Roger, welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show.
thanks so much for inviting me.
I love, uh, love the show.
I've been watching some of your recent episodes, you know, saw
the episode with Francis and, uh, Madex, both Canadian Bitcoiners.
So yeah, much love and, uh, love to be on here.
Yes.
So, uh, Roger, you are a fellow Bitcoin author.
We always love having those on.
Uh, and you are also a fellow Canadian, uh, even though I'm not a Canadian,
but, uh, this is Roger's book.
Would ma hold bitcoin?
And so, uh, uh, before we get into that, I'd like to have a, a little
bit of background on you for those of our listeners who don't know who
you are or why you wrote this book.
So, so can you give us the TLDR on Roger Huang?
Yeah, yeah, no, for sure.
So I was born in China but moved, uh, fairly early to North America.
But I would go kind of like back and forth between China and uh, Canada.
And uh, it was kinda like a very unique upbringing.
Now I realize, 'cause I was kind of, uh, in between both worlds a little bit.
and so I was really plugged into kind of different communities, whether that's
diaspora communities or just, communities like within China and things like that.
so I never quite lost my, uh, Chinese roots, but then I also
really had to clate to, you know, a new culture in, in Canada and.
And, um, yeah, uh, I started getting interested in Bitcoin,
I think in like 2012 or 2013.
So, uh, some of the, I mean, you had Francis on, um, and he was
much more involved than I was on this, but they had this like old
Bitcoin embassy in, uh, Montreal.
That was like a, that was a thing.
And I realized after the fact that I actually met Adam back, um, 'cause he came
over to our, uh, there's like a coworking startup house called Notman House.
And one day I come in and there's all these people like putting
aluminum on the walls and like, who the hell are these people?
Like, there's like scanning for bugs and stuff like that.
And then, yeah, someone told me it was like the Blockstream team.
I was like, the Blockstream team, what is that?
And uh, yeah, like one of the original co-founders of Blockstream is this
guy who ran like A ISB outta Montreal.
So, you know, Montreal actually had some, I. So pretty, that's where I
grew up and Montreal had some pretty good, uh, Bitcoin kind of bonafides
and I started writing about it in 2014.
Um, that was kind of Bitcoin, uh, for me.
And, uh, yeah, I've just been looking to, I think you had mentioned something
about when you write, you know, you were writing all these books and you
were writing all these articles anyways and you decide to put them in a book.
And I feel like my progression is like very similar.
I basically, was putting together these articles because I was trying to just
understand why I was so fascinated by it, you know, and um, then it got to the point
where I was just writing about it, uh, 2018, I think I started with Forbes and
they gave me like a really broad latitude and using the Forbes name, I was able
to interview a whole bunch of people.
and yeah, and then I wrote the book, uh, would Mouth Hold Bitcoin?
I started writing that in 2022, I think, and I was doing some research for it.
I had went to Hong Kong actually during the protest and things like that,
to, to research for the book and also just to see what was happening with
the protests and things like that.
so yeah, that's the TLDR, maybe a little bit too much tl DR, but that is the TL DR
So fantastic.
Would it be appropriate to say you were ping ponging between the two countries?
Yeah, no, of course.
And uh, I'm pretty good at ping pong actually.
Uh, I hope
we can, I hope we can see this live.
But I was playing during, uh, adopting Bitcoin in El Salvador.
They had like a little, they had like the perfect setup for me.
They had a little ping pong table and they had a poker table right next to each
other, so I would switch back and forth.
Oh, fantastic.
So, uh, as, as I hold, would ma hold, like, uh, the, the obvious question
is, would, would Mao hold Bitcoin?
What?
Do you have a yes or no answer to this?
I, I'm gonna hit you with like a roundabout.
Uh, you know what's funny?
I gave Jack Dorsey a copy of the book and he was like, that was his first,
yeah, everyone's first question is like, well, wouldn't mouth hold Bitcoin?
I'm like, well, I guess that's kind of like my fault for
choosing that as a title.
Um, originally, uh, so to give you a little bit of context to back up a
little bit, um, originally the book was called One Country Two Blockchains,
which no one would've understood, no one would've understood, and also had the
word blockchain, which I actually hate.
and, uh, so the, to, to be fair to the Bitcoin magazine team,
they had a really good decision.
They were like, Hey, like, you should probably change the title.
And I was like, okay, well here's like a couple of ideas.
And they really like the wood mouth hold Bitcoin.
Um, I think in hindsight I might've actually chosen what she hold Bitcoin
'cause that's actually much more relevant.
but there is some cool things about he Mao being on the cover, which is namely
that Mao is actually on all the paper bills in the, uh, Chinese state, right?
So if you look at the un, uh, it's Mao's face, um, also, super cipher punk, at
least in my opinion, defacing Mao's, uh, face is kind of a crime in China.
Um, so my book is, I don't think aloud.
Yeah, I've had that comment several times.
Like, uh, people have been like trying to read it in the mainland.
Um, and they will not bring it across the border.
I. it's like a little bit too obvious, like the Chinese sensors.
Yeah.
It's got, well 'cause it's got 'em with the laser eyes
Yeah, I just saw the laser.
mouse face, which was kind of like a, it was kinda like a cheeky little reference.
But anyways, um, so the actual question itself would mouth hold Bitcoin?
I don't really actually address it that much in the book, but, um, thinking
through it, I mean obviously the one thing I was trying to go with, with
the title to really get across was how much China has, um, changed and still
remained the same in some ways, like how the party has, uh, always had the power.
Um, it's just replacing the figureheads, but the figureheads actually do have some
substantive differences with each other.
So unlike Mao, uh, she reigns over a China that is in position now that has some
level of markets, uh, per se, although under the complete control of the party.
Ways.
Um, and so, you know the question, would she hold Bitcoin is much more ambiguous
and would ma hold Bitcoin is a little bit more like hearkening back to the old
times where, you know, killed a lot of landlords, killed millions of people.
There was famine and everything related to that.
there's also an interesting kind of thing where I think Mao would
hold Bitcoin when he was a rebel.
People forget that he was fighting the caves for a very long time
against the nationalist government.
And one thing I do cover in the book is that part of the reason
why the nationalist government lost was because of inflation.
I have this presentation where, you know, there's this, uh, girl holding the
equivalent of 10 USD and Chinese currency at the time when the nationalists ruled.
And that 10 USD was worth, like, I think it was like three, like 444,000, the, uh,
the Chinese monetary unit at the time.
And so that helped Mao and, and one of the first things he did.
Kind of strange for a communist, or maybe not, maybe this aligns
perfectly, is he actually created the People's Bank of China.
That was actually one of the first things he did was he unified all
the, uh, regional kind of central banks into the, uh, people's
Bank of China that we know today.
And that prints currency under his kind of face.
So would Mal hold Bitcoin?
The answer I usually give is yes.
As a rebel, no, as a blood thirsty.
Yeah, that clears things up.
I, I think it also depends on when in bitcoin's, not only in Mao's personal
history, but when in Bitcoin's history, like the likelihood that he would hold
Bitcoin if he was allowed, uh, alive in the year 2100, for instance, instance, is
way higher than if he was alive in 2015.
I mean, some other people have given me some pretty interesting
answers to that, um, which shout out to people like, other than me for
thinking about this much more deeply.
Um, but yeah, like, you know, uh, I think there's this idea of like, some of
this is like she's dilemma route, right?
Like Bitcoin is like a part of, and it's this weird intersect between like
state power and also like free freedom technology right now at this point, right?
With what's happening in the states and everything like that.
So you almost have China, China's still holding some amount of
Bitcoin, by the way, from the seizures they had of, uh, plus token.
We'll get into that maybe a little bit later.
But, now you see that Bitcoin has like kind of gone into the game of global
geopolitics to a certain extent.
And so I certainly don't think Mao could have ignored Bitcoin even
now, and I nevermind Bitcoin in 2,100 at the point where like, you
know, I think a lot of current fiat currencies today may not exist, right?
And then Bitcoin still persists.
So certainly not a force to be
ignored.
No.
Uh, okay.
Uh, the, so I want you to educate me a bit about how much, how total the total
control in China actually is, because I've heard different, uh, voices,
describing China from the inside.
And one, uh, view I've heard, uh, quite a bit is that if you are small enough
of an entrepreneur, so if you're selling like, fruit on the street or something,
then the government leaves you alone.
It's, it's when you're above a certain threshold, they come and
instantly like, take over and it's state run from then on, basically.
So, so what's you, your view on that?
Can you gimme like the, the, um, uh, one-on-one on, on the Chinese economy
and how totalitarian it actually is?
Yeah, no, um, no.
Happy to.
Uh, I think first, like I have to admit, like, so I visited China and
I would go quite frequently, right?
But I've never worked for a Chinese company.
So I've always worked remotely for American or Canadian companies,
even when I was in China.
So I don't like have as much, you know, direct interface with
like government restrictions.
I've never tried to run a company in China.
I know a lot of people who do have like their stories and stuff like that.
But just something to keep in mind, uh, as I'm going into this perspective.
'cause everyone's perspective will kind of be a little bit different
because a Chinese state is very multifaceted and different people
have different experiences in general.
What I've seen is that if you are, um, there is a level, I
think this would surprise people.
There is a level of, I would say like badassery to a certain
extent among like Chinese.
People that, uh, would, you would think would be surprising?
Like, just to give you a quick example, like there's tons of different
videos of like shop owners, when the cops come in, shop owners are
like, get the fuck outta my store.
Like, what are you doing here?
So like there, it isn't as a clean of a story as like, oh my God, we
live in a totally Orwellian society.
The police has all power over everyone.
Like you can quite easily see video clips of like small shop owners, right?
Like coming, like berating cops, like telling them to leave
and like all this other stuff.
And it's like there's a little bit of like a rule breaking, like rebel spirit
among I think some entrepreneurs.
but I will say that at the upper levels or like if you're trying to
do any serious level of business, it usually has to go through the party.
and that means any number of things.
It means like, you know, dinners, uh, which are effectively kind
of, in my opinion, bribes.
Right where you are.
You know, like one of the most valuable companies in China by
market Cap still might be the same.
One is are the producers of mata, which are sort of like this, like, uh,
it's like this white, uh, uh, wine, alcohol, uh, it smells like tire gas.
It's like 88% alcohol content or something.
I don't know.
Like if y'all, one of the favorite things I've seen people do is like, Chinese
people will try to trick foreigners to think it's water and they drink like a
few, and then they're just, they're gone.
But, um, it's also kind of like an informal index for bribery or
corruption because they're kind of like the favorite gift to give.
You have these like, extravagant bottles that are worth like tens of thousands
of, um, well un and like, I guess tens of thousands of like USD or Euro if we're
thinking about it with other currencies.
so like, yeah, like when you have a successful business, you're
either, you know, part of the part, uh, you know, there's about
a hundred, about like 10% I think.
Of Chinese people are in the party itself, and you kind of have to be, uh, when
you're like at a certain tier, right?
Um, like if you're trying to run like a pretty sophisticated, like if you're
running like a mom and pop shop, honestly the restrictions on you are not
necessarily that strict as we described.
I mean, there still are, don't get me wrong.
if you do something that kind of makes people like that punches above your
weight, so like for example, I've been reading a lot about how recently,
like China has been cracking down on influence per se, like people who run
small businesses, but they might have large social media followings and,
you know, they get kicked out of their social media followings and banned
because they've been talking about topics that the Chinese state doesn't want.
Like the Chinese state kind of wants this very clean and positive internet.
And, um, what's been really funny to me is seeing how that vision is propagating into
like the quote unquote Western internet.
Like through ING and TikTok and how everything is basically just like a
short video that people that sells people stuff like that is actually kind of the
Chinese internet, but it's another topic.
But um, you know, uh, once you get to a large enough level like you're a Jack Ma
or ma or any number of like these tech titans, like you do have to work with
the Chinese state, the Chinese state will destroy you if you go against it.
We did see, you know, Jack Ma and we've seen titans like get
kidnapped from Hong Kong and come to China and things like that.
So, uh, certainly the party keeps a really strict hold, uh, not only through
kind of what I just described, which is like in order to build a business,
you probably need to have people in the party enforce kind of what you're
doing and support what you're doing and provide you with government contracts and
government financing, but also through like at the very highest levels like you,
if you accumulate enough economic power, you become a target and you can become.
Destroyed.
So that's kinda what happened with Jack Ma. That's like a famous example, right?
Like he gave a speech and he basically said, um, you know, I think that the
loan sectors for small businesses in China are totally broken.
It's actually like a fairly benign, you know, statement, you know.
and then he disappeared for like a few months, right?
And recently he seems to have been rehabilitated, like he's shown up with
meetings with she and stuff like that.
Um, this also happened actually to the founder of TikTok.
Uh, well, the founder of doin, which then acquired TikTok, who founded by dance,
he had to apologize to the party because one of the apps he created actually, uh,
had too much free-spirited discussion of politics and stuff like that.
So, and hopefully that paints like kind of an accurate picture.
I'm trying to convey that like, you know, at smaller levels it's like you, you
know, you have some Chinese base people that people don't really know about.
Um, but you know, as soon as you get some, any significant amount of power,
Chinese party state can step in.
Yeah.
So if there's one positive about totalitarianism, it is
that it's not sustainable.
And, um, socialism and communism are sort of self-defeating in a way
because the economic system doesn't allow for, for growth the same, the
same way a capitalist system would.
So having said that, like, uh, how much of China, how, how big is this
the Chinese, uh, economy really?
Like how much of a bubble is it?
Like how, how, how fragile is it?
Uh, you see these, uh, what, what do they call ever grande, uh, and, and all of that
stuff, uh, the housing bubble, it's, it seems like enormous and that it's just a
house of cards ready to go at any point.
Is that true, or, or do you think China is like a, a real superpower?
How much of it is, is, uh, is like
blowfish economics?
No, I mean, um, well, so I kind of wanna approach it there.
There's the Chinese economy is kind of like an elephant and we're all
feeling different parts of it, right?
And maybe, perhaps even the party itself does not know the whole elephant.
you know, where I kind of approached the elephant is my thesis is that
China's economic growth during the eighties and nineties was very real,
but I don't think it was because of what the party thinks it is.
The party thinks it's because, you know, they tried to underemphasize this.
But basically what happened was when Mao died, um, you know, Mao's
economic policies were like totally.
Very coordinated state court.
They, they were like very Marxist, Leninist and, uh, led to disaster, right?
Like, so for example, he told people to build pig iron in their backyards.
He, uh, told people to kill the sparrows.
And that led to famine.
And that led to, you know, like misappropriation of resources and,
you know, millions died possibly.
You know, I, I, you can make an argument that Mao killed the most
people in human history potentially.
Yeah.
so certainly the China after that is different in the sense of like,
they reluctantly embraced markets.
Um, and so one of the first things that started happening in the 1980s is you
had the beginnings of private enterprise.
So at the beginning with Mao, you could not actually start a private company
and you could not have private profit.
But, after d Xiaoping and kind of his economic advisors came in after Mao's
death, that actually became the change.
This is called the reform and opening up period, uh, which I do
cover in some of the book chapter.
and I think during that phase, to me what it was is that the Chinese people, so like
long suffering under like bad economics and things like that, they did have, I
mean, I, I want to be very clear that I think Mao was a blood thirsty tyrant.
But one thing he did do was he implemented a unified language and the education
system was like, relatively okay.
So like literacy rates were up.
He did this thing where he simplified Mandarin to this day, that's the,
the distinction that kind of persist.
And so it's kind of like, um.
You know, because the reason why I bring this up is there's a lot of interesting
debates between why India and China have grown, like at different rates.
And one reason that's been cited is 'cause India has like so many languages
in all the different places, right?
And in China there was kind of this baseline of like a, a unified language
that was kind of simplified and like you were able to easily like write it
out and type a traditional Mandarin.
Very beautiful by the way.
Um, I have a deep appreciation for it.
Like, uh, actually some of my family was like a calligrapher and if you've
ever seen like the ink and everything like that, that's like the beauty
of traditional Mandarin Chinese.
Um, but you know, simplified makes it a lot easier, removes
all these like different strokes.
It's a lot less poetic, but it's a lot easier to read and
it's a lot easier to understand.
And there was like more literacy.
And so there was that kind of, that foundation that was growing.
And then, d Xiaoping allowed private enterprise.
So you have like this like population that was growing.
There was about seven children per woman in like the 1960s.
And you know, they were all looking for opportunity.
And then oping goes and says, it's glorious to get rich.
You know, it doesn't matter if it's a black cat or a white
cat, as long as it hunts mice.
Well, um, you know, it's a good cat.
And so people started getting the groove of like, oh, we can become entrepreneurs.
And you have all these crazy stories in China.
Like you have like, you know, like everyone is the king of something,
but or the queen of something.
Like there's the trash queen and there's the paper king, the PaperClick queen.
You think like, these are very small things, right?
But China has so many people that like being the trash queen
or whatever is like a multi.
Million dollar business, multi-billion dollar business, you know, um, like
if you are producing a very small widget, but you're producing it for
1 billion people, like that is a very profitable business in of itself.
Um, so I think the eighties and nineties were really like the unleashing of
kind of like the Chinese people.
They became like entrepreneurs.
And one thing I'll say is, you know, I talk quite a bit with Chinese
entrepreneurs and they still have that like hardnosed kind of mentality.
They're building businesses and stuff like that.
And in Bitcoin, I mean, you know, we can go into it, but you see
some of the results of that, right?
Like, I mean, we all talk about how like Bitmain is a centralizing force,
but it's also kind of impressive that they like built this like business
out of like basically nothing.
And they were also like the Chinese government was like kind of against
Bitmain at the very beginning, right?
Um, so anyways, I. But there's also some links between, but we can
talk about that a little bit more.
But the point I'm trying to make here is that that part feels real.
I think, uh, ever since she has come to power, um, it's become more and
more bubble like, in my opinion.
And they kind of do this game where, uh, I've heard anecdotes where she is like,
Hey, why are there not more unicorns, uh, being built today to like a group of VCs?
And people are like, well, who should tell him?
Because he's also playing this game of like, Hey, like markets are bad.
And like, you know, real estate should be for, uh, the common person should
be for living and not for speculation.
Okay, but now ever grand is failing because it's a real estate developer and
you've suddenly made clear that like you, it can't benefit from the loan financing.
Um, and that has a lot of dramatic consequences for,
you know, the Chinese economy.
So then now what they're doing is because of the tariffs and everything
like that, she is sitting down and he's sitting down with all these
industry titans, and now they've come up with a plan to increase consumption.
So now it's like, well, let's go.
Markets are good.
And also, like everything we said about speculation, like we're gonna
reign that in a little bit, right?
Um, so that's kinda like the tension of the party today.
Um, I do think that government stats are at least at best, directionally
correct, and they censor people.
They've arrested economists who like question figures and things like that.
So, you know, again, who knows really.
I do think that growth has slowed down, and I think growth will
continue to be quite stagnant.
That the China that we see now is gonna be very different from the
China of the eighties and nineties, thousands, where, um, you know, that
was where the majority of Chinese economic growth really happened.
Um, and I think part of that is because Xi Jinping is kind of, unlike
previous leaders really trying to eat his cake right now and, and trying
to remember, like, it's almost this whole thing where there's a lot of,
uh, interesting podcast interviews with like early party figures where they're
like, we're lucky embracing markets.
And they see it as kinda like a weapon to, to consolidate the party's rule.
But it is a double-edged sword because they're fundamentally, the party
is kind of like the ideology of the party is against markets, right.
Yeah, this is so funny because like, it reminds me a lot of, of what I've read
about the Soviet Union, uh, like when, when, uh, the, the, the last days of
Stalin, for instance, when no doctor dared to tell him that something was wrong.
Because like, no one, no one is incentivized to be the bearer of bad
news in that kinda society, which incentivizes everyone to be a liar.
Same thing with a Chernobyl accident.
It's just basically a chain of people not addressing the problem because
they have no one, uh, no incentive to do so because they will be
punished like it, and it's horrible.
Like, and of course it isn't sustainable.
So in your mind, what, what would it take for China to like end like the
Soviet Union did in a way like, uh, for, for, for the ccp CP to, to just.
Disintegrate and go away.
Like is, uh, and the firewall is torn down, like, uh, with, uh, you
know, what was it, what's his name?
Uh, the guy who played on the Berlin Wall when that fell.
Yeah.
David Hasselhoff.
Davidoff played
really well.
David David Hasselhoff had a concert on the Berlin Wall with a blinking jacket.
Uh, it was glorious.
Uh, anyway, so, so is that, is that even possible within our lifetimes?
What, what do you, what do you see, like, uh, can, can Bitcoin like, can
the Chinese people start using Bitcoin and just get around all of this?
Is the, is this even possible?
Is there a second revolution coming?
Yeah.
This is like a really vast question.
Um,
I, you know, I, I, I, I wanna, I wanna start by, okay.
So I'll, I'll kind of break down a few things.
Um, so actually continue from the previous discussion.
So when we talked about like the Chinese economy being like a bubble, one thing
China does have going for it right now at this point is that it is the
manufacturing superpower of the world.
That is unquestionable.
And whether the Chinese state is going to, they also produce the most
electricity in the world, et cetera.
So whether the Chinese state is gonna use that for war or use that for, you
know, consolidated economic advantage, that's certainly something they have.
Um, and one thing I would point out, 'cause I think right now there's this
big like, tariff war and the idea is like, well we wanna bring those, uh,
manufacturing jobs back to the west.
But, um, actually China is the most advanced country in using robotics.
So really, um, if you look at the figures, the United States is vastly underusing
robotics and China's vastly overusing.
Um, so there are actually entire factories in China, they call them like one
person, you know, one person factories.
It was one person managing the whole thing.
And it produces about like one phone a second or something.
I, I, I heard somewhere that the cost of an iPhone is, is
10 bucks the production cost?
Yeah, it's, it, it's crazy how, you know, Foxconn and, and that
has come at a lot of human costs.
I don't wanna, you know, Foxconn had a lot of worker suicides and
things like that, so I, I do want to
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But, um, it, it is,
pays to the factory.
I mean, like, that's their production
I also, apple has made, I actually wrote this specifically in the book,
so I wanted to make that point.
Apple has made a deal with the devil 'cause they, uh, you know, 'cause
Foxconn and they also censor apps on behalf of, uh, the Chinese government.
A big no-no in my books.
Um, but yeah, so the Chinese economy has that advantage going for it, like,
you know, and I think if it goes to war, that will be a very unique advantage.
Example, you know, a lot of people have talked about it, like, uh,
shit building and stuff like that.
So, um, drones, drones are all manufactured in China through
DGI, uh, a lot of like, hardware and software components, uh, are
at this point are made in China.
Um, so there, that is an advantage the Chinese state has, and this gives it a
unique power and position in geopolitics.
Now, I'm gonna say two things, um, that will kind of run our perspective here.
The first is, when I'm asked this question, I always tell people like,
I, I'm kind of the same with Bitcoin.
I never, I know directionally it's gonna go up.
I never, I am way, I wouldn't qualify to specify exactly when it will
happen or what will happen when, so that is kind of like my take.
And um, I guess like China, there's been a lot of books written by people
like Jordan Chang and stuff like that where they're like, this is the year
the Chinese Communist Party fails.
Right.
And if you track it, it's like 20 12, 20 15, 20 18, 20 22.
Like it just keeps on the day, keeps on changing, right.
So I'm not one of those people.
And uh, so I'll give kind of like a bull case and a bear, a
bear case kind of for the party.
So the bull case of the party is actually, uh, I've been reading a lot about
Iran and if you think about it, Iran, the modern iteration of Iran, pretty
similar age to de Xiaoping's China.
They both kind of in the late seventies, actually, 1979, you
know, kind of emerged and Iran.
Has a lot of reasons as a state that I think make it very, very weak.
Like it doesn't have control over its own manufacturing capability.
It has multiple sanctions.
It has many enemies, many capable enemies in the region, right?
It has tried to, uh, you know, be participate in wars, uh,
across different frontiers.
It has been unsuccessful to a certain degree.
And you would think that based off of that and the treatment of, you know, Iranian
woman and all this and, and everything, that the Iranian government might fall
anytime soon, but it's still persisted.
And so there's a little bit of a, like, you know, generally I think that, um,
for your generation, sorry, I'm just, I, I know from your podcast that you're
a little bit older, um, that, uh, you know, I think that's when you all saw
like the fall of the Soviet Union.
So it was like all those dictatorships were coming down at once.
And since then, I don't think we've really seen.
Like movement in that way.
Like I haven't actually, what happened in Syria is like kind of a really
big exception to that rule, I think.
Well, there was the Congo, but no, no one covered that in the West.
Well, yeah.
I mean there's, there's been other
governments too and you know, like there's been, yeah, there's been other, like
Sudan has split into two and all this other stuff, but,
um.
Anyway.
No, but, but I still remember when the Berlin War fell, fell on Soviet Union.
Just, just didn't exist anymore from one day to the other.
It was, uh, like I, I was, uh, young at the time, of course, in my
like preteens, uh, or early teens.
And, uh, uh, it was just bizarre because we grew up in the Cold War and we're
told that this is the way things are.
And, uh, the, like Sweden, uh, uh, advertised itself as being neutral
in, in like in cheering for the west or the east because there
were a lot of social socialism.
Socialist propaganda in Sweden as well.
Uh, so, so we were sort of taught that this is the way things are
and we'll just have to wait and see which system, uh, becomes the,
the dominant one in the world.
And then all of a sudden, one of the powers just disappeared.
And it turns out it was way worse than ever anyone had that very
imagined, especially a journalist.
Yeah, no, I, and I mean, like, I, I just think that we live in a different
era now where if you have expectations like that from before, like you saw
the fall of so many different communist dictatorships and then, uh, you know,
you live in our era where, you know, change of government is very gradual.
So I, you know, China is so much stronger than Iran.
So, you know, I, I, I see there being some natural inertia or like, we
used to think that time was on our side in the sense of like liberty
and democracy and freedom, right?
Like the idea was China would embrace capitalism to a certain degree and
markets and therefore its, people would inevitably kind of, you know, uh, revolt.
And I almost turn that around now.
It's like the inertia of state control has actually helped participate that.
But now having said that, and all that bloom and doomy, I will say
one thing, um, China is the epitome of, uh, gradually then suddenly.
Um, and so this is actually also what makes really
difficult to predictable happen.
Um, because for example, you know, one of the, one of the things I I criticize Marx
the most for, um, Marx is quite racist.
Um, I think people forget that, but um, he actually, um, I'm, I'm
fine with having that highlighted in a short or something, but,
was very, very racist.
anti-Semitic as well, which is very ironic.
Um, and um, so he, uh, you know, one of the things was he called
China, like an ossified society that would like never change.
And, um, ironically generation after China produced the most
explosive change and it happened in the, like span of a few months.
and basically there was all, the dynastic rule came to an end in 1911
in the first revolution that be, that, uh, made China into a republic.
And it was so fast that Sonen, who actually led the, some considered
to be the father of the Republic of China, like he was teaching in Japan
in exile or something, had to like rush him back to, to like lead the, uh,
lead the troops and stuff like that.
Um, so, you know, that's one thing I would say, like, don't underestimate
the Chinese people's potential for change and explosive change.
Um, you know, China probably oversaw the most something that
no one predicted, you know?
Um, you know, very few people predicted, you know, when Marx was calling the
typing revolution like backwards and all this other stuff, like, well,
within 50 years, like the Chinese people in the span of a few months
were able to get rid of thousands of years of imperial rule and in a, in a
fairly peaceful revolution actually.
I mean, there was blood and, and everything like that.
There were warlords, but it was.
Like a, a pretty, um, impressive feat.
Yeah, this is, this is very positive because like, I think people
underestimate how damn big this thing is.
Like, uh, what, what is like 1.4 billion people is the official number, right?
Uh, I guess that that number comes from the government, so
it might be slightly inflated.
But if it's true, that means there, there are 144 Chinese people per swed and
like probably 200 per fin in the world.
Uh, which makes it so vast.
It's so big.
And that must mean like if you have a normal bell curve distribution of
brains, you have, uh, 144 times more geniuses in China than in Sweden.
So, so the, and this is, uh, from, just from statistics and, and even if,
uh, China's internet is very shielded from the rest of the world, it's
still one and a half billion people.
That's, that's huge.
It's like, so, so if, and even with somewhat suppressed and, and censored
free freedom of speech there, like if these people just talk to one another
long enough, they will start to break free from, from, uh, their shackles.
There, there, there's like, uh.
I, I, I, I happen to be an optimist.
Uh, and I think these powers are just as, as, uh, they're, they're rarely mentioned,
especially by these doom porn, black pill, uh, salesman, FUD salesman as I call them,
uh, which are popular on the internet too.
But the, the internet is first and foremost a force for good because it
makes people talk and makes people have conversations like, like this one.
And, uh, these, this stuff like this must happen all over China
all the time, regardless of what the, the government thinks of it.
Right.
Uh, am I right about that or What
What do you
Yeah.
Well, you, you also asked before like how, and we'll, we'll
finally get to Bitcoin at minute.
you know, I have a lot of hope because I've navigated Chinese internet.
Um, and there are a lot of different pockets that gimme a lot of hope.
First, there are, uh, some cipher punks in China, which
is really, really cool to see.
Um, and there are also Bitcoin only Cipher punks cool to see.
Um, so people who are embracing encryption and who are actually
building tools to help.
Defray against the state's power.
So that certainly exists.
Uh, I have, I've written about it a few times, but there's a few
Chinese people who post on Nostri.
There's like kind of like a boost at a certain period of time.
Like some of 'em have kind of tailed off, but people still post, uh, stuff
on Nostri and there's a lot of Bitcoin technical resources and things like
that that get translated into Mandarin.
So that's very much alive.
and one thing before I get into the specifics of Bitcoin, um,
I kind of wanna share like a couple stories that give me hope.
Like one is, um, you know, I was talking to someone who they were telling me like,
Hey, like, you know, ever since I've actually learned more about Bitcoin,
not only have I decided like maybe the digital yen is like a terrible idea,
but also I've deleted my WeChat pay and my Alipay because I see them as like
parts of like, you know, state control.
And, um, you see these stories where I. You know, I had another story I
had, this is less Bitcoin related, but, um, I went to a Tannin Square
event where there were, uh, a lot of the tannin square leaders at the time.
and, uh, you know, this one woman who was a student, uh, who was attending Harvard.
Uh, at the time, you know, they came up, and actually went to the
panel speakers and they were like, oh, I had no idea this happened.
And this makes me rethink like what happened with the government and this
makes me rethink my perception of the government and everything like that.
So there's certainly these stories that are like cracks in the veil.
And, uh, what I would say about the Chinese internet is actually
that it's very alive and dynamic.
I know that.
And we can talk about the specifics of like how censorship
happens and things like that.
And don't get me wrong, people get arrested for saying things and
sometimes it's like really ridiculous.
Like you, you've had people get arrested for like tweeting glory to
Hong Kong for like 150 people, right?
Like that, you know, it's like, like I I, in talking with a few friends
about it, what we find kind of scary about the Chinese security state,
it's like a little bit random.
They almost like chaos monkey.
It's almost the opposite of what I described to you of like, if you're
small enough, they don't, they leave you alone if you're a physical business.
But if you're online and you're talking shop and they're like, you can be
really small and they will go after you.
So that's kind of a little bit weird to me.
Whereas I think like other governments are a little bit more like, oh, well
let's wait until this person has like more influence and reach or whatever.
Like the Chinese state has gone after really small people to
like make examples, I think.
but having said that, even though there are a lot of dramatic consequences
and maybe because there are dramatic consequences, the Chinese Internet's
like very alive and very sarcastic and very ironic and you know, like I, uh, and
you see people who are like subverting the party like all the time on there.
Different things.
Like, so for example, like, um, I'll give you an example.
Like there's uh, a sensitive date.
So Mao's uh, eldest son died supposedly 'cause he was cooking like egg fried rice.
Like, and then the Americans bombed the site.
They found it.
I mean, who knows which story is true or not true, but there's a,
there is a date where you're not supposed to talk about egg fried rice.
and then everybody just talks about egg fried rice.
So it's like, you know, like there's a lot of that kind of level of, of stuff.
So the Chinese internet's like a lot more alive than people realize.
Like Chinese people are not like, to your earlier point, you like, I mean just
based off the distribution of people.
Like Chinese people aren't dumb.
Like there are a lot of really smart Chinese people.
And yeah, they have consequences attached to their online identities
and actions, but some of them, you know, choose to build.
It's not that many of them, but some of them choose to use
privacy and build privacy tools.
I mean, one thing about the Chinese internet that's really interesting about
the censorship and that makes it more alive is that a lot more people are used
to VPNs, simply because you need to use the VPN to access stuff versus here in the
west it's kind of a little bit more like you use VPNs 'cause you're kind of like.
You know about cybersecurity?
That's like a much smaller amount of people,
right?
we're not forced to use it.
We use it to be, to be the cool two cool for schools sort of.
yeah.
I mean, yeah.
Like, yeah, like, I mean, it's not necessary, but in China it's like
if you don't have it, you there goes your access to like, everything.
Right?
And they have gotten more and more strict about banning things.
Like one of the latest things is they ban LinkedIn, which I found really
interesting 'cause I was like, I don't really know how, like it's become
really hard to communicate with people in China, um, because they banned like
basically all the ways of doing that other than like WeChat or like everything
You, you mentioned sarcasm.
I've, I've heard somewhere that there are like code words for all of this stuff.
So I guess there's a code word for the date where you can't talk about egg
fried rice, whatever they call that.
And, and, uh, like code words for win of the poo, which
you of course can't mention.
Oh, I said that.
Damn.
I mean,
we'll have to cut that out,
That's if you all plan to go to China, which having me on the show is a
great
Did I say win of the poh?
I meant Mickey Mouse.
No, I meant, I meant something else.
I.
Yeah, yeah, no, there, there are like code words and there's like, you know,
like you, you kind of like to give you a really, like, this is probably
like the most like popular or dramatic example is they censor any variant of
the tenement square dates June 4th.
Right?
So they'll censor that date.
So people on the Chinese internet started calling it May 35th.
And then like all these other things and there's different ways to refer to it.
And then, you know, but sometimes some of it's gotten so ridiculous
that like, for example, you can get arrested for like posting nothing.
Like you can post like a black square and they're just like, oh, well on this date.
You know?
So it is a little, it is a little dramatic.
But people haven't forgotten Tianmen Square.
I, I, I, I assume like that is a, I remember that even more clearly than
when the wall came down as like as, as a, as a moment of triumph for freedom.
Even if it wasn't a moment of triumph, it was very, very iconic.
Like, uh.
So, so, so how do people see that in China now?
Well, um, yeah, I mean, it's hard to get like a hundred percent.
Um, so I'll, I'll, I'll tell a little bit like some of the stories that I have
about that, um, and then we can talk about how Bitcoin actually benefits.
But, um,
sorry if we're not getting into Bitcoin yet, but that this is too interesting,
we're, we're refusing to do that.
We're, we're trying to, we're trying to last a minute, 65 without
actually talking about Bitcoin once.
Um, yeah, I, uh, I actually used to host, uh, clubhouse
rooms on like tenement square.
Um, so we actually had, uh, like, uh, someone who was there.
talk about like his experience and, um, you know, the Tannin Square kind of, uh,
censorship is very, very heavy and there are movements like the tannin mothers.
So for example, the T mothers were, uh, moms who had lost
their children during T Square.
and they are basically placed under house arrest during the dates.
Uh, now you've seen that, uh, the tenement square commemorations have extended,
the bands have extended into Hong Kong.
So as soon as the CCP takes over, like an area, you know, there used to be these
pretty big rallies in Victoria Park, but they've started arresting the organizers
of that every time the date rolls by.
And so.
Yeah.
What I would say is like, I mean, there's been efforts in the diaspora, I think
among the diaspora still remembered, like there are still physical commemoration.
So if you go to any of your local Chinese consulates or embassies, during that
date, you'll more than likely see like at least 300, 400 people, you know, kind
of post up and they have their signs.
And, um, that's been augmented actually recently.
'cause one thing that's happened is, uh, I think Hong Kongers or the Hong
Kong young people who protested, a lot of them are now in exile.
And they've actually, this is actually quite interesting because in the
past, what I've heard from some Hong Kong protestors is like, they
didn't really see Tanamen Square as like part of their struggle or
they, they, they didn't really, yeah.
But, uh, the Hong Kong protestors now kind of see.
That whole movement.
And there's been a little bit of a linking of that.
So that's injected some young energy.
So if you go to like these physical commemorations I'm talking about, you'll
see some young people because of that.
But generally speaking, uh, the people who are of that tanamen
generation are getting older.
And there are museums that are being built.
There's one that, uh, was built in Los Angeles.
They actually raised funds through Coinbase.
Um, some of the gentleman square leaders are into cryptocurrency.
I mean, I'm trying, I tried to get them to accept donations on Lightning.
Um, but he was like, a little bit like, uh, it's, it's cool man.
So I tried to connect him to, to some of the, but you know, it is what it is.
It's a slow, it's a slow burn.
But they actually raised funds through Coinbase for their museum.
Um, so they were certainly open to at least like crypto in general.
Right.
Um, and one of them in particular is actually Joe F is, uh, he was
like number five most wanted.
So we used to talk during the clubhouse days and stuff, and
he's like super into crypto time.
So there's some connections there.
But, um, yeah.
Uh, but they are getting older and so the older they get, I mean the
more, um, none of the significant ones have like passed away yet.
'cause I think they're still like in their sixties kind of.
But you know, there, there's a feeling that the conventional democracy
movement from mainland China, like those people have been either exiled
for like so long at this point, it's like 30 or 40 years, right?
That like, you know, their connection to the actual Chinese people,
it's kind of hard to, to see.
Um, I do think that there are certain, anybody who comes out in from the
mainland to, China, uh, to, sorry, to like anywhere outside of China these days has
I think a working understanding of Emin.
And one of the things that the Chinese state has been trying to do
is kind of like almost soft reveal it.
Because they know, like if you're outside of the country, you can look up
information and all this if you want to.
And um, I've talked with some members that like, I mean, there's obviously
stories like the one I told you where people did not know at all.
Right.
But among some of the people who have moved out, I think they, they are aware.
But, one thing I will say, um, that gives me a little bit of pessimism
is like the younger generation, China is very nationalist in ways
that is, is hard to really grasp until you like really confront it.
They really believe that like China is this growing power that like is
being held down by the United States.
Um, and, you know, um, I mean that's not a hundred percent inaccurate, but
at the same time, like I think they, like, they take that to like an extreme
of extreme pride and like, you know, in the nation and stuff like that.
And I. Obviously, I'm not saying everyone is like that, but there
are quite a few people who are very, very, very nationalist,
especially younger generation.
And I have the story, one of my, uh, I was talking to someone who's a
professor China, and they were saying that when, uh, Pelosi, uh, was flying
to Taiwan, their students were saying like, why aren't we shooting that?
Like, why aren't we shooting her plane down?
You know?
It's, it is like, it's like super.
Yeah.
There have been like anti-Japan protests and some of you might have heard of
like, you know, stabbings of Japanese people in China and stuff like that.
Like there is a very like, nationalistic sentiment.
And it is, it is quite, I think, ugly and, and in many respects.
Um, and I think that with this younger generation, they're more inclined to,
like, if you were to tell them about Tanamen, they'd be like, so what?
Like, they're more inclined to be like, you know, like Yeah.
That's just like what we had to do, like as a country to
like be where we are right now.
so this nationalism, I guess that's connected to the racism, which is
also quite prevalent in China as I understand it, like especially
against Africans and stuff.
Do you think that's connected to like this narrative that the, the, the communist
party has been spreading for so long that, that this is, uh, that China's better
than everywhere else and this is the only system that works and blah, blah, blah.
And, uh, is, is the racism a product of that?
Or was, was that there before?
Like what do you think?
Yeah.
I mean, I think there's, uh, it's an ethno-nationalism, right?
Um, and within that there's a little bit of a conflict because China,
uh, has a lot of ethnic groups.
It's not just the Han Majority.
And so that's a struggle that, you know, see in Xinjiang we see with the
Uyghurs, see with Tibetans, right?
And so that's like a, a big conflict in of itself.
Uh, and one of the things, I mean, harkening back a little bit.
You were asking me like, you know, if the party falls apart, I think
the party's really worried about is they will have taken a lot of
lessons from the Soviet Union.
I think what they're trying to prevent is, uh, when the Soviet Union fractured,
there was a lot of ethnic strife.
Same thing with Yugoslavia.
Like basically the different countries and groups started killing each other.
And, um, in China that, um, you know, there are, there is enough
ethnic diversity within, there is a kind of like hand chauvinism.
So hand Chinese, of which I am a part, um, uh, is, uh, are the majority group.
They, they're probably the most populous ethnic group in the world,
I'm guessing because diaspora are the largest, uh, group.
Uh, and they're the largest group within China.
and so there are other ethnic groups within that, but there's kind of
like this favoritism to the hand majority that or also plays out.
Uh, and then there's some, especially recently, a lot
of anti-Japanese sentiment.
I think partially because Japan is always aligned with the states.
Um, after World War ii, but also because of, you know, the old grievances of,
I think some of 'em are legitimate.
Like obviously there were Chinese, uh, Japanese war crimes committed during
World War II against Chinese people and, and everything related to that.
And that's being packaged into, I think at the beginning, 10 years ago, it was
about burning Japanese cars, but now you're seeing like stabbings of Japanese
people and things like that in China.
So definitely, um, seems to have progressed.
And you mentioned specifically like racism against Africans.
I mean, I, okay, this is, do with this what you will, but I've been in
China and I've seen Chinese people at their like most because, okay.
One thing I will say is, um, there's a lot of like, like there's like a lot of
white people who go to China and there are suddenly like huge experts on China.
'cause they're like, oh, like
con.
Yeah.
All the information I have is from social media, so like take it with a grain of
No, no, no, no.
I'm not saying you, I'm saying like specifically, there are some people
who go and like the thing I almost want to tell them is like, Chinese
people act differently around you.
They think you're one of them or not one of them.
And I've seen Chinese people at like the most like blunt, like the most
blunt possible, like looking at the TV and being like, why are there monkeys?
Why are there so many monkeys on, they're talking about black people, right?
Like,
like there, that is a very real thing.
and yeah, I, I think that's been around for a while.
Like one of the things that's always been really ironic to me is that a lot of
people in China are very, uh, even though they're being taught to hate the West in
some ways, like they've embraced a lot of Western brands and specifically like,
they, like, I think this is also an Asian phenomenon, like whitening their skin.
Like, it's actually very bi.
I'm a fairly tanned individual and that has actually made me suffer in the
Chinese community to a certain extent.
Like people comment on that, they're like, whoa, your skin
tone's like very, very dark.
I'm like, you know, like, so it, it's not just, I mean I think that cultural
part has been around, I think the Chinese state is actually trying to
like, actually, I think the Chinese state struggles with this 'cause
they're trying to tame it a little bit.
Like to me it's a little bit like, you know, like.
How Trump and the state, I'm just gonna use 'em as an example.
Like he has some people on social that he probably doesn't
wanna be associated with, right?
Like they're doing so much crazy stuff.
Um, I think the Chinese government's kind of similar.
Like they want to perpetuate this sentiment of like, we are a
strong nation and we have to fight against, uh, you know, the west
and their cronies and lackeys.
But I think some people actually the Chinese state would probably prefer
that some young people didn't take that as far, like they've gone against, uh,
even like Chinese mainstream authors and stuff, like Moan, who's like the
head of the Chinese Writers Association.
Like they've attacked these figures in the party for being like, not.
Inflammatory enough, right?
Like I was just talking about like students who were like talking
about shooting down Pelosi's plane, like absolutely crazy conclusions.
Like, you know, and it's like when you ask 'em about like China and war, it's, it's
like a, it's like a cod game or something.
They're like, yeah, like, like, we'll, we'll beat the Taiwanese.
Like, we'll, you know, like we, we will just send a bunch of drones
and, you know, it's, it is very, it's a very odd kind of thing.
And I, I don't wanna be too loose with this comparison, but I suspect that,
um, you know, Japan, Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany went through like similar
transformations and outlook, like in order to prime their citizens for war.
Um, and actually specifically Imperial Japan, I think.
like went through a very similar thing.
I always find it really ironic because, uh, and I've written about
this, like in China there are so many anti-Japan propaganda films from, you
know, like the old grievances, right?
So, uh, one of the ones that got popular in Western studies that, I don't know if
you guys know IP Man, the whole context was like, he was like taken prisoner
of war by the Japanese, but he was such a good kung fu fighter or, or not
kung fu, um, whatever that style is.
Anyways, the, the, uh, the, the martial arts that he could like
beat all the Japanese, even though they had rifles, you know, and that
was, that was kind of its own thing.
But you know, there's also all these films about, you know, and increasingly there's
a lot of things about the Korean War.
'cause that was the last time the Chinese fought the Americans, right?
And so there's this idea of like, okay, well we're rallying
people around fighting, uh, wars.
You know, uh, I, I think it's probably pretty similar to, to
how it, people were primed to fight wars, you know, in the past.
And I, I've always, that's like the darkest side to me is like if
you get into the internet, Chinese internet and some corners of it,
and you talk with some people, and especially young, younger people,
they have some like crazy conclusions.
Like war is like a game to them kind of.
And I don't think that bodes well to have, uh, to have many
people thinking like that.
I.
It's nasty.
It's nasty as hell.
And now we haven't even mentioned the hypocrisy of the media corporations
from the West that like play into these narratives and like make them
even stronger by censoring stuff and making movies specifically for those
Chinese audience and stuff like I. Uh,
let's get into the Bitcoin side of stuff, shall we?
Like, uh, we're, we're close to the hour now, so, so yeah.
What are view, what are your views on Bitcoin?
Like what, what, where do you wanna start?
Well, I guess let's start with, uh, you had asked me a question initially
about like, you know, how you see Bitcoin playing with China, right?
Like in terms of that and um, yeah.
Um, I mean one thing is that China is a very tightly, like we
mentioned this like dramatic contrast between markets and party control.
And where I think that plays out very, very directly.
Uh, in many cases.
Uh, sorry, I'm just gonna close something right quick.
Um, is, uh, that, um, you know, in China you have the right
to earn money in many ways.
Like, I mean, that, that's been something that's, that's fairly new
as we discussed in the eighties and nineties, but, you know, within certain
limits, um, but quite generous limits.
You can make a ton, a ton of money in China, there has been a generation of
people that have made a, a lot, a lot of money selling, as we mentioned,
trash or widgets or whatever it is.
but once you're have that money, you are not allowed to spend it or circulate
it in ways the party does not want you to do so in many ways, um, it's kind
of like, you know, the dystopia that Bitcoiners are always talking about,
like China's pretty close to that.
Like you're basically forced to bank the domestic system.
CBDC is already there, like, uh, the social credit score
system and all of that.
It's the C BDCs, right?
yeah, yeah.
And we can talk a little bit bit more about that, but it's not
even just about the cbdc, like even the default system in China.
It's like you, like, in order to access WeChat pay, you basically need
a domestic banking account, right?
So there, and there's capital controls.
So if you earn a ton of money, it's very hard for you to
get money outside the system.
That's deliberate.
So there's a 50,000 USD per person, uh, per year limit on how much
foreign currency you can buy.
And this in many ways, shapes a lot of the global economy
actually, uh, in weird ways.
Like, so for example, real estate markets and tourism and,
and everything related to that.
But, um, this is a very fundamental block.
What I'm trying to really say here is that Chinese people have the freedom to
earn a ton of money, and they have, but they have almost, uh, they have many
strict restrictions placed on them.
China at one point was the country with the most capital
controls in the world, right?
And so how do they spend or circulate or invest that money?
and you're seeing that play out right now in China because, for example, if
there's a gold ETF or anything like that, like anything with positive
return, people are piling into that.
So one of my favorite questions to ask people who are, you know, in
mainland China, I'm just like, how are your share portfolios doing?
How's your real estate doing?
And they all gimme answers back like, I'm 30% down, I'm 60% down.
I'm like, wow, that's like great depression levels, right?
So, you know, Bitcoin as a hedge against that is a very, very strong
argument I think what we've seen in like kind of the quantitative stats
is that Chinese people are buying more and more Bitcoin despite the fact that
there are restrictions on exchanges.
So there is no public trading pair between the UN and Bitcoin because, uh, as an
exchange you are banned from offering Bitcoin for Chinese dollar, uh, Chinese.
Like, and so, uh, really the trade happens through like these informal
OTC desks and through exchanges.
Some Western journalists have written about like P two P and like
laundromats and stuff like that.
Like, I don't really know how much that happens.
Like I know there's some like old OGs that have like different social media groups.
Um, but most of the, uh, buying happens through basically the old
Chinese exchanges, wbi, uh, Binance, and like all these others, they have
like, uh, kind of like OTC merchants that are willing to take the risk.
So what happens is they pay a, uh, boun, like they pay, uh,
escrow to be listed, like, let's just use Binance as an example.
So Binance will have a page that just has like these merchants, the OTC merchants
and those OTC merchants are willing to send you, they pay a fee to get listed
in Binance, but they're not Binance.
And this is very important because if they were Binance, the Chinese government
will go after Binance, but instead.
The Chinese government will only really go after any of these OTC
merchants who could be like anybody.
I don't really know who.
Right?
And so the OTC merchants charge whatever spread.
Uh, the spread is a little bit higher on Bitcoin than it is on tether.
So what we've actually seen is a lot of Chinese people buying Tether.
but there are some merchants that do sell Bitcoin.
I think that overall though, uh, bitcoin can immediately help a
lot of Chinese people by just escaping that system, right?
Like what we described, because they're, they're getting
pounded in terms of return.
Like they're making negative return, like negative nominal and negative
real, um, and like really significant negative return because of how
badly the Chinese economy's doing.
Um, so, uh, you know, even to get out, I, I think the mental block with Chinese
people, uh, from what I've observed is that there's very few bitcoin maxis.
There are some in touch with some of them.
The ones who are Bitcoin maxi super paced.
I think the big mental block is most Chinese people are still
thinking in terms of US dollars.
And also, uh, from what I heard, this is a westerner, uh, listening to too many
rumors, but the, the Chinese are hap, are, are happy gamblers, like really addicted.
There's a lot of gambling addicts and that's why shit coins, uh, are so popular.
Like, you like the gamble factor?
Like, is is, is there a truth to that?
Well, I mean, I play poker every Sunday at, uh, no.
Yeah.
Um, actually poker's
probably the least dj,
like
well, poker and ping pong.
Yeah.
Catch me at, uh, at adopting, uh, you know, adopting Bitcoin next time.
We'll, we'll, we'll do both.
no.
Um, yeah, so, uh, your, the rumors are correct.
I wish you could both understand Mandarin because they actually run these
like X rooms where they live stream.
The picks that they're making and they, they're talking about a Mandarin and it's,
it's so fucking hilarious because people will come in and they'll be like, uh, and
they like, almost like the one I was in, I was just like, this is so hilarious.
Like, people would come in and just be like, this is my pick of the day.
Like, look at this token.
But you know, what was so funny was they would actually come in and they would get
respect for what scams they were taken by.
Like, one guy would come in and be like, oh, I lost so much money on plus token.
And they're like, oh, wow, this guy's like an og.
Like he was losing money in like 2018.
Like what?
Like, um, yeah, there's a lot of degeneracy.
Um, and the, and the Tether kind of plays into that a little bit because basically
what happens is they, they buy like lower spreads, um, with Tether, and then
they use the tether to, to trade pairs.
And then, um, they actually go to like lower and lower exchanges.
'cause there's like, apparently, I, I don't really know all this
too much, but like, apparently there's tokens and things that even
Binance refuses to, or, or whatever.
Um, yeah, I just don't know what that line would be 'cause like, but um,
yeah, like people will go all the way down and there's a lot of degeneracy
and that is part of the problem.
I mean, if any of you go to Asia or any of the Asian Bitcoin conferences,
sad to say this, but that, that mentality does infect there.
So, so, uh, there's not a, uh, there's not a lot of maxes.
There's not a, so, so the follow up question to that, to.
Is there any conversation about Austrian economics?
Like if, if, if, uh, for instance, if, if you're allowed to earn,
uh, as much money as you want, but you're not allowed to use it for
whatever you want, I would instantly like argue that that is not money.
It's just a fancy gift card from your captor and your suffering
from Stockholm Syndrome.
Like, uh, are people thinking that along those lines at all?
Like, is, is that, is that conversation going on that, government money
isn't money really, like this WeChat thing is, is just a tool for control?
Like, uh, do people see that?
yeah, I mean, uh, I think one of the interesting places has been Hong Kong.
Um, Hong Kong was actually like a, a free port city and like had multiple
like, uh, so one guy I actually had an interview with was Simon Lee.
Really interesting guy.
'cause he built a, like a think tank that was dedicated to like, uh, libertarian
economics, like in, in, uh, Hong Kong.
No.
Hong Kong is a great example of how powerful free markets are
that that's like one of the most shining examples in the world.
Yeah.
And unfortunately what happened was, um, and this has happened to a
lot of, uh, because I used to know quite a few Bitcoiners who lived in
Hong Kong and they've, uh, all left unfortunately because, you know,
like there was a lot of benefits.
Of course, uh, there was 0% tax.
Um, and there was a lot of, uh, you know, it was a free,
free port as we just discussed.
And, uh, there was a lot of, um, you know, markets and, uh,
it was a good way to invest.
And it was a bridge between west and east, kinda like the, the C is kind
of like a bridge financial flows the west into the e, into China.
but I think the CCP realized that, uh, they couldn't maintain political
control over that 'cause of the protest.
And so they stepped in and they kind of rewrote.
The whole governing document.
Um, and you implemented a national security law.
It's very draconian.
And so yeah, Hong Kong has, has slowly drifted away.
There are, um, um, so I will say that Bitcoiners that uh, do become Bitcoiners,
uh, in China, I see them as like the roses that grow outta concrete.
Right.
Like you have to really, uh, yeah.
So they tend to be like, for lack of a better word, like very based.
Yeah.
'cause they, they get, because like in order to be who they are,
it's actually pretty dangerous to like have even that level of view.
Right.
It's like government money should, like, it's very, very anti what
the Chinese government thinks.
You know?
I don't know if you remember that broadcast or the Chinese government,
the, one of the economists, I think he was working with the
Chinese government or something.
He's just like, if we adopt Bitcoin, like literally everyone will die.
Like, I don't know if you see
Yeah, I saw that it's
like, uh, uh, I have never seen, uh, a more Ian, Ian if, if like, uh, uh, I've
never seen a person fall for the false narrative of inflation is necessary.
Otherwise people would die than that guy.
Like it was hilarious.
yeah, yeah.
And now China has, well, according to its stats, which again, going back to
the elephant, we don't really know, but, uh, has deflation, regardless.
Um, yeah, like with, uh, that, you know, if you're, it's almost like
the, I think it was that said it like live your life so that, like your very
existence is like an act of freedom.
Like I, I, I see that in.
Yeah, co che, um, uh, you know, he, uh, you know, I see that in
a, in, in quite a few Chinese bitcoiners or dissidents, right?
Like they, they are living in a context where like it is pretty dangerous to have
those views and to practice the things.
Like I actually saw, not to snitch or anything, but I saw a few people
using nos or zap each other who are probably Chinese, like in the mainland.
And I was thinking about how like, that's probably illegal,
Yeah, but it, but it is changing the world from the inside.
It's beautiful.
Like, uh, maybe, uh, that's the way to, to, to go.
Maybe that you don't have to become a Tinman Square guy with the shopping bags.
You can, you can be anonymous master VPN person instead,
and, and just live your life.
yeah.
That's what I've been trying to tell people too, is that
Bitcoin is a really unique thing.
'cause it's like, kind of like HT TPS, um, because a lot of, you
know, a lot of people come to my events, they're like Monero people.
They're always like, why is Monero not overthrowing the Chinese state?
Or.
Or buys Monero.
But the, the thing is, is
like, And the reason why is 'cause Monero has like no return profile.
It's like obviously branded to be, you know, but Bitcoin is like, you need
some Normies to be using it because then otherwise you're just like,
literally, like, you're just bait.
Like, I mean, if you use Monero, you're, you're just using Monero, right?
Like, it's like a, it's like that, uh, a narrow chat.
It's like that like line of phone numbers that was only sold to criminals
and then the state took it over.
I'm like, well, you
can't, you need, like, the legitimate and the legitimate use of Bitcoin is like,
it's a store of value that is much better.
It's a much better money, right?
In different ways, uh, in a way that Monero is not.
Um, and so I think with that, um, you know, that's what I've
been trying to tell people.
Like when I went to Hong Kong.
I had this super simplistic narrative in my head that I was gonna find people
who were like, I'm using Bitcoin because you know, fuck the Chinese state.
I'm like, blah, blah, blah.
But, um, they were using the US dollar for that actually.
So there was a lot of like Cantonese forums.
They were like, we want to divest from Hong Kong, we're gonna buy US dollars.
So again, just talking back, I think there's a mental block where it's like
you, it's like the allegory of the cave and you're at the bottom level of the cave
where you're like, digital again is good.
And then you go up one level and you're like, US dollar is good, and
then you go up like another level.
But a lot of very few people have made that leap to the next level.
Uh, although one thing I will say is in China, it's hard to tell because
there are people who are kind of like the si like you do have a silent,
because people will not talk about this.
Right?
Like, they're like, even buying Bitcoin is technically kind of illegal.
So like they're not gonna talk about it openly.
Yeah.
This is, this is my experience with dictatorships in general.
Uh, like when I was on Cuba, it was the same thing.
Like everyone, no one said anything bad about the government.
Like they didn't dare to.
No one will say anything to it, especially to an outsider.
They're bad about the government.
'cause they're like, well, we don't know what you're gonna do with that.
So, um, you know, but you, you see it in the action.
So I actually, uh, I have an article that's going up in a, in a bit that
talks about it, but I interviewed the chain analysis team because they have
relationships with previous OTC desks.
not a huge fan of what they do otherwise, but they, uh, they, you
know, trace like the amount of OTC flows that come in through China.
And that's just been increasing and increasing as we've discussed.
And so, uh, even though, you know, obviously there's not like
conferences in China and there's not, like, there is a two Mandarin
Chinese Bitcoin podcasts though.
Tom and Jerry discover Bitcoin and there's another one that's more technical.
I forget the name.
Um, but there are a few developers.
Like China, they don't actually bother developers or they haven't
bothered developers so far.
So there are some developers who live in China who, uh, work on parts of
Bitcoin just randomly saying that.
But
Tom and Jerry.
yeah, so there's like Tom and Jerry Fa B2B, which means, um,
Tom and Jerry discover Bitcoin.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, so there's two kind of Mandarin language podcasts of Bitcoin, but
the Tom and Jerry one is based in Malaysia, or at least a host are, but
they mostly interview mainland Chinese people 'cause they do it in Mandarin.
and, uh, the other one I think is actually based in mainland China.
I forget what it's called, but there, there are, there are some
podcasts in materials on there.
But, um, I think the thing with that though is like, you need there
to be a broad enough ecosystem.
So, uh, with Hong Kong, I came in, I was like, okay, where's
the, you know, it's like, are they revolting with Bitcoin, et cetera.
And it's not quite as simple as that.
But what I've been telling people is like, you know, Chinese people choosing to put
their money outside the Chinese system.
Is revolution.
It actually is the most, it, it's not even like, you don't wake up and
just be like, I'm a revolutionary.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, there's very few people who are like that.
There's maybe like, I don't know, 5% of the population that's just like,
I actively am trying to be a rebel.
You know?
I, I think like 95 or 90, I don't know how many percent, this is just my, maybe
I'm a pessimist about this, but like many people are just trying to be like,
I just wanna live my life day to day.
Like, if the government doesn't get in my way, I won't get
in the way of the government.
that's a normie like in, in any country, that's what most people do.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
But I, I mean in, in China what's really interesting is that normies are confronted
with like really draconian restrictions that actually affect their lives.
Like we talked about the VPN example, but the Bitcoin example is a really
good example because if you're in China, you're not allowed to invest really any
significant amount money outside of China.
So that means you only really have access to Chinese shares, which have
been tanking Chinese real estate, which has been tanking Chinese government
bonds, which are kind of in a bubble and like a gold ETF comes and gets lifted.
And like they had to de-list it 'cause there was so much demand for it.
Right?
So, you know, that almost is like the, the revolution per se.
It's like the backdoor revolution.
But that is actually like, it's just the incentives.
You're not like encouraging people to revolt or rebel.
You're just pointing out that like this is a tool for you to get out of the
system and it, it is the thing, and I point out in my book that is the thing
that Chinese Communist party fears most.
'cause their whole system is based on the state controlling market, right?
If the Chinese people are able to actually flow their capital outside
the system, that's actually the most threatening thing there that can happen.
And you know, in Hong Kong, the interesting thing, because people
ask me all the time, they're like, why is Hong Kong trying to be a
Web3 hub and all this other stuff?
And I'm like, well, it's because, yeah, I, I mean, I have my own opinions about it.
But, um, the reason why they're doing that is because they're losing capital inflow.
Like the Chinese state is losing access to foreign capital.
And that's become like an existential problem for them.
And the Chinese model.
that's a lot to take in here.
I mean, Roger, this has been super fascinating.
Uh, yeah, I, I, I'd love to learn more about China.
Uh, um, so, and, uh, we, we are going to see each other in Prague where, uh, you,
your book will be, probably be available from our booth actually, uh, be be.
Before we wrap this thing up, is there, is there anything we haven't, any subject
we haven't touched you wanna mention?
Like, uh, did we miss anything?
Uh, yeah, I just wanted to mention briefly that I'm working on a second
book, which has nothing to do with China
Oh, fantastic.
Do you have a working title?
it's not a good one though.
I'm, I'm like really bad at that.
So maybe, maybe you all can help me with this, but, uh, this, the working subtitle
is like, uh, how not to get Fucked by AI to own the Future, or How Not to Get Owned
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So I mean, generally the idea is to try to, what I, what I noticed is there's a
lot of anxiety about like AI or whatever, like just, is AI coming to eat us, take
our jobs, et cetera, take our woman.
Yeah.
I dunno.
Um, but um, yeah, trying to use that as an anchoring point for people to
understand more deeply why their choices of technologies and use so important.
You know, so Bitcoin nostri, uh, freedom Tech in general, encryption,
why these things really matter.
Yeah.
Super cool.
I, I mean, a lot of, like we mentioned before, uh, doom porn and black pill,
uh, FUD salesmen, uh, that they are loud.
so, uh, don't be afraid of ai.
Uh, real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.
And, uh, anywhere you want to send our listeners, uh, on the
internet, anything you want them to do, a call to action of some kind.
I mean, um, if they want like more, uh, I know we've had like a
really in, in-depth conversation.
I really appreciate it.
Um, if they want more the same, there's, uh, I have a website, China bitcoin
book.com, which just has more of like my reporting and stuff like that.
Um, yeah, uh, I've been trying to send people to my noster, but like that
has, people have been telling me my Nippo five hasn't been working as well.
So, I mean, I'm lowkey@nosterverify.com, but if you can't find me, just like look
up my name, NOST should be to find me.
I do have at Roger H 1991 on X, if you wanna follow me on there, but recently
I've just decided to, I'm only gonna post memes there and like, not like
I'm only gonna repost and post memes.
So less, yeah, I don't know.
It depends on what flavor of me that you want.
Uh, access.
All right.
Well, uh, thank you very much.
great conversation.
Great to have you, uh, wish you all the best.
And, uh, this has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show and nothing else.
Thanks for listening.
I appreciate it.