:25,020 --> 00:22:29,440
which is ridiculous in a way, but this is the reason why states have credit

363
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,420
even if they're extremely high in depth.

364
00:22:31,949 --> 00:22:36,499
and I, I think like Bitcoin to me is, I mean, people call it

365
00:22:36,669 --> 00:22:40,389
speculation or whatever, but to me it's, it's, it's a clear signal,

366
00:22:40,399 --> 00:22:46,159
like it's, it's showing us how much we've been, uh, taken advantage of.

367
00:22:47,064 --> 00:22:50,334
Because when you have this constant inflation here and you're hindering

368
00:22:50,334 --> 00:22:53,454
the free market process from happening, you're hindering all of these

369
00:22:53,544 --> 00:22:57,474
exponential growths that could have been happening all over the world.

370
00:22:57,974 --> 00:23:01,724
And your purchasing power is diminish, diminishing as a result of it.

371
00:23:02,234 --> 00:23:05,444
Bitcoin is like a, a reflection of this is the world you could have

372
00:23:05,444 --> 00:23:07,994
been living in and it's already here.

373
00:23:07,994 --> 00:23:09,404
It's been here for quite some time

374
00:23:09,404 --> 00:23:09,644
now.

375
00:23:09,794 --> 00:23:12,214
And this is, This is fantastic, right?

376
00:23:12,214 --> 00:23:17,954
I mean, I think Bitcoin has made more for our libertarian cause than any

377
00:23:17,974 --> 00:23:21,104
other development in the last 20 years.

378
00:23:21,494 --> 00:23:26,244
It is just because so many, I see this with our free private cities and

379
00:23:26,244 --> 00:23:31,789
the Liberty for Lifetime conference that you mentioned, Um, about half

380
00:23:31,829 --> 00:23:35,139
of the newcomers coming somewhere from the libertarian side, the

381
00:23:35,139 --> 00:23:36,519
other half from the bitcoiner side.

382
00:23:36,569 --> 00:23:40,149
So they have really, they have what you said correctly, they have

383
00:23:40,169 --> 00:23:47,439
understood that a sound monetary system is, is so much worth.

384
00:23:47,869 --> 00:23:50,529
It's not just, okay, money and inflation.

385
00:23:50,539 --> 00:23:55,919
It's all the incentives in which areas of the industry you invest in, in which

386
00:23:55,919 --> 00:23:59,939
not, and this makes you all, gives you better, higher quality of living.

387
00:24:00,329 --> 00:24:03,649
So it's still a very small portion of the people who have understood that,

388
00:24:03,649 --> 00:24:10,514
but Bitcoin and um, books like Bitcoin Standard, uh, have, have supported that.

389
00:24:10,554 --> 00:24:10,724
Right?

390
00:24:10,724 --> 00:24:15,014
So then more people understand those Austrian findings.

391
00:24:15,014 --> 00:24:19,034
We knew this, our people knew this 100 years ago, right?

392
00:24:19,314 --> 00:24:24,674
But it's a, it's a tiny fraction, but now the young people starting to, to see that.

393
00:24:24,694 --> 00:24:28,034
And I think we were still only at the beginning, which,

394
00:24:28,054 --> 00:24:29,364
which also gives me some hope.

395
00:24:29,514 --> 00:24:35,014
And, and, um, Um, uh, I think, uh, Bitcoin, uh, well, some people think

396
00:24:35,014 --> 00:24:36,654
that Bitcoin will save the world.

397
00:24:36,684 --> 00:24:40,434
I think Bitcoin is a great thing, but it cannot solve all problems of the world.

398
00:24:40,964 --> 00:24:46,354
So we have to, to also come up with, uh, products, uh, of living together,

399
00:24:46,354 --> 00:24:52,364
which are new, which certainly will then make use of Bitcoin and maybe even

400
00:24:52,374 --> 00:24:54,274
blockchain technologies in some areas.

401
00:24:55,039 --> 00:24:58,499
LAMP transactions, where it might make sense, you will find that out.

402
00:24:58,949 --> 00:24:59,349
But

403
00:24:59,384 --> 00:25:00,884
we have a difference of opinion.

404
00:25:00,889 --> 00:25:01,274
I think

405
00:25:01,609 --> 00:25:06,419
I'm not sure, Knut, I don't, I'm not sure if it works, if it's necessary, right?

406
00:25:06,609 --> 00:25:10,729
Most, most things that I have seen now, where people said that's

407
00:25:10,749 --> 00:25:15,689
blockchain, I said, no, it's redundancy that is not needed.

408
00:25:15,949 --> 00:25:20,689
But I'm, I'm not an expert enough to make a final call, like, You can use

409
00:25:20,689 --> 00:25:22,519
the blockchain only for Bitcoin or not.

410
00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:24,829
I wouldn't dare to make that call.

411
00:25:24,889 --> 00:25:28,529
I don't know enough about that, but I would leave it to the market.

412
00:25:28,879 --> 00:25:30,559
Maybe you know a much better expert on that.

413
00:25:31,533 --> 00:25:35,913
I would not from a technical perspective, I wouldn't like to defend it from a

414
00:25:35,913 --> 00:25:40,593
technical perspective, but more from a philosophical one, because all it

415
00:25:40,593 --> 00:25:47,443
is all solving the, the Byzantine generals problem was, was Discovering

416
00:25:47,713 --> 00:25:52,653
resistance to replicability, like a number that cannot be copied.

417
00:25:53,143 --> 00:26:01,963
By definition, a copy of a technology that makes copying impossible is, uh, uh, this

418
00:26:02,013 --> 00:26:07,103
misguided at best, and probably just a scam trying to leech off the value of the

419
00:26:07,103 --> 00:26:09,453
success of the initial, uh, discovery.

420
00:26:10,033 --> 00:26:15,053
So to me, it's more of a dis the discovery of absolute digital scarcity is really.

421
00:26:15,753 --> 00:26:18,303
The discovery of resistance to replicability.

422
00:26:19,043 --> 00:26:22,073
And for that you mean you need more than just cryptography?

423
00:26:22,073 --> 00:26:27,643
You need, you need people to, uh, align on which one of these systems this is.

424
00:26:27,793 --> 00:26:29,863
And this is where the network effect comes in.

425
00:26:30,403 --> 00:26:33,523
And there's a first mover advantage that can't be ignored.

426
00:26:33,528 --> 00:26:38,103
So, so it's sort of like you can only discover America once you

427
00:26:38,138 --> 00:26:40,893
can you can sail to the other side and call it something else.

428
00:26:41,873 --> 00:26:44,503
If people already decided what it's called, that's

429
00:26:44,513 --> 00:26:45,423
the name it's going to have.

430
00:26:45,423 --> 00:26:47,703
And it's the same thing for, for Bitcoin in my mind.

431
00:26:48,460 --> 00:26:51,200
But for the blockchain as such, it's always a trade off, right?

432
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,900
When you say, I want every transaction to be in the blockchain,

433
00:26:53,910 --> 00:26:55,230
no matter how small it is.

434
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:56,320
Then.

435
00:26:57,225 --> 00:27:04,805
You are creating maybe unnecessary burdens for just the fungibility of assets.

436
00:27:05,685 --> 00:27:10,235
And insofar as we found out where we use that, and I can imagine

437
00:27:10,235 --> 00:27:15,225
that larger transactions like land transactions, houses, that may make

438
00:27:15,235 --> 00:27:20,320
sense because you want to Show in the future that 300 years ago, right?

439
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,890
It's clearly, this is the property line, right?

440
00:27:23,930 --> 00:27:28,080
But not if I'm buying, uh, soft drinks, uh, in a supermarket,

441
00:27:28,518 --> 00:27:30,018
But there are scaling solutions.

442
00:27:30,078 --> 00:27:31,818
Like there are, there is the Lightning Network.

443
00:27:31,828 --> 00:27:35,728
It has its problems, but it's still way better than fractional reserve

444
00:27:35,738 --> 00:27:36,138
banking.

445
00:27:36,148 --> 00:27:36,898
That's the way I see

446
00:27:36,923 --> 00:27:37,673
you with that.

447
00:27:37,743 --> 00:27:41,663
And I can imagine that the lightning system or a lightning node for

448
00:27:41,663 --> 00:27:45,823
each free private city would be a solution because it still has to do

449
00:27:45,823 --> 00:27:47,733
with trust and counterparty, right?

450
00:27:47,733 --> 00:27:47,883
Okay.

451
00:27:48,023 --> 00:27:50,943
But it's a better compromise as what we have today.

452
00:27:50,943 --> 00:27:52,583
So I'm fully on your side in this

453
00:27:52,883 --> 00:27:53,433
superior.

454
00:27:53,753 --> 00:27:54,003
Yeah.

455
00:27:54,253 --> 00:27:58,763
And that's like, if there's one thing about the Free Cities conference that

456
00:27:58,763 --> 00:28:04,183
I dislike, or like, I don't like as much, is when some of these projects

457
00:28:04,183 --> 00:28:07,973
have their own decentralised autonomous organisation, or there's a shitcoin

458
00:28:08,293 --> 00:28:13,498
attached to it, Because to me, that's an instant red flag, like this might be,

459
00:28:13,688 --> 00:28:19,268
because I feel so sorry for the people who are, who might be falling for a scam.

460
00:28:19,518 --> 00:28:23,938
I'm not saying that all it is a scam or that that's even the intent intention,

461
00:28:24,438 --> 00:28:26,278
but there's a, there's a risk there.

462
00:28:26,358 --> 00:28:31,473
And like, it's, it's sort of like, You, you may, I, I am a consensual at heart.

463
00:28:31,578 --> 00:28:35,523
I, I don't want to interfere with what other peoples do at, at all.

464
00:28:35,853 --> 00:28:41,073
But I also like to call Call a spade a spade, and if I see a scam, I point it out

465
00:28:41,281 --> 00:28:41,341
regard.

466
00:28:41,341 --> 00:28:44,281
And you know, this is why we're having those conferences, so that

467
00:28:44,281 --> 00:28:46,101
we can argue about those things.

468
00:28:46,101 --> 00:28:51,391
And I have, I'm also always feeling a bit uncomfortable with somebody saying,

469
00:28:51,481 --> 00:28:52,991
yeah, we will have our own token.

470
00:28:53,321 --> 00:28:57,591
But the reality is there's no need for that, right?

471
00:28:58,041 --> 00:29:00,111
re reinventing the fiat wheel

472
00:29:00,501 --> 00:29:04,051
Yeah, I'm using the existing fiat currency in that region, or you use

473
00:29:04,281 --> 00:29:07,441
Bitcoin, uh, or with a lightning system.

474
00:29:07,441 --> 00:29:12,931
Because if you come up with a new token, why should people take your token other

475
00:29:12,931 --> 00:29:14,891
than you force them to do it, right?

476
00:29:15,691 --> 00:29:18,241
And we say, Hey, in our free private cities, there should

477
00:29:18,251 --> 00:29:19,681
be a free banking system.

478
00:29:20,011 --> 00:29:25,371
I mean, you choose whatever you want and it includes a fractional reserve banking.

479
00:29:25,411 --> 00:29:28,061
If you, well, here's what's happening, right?

480
00:29:29,001 --> 00:29:31,551
If you go to a fractional reserve bank, you get a higher interest

481
00:29:31,551 --> 00:29:35,151
rate, but it comes a higher risk with that, that you lose all your money.

482
00:29:35,611 --> 00:29:38,071
So, why shouldn't people be allowed to choose that?

483
00:29:38,081 --> 00:29:41,911
I never understood why libertarians say we are voluntarists and we

484
00:29:41,911 --> 00:29:45,611
are free markets, but we want to forbid fractional reserve banking.

485
00:29:46,071 --> 00:29:48,751
Hey, this is just another financial product.

486
00:29:48,751 --> 00:29:53,131
It might be a shitty one, as some tokens are, but let people

487
00:29:53,161 --> 00:29:54,951
make their own experience, right?

488
00:29:55,351 --> 00:29:59,781
And, and that is something which will probably happen over time, that some kind

489
00:29:59,781 --> 00:30:04,631
of fractional reserve will come because then you can leverage more and then

490
00:30:04,631 --> 00:30:08,441
you can promise people higher interest rate and people will fall for that.

491
00:30:08,711 --> 00:30:12,271
And I mean, that's every, that's the world, right?

492
00:30:12,531 --> 00:30:15,751
If you want higher interest, higher dividends, you have to take higher risks.

493
00:30:16,121 --> 00:30:17,291
That's how the world works.

494
00:30:17,551 --> 00:30:24,241
And the thing is that if, if, if you then fail, we should not bail you out.

495
00:30:25,921 --> 00:30:29,471
And the state is not coming to your support, and the free city

496
00:30:29,501 --> 00:30:31,091
is not coming to bail you out.

497
00:30:31,391 --> 00:30:34,971
This is your experience, and that is what you made, and this will make you

498
00:30:35,411 --> 00:30:39,731
a better, more intelligent person, a more prudent person in the future.

499
00:30:40,321 --> 00:30:46,061
And if everybody had acted like that since the first Uh, bank runs were

500
00:30:46,061 --> 00:30:51,461
happening in the 1870s, there would have been no global financial crisis

501
00:30:51,461 --> 00:30:56,161
in 2008 because until then, everybody would know about fractional reserve

502
00:30:56,191 --> 00:31:00,921
and full reserve banking, and only some people would then really trust their

503
00:31:00,921 --> 00:31:03,021
big money to fractional reserve banks.

504
00:31:03,421 --> 00:31:07,026
So, that is my, uh, I have a view that people must make their own

505
00:31:07,026 --> 00:31:10,386
experience and Knut, I think the same will happen with the shitcoins

506
00:31:11,446 --> 00:31:14,186
and NFTs and all kinds of tokens.

507
00:31:14,406 --> 00:31:18,126
And I must say to the defense of those people on our conferences,

508
00:31:18,686 --> 00:31:22,766
most of them, if not all, think they're doing a good thing, right?

509
00:31:22,886 --> 00:31:26,956
They're attaching all kinds of products to this token and whatever.

510
00:31:27,416 --> 00:31:31,986
And I'm also, I do not want to tell them all shit.

511
00:31:32,046 --> 00:31:33,166
Hey, let them find out.

512
00:31:33,166 --> 00:31:34,686
And maybe we are wrong.

513
00:31:34,776 --> 00:31:40,866
And there are some tokens that have some specific advantages, right?

514
00:31:40,906 --> 00:31:44,326
So I think let the people find out.

515
00:31:44,376 --> 00:31:45,881
It's good that you are watching.

516
00:31:46,381 --> 00:31:51,391
Raising your voice at the conference saying, I warn you guys, and I'm doing

517
00:31:51,391 --> 00:31:55,591
the same in conversation, say, look, if you're introducing a new token that

518
00:31:56,141 --> 00:32:01,881
wasn't seen before, nobody's going to use it unless you force people or whatever,

519
00:32:01,911 --> 00:32:04,248
make, give them benefits for that.

520
00:32:04,826 --> 00:32:08,296
And that should be a warning light in itself, should be a red flag.

521
00:32:08,771 --> 00:32:12,461
to me it's, it's like, uh, yeah, I, I believe you that

522
00:32:12,651 --> 00:32:14,091
most people aren't scammers.

523
00:32:14,121 --> 00:32:16,321
They, they are, have good intentions.

524
00:32:16,441 --> 00:32:20,601
Uh, it's just that, like, I, I'm against hate crime laws as well.

525
00:32:20,761 --> 00:32:26,911
It doesn't matter to the victim if it was what the intent of the criminal was.

526
00:32:27,261 --> 00:32:31,501
You know, like, if, if you're clumsy and kill someone, or if you

527
00:32:31,501 --> 00:32:35,681
deliberately kill someone, the outcome is just the same to the victim.

528
00:32:36,001 --> 00:32:37,351
And it's sort of the same here.

529
00:32:37,731 --> 00:32:41,691
By the way, the, the, the whole thing, I'm totally with you that I want

530
00:32:41,841 --> 00:32:43,881
people to be able to have the choice.

531
00:32:43,881 --> 00:32:48,521
That's why I prefer Mele to, uh, uh, boule in this case.

532
00:32:48,521 --> 00:32:52,451
I don't like, uh, uh, legal tender laws.

533
00:32:52,919 --> 00:32:56,639
Uh, I, I think that he is wrong there because I think people should be able

534
00:32:56,669 --> 00:32:59,759
to choose for themselves and take responsibility for their own mistakes.

535
00:32:59,759 --> 00:33:02,099
That's, that needs to be the basis of everything.

536
00:33:02,484 --> 00:33:07,814
And, uh, and, uh, so I'm a bit of a, I have to admit, I, I mean, I, uh, I

537
00:33:07,824 --> 00:33:11,744
don't like politicians in general or I don't like politics and, uh, I'm

538
00:33:12,124 --> 00:33:15,664
usually not impressed by them, but I'm a bit of a melee fanboy because

539
00:33:15,694 --> 00:33:21,084
he's, uh, you know, quoting, quoting Rothbard and has a superhero costume

540
00:33:21,274 --> 00:33:22,934
and campaigns with a chainsaw.

541
00:33:22,934 --> 00:33:25,524
So I, I just love him and his haircut as well.

542
00:33:25,685 --> 00:33:29,525
maybe he has really initiated something which we later will

543
00:33:29,685 --> 00:33:31,385
know as the libertarian century.

544
00:33:31,730 --> 00:33:32,060
Right?

545
00:33:32,260 --> 00:33:38,140
Because at the moment, would think that, but two years ago, or five

546
00:33:38,140 --> 00:33:41,680
years ago, nobody would think that a libertarian president was ever

547
00:33:41,710 --> 00:33:44,100
elected in a Western country, right?

548
00:33:44,470 --> 00:33:50,550
And so far, and he was holding this speech in, in Davos, right?

549
00:33:50,590 --> 00:33:56,360
Where he would kick ass and, um, and that was one of the most

550
00:33:56,450 --> 00:33:58,130
seen speeches in Davos ever.

551
00:33:58,620 --> 00:34:04,030
And I heard that people really applauded him heavily in the audience, so I

552
00:34:04,030 --> 00:34:08,805
think, on the surface, it seems that states are getting bigger and bigger and

553
00:34:08,945 --> 00:34:13,415
more powerful and powerful, and these unaccountable international organizations

554
00:34:13,445 --> 00:34:17,785
like the WHO, they're grabbing more and more power, which is really dangerous.

555
00:34:18,555 --> 00:34:20,565
But that is only the surface.

556
00:34:20,565 --> 00:34:25,685
I think below the surface, what you can see is they are not even capable

557
00:34:25,695 --> 00:34:31,025
of handling a pandemic and things like that, other than with brute

558
00:34:31,128 --> 00:34:33,928
totalitarian force or authoritarian force.

559
00:34:34,423 --> 00:34:38,173
And they're not capable of handling these critiques.

560
00:34:38,203 --> 00:34:42,713
They're not capable of handling, of making a balancing decision.

561
00:34:43,163 --> 00:34:50,124
So that shows me also a kind of, uh, they have reached a peak in a certain way.

562
00:34:50,174 --> 00:34:54,654
And in most areas, you can see that they're not even capable

563
00:34:54,654 --> 00:34:57,444
of doing their own things right.

564
00:34:57,454 --> 00:35:02,417
For example, if you think that the European Union is coming up with

565
00:35:02,417 --> 00:35:08,692
the New law and a new scheme or new mechanism for anything because they have

566
00:35:08,692 --> 00:35:11,372
thousands of people working for them.

567
00:35:12,332 --> 00:35:13,172
No, they're not.

568
00:35:13,252 --> 00:35:18,312
They're hiring PricewaterhouseCoopers, McKinsey and other private consultancy

569
00:35:18,322 --> 00:35:20,382
firms to tell them what to do.

570
00:35:21,802 --> 00:35:23,652
Or how to implement their ideas.

571
00:35:24,222 --> 00:35:30,222
So in the, in the, in the, in the form of politics, the original form

572
00:35:30,362 --> 00:35:34,752
of state power, not even there, they can do things without the

573
00:35:34,752 --> 00:35:38,202
private sector or take war, right?

574
00:35:38,202 --> 00:35:42,512
You say, okay, war is definitely something where this is state business.

575
00:35:44,142 --> 00:35:49,222
But even in Russia, right, a private mercenary company had to

576
00:35:49,222 --> 00:35:54,232
come to the rescue of the Russian army to, to conquer Bahmut, right?

577
00:35:54,652 --> 00:35:56,802
I mean, and same in the U.

578
00:35:56,802 --> 00:35:57,252
S.

579
00:35:57,432 --> 00:36:00,792
And then, years ago.

580
00:36:01,252 --> 00:36:04,892
Uh, everybody was telling you, uh, going to the moon in

581
00:36:04,892 --> 00:36:06,582
space, only states can do that.

582
00:36:06,832 --> 00:36:11,522
And what we see now, 90 percent of market share for commercial flight into the

583
00:36:11,522 --> 00:36:13,642
orbit is by private companies, SpaceX.

584
00:36:14,102 --> 00:36:19,732
So you can see that in the areas where, when we were young, or our

585
00:36:19,762 --> 00:36:25,992
parents said, these are the eminent state domains, right, war, politics.

586
00:36:26,577 --> 00:36:27,457
Space travel.

587
00:36:27,777 --> 00:36:31,267
All of them can be done and must be done by private companies.

588
00:36:31,277 --> 00:36:33,507
So that shows you a weakness of the states.

589
00:36:33,857 --> 00:36:40,227
And that is a good sign because it shows you that privately organized way

590
00:36:40,227 --> 00:36:42,127
of living together is working better.

591
00:36:42,717 --> 00:36:48,967
Um, it's just, uh, without all these, I mean, there's certainly fierce competition

592
00:36:49,007 --> 00:36:53,707
and there will be also some kinds of, of irregularities, but in principle,

593
00:36:53,707 --> 00:36:57,437
everybody knows, okay, if somebody is providing a good service, people will

594
00:36:57,467 --> 00:36:59,407
come voluntarily and pay voluntarily.

595
00:37:00,017 --> 00:37:03,127
If they're not providing good service, they go to another provider.

596
00:37:03,707 --> 00:37:07,477
And that is my idea that we have everything at once.

597
00:37:07,477 --> 00:37:10,377
We have legacy states, we have these dubious.

598
00:37:11,346 --> 00:37:13,246
conglomerates like European Union.

599
00:37:13,246 --> 00:37:18,166
We have, uh, uh, independent cities or semi independent

600
00:37:18,176 --> 00:37:20,806
cities and everything in between.

601
00:37:21,156 --> 00:37:24,316
And then people can choose where they want to go.

602
00:37:24,316 --> 00:37:28,856
And that alone will force the legacy states to become more service

603
00:37:28,856 --> 00:37:32,166
provider because otherwise their best people will just go away.

604
00:37:32,851 --> 00:37:36,761
So this is at least my hope that this is happening in this century and which

605
00:37:36,761 --> 00:37:41,651
will automatically lead, automatically lead to a more libertarian century

606
00:37:41,651 --> 00:37:46,534
because you have the freedom to reject, to be left alone, yeah, then

607
00:37:46,894 --> 00:37:48,944
they cannot force you to do things.

608
00:37:49,084 --> 00:37:54,864
And if they do, okay, you force me, then I refuse to work or only so

609
00:37:54,874 --> 00:37:56,724
little that I can make a living.

610
00:37:57,304 --> 00:38:00,754
And that will mean eventually all the good people will go away.

611
00:38:01,149 --> 00:38:05,339
And I see this today, people are flooding into Dubai, right.

612
00:38:05,449 --> 00:38:08,379
There's a reason for that, because they leave you alone, they leave

613
00:38:08,379 --> 00:38:13,899
you more alone than the rest of the world, even if it's a monarchy.

614
00:38:14,399 --> 00:38:17,719
and so we will, we will continue to see this, and this will put

615
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:19,219
pressure on the legacy state.

616
00:38:19,219 --> 00:38:26,145
They They are not really confessing that now, but every special economic zone

617
00:38:26,145 --> 00:38:30,309
in the world is already a confession of a state and obviously their rules

618
00:38:30,309 --> 00:38:33,699
are not the best for everyone, because otherwise there wouldn't be a reason

619
00:38:33,699 --> 00:38:35,349
to create a special economic zone.

620
00:38:35,859 --> 00:38:36,199
Right?

621
00:38:36,319 --> 00:38:40,749
So, and we are capitalizing a bit on that development, which is already there.

622
00:38:41,229 --> 00:38:45,459
And then you have people like Millet who are really coming in front of the

623
00:38:45,479 --> 00:38:48,449
Davos Trout and say the state is not a solution, the state is a problem.

624
00:38:48,449 --> 00:38:48,649
Right?

625
00:38:48,649 --> 00:38:52,054
So, um, That's great, because now many, many people have, for the very first

626
00:38:52,064 --> 00:38:56,904
time in their life, have heard the term libertarianism or anarcho capitalism.

627
00:38:57,894 --> 00:38:59,444
And they look it up, right?

628
00:38:59,554 --> 00:39:05,644
And when I was young, I didn't find out about Ludwig von Mises for a long

629
00:39:05,644 --> 00:39:09,274
time, because the gatekeepers did not tell you that he was existing.

630
00:39:09,274 --> 00:39:13,954
He was a non person in Germany, didn't exist, right?

631
00:39:14,294 --> 00:39:16,094
So this is different today.

632
00:39:16,124 --> 00:39:21,549
People can get information more quickly, and we can We can, uh, uh, associate

633
00:39:21,579 --> 00:39:29,331
more easily through the internet and, um, and so far I do have hope that we are at

634
00:39:29,331 --> 00:39:31,281
the beginning of a libertarian century.

635
00:39:31,770 --> 00:39:32,380
Absolutely.

636
00:39:32,420 --> 00:39:37,070
And, uh, yeah, I, I just like to inject another dose of hopium into that if

637
00:39:37,070 --> 00:39:44,130
I may, because I, I think it's so, so easy, like the, the way to really live

638
00:39:44,130 --> 00:39:50,100
in a way that ensures that you are free, it is to make attacking you costly.

639
00:39:50,730 --> 00:39:56,080
That's why, like states with a good standing army, where where Luke lives

640
00:39:56,110 --> 00:40:01,700
now, like Finland, uh, They stood their ground against Russia in many, many

641
00:40:01,700 --> 00:40:06,310
wars because they had good snipers and people who could take the cold

642
00:40:06,330 --> 00:40:12,260
and defend their borders, but it's the same for, um, this is not only like

643
00:40:12,370 --> 00:40:18,330
geographical stuff, uh, with Bitcoin, you have the perfect costliness to attack

644
00:40:18,730 --> 00:40:22,280
for an attacker because the attacker can say, give me all your bitcoins.

645
00:40:22,890 --> 00:40:26,080
And you can give a part of it up, a minuscule part of it,

646
00:40:26,090 --> 00:40:27,260
and say that's all I have.

647
00:40:27,270 --> 00:40:30,120
But there's no way for the attacker to know how much you really have.

648
00:40:30,260 --> 00:40:33,750
And that's true for every man, woman, and child on earth today.

649
00:40:34,220 --> 00:40:36,700
And everything in between, to be politically correct there.

650
00:40:37,030 --> 00:40:41,760
Uh, like, there's, there's, there's no way For an attacker to ever know how

651
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:48,040
many bitcoins the other person has, which means that it is more profitable

652
00:40:48,470 --> 00:40:53,290
to give something up in order to get something back from that person

653
00:40:53,630 --> 00:40:55,400
than it is to do a physical attack.

654
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,580
So the shelling point of violence has been moved.

655
00:40:59,140 --> 00:41:05,695
And also, every jurisdiction that adopts this, Well, every single act of

656
00:41:05,705 --> 00:41:11,615
goodness in that, like, from Bitcoiner to Bitcoiner benefits the entire network.

657
00:41:11,745 --> 00:41:17,205
Because that, ultimately that leads to purchasing power go up.

658
00:41:17,814 --> 00:41:20,394
so that's, uh, that's all there is to it.

659
00:41:20,704 --> 00:41:24,064
I, I had another thought here, but it escaped me at the moment.

660
00:41:24,164 --> 00:41:24,674
Um,

661
00:41:25,129 --> 00:41:28,269
Maybe it will come back, but I think you're completely right with the Bitcoin.

662
00:41:28,609 --> 00:41:34,349
It makes really hard to expropriate people and, uh, it's gold can be found, right?

663
00:41:34,629 --> 00:41:41,309
And I was thinking they, They probably come up with a, uh, banning Bitcoin in,

664
00:41:41,329 --> 00:41:44,999
in, in the West, but in large areas, and I mean, this still can happen,

665
00:41:44,999 --> 00:41:51,219
but it's now more, more countries are, uh, making Bitcoin regulation.

666
00:41:51,219 --> 00:41:53,259
That means they're making it really legal.

667
00:41:53,579 --> 00:41:57,349
We have these Bitcoin ETFs, uh, at Wall Street.

668
00:41:57,689 --> 00:42:01,639
You have countries like El Salvador, and I think there's a second country now that

669
00:42:01,679 --> 00:42:06,929
have adopted Bitcoin as a legal tender, or at least as a method of payment.

670
00:42:07,569 --> 00:42:12,729
And it's getting more and more difficult to make a general ban on Bitcoin, but you

671
00:42:12,729 --> 00:42:18,049
can, you can still try it and say you're not allowed to pay in Bitcoin and nobody's

672
00:42:18,099 --> 00:42:21,188
allowed to pay you fiat against Bitcoin.

673
00:42:21,189 --> 00:42:24,939
It will not disappear then, but it will have, will be weakened.

674
00:42:25,529 --> 00:42:27,989
Um, but I think I, I'm also positive.

675
00:42:27,989 --> 00:42:30,779
I think you are right that that is a fantastic improvement for the

676
00:42:30,779 --> 00:42:34,869
individual that can hide their wealth, take their wealth with them easily.

677
00:42:35,344 --> 00:42:40,364
Even if they're expelled from the country, and, uh, it is, uh, has

678
00:42:40,364 --> 00:42:46,284
reached a certain size so that we think, I have some trust that Bitcoin

679
00:42:46,994 --> 00:42:50,014
will not go away, go away ever.

680
00:42:50,044 --> 00:42:54,274
So it's there now, people have seen how it works, so it can work.

681
00:42:54,854 --> 00:43:00,254
It's a little bit, the reason why I wrote my book is just that the idea is there.

682
00:43:01,394 --> 00:43:03,514
The idea will not go away again.

683
00:43:03,514 --> 00:43:07,724
And I tell people from, especially from libertarian, Austrian economic side, say,

684
00:43:07,864 --> 00:43:13,314
Hey, if you like free markets so much, then just transfer this idea to our market

685
00:43:13,314 --> 00:43:18,694
of living together and let people offer different products of, of living together.

686
00:43:18,694 --> 00:43:21,934
And everybody is choosing which he likes best.

687
00:43:22,339 --> 00:43:22,589
Right?

688
00:43:22,589 --> 00:43:25,459
That is my supermarket of living together idea.

689
00:43:25,829 --> 00:43:26,439
That's all.

690
00:43:26,439 --> 00:43:29,059
And this is a simple thought, right?

691
00:43:29,179 --> 00:43:33,119
And this is in the heads now and that this can be done privately.

692
00:43:33,439 --> 00:43:36,589
But if this is really what you want, protection of life, liberty,

693
00:43:36,589 --> 00:43:39,519
and property, you don't need a king, you don't need a president.

694
00:43:39,879 --> 00:43:41,489
A private company can do that.

695
00:43:41,749 --> 00:43:42,089
Right?

696
00:43:42,269 --> 00:43:43,299
Another simple thought.

697
00:43:43,809 --> 00:43:50,019
And Bitcoin is proven, the white paper was basically bringing thought into

698
00:43:50,489 --> 00:43:56,569
the world, and now it has been done for quite a while, and that is showing

699
00:43:56,599 --> 00:44:01,654
people it works, and I don't know what is your feeling, but my opinion.

700
00:44:02,684 --> 00:44:08,874
My impression is that people who once have discovered the Austrian school of

701
00:44:08,874 --> 00:44:13,944
economics, have discovered how Bitcoin works, they are not getting back

702
00:44:14,347 --> 00:44:16,647
no, there's no un orange pilling.

703
00:44:16,852 --> 00:44:17,382
A person.

704
00:45:11,384 --> 00:45:17,059
Okay, let's get to the meat of the Free Cities, like, um Tell us

705
00:45:17,059 --> 00:45:19,079
more about the actual free cities.

706
00:45:19,139 --> 00:45:22,039
Like, uh, what, what are the biggest projects?

707
00:45:23,019 --> 00:45:24,839
What's the latest update from them?

708
00:45:25,129 --> 00:45:26,219
What can people do?

709
00:45:26,269 --> 00:45:28,399
Should they move to a free, private city and why?

710
00:45:28,419 --> 00:45:28,939
And so on.

711
00:45:28,999 --> 00:45:29,749
Give us the pitch.

712
00:45:29,934 --> 00:45:30,174
Yeah.

713
00:45:30,234 --> 00:45:30,574
Okay.

714
00:45:31,044 --> 00:45:36,334
First and foremost, um, the, the idea is that in a free private CD, uh, a

715
00:45:36,334 --> 00:45:40,844
private, uh, service provider guarantees you protection of life, liberty,

716
00:45:40,844 --> 00:45:42,544
and property based on a contract.

717
00:45:42,774 --> 00:45:45,074
And in this contract, it said that it costs you.

718
00:45:45,209 --> 00:45:52,399
1, 500 or 2, 000 per year, and you have rights, like the right we left alone,

719
00:45:52,529 --> 00:45:57,729
and other obligations like to, to follow the rules that are in the contract or

720
00:45:57,759 --> 00:46:02,619
in the annex or that we use as a default system, a common law system or whatever.

721
00:46:03,429 --> 00:46:07,069
So, and with your signature, you accept those rules, but on the

722
00:46:07,069 --> 00:46:10,999
other hand, that means that I cannot change the contract later.

723
00:46:11,049 --> 00:46:14,749
Neither I as an operator, nor the resident can, nor a majority can.

724
00:46:14,979 --> 00:46:18,179
So if you both sign the contract, you are protected.

725
00:46:18,619 --> 00:46:22,619
And there will be external arbitration or courts that will, in case of

726
00:46:22,619 --> 00:46:25,459
conflict of interest, make a decision.

727
00:46:25,459 --> 00:46:28,749
So it's not my courts or arbitration that will make this decision.

728
00:46:28,749 --> 00:46:30,969
This is an additional level of protection.

729
00:46:31,479 --> 00:46:34,099
So this is just, in a nutshell, what it's all about.

730
00:46:34,169 --> 00:46:35,999
So how do we do this?

731
00:46:36,189 --> 00:46:42,169
Because If all state laws apply, which are constantly changed, that isn't worth much.

732
00:46:42,289 --> 00:46:46,629
So we have to create an autonomy that allows us to create our own legal system.

733
00:46:47,119 --> 00:46:51,569
And so far, this has been achieved only in a handful of places.

734
00:46:51,789 --> 00:46:57,449
You have historical places like Hong Kong and Macau, which basically were the

735
00:46:57,449 --> 00:47:02,019
origin of the term special administrative region, a one country, two systems.

736
00:47:02,264 --> 00:47:03,304
for historical reasons.

737
00:47:03,864 --> 00:47:08,804
After they came back to China in the in the 1997 and 1999, there

738
00:47:08,804 --> 00:47:11,934
was a decision they can keep their system for another 50 years.

739
00:47:13,014 --> 00:47:13,954
So this was the first.

740
00:47:13,954 --> 00:47:21,034
And you have areas where they found out by competition that it may be a good idea

741
00:47:21,554 --> 00:47:28,244
to have own independent Courts based on an own legislative system on jurisdiction.

742
00:47:28,244 --> 00:47:30,704
And it was first happening in Dubai, Mr.

743
00:47:30,704 --> 00:47:35,204
Dubai International Financial Center, because they found out that

744
00:47:35,894 --> 00:47:39,474
financial companies were not coming to Dubai because of Sharia law.

745
00:47:40,374 --> 00:47:43,334
And then the Sheikh said, what is a typical good law

746
00:47:43,364 --> 00:47:44,984
for these financial places?

747
00:47:45,774 --> 00:47:50,054
Well, they said like New York, Singapore, Hong Kong, it's common law, London.

748
00:47:50,284 --> 00:47:50,534
Yeah.

749
00:47:50,614 --> 00:47:52,224
And I said, okay, let's import a common law system.

750
00:47:53,024 --> 00:47:59,324
And, but also, uh, A court, a court with lawyers from those places, um,

751
00:47:59,324 --> 00:48:00,924
not lawyers, judges from those places.

752
00:48:01,664 --> 00:48:06,494
And to, to gain confidence with investor, um, with the investment,

753
00:48:06,704 --> 00:48:08,904
uh, and that worked, right?

754
00:48:09,214 --> 00:48:13,284
It took a while, but now the DEIFC is so small, it's only one

755
00:48:13,284 --> 00:48:16,934
square kilometer, accounts for nearly 10 percent of Dubai's GDP.

756
00:48:16,934 --> 00:48:20,244
They have, I think, you know, 6, 000 companies registered there.

757
00:48:20,244 --> 00:48:21,744
That's a fantastic success.

758
00:48:21,794 --> 00:48:24,034
It has been copied by Abu Dhabi Global Market.

759
00:48:24,644 --> 00:48:29,234
Well, Astana, I think Binance is there in the Astana International Financial Center.

760
00:48:29,704 --> 00:48:32,144
Um, other, other countries are trying to do it.

761
00:48:33,024 --> 00:48:35,834
And then a third race was this idea in Honduras.

762
00:48:36,389 --> 00:48:41,189
That was partly based on the idea of Honduran governments wanted to copy

763
00:48:41,189 --> 00:48:47,309
Hong Kong because their country was in disarray and in the hands of drug lords.

764
00:48:47,909 --> 00:48:52,159
And they wanted to create independent enclaves of rule of law.

765
00:48:52,659 --> 00:48:57,379
And then Paul Romer came with his TED talk, Charter Cities, and these ideas

766
00:48:57,439 --> 00:49:02,899
amalgamated in this first law in Honduras that they create autonomous zones.

767
00:49:03,649 --> 00:49:08,109
in the country that can even grow and have completely their own right there.

768
00:49:08,819 --> 00:49:14,792
Cities are subject to serenity of Honduras when it comes to foreign

769
00:49:15,362 --> 00:49:20,402
policy, defense, they have to follow international agreements, immigration,

770
00:49:20,612 --> 00:49:24,882
but for all the internal things they can completely create an own jurisdiction.

771
00:49:25,412 --> 00:49:31,247
And so, Coming back to your question, uh, since I also was involved and we

772
00:49:31,257 --> 00:49:38,116
have in PROSPERA and, uh, we have all also very good contacts to Massimo

773
00:49:38,116 --> 00:49:42,147
Marzono, who is the creator of the second CD, Morazan, which is really

774
00:49:42,157 --> 00:49:47,357
more a blue collar CD for Honduran workers, but, um, and more influenced

775
00:49:47,407 --> 00:49:50,627
by, um, Spencer, he's Spencer McCallum.

776
00:49:51,142 --> 00:49:54,862
Uh, ideas of entrepreneurial communities, but they also are based

777
00:49:54,862 --> 00:49:58,452
on a contract, a rental contract, which includes everything else.

778
00:49:59,732 --> 00:50:02,902
So you can see that these two are really the first, I would say,

779
00:50:02,902 --> 00:50:07,082
examples in the world where you have something which is not exactly, but

780
00:50:07,082 --> 00:50:10,292
relatively close to a free private city.

781
00:50:10,905 --> 00:50:16,485
and this, which is just existing, not an idea that somebody had and

782
00:50:16,495 --> 00:50:19,515
never has, has been made a reality.

783
00:50:19,555 --> 00:50:20,315
They do exist.

784
00:50:21,115 --> 00:50:26,920
They have come under attack after the, uh, the socialist government, uh, or the,

785
00:50:26,995 --> 00:50:29,545
the socialists won the last election.

786
00:50:30,195 --> 00:50:34,935
And one of their points was we have to get rid of the sad because this is selling

787
00:50:34,940 --> 00:50:42,255
out our countries to, uh, mostly Americans and colonialism and all these usual crap.

788
00:50:43,058 --> 00:50:48,548
but the Hondurans themselves had protected the sad quite well in their,

789
00:50:48,878 --> 00:50:50,828
uh, constitution in the city law.

790
00:50:51,158 --> 00:50:52,208
So they're still there.

791
00:50:52,298 --> 00:50:55,388
They are under attack, but more verbal attack.

792
00:50:55,998 --> 00:51:01,428
And there is a lawsuit now, uh, pending, uh, on the international,

793
00:51:02,019 --> 00:51:06,009
investment dispute, uh, arbitration court in Washington against,

794
00:51:06,069 --> 00:51:07,809
uh, the state of Honduras.

795
00:51:08,044 --> 00:51:09,324
But actually, there are several of them.

796
00:51:09,504 --> 00:51:13,554
One of them is from the SEDE, uh, Prospera, claiming 10 billions

797
00:51:13,594 --> 00:51:15,414
in lost damages and everything.

798
00:51:16,204 --> 00:51:19,254
It's not to get the money, it's more to bring them back to the negotiation

799
00:51:19,254 --> 00:51:25,212
table and, at the moment, they're, they're, again, under attack, but Still,

800
00:51:25,212 --> 00:51:29,352
both SEDEs are there, and there's a third SEDE, which is just a company

801
00:51:29,402 --> 00:51:36,712
SEDE, uh, I'm not sure if they have given in, but, um, in any case, the two

802
00:51:36,712 --> 00:51:40,772
SEDEs which are more oriented towards a free private city model, they are

803
00:51:40,772 --> 00:51:47,172
still there, they are fighting, and, um, I've heard that all other parties,

804
00:51:47,212 --> 00:51:51,767
except the Socialist, Who have lost the majority recently in parliament.

805
00:51:52,417 --> 00:51:55,877
All other big parties say, yeah, we are willing to, to, to talk about

806
00:51:55,977 --> 00:52:00,467
you and negotiate, uh, something that you can, can continue to exist

807
00:52:00,467 --> 00:52:04,837
because they see that a lot of, uh, in Prospera, a lot of, uh, entrepreneurs

808
00:52:04,837 --> 00:52:06,147
are coming from all over the world.

809
00:52:06,427 --> 00:52:11,017
A lot of people from Honduras are finding work, um, very innovative

810
00:52:11,027 --> 00:52:12,427
things that they are doing there.

811
00:52:12,897 --> 00:52:15,747
And, uh, I mean, destroying this.

812
00:52:16,347 --> 00:52:18,047
would benefit no one, right?

813
00:52:18,727 --> 00:52:23,917
I mean, other than they say, hey, we have destroyed the Yankees or whatever

814
00:52:23,937 --> 00:52:28,787
they claim, in Morazan, where basically 99 percent of the people are Hondurans,

815
00:52:29,047 --> 00:52:34,627
it's even more difficult to, what is the gain if they destroy this, right?

816
00:52:35,137 --> 00:52:41,437
And, and, uh, they have, the Morazan is in an area which is the most

817
00:52:42,087 --> 00:52:49,392
crime ridden part of Honduras, near the town of Choloma, and The three

818
00:52:49,392 --> 00:52:53,602
companies that were operating in the zone, they got cold feet after the

819
00:52:53,602 --> 00:52:57,722
government was so hostile and they stopped investing and stopped working.

820
00:52:58,362 --> 00:53:03,382
And Massimo, the owner of the Cedia, also wanted to stop any further investments,

821
00:53:03,452 --> 00:53:09,532
but the pressure from the Hondurans Just to live within the city was so large that

822
00:53:09,562 --> 00:53:13,482
he is now resumed building residential.

823
00:53:13,512 --> 00:53:16,862
So it's, at the moment, it's just a residential area, and you might wonder

824
00:53:16,862 --> 00:53:21,952
why this is the case, but the reason is just, um, in the city of Morazan,

825
00:53:21,972 --> 00:53:30,582
you can, can go out and have a grill party after dawn, uh, when it's dark.

826
00:53:30,812 --> 00:53:34,762
It's totally impossible in the rest of this part of the country of Honduras,

827
00:53:34,762 --> 00:53:37,562
because gangs are dominating the streets.

828
00:53:38,117 --> 00:53:41,907
Every shop is closed and you don't leave the house when it's dark.

829
00:53:42,417 --> 00:53:47,687
Um, and you cannot just be happy with your children on the street.

830
00:53:47,687 --> 00:53:51,847
And this is exactly why so many people are pouring into, say, the

831
00:53:51,847 --> 00:53:53,237
Morals Fund, so low hanging fruit.

832
00:53:53,277 --> 00:53:57,427
He's providing security, but he would provide many, many, many other things

833
00:53:57,427 --> 00:53:59,807
if they, um, leave him to do this again.

834
00:54:00,027 --> 00:54:04,687
And we all have some hope that, uh, I think it's two more years until

835
00:54:04,687 --> 00:54:08,547
the election that then things will change again, and this will be proof.

836
00:54:08,567 --> 00:54:13,857
These models can survive even against a hostile government.

837
00:54:13,867 --> 00:54:18,787
So it's very important what's happening in Honduras, so we all have to speak

838
00:54:18,807 --> 00:54:21,527
up in favor of those experiments.

839
00:54:21,927 --> 00:54:25,227
Remember, participation is 100 percent voluntary.

840
00:54:25,577 --> 00:54:27,547
There was zero land expropriated.

841
00:54:27,627 --> 00:54:30,537
Every piece of land has been bought by former owners.

842
00:54:31,557 --> 00:54:39,037
Absolute consensual voluntary society model, and everybody around

843
00:54:39,427 --> 00:54:44,187
has only additional options, right?

844
00:54:44,237 --> 00:54:47,437
They have additional jobs, they have additional income if they want.

845
00:54:47,782 --> 00:54:52,952
The companies are getting, um, uh, orders from, uh, getting, getting businesses,

846
00:54:53,152 --> 00:54:55,222
uh, business and jobs from the zone.

847
00:54:55,712 --> 00:54:59,046
So, it's an additional option that wasn't there before.

848
00:54:59,106 --> 00:55:03,586
So the, the argument that this is evil is just, it's, it's nonsense.

849
00:55:03,926 --> 00:55:07,626
And I think more and more people will, will recognize this even in Honduras,

850
00:55:08,326 --> 00:55:11,846
uh, in the Honduran public, which is of course, in this case, the most important

851
00:55:11,846 --> 00:55:16,326
part of the public, and they will see that this is to the benefit of the country.

852
00:55:16,846 --> 00:55:21,206
Because suddenly it's corruption has disappeared, inefficiency has

853
00:55:21,206 --> 00:55:25,856
disappeared, extremely lengthy application procedures have disappeared.

854
00:55:26,406 --> 00:55:30,126
So that immediately raises the standard of living for everyone.

855
00:55:30,596 --> 00:55:35,547
And that is why I'm confident that if we can prove this, let's say,

856
00:55:35,547 --> 00:55:40,377
on two more places in the world, then the model will be established.

857
00:55:40,607 --> 00:55:43,527
Now, what else is happening?

858
00:55:43,617 --> 00:55:45,322
Because that has been a while since this.

859
00:55:45,512 --> 00:55:46,662
To say this, we're established.

860
00:55:47,042 --> 00:55:52,872
So we were other groups, but mostly us, we were involved in this type

861
00:55:52,872 --> 00:55:56,942
of really getting the same SADE like autonomy that we need to establish

862
00:55:56,972 --> 00:55:59,132
really privately governed entities.

863
00:55:59,932 --> 00:56:02,912
And we had a project in West Africa, which was very far advanced.

864
00:56:03,982 --> 00:56:08,502
Uh, we had a law passed by parliament, a contract negotiated but not signed,

865
00:56:08,552 --> 00:56:13,352
unfortunately, and then there was a change in, in power, um, election,

866
00:56:13,402 --> 00:56:18,132
and, uh, to the surprise of everyone, it was a landslide victory of the

867
00:56:18,132 --> 00:56:23,382
opposition, everybody had, had accepted the coalition, and the opposition leader

868
00:56:23,402 --> 00:56:27,612
didn't want any of the project that the old government had established,

869
00:56:27,727 --> 00:56:28,787
What country was this?

870
00:56:29,202 --> 00:56:29,832
uh, Sao Tomei.

871
00:56:30,693 --> 00:56:31,043
Ah,

872
00:56:31,093 --> 00:56:32,613
So, to me, an island state.

873
00:56:32,813 --> 00:56:33,423
Prisip, yeah, yeah.

874
00:56:33,563 --> 00:56:38,553
But now, recently, he has said that he might be open to these ideas

875
00:56:38,553 --> 00:56:43,603
again, so maybe other groups have more success there, so, but this

876
00:56:43,603 --> 00:56:44,783
is not the only country, right?

877
00:56:44,783 --> 00:56:48,033
There are other countries where we are, have MOUs with the governments

878
00:56:48,033 --> 00:56:52,203
and where it's more the question, is it politically feasible?

879
00:56:52,223 --> 00:56:55,383
Does the government want it to bring it on the table now?

880
00:56:55,853 --> 00:57:00,873
And then we have things like, which are government, um, Organized like

881
00:57:01,073 --> 00:57:07,373
Bitcoin City could become something, uh, uh, like a free city that you have

882
00:57:07,423 --> 00:57:11,793
the Neon projects in Saudi Arabia, which is also, um, established by

883
00:57:11,793 --> 00:57:16,643
the state, but it could become, uh, uh, one country, two systems model.

884
00:57:16,713 --> 00:57:17,913
I think that's even the intention.

885
00:57:18,833 --> 00:57:24,713
And, uh, and so far you can see that there is a trend towards those developments.

886
00:57:24,893 --> 00:57:30,783
It's, it's still early days, it's, it's still relatively small, but, um, I'm

887
00:57:30,783 --> 00:57:35,923
relatively sure that there, there are three trends in the special economic zone

888
00:57:35,923 --> 00:57:38,313
industry that are working in our favor.

889
00:57:38,893 --> 00:57:43,823
You have all over the world, uh, more than 5, 000 special economic zone, uh,

890
00:57:43,843 --> 00:57:46,783
nearly 6, 000 according to the World Bank.

891
00:57:47,543 --> 00:57:52,383
And many of them are not functional, but some are really large and, and, and do

892
00:57:52,393 --> 00:57:54,653
function, and therefore businesses only.

893
00:57:54,653 --> 00:58:01,983
And, but over time you have seen they started as free ports, warehousing, then

894
00:58:02,013 --> 00:58:07,733
in the 60s, then it came to manufacturing in the 80s, in the 90s and 2000s.

895
00:58:08,668 --> 00:58:12,248
added services, financial services, and now they're adding

896
00:58:12,248 --> 00:58:14,438
residential components like in DRFC.

897
00:58:14,838 --> 00:58:20,198
So it's a logical next step that you then have a real city at the next time, right?

898
00:58:20,198 --> 00:58:24,448
Because you have all the other steps before, and many countries still think

899
00:58:24,448 --> 00:58:28,788
they should make a special economic zone for each industry once, which is, it's,

900
00:58:29,178 --> 00:58:30,938
it doesn't make much sense in my view.

901
00:58:31,058 --> 00:58:35,723
But, therefore, The natural development was more and more things

902
00:58:35,723 --> 00:58:39,503
will happen in those zones, and the next element would be residential.

903
00:58:39,863 --> 00:58:43,493
And if you have everything including residential on a one country, two systems

904
00:58:43,533 --> 00:58:49,323
model, then it's already nearly freezing, or it can be at least adapted to that.

905
00:58:49,363 --> 00:58:54,971
And the other trend you have is that You have seen that the privately governed

906
00:58:54,991 --> 00:58:59,571
zones where a private company is acting on behalf of the state, they are more

907
00:58:59,571 --> 00:59:01,141
successful than the publicly governed.

908
00:59:01,631 --> 00:59:05,201
There's a variety of reasons, but it's a usual thing where wrong incentives,

909
00:59:05,741 --> 00:59:10,181
unqualified people because I'm a buddy of the government, I get become the

910
00:59:10,181 --> 00:59:11,991
CEO of the zone and things like that.

911
00:59:12,331 --> 00:59:15,741
Why they don't not really work and the privately governed who have the

912
00:59:15,751 --> 00:59:17,621
incentive to make profit, they do.

913
00:59:18,208 --> 00:59:22,528
and the third, um, uh, trend is that you really can see that the

914
00:59:22,528 --> 00:59:24,658
legal autonomy is also increasing.

915
00:59:25,355 --> 00:59:28,715
20 years ago there was no such thing as, as own courts.

916
00:59:28,745 --> 00:59:33,545
Then DFC come up with own independent courts and then the Hondurans

917
00:59:33,550 --> 00:59:36,305
say this, were coming with, you have the right to make own laws.

918
00:59:36,305 --> 00:59:37,025
Then we have now.

919
00:59:37,630 --> 00:59:42,110
Copycats of DRFC and hopefully soon copycats of Thesedis.

920
00:59:42,140 --> 00:59:47,480
I'm working on that front, but I cannot disclose in which

921
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:48,580
countries we are working.

922
00:59:48,580 --> 00:59:53,780
And the reason for this is why, uh, because, uh, this is highly political.

923
00:59:54,130 --> 00:59:57,700
And no matter which party is in power, the other party will use that,

924
00:59:57,780 --> 01:00:02,980
uh, as a political football, uh, to damage the current government.

925
01:00:02,980 --> 01:00:07,760
And so far, we can, it's, and it's, as you can imagine, I mean, giving up part

926
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:12,400
of, uh, autonomy to, uh, to another entity, that is not an easy task.

927
01:00:12,570 --> 01:00:16,320
So, um, we have to argue that it's a win win situation, which it is,

928
01:00:16,660 --> 01:00:18,170
but nevertheless, it's difficult.

929
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:20,200
And so it takes normally, indeed, years.

930
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:24,170
Until you have an agreement with the government, uh, and the

931
01:00:24,190 --> 01:00:28,220
majority of parliament must give their consent to make this happen.

932
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:33,160
But I can assure you it's going to happen, it's going to happen in the next years.

933
01:00:33,269 --> 01:00:37,939
because not only our company, but also other groups are working on that front.

934
01:00:38,029 --> 01:00:43,489
And now it's just a question of time because so many governments are in

935
01:00:43,519 --> 01:00:48,098
principle open to those ideas that, uh, I think we will see it happen soon.

936
01:00:49,019 --> 01:00:52,309
Yeah, uh, very interesting stuff indeed.

937
01:00:52,349 --> 01:00:57,059
Uh, you said something there about like, uh, why would they attack, uh,

938
01:00:57,119 --> 01:01:01,389
that benefits no one, but that's sort of the problem with socialism, right?

939
01:01:01,439 --> 01:01:07,089
It never benefits anyone in the end, and that's a great section from the,

940
01:01:07,089 --> 01:01:10,879
uh, The White Pill by Michael Malice, if you're aware of that book about the

941
01:01:10,879 --> 01:01:16,919
Soviet Empire, where Gorbachev, I think it's Gorbachev, that visits America,

942
01:01:17,269 --> 01:01:23,119
and he goes into a supermarket in a one horse town in some, while traveling

943
01:01:23,349 --> 01:01:27,259
from one city to another, and there's more food there than he has ever seen

944
01:01:27,259 --> 01:01:32,094
in his entire life in the Soviet Union, so even the elites there The quote

945
01:01:32,094 --> 01:01:37,664
unquote elites, the most successful thieves, they had less than like the

946
01:01:37,664 --> 01:01:39,744
poorest person in the US at the time.

947
01:01:40,090 --> 01:01:42,430
But here you can see it in one country, right?

948
01:01:42,430 --> 01:01:45,530
So, um, let me make you an, give you an example.

949
01:01:45,850 --> 01:01:51,110
In Honduras, in the late 70s or early 80s, they introduced these

950
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:54,500
maquilas, which were special economic zones for the textile industry.

951
01:01:54,850 --> 01:01:56,860
That means you could import raw material.

952
01:01:57,545 --> 01:02:01,715
Uh, without duties and export t shirts without duty.

953
01:02:02,555 --> 01:02:04,095
That was basically the whole story, right?

954
01:02:04,135 --> 01:02:10,035
And, um, so it was a big, uh, big advantage for the companies there because

955
01:02:10,517 --> 01:02:16,192
they could really, without paying extra money, could, could, could make a margin

956
01:02:16,252 --> 01:02:18,662
on the low labor costs and all that.

957
01:02:19,122 --> 01:02:22,312
And there was also, of course, a lot of opposition, especially from

958
01:02:22,312 --> 01:02:23,992
the leftists against those songs.

959
01:02:24,512 --> 01:02:29,632
But after the first 20, 000 jobs were created, not a single party, not

960
01:02:29,642 --> 01:02:35,152
even the socialists, uh, requested, uh, the maquilas to be shut down.

961
01:02:35,812 --> 01:02:38,602
And now there are several hundred thousand people working those

962
01:02:38,642 --> 01:02:42,002
maquilas, uh, creating a lot of jobs in, uh, in Honduras.

963
01:02:42,622 --> 01:02:47,302
And there were a lot of voters, uh, uh, who are, do not

964
01:02:47,302 --> 01:02:48,642
want to, to lose their jobs.

965
01:02:48,882 --> 01:02:53,362
And so far, the CD's were closed down too early, right?

966
01:02:53,362 --> 01:02:58,722
They had, did not have the opportunity to show yet what they

967
01:02:58,742 --> 01:03:00,332
can do, what they can create.

968
01:03:01,042 --> 01:03:05,622
So it was a bit of a, uh, of an unlucky thing that the Honduran

969
01:03:05,622 --> 01:03:09,652
government also took so long time for, to make all these decisions.

970
01:03:09,712 --> 01:03:15,372
And, um, uh, but I still, I'm still confident if these cities, these two

971
01:03:15,372 --> 01:03:20,032
cities survive and they will create thousands of jobs, then the same

972
01:03:20,032 --> 01:03:24,072
effect will set in that we have seen before, that people then suddenly

973
01:03:24,112 --> 01:03:27,212
think, okay, there are thousands of people and thousands of voters.

974
01:03:27,572 --> 01:03:31,112
If you close them down, they all will be angry at us.

975
01:03:31,717 --> 01:03:38,527
So this is my, my political hope that even in such systems, uh, um, eventually the

976
01:03:38,537 --> 01:03:42,867
people will say, Hey, wait a minute, why, why are they destroying thousands of jobs?

977
01:03:43,057 --> 01:03:45,417
Like, what would we, what do we get in exchange?

978
01:03:45,817 --> 01:03:46,307
Nothing.

979
01:03:46,822 --> 01:03:52,242
I mean, this is, uh, the journey for me personally in deep diving into

980
01:03:52,242 --> 01:03:56,727
Austrian economics and praxeology is like, At first, you, you, when you

981
01:03:56,727 --> 01:03:59,797
suspect that something is wrong with the world, and when you first do the deep

982
01:03:59,797 --> 01:04:03,617
dive, you become very cynical and you think that everything will go to shit,

983
01:04:03,667 --> 01:04:09,097
like every, there's totalitarianism, totalitarianist tendencies everywhere,

984
01:04:09,097 --> 01:04:13,297
and there's taxes everywhere, money printing everywhere, everything sucks.

985
01:04:13,917 --> 01:04:19,327
But the, the, the deeper you dive into human action and what people do, you

986
01:04:19,337 --> 01:04:22,357
realize that market forces are stronger.

987
01:04:22,367 --> 01:04:26,067
The light side of the force is stronger than the dark side.

988
01:04:26,077 --> 01:04:32,597
Like we, we, we are, uh, markets will win because they're

989
01:04:32,667 --> 01:04:35,457
simply more efficient and Yeah.

990
01:04:35,627 --> 01:04:37,407
So, so, so it's very hopeful.

991
01:04:37,757 --> 01:04:39,367
And Knut, that's my point.

992
01:04:39,367 --> 01:04:44,737
I say, okay, if markets are so efficient, then let's adopt market mechanisms in

993
01:04:44,817 --> 01:04:47,457
our living together as well, right?

994
01:04:47,537 --> 01:04:50,487
Because eventually people will go where they are treated best.

995
01:04:51,797 --> 01:04:53,007
And, and that is the point, right?

996
01:04:53,007 --> 01:04:55,087
I treat you well, the others don't.

997
01:04:55,117 --> 01:04:59,892
Well, then people come to me, or as Alex Ujori put it from, from Morazan, he

998
01:04:59,892 --> 01:05:03,675
said, we create a good system and then we just wait because eventually all the

999
01:05:03,675 --> 01:05:05,785
good people will show up here, right?

1000
01:05:05,895 --> 01:05:08,715
Well, at the moment it's not yet happening, but at the moment I see a

1001
01:05:08,715 --> 01:05:12,315
lot of good people showing up in Dubai, which was not the case two years ago.

1002
01:05:12,335 --> 01:05:16,625
So it's a real, I see this even in our shareholder base from my, from people

1003
01:05:16,625 --> 01:05:21,185
is my, my, my for profit company that more and more of our people are moving

1004
01:05:21,205 --> 01:05:23,515
to Dubai and that gives me a sign.

1005
01:05:23,515 --> 01:05:23,775
Okay.

1006
01:05:23,775 --> 01:05:24,745
Obviously there's.

1007
01:05:25,010 --> 01:05:28,250
They are dissatisfied with where they are, and this is

1008
01:05:28,260 --> 01:05:31,290
supposedly Consider the solution.

1009
01:05:31,860 --> 01:05:38,140
And as you say, market forces are always there and they're also also there on

1010
01:05:38,140 --> 01:05:42,970
the market of living together because, Dubai is offering a product, right?

1011
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:47,630
As Monaco is, and the U S is offering a product and Venezuela

1012
01:05:47,650 --> 01:05:52,360
is offering the product and the market makes their decision.

1013
01:05:52,380 --> 01:05:56,390
Then people vote with their feet and that is what you can make

1014
01:05:56,390 --> 01:05:58,410
all kinds of propaganda and say.

1015
01:05:58,860 --> 01:06:02,760
We have the media in our hands and they will all say how good we

1016
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:04,050
are and how bad the others are.

1017
01:06:04,070 --> 01:06:07,120
If people move from your country, leave your country to the

1018
01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:09,970
other ones, then obviously what you are talking is not true.

1019
01:06:10,580 --> 01:06:15,170
and this is, I think, gives me hope, um, because this cannot be stopped.

1020
01:06:15,230 --> 01:06:18,710
If, if they want really to stop people moving from one country to

1021
01:06:18,710 --> 01:06:23,580
another, I don't think that can be done in a majority of, of countries.

1022
01:06:23,861 --> 01:06:27,361
Not, not, not, not now when we have this ability to do

1023
01:06:27,361 --> 01:06:28,901
video conferencing at distance.

1024
01:06:28,901 --> 01:06:30,871
It's, it's, to me, that's still amazing.

1025
01:06:31,081 --> 01:06:34,071
Like some people don't, like every time I go on an airplane,

1026
01:06:34,071 --> 01:06:35,431
I think this is fucking amazing.

1027
01:06:35,471 --> 01:06:37,091
I'm, I'm in the air, I'm

1028
01:06:37,091 --> 01:06:37,641
flying.

1029
01:06:37,691 --> 01:06:39,071
It's still amazing.

1030
01:06:39,111 --> 01:06:41,671
Like it's, it never ceases to be amazing.

1031
01:06:41,681 --> 01:06:45,711
And the same goes for this stuff, this computer doing all this calculation.

1032
01:06:45,711 --> 01:06:49,756
And it's like, And sending a signal halfway across the planet so we can talk

1033
01:06:49,756 --> 01:06:52,126
and and exchange ideas with one another.

1034
01:06:52,366 --> 01:06:54,376
It's changing everything and quickly

1035
01:06:54,376 --> 01:06:54,766
too.

1036
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:56,000
And it's, it's fantastic.

1037
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:59,660
And it's, it's, uh, the connectivity is so much higher, right?

1038
01:06:59,660 --> 01:07:04,854
And, I think, I think before the internet, people were thinking, if

1039
01:07:04,854 --> 01:07:08,494
you were an Austin economic, you would say maybe there are 100 of me

1040
01:07:08,504 --> 01:07:10,514
in my country, in Germany, right?

1041
01:07:10,914 --> 01:07:12,234
100, I think, alike.

1042
01:07:12,604 --> 01:07:18,414
of 80 million, or maybe thousand, but now that we have all these connections,

1043
01:07:18,414 --> 01:07:22,894
we know that we are more, and that we can make an argument, win an

1044
01:07:22,894 --> 01:07:29,719
argument, and then it's easy, um, and, uh, because reality Will eventually

1045
01:07:29,719 --> 01:07:33,879
prevail in reality is that people want to have a better living and the

1046
01:07:33,879 --> 01:07:37,829
propaganda, especially from the left is saying that's a bad thing, right?

1047
01:07:38,739 --> 01:07:40,969
But I say, hey, people want to have a better living.

1048
01:07:41,459 --> 01:07:42,879
No matter if it's good or bad.

1049
01:07:42,909 --> 01:07:43,949
It's just how it is.

1050
01:07:44,639 --> 01:07:50,122
And so that's also what Mises said, hey, you say, okay, what I, Mises, am saying

1051
01:07:50,132 --> 01:07:53,792
is just that if you want to create an environment where people have a better

1052
01:07:53,802 --> 01:07:56,362
living, then you shouldn't do it this way.

1053
01:07:56,822 --> 01:08:00,002
But I do not say that this is the target.

1054
01:08:00,112 --> 01:08:02,762
If you say we don't want to have a better living, then of

1055
01:08:02,762 --> 01:08:05,102
course you can use other methods.

1056
01:08:06,167 --> 01:08:06,477
Right?

1057
01:08:06,537 --> 01:08:10,217
And so this is, in a way, apolitical, right?

1058
01:08:11,367 --> 01:08:14,677
Market forces, liberal, libertarianism is apolitical.

1059
01:08:14,677 --> 01:08:19,947
You say, okay, if you want to have more freedom and, uh, and, and high quality

1060
01:08:19,947 --> 01:08:21,817
of living, this is the way to go.

1061
01:08:22,647 --> 01:08:27,377
But if you don't, because you are religious extremist or a sectarian,

1062
01:08:27,597 --> 01:08:29,797
say, no, we have too much.

1063
01:08:29,847 --> 01:08:33,397
We need only to have very few things and that's all good.

1064
01:08:33,437 --> 01:08:36,157
And we need guidance every day from the priest.

1065
01:08:36,772 --> 01:08:40,432
Well, then you choose another system, of course, which is then okay.

1066
01:08:41,562 --> 01:08:46,432
That is what we should make clear to the people that we are only, we do not want

1067
01:08:46,442 --> 01:08:49,042
to force the whole world into our system.

1068
01:08:49,272 --> 01:08:56,212
We just making an offer and participation is voluntary, 100 percent voluntary.

1069
01:08:56,212 --> 01:08:58,372
And that is my, my big goal.

1070
01:08:58,527 --> 01:09:00,497
I would say headline of free cities.

1071
01:09:00,507 --> 01:09:04,487
This is a peace offer in the political spectrum because you can create other

1072
01:09:04,487 --> 01:09:08,957
free cities, which are not so free or which have a more social security net,

1073
01:09:08,957 --> 01:09:10,687
but then you have to make higher payments.

1074
01:09:10,947 --> 01:09:12,537
This is all a product, right?

1075
01:09:12,707 --> 01:09:13,637
No need to argue.

1076
01:09:13,687 --> 01:09:15,267
No need to be hostile.

1077
01:09:15,667 --> 01:09:16,587
You make your product.

1078
01:09:16,617 --> 01:09:17,267
I make mine.

1079
01:10:34,343 --> 01:10:37,123
Yeah, which is also, by the way, the best pitch for Bitcoin.

1080
01:10:37,403 --> 01:10:38,783
It's completely voluntary.

1081
01:10:38,813 --> 01:10:39,973
No one's forcing you.

1082
01:10:40,413 --> 01:10:45,653
Like, that's, that is the big, uh, and speaking of, like, uh, I like to do my

1083
01:10:45,653 --> 01:10:50,713
report, my duty as an, uh, ambassador for the Free Cities, uh, project,

1084
01:10:50,723 --> 01:10:55,483
uh, we, uh, Luke and I have recently returned from Madeira where we, I spent

1085
01:10:55,493 --> 01:11:00,923
three weeks and Luke spent about one week and we, uh, we had a great time

1086
01:11:00,943 --> 01:11:04,403
and I, I was able to be there on the island before there, there, and there

1087
01:11:04,403 --> 01:11:06,283
are many more Bitcoiners there now.

1088
01:11:06,673 --> 01:11:11,163
And, uh, many more, like this, this app called btcmap.

1089
01:11:11,183 --> 01:11:13,283
org, where you can see where all the merchants are.

1090
01:11:13,583 --> 01:11:17,353
And when, when we started the project, like one and a half years back, there

1091
01:11:17,353 --> 01:11:19,323
was one cafe that was orange pilled.

1092
01:11:19,783 --> 01:11:25,728
And, and of course, Andre's own company, which is, uh, Uh, uh, uh, uh,

1093
01:11:25,728 --> 01:11:30,378
apartment rental company also accepted Bitcoin, but now there's like 30 or

1094
01:11:30,378 --> 01:11:35,348
40 places that all accept Bitcoin and you, you, uh, and, and also there,

1095
01:11:35,348 --> 01:11:39,128
there's this, uh, they've, they've had this in January and February that had

1096
01:11:39,128 --> 01:11:45,278
this, uh, Nostr Bitcoin developer, um, Gathering happening in the islands.

1097
01:11:45,308 --> 01:11:47,518
So there's a lot of nomads and stuff moving there.

1098
01:11:47,848 --> 01:11:51,588
And the funny thing is when you have a critical mass and that critical mass,

1099
01:11:51,588 --> 01:11:56,678
it's not 50%, it's like tiny when to just, if the, if that's just a tiny bunch

1100
01:11:56,988 --> 01:12:01,163
of like minded people, and especially with coiners, All the monetary problems

1101
01:12:01,163 --> 01:12:04,993
go away because someone always has fiat and someone you can, you can shoot

1102
01:12:05,113 --> 01:12:09,203
each other's satoshis and just solve everything and just be nice to one

1103
01:12:09,203 --> 01:12:11,383
another and just do things voluntarily.

1104
01:12:11,383 --> 01:12:13,343
And there's nothing no one else can do about it.

1105
01:12:13,713 --> 01:12:15,143
And it's so liberating.

1106
01:12:15,353 --> 01:12:18,693
And when the actual conference happened so that the island was flooded with

1107
01:12:18,703 --> 01:12:22,973
these people and there were so many families, I mean, I've never seen so

1108
01:12:22,973 --> 01:12:28,968
much love in, in the same Places at once, I think, and such a beautiful

1109
01:12:28,978 --> 01:12:30,628
setting also, this paradise island.

1110
01:12:30,638 --> 01:12:34,768
So I was, it made me very hopeful, even, even though it's still in the

1111
01:12:34,768 --> 01:12:38,608
EU and there's still a government to tackle them, blah, blah, blah.

1112
01:12:39,228 --> 01:12:41,028
As long as we have each other, we're fine.

1113
01:12:41,558 --> 01:12:45,958
Wasn't there an idea to create a, to, to, in, in, uh, public buildings

1114
01:12:45,958 --> 01:12:48,668
to create a kind of a Bitcoin village or something like that?

1115
01:12:48,688 --> 01:12:49,988
Has this made progress?

1116
01:12:50,233 --> 01:12:55,393
Uh, there wa there, there's still still some Bitcoiners that have ideas of,

1117
01:12:55,453 --> 01:12:57,373
uh, you know, buying property there.

1118
01:12:57,793 --> 01:13:03,193
And, uh, uh, not only, you know, a single whale here and there, buying

1119
01:13:03,193 --> 01:13:07,333
a lot of property, but, but also like bitcoiners pooling together.

1120
01:13:07,333 --> 01:13:08,953
There's a, there's an idea about.

1121
01:13:09,403 --> 01:13:15,543
Doing that in, like, akin to how people have their vacations in ski holiday

1122
01:13:15,543 --> 01:13:21,593
resorts, uh, and they have the cabin for two weeks, uh, this would be, like, uh,

1123
01:13:21,773 --> 01:13:26,763
a company, an international company that owns property in different jurisdictions

1124
01:13:26,763 --> 01:13:31,418
across the world, and you can just You know, home swap with other like minded

1125
01:13:31,418 --> 01:13:36,378
people and, and deal in Bitcoin and never have to worry, uh, about interference.

1126
01:13:36,398 --> 01:13:39,248
So there's a lot of stuff like that happening as well,

1127
01:13:39,428 --> 01:13:39,598
Yeah.

1128
01:13:39,598 --> 01:13:42,438
And these, these are the things that are easier to be done, right?

1129
01:13:42,438 --> 01:13:44,538
Because you don't need to have to negotiate legal

1130
01:13:44,538 --> 01:13:45,998
autonomy from the government.

1131
01:13:46,008 --> 01:13:48,538
We, I mean, Madeira has some autonomy.

1132
01:13:48,588 --> 01:13:53,528
Um, uh, even the EU has granted that because they are so far away.

1133
01:13:53,528 --> 01:13:56,368
And, uh, and so far.

1134
01:13:56,578 --> 01:13:59,748
There was a discussion if they could extend their autonomy, but the

1135
01:13:59,748 --> 01:14:05,818
finding was that the politicians did not have the backbone to stand up

1136
01:14:05,818 --> 01:14:09,608
against Lisbon or the European Union.

1137
01:14:09,638 --> 01:14:15,088
And so what we can do there is what you mentioned, just by practicing

1138
01:14:15,108 --> 01:14:17,908
things, by bringing people together.

1139
01:14:17,908 --> 01:14:21,683
And I'm just coming back from New Hampshire, Um, I was visiting a New

1140
01:14:21,683 --> 01:14:25,583
Hampshire Free State project and, um, holding a speech on Liberty Forum

1141
01:14:25,583 --> 01:14:28,463
conference, and they are doing the same.

1142
01:14:28,473 --> 01:14:33,143
We're just bringing people together, and many of them are candidates

1143
01:14:33,363 --> 01:14:38,773
now for, for Congress and Senate in New Hampshire or on a local level,

1144
01:14:39,403 --> 01:14:40,633
and so we can make a difference.

1145
01:14:40,633 --> 01:14:42,963
Um, so they can basically prevent.

1146
01:14:43,468 --> 01:14:45,178
Anti liberty laws now.

1147
01:14:45,178 --> 01:14:51,148
They have enough power in the state parliament to prevent that, so that

1148
01:14:51,148 --> 01:14:55,828
shows me this is, this is certainly a strategy that could work and it could

1149
01:14:55,888 --> 01:15:02,508
maybe work if Madeira is becoming officially a Bitcoin hotspot because

1150
01:15:02,568 --> 01:15:04,558
these people will then influence it.

1151
01:15:04,883 --> 01:15:06,713
The way how things work, right?

1152
01:15:06,713 --> 01:15:11,693
And that has happened in El Salvador when these Bitcoin beach people

1153
01:15:11,713 --> 01:15:17,673
were just trading Bitcoin and then Bukele said, discovered that and

1154
01:15:17,683 --> 01:15:20,143
say, hey, this is a good idea, but let's make it in the whole country.

1155
01:15:20,373 --> 01:15:24,163
And who knows, maybe this can be replicated, um, in other places.

1156
01:15:24,893 --> 01:15:28,313
And, and, and so far I can only, that's why we are supporting

1157
01:15:28,313 --> 01:15:29,523
all those projects, right?

1158
01:15:29,878 --> 01:15:33,448
And no matter if it's Seasteading, if it's a Madeira project, where you say,

1159
01:15:33,448 --> 01:15:37,768
okay, probably don't get legal autonomy, but you can get factual autonomy by

1160
01:15:37,778 --> 01:15:39,408
just doing the things you mentioned,

1161
01:15:39,568 --> 01:15:43,358
which is in a way more important because like, it's, it's the actual freedom

1162
01:15:43,358 --> 01:15:45,368
you have, like the freedom to opt out.

1163
01:15:45,678 --> 01:15:49,668
As long as you deal in Bitcoin and never convert back to the banking system,

1164
01:15:49,978 --> 01:15:53,508
you don't have the problems, like they just go away, they just vanish.

1165
01:15:53,538 --> 01:15:56,558
But for that to be the case, you need other Bitcoiners or you need to

1166
01:15:57,008 --> 01:15:57,708
a network.

1167
01:15:57,798 --> 01:15:59,008
convert people.

1168
01:15:59,508 --> 01:15:59,788
Yeah.

1169
01:15:59,988 --> 01:16:02,028
network is coming into existence.

1170
01:16:02,158 --> 01:16:06,398
Remember, it was not last year, but the year before, where you had Bitcoiners.

1171
01:16:07,553 --> 01:16:10,883
Saying, okay, you can, you can make your living, you can buy all kinds

1172
01:16:10,883 --> 01:16:12,723
of products with Bitcoins, right?

1173
01:16:12,973 --> 01:16:16,283
Where people are really offering this as a, as a business, as a

1174
01:16:16,283 --> 01:16:21,303
service, Bitcoin warehouse and, and things like that, right?

1175
01:16:21,303 --> 01:16:26,173
is, uh, through what, uh, one of our sponsors, Wasabi Wallet, uh,

1176
01:16:26,183 --> 01:16:30,643
who has a service where you can now buy anything in Europe for Bitcoin.

1177
01:16:31,373 --> 01:16:37,793
And, like, it's through a private chat with a, a provider that will order the

1178
01:16:37,803 --> 01:16:42,193
thing for you and then send it, uh, and then take care of all the legal stuff

1179
01:16:42,233 --> 01:16:45,443
and, uh, order it properly from wherever.

1180
01:16:45,543 --> 01:16:46,713
At all the stores in Fiat.

1181
01:16:47,373 --> 01:16:54,893
And this entity, who shall remain unnamed, uh, does, uh Or maybe several

1182
01:16:54,893 --> 01:16:57,213
entities, uh, does all that stuff.

1183
01:16:57,253 --> 01:16:59,723
And you can order with Bitcoin to anywhere in Europe.

1184
01:16:59,773 --> 01:17:04,563
Of course you have to, uh, give, give an address, but that's, that's much privacy

1185
01:17:04,563 --> 01:17:09,163
as you have to give up and via Wasabi wallet, you can coin join and have your

1186
01:17:09,173 --> 01:17:10,933
Bitcoins be completely private as well.

1187
01:17:11,163 --> 01:17:13,943
So there's no way for anyone to, to, to stop that.

1188
01:17:13,983 --> 01:17:15,533
And, and all of these.

1189
01:17:15,808 --> 01:17:21,878
These kinds of developments, which are legal, it's just that some people want,

1190
01:17:22,078 --> 01:17:26,868
really, really want to make them illegal for some reason that we libertarians don't

1191
01:17:26,898 --> 01:17:28,848
understand because it's victimless crime.

1192
01:17:30,249 --> 01:17:33,719
But, but the tools are being developed and they are coming.

1193
01:17:33,759 --> 01:17:38,385
And I, I think It's an inevitability that more and more jurisdictions will,

1194
01:17:38,415 --> 01:17:42,705
will cling on to, especially Bitcoin, because, because of the game theory,

1195
01:17:43,645 --> 01:17:46,235
countries that do will fare better.

1196
01:17:46,315 --> 01:17:47,835
It's, it's just a simple fact.

1197
01:17:47,835 --> 01:17:49,075
They attract a lot of money.

1198
01:17:49,075 --> 01:17:50,055
Look at El Salvador.

1199
01:17:50,055 --> 01:17:51,555
It's a perfect example.

1200
01:17:51,826 --> 01:17:55,816
indeed, then for this reason alone, thank God we have 200 countries, not

1201
01:17:55,816 --> 01:17:57,496
only one world government, right?

1202
01:17:57,496 --> 01:17:59,926
Because this competition between the countries that is

1203
01:17:59,926 --> 01:18:01,336
making that things happening.

1204
01:18:01,686 --> 01:18:04,846
And as you said, people will now watch.

1205
01:18:05,746 --> 01:18:09,466
What's happening in El Salvador, and if, if El Salvador is successful,

1206
01:18:09,466 --> 01:18:12,656
then especially the countries, the poorer countries that have

1207
01:18:12,656 --> 01:18:15,046
to do something, they will adopt.

1208
01:18:15,266 --> 01:18:19,186
I mean, Switzerland will probably not follow El Salvador right now, right?

1209
01:18:19,226 --> 01:18:20,296
Never say never!

1210
01:18:20,546 --> 01:18:23,126
yeah, well, they have done their Lugano stuff, right?

1211
01:18:23,126 --> 01:18:24,556
But this is on a, on a local level.

1212
01:18:24,846 --> 01:18:28,866
But, um, successful, strong countries, they have lesser need

1213
01:18:28,876 --> 01:18:30,876
for change than poorer countries.

1214
01:18:30,876 --> 01:18:31,806
It's just how it is.

1215
01:18:32,146 --> 01:18:35,166
And that gives the poorer countries a competitive advantage.

1216
01:18:35,421 --> 01:18:38,611
Which is good, that's how competition works and it should be like that.

1217
01:18:39,071 --> 01:18:45,231
Um, but it's, it's still so that when you're coming back to these, why we

1218
01:18:45,231 --> 01:18:50,711
libertarians don't understand that, um, the problem is for the majority of people

1219
01:18:50,771 --> 01:18:55,561
this is not a victimless crime because they say you have to give your fair

1220
01:18:55,701 --> 01:19:03,806
share to the state, which is us, right, we the collective, Um, and their notion

1221
01:19:03,816 --> 01:19:09,946
is that you do not own things, but you only can use them on behalf of all of us.

1222
01:19:10,856 --> 01:19:14,506
So, and that is, I, you can't argue that away.

1223
01:19:14,926 --> 01:19:20,966
The only, um, the only thing we can do is physically separate from those people and

1224
01:19:20,966 --> 01:19:26,201
show that our systems will create A better standard of living for everyone, including

1225
01:19:26,201 --> 01:19:27,891
the poor people, than their systems.

1226
01:19:29,231 --> 01:19:33,491
I've tried to convince people 30 years on the political front.

1227
01:19:33,501 --> 01:19:34,851
It's not going to work.

1228
01:19:35,376 --> 01:19:36,886
Especially the poor people!

1229
01:19:37,446 --> 01:19:40,866
Because what happens is the prices fall to their marginal cost of

1230
01:19:40,866 --> 01:19:45,021
production, and that's Especially benefits the poorer people.

1231
01:19:45,301 --> 01:19:48,261
And if there's inflation, any inflation.

1232
01:19:48,696 --> 01:19:51,186
The prices can't fall to the marginal cost of production

1233
01:19:51,186 --> 01:19:53,046
because there's no measuring stick.

1234
01:19:53,361 --> 01:19:55,261
And Knut, we just need to show this.

1235
01:19:55,261 --> 01:20:01,261
We need some time, we need some jurisdictions and some years to show this.

1236
01:20:01,321 --> 01:20:05,776
And I think that is giving me hope because that's how the world works.

1237
01:20:05,776 --> 01:20:07,561
It will show to people.

1238
01:20:08,111 --> 01:20:09,381
Um, that it's working.

1239
01:20:09,381 --> 01:20:12,381
And if we have a higher standard of living, there will still

1240
01:20:12,381 --> 01:20:14,151
be a lot of propaganda, right?

1241
01:20:14,571 --> 01:20:17,171
Uh, but people will just say, compare, right?

1242
01:20:17,171 --> 01:20:20,091
They will compare China with Hong Kong in 1990s and say,

1243
01:20:20,171 --> 01:20:21,941
let's go to Hong Kong, right?

1244
01:20:22,201 --> 01:20:24,411
Uh, and, and the same will happen again.

1245
01:20:24,461 --> 01:20:29,491
And, um, um, I'm curious, Madeira, are they using a lightning system for

1246
01:20:29,491 --> 01:20:31,931
their payments in Bitcoin or how is it

1247
01:20:31,986 --> 01:20:37,446
Mostly, yes, yes, uh, or like, uh, BTCPayServer is a fantastic

1248
01:20:37,456 --> 01:20:41,716
company, by the way, who, uh, uh, uh, handled all the payments during

1249
01:20:41,716 --> 01:20:43,456
the conference, most enlightening.

1250
01:20:43,991 --> 01:20:48,711
Uh, and, uh, oh, I don't remember the exact figure, but there was a lot of

1251
01:20:48,751 --> 01:20:54,901
money changing hands, all frictionless, worked like a dream, uh, the entire thing.

1252
01:20:55,431 --> 01:20:59,951
Uh, and, uh, so it's fantastic, but most of the, I mean, the retailers

1253
01:20:59,951 --> 01:21:03,591
on the island that accept that you have everything from someone Just

1254
01:21:03,591 --> 01:21:08,591
accepting it on his personal phone to actual payment terminals, like

1255
01:21:08,701 --> 01:21:13,061
everything in between, like Bitcoin is not imposed on anyone or centralized.

1256
01:21:13,081 --> 01:21:15,231
So you have all sorts of different solutions, right?

1257
01:21:16,091 --> 01:21:16,691
Exactly.

1258
01:21:17,211 --> 01:21:18,341
It should be like that,

1259
01:21:18,506 --> 01:21:19,186
exactly.

1260
01:21:19,186 --> 01:21:20,326
It's, it's flourishing.

1261
01:21:20,326 --> 01:21:24,246
It's a, it's an ecosystem in the, the word's true sense.

1262
01:21:24,316 --> 01:21:26,656
It's, it's a nature blooming.

1263
01:21:27,186 --> 01:21:28,606
that's that's what it feels like.

1264
01:21:28,606 --> 01:21:29,366
So, uh, yeah,

1265
01:21:29,568 --> 01:21:35,448
And to get an idea about what these autonomous songs idea, once it's taking

1266
01:21:35,458 --> 01:21:43,998
off, can, can do is when in Honduras, the government change was, and we had

1267
01:21:44,028 --> 01:21:49,138
three existing SADES, the people from the old government told me there were

1268
01:21:49,138 --> 01:21:51,648
20 more applications on their desk.

1269
01:21:52,728 --> 01:21:56,968
20 more zones and some zones are more environmental protectionist

1270
01:21:57,398 --> 01:21:58,928
and all kinds of things.

1271
01:21:59,278 --> 01:22:03,348
So that was the original idea that the CD would change the

1272
01:22:03,348 --> 01:22:04,568
whole country of Honduras.

1273
01:22:04,808 --> 01:22:08,878
It was stopped now by socialists winning, but there's another election

1274
01:22:08,898 --> 01:22:12,798
and once this is taking off, it will be like you described it in Madeira.

1275
01:22:13,113 --> 01:22:17,743
All kinds of different models will pop up, flourish, some will disappear again,

1276
01:22:17,743 --> 01:22:20,213
but others will really be successful.

1277
01:22:20,793 --> 01:22:24,293
And the learning curve is going like this, right?

1278
01:22:24,303 --> 01:22:27,462
I mean, the learning curve today in the market of living together

1279
01:22:27,463 --> 01:22:31,963
is Soviet Union, 70 years until they found out it's not working.

1280
01:22:32,788 --> 01:22:36,908
Two generations, basically three generations basically erased it, and then

1281
01:22:36,948 --> 01:22:41,468
it takes another 200 years to find out, okay, this constitutional model is maybe

1282
01:22:41,468 --> 01:22:46,668
not really a protection, whereas in our model, it's a question of years, right?

1283
01:22:46,668 --> 01:22:49,298
And the learning curve will be extremely steep.

1284
01:22:50,073 --> 01:22:50,273
yeah.

1285
01:22:50,273 --> 01:22:54,643
I, I somewhat see the, the price of Bitcoin as a derivative of the,

1286
01:22:54,653 --> 01:22:59,463
the, the learning curve for, for humanity in general about freedom

1287
01:22:59,513 --> 01:23:02,108
and how to, how you need to it.

1288
01:23:02,378 --> 01:23:06,048
To take it that no one will give it for you to you for free, but you

1289
01:23:06,048 --> 01:23:10,018
have to take matters into your own hands and like the price of Bitcoin,

1290
01:23:10,228 --> 01:23:14,078
at least if you zoom out enough or put it on a log scale or whatever to

1291
01:23:14,078 --> 01:23:19,228
make it more visually compelling, it somewhat reflects our knowledge of

1292
01:23:19,228 --> 01:23:20,638
the collective knowledge of the world.

1293
01:23:21,728 --> 01:23:26,648
Anyway, uh, Luke, do you have a question for Titus?

1294
01:23:26,688 --> 01:23:29,698
I think it's high time we let you in before we run out of it.

1295
01:23:29,979 --> 01:23:30,974
Sure, Tidus.

1296
01:23:30,974 --> 01:23:32,169
Yeah, sorry, Knut.

1297
01:23:32,289 --> 01:23:32,659
Thank you.

1298
01:23:32,659 --> 01:23:34,619
And yeah, Tidus, this has been fantastic.

1299
01:23:34,619 --> 01:23:38,039
I've really enjoyed hearing your perspective on all these things.

1300
01:23:38,079 --> 01:23:42,419
I think it's not only very aligned with what we're doing, but practical.

1301
01:23:42,529 --> 01:23:47,609
I like specifically your take on the kind of the security and the incentives to

1302
01:23:49,009 --> 01:23:53,449
keep these free economic cities um Secure.

1303
01:23:53,871 --> 01:23:57,371
my, my, my question, uh, I guess, since you, you covered a lot of these things

1304
01:23:57,371 --> 01:24:01,701
from the, the, um, I guess, theoretical perspective and then from the, what's

1305
01:24:01,701 --> 01:24:05,911
going on here in, in Honduras, uh, can you tell us a little more about, uh,

1306
01:24:05,941 --> 01:24:09,041
your, your company, uh, Teepolis and, and what you're working with there?

1307
01:24:09,483 --> 01:24:14,253
Yeah, so we have gathered a team of people who are partly coming

1308
01:24:14,253 --> 01:24:17,303
from the retirement spectrum, partly just from the international

1309
01:24:17,303 --> 01:24:22,423
special economic zone industry to, to make a professional approach.

1310
01:24:22,423 --> 01:24:28,223
So it's not convincing people about, uh, philosophical ideas

1311
01:24:28,223 --> 01:24:30,223
of voluntarism or libertarism.

1312
01:24:30,363 --> 01:24:34,053
It's just a purely for profit model because again, we

1313
01:24:34,053 --> 01:24:35,633
think free markets are best.

1314
01:24:35,633 --> 01:24:36,673
So I think.

1315
01:24:37,353 --> 01:24:43,633
Such a libertarian model can only work if it's not a group of idealists

1316
01:24:43,913 --> 01:24:48,313
or a group of scholars creating a new system of living together,

1317
01:24:48,513 --> 01:24:51,483
but if it's driven to make profit.

1318
01:24:51,484 --> 01:24:55,143
I think this is just the best incentive you can have.

1319
01:24:55,823 --> 01:24:56,143
Okay.

1320
01:24:56,449 --> 01:24:57,269
you're for losses.

1321
01:24:57,395 --> 01:24:58,267
Yeah,

1322
01:24:58,432 --> 01:25:01,512
yes, but, uh, there are two things, right?

1323
01:25:01,512 --> 01:25:05,032
I mean, I've, I've been in, in, in this sector for a long

1324
01:25:05,032 --> 01:25:07,122
time, uh, for venture capital.

1325
01:25:07,172 --> 01:25:11,042
Uh, you, you, at the moment, we are not, we are making some

1326
01:25:11,052 --> 01:25:14,132
small money with consulting, but mostly we're making losses.

1327
01:25:14,627 --> 01:25:17,407
But on the other hand, our value is increasing, right?

1328
01:25:17,547 --> 01:25:21,337
We have just, we have just finalized the financing round on the pre

1329
01:25:21,337 --> 01:25:23,227
money valuation of 25 million.

1330
01:25:23,507 --> 01:25:25,817
So this is not nothing, right?

1331
01:25:25,817 --> 01:25:27,737
It's just now it's 30.

1332
01:25:28,287 --> 01:25:29,237
So post money.

1333
01:25:29,277 --> 01:25:32,757
So this is, this is showing you, okay, even if you're losing

1334
01:25:32,757 --> 01:25:35,297
money, but people see that there's value in what you're doing.

1335
01:25:35,712 --> 01:25:39,912
Um, your, your, your value is growing and at the same time, we are

1336
01:25:39,912 --> 01:25:42,172
working on, on becoming profitable.

1337
01:25:42,982 --> 01:25:49,492
So what we are currently doing is we have, um, especially I would say in Latin

1338
01:25:49,492 --> 01:25:56,152
America, some discussions on a highest level with presidents, prime ministers,

1339
01:25:56,312 --> 01:26:02,852
uh, government level, uh, if we can establish something like, uh, in Honduras.

1340
01:26:03,637 --> 01:26:11,637
But not this, more this free private city model, so that you have a government, a

1341
01:26:11,637 --> 01:26:13,327
company is entitled by the government.

1342
01:26:13,757 --> 01:26:17,957
So in Honduras, it's a little bit of mixed, a hybrid model, because they wanted

1343
01:26:17,987 --> 01:26:22,162
to replicate Hong Kong, and then at the same time, private governance was mixed.

1344
01:26:22,872 --> 01:26:24,292
Relatively complicated model.

1345
01:26:25,082 --> 01:26:27,832
So, we want to go more for the pure model, but it also depends

1346
01:26:27,832 --> 01:26:29,352
on what is politically feasible.

1347
01:26:29,372 --> 01:26:34,842
So, we are trying to create real free cities, autonomous

1348
01:26:34,912 --> 01:26:37,662
zones, mostly in Latin America.

1349
01:26:38,917 --> 01:26:48,925
We have some, I would say, projects that are in between that are not fully, the

1350
01:26:49,125 --> 01:26:54,775
full model, but they are capitalizing on local autonomies that are there.

1351
01:26:54,775 --> 01:26:55,945
And we are also consulting.

1352
01:26:59,045 --> 01:27:05,385
Governments, I would say, in the Middle East region, who want to, uh,

1353
01:27:05,425 --> 01:27:08,875
come up with innovative new things in the special conduct zones industry.

1354
01:27:09,776 --> 01:27:15,746
And, um, Madeiras is another example, and where we, we hope that we can, um,

1355
01:27:16,801 --> 01:27:21,101
Create together with them something that, that is a win win situation for

1356
01:27:21,101 --> 01:27:24,681
us, uh, Friends of Liberty, as well as for the, for the local governments.

1357
01:27:25,111 --> 01:27:26,071
And the local economy.

1358
01:27:26,741 --> 01:27:27,821
And I think it's possible.

1359
01:27:27,861 --> 01:27:32,161
And, uh, and so far this is, um, these are the areas where we are working.

1360
01:27:32,161 --> 01:27:35,731
And so to put it in a nutshell, we have some of the more flagship

1361
01:27:35,741 --> 01:27:38,951
project where we go for the real free private city autonomy model.

1362
01:27:39,661 --> 01:27:43,871
Few countries, then we have something in between, which is then more

1363
01:27:44,731 --> 01:27:49,921
little bit like financial center models, uh, local autonomy models.

1364
01:27:50,001 --> 01:27:51,501
And we have some consulting jobs.

1365
01:27:52,121 --> 01:27:59,101
And, um, this is why I'm so relatively confident that, uh, that we will be

1366
01:27:59,101 --> 01:28:03,359
eventually successful because it's, I followed the history of these

1367
01:28:03,359 --> 01:28:07,249
attempts to create new countries and autonomous areas in the past.

1368
01:28:07,249 --> 01:28:09,849
There may be one attempt every 10 years.

1369
01:28:10,864 --> 01:28:13,904
Now we have 10 to 20 every year.

1370
01:28:14,234 --> 01:28:16,984
So, um, it's just there's momentum there.

1371
01:28:17,004 --> 01:28:21,384
And as I said, the other groups are working in the same market.

1372
01:28:22,044 --> 01:28:27,924
And so it's, it's relatively probable that we will see more CDA type autonomies.

1373
01:28:28,594 --> 01:28:30,584
Uh, in the future, we can try out new things.

1374
01:28:30,584 --> 01:28:35,644
We will have, we see different things, maybe even real countries like, or

1375
01:28:35,734 --> 01:28:40,608
autonomous entities will, will come up and suddenly are becoming, you know, Bitcoin

1376
01:28:40,618 --> 01:28:42,928
destinations, hotspots or whatever.

1377
01:28:43,568 --> 01:28:46,508
Um, there are other places in Africa where also a lot of things

1378
01:28:46,508 --> 01:28:47,828
are going on at the moment.

1379
01:28:48,213 --> 01:28:52,823
But it's, uh, it's too early days to, uh, um, to, to see what's,

1380
01:28:53,083 --> 01:28:54,513
what's coming out of this.

1381
01:28:54,553 --> 01:29:00,353
But I can only invite you, Luke, and everybody else to follow the newsletter

1382
01:29:00,393 --> 01:29:03,503
of the Free CDs Foundation, free cds.

1383
01:29:03,723 --> 01:29:09,333
org, because there you will get the newest news if, if, uh, new

1384
01:29:09,343 --> 01:29:12,313
projects, uh, have reached the stage where they can be published.

1385
01:29:12,658 --> 01:29:13,358
Fantastic.

1386
01:29:13,398 --> 01:29:13,718
Yeah.

1387
01:29:13,748 --> 01:29:18,978
Lovely to hear about all of this, um, practical stuff going on and, uh, yeah.

1388
01:29:18,978 --> 01:29:21,718
Looking forward to seeing what's going on with the.

1389
01:29:22,363 --> 01:29:28,543
Free Cities movement, uh, hopeful that Bitcoin and the free cities can,

1390
01:29:28,543 --> 01:29:33,343
uh, um, see the aligned incentives and, uh, work together somehow.

1391
01:29:33,343 --> 01:29:37,003
But again, only through, only through the, the voluntary and

1392
01:29:37,003 --> 01:29:41,353
consensual, uh, uh, relations of the, the people involved with both.

1393
01:29:41,353 --> 01:29:43,453
So, uh, Knut, anything else?

1394
01:29:44,018 --> 01:29:48,088
we're doing that right now, uh, we're emitting freedom dioxide

1395
01:29:48,088 --> 01:29:49,548
together and we're proud of it.

1396
01:29:49,598 --> 01:29:53,308
And, uh, Titus, you have an impressive freedom footprint

1397
01:29:53,318 --> 01:29:57,198
already, and we're happy to have increased it a little more, I hope.

1398
01:29:57,658 --> 01:29:59,348
And so great to have you on here.

1399
01:29:59,388 --> 01:30:04,058
And I hope to see you soon again, uh, probably in Prague, um,

1400
01:30:04,218 --> 01:30:06,088
this, uh, This fall, I guess?

1401
01:30:06,668 --> 01:30:08,008
Yeah, it would be fantastic.

1402
01:30:08,488 --> 01:30:12,078
It's from the 1st to 3rd November in Prague, the same

1403
01:30:12,078 --> 01:30:14,788
venue as last time Empire Hall.

1404
01:30:15,283 --> 01:30:20,623
Um, and it's also, uh, visible at the Free Cities Foundation's website

1405
01:30:20,653 --> 01:30:22,813
and, uh, it's a fantastic crowd.

1406
01:30:22,873 --> 01:30:27,153
Uh, we had a great conference and also a very positive mood, right?

1407
01:30:27,153 --> 01:30:30,973
So, uh, somebody told me nobody was talking about politics, but there were

1408
01:30:31,043 --> 01:30:34,563
families there and, and everybody's talking about their projects and

1409
01:30:34,563 --> 01:30:35,863
what they are making progress.

1410
01:30:35,893 --> 01:30:41,853
And, And the good thing is that there is a network coming into

1411
01:30:41,853 --> 01:30:44,553
existence by people meeting.

1412
01:30:44,553 --> 01:30:48,303
It's not only just Bitcoin with the Bitcoiners or how are Bitcoin

1413
01:30:48,303 --> 01:30:51,923
applications, but it's also between the projects amongst each other.

1414
01:30:52,363 --> 01:30:56,283
For example, we have now And this is what was, what I always was

1415
01:30:56,283 --> 01:30:59,283
saying, this was one of the reasons for making this conference is you

1416
01:30:59,283 --> 01:31:01,123
should know about each other, right?

1417
01:31:01,143 --> 01:31:04,873
And for the first time we had a representative from New Hampshire

1418
01:31:04,913 --> 01:31:06,433
Free State Project in Prague.

1419
01:31:06,853 --> 01:31:10,193
We had, as usual, Liberland, uh, Liberstadt from nowhere

1420
01:31:10,243 --> 01:31:13,793
was their first time, and the Montelibro guys from Montenegro.

1421
01:31:13,793 --> 01:31:17,743
Now the interesting thing is, um, the European international communities

1422
01:31:17,743 --> 01:31:22,913
in Liberland, they have made, uh, basically, they are cooperating now.

1423
01:31:22,943 --> 01:31:23,153
Liberstadt.

1424
01:31:24,813 --> 01:31:31,703
In Norway, with Liberland, Croatia, Serbia, and Monteliber

1425
01:31:31,703 --> 01:31:35,243
and Montenegro, they even want to introduce a bus line in the summer.

1426
01:31:35,243 --> 01:31:40,253
The bus is traveling between those three communities.

1427
01:31:40,948 --> 01:31:43,778
And that is, we are not many people, right?

1428
01:31:43,818 --> 01:31:48,498
But that gives us a particular strength that we are working together,

1429
01:31:48,498 --> 01:31:50,608
that we can exchange each other.

1430
01:31:51,118 --> 01:31:54,288
Uh, again, that's a great thing of, of technology today.

1431
01:31:54,808 --> 01:32:01,048
Um, and, and that was for me, it's kind of, okay, the first, Results from the

1432
01:32:01,048 --> 01:32:06,758
idea to create a movement, create a network are now bearing fruit, right?

1433
01:32:06,828 --> 01:32:12,468
These people, uh, without introducing me or so, are immediately acting

1434
01:32:12,478 --> 01:32:15,938
with each other, cooperating with each other, helping each other.

1435
01:32:16,788 --> 01:32:19,658
And that, uh, that is only the beginning, right?

1436
01:32:19,688 --> 01:32:25,528
I mean, we will have probably, um, uh, in, in 5 to 10 years, a whole

1437
01:32:25,528 --> 01:32:29,848
network all over the world Where people cooperating with each other, they all

1438
01:32:29,848 --> 01:32:31,428
know each other and they help each other.

1439
01:32:32,058 --> 01:32:36,728
And this gives us enormous strength, even if it's in summer,

1440
01:32:36,878 --> 01:32:38,548
maybe only 10, 000 people.

1441
01:32:38,848 --> 01:32:41,278
But this will, will be enormous, right?

1442
01:32:41,278 --> 01:32:45,758
And so I'm really, every year, I'm really looking forward to what we will

1443
01:32:45,768 --> 01:32:50,648
learn new from the conference, from the projects, and I hope Knut and Luke,

1444
01:32:50,678 --> 01:32:55,238
next time I'm here, I can really then tell you about a concrete project.

1445
01:32:55,248 --> 01:32:59,138
We are relatively advanced with one, and then we can, we have

1446
01:32:59,138 --> 01:33:00,798
another spot on the, on the map.

1447
01:33:01,227 --> 01:33:02,197
Ah, fantastic.

1448
01:33:02,297 --> 01:33:04,727
Yeah, it all boils down to Metcalfe's law.

1449
01:33:04,737 --> 01:33:10,337
The value of a communications network is equal to the square of its users,

1450
01:33:10,437 --> 01:33:12,487
so we grow exponentially in value.

1451
01:33:13,047 --> 01:33:14,797
Uh, Titus, this has been great.

1452
01:33:14,947 --> 01:33:16,287
Thank you so much for coming on.

1453
01:33:16,627 --> 01:33:20,837
This has been the Freedom Footprint show, and Luke knows what to say next.

1454
01:33:21,872 --> 01:33:26,342
Uh, yeah, uh, Titus, can you tell our listeners, cause Knut sort of jumped

1455
01:33:26,342 --> 01:33:29,102
ahead a little bit, can you tell our listeners where they can find you and

1456
01:33:29,112 --> 01:33:31,822
any more information, anywhere else you'd like to direct our listeners?

1457
01:33:32,626 --> 01:33:37,726
So, as I said, the Free Cities Foundation would be the first, um,

1458
01:33:38,476 --> 01:33:40,516
uh, website I would, I would contact.

1459
01:33:40,516 --> 01:33:41,936
It's freeminercity.

1460
01:33:41,956 --> 01:33:42,406
org.

1461
01:33:42,706 --> 01:33:45,216
You'll find tons of information, the newsletter.

1462
01:33:45,536 --> 01:33:48,976
I, I urge you to, to subscribe to the newsletter just to

1463
01:33:48,986 --> 01:33:50,176
be up to date, informed.

1464
01:33:50,626 --> 01:33:55,446
Uh, if you want to find out more about me and Tipulis, maybe just go to titosgabel.

1465
01:33:55,486 --> 01:33:57,436
com or tipulis.

1466
01:33:57,466 --> 01:33:57,836
com.

1467
01:33:58,426 --> 01:34:01,616
Um, yeah, that's, that's more or less, and have a look at my book if

1468
01:34:01,626 --> 01:34:06,746
you like what, uh, the concept, the idea, then, uh, the white paper,

1469
01:34:06,766 --> 01:34:08,666
it can be downloaded for free.

1470
01:34:08,666 --> 01:34:12,726
And there's a book, um, available also, uh, either Amazon or through

1471
01:34:12,726 --> 01:34:14,631
the Free Cities Foundation's website.

1472
01:34:14,941 --> 01:34:15,391
Absolutely.

1473
01:34:15,391 --> 01:34:16,091
Fantastic.

1474
01:34:16,221 --> 01:34:18,061
Thank you again, Titus, for coming on.

1475
01:34:18,331 --> 01:34:19,881
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.

1476
01:34:20,371 --> 01:34:21,031
Thanks for listening.