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What are the actual problems with cloud computing?

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number one is invasion of privacy.

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number two is censorship.

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number three is outright cost.

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And number four is one that most people never think about, the

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inherent risk of honeypotting your data along with everyone else's

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We should be fighting on the education front, the cultural front, even

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the nutritional and health front.

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It's like, these are all valid fronts and each person should fight on whatever

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front they are best suited to do so.

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I, because of my, personality and tendencies and skill sets,

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fight on the technology front.

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Matt, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show, thanks for joining us.

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Thanks for having me.

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Yeah, hi Matt, uh, you, you work for Start9, or you started Start9, I guess,

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Co started, and

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co started, yeah, yeah,

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Yeah.

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I continue to

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overwork there,

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we'll call it.

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so, so this is a company where, uh, we're both very interested in, um, and

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the, um, the concepts there, uh, but first, um, a little Something about you.

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Maybe could you, could you give us the TLDR on, uh, Matt Hill, who

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you are and, uh, why you started start nine or CoStar start nine?

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who are you is always the hardest question I've ever had to answer

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because, you know, where do you start with something like that?

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Um, so I'm a, I'm a technologist, sort of by spirit, uh, I'm a developer,

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a software developer by trade.

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I am a huge advocate for, um, libertarian philosophy, On the extreme end of that,

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crypto anarchist, capitalist extreme, uh, end of the philosophic spectrum, and, uh,

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I tried to use my, uh, My interests and skills in technology and coding to try to

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implement products and technologies that change incentives in order to bring about

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the kind of society that I want to see and live in and want for my children as well.

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I'm also a father of two little girls, and we're hoping for more.

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And so my wife and I are You know, doing this journey together and

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trying to bring children into a better world that we help partially create.

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So I know that sounds a little fluffy, but it is very true in what I do.

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And, um, yeah, that's the high level about me.

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That sounds fantastic.

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It's, uh, what we do too, I guess, but maybe, maybe Our products

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are, uh, a little different.

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We do books and podcasts and stuff, uh, which is different from computers.

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side, which is something I admire and, you know, try to help with in

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any way that I can, uh, to those who do it well, but it's not.

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Fully what I do.

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Yeah, and right back at you.

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We're impressed with whatever actual technical people can do.

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What the actual magicians behind things like, uh, magical internet

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money are doing behind the scenes.

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So, uh, so tell us like, um, where to start this.

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Um, I'm thinking what is the most common misconception about

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cloud computing that people have?

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Why, what, what's wrong today?

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And, uh, what, what problems need to be fixed?

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I mean, I, I love the, the sort of meme phrase, the cloud is

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just somebody else's computer.

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Uh, I'm very happy that that phrase is becoming more widely,

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uh, propagated and understood.

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so the biggest misconception about the cloud is that it is some sort

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of magical ephemeral place where data goes to, to live safely.

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Um, the cloud is a computer.

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In somebody's building or warehouse, um, that is owned and operated, uh,

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and fully controlled by somebody else.

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And so when you, transact through, and I don't just mean monetary transactions.

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I mean, when you perform any sort of information transaction, through a

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cloud or store data on a cloud, process information through a cloud, uh, you

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are just temporarily, renting, leasing.

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Uh, somebody else's computer to do those things.

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And so once you realize that, you go, well, why are they doing that?

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Why are they giving me access to their computer to do my computing needs?

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Well, the answer is they're getting quite a bit out of it,

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probably a lot more than you think.

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and, um, there are inherent, risks involved in, in that transaction,

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that most people are unaware of.

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So, you know, we, we very much view, uh, cloud computing as it exists today,

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namely, people all over the world transacting through processing data on,

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storing data on, third party servers that are owned by an increasingly small

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number of, of companies, uh, as a, as a viable threat To human society, we, we

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think that this is not some trivial, thing that should be overlooked or dismissed

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as an inconvenience or even, um, a less cost effective way to do things.

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We believe that there are serious dangers that have been so thoroughly swept

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under the rug and, and perpetuated for so long that they are becoming, sort

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of structural in nature to these risks.

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that they are kind of.

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their, their failure, the failure of cloud computing in any meaningful

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way would, would mean sort of have disastrous consequences for society.

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So, so let me be more concrete about this.

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What are the actual problems with cloud computing?

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Um, number one is this idea of, uh, invasion of privacy.

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That cloud computing, um, inherently is non private, un private.

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Uh, because you're using somebody else's computer.

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When you do that, they have.

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A view of what you're doing, even if there's encryption, they have an

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enormous amount of insight into your activities, whether that's messaging

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or data or whatever it is, um, through metadata analysis, through network

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graphing, and in most cases, it's not encrypted anyway, and so they're just

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reading your raw data and messages.

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Now, do you matter?

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A lot of people take this concern, invasion of privacy, and they're

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just like, well, I don't care.

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If Google reads my emails or Dropbox can see my files, because

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I have nothing to hide and I'm just nobody and they don't care.

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And there's some validity to that.

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Um, but those people are often kind of missing the point, which is that

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you don't know what tomorrow holds.

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You have no idea, if you have something to hide or not.

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You might not have something to hide today because the things that you're

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doing today are perfectly acceptable, legal, uh, and commonplace, but if

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tomorrow, uh, you and your activities of yesterday are somehow stigmatized or

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made illegal, uh, all that data remains.

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So the things that you did in the past.

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can be held against you.

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furthermore, that information is used, uh, even if not to sort of spy

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on you in any sort of like, you know, deep state kind of authoritarian way.

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That data is absolutely used to perform kind of like customer analytics on

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you and, and, and garner a profile.

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of you and your purchasing habits and your lifestyle so that that can

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be sold to advertisers and you can then be kind of manipulated, you

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know, because you've exposed so much about yourself unwittingly to so many

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different parties and increasingly A.

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I.

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s and that is where it can get even really weird is because they might

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misuse this information and come to some conclusion about you that a

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human might not have and Who knows what the consequences of this can be.

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So it's more of a better safe than sorry type of approach when it comes to privacy.

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It's like private by default is good.

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And then when you choose to make something public under your own kind of volition,

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and you know what the, what the trade offs are, then you can choose to do that.

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But as it stands today, all of cloud computing is actually public by default,

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and you have to go to extreme measures to make things private, which is the

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opposite of how it should be, uh, for just a general, you know, approach.

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So that's number one.

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Uh, number two is censorship.

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So when you, when you and everyone else is using other people's computers,

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For your computing needs, those people decide what gets through, what

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doesn't get through, what is allowed, what is visible, what is invisible.

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And I'm not just talking about the like first thing that comes

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to people's minds when you say censorship, which is this person's

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been like silenced, de platformed.

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That's actually not what I mean.

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That's extremely rare.

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What I'm talking about is.

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The benign kind of terms and conditions that everyone agrees to, right,

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which is like, I'm going to use your computer, you present me with terms and

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conditions that are 80 pages long and I'm never going to read, and I click OK.

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And if suddenly I do anything that violates any of those terms and

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conditions, you can just cut me off from the service, cut me off from my data.

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And this could have real consequences for me, my family, or my business.

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And so basically you're agreeing, right, somebody else's house, their

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rules, their house, their rules.

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So if you're using somebody else's server, it's on their terms and you are agreeing

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to those terms blindly in most cases.

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And so therefore don't have any assurance that those services will

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continue to be provided for you.

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So there's risk.

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Number two is algorithmic Amplification and deamplification of messaging.

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That is how censorship happens in the modern world.

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It is extremely rare for somebody to be actually black bag silenced

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because that's too obvious.

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It's too overt.

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People notice that, but nobody notices algorithmic amplification.

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For example, if there's some narrative going around that is distasteful to

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the incumbent powers of the state, they don't need to silence it.

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They just need to drown it out with something much louder, right, so they just

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amplify some other piece of narrative or information so that everyone's talking

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about that and nobody notices the thing that's really important, combined

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with algorithmic deamplification of the important thing Most people will

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never even see it, and nobody will know that it had been censored, either,

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because there was no overt deletion.

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So that's number two.

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Uh, number three is outright cost.

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When you use somebody else's computer for your computing needs is going to

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be more expensive than using your own computer for your computing needs,

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in the same reason that going out to a restaurant is more expensive than

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cooking your own meal, because you are outsourcing The effort and the

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capital necessary to produce that meal.

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So when you do things yourself, it is cheaper.

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Sometimes it's harder, yes, but it is almost always cheaper than paying

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somebody else to do something for you.

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costs that these cloud providers and sats, software as a service providers,

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these are all your apps that run on your phones, the costs that they are

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incurring are rising very rapidly.

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In large part due to, uh, more extreme regulations, more extreme data practice,

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uh, you know, data privacy, regulations that are being imposed upon them, and

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their own just costs of servers and electricity and hiring employees and,

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you know, And as their costs rise, those costs get passed along to the consumer.

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So this is not something that's getting cheaper over time.

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It's something that's getting more expensive and getting

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there very quickly, right?

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If you've noticed in modern years, the free tiers of SaaS products, the like,

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you know, entry level free tiers are getting smaller and smaller and smaller

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and less featureful and the paid tiers are getting more common and steeper.

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Part of that is because these companies are less able to monetize.

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data than they were 10 years ago, before all the consumers started,

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um, you know, uh, speaking up and demanding data privacy, which then

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causes politicians to step into the spotlight and force companies to,

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you know, listen to the demands of consumers and do the data privacy.

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Well, in the process, what has happened is companies are no longer able to

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mine and monetize your data to the same extent that they could before.

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And so they're leaning more and more.

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And so expect those costs to continue to rise, as data privacy practices, uh,

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also continue to become more extreme.

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That's number three.

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Uh, and number four is one that most people never think about, which is

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the inherent risk of honeypotting your data along with everyone else's.

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This has nothing to do with surveillance or privacy or costs.

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It's simply, inherent in, you know, my data is worthless on its own, and

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your data is worthless on its own.

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But if we all put our data together into a giant bank, now that data

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in aggregate is very valuable.

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And therefore, makes that bank, or data honeypot, a target.

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And it's very, very hard to secure a server.

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right, from an application security standpoint, an encryption standpoint,

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it's fairly easy to secure a server.

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From an operational security standpoint, and a personnel

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standpoint, it's almost impossible.

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In fact, it is impossible, given the value of the server.

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If the server is valuable enough, eventually it will be breached,

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because there's always Insiders that have access to the server.

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They must, otherwise it's worthless data if nobody has access to it.

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So somebody has access to it, and getting to it is simply a matter of compromising

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that person, which can be done simply through creative social engineering,

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blackmail, bribery, threats, you name it.

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and so I say any server worth hacking will eventually be hacked.

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That server will have your data on it, even though you were not the target, and

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your data will be leaked, even though, that wasn't the intent of the hackers.

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They didn't even know who you were.

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You're just collateral damage in a cyber war that you didn't know

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existed, or that you never opted into.

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Um, and so, if you were in a city under siege, and that city was being, you

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know, attacked, you'd probably leave.

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Um, and so if Google servers are under siege and being attacked on a daily basis,

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which they are, you should probably leave.

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00:15:46,648 --> 00:15:50,558
You should probably get your stuff off of that server before it gets

236
00:15:50,558 --> 00:15:53,038
breached and you get a ransomware email.

237
00:15:53,363 --> 00:15:56,323
that says, hey, we have all of your photos.

238
00:15:56,542 --> 00:15:58,750
we also have all of your contacts.

239
00:15:58,750 --> 00:16:02,690
We also have all of the locations you visit, and we're going to leak the photos

240
00:16:02,690 --> 00:16:05,450
to everyone you don't want us to unless you send us Bitcoin to this address.

241
00:16:05,460 --> 00:16:09,370
Like I expect this to actually become a commonplace thing in the next 10 years.

242
00:16:09,731 --> 00:16:14,286
stuff, but it's certainly something that people should think of.

243
00:16:14,286 --> 00:16:19,966
A few things come to mind, like the first thing about, you know, you have

244
00:16:19,966 --> 00:16:24,936
nothing to hide now, but you might have something to hide in the future.

245
00:16:24,936 --> 00:16:29,096
What you do now might have different legal consequences in the future.

246
00:16:29,756 --> 00:16:35,066
That's very much in line with libertarian ideas about You know, not

247
00:16:35,116 --> 00:16:39,143
giving, politicians emergency powers and stuff like this because you don't

248
00:16:39,143 --> 00:16:42,693
know who the next, president is, or who the next prime minister is.

249
00:16:42,980 --> 00:16:46,976
The dictator for life of Kanada Stan is currently doing some of these things, yes.

250
00:16:48,206 --> 00:16:53,396
yeah, yeah, Kanada stan is experiencing that right now, yeah.

251
00:16:53,786 --> 00:16:58,426
so regardless of what you think about The current policies, like, if you give

252
00:16:58,516 --> 00:17:03,670
politicians too much power, someone from the opposite side may misuse it in the

253
00:17:03,670 --> 00:17:07,980
future, so that's The way to stop it is, of course, as you say, to just not

254
00:17:07,990 --> 00:17:13,290
give them, give them the data, give them the, give them something to, to wield.

255
00:17:13,830 --> 00:17:16,310
the second thing that comes to mind with the terms and condition

256
00:17:16,310 --> 00:17:19,520
is the, have you seen the South Park episode, Human Centipede?

257
00:17:20,170 --> 00:17:20,570
Oh yeah.

258
00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:21,760
Yeah.

259
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:23,100
South Park always nails it, right?

260
00:17:23,225 --> 00:17:28,435
Yeah, that's a perfect metaphor for what may or may not happen

261
00:17:28,435 --> 00:17:32,505
if you don't read the terms and conditions before you sign something.

262
00:17:32,885 --> 00:17:35,055
And yeah, there were other stuff.

263
00:17:35,055 --> 00:17:40,615
I mean, I like this fourth point a lot about the honeypot, because

264
00:17:40,615 --> 00:17:44,565
I really think it's something that people don't think about.

265
00:17:44,565 --> 00:17:49,421
And how much does encryption, like save you from, from that kind of.

266
00:17:50,211 --> 00:17:53,501
Blackmail scenario like if you're all your data is encrypted when it

267
00:17:53,501 --> 00:17:58,291
goes up to the server, it's kind of hard to sell it to someone else.

268
00:17:58,291 --> 00:17:58,571
Right.

269
00:17:58,790 --> 00:17:59,850
It helps a lot.

270
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:06,260
Um, as I mentioned, there are still sort of Metadata that gets through, right?

271
00:18:06,270 --> 00:18:09,400
So even if you're using an end to end encrypted messenger like

272
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:13,060
Signal, for example, Signal still knows a lot about you.

273
00:18:13,820 --> 00:18:17,350
They still know who you're talking to, when you're talking to them, how long

274
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:19,890
the messages that you type are, right?

275
00:18:19,890 --> 00:18:21,990
And some inference can be made off of that.

276
00:18:21,990 --> 00:18:27,385
For example, if you have a quick back and forth message with somebody, And

277
00:18:27,385 --> 00:18:30,565
then you get in your car and drive somewhere, you can infer through

278
00:18:30,565 --> 00:18:33,275
those messages that you were arranging a meetup with someone, right?

279
00:18:33,295 --> 00:18:37,165
So, definitely not as bad as if it's a honeypot of unencrypted

280
00:18:37,175 --> 00:18:42,465
data, but it's still not ideal, and also, almost nothing is encrypted.

281
00:18:42,945 --> 00:18:43,335
At rest.

282
00:18:44,685 --> 00:18:46,095
Almost nothing, right?

283
00:18:46,095 --> 00:18:51,215
There's very, very few cloud or SaaS products in the world where your

284
00:18:51,215 --> 00:18:55,435
data is actually sitting on a server encrypted in such a way that you are

285
00:18:55,435 --> 00:18:57,005
the only person that can decrypt it.

286
00:18:57,005 --> 00:18:58,395
It's almost non existent.

287
00:18:58,801 --> 00:19:02,711
What about like encryption models where you can't see the length of

288
00:19:02,711 --> 00:19:05,681
messages like SHA 256 it always.

289
00:19:06,421 --> 00:19:06,565
Turns

290
00:19:06,681 --> 00:19:07,341
not enough of an

291
00:19:07,341 --> 00:19:07,791
expert.

292
00:19:08,566 --> 00:19:10,796
Well, okay, actually, I'll answer that one.

293
00:19:11,006 --> 00:19:14,676
That's not, SHA 256 isn't encryption, it's a hash,

294
00:19:14,861 --> 00:19:15,461
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

295
00:19:15,491 --> 00:19:20,081
But , you know, uh, there, there are encryption models that, that put out

296
00:19:20,081 --> 00:19:24,011
the, the same length of date digits, regardless of what en encrypts.

297
00:19:24,126 --> 00:19:25,256
No, that's a hash.

298
00:19:25,266 --> 00:19:25,806
That's a hash.

299
00:19:25,826 --> 00:19:27,776
That's not, that's not the same thing as encryption.

300
00:19:27,776 --> 00:19:30,156
So, so encryption, there's, there's two types of encryption.

301
00:19:30,166 --> 00:19:34,156
There's public private key encryption, and Bitcoin uses that.

302
00:19:34,556 --> 00:19:38,796
And, uh, well, it's, it's used almost everywhere.

303
00:19:39,131 --> 00:19:43,981
On the internet, but, but, but that's, and then, and then there's so called

304
00:19:43,981 --> 00:19:48,441
symmetrical encryption, and that's a lot easier to do, and, and so this symmetrical

305
00:19:48,441 --> 00:19:52,661
encryption is what almost every kind of, um, say, data on a hard drive or data

306
00:19:52,661 --> 00:19:56,541
on the cloud or something is going to be encrypted with that, and then the public

307
00:19:56,541 --> 00:20:01,821
key cryptography is used for digital signatures and, and other related things,

308
00:20:01,901 --> 00:20:06,861
order for, um, all of your messages on Signal, for example, to appear to

309
00:20:06,861 --> 00:20:12,300
be the same length, Your client would have to be, sort of coming up with an

310
00:20:12,300 --> 00:20:16,300
assumed maximum length of a message that you can send, and then just filling

311
00:20:16,300 --> 00:20:20,290
all your other messages with gibberish past some sort of like identifier byte,

312
00:20:20,540 --> 00:20:22,870
which would be a massive waste of space.

313
00:20:23,525 --> 00:20:24,935
And nobody would do.

314
00:20:25,075 --> 00:20:26,155
Like, Signal wouldn't do that.

315
00:20:26,165 --> 00:20:29,835
They'd just be intentionally storing junk on their servers, and maybe

316
00:20:29,835 --> 00:20:31,415
they would do it, but they don't.

317
00:20:31,945 --> 00:20:36,425
And, um, yeah, I mean, again, it's not a hash, as Luke said.

318
00:20:36,435 --> 00:20:41,375
It is the amount of bytes of encrypted data will correlate

319
00:20:41,415 --> 00:20:44,035
to the amount of unencrypted bytes of data that produced it.

320
00:20:44,418 --> 00:20:47,388
sorry, putting on my, putting on my cyber hat, man, I,

321
00:20:47,568 --> 00:20:48,168
that's nice.

322
00:20:48,173 --> 00:20:52,158
I mean, uh, the, the notion of a hash just, uh, popped in as a brain

323
00:20:52,163 --> 00:20:54,528
fart here, uh, because of like the,

324
00:20:55,373 --> 00:20:58,928
the, the, the thing you said about knowing the length of messages.

325
00:20:59,228 --> 00:21:00,398
Anyway, so,

326
00:21:00,578 --> 00:21:02,258
point is that it's not encrypted.

327
00:21:02,628 --> 00:21:06,898
Almost nothing is encrypted because if it were, right, let's say that you were

328
00:21:06,898 --> 00:21:12,748
using some SaaS or cloud provider where everything was encrypted, encrypted client

329
00:21:12,748 --> 00:21:17,728
side and sent to the server and stored that way, that would mean that if their

330
00:21:17,728 --> 00:21:22,548
servers ever rebooted, right, or you ever logged out or whatever, that that

331
00:21:22,548 --> 00:21:25,888
data is completely garbage and useless.

332
00:21:26,258 --> 00:21:28,528
And, um, they don't do that.

333
00:21:29,328 --> 00:21:35,468
I think iCloud might have some kind of opt in encryption capabilities now,

334
00:21:35,538 --> 00:21:41,418
but your assumption, unless you are thoroughly proven otherwise, should be

335
00:21:41,418 --> 00:21:45,288
that every piece of data you store on any cloud server is completely unencrypted.

336
00:21:45,788 --> 00:21:50,838
At least for you, they might store it encrypted using their own keys, so that

337
00:21:50,838 --> 00:21:54,358
if a third party got physical access to the server, they wouldn't They might

338
00:21:54,358 --> 00:22:00,098
not get something, but they have access, which means somebody at the company

339
00:22:00,098 --> 00:22:03,328
has access, which means if that person is compromised, so does the attacker.

340
00:22:03,328 --> 00:22:07,208
So it's like encryption only matters if it's your encryption,

341
00:22:07,208 --> 00:22:08,398
if it's done client side.

342
00:22:08,408 --> 00:22:10,178
And I'm telling you, that's extremely rare.

343
00:22:10,178 --> 00:22:11,368
It's almost non existent.

344
00:22:12,568 --> 00:22:12,898
yeah.

345
00:22:13,258 --> 00:22:13,893
Um, so.

346
00:22:14,833 --> 00:22:19,893
If we pretend that we're not libertarians for a while here and we, we, uh, give

347
00:22:20,023 --> 00:22:26,451
these government regulations the benefits of, the benefit of the does the, uh,

348
00:22:26,621 --> 00:22:32,141
this interference and, and, uh, you, you, you talked about tiers, so, uh, the, the

349
00:22:32,341 --> 00:22:39,841
8 blue check on Twitter, for instance, uh, should the consumer assume that, uh,

350
00:22:39,931 --> 00:22:48,371
Their data is more private or more secure because they're not as much of the product

351
00:22:48,381 --> 00:22:50,091
since they're paying for the product.

352
00:22:51,221 --> 00:22:53,401
Assuming the answer no here, but anyway.

353
00:22:54,456 --> 00:22:56,706
Um, definitely not more secure.

354
00:22:56,786 --> 00:23:02,266
Um, you know, companies might have policies again, according to

355
00:23:02,266 --> 00:23:07,046
their terms and conditions that are like, if you pay us, we won't.

356
00:23:07,956 --> 00:23:10,666
Mine more of your data and sell it to advertisers.

357
00:23:11,256 --> 00:23:13,746
I'm actually not aware of any companies that say that.

358
00:23:13,756 --> 00:23:17,216
Usually what they say is, we won't show you advertisements.

359
00:23:17,849 --> 00:23:24,159
Right, they say like, your experience in X won't be filled with ads, they

360
00:23:24,159 --> 00:23:28,429
never said we won't collect your data and sell it to advertisers so that

361
00:23:28,429 --> 00:23:29,849
they can show it to you on Google.

362
00:23:30,447 --> 00:23:31,987
Okay, so you may

363
00:23:32,147 --> 00:23:32,397
to produce

364
00:23:32,477 --> 00:23:35,467
a better user experience, not better data protection.

365
00:23:36,157 --> 00:23:36,847
some more money.

366
00:23:37,732 --> 00:23:41,472
Yes, yeah, what they're saying is that we're going to annoy you.

367
00:23:41,767 --> 00:23:45,057
Until you give us money and then we'll stop annoying you.

368
00:23:45,647 --> 00:23:49,307
But the way that they collect and analyze your data hasn't changed a drop and

369
00:23:49,307 --> 00:23:50,627
they've never claimed that it would.

370
00:23:51,475 --> 00:23:54,865
Yeah, so you're still part of the human centipede.

371
00:23:54,865 --> 00:23:58,224
It's just that you don't know that you're part

372
00:23:58,410 --> 00:23:58,980
Just is

373
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:00,700
expresses itself differently.

374
00:24:00,700 --> 00:24:04,968
There's different consequences, but yeah, I mean, you use somebody else's computer,

375
00:24:04,978 --> 00:24:07,218
it's their house, it's their rules.

376
00:24:07,228 --> 00:24:09,678
You don't have a lot of say.

377
00:24:10,467 --> 00:24:12,517
To what extent does Nostr fix this?

378
00:24:12,577 --> 00:24:15,337
Like, um, are you a great believer in Nostr?

379
00:24:15,377 --> 00:24:19,727
And like, uh, how, how much, how much of these problems

380
00:24:19,727 --> 00:24:21,617
does a thing like Nostr fix?

381
00:24:22,244 --> 00:24:23,154
That's a great question.

382
00:24:23,184 --> 00:24:25,504
Nostr is a great example.

383
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:31,329
A decentralized network, in this case, one that is optimized

384
00:24:31,659 --> 00:24:34,389
for micro blogging, right?

385
00:24:34,419 --> 00:24:38,453
So, sharing, sharing news and consuming news.

386
00:24:39,413 --> 00:24:44,263
Nostr can be used, uh, in theory for other purposes, but it's

387
00:24:44,263 --> 00:24:47,383
really perfect for that use case.

388
00:24:47,887 --> 00:24:52,702
and so, you know, until now we've been broadly talking about cloud computing and

389
00:24:52,702 --> 00:24:56,672
that's everything from like a calculator that you use on somebody else's computer

390
00:24:57,022 --> 00:25:00,042
to a giant social network, right?

391
00:25:00,152 --> 00:25:02,062
Um, to a messaging app.

392
00:25:02,072 --> 00:25:05,312
Like, there's all sorts of things that run on third party

393
00:25:05,312 --> 00:25:07,432
servers, aka cloud computers.

394
00:25:07,964 --> 00:25:13,534
and social media, the sort of collaborative space is one type.

395
00:25:13,814 --> 00:25:19,434
It's like one vertical that we put into the whole, like, of human computing needs.

396
00:25:20,284 --> 00:25:25,604
Nostr is arguably, and is my contention, the best candidate.

397
00:25:26,134 --> 00:25:32,834
That we have ever seen for a viable, scalable, uh, decentralized

398
00:25:33,004 --> 00:25:35,177
social media, platform.

399
00:25:35,793 --> 00:25:39,845
prior attempts, maybe Mastodon was the best.

400
00:25:40,645 --> 00:25:44,555
Uh, Mastodon uses a federation model where anyone can spin up a server.

401
00:25:45,260 --> 00:25:49,240
And then people can create accounts on those servers, and then those servers

402
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,140
can connect to each other, such that everyone ends up with the same feed.

403
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,390
Nostr does not work like that.

404
00:25:55,913 --> 00:26:03,048
it is a completely novel approach to, sort of, Social media architecture, in that

405
00:26:03,148 --> 00:26:09,218
all the power is pushed to the clients, all the power is pushed to the edges

406
00:26:09,278 --> 00:26:15,150
of the network, there are no servers in Nostr, there are relays, and you can

407
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,990
those analogous to a server, I mean, they technically are a server, they're up

408
00:26:19,990 --> 00:26:25,120
running 24 7, 365, and they're performing back office operations, we'll call it.

409
00:26:25,910 --> 00:26:28,840
But there's no account structure related to those servers.

410
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:30,570
The servers are really stupid.

411
00:26:30,650 --> 00:26:31,660
They're very dumb.

412
00:26:31,660 --> 00:26:33,630
They just sort of serve a relaying purpose.

413
00:26:33,730 --> 00:26:37,850
They're there to store and relay information, and you can circumvent

414
00:26:37,860 --> 00:26:44,840
any one of those relays at any time, and as a User of Nostr, your goal to

415
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:50,950
increase your own censorship resistance and to ensure that you receive, uh,

416
00:26:51,180 --> 00:26:56,030
as much raw data, uncensored raw data as possible is to collect relays.

417
00:26:56,655 --> 00:27:01,467
Right, is to like, have as many relays as possible, to be broadcasting your

418
00:27:01,467 --> 00:27:06,617
message to as many corners of the world as possible, and to be receiving information

419
00:27:06,817 --> 00:27:11,507
from as many servers and relays as possible, and then it's up to your client,

420
00:27:12,077 --> 00:27:17,297
local device, to To, uh, de duplicate that information, right, to, if you get the

421
00:27:17,297 --> 00:27:20,977
same message from 30 different relays, you don't want to see it 30 times, so the

422
00:27:20,977 --> 00:27:26,397
client is responsible for making sure you only see it once, uh, your client is also

423
00:27:26,397 --> 00:27:31,677
responsible for deciding who receives your messages that you publish, and so long

424
00:27:31,677 --> 00:27:36,567
as there are sufficient people running quality relays, And that those relays

425
00:27:36,567 --> 00:27:43,646
are publicly, uh, available, Nostr will remain decentralized, uh, and so it seems

426
00:27:43,646 --> 00:27:49,239
to be kind of infinitely scalable, without compromising on its, on its promise.

427
00:27:49,349 --> 00:27:56,187
The challenge that Nostr is going to have, is spam is going to be a very

428
00:27:56,187 --> 00:28:00,377
serious challenge, um, as it is with all other social media platforms.

429
00:28:00,377 --> 00:28:02,077
And the way that X handles.

430
00:28:02,817 --> 00:28:09,157
Spam is through great central power through identity verification

431
00:28:09,167 --> 00:28:13,227
and, you know, canceling of accounts that it deems to be bots.

432
00:28:13,227 --> 00:28:17,057
And so there's this, like, it's this, it's this theory of endow

433
00:28:17,737 --> 00:28:23,617
the central party with unlimited power to fight spam and criminality.

434
00:28:24,097 --> 00:28:27,417
Um, and that doesn't scale very well, right?

435
00:28:27,417 --> 00:28:30,047
It can work to a degree, but it doesn't scale very well.

436
00:28:30,047 --> 00:28:30,747
And it has these.

437
00:28:31,372 --> 00:28:35,232
Uh, sort of unintended consequences of good things getting banned

438
00:28:35,232 --> 00:28:36,702
and censored, et cetera.

439
00:28:37,242 --> 00:28:43,482
Um, so Nostr's challenge and what remains to be determined about its survivability

440
00:28:44,072 --> 00:28:49,032
is when it becomes popular, which it is not, there's like this tiny little

441
00:28:49,052 --> 00:28:52,332
corner of weirdos in the world using Nostr right now, and I'm one of them,

442
00:28:52,342 --> 00:28:59,557
but it is not a popular platform and is therefore not worth Attacking for either

443
00:28:59,557 --> 00:29:06,407
an opportunistic solo, you know, uh, just troublemaker or for like a nation state.

444
00:29:06,487 --> 00:29:06,927
Okay.

445
00:29:07,027 --> 00:29:10,584
Like if a not even well resourced.

446
00:29:10,714 --> 00:29:17,203
Just if a motivated person or a group of people wanted to like, take down Nostr.

447
00:29:17,843 --> 00:29:19,583
They could do it with ease right now.

448
00:29:19,973 --> 00:29:21,583
Nostr is an infant.

449
00:29:22,503 --> 00:29:26,903
It is not capable of defending itself against any kind of

450
00:29:26,943 --> 00:29:31,363
coordinated denial of service attack against known relays, right?

451
00:29:31,928 --> 00:29:35,118
Like, I'm talking about somebody's weekend project here, okay?

452
00:29:35,118 --> 00:29:41,078
You could, in a weekend, take down the Nostr network simply by taking every

453
00:29:41,118 --> 00:29:47,988
known popular relay and just slamming it with a distributed denial of service

454
00:29:47,988 --> 00:29:50,858
attack, and the whole network would just cease to function, basically.

455
00:29:50,868 --> 00:29:51,998
Now, it would recover.

456
00:29:52,378 --> 00:29:55,808
Because it's anti fragile and would overcome that, but it is not

457
00:29:55,808 --> 00:29:59,508
capable of being a reliable source of news right now under attack.

458
00:30:00,625 --> 00:30:03,635
Yeah, we actually have an experience with that, me and Luke, from

459
00:30:04,295 --> 00:30:10,785
Madeira, we met the guy that makes Primal, it's one of the Nostr

460
00:30:10,785 --> 00:30:18,455
clients, so, at a party, and he approaches me and he said, dude, you're Knut, right?

461
00:30:18,495 --> 00:30:19,405
And I'm like, yeah.

462
00:30:19,855 --> 00:30:22,905
Uh, you broke, you broke my Nostr, you broke Nostr.

463
00:30:23,685 --> 00:30:25,295
I'm like, what are you talking about?

464
00:30:25,835 --> 00:30:27,115
Or you broke my client.

465
00:30:27,405 --> 00:30:32,845
And he is, uh, apparently, because we had the idea of just taking my first

466
00:30:32,855 --> 00:30:39,470
book and as a, as a txt file and just Putting it on Nostr as one single post.

467
00:30:39,930 --> 00:30:41,990
And I had a back and forth with Luke about it.

468
00:30:41,990 --> 00:30:42,980
Is this a good idea?

469
00:30:42,980 --> 00:30:44,030
Is this a stupid idea?

470
00:30:44,250 --> 00:30:45,380
But we decided to do it.

471
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,370
Fuck it, like, no one's probably done this before, so, like, let's see what happens.

472
00:30:50,790 --> 00:30:55,160
So I posted the entire, the entirety of Sovereignty Through Mathematics on Nostr.

473
00:30:56,970 --> 00:31:01,650
And apparently it broke his client, because the post is so big, and it got

474
00:31:01,950 --> 00:31:04,430
quite popular, so that slowed it down.

475
00:31:04,460 --> 00:31:09,538
So, yeah, I see, there are some concerns with these, uh, clients, and

476
00:31:09,548 --> 00:31:17,537
the relays, uh, That they have to be, be, uh, behind paywalls in the future.

477
00:31:17,747 --> 00:31:20,567
Uh, simply because of the fact of the, the spam prevention.

478
00:31:20,687 --> 00:31:23,837
Like that's the, that's the only solution to that that you, you'll

479
00:31:23,837 --> 00:31:25,247
have to pay for the service.

480
00:31:25,337 --> 00:31:27,287
Uh, otherwise you have the spam issue.

481
00:31:27,287 --> 00:31:33,047
You can fire up a million noster, private public key pairs, and, uh, just sap

482
00:31:33,137 --> 00:31:35,447
one of them from every other account.

483
00:31:35,942 --> 00:31:36,725
Yeah, ultimately,

484
00:31:37,212 --> 00:31:42,282
ultimately, as is the case with most systems, there will be a centralization

485
00:31:42,292 --> 00:31:48,296
trend in Nostr, and that centralization trend will come about through, Issues with

486
00:31:48,296 --> 00:31:53,296
user experience, issues with security, um, and there will arise companies that

487
00:31:53,296 --> 00:31:56,796
do paid relays and they work wonderfully so everyone moves to them and now that

488
00:31:56,796 --> 00:32:01,036
relay has a ton of power because 80 percent of network traffic is flowing

489
00:32:01,036 --> 00:32:04,346
through it and suddenly they come out with the terms and conditions and, you

490
00:32:04,346 --> 00:32:07,346
know, and again, this is a natural trend.

491
00:32:08,003 --> 00:32:14,503
however, truly decentralized systems with proper incentive structures can

492
00:32:14,783 --> 00:32:19,533
resist this trend, as we have seen with Bitcoin, but it's still trying.

493
00:32:20,143 --> 00:32:23,313
Bitcoin is still trying to centralize, right?

494
00:32:23,333 --> 00:32:28,285
Like, there are a lot of people trying to, push that agenda, and

495
00:32:28,295 --> 00:32:32,815
it's still to be determined if it withstands, um, and Nostr likewise.

496
00:32:32,875 --> 00:32:34,485
Nostr does not have as much.

497
00:32:35,025 --> 00:32:38,155
of a built in incentive, though, as Bitcoin does, right?

498
00:32:38,155 --> 00:32:42,705
Bitcoin's decentralization is based on a whole bunch of economic incentives,

499
00:32:43,315 --> 00:32:50,045
whereas Nostr's decentralization is, in part, built on best practice and

500
00:32:50,055 --> 00:32:55,835
sort of, um, just everyone playing ball, but we'll see, we'll see.

501
00:32:55,865 --> 00:32:58,295
I'm Nostr.

502
00:32:58,990 --> 00:33:01,810
But I'm not, uh, what was your original phrasing?

503
00:33:01,830 --> 00:33:03,030
A believer, right?

504
00:33:03,030 --> 00:33:05,210
I don't believe any, in anything.

505
00:33:05,210 --> 00:33:09,980
I, I, uh, I have convictions and I have, you know, scenarios and

506
00:33:09,980 --> 00:33:11,370
probabilities, but we'll see.

507
00:33:11,430 --> 00:33:19,460
I'm gonna do whatever I can from our angle to help, uh, Nostr to flourish as intended

508
00:33:19,490 --> 00:33:21,530
as a decentralized social media platform.

509
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,860
And Start9, to be honest, I Can help, right?

510
00:33:24,870 --> 00:33:26,900
That's where we come in.

511
00:33:26,910 --> 00:33:33,856
In fact, I mean, like, the whole reason we exist is to promote self hosting, which

512
00:33:33,866 --> 00:33:41,259
in turn promotes self sovereignty, um, and acts as the counterbalance To many of

513
00:33:41,259 --> 00:33:46,359
these centralization pressures that we see throughout society, people taking personal

514
00:33:46,359 --> 00:33:50,889
responsibility for their own lives is the counterbalance to authoritarianism.

515
00:33:50,909 --> 00:33:54,139
And oftentimes that's just too hard to do.

516
00:33:54,149 --> 00:33:57,839
It's too hard to take responsibility for everything because you don't know

517
00:33:57,839 --> 00:34:01,179
how to do it and you don't have time to learn it because you're a slave

518
00:34:01,179 --> 00:34:02,819
and you have to work 18 hours a day.

519
00:34:03,129 --> 00:34:03,629
And so.

520
00:34:04,674 --> 00:34:08,604
We are coming in and just trying to lower the barrier to entry,

521
00:34:08,604 --> 00:34:14,514
lower the bar, make it easier so that those who do care can opt out,

522
00:34:14,894 --> 00:34:16,654
take responsibility for themselves.

523
00:34:16,924 --> 00:34:21,869
And if enough people do that, the entire system becomes Resilient.

524
00:34:22,309 --> 00:34:26,339
Even if not everyone does it, you just need a critical mass of people to not

525
00:34:27,729 --> 00:34:33,659
join in, and the whole system gets stuck at a level of, uh, we'll call

526
00:34:33,659 --> 00:34:37,592
it acceptable, non freedom, right?

527
00:34:37,592 --> 00:34:38,872
Like, tiny bits,

528
00:34:39,993 --> 00:34:42,103
This is how we view Bitcoin as well.

529
00:34:42,113 --> 00:34:45,363
Like, uh, we don't need like 50%.

530
00:34:45,423 --> 00:34:47,763
That's not the threshold for a critical mass.

531
00:34:47,803 --> 00:34:52,303
The critical mass is probably a very small percentile of the population before

532
00:34:52,303 --> 00:34:57,446
the old systems just crumble, because you can't deny the power of this thing.

533
00:34:57,566 --> 00:34:59,276
Uh, that's what's so beautiful about it.

534
00:35:53,343 --> 00:35:56,123
let's, uh, explore a Start 9 then.

535
00:35:56,123 --> 00:36:01,623
What are, what is a Start 9, and, uh, how does it solve these problems?

536
00:36:01,623 --> 00:36:05,033
It takes, it gives the, the user, uh, the power back.

537
00:36:05,571 --> 00:36:08,431
But yeah, can you give us the TLDR on the start 9?

538
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:09,090
sure thing.

539
00:36:09,343 --> 00:36:12,686
So, Start9 is, is an organization, strictly speaking,

540
00:36:12,686 --> 00:36:14,416
it's a company, corporation.

541
00:36:14,756 --> 00:36:17,793
But in reality, it's a group of individuals who got together

542
00:36:17,793 --> 00:36:19,533
and decided to build something.

543
00:36:19,553 --> 00:36:23,313
And a corporate structure is a Reasonable way to do that, uh, to,

544
00:36:23,313 --> 00:36:27,403
to garner resources and make sure everyone gets compensated appropriately

545
00:36:27,403 --> 00:36:28,633
and build something together.

546
00:36:28,763 --> 00:36:31,293
Uh, there are other approaches, but this was right for us.

547
00:36:31,943 --> 00:36:38,660
So, what Start9 does is our primary, activity is to build StartOS.

548
00:36:39,890 --> 00:36:46,418
This is a operating system, uh, Linux based, that, uh, is different from

549
00:36:46,498 --> 00:36:51,068
all other operating systems, uh, in ex in existence, uh, at least to

550
00:36:51,068 --> 00:36:55,488
date, in one very meaningful way.

551
00:36:56,778 --> 00:37:04,298
If you look at macOS, Windows, all your Linux distros, from Debian to Ubuntu to

552
00:37:04,308 --> 00:37:10,131
Fedora to PopOS, and you look at Android and iOS, these are mobile operating

553
00:37:10,131 --> 00:37:16,645
systems, uh, Graphene, like what I use, all of these operating systems have

554
00:37:16,655 --> 00:37:21,615
user interfaces, like the way that users are supposed to interact with them.

555
00:37:21,615 --> 00:37:24,435
Not necessarily other computers or developers, but

556
00:37:24,445 --> 00:37:26,415
normal consumers and users.

557
00:37:27,175 --> 00:37:31,015
They have user interfaces that are designed to administer, to

558
00:37:31,015 --> 00:37:37,135
empower you, the individual, to administer that device as a client.

559
00:37:37,528 --> 00:37:37,948
Okay?

560
00:37:38,408 --> 00:37:40,728
Client is a very particular word here.

561
00:37:41,378 --> 00:37:43,818
Those devices are clients, a.

562
00:37:43,818 --> 00:37:44,078
k.

563
00:37:44,078 --> 00:37:44,088
a.

564
00:37:45,088 --> 00:37:46,078
remote controls.

565
00:37:46,763 --> 00:37:50,653
You can think of clients as remote controls.

566
00:37:51,083 --> 00:37:57,073
They do more than just remote control, but that is arguably their primary function,

567
00:37:57,633 --> 00:38:04,273
is to be a remote control for one or more servers located behind the scenes.

568
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,793
And so your Android phone, your iOS phone, your MacBook, your Linux

569
00:38:09,793 --> 00:38:14,763
laptop, your Windows desktop, these are all primarily remote controls.

570
00:38:15,488 --> 00:38:18,678
And the operating systems that are installed on these computers,

571
00:38:19,098 --> 00:38:22,198
enable you to use that remote control effectively, right?

572
00:38:22,198 --> 00:38:25,078
They provide you with a GUI, with a bunch of buttons, and all these

573
00:38:25,088 --> 00:38:29,118
things that make it super easy for you to use this remote control.

574
00:38:29,501 --> 00:38:33,231
Those remote controls, these clients, is the more kind of industry term

575
00:38:33,231 --> 00:38:38,320
for them, clients, These are remotely controlling servers, and in almost

576
00:38:38,330 --> 00:38:41,740
all cases, as is the case with cloud computing, these servers are not yours.

577
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,950
So all everyone is doing is walking around with remote controls that operate

578
00:38:46,810 --> 00:38:50,050
somebody else's computer, which has all the consequences we discussed.

579
00:38:51,116 --> 00:38:58,393
What StartOS is, is arguably the first ever Mass market operating system that

580
00:38:58,393 --> 00:39:03,983
is designed purposefully, intentionally for you, a normal user of computers,

581
00:39:03,993 --> 00:39:10,303
not a developer, not a technical person to administer a server, not a client.

582
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:16,070
Previously, if you wanted to administer a server, You had to go on the command line.

583
00:39:16,500 --> 00:39:18,830
You couldn't use the graphical interface.

584
00:39:18,870 --> 00:39:20,510
You had to go under the hood.

585
00:39:20,530 --> 00:39:24,920
You had to pop the hood of the car, get on the Linux command line or in the Mac

586
00:39:25,070 --> 00:39:29,090
terminal and execute commands, right?

587
00:39:29,410 --> 00:39:34,070
And this is a skillset that is commonly known as systems administration, right?

588
00:39:34,100 --> 00:39:39,470
Linux sysadmins have the ability to get on a command line and run

589
00:39:39,550 --> 00:39:43,580
server software, server applications, and then connect to those.

590
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,770
Applications from their remote controls.

591
00:39:47,260 --> 00:39:49,160
Almost nobody else has the ability to do this.

592
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,050
You either are a Linux sysadmin.

593
00:39:51,378 --> 00:39:55,658
And DevOps Engineer is another skill set that overlaps with,

594
00:39:55,798 --> 00:39:57,718
with Linux Systems Administration.

595
00:39:58,308 --> 00:40:04,418
You either have those skills and the time and patience to use them, because

596
00:40:04,448 --> 00:40:06,228
just like cooking, it takes a while.

597
00:40:06,238 --> 00:40:09,375
It's not easy, even if you have the skills, or you don't.

598
00:40:09,535 --> 00:40:12,591
And if you had those skills, you could do this, but nobody does.

599
00:40:12,771 --> 00:40:15,881
The vast majority of the human population does not have the skill set

600
00:40:16,181 --> 00:40:18,441
or the time or the energy to do it.

601
00:40:19,361 --> 00:40:21,091
to run their own servers.

602
00:40:21,591 --> 00:40:26,461
And the main reason for that was because there has never been an operating

603
00:40:26,461 --> 00:40:34,611
system that made it simple enough, clear enough, easy enough for a normal computer

604
00:40:34,611 --> 00:40:36,951
literate person to administer a server.

605
00:40:37,841 --> 00:40:41,831
So that's what we took on because we thought, recognized, that that was

606
00:40:41,841 --> 00:40:47,481
the THE elephant in the room, that was THE missing piece of the puzzle that

607
00:40:47,481 --> 00:40:54,105
was preventing the practice of self hosting, which we believe is necessary

608
00:40:54,608 --> 00:41:00,218
for the decentralization and therefore continued survival and freedom of

609
00:41:00,218 --> 00:41:02,533
the digital infrastructure of earth.

610
00:41:02,983 --> 00:41:05,043
We don't want centralized computing systems.

611
00:41:05,043 --> 00:41:08,943
We want decentralized computing systems, and we can talk about why that's super

612
00:41:08,943 --> 00:41:12,133
important, but I'm assuming that a lot of people listening to this podcast

613
00:41:12,153 --> 00:41:16,253
already agree with that statement that decentralized systems are preferable

614
00:41:16,253 --> 00:41:20,553
to centralized for all the problems we see with the centralization of power.

615
00:41:21,035 --> 00:41:24,145
And in order for systems, computer systems to be decentralized,

616
00:41:24,735 --> 00:41:26,435
people must run their own servers.

617
00:41:26,855 --> 00:41:27,705
There's no way around this.

618
00:41:28,135 --> 00:41:31,025
There's no other special magic solution.

619
00:41:31,035 --> 00:41:33,915
It's like if you want decentralized farming, everyone needs to farm.

620
00:41:34,585 --> 00:41:37,115
Or not everyone, right, but a lot of people need to farm.

621
00:41:37,435 --> 00:41:39,215
One person farms, it's centralized.

622
00:41:39,585 --> 00:41:41,195
If everyone's farming, it's decentralized.

623
00:41:41,215 --> 00:41:42,605
It's really that simple.

624
00:41:43,215 --> 00:41:47,300
And if you want decentralized Computing systems, if you want a decentralized

625
00:41:47,310 --> 00:41:51,210
internet, if you want an information society that isn't bottlenecked and

626
00:41:51,210 --> 00:41:54,860
choked by a single central authority, people have to run their own servers.

627
00:41:54,860 --> 00:41:56,020
There's no other solution.

628
00:41:56,780 --> 00:42:00,650
Some people have proposed alternative solutions, namely in the phrase,

629
00:42:00,770 --> 00:42:03,820
the gimmick phrase, of serverless.

630
00:42:04,810 --> 00:42:08,570
Okay, serverless is something that people say usually when

631
00:42:08,570 --> 00:42:09,680
they're trying to raise money.

632
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,510
Serverless means clients talking to clients.

633
00:42:13,510 --> 00:42:14,580
There are no servers.

634
00:42:14,590 --> 00:42:17,250
Let's just get rid of the servers and create a completely peer

635
00:42:17,250 --> 00:42:18,810
to peer decentralized system.

636
00:42:19,510 --> 00:42:20,400
You can't do it.

637
00:42:20,530 --> 00:42:21,970
Servers are necessary.

638
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,860
Servers are the thing that runs all the time.

639
00:42:25,860 --> 00:42:27,080
They need to be super powerful.

640
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:28,340
They won't fit in your pocket.

641
00:42:28,670 --> 00:42:30,120
If you drive through a tunnel.

642
00:42:30,545 --> 00:42:30,875
Right?

643
00:42:31,025 --> 00:42:32,535
Your cell signal goes out.

644
00:42:32,535 --> 00:42:34,205
It's no longer functioning as a server.

645
00:42:34,205 --> 00:42:41,845
So like servers need to be static, powerful, 24 7 on, 24 7 connected.

646
00:42:42,505 --> 00:42:44,765
They require a totally different, they're running totally

647
00:42:44,765 --> 00:42:46,595
different types of applications.

648
00:42:46,825 --> 00:42:51,645
So this idea of like combining what servers do into clients is a pipe dream.

649
00:42:52,295 --> 00:42:55,615
Servers have a permanent place in the future of computing.

650
00:42:56,235 --> 00:43:00,675
And once you admit that, even for Nostr, relays, and Bitcoin nodes, these are

651
00:43:00,935 --> 00:43:05,805
servers, don't run a Bitcoin node on your phone, that's not a good idea, right,

652
00:43:06,465 --> 00:43:10,355
that's come up a few times over the years, and it's just like, no, there's no reason

653
00:43:10,355 --> 00:43:15,435
to do that, it's not a good idea, so once you admit that servers are part of the

654
00:43:15,435 --> 00:43:23,200
permanent architecture, computers, you're You come to the conclusion that we need

655
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:24,760
people to be running their own servers.

656
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:26,680
Otherwise, it's a totally centralized system.

657
00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:28,960
And why weren't people running their own servers?

658
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:30,170
Because they couldn't.

659
00:43:30,190 --> 00:43:31,740
Because it's too technically difficult.

660
00:43:32,130 --> 00:43:33,580
Why is it too technically difficult?

661
00:43:33,610 --> 00:43:36,560
Because there's no operating system in existence that makes it easy.

662
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:38,440
Let's build the operating system.

663
00:43:38,650 --> 00:43:39,510
That was our logic.

664
00:43:40,473 --> 00:43:41,153
And so we did.

665
00:43:41,663 --> 00:43:42,243
We built it.

666
00:43:42,413 --> 00:43:43,043
We launched it.

667
00:43:43,303 --> 00:43:45,263
And we've been iterating it for almost four years now.

668
00:43:45,598 --> 00:43:50,698
And it has undergone massive, massive changes during those four years.

669
00:43:50,698 --> 00:43:54,498
We've essentially rewritten it three times now, uh, from

670
00:43:54,498 --> 00:43:56,018
scratch, not just iterated it.

671
00:43:56,018 --> 00:44:00,211
Like, we've had to start over because we were figuring it out as we went.

672
00:44:00,241 --> 00:44:01,611
Nobody's ever done this before.

673
00:44:02,211 --> 00:44:05,051
So, so we were like breaking ground here.

674
00:44:05,501 --> 00:44:08,111
And a lot of what we learned along the way.

675
00:44:08,846 --> 00:44:15,426
was how very different a server OS is from a client OS.

676
00:44:15,706 --> 00:44:17,666
They're like very different animals.

677
00:44:18,370 --> 00:44:22,573
all the way from how it functions under the hood to the

678
00:44:22,573 --> 00:44:24,173
way, to the user experience.

679
00:44:24,173 --> 00:44:30,013
You can't just take Mac OS, copy it and be like, okay, now it's a server OS.

680
00:44:30,043 --> 00:44:30,643
It's like, no, no, no.

681
00:44:30,643 --> 00:44:35,328
The users are You're, you're, you're actually making it worse for people

682
00:44:35,448 --> 00:44:40,288
because what you're making them think is that a server and a client are

683
00:44:40,288 --> 00:44:43,368
super similar because the operating system makes them look super similar.

684
00:44:43,368 --> 00:44:48,818
Like, imagine if iOS, iOS was the first, like, you know, mobile OS.

685
00:44:49,988 --> 00:44:55,478
Imagine if Apple had just taken Mac OS and shrunk the screen size.

686
00:44:56,206 --> 00:45:01,876
It wouldn't have worked well, because a mobile OS is different,

687
00:45:02,006 --> 00:45:06,586
it is a fundamentally different animal, both in function and in

688
00:45:06,596 --> 00:45:09,446
experience, than a desktop OS.

689
00:45:10,896 --> 00:45:14,886
And Windows, at one point, tried to create a unified one.

690
00:45:14,896 --> 00:45:16,486
Do you remember that?

691
00:45:16,496 --> 00:45:17,856
The Windows Phone?

692
00:45:18,496 --> 00:45:21,626
Where they basically just tried to take their desktop operating system

693
00:45:21,626 --> 00:45:25,256
and crunch it down to mobile and be like, Oh, it's all just the same.

694
00:45:25,826 --> 00:45:28,846
It's a nice idea, but it wasn't good.

695
00:45:29,266 --> 00:45:29,566
Right?

696
00:45:29,576 --> 00:45:31,016
The mobile OS sucked.

697
00:45:31,576 --> 00:45:37,606
Um, and so, for the same reasons, you can't just make a server OS

698
00:45:38,036 --> 00:45:40,046
look and feel like some desktop OS.

699
00:45:40,106 --> 00:45:40,906
They are different.

700
00:45:40,946 --> 00:45:46,726
And we had to learn the hard way what a lot of those differences were by

701
00:45:46,786 --> 00:45:50,915
putting it into the hands of people, And seeing where they got confused and

702
00:45:50,915 --> 00:45:54,585
where they got tripped up and where it broke, um, and then gradually being

703
00:45:54,585 --> 00:45:57,245
like, crap, our abstractions are wrong.

704
00:45:57,315 --> 00:45:58,765
Our approach is wrong.

705
00:45:59,035 --> 00:46:01,505
Well, good thing we're still young and nobody knows about us.

706
00:46:01,505 --> 00:46:06,165
We can just blow it up and start over again and we won't get, um,

707
00:46:06,775 --> 00:46:09,015
it won't destroy us as a company.

708
00:46:09,125 --> 00:46:11,765
And so, anyway, uh, that's what we do.

709
00:46:12,421 --> 00:46:15,101
we also sell devices, servers.

710
00:46:15,751 --> 00:46:20,541
With our operating system, uh, pre installed for people who don't want

711
00:46:20,541 --> 00:46:25,131
to, uh, go through the DIY approach of getting their own hardware and

712
00:46:25,131 --> 00:46:26,691
downloading it and installing it.

713
00:46:27,011 --> 00:46:28,851
So essentially we're selling convenience, right?

714
00:46:28,861 --> 00:46:31,911
The operating system is licensed under MIT.

715
00:46:31,911 --> 00:46:34,351
It's about as free as it can possibly be.

716
00:46:34,351 --> 00:46:36,631
It doesn't belong to us in any way, shape or form.

717
00:46:37,261 --> 00:46:41,591
Um, but we know people will pay, uh, for community.

718
00:46:42,046 --> 00:46:44,786
And convenience and customer support.

719
00:46:45,026 --> 00:46:47,416
And so that's really what we do as a company.

720
00:46:47,416 --> 00:46:49,776
We build a free operating system, then we give it away.

721
00:46:50,536 --> 00:46:53,976
Uh, and then we, we sell devices with it pre installed and support

722
00:46:53,976 --> 00:46:56,056
it with our, with our people.

723
00:46:56,456 --> 00:46:59,756
And, um, we think that's a very viable and scalable business model, to be honest.

724
00:47:00,655 --> 00:47:01,321
Fantastic.

725
00:47:01,511 --> 00:47:04,181
I love a thing you said in the, in the very beginning of

726
00:47:04,181 --> 00:47:05,381
the answer to that question.

727
00:47:05,581 --> 00:47:09,211
And that was that you're a company, and that's just one way for a

728
00:47:09,211 --> 00:47:11,051
group of people to do stuff.

729
00:47:11,311 --> 00:47:16,281
That's like a libertarian disclaimer that this is something we did because

730
00:47:16,341 --> 00:47:19,461
this is how, how nation states work.

731
00:47:19,541 --> 00:47:20,801
You need to do this to do that.

732
00:47:21,021 --> 00:47:26,548
So, because it reminds me of like, uh, ideas we have about, uh, uh, uh, What a

733
00:47:26,548 --> 00:47:31,728
company looks like on a Bitcoin standard or a post hyperbitcoinization or whatever

734
00:47:32,018 --> 00:47:37,578
you may call it, like even now for a Bitcoin company, it doesn't really have

735
00:47:37,608 --> 00:47:43,768
to be more than a telegram group or I would say the equivalent on a start

736
00:47:43,798 --> 00:47:48,518
nine rather than a centralized telegram group or a Nostr group or whatever.

737
00:47:48,931 --> 00:47:52,501
So it's just a group of people being able to communicate and

738
00:47:52,511 --> 00:47:54,681
being able to pay one another.

739
00:47:54,791 --> 00:47:57,631
And all you need for that is communication and Bitcoin, right?

740
00:47:57,631 --> 00:47:58,921
You don't need anything else.

741
00:47:58,931 --> 00:48:02,961
You don't really need permission and you don't really need the company structure.

742
00:48:03,741 --> 00:48:04,721
Well, it depends.

743
00:48:04,921 --> 00:48:07,531
Uh, it depends on how big you want that group to grow.

744
00:48:07,795 --> 00:48:10,615
you know, if it's a few people working on something and sending each other

745
00:48:10,635 --> 00:48:14,115
bitcoin every once in a while, you can probably fly under the radar.

746
00:48:14,575 --> 00:48:20,451
But, um, you know, if you're looking to capitalize, like, raise money, uh,

747
00:48:20,741 --> 00:48:25,521
through people who want to contribute, yes, you can accept donations, but,

748
00:48:25,641 --> 00:48:30,331
um, it's often Much more lucrative to accept investments because those

749
00:48:30,331 --> 00:48:32,131
people are expecting a return, right?

750
00:48:32,181 --> 00:48:34,791
So you can get a lot more donations, essentially, if you

751
00:48:34,791 --> 00:48:36,181
promise to give something back.

752
00:48:36,608 --> 00:48:39,938
and that all requires, that all has legal structure to it.

753
00:48:40,251 --> 00:48:44,941
you know, in the US, if I were to, if Start9 wasn't a company, and

754
00:48:44,991 --> 00:48:49,446
ignore the fundraising aspect of it, if we weren't a company, And

755
00:48:49,446 --> 00:48:51,156
we, everyone needed to get paid.

756
00:48:51,656 --> 00:48:53,876
At some point, we're breaking the law.

757
00:48:53,886 --> 00:48:55,426
We are, we are breaking the law.

758
00:48:55,426 --> 00:49:00,796
You're like, not allowed to just hire people indefinitely to, to work,

759
00:49:01,091 --> 00:49:05,300
without, like, classifying them as an employee and paying for health benefits.

760
00:49:05,300 --> 00:49:10,290
And there's like, you know, You know, you can get in trouble due to the nature of

761
00:49:10,290 --> 00:49:11,980
these, these systems that we've built.

762
00:49:12,050 --> 00:49:14,340
And I know that sounds a little petty, like, ooh, get

763
00:49:14,340 --> 00:49:15,490
in trouble, but that's real.

764
00:49:15,500 --> 00:49:16,990
That's real consequences, right?

765
00:49:17,010 --> 00:49:18,430
Like, I don't want to go to jail.

766
00:49:18,430 --> 00:49:21,910
I don't want to be fined, uh, into bankruptcy.

767
00:49:21,910 --> 00:49:26,710
Like, you know, you have to live within the, the game, uh, that's being

768
00:49:26,710 --> 00:49:28,940
played while trying to change the game.

769
00:49:28,940 --> 00:49:32,660
But in, you know, it's, uh, it's hard.

770
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:33,820
We, we debated.

771
00:49:33,970 --> 00:49:34,950
Going the like.

772
00:49:36,275 --> 00:49:38,605
official charitable route.

773
00:49:39,035 --> 00:49:41,395
Um, but even that's a filing.

774
00:49:41,595 --> 00:49:45,225
That's still a 501c3 corporate entity.

775
00:49:45,225 --> 00:49:46,505
It's just a different type.

776
00:49:46,505 --> 00:49:50,975
It's like doing nothing, filing nothing, just living, breathing,

777
00:49:50,975 --> 00:49:54,605
and doing the things you want to do is like kind of not allowed.

778
00:49:54,915 --> 00:49:57,315
past a certain scale, you just get in trouble.

779
00:49:57,741 --> 00:49:58,411
Absolutely.

780
00:49:58,411 --> 00:50:01,751
But if there was a question in there, it's sort of like, do you

781
00:50:01,781 --> 00:50:03,661
see this as a possible future?

782
00:50:03,661 --> 00:50:09,096
I know it's hard right now because we still live in these Um, all the

783
00:50:09,166 --> 00:50:12,706
dinosaur institution run nations.

784
00:50:12,906 --> 00:50:18,106
Uh, but like, I mean, we are building these freedom tools, uh, in order

785
00:50:18,106 --> 00:50:20,646
to get humanity to a better state.

786
00:50:20,686 --> 00:50:22,736
As you said in the beginning for our kids, right?

787
00:50:22,806 --> 00:50:27,936
To live in a world where, where you have more freedoms and more, more

788
00:50:27,946 --> 00:50:29,476
options and more opportunities.

789
00:50:29,476 --> 00:50:36,031
And so, so do you foresee like these, Legal structures not being roadblocks

790
00:50:36,631 --> 00:50:41,141
to as big an extent as they are today.

791
00:50:41,541 --> 00:50:43,191
Convoluted sentence, but yeah.

792
00:52:00,082 --> 00:52:01,362
No, I understand completely.

793
00:52:01,412 --> 00:52:05,766
I'm, um,  I'm hopeful on various timelines.

794
00:52:06,666 --> 00:52:10,041
So the answer to your question is, On what timeline?

795
00:52:10,871 --> 00:52:14,571
Uh, I'm not at all optimistic that we'll see anything close to what you

796
00:52:14,571 --> 00:52:17,744
described, in the next two decades.

797
00:52:18,277 --> 00:52:23,647
I'm cautiously optimistic that we could see some degree of meaningful

798
00:52:24,087 --> 00:52:27,107
reform slash political restructuring.

799
00:52:27,452 --> 00:52:28,542
In my lifetime.

800
00:52:30,449 --> 00:52:34,779
these systems take time to adjust.

801
00:52:34,779 --> 00:52:41,439
And this is something that a lot of Bitcoiners and, you know, um, fellow

802
00:52:41,439 --> 00:52:47,249
freedom fighters and I disagree on is the timeline for a lot of our ambitions.

803
00:52:47,349 --> 00:52:52,414
Um, I largely buy into the thesis, the underlying thesis,

804
00:52:52,914 --> 00:52:54,204
of the sovereign individual.

805
00:52:54,837 --> 00:52:57,677
I don't know if you've read that, but I largely agree with their

806
00:52:58,092 --> 00:52:59,352
Have, I love it.

807
00:52:59,562 --> 00:53:02,702
We, uh, we agree with it totally too.

808
00:53:02,732 --> 00:53:09,002
I'm speaking for Luke here, but like, I love that book and I absolutely buy that.

809
00:53:09,602 --> 00:53:10,787
That's where we're headed.

810
00:53:11,267 --> 00:53:14,557
So the question is, is, you know, what does that timeline look like?

811
00:53:14,757 --> 00:53:20,537
And even that book admits That the process is very hazy, right?

812
00:53:20,537 --> 00:53:27,347
Like, Sovereign Individual takes an extreme macro view of political

813
00:53:27,347 --> 00:53:29,437
history and technological history.

814
00:53:30,137 --> 00:53:34,357
It does not pretend to predict specific events along the way.

815
00:53:34,897 --> 00:53:40,667
It did, in fact, predict some specific events, but it also, in so

816
00:53:40,667 --> 00:53:42,427
doing, was like, this is a process.

817
00:53:42,787 --> 00:53:43,837
May or may not happen.

818
00:53:43,837 --> 00:53:50,327
It's based on decisions and chance and, you know, unforeseen new technologies.

819
00:53:51,067 --> 00:53:55,747
And so I believe in where we're going.

820
00:53:55,947 --> 00:53:57,087
Like I am convinced.

821
00:53:57,927 --> 00:54:04,437
That we are gonna win, or that we have a really good shot at winning.

822
00:54:04,567 --> 00:54:10,087
However, I don't know how long it's going to take.

823
00:54:10,387 --> 00:54:14,077
I think it's going to take longer than most in my circles do,

824
00:54:14,857 --> 00:54:19,477
and we don't know how turbulent the transition is going to be.

825
00:54:20,757 --> 00:54:24,167
I think there's so many factors at play that trying to predict the

826
00:54:24,167 --> 00:54:26,317
degree of turbulence is kind of.

827
00:54:27,097 --> 00:54:29,527
Um, an effort in futility.

828
00:54:30,107 --> 00:54:35,147
I think it's best to maybe be prepared for various scenarios and have contingency

829
00:54:35,147 --> 00:54:40,037
plans and not buy in too much to a single scenario because then you'll be taken

830
00:54:40,037 --> 00:54:42,177
by surprise when it doesn't come true.

831
00:54:43,137 --> 00:54:47,997
Um, so to try to keep the highest level picture in mind as possible and then be

832
00:54:47,997 --> 00:54:56,532
flexible, uh, in terms of the path and if we end up getting Where we want to be much

833
00:54:56,542 --> 00:55:03,362
faster than I have kind of internally, uh, predicted, and it's super smooth

834
00:55:03,362 --> 00:55:07,732
and the state just folds and hands over power and all the rest, then I will be

835
00:55:07,742 --> 00:55:13,232
very happy, and I won't complain at all, but I'm definitely not expecting that.

836
00:55:13,232 --> 00:55:18,522
I'm expecting a prolonged, gritty guerrilla war over the next century.

837
00:55:19,621 --> 00:55:25,151
where many, many people will fall through the cracks and suffer, um, and others

838
00:55:25,151 --> 00:55:31,051
will sell out and flourish, and we'll just kind of see where the, you know,

839
00:55:31,111 --> 00:55:35,581
when all the dust settles, um, who's still standing, and I think it'll be us.

840
00:55:35,581 --> 00:55:44,091
Now, that said, I also, due to my s Study of history and my understanding

841
00:55:44,091 --> 00:55:47,591
of just kind of philosophy and to be honest, even metaphysics.

842
00:55:48,221 --> 00:55:49,181
I don't think it ever ends.

843
00:55:49,691 --> 00:55:49,911
Right?

844
00:55:49,911 --> 00:55:54,111
I believe that all of existence and human history in particular are

845
00:55:54,471 --> 00:55:58,921
cyclical in nature and that it's one giant never ending spiral with the

846
00:55:59,011 --> 00:56:01,491
rhythm repeating itself to infinity.

847
00:56:02,111 --> 00:56:04,116
And that as we quote, win, win.

848
00:56:04,666 --> 00:56:09,936
There will emerge some new form of oppression and totalitarianism that will

849
00:56:09,936 --> 00:56:14,686
be the next, that will mark the next cycle of freedom fighters and all the rest.

850
00:56:14,776 --> 00:56:19,855
So, I don't pretend that there's like, Some permanent fix coming

851
00:56:19,915 --> 00:56:23,335
where all of humanity will flourish for the end till the end of time.

852
00:56:24,119 --> 00:56:30,529
I just am trying to play my role in this cycle to the best that I perceive it

853
00:56:30,529 --> 00:56:38,029
and can in hopes that maybe my children or their children will experience one

854
00:56:38,069 --> 00:56:45,434
of those rare moments in history of Prosperity and, and, and human flourishing

855
00:56:45,634 --> 00:56:50,684
and maybe even get us off this planet and, and take it to the, to the stars.

856
00:56:50,684 --> 00:56:54,154
And it's like, so I'm not, again, it depends on your timeline.

857
00:56:54,214 --> 00:56:59,954
I'm not optimistic or pessimistic at the ultimate timeline because nature is nature

858
00:57:00,004 --> 00:57:02,904
and there is no, it just is what it is.

859
00:57:03,564 --> 00:57:05,644
On a short time, I'm extremely pessimistic.

860
00:57:06,124 --> 00:57:11,854
I think that these people who are currently in power are going to

861
00:57:12,544 --> 00:57:15,164
try to blow the house up before they let anybody else in it.

862
00:57:15,743 --> 00:57:19,823
and then the medium term gets really gray really fast, and I'm just trying to do

863
00:57:19,823 --> 00:57:24,323
my best to make it as good as possible and to make the period of turbulence

864
00:57:24,323 --> 00:57:26,173
and darkness as short as possible.

865
00:57:26,773 --> 00:57:29,863
Have you read a book by Michael Malice called the white pill?

866
00:57:31,853 --> 00:57:37,763
Because this reminds me of that because it's basically the history of the Soviet

867
00:57:37,793 --> 00:57:45,363
Union and the East Block and how quickly it just disappeared and everyone went to

868
00:57:45,363 --> 00:57:49,463
bed one day and everyone was a communist and they woke up the next day and no one

869
00:57:49,463 --> 00:57:55,178
was a communist and how no one expected that, like, and that there are Examples

870
00:57:55,178 --> 00:58:01,078
in history of, you know, the good guys just winning at a certain point.

871
00:58:01,088 --> 00:58:04,841
Like when, when it looks the bleakest,

872
00:58:05,189 --> 00:58:05,889
so let me ask you something.

873
00:58:06,769 --> 00:58:09,069
Soviet bloc just up and vanished, right?

874
00:58:10,429 --> 00:58:16,869
Well, my understanding of how the world functions is not that there was this all

875
00:58:16,879 --> 00:58:25,169
powerful Soviet communist government that just sort of went bankrupt one day, and

876
00:58:25,169 --> 00:58:29,679
that there isn't this counterforce in the United States that is an all powerful

877
00:58:29,949 --> 00:58:34,789
anti communist government that just sort of won overnight in that Cold War.

878
00:58:35,089 --> 00:58:38,964
My understanding of it is that underneath both of those countries, is

879
00:58:38,964 --> 00:58:44,614
an extremely powerful set of financiers that were funding both sides of that

880
00:58:44,614 --> 00:58:52,674
war in order to keep everyone afraid and increase, you know, totalitarian

881
00:58:52,694 --> 00:58:57,804
practices and bankrupt both countries by printing infinite money on both sides.

882
00:58:58,574 --> 00:59:04,659
And so my view of the collapse of the Soviet Union, Taking a step back from it

883
00:59:05,479 --> 00:59:11,622
is that it was actually kind of part of a larger strategy of like, if you want

884
00:59:11,622 --> 00:59:13,832
to implement global socialism, right?

885
00:59:13,832 --> 00:59:21,032
If you want a global government that has a global central bank that can

886
00:59:21,042 --> 00:59:28,332
print infinite money and effectively enslave through a digital feudalism

887
00:59:28,342 --> 00:59:33,657
the entire world, It would be a really good idea to get rid of the

888
00:59:33,847 --> 00:59:37,717
boogeyman in the room called communism, because it's just distasteful.

889
00:59:37,727 --> 00:59:39,337
Nobody likes that word, right?

890
00:59:39,337 --> 00:59:42,707
Effectively, what you're trying to implement is global socialism

891
00:59:42,707 --> 00:59:46,827
slash communism, but better to let everyone think communism

892
00:59:46,827 --> 00:59:48,557
died and is no longer a threat.

893
00:59:48,567 --> 00:59:49,497
Like, oh, it's gone.

894
00:59:49,507 --> 00:59:50,077
It's gone.

895
00:59:50,227 --> 00:59:56,081
So all these socialist, kind of practices that the West is now indulging in are

896
00:59:56,081 --> 00:59:58,041
perfectly fine because it's not communism.

897
00:59:58,041 --> 00:59:59,261
Communism died, remember?

898
01:00:00,016 --> 01:00:06,517
So I view it as like, it's still going on, like we're, we are actively

899
01:00:06,527 --> 01:00:14,347
daily fighting the aggressive emergence of a global communist order.

900
01:00:14,986 --> 01:00:18,746
Yeah, if the, if that was a question, like, um, I have

901
01:00:18,746 --> 01:00:20,066
a slightly different view.

902
01:00:20,266 --> 01:00:26,096
I don't think this is being deliberately planned out that way and that there's

903
01:00:26,116 --> 01:00:28,566
some grand master schemer somewhere.

904
01:00:29,026 --> 01:00:34,306
I just think that the very notion of Central banks existing and the system

905
01:00:34,306 --> 01:00:39,796
we live in existing sort of makes that happen regardless of what anyone wants.

906
01:00:40,156 --> 01:00:42,210
It leads to global socialism

907
01:00:42,416 --> 01:00:44,586
do you think the central bankers understand that?

908
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:48,230
Or are they naive to the consequences of their own policies?

909
01:00:48,591 --> 01:00:50,961
I think that both are true, can be true.

910
01:00:50,961 --> 01:00:53,961
I don't think there's Mutual, they are mutually exclusive.

911
01:00:53,961 --> 01:00:57,231
I don't think that the founders of the Federal Reserve.

912
01:00:57,636 --> 01:01:00,216
Could foresee what would happen a hundred years later.

913
01:01:00,346 --> 01:01:04,236
I think they were, you know, high time preference people who just wanted

914
01:01:04,236 --> 01:01:06,206
to print money to enrich themselves.

915
01:01:06,236 --> 01:01:11,006
I don't think they had this, you know, totalitarian, Oh, what, our

916
01:01:11,006 --> 01:01:14,316
children will live in this totalitarian state and it would be awesome.

917
01:01:14,346 --> 01:01:17,386
I don't think they have that plan in mind when they started the thing.

918
01:01:17,386 --> 01:01:20,326
It's just what happens when you run that experiment for a long time.

919
01:01:21,176 --> 01:01:24,956
It's a very valid point and I don't think that, maybe with a few

920
01:01:24,956 --> 01:01:30,266
exceptions, that anyone involved with founding or perpetuating the

921
01:01:30,266 --> 01:01:35,621
Federal Reserve and essentially central banking Uh, cartel and system.

922
01:01:36,141 --> 01:01:41,271
We're necessarily like doing this and saying let's enslave humanity.

923
01:01:41,301 --> 01:01:49,398
I think that their psychology and philosophy is such that they believe

924
01:01:50,348 --> 01:01:57,028
that the only way to maintain social order is central planning and authority.

925
01:01:57,118 --> 01:01:59,438
It's not that they're trying to enslave, enslave.

926
01:01:59,753 --> 01:02:02,083
They're trying to take care of, right?

927
01:02:02,083 --> 01:02:07,433
It's a paternal kind of, uh, uh, it goal.

928
01:02:07,543 --> 01:02:11,473
It's like, ultimately, you know, if you're on the receiving side of that,

929
01:02:11,523 --> 01:02:14,513
you're not free and you see it as slavery, but the people who are doing

930
01:02:14,513 --> 01:02:16,663
it are like, this is for your own good.

931
01:02:16,793 --> 01:02:18,763
If we weren't managing the economy.

932
01:02:18,773 --> 01:02:19,753
Oh, my God.

933
01:02:19,843 --> 01:02:23,961
Like, and yes, I believe that there are some of them who realize that

934
01:02:23,961 --> 01:02:26,623
an economy is going to flourish.

935
01:02:27,473 --> 01:02:28,553
Unencumbered, right?

936
01:02:28,583 --> 01:02:33,663
A free market will always produce maximum prosperity and minimum poverty.

937
01:02:34,413 --> 01:02:36,533
And there's definitely some who understand this, but I actually

938
01:02:36,543 --> 01:02:38,093
think the majority do not.

939
01:02:38,093 --> 01:02:43,173
I think the majority have bought in to the macroeconomic Keynesian BS

940
01:02:43,173 --> 01:02:46,853
that's taught in the higher education, and they actually believe that

941
01:02:46,863 --> 01:02:51,223
central planning and authority is necessary to run an effective economy.

942
01:02:51,223 --> 01:02:56,628
But I also believe that there are people Who are, who have the levers of

943
01:02:56,628 --> 01:03:02,408
power at their disposal, who absolutely understand that they are doing this on

944
01:03:02,408 --> 01:03:06,838
the backs of the rest of us, that they are personally enriching themselves and

945
01:03:06,838 --> 01:03:10,638
empowering themselves at the expense of the rest of the human race, I believe

946
01:03:10,638 --> 01:03:14,658
that those people do exist, and that they do sit at levers of power, now I'm not

947
01:03:14,658 --> 01:03:20,463
talking about some sort of like grand, This kind of pervasive conspiracy, I'm

948
01:03:20,463 --> 01:03:27,133
talking about powerful individuals who find themselves in positions of power who

949
01:03:27,133 --> 01:03:32,734
are personally or with a small group of friends, very intentionally Taking some

950
01:03:32,734 --> 01:03:34,544
of these actions and perpetuating them.

951
01:03:34,544 --> 01:03:39,064
And I believe that there's a good amount of evidence to support that from the

952
01:03:39,064 --> 01:03:42,404
last hundred years that some of these people knew exactly what they were doing.

953
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:45,460
it's hard to know exactly what's going on because we don't see it.

954
01:03:45,470 --> 01:03:46,280
We don't know.

955
01:03:46,330 --> 01:03:46,910
We don't know.

956
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:49,490
What we see is the actions and the consequences.

957
01:03:49,510 --> 01:03:55,245
And so it's like, wow, is this a result of, you know, Purely kind of, uh, you

958
01:03:55,245 --> 01:03:59,965
know, incentives and chance and chaos, or is there somebody who really, uh,

959
01:03:59,965 --> 01:04:01,965
is trying to sort of plan this out?

960
01:04:02,005 --> 01:04:03,965
I think the answer is somewhere in the middle.

961
01:04:04,175 --> 01:04:07,355
I think that there are planners, and I think that there are bystanders.

962
01:04:07,355 --> 01:04:10,945
I think that there are opportunists, and I think that there are, uh,

963
01:04:11,155 --> 01:04:16,755
you know, malicious people who want to attack and enrich themselves

964
01:04:16,765 --> 01:04:17,975
at the expense of everybody else.

965
01:04:18,015 --> 01:04:22,665
I think it's all of it, but I think there's probably more understanding.

966
01:04:23,295 --> 01:04:28,985
intelligence and planning than most people believe.

967
01:04:29,785 --> 01:04:30,785
I don't think they're idiots.

968
01:04:31,095 --> 01:04:32,955
I really don't think these people are idiots.

969
01:04:33,265 --> 01:04:34,885
I think that they're malicious.

970
01:04:35,695 --> 01:04:37,355
No, I agree on all points.

971
01:04:37,355 --> 01:04:43,195
And just to be clear here, I definitely agree that like when communism quote

972
01:04:43,195 --> 01:04:46,085
unquote died, the problem didn't go away.

973
01:04:46,115 --> 01:04:47,925
And it is a perpetual fight.

974
01:04:47,955 --> 01:04:49,925
Every generation will have to fight it.

975
01:04:49,965 --> 01:04:54,805
Uh, I think that's a Reagan quote, like every generation has to fight for freedom.

976
01:04:55,285 --> 01:05:01,990
Anyway, um, So having said that, I do think like living in like Bulgaria

977
01:05:01,990 --> 01:05:07,800
or Czechoslovakia today is way, uh, a person living there is way more free

978
01:05:07,830 --> 01:05:09,480
than they were back in the eighties.

979
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:12,020
Like the, there's just no doubt of that.

980
01:05:12,930 --> 01:05:18,300
And no, and, and, uh, um, that people in the, in the, so-called West, the

981
01:05:18,300 --> 01:05:20,100
West is sort of like the New East.

982
01:05:20,100 --> 01:05:24,360
Now the pendulum has swing over to our part of the world and the, these can

983
01:05:24,420 --> 01:05:27,030
Canada, Canada, Stan for instances.

984
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:32,600
More intrusive than Czechoslovakia is at this point, and very much so.

985
01:05:32,610 --> 01:05:35,370
So, so there's, there's going to be ups and downs there.

986
01:05:35,620 --> 01:05:40,020
There are hopeful places though, like Miele being elected in Argentina,

987
01:05:40,270 --> 01:05:44,540
just quoting Rothbard, uh, and winning an election by doing that.

988
01:05:44,580 --> 01:05:49,130
That's to me, that's pretty amazing that, that a politician that is basically

989
01:05:49,130 --> 01:05:54,225
just Quoting Rothbard over and over again is winning with a majority.

990
01:05:54,225 --> 01:05:55,185
That gives me hope.

991
01:05:55,255 --> 01:05:59,805
Uh, I don't have much hope for politicians and I don't trust him.

992
01:05:59,805 --> 01:06:01,205
I don't trust any politician.

993
01:06:01,777 --> 01:06:05,497
but still, I think if, if we lose hope, then we'd lost

994
01:06:05,517 --> 01:06:07,447
the fight by, by definition.

995
01:06:07,457 --> 01:06:10,877
So, so like fighting for freedom and trying to find the tools is

996
01:06:10,877 --> 01:06:12,967
always the noble thing to do.

997
01:06:13,602 --> 01:06:19,752
And maybe we can never get rid of taxes, but I still think that regardless of how

998
01:06:19,762 --> 01:06:25,902
low the tax rate is, fighting for lowering it even more is always the right move.

999
01:06:25,992 --> 01:06:28,952
Like, we should always try to fight for less government.

1000
01:06:28,962 --> 01:06:32,107
Like, that's always the correct fight to fight.

1001
01:06:32,807 --> 01:06:33,407
I agree.

1002
01:06:33,527 --> 01:06:35,827
And I think that all fronts are valid.

1003
01:06:36,267 --> 01:06:41,547
Um, you know, that it might not be the most effective way to, uh,

1004
01:06:41,567 --> 01:06:46,237
fight, but even, you know, politics is a, is a battleground, right?

1005
01:06:46,237 --> 01:06:51,477
Like we should strive to get, um, liberty candidates in place, especially

1006
01:06:51,477 --> 01:06:53,057
at the local level of government.

1007
01:06:53,461 --> 01:06:55,431
sure, if you can get them at the national level, that's

1008
01:06:55,451 --> 01:06:58,088
even better in, in many cases.

1009
01:06:58,088 --> 01:06:58,780
And.

1010
01:06:59,021 --> 01:07:03,861
We should be fighting on the education front, the cultural front, um, you know,

1011
01:07:03,901 --> 01:07:07,261
um, even the nutritional and health front.

1012
01:07:07,291 --> 01:07:11,791
It's like, these are all valid fronts and each person should fight on whatever

1013
01:07:11,801 --> 01:07:14,931
front they are best suited to do so.

1014
01:07:15,174 --> 01:07:19,384
I, because of my, you know, personality and tendencies and skill

1015
01:07:19,384 --> 01:07:21,568
sets, fight on the technology front.

1016
01:07:21,648 --> 01:07:25,998
And I think that there's real leverage there, right?

1017
01:07:26,018 --> 01:07:32,464
Because You don't really need, it's, it's, it's in line with the sovereign individual

1018
01:07:32,474 --> 01:07:38,018
thesis, which is that technology in large part determines politics, not the other

1019
01:07:38,018 --> 01:07:45,178
way around, that political structures orient themselves around the techno, the

1020
01:07:45,178 --> 01:07:52,548
technology of the, of the day and it, the incentives that it produces, which is

1021
01:07:52,548 --> 01:07:54,798
why we're, this is why we Bitcoin, right?

1022
01:07:54,808 --> 01:08:00,094
That's like the whole point is that Bitcoin is this revolutionary We'll

1023
01:08:00,094 --> 01:08:07,054
call it networking technology that is optimal for producing a monetary network

1024
01:08:07,074 --> 01:08:14,204
and technology that undermines arguably the single greatest, um, mechanism of

1025
01:08:14,204 --> 01:08:21,064
totalitarianism, which is control over the creation and distribution of money.

1026
01:08:22,594 --> 01:08:28,189
And so I have always viewed, at least since starting Start9, Um,

1027
01:08:28,779 --> 01:08:34,099
Bitcoin as kind of the, um, the hero of the army, so to speak, right?

1028
01:08:34,099 --> 01:08:40,219
Like Bitcoin is the, like our hero is fighting their champion, right?

1029
01:08:40,224 --> 01:08:42,079
Like our champion is fighting their champion.

1030
01:08:42,079 --> 01:08:47,529
And it's almost like these two, these two incredibly powerful, um,

1031
01:08:47,559 --> 01:08:51,599
representatives of the two armies are fighting in the, in the arena.

1032
01:08:51,629 --> 01:08:53,699
And Bitcoin is fighting the central banks, right?

1033
01:08:53,699 --> 01:08:56,199
Like Bitcoin is fighting fiat money.

1034
01:08:57,244 --> 01:09:03,094
And, um, that is an important fight, because if our champion and hero loses,

1035
01:09:04,034 --> 01:09:09,164
boy, it's gonna be demoralizing, and to be honest, it's practically speaking,

1036
01:09:09,174 --> 01:09:10,974
almost a death blow to the entire army.

1037
01:09:11,394 --> 01:09:14,364
So it's really important that Bitcoin win its battle.

1038
01:09:15,374 --> 01:09:21,134
Personal fight with, uh, the Federal Reserve really is how, if you want

1039
01:09:21,134 --> 01:09:22,524
to really get specific about it.

1040
01:09:23,234 --> 01:09:28,554
Um, but there's still two armies standing behind these people, right?

1041
01:09:28,564 --> 01:09:32,284
Like money is just a tool of oppression.

1042
01:09:32,284 --> 01:09:36,964
It is not the essential and holistic nature of evil and

1043
01:09:36,964 --> 01:09:38,694
oppression and totalitarianism.

1044
01:09:38,694 --> 01:09:42,754
It's just a mechanism, a tool, but there are other mechanisms and the

1045
01:09:42,754 --> 01:09:44,944
grittiest of which is physical force.

1046
01:09:45,729 --> 01:09:46,959
Oh, we can't control your money.

1047
01:09:46,959 --> 01:09:48,589
Well, we can control your body.

1048
01:09:48,989 --> 01:09:51,379
Um, and so there are other fronts.

1049
01:09:51,969 --> 01:09:57,299
So while we're cheering Bitcoin on, which is a valid thing to do, it's also really

1050
01:09:57,299 --> 01:10:04,249
important to be fighting our own battles against the other members of the opponent.

1051
01:10:04,999 --> 01:10:07,349
And so our role in this.

1052
01:10:08,389 --> 01:10:11,409
Huge battlefield, if you want to stick with the analogy,

1053
01:10:12,119 --> 01:10:14,329
is communications, right?

1054
01:10:14,329 --> 01:10:22,309
We have taken on, the, the responsibility and role of ensuring that our soldiers

1055
01:10:23,069 --> 01:10:31,299
and army can effectively communicate with one another across time and space without

1056
01:10:31,389 --> 01:10:38,469
the enemy being able to stop it, surveil it, um, or use it against us, right?

1057
01:10:38,469 --> 01:10:40,229
Comms, communications.

1058
01:10:41,079 --> 01:10:47,279
are an essential part of a, uh, of, of winning a battle or

1059
01:10:47,279 --> 01:10:49,179
a war, and we don't have them.

1060
01:10:49,619 --> 01:10:51,359
We don't have comms right now.

1061
01:10:51,679 --> 01:10:52,989
We have horrible comms.

1062
01:10:53,764 --> 01:10:55,574
We can't communicate with each other.

1063
01:10:55,824 --> 01:11:01,048
It's almost impossible for me to form a group text with the two of you and

1064
01:11:01,048 --> 01:11:08,638
talk from country to country day by day, and it not be completely, uh, in

1065
01:11:08,828 --> 01:11:17,883
the open and And so, Start9's sort of underlying mission, not just texting,

1066
01:11:17,983 --> 01:11:20,253
but data and comms in general, right?

1067
01:11:20,263 --> 01:11:24,243
Like, if you view this war as an information war, right, like it's

1068
01:11:24,473 --> 01:11:30,493
social media propaganda, it is surveillance, it is security, data

1069
01:11:30,523 --> 01:11:37,523
security, like, if you view this as an information war, Overinformation

1070
01:11:37,523 --> 01:11:38,993
becomes the key to victory.

1071
01:11:39,003 --> 01:11:41,193
It becomes the crux.

1072
01:11:41,193 --> 01:11:43,773
It's like air superiority in WWII.

1073
01:11:43,773 --> 01:11:47,623
You need information superiority in an information war.

1074
01:11:48,273 --> 01:11:53,863
And we're getting crushed on that front right now because we're using our

1075
01:11:53,913 --> 01:11:57,493
enemies computers to talk to each other.

1076
01:11:57,503 --> 01:11:59,794
We have no chance.

1077
01:11:59,794 --> 01:12:02,113
Bitcoin honestly has no chance.

1078
01:12:02,503 --> 01:12:07,963
of surviving long term indefinitely if every node in the world is

1079
01:12:07,963 --> 01:12:09,773
being run on an Amazon server.

1080
01:12:11,543 --> 01:12:16,153
It just dies because Amazon is not on our side.

1081
01:12:17,189 --> 01:12:19,049
that's what we have carved out for ourselves.

1082
01:12:19,059 --> 01:12:23,869
That niche is making sure that the fighters, at least,

1083
01:12:24,279 --> 01:12:28,499
can coordinate effectively.

1084
01:12:29,433 --> 01:12:30,183
Beautiful.

1085
01:12:30,323 --> 01:12:31,623
Absolutely beautiful.

1086
01:12:31,733 --> 01:12:35,833
And, uh, that's how you're increasing your freedom footprint, I guess.

1087
01:12:35,883 --> 01:12:41,953
And, uh, we urge everyone to, to do, to play their part in, um, uh,

1088
01:12:42,393 --> 01:12:43,813
you know, liberating ourselves.

1089
01:12:43,993 --> 01:12:44,873
Emancipation.

1090
01:12:45,823 --> 01:12:49,193
Matt, this has been a, a, a great conversation.

1091
01:12:49,233 --> 01:12:53,913
Um, we're so happy we had you on and where can we send our listeners?

1092
01:12:53,913 --> 01:12:58,073
Where can we, where can they find themselves a and where can they find

1093
01:12:58,073 --> 01:12:59,463
you online and so on and so forth?

1094
01:13:00,252 --> 01:13:01,092
Uh, yes.

1095
01:13:01,092 --> 01:13:03,092
So our website is startnine.

1096
01:13:03,092 --> 01:13:05,062
com, which will ultimately lead you.

1097
01:13:05,497 --> 01:13:06,347
To everything else.

1098
01:13:06,713 --> 01:13:10,193
but what I would like to emphasize is that we have, um, and a lot of people

1099
01:13:10,193 --> 01:13:14,013
say this, but I don't, I don't think, uh, everyone means the same thing when they

1100
01:13:14,013 --> 01:13:16,233
say it, we have a wonderful community.

1101
01:13:16,593 --> 01:13:20,313
Um, the people who are actively engaged in the start nine community

1102
01:13:20,313 --> 01:13:21,623
are kind of the real deal.

1103
01:13:21,633 --> 01:13:26,033
Like we have a great, great group of people, not only working within and

1104
01:13:26,033 --> 01:13:31,293
adjacent to the company, but also just customers and users of start

1105
01:13:31,603 --> 01:13:33,903
OS, um, are really great people.

1106
01:13:34,023 --> 01:13:35,283
They're super helpful.

1107
01:13:35,713 --> 01:13:37,433
And like, really, really active.

1108
01:13:37,673 --> 01:13:44,143
So if you join our, um, Matrix server, where we have a bunch of rooms, or our

1109
01:13:44,213 --> 01:13:48,893
Telegram chat, uh, which is obviously hosted on Telegram servers, and eventually

1110
01:13:48,893 --> 01:13:51,703
we will cancel that chat, but for now it's where people are, and so we're

1111
01:13:51,703 --> 01:13:58,306
willing to deal with it, you will find a almost 24 7 kind of engagement with us.

1112
01:13:58,866 --> 01:14:03,796
And if you have any questions about Start9, about StartOS, about how to

1113
01:14:03,796 --> 01:14:08,506
get started, about how to use it, any issues with using it, you drop into

1114
01:14:08,506 --> 01:14:15,006
those channels, you ask questions, you will get clear, welcome responses.

1115
01:14:15,626 --> 01:14:19,446
In a matter of minutes at the most, whether it's from an official

1116
01:14:19,446 --> 01:14:23,396
Start9 support representative or from a knowledgeable community

1117
01:14:23,396 --> 01:14:24,706
member, you will be welcome.

1118
01:14:24,986 --> 01:14:26,076
You will be assisted.

1119
01:14:26,576 --> 01:14:35,276
and we are, you know, kind of here to help you on your journey to your own

1120
01:14:35,346 --> 01:14:40,076
personal digital liberation and journey.

1121
01:14:40,356 --> 01:14:46,881
And if enough people do this, it will provide that critical mass And tipping

1122
01:14:46,881 --> 01:14:51,331
point for everyone else to just be dragged into it, whether they like it or

1123
01:14:51,331 --> 01:14:52,961
not, you will be dragged into freedom.

1124
01:14:53,611 --> 01:14:56,161
Um, I shouldn't say dragged.

1125
01:14:56,341 --> 01:15:00,221
You will wander your way there, whether you like it or not.

1126
01:15:00,301 --> 01:15:00,681
So,

1127
01:15:00,966 --> 01:15:02,066
You'll be pulled in.

1128
01:15:02,991 --> 01:15:05,201
yeah, I, I don't like the force aspect.

1129
01:15:05,201 --> 01:15:10,601
It's just, it's just the incentives will naturally, uh, sort of expand to include

1130
01:15:10,611 --> 01:15:12,891
even those who didn't take the initiative.

1131
01:15:13,573 --> 01:15:14,693
to free themselves.

1132
01:15:15,003 --> 01:15:19,543
So anyway, um, join the community, buy one of our servers.

1133
01:15:19,593 --> 01:15:23,313
That is the one of the best ways you can contribute to our efforts.

1134
01:15:24,163 --> 01:15:27,623
Um, you're welcome to DIY and you know, that's great.

1135
01:15:28,093 --> 01:15:33,613
Uh, if you do give us a shout out, maybe throw us a donation, but if you want to

1136
01:15:33,613 --> 01:15:37,873
contribute, buy one of our devices, join our community, ask how you can help.

1137
01:15:37,883 --> 01:15:38,893
We need a lot of help.

1138
01:15:39,013 --> 01:15:41,853
Um, and, uh, that's it.

1139
01:15:42,428 --> 01:15:42,968
Fantastic.

1140
01:15:42,998 --> 01:15:47,198
Matt, really appreciate you coming on, telling us all about this,

1141
01:15:47,228 --> 01:15:48,668
everything that's going on with Start9.

1142
01:15:48,678 --> 01:15:53,928
We're, we're definitely big fans, uh, just, yeah, based on everything, the,

1143
01:15:53,938 --> 01:15:55,888
the ethos where we're very aligned.

1144
01:15:55,888 --> 01:15:57,238
So thank you again.

1145
01:15:57,568 --> 01:15:58,948
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.

1146
01:15:59,378 --> 01:16:00,148
Thanks for listening.

1147
01:16:00,593 --> 01:16:01,123
Talk soon guys.

1148
01:16:01,193 --> 01:16:01,413
Yeah.

1149
01:16:02,338 --> 01:16:02,658
Bye.