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Bitcoin's currently a $2 trillion asset class. It's going to capture perhaps half of the monetary

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premium in the world, which gives it about 100x upside from here. The only scenario in which I

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see someone competing with strategy would be just a government through seizure of assets,

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either through crime or rugging their citizens. So even if you're just thinking from a game theory

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point of view, if you're a company and your competitors adopt Bitcoin, they could be a worse

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off company, inferior products, lower profit margins. But if you're both cashflow positive

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and they're storing the fruits of their labor in Bitcoin,

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well, over time, they're just going to destroy you.

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Anil, welcome back to the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

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Nice to have you here.

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Great to see you.

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Excited to chat.

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It's been a long time.

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It's been a long time.

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You were on back when we were the Freedom Footprint Show

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and you had your first book, a beautifully designed book.

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And now you've written a second book, this time about someone else.

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that's someone else being Michael Saylor

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it's called the treasury of Michael Saylor

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and in it you explain

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in a very visual way as usual

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I suspect

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what Michael Saylor's

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strategy is

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is that right?

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yeah pretty much bang on

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you know kind of following

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his own journey of

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having all this cash

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sitting on his balance sheet

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and kind of having a moment of panic

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of what do you do?

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How do you preserve it

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as inflation is kind of chipping away at it?

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And he kind of has to go through

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that process of elimination

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and then also convince other people

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on his board and shareholders

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within his own professional community

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that he's not crazy

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and that this actually is the best path forward.

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And then it's about how they execute on that

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and what the future might look like.

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Since it's been a while since last you were on,

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can you give our listeners

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a little TLDR on yourself?

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Where did you come from in Fiatland and how did you end up in Bitcoin land?

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Yeah, I did a bunch of things in Fiatland.

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I worked in the music industry.

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I worked in higher education, worked for a few startups.

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And yeah, then when I made my way into Bitcoin, I kind of did it through the education route

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where I was just putting out educational content that I thought others might find useful.

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And then, you know, I went and worked for a bunch of Bitcoin companies within the space.

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Swan, Unchained, Bitcoin Magazine, did some angel investing.

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I'm an investor in about a dozen Bitcoin companies that I personally believe in.

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And in the process of that, I've also written a couple of books.

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So I'd say, yeah, primarily education has been my focus.

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How many books at this point?

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And what are they called?

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So yeah, two under my own name.

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So the Bitcoin Handbook, which is really just a collection of mental models

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that I think are helpful for anyone trying to make sense of Bitcoin.

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It's now out in about 10 languages, which is pretty cool.

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And then I had the fortune of working with Parker Lewis to turn his essay series gradually

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then suddenly into a book, which I'm really proud of.

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I think everyone should own that.

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And yeah, my latest one, The Treasury of Michael Saylor, is now out and should be out in about

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five or six languages in the coming months as well.

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And again, all of it you can get for free.

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Awesome.

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Awesome.

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And Parker Lewis's book is published with the Safe for Dean's publishing company, right?

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The Safe House, if I'm not mistaken.

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Yeah.

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So you can pay with stats and get it through safefadean.com.

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Fantastic.

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But we're here today to talk about the latest book, I guess.

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And how much was Michael himself involved with this project, if at all?

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Yeah, very little.

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You know, he was very supportive of me doing this.

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You know, that was nice.

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and I'd been posting a lot of content of his, basically distilling it, trying to find these

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lessons and analogies that I thought were really connecting with people. He's a very effective

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communicator, like whether you like him or not, I don't think you can argue with that.

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And so I'd kind of collected enough material that it made sense to make a book and really,

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it was just a book I wanted to own. And it's not a book promoting strategy as a company. It's not a

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book that's particularly pro-Michael. It's really just a book about an individual taking a first

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principles approach and looking at Bitcoin from an engineering perspective. If you were to have an

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ideal form of money or a way to store value, how would you design that from the ground up?

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Maybe the same way you'd design an airplane's fuselage. I hope it's very accessible to people.

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It's very difficult to argue with a lot of the material in the book.

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And it kind of just explains why the logical step for an individual, charity, community,

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and a corporation should save long-term if they're creating value in society, should

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put that value into Bitcoin long-term.

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Yeah, I saw a nice talk about this this summer at the Plan B Business School in Lugano when

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when Preston Pysh explained, he used a bicycle as a metaphor, for instance, and also a like a

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water power plant of some kind, like a pond of water, which represented all the boomer money

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that were so far inaccessible to the Bitcoin space and how Michael has been able to tap into that.

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And the different MicroStrategy products with different yield curves and whatnot was sort of

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the gears on the bicycle depending on how steep the hill was at the moment well what what how do

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you describe it in your book i mean i guess this is a spoiler episode um yeah yeah well i was very

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fortunate that there are actually two forwards in the book and one was written by senator lammus

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who was behind the bitcoin act and the other one was written by preston so he kind of explains

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very well what Michael is doing in even clearer terms. He uses a similar analogy that he used in

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Luongo. And the book, one of the chapters is Michael laying out the case of what Standard Oil

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did. How Rockefeller took this product, this commodity, crude oil, and then was distilling

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it in different levels of purity to create different products for different consumers

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with different needs. And, you know, Michael's used this analogy many times. It's no secret that

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that's what they're doing is that there are markets that exist right now that aren't being

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served. And he plans to serve them using Bitcoin as his capital base. So, yeah. And the book also

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contains a transcript from an interview between Michael and Preston, where they're kind of

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discussing, you know, Bitcoin is this ideal measuring unit for conducting, you know, any

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kind of economic transaction. All right. And how did this whole thing start? I mean, we've had both

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Michael and Eric Weiss on the show. I think Eric twice, if I'm not misremembering. And Eric is

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known as the guy who orange-pilled Michael, and this is during the lockdowns and stuff. And they're

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sitting on this giant lawn in Miami, and he's like, Michael, maybe you should have another look into

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Bitcoin. Is that whole story in the book as well? Yeah, briefly, briefly. It definitely goes into

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that moment of, you know, during the pandemic. And that was clearly that hit of inflation

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was kind of the final nail in the coffin for him to be like, something's wrong here.

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I need to better understand money. I need to better understand, you know, central banking

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and that kind of led him on his own journey to kind of discover and accept Bitcoin

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as the ultimate form of money.

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Yeah, and then there's a whole process

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of orange-pilling the board,

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which cannot have been the easiest task in the world.

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How did he pull that off?

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Well, so if you go back and read the mobile wave,

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which he wrote in 2012,

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and he kind of lays out the case

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that every time there's a technological,

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like a paradigm shift, essentially,

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there are going to be these players

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that emerged to dominate certain applications in a new field. So the mobile wave was kind of about

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these dominant digital networks that we now know as the Mag 7 or the Fang stocks. And his thesis

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was absolutely correct. You know, he was right. There were all these winner-take-all markets,

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and there were going to be these kind of superpowers that emerged from the birth of the

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internet. And, you know, if you read that, and perhaps you've been on Michael's board for a

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decade and you read that book too, and you've watched how he operates, you kind of know he's

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always on the lookout for the next thing. And so when Bitcoin came along, I think he was perfectly

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primed to grasp it and also know that you have to act pretty quickly to kind of carve out that

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dominant place in an industry. And he's made no secrets about wanting to be the Bitcoin bank.

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So yeah, I'm sure his board were kind of aware that there would be another thing coming that

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he'd be a very strong proponent for.

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So being the Bitcoin bank for the world, is that the end goal in your opinion?

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Do you think that's what he's building here?

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Yeah, to be clear, I have no inside information.

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I tried to make the book purely out of publicly available interviews, but he has said publicly

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in like, you know, maybe a few years back in interviews, he was kind of using that term.

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He wanted to be the Bitcoin bank. And to be that, you have to be, you know, 150% Bitcoin,

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which is why they're looking at different strategies to, you know, leverage debt and

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acquire Bitcoin in like accretive ways. So I do think he believed it's a winner take all market,

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just like e-commerce was just like online news was in search so my opinion you know become the bank

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and then you're creating different products the same way rockefeller was using that um refining

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analogy of oil so everything from asphalt or bitumen to to natural gas like and everything

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between diesel and gasoline and stuff exactly exactly all kinds of yields all kinds of maturities

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all right and how how would you explain what he's doing in in like the simplest terms to the to the

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layman like what what what's what has he found here so in the simplest terms i would say big of

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probably one of the smartest people you know and i'm talking objectively here if you if you looked

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at his own knowledge base and the kind of all the different pieces of history and engineering

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and knowledge that he draws upon when he talks just in general. So one of the most well-read,

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most knowledgeable people you know, been spending all day on ChatGPT interacting with the smart

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stay high, you know. What do you think will be the result of that? And by the way, this very

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smart individual is also incredibly well capitalized and has a lot of resources to do what

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they want so in my opinion yeah the outcome of that is going to be dominance in whatever field

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they choose to pursue so it's as simple as that it's it's just the smartest guy in the room figures

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out that he should sell the the losing asset and buy the winning asset like and acquire as much

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debt as possible i guess in the thing that is losing value and buy the thing that is gaining

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in value it's as simple as that yeah and he's not the only person doing this right like all

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very wealthy people do this they just most of them have not rocked bitcoin so they don't understand

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what the asset you should want to hold is so yeah he could he definitely understood the importance

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of being being early being first and acting acting um very strongly early on yeah and if i understood

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Preston correctly, all the other products that are in MST, they're called like MSTR and MST,

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some other letters, or STR. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm bad with this stuff. But anyway,

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he described them as like the gears on a bicycle because they have X percent guaranteed yield in

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dollars per year and then the rest goes to strategy because they are expecting bitcoin to go up more

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than that and there are different levels so you so like a four percent yield eight percent yield

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ten percent yield whatever it is guaranteed and then that comes at the price and there was also

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some mechanism of like all of this funding the the extra funds that comes from the number go up

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funding the underlying thing or something like how would you explain these other products at a very

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simple level if you look at his overall thesis which is i would say is a lot of a lot of bitcoins

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have a similar thesis that bitcoin is currently a two trillion dollar asset class it's going to

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capture you know perhaps half of the monetary premium in the world which gives it about a

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hundred x upside from here and you think how long will it take to to reach that kind of saturation

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point or monetization, or maybe, you know, 20 to 30 years, if you look at other technology cycles,

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okay, and you work backwards, and you're like, okay, that gives us roughly 30% a year is our

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expectation of what Bitcoin should appreciate in fiat terms. Well, then you're kind of saying to

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yourself well I can then lend at a rate lower than 30 And I should theoretically be okay Now obviously you don want to be borrowing money at 29 with an expectation of a 30 payoff

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You want to have a much, much wider gap. And so he kind of has this explanation of,

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you want long duration debt at the lowest interest rate you can get. And so if you're paying out

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investors who own some of these preferred shares at 8% per year, getting the cash today to invest

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in an asset you believe is going to appreciate 30% per year. It's pretty simple business in that

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respect. Now there's a lot of different conditions and scenarios that can happen within all those

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products. I'm not suggesting anyone go out and buy any of them by any means, but at a very simple

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rate, you know, the way strategy is built and all the different pipes they built and

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the access they have to different capital pools that sit around the world.

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At a very simple explanation, it's we want your money today.

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We're going to pay you X percent.

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And we expect that our Bitcoin is going to appreciate by way, way more than that in the

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future.

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so so it's a low time preference game for sure like this is yes i've heard michael michael ask

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the question rhetorically well like if if you were to store gold for the last hundred years

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where would you store it like what what city would you prefer to store it in and turns out there's no

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real good there was no real good place to store your gold for the last hundred years like it has

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all been captured by some empire somehow. And this is still true. Like, not your vault, not your gold,

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I guess. Speaking of not your keys, not your coins is a phrase I kind of miss hearing at these

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conferences. I go to a lot of Bitcoin conferences, you know, and we sort of never hear this, this

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not your keys, not your coins phrase anymore since these strategic reserve companies started

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popping up. And sure, I believe that MicroStrategy, or I shouldn't say MicroStrategy,

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I should say Strategy, because that's their name now. I believe this is probably the safest bet

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within this realm. I think there are going to be a lot of rug pulls with other companies, and

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not everyone is playing a fair game here. I think I tweeted something about them being this cycle

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shitcoins. So the saying now is sort of, you either die a Bitcoiner or you live long enough

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to see yourself become the suit coiner.

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And is there a truth to that?

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And what's the danger there in your opinion?

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Yeah, you know, like you said,

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it's these treasury companies,

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it doesn't take much to spin one up

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or take a company over

220
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and turn it into a treasury company.

221
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So there's nothing particularly special

222
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about a Bitcoin treasury company

223
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that emerges today.

224
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It definitely comes down to the management team

225
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and the strategy they pursue.

226
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And, you know, I personally do own MSTR.

227
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And I own it in a capacity where there's money that cannot own Bitcoin outright.

228
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You know, someone asks me, what would I like to own?

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I would like to own Bitcoin in self-custody, multi-jurisdictional, multi-sig setup.

230
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That is the top of the pyramid.

231
00:17:21,399 --> 00:17:27,899
So, you know, Michael's kind of made clear that there is a lot of capital in the world

232
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that cannot access Bitcoin directly.

233
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you know, can never buy spot Bitcoin. Their mandate just won't allow them to hold the commodity.

234
00:17:35,979 --> 00:17:42,259
And you go talk to anyone who runs a pension fund, you know, this is very obvious. So what can they

235
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own and gain some exposure to Bitcoin or get a yield of eight, 9% when interest rates are full?

236
00:17:51,079 --> 00:17:59,619
So yeah, there's trade-offs in everything. And by no means am I promoting people should own

237
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strategy stock. But when someone asks me like, well, why, why do you own MSTR? And I'm like,

238
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well, my due diligence was writing a book. I literally went and researched the team,

239
00:18:13,059 --> 00:18:18,719
the company, the strategy, and looked into how Michael thinks over a hundred of hours,

240
00:18:18,819 --> 00:18:23,759
hundreds of hours of content. And, you know, the outcome of that was me thinking, okay,

241
00:18:23,759 --> 00:18:28,779
if I have money that I cannot put directly into Bitcoin for legal reasons, tax reasons, whatnot,

242
00:18:28,779 --> 00:18:37,919
I will and I can't own an ETF either then MSTR is the next best thing so yeah but not your keys

243
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not your coins I agree you don't you don't hear much of that anymore and you certainly won't hear

244
00:18:42,239 --> 00:18:49,199
that in the traditional financial world because that's where most of the fees come from is from

245
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financial institutions holding your assets for you charging you a fee and you know sometimes in

246
00:18:54,939 --> 00:18:59,819
jurisdictions wrecking you so yeah it's it's definitely something people should be aware of

247
00:18:59,819 --> 00:19:06,419
yeah i think this this is the beauty of the thing is it's a true trojan horse in that sense because

248
00:19:06,419 --> 00:19:13,079
the bitcoin needs to be permissionless to work like if if we're if a government or a regulator

249
00:19:13,079 --> 00:19:18,659
gets to decide what a node is then bitcoin is not bitcoin anymore so it sort of needs to be black

250
00:19:18,659 --> 00:19:23,639
market money at its core it needs to be by the people for the people even though the people are

251
00:19:23,639 --> 00:19:32,279
retarded i mean this is this is the beauty of the network right so so we're the the trojan horse

252
00:19:32,279 --> 00:19:37,599
metaphor is is very beautiful in that sense because that's what we're selling that so what i usually

253
00:19:37,599 --> 00:19:43,739
warn people about these products is like yeah for a fiat world product it's probably pretty good

254
00:19:43,739 --> 00:19:51,259
but it's still the bitcoins aren't strategies in the not your keys not your coin sense they're not

255
00:19:51,259 --> 00:19:59,519
even that allegedly they are on coinbase right i think they store with coinbase or with some other

256
00:19:59,519 --> 00:20:05,299
key holder at the end of the day is some guy at coinbase is very very wealthy at this point or

257
00:20:05,299 --> 00:20:12,119
a few guys because it's probably a multi-sig thing and it's so my fear is couldn't some guy at coinbase

258
00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,819
just disappear one day and then there's zeros everywhere and some guy has bought an island

259
00:20:16,819 --> 00:20:19,019
and poop through your gun?

260
00:20:19,679 --> 00:20:20,979
What's your take on that?

261
00:20:21,619 --> 00:20:22,879
Yeah, I guess firstly,

262
00:20:23,659 --> 00:20:26,719
to be publicly listed on the NASDAQ,

263
00:20:27,459 --> 00:20:29,139
there's a lot more scrutiny.

264
00:20:29,399 --> 00:20:30,839
In fact, it's probably the most scrutiny

265
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of any capital market in the world

266
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if you want to list

267
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and be a company of that size,

268
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have analysts constantly looking at your company.

269
00:20:41,259 --> 00:20:43,399
And if you see or have joined

270
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any of their earnings calls

271
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and you see that they get,

272
00:20:46,319 --> 00:20:51,979
about a quarter of a million people tuning in live. Think about how many people are doing

273
00:20:51,979 --> 00:20:57,379
research on them from every angle all the time. They're under a pretty big microscope.

274
00:20:58,499 --> 00:21:03,779
Now that said, that maybe is no replacement for proof of reserves and what have you.

275
00:21:04,779 --> 00:21:12,439
And the reason I wrote the book was not so much to tell people that you should buy this stock or

276
00:21:12,439 --> 00:21:17,679
any kind of investment advice. In fact, one of the chapters in the book is Michael laying out

277
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the 18 or 24 risks, I think, of equities. One of them being custody risk, right? If you invest in

278
00:21:25,159 --> 00:21:29,899
any equity, you're trusting the management team, you're trusting the jurisdiction, you're trusting

279
00:21:29,899 --> 00:21:33,379
the government, you're trusting the products they issue, you're trusting there won't be any

280
00:21:33,379 --> 00:21:39,479
employees committing fraud. So he's very aware of all those risks and makes them clear publicly.

281
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but if you're interested in finance in any capacity it doesn't matter where you are in the

282
00:21:46,339 --> 00:21:50,699
world if you're interested in markets in any capacity you need to understand what's going on

283
00:21:50,699 --> 00:21:54,539
you don't have to agree with it you don't have to like it you don't have to be in favor of it

284
00:21:54,539 --> 00:21:59,959
but you will need to understand it so yeah if anything yeah you should you should you should

285
00:21:59,959 --> 00:22:07,499
read the book purely from an educational point yeah yeah i absolutely agree i'm just saying that

286
00:22:07,499 --> 00:22:11,339
So I'm not advising people to not buy strategy stock either.

287
00:22:11,559 --> 00:22:17,419
I'm just saying that at the end of the day, like possessing a Bitcoin, if you will, rather than owning it,

288
00:22:17,739 --> 00:22:23,199
it's just having a piece of information that you don't think other people have, i.e. the private key.

289
00:22:23,759 --> 00:22:26,579
And some guy will have to hold the private key.

290
00:22:26,819 --> 00:22:30,859
Or if it's a multisig, it's a few guys, but they can collude.

291
00:22:30,859 --> 00:22:37,199
like and is there a scenario where we have the the final scene of fight club play out instead of

292
00:22:37,199 --> 00:22:46,019
this beautiful like i because i'm sort of looking forward to that yeah well yeah again i don't have

293
00:22:46,019 --> 00:22:50,319
any insight into how a lot of these treasury companies are setting up their their custody

294
00:22:50,319 --> 00:22:56,179
solutions you know as you point out a lot of people or a lot of yeah yeah it's more a question

295
00:22:56,179 --> 00:22:57,759
of the custodians themselves

296
00:22:57,759 --> 00:22:59,919
rather than the treasury company.

297
00:23:00,379 --> 00:23:01,999
Yeah, and it's unfortunate

298
00:23:01,999 --> 00:23:05,539
a lot of them use Coinbase custody

299
00:23:05,539 --> 00:23:08,039
because that's just one of the most...

300
00:23:08,039 --> 00:23:11,059
It's got the most ticks from regulators in the US

301
00:23:11,059 --> 00:23:14,679
that it maybe is the easiest solution.

302
00:23:14,939 --> 00:23:18,339
And, you know, I personally am no fan of Brian Armstrong.

303
00:23:19,159 --> 00:23:20,499
So it's interesting.

304
00:23:20,499 --> 00:23:22,459
I wonder how it'll play out,

305
00:23:22,859 --> 00:23:24,399
but I don't have any immediate concerns.

306
00:23:24,399 --> 00:23:42,679
Yeah, and before some guy walks off with the money, he should be aware that there are half a million people looking at these board meetings and stuff. So some guy would be pressured not to bail with the money, I guess.

307
00:23:42,679 --> 00:23:56,499
Anyway, what's the other risk there? Is there a risk that Coinbase and the likes of Coinbase become so powerful that they have too much of a say in Bitcoin's direction in the future, do you think?

308
00:23:56,499 --> 00:24:03,479
Like right now, I think like 60%, more than 60% of the coins are still held by individuals and not by institutions.

309
00:24:03,819 --> 00:24:12,099
But if that number shrinks and we all, all of a sudden we have Coinbase being this giant key holding player.

310
00:24:12,099 --> 00:24:19,599
And the more of these treasury companies we see, the more institutionalized Bitcoin gets, the less grassroots it gets.

311
00:24:19,599 --> 00:24:28,059
And then there is, in my mind at least, there's a higher risk of capture there at some point.

312
00:24:28,179 --> 00:24:29,839
What are your views on that?

313
00:24:30,459 --> 00:24:31,579
And what are Michael's views?

314
00:24:32,179 --> 00:24:36,059
Yeah, I don't know Michael's views on this one, but my own views.

315
00:24:36,459 --> 00:24:40,339
I think there's lots of different kind of cycles happening.

316
00:24:40,699 --> 00:24:45,219
So at an individual level, and let's talk about millennials.

317
00:24:45,219 --> 00:24:53,959
maybe their first foray into Bitcoin is buying an ETF in their Robinhood account.

318
00:24:54,979 --> 00:24:58,739
And maybe they live in a country where the government kind of rugs them,

319
00:24:59,059 --> 00:25:05,079
similar to, say, what happened in Cyprus or Greece or even the 08 financial crisis.

320
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,079
And then they go deeper down the rabbit hole, understand central banking a bit more,

321
00:25:09,539 --> 00:25:14,479
and go from a wrapped ETF product to self-custody.

322
00:25:14,479 --> 00:25:18,799
which then is, you know, kind of draining funds out of those pools.

323
00:25:19,599 --> 00:25:21,619
Then you have, you know, say the treasury companies.

324
00:25:22,259 --> 00:25:25,379
If the goal is to hold Bitcoin you acquire forever,

325
00:25:25,659 --> 00:25:28,639
well, how many businesses can actually do that?

326
00:25:29,079 --> 00:25:32,159
If you think of all the risks, you know, business cycle risk,

327
00:25:32,599 --> 00:25:36,219
you have to have a very strong strategy and balance sheet to be able to,

328
00:25:36,219 --> 00:25:37,659
you know, do that.

329
00:25:38,079 --> 00:25:39,979
I think a lot of treasury companies, like you mentioned,

330
00:25:39,979 --> 00:25:42,979
you know, probably will blow up and go through bankruptcy.

331
00:25:42,979 --> 00:25:49,999
and those Bitcoin will end up back in, you know, on the market available for individuals to purchase.

332
00:25:50,199 --> 00:25:51,679
So I kind of see it as a cycle.

333
00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:56,959
I don't imagine a scenario where all the Bitcoin is held by BlackRock and strategy.

334
00:25:56,959 --> 00:25:59,739
I think there are just so many other factors at play,

335
00:26:00,379 --> 00:26:03,119
like especially demographics and generational preferences.

336
00:26:03,639 --> 00:26:07,939
And the next generation probably has less and less trust for custodians.

337
00:26:07,939 --> 00:26:14,939
yeah and in in bitcoin like your first million sats is the hardest not the easiest like the

338
00:26:14,939 --> 00:26:20,519
the dollar works differently like your first million dollars is the easiest that's the saying

339
00:26:20,519 --> 00:26:26,359
right and bitcoin is the reverse it's like the inverse of everything so number go up also stops

340
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:31,919
stops these institutions from becoming too large simply because the the coins get more expensive i

341
00:26:31,919 --> 00:26:37,719
think bitcoin was around 20k like the first time michael bought any or even lower than that yeah i

342
00:26:37,719 --> 00:26:44,479
think about nine oh that low oh no really for his personal holdings yeah it was oh yeah yeah but

343
00:26:44,479 --> 00:26:52,659
yeah strategy's first purchase i think it was around 10 or yeah yeah okay so so yeah yeah yeah

344
00:26:52,659 --> 00:27:00,519
which which is hilarious in hindsight yes so we all thought he was late like you know yeah

345
00:27:00,519 --> 00:27:02,639
Yeah, you're never late to Bitcoin.

346
00:27:02,839 --> 00:27:02,959
Yeah.

347
00:27:03,179 --> 00:27:08,859
So what's the main thing that sets a strategy apart

348
00:27:08,859 --> 00:27:11,199
from all these other treasury companies,

349
00:27:11,559 --> 00:27:13,079
except for them being bigger?

350
00:27:13,999 --> 00:27:14,679
Two things.

351
00:27:15,139 --> 00:27:16,199
I mean, first, you know,

352
00:27:16,679 --> 00:27:18,479
so it's not necessarily being bigger.

353
00:27:19,059 --> 00:27:20,759
It's, you know, someone kind of thinks,

354
00:27:20,859 --> 00:27:25,259
okay, so let's say they have 680,000 Bitcoin at this point,

355
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:26,739
640, around that.

356
00:27:27,439 --> 00:27:29,799
For another company to compete with them,

357
00:27:30,519 --> 00:27:35,439
It's not simply buying $70 billion worth of Bitcoin, which they have.

358
00:27:35,619 --> 00:27:37,239
It's actually the replacement cost.

359
00:27:37,739 --> 00:27:54,978
You got to bid into the market right now to try and acquire 640 Bitcoin What might that cost you What might that do to the price What might that do to strategy stock as a result and their ability to purchase more Bitcoin So you fighting a

360
00:27:54,978 --> 00:27:59,198
losing battle if you're going to try and take them on. The only scenario in which I see someone

361
00:27:59,198 --> 00:28:06,658
competing with strategy meaningfully would be just a government through seizure of assets,

362
00:28:06,658 --> 00:28:08,838
either through crime or rugging their citizens,

363
00:28:09,118 --> 00:28:12,039
in which case they might be able to reach that kind of threshold.

364
00:28:12,998 --> 00:28:15,598
And the other piece, what was I going to say?

365
00:28:16,319 --> 00:28:18,618
I know there is no second best.

366
00:28:19,838 --> 00:28:22,958
Well, I just, yeah, he kind of, yeah.

367
00:28:23,158 --> 00:28:26,398
Oh, this is a very underappreciated point, I think,

368
00:28:26,858 --> 00:28:31,559
is that, you know, Michael has been a public markets executive

369
00:28:31,559 --> 00:28:35,898
for three decades and he saw his stock go from, you know,

370
00:28:35,898 --> 00:28:43,178
I think $300 to less than a dollar and basically saw like a 99% decline in his personal net worth,

371
00:28:43,278 --> 00:28:50,258
which would, you know, crush any average person. But think about someone who's very determined

372
00:28:50,258 --> 00:28:55,078
and how much more that might play on you. And, you know, major newspapers are making fun of you.

373
00:28:55,178 --> 00:29:00,718
You're on the front page of like the Wall Street Journal and they're mocking you. And I just don't

374
00:29:00,718 --> 00:29:07,098
think that Michael has forgotten any of that and I don't think he's going to let that happen again

375
00:29:07,098 --> 00:29:12,438
so I think you have someone who's got a lot of wisdom through a lot of pain in the past

376
00:29:12,438 --> 00:29:18,998
and is being very careful to to not repeat any of the same things that happened in the past

377
00:29:18,998 --> 00:29:25,418
yeah I I haven't had a chance to have a chat with Michael since I think New Year's but I saw his

378
00:29:25,418 --> 00:29:31,819
talk in in prague and that that talk had a lot to do with it's called 21 years i think like the

379
00:29:32,698 --> 00:29:40,059
21 everything and it was a lot about like advising people to to borrow money to to acquire bitcoin

380
00:29:40,698 --> 00:29:46,539
and that made me raise an eyebrow because like is is that really advisable we know that bitcoin

381
00:29:46,539 --> 00:29:53,738
can have long ass dips like it can take a while before before the next bull run i mean i mean

382
00:29:53,738 --> 00:30:00,098
I absolutely believe that as long as it continues to function, it can only go up.

383
00:30:00,358 --> 00:30:02,098
But there will be cycles.

384
00:30:02,358 --> 00:30:05,898
One of the cycles is probably the last cycle, and that's going to be weird.

385
00:30:06,318 --> 00:30:11,799
But we have no idea if that last cycle is like four years away or 400 years away.

386
00:30:12,078 --> 00:30:16,618
So is that really advisable to borrow fiat to buy Bitcoin?

387
00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:19,358
It depends.

388
00:30:19,358 --> 00:30:23,039
I mean, look, let's take the New Year's party, for example.

389
00:30:23,738 --> 00:30:29,378
And I mean, you know, kind of look around who was there and you have very public people,

390
00:30:29,539 --> 00:30:35,238
very senior people within the US government, other billionaires, a lot of notable people

391
00:30:35,238 --> 00:30:38,258
that you can kind of see, okay, Michael's a very well-connected person.

392
00:30:38,438 --> 00:30:39,898
He's in a lot of conversations.

393
00:30:40,898 --> 00:30:47,498
And I don't imagine he would ever advise people to do something unless he understood that something

394
00:30:47,498 --> 00:30:52,638
had such a great deal of certainty within a certain jurisdiction that it probably is

395
00:30:52,638 --> 00:30:59,278
similar risk to someone, you know, leveraging real estate by taking, you know, a 90%

396
00:30:59,278 --> 00:31:06,018
of a house via a mortgage, you know, putting 10% down, borrowing 90%, you know, 3% for 30 years.

397
00:31:06,418 --> 00:31:11,338
Well, if you were going to do that for an investment property, so not your primary residence,

398
00:31:11,978 --> 00:31:15,978
well, why wouldn't you look at other assets that have kind of similar terms? And again,

399
00:31:15,978 --> 00:31:22,598
I also agree with you, I would never tell someone to borrow to acquire Bitcoin at a personal level.

400
00:31:22,638 --> 00:31:27,818
but if you're in a position where you're like hey i've got a few hundred grand i'm looking at

401
00:31:27,818 --> 00:31:33,078
purchasing this piece of real estate well what are your other options if your goal is purely

402
00:31:33,078 --> 00:31:37,998
a return in the future you know unless you're really passionate about real estate and you want

403
00:31:37,998 --> 00:31:42,478
to be a real estate investor because you just love real estate yeah you have to go through that

404
00:31:42,478 --> 00:31:46,758
checklist of what are all the other asset classes you should be looking at against the same terms

405
00:31:46,758 --> 00:31:49,218
if you're planning to borrow money to purchase it.

406
00:31:50,218 --> 00:31:51,299
So that's my own take.

407
00:31:51,878 --> 00:31:54,978
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408
00:31:55,318 --> 00:31:57,718
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409
00:31:57,718 --> 00:32:00,838
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410
00:32:00,838 --> 00:32:03,278
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411
00:32:03,278 --> 00:32:08,358
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412
00:32:08,638 --> 00:32:11,778
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413
00:32:12,138 --> 00:32:13,299
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414
00:32:13,498 --> 00:32:15,778
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415
00:32:15,778 --> 00:32:19,158
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416
00:32:19,559 --> 00:32:24,918
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417
00:32:25,518 --> 00:32:26,018
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418
00:32:26,539 --> 00:32:29,258
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419
00:32:29,559 --> 00:32:32,898
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420
00:32:33,398 --> 00:32:38,799
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421
00:32:39,098 --> 00:32:42,718
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422
00:32:42,718 --> 00:32:47,238
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423
00:32:47,518 --> 00:32:49,358
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424
00:32:49,638 --> 00:32:51,398
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425
00:32:51,738 --> 00:32:53,998
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426
00:32:54,398 --> 00:32:58,858
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427
00:32:58,858 --> 00:33:07,198
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428
00:33:07,518 --> 00:33:08,178
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429
00:33:09,039 --> 00:33:10,878
Yeah, it's probably a good one.

430
00:33:10,878 --> 00:33:22,478
I mean, the way I see it with real estate is like the problem with real estate is that it's being used as money, like as proper money, as store value, or as I prefer to say, medium exchange over time.

431
00:33:23,018 --> 00:33:29,998
Anyway, so real estate being used as a store value makes real estate worse as housing for human beings.

432
00:33:30,678 --> 00:33:32,338
And I think there's a flip side to that.

433
00:33:32,758 --> 00:33:34,158
I think the same is true for money.

434
00:33:34,158 --> 00:33:38,338
Like if money has other use cases than the monetary use case.

435
00:33:38,338 --> 00:33:53,059
So if money is used for JPEG storage, for instance, then I think it becomes a worse form of money because it gets priced differently because it has other use cases and also all the UTXO bloats and all that stuff.

436
00:33:53,418 --> 00:33:57,698
Are you taking a side in this latest Knotts vs. Kort?

437
00:33:57,698 --> 00:34:02,438
I accidentally stumbled into this, but I'd love to hear you.

438
00:34:04,299 --> 00:34:07,338
Honestly, I didn't want to end up there.

439
00:34:07,338 --> 00:34:08,519
but here we are.

440
00:34:08,778 --> 00:34:09,959
I'm going to divert.

441
00:34:10,138 --> 00:34:11,578
Look, there are a lot of smarter people

442
00:34:11,578 --> 00:34:13,198
involved in this debate than I am.

443
00:34:13,499 --> 00:34:16,919
I always just fall back on the fact

444
00:34:16,919 --> 00:34:19,338
that fortunately for us,

445
00:34:19,419 --> 00:34:21,838
Bitcoin clients,

446
00:34:22,019 --> 00:34:23,138
they're backwards compatible.

447
00:34:23,698 --> 00:34:25,738
So I don't see any immediate need

448
00:34:25,738 --> 00:34:27,238
to upgrade to something

449
00:34:27,238 --> 00:34:28,278
I don't fully understand

450
00:34:28,278 --> 00:34:30,878
the risks or opportunities of.

451
00:34:31,578 --> 00:34:32,798
And going back to your point

452
00:34:32,798 --> 00:34:35,338
about monetary premiums,

453
00:34:35,338 --> 00:34:40,519
And that's why I still to this day recommend Vijay's essay, The Bullish Case of Bitcoin,

454
00:34:41,098 --> 00:34:46,439
where there's a beautiful chart where he kind of lays out the monetary premium of silver,

455
00:34:46,598 --> 00:34:47,258
gold, and Bitcoin.

456
00:34:47,878 --> 00:34:51,419
And Bitcoin is just pure monetary premium because, like you said, you don't want any

457
00:34:51,419 --> 00:34:54,218
other applications competing for that asset.

458
00:34:54,758 --> 00:34:58,459
And that's something that gold bucks just completely miss when they argue with Bitcoin

459
00:34:58,459 --> 00:35:00,479
and say, but you can use it in dentistry.

460
00:35:01,479 --> 00:35:04,838
Like, yeah, that makes it a worse asset to hold.

461
00:35:05,338 --> 00:35:31,979
Yes, they never seem to get that. But I think that's true for, like, if we set the whole which version you're running kind of debate aside, like the other use cases that they are trying to push onto Bitcoin is like, obviously going to make it, it will compete with the medium exchange use case, which is what the thing is for.

462
00:35:32,398 --> 00:35:34,218
So we'll see what happens with that.

463
00:35:35,338 --> 00:35:41,959
At least I haven't seen any dick butt JPEGs inscribed in the actual ETFs.

464
00:35:42,098 --> 00:35:42,698
Yeah, you go.

465
00:35:42,758 --> 00:35:48,658
That might be a thing in the future that you get an official document with a US

466
00:35:48,658 --> 00:35:51,459
government stamp and there's a dick butt JPEG on it too.

467
00:35:52,298 --> 00:35:52,919
What do you think?

468
00:35:54,098 --> 00:35:55,838
Yeah, anything's possible, right?

469
00:35:55,959 --> 00:35:56,499
Missionless.

470
00:35:57,499 --> 00:35:57,698
Yeah.

471
00:35:58,758 --> 00:36:02,238
So is there a conclusion to the book?

472
00:36:02,238 --> 00:36:06,358
or is it just like here's the thing?

473
00:36:06,919 --> 00:36:08,158
What would you say?

474
00:36:08,878 --> 00:36:12,598
Well, yeah, the conclusion is

475
00:36:12,598 --> 00:36:15,539
it works you through first principles

476
00:36:15,539 --> 00:36:16,798
like what is energy?

477
00:36:17,638 --> 00:36:21,098
What is money other than a form of economic energy?

478
00:36:21,919 --> 00:36:25,419
How do individuals benefit or use that

479
00:36:25,419 --> 00:36:29,698
to then build capital investments or store wealth?

480
00:36:29,698 --> 00:36:36,758
Well, it just kind of ends with, I guess, another call to action of if you want to be

481
00:36:36,758 --> 00:36:41,318
prosperous in the future, if you want your family to be prosperous, if you want your

482
00:36:41,318 --> 00:36:44,758
company to survive, you need to take a serious look at this.

483
00:36:45,278 --> 00:36:50,078
Like it's not going away and anyone who adopts it will have an immediate advantage of everyone

484
00:36:50,078 --> 00:36:50,558
who does it.

485
00:36:51,198 --> 00:36:53,898
So even if you're just thinking from a game theory point of view, if you're a company

486
00:36:53,898 --> 00:37:01,999
and your competitors adopt Bitcoin, they could be a worse off company. Inferior products,

487
00:37:02,578 --> 00:37:09,218
lower profit margins. But if you're both, say, cashflow positive, and they're storing the fruits

488
00:37:09,218 --> 00:37:14,798
of their labor in Bitcoin, well, over time, they're just going to destroy you. If they see

489
00:37:14,798 --> 00:37:20,898
a 10x appreciation over a decade in their treasury, well, then you become an acquisition target.

490
00:37:20,898 --> 00:37:25,919
so it's very different at an individual level saving in bitcoin versus a corporation or

491
00:37:25,919 --> 00:37:29,738
publicly traded corporation where you actually have to be aware of what your competitors are

492
00:37:29,738 --> 00:37:35,218
doing because otherwise they just might acquire you so yeah we're the argument where people

493
00:37:35,218 --> 00:37:42,618
don't quite understand why these treasury companies are popping up it's because it very much is far

494
00:37:42,618 --> 00:37:47,519
more game theoretical than then you know individuals just casually saving in bitcoin

495
00:37:47,519 --> 00:37:54,258
yeah no that's that one of the best slides i've seen michael use in his talks is that one with

496
00:37:54,258 --> 00:38:01,019
where you adjust for inflation in a proper manner so real inflation meaning the the actual

497
00:38:01,019 --> 00:38:09,618
money supply is taken into account and nothing outperforms like even if the s p 500 is a losing

498
00:38:09,618 --> 00:38:15,318
game like everything's a losing game except four or five companies in the world everything else is

499
00:38:15,318 --> 00:38:21,778
just losing and and then of course bitcoin and microstrategy outperforms everything so yeah yeah

500
00:38:21,778 --> 00:38:26,618
and that's the other piece is recognizing that there have been different kind of primary saving

501
00:38:26,618 --> 00:38:31,338
vehicles of a time you know for a period of time people saved in government bonds for a period of

502
00:38:31,338 --> 00:38:36,898
time people saved in gold for a period of time currently people are saving in the s p 500 and

503
00:38:36,898 --> 00:38:42,078
all those things were just tracking the rate of monetary inflation and you know the next what's

504
00:38:42,078 --> 00:38:47,338
the next thing that where's all that money going to move next so that's just the question yeah and

505
00:38:47,338 --> 00:38:55,198
also the the idea that saving in something that is inflationary like so so that you actually

506
00:38:55,198 --> 00:39:02,459
you're actually not making any money like in in reality the free market is deflationary and all

507
00:39:02,459 --> 00:39:07,638
prices are falling and if you put on the bitcoin go rules you can actually see this but yeah but

508
00:39:07,638 --> 00:39:14,058
So everyone thinks that zero inflation is like the neutral thing, but it isn't.

509
00:39:14,999 --> 00:39:18,798
Zero inflation is also stealing a whole bunch of...

510
00:39:18,798 --> 00:39:23,758
That's printing as fast as people get better at doing stuff, basically.

511
00:39:24,758 --> 00:39:27,638
So, and I mean, for me, that was a...

512
00:39:27,638 --> 00:39:30,658
When I realized that, then that's a real penny drop.

513
00:39:30,738 --> 00:39:33,539
Like how much they've stolen from us, not only through inflation,

514
00:39:33,678 --> 00:39:35,999
but through not letting deflation happen.

515
00:39:35,999 --> 00:39:38,878
It's just insane.

516
00:39:39,378 --> 00:39:47,678
Yeah, and the amount of unlearning that has to happen for people to recognize that the true nature of technology is deflationary, which is so obvious.

517
00:39:48,098 --> 00:39:49,078
It sounds so obvious.

518
00:39:49,238 --> 00:39:50,519
It's super, super obvious.

519
00:39:50,718 --> 00:39:53,598
The way I put it in clown world was like, ask yourself a question.

520
00:39:53,798 --> 00:39:59,058
If human beings practice doing something, do they usually get better or worse at what they're practicing?

521
00:39:59,598 --> 00:40:01,298
And the answer is obvious.

522
00:40:01,398 --> 00:40:02,039
We get better.

523
00:40:02,039 --> 00:40:08,198
But the follow-up question everyone should ask themselves is, so why aren't all prices falling forever?

524
00:40:09,178 --> 00:40:11,318
Because that's what that means.

525
00:40:12,338 --> 00:40:13,818
It's super simple.

526
00:40:14,678 --> 00:40:18,459
And so few see that.

527
00:40:19,218 --> 00:40:21,098
And that's just insane.

528
00:40:21,419 --> 00:40:23,519
We can understand 2 plus 2.

529
00:40:23,638 --> 00:40:24,858
We can understand language.

530
00:40:24,858 --> 00:40:32,398
and also everyone can but no one sees this absolutely bleeding obvious fact that is staring

531
00:40:32,398 --> 00:40:36,838
us in the face all at all times that you're being stolen from because prices are going up

532
00:40:36,838 --> 00:40:42,539
but then it makes sense from an incentives point of view if you have the money printer

533
00:40:42,539 --> 00:40:48,558
you're going to allocate as much of the money you're printing to keeping your population

534
00:40:48,558 --> 00:40:55,778
economically illiterate or funding you know systems that teach people that you are good

535
00:40:55,778 --> 00:41:04,218
so how much is of this is an actual conspiracy like or is it just the incentives or is there

536
00:41:04,218 --> 00:41:10,698
actually a mad evil genius on top that it rubs his hands and and and it just schemes this into

537
00:41:10,698 --> 00:41:15,979
being i don't know i think like i don't think even when they started the federal reserve that they

538
00:41:15,979 --> 00:41:17,778
they knew where it was going.

539
00:41:17,778 --> 00:41:21,178
Like maybe someone did, but like most people,

540
00:41:21,618 --> 00:41:24,979
they don't see the hockey stick nature of these things

541
00:41:24,979 --> 00:41:26,539
because it's exponential too, right?

542
00:41:26,778 --> 00:41:31,138
You have to print more and more as we get better at things faster and faster

543
00:41:31,138 --> 00:41:32,939
because we have AIs and stuff now.

544
00:41:33,419 --> 00:41:34,298
No, it's just insane.

545
00:41:34,818 --> 00:41:44,558
If you want to find local Bitcoin communities other Bitcoiners Bitcoin merchants and Bitcoin events in your area there no better way to do that than through the Orange Pill app

546
00:41:45,117 --> 00:41:48,617
Wait a minute. It's not the Orange Pill app anymore. It's Club Orange.

547
00:41:48,977 --> 00:41:55,457
Club Orange is an omni app that includes a lot of features, including a list of events, a wallet,

548
00:41:55,657 --> 00:41:59,157
where you can send and receive sats over the Lightning Network.

549
00:41:59,157 --> 00:42:04,857
You can even geosap areas, so you can send sats to a whole bunch of people in one single area.

550
00:42:04,957 --> 00:42:09,498
You can also tap Zap while you're chatting to someone, which is a new feature that I don't

551
00:42:09,498 --> 00:42:10,957
believe exists anywhere else.

552
00:42:11,157 --> 00:42:14,898
Overall, a fantastic app for connecting Bitcoiners all around the world.

553
00:42:14,898 --> 00:42:18,177
So go to cluborange.org and sign up today.

554
00:42:18,477 --> 00:42:19,357
You won't regret it.

555
00:42:19,578 --> 00:42:20,857
It's not just a gay dating app.

556
00:42:21,058 --> 00:42:22,218
It's everything else too.

557
00:42:22,758 --> 00:42:23,818
You can use it.

558
00:42:24,558 --> 00:42:25,498
Forget about that.

559
00:42:25,957 --> 00:42:26,637
Go and sign up.

560
00:42:27,258 --> 00:42:28,758
cluborange.org

561
00:42:28,758 --> 00:42:33,078
If you want to really secure your Bitcoin, you should check out the Bitcoin Advisor.

562
00:42:33,078 --> 00:42:38,218
They have never lost a single set and they take care of your stack together with you.

563
00:42:38,418 --> 00:42:39,518
They can't use your stack.

564
00:42:39,637 --> 00:42:40,238
That's impossible.

565
00:42:40,698 --> 00:42:42,877
But they can help you with inheritance planning.

566
00:42:42,998 --> 00:42:44,998
They can help you hodl the Bitcoin long term.

567
00:42:45,278 --> 00:42:48,857
So go to thebitcoinadvisor.com to find out more and brush your teeth.

568
00:42:49,597 --> 00:42:52,137
What else do you want to talk about except Michael Saylor?

569
00:42:52,518 --> 00:42:54,698
Let's not narrow this down too much.

570
00:42:54,957 --> 00:42:56,957
I don't want to use a podcast to catch up.

571
00:42:57,117 --> 00:42:58,117
But yeah, what have you been up to?

572
00:42:58,857 --> 00:43:02,718
You've written a few books now, a lot of episodes into the new podcast.

573
00:43:02,718 --> 00:43:05,617
I see you at a ton of conferences.

574
00:43:06,258 --> 00:43:07,097
Yeah, what are you working on?

575
00:43:07,938 --> 00:43:11,038
Yeah, I had a lot of fun here the last couple of weeks.

576
00:43:11,238 --> 00:43:14,877
I was on a small mini Europe tour.

577
00:43:15,298 --> 00:43:22,698
So I was first in Sofia, Bulgaria for a great little cozy conference there and met the Bulgarian

578
00:43:22,698 --> 00:43:24,078
Bitcoin community again.

579
00:43:24,398 --> 00:43:29,078
I've been once before three years ago, and it's very good to catch up again and see how

580
00:43:29,078 --> 00:43:30,097
things are unfolding there.

581
00:43:30,097 --> 00:43:40,877
And then I went to Prague for the Trezor event where they released the latest model of the Trezor, Trezor Model 7, which was a very cool event too.

582
00:43:41,578 --> 00:43:50,318
And a lot of good people, a lot of managed to film an interview in driving around Prague in a veteran car that is coming out soon, I guess.

583
00:43:50,957 --> 00:43:51,857
And that was also fun.

584
00:43:51,938 --> 00:43:56,157
And after that, straight to Logano, which was also packed with stuff to do.

585
00:43:56,157 --> 00:44:06,698
So what I did there was like the first night I did this Rocca Motto thing that you might have seen pictures of where I sing Nirvana covers with Samson and Luke and Marty.

586
00:44:07,538 --> 00:44:12,898
And we had a pod, a live pod recording 8.30 in the morning after that.

587
00:44:12,977 --> 00:44:14,518
So that was a bit rough.

588
00:44:15,998 --> 00:44:19,477
And yeah, and then that day was my 49th birthday.

589
00:44:19,477 --> 00:44:25,438
And I did a panel on the history of Austrian economics with Seyfedin and Rahim.

590
00:44:25,438 --> 00:44:26,438
And that was a great honor.

591
00:44:26,438 --> 00:44:27,438
What a great honor.

592
00:44:27,438 --> 00:44:28,438
What a great honor.

593
00:44:28,438 --> 00:44:29,438
No, fantastic.

594
00:44:29,438 --> 00:44:31,278
So I was a very happy boy.

595
00:44:31,278 --> 00:44:36,617
And as always in Lugano, you meet a lot of great people and it's Lugano itself.

596
00:44:36,617 --> 00:44:37,617
It's just fantastic.

597
00:44:37,617 --> 00:44:40,477
It's a beautiful place for sure.

598
00:44:40,477 --> 00:44:42,998
And yeah, and now I'm happily home again.

599
00:44:42,998 --> 00:44:47,018
And you know, the saying, you can just do things.

600
00:44:47,018 --> 00:44:48,198
It's very true.

601
00:44:48,198 --> 00:44:52,657
But what people forget is that sometimes you can also just not do things and how great

602
00:44:52,657 --> 00:44:53,657
that is.

603
00:44:53,657 --> 00:44:56,778
You need recovery between these things.

604
00:44:57,157 --> 00:44:59,018
But coming up for me later this year is,

605
00:44:59,238 --> 00:45:03,477
next week on Sunday, I fly out to El Salvador

606
00:45:03,477 --> 00:45:06,218
for Bitcoin Historico and adopting Bitcoin.

607
00:45:06,438 --> 00:45:08,018
So that's going to be a lot of fun too.

608
00:45:08,538 --> 00:45:10,918
That looks like some exceptional programming

609
00:45:10,918 --> 00:45:12,857
for the Bitcoin Historico.

610
00:45:13,157 --> 00:45:14,438
That looks like a great lineup.

611
00:45:14,617 --> 00:45:15,457
A lot of marble.

612
00:45:17,198 --> 00:45:18,477
No, it's going to be great.

613
00:45:18,477 --> 00:45:21,818
And the venue is, of course, fantastic.

614
00:45:21,818 --> 00:45:27,498
the national palace like yeah that's it's kind of amazing hey how these bitcoin conferences are now

615
00:45:28,058 --> 00:45:33,657
just there's just the venues that were get i'm so is it um btc and dc a few weeks yeah yeah yeah

616
00:45:33,657 --> 00:45:39,337
tell me about that well it was you know it's at the kennedy center it's like yeah you know and

617
00:45:39,337 --> 00:45:45,818
the and the hotel that the conference hotel was the watergate hotel tomer i i had a chat with

618
00:45:45,818 --> 00:45:50,218
tomer straw light yesterday and he was also there and the kennedy center is where they inducted

619
00:45:50,218 --> 00:45:57,157
like Led Zeppelin into the rock and roll hall of fame and stuff right yeah exactly big like that

620
00:45:57,157 --> 00:46:01,938
yeah they do like the the Mark Twain prize for comedy every year which is a massive occasion

621
00:46:01,938 --> 00:46:08,817
so it's just amazing to be like you know here's a group of bitcoiners in these you know treasured

622
00:46:08,817 --> 00:46:13,298
halls all around the world this is kind of starting to happen where we're going from like

623
00:46:13,298 --> 00:46:20,398
you know the basement of like a hair salon to these these beautiful beautiful venues and you

624
00:46:20,398 --> 00:46:24,238
know i think everyone sees that too in the general public they see like oh what's happening here

625
00:46:24,238 --> 00:46:30,677
oh that bitcoin thing you guys have this venue so it has just this recognition in it now for for

626
00:46:30,677 --> 00:46:35,018
people like oh this is a serious serious industry we need to take it take more um

627
00:46:35,558 --> 00:46:41,778
you know more notice for me like the the journey of the last decade has just been i just keep

628
00:46:41,778 --> 00:46:48,018
pinching myself because it's it's it's retarded like i can't find a better word like that the

629
00:46:48,018 --> 00:46:55,298
coincidence the the amount of banana skids i've managed to slid on it's like yeah if that's even

630
00:46:55,298 --> 00:47:02,418
a word yeah slip on it's it's just it's just insane and i'm when you're in the midst of it

631
00:47:02,418 --> 00:47:06,657
you don't really think about it too much you just go with the flow and be yourself and do your best

632
00:47:06,657 --> 00:47:13,617
and whatnot but sometimes you take a step back and you think holy what is this thing so we have

633
00:47:13,617 --> 00:47:18,657
us luke and i have a saying head in the clouds feet on the ground so that that's what i try to

634
00:47:18,657 --> 00:47:25,137
live by you have to stay grounded and and like keep your together uh but still remember that

635
00:47:26,098 --> 00:47:33,137
crazy things can happen and it's it's not it's not uh if you if you aim for the stars you might

636
00:47:33,137 --> 00:47:40,758
reach the moon yeah that's beautifully put and you know it's also like recognition right that you

637
00:47:40,758 --> 00:47:46,738
you put in a lot of work early on and now as more and more people are coming to this space they

638
00:47:46,738 --> 00:47:52,758
you know recognize the work you've put in right and you you're just finally getting paid i guess

639
00:47:52,758 --> 00:47:59,877
in a way i mean you you experience it too uh it's we're we're on the same a very similar journey

640
00:47:59,877 --> 00:48:06,098
and it's home so um yeah you know like that so the spanish version of the treasury of sale is

641
00:48:06,098 --> 00:48:10,837
going to come out very very shortly and yeah very very excited about that i think it's a really

642
00:48:10,837 --> 00:48:15,758
important you know language to have especially for latin america and i reached out to ricardo

643
00:48:15,758 --> 00:48:19,418
selenas i'm like would you write the forward to this i know you and michael are friends he's like

644
00:48:19,418 --> 00:48:25,337
absolutely sends me a beautifully written forward couldn't you know couldn't have asked for more

645
00:48:25,337 --> 00:48:31,538
like what a generous generous guy and um i was talking to to my wife i'm like oh yeah she's like

646
00:48:31,538 --> 00:48:36,598
what are you doing i'm like oh i'm just editing this message i got from from um friend oh who's

647
00:48:36,598 --> 00:48:40,898
your friend oh it's this billionaire guy like oh michael no no the other billionaire it's like

648
00:48:40,898 --> 00:48:48,877
in what world would someone shit posting on twitter have access to this caliber of people

649
00:48:48,877 --> 00:48:57,098
right? It's just ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah, it absolutely is. Yeah, I have very, very, very

650
00:48:57,098 --> 00:49:04,457
similar experiences with this. And I think the I won't have it done by El Salvador, unfortunately,

651
00:49:05,098 --> 00:49:12,218
but Bitcoin, El Inverso del Mundo Payao, which is very well said, yes, Spanish translation will

652
00:49:12,218 --> 00:49:15,957
come out pretty soon, too. And I'm looking forward to that. Everything divided is all

653
00:49:15,957 --> 00:49:21,778
already there's already a spanish translation go to bitcoin infinity.com for more and brush your

654
00:49:21,778 --> 00:49:30,038
teeth and all that so yes no and and writing what's your book writing process like like how do you how

655
00:49:30,038 --> 00:49:37,177
do you write the book i i don't know if you find this but it gets easier each time and you you you

656
00:49:37,177 --> 00:49:42,298
kind of pick up earlier drafts of your work or a previous book you've written and you're almost like

657
00:49:42,298 --> 00:49:48,238
disgusted by it. Like, oh, I can't believe I, you know, wrote that or yeah, designed it that way.

658
00:49:48,418 --> 00:49:52,298
You know, I'd never do that now. I think that's a good thing. You're just continually trying to

659
00:49:52,298 --> 00:49:57,438
get better with the reader in mind. So with this book, it was a bit different because it's just all

660
00:49:57,438 --> 00:50:02,837
of Michael's words. I had, you know, he's done hundreds of interviews. So there's thousands of

661
00:50:02,837 --> 00:50:08,718
hours of content I was sifting through trying to find like the gems. And then luckily we have

662
00:50:08,718 --> 00:50:14,538
Twitter or X so that I would put samples out into the world and see what connected. So it's very low

663
00:50:14,538 --> 00:50:19,738
risk in that way. It literally just took all the greatest hits, Michael's greatest hits. And then

664
00:50:19,738 --> 00:50:23,357
like, okay, that's, that's going to be the book. And then you're just kind of stitching it together

665
00:50:23,357 --> 00:50:30,098
in a logical way. So, you know, not rocket science, but I guess I was the only one who was willing to

666
00:50:30,098 --> 00:50:34,137
spend a year doing it, which again, just shows you, you know, you don't have to be the smartest.

667
00:50:34,457 --> 00:50:38,598
You have to be the best at it. You just have to be the one willing to work the hardest. So

668
00:50:38,598 --> 00:50:41,918
And how visual is this book, like in comparison to the book?

669
00:50:41,918 --> 00:50:42,018
Very.

670
00:50:42,538 --> 00:50:45,798
Yeah, I made about 200 different graphics for it.

671
00:50:45,837 --> 00:50:47,377
About 100 made it into the book.

672
00:50:48,218 --> 00:50:51,718
So yeah, I'd say more material got cut out of it than ended up in it.

673
00:50:52,238 --> 00:50:55,278
So hopefully, you know, it explains it to pretty much anyone.

674
00:50:55,398 --> 00:50:59,438
The goal was that anyone could pick up this book and be able to comprehend what's going on.

675
00:50:59,538 --> 00:51:01,477
You don't need to have an understanding of physics.

676
00:51:01,738 --> 00:51:04,677
You don't need to know what the Cantillon effect is.

677
00:51:04,857 --> 00:51:07,018
Like you can grok what's happening.

678
00:51:07,018 --> 00:51:23,357
Because the way I see it, this might be a controversial opinion, but I think everyone can do proof of work. Few can do proof of results and actually produce something that people want.

679
00:51:23,357 --> 00:51:26,898
And few people have an actual unique talent.

680
00:51:27,117 --> 00:51:31,218
And yours, in my opinion, is with those visualizations

681
00:51:31,218 --> 00:51:37,238
because they're absolutely top-notch in teaching complex concepts

682
00:51:37,238 --> 00:51:40,137
in very accessible ways.

683
00:51:40,438 --> 00:51:42,058
And I think they're absolutely brilliant.

684
00:51:42,457 --> 00:51:43,477
Yeah, thank you. Appreciate that.

685
00:51:43,617 --> 00:51:45,578
The handbook is absolutely beautiful.

686
00:51:46,578 --> 00:51:49,337
And yeah, I'd love to do something together at one point.

687
00:51:49,477 --> 00:51:50,078
And we'll see.

688
00:51:50,177 --> 00:51:50,457
Absolutely.

689
00:51:50,457 --> 00:51:51,078
We'll see.

690
00:51:51,078 --> 00:51:53,418
I have some ideas for the future.

691
00:51:54,157 --> 00:51:56,998
But yeah, I usually write in the mornings

692
00:51:56,998 --> 00:51:59,798
because I've heard John Cleese say this once

693
00:51:59,798 --> 00:52:02,198
that you need not only not to be interrupted,

694
00:52:02,398 --> 00:52:04,918
but you need to know that you're not going to get interrupted

695
00:52:04,918 --> 00:52:07,578
in order for the creative uses to flow properly.

696
00:52:08,157 --> 00:52:10,078
I love his book, Creativity.

697
00:52:10,398 --> 00:52:11,698
I refer to it a lot.

698
00:52:11,938 --> 00:52:12,877
Yeah, it's great.

699
00:52:13,018 --> 00:52:13,418
So do I.

700
00:52:13,637 --> 00:52:14,877
It's a fantastic book.

701
00:52:14,977 --> 00:52:17,337
And I can't recommend the audiobook enough.

702
00:52:17,418 --> 00:52:18,317
It's a very short read.

703
00:52:18,317 --> 00:52:19,617
It's like around an hour,

704
00:52:19,617 --> 00:52:26,637
even shorter if you play it faster and he he reads his own book and laughs at his own jokes and it's

705
00:52:26,637 --> 00:52:34,198
just wonderful yeah so comedy is a great resource right because comedians have to put things complex

706
00:52:34,198 --> 00:52:41,498
ideas or very difficult things to comprehend into just the simplest format possible absolutely and

707
00:52:41,498 --> 00:52:47,637
i think comedian is probably the the hardest but most rewarding job in the world it's like

708
00:52:47,637 --> 00:52:52,538
because it's sort of like being an opera singer or a football player you have to be the absolute

709
00:52:52,538 --> 00:52:59,498
best to be good at all like sort of to get anywhere or metal musician for that matter you'll sort of

710
00:52:59,498 --> 00:53:04,198
have to be the absolute world class if if if it's going to count if it's going to be worth it at all

711
00:53:04,198 --> 00:53:09,377
if it's if you're going to make any money out of it or whatnot or make a career out of it might be

712
00:53:09,377 --> 00:53:16,218
better work but no i can't recommend that book enough it's it's absolutely great and i've i'm

713
00:53:16,218 --> 00:53:21,298
very fascinated with creativity in general and like how to how to tame it because it's such a

714
00:53:21,298 --> 00:53:26,718
strange beast because where do you start with the blank page where does it here's a question for you

715
00:53:26,718 --> 00:53:33,518
like do you actively try to come up with ideas or do they just kind of come to you and hit you in

716
00:53:33,518 --> 00:53:42,078
you know random points of the day a bit of both i'd say i i do i take shit long walks

717
00:53:42,078 --> 00:53:47,078
I average like around 17,000 steps a day.

718
00:53:47,457 --> 00:53:47,837
Wow.

719
00:53:48,038 --> 00:53:50,957
And with the goal of clearing your mind so that.

720
00:53:51,538 --> 00:53:52,857
That's a big part of it.

721
00:53:52,857 --> 00:53:58,157
Not every day, because sometimes I walk with my wife or with my brother or whatever.

722
00:53:58,898 --> 00:54:00,377
So it's not, it's different.

723
00:54:00,558 --> 00:54:07,058
But if I have a book in mind and I'm trying to like, I can sort of feel, you know, creatively constipated.

724
00:54:07,218 --> 00:54:09,198
If that's a good analogy.

725
00:54:09,198 --> 00:54:12,578
Like I have to like release something at some point.

726
00:54:12,578 --> 00:54:22,578
And then I walk around and try to find ideas that are good enough to pursue, because if they're not good enough to pursue, I won't get anywhere.

727
00:54:23,258 --> 00:54:24,578
I get writer's block sort of.

728
00:54:24,977 --> 00:54:26,198
And this has always been the case.

729
00:54:26,337 --> 00:54:32,477
And I love these creative tips, especially from musicians and comedians, of how to view this thing.

730
00:54:32,477 --> 00:54:35,738
And once you start something, like finish what you started.

731
00:54:35,738 --> 00:54:41,957
like if it's a section of a chapter or if the whole chapter like churn it out while while you're

732
00:54:41,957 --> 00:54:48,798
at it and while while the fire is still burning yes yes yeah what's it inspiration is perishable

733
00:54:48,798 --> 00:54:54,117
so you have to like act on it immediately yeah it's literally trying to catch lightning in a

734
00:54:54,117 --> 00:55:00,457
bottle sometimes and also this trey parker tip and that is to aim for 95 percent perfection and

735
00:55:00,457 --> 00:55:05,337
not a hundred because then you get if you aim for a hundred percent perfection you lose the momentum

736
00:55:05,337 --> 00:55:11,038
and you need the momentum as you said when you were looking back we were luke and i were re-editing

737
00:55:11,038 --> 00:55:17,157
all the older books slightly re-editing them just making them more readable it's still the same content

738
00:55:17,157 --> 00:55:23,718
we did quite a big or i did first and then us together quite big rewrite of the praxeology

739
00:55:23,718 --> 00:55:27,977
books it reads more like a textbook now added some chapters and whatnot and structured it

740
00:55:27,977 --> 00:55:28,657
slightly different

741
00:55:28,657 --> 00:55:28,957
things.

742
00:55:30,357 --> 00:55:31,117
And while you do

743
00:55:31,117 --> 00:55:32,738
all these things,

744
00:55:32,918 --> 00:55:33,218
you get

745
00:55:33,277 --> 00:55:40,677
better at at your craft actually so i consider myself a proper author now and not a proper author

746
00:55:40,677 --> 00:55:46,397
was he wrote the first book they still i mean it was still the first one was still good enough for

747
00:55:46,397 --> 00:55:53,237
michael to recommend it on hope.com but then i'm very proud of that but reading it now is like i can

748
00:55:53,237 --> 00:55:57,657
do so much better yeah but that's the important point right is that you're iterating that you can

749
00:55:57,657 --> 00:56:02,397
actually do that with a book you're literally upgrading it like software you're fixing all the

750
00:56:02,397 --> 00:56:07,517
bugs which you know you can't do with a piece of music say or film once it's out there in the world

751
00:56:07,517 --> 00:56:12,557
that's kind of usually it but yeah i think that's important to go back and try to make it better for

752
00:56:12,557 --> 00:56:16,277
the reader because you know you don't know what the lifespan of your books are going to have

753
00:56:16,277 --> 00:56:22,537
no and when directors specifically try to go and redo their movies like when they

754
00:56:22,537 --> 00:56:28,877
inserted 3d effects into the star wars movies for instance it was horrible like so because and i

755
00:56:28,877 --> 00:56:34,037
think that is because a movie or a music project is usually a group of people that

756
00:56:34,037 --> 00:56:36,377
make it magic and not a single person.

757
00:56:36,797 --> 00:56:47,997
And then the single person can think that they are they the one who made it magic magical But for Star Wars for instance George Lucas would have needed all of his entire team

758
00:56:48,197 --> 00:56:51,817
and they would have been in the right mindset to make it consistent.

759
00:56:52,137 --> 00:56:57,557
And that's why it looks so awful with the CGI that he shoehorned into it.

760
00:56:58,037 --> 00:56:59,497
So I think it's different with the book.

761
00:56:59,657 --> 00:57:02,357
And many of my favorite authors, they worked that way.

762
00:57:02,357 --> 00:57:05,737
They kept on reiterating, Mises in particular.

763
00:57:05,737 --> 00:57:12,377
I mean, human action is basically just the culmination of a lifetime of writing about economics.

764
00:57:13,337 --> 00:57:17,017
But Tolkien is another example, I guess.

765
00:57:17,737 --> 00:57:26,577
I mean, he spent years writing about these elves and gnomes and stuff and only finally made a masterpiece out of it.

766
00:57:26,937 --> 00:57:27,117
Yeah.

767
00:57:28,137 --> 00:57:28,657
Yeah.

768
00:57:29,577 --> 00:57:30,817
There's something to that.

769
00:57:31,737 --> 00:57:32,017
Yeah.

770
00:57:32,377 --> 00:57:32,777
Cool.

771
00:57:33,717 --> 00:57:35,217
This has been a lot of fun, man.

772
00:57:35,217 --> 00:57:39,057
It's great to catch up and chat the creative process.

773
00:57:39,317 --> 00:57:41,257
Yeah, I don't get to do that very often.

774
00:57:41,257 --> 00:57:42,757
It's very therapeutic.

775
00:57:42,757 --> 00:57:44,057
No, great.

776
00:57:44,057 --> 00:57:56,197
I love chatting about it too And I looking forward a lot to reading this book And I hope I get to see you at one of the conferences You say you not doing very many this year and I trying to cut down too

777
00:57:56,277 --> 00:57:57,877
but you never know with these things.

778
00:57:58,137 --> 00:58:00,577
All of a sudden, something comes up that you can't say no to.

779
00:58:01,137 --> 00:58:01,577
Exactly.

780
00:58:01,857 --> 00:58:03,057
Yeah, that's how it works.

781
00:58:03,057 --> 00:58:03,277
Yeah.

782
00:58:03,677 --> 00:58:06,937
Whether it's New Year's Eve parties or anything else.

783
00:58:07,377 --> 00:58:08,437
But we'll see.

784
00:58:08,577 --> 00:58:09,997
We'll see what happens in the future.

785
00:58:10,377 --> 00:58:12,557
And it's a pleasure to know you, man.

786
00:58:12,557 --> 00:58:15,057
and I wish you all the best

787
00:58:15,057 --> 00:58:16,997
and I hope we can do something in the future.

788
00:58:17,677 --> 00:58:18,117
Likewise.

789
00:58:18,497 --> 00:58:19,737
Yeah, I appreciate our friendship

790
00:58:19,737 --> 00:58:21,857
and yeah, say hi to Luke for me

791
00:58:21,857 --> 00:58:23,277
and look after yourself.

792
00:58:24,437 --> 00:58:24,657
Yeah.

793
00:58:24,957 --> 00:58:27,177
Finally, where do you want us

794
00:58:27,177 --> 00:58:29,097
to send our listeners on the internet?

795
00:58:29,277 --> 00:58:30,857
Where can they find this book?

796
00:58:30,977 --> 00:58:32,317
Where can they find other stuff,

797
00:58:32,737 --> 00:58:33,517
your other stuff?

798
00:58:33,697 --> 00:58:34,877
And is there anywhere else

799
00:58:34,877 --> 00:58:35,637
you want to send them?

800
00:58:36,177 --> 00:58:37,977
Yeah, if you just head to my X profile

801
00:58:37,977 --> 00:58:39,217
and Neil said so,

802
00:58:39,397 --> 00:58:40,137
everything's there.

803
00:58:40,377 --> 00:58:41,517
All the links are there.

804
00:58:41,517 --> 00:58:45,517
You can get all my books for free, get all my slide decks for free.

805
00:58:45,517 --> 00:58:47,857
There's an online course that I put together.

806
00:58:47,857 --> 00:58:48,857
It's free.

807
00:58:48,857 --> 00:59:08,017
So yeah head there if you want any of the resources And if I remember correctly you encourage people to use your slides in their own presentations right Yeah if you giving a talk at a meetup or a conference or you even just teaching your friends and family at home

808
00:59:09,237 --> 00:59:15,417
hopefully I've got enough slide decks now that there'll be one that might be useful for the audience that you're speaking to.

809
00:59:15,757 --> 00:59:17,397
It just kind of makes your life a bit easier.

810
00:59:17,397 --> 00:59:30,437
Yeah, and I bet if you've been to a Bitcoin conference, regardless if Anil was there or not, you've probably seen one of these at some talk somewhere because they're frequently used by other Bitcoiners and for a good reason.

811
00:59:30,957 --> 00:59:31,377
Yeah, cheers.

812
00:59:32,297 --> 00:59:35,637
Yeah, so check out Anil's book and other content.

813
00:59:36,117 --> 00:59:38,617
And Anil, it's a giant pleasure.

814
00:59:38,797 --> 00:59:39,137
Namaste.

815
00:59:39,477 --> 00:59:41,137
And thank you for being here.

816
00:59:41,477 --> 00:59:43,697
And until we meet again and the case is solved.

817
00:59:44,297 --> 00:59:45,137
Yeah, cheers, Knud.

818
00:59:45,257 --> 00:59:45,837
Thanks for the chat.

819
00:59:45,837 --> 00:59:49,657
This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Thanks for listening.