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Roger, welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

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thanks so much for inviting me.

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I love, uh, love the show.

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I've been watching some of your recent episodes, you know, saw

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the episode with Francis and, uh, Madex, both Canadian Bitcoiners.

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So yeah, much love and, uh, love to be on here.

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Yes.

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So, uh, Roger, you are a fellow Bitcoin author.

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We always love having those on.

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Uh, and you are also a fellow Canadian, uh, even though I'm not a Canadian,

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but, uh, this is Roger's book.

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Would ma hold bitcoin?

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And so, uh, uh, before we get into that, I'd like to have a, a little

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bit of background on you for those of our listeners who don't know who

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you are or why you wrote this book.

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So, so can you give us the TLDR on Roger Huang?

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Yeah, yeah, no, for sure.

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So I was born in China but moved, uh, fairly early to North America.

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But I would go kind of like back and forth between China and uh, Canada.

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And uh, it was kinda like a very unique upbringing.

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Now I realize, 'cause I was kind of, uh, in between both worlds a little bit.

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and so I was really plugged into kind of different communities, whether that's

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diaspora communities or just, communities like within China and things like that.

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so I never quite lost my, uh, Chinese roots, but then I also

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really had to clate to, you know, a new culture in, in Canada and.

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And, um, yeah, uh, I started getting interested in Bitcoin,

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I think in like 2012 or 2013.

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So, uh, some of the, I mean, you had Francis on, um, and he was

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much more involved than I was on this, but they had this like old

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Bitcoin embassy in, uh, Montreal.

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That was like a, that was a thing.

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And I realized after the fact that I actually met Adam back, um, 'cause he came

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over to our, uh, there's like a coworking startup house called Notman House.

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And one day I come in and there's all these people like putting

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aluminum on the walls and like, who the hell are these people?

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Like, there's like scanning for bugs and stuff like that.

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And then, yeah, someone told me it was like the Blockstream team.

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I was like, the Blockstream team, what is that?

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And uh, yeah, like one of the original co-founders of Blockstream is this

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guy who ran like A ISB outta Montreal.

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So, you know, Montreal actually had some, I. So pretty, that's where I

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grew up and Montreal had some pretty good, uh, Bitcoin kind of bonafides

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and I started writing about it in 2014.

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Um, that was kind of Bitcoin, uh, for me.

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And, uh, yeah, I've just been looking to, I think you had mentioned something

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about when you write, you know, you were writing all these books and you

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were writing all these articles anyways and you decide to put them in a book.

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And I feel like my progression is like very similar.

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I basically, was putting together these articles because I was trying to just

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understand why I was so fascinated by it, you know, and um, then it got to the point

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where I was just writing about it, uh, 2018, I think I started with Forbes and

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they gave me like a really broad latitude and using the Forbes name, I was able

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to interview a whole bunch of people.

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and yeah, and then I wrote the book, uh, would Mouth Hold Bitcoin?

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I started writing that in 2022, I think, and I was doing some research for it.

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I had went to Hong Kong actually during the protest and things like that,

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to, to research for the book and also just to see what was happening with

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the protests and things like that.

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so yeah, that's the TLDR, maybe a little bit too much tl DR, but that is the TL DR

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So fantastic.

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Would it be appropriate to say you were ping ponging between the two countries?

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Yeah, no, of course.

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And uh, I'm pretty good at ping pong actually.

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Uh, I hope

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we can, I hope we can see this live.

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But I was playing during, uh, adopting Bitcoin in El Salvador.

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They had like a little, they had like the perfect setup for me.

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They had a little ping pong table and they had a poker table right next to each

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other, so I would switch back and forth.

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Oh, fantastic.

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So, uh, as, as I hold, would ma hold, like, uh, the, the obvious question

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is, would, would Mao hold Bitcoin?

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What?

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Do you have a yes or no answer to this?

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I, I'm gonna hit you with like a roundabout.

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Uh, you know what's funny?

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I gave Jack Dorsey a copy of the book and he was like, that was his first,

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yeah, everyone's first question is like, well, wouldn't mouth hold Bitcoin?

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I'm like, well, I guess that's kind of like my fault for

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choosing that as a title.

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Um, originally, uh, so to give you a little bit of context to back up a

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little bit, um, originally the book was called One Country Two Blockchains,

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which no one would've understood, no one would've understood, and also had the

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word blockchain, which I actually hate.

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and, uh, so the, to, to be fair to the Bitcoin magazine team,

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they had a really good decision.

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They were like, Hey, like, you should probably change the title.

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And I was like, okay, well here's like a couple of ideas.

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And they really like the wood mouth hold Bitcoin.

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Um, I think in hindsight I might've actually chosen what she hold Bitcoin

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'cause that's actually much more relevant.

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but there is some cool things about he Mao being on the cover, which is namely

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that Mao is actually on all the paper bills in the, uh, Chinese state, right?

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So if you look at the un, uh, it's Mao's face, um, also, super cipher punk, at

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least in my opinion, defacing Mao's, uh, face is kind of a crime in China.

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Um, so my book is, I don't think aloud.

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Yeah, I've had that comment several times.

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Like, uh, people have been like trying to read it in the mainland.

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Um, and they will not bring it across the border.

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I. it's like a little bit too obvious, like the Chinese sensors.

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Yeah.

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It's got, well 'cause it's got 'em with the laser eyes

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Yeah, I just saw the laser.

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mouse face, which was kind of like a, it was kinda like a cheeky little reference.

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But anyways, um, so the actual question itself would mouth hold Bitcoin?

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I don't really actually address it that much in the book, but, um, thinking

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through it, I mean obviously the one thing I was trying to go with, with

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the title to really get across was how much China has, um, changed and still

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remained the same in some ways, like how the party has, uh, always had the power.

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Um, it's just replacing the figureheads, but the figureheads actually do have some

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substantive differences with each other.

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So unlike Mao, uh, she reigns over a China that is in position now that has some

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level of markets, uh, per se, although under the complete control of the party.

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Ways.

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Um, and so, you know the question, would she hold Bitcoin is much more ambiguous

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and would ma hold Bitcoin is a little bit more like hearkening back to the old

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times where, you know, killed a lot of landlords, killed millions of people.

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There was famine and everything related to that.

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there's also an interesting kind of thing where I think Mao would

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hold Bitcoin when he was a rebel.

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People forget that he was fighting the caves for a very long time

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against the nationalist government.

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And one thing I do cover in the book is that part of the reason

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why the nationalist government lost was because of inflation.

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I have this presentation where, you know, there's this, uh, girl holding the

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equivalent of 10 USD and Chinese currency at the time when the nationalists ruled.

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And that 10 USD was worth, like, I think it was like three, like 444,000, the, uh,

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the Chinese monetary unit at the time.

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And so that helped Mao and, and one of the first things he did.

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Kind of strange for a communist, or maybe not, maybe this aligns

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perfectly, is he actually created the People's Bank of China.

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That was actually one of the first things he did was he unified all

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the, uh, regional kind of central banks into the, uh, people's

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Bank of China that we know today.

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And that prints currency under his kind of face.

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So would Mal hold Bitcoin?

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The answer I usually give is yes.

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As a rebel, no, as a blood thirsty.

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Yeah, that clears things up.

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I, I think it also depends on when in bitcoin's, not only in Mao's personal

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history, but when in Bitcoin's history, like the likelihood that he would hold

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Bitcoin if he was allowed, uh, alive in the year 2100, for instance, instance, is

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way higher than if he was alive in 2015.

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I mean, some other people have given me some pretty interesting

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answers to that, um, which shout out to people like, other than me for

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thinking about this much more deeply.

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Um, but yeah, like, you know, uh, I think there's this idea of like, some of

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this is like she's dilemma route, right?

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Like Bitcoin is like a part of, and it's this weird intersect between like

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state power and also like free freedom technology right now at this point, right?

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With what's happening in the states and everything like that.

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So you almost have China, China's still holding some amount of

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Bitcoin, by the way, from the seizures they had of, uh, plus token.

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We'll get into that maybe a little bit later.

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But, now you see that Bitcoin has like kind of gone into the game of global

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geopolitics to a certain extent.

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And so I certainly don't think Mao could have ignored Bitcoin even

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now, and I nevermind Bitcoin in 2,100 at the point where like, you

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know, I think a lot of current fiat currencies today may not exist, right?

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And then Bitcoin still persists.

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So certainly not a force to be

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ignored.

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No.

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Uh, okay.

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Uh, the, so I want you to educate me a bit about how much, how total the total

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control in China actually is, because I've heard different, uh, voices,

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describing China from the inside.

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And one, uh, view I've heard, uh, quite a bit is that if you are small enough

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of an entrepreneur, so if you're selling like, fruit on the street or something,

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then the government leaves you alone.

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It's, it's when you're above a certain threshold, they come and

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instantly like, take over and it's state run from then on, basically.

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So, so what's you, your view on that?

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Can you gimme like the, the, um, uh, one-on-one on, on the Chinese economy

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and how totalitarian it actually is?

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Yeah, no, um, no.

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Happy to.

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Uh, I think first, like I have to admit, like, so I visited China and

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I would go quite frequently, right?

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But I've never worked for a Chinese company.

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So I've always worked remotely for American or Canadian companies,

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even when I was in China.

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So I don't like have as much, you know, direct interface with

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like government restrictions.

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I've never tried to run a company in China.

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I know a lot of people who do have like their stories and stuff like that.

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But just something to keep in mind, uh, as I'm going into this perspective.

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'cause everyone's perspective will kind of be a little bit different

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because a Chinese state is very multifaceted and different people

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have different experiences in general.

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What I've seen is that if you are, um, there is a level, I

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think this would surprise people.

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There is a level of, I would say like badassery to a certain

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extent among like Chinese.

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People that, uh, would, you would think would be surprising?

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Like, just to give you a quick example, like there's tons of different

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videos of like shop owners, when the cops come in, shop owners are

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like, get the fuck outta my store.

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Like, what are you doing here?

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So like there, it isn't as a clean of a story as like, oh my God, we

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live in a totally Orwellian society.

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The police has all power over everyone.

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Like you can quite easily see video clips of like small shop owners, right?

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Like coming, like berating cops, like telling them to leave

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and like all this other stuff.

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And it's like there's a little bit of like a rule breaking, like rebel spirit

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among I think some entrepreneurs.

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but I will say that at the upper levels or like if you're trying to

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do any serious level of business, it usually has to go through the party.

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and that means any number of things.

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It means like, you know, dinners, uh, which are effectively kind

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of, in my opinion, bribes.

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Right where you are.

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You know, like one of the most valuable companies in China by

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market Cap still might be the same.

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One is are the producers of mata, which are sort of like this, like, uh,

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it's like this white, uh, uh, wine, alcohol, uh, it smells like tire gas.

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It's like 88% alcohol content or something.

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I don't know.

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Like if y'all, one of the favorite things I've seen people do is like, Chinese

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people will try to trick foreigners to think it's water and they drink like a

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few, and then they're just, they're gone.

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But, um, it's also kind of like an informal index for bribery or

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corruption because they're kind of like the favorite gift to give.

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You have these like, extravagant bottles that are worth like tens of thousands

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of, um, well un and like, I guess tens of thousands of like USD or Euro if we're

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thinking about it with other currencies.

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so like, yeah, like when you have a successful business, you're

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either, you know, part of the part, uh, you know, there's about

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00:12:12,521 --> 00:12:15,131
a hundred, about like 10% I think.

231
00:12:15,566 --> 00:12:21,806
Of Chinese people are in the party itself, and you kind of have to be, uh, when

232
00:12:21,806 --> 00:12:24,266
you're like at a certain tier, right?

233
00:12:24,296 --> 00:12:26,711
Um, like if you're trying to run like a pretty sophisticated, like if you're

234
00:12:26,711 --> 00:12:30,476
running like a mom and pop shop, honestly the restrictions on you are not

235
00:12:30,476 --> 00:12:33,086
necessarily that strict as we described.

236
00:12:33,296 --> 00:12:35,156
I mean, there still are, don't get me wrong.

237
00:12:35,631 --> 00:12:41,121
if you do something that kind of makes people like that punches above your

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00:12:41,121 --> 00:12:44,541
weight, so like for example, I've been reading a lot about how recently,

239
00:12:44,541 --> 00:12:48,921
like China has been cracking down on influence per se, like people who run

240
00:12:48,921 --> 00:12:52,641
small businesses, but they might have large social media followings and,

241
00:12:52,701 --> 00:12:56,781
you know, they get kicked out of their social media followings and banned

242
00:12:56,781 --> 00:13:00,501
because they've been talking about topics that the Chinese state doesn't want.

243
00:13:00,771 --> 00:13:04,821
Like the Chinese state kind of wants this very clean and positive internet.

244
00:13:05,301 --> 00:13:10,911
And, um, what's been really funny to me is seeing how that vision is propagating into

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00:13:10,911 --> 00:13:12,441
like the quote unquote Western internet.

246
00:13:12,936 --> 00:13:16,716
Like through ING and TikTok and how everything is basically just like a

247
00:13:16,716 --> 00:13:21,186
short video that people that sells people stuff like that is actually kind of the

248
00:13:21,186 --> 00:13:23,256
Chinese internet, but it's another topic.

249
00:13:23,676 --> 00:13:31,146
But um, you know, uh, once you get to a large enough level like you're a Jack Ma

250
00:13:31,176 --> 00:13:35,976
or ma or any number of like these tech titans, like you do have to work with

251
00:13:35,976 --> 00:13:39,546
the Chinese state, the Chinese state will destroy you if you go against it.

252
00:13:39,546 --> 00:13:44,226
We did see, you know, Jack Ma and we've seen titans like get

253
00:13:44,226 --> 00:13:47,436
kidnapped from Hong Kong and come to China and things like that.

254
00:13:47,436 --> 00:13:52,626
So, uh, certainly the party keeps a really strict hold, uh, not only through

255
00:13:52,626 --> 00:13:55,686
kind of what I just described, which is like in order to build a business,

256
00:13:55,686 --> 00:13:58,746
you probably need to have people in the party enforce kind of what you're

257
00:13:58,746 --> 00:14:02,676
doing and support what you're doing and provide you with government contracts and

258
00:14:02,676 --> 00:14:07,566
government financing, but also through like at the very highest levels like you,

259
00:14:07,566 --> 00:14:11,406
if you accumulate enough economic power, you become a target and you can become.

260
00:14:12,546 --> 00:14:13,056
Destroyed.

261
00:14:13,056 --> 00:14:16,296
So that's kinda what happened with Jack Ma. That's like a famous example, right?

262
00:14:16,296 --> 00:14:20,556
Like he gave a speech and he basically said, um, you know, I think that the

263
00:14:20,556 --> 00:14:23,886
loan sectors for small businesses in China are totally broken.

264
00:14:24,426 --> 00:14:27,365
It's actually like a fairly benign, you know, statement, you know.

265
00:14:27,397 --> 00:14:30,157
and then he disappeared for like a few months, right?

266
00:14:30,157 --> 00:14:33,337
And recently he seems to have been rehabilitated, like he's shown up with

267
00:14:33,667 --> 00:14:35,137
meetings with she and stuff like that.

268
00:14:35,437 --> 00:14:38,737
Um, this also happened actually to the founder of TikTok.

269
00:14:39,232 --> 00:14:44,743
Uh, well, the founder of doin, which then acquired TikTok, who founded by dance,

270
00:14:44,833 --> 00:14:50,023
he had to apologize to the party because one of the apps he created actually, uh,

271
00:14:50,053 --> 00:14:53,863
had too much free-spirited discussion of politics and stuff like that.

272
00:14:53,863 --> 00:14:57,335
So, and hopefully that paints like kind of an accurate picture.

273
00:14:57,335 --> 00:15:01,205
I'm trying to convey that like, you know, at smaller levels it's like you, you

274
00:15:01,205 --> 00:15:05,195
know, you have some Chinese base people that people don't really know about.

275
00:15:05,405 --> 00:15:09,635
Um, but you know, as soon as you get some, any significant amount of power,

276
00:15:10,295 --> 00:15:11,705
Chinese party state can step in.

277
00:15:12,618 --> 00:15:12,908
Yeah.

278
00:15:12,908 --> 00:15:16,988
So if there's one positive about totalitarianism, it is

279
00:15:16,988 --> 00:15:18,308
that it's not sustainable.

280
00:15:20,597 --> 00:15:25,067
And, um, socialism and communism are sort of self-defeating in a way

281
00:15:25,067 --> 00:15:29,357
because the economic system doesn't allow for, for growth the same, the

282
00:15:29,357 --> 00:15:30,947
same way a capitalist system would.

283
00:15:31,247 --> 00:15:37,877
So having said that, like, uh, how much of China, how, how big is this

284
00:15:37,967 --> 00:15:40,727
the Chinese, uh, economy really?

285
00:15:40,727 --> 00:15:42,347
Like how much of a bubble is it?

286
00:15:42,377 --> 00:15:44,572
Like how, how, how fragile is it?

287
00:15:45,047 --> 00:15:50,316
Uh, you see these, uh, what, what do they call ever grande, uh, and, and all of that

288
00:15:50,316 --> 00:15:54,486
stuff, uh, the housing bubble, it's, it seems like enormous and that it's just a

289
00:15:54,486 --> 00:15:57,216
house of cards ready to go at any point.

290
00:15:57,636 --> 00:16:02,016
Is that true, or, or do you think China is like a, a real superpower?

291
00:16:02,016 --> 00:16:04,626
How much of it is, is, uh, is like

292
00:16:06,636 --> 00:16:09,006
blowfish economics?

293
00:16:09,891 --> 00:16:14,811
No, I mean, um, well, so I kind of wanna approach it there.

294
00:16:15,351 --> 00:16:18,561
There's the Chinese economy is kind of like an elephant and we're all

295
00:16:18,561 --> 00:16:20,631
feeling different parts of it, right?

296
00:16:20,841 --> 00:16:25,581
And maybe, perhaps even the party itself does not know the whole elephant.

297
00:16:26,228 --> 00:16:31,628
you know, where I kind of approached the elephant is my thesis is that

298
00:16:31,628 --> 00:16:35,258
China's economic growth during the eighties and nineties was very real,

299
00:16:35,828 --> 00:16:39,518
but I don't think it was because of what the party thinks it is.

300
00:16:39,668 --> 00:16:43,208
The party thinks it's because, you know, they tried to underemphasize this.

301
00:16:43,208 --> 00:16:48,668
But basically what happened was when Mao died, um, you know, Mao's

302
00:16:48,938 --> 00:16:51,668
economic policies were like totally.

303
00:16:52,328 --> 00:16:53,798
Very coordinated state court.

304
00:16:53,858 --> 00:16:58,268
They, they were like very Marxist, Leninist and, uh, led to disaster, right?

305
00:16:58,268 --> 00:17:02,468
Like, so for example, he told people to build pig iron in their backyards.

306
00:17:02,468 --> 00:17:05,168
He, uh, told people to kill the sparrows.

307
00:17:05,438 --> 00:17:06,578
And that led to famine.

308
00:17:06,578 --> 00:17:10,538
And that led to, you know, like misappropriation of resources and,

309
00:17:10,568 --> 00:17:12,368
you know, millions died possibly.

310
00:17:12,728 --> 00:17:15,728
You know, I, I, you can make an argument that Mao killed the most

311
00:17:15,728 --> 00:17:17,708
people in human history potentially.

312
00:17:18,008 --> 00:17:18,548
Yeah.

313
00:17:18,981 --> 00:17:24,021
so certainly the China after that is different in the sense of like,

314
00:17:24,081 --> 00:17:26,451
they reluctantly embraced markets.

315
00:17:27,336 --> 00:17:32,346
Um, and so one of the first things that started happening in the 1980s is you

316
00:17:32,346 --> 00:17:34,296
had the beginnings of private enterprise.

317
00:17:34,296 --> 00:17:37,116
So at the beginning with Mao, you could not actually start a private company

318
00:17:37,116 --> 00:17:39,246
and you could not have private profit.

319
00:17:39,306 --> 00:17:43,595
But, after d Xiaoping and kind of his economic advisors came in after Mao's

320
00:17:43,595 --> 00:17:45,575
death, that actually became the change.

321
00:17:45,575 --> 00:17:48,545
This is called the reform and opening up period, uh, which I do

322
00:17:48,545 --> 00:17:50,645
cover in some of the book chapter.

323
00:17:51,182 --> 00:17:56,672
and I think during that phase, to me what it was is that the Chinese people, so like

324
00:17:56,672 --> 00:18:01,947
long suffering under like bad economics and things like that, they did have, I

325
00:18:01,947 --> 00:18:06,207
mean, I, I want to be very clear that I think Mao was a blood thirsty tyrant.

326
00:18:06,207 --> 00:18:11,487
But one thing he did do was he implemented a unified language and the education

327
00:18:11,487 --> 00:18:13,137
system was like, relatively okay.

328
00:18:13,137 --> 00:18:14,547
So like literacy rates were up.

329
00:18:14,847 --> 00:18:17,757
He did this thing where he simplified Mandarin to this day, that's the,

330
00:18:17,762 --> 00:18:19,557
the distinction that kind of persist.

331
00:18:20,037 --> 00:18:21,927
And so it's kind of like, um.

332
00:18:22,827 --> 00:18:25,587
You know, because the reason why I bring this up is there's a lot of interesting

333
00:18:25,587 --> 00:18:29,457
debates between why India and China have grown, like at different rates.

334
00:18:29,877 --> 00:18:33,417
And one reason that's been cited is 'cause India has like so many languages

335
00:18:33,417 --> 00:18:35,097
in all the different places, right?

336
00:18:35,097 --> 00:18:40,107
And in China there was kind of this baseline of like a, a unified language

337
00:18:40,107 --> 00:18:43,707
that was kind of simplified and like you were able to easily like write it

338
00:18:43,707 --> 00:18:45,507
out and type a traditional Mandarin.

339
00:18:45,687 --> 00:18:46,857
Very beautiful by the way.

340
00:18:47,067 --> 00:18:49,197
Um, I have a deep appreciation for it.

341
00:18:49,197 --> 00:18:53,607
Like, uh, actually some of my family was like a calligrapher and if you've

342
00:18:53,607 --> 00:18:56,847
ever seen like the ink and everything like that, that's like the beauty

343
00:18:56,847 --> 00:18:59,067
of traditional Mandarin Chinese.

344
00:18:59,127 --> 00:19:02,926
Um, but you know, simplified makes it a lot easier, removes

345
00:19:02,926 --> 00:19:04,216
all these like different strokes.

346
00:19:04,216 --> 00:19:06,886
It's a lot less poetic, but it's a lot easier to read and

347
00:19:06,886 --> 00:19:08,236
it's a lot easier to understand.

348
00:19:08,626 --> 00:19:10,456
And there was like more literacy.

349
00:19:10,486 --> 00:19:13,366
And so there was that kind of, that foundation that was growing.

350
00:19:13,696 --> 00:19:16,915
And then, d Xiaoping allowed private enterprise.

351
00:19:17,275 --> 00:19:20,305
So you have like this like population that was growing.

352
00:19:20,305 --> 00:19:24,295
There was about seven children per woman in like the 1960s.

353
00:19:24,295 --> 00:19:27,265
And you know, they were all looking for opportunity.

354
00:19:27,265 --> 00:19:30,835
And then oping goes and says, it's glorious to get rich.

355
00:19:31,315 --> 00:19:33,325
You know, it doesn't matter if it's a black cat or a white

356
00:19:33,325 --> 00:19:34,945
cat, as long as it hunts mice.

357
00:19:34,945 --> 00:19:36,955
Well, um, you know, it's a good cat.

358
00:19:37,465 --> 00:19:40,765
And so people started getting the groove of like, oh, we can become entrepreneurs.

359
00:19:40,765 --> 00:19:43,105
And you have all these crazy stories in China.

360
00:19:43,105 --> 00:19:47,035
Like you have like, you know, like everyone is the king of something,

361
00:19:47,545 --> 00:19:49,135
but or the queen of something.

362
00:19:49,285 --> 00:19:53,155
Like there's the trash queen and there's the paper king, the PaperClick queen.

363
00:19:53,365 --> 00:19:54,775
You think like, these are very small things, right?

364
00:19:54,775 --> 00:19:59,035
But China has so many people that like being the trash queen

365
00:19:59,035 --> 00:20:02,065
or whatever is like a multi.

366
00:20:02,905 --> 00:20:07,285
Million dollar business, multi-billion dollar business, you know, um, like

367
00:20:07,285 --> 00:20:11,365
if you are producing a very small widget, but you're producing it for

368
00:20:11,425 --> 00:20:15,535
1 billion people, like that is a very profitable business in of itself.

369
00:20:15,925 --> 00:20:20,485
Um, so I think the eighties and nineties were really like the unleashing of

370
00:20:20,485 --> 00:20:22,705
kind of like the Chinese people.

371
00:20:23,035 --> 00:20:24,595
They became like entrepreneurs.

372
00:20:24,595 --> 00:20:28,345
And one thing I'll say is, you know, I talk quite a bit with Chinese

373
00:20:28,345 --> 00:20:31,675
entrepreneurs and they still have that like hardnosed kind of mentality.

374
00:20:31,675 --> 00:20:33,505
They're building businesses and stuff like that.

375
00:20:33,805 --> 00:20:37,405
And in Bitcoin, I mean, you know, we can go into it, but you see

376
00:20:37,405 --> 00:20:38,515
some of the results of that, right?

377
00:20:38,515 --> 00:20:42,265
Like, I mean, we all talk about how like Bitmain is a centralizing force,

378
00:20:42,655 --> 00:20:46,525
but it's also kind of impressive that they like built this like business

379
00:20:46,525 --> 00:20:47,905
out of like basically nothing.

380
00:20:47,935 --> 00:20:50,965
And they were also like the Chinese government was like kind of against

381
00:20:50,965 --> 00:20:53,155
Bitmain at the very beginning, right?

382
00:20:53,575 --> 00:20:58,000
Um, so anyways, I. But there's also some links between, but we can

383
00:20:58,060 --> 00:20:59,470
talk about that a little bit more.

384
00:20:59,470 --> 00:21:02,800
But the point I'm trying to make here is that that part feels real.

385
00:21:03,010 --> 00:21:08,110
I think, uh, ever since she has come to power, um, it's become more and

386
00:21:08,110 --> 00:21:10,330
more bubble like, in my opinion.

387
00:21:10,780 --> 00:21:16,030
And they kind of do this game where, uh, I've heard anecdotes where she is like,

388
00:21:16,270 --> 00:21:22,150
Hey, why are there not more unicorns, uh, being built today to like a group of VCs?

389
00:21:22,570 --> 00:21:25,630
And people are like, well, who should tell him?

390
00:21:25,900 --> 00:21:29,770
Because he's also playing this game of like, Hey, like markets are bad.

391
00:21:29,890 --> 00:21:34,900
And like, you know, real estate should be for, uh, the common person should

392
00:21:34,900 --> 00:21:36,880
be for living and not for speculation.

393
00:21:37,420 --> 00:21:40,930
Okay, but now ever grand is failing because it's a real estate developer and

394
00:21:40,930 --> 00:21:45,370
you've suddenly made clear that like you, it can't benefit from the loan financing.

395
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,670
Um, and that has a lot of dramatic consequences for,

396
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:49,900
you know, the Chinese economy.

397
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,410
So then now what they're doing is because of the tariffs and everything

398
00:21:53,410 --> 00:21:56,470
like that, she is sitting down and he's sitting down with all these

399
00:21:56,470 --> 00:22:00,580
industry titans, and now they've come up with a plan to increase consumption.

400
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:03,580
So now it's like, well, let's go.

401
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,080
Markets are good.

402
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,260
And also, like everything we said about speculation, like we're gonna

403
00:22:08,260 --> 00:22:10,390
reign that in a little bit, right?

404
00:22:10,450 --> 00:22:12,730
Um, so that's kinda like the tension of the party today.

405
00:22:12,790 --> 00:22:19,300
Um, I do think that government stats are at least at best, directionally

406
00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:21,430
correct, and they censor people.

407
00:22:21,430 --> 00:22:24,970
They've arrested economists who like question figures and things like that.

408
00:22:24,970 --> 00:22:27,010
So, you know, again, who knows really.

409
00:22:27,629 --> 00:22:31,079
I do think that growth has slowed down, and I think growth will

410
00:22:31,079 --> 00:22:33,389
continue to be quite stagnant.

411
00:22:33,389 --> 00:22:36,749
That the China that we see now is gonna be very different from the

412
00:22:36,749 --> 00:22:41,249
China of the eighties and nineties, thousands, where, um, you know, that

413
00:22:41,369 --> 00:22:43,949
was where the majority of Chinese economic growth really happened.

414
00:22:44,609 --> 00:22:48,928
Um, and I think part of that is because Xi Jinping is kind of, unlike

415
00:22:48,928 --> 00:22:53,008
previous leaders really trying to eat his cake right now and, and trying

416
00:22:53,008 --> 00:22:57,508
to remember, like, it's almost this whole thing where there's a lot of,

417
00:22:57,568 --> 00:23:00,958
uh, interesting podcast interviews with like early party figures where they're

418
00:23:00,958 --> 00:23:03,328
like, we're lucky embracing markets.

419
00:23:04,078 --> 00:23:08,878
And they see it as kinda like a weapon to, to consolidate the party's rule.

420
00:23:08,878 --> 00:23:12,298
But it is a double-edged sword because they're fundamentally, the party

421
00:23:12,298 --> 00:23:17,398
is kind of like the ideology of the party is against markets, right.

422
00:23:17,548 --> 00:23:21,868
Yeah, this is so funny because like, it reminds me a lot of, of what I've read

423
00:23:21,868 --> 00:23:26,398
about the Soviet Union, uh, like when, when, uh, the, the, the last days of

424
00:23:26,398 --> 00:23:30,478
Stalin, for instance, when no doctor dared to tell him that something was wrong.

425
00:23:30,538 --> 00:23:34,288
Because like, no one, no one is incentivized to be the bearer of bad

426
00:23:34,288 --> 00:23:38,788
news in that kinda society, which incentivizes everyone to be a liar.

427
00:23:38,788 --> 00:23:41,098
Same thing with a Chernobyl accident.

428
00:23:41,398 --> 00:23:45,148
It's just basically a chain of people not addressing the problem because

429
00:23:45,148 --> 00:23:48,478
they have no one, uh, no incentive to do so because they will be

430
00:23:48,478 --> 00:23:50,458
punished like it, and it's horrible.

431
00:23:50,458 --> 00:23:53,248
Like, and of course it isn't sustainable.

432
00:23:53,398 --> 00:24:00,148
So in your mind, what, what would it take for China to like end like the

433
00:24:00,148 --> 00:24:05,098
Soviet Union did in a way like, uh, for, for, for the ccp CP to, to just.

434
00:24:06,043 --> 00:24:07,723
Disintegrate and go away.

435
00:24:07,723 --> 00:24:13,723
Like is, uh, and the firewall is torn down, like, uh, with, uh, you

436
00:24:13,723 --> 00:24:16,093
know, what was it, what's his name?

437
00:24:16,273 --> 00:24:19,753
Uh, the guy who played on the Berlin Wall when that fell.

438
00:24:19,813 --> 00:24:20,203
Yeah.

439
00:24:20,353 --> 00:24:21,253
David Hasselhoff.

440
00:24:22,153 --> 00:24:22,603
Davidoff played

441
00:24:22,873 --> 00:24:23,233
really well.

442
00:24:23,278 --> 00:24:28,048
David David Hasselhoff had a concert on the Berlin Wall with a blinking jacket.

443
00:24:28,408 --> 00:24:29,638
Uh, it was glorious.

444
00:24:29,908 --> 00:24:34,408
Uh, anyway, so, so is that, is that even possible within our lifetimes?

445
00:24:34,408 --> 00:24:38,671
What, what do you, what do you see, like, uh, can, can Bitcoin like, can

446
00:24:38,671 --> 00:24:41,911
the Chinese people start using Bitcoin and just get around all of this?

447
00:24:41,911 --> 00:24:43,501
Is the, is this even possible?

448
00:24:43,711 --> 00:24:45,601
Is there a second revolution coming?

449
00:24:46,876 --> 00:24:47,086
Yeah.

450
00:24:47,091 --> 00:24:48,586
This is like a really vast question.

451
00:24:48,646 --> 00:24:49,336
Um,

452
00:24:49,636 --> 00:24:53,026
I, you know, I, I, I, I wanna, I wanna start by, okay.

453
00:24:53,026 --> 00:24:54,916
So I'll, I'll kind of break down a few things.

454
00:24:55,006 --> 00:24:58,156
Um, so actually continue from the previous discussion.

455
00:24:58,516 --> 00:25:02,116
So when we talked about like the Chinese economy being like a bubble, one thing

456
00:25:02,116 --> 00:25:05,056
China does have going for it right now at this point is that it is the

457
00:25:05,056 --> 00:25:06,436
manufacturing superpower of the world.

458
00:25:07,546 --> 00:25:08,716
That is unquestionable.

459
00:25:08,776 --> 00:25:12,226
And whether the Chinese state is going to, they also produce the most

460
00:25:12,226 --> 00:25:13,756
electricity in the world, et cetera.

461
00:25:14,056 --> 00:25:18,826
So whether the Chinese state is gonna use that for war or use that for, you

462
00:25:18,826 --> 00:25:22,096
know, consolidated economic advantage, that's certainly something they have.

463
00:25:22,456 --> 00:25:26,536
Um, and one thing I would point out, 'cause I think right now there's this

464
00:25:26,536 --> 00:25:30,616
big like, tariff war and the idea is like, well we wanna bring those, uh,

465
00:25:30,646 --> 00:25:32,356
manufacturing jobs back to the west.

466
00:25:32,776 --> 00:25:36,556
But, um, actually China is the most advanced country in using robotics.

467
00:25:37,186 --> 00:25:42,256
So really, um, if you look at the figures, the United States is vastly underusing

468
00:25:42,256 --> 00:25:44,596
robotics and China's vastly overusing.

469
00:25:46,636 --> 00:25:50,356
Um, so there are actually entire factories in China, they call them like one

470
00:25:50,356 --> 00:25:52,877
person, you know, one person factories.

471
00:25:52,877 --> 00:25:54,587
It was one person managing the whole thing.

472
00:25:54,827 --> 00:25:57,287
And it produces about like one phone a second or something.

473
00:25:58,632 --> 00:26:02,087
I, I, I heard somewhere that the cost of an iPhone is, is

474
00:26:02,087 --> 00:26:04,547
10 bucks the production cost?

475
00:26:05,147 --> 00:26:08,687
Yeah, it's, it, it's crazy how, you know, Foxconn and, and that

476
00:26:08,687 --> 00:26:10,187
has come at a lot of human costs.

477
00:26:10,187 --> 00:26:12,827
I don't wanna, you know, Foxconn had a lot of worker suicides and

478
00:26:12,827 --> 00:26:14,057
things like that, so I, I do want to

479
00:26:14,357 --> 00:26:15,182
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

480
00:26:15,647 --> 00:26:16,007
Yeah.

481
00:26:16,067 --> 00:26:17,477
But, um, it, it is,

482
00:26:17,537 --> 00:26:18,617
pays to the factory.

483
00:26:18,617 --> 00:26:20,687
I mean, like, that's their production

484
00:26:20,837 --> 00:26:24,647
I also, apple has made, I actually wrote this specifically in the book,

485
00:26:24,647 --> 00:26:25,427
so I wanted to make that point.

486
00:26:25,427 --> 00:26:29,687
Apple has made a deal with the devil 'cause they, uh, you know, 'cause

487
00:26:29,687 --> 00:26:33,767
Foxconn and they also censor apps on behalf of, uh, the Chinese government.

488
00:26:35,027 --> 00:26:36,257
A big no-no in my books.

489
00:26:36,317 --> 00:26:40,847
Um, but yeah, so the Chinese economy has that advantage going for it, like,

490
00:26:40,967 --> 00:26:45,947
you know, and I think if it goes to war, that will be a very unique advantage.

491
00:26:46,607 --> 00:26:49,817
Example, you know, a lot of people have talked about it, like, uh,

492
00:26:49,817 --> 00:26:51,677
shit building and stuff like that.

493
00:26:51,677 --> 00:26:55,607
So, um, drones, drones are all manufactured in China through

494
00:26:55,607 --> 00:26:59,027
DGI, uh, a lot of like, hardware and software components, uh, are

495
00:26:59,027 --> 00:27:00,377
at this point are made in China.

496
00:27:00,917 --> 00:27:05,747
Um, so there, that is an advantage the Chinese state has, and this gives it a

497
00:27:05,747 --> 00:27:08,567
unique power and position in geopolitics.

498
00:27:08,837 --> 00:27:14,117
Now, I'm gonna say two things, um, that will kind of run our perspective here.

499
00:27:14,297 --> 00:27:17,327
The first is, when I'm asked this question, I always tell people like,

500
00:27:17,687 --> 00:27:18,797
I, I'm kind of the same with Bitcoin.

501
00:27:19,217 --> 00:27:23,147
I never, I know directionally it's gonna go up.

502
00:27:23,927 --> 00:27:29,207
I never, I am way, I wouldn't qualify to specify exactly when it will

503
00:27:29,207 --> 00:27:32,747
happen or what will happen when, so that is kind of like my take.

504
00:27:33,287 --> 00:27:38,897
And um, I guess like China, there's been a lot of books written by people

505
00:27:38,897 --> 00:27:41,747
like Jordan Chang and stuff like that where they're like, this is the year

506
00:27:41,747 --> 00:27:43,247
the Chinese Communist Party fails.

507
00:27:43,427 --> 00:27:43,697
Right.

508
00:27:43,697 --> 00:27:48,677
And if you track it, it's like 20 12, 20 15, 20 18, 20 22.

509
00:27:48,677 --> 00:27:51,587
Like it just keeps on the day, keeps on changing, right.

510
00:27:51,857 --> 00:27:54,287
So I'm not one of those people.

511
00:27:54,377 --> 00:28:00,527
And uh, so I'll give kind of like a bull case and a bear, a

512
00:28:00,527 --> 00:28:02,237
bear case kind of for the party.

513
00:28:02,687 --> 00:28:06,287
So the bull case of the party is actually, uh, I've been reading a lot about

514
00:28:06,317 --> 00:28:11,237
Iran and if you think about it, Iran, the modern iteration of Iran, pretty

515
00:28:11,237 --> 00:28:13,607
similar age to de Xiaoping's China.

516
00:28:14,267 --> 00:28:18,497
They both kind of in the late seventies, actually, 1979, you

517
00:28:18,497 --> 00:28:20,507
know, kind of emerged and Iran.

518
00:28:21,392 --> 00:28:25,832
Has a lot of reasons as a state that I think make it very, very weak.

519
00:28:26,012 --> 00:28:29,162
Like it doesn't have control over its own manufacturing capability.

520
00:28:29,492 --> 00:28:30,812
It has multiple sanctions.

521
00:28:30,812 --> 00:28:34,502
It has many enemies, many capable enemies in the region, right?

522
00:28:34,502 --> 00:28:39,572
It has tried to, uh, you know, be participate in wars, uh,

523
00:28:39,572 --> 00:28:40,802
across different frontiers.

524
00:28:40,802 --> 00:28:42,782
It has been unsuccessful to a certain degree.

525
00:28:43,142 --> 00:28:47,432
And you would think that based off of that and the treatment of, you know, Iranian

526
00:28:47,432 --> 00:28:52,052
woman and all this and, and everything, that the Iranian government might fall

527
00:28:52,112 --> 00:28:54,782
anytime soon, but it's still persisted.

528
00:28:54,782 --> 00:28:59,792
And so there's a little bit of a, like, you know, generally I think that, um,

529
00:28:59,822 --> 00:29:05,042
for your generation, sorry, I'm just, I, I know from your podcast that you're

530
00:29:05,042 --> 00:29:10,532
a little bit older, um, that, uh, you know, I think that's when you all saw

531
00:29:10,532 --> 00:29:11,972
like the fall of the Soviet Union.

532
00:29:12,572 --> 00:29:17,402
So it was like all those dictatorships were coming down at once.

533
00:29:17,402 --> 00:29:20,222
And since then, I don't think we've really seen.

534
00:29:20,972 --> 00:29:22,322
Like movement in that way.

535
00:29:22,322 --> 00:29:26,072
Like I haven't actually, what happened in Syria is like kind of a really

536
00:29:26,072 --> 00:29:27,962
big exception to that rule, I think.

537
00:29:29,147 --> 00:29:32,987
Well, there was the Congo, but no, no one covered that in the West.

538
00:29:34,022 --> 00:29:34,292
Well, yeah.

539
00:29:34,292 --> 00:29:35,432
I mean there's, there's been other

540
00:29:35,432 --> 00:29:38,912
governments too and you know, like there's been, yeah, there's been other, like

541
00:29:38,912 --> 00:29:41,642
Sudan has split into two and all this other stuff, but,

542
00:29:42,152 --> 00:29:42,392
um.

543
00:29:42,632 --> 00:29:43,232
Anyway.

544
00:29:43,652 --> 00:29:48,512
No, but, but I still remember when the Berlin War fell, fell on Soviet Union.

545
00:29:48,512 --> 00:29:52,412
Just, just didn't exist anymore from one day to the other.

546
00:29:52,412 --> 00:29:56,792
It was, uh, like I, I was, uh, young at the time, of course, in my

547
00:29:56,792 --> 00:29:59,762
like preteens, uh, or early teens.

548
00:30:00,122 --> 00:30:05,972
And, uh, uh, it was just bizarre because we grew up in the Cold War and we're

549
00:30:05,972 --> 00:30:08,162
told that this is the way things are.

550
00:30:08,162 --> 00:30:13,682
And, uh, the, like Sweden, uh, uh, advertised itself as being neutral

551
00:30:13,682 --> 00:30:18,032
in, in like in cheering for the west or the east because there

552
00:30:18,032 --> 00:30:19,832
were a lot of social socialism.

553
00:30:21,002 --> 00:30:23,312
Socialist propaganda in Sweden as well.

554
00:30:23,762 --> 00:30:27,722
Uh, so, so we were sort of taught that this is the way things are

555
00:30:27,722 --> 00:30:31,442
and we'll just have to wait and see which system, uh, becomes the,

556
00:30:31,592 --> 00:30:33,032
the dominant one in the world.

557
00:30:33,092 --> 00:30:36,212
And then all of a sudden, one of the powers just disappeared.

558
00:30:36,212 --> 00:30:40,262
And it turns out it was way worse than ever anyone had that very

559
00:30:40,262 --> 00:30:42,077
imagined, especially a journalist.

560
00:30:42,716 --> 00:30:46,466
Yeah, no, I, and I mean, like, I, I just think that we live in a different

561
00:30:46,466 --> 00:30:50,246
era now where if you have expectations like that from before, like you saw

562
00:30:50,246 --> 00:30:54,626
the fall of so many different communist dictatorships and then, uh, you know,

563
00:30:54,626 --> 00:30:58,196
you live in our era where, you know, change of government is very gradual.

564
00:30:58,196 --> 00:31:01,016
So I, you know, China is so much stronger than Iran.

565
00:31:01,021 --> 00:31:06,686
So, you know, I, I, I see there being some natural inertia or like, we

566
00:31:06,686 --> 00:31:11,396
used to think that time was on our side in the sense of like liberty

567
00:31:11,396 --> 00:31:12,866
and democracy and freedom, right?

568
00:31:12,866 --> 00:31:16,946
Like the idea was China would embrace capitalism to a certain degree and

569
00:31:16,946 --> 00:31:21,776
markets and therefore its, people would inevitably kind of, you know, uh, revolt.

570
00:31:21,776 --> 00:31:24,056
And I almost turn that around now.

571
00:31:24,086 --> 00:31:28,136
It's like the inertia of state control has actually helped participate that.

572
00:31:28,196 --> 00:31:33,146
But now having said that, and all that bloom and doomy, I will say

573
00:31:33,146 --> 00:31:39,836
one thing, um, China is the epitome of, uh, gradually then suddenly.

574
00:31:40,601 --> 00:31:44,321
Um, and so this is actually also what makes really

575
00:31:44,321 --> 00:31:45,461
difficult to predictable happen.

576
00:31:45,791 --> 00:31:50,921
Um, because for example, you know, one of the, one of the things I I criticize Marx

577
00:31:50,921 --> 00:31:53,531
the most for, um, Marx is quite racist.

578
00:31:53,771 --> 00:31:58,616
Um, I think people forget that, but um, he actually, um, I'm, I'm

579
00:31:58,616 --> 00:32:00,611
fine with having that highlighted in a short or something, but,

580
00:32:01,196 --> 00:32:03,026
was very, very racist.

581
00:32:03,371 --> 00:32:05,231
anti-Semitic as well, which is very ironic.

582
00:32:05,501 --> 00:32:12,251
Um, and um, so he, uh, you know, one of the things was he called

583
00:32:12,251 --> 00:32:15,551
China, like an ossified society that would like never change.

584
00:32:16,721 --> 00:32:22,241
And, um, ironically generation after China produced the most

585
00:32:22,241 --> 00:32:25,961
explosive change and it happened in the, like span of a few months.

586
00:32:26,434 --> 00:32:31,475
and basically there was all, the dynastic rule came to an end in 1911

587
00:32:31,505 --> 00:32:35,375
in the first revolution that be, that, uh, made China into a republic.

588
00:32:36,410 --> 00:32:41,090
And it was so fast that Sonen, who actually led the, some considered

589
00:32:41,090 --> 00:32:44,750
to be the father of the Republic of China, like he was teaching in Japan

590
00:32:44,750 --> 00:32:50,360
in exile or something, had to like rush him back to, to like lead the, uh,

591
00:32:50,390 --> 00:32:51,890
lead the troops and stuff like that.

592
00:32:51,950 --> 00:32:57,620
Um, so, you know, that's one thing I would say, like, don't underestimate

593
00:32:57,740 --> 00:33:02,180
the Chinese people's potential for change and explosive change.

594
00:33:02,660 --> 00:33:07,220
Um, you know, China probably oversaw the most something that

595
00:33:07,460 --> 00:33:08,900
no one predicted, you know?

596
00:33:08,990 --> 00:33:13,798
Um, you know, very few people predicted, you know, when Marx was calling the

597
00:33:13,798 --> 00:33:17,818
typing revolution like backwards and all this other stuff, like, well,

598
00:33:17,818 --> 00:33:21,688
within 50 years, like the Chinese people in the span of a few months

599
00:33:21,988 --> 00:33:28,350
were able to get rid of thousands of years of imperial rule and in a, in a

600
00:33:28,355 --> 00:33:30,268
fairly peaceful revolution actually.

601
00:33:30,538 --> 00:33:32,608
I mean, there was blood and, and everything like that.

602
00:33:32,608 --> 00:33:33,958
There were warlords, but it was.

603
00:33:34,918 --> 00:33:37,408
Like a, a pretty, um, impressive feat.

604
00:35:42,173 --> 00:35:46,748
Yeah, this is, this is very positive because like, I think people

605
00:35:46,748 --> 00:35:49,268
underestimate how damn big this thing is.

606
00:35:49,418 --> 00:35:54,668
Like, uh, what, what is like 1.4 billion people is the official number, right?

607
00:35:55,148 --> 00:35:58,178
Uh, I guess that that number comes from the government, so

608
00:35:58,178 --> 00:35:59,558
it might be slightly inflated.

609
00:36:00,338 --> 00:36:06,128
But if it's true, that means there, there are 144 Chinese people per swed and

610
00:36:06,128 --> 00:36:09,488
like probably 200 per fin in the world.

611
00:36:09,908 --> 00:36:11,858
Uh, which makes it so vast.

612
00:36:11,858 --> 00:36:12,578
It's so big.

613
00:36:12,578 --> 00:36:17,258
And that must mean like if you have a normal bell curve distribution of

614
00:36:17,258 --> 00:36:24,038
brains, you have, uh, 144 times more geniuses in China than in Sweden.

615
00:36:24,278 --> 00:36:31,688
So, so the, and this is, uh, from, just from statistics and, and even if,

616
00:36:31,748 --> 00:36:36,938
uh, China's internet is very shielded from the rest of the world, it's

617
00:36:36,968 --> 00:36:38,498
still one and a half billion people.

618
00:36:38,558 --> 00:36:40,418
That's, that's huge.

619
00:36:40,448 --> 00:36:45,278
It's like, so, so if, and even with somewhat suppressed and, and censored

620
00:36:45,278 --> 00:36:50,258
free freedom of speech there, like if these people just talk to one another

621
00:36:50,258 --> 00:36:54,732
long enough, they will start to break free from, from, uh, their shackles.

622
00:36:54,732 --> 00:36:56,022
There, there, there's like, uh.

623
00:36:56,802 --> 00:36:59,397
I, I, I, I happen to be an optimist.

624
00:36:59,637 --> 00:37:04,227
Uh, and I think these powers are just as, as, uh, they're, they're rarely mentioned,

625
00:37:04,227 --> 00:37:10,917
especially by these doom porn, black pill, uh, salesman, FUD salesman as I call them,

626
00:37:11,217 --> 00:37:13,197
uh, which are popular on the internet too.

627
00:37:13,197 --> 00:37:17,187
But the, the internet is first and foremost a force for good because it

628
00:37:17,187 --> 00:37:20,817
makes people talk and makes people have conversations like, like this one.

629
00:37:20,817 --> 00:37:24,807
And, uh, these, this stuff like this must happen all over China

630
00:37:25,197 --> 00:37:28,527
all the time, regardless of what the, the government thinks of it.

631
00:37:28,527 --> 00:37:28,737
Right.

632
00:37:28,797 --> 00:37:30,147
Uh, am I right about that or What

633
00:37:30,657 --> 00:37:30,897
What do you

634
00:37:31,107 --> 00:37:31,347
Yeah.

635
00:37:31,347 --> 00:37:34,197
Well, you, you also asked before like how, and we'll, we'll

636
00:37:34,197 --> 00:37:35,727
finally get to Bitcoin at minute.

637
00:37:36,163 --> 00:37:40,213
you know, I have a lot of hope because I've navigated Chinese internet.

638
00:37:40,273 --> 00:37:43,933
Um, and there are a lot of different pockets that gimme a lot of hope.

639
00:37:43,933 --> 00:37:47,413
First, there are, uh, some cipher punks in China, which

640
00:37:47,413 --> 00:37:48,403
is really, really cool to see.

641
00:37:49,063 --> 00:37:52,513
Um, and there are also Bitcoin only Cipher punks cool to see.

642
00:37:53,053 --> 00:37:56,773
Um, so people who are embracing encryption and who are actually

643
00:37:56,773 --> 00:37:58,573
building tools to help.

644
00:37:59,548 --> 00:38:01,258
Defray against the state's power.

645
00:38:01,258 --> 00:38:02,698
So that certainly exists.

646
00:38:02,758 --> 00:38:05,578
Uh, I have, I've written about it a few times, but there's a few

647
00:38:05,578 --> 00:38:06,958
Chinese people who post on Nostri.

648
00:38:06,958 --> 00:38:09,448
There's like kind of like a boost at a certain period of time.

649
00:38:09,448 --> 00:38:12,808
Like some of 'em have kind of tailed off, but people still post, uh, stuff

650
00:38:12,808 --> 00:38:16,438
on Nostri and there's a lot of Bitcoin technical resources and things like

651
00:38:16,438 --> 00:38:17,998
that that get translated into Mandarin.

652
00:38:18,148 --> 00:38:20,068
So that's very much alive.

653
00:38:20,355 --> 00:38:24,585
and one thing before I get into the specifics of Bitcoin, um,

654
00:38:24,585 --> 00:38:27,165
I kind of wanna share like a couple stories that give me hope.

655
00:38:27,165 --> 00:38:31,095
Like one is, um, you know, I was talking to someone who they were telling me like,

656
00:38:31,095 --> 00:38:34,305
Hey, like, you know, ever since I've actually learned more about Bitcoin,

657
00:38:34,335 --> 00:38:38,475
not only have I decided like maybe the digital yen is like a terrible idea,

658
00:38:38,835 --> 00:38:42,735
but also I've deleted my WeChat pay and my Alipay because I see them as like

659
00:38:42,735 --> 00:38:44,295
parts of like, you know, state control.

660
00:38:44,895 --> 00:38:50,100
And, um, you see these stories where I. You know, I had another story I

661
00:38:50,100 --> 00:38:54,240
had, this is less Bitcoin related, but, um, I went to a Tannin Square

662
00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:58,650
event where there were, uh, a lot of the tannin square leaders at the time.

663
00:38:59,192 --> 00:39:05,072
and, uh, you know, this one woman who was a student, uh, who was attending Harvard.

664
00:39:05,417 --> 00:39:09,330
Uh, at the time, you know, they came up, and actually went to the

665
00:39:09,330 --> 00:39:11,610
panel speakers and they were like, oh, I had no idea this happened.

666
00:39:11,610 --> 00:39:15,060
And this makes me rethink like what happened with the government and this

667
00:39:15,060 --> 00:39:17,640
makes me rethink my perception of the government and everything like that.

668
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,630
So there's certainly these stories that are like cracks in the veil.

669
00:39:22,050 --> 00:39:26,100
And, uh, what I would say about the Chinese internet is actually

670
00:39:26,100 --> 00:39:27,900
that it's very alive and dynamic.

671
00:39:27,930 --> 00:39:28,770
I know that.

672
00:39:28,950 --> 00:39:31,560
And we can talk about the specifics of like how censorship

673
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:32,880
happens and things like that.

674
00:39:33,150 --> 00:39:36,120
And don't get me wrong, people get arrested for saying things and

675
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:37,440
sometimes it's like really ridiculous.

676
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,010
Like you, you've had people get arrested for like tweeting glory to

677
00:39:41,010 --> 00:39:43,380
Hong Kong for like 150 people, right?

678
00:39:43,380 --> 00:39:46,980
Like that, you know, it's like, like I I, in talking with a few friends

679
00:39:46,980 --> 00:39:50,400
about it, what we find kind of scary about the Chinese security state,

680
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:51,540
it's like a little bit random.

681
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:53,190
They almost like chaos monkey.

682
00:39:54,005 --> 00:39:56,225
It's almost the opposite of what I described to you of like, if you're

683
00:39:56,225 --> 00:39:59,045
small enough, they don't, they leave you alone if you're a physical business.

684
00:39:59,285 --> 00:40:02,975
But if you're online and you're talking shop and they're like, you can be

685
00:40:02,975 --> 00:40:04,655
really small and they will go after you.

686
00:40:04,655 --> 00:40:06,785
So that's kind of a little bit weird to me.

687
00:40:07,205 --> 00:40:10,505
Whereas I think like other governments are a little bit more like, oh, well

688
00:40:10,505 --> 00:40:14,525
let's wait until this person has like more influence and reach or whatever.

689
00:40:14,525 --> 00:40:17,855
Like the Chinese state has gone after really small people to

690
00:40:17,855 --> 00:40:18,995
like make examples, I think.

691
00:40:19,829 --> 00:40:23,249
but having said that, even though there are a lot of dramatic consequences

692
00:40:23,309 --> 00:40:26,876
and maybe because there are dramatic consequences, the Chinese Internet's

693
00:40:26,876 --> 00:40:32,426
like very alive and very sarcastic and very ironic and you know, like I, uh, and

694
00:40:32,426 --> 00:40:36,476
you see people who are like subverting the party like all the time on there.

695
00:40:36,806 --> 00:40:37,526
Different things.

696
00:40:37,526 --> 00:40:40,226
Like, so for example, like, um, I'll give you an example.

697
00:40:40,226 --> 00:40:42,596
Like there's uh, a sensitive date.

698
00:40:42,896 --> 00:40:49,376
So Mao's uh, eldest son died supposedly 'cause he was cooking like egg fried rice.

699
00:40:49,691 --> 00:40:51,941
Like, and then the Americans bombed the site.

700
00:40:52,001 --> 00:40:52,541
They found it.

701
00:40:52,541 --> 00:40:55,721
I mean, who knows which story is true or not true, but there's a,

702
00:40:55,721 --> 00:40:59,441
there is a date where you're not supposed to talk about egg fried rice.

703
00:40:59,852 --> 00:41:02,042
and then everybody just talks about egg fried rice.

704
00:41:02,402 --> 00:41:07,292
So it's like, you know, like there's a lot of that kind of level of, of stuff.

705
00:41:07,292 --> 00:41:09,842
So the Chinese internet's like a lot more alive than people realize.

706
00:41:09,842 --> 00:41:14,162
Like Chinese people are not like, to your earlier point, you like, I mean just

707
00:41:14,372 --> 00:41:15,572
based off the distribution of people.

708
00:41:15,572 --> 00:41:16,622
Like Chinese people aren't dumb.

709
00:41:17,132 --> 00:41:19,292
Like there are a lot of really smart Chinese people.

710
00:41:19,292 --> 00:41:22,292
And yeah, they have consequences attached to their online identities

711
00:41:22,292 --> 00:41:25,232
and actions, but some of them, you know, choose to build.

712
00:41:26,012 --> 00:41:27,722
It's not that many of them, but some of them choose to use

713
00:41:27,722 --> 00:41:29,252
privacy and build privacy tools.

714
00:41:29,582 --> 00:41:31,862
I mean, one thing about the Chinese internet that's really interesting about

715
00:41:31,862 --> 00:41:35,792
the censorship and that makes it more alive is that a lot more people are used

716
00:41:35,792 --> 00:41:41,627
to VPNs, simply because you need to use the VPN to access stuff versus here in the

717
00:41:41,627 --> 00:41:45,317
west it's kind of a little bit more like you use VPNs 'cause you're kind of like.

718
00:41:46,022 --> 00:41:47,492
You know about cybersecurity?

719
00:41:47,522 --> 00:41:49,562
That's like a much smaller amount of people,

720
00:41:49,922 --> 00:41:50,372
right?

721
00:41:50,387 --> 00:41:51,587
we're not forced to use it.

722
00:41:51,587 --> 00:41:55,487
We use it to be, to be the cool two cool for schools sort of.

723
00:41:56,342 --> 00:41:56,642
yeah.

724
00:41:56,642 --> 00:41:57,332
I mean, yeah.

725
00:41:57,332 --> 00:42:00,572
Like, yeah, like, I mean, it's not necessary, but in China it's like

726
00:42:00,572 --> 00:42:03,272
if you don't have it, you there goes your access to like, everything.

727
00:42:03,302 --> 00:42:03,572
Right?

728
00:42:03,572 --> 00:42:06,182
And they have gotten more and more strict about banning things.

729
00:42:06,182 --> 00:42:08,672
Like one of the latest things is they ban LinkedIn, which I found really

730
00:42:08,672 --> 00:42:12,062
interesting 'cause I was like, I don't really know how, like it's become

731
00:42:12,062 --> 00:42:16,112
really hard to communicate with people in China, um, because they banned like

732
00:42:16,112 --> 00:42:20,882
basically all the ways of doing that other than like WeChat or like everything

733
00:42:21,167 --> 00:42:22,892
You, you mentioned sarcasm.

734
00:42:23,162 --> 00:42:26,642
I've, I've heard somewhere that there are like code words for all of this stuff.

735
00:42:26,642 --> 00:42:29,942
So I guess there's a code word for the date where you can't talk about egg

736
00:42:29,942 --> 00:42:32,127
fried rice, whatever they call that.

737
00:42:32,217 --> 00:42:35,577
And, and, uh, like code words for win of the poo, which

738
00:42:35,577 --> 00:42:37,107
you of course can't mention.

739
00:42:37,377 --> 00:42:38,187
Oh, I said that.

740
00:42:38,487 --> 00:42:38,907
Damn.

741
00:42:39,267 --> 00:42:39,537
I mean,

742
00:42:41,637 --> 00:42:42,541
we'll have to cut that out,

743
00:42:43,053 --> 00:42:46,983
That's if you all plan to go to China, which having me on the show is a

744
00:42:46,983 --> 00:42:47,403
great

745
00:42:47,883 --> 00:42:49,023
Did I say win of the poh?

746
00:42:49,173 --> 00:42:50,253
I meant Mickey Mouse.

747
00:42:50,283 --> 00:42:52,953
No, I meant, I meant something else.

748
00:42:52,953 --> 00:42:53,013
I.

749
00:42:53,808 --> 00:42:57,408
Yeah, yeah, no, there, there are like code words and there's like, you know,

750
00:42:57,408 --> 00:43:00,648
like you, you kind of like to give you a really, like, this is probably

751
00:43:00,648 --> 00:43:05,508
like the most like popular or dramatic example is they censor any variant of

752
00:43:05,508 --> 00:43:07,188
the tenement square dates June 4th.

753
00:43:07,248 --> 00:43:07,578
Right?

754
00:43:07,998 --> 00:43:09,138
So they'll censor that date.

755
00:43:09,138 --> 00:43:12,138
So people on the Chinese internet started calling it May 35th.

756
00:43:12,168 --> 00:43:15,798
And then like all these other things and there's different ways to refer to it.

757
00:43:15,798 --> 00:43:19,458
And then, you know, but sometimes some of it's gotten so ridiculous

758
00:43:19,458 --> 00:43:22,338
that like, for example, you can get arrested for like posting nothing.

759
00:43:22,938 --> 00:43:26,448
Like you can post like a black square and they're just like, oh, well on this date.

760
00:43:26,478 --> 00:43:26,748
You know?

761
00:43:26,748 --> 00:43:29,688
So it is a little, it is a little dramatic.

762
00:43:29,913 --> 00:43:32,493
But people haven't forgotten Tianmen Square.

763
00:43:32,493 --> 00:43:40,113
I, I, I, I assume like that is a, I remember that even more clearly than

764
00:43:40,113 --> 00:43:45,753
when the wall came down as like as, as a, as a moment of triumph for freedom.

765
00:43:45,753 --> 00:43:49,863
Even if it wasn't a moment of triumph, it was very, very iconic.

766
00:43:50,373 --> 00:43:51,003
Like, uh.

767
00:43:51,918 --> 00:43:54,888
So, so, so how do people see that in China now?

768
00:43:55,135 --> 00:43:59,845
Well, um, yeah, I mean, it's hard to get like a hundred percent.

769
00:43:59,905 --> 00:44:03,385
Um, so I'll, I'll, I'll tell a little bit like some of the stories that I have

770
00:44:03,385 --> 00:44:08,065
about that, um, and then we can talk about how Bitcoin actually benefits.

771
00:44:08,395 --> 00:44:09,085
But, um,

772
00:44:09,300 --> 00:44:12,800
sorry if we're not getting into Bitcoin yet, but that this is too interesting,

773
00:44:12,835 --> 00:44:14,275
we're, we're refusing to do that.

774
00:44:14,275 --> 00:44:17,245
We're, we're trying to, we're trying to last a minute, 65 without

775
00:44:17,245 --> 00:44:18,565
actually talking about Bitcoin once.

776
00:44:18,625 --> 00:44:22,571
Um, yeah, I, uh, I actually used to host, uh, clubhouse

777
00:44:22,571 --> 00:44:23,831
rooms on like tenement square.

778
00:44:24,281 --> 00:44:28,001
Um, so we actually had, uh, like, uh, someone who was there.

779
00:44:28,485 --> 00:44:34,755
talk about like his experience and, um, you know, the Tannin Square kind of, uh,

780
00:44:34,755 --> 00:44:39,375
censorship is very, very heavy and there are movements like the tannin mothers.

781
00:44:39,375 --> 00:44:43,035
So for example, the T mothers were, uh, moms who had lost

782
00:44:43,035 --> 00:44:44,715
their children during T Square.

783
00:44:45,213 --> 00:44:48,783
and they are basically placed under house arrest during the dates.

784
00:44:49,173 --> 00:44:53,253
Uh, now you've seen that, uh, the tenement square commemorations have extended,

785
00:44:53,523 --> 00:44:55,143
the bands have extended into Hong Kong.

786
00:44:55,233 --> 00:44:59,403
So as soon as the CCP takes over, like an area, you know, there used to be these

787
00:44:59,403 --> 00:45:03,693
pretty big rallies in Victoria Park, but they've started arresting the organizers

788
00:45:03,693 --> 00:45:05,883
of that every time the date rolls by.

789
00:45:05,913 --> 00:45:06,603
And so.

790
00:45:07,278 --> 00:45:07,548
Yeah.

791
00:45:07,548 --> 00:45:11,178
What I would say is like, I mean, there's been efforts in the diaspora, I think

792
00:45:11,178 --> 00:45:14,568
among the diaspora still remembered, like there are still physical commemoration.

793
00:45:14,568 --> 00:45:18,764
So if you go to any of your local Chinese consulates or embassies, during that

794
00:45:18,764 --> 00:45:23,744
date, you'll more than likely see like at least 300, 400 people, you know, kind

795
00:45:23,744 --> 00:45:25,514
of post up and they have their signs.

796
00:45:25,514 --> 00:45:28,064
And, um, that's been augmented actually recently.

797
00:45:28,064 --> 00:45:32,099
'cause one thing that's happened is, uh, I think Hong Kongers or the Hong

798
00:45:32,099 --> 00:45:35,714
Kong young people who protested, a lot of them are now in exile.

799
00:45:36,014 --> 00:45:38,504
And they've actually, this is actually quite interesting because in the

800
00:45:38,504 --> 00:45:42,194
past, what I've heard from some Hong Kong protestors is like, they

801
00:45:42,194 --> 00:45:45,254
didn't really see Tanamen Square as like part of their struggle or

802
00:45:45,254 --> 00:45:47,054
they, they, they didn't really, yeah.

803
00:45:47,054 --> 00:45:50,054
But, uh, the Hong Kong protestors now kind of see.

804
00:45:50,924 --> 00:45:51,614
That whole movement.

805
00:45:51,614 --> 00:45:53,084
And there's been a little bit of a linking of that.

806
00:45:53,084 --> 00:45:55,394
So that's injected some young energy.

807
00:45:55,604 --> 00:45:58,814
So if you go to like these physical commemorations I'm talking about, you'll

808
00:45:58,814 --> 00:46:00,314
see some young people because of that.

809
00:46:00,614 --> 00:46:04,874
But generally speaking, uh, the people who are of that tanamen

810
00:46:04,874 --> 00:46:06,344
generation are getting older.

811
00:46:06,794 --> 00:46:08,744
And there are museums that are being built.

812
00:46:08,744 --> 00:46:11,954
There's one that, uh, was built in Los Angeles.

813
00:46:12,224 --> 00:46:14,114
They actually raised funds through Coinbase.

814
00:46:14,294 --> 00:46:18,284
Um, some of the gentleman square leaders are into cryptocurrency.

815
00:46:18,284 --> 00:46:22,754
I mean, I'm trying, I tried to get them to accept donations on Lightning.

816
00:46:22,814 --> 00:46:26,204
Um, but he was like, a little bit like, uh, it's, it's cool man.

817
00:46:26,474 --> 00:46:29,624
So I tried to connect him to, to some of the, but you know, it is what it is.

818
00:46:29,624 --> 00:46:30,914
It's a slow, it's a slow burn.

819
00:46:31,274 --> 00:46:34,124
But they actually raised funds through Coinbase for their museum.

820
00:46:34,244 --> 00:46:38,384
Um, so they were certainly open to at least like crypto in general.

821
00:46:38,774 --> 00:46:39,104
Right.

822
00:46:39,134 --> 00:46:43,304
Um, and one of them in particular is actually Joe F is, uh, he was

823
00:46:43,304 --> 00:46:44,834
like number five most wanted.

824
00:46:45,749 --> 00:46:48,149
So we used to talk during the clubhouse days and stuff, and

825
00:46:48,149 --> 00:46:50,472
he's like super into crypto time.

826
00:46:50,472 --> 00:46:51,702
So there's some connections there.

827
00:46:52,032 --> 00:46:53,712
But, um, yeah.

828
00:46:53,712 --> 00:46:57,582
Uh, but they are getting older and so the older they get, I mean the

829
00:46:57,582 --> 00:47:01,272
more, um, none of the significant ones have like passed away yet.

830
00:47:01,302 --> 00:47:03,372
'cause I think they're still like in their sixties kind of.

831
00:47:03,912 --> 00:47:07,272
But you know, there, there's a feeling that the conventional democracy

832
00:47:07,272 --> 00:47:11,022
movement from mainland China, like those people have been either exiled

833
00:47:11,022 --> 00:47:14,142
for like so long at this point, it's like 30 or 40 years, right?

834
00:47:14,562 --> 00:47:17,562
That like, you know, their connection to the actual Chinese people,

835
00:47:17,562 --> 00:47:18,852
it's kind of hard to, to see.

836
00:47:19,122 --> 00:47:25,152
Um, I do think that there are certain, anybody who comes out in from the

837
00:47:25,152 --> 00:47:31,792
mainland to, China, uh, to, sorry, to like anywhere outside of China these days has

838
00:47:31,792 --> 00:47:33,772
I think a working understanding of Emin.

839
00:47:34,342 --> 00:47:36,382
And one of the things that the Chinese state has been trying to do

840
00:47:36,382 --> 00:47:39,142
is kind of like almost soft reveal it.

841
00:47:39,877 --> 00:47:42,847
Because they know, like if you're outside of the country, you can look up

842
00:47:43,267 --> 00:47:44,947
information and all this if you want to.

843
00:47:45,427 --> 00:47:51,367
And um, I've talked with some members that like, I mean, there's obviously

844
00:47:51,367 --> 00:47:54,007
stories like the one I told you where people did not know at all.

845
00:47:54,367 --> 00:47:54,727
Right.

846
00:47:54,967 --> 00:47:59,167
But among some of the people who have moved out, I think they, they are aware.

847
00:47:59,557 --> 00:48:04,017
But, one thing I will say, um, that gives me a little bit of pessimism

848
00:48:04,017 --> 00:48:08,517
is like the younger generation, China is very nationalist in ways

849
00:48:08,517 --> 00:48:13,137
that is, is hard to really grasp until you like really confront it.

850
00:48:13,137 --> 00:48:17,397
They really believe that like China is this growing power that like is

851
00:48:17,397 --> 00:48:19,167
being held down by the United States.

852
00:48:19,617 --> 00:48:25,047
Um, and, you know, um, I mean that's not a hundred percent inaccurate, but

853
00:48:25,047 --> 00:48:28,827
at the same time, like I think they, like, they take that to like an extreme

854
00:48:28,827 --> 00:48:31,797
of extreme pride and like, you know, in the nation and stuff like that.

855
00:48:31,797 --> 00:48:35,172
And I. Obviously, I'm not saying everyone is like that, but there

856
00:48:35,172 --> 00:48:37,632
are quite a few people who are very, very, very nationalist,

857
00:48:37,632 --> 00:48:38,682
especially younger generation.

858
00:48:38,682 --> 00:48:41,652
And I have the story, one of my, uh, I was talking to someone who's a

859
00:48:41,652 --> 00:48:47,292
professor China, and they were saying that when, uh, Pelosi, uh, was flying

860
00:48:47,292 --> 00:48:51,072
to Taiwan, their students were saying like, why aren't we shooting that?

861
00:48:51,522 --> 00:48:53,022
Like, why aren't we shooting her plane down?

862
00:48:53,802 --> 00:48:54,012
You know?

863
00:48:54,162 --> 00:48:55,512
It's, it is like, it's like super.

864
00:48:55,512 --> 00:48:55,782
Yeah.

865
00:48:55,782 --> 00:48:59,352
There have been like anti-Japan protests and some of you might have heard of

866
00:48:59,352 --> 00:49:02,652
like, you know, stabbings of Japanese people in China and stuff like that.

867
00:49:02,652 --> 00:49:05,562
Like there is a very like, nationalistic sentiment.

868
00:49:05,562 --> 00:49:09,912
And it is, it is quite, I think, ugly and, and in many respects.

869
00:49:09,912 --> 00:49:15,282
Um, and I think that with this younger generation, they're more inclined to,

870
00:49:15,282 --> 00:49:17,952
like, if you were to tell them about Tanamen, they'd be like, so what?

871
00:49:18,552 --> 00:49:21,732
Like, they're more inclined to be like, you know, like Yeah.

872
00:49:21,732 --> 00:49:24,642
That's just like what we had to do, like as a country to

873
00:49:24,642 --> 00:49:25,872
like be where we are right now.

874
00:49:25,947 --> 00:49:29,337
so this nationalism, I guess that's connected to the racism, which is

875
00:49:29,337 --> 00:49:32,757
also quite prevalent in China as I understand it, like especially

876
00:49:32,757 --> 00:49:33,957
against Africans and stuff.

877
00:49:33,957 --> 00:49:40,287
Do you think that's connected to like this narrative that the, the, the communist

878
00:49:40,287 --> 00:49:45,057
party has been spreading for so long that, that this is, uh, that China's better

879
00:49:45,057 --> 00:49:48,387
than everywhere else and this is the only system that works and blah, blah, blah.

880
00:49:48,387 --> 00:49:51,627
And, uh, is, is the racism a product of that?

881
00:49:51,627 --> 00:49:53,397
Or was, was that there before?

882
00:49:53,517 --> 00:49:54,447
Like what do you think?

883
00:49:55,542 --> 00:49:55,722
Yeah.

884
00:49:55,782 --> 00:49:58,812
I mean, I think there's, uh, it's an ethno-nationalism, right?

885
00:49:58,872 --> 00:50:02,352
Um, and within that there's a little bit of a conflict because China,

886
00:50:02,442 --> 00:50:03,792
uh, has a lot of ethnic groups.

887
00:50:03,882 --> 00:50:05,412
It's not just the Han Majority.

888
00:50:05,472 --> 00:50:09,222
And so that's a struggle that, you know, see in Xinjiang we see with the

889
00:50:09,342 --> 00:50:11,772
Uyghurs, see with Tibetans, right?

890
00:50:11,772 --> 00:50:15,102
And so that's like a, a big conflict in of itself.

891
00:50:15,552 --> 00:50:17,892
Uh, and one of the things, I mean, harkening back a little bit.

892
00:50:17,892 --> 00:50:20,802
You were asking me like, you know, if the party falls apart, I think

893
00:50:20,832 --> 00:50:23,802
the party's really worried about is they will have taken a lot of

894
00:50:23,802 --> 00:50:25,032
lessons from the Soviet Union.

895
00:50:25,077 --> 00:50:29,577
I think what they're trying to prevent is, uh, when the Soviet Union fractured,

896
00:50:29,577 --> 00:50:30,837
there was a lot of ethnic strife.

897
00:50:30,867 --> 00:50:31,947
Same thing with Yugoslavia.

898
00:50:32,517 --> 00:50:35,577
Like basically the different countries and groups started killing each other.

899
00:50:36,027 --> 00:50:40,437
And, um, in China that, um, you know, there are, there is enough

900
00:50:40,467 --> 00:50:44,847
ethnic diversity within, there is a kind of like hand chauvinism.

901
00:50:44,847 --> 00:50:50,337
So hand Chinese, of which I am a part, um, uh, is, uh, are the majority group.

902
00:50:50,397 --> 00:50:53,097
They, they're probably the most populous ethnic group in the world,

903
00:50:53,097 --> 00:50:56,457
I'm guessing because diaspora are the largest, uh, group.

904
00:50:56,517 --> 00:50:58,167
Uh, and they're the largest group within China.

905
00:50:58,696 --> 00:51:02,356
and so there are other ethnic groups within that, but there's kind of

906
00:51:02,356 --> 00:51:05,986
like this favoritism to the hand majority that or also plays out.

907
00:51:06,376 --> 00:51:10,276
Uh, and then there's some, especially recently, a lot

908
00:51:10,276 --> 00:51:12,376
of anti-Japanese sentiment.

909
00:51:13,096 --> 00:51:16,126
I think partially because Japan is always aligned with the states.

910
00:51:16,936 --> 00:51:22,486
Um, after World War ii, but also because of, you know, the old grievances of,

911
00:51:23,056 --> 00:51:24,166
I think some of 'em are legitimate.

912
00:51:24,166 --> 00:51:27,376
Like obviously there were Chinese, uh, Japanese war crimes committed during

913
00:51:27,376 --> 00:51:30,226
World War II against Chinese people and, and everything related to that.

914
00:51:30,616 --> 00:51:33,976
And that's being packaged into, I think at the beginning, 10 years ago, it was

915
00:51:33,976 --> 00:51:38,056
about burning Japanese cars, but now you're seeing like stabbings of Japanese

916
00:51:38,056 --> 00:51:39,796
people and things like that in China.

917
00:51:40,036 --> 00:51:42,646
So definitely, um, seems to have progressed.

918
00:51:42,646 --> 00:51:46,396
And you mentioned specifically like racism against Africans.

919
00:51:47,356 --> 00:51:53,566
I mean, I, okay, this is, do with this what you will, but I've been in

920
00:51:53,566 --> 00:51:57,196
China and I've seen Chinese people at their like most because, okay.

921
00:51:57,196 --> 00:52:03,046
One thing I will say is, um, there's a lot of like, like there's like a lot of

922
00:52:03,046 --> 00:52:06,286
white people who go to China and there are suddenly like huge experts on China.

923
00:52:06,316 --> 00:52:07,456
'cause they're like, oh, like

924
00:52:07,726 --> 00:52:07,906
con.

925
00:52:07,951 --> 00:52:08,251
Yeah.

926
00:52:08,791 --> 00:52:12,706
All the information I have is from social media, so like take it with a grain of

927
00:52:12,826 --> 00:52:13,501
No, no, no, no.

928
00:52:13,501 --> 00:52:15,841
I'm not saying you, I'm saying like specifically, there are some people

929
00:52:15,841 --> 00:52:19,051
who go and like the thing I almost want to tell them is like, Chinese

930
00:52:19,051 --> 00:52:20,791
people act differently around you.

931
00:52:20,941 --> 00:52:23,281
They think you're one of them or not one of them.

932
00:52:23,641 --> 00:52:28,651
And I've seen Chinese people at like the most like blunt, like the most

933
00:52:28,651 --> 00:52:33,091
blunt possible, like looking at the TV and being like, why are there monkeys?

934
00:52:33,241 --> 00:52:36,121
Why are there so many monkeys on, they're talking about black people, right?

935
00:52:36,151 --> 00:52:36,511
Like,

936
00:52:36,871 --> 00:52:39,661
like there, that is a very real thing.

937
00:52:40,171 --> 00:52:44,311
and yeah, I, I think that's been around for a while.

938
00:52:44,311 --> 00:52:47,431
Like one of the things that's always been really ironic to me is that a lot of

939
00:52:47,431 --> 00:52:53,191
people in China are very, uh, even though they're being taught to hate the West in

940
00:52:53,791 --> 00:52:58,861
some ways, like they've embraced a lot of Western brands and specifically like,

941
00:52:58,951 --> 00:53:03,181
they, like, I think this is also an Asian phenomenon, like whitening their skin.

942
00:53:03,961 --> 00:53:05,401
Like, it's actually very bi.

943
00:53:05,581 --> 00:53:09,601
I'm a fairly tanned individual and that has actually made me suffer in the

944
00:53:09,601 --> 00:53:10,981
Chinese community to a certain extent.

945
00:53:10,981 --> 00:53:13,231
Like people comment on that, they're like, whoa, your skin

946
00:53:13,231 --> 00:53:14,461
tone's like very, very dark.

947
00:53:15,061 --> 00:53:20,971
I'm like, you know, like, so it, it's not just, I mean I think that cultural

948
00:53:20,971 --> 00:53:24,361
part has been around, I think the Chinese state is actually trying to

949
00:53:24,391 --> 00:53:27,091
like, actually, I think the Chinese state struggles with this 'cause

950
00:53:27,091 --> 00:53:28,501
they're trying to tame it a little bit.

951
00:53:28,531 --> 00:53:31,231
Like to me it's a little bit like, you know, like.

952
00:53:31,936 --> 00:53:34,966
How Trump and the state, I'm just gonna use 'em as an example.

953
00:53:34,966 --> 00:53:37,816
Like he has some people on social that he probably doesn't

954
00:53:37,816 --> 00:53:39,076
wanna be associated with, right?

955
00:53:39,076 --> 00:53:41,086
Like they're doing so much crazy stuff.

956
00:53:41,566 --> 00:53:43,426
Um, I think the Chinese government's kind of similar.

957
00:53:43,486 --> 00:53:46,786
Like they want to perpetuate this sentiment of like, we are a

958
00:53:46,786 --> 00:53:51,286
strong nation and we have to fight against, uh, you know, the west

959
00:53:51,286 --> 00:53:53,176
and their cronies and lackeys.

960
00:53:53,536 --> 00:53:56,716
But I think some people actually the Chinese state would probably prefer

961
00:53:56,716 --> 00:54:01,396
that some young people didn't take that as far, like they've gone against, uh,

962
00:54:01,426 --> 00:54:05,356
even like Chinese mainstream authors and stuff, like Moan, who's like the

963
00:54:05,356 --> 00:54:07,006
head of the Chinese Writers Association.

964
00:54:07,546 --> 00:54:11,386
Like they've attacked these figures in the party for being like, not.

965
00:54:11,941 --> 00:54:13,201
Inflammatory enough, right?

966
00:54:13,231 --> 00:54:15,721
Like I was just talking about like students who were like talking

967
00:54:15,721 --> 00:54:19,291
about shooting down Pelosi's plane, like absolutely crazy conclusions.

968
00:54:19,531 --> 00:54:24,391
Like, you know, and it's like when you ask 'em about like China and war, it's, it's

969
00:54:24,391 --> 00:54:26,221
like a, it's like a cod game or something.

970
00:54:26,221 --> 00:54:29,281
They're like, yeah, like, like, we'll, we'll beat the Taiwanese.

971
00:54:29,281 --> 00:54:33,211
Like, we'll, you know, like we, we will just send a bunch of drones

972
00:54:33,211 --> 00:54:39,421
and, you know, it's, it is very, it's a very odd kind of thing.

973
00:54:39,421 --> 00:54:44,491
And I, I don't wanna be too loose with this comparison, but I suspect that,

974
00:54:45,031 --> 00:54:49,261
um, you know, Japan, Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany went through like similar

975
00:54:49,261 --> 00:54:53,281
transformations and outlook, like in order to prime their citizens for war.

976
00:54:53,911 --> 00:54:56,821
Um, and actually specifically Imperial Japan, I think.

977
00:54:57,265 --> 00:54:58,765
like went through a very similar thing.

978
00:54:59,005 --> 00:55:01,765
I always find it really ironic because, uh, and I've written about

979
00:55:01,765 --> 00:55:07,195
this, like in China there are so many anti-Japan propaganda films from, you

980
00:55:07,195 --> 00:55:08,995
know, like the old grievances, right?

981
00:55:08,995 --> 00:55:12,925
So, uh, one of the ones that got popular in Western studies that, I don't know if

982
00:55:12,925 --> 00:55:17,995
you guys know IP Man, the whole context was like, he was like taken prisoner

983
00:55:17,995 --> 00:55:21,685
of war by the Japanese, but he was such a good kung fu fighter or, or not

984
00:55:21,685 --> 00:55:24,025
kung fu, um, whatever that style is.

985
00:55:24,025 --> 00:55:27,025
Anyways, the, the, uh, the, the martial arts that he could like

986
00:55:27,055 --> 00:55:31,375
beat all the Japanese, even though they had rifles, you know, and that

987
00:55:31,375 --> 00:55:32,515
was, that was kind of its own thing.

988
00:55:32,515 --> 00:55:35,815
But you know, there's also all these films about, you know, and increasingly there's

989
00:55:35,815 --> 00:55:37,615
a lot of things about the Korean War.

990
00:55:37,885 --> 00:55:40,675
'cause that was the last time the Chinese fought the Americans, right?

991
00:55:40,675 --> 00:55:43,375
And so there's this idea of like, okay, well we're rallying

992
00:55:44,155 --> 00:55:47,125
people around fighting, uh, wars.

993
00:55:47,725 --> 00:55:51,745
You know, uh, I, I think it's probably pretty similar to, to

994
00:55:51,745 --> 00:55:56,215
how it, people were primed to fight wars, you know, in the past.

995
00:55:56,215 --> 00:55:59,995
And I, I've always, that's like the darkest side to me is like if

996
00:55:59,995 --> 00:56:02,665
you get into the internet, Chinese internet and some corners of it,

997
00:56:02,725 --> 00:56:05,875
and you talk with some people, and especially young, younger people,

998
00:56:06,385 --> 00:56:08,785
they have some like crazy conclusions.

999
00:56:09,025 --> 00:56:11,035
Like war is like a game to them kind of.

1000
00:56:11,035 --> 00:56:14,635
And I don't think that bodes well to have, uh, to have many

1001
00:56:14,635 --> 00:56:15,925
people thinking like that.

1002
00:56:15,925 --> 00:56:15,985
I.

1003
00:56:16,660 --> 00:56:17,560
It's nasty.

1004
00:56:17,620 --> 00:56:18,550
It's nasty as hell.

1005
00:56:18,550 --> 00:56:24,250
And now we haven't even mentioned the hypocrisy of the media corporations

1006
00:56:24,250 --> 00:56:27,940
from the West that like play into these narratives and like make them

1007
00:56:27,940 --> 00:56:33,220
even stronger by censoring stuff and making movies specifically for those

1008
00:56:33,220 --> 00:56:34,990
Chinese audience and stuff like I. Uh,

1009
00:57:40,048 --> 00:57:42,358
let's get into the Bitcoin side of stuff, shall we?

1010
00:57:42,568 --> 00:57:47,278
Like, uh, we're, we're close to the hour now, so, so yeah.

1011
00:57:47,278 --> 00:57:49,348
What are view, what are your views on Bitcoin?

1012
00:57:49,348 --> 00:57:52,168
Like what, what, where do you wanna start?

1013
00:57:52,818 --> 00:57:56,103
Well, I guess let's start with, uh, you had asked me a question initially

1014
00:57:56,133 --> 00:57:59,673
about like, you know, how you see Bitcoin playing with China, right?

1015
00:57:59,673 --> 00:58:02,223
Like in terms of that and um, yeah.

1016
00:58:02,223 --> 00:58:06,273
Um, I mean one thing is that China is a very tightly, like we

1017
00:58:06,273 --> 00:58:10,743
mentioned this like dramatic contrast between markets and party control.

1018
00:58:11,343 --> 00:58:14,133
And where I think that plays out very, very directly.

1019
00:58:14,583 --> 00:58:15,903
Uh, in many cases.

1020
00:58:16,233 --> 00:58:18,363
Uh, sorry, I'm just gonna close something right quick.

1021
00:58:18,693 --> 00:58:23,943
Um, is, uh, that, um, you know, in China you have the right

1022
00:58:23,943 --> 00:58:26,673
to earn money in many ways.

1023
00:58:26,793 --> 00:58:29,313
Like, I mean, that, that's been something that's, that's fairly new

1024
00:58:29,313 --> 00:58:33,423
as we discussed in the eighties and nineties, but, you know, within certain

1025
00:58:33,423 --> 00:58:36,213
limits, um, but quite generous limits.

1026
00:58:36,333 --> 00:58:40,323
You can make a ton, a ton of money in China, there has been a generation of

1027
00:58:40,323 --> 00:58:44,253
people that have made a, a lot, a lot of money selling, as we mentioned,

1028
00:58:44,253 --> 00:58:46,113
trash or widgets or whatever it is.

1029
00:58:46,395 --> 00:58:53,565
but once you're have that money, you are not allowed to spend it or circulate

1030
00:58:53,565 --> 00:58:58,545
it in ways the party does not want you to do so in many ways, um, it's kind

1031
00:58:58,545 --> 00:59:01,665
of like, you know, the dystopia that Bitcoiners are always talking about,

1032
00:59:01,665 --> 00:59:03,195
like China's pretty close to that.

1033
00:59:03,195 --> 00:59:06,345
Like you're basically forced to bank the domestic system.

1034
00:59:06,460 --> 00:59:09,550
CBDC is already there, like, uh, the social credit score

1035
00:59:09,550 --> 00:59:10,480
system and all of that.

1036
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:11,800
It's the C BDCs, right?

1037
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:12,900
yeah, yeah.

1038
00:59:12,900 --> 00:59:14,550
And we can talk a little bit bit more about that, but it's not

1039
00:59:14,550 --> 00:59:17,400
even just about the cbdc, like even the default system in China.

1040
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,880
It's like you, like, in order to access WeChat pay, you basically need

1041
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:22,500
a domestic banking account, right?

1042
00:59:22,500 --> 00:59:25,020
So there, and there's capital controls.

1043
00:59:25,290 --> 00:59:28,230
So if you earn a ton of money, it's very hard for you to

1044
00:59:28,230 --> 00:59:29,610
get money outside the system.

1045
00:59:29,610 --> 00:59:30,300
That's deliberate.

1046
00:59:30,300 --> 00:59:35,160
So there's a 50,000 USD per person, uh, per year limit on how much

1047
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:36,390
foreign currency you can buy.

1048
00:59:36,660 --> 00:59:40,110
And this in many ways, shapes a lot of the global economy

1049
00:59:40,110 --> 00:59:41,850
actually, uh, in weird ways.

1050
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:45,060
Like, so for example, real estate markets and tourism and,

1051
00:59:45,060 --> 00:59:46,170
and everything related to that.

1052
00:59:46,530 --> 00:59:49,440
But, um, this is a very fundamental block.

1053
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:52,800
What I'm trying to really say here is that Chinese people have the freedom to

1054
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:57,600
earn a ton of money, and they have, but they have almost, uh, they have many

1055
00:59:57,600 --> 00:59:59,130
strict restrictions placed on them.

1056
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:01,380
China at one point was the country with the most capital

1057
01:00:01,380 --> 01:00:03,000
controls in the world, right?

1058
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:05,790
And so how do they spend or circulate or invest that money?

1059
01:00:06,288 --> 01:00:10,788
and you're seeing that play out right now in China because, for example, if

1060
01:00:10,788 --> 01:00:14,748
there's a gold ETF or anything like that, like anything with positive

1061
01:00:14,748 --> 01:00:16,488
return, people are piling into that.

1062
01:00:16,488 --> 01:00:19,668
So one of my favorite questions to ask people who are, you know, in

1063
01:00:19,668 --> 01:00:23,358
mainland China, I'm just like, how are your share portfolios doing?

1064
01:00:23,358 --> 01:00:24,348
How's your real estate doing?

1065
01:00:24,918 --> 01:00:29,178
And they all gimme answers back like, I'm 30% down, I'm 60% down.

1066
01:00:29,718 --> 01:00:32,508
I'm like, wow, that's like great depression levels, right?

1067
01:00:32,868 --> 01:00:38,718
So, you know, Bitcoin as a hedge against that is a very, very strong

1068
01:00:39,708 --> 01:00:43,810
argument I think what we've seen in like kind of the quantitative stats

1069
01:00:44,110 --> 01:00:47,110
is that Chinese people are buying more and more Bitcoin despite the fact that

1070
01:00:47,110 --> 01:00:48,760
there are restrictions on exchanges.

1071
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:54,910
So there is no public trading pair between the UN and Bitcoin because, uh, as an

1072
01:00:54,910 --> 01:01:00,820
exchange you are banned from offering Bitcoin for Chinese dollar, uh, Chinese.

1073
01:01:01,750 --> 01:01:06,700
Like, and so, uh, really the trade happens through like these informal

1074
01:01:06,700 --> 01:01:10,060
OTC desks and through exchanges.

1075
01:01:10,990 --> 01:01:13,840
Some Western journalists have written about like P two P and like

1076
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:14,950
laundromats and stuff like that.

1077
01:01:14,950 --> 01:01:16,870
Like, I don't really know how much that happens.

1078
01:01:16,870 --> 01:01:20,980
Like I know there's some like old OGs that have like different social media groups.

1079
01:01:21,610 --> 01:01:27,250
Um, but most of the, uh, buying happens through basically the old

1080
01:01:27,250 --> 01:01:31,990
Chinese exchanges, wbi, uh, Binance, and like all these others, they have

1081
01:01:31,990 --> 01:01:35,680
like, uh, kind of like OTC merchants that are willing to take the risk.

1082
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:38,980
So what happens is they pay a, uh, boun, like they pay, uh,

1083
01:01:39,100 --> 01:01:42,580
escrow to be listed, like, let's just use Binance as an example.

1084
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:47,170
So Binance will have a page that just has like these merchants, the OTC merchants

1085
01:01:47,470 --> 01:01:51,550
and those OTC merchants are willing to send you, they pay a fee to get listed

1086
01:01:51,550 --> 01:01:53,380
in Binance, but they're not Binance.

1087
01:01:53,710 --> 01:01:56,770
And this is very important because if they were Binance, the Chinese government

1088
01:01:56,770 --> 01:01:58,900
will go after Binance, but instead.

1089
01:01:59,665 --> 01:02:03,235
The Chinese government will only really go after any of these OTC

1090
01:02:03,235 --> 01:02:04,675
merchants who could be like anybody.

1091
01:02:04,675 --> 01:02:05,575
I don't really know who.

1092
01:02:06,025 --> 01:02:06,445
Right?

1093
01:02:06,625 --> 01:02:09,025
And so the OTC merchants charge whatever spread.

1094
01:02:09,175 --> 01:02:12,685
Uh, the spread is a little bit higher on Bitcoin than it is on tether.

1095
01:02:13,165 --> 01:02:15,805
So what we've actually seen is a lot of Chinese people buying Tether.

1096
01:02:16,395 --> 01:02:18,598
but there are some merchants that do sell Bitcoin.

1097
01:02:19,220 --> 01:02:24,110
I think that overall though, uh, bitcoin can immediately help a

1098
01:02:24,110 --> 01:02:28,070
lot of Chinese people by just escaping that system, right?

1099
01:02:28,130 --> 01:02:29,990
Like what we described, because they're, they're getting

1100
01:02:29,990 --> 01:02:31,310
pounded in terms of return.

1101
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:34,640
Like they're making negative return, like negative nominal and negative

1102
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:39,170
real, um, and like really significant negative return because of how

1103
01:02:39,170 --> 01:02:40,520
badly the Chinese economy's doing.

1104
01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:47,120
Um, so, uh, you know, even to get out, I, I think the mental block with Chinese

1105
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:51,860
people, uh, from what I've observed is that there's very few bitcoin maxis.

1106
01:02:52,070 --> 01:02:54,170
There are some in touch with some of them.

1107
01:02:54,980 --> 01:02:57,080
The ones who are Bitcoin maxi super paced.

1108
01:02:57,410 --> 01:02:59,900
I think the big mental block is most Chinese people are still

1109
01:02:59,900 --> 01:03:01,400
thinking in terms of US dollars.

1110
01:03:03,457 --> 01:03:10,987
And also, uh, from what I heard, this is a westerner, uh, listening to too many

1111
01:03:10,987 --> 01:03:16,417
rumors, but the, the Chinese are hap, are, are happy gamblers, like really addicted.

1112
01:03:16,507 --> 01:03:20,737
There's a lot of gambling addicts and that's why shit coins, uh, are so popular.

1113
01:03:20,737 --> 01:03:22,567
Like, you like the gamble factor?

1114
01:03:22,567 --> 01:03:24,667
Like, is is, is there a truth to that?

1115
01:03:25,672 --> 01:03:28,192
Well, I mean, I play poker every Sunday at, uh, no.

1116
01:03:28,507 --> 01:03:28,747
Yeah.

1117
01:03:29,182 --> 01:03:30,922
Um, actually poker's

1118
01:03:30,922 --> 01:03:31,852
probably the least dj,

1119
01:03:32,047 --> 01:03:32,257
like

1120
01:03:33,052 --> 01:03:34,132
well, poker and ping pong.

1121
01:03:34,132 --> 01:03:34,342
Yeah.

1122
01:03:34,342 --> 01:03:37,762
Catch me at, uh, at adopting, uh, you know, adopting Bitcoin next time.

1123
01:03:37,762 --> 01:03:38,902
We'll, we'll, we'll do both.

1124
01:03:39,741 --> 01:03:40,161
no.

1125
01:03:40,161 --> 01:03:43,761
Um, yeah, so, uh, your, the rumors are correct.

1126
01:03:43,761 --> 01:03:47,211
I wish you could both understand Mandarin because they actually run these

1127
01:03:47,211 --> 01:03:48,876
like X rooms where they live stream.

1128
01:03:49,671 --> 01:03:52,731
The picks that they're making and they, they're talking about a Mandarin and it's,

1129
01:03:53,091 --> 01:03:58,581
it's so fucking hilarious because people will come in and they'll be like, uh, and

1130
01:03:58,581 --> 01:04:02,331
they like, almost like the one I was in, I was just like, this is so hilarious.

1131
01:04:02,331 --> 01:04:05,421
Like, people would come in and just be like, this is my pick of the day.

1132
01:04:05,421 --> 01:04:06,381
Like, look at this token.

1133
01:04:06,651 --> 01:04:09,141
But you know, what was so funny was they would actually come in and they would get

1134
01:04:09,141 --> 01:04:11,331
respect for what scams they were taken by.

1135
01:04:11,661 --> 01:04:14,871
Like, one guy would come in and be like, oh, I lost so much money on plus token.

1136
01:04:15,201 --> 01:04:16,821
And they're like, oh, wow, this guy's like an og.

1137
01:04:17,601 --> 01:04:19,761
Like he was losing money in like 2018.

1138
01:04:19,761 --> 01:04:20,361
Like what?

1139
01:04:20,421 --> 01:04:23,871
Like, um, yeah, there's a lot of degeneracy.

1140
01:04:24,051 --> 01:04:27,021
Um, and the, and the Tether kind of plays into that a little bit because basically

1141
01:04:27,021 --> 01:04:32,121
what happens is they, they buy like lower spreads, um, with Tether, and then

1142
01:04:32,121 --> 01:04:34,491
they use the tether to, to trade pairs.

1143
01:04:34,821 --> 01:04:38,451
And then, um, they actually go to like lower and lower exchanges.

1144
01:04:38,811 --> 01:04:41,871
'cause there's like, apparently, I, I don't really know all this

1145
01:04:41,871 --> 01:04:44,691
too much, but like, apparently there's tokens and things that even

1146
01:04:44,691 --> 01:04:47,601
Binance refuses to, or, or whatever.

1147
01:04:48,096 --> 01:04:53,046
Um, yeah, I just don't know what that line would be 'cause like, but um,

1148
01:04:53,046 --> 01:04:56,166
yeah, like people will go all the way down and there's a lot of degeneracy

1149
01:04:56,166 --> 01:04:57,756
and that is part of the problem.

1150
01:04:57,786 --> 01:05:02,616
I mean, if any of you go to Asia or any of the Asian Bitcoin conferences,

1151
01:05:02,616 --> 01:05:05,466
sad to say this, but that, that mentality does infect there.

1152
01:05:06,346 --> 01:05:10,791
So, so, uh, there's not a, uh, there's not a lot of maxes.

1153
01:05:10,971 --> 01:05:14,001
There's not a, so, so the follow up question to that, to.

1154
01:05:15,021 --> 01:05:17,751
Is there any conversation about Austrian economics?

1155
01:05:17,751 --> 01:05:22,611
Like if, if, if, uh, for instance, if, if you're allowed to earn,

1156
01:05:22,701 --> 01:05:26,871
uh, as much money as you want, but you're not allowed to use it for

1157
01:05:26,871 --> 01:05:32,331
whatever you want, I would instantly like argue that that is not money.

1158
01:05:32,331 --> 01:05:36,591
It's just a fancy gift card from your captor and your suffering

1159
01:05:36,591 --> 01:05:37,701
from Stockholm Syndrome.

1160
01:05:37,761 --> 01:05:42,411
Like, uh, are people thinking that along those lines at all?

1161
01:05:42,411 --> 01:05:46,325
Like, is, is that, is that conversation going on that, government money

1162
01:05:46,325 --> 01:05:50,435
isn't money really, like this WeChat thing is, is just a tool for control?

1163
01:05:50,435 --> 01:05:52,205
Like, uh, do people see that?

1164
01:05:52,966 --> 01:05:56,836
yeah, I mean, uh, I think one of the interesting places has been Hong Kong.

1165
01:05:57,016 --> 01:06:02,326
Um, Hong Kong was actually like a, a free port city and like had multiple

1166
01:06:02,326 --> 01:06:05,566
like, uh, so one guy I actually had an interview with was Simon Lee.

1167
01:06:05,896 --> 01:06:06,676
Really interesting guy.

1168
01:06:06,706 --> 01:06:11,026
'cause he built a, like a think tank that was dedicated to like, uh, libertarian

1169
01:06:11,026 --> 01:06:13,456
economics, like in, in, uh, Hong Kong.

1170
01:06:14,066 --> 01:06:14,416
No.

1171
01:06:14,416 --> 01:06:17,836
Hong Kong is a great example of how powerful free markets are

1172
01:06:17,836 --> 01:06:20,746
that that's like one of the most shining examples in the world.

1173
01:06:21,661 --> 01:06:21,961
Yeah.

1174
01:06:21,961 --> 01:06:25,531
And unfortunately what happened was, um, and this has happened to a

1175
01:06:25,531 --> 01:06:28,081
lot of, uh, because I used to know quite a few Bitcoiners who lived in

1176
01:06:28,081 --> 01:06:32,401
Hong Kong and they've, uh, all left unfortunately because, you know,

1177
01:06:32,401 --> 01:06:34,951
like there was a lot of benefits.

1178
01:06:34,951 --> 01:06:36,991
Of course, uh, there was 0% tax.

1179
01:06:37,081 --> 01:06:39,571
Um, and there was a lot of, uh, you know, it was a free,

1180
01:06:39,691 --> 01:06:41,101
free port as we just discussed.

1181
01:06:41,101 --> 01:06:44,641
And, uh, there was a lot of, um, you know, markets and, uh,

1182
01:06:44,641 --> 01:06:46,711
it was a good way to invest.

1183
01:06:46,711 --> 01:06:51,001
And it was a bridge between west and east, kinda like the, the C is kind

1184
01:06:51,001 --> 01:06:55,291
of like a bridge financial flows the west into the e, into China.

1185
01:06:55,820 --> 01:07:00,470
but I think the CCP realized that, uh, they couldn't maintain political

1186
01:07:00,470 --> 01:07:02,240
control over that 'cause of the protest.

1187
01:07:02,780 --> 01:07:05,870
And so they stepped in and they kind of rewrote.

1188
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:08,780
The whole governing document.

1189
01:07:09,140 --> 01:07:12,320
Um, and you implemented a national security law.

1190
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:13,820
It's very draconian.

1191
01:07:13,910 --> 01:07:16,700
And so yeah, Hong Kong has, has slowly drifted away.

1192
01:07:16,940 --> 01:07:22,250
There are, um, um, so I will say that Bitcoiners that uh, do become Bitcoiners,

1193
01:07:22,310 --> 01:07:26,150
uh, in China, I see them as like the roses that grow outta concrete.

1194
01:07:26,660 --> 01:07:26,960
Right.

1195
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:29,390
Like you have to really, uh, yeah.

1196
01:07:29,390 --> 01:07:34,460
So they tend to be like, for lack of a better word, like very based.

1197
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:35,240
Yeah.

1198
01:07:35,300 --> 01:07:38,270
'cause they, they get, because like in order to be who they are,

1199
01:07:38,270 --> 01:07:43,639
it's actually pretty dangerous to like have even that level of view.

1200
01:07:43,669 --> 01:07:44,059
Right.

1201
01:07:44,059 --> 01:07:48,529
It's like government money should, like, it's very, very anti what

1202
01:07:48,529 --> 01:07:49,849
the Chinese government thinks.

1203
01:07:50,149 --> 01:07:50,329
You know?

1204
01:07:50,329 --> 01:07:52,939
I don't know if you remember that broadcast or the Chinese government,

1205
01:07:53,149 --> 01:07:56,029
the, one of the economists, I think he was working with the

1206
01:07:56,029 --> 01:07:56,749
Chinese government or something.

1207
01:07:56,749 --> 01:08:00,199
He's just like, if we adopt Bitcoin, like literally everyone will die.

1208
01:08:00,949 --> 01:08:01,969
Like, I don't know if you see

1209
01:08:02,039 --> 01:08:03,374
Yeah, I saw that it's

1210
01:08:03,374 --> 01:08:11,534
like, uh, uh, I have never seen, uh, a more Ian, Ian if, if like, uh, uh, I've

1211
01:08:11,534 --> 01:08:15,854
never seen a person fall for the false narrative of inflation is necessary.

1212
01:08:15,854 --> 01:08:17,774
Otherwise people would die than that guy.

1213
01:08:17,834 --> 01:08:19,064
Like it was hilarious.

1214
01:08:19,662 --> 01:08:20,262
yeah, yeah.

1215
01:08:20,262 --> 01:08:23,682
And now China has, well, according to its stats, which again, going back to

1216
01:08:23,682 --> 01:08:27,715
the elephant, we don't really know, but, uh, has deflation, regardless.

1217
01:08:27,745 --> 01:08:33,865
Um, yeah, like with, uh, that, you know, if you're, it's almost like

1218
01:08:33,865 --> 01:08:38,695
the, I think it was that said it like live your life so that, like your very

1219
01:08:38,695 --> 01:08:40,495
existence is like an act of freedom.

1220
01:08:41,035 --> 01:08:43,885
Like I, I, I see that in.

1221
01:08:45,055 --> 01:08:50,550
Yeah, co che, um, uh, you know, he, uh, you know, I see that in

1222
01:08:50,550 --> 01:08:53,305
a, in, in quite a few Chinese bitcoiners or dissidents, right?

1223
01:08:53,305 --> 01:08:57,685
Like they, they are living in a context where like it is pretty dangerous to have

1224
01:08:57,685 --> 01:08:59,155
those views and to practice the things.

1225
01:08:59,305 --> 01:09:03,115
Like I actually saw, not to snitch or anything, but I saw a few people

1226
01:09:03,355 --> 01:09:07,195
using nos or zap each other who are probably Chinese, like in the mainland.

1227
01:09:07,375 --> 01:09:09,655
And I was thinking about how like, that's probably illegal,

1228
01:09:10,465 --> 01:09:13,525
Yeah, but it, but it is changing the world from the inside.

1229
01:09:13,525 --> 01:09:14,395
It's beautiful.

1230
01:09:14,395 --> 01:09:18,655
Like, uh, maybe, uh, that's the way to, to, to go.

1231
01:09:18,685 --> 01:09:23,425
Maybe that you don't have to become a Tinman Square guy with the shopping bags.

1232
01:09:23,425 --> 01:09:27,625
You can, you can be anonymous master VPN person instead,

1233
01:09:27,625 --> 01:09:29,035
and, and just live your life.

1234
01:09:29,515 --> 01:09:29,875
yeah.

1235
01:09:30,025 --> 01:09:31,585
That's what I've been trying to tell people too, is that

1236
01:09:31,585 --> 01:09:33,085
Bitcoin is a really unique thing.

1237
01:09:33,115 --> 01:09:36,775
'cause it's like, kind of like HT TPS, um, because a lot of, you

1238
01:09:36,775 --> 01:09:39,325
know, a lot of people come to my events, they're like Monero people.

1239
01:09:39,325 --> 01:09:42,085
They're always like, why is Monero not overthrowing the Chinese state?

1240
01:09:42,145 --> 01:09:42,265
Or.

1241
01:09:45,100 --> 01:09:45,940
Or buys Monero.

1242
01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:47,110
But the, the thing is, is

1243
01:09:47,110 --> 01:09:51,190
like, And the reason why is 'cause Monero has like no return profile.

1244
01:09:51,190 --> 01:09:55,120
It's like obviously branded to be, you know, but Bitcoin is like, you need

1245
01:09:55,570 --> 01:09:59,350
some Normies to be using it because then otherwise you're just like,

1246
01:09:59,350 --> 01:10:01,810
literally, like, you're just bait.

1247
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:04,840
Like, I mean, if you use Monero, you're, you're just using Monero, right?

1248
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:07,420
Like, it's like a, it's like that, uh, a narrow chat.

1249
01:10:07,660 --> 01:10:10,840
It's like that like line of phone numbers that was only sold to criminals

1250
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:12,400
and then the state took it over.

1251
01:10:13,090 --> 01:10:13,600
I'm like, well, you

1252
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:18,040
can't, you need, like, the legitimate and the legitimate use of Bitcoin is like,

1253
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:20,770
it's a store of value that is much better.

1254
01:10:20,770 --> 01:10:22,150
It's a much better money, right?

1255
01:10:22,300 --> 01:10:25,060
In different ways, uh, in a way that Monero is not.

1256
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:31,600
Um, and so I think with that, um, you know, that's what I've

1257
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:32,200
been trying to tell people.

1258
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:33,910
Like when I went to Hong Kong.

1259
01:10:34,330 --> 01:10:38,230
I had this super simplistic narrative in my head that I was gonna find people

1260
01:10:38,230 --> 01:10:42,100
who were like, I'm using Bitcoin because you know, fuck the Chinese state.

1261
01:10:42,100 --> 01:10:43,120
I'm like, blah, blah, blah.

1262
01:10:43,480 --> 01:10:46,870
But, um, they were using the US dollar for that actually.

1263
01:10:46,870 --> 01:10:48,940
So there was a lot of like Cantonese forums.

1264
01:10:48,940 --> 01:10:52,720
They were like, we want to divest from Hong Kong, we're gonna buy US dollars.

1265
01:10:52,930 --> 01:10:56,350
So again, just talking back, I think there's a mental block where it's like

1266
01:10:56,650 --> 01:10:59,980
you, it's like the allegory of the cave and you're at the bottom level of the cave

1267
01:10:59,980 --> 01:11:01,450
where you're like, digital again is good.

1268
01:11:02,530 --> 01:11:05,440
And then you go up one level and you're like, US dollar is good, and

1269
01:11:05,440 --> 01:11:06,700
then you go up like another level.

1270
01:11:06,700 --> 01:11:11,380
But a lot of very few people have made that leap to the next level.

1271
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:14,170
Uh, although one thing I will say is in China, it's hard to tell because

1272
01:11:14,530 --> 01:11:17,530
there are people who are kind of like the si like you do have a silent,

1273
01:11:18,100 --> 01:11:20,350
because people will not talk about this.

1274
01:11:20,350 --> 01:11:20,650
Right?

1275
01:11:20,650 --> 01:11:24,100
Like, they're like, even buying Bitcoin is technically kind of illegal.

1276
01:11:24,100 --> 01:11:25,810
So like they're not gonna talk about it openly.

1277
01:11:26,035 --> 01:11:26,275
Yeah.

1278
01:11:26,275 --> 01:11:26,515
Yeah.

1279
01:11:26,815 --> 01:11:30,055
This is, this is my experience with dictatorships in general.

1280
01:11:30,055 --> 01:11:32,600
Uh, like when I was on Cuba, it was the same thing.

1281
01:11:33,025 --> 01:11:35,545
Like everyone, no one said anything bad about the government.

1282
01:11:35,605 --> 01:11:36,520
Like they didn't dare to.

1283
01:11:36,885 --> 01:11:39,225
No one will say anything to it, especially to an outsider.

1284
01:11:39,315 --> 01:11:40,515
They're bad about the government.

1285
01:11:40,515 --> 01:11:42,735
'cause they're like, well, we don't know what you're gonna do with that.

1286
01:11:43,095 --> 01:11:45,765
So, um, you know, but you, you see it in the action.

1287
01:11:45,765 --> 01:11:48,915
So I actually, uh, I have an article that's going up in a, in a bit that

1288
01:11:48,915 --> 01:11:52,065
talks about it, but I interviewed the chain analysis team because they have

1289
01:11:52,065 --> 01:11:54,045
relationships with previous OTC desks.

1290
01:11:54,549 --> 01:11:58,929
not a huge fan of what they do otherwise, but they, uh, they, you

1291
01:11:58,929 --> 01:12:02,199
know, trace like the amount of OTC flows that come in through China.

1292
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:04,959
And that's just been increasing and increasing as we've discussed.

1293
01:12:05,319 --> 01:12:08,439
And so, uh, even though, you know, obviously there's not like

1294
01:12:08,559 --> 01:12:13,209
conferences in China and there's not, like, there is a two Mandarin

1295
01:12:13,209 --> 01:12:14,709
Chinese Bitcoin podcasts though.

1296
01:12:15,115 --> 01:12:18,325
Tom and Jerry discover Bitcoin and there's another one that's more technical.

1297
01:12:18,325 --> 01:12:19,075
I forget the name.

1298
01:12:19,525 --> 01:12:21,895
Um, but there are a few developers.

1299
01:12:22,570 --> 01:12:25,180
Like China, they don't actually bother developers or they haven't

1300
01:12:25,180 --> 01:12:26,200
bothered developers so far.

1301
01:12:26,230 --> 01:12:29,920
So there are some developers who live in China who, uh, work on parts of

1302
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:32,620
Bitcoin just randomly saying that.

1303
01:12:32,705 --> 01:12:32,980
But

1304
01:12:33,150 --> 01:12:33,690
Tom and Jerry.

1305
01:12:34,660 --> 01:12:37,660
yeah, so there's like Tom and Jerry Fa B2B, which means, um,

1306
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:39,100
Tom and Jerry discover Bitcoin.

1307
01:12:39,130 --> 01:12:39,581
Yeah, yeah.

1308
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:43,300
Um, so there's two kind of Mandarin language podcasts of Bitcoin, but

1309
01:12:43,300 --> 01:12:47,794
the Tom and Jerry one is based in Malaysia, or at least a host are, but

1310
01:12:47,794 --> 01:12:50,344
they mostly interview mainland Chinese people 'cause they do it in Mandarin.

1311
01:12:50,910 --> 01:12:53,940
and, uh, the other one I think is actually based in mainland China.

1312
01:12:53,940 --> 01:12:56,370
I forget what it's called, but there, there are, there are some

1313
01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:58,350
podcasts in materials on there.

1314
01:12:58,650 --> 01:13:02,190
But, um, I think the thing with that though is like, you need there

1315
01:13:02,190 --> 01:13:03,750
to be a broad enough ecosystem.

1316
01:13:04,110 --> 01:13:07,140
So, uh, with Hong Kong, I came in, I was like, okay, where's

1317
01:13:07,140 --> 01:13:09,960
the, you know, it's like, are they revolting with Bitcoin, et cetera.

1318
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:11,550
And it's not quite as simple as that.

1319
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:16,080
But what I've been telling people is like, you know, Chinese people choosing to put

1320
01:13:16,080 --> 01:13:17,970
their money outside the Chinese system.

1321
01:13:18,480 --> 01:13:19,380
Is revolution.

1322
01:13:20,190 --> 01:13:23,970
It actually is the most, it, it's not even like, you don't wake up and

1323
01:13:23,970 --> 01:13:25,710
just be like, I'm a revolutionary.

1324
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:26,790
You know what I'm saying?

1325
01:13:26,790 --> 01:13:28,740
Like, there's very few people who are like that.

1326
01:13:29,100 --> 01:13:33,600
There's maybe like, I don't know, 5% of the population that's just like,

1327
01:13:33,990 --> 01:13:35,790
I actively am trying to be a rebel.

1328
01:13:36,360 --> 01:13:36,750
You know?

1329
01:13:36,975 --> 01:13:40,830
I, I think like 95 or 90, I don't know how many percent, this is just my, maybe

1330
01:13:40,830 --> 01:13:43,980
I'm a pessimist about this, but like many people are just trying to be like,

1331
01:13:43,980 --> 01:13:45,720
I just wanna live my life day to day.

1332
01:13:45,720 --> 01:13:47,820
Like, if the government doesn't get in my way, I won't get

1333
01:13:47,820 --> 01:13:48,540
in the way of the government.

1334
01:13:48,890 --> 01:13:52,700
that's a normie like in, in any country, that's what most people do.

1335
01:13:53,180 --> 01:13:53,240
Yeah.

1336
01:13:53,330 --> 01:13:53,990
Yeah, exactly.

1337
01:13:54,050 --> 01:13:58,430
But I, I mean in, in China what's really interesting is that normies are confronted

1338
01:13:58,430 --> 01:14:01,610
with like really draconian restrictions that actually affect their lives.

1339
01:14:01,610 --> 01:14:04,850
Like we talked about the VPN example, but the Bitcoin example is a really

1340
01:14:04,850 --> 01:14:09,080
good example because if you're in China, you're not allowed to invest really any

1341
01:14:09,080 --> 01:14:10,820
significant amount money outside of China.

1342
01:14:10,970 --> 01:14:13,880
So that means you only really have access to Chinese shares, which have

1343
01:14:13,880 --> 01:14:17,840
been tanking Chinese real estate, which has been tanking Chinese government

1344
01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:22,940
bonds, which are kind of in a bubble and like a gold ETF comes and gets lifted.

1345
01:14:23,300 --> 01:14:26,240
And like they had to de-list it 'cause there was so much demand for it.

1346
01:14:26,630 --> 01:14:26,960
Right?

1347
01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:31,820
So, you know, that almost is like the, the revolution per se.

1348
01:14:31,820 --> 01:14:33,080
It's like the backdoor revolution.

1349
01:14:33,080 --> 01:14:35,330
But that is actually like, it's just the incentives.

1350
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:39,050
You're not like encouraging people to revolt or rebel.

1351
01:14:39,290 --> 01:14:42,140
You're just pointing out that like this is a tool for you to get out of the

1352
01:14:42,140 --> 01:14:45,440
system and it, it is the thing, and I point out in my book that is the thing

1353
01:14:45,440 --> 01:14:46,820
that Chinese Communist party fears most.

1354
01:14:47,405 --> 01:14:52,325
'cause their whole system is based on the state controlling market, right?

1355
01:14:52,415 --> 01:14:56,195
If the Chinese people are able to actually flow their capital outside

1356
01:14:56,195 --> 01:14:59,735
the system, that's actually the most threatening thing there that can happen.

1357
01:14:59,915 --> 01:15:01,895
And you know, in Hong Kong, the interesting thing, because people

1358
01:15:01,895 --> 01:15:03,665
ask me all the time, they're like, why is Hong Kong trying to be a

1359
01:15:03,665 --> 01:15:05,525
Web3 hub and all this other stuff?

1360
01:15:05,975 --> 01:15:09,425
And I'm like, well, it's because, yeah, I, I mean, I have my own opinions about it.

1361
01:15:09,425 --> 01:15:14,525
But, um, the reason why they're doing that is because they're losing capital inflow.

1362
01:15:15,095 --> 01:15:18,665
Like the Chinese state is losing access to foreign capital.

1363
01:15:19,175 --> 01:15:22,565
And that's become like an existential problem for them.

1364
01:15:22,565 --> 01:15:23,465
And the Chinese model.

1365
01:15:24,588 --> 01:15:25,938
that's a lot to take in here.

1366
01:15:25,938 --> 01:15:29,088
I mean, Roger, this has been super fascinating.

1367
01:15:29,148 --> 01:15:32,988
Uh, yeah, I, I, I'd love to learn more about China.

1368
01:15:33,048 --> 01:15:38,268
Uh, um, so, and, uh, we, we are going to see each other in Prague where, uh, you,

1369
01:15:38,268 --> 01:15:43,993
your book will be, probably be available from our booth actually, uh, be be.

1370
01:15:44,058 --> 01:15:48,408
Before we wrap this thing up, is there, is there anything we haven't, any subject

1371
01:15:48,408 --> 01:15:49,878
we haven't touched you wanna mention?

1372
01:15:49,878 --> 01:15:52,008
Like, uh, did we miss anything?

1373
01:15:53,248 --> 01:15:56,283
Uh, yeah, I just wanted to mention briefly that I'm working on a second

1374
01:15:56,283 --> 01:15:57,453
book, which has nothing to do with China

1375
01:15:57,678 --> 01:15:58,518
Oh, fantastic.

1376
01:15:59,718 --> 01:16:00,948
Do you have a working title?

1377
01:16:01,563 --> 01:16:02,613
it's not a good one though.

1378
01:16:02,618 --> 01:16:04,113
I'm, I'm like really bad at that.

1379
01:16:04,113 --> 01:16:07,563
So maybe, maybe you all can help me with this, but, uh, this, the working subtitle

1380
01:16:07,563 --> 01:16:13,053
is like, uh, how not to get Fucked by AI to own the Future, or How Not to Get Owned

1381
01:16:13,128 --> 01:16:13,848
Oh, yeah, yeah.

1382
01:16:13,908 --> 01:16:14,298
Yeah.

1383
01:16:14,643 --> 01:16:15,003
Yeah.

1384
01:16:15,003 --> 01:16:15,243
Yeah.

1385
01:16:15,273 --> 01:16:19,533
So I mean, generally the idea is to try to, what I, what I noticed is there's a

1386
01:16:19,533 --> 01:16:25,263
lot of anxiety about like AI or whatever, like just, is AI coming to eat us, take

1387
01:16:25,263 --> 01:16:27,423
our jobs, et cetera, take our woman.

1388
01:16:28,028 --> 01:16:28,318
Yeah.

1389
01:16:28,473 --> 01:16:28,803
I dunno.

1390
01:16:29,073 --> 01:16:34,143
Um, but um, yeah, trying to use that as an anchoring point for people to

1391
01:16:34,143 --> 01:16:40,893
understand more deeply why their choices of technologies and use so important.

1392
01:16:41,283 --> 01:16:45,453
You know, so Bitcoin nostri, uh, freedom Tech in general, encryption,

1393
01:16:45,453 --> 01:16:46,473
why these things really matter.

1394
01:16:47,068 --> 01:16:47,358
Yeah.

1395
01:16:47,363 --> 01:16:47,943
Super cool.

1396
01:16:47,973 --> 01:16:53,193
I, I mean, a lot of, like we mentioned before, uh, doom porn and black pill,

1397
01:16:53,253 --> 01:16:56,763
uh, FUD salesmen, uh, that they are loud.

1398
01:16:57,362 --> 01:16:59,612
so, uh, don't be afraid of ai.

1399
01:16:59,672 --> 01:17:02,852
Uh, real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.

1400
01:17:03,362 --> 01:17:08,192
And, uh, anywhere you want to send our listeners, uh, on the

1401
01:17:08,192 --> 01:17:11,222
internet, anything you want them to do, a call to action of some kind.

1402
01:17:11,825 --> 01:17:14,975
I mean, um, if they want like more, uh, I know we've had like a

1403
01:17:14,975 --> 01:17:16,715
really in, in-depth conversation.

1404
01:17:16,715 --> 01:17:17,675
I really appreciate it.

1405
01:17:17,705 --> 01:17:21,980
Um, if they want more the same, there's, uh, I have a website, China bitcoin

1406
01:17:21,980 --> 01:17:25,055
book.com, which just has more of like my reporting and stuff like that.

1407
01:17:25,715 --> 01:17:29,675
Um, yeah, uh, I've been trying to send people to my noster, but like that

1408
01:17:29,675 --> 01:17:32,705
has, people have been telling me my Nippo five hasn't been working as well.

1409
01:17:32,705 --> 01:17:37,805
So, I mean, I'm lowkey@nosterverify.com, but if you can't find me, just like look

1410
01:17:37,805 --> 01:17:40,235
up my name, NOST should be to find me.

1411
01:17:40,943 --> 01:17:45,863
I do have at Roger H 1991 on X, if you wanna follow me on there, but recently

1412
01:17:45,863 --> 01:17:49,703
I've just decided to, I'm only gonna post memes there and like, not like

1413
01:17:50,153 --> 01:17:51,863
I'm only gonna repost and post memes.

1414
01:17:51,863 --> 01:17:54,503
So less, yeah, I don't know.

1415
01:17:54,623 --> 01:17:56,693
It depends on what flavor of me that you want.

1416
01:17:56,693 --> 01:17:57,118
Uh, access.

1417
01:17:58,177 --> 01:17:58,477
All right.

1418
01:17:58,787 --> 01:18:00,637
Well, uh, thank you very much.

1419
01:18:01,348 --> 01:18:02,455
great conversation.

1420
01:18:02,455 --> 01:18:05,395
Great to have you, uh, wish you all the best.

1421
01:18:05,845 --> 01:18:09,505
And, uh, this has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show and nothing else.

1422
01:18:09,655 --> 01:18:10,555
Thanks for listening.

1423
01:18:11,490 --> 01:18:12,085
I appreciate it.