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Hunter, welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Nice to have you here.

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Good to see you, Gennett.

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Yeah, good to see you too. We had some long, interesting conversations in San Salvador just after adopting Bitcoin.

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I know I was done with all my talks and all my interviews and all of the other stuff I had done, both historical and adopting.

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and then I finally got the chance to relax a bit

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and that's when the real deep, interesting Bitcoin conversations happen.

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And you were part of some of that.

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I mean, I can't remember half of it, but we should...

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Yeah, what did we talk about in San Salvador? Do you remember?

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Yeah, we talked about it a lot.

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I especially remember when we spoke with Giacomo

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And we talked about the topic of arbitrary data on Bitcoin, also known as spam.

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That really kind of set a few gears in motion in my head, just kind of thinking, you know, like, what is the real impact of spam?

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Like, you know, is it really like a violation of the non-aggression principle?

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And if so, how much and what is the because here's the thing, like I got into Bitcoin not because I want to put JPEGs on a blockchain.

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Right. Like I get into Bitcoin because I learned about how bad central banking is and how like how much of an impact it has on our society that is not positive.

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And Bitcoin is the best nonviolent way to sort of get rid of that system in an organic and meritocratic way just by simply being better.

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And like, obviously, like there's more to it than just like, oh, this is the best thing.

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Like, because like if it was, then we'd all be using it already.

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Right.

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But there's a lot of a lot of problems with Bitcoin that, you know, still need solutions

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like privacy and scalability and things like that.

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But it is certainly good enough to replace all the money that we use today.

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It is the best money we have.

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And I would never want to jeopardize that through my own actions or encouraging like,

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you know, irresponsible behavior. I mean, like, here's the thing in a polite society, like we,

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we, we actually, there are a lot of things we don't do, or at least we discourage, we criminalize,

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we penalize, we, we say like, and, you know, and as, as, as libertarians or, or, or cypherpunks or,

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or, or however you want to call yourself as somebody who rejects the state, we often say

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that we don't need to be coerced or have a threat of force in order to do in order just to do the

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right thing. Additionally, we frown on things like that, that discount the future heavily,

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such as for lack of a better way of putting it, there seems to be some sort of like,

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weird, dark, I feel like we're really getting to it like immediately right, right into the podcast.

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But this is, but we know each other, we've had this conversation.

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No, no, no.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I think our listeners want the deep stuff instantly.

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Well, the thing is, like, I'm starting to become aware as just somebody who's not very religious.

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I do think that there is a sort of spiritual war going on that sort of like, you know, there's some dark stuff happening.

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I don't know if you've seen anything related to like Moloch worship or child sacrifice or just how that discounts the future heavily by essentially exploiting those who can defend themselves the least.

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Those are weird.

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I haven't looked into it, but it sort of makes sense that, you know, in ancient times you would sacrifice something vulnerable to.

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And it's like so many other things, it's humans, like not understanding cause and effect properly.

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And we reiterate.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Well, it's you do something because you believe that it will you use some means to try to reach an end of less uneasiness.

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And I think Aztecs, who sacrificed babies on top of pyramids, did so because they wanted to relieve some feltonaseness, like everything else a human being does.

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It's not stating anything. Praxeology itself is not stating whether something is good or bad. It's trying to be value-free in that sense.

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So it's only saying that, yeah, the person probably did or the person must have done this because they thought that the future would be better for them if they did so.

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That is a very grounded and I would say objective way to see that.

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Yeah, it's an objective way of viewing subjectivity. Like, I think it's one conversation with Robert Breedlove of all people that he said something that I think, like, put the nail on the head. Like, praxeology is to the subjective what mathematics is to the objective. And I think that's a perfect way of putting it. It's like the logic of the subjective rather than the logic of the objective.

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Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that makes sense, right? Like understanding incentives, first principles, some people call it like values investing or whatever. I think I'm not into investing stuff, but the only thing I put my money in is Bitcoin. But I don't really consider that investing so much as just saving. But yeah. What do you want to talk about?

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no we were i mean i i love this rabbit hole and i want to like i've done several interviews now

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with uh people on the core side people on the not side and and i've done my own takes like on other

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people's shows and regardless of what i do i get shit for it from the other side so so that's uh

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but but i love this meta discussion about the whole thing and i love the whole like you were

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talking about property rights and property rights violations in terms of spam. I'm soon

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interviewing Kansa, an Australian economist who's great. And he's always recommending a book by

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Conrad Graf, who's another great economist, called Are Bitcoins Ownable? And I haven't read the book,

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but the TLDR of it, as far as I know, is no, they're not ownable because it's just a string

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of information. So it's not really ownable. What is ownable, though, is the hardware you own and

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the software you run in your home. So your node is your property. And you have a right to defend

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that from malicious use. So that is the ownable part. But the funny thing about Bitcoin is,

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since it's just remembering a private key or the location of a private key, the pin code,

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the whatever, 12 magic words.

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It is just a string of information that gives you the ability to act as if you owned the

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thing because you control it.

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You sort of possess it, but possession is also too strong since its information is by

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its very nature not ownable.

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It's copyable.

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and even if the the secret is where your hardware wallet is located that information can be copied

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too so so in that sense it's not ownable by the definition ownership is a relationship

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a legal relationship between you and your property and according to natural law you have the rights

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to that if you homesteaded it or if you acquired it by

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unviolent means or what you thought was unviolent means.

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So, yeah, the thesis that I

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think I agree with is that the node is the actual thing

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you own. Interesting. I don't know about that for a number of reasons.

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One is, of course, you know, like civil attacks and

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node IP voting, right? Like that's not really like how Bitcoin

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works uh the and also like a private key isn't something that's supposed to be copied by others

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right or known by others like you're supposed to have sole possession of it in like a traditional

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single sick scenario and so uh like if you can keep a secret which is a big if of course um

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in this day and age.

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But essentially,

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it's a part of protecting your property

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is a secret,

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like is something that you can use.

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I mean, the secret,

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funny thing is that,

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sorry for interrupting,

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but the secret is the asset.

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There is no,

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there's nothing separating the secret

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from the asset.

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Like the Satoshis aren't really

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on the blockchain or the time chain.

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The digits are there,

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but the ability to move them,

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which is the important part,

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is the secret keeping it's all in our heads like that that's my thesis and that's what i'm

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like trying to that's the view of this that that makes most sense to me i mean i i can't i can't

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dispute the fact that you know this is all just like a social construct i mean it's it's literally

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a currency which is also a social construct it's predicated on the fact that we can design

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like better ways to protect custody based on the asymmetry that we get from public key

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cryptography.

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And so that used to actually be like military grade technology that, you know, that wasn't

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like commonly available to the individual.

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And so we have people like Daniel J. Bernstein and all the people, you know, in the 90s who

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were fighting for that, the right to encrypt.

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And we're very grateful for that because encryption and signatures and all that stuff is privacy tech.

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That's freedom tech.

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That's nonviolent resistance.

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It's almost like how you don't necessarily try to, like, train a cat.

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You can't necessarily, like, instruct a cat what to do or punish them.

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It doesn't make sense to do that.

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You simply have to just prevent them from doing something that you don't want them to do.

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Like confiscating sets, like the cat.

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That's the name of the fork, right?

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Yeah.

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You were talking about literal cats.

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Although that's really interesting stuff.

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I have a lot to say on that too.

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I mean, like one thing that, although I do recognize that there are good arguments against spamming the blockchain

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and making it harder for people to run nodes.

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And I mean, I think it's very important that we keep the block size small.

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I come from a generation of Bitcoiners that just kind of understood that's the case.

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I've also heard rather convincing arguments that, you know, there might be reason to increase the block size.

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But despite working directly for a big blocker for a year now at Mara as my supervisor,

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I still will not concede that we need to increase the block size. I will not. I mean, like, we're not going to litigate the block size wars if I have any say in it, other than just saying that we need to find other ways to scale, just as the financial system currently has other ways to scale.

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But the point I want to make about arbitrary data in particular, though, is that I think one of the engineering constraints we need to make sure we have solved is censorship resistance and in particular resistance against state actors.

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And when people bring up statist arguments like, oh, if CSAM or Mohammed is on the chain, then, you know, nation states will reject Bitcoin.

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I'm like, well, or go after node runners or something.

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I'm like, you know what?

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Like Bitcoin is designed to resist the state.

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And so however we need to do it in that we can make Bitcoin exist in a way that they can't interfere with while also allowing us to run whatever software we want in the privacy of our own homes.

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I think that's like the better engineering constraint than necessarily preventing data that some people might find to be objectionable.

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Okay, so I'm going to try to both dissect and devil's advocate that argument for the sake of conversation here.

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So when you say it's a social construct, I would use slightly different words.

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I call it an agreement on a fixed set of rules.

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And the reason we agree on this particular set of rules is that it's the only rule set known to man that is as robust as Bitcoin is.

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that has the 21 million coin limit, that has the halvings, that has the block intervals,

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like all of the things that we do agree on in Bitcoin.

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Like most of the parameters aren't mempool policy stuff.

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It actual consensual We have agreed to this and this is how it works So if that is true then code is not law but consensus is law which is what human beings agree upon So the thing enforcing

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the rules is not really proof of work. It's what software people choose to run. And when they run

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certain pieces of software, the proof of work works, but it works because we agree on a specific

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set of making it work, right? So with that out of the way, then the censorship resistance

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is not really in the code, but in what we allow, we as Bitcoiners collectively allow to go through

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the thing. And if we don't, some of us want to let some stuff through and others do not want to let

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some stuff through. That's why we run different mempool policy filters, right? And the different

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filter policies, depending on our own preference on our own node. And some people say this is

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completely inefficient because they will be routed around and it's a network that signals to, it goes

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fast anyway, and you need like 92% at least to have any effect at all. Still, the thing that at

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the end of the day sets the rules and carves the path forward is what we collectively agree upon

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is the limits of the thing. So yeah, I'm struggling to find words a bit here. But I think, for instance,

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this catfork that has been proposed, just the threat of that and the notion that something

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that like that could happen has already decreased the spammers incentive it has already removed some

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of the incentive for doing bad shit because all of a sudden everyone's reminded that holy shit we're

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we're doing something that people people accept but do not approve of like people unwillingly

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accept relaying it but they do not approve of it they they do not endorse it it has a sort of

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moderating influence yeah so so and who knows what happens in the future and this is this is

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like the the meta thing that i'm missing from the whole debate is like it's all about human beings

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and what they choose to do or not do in the end and that's what it is and and then that's why

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there's discussions of whether spam is an actual property rights violation or not and i don't think

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it is. I think it is like, but nor is it a property rights violation for me if I receive

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spam from someone to choose to not relay it to others. Because no one forces me to relay anything.

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No one forces me to run the node. Like none of this would work if that was the case. So in your

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opinion, like where in the greater scheme of things, what secures Bitcoin? Like what makes this

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robust? Well, there's a few factors. It's not necessarily cryptographically secure in its own

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right. It's crypto economically secured. There's, you know, a market, there's a value for the energy

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required to secure it. And so it's definitely more real than proof of stake, which is also more

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vulnerable to like a 34% attack instead of a 51% attack. But I mean, what secures Bitcoin is the

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belief that it's valuable and the people who support the protocol and in the various ways that

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it's designed to be supported and used. And that sort of disincentivizes many different kinds of

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attacks, including civil attacks and DDoS and spam of various kinds. People would say like fees are

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the best filter, right?

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Yeah.

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I mean, the real threat in spam is not that spam would be, there would be so much spam

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that it would hinder people from, or disincentivize people from actually using Bitcoin as money.

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And therefore it loses its value and therefore every other proposition.

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That would be a huge problem if that was the case.

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Yes, yes.

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So that could be a potential state attack.

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Like if we can just spam this spend, if we can print a billion dollars of spam in the

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network, we can stop it from functioning and thereby people lose interest. And then it goes

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to underground again for a long, long time, hundreds of years. Yeah. What's ironic is that

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like state actors don't necessarily think that way, though. They think of like

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markets and manipulating markets. They think of being able to print money and make laws.

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They think of just like a bunch of other fake and gay bullshit that they like to do that Bitcoin

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just completely sidesteps and they don't really think about like the actual like fundamentals

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necessarily no i don't believe so either like it's this dilemma between is the state this

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is it the deep state and everyone's super smart and these secret agents and evil evil

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villains in their lairs or is the state just fucking stupid yeah like it can't be both

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lifelong bureaucrat well i mean it kind of can right because like i mean in the case of the

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united states like there is a deep state and it's pretty fucking gnarly yeah yeah yeah but

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yeah it's it's probably not at this stage what what the people who like started these institutions

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up uh like what what they envisioned it's not what they are right now the fbi is not others

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like would they agree with the deep no no they would not they would yeah in fact the deep state

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is very anti-liberal, actually, like classically liberal.

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Yeah.

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If you go back to the constitution, like they would just shake their heads and say, what

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the fuck are these people on?

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There's a ton of shit that the government does that is completely unconstitutional.

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Like even just like laws states make up, like there are unconstitutional laws, the Second

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Amendment, even First Amendment, there are things that are just like blatantly, but there's

207
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still laws on the books.

208
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And it's just a reminder that, you know, the laws of man are made up, right?

209
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Like, like there, there, there, there's something that that humans made.

210
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Humans are flawed.

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And, you know, that we're just not making sense.

212
00:20:06,774 --> 00:20:10,774
And also, I want to want to get back to you mentioned the cat.

213
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And, you know, like, although I'm not necessarily supportive of the idea of oracleizing Bitcoin in a way that would like make it ordinals aware or stamps aware,

214
00:20:24,314 --> 00:20:26,694
because then you only need one more Oracle

215
00:20:26,694 --> 00:20:28,234
to make it OFAC aware, right?

216
00:20:29,534 --> 00:20:30,814
Yeah, but you also need consensus.

217
00:20:31,434 --> 00:20:32,114
Oh, of course.

218
00:20:32,714 --> 00:20:35,934
Well, actually, also the cat isn't based on...

219
00:20:35,934 --> 00:20:38,354
Wait, is that a consensus change?

220
00:20:39,674 --> 00:20:40,674
Well...

221
00:20:40,674 --> 00:20:45,814
So like bit.10 or 444 formally,

222
00:20:46,454 --> 00:20:49,194
that's definitely consensus change.

223
00:20:49,194 --> 00:20:54,934
that's as more as a relay is a policy a mempool policy change right but

224
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and the cat is specifically so good so good targeting these things but but but i want to

225
00:21:02,314 --> 00:21:10,234
make a point about the cat and so i agree with you that it's it's very existence and sort of

226
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popularity amongst a certain faction of bitcoiners is a bit of a moderating influence on usage of the

227
00:21:18,154 --> 00:21:25,074
protocol broadly. It likely has an impact on these markets that, you know, maybe make one

228
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Bitcoin a day selling JPEG pictures or something. And that's just not a very robust or deep market

229
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by any means. The thing is, I recently became a backer, like a financial sponsor of Brian Lunduk

230
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of the Lendik Journal.

231
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He's a kind of a podcaster journalist

232
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who, I'll call him a citizen journalist

233
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just because journalism has become

234
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such a sullied profession,

235
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almost like disrespected.

236
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Regardless, Lendik, I like the guy

237
00:22:01,454 --> 00:22:05,514
because he's, even though he hates Rust,

238
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he sees it as a negative fact.

239
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And I've been a Rust developer since 2018.

240
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I think it's important to push back on the radical leftists who would like to politicize and infiltrate and corrupt open source meritocracy.

241
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And so like open source should be a meritocracy of the marketplace of ideas.

242
00:22:32,874 --> 00:22:43,634
Right. And so things should be based on their merit and not necessarily who introduced them or what they what they believed politically that has no bearing really on like kernel drivers.

243
00:22:43,634 --> 00:23:01,514
Right. Like it's it's it's it's dumb. And so I'm supportive of things that push back on things that corrupt an ideology that that that is counter to what is essentially merit based.

244
00:23:01,514 --> 00:23:13,694
And instead trying to push ideology, which is basically religion, like it's just it's not it's not necessarily like anything founded in truth or objective reality.

245
00:23:13,694 --> 00:23:19,874
They're trying to push back against it with sort of social consent, sort of like peer pressure.

246
00:23:20,054 --> 00:23:25,834
Right. And so like it's that I'm I'm supportive of of things like that.

247
00:23:25,834 --> 00:23:30,534
And so I think cat kind of the cat, I mean, is similar, is similar.

248
00:23:30,614 --> 00:23:31,654
I'm supportive of it. Right.

249
00:23:31,754 --> 00:23:36,474
I don't necessarily want that to become how Bitcoin works.

250
00:23:36,474 --> 00:23:44,814
But that said, I support the ideas behind it in at least at a high level.

251
00:23:44,954 --> 00:23:50,794
Maybe not necessarily the implementation details, but I definitely like resonate with the thinking behind it.

252
00:23:50,794 --> 00:24:02,674
I also am careful about any kind of change to Bitcoin because, I mean, I don't know about you, but like we live in a in a in a fucking clown world.

253
00:24:02,674 --> 00:24:11,954
And I have to have to admit, like one of the few things keeping me like grounded, insane and not running for the hills to like join a militia to like fight against the deep state is.

254
00:24:12,474 --> 00:24:17,574
Yeah, it's Bitcoin is the fact that I can sort of, you know, I have a mission that is nonviolent right now.

255
00:24:17,574 --> 00:24:29,574
And if that mission becomes compromised, however it may be, you know, I will likely, my future will have a very different outcome, I think, knowing what I know now.

256
00:24:30,154 --> 00:24:33,894
Yeah, 100%. I mean, yeah, I try not to be a cynic.

257
00:24:34,014 --> 00:24:45,994
And I guess I tried to be an optimist before Bitcoin too, but it's certainly easier to be optimistic about the future when Bitcoin exists than before it did.

258
00:24:45,994 --> 00:24:47,374
Yes, exactly.

259
00:24:47,574 --> 00:24:55,214
much more so but the principles it's built upon are still true and it's still existed before and

260
00:24:55,214 --> 00:25:02,014
will exist after if there is an after i mean like laws are man-made you say but i love the idea of

261
00:25:02,014 --> 00:25:09,994
natural law and libertarian thought of or rather praxeological law natural law whatever you want

262
00:25:09,994 --> 00:25:19,294
to call it, like first law that is discovered rather than just conjured up by some dude

263
00:25:19,294 --> 00:25:23,194
who thinks one thing is better than another.

264
00:25:23,194 --> 00:25:26,554
And I do believe that laws are discoverable.

265
00:25:26,554 --> 00:25:30,954
You can, if the goal, you always have to have some if, right?

266
00:25:30,954 --> 00:25:37,594
And if the goal is civilization, if the goal is civilized society, then laws are definitely

267
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discoverable.

268
00:25:38,654 --> 00:25:39,974
And it's property rights.

269
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That's the thing.

270
00:25:40,674 --> 00:25:45,294
There's only one human right that can be universal and for all times,

271
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and that is the right to be left alone.

272
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So I think all other thinking around this and what we ought to do and ought not to do

273
00:25:53,794 --> 00:25:57,894
and what ought to be forbidden or not should be based on that.

274
00:25:58,514 --> 00:26:01,694
And that can be tricky because there's so much nuance,

275
00:26:01,694 --> 00:26:04,314
and it's kind of hard to get to the core truth of it.

276
00:26:04,494 --> 00:26:09,674
But if you do, if you have this cemented grounding or whatever you may call it,

277
00:26:09,974 --> 00:26:13,554
to base your philosophy on, then it becomes easy.

278
00:26:13,754 --> 00:26:16,254
What is and what isn't property theft?

279
00:26:16,254 --> 00:26:21,494
I have the opportunity to ask somebody much wiser than me on this topic,

280
00:26:21,734 --> 00:26:27,634
this question that I get sometimes where, you know, like the ideas behind,

281
00:26:27,834 --> 00:26:32,434
you know, anarcho-capitalism or, you know, anything on that level,

282
00:26:32,674 --> 00:26:37,414
towards that direction of freedom-minded, voluntary exchange of goods and services

283
00:26:37,414 --> 00:26:43,454
is there are people who will use their money to do bad things.

284
00:26:44,354 --> 00:26:49,854
And like, how is like, how should we handle that?

285
00:26:50,314 --> 00:26:51,494
Define bad things.

286
00:26:53,174 --> 00:26:59,694
In particular, I think one of the more common arguments against that kind of philosophy

287
00:26:59,694 --> 00:27:06,494
is that an anarcho-capitalist, powerful person

288
00:27:06,494 --> 00:27:09,694
could create some kind of child slavery or something.

289
00:27:10,274 --> 00:27:12,614
Yeah, like we have now, public schooling.

290
00:27:13,694 --> 00:27:16,694
Yeah, that's pretty nonsense.

291
00:27:17,054 --> 00:27:19,514
I'm supportive of dismantling the Department of Education.

292
00:27:19,514 --> 00:27:24,974
The way I see it, we already live in Ancapistan, and we always did.

293
00:27:25,334 --> 00:27:28,554
It's just that some bad actors have a lot of influence on others.

294
00:27:28,554 --> 00:27:35,114
Like the most violent gang, the gang with a monopoly on violence in a territory, they

295
00:27:35,114 --> 00:27:38,714
can coerce people into certain behaviors.

296
00:27:38,714 --> 00:27:41,214
That's what we're living in.

297
00:27:41,214 --> 00:27:54,989
And it not really a political philosophy it more of a lens to view the world through Is this morally right or wrong And if it theft it wrong If it property violation

298
00:27:54,989 --> 00:28:00,589
it's wrong. And that goes for any type of aggression. If I take your stuff or if I

299
00:28:00,589 --> 00:28:05,469
violate your body, I'm doing something wrong. If I'm not, I'm not doing anything wrong.

300
00:28:05,469 --> 00:28:12,669
wrong. Like if I litter, for instance, on my property or in nature and no one's property,

301
00:28:13,369 --> 00:28:19,269
like who's to say what littering is? Who gets to define it? Like, did I litter or did I alter

302
00:28:19,269 --> 00:28:25,929
nature to make it into my whatever I wanted it to be, to art or whatever, if I tape a banana to a

303
00:28:25,929 --> 00:28:33,749
tree? So in my mind, it's pretty simple. Victimless crimes aren't crimes. And also I hear this all

304
00:28:33,749 --> 00:28:40,689
the time from people who misinterpret anarcho-capitalism that everyone's going to scam everyone else.

305
00:28:40,689 --> 00:28:49,969
But scamming is not free market. It's a crime. It's also a crime in Ancapistan. A free market

306
00:28:49,969 --> 00:28:58,569
does not mean a market where you get to take people's stuff by being insincere. A scam is

307
00:28:58,569 --> 00:29:05,849
a breach of contract is deliberately fooling someone to steal their stuff so that is not

308
00:29:05,849 --> 00:29:15,249
a part of the free market a an nft is in a gray zone i would say because you could claim that it

309
00:29:15,249 --> 00:29:22,149
has value to some to to have access to a certain but you can also pretty easily make the case that

310
00:29:22,149 --> 00:29:28,329
that is true for this like if it's that's why all the cryptos survive right because the same logic

311
00:29:28,329 --> 00:29:32,709
can be applied to them as to Bitcoin in a certain sense.

312
00:29:33,289 --> 00:29:35,049
But if you look under the hood,

313
00:29:35,129 --> 00:29:37,289
you see that the Satoshi is truly special

314
00:29:37,289 --> 00:29:41,069
and has events like the block size wars and stuff

315
00:29:41,069 --> 00:29:43,989
to prove that it's actually decentralized and secure

316
00:29:43,989 --> 00:29:45,209
and you can't be rugged.

317
00:29:45,209 --> 00:29:46,929
None of the others have it.

318
00:29:46,929 --> 00:29:49,409
The idea that all value is subjective.

319
00:29:50,309 --> 00:29:51,749
Absolutely. And dynamic.

320
00:29:52,229 --> 00:29:53,589
And so in a way,

321
00:29:53,749 --> 00:29:57,049
like if somebody finds an NFT subjectively valuable

322
00:29:57,049 --> 00:30:06,869
and they like voluntarily throughout without coercion voluntarily like exchange their money

323
00:30:06,869 --> 00:30:13,789
for it then you know like yeah it's hard to classify the fraud though the fraud though is not

324
00:30:13,789 --> 00:30:19,349
in that they find it valuable the fraud is in that they say it's non-fungible and that it's a token

325
00:30:19,349 --> 00:30:23,789
because it's not non-fungible you can put the same picture you can right click on the picture

326
00:30:23,789 --> 00:30:26,189
and save it to your computer and you have exactly.

327
00:30:26,809 --> 00:30:28,169
And also, like...

328
00:30:28,169 --> 00:30:29,749
There's a misunderstanding of NFTs though, right?

329
00:30:29,769 --> 00:30:32,349
Because an NFT is more of just a proof of purchase, really.

330
00:30:32,829 --> 00:30:38,469
Yes, but for instance, it's the proof of purchase of a picture.

331
00:30:38,909 --> 00:30:43,609
But that is the same as proof of purchase of a star in the Andromeda galaxy.

332
00:30:44,489 --> 00:30:48,389
Because if it's on the time chain, everyone can see it.

333
00:30:48,509 --> 00:30:49,389
I can see it.

334
00:30:49,389 --> 00:30:53,169
I may need a third-party website to see the picture.

335
00:30:53,169 --> 00:31:01,549
but it's the data is there for everyone to see and i as the owner have no other things to do with it

336
00:31:01,549 --> 00:31:08,949
than anyone else has so the very notion of ownership is that's the scam that's where the

337
00:31:08,949 --> 00:31:14,329
scam lies you can't really own it because you can't do anything with it that everyone else can't

338
00:31:14,329 --> 00:31:19,209
well it's sort of like the like it's the same problem of like tokenizing real world assets

339
00:31:19,209 --> 00:31:20,769
That's a sort of Oracle problem, right?

340
00:31:21,669 --> 00:31:26,429
Yeah, token makes no sense to me since everything in the computing realm is copyable.

341
00:31:26,429 --> 00:31:30,309
I mean, this is why I fell in love with Bitcoin in the first place.

342
00:31:30,409 --> 00:31:36,749
It's because the promise of something on the internet that couldn't be copied, or rather something in computing that couldn't be copied.

343
00:31:36,969 --> 00:31:38,409
I found that outrageous.

344
00:31:38,729 --> 00:31:40,589
Like, how can something not be copyable?

345
00:31:40,589 --> 00:31:41,429
It's an incredible idea.

346
00:31:41,429 --> 00:31:50,929
Yeah, and so like NFTs, like they might be able to have the same arbitrary data, some kind of JPEG or whatever.

347
00:31:51,389 --> 00:31:56,209
You can copy and right click save and create a new one, but it won't be the same one.

348
00:31:56,929 --> 00:32:00,449
There's a, you know, like there's a record, right?

349
00:32:00,469 --> 00:32:03,049
A historical record of that proof of purchase.

350
00:32:03,929 --> 00:32:07,329
Yeah, but claiming that that record is immutable, that's what's wrong.

351
00:32:07,329 --> 00:32:15,889
Like even if it's on the Bitcoin blockchain, it still requires a third-party website to actually assign the ownership.

352
00:32:16,349 --> 00:32:17,749
You can run an index or you run your own.

353
00:32:19,049 --> 00:32:23,509
Yeah, but there's no proof that that will last forever.

354
00:32:25,109 --> 00:32:26,429
It will last as long as Bitcoin lasts?

355
00:32:28,449 --> 00:32:29,409
Not necessarily.

356
00:32:29,589 --> 00:32:31,709
If the cat, for instance, happens, it won't.

357
00:32:32,469 --> 00:32:35,829
So they're making an empty promise even from that perspective.

358
00:32:35,829 --> 00:32:50,089
To some degree, but like I would suppose that I mean that whether Bitcoin will be amenable to arbitrary data forever is probably hard to say.

359
00:32:50,089 --> 00:32:55,869
However, and yes, things like the cat would essentially remove the capability to spend them.

360
00:32:56,289 --> 00:33:04,469
And so it would essentially have like a like a chilling effect on the market for it.

361
00:33:04,469 --> 00:33:12,889
But there's also like that doesn't necessarily disincentivize or prevent the archival use case, which is kind of like similar but different.

362
00:33:12,889 --> 00:33:24,989
And so like the thing is, like we can't necessarily go back and just like take out all that has currently been mined on without like making unverifiable.

363
00:33:25,309 --> 00:33:25,469
Right.

364
00:33:26,529 --> 00:33:27,709
No, no, I know.

365
00:33:27,849 --> 00:33:31,609
But so that is the promise that the NFT salesman sells you.

366
00:33:31,609 --> 00:33:38,609
However, my point is that the promise is not as robust as advertised.

367
00:33:39,749 --> 00:33:41,429
And therein lies part of the scam.

368
00:33:41,809 --> 00:33:45,209
The other part of the scam is that you can't really own data.

369
00:33:46,049 --> 00:33:48,789
Like, data is by its very nature not ownable.

370
00:33:49,569 --> 00:33:51,209
All you can have is a receipt.

371
00:33:51,209 --> 00:33:54,169
If you're the only person who owns a private key, then are you not the only owner?

372
00:33:54,409 --> 00:33:59,529
But my whole argument from the beginning here, and this is quite fun, I think,

373
00:33:59,529 --> 00:34:02,309
because we're doing this argument thing here now,

374
00:34:02,409 --> 00:34:05,209
is that a Satoshi is not really ownable.

375
00:34:05,569 --> 00:34:07,269
You can just act as if you own it

376
00:34:07,269 --> 00:34:09,449
because if you have access to the secret.

377
00:34:09,889 --> 00:34:12,008
The secret gives you the superpower

378
00:34:12,008 --> 00:34:14,669
of acting as if you owned it,

379
00:34:14,809 --> 00:34:17,189
but it's not physically ownable.

380
00:34:17,409 --> 00:34:19,129
It's not by definition.

381
00:34:19,129 --> 00:34:20,488
You cannot own data.

382
00:34:20,508 --> 00:34:22,729
You could be the only owner of a secret key, though.

383
00:34:23,749 --> 00:34:25,949
I would say you can be the knower,

384
00:34:26,229 --> 00:34:28,229
but you have no way of knowing

385
00:34:28,229 --> 00:34:30,769
if someone else knows the same key or not.

386
00:34:30,929 --> 00:34:33,909
I cannot prove that I'm the only owner of a key.

387
00:34:34,529 --> 00:34:36,249
I can find it plausible.

388
00:34:36,508 --> 00:34:37,829
There might be ways to do that, actually.

389
00:34:37,988 --> 00:34:38,689
There's a couple of ways.

390
00:34:38,689 --> 00:34:42,469
One is through quantum computers,

391
00:34:43,169 --> 00:34:44,909
because they can detect eavesdropping.

392
00:34:45,449 --> 00:34:48,329
And that's one of the more, how would you say?

393
00:34:51,289 --> 00:34:52,449
Okay, yeah.

394
00:34:52,569 --> 00:34:54,029
I hear you coming from this

395
00:34:54,029 --> 00:34:56,169
from a much more technical approach

396
00:34:56,169 --> 00:34:58,329
and me from the much more philosophical approach.

397
00:34:58,549 --> 00:35:00,609
Because I think a good balance, right?

398
00:35:00,769 --> 00:35:01,409
Yeah, absolutely.

399
00:35:01,629 --> 00:35:02,549
That's where we want to meet.

400
00:35:03,429 --> 00:35:06,789
That's the part of the Venn diagram that we're looking for here.

401
00:35:07,549 --> 00:35:08,849
It's a good conversation.

402
00:35:09,049 --> 00:35:12,789
I mean, you're obviously a master of your craft.

403
00:35:12,969 --> 00:35:13,409
With respect.

404
00:35:13,969 --> 00:35:18,049
I've been practicing mine for 13 or 14 years now.

405
00:35:18,469 --> 00:35:23,289
I feel like I'm a skilled enough protocol engineer now

406
00:35:23,289 --> 00:35:27,549
that I could speak to Bitcoin with some measure of,

407
00:35:27,549 --> 00:35:30,669
I don't want to say the word authority,

408
00:35:30,988 --> 00:35:34,649
but some measure of experience and skill.

409
00:35:34,649 --> 00:35:35,789
Some gravitas.

410
00:35:36,309 --> 00:35:36,629
Yes.

411
00:35:37,508 --> 00:35:38,469
That's a good word.

412
00:35:38,809 --> 00:35:41,669
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413
00:35:42,008 --> 00:35:44,409
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414
00:35:44,409 --> 00:35:47,529
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415
00:35:47,529 --> 00:35:53,149
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416
00:35:53,149 --> 00:35:58,469
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417
00:35:58,809 --> 00:36:04,749
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418
00:36:04,749 --> 00:36:10,769
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419
00:36:10,769 --> 00:36:16,508
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420
00:36:16,508 --> 00:36:22,469
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421
00:36:22,469 --> 00:36:29,409
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422
00:36:29,789 --> 00:36:33,929
And the software that comes along with it has a fantastic user interface.

423
00:36:34,189 --> 00:36:36,049
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424
00:36:36,309 --> 00:36:38,089
It's easy to use and it's super secure.

425
00:36:38,429 --> 00:36:40,689
It's my personal favorite hardware wallet.

426
00:36:41,069 --> 00:36:45,549
It's super slick, super privacy focused and super easy to use.

427
00:36:45,549 --> 00:36:53,869
So go to bitbox.swiss and use code infinity for a discount.

428
00:36:54,249 --> 00:36:54,829
Check it out now.

429
00:36:55,189 --> 00:36:57,109
By the way, we're doing this in the wrong order.

430
00:36:57,429 --> 00:37:03,329
My first question ought to be, Hunter, please tell our listeners who the fuck you are.

431
00:37:03,589 --> 00:37:06,409
Because they don't know you.

432
00:37:06,508 --> 00:37:07,989
So introduce yourself, please.

433
00:37:07,989 --> 00:37:15,429
Well, I mean, if you go by what you hear about at X, I'm just like this gay furry that's attacking Bitcoin.

434
00:37:15,549 --> 00:37:18,429
and I talk about quadric computers a lot.

435
00:37:18,549 --> 00:37:18,669
Yeah.

436
00:37:20,029 --> 00:37:22,249
What are you apart from a gay furry?

437
00:37:22,949 --> 00:37:24,409
Yeah, well, I mean...

438
00:37:24,409 --> 00:37:24,749
The interesting stuff.

439
00:37:25,749 --> 00:37:28,209
That's probably the least interesting part of me, actually.

440
00:37:28,309 --> 00:37:28,609
You're right.

441
00:37:28,869 --> 00:37:29,689
And it's funny.

442
00:37:30,609 --> 00:37:36,329
I mean, like, I'm married to a guy.

443
00:37:36,449 --> 00:37:37,869
It's legal here now, you know?

444
00:37:37,869 --> 00:37:44,289
I mean, we have discussed perhaps a divorce just to own the libs,

445
00:37:44,508 --> 00:37:45,329
just because we can.

446
00:37:45,549 --> 00:37:48,609
Right. You know, yeah.

447
00:37:48,829 --> 00:37:55,109
But did your baker bake a cake and what was their struggle getting the cake baked?

448
00:37:55,349 --> 00:37:58,149
Like I hear these strange stories from the U.S.

449
00:37:58,409 --> 00:38:02,929
Oh, we did not have a formal wedding of any kind.

450
00:38:04,849 --> 00:38:07,609
Back then it was just like, you know, like this is what gays did.

451
00:38:07,689 --> 00:38:10,069
You get go to the courthouse, you get you file some paperwork.

452
00:38:10,069 --> 00:38:13,089
And then I'm thinking, you know, back on that.

453
00:38:13,089 --> 00:38:16,469
And I'm just like, wow, like, like that's that's that's really statist bullshit.

454
00:38:16,469 --> 00:38:20,309
Like, you know, like, like, I mean, are you married?

455
00:38:21,089 --> 00:38:26,749
Yes. And I did a statist marriage because I didn't want to do it in church because I'm not religious.

456
00:38:27,269 --> 00:38:30,109
And I realized in hindsight, like, what the fuck?

457
00:38:30,349 --> 00:38:34,409
I like Christianity more than I like the state, even though I dislike both.

458
00:38:34,409 --> 00:38:42,349
like no no i i like i like uh christianity a lot too even though um that there is uh some measure

459
00:38:42,349 --> 00:38:47,149
of like rejection other other other other you can you can reject certain parts of christianity

460
00:38:47,149 --> 00:38:52,629
say homosexuality or wrong which like i i don't really want to like dwell too much in that but

461
00:38:52,629 --> 00:38:57,969
the thing is um it's i think what i will say is that it's not for everybody because if everybody

462
00:38:57,969 --> 00:39:02,209
was gay then like we wouldn't have another generation to hand everything to you know like

463
00:39:02,209 --> 00:39:03,549
It would be the end of the human race.

464
00:39:03,729 --> 00:39:06,789
Yeah, it would be great for that generation, I'm sure.

465
00:39:06,929 --> 00:39:08,469
But then it would all be over.

466
00:39:08,789 --> 00:39:16,549
It would either that or we enter some kind of weird transhumanist like dystopia where the next generation is growing in the pods, comrade.

467
00:39:17,309 --> 00:39:17,569
Yeah.

468
00:39:19,409 --> 00:39:25,769
But yeah, I am a developer and for the role of engineer.

469
00:39:25,769 --> 00:39:35,109
I don't have a formal education, so I'm reluctant to accept the title of engineer, but that's essentially my title.

470
00:39:35,309 --> 00:39:37,369
I act as a protocol engineer.

471
00:39:38,229 --> 00:39:44,889
And I have a pretty good understanding of photography, but there's still a lot I don't know.

472
00:39:45,508 --> 00:39:53,609
I'm still learning a lot of things from the great people who have worked in that field, like Dan J. Bernstein and also Ethan Hellman.

473
00:39:53,609 --> 00:40:03,289
He's a co-author of MyBip, and he's a trained cryptographer who works at Cloudflare.

474
00:40:03,809 --> 00:40:06,729
Which company do you like less, Mara or Cloudflare?

475
00:40:07,649 --> 00:40:10,909
I would say Mara because I know more about them.

476
00:40:11,309 --> 00:40:11,909
But, yeah.

477
00:40:12,508 --> 00:40:22,069
Yeah, I mean, I would say that Cloudflare has done more to harm the Internet than really any other company.

478
00:40:22,069 --> 00:40:26,508
But also, I mean, arguably, they provide a lot of utility as well.

479
00:40:26,729 --> 00:40:28,769
I should be fair and not necessarily.

480
00:40:30,789 --> 00:40:31,349
Yeah.

481
00:40:31,508 --> 00:40:33,969
But anyway, you know, there's a lot to be said.

482
00:40:34,209 --> 00:40:35,949
But do you work for Mara now?

483
00:40:36,609 --> 00:40:39,029
So I am a contractor.

484
00:40:39,729 --> 00:40:40,029
Okay.

485
00:40:40,029 --> 00:40:54,149
And also, they might actually split out some of their more philanthropic stuff at some point in the future.

486
00:40:54,569 --> 00:40:59,889
So it'll probably be a different organization, but maybe with some kind of funding.

487
00:41:00,289 --> 00:41:00,589
I don't know.

488
00:41:01,209 --> 00:41:04,929
Can you make Mara stop doing stupid shit somehow?

489
00:41:04,929 --> 00:41:14,669
Well, I mean, I mean, like, I think that's a that's a complicated question, right?

490
00:41:14,669 --> 00:41:46,003
Because like I mean if you think of Mara as a state corporation that has a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders to maximize value extraction like they essentially they legally obligated to extract as much fees from operation however they can right Oh but this is given that they denominating they equivalent they denominate in dollars

491
00:41:46,003 --> 00:41:47,403
is what I'm trying to say here.

492
00:41:47,503 --> 00:41:50,283
If they were actually concerned about their shareholders

493
00:41:50,283 --> 00:41:53,363
and their miners or their hash salesmen,

494
00:41:53,623 --> 00:41:59,163
their main objective would be to make sats last forever.

495
00:41:59,943 --> 00:42:02,163
Like the longevity of the Bitcoin network

496
00:42:02,163 --> 00:42:03,543
would be top priority, right?

497
00:42:03,543 --> 00:42:28,143
Of course. But the thing is, they're state capitalists, right? Like, like, like the thing is, I, as an agorist, I sort of identify more with agorist thinking and that they make a distinction between, you know, an ordinary like entrepreneur who isn't necessarily trying to benefit from the monopoly and violence that the state has to their own personal benefit, like state capitalist or Cantalian or Wood, right?

498
00:42:28,143 --> 00:42:40,183
Like, I think that sort of like as a state corporation, they have to play by the fiat game.

499
00:42:40,543 --> 00:42:46,823
And the fiat game isn't like to make long term investments that pay off well into the future.

500
00:42:47,023 --> 00:42:50,443
It's to make as much money as possible for shareholders now.

501
00:42:51,303 --> 00:42:53,043
Which is so retarded.

502
00:42:53,483 --> 00:42:54,183
Like that is the case.

503
00:42:54,183 --> 00:42:55,043
I don't disagree with that.

504
00:42:55,383 --> 00:42:56,383
I don't disagree with that.

505
00:42:56,383 --> 00:42:59,643
It's short-sighted and irresponsible in the long run.

506
00:42:59,683 --> 00:43:00,463
I do agree with that.

507
00:43:00,463 --> 00:43:02,243
So educate me here.

508
00:43:02,343 --> 00:43:04,403
Why is it a state-run company?

509
00:43:04,603 --> 00:43:07,103
Like, I don't know how this works.

510
00:43:07,763 --> 00:43:14,083
Well, I mean, like any corporation that registers and pays taxes to the state is in my opinion.

511
00:43:14,083 --> 00:43:15,003
You mean in that way?

512
00:43:15,143 --> 00:43:15,503
Yeah.

513
00:43:15,503 --> 00:43:15,663
Okay.

514
00:43:15,883 --> 00:43:16,063
Yeah.

515
00:43:16,123 --> 00:43:19,723
It's all based on faking gay man-made laws.

516
00:43:20,563 --> 00:43:25,423
Funny you should use that word, but it's spelled G-H-E-Y, right?

517
00:43:25,423 --> 00:43:33,023
right right of course right there's a distinction there maybe i hope people won't review bomb this

518
00:43:33,023 --> 00:43:39,803
episode like they did with a stranger things you know with a coming out scene uh oh well first of

519
00:43:39,803 --> 00:43:48,163
all that was not not super cringe oh very cringe uh i think this uh what we're talking about here

520
00:43:48,163 --> 00:43:54,383
are very serious issues and probably the very the most opposite the full almost as far as removed it

521
00:43:54,383 --> 00:43:55,403
from like,

522
00:43:55,463 --> 00:43:56,383
like,

523
00:43:56,383 --> 00:43:56,423
like,

524
00:43:56,543 --> 00:43:58,463
we'll Hollywood slop then,

525
00:43:58,743 --> 00:43:59,003
you know,

526
00:43:59,083 --> 00:43:59,323
yeah.

527
00:43:59,743 --> 00:44:01,963
We're talking about actual strange things.

528
00:44:03,283 --> 00:44:04,703
There are some strange things,

529
00:44:04,803 --> 00:44:05,563
not CGI.

530
00:44:06,243 --> 00:44:08,683
There's some real monsters out there actually.

531
00:44:09,203 --> 00:44:09,263
Yeah.

532
00:44:09,903 --> 00:44:10,203
Yeah.

533
00:44:11,203 --> 00:44:12,183
And I mean,

534
00:44:12,263 --> 00:44:12,643
yeah,

535
00:44:12,723 --> 00:44:15,463
if a brief side note on that stranger things thing,

536
00:44:15,543 --> 00:44:16,223
I think this,

537
00:44:16,403 --> 00:44:20,843
I laughed my ass off when I saw that got review bombed because it wasn't that,

538
00:44:20,923 --> 00:44:21,623
that bad.

539
00:44:21,683 --> 00:44:24,183
It wasn't as preachy as Hollywood used to be.

540
00:44:24,183 --> 00:44:26,083
like a couple of years ago

541
00:44:26,083 --> 00:44:28,143
and they were completely tone deaf

542
00:44:28,143 --> 00:44:29,563
during COVID, you know.

543
00:44:30,363 --> 00:44:32,403
So, but I find it hilarious.

544
00:44:32,623 --> 00:44:34,703
Like Peak Woke was a Marvel series

545
00:44:34,703 --> 00:44:35,643
called Echo,

546
00:44:36,003 --> 00:44:37,863
which is a Native American,

547
00:44:38,083 --> 00:44:40,783
slightly overweight, lesbian, deaf woman

548
00:44:40,783 --> 00:44:42,623
that is a superhero for some reason.

549
00:44:44,303 --> 00:44:46,003
Hasn't even crossed my radar, honestly.

550
00:44:46,203 --> 00:44:47,843
No, but I think the whole Woke,

551
00:44:48,023 --> 00:44:48,803
I think people,

552
00:44:49,123 --> 00:44:50,563
they're so fed up with it now.

553
00:44:50,703 --> 00:44:53,043
So whenever they shoehorn in

554
00:44:53,043 --> 00:44:53,883
something like that,

555
00:44:53,883 --> 00:44:57,403
they get completely bombed because it's super unnecessary.

556
00:44:58,543 --> 00:44:58,603
Yeah.

557
00:44:58,963 --> 00:44:59,063
Yeah.

558
00:44:59,603 --> 00:45:01,243
The era is just over.

559
00:45:01,923 --> 00:45:02,063
Yeah.

560
00:45:02,403 --> 00:45:09,163
I think that actually put people like me in harm's way because, you know, like that should

561
00:45:09,163 --> 00:45:10,083
be a private thing.

562
00:45:10,283 --> 00:45:13,623
That should be not something we encourage or celebrate necessarily.

563
00:45:13,943 --> 00:45:19,043
It's something we should just not do anything about because it's a private thing between

564
00:45:19,043 --> 00:45:20,303
consenting adults, right?

565
00:45:20,303 --> 00:45:29,243
There are definitely big problems for when the agenda is being used to corrupt and indoctrinate the youth.

566
00:45:29,383 --> 00:45:31,143
I mean, that's the future.

567
00:45:31,823 --> 00:45:41,863
And fiat has a way of discounting the future and extracting value from the people who can least afford it, especially like inflation, right?

568
00:45:41,923 --> 00:45:46,223
Inflation impacts the poor far more than anyone else.

569
00:45:46,223 --> 00:45:53,823
And in many ways, like when you were saying, like we were saying, you know, there are monsters, there are real monsters out there.

570
00:45:54,063 --> 00:46:05,103
I would say like Jerome Powell is like one of those, like any central banker really, like has like a lot of, let's just say sin to account for at some point.

571
00:46:05,763 --> 00:46:05,923
Absolutely.

572
00:46:06,783 --> 00:46:07,643
No, no, no.

573
00:46:07,663 --> 00:46:11,863
But we're back to the beginning of the conversation sacrificing infants.

574
00:46:12,163 --> 00:46:12,923
That's what we're doing.

575
00:46:12,983 --> 00:46:14,003
We're using fiat money.

576
00:46:14,123 --> 00:46:15,343
We're sacrificing our kids.

577
00:46:15,343 --> 00:46:15,823
It is.

578
00:46:15,823 --> 00:46:16,583
It's awful.

579
00:46:17,263 --> 00:46:18,323
It hurts.

580
00:46:19,063 --> 00:46:19,203
Yeah.

581
00:46:19,283 --> 00:46:26,403
I mean, I recently read an Arthur C. Clarke novel called Childhood's End.

582
00:46:27,343 --> 00:46:28,283
Have you read it?

583
00:46:28,923 --> 00:46:29,143
No.

584
00:46:29,743 --> 00:46:35,723
It is probably the most depressing ending I've ever read, ever.

585
00:46:35,723 --> 00:46:43,503
It's like, basically, I won't spoil the book, but I mean, all the children have to leave.

586
00:46:43,503 --> 00:46:45,243
and they just

587
00:46:45,243 --> 00:46:46,783
and then that's the end of humanity

588
00:46:46,783 --> 00:46:47,943
like everybody just loses hope

589
00:46:47,943 --> 00:46:48,963
and it's over

590
00:46:48,963 --> 00:46:50,443
it's over within a few years

591
00:46:50,443 --> 00:46:51,323
it's all over

592
00:46:51,323 --> 00:46:52,683
it's really sad

593
00:46:52,683 --> 00:46:54,523
did you see a movie called The Mist?

594
00:46:55,603 --> 00:46:55,743
no

595
00:46:55,743 --> 00:46:57,163
it's one of my

596
00:46:57,163 --> 00:47:00,263
a pet favorite movie of mine

597
00:47:00,263 --> 00:47:04,083
where there's a big mist coming to a small town

598
00:47:04,083 --> 00:47:05,423
and there's monsters in the middle

599
00:47:05,423 --> 00:47:06,163
the Stephen King novel

600
00:47:06,163 --> 00:47:07,503
yeah that guy is like woke as fuck

601
00:47:07,503 --> 00:47:09,643
no no no

602
00:47:09,643 --> 00:47:11,663
but the film adaptation is Frank Darabont

603
00:47:11,663 --> 00:47:14,843
It's the guy who wrote Shawshank Redemption, wrote the screenplay for that.

604
00:47:14,883 --> 00:47:15,323
So it's great.

605
00:47:16,043 --> 00:47:18,603
It's none of the woke garbage or anything like that.

606
00:47:19,443 --> 00:47:20,743
Or like kid rape or something.

607
00:47:21,243 --> 00:47:22,903
No, no, it's from before that.

608
00:47:23,143 --> 00:47:29,083
But there's tentacles with fangs and stuff coming out of the mist and taking people away.

609
00:47:29,323 --> 00:47:36,763
And well, the whole ending scene is super depressing because the guy has four bullets in his gun.

610
00:47:36,763 --> 00:47:38,903
and he gets to shoot his family

611
00:47:38,903 --> 00:47:40,843
to save them from being torn apart

612
00:47:40,843 --> 00:47:41,643
by these monsters.

613
00:47:42,523 --> 00:47:43,963
And as soon as he's done,

614
00:47:44,043 --> 00:47:46,643
he's got no bullet for himself left.

615
00:47:47,103 --> 00:47:48,223
The mist settles

616
00:47:48,223 --> 00:47:50,383
and there are no more monsters

617
00:47:50,383 --> 00:47:53,183
because the military won.

618
00:47:53,403 --> 00:47:54,523
So he didn't have to do that.

619
00:47:55,443 --> 00:47:56,823
It's a wonderful ending.

620
00:47:57,023 --> 00:47:59,183
I love everything goes to shit endings,

621
00:47:59,283 --> 00:47:59,683
by the way.

622
00:47:59,683 --> 00:48:02,103
I find them amusing for some reason.

623
00:48:02,223 --> 00:48:03,283
You should definitely read that book then,

624
00:48:03,403 --> 00:48:03,923
Childhood's End.

625
00:48:04,543 --> 00:48:05,623
Anyway, where were we?

626
00:48:05,843 --> 00:48:06,063
Yeah.

627
00:48:06,763 --> 00:48:08,923
The gay stuff and the woke stuff.

628
00:48:09,123 --> 00:48:15,723
Like if I was a homosexual, I would hate pride parades because I would be embarrassed by them.

629
00:48:16,163 --> 00:48:16,863
They were embarrassing.

630
00:48:16,963 --> 00:48:17,523
Yeah, frankly.

631
00:48:17,783 --> 00:48:18,303
Yeah, absolutely.

632
00:48:19,003 --> 00:48:20,823
That's why I pushed back on the woke stuff.

633
00:48:20,963 --> 00:48:23,483
I pushed back on – I voted for Trump.

634
00:48:23,823 --> 00:48:25,963
I started my husband.

635
00:48:26,903 --> 00:48:30,403
And like, I mean, there's a lot to say about that too.

636
00:48:30,403 --> 00:48:38,063
But one of the major reasons we both did that was just to sort of do our part to send the signal that this has to stop.

637
00:48:38,203 --> 00:48:47,603
Like this woke shit is not helping anybody except for maybe pushing a radical, weird agenda that nobody wants.

638
00:48:48,423 --> 00:48:58,523
And like transgender in particular is something – is a topic that is really only important to like maybe less than 1% of the American population.

639
00:48:58,523 --> 00:49:05,343
and it's just interesting to me to see the left really like kind of die on that hill of like a

640
00:49:05,343 --> 00:49:14,043
less than one percent issue. And I mean, and if you have a problem with that, that's also a good

641
00:49:14,043 --> 00:49:21,323
illustration of the tyranny of the majority, right? Like people say a lot of good things about

642
00:49:21,323 --> 00:49:26,943
democracy, but there's a lot of bad things about it as well. It's, in my opinion, there's no

643
00:49:26,943 --> 00:49:33,283
one right person to putting charge over a country of hundreds of millions. Like it's it's that that

644
00:49:33,283 --> 00:49:38,423
makes very little sense. Hayek, you know, he he talked about the use of information in society

645
00:49:38,423 --> 00:49:43,363
or news of knowledge in society. And he said, you know, basically like command economies don't work.

646
00:49:43,763 --> 00:49:53,243
One size fits all solutions put on everybody are inefficient. And in an inefficient market,

647
00:49:53,243 --> 00:50:00,503
You get scarcity, you get starvation. And that's why socialism, communism and command economies just don't work.

648
00:50:01,443 --> 00:50:20,303
And conversely, on the other side of it, one of the best examples that proved Hayek right was the fact that after the horrors of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution from Mao and all the nonsense he had in his Red Book,

649
00:50:20,303 --> 00:50:25,863
All the stupid shit he'd say about planting, you know, seeds three times closer together.

650
00:50:26,263 --> 00:50:34,903
And you need to, like, take all your agricultural implements and take all the iron out of them and send them to Beijing or whatever.

651
00:50:35,043 --> 00:50:37,303
It's like all that nonsense.

652
00:50:38,463 --> 00:50:39,703
Here comes Deng Xiaoping.

653
00:50:40,343 --> 00:50:46,223
And Deng Xiaoping, the reformer, he comes in and very humbly looks across the pond.

654
00:50:46,223 --> 00:50:50,683
And he sees all the great success the Japanese economic miracle is having.

655
00:50:51,243 --> 00:50:57,143
And he humbly comes over and he asks them, what did you do to make that happen?

656
00:50:57,583 --> 00:50:59,383
And you know what they told him?

657
00:50:59,923 --> 00:51:01,123
They didn't do shit.

658
00:51:01,663 --> 00:51:02,143
No, no.

659
00:51:02,343 --> 00:51:05,923
What they told him was they needed to have a bank in every village.

660
00:51:06,563 --> 00:51:07,203
Uh-huh.

661
00:51:07,783 --> 00:51:14,223
And that arguably is what led to the rise of the growing Chinese middle class and the prosperity they enjoy today.

662
00:51:14,223 --> 00:51:19,163
because they were able to empower more economically incentivized actors in the economy

663
00:51:19,163 --> 00:51:23,803
to not have a one-size-fits-all solution, but have a bank in every village.

664
00:51:23,883 --> 00:51:24,863
That's the very opposite.

665
00:51:25,383 --> 00:51:29,663
It's very capitalistic, actually, in the free market sense.

666
00:51:29,663 --> 00:51:36,903
And it's in many ways like the rise and success of China is validation of Austrian economics.

667
00:51:38,263 --> 00:51:41,163
Yeah, and it's the same the fall of the Soviet Union.

668
00:51:41,163 --> 00:51:50,663
I talk about this all the time when Gorbachev come over to the U.S. and saw that in the one-horse town in the middle of nowhere, they had more food than they had ever seen.

669
00:51:51,023 --> 00:51:52,083
And he was very elite.

670
00:51:52,323 --> 00:51:59,723
I mean, if you haven't already, I mean, look up old footage of Soviet grocery stores, how depressing they were.

671
00:52:00,183 --> 00:52:00,643
Yeah, yeah.

672
00:52:00,643 --> 00:52:13,943
And then for contrast, you see, you'll drive maybe half an hour and you'll go to a Buc-ee's, you know, or a Costco and you're just like surrounded by abundance and it's glorious.

673
00:52:14,283 --> 00:52:15,363
Have you been to a Buc-ee's yet?

674
00:52:16,283 --> 00:52:18,963
I don't think I believe I've ever been to a Buc-ee's.

675
00:52:19,183 --> 00:52:19,943
Next time we're both.

676
00:52:20,263 --> 00:52:20,763
I've been to a Costco.

677
00:52:20,963 --> 00:52:21,823
Yeah, we should.

678
00:52:22,623 --> 00:52:24,503
Costco is probably one of our better exports.

679
00:52:24,783 --> 00:52:27,443
I think it has achieved some success outside the US, right?

680
00:52:28,223 --> 00:52:29,623
Yeah, I think so, too.

681
00:52:29,623 --> 00:52:31,983
But I think the ones I've been to have been in the U.S.

682
00:52:32,043 --> 00:52:34,943
I don't remember, though, like a supermarket is not.

683
00:52:35,243 --> 00:52:36,023
But it's incredible, right?

684
00:52:36,103 --> 00:52:49,743
Like it's incredible, like, like, like a sign that, you know, like, like, like the fact that we're capable of economically sustainable supply chain like that without necessarily an enormous amount of government subsidy.

685
00:52:49,843 --> 00:52:55,223
It doesn't go free of government subsidy because there's a lot of subsidy of dairy and oil and all sorts of, you know.

686
00:52:55,223 --> 00:53:00,523
Yeah, but it would be even smoother and even more efficient without it.

687
00:53:00,923 --> 00:53:02,283
Yeah, it's true. It's true.

688
00:53:02,863 --> 00:53:06,583
And all capitalism is, it's just a voluntary exchange of goods and services.

689
00:53:07,023 --> 00:53:11,443
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what makes, you saw the Milton Friedman about the pencil, iPencil, right?

690
00:53:11,823 --> 00:53:12,283
Yeah.

691
00:53:12,543 --> 00:53:18,103
I don't think he wrote it, but he does a very good version of it.

692
00:53:18,103 --> 00:53:28,803
And if you want to find local Bitcoin communities, other Bitcoiners, Bitcoin merchants and Bitcoin events in your area, there's no better way to do that than through the Orange Pill app.

693
00:53:29,063 --> 00:53:32,863
Wait a minute. It's not the Orange Pill app anymore. It's Club Orange.

694
00:53:33,203 --> 00:53:43,383
Club Orange is an omni app that includes a lot of features, including a list of events, a wallet where you can send and receive sats over the Lightning Network.

695
00:53:43,383 --> 00:53:49,083
You can even geosap areas, so you can send sats to a whole bunch of people in one single area.

696
00:53:49,223 --> 00:53:55,183
You can also tap sap while you're chatting to someone, which is a new feature that I don't believe exists anywhere else.

697
00:53:55,383 --> 00:53:59,123
Overall, a fantastic app for connecting Bitcoiners all around the world.

698
00:53:59,363 --> 00:54:02,403
So go to cluborange.org and sign up today.

699
00:54:02,643 --> 00:54:03,583
You won't regret it.

700
00:54:03,803 --> 00:54:05,083
It's not just a gay dating app.

701
00:54:05,263 --> 00:54:06,443
It's everything else, too.

702
00:54:06,983 --> 00:54:08,063
You can use it.

703
00:54:08,823 --> 00:54:09,723
Forget about that.

704
00:54:10,183 --> 00:54:10,843
Go and sign up.

705
00:54:11,503 --> 00:54:12,383
Cluborange.org.

706
00:54:13,383 --> 00:54:17,303
If you want to really secure your Bitcoin, you should check out the Bitcoin Advisor.

707
00:54:17,703 --> 00:54:22,443
They have never lost a single set and they take care of your stack together with you.

708
00:54:22,623 --> 00:54:23,743
They can't use your stack.

709
00:54:23,843 --> 00:54:24,483
That's impossible.

710
00:54:24,923 --> 00:54:27,103
But they can help you with inheritance planning.

711
00:54:27,223 --> 00:54:29,243
They can help you huddle the Bitcoin long term.

712
00:54:29,503 --> 00:54:33,103
So go to thebitcoinadvisor.com to find out more and brush your teeth.

713
00:54:33,663 --> 00:54:36,043
Anyway, interesting parts.

714
00:54:36,043 --> 00:54:40,083
We've been through the uninteresting parts about you now.

715
00:54:40,083 --> 00:54:45,323
What about BIP 360? Tell me about that.

716
00:54:45,583 --> 00:54:49,323
Yes. So Bitcoin improvement proposal 360. What is that?

717
00:54:49,323 --> 00:55:10,503
But Bit360 is essentially, we've whittled it down into the most, basically the smallest thing we think we need to change about Bitcoin that will then essentially give us the position, will be much better positioned to adopt and make use of as it makes sense to post-quantum cryptography.

718
00:55:10,503 --> 00:55:32,903
We need post-quantum cryptography because, not necessarily because Bitcoin is vulnerable entirely right now, but in the BIP we're very careful to explain that there will probably be a distinction between the kind of quantum computer needed to attack Bitcoin if you had all the time in the world with the public keys of cryptography.

719
00:55:32,937 --> 00:55:40,097
exposed on chain. And if you only have 10 minutes at most, and if the money gets moved to a different

720
00:55:40,097 --> 00:55:47,197
key before you're able to recover that key with your quantum computer, then you've essentially

721
00:55:47,197 --> 00:55:52,677
wasted a lot of energy and compute and you lost your chance at those coins. And so like those,

722
00:55:52,677 --> 00:55:57,457
the distinction between a long exposure attack and a short exposure attack, which is what I just

723
00:55:57,457 --> 00:56:02,377
described, could be quite substantial because of the kind of quantum computer needed.

724
00:56:02,377 --> 00:56:10,577
However, Bitcoin is about two thirds resistant against long exposure attacks and basically

725
00:56:10,577 --> 00:56:15,597
zero percent resistant against short exposure attacks.

726
00:56:15,737 --> 00:56:21,197
That said, short exposure attacks we consider to be a much longer term problem.

727
00:56:21,577 --> 00:56:26,057
We don't need to solve it necessarily tomorrow, though we will need to have standards if we

728
00:56:26,057 --> 00:56:32,117
want to build software that's designed to be future-proof for the coming havings and generations.

729
00:56:32,117 --> 00:56:40,417
Like, ultimately, what BIP-D60 does is it resolves a concern with Taproot in that every Taproot

730
00:56:40,417 --> 00:56:47,217
address is an exposed public key, which can be used to spend the coins if you can derive the

731
00:56:47,217 --> 00:56:53,797
private key from that public key using either algorithmic break in what's called the discrete

732
00:56:53,797 --> 00:57:00,097
log problem or DLP or an elliptic cryptography, or if you're just able to, in a way, brute force

733
00:57:00,097 --> 00:57:05,897
it cleverly using Shor's algorithm on a cryptographically relevant quantum computer.

734
00:57:05,897 --> 00:57:14,477
Even if that scenario is like not something that manifests, something that already is real is the

735
00:57:14,477 --> 00:57:20,637
fear, uncertainty and doubt in markets that sort of acts as a quantum discount on Bitcoin's price,

736
00:57:20,637 --> 00:57:26,837
which as I mentioned earlier, its value is part of the security model.

737
00:57:26,997 --> 00:57:30,477
So if we don't value Bitcoin, then people won't mind to protect it.

738
00:57:30,637 --> 00:57:38,937
And so it'll languish and not be able to protect all the wealth that it currently does at a

739
00:57:38,937 --> 00:57:39,437
protocol level.

740
00:57:39,637 --> 00:57:48,717
And so I think the quantum FUD is probably one of the most salient pieces of FUD out

741
00:57:48,717 --> 00:57:48,937
there.

742
00:57:48,937 --> 00:57:52,457
There's a lot of lower quality FUD that we've all heard in the past.

743
00:57:52,617 --> 00:57:57,797
It's just tulip bulbs or it's going to be e-waste or mining is wasteful.

744
00:57:58,577 --> 00:58:08,377
Daniel Batten, I don't know if you see his stuff on Twitter, but he is very methodical and meticulous and deconstructs all of those arguments.

745
00:58:08,717 --> 00:58:09,157
He is great.

746
00:58:09,337 --> 00:58:11,297
He's great at talking to his crowd.

747
00:58:11,717 --> 00:58:13,577
He's definitely great at that.

748
00:58:13,617 --> 00:58:13,797
Yeah.

749
00:58:14,117 --> 00:58:17,537
And he's able to address a lot of that FUD quite effectively.

750
00:58:17,537 --> 00:58:28,597
He recently paid me a compliment on X and that just made my day because like the most I care to do is just write a BIP and then say that you're gay if you sell your Bitcoin for FUD.

751
00:58:31,617 --> 00:58:32,457
It's a lot easier.

752
00:58:32,497 --> 00:58:35,877
It's a lot easier to just say, oh, you're afraid of quantum computers?

753
00:58:36,157 --> 00:58:36,857
That's pretty gay.

754
00:58:39,577 --> 00:58:42,557
So, OK, so let me see.

755
00:58:42,757 --> 00:58:44,277
There was a lot to unpack there.

756
00:58:44,397 --> 00:58:46,757
Let me see if I can pose a question here.

757
00:58:46,757 --> 00:58:55,697
The reverse thing is, do you think people will value Bitcoin higher if they know that it's quantum or secure?

758
00:58:56,217 --> 00:58:58,177
If it's provably quantum secure?

759
00:58:58,897 --> 00:59:00,797
I know for a fact that is the case, yeah.

760
00:59:01,277 --> 00:59:10,897
So that is one of the arguments for if there was a robust way to show that Bitcoin cannot be cracked by quantum computers ever.

761
00:59:10,897 --> 00:59:18,797
So all this alt-coiner FUD, the shit-coiner FUD that spreads every time people start talking about quantum computing can be discarded.

762
00:59:19,157 --> 00:59:19,557
Yeah, exactly.

763
00:59:19,577 --> 00:59:23,157
So that's one of the motivations for actually making it quantum-proof, I guess.

764
00:59:23,277 --> 00:59:23,637
Exactly.

765
00:59:24,097 --> 00:59:30,077
Yeah. All right. So, and this is a question Luke pointed out that I should ask.

766
00:59:30,377 --> 00:59:33,977
How big are these BIP 360 transactions?

767
00:59:34,737 --> 00:59:38,217
Well, that is a good question because it has a nuanced answer.

768
00:59:38,217 --> 00:59:41,137
It is very complicated.

769
00:59:41,137 --> 00:59:44,457
So actually, PIP360 in its current form,

770
00:59:44,457 --> 00:59:47,597
after being rewritten four times with a bunch of feedback,

771
00:59:47,597 --> 00:59:51,417
and I've added not just one, but two other co-authors,

772
00:59:51,417 --> 00:59:55,057
is it actually doesn't introduce any post-quantial cryptography.

773
00:59:55,057 --> 01:00:08,690
It doesn deprecate or introduce any form of cryptography other than the fact that it creates a new address output type that is basically the next version in SegWit

774
01:00:08,690 --> 01:00:13,330
So the original native SegWit addresses, they start with BC1Q.

775
01:00:13,890 --> 01:00:15,050
Those are hashed.

776
01:00:15,070 --> 01:00:15,670
Those are fine.

777
01:00:15,790 --> 01:00:17,190
They came out in 2017, right?

778
01:00:17,950 --> 01:00:19,290
Taproot, SegWitV1.

779
01:00:19,550 --> 01:00:21,410
So the original was SegWitV0.

780
01:00:21,970 --> 01:00:25,630
SegWitV1 is taproot or pay to taproot, P2TR.

781
01:00:25,630 --> 01:00:40,770
Those are problematic, but they do add a very useful property, which is the capability to commit to essentially a Merkle tree of scripts, different scripts that you can decide which one you want to reveal at spend time.

782
01:00:40,770 --> 01:00:47,130
That is really important for enabling sort of like signature scheme choice in your wallet.

783
01:00:47,430 --> 01:01:06,850
So if you are worried about quantum computers someday and you think you'd like to prepare for that possibility where you may need to send some money and you don't want to necessarily worry about like this threat, you can sort of pay a premium and it will make use of cryptography that's harder.

784
01:01:07,230 --> 01:01:09,790
That is not specified in BIP 360 itself.

785
01:01:09,790 --> 01:01:13,310
We had to break it up because it is such a complex and deep rabbit hole.

786
01:01:13,570 --> 01:01:25,290
And so we're just trying to make sure that we fix this flaw in Taproot so that we can then in the future decide what is a better signature scheme for Bitcoin.

787
01:01:25,810 --> 01:01:28,490
And that's still hotly debated.

788
01:01:29,450 --> 01:01:31,030
So how big are the transactions?

789
01:01:31,030 --> 01:01:39,690
To answer the question, there will be no increase in size for sending money to one of these addresses.

790
01:01:40,030 --> 01:01:48,530
And in the future, you will have the option of either using the standard cartography that ships with Bitcoin already, so there's no increase.

791
01:01:48,990 --> 01:01:59,630
Or you could opt for more expensive post-quantum cartography, which could be anywhere from 100 times bigger to maybe 10 times or 5 times.

792
01:01:59,630 --> 01:02:03,770
I know it's it's it's a lot there's a lot, but maybe three or five times.

793
01:02:03,870 --> 01:02:04,330
It depends.

794
01:02:04,690 --> 01:02:07,630
It depends a lot on like what we what we choose to do.

795
01:02:07,630 --> 01:02:18,290
And also there might be a future or possibility where we like figure out how to scale post quantum cartography on Bitcoin.

796
01:02:18,290 --> 01:02:22,510
According to like the the proposal that Ethan made earlier this year.

797
01:02:22,610 --> 01:02:24,470
Actually, it's about six months ago.

798
01:02:24,570 --> 01:02:27,210
He talked about something we later called Bitsip.

799
01:02:27,210 --> 01:02:33,390
basically it's a stark space signature aggregation mechanism that could potentially

800
01:02:33,390 --> 01:02:38,810
solve the scaling problem of bitcoin on layer one as well to some degree might like give us

801
01:02:38,810 --> 01:02:45,810
like 10x the throughput or bandwidth from starks so that might be one option this is hard for me to

802
01:02:45,810 --> 01:02:52,550
follow because it's deeply technical so so like so when can people expect a wallet that has a

803
01:02:52,550 --> 01:02:58,430
service that says quantum proof your coins now and there's a slide and you can just push a button

804
01:02:58,430 --> 01:03:03,270
and they move them into quantum proof others well the interesting thing about bitcoin is like making

805
01:03:03,270 --> 01:03:09,730
any change to bitcoin itself is very difficult which is good and by design and not something we

806
01:03:09,730 --> 01:03:14,510
should necessarily disparage it for because that's one of the bigger reasons why it's valuable

807
01:03:14,510 --> 01:03:21,290
we can sort of like off upgrade the the cartography off chain and side chains that are secured by

808
01:03:21,290 --> 01:03:26,290
Bitcoin and merge mind with it and even pay miners fees.

809
01:03:26,790 --> 01:03:30,750
But the thing with sidechains, of course,

810
01:03:30,750 --> 01:03:33,590
is they have different trust assumptions that are less than ideal.

811
01:03:33,770 --> 01:03:36,990
Yeah. And they give the miner another incentive.

812
01:03:36,990 --> 01:03:39,150
And that is also pretty dangerous, isn't it?

813
01:03:39,970 --> 01:03:44,470
Like, oh, is like, like, like the, the, the concerns around drive chains,

814
01:03:44,470 --> 01:03:45,890
for example, like the 300, right?

815
01:03:46,850 --> 01:03:47,850
Yeah.

816
01:03:47,850 --> 01:03:51,890
They could introduce like an incentive to perform MAV.

817
01:03:51,890 --> 01:04:03,390
The kind of sidechains I think about, I spend time thinking about are the kind of sidechains that either add new cartography, like novel cartography or scalability for the payments use case.

818
01:04:04,390 --> 01:04:10,590
Like it's if there are if there is like kind of like a bid assets protocol to it, that's that's useful and helpful.

819
01:04:10,590 --> 01:04:13,890
But that's only useful and helpful if you couple it with monetary payments.

820
01:04:13,890 --> 01:04:19,650
payments and so i think that uh i don't spend too much time on on all other units of account

821
01:04:19,650 --> 01:04:26,010
other fungible token prices right or or tges right like or that kind of bullshit right like

822
01:04:26,010 --> 01:04:38,423
icos like like that none of that makes any sense to waste an iota of um precious time on earth Of course not I find it to be very boring

823
01:04:38,903 --> 01:04:40,543
Well, the use case is scamming people.

824
01:04:41,023 --> 01:04:41,863
Yeah, yeah.

825
01:04:43,563 --> 01:04:53,023
And I find it funny because when people say, there's a class of Bitcoiner that refuses to say all shit coins are scammed.

826
01:04:53,023 --> 01:04:56,303
They say 99.99% of them are scams.

827
01:04:56,943 --> 01:05:04,563
And therefore, they leave out, they save both ways because they leave out, because there might be something that isn't a total scam.

828
01:05:05,363 --> 01:05:07,443
But why bother?

829
01:05:08,883 --> 01:05:13,523
I think it comes from a case of a place of intellectual honesty in a way, right?

830
01:05:13,523 --> 01:05:15,283
Like you don't, you don't.

831
01:05:15,523 --> 01:05:23,903
Yeah, but it's honest and dishonest at the same time, because like it's in the same vein of saying that your company is Bitcoin first.

832
01:05:24,483 --> 01:05:30,743
Like that means shit coins in my, if you're Bitcoin first, you're, you are a shit coiner, right?

833
01:05:30,763 --> 01:05:32,403
Because why aren't you Bitcoin only?

834
01:05:32,723 --> 01:05:37,263
That's kind of funny because that also sounds a little bit like America first.

835
01:05:37,443 --> 01:05:42,983
And America first is supposed to be more conservative than MAGA, like make America great again, right?

836
01:05:42,983 --> 01:05:44,883
So you have Macca, you have America first.

837
01:05:45,243 --> 01:05:48,323
I don't hear of people who are like America only, right?

838
01:05:48,763 --> 01:05:54,503
No, I bet those people exist though, but I'm not sure I would want to meet one.

839
01:05:54,943 --> 01:06:03,663
It's not a great analogy, but it's just something I came to mind as sort of like a counter to the maximalist point.

840
01:06:03,663 --> 01:06:12,663
For me personally, I consider myself firmly a Bitcoin maximalist, but I also am a...

841
01:06:12,983 --> 01:06:17,423
I ultimately I'm a Bitcoin maximalist, not because I'm a Bitcoin maximalist.

842
01:06:17,543 --> 01:06:22,263
I'm a Bitcoin maximalist because I'm a meritocracy maximalist.

843
01:06:22,383 --> 01:06:22,523
Right.

844
01:06:22,763 --> 01:06:22,963
Yeah.

845
01:06:23,203 --> 01:06:41,183
And I think Bitcoin is the thing that has the most merit and by far because anything that could be implemented on these shitcoin protocols, if it has merit, if has sufficient merit, I think we'll find a way to make it work with Bitcoin.

846
01:06:41,183 --> 01:06:43,903
in a way that would satisfy the demand, regardless using layers.

847
01:06:44,823 --> 01:06:48,743
I'd love to hear your thoughts about the one-shot principle from my second book,

848
01:06:49,303 --> 01:06:55,143
Independence Reimagined, because I tried to put it into a short couple of sentences,

849
01:06:55,403 --> 01:07:01,703
as few sentences as possible, why Bitcoin is irreplicable or irreplaceable.

850
01:07:02,243 --> 01:07:04,183
And the one-shot principle goes like this.

851
01:07:04,223 --> 01:07:07,943
It's like absolute mathematical scarcity.

852
01:07:07,943 --> 01:07:11,503
I would say finiteness nowadays, but it was scarcity back then.

853
01:07:11,863 --> 01:07:20,343
So absolute mathematical scarcity in a sufficiently decentralized distributed network was a discovery rather than an invention.

854
01:07:20,683 --> 01:07:28,243
It cannot be discovered again by people aware of this invention, since the very thing discovered was resistance to replicability itself.

855
01:07:28,383 --> 01:07:30,123
Would you agree or disagree with that?

856
01:07:30,123 --> 01:07:38,663
Well, I think I would agree with that so long as Bitcoin retains its position as the thing that is successful.

857
01:07:39,823 --> 01:07:48,523
Yeah, because the interesting thing, I think when I think about that, if it turns out to be untrue, then none of it can work.

858
01:07:48,743 --> 01:07:57,123
Because if you can replace Bitcoin, then the whole purpose is gone because you can just replace the next thing with the next thing with the next thing.

859
01:07:57,123 --> 01:08:00,543
Like either you have this finite thing or you don't.

860
01:08:00,863 --> 01:08:08,423
Like either you figured out resistance to replicability or you didn't.

861
01:08:08,803 --> 01:08:13,383
Do you think the war of the currents is a good analogy?

862
01:08:13,743 --> 01:08:24,703
Like how, you know, like AC sort of won out over DC because it can go further without attenuation losses, at least with older technology.

863
01:08:24,703 --> 01:08:36,383
I haven't thought of it from that perspective, but it's a quite good analogy, even though AC versus DTC is one out of two and not one amongst 5,000.

864
01:08:36,683 --> 01:08:38,883
I would like the wheel analogy.

865
01:08:39,203 --> 01:08:49,723
So you can construct a hexagonal wheel, but the circle is the best way to construct a wheel and Bitcoin is the best way to construct an absolute final.

866
01:08:49,723 --> 01:09:12,696
That not a great analogy either because even though like there the wheel well in a way it might actually be a good analogy because okay so let say the wheel shape is Bitcoin Not necessarily like the implementation detail Exactly That what I mean The circular shape A stone wheel and a Goodyear tire are essentially the same thing in that analogy because it

867
01:09:12,696 --> 01:09:14,176
follows a specification.

868
01:09:14,176 --> 01:09:15,976
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

869
01:09:15,976 --> 01:09:21,536
But to me, Bitcoin is not the wheel, but the Bitcoin is the circular shape that shapes

870
01:09:21,536 --> 01:09:22,536
the wheel.

871
01:09:22,536 --> 01:09:23,896
And the wheel is money.

872
01:09:23,896 --> 01:09:31,476
So you can use other money and you can use other shapes for wheels, but one shape is obviously better.

873
01:09:32,636 --> 01:09:35,276
It's a bit of a weak analogy, but yeah.

874
01:09:36,936 --> 01:09:41,976
It'll also be complicated in the Ancapistan utopia, right?

875
01:09:42,036 --> 01:09:50,956
Because they don't have roads and they all fly in UFOs or whatever, because we get the deep state technology that they've been suppressing all this time.

876
01:09:50,956 --> 01:10:09,636
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I forgot that we don't have roads in Ankapistan. Damn it, we have to start over again. The other analogy would be like discovering America. Discovering Bitcoin is discovering America. Can you do it twice? Well, a lot of people argue that it has been done several times by different groups of people, but yeah.

877
01:10:09,636 --> 01:10:15,756
Yeah. Well, that is also a good analogy in a few different ways.

878
01:10:15,876 --> 01:10:23,156
Also, because like as Bitcoin ages, we have sort of this this thing where we sort of have the eternal September.

879
01:10:23,156 --> 01:10:30,456
We have people learning, you know, that like they'll learn about Bitcoin and the next day like I'm new to Bitcoin.

880
01:10:30,576 --> 01:10:38,576
I'm here to fix it. Right. And like it's just like this, this, this, this tells all this time of just, you know, like seasons, newcomers, things like that.

881
01:10:39,636 --> 01:10:45,276
And a way like the discovery of America has happened several times in history.

882
01:10:45,796 --> 01:10:55,636
The Chinese like arguably knew about America, but then they burned their merchant fleet inexplicably because I guess they were afraid of, you know, too much, you know.

883
01:10:56,596 --> 01:11:00,276
And then there was, you know, the Vikings.

884
01:11:00,636 --> 01:11:08,836
There was, of course, the Anunnaki and the – I'm sure you're aware of the Talosians, the Atlanteans, the Lemurians.

885
01:11:08,836 --> 01:11:10,176
the Klingon

886
01:11:10,176 --> 01:11:11,036
the Dothraki

887
01:11:11,036 --> 01:11:11,916
yeah yeah

888
01:11:11,916 --> 01:11:13,316
everyone was there first

889
01:11:13,316 --> 01:11:14,116
the Hutts

890
01:11:14,116 --> 01:11:14,936
yeah

891
01:11:14,936 --> 01:11:19,776
yeah

892
01:11:19,776 --> 01:11:20,396
well

893
01:11:20,396 --> 01:11:21,736
is there anything

894
01:11:21,736 --> 01:11:23,136
we haven't covered yet

895
01:11:23,136 --> 01:11:24,236
that you want to talk about

896
01:11:24,236 --> 01:11:25,636
before we wrap this thing up

897
01:11:25,636 --> 01:11:25,756
yes the Agarthans

898
01:11:25,756 --> 01:11:27,496
I forgot about the Agarthans

899
01:11:27,496 --> 01:11:28,736
Agarthans

900
01:11:28,736 --> 01:11:29,476
they also have caverns

901
01:11:29,476 --> 01:11:29,616
yeah

902
01:11:29,616 --> 01:11:31,796
Agarthans have caverns

903
01:11:31,796 --> 01:11:32,096
okay

904
01:11:32,096 --> 01:11:33,576
well

905
01:11:33,576 --> 01:11:35,816
I guess that was

906
01:11:35,816 --> 01:11:38,816
I guess that was

907
01:11:38,816 --> 01:11:43,376
adding to the previous point it's a rabbit hole it's a rabbit hole all right all right

908
01:11:43,376 --> 01:11:50,176
literally yeah oh i love this conversation but i i'm gonna have to wrap this up pretty soon it's

909
01:11:50,176 --> 01:11:55,096
pretty late getting pretty late here and i have to get back to my family but before we wrap up is

910
01:11:55,096 --> 01:11:58,916
there is there anything else you want to that we haven't covered that you want to mention

911
01:11:58,916 --> 01:12:05,496
if anybody is curious about the work we're doing to make sure bitcoin is ready against

912
01:12:05,496 --> 01:12:08,656
these deep state faggots who broke our crypto.

913
01:12:10,196 --> 01:12:13,316
Please look into our work on bit360.org.

914
01:12:14,636 --> 01:12:17,256
I also have a substack, cryptoquick.substack.com.

915
01:12:17,256 --> 01:12:20,636
And on XM, I'm CryptoQuick as well.

916
01:12:21,776 --> 01:12:23,836
You're saying that very quickly.

917
01:12:24,316 --> 01:12:25,596
Maybe that's deliberate.

918
01:12:26,136 --> 01:12:26,896
CryptoQuick.

919
01:12:27,276 --> 01:12:27,556
Yeah.

920
01:12:27,956 --> 01:12:28,456
CryptoQuick.

921
01:12:28,836 --> 01:12:29,036
Yeah.

922
01:12:29,756 --> 01:12:30,476
Dot com.

923
01:12:30,476 --> 01:12:35,916
And also on Nostre, my NPUB is NPUB1QQ.

924
01:12:36,576 --> 01:12:38,096
It's got a bunch of other...

925
01:12:38,096 --> 01:12:39,396
Yeah, yeah.

926
01:12:41,476 --> 01:12:43,236
I'm sure people can find you there.

927
01:12:43,456 --> 01:12:44,536
They have to hunt for you.

928
01:12:44,716 --> 01:12:45,656
Yeah, so good.

929
01:12:46,056 --> 01:12:50,676
Hunter, my gay furry friend, quantum resistant friend,

930
01:12:51,116 --> 01:12:53,056
this has been a great conversation

931
01:12:53,056 --> 01:12:55,116
and I hope to see you in real life.

932
01:12:55,156 --> 01:12:57,156
Are you coming back to El Salvador, by the way, in January?

933
01:12:58,196 --> 01:12:59,116
Not in January.

934
01:12:59,116 --> 01:13:00,256
That's too soon, unfortunately.

935
01:13:00,476 --> 01:13:16,776
All right. Yeah. But yeah, I'm sure we bump into each other at some one of these conferences and you're welcome back on the show at some looking forward to our next conversation already. This is great. Yeah. Thank you very much.

936
01:13:30,476 --> 01:14:00,456
Thank you.