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Mr. Cat, a dear, warm, super warm welcome back to the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

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Nice to have you here again.

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Thank you, Knut.

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Yes, you've stirred the pot a bit in the Bitcoin space like the last couple of days

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by first showing support for BIP110 and then withdrawing that support.

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So that has got a lot of attention from both sides.

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And I know that a lot of people are very curious about this conversation and where this will lead and what your rationale was for, first for supporting and then for withdrawing your support.

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So we'll look into that.

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Where do you want to start this?

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Like, where do we want this conversation?

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I think, you know, the backstory that we are sitting here on the podcast now is that the two of us had a long talk yesterday on the phone.

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And, and we, or at least I realized that, you know, I think, I mean, after that call,

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I watched the mechanics latest video and I think his approach, you know, of being humble

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and just pretty brutally honest, that really resonated with me.

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And I think it's super important.

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I'm going to like, just explain because I consider it, uh, I mean, I apologized on X

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and there is a reason I apologized on X of course.

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And the reason is that I think my support for BIP110 was premature.

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It was emotional.

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And I should have taken more time to reflect and evaluate and learn more basically.

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And the reason this happened was that I have been basically disconnected fully from the

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Bitcoin space for a year, the whole of 2025.

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After this stupid five years of fighting Craig Wright came to an end, I really kind of had

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the strong urge to take some time off, to put it that way.

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I had enough of Bitcoin conversations for a while.

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I just needed to focus on other things.

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And I have been focusing on stuff here in Norway.

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I started a podcast in Norway.

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basically a public, I'm not a public person, but I didn't like do any efforts to hide my

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name or identity here in Norway. The reason for that again is, I mean, I got fully doxxed.

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Anyone who wants to find out who I am can easily do it after Craig and CoinGeek made

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sure of that. So when I came back after, you know, being out of the Bitcoin bubble for

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a year. A lot had happened, as we all know. And the main thing being this decision of Bitcoin

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Core to merge Core version 30 with the uncapping of OP return. So when I came back, I was kind

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of like mind blown to learn how this happened, like in which way it happened, how arrogantly

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CORE did it despite obvious controversy. I had so many red flags popping up. I got emotional

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and when I saw BIP-100 learned about BIP-110, it seemed like the type of response to what

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I consider total lack of principles from CORE and irresponsibility. So it was like very

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knee jerk and like emotional reaction for me to just almost blindly support it.

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But I, as I said, I came into this with like, not the most solid understanding of the whole

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dynamic. So what I saw as the main flags, red flags from core was, you know, the technical

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hand waving, which I got tons of when I started just asking questions about this. I didn't like

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like the dismissive attitude.

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the whole pleb slop narrative, you know that any pleb that is in Bitcoin for very principled reasons

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shall just be hand waved away as a ridiculous spouter of slop. That to me is a red flag in itself.

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I saw who supported uncapping up return. I saw the people who cheered that specific change on.

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Obviously, the narrative of uncapping up return never made sense to me.

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It still doesn't.

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They call it harm reduction.

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But to standardize a new avenue of spamming and grifting on Bitcoin, I'm just not on board

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with it.

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And I think it's a dangerous pivot from trying to keep Bitcoin as money and the mission of

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separating money and state.

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So I jumped into supporting BIP110.

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I always did say I was not sure this was the best solution, but I always also said that

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I feel something has to be done to counter this seeming uncontrolled slide of principles

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that Core is exhibiting, in my opinion.

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So I kept repeating this and I kept saying that I supported BIP110, but there were things that

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were lingering in my mind as doubts and still is, which is why I withdrew my support.

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And I feel like this urgency premise that we have to do something now, it has to be done now

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or else it's over. Bitcoin is over. This urgency thing, that's a red flag for me.

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I think the whole CSAM thing, I'm actually not sure about that. I think it's crazy that we have

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opened up a return to basically paste in CSAM if someone would be crazy enough to do that.

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And I do see a difference of CSAM appearing on the Bitcoin blockchain as a result of a

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standardized way of doing it instead of through some SegWit taproot hack with the witness discount.

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I see a difference there. If nothing else, it's a huge principle difference.

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I had and still maybe have a little bit of a problem with edge cases where coins could

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theoretically become unspendable. If you have some crazy multi-sig with time locks, for example,

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I had and still have some issues with understanding the governance part of the BIP110 side.

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For example, I'll be blunt and say it like, is Luke fit to be a leader of basically, you know,

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a full on pivot of the governance side of Bitcoin. I respect Luke deeply and I think he lives and

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bleeds Bitcoin. I think his intentions are as honorable as they get. But some of his rhetoric,

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I think is wild. And it's a little bit hard to see that as being the official voice of Bitcoin

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governance in some ways. But I think it's even wilder to have Gloria Shao be the official voice

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of Bitcoin governance, just to make that clear. So I think it kind of boils down to a question

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or it boils down to different things, but should we like, you can do nothing or I can do something,

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but something can be doing harm and also doing nothing right now with dip 110 is not the same as

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never doing anything so is this our best shot is is it solid enough good enough for us to use as

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the last stand you know the the hill we die on or not because i'm i'm willing to die on a hill

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to resist what core is doing. That's for sure. I'm just not sure if BIP-110 is the hill.

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But I do feel, you know, people saying, shall we just sit around talking forever?

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And that's something I definitely don't want to do. I think that's really bad.

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yeah if make sure the hill you choose to die on has a sufficiently uh cozy valley to live in

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beneath it yeah would that be a fair so so i would it be a fair um assessment of your position

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that uh you are not against uh bip 110 you've just withdrawn your official support so you're

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right now in the face of studying the proposal more properly before stating your official position.

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Would that be? Yeah. Because I saw some backlash in a couple of forums where they called it flip

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flopping and that you are now like, some people see you as an enemy now, whether I tried to calm

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that down by saying like, no, that's tribalism. If a guy has doubts, then like, just give him time.

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and we'll see what happens.

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It was just, you know, back to the,

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it was just so retarded to,

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in hindsight retarded,

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because I was honest

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and it wasn't like I was aware

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that I was maybe premature in my support.

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I think maybe some of it is PTSD

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from fighting scammers in Bitcoin a lot

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that I kind of jumped the gun a little bit.

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But it just felt irresponsible for me to,

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you know, I changed the whole HODLonaut avatar with the BIP110 patch and all of that stuff.

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That felt suddenly, I had my doubts, but still the principal side of it trumped everything else.

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And just a short recap of the Giacomo talk, and I kind of feel bad for even tagging him because

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it's so unfair that people are attacking Giacomo like he somehow tried to convert me to leave

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BitP110. He never, with one sentence, tried to make me do anything. I mean, he's a friend.

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I've known him for a long time. I think he's one of the most honest, solid people in Bitcoin.

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I never ever caught him in any type of manipulation or dishonesty.

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And that means a lot to me because I've been here for a while now.

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So of course, his opinion gave me more doubt when his opinion is that for several reasons

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he does not support BIP-110 as of yet.

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And it came off, you know, understandably very retarded and weirdly if it was understood

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like, yeah, no, the miners don't support it. So then it's impossible. It was more like,

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I think of it like, I don't think miners are going to help this happen. I think maybe in the end,

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they could be forced to just go along with it. But I don't think it's going to be any type of

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slow trickle where we have 5% miner support, we have 10% miner. It's going to be almost like

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like a moment where it flips if it flips. And there was like something about being

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reality oriented on how uninterested the miners are in this, which it was that even that was kind

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of like flawed thinking, but that along with his opinion of the urgency part being overstated.

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And I do feel that a little bit having been in the block size wars and listened to Roger

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for years when with his amazing children are dying messaging you know we have to like uh we have to

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increase the block size for children are dying for fuck's sake but yeah so so there are there are

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like in some it just gave me more pause and doubt than i could have and still have this

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BIP 110 support on X.

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But I feel ashamed of it.

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I mean, I think it's stupid.

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I think I wasted my credibility.

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I don't think that.

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You wasted some cred points maybe, but not all of them.

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But just to be clear, then, I do take a lot of self-criticism for it.

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And now I just want to, you know, make damn sure that I don't do take any hard stance on this until I have really, really deeply evaluated it.

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And also, it's not like I think that my, and maybe that was my mistake, that more people than I, I had been away for a long time that more people cared about what I wrote than I was aware, which made my support being, it was harder or it was more impossible to stay in support when I had so much doubt all of a sudden.

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Yeah. And I mean, at the end of the day, when the day that people stop having self-criticism

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and just cling on to the When tribalism wins then we don have any Bitcoin anymore Getting Bitcoiners to get along is a bit like herding cats but that a good thing

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I'm still supporting BIP-110, by the way, officially.

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And I think I can sum up the reasons why by paraphrasing the great speech in Team America World Police,

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It's a Matt and Trey's puppet movie from 2006 or something, I believe.

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I remember it well.

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Yeah, so the thing is, I'm going to self-censor here a bit.

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See, there are three kinds of people.

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Ds, Ps, and A-holes, right?

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That's what it is.

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Maybe I don't need to self-censor.

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Like dicks, pusses?

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Dicks, pusses, and assholes, yes.

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There are three kinds of people, dicks, pusses, and assholes.

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I think we're far enough into the YouTube video to not get, like, immediately banned there.

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Pussies think everyone can get along, and dicks just want to fuck all the time without thinking it through.

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But then you got your assholes, and all the assholes wants to do is shit all over everything.

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So pussies may get mad at dicks once in a while because pussies get fucked by dicks.

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But dicks also fuck assholes.

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And if they didn't fuck the assholes, you know what you get?

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you get your dick and your pussy all covered in shit and here comes the paraphrasing we the plebs

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are the dicks we are the reckless arrogant stupid dicks we are reckless arrogant stupid dicks

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and the developers are pussies and the spammers are assholes pussies don't like dicks because

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pussies get fucked by dicks uh meaning us plebs but dicks also fuck assholes meaning the spammers

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assholes just want to shit over everything pussies may think they can deal with assholes in their way

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but the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick with some balls the problem with dicks is

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that they sometimes they fuck too much or fuck when it isn't appropriate and it takes a pussy

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to show them that but sometimes pussies get so full of shit that they become assholes themselves

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because pussies are only an inch away from an asshole oh my god uh it's brilliant actually

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There's so much wisdom. I don't know much in this crazy, crazy world, but I do know that if you don't let us fuck these assholes, we're going to have our dicks and our pussies all covered in shit. And I think that's the essence of this entire debate.

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we may be stupid and this may all be plebslop but i do plebslop for a living and i'm not gonna

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stop doing that i think fucking the assholes is is more important here than pleasing the pussies

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so that's why i'm taking the official stance i'm wholeheartedly behind you know what you said there

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so if that analogy was the whole thing we would be you know supporting uh both of us would be

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supporting it wholeheartedly. Yeah. So a bit of history here, I think, is appropriate to get this

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going. We need to lay out first where we're coming from. We've been friends for a very long time.

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Behind you, I think you have a picture of our first true collaboration, which is the second

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edition of the Citadel 21 magazine. Correct. Yeah. Which you're reviving, by the way. We can

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get into that later or you might be reviving it uh we're both on that cover it's made by uh

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cypherpunk now a great bitcoin artist yeah martin fisher yeah uh and he made but 21 of those i know

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guillacomo has one behind him when he does the interviews and and so does katie the russian who

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is also on there so so so does mr huddle i think if he didn't refuse uh to receive it because all

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of the people who are on that poster got one of them.

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Yeah, and it's beautiful. And yeah, right now, I don't have it here in Spain. It's still

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back in Sweden, but it's a beautiful, beautiful poster. And I aim to put it up behind me someday.

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Shout out to Martin Fisher. I have more of his art on my walls, and I think he's one of the best

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artists in Bitcoin history.

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Absolutely. When is that from, by the way, that issue?

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Probably 22.

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22. So it's not that old. I mean, we go back earlier than that. I know that.

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It could be 21 as well.

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Yeah, because I remember in Riga 2019, there were cutouts of the Hodlunoth helmet and posters saying, where's Mr. Cat? And everyone was looking for you and couldn't find you.

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Yeah, that was so cool of the Honey Badger guys to support me like that.

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Yeah, and that was your first claim to fame had nothing to do with the katana expert, Dr. Craig Wright, but it was actually the lightning torch. So after the block size wars, when the lightning was...

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It was May 2020, Knut, so it was earlier than I said.

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Yeah, this is way back. But before that, you started the lightning torch, which was basically showing the world that the lightning network actually worked by increasing by one sat and sending a torch in form of...

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Yeah, it was like 10,000 sats increase per jump.

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All right. And you did that twice. I think I was in the second one, but not in the first one.

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Yeah, we tried to do a replay in the year after in 2020. It went really well until some guy misunderstood completely and just sent it. I think he sent it to Jack without even asking Jack if he wanted it and it just stranded there.

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Yeah, funny experiment, though. And before that, if we do a TLDR on the block-sized wars, because everyone has a different memory of it, and I'd like to pick your brain on what you remember. I know that the book, The Block-sized Wars, I don't think that gives a – it tries to be neutral, but I don't think the wars were neutral. I think it was an attempt at a hostile takeover rather than just two sides arguing for different arguments.

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I think there were vested interests in increasing the block size in order to centralize Bitcoin and take it over.

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And I think the immune response was against exactly that.

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I think we can confirm that suspicion or this claim just by remembering what Roger did a little later.

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He teamed up with Craig Wright.

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I think you don't need to know much more about Roger's character and intentions than that.

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No, and he also controlled Bitcoin.com, which listed Bitcoin Cash as the real Bitcoin.

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And I don't know if Roger actually invented Bitcoin Cash.

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I think he sort of, there were probably other people involved.

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But one thing to know here is that the first attempt at increasing the block size was Gavin and Mike Hearn with Bitcoin XT, right?

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So they wanted...

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Was XT before Classic or were they like parallel? I don't even remember.

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I think XT was the first one.

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And so what happened was Satoshi pulled out and gave the keys to the repository to Gavin,

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effectively making Gavin sort of the official spokesperson for Bitcoin.

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And I suspect that Gavin kind of liked that.

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And also he got advisory roles in all the surrounding companies and stuff.

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And he may or may not have had the...

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Like I'm speculating here and I don't want to be too conspiracy and bash people too much.

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But having said that, there clearly was an incentive for him to be on that side.

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if not for anything else, then to just increase his own influence of the project.

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And he also, I mean, he fell for the whole Craig Wright thing.

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Craig Wright bamboozled Gavin later, and Gavin said that this is Satoshi.

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That's also part of the story.

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Yeah, he didn't only fool for it.

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He allowed Craig to parade him around as the crown witness of his Satoshiness.

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I sat in the court in 2022 in Oslo listening to Craig's lawyers again and again read Gavin's old words about how Craig was Satoshi.

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And Gavin just sat and looked at it and didn't come forward at all.

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No, and have we heard anything from Gavin since?

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Has there been any official statement?

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Has he apologized or something?

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I don't remember.

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I don't think so.

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So that's interesting.

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So what happened basically was that there was a cabal of some of the most profitable companies in Bitcoin at the time.

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Some of the bigger exchanges, some of the biggest miners came together.

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And what was it called? BitPay, the payment processor, which Jeff Garcik was an advisor to, by the way.

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And so the big blockers basically came together in a meeting in New York where they decided that, okay, we'll implement this SegWit soft fork that everyone wants, but we'll also at the same time hard fork or a couple of months after we'll hard fork and increase the block size to two megabytes, the base block size.

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Yeah, this was called SegWit2x, right?

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Yes. And then the soft fork happened smoothly because everyone was signaling that they were for it. And then this is a very much a TLDR. There is like BIP 91 and 141 and 148, like a bunch of stuff happening that we don't need to go into that much detail.

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But what basically happened was that the users said no to the hard fork, which was then canceled because the miners were afraid of splitting the chain.

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So they canceled the 2x part of the thing because people were signaling against it.

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And around the time, there's also then the Bitcoin Cash hard fork happens, right?

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They decide that at a certain block height, they're going to split the chain into two, effectively making the 21 million, 42 million.

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So like a crossover between a Christmas present and a train crash.

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And then a future market forms where you can sort of stake your bets on which of the chains are going to win.

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And I think this futures market is a big deal in what's actually going to happen in scenarios like this.

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But now you're talking about the 2X chain or the SegWit chain, right?

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Yeah, exactly.

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Because the Bcash chain, since it's hard forked, that ran its course.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So this is pretty, yeah, I'm mixing things up here.

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But of course, the futures market is for will there be a 2X chain or not?

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And there's clearly a signal that there wouldn't be one.

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And this played a big role in why the miners capitulated, I think.

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And a lot of that had to do with this user-activated software.

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Also to be remembered, Yihan Wu and Bitmain had something called ASIC Boost,

248
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which is, it's not proven that they actually ever used it,

249
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but it was a way for their miners to mine more efficiently than competing miners.

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It was like a small bug in the hashing algorithm or in SHA-256, I think, that you could hash

251
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like 10% faster or something with this implementation.

252
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And SegWit would prevent that.

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So it would prevent the head start that Bitmain had.

254
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That made Bitmain dig in pretty hard against it.

255
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Yeah.

256
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So, and what we have now is a similar situation, but the big difference is that this time around,

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core is not on the same side as the intolerant minority of plebs.

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Because we had an intolerant minority of plebs.

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That's what triggered the block size wars.

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That thing too, like that prevented that hard fork from happening.

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So right now we're in the stages of having a,

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there's a proposed soft fork.

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We don't know if it will lead to a hard fork,

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but that's one of the concerns is that it might lead to a hard fork

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and nobody sort of wants that.

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Yeah, I think the dynamics are rather different, even though, I mean, I agree with what you say,

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but back then it was like, I mean, from my perspective, it was like everyone pretty much

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in Bitcoin or the huge majority viewed the big block thing as an attack on the status quo.

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And now it's kind of like turned around a little bit because I'm probably entrenched by the fact

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that core has always been on the side of and seen as good actors and, you know, solid Bitcoiners.

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And right now it's kind of different. It's like, it's easy for the pro V30 people to portray the

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big 110 people as, you know, attacking the status quo, so to say, or like doing one thing to do

273
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reckless things And I think that a that an interesting debate on its own like because I seen quite a few people while I supported BIP110 trying to like put me like oh you basically a BSV now or like which

274
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is insane to me. So which one of these sides can credibly claim that the other side reminds

275
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most of the big blockers back then? Yeah, and that's a super interesting discussion

276
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because the first change,

277
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the controversial change

278
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that people were opposed to

279
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was the op return policy increase,

280
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which is not a consensus change,

281
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but still a change to a policy

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that most of the,

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or at least 20% of the plebs

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didn't agree to.

285
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I mean, it's a standardization, right?

286
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Yeah.

287
00:28:34,774 --> 00:28:36,574
Yeah, so it is signaling

288
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that these things are okay now.

289
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Go and do them here.

290
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Which is a very, very, it's subtle,

291
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but it is a change from the attitude in Bitcoin

292
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back in 2017, I think.

293
00:28:53,334 --> 00:28:53,894
Yes, I agree.

294
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So, and I hope I'm not misrepresenting any stance here,

295
00:29:02,274 --> 00:29:05,354
but I think the argument from Core is that this,

296
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In the end, this results in something less harmful than if we kept things the way they were.

297
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And on the other side, you have, we don't care if it's less harmful or not.

298
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We want to fight these things completely, and we don't want them here.

299
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We want to kick them out, while the core side is saying that it's futile,

300
00:29:22,014 --> 00:29:25,334
and spam can always be crammed in in other different ways.

301
00:29:25,514 --> 00:29:29,134
And therein lies the core of the conflict, pardon the pun.

302
00:29:29,134 --> 00:29:36,614
Yeah. And the more like, that's the one thing that the more I reflect on it and think about it,

303
00:29:36,614 --> 00:29:43,214
and the more I hear the rationale or the attempted rationale, it just makes less and less sense to

304
00:29:43,214 --> 00:29:49,974
me. And just like the first principle of, oh, it's possible to abuse the Bitcoin blockchain

305
00:29:49,974 --> 00:29:56,714
with this Segwit taproot hack and the witness discount to cram bullshit in there in very

306
00:29:56,714 --> 00:30:02,974
complex ways that you basically need third party applications to be able to view them.

307
00:30:02,974 --> 00:30:12,474
Let's just uncap up return and make it possible. Let's open a huge new door and standardize that.

308
00:30:13,194 --> 00:30:21,234
The signal and the philosophical impact of that from the reference implementation is unacceptable

309
00:30:21,234 --> 00:30:28,414
to me. Yeah, so the question then becomes, what shall we do about it and when? And the proposal

310
00:30:28,414 --> 00:30:37,634
is BIP110. Yeah, and I love the concept of limiting up return as a consensus rule.

311
00:30:39,214 --> 00:30:46,074
Yeah, so yeah, I love that too, like because all of a sudden it's consensus and you don't have this,

312
00:30:46,074 --> 00:30:49,094
You're forcing the network to make a decision, basically.

313
00:30:50,074 --> 00:30:56,314
So maybe we should go through the points of the fork, or maybe a bit of other preamble here.

314
00:30:56,734 --> 00:31:08,374
I think another thing here, and why the BIP is controversial, is that some fringe use cases that has to do with, what's it called,

315
00:31:08,374 --> 00:31:12,274
Tapscript and some time lock functions, Miniscript.

316
00:31:12,954 --> 00:31:17,454
Yeah, some really, really advanced features of Bitcoin.

317
00:31:17,594 --> 00:31:23,954
Like you have this, I met a lot of developer types in Bitcoin that have this vision of

318
00:31:23,954 --> 00:31:29,314
if we can make it more complex and if we can allow it to be more programmable,

319
00:31:29,314 --> 00:31:30,874
we get all these nice features.

320
00:31:31,574 --> 00:31:37,354
And my approach has always been before deciding your opinion on anything in this,

321
00:31:37,354 --> 00:31:42,554
ask yourself, does this make Bitcoin better money? And to be better money is very simple.

322
00:31:42,554 --> 00:31:50,974
You have the six or seven properties of money, and you have money solves two problems. It's the

323
00:31:50,974 --> 00:31:58,634
mutual coincidence of need problem, which allows money to be better than barter.

324
00:31:59,354 --> 00:32:04,254
And then there's economic calculation. It allows you to do economic calculation,

325
00:32:04,254 --> 00:32:14,534
And the more fixed the supply, the more predictable the schedule, the more predictable and stable everything is, the better it functions at that, basically, which is why you shouldn't fuck with it.

326
00:32:14,874 --> 00:32:26,094
So fucking with it, there's always a cost to fucking with the rules because it may fuck up an incentive here or there, thereby making it less good as money because it's now less predictable.

327
00:32:26,094 --> 00:32:35,394
And it doesn't matter if you have a smart contract feature in which you can time lock one out of seven signing participants.

328
00:32:35,894 --> 00:32:39,094
That is always inferior to me.

329
00:32:39,414 --> 00:32:47,254
To me, that's always inferior to just, I hate the word ossifying, but to just leave Bitcoin alone and don't fiddle around with it.

330
00:32:47,814 --> 00:32:52,354
There's a fuck around and find out part to doing so.

331
00:32:52,354 --> 00:32:59,694
I always loved the term ossify, but it's probably because I'm a ridiculously stupid plebslopspouter.

332
00:33:01,594 --> 00:33:07,834
I don't think Bitcoin can ossify because at the end of the day is people voluntarily choosing software.

333
00:33:07,834 --> 00:33:11,334
But the concept being, you know, that fuck all this innovation.

334
00:33:11,834 --> 00:33:21,894
We have already now something that is completely disruptive to a lot of the worst shit going on in the world because of the money system.

335
00:33:21,894 --> 00:33:23,674
Why should we risk it?

336
00:33:24,294 --> 00:33:29,894
And I just want to put something in there that I thought about when you talked now, like the arguments.

337
00:33:30,674 --> 00:33:45,254
One thing that triggers me and that is a red flag for me is bad faith arguments and arguments that are, you know, basically false or exaggerated or designed to create FUD.

338
00:33:45,254 --> 00:33:49,354
and I want to throw in one argument that I've seen

339
00:33:49,354 --> 00:33:52,094
and that's been picked up by a lot of people.

340
00:33:52,274 --> 00:33:56,134
It's basically that BIP-110 breaks multisig

341
00:33:56,134 --> 00:34:00,394
and suddenly you have, I mean, so many Bitcoiners

342
00:34:00,394 --> 00:34:03,574
secure their coins with different multisig solutions,

343
00:34:03,794 --> 00:34:05,134
usually two out of three.

344
00:34:06,354 --> 00:34:10,134
And when you saw this suspicion or argument

345
00:34:10,134 --> 00:34:13,194
that BIP-110 is a threat to your cold storage

346
00:34:13,194 --> 00:34:14,814
if you run a regular multisig,

347
00:34:15,254 --> 00:34:18,594
That's a very bad faith argument to me because it doesn't.

348
00:34:19,694 --> 00:34:31,814
Similarly to the argument on the other side, on the pro BIP110 side, that someone is claiming that Bitcoin is 100% dead if we don't do something now.

349
00:34:32,074 --> 00:34:33,914
It's urgent and it has to happen now.

350
00:34:33,914 --> 00:34:40,834
but that doesn't i mean i'm just throwing this out there because i think that's two examples of

351
00:34:40,834 --> 00:34:48,254
things that i personally don't uh find any truth in were you pro taproot

352
00:34:48,254 --> 00:34:59,014
yeah but it was based uh on uh trusting other people yeah same here based on and i think that

353
00:34:59,014 --> 00:35:06,054
was one of the really cool things about mechanics last video that he kind of owned up to having been

354
00:35:06,054 --> 00:35:14,474
to that he took self-criticism for some of the mechanics and stuff that happened in the block

355
00:35:14,474 --> 00:35:20,494
size war and i think honestly also looking back is really important that we have to be honest about

356
00:35:20,494 --> 00:35:28,254
things yeah the way i see we we won one battle so we prove that bitcoin can be like this a

357
00:35:28,254 --> 00:35:34,234
decentralized enough to withstand attacks. We didn't prove that it would always be,

358
00:35:34,314 --> 00:35:38,734
and we didn't prove that that was always going to be the case. We just proved that we had the

359
00:35:38,734 --> 00:35:46,054
ability to resist a hostile takeover. And Taproot, I was for it too, because I've been convinced by

360
00:35:46,054 --> 00:35:53,594
some technical arguments about coin joins and basically making transactions more private and

361
00:35:53,594 --> 00:36:01,874
more anonymous because of the like same lengthness of but in hindsight i think it came with side

362
00:36:01,874 --> 00:36:07,074
effects that were definitely not worth it and i'm with jimmy song's stance on this as that in

363
00:36:07,074 --> 00:36:13,994
hindsight we probably should have been a bit more self-critical and and that adds credibility

364
00:36:13,994 --> 00:36:21,754
and weight to the ossification argument or call it not ossification but like the resistance to

365
00:36:21,754 --> 00:36:25,974
big changes or the resistance to this innovation narrative.

366
00:36:26,594 --> 00:36:31,634
Because when that is actually the case, when Bitcoin is actually resistant to change,

367
00:36:31,814 --> 00:36:37,214
sufficiently resistant to change, theoretically, at least, that means that Bitcoin can only change

368
00:36:37,214 --> 00:36:42,254
for the better, which is like the opposite of a democracy. But it means that if we have such

369
00:36:42,254 --> 00:36:46,654
overwhelming consensus that we will change it, then everyone thought it was a good idea,

370
00:36:46,654 --> 00:36:51,274
Meaning that it was, we can define what good is by that metric alone.

371
00:36:51,674 --> 00:36:51,774
Yeah.

372
00:36:51,874 --> 00:37:02,674
After we won the blocks I swore, I was, I think I could go back and find tons of tweets about this from Hudlinot that, you know, let's not risk this again, guys.

373
00:37:02,794 --> 00:37:07,334
Let's like, let's, let's stay sober now and not do crazy shit anymore.

374
00:37:07,614 --> 00:37:09,894
Now we have what we have, what we need.

375
00:37:10,174 --> 00:37:11,274
Let's not get crazy.

376
00:37:11,274 --> 00:37:22,134
And the analogy would be if I lived with my family in some almost paradise place, I almost said island, but I think you can't use the word island positively anymore.

377
00:37:24,474 --> 00:37:26,874
At least not when you have children on it.

378
00:37:26,874 --> 00:37:32,374
Anyways, if I had a nice setup with my life and with the things that really mattered to

379
00:37:32,374 --> 00:37:40,454
me, no way in hell would I start risking that for like small potential increments of even

380
00:37:40,454 --> 00:37:41,634
more happiness, you know?

381
00:37:41,634 --> 00:37:42,634
Yeah, no, no, no.

382
00:37:42,634 --> 00:37:48,654
When the alternative outcome can be that a dragon comes flying in and burns down my

383
00:37:48,654 --> 00:37:50,534
family and everything.

384
00:37:50,534 --> 00:37:52,874
That's just like very simple logic to me.

385
00:37:52,874 --> 00:37:55,974
Yeah, exactly.

386
00:37:55,974 --> 00:38:01,734
I mean, and I think that that kind of brings us into this because it's a weird situation.

387
00:38:01,734 --> 00:38:05,814
It's like I have this position that I don't want Bitcoin to change.

388
00:38:05,814 --> 00:38:12,554
And then I'm seeing core pushing change in a direction I hate.

389
00:38:12,554 --> 00:38:18,094
And then there is no solution to just sit still and continue to let that happen because

390
00:38:18,094 --> 00:38:24,094
that's like slow motion dragon flying into torch everything I love.

391
00:38:24,094 --> 00:38:34,134
But also, I don't want to risk releasing another dragon that flies way faster and the resistance leading to even faster destruction.

392
00:38:34,334 --> 00:38:38,954
So it's a very difficult situation right now, I think.

393
00:38:39,894 --> 00:38:40,994
Yeah, I totally agree.

394
00:38:40,994 --> 00:38:45,494
It's hard to know what the proper stance is.

395
00:38:45,654 --> 00:38:47,854
And our reputations are on the line.

396
00:38:47,854 --> 00:38:55,174
After this has played out, regardless of which side that wins, our tweets are going to haunt us.

397
00:38:55,274 --> 00:38:56,274
That's always the case.

398
00:38:56,294 --> 00:38:57,314
I don't care about outcome.

399
00:38:58,474 --> 00:39:07,694
I mean, I care about if my intention was honest and I can't do anything more than contributing my most honest words and actions.

400
00:39:07,994 --> 00:39:09,554
And if they were wrong, so be it, you know.

401
00:39:10,154 --> 00:39:17,154
Here's another interesting conversation I had with Jimmy Song about being principled versus being utilitarian.

402
00:39:17,154 --> 00:39:27,074
And I think the way I see it, the lower your time preference, the more utilitarian your principles become.

403
00:39:27,694 --> 00:39:32,914
So being principled is utilitarian, but only if you have an extremely low time preference.

404
00:39:32,914 --> 00:39:39,614
If you can extrapolate your time preference into forever, then a principled approach to everything is the correct one.

405
00:39:39,614 --> 00:39:46,254
whereas utilitarianism uh uh like making your decisions not because the you believe in them

406
00:39:46,254 --> 00:39:52,574
from first principles but because of an outcome you find more or less likely exactly is is is sort

407
00:39:52,574 --> 00:39:57,794
of a high time preference thing and and here's to me where this becomes so fucking tricky in bitcoin

408
00:39:57,794 --> 00:40:04,414
because the the utility of signaling pro this fork and everything is that it might

409
00:40:04,414 --> 00:40:10,934
scare off spammers. And it's seemingly so because now fees are low and there isn't as much spam as

410
00:40:10,934 --> 00:40:16,434
there was because I think that some of these people are getting cold feet. And that's the

411
00:40:16,434 --> 00:40:22,474
same thing with also developers who want to do really advanced features in wallets. I mean,

412
00:40:22,474 --> 00:40:28,234
the more fringe you become in Bitcoin and the more fringe things you do, the more your coins

413
00:40:28,234 --> 00:40:36,494
are at risk. And that was always the case. If you decide to make a transaction that you know that a

414
00:40:36,494 --> 00:40:44,094
part of the community does not approve of, or we don't like that transaction, we are tolerating it,

415
00:40:44,134 --> 00:40:49,694
but we don't approve of it, like an NFT on Bitcoin, for instance, of a stupid dick pic or whatever,

416
00:40:50,294 --> 00:40:56,234
monkey JPEG, then that is a riskier transaction. But because at some point, there's the risk that

417
00:40:56,234 --> 00:41:06,034
that feature will be soft forked away or by some consensus rule change, those coins are at risk.

418
00:41:06,034 --> 00:41:13,194
And I think what BIP110 does and what this proposed cat thing that is probably not going anywhere,

419
00:41:13,354 --> 00:41:18,294
but just the threat of that thing happening and doing this whack-a-mole thing,

420
00:41:18,374 --> 00:41:20,194
I think that scared off some spammers.

421
00:41:20,754 --> 00:41:24,634
Some of them are signaling that we don't care what you do, we're always going to find new ways,

422
00:41:24,634 --> 00:41:26,034
but I don't really buy that.

423
00:41:26,034 --> 00:41:29,134
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424
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425
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426
00:41:46,261 --> 00:41:49,901
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427
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428
00:41:53,641 --> 00:41:59,041
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429
00:41:59,661 --> 00:42:00,161
Brush your teeth.

430
00:42:00,361 --> 00:42:03,401
Our favorite hardware wallet is, of course, the BitBox.

431
00:42:03,401 --> 00:42:07,021
Check out our friends at Bitbox at bitbox.swiss.

432
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There you'll find a bunch of different products, but the main one, the Bitbox O2 Nova with the Bitcoin firmware installed,

433
00:42:15,361 --> 00:42:21,361
is a fantastic hardware wallet and the software that comes along with it has a fantastic user interface.

434
00:42:21,641 --> 00:42:23,481
It is one of my personal favorites.

435
00:42:23,761 --> 00:42:25,521
It's easy to use and it's super secure.

436
00:42:25,861 --> 00:42:28,121
It's my personal favorite hardware wallet.

437
00:42:28,501 --> 00:42:32,981
It's super slick, super privacy focused and super easy to use.

438
00:42:32,981 --> 00:42:41,321
So go to bitbox.swiss and use code infinity for a discount.

439
00:42:41,681 --> 00:42:42,281
Check it out now.

440
00:42:43,301 --> 00:42:47,541
It's a decentralized threat against centralization.

441
00:42:48,461 --> 00:42:52,941
And grifters, they always would want more centralization.

442
00:42:54,061 --> 00:43:02,681
Should we try to run through what we consider what is against BIP110?

443
00:43:02,981 --> 00:43:07,941
or what gives us pause and what gives us the desire to die on the hill?

444
00:43:08,761 --> 00:43:13,981
Yes, I have the website up here, bip110.org,

445
00:43:14,361 --> 00:43:17,001
and we can just go through the entire thing

446
00:43:17,001 --> 00:43:19,201
and see how much of it we understand to begin with.

447
00:43:21,341 --> 00:43:27,401
I'm up for that, but I was thinking more like not only the actual changes,

448
00:43:27,521 --> 00:43:31,981
but like the whole, the broader situation of it and how we interpret it.

449
00:43:31,981 --> 00:43:37,441
what is the reason that you are on the hill?

450
00:43:38,161 --> 00:43:42,961
And what, if any, reasons do you see as against it?

451
00:43:43,961 --> 00:43:46,561
Well, the dicks, pussies and assholes position,

452
00:43:47,481 --> 00:43:50,841
that's my stance, that's the hill I'm dying on.

453
00:43:50,841 --> 00:43:57,101
But I think Mechanic is right in saying that

454
00:43:57,101 --> 00:44:01,201
this doesn't require that much, much more than 10%

455
00:44:01,201 --> 00:44:04,281
for miners to just go on mining on this chain

456
00:44:04,281 --> 00:44:08,041
because they have basically nothing to lose from doing so.

457
00:44:08,181 --> 00:44:11,501
Miners are not making that much from putting spam on the chain

458
00:44:11,501 --> 00:44:12,801
as people think.

459
00:44:13,361 --> 00:44:16,481
But then, like, I think, you know, just to look at the percent

460
00:44:16,481 --> 00:44:20,341
is kind of, I mean, there are, we have to be honest and say that

461
00:44:20,341 --> 00:44:22,961
there are difference between nodes.

462
00:44:22,961 --> 00:44:27,881
You have, like, super connected, crazy big economic nodes

463
00:44:27,881 --> 00:44:35,761
and you have a pleb number 1438 that runs a node at home.

464
00:44:35,941 --> 00:44:36,981
And they are different.

465
00:44:37,141 --> 00:44:42,061
And I think definitely we will need some of these economic nodes to support it

466
00:44:42,061 --> 00:44:44,761
or we will need, BIP-110 will need.

467
00:44:45,561 --> 00:44:48,161
Slightly different opinion there.

468
00:44:48,301 --> 00:44:56,061
I think right now the node count signaling for BIP-110 is around 7.5%,

469
00:44:56,061 --> 00:45:23,801
Which is very close to 10, which is the paraphrasing here, what I think is mechanics opinion is that that's around how much we need, because then we'll just have to fold. Because we don't know whether these nodes signaling, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think I got this right, that there is no way to actually know whether a node signaling for this is an actual heavyweight economic node or not.

470
00:45:23,801 --> 00:45:31,521
you can only see that it's signaling for it or not so there's no way so you don't know how much

471
00:45:31,521 --> 00:45:39,361
how much the significance that node has when when push comes to shove in september and and so so

472
00:45:39,361 --> 00:45:45,821
right now we have basically no miners signaling for this yet then again they have up until september

473
00:45:45,821 --> 00:45:47,621
to start signaling for it.

474
00:45:47,881 --> 00:45:53,361
And if there's a 55% threshold of miners before that,

475
00:45:53,681 --> 00:45:55,401
then the soft fork will just happen.

476
00:45:56,061 --> 00:45:58,381
And if there's not consensus,

477
00:45:59,001 --> 00:46:02,661
all of the users that are willing to die on this hill

478
00:46:02,661 --> 00:46:05,661
will just reject any block

479
00:46:05,661 --> 00:46:07,661
that doesn't follow the tighter rules.

480
00:46:07,781 --> 00:46:09,241
So the incentive for the miner,

481
00:46:10,101 --> 00:46:13,881
and sure, go comment and stuff, brush your teeth first,

482
00:46:13,881 --> 00:46:19,841
But tell me why I'm an idiot and stuff and why HODL or NOT is an idiot in the comments, of course.

483
00:46:20,101 --> 00:46:27,561
But the theory is that there is no reason for them to not follow that chain because the rules are tighter.

484
00:46:28,821 --> 00:46:36,941
So every block that is compliant with BIP-110 is also compliant with the loser rules.

485
00:46:38,781 --> 00:46:40,581
You understand where I'm going with this?

486
00:46:40,581 --> 00:46:51,541
And for the miner, there is a risk of mining the blocks with the bigger op returns and stuff, because that has a risk of being rejected by the network.

487
00:46:52,381 --> 00:46:56,461
So why would they take that risk when there's not that much reward in it?

488
00:46:56,961 --> 00:47:04,341
And for that to happen, the estimate is that we need around 10% support.

489
00:47:04,461 --> 00:47:06,141
Somewhat by that.

490
00:47:06,141 --> 00:47:12,061
I mean, the thing is, even with the block size wars, there are so many interpretations of what actually happened.

491
00:47:12,381 --> 00:47:20,161
And it's very hard in a decentralized system to have any kind of objective view of what was actually going on.

492
00:47:20,221 --> 00:47:24,341
So I think it's very hard to assess the probability of this and that happening.

493
00:47:24,441 --> 00:47:29,241
And I know a lot of big names in Bitcoin have very different opinions on it.

494
00:47:29,441 --> 00:47:32,821
I don't agree with Tone V's triangle thingy.

495
00:47:33,221 --> 00:47:35,121
I think that's misguided.

496
00:47:35,121 --> 00:47:38,921
I stopped listening to Tone Waze a long time ago

497
00:47:38,921 --> 00:47:39,861
I don't

498
00:47:39,861 --> 00:47:41,781
because to me

499
00:47:41,781 --> 00:47:44,341
he is noise in my opinion

500
00:47:44,341 --> 00:47:46,461
I did

501
00:47:46,461 --> 00:47:48,421
one of his

502
00:47:48,421 --> 00:47:50,221
Knotts vs. Core series

503
00:47:50,221 --> 00:47:52,301
him and Jimmy

504
00:47:52,301 --> 00:47:54,361
interviewed me in San Salvador

505
00:47:54,361 --> 00:47:56,621
and now they've done the last one

506
00:47:56,621 --> 00:47:56,961
I think

507
00:47:56,961 --> 00:47:59,181
or Tone did one with Vortex

508
00:47:59,181 --> 00:48:01,561
after he did one with just Jimmy

509
00:48:01,561 --> 00:48:04,281
but the one with Jimmy is very interesting

510
00:48:04,281 --> 00:48:11,161
I'd recommend that one, even though, yeah, they are time-consuming to listen to these things.

511
00:48:13,221 --> 00:48:16,721
But yeah, as I said, it's hard to get a neutral position.

512
00:48:17,301 --> 00:48:25,341
What I don't like sometimes in the knots camp is this tribalism or this, if you're not for us, you're against us kind of attitude.

513
00:48:25,681 --> 00:48:26,981
I don't think that helps.

514
00:48:26,981 --> 00:48:30,721
I think that's sort of, I understand where they're coming from.

515
00:48:31,481 --> 00:48:35,621
And a lot of them are passionate and fighting for Bitcoin's soul.

516
00:48:36,341 --> 00:48:37,141
We are too.

517
00:48:37,741 --> 00:48:44,141
It's just that, like, I think there's a point to diplomacy, for sure.

518
00:48:44,841 --> 00:48:47,101
Yeah, well, I fully understand it.

519
00:48:47,181 --> 00:48:51,521
And I think it comes from, you know, it comes from a place where you really want to defend something.

520
00:48:51,521 --> 00:48:58,921
and I got my fair share of shit last 24 hours or so, 48 hours.

521
00:48:59,581 --> 00:49:02,361
But I mean, I'm taking it on the chin

522
00:49:02,361 --> 00:49:05,141
because I kind of think I deserved it a little bit

523
00:49:05,141 --> 00:49:09,781
and for the flip-flopping and like my lack of wisdom

524
00:49:09,781 --> 00:49:11,781
in jumping to something.

525
00:49:11,961 --> 00:49:16,881
But I do understand it and I do understand the disappointment

526
00:49:16,881 --> 00:49:20,561
when you think this is, it is a really, really important fight.

527
00:49:20,561 --> 00:49:26,641
But if you think someone like, or if you even suspect that someone has, and that's kind

528
00:49:26,641 --> 00:49:33,401
of the problem here that it's making the jump to thinking someone is compromised happens

529
00:49:33,401 --> 00:49:40,421
a little bit too fast for some people, I think, which is unfortunate, but it's also understandable,

530
00:49:40,421 --> 00:49:45,481
especially in the world we live in today with all the fucking crazy shit that is coming

531
00:49:45,481 --> 00:49:46,481
out, you know?

532
00:49:46,481 --> 00:49:51,201
Do you want me to just quickly go through my...

533
00:49:51,201 --> 00:49:56,781
Just one more point on the diplomacy thing before I forget it, ADD brain.

534
00:49:56,781 --> 00:50:06,921
But that is this, I think you can draw a line between two extremes, like the extreme cypherpunk ethos Bitcoiner.

535
00:50:07,641 --> 00:50:16,081
And on the opposite side of there, you have David Bailey, a Bitcoiner who thinks adoption is everything.

536
00:50:16,481 --> 00:50:22,481
And it doesn't matter who the fuck you steamroll over in the way to adoption.

537
00:50:22,881 --> 00:50:29,001
I mean, I think if David Bailey could earn money on the adoption going down, he would be against.

538
00:50:29,301 --> 00:50:29,541
Yeah, yeah.

539
00:50:29,621 --> 00:50:31,401
So maybe, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

540
00:50:31,761 --> 00:50:32,721
He's a bad example.

541
00:50:32,721 --> 00:50:39,121
But say someone who just wants Bitcoin to be adopted by as many people as possible, by all means necessary.

542
00:50:39,121 --> 00:50:52,881
I think that extreme adoption thing is counterproductive because if someone tries shitcoins for one cycle, it will take them another decade before they can figure out the difference between Bitcoin and shitcoins.

543
00:50:53,081 --> 00:51:02,121
And therefore, like these confusing conferences and articles written about that, they are just they're not adding to real adoption.

544
00:51:02,121 --> 00:51:04,381
I mean, paper Bitcoin is not Bitcoin.

545
00:51:04,681 --> 00:51:08,901
Like more ETFs adopting Bitcoin is not really more adoption of Bitcoin.

546
00:51:08,901 --> 00:51:10,921
it's more adoption of paper Bitcoin.

547
00:51:11,421 --> 00:51:12,881
Maybe it's even an adoption.

548
00:51:13,521 --> 00:51:15,441
Yeah, but at the same time,

549
00:51:15,561 --> 00:51:19,521
if you have too far on the other side of the extreme

550
00:51:19,521 --> 00:51:21,881
that it's just this fringe,

551
00:51:22,061 --> 00:51:27,861
hate everyone else in society type of super cypherpunk ethos person,

552
00:51:28,261 --> 00:51:30,641
then you get no adoption and we can play around.

553
00:51:30,641 --> 00:51:32,461
And that doesn't work either

554
00:51:32,461 --> 00:51:36,301
if we're going to take on the central banks at some point.

555
00:51:36,301 --> 00:51:43,521
so i think there's a balance to be struck there um yeah and it's very hard to know where where the

556
00:51:43,521 --> 00:51:52,261
appropriate stances and where where you yeah for sure so so we can only do our best in you know

557
00:51:52,261 --> 00:51:59,941
trying to navigate this and and uh i mean that's what i've been doing i just made the mistake

558
00:51:59,941 --> 00:52:08,041
of being premature. It turned out I didn't think I was premature, but now I'm gonna like

559
00:52:08,041 --> 00:52:16,061
make damn sure that I don't take any firm side unless or until I am sure of it. Because

560
00:52:16,061 --> 00:52:22,501
as I tried to get across, it's not like I look at BIP-110 as anything resembling, you

561
00:52:22,501 --> 00:52:32,761
know, bad fate or attack or I applaud it. And I applaud, you know, anyone who wants to fight for

562
00:52:32,761 --> 00:52:39,641
Bitcoin. You were just in support prematurely in full support of it. All right. Correct. So yeah,

563
00:52:39,781 --> 00:52:46,181
let's go through it. Yeah. And it's not a long list or anything like that. And maybe it's not

564
00:52:46,181 --> 00:52:50,881
even exhaustive for what I'm thinking, but it's what I just jotted down before we got on this call.

565
00:52:50,881 --> 00:53:01,301
And if I first do the pro BIP110 things, on top, I just wrote principles in big letters,

566
00:53:01,301 --> 00:53:06,621
because that's like the real big deal for me. Because I really believe that if you start

567
00:53:06,621 --> 00:53:12,761
compromising on principles with technical hand-waving and huge word salads and saying

568
00:53:12,761 --> 00:53:18,541
everyone who doesn't understand this is a non-technical idiot, that's like a surefire

569
00:53:18,541 --> 00:53:23,261
way that Bitcoin is going to be Ethereum and worse down the road.

570
00:53:23,261 --> 00:53:30,261
So that is like 100% something that made me want to support BIP110.

571
00:53:30,261 --> 00:53:34,941
Bitcoin is money and spam is not money.

572
00:53:34,941 --> 00:53:37,361
I love the thought of rugging these spammers.

573
00:53:37,361 --> 00:53:46,601
I'm so fucking tired of all these lying grifters who misrepresent things and try to basically

574
00:53:46,601 --> 00:53:54,601
harm Bitcoin to personally enrich themselves. The fact that's throughout, like the flags around the

575
00:53:54,601 --> 00:54:02,041
whole Citria launch and the timing and all of that, you know, how many red flags? It's so bad.

576
00:54:02,761 --> 00:54:10,441
Yeah. And all the worst people are pro this thing. Yeah. And you know, who runs Bitcoin?

577
00:54:10,441 --> 00:54:18,841
Obviously, if Bitcoin is run by ivory tower developers and miners, then Bitcoin is already

578
00:54:18,841 --> 00:54:27,161
walking dead thing. Node runners have to count here. That's for sure. I've seen bad faith arguments

579
00:54:27,161 --> 00:54:35,081
from the anti-Bip 110 side that alone makes me sympathetic to the Bip 110 side.

580
00:54:35,081 --> 00:54:45,521
for example this this like funding around loss of funds which is a non non-factor as far as i now

581
00:54:45,521 --> 00:54:54,321
know for basically everyone if you're not like some mad professor that made an insane multi-sig

582
00:54:54,321 --> 00:55:00,181
custom multi-sig setup with time locks and god knows what else so basically only if you

583
00:55:00,181 --> 00:55:02,041
Luke Dasher, you're at risk.

584
00:55:02,281 --> 00:55:07,141
Maybe Luke Dasher is taking an even bigger one for the team by risking his funds here.

585
00:55:07,141 --> 00:55:07,581
Yeah.

586
00:55:08,261 --> 00:55:13,581
Technical hand-waving, like just observing the woke-ification of core.

587
00:55:13,681 --> 00:55:17,101
And I'm saying it out loud, the woke-ification of core.

588
00:55:17,601 --> 00:55:27,101
Like what the fuck is when woke politics and DEI enters the height, the pinnacle of Bitcoin development.

589
00:55:27,341 --> 00:55:27,941
What the fuck?

590
00:55:28,821 --> 00:55:29,021
Yeah.

591
00:55:29,021 --> 00:55:33,041
This is the dick's pussies and assholes argument all over again.

592
00:55:33,068 --> 00:55:49,568
And then the against BIP-110, I don't like this premise that this has to happen now or never and Bitcoin is dead the moment, for example, a CSAM picture lands on the blockchain.

593
00:55:49,788 --> 00:55:51,888
I don't think it's that clear cut at all.

594
00:55:52,288 --> 00:55:56,888
It's disgusting and fucked up, but it's not that clear cut.

595
00:55:57,888 --> 00:55:59,228
Yeah, I agree with that.

596
00:55:59,228 --> 00:56:11,268
The reason, some justification for that position is that I do not believe judges to be rational people when it comes to technicalities in computer thingies.

597
00:56:11,608 --> 00:56:15,288
Exactly. So they could already find some premise.

598
00:56:16,368 --> 00:56:21,148
Then they're not going to care if Bitcoin officially supports this or not.

599
00:56:21,248 --> 00:56:23,828
And like, I don't buy that specific argument.

600
00:56:24,488 --> 00:56:28,048
No, it's just a disgusting thing to support it and standardize it.

601
00:56:28,048 --> 00:56:36,648
Yeah, yeah. I don't think arbitrary data has a place in Bitcoin. I don't know if I want

602
00:56:36,648 --> 00:56:43,808
op return to exist at all, because I don't know why you would need to put other data into Bitcoin

603
00:56:43,808 --> 00:56:49,848
at all. I think Pierre Ocard was pro that position too, just remove the entire thing.

604
00:56:49,848 --> 00:56:50,908
Just remove it, yeah.

605
00:56:50,908 --> 00:56:52,928
It was put there in the first place.

606
00:56:53,528 --> 00:56:59,688
It's kind of like the big increase because it was like, okay, you want to at least do it here.

607
00:56:59,928 --> 00:57:02,708
It's always been at least do it here because it's less harmful.

608
00:57:02,948 --> 00:57:04,388
Yeah, you want to scam a little bit?

609
00:57:04,508 --> 00:57:05,928
Okay, you can scam a little bit here.

610
00:57:07,088 --> 00:57:08,168
Yeah, but no.

611
00:57:08,948 --> 00:57:09,168
No.

612
00:57:09,308 --> 00:57:09,448
I mean.

613
00:57:10,448 --> 00:57:11,688
Yeah, to continue then.

614
00:57:12,108 --> 00:57:12,528
Yeah, sure.

615
00:57:12,968 --> 00:57:13,848
Also, yeah.

616
00:57:13,928 --> 00:57:17,788
So I think the spam urgency is in the same boat.

617
00:57:17,788 --> 00:57:28,148
I did sync up a node, a bit 110 node like five days ago, and it took less than 30 hours on a

618
00:57:28,148 --> 00:57:34,028
five-year-old laptop. It had an SSD, that's crucial here, and it had 16 gigabytes of RAM.

619
00:57:34,028 --> 00:57:43,128
But as of now, the spam topic, it's not like in one or two or three years, spam has ruined Bitcoin,

620
00:57:43,128 --> 00:57:49,568
in my opinion. It hasn't ruined initial block download in three years or four years. Down the

621
00:57:49,568 --> 00:57:57,048
road, like in 20 years, maybe, I don't know. Okay. Yeah. If I may, I have a difference of

622
00:57:57,048 --> 00:58:03,288
opinion here because it's the foreverness of it. If we have to store it forever, like then it's

623
00:58:03,288 --> 00:58:09,608
crucial that we fight it off as much as we can. Yeah, but if Bitcoin is going to live for 500

624
00:58:09,608 --> 00:58:19,488
years what difference is it like uh life or death if we stop it the year uh 14 15 16 or 17

625
00:58:19,488 --> 00:58:27,148
i i think there is because i think there are second order effects that are very hard to see here

626
00:58:27,148 --> 00:58:35,888
if i i think there is an urgency in the sense that if we don't show uh at the early stages that no you

627
00:58:35,888 --> 00:58:40,948
cannot fucking take this over no we are we are going to be resilient we're going to be resistant

628
00:58:40,948 --> 00:58:45,908
then you're sending a signal that will lead to worse things it's a slippery slope argument

629
00:58:45,908 --> 00:58:53,108
and i think bitcoin has shown that in the past and that we're it's not continuing to show that

630
00:58:53,108 --> 00:59:01,228
kind of resilience yeah to me yeah makes sense uh somewhat i i also i mean i think the longer

631
00:59:01,228 --> 00:59:06,808
you tolerate something, the harder it is to turn it around also because every day of tolerance

632
00:59:06,808 --> 00:59:12,988
brings strength to the status quo, so to say. Yes. And it also brings more vested interests

633
00:59:12,988 --> 00:59:21,388
in these things like Citria, for instance, that shouldn't exist. But still, I oppose the narrative

634
00:59:21,388 --> 00:59:27,548
that this is now or never. It could be in hindsight that this was the time because this has already

635
00:59:27,548 --> 00:59:34,188
gathered momentum. And that matters. How easy would it be to even come where we are now in

636
00:59:34,188 --> 00:59:40,188
opposition to the directional core? Probably really hard. Okay. I think this is where you

637
00:59:40,188 --> 00:59:46,988
and I differ a bit because I think that that initial momentum, this may be the only opportunity

638
00:59:46,988 --> 00:59:51,068
we get. But that's what I said, Knut. So then we don't differ. Then you misunderstood me.

639
00:59:51,068 --> 00:59:55,948
Okay. Okay. Sorry. But yeah. So what's the counter argument? Like I thought you were

640
00:59:55,948 --> 01:00:02,828
making a counter argument this is against this is like my argument for for the bit.

641
01:00:02,828 --> 01:00:13,628
No it is actually against it because I am saying that I'm just steel manning my own argument or like

642
01:00:13,628 --> 01:00:20,828
devil's advocating it like maybe this is the chance you know but I'm still saying that the

643
01:00:20,828 --> 01:00:26,028
absolute conviction that it's now or never is not something we know. It could be.

644
01:00:27,228 --> 01:00:33,148
There's a Ben Affleck Batman quote here. So like if there's a slightest chance that

645
01:00:33,148 --> 01:00:39,308
the Superman may destroy humanity, then we have to take it as an absolute certainty.

646
01:00:39,308 --> 01:00:43,228
Like this. Yeah, that would make sense if there was no chance of doing harm

647
01:00:43,228 --> 01:00:50,588
with the action you chose to pursue. Yeah, fair enough. But yeah, so that's that.

648
01:00:50,828 --> 01:01:01,348
And then the fact that there is a theoretical chance and probably a real reality that some

649
01:01:01,348 --> 01:01:06,848
coins would be unspendable under BIP110.

650
01:01:06,848 --> 01:01:12,428
Some UTXOs would just be locked.

651
01:01:12,428 --> 01:01:20,228
And that is an argument that has been fielded to me very passionately by people against

652
01:01:20,228 --> 01:01:30,608
And I can't just completely dismiss that argument because they made the setup that was valid

653
01:01:30,608 --> 01:01:32,608
within the Bitcoin rules when they did it.

654
01:01:32,608 --> 01:01:40,548
And a change that would permanently make those funds lost is problematic.

655
01:01:40,548 --> 01:01:42,388
It's setting a very dangerous precedent.

656
01:01:42,388 --> 01:01:44,188
I can agree to that.

657
01:01:44,188 --> 01:01:48,768
However, I think that as I mentioned before, I think there's a fuck around and find out

658
01:01:48,768 --> 01:01:49,768
scale here.

659
01:01:49,768 --> 01:01:56,028
If you just use Bitcoin as intended, as money, then your coins are at no risk.

660
01:01:56,208 --> 01:01:59,948
They're only at risk if you try to fiddle around with these BitVM things.

661
01:02:00,228 --> 01:02:02,828
Maybe I'm pulling this out of my ass.

662
01:02:02,828 --> 01:02:12,828
But if you're using advanced shit, the more fringe things you're doing with Bitcoin, the more your coins are at risk.

663
01:02:12,948 --> 01:02:14,128
That was always true.

664
01:02:14,208 --> 01:02:15,428
To me, that was always true.

665
01:02:15,428 --> 01:02:19,828
But my argument would be that you cannot own a Bitcoin.

666
01:02:20,008 --> 01:02:30,768
Like if you go deep into this, the only reason that I can act as if I owned my Bitcoin is that A, I find it improbable that someone else has access to the same private key.

667
01:02:30,768 --> 01:02:47,048
and B, that I find it improbable that the protocol rules will change to such an extent that my coins will be at risk of not being accessible to me anymore.

668
01:02:47,548 --> 01:02:59,728
And if those two are true, which I think they are, then the more complicated shit you were trying to do with it, the more at risk your coins were.

669
01:02:59,728 --> 01:03:01,208
That was always true to me.

670
01:03:01,728 --> 01:03:13,208
Yeah, but as a fund owner, as a Bitcoin hodler, you are not necessarily the one who has engineered this way of storing your Bitcoins.

671
01:03:13,688 --> 01:03:23,348
That can have been done by some expert that presented a whole other narrative to you as the owner of the Bitcoin, that this is possible.

672
01:03:23,468 --> 01:03:24,568
This is the rules of Bitcoin.

673
01:03:25,228 --> 01:03:27,508
This is a really good way to store your Bitcoin.

674
01:03:27,508 --> 01:03:30,668
But the responsibility is still yours.

675
01:03:30,788 --> 01:03:33,168
That's the beauty of the system, that you are responsible.

676
01:03:33,808 --> 01:03:41,368
And if you have the I'm with stupid t-shirt on instead of the I'm responsible t-shirt on, you are fucking around and you will eventually find out.

677
01:03:41,668 --> 01:03:43,048
That's my argument.

678
01:03:43,388 --> 01:03:44,688
I think it's fair.

679
01:03:45,168 --> 01:03:50,068
And I'm just trying to give the points that has given me pause.

680
01:03:50,068 --> 01:04:03,808
Because if a person came to me saying that this is my setup, and as you see, they are stored with a time lock and 600 key multisig, and I'm losing everything if this activates.

681
01:04:04,128 --> 01:04:08,568
I mean, it's hard for me to just say, yeah, well, you stupid fuck, you shouldn't have done that.

682
01:04:08,648 --> 01:04:14,788
Because I do understand some of the argument on the other side too.

683
01:04:15,008 --> 01:04:15,448
That's all.

684
01:04:16,228 --> 01:04:18,228
So there's that.

685
01:04:18,228 --> 01:04:30,188
Well, I would say that if, just to do a final rebuttal here, is that if BIP1.10 does that, it will not go through because it's too stupid.

686
01:04:30,468 --> 01:04:32,148
Then people will resist it.

687
01:04:32,448 --> 01:04:40,728
Bitcoin already has an internal mechanism to prevent that from happening because it won't get the support it needs if that was the case.

688
01:04:41,428 --> 01:04:44,228
I think there's a circular argument there somewhere.

689
01:04:44,228 --> 01:04:48,508
And I'm basing that on that I don't really own my Bitcoin.

690
01:04:48,708 --> 01:04:50,008
I act as if I do.

691
01:04:51,088 --> 01:04:56,968
But can we agree that that would be the first time in Bitcoin history that some person lost

692
01:04:56,968 --> 01:05:01,288
Bitcoin after having stored them within consensus rules at the time?

693
01:05:01,808 --> 01:05:09,048
I don't think that's actually correct because I think the inflation bug can be framed as

694
01:05:09,048 --> 01:05:09,348
that.

695
01:05:09,348 --> 01:05:14,568
or something back in the past where the rules were changed.

696
01:05:14,568 --> 01:05:20,948
Like, I'm not, like, here also, I should do my homework more,

697
01:05:21,068 --> 01:05:23,568
but I think that some of the Satoshi Dice stuff,

698
01:05:23,748 --> 01:05:29,888
like, that prevented a, maybe not a certain way of storing Bitcoin,

699
01:05:30,068 --> 01:05:35,488
but it definitely prevented a quote-unquote use case

700
01:05:35,488 --> 01:05:43,748
So you can fuck up someone's business model that works on Bitcoin right now because of what the consensus rules are by tightening the rules.

701
01:05:44,308 --> 01:05:46,848
My point is that that was always the case.

702
01:05:47,268 --> 01:05:56,728
And it doesn't really matter if that involves freezing, you know, sub-thousand set UTXOs or not.

703
01:05:57,848 --> 01:06:02,088
Or fucking up some NFT salesman's business model.

704
01:06:02,088 --> 01:06:08,288
The point of this whole fork is to make it costlier to abuse the network.

705
01:06:10,148 --> 01:06:11,228
Which I agree with.

706
01:06:11,748 --> 01:06:15,608
So there's like, if you want to make an omelet, you have to break some eggs kind of argument.

707
01:06:16,148 --> 01:06:16,348
Yeah.

708
01:06:16,628 --> 01:06:22,648
And you have to keep in mind that I just ran through a whole list of ProBip 110 angles as well.

709
01:06:22,648 --> 01:06:31,928
So this is, you know, to try to explain what is still giving me some pause to go and wanting to pick up my sword and shield and die on the hill.

710
01:06:32,088 --> 01:06:33,088
Okay.

711
01:06:33,088 --> 01:06:34,088
Yeah.

712
01:06:34,088 --> 01:06:42,648
And the last thing I think, which is something I basically need to understand better is the

713
01:06:42,648 --> 01:06:46,268
whole governance aspect of it.

714
01:06:46,268 --> 01:06:49,128
And that includes code quality.

715
01:06:49,128 --> 01:06:53,988
There was a bug recently, which is, I mean, Core V30 had a bug, right?

716
01:06:53,988 --> 01:06:55,268
So it's not like that.

717
01:06:55,268 --> 01:06:56,268
Quite a serious one.

718
01:06:56,268 --> 01:06:57,268
Yeah.

719
01:06:57,268 --> 01:07:07,188
Which is both, you know, argument for and against because it shows that you can still have a bug in very broadly reviewed code.

720
01:07:08,708 --> 01:07:12,148
And you can have a bug in code that is not reviewed that much.

721
01:07:12,728 --> 01:07:19,328
So it's like the code quality aspect and the whole aspect of what happens after the year is over.

722
01:07:19,448 --> 01:07:22,348
Because this change is temporary, right? For a year.

723
01:07:22,348 --> 01:07:25,248
Yeah, and that year is not set in stone either.

724
01:07:25,248 --> 01:07:27,668
It can be revoked at any point.

725
01:07:27,908 --> 01:07:29,248
Like that's the fail safe.

726
01:07:29,568 --> 01:07:31,388
By the network, I guess, by the consensus.

727
01:07:32,168 --> 01:07:37,148
Like, again, I should have done my homework better, but it's not like a forever thing.

728
01:07:37,848 --> 01:07:47,188
No, it's just that if we open the door to like just a myriad of just one consensus fight after the other,

729
01:07:47,428 --> 01:07:51,908
and all of them will obviously be controversial and have infighting.

730
01:07:51,908 --> 01:07:58,808
And it's like, I would probably, I mean, I'm opening, I'm very open to just me not having

731
01:07:58,808 --> 01:08:04,608
understood the wisdom of this temporary thing, which I hope to learn more about.

732
01:08:04,608 --> 01:08:10,968
But yeah, it just doesn't vibe with my wish to kind of like, because this is a very exhausting

733
01:08:10,968 --> 01:08:13,448
and damaging fight for Bitcoin.

734
01:08:13,448 --> 01:08:17,688
So if we're just like kicking the can one year and we will have the same fight in one

735
01:08:17,688 --> 01:08:20,528
year, I think that's not good.

736
01:08:20,528 --> 01:08:22,808
But I don't think that's the point of the various ability.

737
01:08:22,968 --> 01:08:24,708
Like the whole point of the fork is like,

738
01:08:24,788 --> 01:08:27,708
it's like hitting the developers on the nose

739
01:08:27,708 --> 01:08:30,828
and telling them that guys, you are not in charge.

740
01:08:30,928 --> 01:08:33,528
We are like, do as we say,

741
01:08:33,648 --> 01:08:35,588
or we will have to do things like this.

742
01:08:36,208 --> 01:08:37,608
Which is super cool.

743
01:08:37,968 --> 01:08:40,608
But what still, what will we do after the year?

744
01:08:40,608 --> 01:08:45,768
How will we form the consensus going forward from there?

745
01:08:45,768 --> 01:08:52,328
and who will be the leaders and the people writing this code basically?

746
01:08:52,568 --> 01:08:55,388
Will it be Luke and Mechanic and Dayton?

747
01:08:56,328 --> 01:08:58,568
Well, I don't think that's how it works.

748
01:08:58,668 --> 01:09:00,908
I don't think you're a Bitcoin core developer

749
01:09:00,908 --> 01:09:08,148
if you're not aware of how the system may change in ways that you don't approve of.

750
01:09:08,528 --> 01:09:09,748
That was always true.

751
01:09:09,748 --> 01:09:13,948
I don't think core maintainers are going to quit Bitcoin

752
01:09:13,948 --> 01:09:20,368
because there's a soft fork that they don't particularly like that is being implemented.

753
01:09:20,368 --> 01:09:33,815
I don think that the reason why you And I think Jimmy Song made this point on on tone show as well quite eloquently like like that that not how developers work like you don devote your life to a project like this

754
01:09:33,815 --> 01:09:41,375
if you don't like agree to uh the nature of the project and the nature of the project is that this

755
01:09:41,375 --> 01:09:46,295
was always the case the users could always go against the developers that's that's not new

756
01:09:46,295 --> 01:09:48,275
they were aware of that all the time

757
01:09:48,275 --> 01:09:50,115
and if they weren't aware

758
01:09:50,115 --> 01:09:52,435
of that, should they really have been there in the first

759
01:09:52,435 --> 01:09:54,335
place? Gloria

760
01:09:54,335 --> 01:09:56,415
Schauss certainly didn't seem to be

761
01:09:56,415 --> 01:09:58,355
aware of it. No, but she shouldn't

762
01:09:58,355 --> 01:10:00,155
have been there in the first place. I don't think so.

763
01:10:00,295 --> 01:10:02,295
Which has nothing to do with her gender

764
01:10:02,295 --> 01:10:04,395
or skin color. It has to do with her

765
01:10:04,395 --> 01:10:05,735
having these fucking

766
01:10:05,735 --> 01:10:08,935
anti-pleb

767
01:10:08,935 --> 01:10:10,115
opinions. Yeah, even

768
01:10:10,115 --> 01:10:12,075
implying that gender

769
01:10:12,075 --> 01:10:14,295
or skin color or anything

770
01:10:14,295 --> 01:10:16,135
is a factor, is

771
01:10:16,135 --> 01:10:25,355
bad faith yes and and all of those dey narratives are a side effect of the state owning money

772
01:10:25,355 --> 01:10:31,475
production that might be hard for people to see but politicians have too much power because of

773
01:10:31,475 --> 01:10:39,415
money printing and therefore we get crazy fucking clown world things like dey yeah uh and if we if

774
01:10:39,415 --> 01:10:43,635
we didn't have that we'd have a functioning meritocracy when no one gave a fuck about your

775
01:10:43,635 --> 01:10:45,775
sexual preference or if you were a devout

776
01:10:45,775 --> 01:10:47,295
Catholic or if you were

777
01:10:47,295 --> 01:10:49,635
whatever and you were

778
01:10:49,635 --> 01:10:51,395
it was completely based on

779
01:10:51,395 --> 01:10:52,935
merit and that's what

780
01:10:52,935 --> 01:10:55,515
every single Bitcoiner

781
01:10:55,515 --> 01:10:56,995
I know wants

782
01:10:56,995 --> 01:10:59,535
Bitcoin to be a meritocracy

783
01:10:59,535 --> 01:11:01,095
and nothing else. Exactly.

784
01:11:02,615 --> 01:11:02,835
Yeah.

785
01:11:04,335 --> 01:11:05,635
I agree and I think

786
01:11:05,635 --> 01:11:07,615
maybe I shall repeat because I'm

787
01:11:07,615 --> 01:11:09,535
not sure if I've said it out loud

788
01:11:09,535 --> 01:11:11,215
in this talk. I've said it

789
01:11:11,215 --> 01:11:13,515
to exhaustion on X that

790
01:11:13,515 --> 01:11:22,295
In my opinion, CORE carries the whole responsibility for the situation we are in right now.

791
01:11:22,695 --> 01:11:32,255
They caused this response by extremely arrogant, irresponsible, and reckless behavior in uncapping

792
01:11:32,255 --> 01:11:36,195
up return in the face of huge controversy.

793
01:11:37,135 --> 01:11:37,235
Yeah.

794
01:11:38,195 --> 01:11:39,575
100%.

795
01:11:39,575 --> 01:11:40,155
Yeah.

796
01:11:40,155 --> 01:11:49,735
And that's like another thing when I see them rejecting that, like they can't even accept that fact, then what the fuck?

797
01:11:50,735 --> 01:11:56,015
This is why I want a response to this.

798
01:11:56,695 --> 01:11:59,755
I want to support something that confronts it.

799
01:12:00,135 --> 01:12:06,495
And yeah, as we've been through, it's just that, you know, I feel like I was premature.

800
01:12:06,495 --> 01:12:13,235
if you want to find local bitcoin communities other bitcoiners bitcoin merchants and bitcoin

801
01:12:13,235 --> 01:12:18,775
events in your area there's no better way to do that than through the orange pill app wait a minute

802
01:12:18,775 --> 01:12:24,695
it's not the orange pill app anymore it's club orange club orange is an omni app that includes

803
01:12:24,695 --> 01:12:31,575
a lot of features including a list of events a wallet where you can send and receive sats over

804
01:12:31,575 --> 01:12:36,995
the Lightning Network. You can even geosap areas so you can send sats to a whole bunch of people in

805
01:12:36,995 --> 01:12:42,215
one single area. You can also tap sap while you're chatting to someone, which is a new feature that I

806
01:12:42,215 --> 01:12:47,715
don't believe exists anywhere else. Overall, a fantastic app for connecting Bitcoiners all around

807
01:12:47,715 --> 01:12:53,575
the world. So go to cluborange.org and sign up today. You won't regret it. It's not just a gay

808
01:12:53,575 --> 01:13:00,895
dating app. It's everything else too. You can use it. Forget about that. Go and sign up. Club Orange.

809
01:13:01,575 --> 01:13:06,255
If you want to really secure your Bitcoin, you should check out the Bitcoin Advisor.

810
01:13:06,655 --> 01:13:11,395
They have never lost a single set and they take care of your stack together with you.

811
01:13:11,595 --> 01:13:12,695
They can't use your stack.

812
01:13:12,815 --> 01:13:13,435
That's impossible.

813
01:13:13,875 --> 01:13:16,055
But they can help you with inheritance planning.

814
01:13:16,175 --> 01:13:18,195
They can help you huddle the Bitcoin long term.

815
01:13:18,455 --> 01:13:22,035
So go to thebitcoinadvisor.com to find out more and brush your teeth.

816
01:13:22,775 --> 01:13:27,735
So what's the best counter argument to Bit110?

817
01:13:27,735 --> 01:13:31,655
and what's your strongest reason for pulling out your support?

818
01:13:31,955 --> 01:13:34,435
Like, what is the crux of it?

819
01:13:34,755 --> 01:13:37,935
Is it just, hang on a minute, I'll need to do my homework?

820
01:13:38,835 --> 01:13:43,255
Yeah, I think it's the sum of doubts that, you know,

821
01:13:43,315 --> 01:13:46,635
some of them were already there all the way.

822
01:13:46,635 --> 01:13:50,315
As I posted about while supporting it,

823
01:13:50,395 --> 01:13:54,635
like I am not sure if BIP-110 is the best solution,

824
01:13:54,635 --> 01:14:01,915
But I still supported it because I was so sure that core direction needs to be opposed.

825
01:14:03,595 --> 01:14:11,235
And then, you know, after talking to him, once again, Giacomo did not reach out to talk to me.

826
01:14:11,335 --> 01:14:12,595
I reached out to talk to him.

827
01:14:13,215 --> 01:14:15,035
He did not try to convince me.

828
01:14:15,515 --> 01:14:18,495
It's just that I respect his opinion a lot.

829
01:14:18,555 --> 01:14:21,635
And it gave me more doubt after talking to him.

830
01:14:21,955 --> 01:14:23,855
I'm honest about that, you know.

831
01:14:23,855 --> 01:14:35,195
Of course, you shouldn't trust anyone blindly, but reality is that me and you and a lot of other people also use the social compass in navigating.

832
01:14:35,795 --> 01:14:44,595
And we do outsource some, or at least listen to the people who have proven themselves worthy to listen to.

833
01:14:44,595 --> 01:15:01,495
And suddenly I found myself, it's not like, I mean, Giacomo, he shares all of my anger at core, basically. But he does not think BIP-110 is a responsible solution.

834
01:15:01,495 --> 01:15:09,095
so how much of that do you think is just like giacomo might be a bad example here so so like

835
01:15:09,095 --> 01:15:16,115
let's not make this personal but for for influencers in general uh or people who make a living out of

836
01:15:16,115 --> 01:15:23,295
being a voice in the bitcoin space i would say that there is an incentive of of to to stay on

837
01:15:23,295 --> 01:15:29,515
the sidelines and not not invest too much in a fight that you're not sure if you're going to win

838
01:15:29,515 --> 01:15:33,635
because you don't know what the result will be on the other side of that fight.

839
01:15:34,215 --> 01:15:37,175
So I think there's a reputational damage to be had for,

840
01:15:37,775 --> 01:15:40,835
and I think there's influences like people who speak at conferences,

841
01:15:41,215 --> 01:15:42,415
people like me.

842
01:15:44,415 --> 01:15:49,975
And to me, that was sort of more of a reason to actually signal

843
01:15:49,975 --> 01:15:55,475
that I am willing to die on this hill because the only thing that got me here

844
01:15:55,475 --> 01:15:58,575
in the first place was this principled approach to stuff.

845
01:15:58,575 --> 01:16:04,855
And as soon as I start compromising that, I become no better than anyone else.

846
01:16:05,355 --> 01:16:05,715
No, no.

847
01:16:05,935 --> 01:16:12,755
Not saying that I am better than anyone else, but I'm just saying that, yeah, I have my doubts about the actual fork as well.

848
01:16:12,835 --> 01:16:18,575
But I feel so strongly about fighting for Bitcoin's core principles.

849
01:16:18,955 --> 01:16:25,615
And to me, there's this Venn diagram of knowledge about computer networks and economic literacy.

850
01:16:25,615 --> 01:16:29,415
and ideally you want the Bitcoiners to be in the middle of that Venn diagram.

851
01:16:30,715 --> 01:16:37,175
And I feel that Core has lost the part of the economic literacy way too much.

852
01:16:37,675 --> 01:16:41,675
I think maybe some of the people trying to keep the monetary thing,

853
01:16:41,735 --> 01:16:44,415
they don't have the technical understanding required.

854
01:16:44,595 --> 01:16:46,535
I might be in that camp, sure.

855
01:16:47,115 --> 01:16:53,155
But at least I'm trying to push the economic literacy bubble

856
01:16:53,155 --> 01:16:57,955
to be bigger and more important for the discussion. Make of that what you will.

857
01:16:59,555 --> 01:17:09,635
Yeah. One thing I've observed also, which I think is, I mean, I think you're very correct that

858
01:17:09,635 --> 01:17:17,715
a lot of people are scared to pick a side here. And I don't think they become less scared when they

859
01:17:17,715 --> 01:17:26,135
see the level of backlash that comes whenever you choose a side.

860
01:17:26,135 --> 01:17:33,275
And I've managed the amazing feat of being hated by both sides in some ways right now,

861
01:17:33,275 --> 01:17:40,475
which is kind of funny, but I can assure it, it wasn't out of anything but, you know, Bitcoin

862
01:17:40,475 --> 01:17:43,015
and trying to do the right thing.

863
01:17:43,015 --> 01:17:44,795
I've seen one thing.

864
01:17:44,795 --> 01:17:46,235
I think at least I've seen it.

865
01:17:46,235 --> 01:17:50,935
I'm not going to be bombastic about it, but it really seems like that, that there is a

866
01:17:50,935 --> 01:17:57,935
cohort of people who resist and try to, you know, shut down this BIP110 thing because

867
01:17:57,935 --> 01:18:02,215
it's making noise, it's making drama, it's hurting the price.

868
01:18:02,915 --> 01:18:07,555
And that to me is like, that's not a good reason to be against BIP110.

869
01:18:07,555 --> 01:18:13,315
If you think if the only reason you're against it is because it can hurt, like drama can

870
01:18:13,315 --> 01:18:14,715
hurt the price short term.

871
01:18:14,715 --> 01:18:22,455
No, and that's like, this has been one of my key points since the whole core versus

872
01:18:22,455 --> 01:18:23,675
not debate started.

873
01:18:23,675 --> 01:18:29,095
And that is that everyone should be happy that this conflict is happening because it

874
01:18:29,095 --> 01:18:31,275
means that Bitcoiners care.

875
01:18:31,275 --> 01:18:36,335
If we were just going along with anything like bad, bad, bad, then that would be much

876
01:18:36,335 --> 01:18:37,335
more dangerous.

877
01:18:37,335 --> 01:18:38,955
It is going to be chaotic.

878
01:18:38,955 --> 01:18:41,115
It's going to be super fucking scary.

879
01:18:41,115 --> 01:18:45,075
and Bitcoin is going to be at the brink of death from certain point of views,

880
01:18:45,635 --> 01:18:46,935
that's part of the system.

881
01:18:47,075 --> 01:18:48,295
That's what we signed up for.

882
01:18:48,535 --> 01:18:49,995
It's why it's different.

883
01:18:50,175 --> 01:18:52,035
It's why it's special to me.

884
01:18:52,695 --> 01:18:55,315
Because there is no guiding light.

885
01:18:55,415 --> 01:18:59,475
There is no leader that can tell you what the correct position to have here is.

886
01:18:59,475 --> 01:19:05,195
Which is why I'm so frustrated when I see tribalism form

887
01:19:05,195 --> 01:19:08,935
and this whole, if you're not with us, you're against us attitude.

888
01:19:09,055 --> 01:19:10,675
Because I don't think that helps either.

889
01:19:11,115 --> 01:19:22,815
And, of course, this might be self-contradictory then with talking about the pros of being on the sidelines and not taking a side and that's cowardice.

890
01:19:23,415 --> 01:19:26,555
But as with all things, there's a balance to be struck.

891
01:19:27,655 --> 01:19:31,935
Absolutely. Yeah, this is a difficult topic.

892
01:19:31,935 --> 01:19:44,015
I'm going to spend a lot of time talking and reading and, you know, trying to address my, like, what is giving me, what is, like, unclear to me.

893
01:19:44,215 --> 01:19:47,475
And, yeah, I'm not going to make any rash decision for sure.

894
01:19:47,735 --> 01:19:54,955
Again, and if I ever, you know, were to support BIP110 again, which, I mean, I'm going to be honest.

895
01:19:54,955 --> 01:20:03,075
I think you need to be able to change your mind in the face of new information and new understanding.

896
01:20:03,595 --> 01:20:13,575
And once again, this just underlines the stupidity in me to be premature in supporting it.

897
01:20:13,835 --> 01:20:17,015
And I tried to explain it was because I was away for a long time.

898
01:20:17,155 --> 01:20:19,355
I came in under-informed and emotional.

899
01:20:20,135 --> 01:20:21,635
And I regret it.

900
01:20:21,635 --> 01:20:25,715
it would be so much better if i was still on the sidelines you know and just like

901
01:20:25,715 --> 01:20:33,055
kept learning and then i could like take a position but i'm gonna i'm not done with this

902
01:20:33,055 --> 01:20:40,315
discussion that's like my so so we don't really know your position yet honestly it shouldn't

903
01:20:40,315 --> 01:20:44,915
really matter to be honest you know you should make up your own mind it's like the life of brian

904
01:20:44,915 --> 01:20:55,155
we're all different yeah so it's not like i think that my opinion should matter uh a lot to anyone

905
01:20:55,155 --> 01:21:02,115
but probably the reality is that some people value my opinion too and they they they want my opinion

906
01:21:02,115 --> 01:21:09,395
and that's that's why i was it was super important for me to be honest that shit i i think i was i i

907
01:21:09,395 --> 01:21:11,435
I don't have this conviction right now.

908
01:21:11,615 --> 01:21:15,355
I have to withdraw my support right now,

909
01:21:15,695 --> 01:21:18,395
even if it was stupid as fuck and made me look like an idiot.

910
01:21:19,575 --> 01:21:21,575
So let's try a thing here.

911
01:21:21,635 --> 01:21:25,455
If I go to the website and just read off of it

912
01:21:25,455 --> 01:21:30,635
and see what our ideas are about these specific points, is that okay?

913
01:21:31,195 --> 01:21:34,915
Yeah, I think it has to be the last point on this call, though,

914
01:21:34,915 --> 01:21:38,955
because I'm going to have a date with my girlfriend.

915
01:21:39,395 --> 01:21:46,595
Okay. Yeah, I wouldn't want to fuck that up. So how it works. Simple restrictions that preserve

916
01:21:46,595 --> 01:21:52,975
all monetary use cases while limiting data abuse. So output size limits. New outputs are limited to

917
01:21:52,975 --> 01:21:59,715
34 bytes, except op return, which allows up to 83 bytes. The output size limits, that is to make

918
01:21:59,715 --> 01:22:05,055
it more expensive to put JPEGs and stuff on chain, I guess, because you have to split them up into

919
01:22:05,055 --> 01:22:08,495
the smaller part leading to bigger fees having to be paid

920
01:22:08,495 --> 01:22:13,035
because more V bytes per transaction of these things, right?

921
01:22:13,115 --> 01:22:14,255
Is that how you interpret it?

922
01:22:15,215 --> 01:22:18,495
Yeah, I mean, I also interpret it like, you know,

923
01:22:18,495 --> 01:22:24,735
putting the OPOP return limitation into consensus

924
01:22:24,735 --> 01:22:29,215
and strangling it at 83 bytes instead of 100 kilobytes.

925
01:22:30,135 --> 01:22:33,455
Yeah, that's also, yeah.

926
01:22:33,455 --> 01:22:39,195
So I think in knots, it's defaulted as the default is like 42 bytes and not 83.

927
01:22:41,175 --> 01:22:45,515
But that's the mempool policy.

928
01:22:45,715 --> 01:22:50,695
I mean, you can just do that afterwards too, I guess, whatever that.

929
01:22:51,515 --> 01:22:58,395
So data push limits, data pushes and witness elements are limited to 256 bytes maximum.

930
01:22:58,395 --> 01:23:04,395
Op push data payloads and witness stack elements exceeding 256 bytes are invalid,

931
01:23:04,395 --> 01:23:07,395
except BIP 16 redeem script.

932
01:23:07,395 --> 01:23:13,395
So I guess this is another attempt at strangling whatever comes in there as spam.

933
01:23:13,395 --> 01:23:26,482
Yeah I think already because I be perfectly honest and say that I don know anything about OP push data payloads and witness stack elements

934
01:23:26,482 --> 01:23:36,462
So that tells me that it would probably be smart to have like a layman's explanation on all of these points on this site.

935
01:23:37,182 --> 01:23:38,922
Yeah, I think so too.

936
01:23:39,022 --> 01:23:39,482
Absolutely.

937
01:23:39,482 --> 01:23:51,522
But I'm just going to assume that all of these limits are to make spamming more expensive by limiting the amount of data per transaction.

938
01:23:52,802 --> 01:23:58,502
I think that's the retard understanding of it that actually works.

939
01:23:58,502 --> 01:24:00,942
witness

940
01:24:00,942 --> 01:24:03,102
version restrictions

941
01:24:03,102 --> 01:24:05,642
only well defined

942
01:24:05,642 --> 01:24:06,842
witness versions

943
01:24:06,842 --> 01:24:09,742
v0 and taproot can be spent

944
01:24:09,742 --> 01:24:10,822
during the deployment

945
01:24:10,822 --> 01:24:12,282
now yeah

946
01:24:12,282 --> 01:24:15,802
I'm confused do you understand any of this

947
01:24:15,802 --> 01:24:17,642
does this have

948
01:24:17,642 --> 01:24:19,082
anything to do with

949
01:24:19,082 --> 01:24:21,382
with like segwit

950
01:24:21,382 --> 01:24:23,542
discount I don't know

951
01:24:23,542 --> 01:24:25,202
probably not

952
01:24:25,202 --> 01:24:26,822
so I think

953
01:24:26,822 --> 01:24:28,242
I have no idea

954
01:24:28,502 --> 01:24:36,662
Yeah, this is Hodlunot and Knut naked here admitting how much plebslop retard we actually are.

955
01:24:37,222 --> 01:24:37,482
Yes.

956
01:24:37,482 --> 01:24:38,942
I think so.

957
01:24:39,222 --> 01:24:49,142
Yeah, here is where some of these wallet developers and stuff could be irritated at this because some of their functionalities would not work anymore, right?

958
01:24:49,782 --> 01:24:56,302
But that is motivated by the bigger incentive to just fuck with Citria and the likes of it.

959
01:24:56,302 --> 01:25:02,522
yeah but but but i think the broad the broad understanding i have is that you know none of

960
01:25:02,522 --> 01:25:12,282
these restrictions uh fuck with any like popular normal use case wallets uh at all and that's very

961
01:25:12,282 --> 01:25:19,562
important to keep in mind it but it does it does fuck with the ability of mental gymnastic grifters

962
01:25:19,562 --> 01:25:26,002
to to buy different methods use bitcoin for non-monitor transactions yeah if i'm gonna

963
01:25:26,002 --> 01:25:36,402
Devil's advocate against this, that would be that it might disincentivize developers from working on new interesting features that could actually have monetary use case.

964
01:25:36,502 --> 01:25:38,922
But I don't think that's a very strong argument.

965
01:25:39,242 --> 01:25:41,062
Anyway, taproot restrictions.

966
01:25:41,302 --> 01:25:47,202
Taproot annexes large control blocks and certain opcodes are temporarily restricted.

967
01:25:47,202 --> 01:25:56,782
Yeah, I don't think anyone uses Taproot for whatever it was, for its intended uses anyway, or a very limited usage of that.

968
01:25:56,902 --> 01:25:59,922
So it's being used way more for crap.

969
01:26:00,362 --> 01:26:03,122
So I don't think that's a big concern.

970
01:26:03,642 --> 01:26:14,842
Would it be fair to say that the main result or the main innovation downstream of Taproot being merged was ordinals?

971
01:26:14,842 --> 01:26:21,782
is this conspiracy theory territory where where we think that it was actually pushed through

972
01:26:21,782 --> 01:26:28,662
because of that it was actually not intended as that by me but i certainly see that it could be

973
01:26:28,662 --> 01:26:35,942
interpreted like that yeah and and some malicious forces may have pushed it through because they

974
01:26:35,942 --> 01:26:44,522
wanted to do this shit it's uh at least we have to agree that probably we should take lessons should

975
01:26:44,522 --> 01:26:52,862
we learned after the whole taproot implementation how casually and like non-investigatively that

976
01:26:52,862 --> 01:26:59,742
was done and like how that broad consensus formed was it just because all the people we got used to

977
01:26:59,742 --> 01:27:06,862
trusting were for it i think that plus a fatigue from the block size war so so people were not

978
01:27:06,862 --> 01:27:12,642
willing to do the work and and actually reading up on what this thing actually did and as far as i

979
01:27:12,642 --> 01:27:18,382
I remember it was also sold almost like an extension of Segwit.

980
01:27:18,382 --> 01:27:32,482
And Segwit was like, you know, it became seen as, I mean, basically the fruits of winning the block size war in some way because Jihan resisted it so hard and stuff.

981
01:27:32,822 --> 01:27:38,582
And Taproot was like always like the last piece we needed to make it so much more powerful.

982
01:27:39,322 --> 01:27:39,882
Yeah.

983
01:27:40,102 --> 01:27:42,242
At least that's how I interpreted it.

984
01:27:42,642 --> 01:27:48,802
Yeah, that's how I remember it being marketed as well, whilst that might not have been entirely

985
01:27:48,802 --> 01:27:49,802
true then.

986
01:27:49,802 --> 01:27:50,802
Maybe.

987
01:27:50,802 --> 01:27:58,882
I mean, at least it seems to me like Taproot was a huge positive for people who want the

988
01:27:58,882 --> 01:28:00,402
JPEGs on Bitcoin.

989
01:28:00,402 --> 01:28:02,402
Yeah, unfortunately.

990
01:28:02,402 --> 01:28:09,022
I sometimes wonder where Bitcoin would have been today if Lightning Network was not a

991
01:28:09,022 --> 01:28:10,022
thing.

992
01:28:10,022 --> 01:28:18,442
Sure, SegWit was important for other things than just Lightning, especially the malleability thing, transaction malleability bug.

993
01:28:18,442 --> 01:28:27,222
So what would have happened if we didn't have a Lightning network, but if Bitcoin had just ossified and continued on?

994
01:28:27,322 --> 01:28:28,722
Would we have had the spam?

995
01:28:29,502 --> 01:28:32,062
Would we have had similar attacks?

996
01:28:32,222 --> 01:28:37,862
We can never know because we live in the branch of the multiverse that we happen to live in.

997
01:28:37,862 --> 01:28:41,982
and that's just true for everyone alive.

998
01:28:42,302 --> 01:28:44,422
We cannot ever know what the...

999
01:28:44,422 --> 01:28:45,882
It's Bastia's broken window,

1000
01:28:46,562 --> 01:28:50,642
or Bastia's seen and the unseen.

1001
01:28:51,142 --> 01:28:53,842
We cannot know what the other timeline would have looked like

1002
01:28:53,842 --> 01:28:56,242
because we're not in that timeline, we're in the one we're in.

1003
01:28:56,802 --> 01:28:57,002
Yeah.

1004
01:28:58,342 --> 01:29:01,502
No, it's this sliding door, sort of closing doors,

1005
01:29:02,002 --> 01:29:05,702
thought like what would happen if you managed to get on that subway

1006
01:29:05,702 --> 01:29:07,782
instead of the doors closing in front of you

1007
01:29:07,782 --> 01:29:12,322
and what would have happened if the Germans won World War II and all that shit.

1008
01:29:12,482 --> 01:29:13,362
We will never know.

1009
01:29:13,982 --> 01:29:17,282
Yeah, and if Jamie Oliver actually learned how to cook at some point.

1010
01:29:18,362 --> 01:29:18,922
We can never know.

1011
01:29:18,922 --> 01:29:22,762
Let's not get into the wildest mental gymnastics.

1012
01:29:24,582 --> 01:29:25,022
Yeah.

1013
01:29:25,642 --> 01:29:27,682
Anyway, so the common questions here,

1014
01:29:27,762 --> 01:29:31,262
maybe we should round this out by commenting on this stuff too.

1015
01:29:31,482 --> 01:29:33,142
So why is this proposal temporary?

1016
01:29:33,362 --> 01:29:36,662
The one-year deployment allows the community to evaluate the impact.

1017
01:29:36,662 --> 01:29:39,562
that's very fair, I think.

1018
01:29:39,982 --> 01:29:43,962
That's what allows you to have a bit of time

1019
01:29:43,962 --> 01:29:46,382
before you make your stance on this.

1020
01:29:46,622 --> 01:29:51,362
Like, they're giving Hodlunot time to do his homework here.

1021
01:29:53,302 --> 01:29:54,582
And me, by the way.

1022
01:29:55,002 --> 01:29:58,402
So, while developers work on a longer-term solution,

1023
01:29:58,922 --> 01:30:01,422
so it sort of implies that something else

1024
01:30:01,422 --> 01:30:04,422
will have to follow a longer-term solution.

1025
01:30:04,422 --> 01:30:06,222
with. And I think that's referring to

1026
01:30:06,222 --> 01:30:07,822
actually fixing the bugs.

1027
01:30:08,022 --> 01:30:10,382
What Luke and Mechanic calls bugs

1028
01:30:10,382 --> 01:30:11,942
anyway, or what Luke calls bugs.

1029
01:30:12,542 --> 01:30:13,842
I think they are bugs.

1030
01:30:14,202 --> 01:30:16,462
Or exploits. Exploits, I think

1031
01:30:16,462 --> 01:30:18,522
is a better word. Ordinals

1032
01:30:18,522 --> 01:30:20,242
and inscriptions and all of these are

1033
01:30:20,242 --> 01:30:21,002
exploits.

1034
01:30:21,962 --> 01:30:24,342
Can I just, devils, advocate

1035
01:30:24,342 --> 01:30:25,622
that? All right.

1036
01:30:27,142 --> 01:30:28,262
It's like, it's

1037
01:30:28,262 --> 01:30:29,942
worded as of

1038
01:30:29,942 --> 01:30:32,422
just a positive. It allows

1039
01:30:32,422 --> 01:30:34,282
the community and, you know, as the

1040
01:30:34,282 --> 01:30:38,262
The community is, as we are seeing right now, extremely polarized.

1041
01:30:38,982 --> 01:30:39,222
Yeah.

1042
01:30:39,362 --> 01:30:41,762
It allows the community to evaluate the impact.

1043
01:30:41,762 --> 01:30:42,722
No, no, no, no, no.

1044
01:30:42,782 --> 01:30:56,182
So that, to me, sounds like we're going to have an ongoing, very hostile debate going on what is this actually doing, you know?

1045
01:30:56,802 --> 01:31:02,062
And we will have one side who says, look here, it destroyed Bitcoin as we know it.

1046
01:31:02,102 --> 01:31:03,862
And the other side will know, fuck you.

1047
01:31:03,862 --> 01:31:06,282
it saved Bitcoin.

1048
01:31:06,282 --> 01:31:10,982
And this is like the thing

1049
01:31:10,982 --> 01:31:12,922
that I haven't fleshed out in my mind enough,

1050
01:31:13,022 --> 01:31:15,462
just like how will this year

1051
01:31:15,462 --> 01:31:18,262
and what happens after,

1052
01:31:18,382 --> 01:31:19,822
how will it look in practice?

1053
01:31:20,222 --> 01:31:25,342
Is it any chance of Bitcoin emerging from this

1054
01:31:25,342 --> 01:31:28,742
as one solid thing

1055
01:31:28,742 --> 01:31:31,462
that still retains the trust of the world?

1056
01:31:31,602 --> 01:31:32,302
I don't know.

1057
01:31:33,862 --> 01:31:36,542
Well, I'm optimistic about that.

1058
01:31:37,082 --> 01:31:37,202
Yeah.

1059
01:31:37,522 --> 01:31:41,622
I think it wouldn't be the case if Bitcoin hadn't had this fight.

1060
01:31:42,022 --> 01:31:48,802
Like, either everyone agrees to this and then the consensus rules are temporarily tightened.

1061
01:31:49,762 --> 01:31:51,922
Or we have a hard fork.

1062
01:31:52,022 --> 01:31:53,482
Or it's dead in the water.

1063
01:31:53,662 --> 01:31:54,142
Who knows?

1064
01:31:55,202 --> 01:31:56,242
Well, I guess we'll see.

1065
01:31:57,322 --> 01:32:00,262
There's some sort of Pascal's wager to it, too.

1066
01:32:00,262 --> 01:32:02,762
because the more you believe it will happen,

1067
01:32:02,842 --> 01:32:04,802
the higher the likelihood that it actually will.

1068
01:32:06,002 --> 01:32:06,282
Yeah.

1069
01:32:06,962 --> 01:32:09,962
So that's to take into account too.

1070
01:32:10,962 --> 01:32:12,662
The other sentence here is,

1071
01:32:12,662 --> 01:32:16,902
I can agree that this language here is kind of,

1072
01:32:16,942 --> 01:32:20,062
it's presenting this fork as something

1073
01:32:20,062 --> 01:32:22,882
that allows the community to evaluate the impact.

1074
01:32:22,982 --> 01:32:29,342
Like it's very self-promoting in the language chosen here.

1075
01:32:30,262 --> 01:32:46,862
Yeah, I could rewrite it and probably be similarly close to the truth, like something like allows the community to infight and put each other on the stake and kill each other for a year.

1076
01:32:47,902 --> 01:32:50,202
Developers work on a longer term solution.

1077
01:32:50,202 --> 01:33:00,562
Yeah, some restrictions would severely constrain future upgrades if permanent, but are acceptable for a limited time to address the immediate crisis.

1078
01:33:00,562 --> 01:33:13,882
Yeah, here I can actually be where one of my biggest concerns with BIP-110 is the same as like passports were a temporary measure at one point in time.

1079
01:33:14,202 --> 01:33:16,222
And now they're standard all over the world.

1080
01:33:16,442 --> 01:33:20,062
So you need a paper to be allowed to go abroad.

1081
01:33:20,202 --> 01:33:22,082
That was not always the case.

1082
01:33:22,482 --> 01:33:24,822
And this is my biggest concern.

1083
01:33:24,962 --> 01:33:29,922
I think that sometimes temporary things are not as temporary as we think.

1084
01:33:30,402 --> 01:33:39,322
It's like when you fix something with gaff tape and instead of properly fixing it, you

1085
01:33:39,322 --> 01:33:43,342
tend to not give a fuck about it afterwards and the temporary solution becomes the permanent

1086
01:33:43,342 --> 01:33:43,802
solution.

1087
01:33:43,802 --> 01:33:44,482
Yeah.

1088
01:33:44,482 --> 01:33:51,782
Yeah, I'll add something that would be pro Bipon or like that would make me less concerned

1089
01:33:51,782 --> 01:33:52,782
about that.

1090
01:33:52,782 --> 01:33:58,982
And that's that severely constraining future upgrades like that just sounds good to me.

1091
01:33:58,982 --> 01:34:01,042
I don't want to upgrade all that.

1092
01:34:01,042 --> 01:34:02,282
Like, what is Bitcoin?

1093
01:34:02,282 --> 01:34:05,462
Is it something that we shall always like upgrade?

1094
01:34:05,462 --> 01:34:12,362
I understand maintain and fix bugs and shit, but I don't want Bitcoin to be this innovation

1095
01:34:12,362 --> 01:34:13,362
place.

1096
01:34:13,362 --> 01:34:16,942
So there is a point where enough is enough, right?

1097
01:34:17,042 --> 01:34:18,042
That we don't need to.

1098
01:34:18,882 --> 01:34:22,102
Maintaining is one thing and fighting off future threats.

1099
01:34:22,862 --> 01:34:26,782
That's one thing, but that's not upgrading necessarily.

1100
01:34:27,362 --> 01:34:32,362
So if upgrading is, you know, quantum resistance, if that is even needed, I don't know.

1101
01:34:32,422 --> 01:34:33,682
Is that just FUD as well?

1102
01:34:33,882 --> 01:34:35,782
But that would be valid.

1103
01:34:36,902 --> 01:34:39,702
It's both FUD and not FUD at the same time.

1104
01:34:39,802 --> 01:34:40,922
Roner Schrodinger's FUD.

1105
01:34:40,922 --> 01:34:41,362
Yes.

1106
01:34:41,362 --> 01:34:46,782
Limiting taproot control blocks could complicate advanced smart contracts like BitVM.

1107
01:34:47,302 --> 01:34:49,182
I don't think this is a trade-off at all.

1108
01:34:49,282 --> 01:34:50,742
I think that's a feature, not a bug.

1109
01:34:50,882 --> 01:34:55,362
I don't want programmable money because to me, programmable money means programmable people.

1110
01:34:55,782 --> 01:34:58,962
I don't want fucking scripts like that.

1111
01:34:59,022 --> 01:35:05,222
I know that Satoshi was for having the script thing in there so that in the future,

1112
01:35:05,442 --> 01:35:08,362
Bitcoin could accommodate smart contracts and stuff.

1113
01:35:08,722 --> 01:35:10,482
But I don't necessarily like that.

1114
01:35:10,482 --> 01:35:13,242
I want Bitcoin to be as simple as possible.

1115
01:35:13,422 --> 01:35:13,882
Yeah, I agree.

1116
01:35:16,522 --> 01:35:20,062
Upgrade hooks are temporarily unavailable for other soft forks.

1117
01:35:20,302 --> 01:35:24,262
Some wallet software using op-if and tap leaves may need updates.

1118
01:35:24,642 --> 01:35:28,042
However, these are acceptable short-term trade-offs for immediate benefits.

1119
01:35:28,442 --> 01:35:31,122
Yeah, might piss off some developers on some projects

1120
01:35:31,122 --> 01:35:34,022
and might even fuck with their business models somehow.

1121
01:35:34,322 --> 01:35:37,962
Yeah, however, I think this is definitely in the fuck around and find out category.

1122
01:35:37,962 --> 01:35:42,962
Is there any risk of funds being frozen or lost?

1123
01:35:43,202 --> 01:35:48,982
In theory, yes, but this proposal goes to great pains to avoid affecting those use cases.

1124
01:35:49,502 --> 01:35:54,442
Funds are completely unaffected if they don't use Taproot, use Taproot in standard ways,

1125
01:35:54,562 --> 01:35:59,102
or can be spent via KeyPath or other expected tap leaves.

1126
01:35:59,442 --> 01:36:07,582
Additionally, UTXO created before activations are permanently exempt from the new rules.

1127
01:36:07,962 --> 01:36:09,042
Oh, that's interesting.

1128
01:36:09,582 --> 01:36:09,782
Yeah.

1129
01:36:09,782 --> 01:36:16,502
So it doesn't freeze anything, except if you create that thing now before the whole thing.

1130
01:36:17,102 --> 01:36:22,862
Yeah, I would be interested to find out if there are no exceptions to that statement

1131
01:36:22,862 --> 01:36:31,402
that basically funds UTXOs cannot be frozen, because I've heard different stories spelled

1132
01:36:31,402 --> 01:36:34,342
out, and yeah, that should be clarified.

1133
01:36:34,342 --> 01:36:41,682
It says UTXOs created before activation are permanently exempt from the new rules.

1134
01:36:42,142 --> 01:36:47,782
To me, I interpret that as you being able to move those coins after the rules are implemented.

1135
01:36:49,682 --> 01:36:57,502
Yeah, a separate two-week grace period between lock-in and activation also provides great general preparation time.

1136
01:36:58,042 --> 01:36:58,682
Yeah.

1137
01:36:58,682 --> 01:37:02,162
won't spammers just spread

1138
01:37:02,162 --> 01:37:03,602
their data over multiple fields

1139
01:37:03,602 --> 01:37:05,602
while it's impossible to fully prevent

1140
01:37:05,602 --> 01:37:21,149
steganography limiting data sizes ensures abuses and non and obfuscated requiring users to divide files into chunks of 256 bytes raises the costs in fees and effort sending a clear message

1141
01:37:21,149 --> 01:37:27,748
that data storage is unwelcome i think this is the biggest why i'm pro this thing because

1142
01:37:27,748 --> 01:37:32,568
i i do want to send that message and i do want it to become more expensive for them to

1143
01:37:32,568 --> 01:37:33,028
do that

1144
01:37:33,028 --> 01:38:01,589
I mean, even if my house, you know, theoretically can be broken into by very sophisticated thieves using advanced tooling and equipment, I still prefer that situation to opening my door wide open with a sign and like marketing that thieves can enter here.

1145
01:38:01,589 --> 01:38:08,929
it's a huge difference to me and obviously to me making it more difficult and and need

1146
01:38:08,929 --> 01:38:14,349
more complexity yeah costly everything to spam the blockchain or grift on the blockchain

1147
01:38:14,349 --> 01:38:23,808
we should do that yeah uh why limit script pipe keys to 34 bytes script pipe keys must be stored

1148
01:38:23,808 --> 01:38:32,229
indefinitely in quick access memory by all nodes. Modern usage is all 34 bytes or smaller,

1149
01:38:32,469 --> 01:38:38,248
as actual spending conditions are in the witness. Large script pubkeys enable data abuse and

1150
01:38:38,248 --> 01:38:44,229
malicious poison blocks that take a long time to validate. Yeah, I don't have anything to add to

1151
01:38:44,229 --> 01:38:52,808
that, I think. Is there a slippery slope toward banning use cases? No, these rules enshrine

1152
01:38:52,808 --> 01:38:57,089
long-standing principles of Bitcoin, this software does not restrict monetary activity,

1153
01:38:57,449 --> 01:39:02,389
only non-monetary data storage. The temporary nature reinforces a targeted intervention,

1154
01:39:02,389 --> 01:39:09,709
not a new direction. Yeah, I like that point. Even if it said, yes, it is a slippery slope

1155
01:39:09,709 --> 01:39:14,288
toward banning use cases, I would be pro it because I don't want use cases. I want there

1156
01:39:14,288 --> 01:39:21,389
to be one single use case. Yes. Yes. Yes. I don't want smart contracts.

1157
01:39:21,389 --> 01:39:32,449
like it's just a fact i want monetary transactions on bitcoin yeah uh and even even a thing like

1158
01:39:32,449 --> 01:39:39,109
time locks which i think are super cool i know that if i was to put my bitcoins in a time locked

1159
01:39:39,109 --> 01:39:45,669
in time to time lock them for x number of blocks then they are more at risk than if i could

1160
01:39:45,669 --> 01:39:50,849
interact with them during that period of course because i cannot predict the future that is a

1161
01:39:50,849 --> 01:39:56,349
fuck around use case even though it's a cool use case it's still a fuck around use case all right

1162
01:39:56,349 --> 01:40:01,209
does this solve spam completely no of course it doesn't and no one ever claimed it did by the way

1163
01:40:01,209 --> 01:40:08,489
this is the that's what yeah bad argument yeah which is which is also like something i don't like

1164
01:40:08,489 --> 01:40:16,969
with the rhetoric for from this v30 core camp that oh look we could uh we could put the whole

1165
01:40:16,969 --> 01:40:21,748
BIP-110 PDF in the blockchain under BIP-110 rules.

1166
01:40:21,989 --> 01:40:23,489
Yay, so this is pointless.

1167
01:40:23,729 --> 01:40:25,429
That's bad faith, in my opinion.

1168
01:40:26,169 --> 01:40:29,788
Yeah, the other point I want to make about the smaller,

1169
01:40:30,129 --> 01:40:32,729
won't the spammers just spread their data over multiple fields?

1170
01:40:32,969 --> 01:40:35,949
This is, I guess the devil's advocate argument there would be that

1171
01:40:35,949 --> 01:40:40,429
since there are smaller fields, they will bloat the UTX set more

1172
01:40:40,429 --> 01:40:44,008
because there will be more transactions and they will have to spam it up.

1173
01:40:44,469 --> 01:40:46,689
The point is, though, that it's costlier.

1174
01:40:46,969 --> 01:41:02,528
So I do think that that's a bad argument too, even though it could lead to more bloat, but that sort of requires all the spammers to have more money to spend on this.

1175
01:41:02,528 --> 01:41:12,568
And the risk there, I'd say, is a state-level attack where a nation state decides to kill Bitcoin, and they have a money printer.

1176
01:41:12,709 --> 01:41:20,889
So they have infinite money for at least short term before the fiat, their printing dies.

1177
01:41:20,989 --> 01:41:26,189
So they can just print and print and print and spam the chain or bloat the UTXO set.

1178
01:41:26,189 --> 01:41:32,709
however that would require a competent government which is incompatible with

1179
01:41:32,709 --> 01:41:39,028
a deep state really smart government so i'm i'm unsure there if retardation or 5d chess is the

1180
01:41:39,028 --> 01:41:51,288
biggest threat yeah does this affect the utxo set no bip 110 limits only limits the size of

1181
01:41:51,288 --> 01:41:57,548
new outfits going forward. It doesn't touch, invalidate or prune any existing UTXOs. This is

1182
01:41:57,548 --> 01:42:04,669
important. You may be thinking of the cat. Yes, the cat is the really controversial proposal.

1183
01:42:05,669 --> 01:42:12,429
And we had a lot of fun trolling people with that by saying meow on X, just threatening with a cat,

1184
01:42:12,528 --> 01:42:17,489
which is actually going to these ordinals websites and picking out these transactions

1185
01:42:17,489 --> 01:42:19,009
of just making them unspendable.

1186
01:42:20,288 --> 01:42:24,129
When was that Meow meme and when did Cat launch?

1187
01:42:24,808 --> 01:42:26,009
Yeah, I'm sorry you missed it

1188
01:42:26,009 --> 01:42:28,028
because you would have been perfect for it

1189
01:42:28,028 --> 01:42:29,209
with the helmet on.

1190
01:42:29,288 --> 01:42:31,849
That was like a couple of months back, I guess.

1191
01:42:31,849 --> 01:42:36,669
It's an idea by a developer called Claire Ostrom,

1192
01:42:36,869 --> 01:42:40,808
which is probably some kind of Nym thing.

1193
01:42:41,068 --> 01:42:43,709
And it proposed to actually go to all these sites

1194
01:42:43,709 --> 01:42:46,828
that promote selling stamps and ordinals and inscriptions

1195
01:42:46,828 --> 01:42:53,489
and targeted because all the data is there where where this nft was minted or whatever where this

1196
01:42:53,489 --> 01:42:59,828
rares the the address of this rare set and you would just go there and invalidate all of those

1197
01:42:59,828 --> 01:43:05,149
which is i love the idea as much as i hate the idea the president that sets and so on and so

1198
01:43:05,149 --> 01:43:11,989
forth but i kind of love it just to really really rug the spammers i i love that i love the i love

1199
01:43:11,989 --> 01:43:18,489
the finding out part of it, but I don't love the precedence and like basically the principle

1200
01:43:18,489 --> 01:43:19,308
of it.

1201
01:43:19,489 --> 01:43:24,308
No, and someone would actually have to code the thing first. So I think the cat is probably

1202
01:43:24,308 --> 01:43:29,808
in. That's not the topic of today. Definitely not. Does this affect the Lightning Network?

1203
01:43:30,169 --> 01:43:33,209
No, is the short answer here.

1204
01:43:33,209 --> 01:43:33,808
Yeah.

1205
01:43:33,808 --> 01:43:42,209
I'm sure there will be someone in your comments, depending on how many people watch this, but

1206
01:43:42,209 --> 01:43:47,909
that will create some type of exotic scenario where it would affect something on the Lightning

1207
01:43:47,909 --> 01:43:55,669
Network. But I mean, I trust what is said here that basically the summarized answer is no.

1208
01:43:56,228 --> 01:44:03,509
Yeah. Taproot was designed so that, why is op if restricted in Tapscript?

1209
01:44:03,509 --> 01:44:11,248
And here's a long explanation, and it's basically to, oh, this is long and complicated.

1210
01:44:13,489 --> 01:44:31,889
I have seen controversy around this op-if thing, at least, but my takeaway from what I read is that it's extremely rarely used, if at all, and that there are substitutes for it that can be implemented if BIP-110 were to activate.

1211
01:44:31,889 --> 01:44:53,709
Yeah. And as we have said before, BIP 110 is a consensus level change and not a mempool policy change. I think this is where most of the criticism is like that this is and should be a policy level thing, how much you allow or choose to allow or not allow in your mempool.

1212
01:44:53,709 --> 01:45:01,288
but I'd say that that is, yes, that was a good position to have up until Core V30,

1213
01:45:01,409 --> 01:45:02,589
which fucked that up.

1214
01:45:02,808 --> 01:45:06,748
So now that argument does no longer apply, in my view,

1215
01:45:07,068 --> 01:45:09,189
because they went against the grain there.

1216
01:45:09,288 --> 01:45:10,528
Is this optional for miners?

1217
01:45:10,808 --> 01:45:14,288
During the signaling phase, miners can choose whether to signal support.

1218
01:45:14,389 --> 01:45:20,328
If 55% signal in a retarget period, the soft fork locks in early.

1219
01:45:20,328 --> 01:45:23,288
If not, mandatory signaling kicks in before the deadline.

1220
01:45:23,709 --> 01:45:29,629
blocks that don't signal are rejected guaranteeing lock-in once activated the new rules are enforced

1221
01:45:29,629 --> 01:45:35,149
at the consensus level any block that violates them is rejected by all enforcing nodes regardless

1222
01:45:35,149 --> 01:45:42,028
of the miners preference yeah are people willing to die on this hill or not i guess we'll see um

1223
01:45:42,028 --> 01:45:55,129
Yeah. And I hope the debate kind of like continues to illuminate what it really is for me and

1224
01:45:55,129 --> 01:46:01,228
for everyone who wants to understand that, you know, the sides of it that are still like

1225
01:46:01,228 --> 01:46:09,709
contentious or under understood will be better relayed to laymen or people with less technique,

1226
01:46:09,709 --> 01:46:11,989
like plebslop people like us.

1227
01:46:13,129 --> 01:46:15,509
And I also hope that, you know, I think,

1228
01:46:15,949 --> 01:46:21,129
I like to think that our conversation today is kind of like maybe representative

1229
01:46:21,129 --> 01:46:24,828
for the level of technical understanding of a lot of Bitcoiners

1230
01:46:24,828 --> 01:46:27,369
and therefore may be useful.

1231
01:46:28,028 --> 01:46:32,149
And maybe it's useful to have more conversations like this from,

1232
01:46:32,308 --> 01:46:37,048
not necessarily from us, but from people who just like honestly,

1233
01:46:37,048 --> 01:47:00,209
Maybe the main target would be people who are worried about what Core is doing, because that's where I'm coming from. I would love to just brush this aside. Why should we even consider this? We have a great developer group in Core that we can trust, and things are great, but I don't feel like that. I really feel like Core needs to be tempered.

1234
01:47:00,209 --> 01:47:08,328
yeah i i totally agree and uh the question becomes is this the the way of doing that or

1235
01:47:08,328 --> 01:47:14,548
shall we bicker and argue until a better way comes up and this is only already gaining some momentum

1236
01:47:14,548 --> 01:47:21,709
so i'm very unsure that we'll get a second chance at this and so the same argument like i think this

1237
01:47:21,709 --> 01:47:27,989
was one of giacomo's arguments to you if i'm not mistaken that uh it has such low chances of

1238
01:47:27,989 --> 01:47:33,109
succeeding that will have a harder time the next time we try something.

1239
01:47:33,469 --> 01:47:40,469
That will burn more social capital for maybe the right reaction.

1240
01:47:41,669 --> 01:47:51,609
Yes, but the counter argument to that would be, well, Batman was not the hero Gotham wanted,

1241
01:47:51,808 --> 01:47:53,589
but it's the one they got.

1242
01:47:53,589 --> 01:47:57,189
Like, this is the thing that is on the table.

1243
01:47:57,189 --> 01:48:12,568
There's currently no other thing on the table. So maybe now that this is the thing on the table, then this is the only chance we get. And therefore we should just fucking do it. And then everyone can theorize afterwards.

1244
01:48:12,568 --> 01:48:19,949
Yeah, I think doing nothing over a long time period is 100% harmful.

1245
01:48:20,528 --> 01:48:22,528
That is harm the way I see it.

1246
01:48:23,528 --> 01:48:35,469
But I also think doing something rather drastic in haste has the potential of being harmful too.

1247
01:48:35,469 --> 01:48:43,969
it's like therefore the conviction level and like confidence in having understood

1248
01:48:43,969 --> 01:48:50,268
the aspects that are important to you know each of us wherever you stand subjectively

1249
01:48:50,268 --> 01:48:59,369
is a prerequisite before you die on the hill or before you potentially decide to die on a hill

1250
01:48:59,369 --> 01:49:26,149
Because this is important for Bitcoin. This whole conflict is very important for Bitcoin. And I don't think it's very overstated to say that this is maybe not as important as the block size war, but it does feel like a moment in time for Bitcoin where stakes are high and it really matters which side you choose.

1251
01:49:26,149 --> 01:49:34,669
yeah so so before we close this out like a final question would be what would it take to convince

1252
01:49:34,669 --> 01:49:44,808
you to signal support again for for bip 110 what would that take uh it would take for me to reflect

1253
01:49:44,808 --> 01:49:55,409
more on this and to become more uh confident in the in the points i raised against bip 110

1254
01:49:55,409 --> 01:50:07,189
10. Basically, the maybe, maybe the biggest thing is, you know, uncertainty about and everything

1255
01:50:07,189 --> 01:50:16,349
regarding governance, one year temporary activation, what happens after what like that whole dynamic

1256
01:50:16,349 --> 01:50:25,389
is is big for me. And also to have more clarity on potential for loss of funds for any users

1257
01:50:25,389 --> 01:50:31,869
Yeah, fair enough. Do you wear flip flops?

1258
01:50:31,869 --> 01:50:42,189
I did yesterday or the day before I took them off. I mean, I'll just go back to saying

1259
01:50:43,308 --> 01:50:50,028
maybe two things, you know, that I subscribe to just, you know, being open to learning always,

1260
01:50:50,028 --> 01:50:54,028
and to be open to, to change my mind.

1261
01:50:54,028 --> 01:50:56,489
And it's not like I really,

1262
01:50:56,489 --> 01:50:58,949
to the degree to which I changed my mind

1263
01:50:58,949 --> 01:51:00,548
was a conviction level.

1264
01:51:00,548 --> 01:51:03,629
As I think I've become clear in this conversation,

1265
01:51:03,629 --> 01:51:06,109
I am not like one of the people who attack

1266
01:51:06,136 --> 01:51:11,916
Bip 110 in any way. I applaud it. I applaud people who want to fight for Bitcoin and who

1267
01:51:11,916 --> 01:51:19,516
follow principles. I like to follow principles. I do that always. I try to. But I, yeah, but I'm,

1268
01:51:19,516 --> 01:51:26,356
I'm very like, I feel embarrassed for having flip-flopped on my outspoken support. And that

1269
01:51:26,356 --> 01:51:33,556
means I will have to be damn sure before I come back in support. Okay. So if we ever see you

1270
01:51:33,556 --> 01:51:42,236
support it again then that's final then i'm on the hill that's for sure all right yeah yeah uh

1271
01:51:42,236 --> 01:51:48,196
i'll close out with this uh once again here we the plebs are the dicks we're reckless arrogant

1272
01:51:48,196 --> 01:51:55,416
stupid dicks and the developers are pussies and the spammers are assholes pussies don't like dicks

1273
01:51:55,416 --> 01:52:00,076
because pussies get fucked by dicks but dicks also fuck us fuck assholes

1274
01:52:00,076 --> 01:52:04,556
assholes who just want to spam on everything

1275
01:52:04,556 --> 01:52:08,536
pussies make think that they can deal with assholes in their way

1276
01:52:08,536 --> 01:52:09,836
by increasing up return

1277
01:52:09,836 --> 01:52:12,116
but the only thing that can fuck an asshole

1278
01:52:12,116 --> 01:52:14,036
is a dick with some balls

1279
01:52:14,036 --> 01:52:15,616
yeah

1280
01:52:15,616 --> 01:52:16,656
with that

1281
01:52:16,656 --> 01:52:18,976
strong words Knut

1282
01:52:18,976 --> 01:52:21,816
pick a side or don't

1283
01:52:21,816 --> 01:52:24,276
and remember to brush your teeth

1284
01:52:24,276 --> 01:52:36,461
and like comment subscribe share this thing call us idiots call us wise old bearded men You not bearded You have a mustache or an attempted one

1285
01:52:37,101 --> 01:52:39,501
And I hope to see you again soon, man.

1286
01:52:39,741 --> 01:52:42,661
We see each other way to sell them in the flesh.

1287
01:52:43,221 --> 01:52:45,781
And we have to find an island somewhere.

1288
01:52:46,601 --> 01:52:48,261
We can hang out with our kids.

1289
01:52:48,261 --> 01:52:50,221
Maybe we can do Eurasia.

1290
01:52:52,021 --> 01:52:52,641
Yeah, who knows?

1291
01:52:52,721 --> 01:52:54,221
It's always a pleasure anyway.

1292
01:52:54,221 --> 01:52:57,961
and I respect you insane.

1293
01:52:59,121 --> 01:53:01,441
The levels of respect I have for you

1294
01:53:01,441 --> 01:53:04,121
and the decisions you made in life are insane

1295
01:53:04,121 --> 01:53:07,661
and it's always good to talk to you

1296
01:53:07,661 --> 01:53:09,821
and bounce these things back and forth.

1297
01:53:10,041 --> 01:53:12,481
I'm going to continue my support for BIP110 now

1298
01:53:12,481 --> 01:53:15,441
and we'll see what happens in the future.

1299
01:53:17,281 --> 01:53:19,921
Yeah, I respect you a lot, Knut.

1300
01:53:20,081 --> 01:53:23,661
Thanks for having these conversations with me both

1301
01:53:23,661 --> 01:53:26,441
on this podcast and on the phone before.

1302
01:53:26,741 --> 01:53:28,501
And thanks for being my friend

1303
01:53:28,501 --> 01:53:30,141
and I hope to talk to you soon.

1304
01:53:32,041 --> 01:53:33,941
With that, this has been

1305
01:53:33,941 --> 01:53:35,041
the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

1306
01:53:36,241 --> 01:53:37,081
Cheerio, folks.

1307
01:53:38,181 --> 01:53:38,841
Thank you.

1308
01:53:39,641 --> 01:53:39,901
Bye.

1309
01:53:53,661 --> 01:54:23,641
Thank you.