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Kansa, welcome back to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Nice to have you back.

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My pleasure to be here.

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Yeah, it's early morning for me and late at night for you because we're on opposite ends of the globe.

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You're in Australia. You've been on the show once before.

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We met once in Sydney three years ago, I think, almost three years ago.

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And you have always had fantastic takes on everything, in my opinion.

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I don't know of anyone who is more well read up on the Austro-libertarian ideas and foundations.

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So while I may not always agree with your sense for diplomacy online, I do agree with almost everything you say.

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And you're always right.

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And people get annoyed with it.

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So I thought you'd be the perfect guest to sort of wrap up the praxeological reasons for why you should be a monetary maximalist and why Bitcoin is money and not a fucking database.

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We might have to blur out the curse word there for the YouTube algorithm, but I hesitate to call it anything else.

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Let's get into it.

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If you want an introduction to Michael Kansa, you should watch our last interview.

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or you have a website too where you can find all these quotes to all of these nice libertarian

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articles but i'm i'm getting ahead of myself here what are so first question what are the two

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problems that money solves two problems that money solves we're going straight there so what is money

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if we want to like take one little step back yeah is uh so i'd say like the most salable good in

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society, which ends up being like a medium of exchange.

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And what money is, is the most common medium of exchange within a given context.

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That little bit of within a given context is attribute to Conrad Graf, who is on that

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point where often it's money and people get confused where the most common medium exchange

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and they look at like, okay, jail, you're the cigarettes they talk about and not understanding

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the difference between that and currency and how, well, it's like within that given context,

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yes, but like within the society itself, because like what is the most common medium of exchange?

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And so the question is like, is Bitcoin money? It's like, yes, it is for within the context of

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say Bitcoin Maximus. So people were, it's used as their store of wealth savings technology. It's

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their most common medium exchange for them. It's their unit of account. But then within the wider

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context, say, United States, is Bitcoin the most common medium exchange? And the question is

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necessarily like, well, within what context? And so like, no, I mean, that's the end up goal of

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what we want. Just like, as we understand from a practical logical perspective, as we get into it,

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where these commodities, so money is in its essence, a commodity is how Rothbard kind of

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summarized it. It's not a kind of a token, useless token, you know, needed for exchange,

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all monies refer back to Minger and Mises competing amongst other goods. And over time,

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the one with the best monetary properties kind of wins out in those competitions. And so

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individuals trade that and then becomes obviously the most common one you want to hold.

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But in terms of understanding that, so that's the most within a certain context, what is money?

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And then you've got the problems it solves. So what is it trying to solve? So initially,

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it's a double coincidence of wants. So you used to have barter and you're looking to trade,

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you know, I need to now find something that you want or good that you want and then vice versa.

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So that becomes a hard thing to do. And essentially, yes, it solves a problem like

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a double coincidence of wants where you're able to then just have money. So there's that commodity

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that you know is more saleable in society. So if you hold that, it's gold historically, right?

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you're able to then get a better chance of trading that for the things that you want or need. And it's

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able to store that quote unquote wealth over time. And so it's kind of insurance against uncertainty

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is what money is. It's like the most saleable good. It's like you've got something in stocks

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or whatever it is. If you need that for instant gratification of something for purchase,

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there's barriers to that where with money, cash, Bitcoin, you're able to use that and

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satiate those needs. So one, what are the problems that money solves? One is the double

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coincidence of once. And as it goes through that process is essentially, so it ends up being the

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unit of account. So the most common money medium of exchange in society is money. And then it's

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obviously becomes a common unit of account that enables the ability to rationally allocate

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resources given the common unit.

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Economic calculation is essentially the answer to that.

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The example of what's presupposed by that.

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So it's if you don't have property, you don't have, if you don't have property, then you're

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not able to, and there's no market, then you're not able to exchange goods.

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Essentially, then you don't have, if you're not able to do that, you don't have prices.

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And if you don't have prices, then you're not able to rationally calculate anything.

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And the best analogy I've seen is, and this is the best argument against socialism that

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exists, which is from Mises, which is the economic calculation argument.

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or the inability for states to rationally allocate resources.

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It's kind of think about you're the benevolent dictator.

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Historically, that's the one-party ruler,

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whether that's Hitler, whoever, the socialists,

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the national socialists,

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but then you've got the international socialists as well,

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so the Marxists, the communists, Lenin, all that.

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You've got the dictator.

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but even assuming Mises assumes goodwill from all the populists so everyone's a commie

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everyone's a socialist everyone's on board with and agrees with what the ruler wants to do it's

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okay assuming 100% all of that how do you choose whether you your resources from that would go to

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make a house or to burn a fire to build a train station or a school and so how do you do that

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without money being able to rationally allocate those resources and let the market choose it's

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It's a plan, it's a central plan, but you're not able to do it rationally in that sense.

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Then politics and all that other stuff comes into it.

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So yeah, those are the two problems money solves.

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And then I could go on to essentially what Bitcoin additionally solves, but yeah.

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Yeah, we'll go into that.

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I just want to add two points.

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I think there's a Hopper quote about, you said something, insurance against uncertainty.

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And I think there's a Hopper quote saying that money is the best insurance against uncertainty

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available.

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And I really like that definition.

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I like it more than like sort of on a society which is the most dominant form because that's

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sort of subjective in a way, I guess, like everything else, at least in terms of what

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money ought to be.

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It ought to be the best insurance against uncertainty possible.

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And in that sense, that's also one of the arguments for why Bitcoin is so superior to fiat, because fiat will lose value over time.

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We don't know where Bitcoin's value goes.

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We know where it goes over long periods of time if it works.

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We know that it goes to either zero or approaching infinity, to be blunt.

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But we definitely know that fiat will lose value, which is why it doesn't work, which is why the money is broken.

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There was another thing I thought about there, but I lost that, I think.

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So let's go on to, so why it's, yeah, let's see how to frame this.

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Applying this to Bitcoin, what kind of conclusions can we draw?

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Yeah, so knowing what money is, the conclusion, just straight jumping to the end here is,

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So like Bitcoin's a rivalrous digital commodity on an open source monetary network.

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And so unpacking that, a chronograph has a bit of a solid breakdown.

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Well, we can see, so Bitcoin is an economic good, kind of step one.

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Step two is then it's a rival good, which is a subtype of scarce good.

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And so rivalrous meaning, so what's the best way to frame it?

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So often the use of scarcity is used, but not as, I'd say, accurate or can sometimes lead to confusing conclusions and intellectual property kind of debate is a part of this where, you know, I have a recipe or something and I'm hiding it from you and it's like, that's scarce or I've got something like that where it's not used, where it's like the use of rivalries in terms of like conflict.

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and so it's a type of rival good knows a commodity and then a new type of commodity

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called a digital commodity with unprecedented monetary characteristics and so yeah it's let's

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say like part of that unpacking bitcoin what it is it's that rivalrous digital commodity open source

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monetary network within that how to look at it is so there's like a unit perspective and a systems

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perspective, it's that duality of sorts that is fairly prevalent in looking from a praxological

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perspective where you've got, say, the a priori or the prior to experience framework.

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So, for a praxological law, it's set up in the form of if X and Y remains unchanged,

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then Z will result.

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And that's like, think about it as the formula of sorts.

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And then it's like, okay, well, in this instance, like what happened exactly?

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Yeah, that's the all else being equal scenario, right?

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Yeah, an imaginary scenario.

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So this is TLDR on praxeology here.

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This is how you praxeologically attack problems.

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Just as you said, if X and Y remains the same, then Z has to follow.

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So what you do is you think of an imaginary scenario where all else is being equal, this

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being the Y in the equation, then it logically follows that Z must be the result of X, right?

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Exactly. And then it's kind of seeing a situation like, okay, is that what happened? And you're

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able to see a more powerful tool to understand the sort of theory behind that. And then it's like,

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where is it illustrating or not? So you've got, say, that foundation from a legal lens,

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it's there's a definition on the sense of like, what is theft? You know, this is the definition

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of theft. What is aggression? You know? And then it's like, okay, we know what that is now. Like

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in the, in the case specific case, it's like, okay, well did that bike, you know, whose bike

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was that? Or did it get stolen? Like who we can then objectively and into subjectively as an

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attainable way determine, well, yeah, we can agree that like I threw fists or someone threw fists at

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me and you know who struck first and whatnot so for me says and i think recently a bit of um the

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theory and history is an amazing book he's got where it is that breakdown of this you've got

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praxeology on one kind of the um think about systems lens and there's like thymology which

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is another word for like psychology of why and essentially you can look at the action and why

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that happened in intent i mean so kind of those two things together can present that that whole

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of what's happened.

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But looking at Bitcoin, while we've got that lens,

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yeah, Connograph does an amazing job of breaking down.

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Well, there's an element that it's rivalrous,

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but that's part of the innovation where within the digital realm,

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there's intellectual, digital IP.

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Like, I don't need to spend a rabbit hole on why intellectual property

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is invalid, where essentially it violates the property rights of others.

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It's like a monopoly of thought of like a non, this is the element of non-scarce goods

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where you're, yeah, it's not a adjustable way to go things.

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But so Bitcoin has an element of that way, like the blockchain is copyable and sometimes

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people get confused and mixed up like, well, you know, it's not worth anything in that

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regard.

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But then also there's a lens of the owners, it's like definitional stuff.

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So like, this will be important later as we discuss spam.

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So bear with me, but it's like, okay, you've got the on-chain piece and there's,

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definition. So ownership. So ownership is like the exclusive right to control where you're

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justified in using force to protect and defend your right. And then you've got possession,

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which is effective control. And so whether it's depending on the context and the audience,

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and obviously yours is better than the normies by a long shot, whether you bother to have these

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type of discussions, but it becomes important when you're trying to look at reality. And we discuss

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It's like, do you own, actually own ordinals?

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And like, what's it mean to own?

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And by consequence, also we talk about Bitcoin.

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And it's like, well, so Conrad Graff has a book,

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monograph addressing this really like 2015.

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And so we highly encourage everyone to kind of read that

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or provide some information.

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Are Bitcoins ownable this year?

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Yeah, yeah.

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That the title of the book right It a PDF available as well like 85 pages There isn a better I say just value unbiased approach that Conrad is very known for

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and tearing down not big words for the sake of it per se,

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but being incredibly accurate anyway.

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So long story, he does a solid job of breaking it down,

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but it's like the answer is, so you can't,

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and this is moving to the end here,

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and I throw people off, but you're not able to actually own

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so exclusive right to control Bitcoin.

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Like nothing on the time chain of blockchain says,

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you know, I have, Kanzai has a right to this UTXO or anything.

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Like keys could be, private keys could be stolen and lost and whatnot.

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And so, but the answer is, well, does it really matter

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if we don't per se where it's through private property,

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through nodes or computers, our own, like someone breaks in

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or hacks or trespasses, that's the private property rights violation that can be in place.

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And so it's not the fact that you can't have ownership of them, but, and Stephanie Kinsella

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talks about this as well. He's got a whole lecture on it that essentially it's the other rights

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violations though that can still like, you know, seeking damages where you trespass them, all this

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damage where you stole, you know, you got the private key access to that and then stole Bitcoins

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and stuff. So the reason why that is important, which is you can talk about later on, it's around

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ordinals and ownership of, quote unquote, ownership of JPEGs and dick butts and all that and what spam

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is and how that relates to what we're talking about. Yeah. To further cement this, first of all,

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Conrad Grof, look him up, is one of our favorite thinkers and he's very, very underappreciated in

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the Bitcoin community, I think. And we should hear more of it. Let's talk about what he's doing

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right now and stuff later on. The other thing is, in my mind, and when I try to explain this to

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people, I talk about this difference between ownership and possession a lot. And also that

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Bitcoin is really neither. It's on a deeper level because you can't really own Satoshi's. What you

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can, control is a private key. So you can know the location of a hardware wallet and the passphrase

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to it. You can know your 12 words. You can know the actual private key. But at the end of the day,

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it's all about keeping a secret from other people. That's the only thing that allows you to act as if

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you own the Bitcoin. But in reality, no information is actually ownable. It's just that this thing

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allows you to interact with other people in a way that reassembles money rather than is money

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and reassembles a commodity rather than being one.

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And I find this part of the rabbit hole to be endlessly fascinating

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because what it means, in my mind, is that all the Bitcoins live in someone's head.

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We are the network, literally.

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like not metaphorically but there is not a single set that exists or the ability to move it is

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always within a human brain and nowhere else just a quick comment on that is that is you agree with

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that framing or is it over complicating things i think i think you couldn't completely deduce it to

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that like or like in isolation but in essence yeah like i i agree where it's it's your human

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actions required it's not just and i think i had a thought experiment way back where it was

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Trying to push back against, I think it's the similar thing you're pushing back against.

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And it was like, I think the concept was like, what would happen if there was no one touched, you know, Bitcoin, like the human race ended, so to speak, like how long would it take for Bitcoin to last?

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And there was some interesting historical that like had been raised apparently years back in discussions for it.

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And so it's been a few years where I saw that, but the essence of it was, um, like wouldn't

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last long at all, like terms of hash rate and, and, you know, electricity and like all

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that.

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And what's it really matter?

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And then, um, how long would it last?

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And then say that someone came back after a certain period of time, like how long would

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it take to resurrect?

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And yeah, anyway, so, so it was, uh, uh, I'll try and find that, but it's, um, interesting,

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uh, to think about it.

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Well, what is it driving to the point of your you've raised, which is like, what is it?

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And it was the indication was like, yeah, humans matter.

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It's like, I think the trope was, uh, is along the lines of like, you know, Bitcoin doesn't

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give a shit or whatever, or one of these things about everything's good for Bitcoin type comments.

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Yeah.

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Which rail against as you know.

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So yeah.

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Yeah.

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The whole code is law thing.

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Like code is only law because we make it.

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Yeah.

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And law is another term that is fascinating because legal and lawful are two very different things.

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And we'll get into that later too.

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I just like, here's another thought experiment.

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What if Hal Finney, who cryo-froes his head when he died, memorized the private key and is resurrected like 400 years later and moves the Bitcoin?

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Like this completely changes everything about saving, hodling.

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like what these terms actually mean is so abstract and so ephemeral or whatever you can

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there is a very weird aspect to this in it being so abstract and this is also there's a reason for

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bringing all of this hippie mumbo jumbo up and that is the same arguments can be made for owning

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an NFT or owning spam because people think that that is also subjective and also, you

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know, in your head and you're just keeping a secret from someone and blah, blah, blah.

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And one of the hardest things for me when explaining Bitcoin to others is explaining

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why the Satoshi is sacred in this sense and why nothing else is or can be.

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So, and that's going to be hard to unpack, but yeah, where do you want to take this next?

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Like where's the next logical step to explaining these things?

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Well, for me, it kind of comes down to like as we're getting to, you know, there's changes to being proposed to Bitcoin by who and what and when and whether it should be or not.

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But it's like it always comes down to like the quality of money.

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like is bitcoin every i feel like every bip or any you know said action of sorts from developers

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or anyone on bitcoin it's like hey does this improve bitcoin's quality of money or reduce it

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and it kind of as simple as that and you can we can kind of actually talk more about the quality

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of money and what that is let's let's take that from the very beginning sorry for for interrupting

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here but i think i got a good angle gold has other use cases than the monetary use case it's used in

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industry and it's used for jewelry. And it's been argued that that makes gold a worse form of money.

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Why is that? Sorry, why is it as a worse form of money? I guess for me, it comes into like Mises

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regression theorem, right? Like it's how can you trace back essentially to a non-monetary use

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for whatever has become money. And Mises essentially says it has to be the case that

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there was essentially a non-monetary use. My actual angle is, and this is what Conrad Graff

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convinced me of otherwise where I originally 2010 days, you know, first time has been discussed

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in Mises community forums. Um, we're trying to figure out, you know, does it misregression

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theory imply to Bitcoin and does it invalidate it or validate it? But it was Conrad Graff who

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pointed out that essentially Bitcoin is, is, is, is the best example and best well documented and

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illustrated example of Mises regression theorem, which essentially makes the case that that wasn't

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like wasn't circular.

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A lot of it was always money is valuable because it's valuable,

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but it's like, no, hang on.

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If you trace the answer is time is what Macy said

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and you trace it back to a certain point,

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it was originally valued for some other non-monetary use.

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And so often the question,

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but I see people propose this towards Bitcoin

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that it doesn't have any and that's good.

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And so my actual angle is along with Chirograph,

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it's like, no, it has non-monetary purposes

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when it initially started.

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It didn't start with a price.

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it was essentially 2010 was like no price. And then like, anyway, Conor Graph, it's like there's

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early value components he kind of talks about where it was following a non-medium exchange

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value. And he kind of this five of them of sorts, which he's got a great part of an article on.

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But one of them is like, it doesn't matter what it was, but it's even if it's just like

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speculative thinking like long-term, this could be worth something in down the track. It's like

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kind of digital collectibles. If it's like F the state, you know, separation of money and state,

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this is amazing. And I get the value out of that, of just having these, the ideas, discussing,

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like whatever it is, they've still imparted that, you know, even if it's like toy-like digital

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objects of sorts, you can, there's all these examples, illustrations of it having that

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non-monetary value. So moving forward, but yeah, so sorry, drawing that to, I guess, gold, like

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The historical case has always been commodity money has had alternate uses and that's helped kind of, I guess, bootstrap it or move forward.

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But Rothbard also has an example, talks about it in Man Economy and State where even if something lost its, so there's a goal, like loses its non-monetary uses.

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and it can still actually carry on,

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I think it's the words like extant or something,

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like regardless of that.

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But then also vice versa,

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like it can lose its monetary premium as well.

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So like if gold or silver getting demonetized,

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then the value can drop considerably per se,

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all else being equal.

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And then maybe those other use cases

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would be used for that.

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Well, maybe that would change.

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Sorry, did I get it?

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Yeah, yeah. So in my mind, Bitcoin absolutely proves Mises regression theorem because we have the exact date where it becomes money.

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And that is pizza day. That is when Lasso buys the two pizzas for 10,000 bitcoins.

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That's the exact moment where a collectible turns into a medium of exchange.

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So it's super simple.

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No, the thing I was fishing for is sort of more like the other use cases for gold than the monetary use case makes it harder for people to price gold properly, right?

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Because those use cases distort the price somewhat.

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And like the question I'm leaning into from that perspective is like, is this also true for the other quote unquote use cases for Bitcoin that aren't really use cases other than for the spammer themselves?

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but like the mispricing of the thing yeah is sort of what i'm fishing for gotcha great question i

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guess like because it is they've got those differing uses per se um where like i know there's

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actually buying pure bullion you know gold bars of sorts like for in australia or any way you don't

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get it there's not capital gains perhaps on on that but then if it's like gold coins like it's

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collectibles then is there's something slightly different although it's got that commodity within

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it it's treated differently it's not pure from a pure monetary perspective it has to be like 99.9

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percent or something so there is different pricing already like just if you're looking to buy any

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um whilst it's the same commodity you're paying a premium for the the stamping or the the minting

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of it in certain ways.

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So you're right.

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But I guess from a, I actually gave that example as well.

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If you're trying to get at like, well, if you have, I put out a poll or a tweet where

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it was essentially, if you had money, like gold, it was like historically, say we're

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talking about gold and you added confetti to it, you sprinkled confetti onto it, like

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sprinkles and sparkles and whatever, like would that get more or like, would that be,

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you considered that was reduced its quality as money or improved it.

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And it was like 80% were like, no, it reduces quality.

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And like, what is this? And is that kind of, you know, by like,

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you know, it's kind of the Walter block kind of joke of, um,

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in say with Rothbard talking about, you know, Rothbard notes and,

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and he'd take them, you know, just being a pieces of paper with Rothbard on it.

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Um, but like someone trying to make that kind of joke where it's slightly

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different. It's like, no, people will be like, what the hell is this? And you've reduced it.

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And you've like, it's not a monetary thing. That's what we're after. So I think along similar lines,

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yeah, when we talk about specifically Bitcoin, I think it's even more clear cut where the open

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source monetary network, like it's a rival's residual commodity. And the whole point of the

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network is a peer-to-peer, you know, electronic cash system. It's all about Bitcoin as the unit.

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and then you've got the system and it's meant to facilitate sending saving essentially storing um

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that um and what do the like the ordinals like casey rodimore has admitted they have nothing

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or ordinals have nothing to do with bitcoin the asset itself and to the question is well

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what is what is big what does it have to do with being on the network then like why

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Bitcoin open source monetary network.

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As you say, it's an abuse case.

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And that thing I prompted him, it's like I've, it's almost got 15,000 views

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and I don't get many views, just spamming that everywhere,

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more or less over the years since you know February BTF what happened in February 2023 um since then and that was since the bug exploit has is um been promulgated where there was no bit there no consensus no

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discussion um and it's been exploited and bitcoin core admit it's been exploited but they also then

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say have adopted its change to define change the definition of data carrier size essentially said

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said it's now a feature, not a bug. Well, they are fixed a bug by updating the documentation,

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which is also something we've been ranting about. But long story, no one from getting pushed back

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from the other side, the Bitcoin is a database, you know, stall my dick butts forever side,

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have anyone has peeped up with a retort or an answer to, well, how do you justify this stuff

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new creator admits of ordinals admits and the exploiter himself admits it has nothing to do with

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it and open source money network like why it's why is it there and spam is and we do have a

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definition for spam which is non-monetary data um uh where we kids not subject where does that

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the definition come from though um so like i guess from it's it's like using understanding what money

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is. And if you're, if their claim is on their own terms is Bitcoin is money, then on their own terms,

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they have to admit that it's, and they already have essentially that it doesn't, it's nothing

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to do with the open source monetary network. Right. But do you mean where that definition

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comes from? Well, to me, it's, I mean, like logic reason. And it's, it's essentially definitional

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in terms of like, well, the white paper, Bitcoin's intent, what Satoshi described as, yeah, Bitcoin

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is a commodity, you're able to now transfer that. The problems it solves, which is, I mean,

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we talk about money, what are the problems that solves? And then Bitcoin is the additional problem

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solves, which is trusted third parties. So there's no need for trusted third parties anymore.

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And so it's with all that in mind, yeah, it's then you have, I think, pretty clear

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definition around what is and what isn't monetary. And it's like this one plus, so

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praxeology is a priori, as you know, it's kind of prior to experience. It's the equivalent or

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akin to math, mathematics, like applied logic. So one plus one equals two is as simple as that.

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It's like, we know that it's definitional. So similarly on the lines of what we know from

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praxeology, like the logic and science of action, effects and why remains unchanged,

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and there will result. If you accept it as money, which these guys, a lot of them do,

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like Brian Trolls or whatever his name is, Shinobi. For a long time, we're trying to push

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the angle of Bitcoin as a database. And it feels like there was a clicking point with Shitcoin

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Magazine or whatever, like this is not working and this is actually negatively not helping them

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at all. And so he's shut up, so to speak, or he's acknowledged inadvertently that it's a crummy

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argument. I don't necessarily think he's inadvertently done so, but just probably no

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monger parping about it. But then you hear like at and back kind of what we have seen is kind of

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come to the fore. And it's this lip service from the devs around Bitcoin Core, anyone associated

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that, oh yeah, Bitcoin's money. And then like, okay, let's just carry on. But they have no

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understanding of what money actually is. When you ask them, which I have multiple times,

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like what is the simple, like what problem does money solve? What problem does Bitcoin solve?

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Essentially, just crickets. And yeah, it's the div syndrome is merch pays lip service to it.

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You've got Gloria Zhao, like, you know, these viral clips that have happened that Matt has done.

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Crater.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. Yeah. Done an amazing job. Bitcoin University highlighting this stuff where it's

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this very clear cut that, yeah, you've got no idea what money actually is. And you've overtly

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admit that you can't talk about Bitcoin from a monetary perspective. And then that's the

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challenge where, well, if you don't have any economic literacy and you're working on humanity's

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best chance at freedom money, like what are you doing? And it's either acknowledging you don't

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understand, yes, you're a super tech dev and you understand the code, but human action, and we know

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is vital, incentives, then in economics that it's for is it's like seeing the seen and the unseen

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and understanding as a whole what policy, what different approaches can have. And then incentive

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structures and whether it's like improving or reducing the quality of money. Like how in the

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world can you improve, understand what improves or reduces the quality of money, which is Bitcoin,

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if you don't know economics in basic sense.

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So the worry is they should be at least acknowledging,

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like someone wise would understand, yes, that's a gap

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and I've got to consult someone.

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Or the community, the plebs who are very much overtly

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more monetary and have more monetary understanding

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and in many cases have more conviction, life savings,

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they've read the Bitcoin standard,

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there's no animosity to all that. It's actually, which we see a lot of devs with towards I've seen

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from safe about safe and all that approach where they've, for whatever reason, they're in a little

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bubble. They need to have some other kind of understanding or not understanding at all of

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basic economics. And so they don't see that there's a lot of red flags that essentially happen

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where they've also admitted like they're not,

401
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there's an open secret.

402
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So Jeremy Rubin, there's a clip with Casey Rodemar

403
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with Jeremy Rubin who turns out, yeah,

404
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had direct connection to Epstein,

405
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but he's admitting it's an open secret

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among the dev community that they don't run their own nodes.

407
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They don't, you're not sending transactions.

408
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Yeah, so there's a whole lot of things where.

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I'm going to have to devise out some of this stuff.

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One for the sake of argument,

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but also because I think there's a danger here in the monetary maxis side being too conspiratory.

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And I love Matthew Craddock's videos, but I think sometimes he draws conclusions that are not easily provable.

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00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:18,400
And also this whole notion of core devs not knowing what money is may be true for a lot of them,

414
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:20,820
but I don't believe it's true for all of them.

415
00:34:20,820 --> 00:34:32,360
There's the argument they would make, and the counter-argument here that Merch would make is, for instance, and I hope I'm representing him correctly here, is that it's futile to do anything about this.

416
00:34:32,420 --> 00:34:39,100
They say that these filters have proven to not work since it's just policy and you can override all the stuff.

417
00:34:39,100 --> 00:34:44,360
It, in a sense, is a database because you can put any type of data you want into it.

418
00:34:44,900 --> 00:34:55,960
And the rationale they're giving for increasing the op return, for instance, is that that would somewhat incentivize people putting their shit data there instead of trashing the chain.

419
00:34:56,300 --> 00:35:03,260
I personally think that's a horrid decision because it sends the message that this shit is okay to begin with.

420
00:35:03,260 --> 00:35:08,180
And that's why I'm so vehemently against it, because I don't think it is, because I don't think it holds any merit.

421
00:35:08,180 --> 00:35:11,640
but I can agree to that

422
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:12,840
to a certain extent

423
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:14,020
that it's very hard

424
00:35:14,020 --> 00:35:15,280
to do anything about it

425
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,200
except try to educate people

426
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:18,600
why shit coins are shit.

427
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,080
So what would you say to that?

428
00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:22,400
What would you say to

429
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:23,980
policy being changed?

430
00:35:24,340 --> 00:35:26,300
Actually, if you take their argument

431
00:35:26,300 --> 00:35:27,180
to be sincere,

432
00:35:27,500 --> 00:35:28,920
if you give them the benefit

433
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:30,560
of the doubt that they're doing this.

434
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,180
What would you say to that?

435
00:35:33,420 --> 00:35:33,840
Well, the thing is

436
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,040
we can give the benefit of the doubt

437
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:36,560
completely, which is

438
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:37,520
they're not bad actors.

439
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:42,380
there's no VC funding. There's no strings attached actually means no strings attached.

440
00:35:42,540 --> 00:35:48,460
There's Brink, there's Chaincode Labs, like all those necessarily folks with bad actor status,

441
00:35:48,580 --> 00:35:53,000
red flags around them that are like hovering, ignoring all that. That's why the economic

442
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:58,780
literacy argument I think is so powerful is because yeah, on your own terms, like understanding,

443
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,500
yeah, okay, Merchley accepts Bitcoin as money, but it comes back to that not understanding

444
00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:06,820
seeing the seen and the unseen or the counterfactual or the compared the counterfactual

445
00:36:06,820 --> 00:36:12,340
compared to argument all those being equal it's like well what are you looking at specifically

446
00:36:12,340 --> 00:36:18,460
and that that next action is it making it easier or harder is it reducing bitcoin's quality

447
00:36:18,460 --> 00:36:23,220
as money or improving it and they like to claim that yeah it's improving it because

448
00:36:23,220 --> 00:36:28,820
like you know going down the pathway of this cat and mouse game yeah the the argument would be that

449
00:36:28,820 --> 00:36:34,920
increasing the return size actually improves Bitcoin's usage as money because the spammers

450
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,920
would put their shit there instead of at more dangerous places.

451
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:39,440
Yeah.

452
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:40,200
Or more disruptive places.

453
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,280
And a billion more though, like the human actions, as if there's a vacuum.

454
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,220
I know they put their dev mindset on and it's like a game theory.

455
00:36:46,740 --> 00:36:50,480
And all they do is like, end result is like, yes, you do this quote unquote cat and mouse

456
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:55,560
game and you get to the end point where like, okay, fake pub keys on the time chain.

457
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:57,900
And, you know, well, that's what they're going to do.

458
00:36:57,900 --> 00:36:59,660
But it's like, no, hang on.

459
00:37:00,260 --> 00:37:05,660
There's an understanding of like, well, the signal that gets sent and the quality of decision

460
00:37:05,660 --> 00:37:06,240
being made.

461
00:37:06,340 --> 00:37:10,960
And yes, what you lean into in terms of whether it's being invited or not, is this good or

462
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:11,240
not?

463
00:37:11,340 --> 00:37:14,200
What are we signaling whether this is okay or not?

464
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,760
Like spam on humanity's best chance of freedom money.

465
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:24,900
To me, it's like if you, so they don't understand that element to it where we've historically,

466
00:37:24,900 --> 00:37:27,820
and this is where it gets hard to give them the benefit of the doubt

467
00:37:27,820 --> 00:37:30,940
where what has this worked, what has worked in the past?

468
00:37:31,060 --> 00:37:33,280
It's like this is the Opera Term Wars 2.

469
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:35,260
The first one, we won.

470
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:36,120
Why?

471
00:37:36,540 --> 00:37:40,760
And it's like there's this amazing article that kind of lays it all out

472
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,120
that has been shared a million times.

473
00:37:43,300 --> 00:37:48,480
The Bitfinex, no, what was the – I'll put it in the show notes.

474
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:50,900
But that article where it takes through –

475
00:37:50,900 --> 00:37:51,780
Bitmex Research, right?

476
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:53,120
Yes, something like that, yes.

477
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:59,360
um whereas essentially like the opera term was 2014 um and the answer was like the answer the

478
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:04,880
cyber punks the those who are more monetary orientated i'd say back then understood um what

479
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:10,960
bitcoin was money only and then it goes get stuff like no this you know essentially satoshi dice

480
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:17,520
being part of that um was uh around different period was like no it's like 50 it's non-monetary

481
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:23,520
um get stuff go away um we're gonna make it your life harder and essentially yeah the result of

482
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:29,760
that in that article is like uh ethereum being created they they left and then you get all the

483
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:36,720
coin spam and quote unquote quote unquote free market lapitarian scammer stuff in in hindsight

484
00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:41,840
i love the coins like i love that they did that and that they did their own on their

485
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:46,480
own chains and they didn't mess with bitcoin for 10 years like in hindsight that was fantastic

486
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:52,100
then they've come back and then and that's the challenge of instead of being the ogs who were

487
00:38:52,100 --> 00:38:57,840
like well no you can't come back and yes okay you found a bug exploit um that we're now going to fix

488
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:04,180
and that's what luke wanted to do and proposed and but then it is becomes even harder like to

489
00:39:04,180 --> 00:39:09,200
assume good faith when you were literally quoting like reg maxwell from back in the day you have

490
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:17,360
Gloria Zhao, you have not her, Ava Chao, where he was like, there's some post where he's basically

491
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:25,280
saying get stuffed, rug the spam is the equivalent of 10 years ago. And now his tunes change.

492
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,680
And so it's like, they're almost arguing against themselves, like what's happened to change that?

493
00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:37,680
You can either just, yes, the economic ignorance. And for A Chao's piece, he went to university and

494
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,860
came out, admittedly, with a, you know, I guess,

495
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,440
woke in that sense is how we'd probably characterize it.

496
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,620
But it's like, well, the economic literacy angle,

497
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,820
that's enough, I think, to explain the issues

498
00:39:50,820 --> 00:39:52,120
that are being faced.

499
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:54,820
But then it's not that.

500
00:39:54,900 --> 00:39:56,680
It's just there's all these other red flags as well

501
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:00,740
where it's the censorship, it's the delayed censorship

502
00:40:00,740 --> 00:40:03,480
on the mailing list with various proposals.

503
00:40:03,720 --> 00:40:06,800
It's going back where, like, yeah, where are they?

504
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:16,420
Yeah, I mean, sorry to interrupt again, but yeah, to clarify here, I do recognize that there is a ton of red flags.

505
00:40:16,420 --> 00:40:24,620
For instance, Eric Voorhees was one of the guy behind Satoshi Dice, the guy we threw out a long time ago, a decade ago.

506
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:32,320
He is now an investor in Citria, for instance, which is the current spam, bigger spam corporation attempt.

507
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,920
And an obvious bad actor, in my opinion.

508
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:43,220
He started a shitcoin exchange just to extract people's sats from them, giving legitimacy to all this other shit.

509
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,780
This is what these people do over and over again.

510
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,340
It's I like Bitcoin, buy my shitcoin.

511
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:49,800
That's the mantra.

512
00:40:50,420 --> 00:40:53,020
They're going to do that over and over again.

513
00:40:53,180 --> 00:40:54,300
And it's going to reiterate.

514
00:40:54,540 --> 00:40:56,680
It's going to take different forms every time.

515
00:40:56,860 --> 00:40:58,780
But it's the same scheme, right?

516
00:40:58,780 --> 00:41:08,120
It's a way that they have realized that sats are insanely valuable and are only going to be more valuable in the future.

517
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:17,140
But they're stuck in this fiat evil villain, supervillain mindset of, therefore, I should try to scam everyone out of their sats.

518
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:18,760
It's bad acting.

519
00:41:19,500 --> 00:41:25,880
And to me, one of the more beautiful parts of Bitcoin is that that's where resilience resides.

520
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:30,240
It's like, that's why we, because we kick these people out, that's why it works.

521
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:47,040
It not because this wall of digital energy that part of how we come to consensus on shit But still the consensus has to be around that this is money Otherwise it doesn work Otherwise it doesn have the internal system to pay itself to pay its own players

522
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,160
The miners get paid in sats.

523
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:56,060
There's a reason for that, that they don't get paid in a briefcase full of dollar bills or something else.

524
00:41:56,220 --> 00:41:59,740
They're supposed to have an incentive to like sats.

525
00:41:59,740 --> 00:42:08,520
so so yeah so the reason i don't want to go too hard on the red flags of the connections between

526
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:14,940
people and who might be doing what here is exactly that that i think that the economic arguments are

527
00:42:14,940 --> 00:42:21,320
enough and i want like people to to truly grasp them because that's what truly will kill the spam

528
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:27,680
is if no one falls for this shit anymore like the way i see it buying an nft or buying an ordinal

529
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,740
and having it forever on the time chain.

530
00:42:30,740 --> 00:42:34,080
It just means buying a star in the Andromeda galaxy,

531
00:42:34,380 --> 00:42:37,560
except like, because I cannot interact with it

532
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,020
in any other way than any other person on Earth can.

533
00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:45,540
Like the ownership means nothing if that's the case,

534
00:42:45,620 --> 00:42:47,800
because everyone else can see it too.

535
00:42:48,020 --> 00:42:51,220
Everything else around it is always on a third-party website.

536
00:42:51,460 --> 00:42:54,720
The problem here is that this very contract

537
00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:56,880
for owning the star in the Andromeda galaxy

538
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,040
fucks up my telescope, which is my node.

539
00:43:01,100 --> 00:43:01,200
Yeah.

540
00:43:01,740 --> 00:43:04,420
The fact that they're doing this,

541
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,940
they're sort of graffitiing the contract on the telescope.

542
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:10,860
There's maybe a bad metaphor,

543
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,680
but I'm trying to visualize how this is detrimental

544
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,420
and why people should absolutely grok this.

545
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:18,560
But yeah, so let's go on here.

546
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:19,500
Where were we?

547
00:43:20,720 --> 00:43:23,960
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548
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551
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552
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553
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554
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555
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556
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557
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558
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559
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560
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561
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562
00:44:29,500 --> 00:44:38,920
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563
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:44,300
came to mind there i mean like on the graffiti thing and like going back to like not not laying

564
00:44:44,300 --> 00:44:48,000
out going to the who's doing what type thing i think there's an element of that that's important

565
00:44:48,000 --> 00:45:01,260
Like Rothbard talks about, you know, it's not just, so talking about like, I guess the conspiracy element to it, for me, it's historically always been, like, say you go down to Alex Jones' rabbit hole when you start getting into liberty or whatever.

566
00:45:01,340 --> 00:45:06,560
And it's like, it's unnecessary where it's always like, oh, look at this doco or this person's doing this.

567
00:45:06,620 --> 00:45:07,220
It's all empirical.

568
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,900
It's all requires evidence, case-based stuff, you know, blah, blah, blah.

569
00:45:11,380 --> 00:45:17,200
Whereas the more powerful arguments are logic-based, which you can bring to the fore regardless of where you are.

570
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:18,880
and it's often on their own terms.

571
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,460
And this is why I do lean into the economic literacy piece

572
00:45:22,460 --> 00:45:24,540
in terms of the devs and whatever.

573
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:26,660
It's like, okay, well, if you accept Bitcoin as money

574
00:45:26,660 --> 00:45:30,120
and then all the monetary economic,

575
00:45:30,220 --> 00:45:31,660
like the knowledge of Austrian economics

576
00:45:31,660 --> 00:45:34,340
and we have understanding is behind us.

577
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,300
And so on your own terms, what you are proposing,

578
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,360
whether it's op return or whatever it is,

579
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:40,540
there's changes that they make,

580
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,180
opening up the abuse cases from our angle,

581
00:45:43,180 --> 00:45:49,360
we can indicate that the means you are using are not going to obtain the ends that you're after.

582
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:55,920
What would you say if they said that they disagreed with praxeology epistemologically?

583
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,320
Like if they refuse the whole axiomatic first principles?

584
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:06,520
So if they're like, no, Bitcoin, if it's instead of going, yes, it is money, they go, no, it's a database?

585
00:46:07,180 --> 00:46:12,540
Well, no, no, no, more like, yes, it is money, but money is not what Rothbard says it is.

586
00:46:12,540 --> 00:46:18,700
it's it's this like it i believe in modern modern monetary economics or whatever look i'd love to

587
00:46:18,700 --> 00:46:22,940
have those kind of like actual conversations but no they can't even answer the question of what

588
00:46:22,940 --> 00:46:30,620
money problem money solves like it's it's beyond a joke uh it's to be fair and i've pressed hey

589
00:46:30,620 --> 00:46:37,100
basically dunk on me i'm calling you out multiple times multiple areas and yeah it's just crickets

590
00:46:37,100 --> 00:46:42,300
And it's not just because I don't think like, oh, I'm an asshole or whatever.

591
00:46:42,540 --> 00:46:49,560
It's like, no, it's, hey, if you've got an asshole and you're open to dunking on him

592
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:54,940
severely, then you, and you know the answer and you're confident with it, then take it.

593
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:59,460
And the answer, it's not like, oh, I like, do you like chocolate or vanilla?

594
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:00,340
It's like subjective.

595
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:02,360
It's like, no, the answer is one plus one is two.

596
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:03,820
It's clear cut.

597
00:47:04,140 --> 00:47:06,200
You can tell me it's two and dunk on me.

598
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,940
That's why I kind of try, like iron's meant to sharpen iron a bit in the approach to things.

599
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:15,840
But when X person gets called out and they've said they agree that Bitcoin's money, it's

600
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:17,220
like, okay, well, what problems does it solve?

601
00:47:17,260 --> 00:47:17,780
And you get nothing.

602
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:19,520
I mean, what are you going to do with that?

603
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:20,440
Yeah.

604
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:26,620
And their textbook dev syndrome is like, so Stefan Casella's got an awesome little scenario

605
00:47:26,620 --> 00:47:33,120
where essentially it's critiquing engineers, which are devs in particular, but it's like

606
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:37,080
they've got a tendency, there's five kind of things, which I think you just read and you go,

607
00:47:37,180 --> 00:47:42,120
well, that's Bitcoin core in general. But it's like, one is they overestimate the applicability

608
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:46,580
of technical thinking. So they kind of have an engineering mindset. It's all about empirical,

609
00:47:46,580 --> 00:47:52,380
problem solving stuff. But they think that having a political, economic or philosophical

610
00:47:52,380 --> 00:47:56,240
approach is inappropriate, insufficient. It's all about engineering.

611
00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:01,900
Number two is neglect theory and intellectual tradition. So anything established in social

612
00:48:01,900 --> 00:48:05,960
science, humanities, if it's got no respect for, no one, generally speaking, no understanding for,

613
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:10,780
and they try and build theories from scratch. Three is they're influenced by scientism. So it's like

614
00:48:10,780 --> 00:48:15,680
scientism being, it's applying the scientific method, but to humanities, social sciences,

615
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:20,960
which is inappropriate. We can talk about why that is, but it's actually less scientific,

616
00:48:21,620 --> 00:48:26,480
where science means correct knowledge, which is like the kind of the origin of that term.

617
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:30,200
And then you've got four, which is they've got a blind subbot for like subjectivism and Austrian

618
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:37,360
economics. And then five, they kind of suffer from a kind of intellectual arrogance, which is a pattern

619
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:41,860
with engineers who's identified. They conquer their own field and they suddenly think they've

620
00:48:41,860 --> 00:48:46,520
got the ability to do that for elsewhere, other disciplines. So coming back to that top piece,

621
00:48:46,620 --> 00:48:53,060
that's what I see. And yes, I love to evolve to have those actual conversations, but they can't

622
00:48:53,060 --> 00:48:58,240
even get off the ground. And I've been pushing for people to be involved. And it's almost the

623
00:48:58,240 --> 00:49:03,320
point of like, I think every BIP, they talk about that needs to place like a Bitcoin improvement

624
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:10,260
protocol, a proposal needs to be like, it's all technical only, but for me, it's like monetary

625
00:49:10,260 --> 00:49:16,000
element needs to be part of that. If it's Bitcoin is money, then does it like propose like four or

626
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,540
five different questions, but it's like, how do the answer that you're proposing something,

627
00:49:19,900 --> 00:49:25,460
how does it improve Bitcoin? What are the monetary properties that are being improved?

628
00:49:25,460 --> 00:49:30,620
um are there any trade-offs like the variety of things that is not being incorporated and they

629
00:49:30,620 --> 00:49:35,360
they think they the challenges they think they know they read something like eric for schoolies

630
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:40,660
crypto economics or whatever um which is basically glorify wikipedia articles

631
00:49:40,660 --> 00:49:47,060
um and things that if you think bitcoin is market fiat that's your framing like

632
00:49:47,060 --> 00:49:51,680
immediate red flags and i can go on but um yeah that that's what they kind of hold up they don't

633
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:59,220
read what I see, Bitcoin Standard, they're reading that junk. And yeah, the problem is they think

634
00:49:59,220 --> 00:50:03,840
they know economics or they've gone to university and they think they know economics and that's

635
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:10,960
actually harder. You're more thickets of knowledge you have to decompress from or throw out as

636
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:17,900
opposed to being a blank slate and you can proceed in a clear way. No, I couldn't agree more. I mean,

637
00:50:17,900 --> 00:50:23,820
And the a priori, it's so basic and yet so misunderstood.

638
00:50:24,340 --> 00:50:30,560
Like if you throw a rock into a pond, you can calculate when the rock will hit the seafloor.

639
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:37,140
And if you throw a human being into the pond, you have no idea what the human being will do because they can swim in any direction.

640
00:50:37,720 --> 00:50:39,720
They can dive deep into the pond.

641
00:50:39,940 --> 00:50:41,380
They can do whatever they want.

642
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:46,120
And this is why praxeology is fundamentally different from the empirical sciences.

643
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:55,580
You cannot measure and expect to get equal results every time you measure because the market is always dynamic, always changing.

644
00:50:55,780 --> 00:50:57,040
It's never the same thing.

645
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:57,900
It is a process.

646
00:50:58,140 --> 00:51:00,020
It's not a thing in itself.

647
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:05,520
So the epistemology and the methodology here, I think it's super important.

648
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:18,220
One of my favorite Austrian economics books I mention a lot is Economic Science and the Austrian Method by Hans-Hermann Hoppe, where he points out how Mises actually bridged the two worlds between the subjective and the objective.

649
00:51:18,220 --> 00:51:19,520
and it's beautiful.

650
00:51:19,900 --> 00:51:22,960
And I think Bitcoin has such a potential

651
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:24,440
to be the ultimate tool

652
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,820
to actually build that bridge

653
00:51:26,820 --> 00:51:28,300
between the two worlds

654
00:51:28,300 --> 00:51:30,580
where human wants and needs

655
00:51:30,580 --> 00:51:31,980
can actually materialize

656
00:51:31,980 --> 00:51:34,620
in the most efficient way possible

657
00:51:34,620 --> 00:51:36,040
by having great money.

658
00:51:37,140 --> 00:51:38,520
So let's go on.

659
00:51:38,720 --> 00:51:40,240
What's your technical background?

660
00:51:40,420 --> 00:51:45,860
Like how technical would you characterize yourself as?

661
00:51:46,380 --> 00:51:47,240
Yeah, I would often,

662
00:51:47,240 --> 00:51:48,760
there's like a BISC presentation.

663
00:51:49,300 --> 00:51:50,700
I did it Bitcoin Alive,

664
00:51:51,240 --> 00:51:52,620
which you presented a few times,

665
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:53,400
like 2024,

666
00:51:54,220 --> 00:51:55,120
where I'm like,

667
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:56,040
I say I'm like,

668
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:57,140
I'm not that technical guy.

669
00:51:57,240 --> 00:52:00,620
Like I would say my sat on the sidelines.

670
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:02,660
I was on board theoretically,

671
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:03,480
you know,

672
00:52:03,500 --> 00:52:05,100
we're talking 2013 or whatever

673
00:52:05,100 --> 00:52:06,400
Conor and I graph convinced me,

674
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:08,620
but it was sitting on the sidelines

675
00:52:08,620 --> 00:52:09,540
for quite some time,

676
00:52:09,980 --> 00:52:12,100
given the practical side of things,

677
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:13,280
the more technical side of things

678
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,180
is what I was more of the barrier

679
00:52:16,180 --> 00:52:26,020
a blocker at that point but i was given the the the forced interests of sorts where um used to

680
00:52:26,020 --> 00:52:32,980
have this mythology around uh you know bitcoin core and what like you know the devs uh being the most

681
00:52:32,980 --> 00:52:38,500
you know thousand you know the most um reviewed source codes that are in existence and all this

682
00:52:38,500 --> 00:52:44,100
type of stuff and then seeing the actual reality a bit more behind the scenes where marcellus like

683
00:52:44,100 --> 00:52:47,440
like picks up like, no, they redefined data carrier size

684
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:50,440
and it was pushed by through next to no discussion,

685
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:54,160
no indication around that.

686
00:52:54,260 --> 00:52:55,520
That's like, okay, open my eyes a little bit.

687
00:52:55,520 --> 00:53:00,940
So it's kind of forced me in a way to become a whole lot more technically focused.

688
00:53:01,180 --> 00:53:04,440
So like I'm on that kind of journey, so to speak,

689
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:08,440
but I wouldn't characterize myself as being completely across it.

690
00:53:08,460 --> 00:53:11,360
But this is my kind of, I think I've had that pushback before of sorts

691
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:18,100
where in terms of, well, it's like in response to the changes that Core have been pushing through

692
00:53:18,100 --> 00:53:23,180
and knowing from a monetary perspective and understanding like their claims or what they

693
00:53:23,180 --> 00:53:29,900
think, how it improves it, but not being overt at all. So like even just the, but as it's like

694
00:53:29,900 --> 00:53:34,720
not myself in isolation, right? There's a lot more smarter people, technical on our side per se,

695
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:39,940
who also are completely aligned. And you're talking about folks like Luke, who's, you know,

696
00:53:39,940 --> 00:53:49,460
say bitcoin several times um objectively speaking it's um a devil's advocates argument i i am

697
00:53:49,460 --> 00:53:54,500
feel compelled to make because it applies to me too like both you and i are more from the monetary

698
00:53:54,500 --> 00:54:01,860
perspective than from the coding perspective and ideally you want to want this the the intersection

699
00:54:01,860 --> 00:54:07,620
of the venn diagram you want your core devs to be in there like technical and monetary and that's

700
00:54:07,620 --> 00:54:09,520
That's what we're trying to get at here.

701
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:13,900
I mean, yeah, and Luke certainly seems like a guy that is in that intersection.

702
00:54:14,420 --> 00:54:24,760
However, I disagree with Luke on a lot of other topics, but I don't think that necessarily dilutes my faith in him as a good force for Bitcoin or whatever.

703
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:35,980
Like, I don't doubt his ability to think straight on this stuff, especially given his history where he has been proven right many times over.

704
00:54:35,980 --> 00:54:43,040
so yeah the whole yeah there's no there's no um there's no call to personality here like it's um

705
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:48,920
for us it's it's reason logic based and um obviously we just should be by luke and you're

706
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:55,080
going down they talk about stays and whatever but um he's definitely um something who is it like

707
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:59,460
intuitive like he used to probably see it as he was interviewed like a cool like the devs currently

708
00:54:59,460 --> 00:55:05,460
do like a cool tech project but that changed into um along the lines where you can he's seen it's

709
00:55:05,460 --> 00:55:10,220
overtly it's like no humanity's best chance of free money essentially and understands that.

710
00:55:10,220 --> 00:55:11,220
Do I?

711
00:55:11,220 --> 00:55:14,640
And so intuitively though, where it's like decentralization here, I think he's on the

712
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:19,020
pulse and like that no longer be the case where it's like, we're not going to go off

713
00:55:19,020 --> 00:55:20,020
a cliff or anything.

714
00:55:20,020 --> 00:55:23,580
So, but it's definitely where, yeah, you're right.

715
00:55:23,580 --> 00:55:28,280
We want the devs to whoever is making and proposing those changes to understand human

716
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:33,080
action and the consequences of certain things, but also yeah, being crossed out and being

717
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:39,920
both so like yeah it's i think historically i think it's not there's a bit of an angle of with

718
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:45,360
the number number going up where plebs who have like done the work and i've seen this some some

719
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:49,520
other friends where they've you know have more time where they say retiring or whatever it is

720
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:54,720
not retiring but focusing or more of an incentive to protect their stack and if that is then

721
00:55:54,720 --> 00:55:59,680
involving learning to code learning um you know grokking bitcoin essentially from a technical

722
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:04,340
perspective like they need to. And you have more of a self-interest as the value proposition goes

723
00:56:04,340 --> 00:56:12,100
up to do that. And then I think also captures a bit of why the devs, I think they don't state it,

724
00:56:12,180 --> 00:56:16,740
like the spam perspective where they don't say, oh, the security budget is a concern,

725
00:56:16,900 --> 00:56:22,820
but they can write it off where if you thought that it's a threat, it's a problem, like at some

726
00:56:22,820 --> 00:56:28,380
point, the miners are not going to get paid, given the little more block rewards down the track.

727
00:56:28,380 --> 00:56:30,920
and then fees are the only thing going to carry stuff,

728
00:56:31,420 --> 00:56:32,000
like what then?

729
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:34,320
You get a death spiral of people not,

730
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:36,360
why would you mine kind of thing.

731
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,860
Where it's like, no, if you've got X amount of Bitcoin

732
00:56:39,860 --> 00:56:41,180
and it's like you want to,

733
00:56:41,340 --> 00:56:43,320
there's a self-interest to secure that

734
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,220
in a sense of like protect it or decide

735
00:56:45,220 --> 00:56:46,880
what it goes in the next block

736
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,380
or where the hash is being pointed at.

737
00:56:50,300 --> 00:56:53,180
You have an incentive.

738
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:55,320
So like, well, maybe it's like 1% of your wealth,

739
00:56:55,700 --> 00:56:57,100
10%, 5%, 10%

740
00:56:57,100 --> 00:57:01,260
as even just a pleb to join

741
00:57:01,260 --> 00:57:03,180
and as an educational perspective as well.

742
00:57:03,580 --> 00:57:04,740
So I think that down the track,

743
00:57:05,380 --> 00:57:07,420
it's actually no,

744
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:08,580
like people will have incentives

745
00:57:08,580 --> 00:57:11,060
to run mine themselves

746
00:57:11,060 --> 00:57:12,900
and that's more decentralizing.

747
00:57:13,380 --> 00:57:14,380
And it's a, well,

748
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:16,080
it's not just monetary profit.

749
00:57:16,220 --> 00:57:17,020
Like it's not understanding

750
00:57:17,020 --> 00:57:19,260
practical logical definition of profit

751
00:57:19,260 --> 00:57:21,360
is a psychic profit.

752
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:22,820
It's not monetary only.

753
00:57:23,020 --> 00:57:23,800
We're not just,

754
00:57:23,940 --> 00:57:25,780
people don't care just about numbers.

755
00:57:25,780 --> 00:57:28,600
I mean, yes, that's the most use case from an economics perspective.

756
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:29,500
We can assume that.

757
00:57:29,900 --> 00:57:39,620
But Rothbard gives an example around, you know, it's the owner of a business who gives his cousin's friend a job or something like that.

758
00:57:40,700 --> 00:57:44,540
There's an element of, so psychic profit is the thing that actually matters.

759
00:57:45,020 --> 00:57:52,500
And so like I, as a, you know, mining with ocean or whatever, and you're filtering or just a node runner running knots, filtering out spam.

760
00:57:52,500 --> 00:57:57,080
There's satisfaction in terms of the filtering element,

761
00:57:57,180 --> 00:57:59,420
the profit of that in that regard, or mining,

762
00:57:59,580 --> 00:58:03,300
and then kicking some other spam transactions out into the next block,

763
00:58:03,780 --> 00:58:04,700
not including them.

764
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:09,120
There's also a monetary element, but also a psychic profit point too.

765
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:13,660
And Grass Mechanic talks about it as it's like kind of miners

766
00:58:13,660 --> 00:58:17,100
trying to core assumes like they want to pick up pennies

767
00:58:17,100 --> 00:58:19,080
in front of a steamroller type stuff.

768
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:20,680
And it's like, no, not necessarily.

769
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:26,620
And I think it's just been needing more to highlight the long-term economic elements,

770
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:32,960
which I think are so important in terms of ensuring the quality of money is maintained.

771
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:39,260
And I know, and that's the kind of missing link where they, I think it's ignoring a vacuum,

772
00:58:39,380 --> 00:58:43,840
they go the dev mindset of like X, yes, cat and mouse, get to this end point.

773
00:58:43,940 --> 00:58:44,740
And that's not going to be great.

774
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:49,500
And they compare that end state to the current state where it's like, well, no, in those steps,

775
00:58:49,500 --> 00:58:54,520
you're making it harder and then what is also the signal so getting people to to leave and go

776
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:59,640
elsewhere where they also don't factor in a graffiti analogy where think about like it's

777
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:04,260
a monetary network just like a train or transport network and say we're like grand central station

778
00:59:04,260 --> 00:59:09,000
or wherever it is and you've got the whole subway and the subway there and the whole point is to go

779
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:14,160
from a to b you know transport wise and that's all the monetary the purpose of then that network

780
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:19,400
that that's transport network and then okay well hang on we've got this opportunity there's this

781
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:26,820
side wall, this kind of where graffiti can go. And instead of going, well, because some people

782
00:59:26,820 --> 00:59:32,220
do graffiti and it's like on the train, instead of like putting in policy measures or whatever it

783
00:59:32,220 --> 00:59:40,560
takes to reduce their ability to graffiti or slow down trains or whatever it is, you go, well, hang

784
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:44,120
on, can we, we can make it, there's a graffiti wall we can give them where they can go and do

785
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:50,520
graffiti. And then in the hopes of instead of getting in their way and slowing down the network

786
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:55,160
elsewhere, they can come in and just do their graffiti there. But it's like, okay, well,

787
00:59:55,500 --> 01:00:02,180
you're then also incentivizing maybe more graffiti guys to come globally. It's not just a train

788
01:00:02,180 --> 01:00:07,920
network locally. It's like, hey, signal to all the graffiti artists in the world, you get hassles

789
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:13,900
from everywhere else. But then this section lasts forever. You don't have less risk. Come over here

790
01:00:13,900 --> 01:00:17,360
and we're going to make that wall 100,000 times bigger or whatever.

791
01:00:17,540 --> 01:00:18,980
Going to re-reportate an increase.

792
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:22,680
It's like, no, it should be, that's a signal on the quality of it as well.

793
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:28,860
And yeah, the Phil Baggis, sorry, the Baggis article around the quality of money

794
01:00:28,860 --> 01:00:30,600
really goes into a lot of it.

795
01:00:31,620 --> 01:00:35,660
The economic angle has historically been around like the quantity theory of money

796
01:00:35,660 --> 01:00:39,820
where an increase in the quantity obviously has an impact,

797
01:00:39,980 --> 01:00:43,420
but he talks about and dives into more about the quality of money.

798
01:00:43,420 --> 01:00:54,420
So like the signal, even if no changes happen on Bitcoin, so like by analogy, the state signals, well, we're going to increase a quantitative easing.

799
01:00:54,460 --> 01:00:56,100
They just talk about it or whatever.

800
01:00:56,200 --> 01:01:00,620
That can send a signal to the market that the quality of money is in the US dollar is going to go down.

801
01:01:00,620 --> 01:01:18,780
And so from a core perspective, which I don't think they have any understanding about, is that the signal that they can send as well can have a massive impact on if Bitcoin is money, then of that, the quality of the network and who comes and who doesn't and what is maintained and what isn't.

802
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:24,900
And like with the VC money you're inviting in, and that's potentially corrupting as well.

803
01:01:24,900 --> 01:01:43,060
Yeah, and there's a bigger impact. The current price drop here may or may have something to do with people getting cold feet because they're afraid of this whole core authority being implemented and all this debate's going on. Of course it has an impact.

804
01:01:43,060 --> 01:01:49,680
The thing I hope will happen is that everyone's happy that this conflict is happening because it means Bitcoin works.

805
01:01:50,060 --> 01:01:57,200
Like if Bitcoiners were complacent and didn't react to stuff, that would mean Bitcoin isn't working to me.

806
01:01:57,420 --> 01:02:02,700
Like that would be way much more of a red flag than there being a conflict.

807
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:09,280
We should be in constant conflict or rather in constant argument to make a Hopian leap here.

808
01:02:09,380 --> 01:02:11,180
We should be in constant argumentation.

809
01:02:11,180 --> 01:02:13,780
We should never have an actual armed conflict.

810
01:02:14,060 --> 01:02:19,240
We should resolve all the conflicts through communications, which is what we're trying to do here.

811
01:02:19,780 --> 01:02:33,060
So shall we get to the gist of the proposed forks, like what they are and what the core arguments, pun intended, for them are, rather the knots arguments.

812
01:02:34,500 --> 01:02:37,960
In your mind, why should people run knots?

813
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:40,820
Why should people be pro BIP-110?

814
01:02:41,180 --> 01:02:47,580
why should they be pro the cat if that's your stance like or or or the opposite yeah yeah so

815
01:02:47,580 --> 01:02:54,240
why run knots to me it's like it's a from a policy level from a supporting um those it's like it's

816
01:02:54,240 --> 01:03:00,380
the bitcoin is monetary only angle i'd say luke saying luke's key thing there is choice it's like

817
01:03:00,380 --> 01:03:05,280
choice to the node runners like not taking away choice um i'd probably be more inclined to have

818
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:11,400
the default settings for that should be the monetary only angle of where like a lot harsher

819
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:16,920
around you know the dials per se you can change to like mitigate a lot of the different data types

820
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:23,360
and so from from my perspective it's like why not it's it's sending a signal but also a practical

821
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:30,900
perspective of like what can you do individually um and to support bitcoin as as monetary only

822
01:03:30,900 --> 01:03:36,660
like improve its quality. And whilst it might be folks consider that not much, but like if everyone,

823
01:03:37,540 --> 01:03:41,780
you know, I do it for the sake of it's the right thing to do from my perspective where I'm not

824
01:03:41,780 --> 01:03:47,700
adding to the trash, I'm throwing everything I can to mitigate and filter all else being equal.

825
01:03:47,700 --> 01:03:53,340
Like it is harder to propagate across the network than it otherwise would be. And then like, yeah,

826
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:57,140
then there's the consequence of, you know, this is the debate we have over several years, but like

827
01:03:57,140 --> 01:04:03,120
it's kind of shifted because it was always, you can't do anything about it, but it's like

828
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:08,080
ignoring that it's all about rate mitigation. It's about limiting, rate limiting. It's about

829
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:16,500
mitigation. It's not about this Nirvana fallacy of you can eliminate spam where that's not necessarily

830
01:04:16,500 --> 01:04:21,800
the goal. And so that was attacking a straw man, but that's kind of faded that in discussion because

831
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:29,680
um yeah the existence of the cat which claire australian um has as you know nim has come out

832
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:34,020
with um and the fascinating thing is like it's so this is a easy way to summarize this thing is

833
01:04:34,020 --> 01:04:43,220
like backwards looking um and then you've got bip 110 um that is um danthemum that's um forward

834
01:04:43,220 --> 01:04:52,320
looking per se. But with the cat, it talks about, for want of better words, so like using the

835
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:58,820
ordinals and a variety of the non-monetary data kind of protocols, it's taken in for their word.

836
01:04:58,980 --> 01:05:04,140
They suggest that they're flagging, like signaling this is non-monetary data. We've heard from Casey

837
01:05:04,140 --> 01:05:09,660
that he, you know, ordinals creator admits it's not nothing to do with Bitcoin, the asset itself.

838
01:05:09,660 --> 01:05:13,380
So my book, yeah, it's non-monetary, it's spam.

839
01:05:13,580 --> 01:05:20,500
Regardless if there's a valid transaction or not, we can go down that rabbit hole of the trope is valid transaction is valid transaction.

840
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:33,360
And, you know, we talk about historically the inflation bug, the 2010 overflow piece where, yeah, a lot of these tropes that people push back on have already on their own terms.

841
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:35,360
they've not

842
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:37,340
they finally get a contradiction with what they currently

843
01:05:37,340 --> 01:05:39,340
support with what's already happened but they're just

844
01:05:39,340 --> 01:05:41,380
not aware of it but yeah ultimately the

845
01:05:41,380 --> 01:05:43,400
cat I think one is

846
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:45,340
like often when I've been pushing discussing this

847
01:05:45,340 --> 01:05:46,820
with others it's a bit of

848
01:05:46,820 --> 01:05:49,380
their floor premise so those

849
01:05:49,380 --> 01:05:51,160
that have they talk about

850
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:53,320
confiscation for want

851
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:55,360
a better word or freezing or any

852
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:57,360
of those that it's like one it's based on that

853
01:05:57,360 --> 01:05:59,300
they actually have ownership of it

854
01:05:59,300 --> 01:06:01,460
which they don't but interesting trope

855
01:06:01,460 --> 01:06:02,700
is where it's like pushing.

856
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:04,900
So those who are NFTs, ordinals,

857
01:06:05,020 --> 01:06:07,140
and they're very fearful of the cat.

858
01:06:07,380 --> 01:06:07,860
It's okay.

859
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:11,040
Essentially, I'm like, where's your art?

860
01:06:11,180 --> 01:06:13,640
Like you've loved showcasing your art, right?

861
01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:14,740
Like where is that?

862
01:06:14,860 --> 01:06:16,800
And often pushing them for that.

863
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:19,080
A few people have provided that

864
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:20,940
or have essentially provided it.

865
01:06:21,100 --> 01:06:22,180
And it's like, okay, well now,

866
01:06:22,340 --> 01:06:23,620
from a cat perspective,

867
01:06:23,900 --> 01:06:25,880
it identifies via their own index

868
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:28,120
what they consider normanotos,

869
01:06:28,260 --> 01:06:30,300
like dick butts and all that jazz.

870
01:06:30,300 --> 01:06:32,720
as flagged as non-monetary.

871
01:06:32,860 --> 01:06:34,040
And so it can capture that.

872
01:06:34,500 --> 01:06:37,520
And then using those, not heuristics,

873
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:42,360
but like kind of rules of sorts that they're abiding by,

874
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:45,480
it can identify, well, these are non-monetary transactions.

875
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:49,720
So it's like those transactions that are under 1,000 sats.

876
01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:53,580
So essentially 86 cents Australian or whatever currently.

877
01:06:53,580 --> 01:07:06,060
But the monetary, the sats piece is just the fact, it's not the fact that it's like, oh, it's low in value.

878
01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:21,520
From my perspective, quote, dust, like, yes, that 86 cents or like the thousand sats, that if you know Bitcoin long term, like 10Xs or to like $100 or what is it?

879
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:27,060
like 116 times to like $100.

880
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:30,640
Bitcoin would have to be $10 million a coin.

881
01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:33,080
So those things can become value long-term,

882
01:07:33,700 --> 01:07:37,080
but it's more the fact that, yeah, it's overtly, objectively,

883
01:07:37,420 --> 01:07:41,700
and we can determine it's spam and so it shouldn't be there.

884
01:07:41,700 --> 01:07:46,880
And so you can quote, unquote, I'd say the best example is repudiate it,

885
01:07:47,340 --> 01:07:51,380
kind of like the concept of public debt and private debt.

886
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:56,480
rothbard talks about the national debt and public debt and repudianting it and the public debt is not

887
01:07:56,480 --> 01:08:02,160
the same as private debt they should not be treated the same way if for instance by analogy so if

888
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:06,480
yeah the soviet union racks up all this public debt or the united states racks up all this public

889
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:10,640
debt it's much clearer in the soviet union case it's like this this dictator right so it makes up

890
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:16,000
all this public debt and then they get overthrown or the populist revolts should you should the

891
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:21,200
populist still be hamstrung by that public debt like no and so it's like repudiate it and the you

892
01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:22,800
They never consented to it.

893
01:08:23,420 --> 01:08:24,740
Yeah, no, no, there's no consent.

894
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:27,720
And even like the United States, there's no consent to the state.

895
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:31,100
There's no contract with the state that changed the rules amongst the game and all that.

896
01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:34,840
But even then, the United States has repudiated the national debt three times,

897
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:36,480
and in central banking three times.

898
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:38,560
But historically, there's a few examples,

899
01:08:38,980 --> 01:08:42,820
as a once or twice Ross Bard talks about in repudiating the public debt there.

900
01:08:43,280 --> 01:08:45,880
And so by analogy, there's a distinction there.

901
01:08:46,260 --> 01:08:49,760
But most people would be like, well, no, no, no, it should be treated the same.

902
01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:50,620
You can't do that.

903
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:55,760
But when you understand more in depth, you understand, well, no, there is a clear principle

904
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:58,820
here and you can, and it has happened.

905
01:08:58,820 --> 01:09:01,220
That was what the most justifiable approach.

906
01:09:01,700 --> 01:09:06,960
The same thing with Bitcoin and the cat and understanding what is monetary, what isn't,

907
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:11,160
and what should be maintained or what should be removed.

908
01:09:11,380 --> 01:09:13,000
There is a potential signal.

909
01:09:13,140 --> 01:09:18,100
And then people talk about like, is that a slippery slope of, well, OFAC compliance,

910
01:09:18,100 --> 01:09:21,300
like you're putting in place the tools for others to get on board.

911
01:09:21,300 --> 01:09:32,400
And it like well no not if if because because it like if you want to say one plus one equals two what monetary and isn you have that whole rich Austrian economics understanding of economics background

912
01:09:32,700 --> 01:09:33,440
It's clear cut.

913
01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:33,940
It's definitive.

914
01:09:34,420 --> 01:09:36,960
You can argue like, yes, one plus one is two or not.

915
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:42,160
But if you don't have that understanding, it becomes, yes, it can feel like willy nilly

916
01:09:42,160 --> 01:09:48,120
and it's not deductive and axiomatic and a priori.

917
01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:50,640
It's a little like, you know, empirical.

918
01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:56,960
it's like hypothetical like then that might feel like a slippery slope and that's why you have that

919
01:09:56,960 --> 01:10:01,960
fear and so there's a very much a pattern i've seen of those who have done the work understand

920
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:06,520
what austrian economics is and the praxeology and the basics can understand well we are very

921
01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:11,320
being definitive here we do understand it's as well again it's on their own terms and so yes

922
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:17,480
you weren't repudiating that and it's justifiable i don't think it's called calling it confiscation

923
01:10:17,480 --> 01:10:19,700
Bitcoin is an accurate use of term.

924
01:10:19,700 --> 01:10:25,520
I think that is built on a flawed premise of accepting IP and you can own images and

925
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:27,300
whatnot, which is incorrect.

926
01:10:27,300 --> 01:10:33,820
But yeah, there's that angle to it, which I think is a challenge.

927
01:10:33,820 --> 01:10:37,420
Let me offer you my perspective and see what you think about it.

928
01:10:37,420 --> 01:10:38,420
Let's dissect this.

929
01:10:38,420 --> 01:10:39,420
Yeah.

930
01:10:39,420 --> 01:10:44,580
The thing is, the false notion that Bitcoin is backed by digital energy is what's behind

931
01:10:44,580 --> 01:10:47,220
a lot of this and that code is law.

932
01:10:47,480 --> 01:10:53,400
What constitutes a valid transaction or not is ultimately up to the network.

933
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:57,880
And we can tolerate a lot of stuff, but that doesn't mean we approve of it.

934
01:10:58,040 --> 01:11:02,820
And there's a great South Park episode called The Death Camp of Tolerance, where they point

935
01:11:02,820 --> 01:11:05,440
out the difference between tolerance and approval.

936
01:11:05,740 --> 01:11:10,080
Just because you tolerate something doesn't mean that you agree with it or approve of

937
01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:12,040
it or think it's courageous or whatever.

938
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:17,400
So even the threat of this fork happening has reduced the amount of spam.

939
01:11:17,480 --> 01:11:32,460
And I love that. It's pointing out so many things about this. It's pointing out that the network decides, and we'll probably never get a consensus around this fork. I can buy that argument. I shouldn't say that, but we'll see what happens.

940
01:11:32,460 --> 01:11:44,400
But even if there isn't consensus around it, the fact that it's on the table and the fact that there might be consensus around it should make all the spammers rethink their business models.

941
01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:49,920
Because all of a sudden, this guarantee that this will be here forever simply isn't there anymore.

942
01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:59,640
So their whole forever thing is dependent on what node runners at the end of the day choose to, what kind of software they choose to run.

943
01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:04,780
so and and this is the beauty of the system was always the beauty of the system it's just that

944
01:12:04,780 --> 01:12:11,740
it's so misinterpreted since it's been the proof of work is being hailed as the big thing that makes

945
01:12:11,740 --> 01:12:18,260
bitcoin work but proof of work is just one small part of a much larger machine that at the end of

946
01:12:18,260 --> 01:12:24,360
the day runs on consensus and what an agreement on a fixed set of rules what you and i decide that

947
01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:31,160
Bitcoin is. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, just the fact that, that the cat is on the table and points that out

948
01:12:31,160 --> 01:12:37,120
is very beautiful to me. Yeah. And it's, you're right. It's that consensus. So like it's, it's,

949
01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:45,340
yeah, the consistency for those that are maybe like hesitant to, to support. Yeah. You point out

950
01:12:45,340 --> 01:12:49,800
like on their own terms. Okay. It's like, well, talking about like a confiscation of sorts of

951
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:54,920
freezing assets and like well yeah then you ask about the inflation bug in like 2010 um like the

952
01:12:54,920 --> 01:13:02,600
the overflow where there were coins that essentially um uh confiscated and it's and then there's a

953
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:07,640
really question of like press people that have that mindset and like so they were you were against

954
01:13:07,640 --> 01:13:13,320
that uh you know the 86 billion or whatever it was that were the two transactions the utxos that had

955
01:13:13,320 --> 01:13:19,480
that um uh amount in there like based on what like why would you object to that which you rightfully

956
01:13:19,480 --> 01:13:27,640
you object to that and fix that and fork to ensure that Bitcoin doesn't have 186 billion

957
01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:28,600
or whatever Bitcoin.

958
01:13:29,260 --> 01:13:30,340
What's that based on?

959
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:35,940
And the answer that I would always not get, like they just block, mental block for whatever

960
01:13:35,940 --> 01:13:38,220
reason, I don't understand the premise of the question.

961
01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:47,280
The answer is the reason we know that is not great, shouldn't be done on their own terms

962
01:13:47,280 --> 01:13:51,880
of you think Bitcoin is money is because, yeah, you've got the whole field of economics and

963
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:58,820
knowledge that indicates why inflation is bad and why increasing the money supply is detrimental,

964
01:13:59,140 --> 01:14:05,780
unnecessary, and isn't needed. And so if you don't, like I said, that's the key thing to draw

965
01:14:05,780 --> 01:14:12,400
through. And then that same answer of why we've hard forked and fixed that was consensus accepted

966
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:19,420
then, but also it's based on what? It's based on that understanding of economics and prior

967
01:14:19,420 --> 01:14:24,240
knowledge regarding that. And so the same can be applied. Those same principles can be applied

968
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:30,400
to spam and the monetary or the non-monetary stuff that is there. And that's why there's a

969
01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:35,020
consistency there for those that I think support getting rid of that stuff. And for me, it's

970
01:14:35,020 --> 01:14:42,060
reduce yeah what what what what helps improve bitcoin's quality is money um and what yeah in

971
01:14:42,060 --> 01:14:46,880
essence and so we've got there's the cat which is which i think is amusing as well because out of

972
01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:53,440
that you see greg max or whatever talking about like to the mailing list around banning those

973
01:14:53,440 --> 01:14:58,760
that are proposing confiscar confiscation quote-unquote quote confiscating coins but then you

974
01:14:58,760 --> 01:15:04,920
have Peter Willey, you know, Boxstream already talking about with quantum coins, updating the

975
01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:12,400
algorithm to do that. And so like consistency doesn't exist. Actually, it's funny, like I don't,

976
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:18,600
those coins shouldn't be changed and actually confiscated or stolen or like changed. For my,

977
01:15:18,700 --> 01:15:23,240
like Conrad Graf in his book, Bitcoin's Ownable, like it's chapter four, it talks about brain

978
01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:28,740
wallet scanning, brain wallet, like the elements of trespass and theft and talks and dives into that.

979
01:15:28,760 --> 01:15:39,260
And there's a very solid scenario around like, well, those who are white hat, you know, say this is the example of like that brainwool, like scanning to the quantum threat.

980
01:15:39,340 --> 01:15:45,160
Well, if you've got that quantum ability, is it like there's white hat, there's black hat, there's gray hat.

981
01:15:45,260 --> 01:15:48,640
There's like, there's a variety of things you can kind of go through and talk about.

982
01:15:48,780 --> 01:15:52,000
But yeah, that's again, just another key of them missing the economic element.

983
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:54,200
And that's definitely a concern.

984
01:15:55,840 --> 01:15:56,280
Yeah.

985
01:15:56,400 --> 01:15:57,760
So, I mean, that's the cat.

986
01:15:57,760 --> 01:16:07,900
And then more forward-looking is like BIP-110, which is, I guess, like a temporary limit.

987
01:16:07,940 --> 01:16:11,000
It's got a temporary limit on the size of data fields at the consensus level.

988
01:16:11,700 --> 01:16:21,920
So it's kind of in order to correct distorted incentives caused by standardizing support for arbitrary data and then refocuses priorities on improving Bitcoin as money.

989
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:27,820
So it's like temporary protection, limits on data storage and preserves monetary use and refocuses on Bitcoin.

990
01:16:28,380 --> 01:16:36,100
It kind of bore out of a threat around like emergency threat from perspective of CSAM type stuff.

991
01:16:36,520 --> 01:16:40,740
But then more forward looking around, there's like an activation point in nine months.

992
01:16:42,040 --> 01:16:49,240
There's a minor, potentially like wanting miners to fork across.

993
01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:53,260
where it's like a minor activated soft fork,

994
01:16:53,880 --> 01:16:55,280
which hopefully they activate before then,

995
01:16:55,320 --> 01:16:57,120
but if not, then it's UASF.

996
01:16:57,340 --> 01:16:59,540
But yeah, that gets kind of into the technical weeds.

997
01:16:59,800 --> 01:17:01,580
But yeah, that's definitely more forward looking.

998
01:17:01,800 --> 01:17:03,080
And it's again, so like, again,

999
01:17:03,300 --> 01:17:05,180
whatever improves Bitcoin's quality is money,

1000
01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:08,180
sends the right signal, you know, I'm all for that.

1001
01:17:08,320 --> 01:17:09,960
But yeah, I can understand the concerns

1002
01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:11,300
some folks might have around

1003
01:17:11,300 --> 01:17:13,640
the quote unquote confiscation type things

1004
01:17:13,640 --> 01:17:15,680
where, again, if you don't have that,

1005
01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:18,240
there's no slippery slope like one plus one equals two.

1006
01:17:18,240 --> 01:17:25,500
We can understand what is monetary properties, what is sound monetary properties, what improves and what doesn't improve Bitcoin's quality is money.

1007
01:17:25,740 --> 01:17:28,400
There's no chance like OFAC compliance stuff.

1008
01:17:28,700 --> 01:17:34,760
Bitcoin has reacted to MaraMoney, who did that several years ago and was sent packing and stopped them.

1009
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:45,080
It was because the social layer and really the only real, like that layer reacted in the way it should and pushed, overtly resulted in them stopping that.

1010
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:48,500
And so the challenge is they haven't continued.

1011
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:54,360
Like the same reaction hasn't happened to spam and non-monetary data, ordinals, the scams there.

1012
01:17:54,540 --> 01:17:58,080
Partly, I think you have to look at not just the technical side, but the social side.

1013
01:17:58,220 --> 01:18:05,680
And so like devs are not operating in a vacuum, VCs, Brink, and others, which, you know, this goes into the conspiratorial side.

1014
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:07,160
But there's definitely self-interest there.

1015
01:18:07,300 --> 01:18:09,780
No strings doesn't mean no strings.

1016
01:18:09,780 --> 01:18:16,420
if you want to find local bitcoin communities other bitcoiners bitcoin merchants and bitcoin

1017
01:18:16,420 --> 01:18:21,980
events in your area there's no better way to do that than through the orange pill app wait a minute

1018
01:18:21,980 --> 01:18:27,880
it's not the orange pill app anymore it's club orange club orange is an omni app that includes

1019
01:18:27,880 --> 01:18:34,780
a lot of features including a list of events a wallet where you can send and receive sats over

1020
01:18:34,780 --> 01:18:40,180
the Lightning Network. You can even geosap areas so you can send sats to a whole bunch of people in

1021
01:18:40,180 --> 01:18:45,400
one single area. You can also tap sap while you're chatting to someone, which is a new feature that I

1022
01:18:45,400 --> 01:18:50,700
don't believe exists anywhere else. Overall, a fantastic app for connecting Bitcoiners all

1023
01:18:50,700 --> 01:18:56,640
around the world. So go to cluborange.org and sign up today. You won't regret it. It's not just a

1024
01:18:56,640 --> 01:19:03,000
gay dating app. It's everything else too. You can use it. Forget about that. Go and sign up.

1025
01:19:03,000 --> 01:19:09,060
cluborange.org. If you want to really secure your Bitcoin, you should check out the Bitcoin

1026
01:19:09,060 --> 01:19:14,600
Advisor. They have never lost a single set and they take care of your stack together with you.

1027
01:19:14,780 --> 01:19:19,260
They can't use your stack. That's impossible, but they can help you with inheritance planning.

1028
01:19:19,260 --> 01:19:24,260
They can help you huddle the Bitcoin long-term. So go to thebitcoinadvisor.com to find out more.

1029
01:19:24,700 --> 01:19:31,640
And brush your teeth. I'd say to the cat thing, just to comment on that one thing,

1030
01:19:31,640 --> 01:19:38,640
like what constitutes a valid transaction or not was never it was always up to the network what that

1031
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:44,760
was so so like this is the thing you have to keep in mind when because and i love that you went back

1032
01:19:44,760 --> 01:19:49,640
to conrad groff because our bitcoin's ownable because it all ties back to that the like

1033
01:19:49,640 --> 01:19:56,940
information is not ownable and the consensus in a distributed network is not something that is up

1034
01:19:56,940 --> 01:20:01,900
to you it is up to the network it is up to the network what bitcoin is and what bitcoin wants to

1035
01:20:01,900 --> 01:20:09,580
do and use it as at your own peril that is true for hodlers as well as spammers you decide how

1036
01:20:09,580 --> 01:20:16,500
much trust you want to put in the ability of bitcoiners to act as bitcoiners if you will to

1037
01:20:16,500 --> 01:20:22,500
to protect the network i mean it's it's something for everyone and for everyone to consider and this

1038
01:20:22,500 --> 01:20:34,460
The irony of it all is that the same mechanism that makes the spammers confident is the thing that makes hodlers less confident and vice versa.

1039
01:20:34,460 --> 01:20:43,840
If the hodlers can be confident that the network will throw out the spammers, then the spammers will feel less confident that their shit will last forever.

1040
01:20:44,020 --> 01:20:45,380
So there's a dynamic here.

1041
01:20:45,380 --> 01:20:55,340
And this is how Bitcoin actually works, regardless of what any technical person says, because at the end of the day, it's all about people choosing what software to run.

1042
01:20:56,180 --> 01:21:02,820
And sure, right now, it looks like an overwhelming amount of people choose to just upgrade without asking questions.

1043
01:21:03,100 --> 01:21:07,780
And that may or may not be the case in the future, but there's no 100% certainty here.

1044
01:21:08,040 --> 01:21:09,400
That's sort of the point.

1045
01:21:09,400 --> 01:21:15,560
the challenge is um where they annoyingly like you're you're building your effort like pointing

1046
01:21:15,560 --> 01:21:24,100
out the reality of of of what money is what bitcoin is what um spam is and educating in that

1047
01:21:24,100 --> 01:21:27,940
sense of like economic literacy and making those connections for people and you're building

1048
01:21:27,940 --> 01:21:33,980
consensus in a sense but some of the the chief spam enablers i've had discussions over time like

1049
01:21:33,980 --> 01:21:40,160
just can't get their head through like that you don't have consensus or whatever it's like

1050
01:21:40,160 --> 01:21:47,320
yeah well aware but like it's it's if understanding that i think bitcoin is money and and and bitcoiners

1051
01:21:47,320 --> 01:21:51,620
if you ask them and i've done the polls where it's you know small sample size but essentially

1052
01:21:51,620 --> 01:21:56,480
is bitcoin money or a database and like you know everyone's it's like 80 90 percent like no it's

1053
01:21:56,480 --> 01:22:00,600
money and so like that is what is accepted and it's like okay well these are the consequences

1054
01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:04,720
that everyone, it'd be different if you're trying to push shit up a hill, so to speak, where

1055
01:22:04,720 --> 01:22:10,360
you're going to network and then something is completely anathema to it and people disagree

1056
01:22:10,360 --> 01:22:14,800
completely and you're trying to change all that. It's like, no, no, no. From our perspective,

1057
01:22:15,160 --> 01:22:20,100
everyone, almost everyone agrees it's money. They pay lip service to it's money, even bad actors

1058
01:22:20,100 --> 01:22:27,100
or those who are economically literate understand the debate can't go on. They need to say it is,

1059
01:22:27,100 --> 01:22:37,140
Otherwise, they get immediately dismissed and no one gives a shit about their opinion because it's that ignorant and counter to what Bitcoin is.

1060
01:22:37,280 --> 01:22:41,100
It doesn't deserve a foot or an element of respect.

1061
01:22:42,300 --> 01:22:52,620
So that's the tactic I saw that has changed from the core side where instead of it's data, who cares if you're dick butts a dick butt.

1062
01:22:53,040 --> 01:22:55,260
Like, you know, it's not up to me first.

1063
01:22:55,260 --> 01:22:57,820
Like, no, they've lent heavily into, oh, yes, it is money.

1064
01:22:58,020 --> 01:22:58,960
Like add and back merch.

1065
01:22:59,040 --> 01:22:59,660
Yes, it is.

1066
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:03,340
And then you question, okay, we'll do a bit better than that, please.

1067
01:23:03,460 --> 01:23:03,920
Can you?

1068
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:06,520
And you get no, you don't.

1069
01:23:06,600 --> 01:23:10,540
Or there's this ignoring and you're heading in the sand type stuff

1070
01:23:10,540 --> 01:23:26,000
where demonstrated preference like a concept where you demonstrate your preference to action And so no they don care about its money Like they don Either it that or it that you know assuming good faith

1071
01:23:26,080 --> 01:23:27,080
it's their kind of literacy.

1072
01:23:27,260 --> 01:23:30,200
But then they don't ask the question around what is spam?

1073
01:23:30,320 --> 01:23:32,820
Like if that was actually true, where I see with merch and stuff

1074
01:23:32,820 --> 01:23:35,820
where, oh, their best faith is the opportunity

1075
01:23:35,820 --> 01:23:38,900
would put in this little box and like, okay, there's a bad actor here,

1076
01:23:38,900 --> 01:23:41,540
but you want to give them an easier place to be a bad actor.

1077
01:23:41,980 --> 01:23:45,160
It's like, well, no, you wouldn't say what is spam?

1078
01:23:45,160 --> 01:23:51,420
And like, you wouldn't like Peter Todd throwing that out, you know, to debates with Jimmy Song

1079
01:23:51,420 --> 01:23:51,880
and stuff.

1080
01:23:52,040 --> 01:23:54,620
Like that's a common narrative where they don't even really think it is.

1081
01:23:54,780 --> 01:23:55,100
Okay.

1082
01:23:55,100 --> 01:24:00,500
Then there's a push of like, well, it's not my role to deal with that type stuff.

1083
01:24:00,560 --> 01:24:01,460
And it's like, no, it is.

1084
01:24:01,560 --> 01:24:08,500
Like if the network, any network is getting DDoS by spam, like, and you should have an

1085
01:24:08,500 --> 01:24:14,020
incentive to improve that quality or stop it and filter it out and by whatever means necessary

1086
01:24:14,020 --> 01:24:18,940
that you know the trade-offs make sense um and i don't think there needs to be a trade-off per se

1087
01:24:18,940 --> 01:24:24,640
like for allowing monetary data non-monetary data on a monetary network like no go away

1088
01:24:24,640 --> 01:24:32,860
yeah i mean uh yeah i i had the pleasure of standing side by side with jimmy and debating

1089
01:24:32,860 --> 01:24:39,460
Peter Todd on the Demirage and Taylor Missions crap in Prague. And I think his ideas are just

1090
01:24:39,460 --> 01:24:46,580
so anti-Bitcoin ethos. It's just baffling to me that this guy has been here for that long time,

1091
01:24:46,580 --> 01:24:53,400
because as you said about mining before, there are plenty of incentives to mine that aren't

1092
01:24:53,400 --> 01:25:01,200
dependent on a block reward or even a block subsidy or anything like that. I mean, right now,

1093
01:25:01,200 --> 01:25:02,980
I'm mining while heating my home

1094
01:25:02,980 --> 01:25:05,080
but heating my home is

1095
01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:07,160
the primary use case for

1096
01:25:07,160 --> 01:25:08,480
that thing that

1097
01:25:08,480 --> 01:25:11,220
21 Energy gave me

1098
01:25:11,220 --> 01:25:12,940
beautiful thing by the way

1099
01:25:12,940 --> 01:25:15,100
thank you very much 21 Energy for giving

1100
01:25:15,100 --> 01:25:16,640
me the often too

1101
01:25:16,640 --> 01:25:17,660
home mining

1102
01:25:17,660 --> 01:25:20,420
home warming thing

1103
01:25:20,420 --> 01:25:23,000
but my primary use case

1104
01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:24,940
is just not being shit cold

1105
01:25:24,940 --> 01:25:26,900
in here because I live in the Mediterranean

1106
01:25:26,900 --> 01:25:28,480
houses aren't insulated

1107
01:25:28,480 --> 01:25:30,080
it's super cold

1108
01:25:31,020 --> 01:25:32,480
So it's great for that.

1109
01:25:32,880 --> 01:25:37,040
And the Bitcoin mining part of it is a bonus side effect.

1110
01:25:37,360 --> 01:25:40,560
And the thing is, the Bitcoin network is the security in it.

1111
01:25:40,640 --> 01:25:42,840
It's like orders of magnitude too big.

1112
01:25:43,000 --> 01:25:45,620
And the difficulty adjustment works both ways.

1113
01:25:45,960 --> 01:25:47,920
People think the hash rate can only go up.

1114
01:25:48,020 --> 01:25:50,680
And if it goes down a bit, that's disastrous.

1115
01:25:50,900 --> 01:25:51,560
But it isn't.

1116
01:25:51,560 --> 01:25:54,680
It takes two weeks and then it adjusts and it's fine.

1117
01:25:55,160 --> 01:25:56,660
Like, this is not a concern.

1118
01:25:57,260 --> 01:25:59,780
Sorry to jump in, but like, I know the strategic Bitcoin

1119
01:25:59,780 --> 01:26:05,560
reserve, like SBR, like whether that ships out or not. From my perspective, it's those who even

1120
01:26:05,560 --> 01:26:10,840
wanted it, like shouldn't. And so on this point, it's like, why would you want the separation money

1121
01:26:10,840 --> 01:26:17,540
in state? It's like, no, you want the state to be invested in Bitcoin or hold or own Bitcoin where

1122
01:26:17,540 --> 01:26:22,840
they're unjustifiable, but it's regardless. But then it's the corrupting factor of, well, okay,

1123
01:26:22,840 --> 01:26:31,840
if you're using taxpayer funds or an unlimited potential amount of funds to mine Bitcoin.

1124
01:26:32,400 --> 01:26:36,240
And so they can then have incentives to subsidize.

1125
01:26:36,240 --> 01:26:40,900
And what happens is that it crowds out the real Bitcoin owners and private plebs.

1126
01:26:41,340 --> 01:26:44,180
And so it's like instead of, say, the difficulty, the halving happens,

1127
01:26:44,600 --> 01:26:51,000
or instead of those certain types, so miners going offline and hash rate enabling,

1128
01:26:51,000 --> 01:26:55,020
well for those who are more efficient they can just keep mining and so the state is getting

1129
01:26:55,020 --> 01:26:59,820
rewards that they shouldn't although mining companies would get who are private owners and

1130
01:26:59,820 --> 01:27:05,980
then instead of that was a centralizing factor so that yeah what happens is mara basically

1131
01:27:05,980 --> 01:27:13,560
yeah yeah on mining like it's a flaw in the fiat system that allows that to be if if bitcoin miners

1132
01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:18,600
were bitcoiners they would value the satoshi more than the dollar and they wouldn't like like but the

1133
01:27:18,600 --> 01:27:27,920
The flaw in the fiat system is that they can get these artificially low interest rates because of fucking money manipulation, which is the problem we're trying to solve.

1134
01:27:28,500 --> 01:27:30,080
Like, so it's so ironic.

1135
01:27:30,820 --> 01:27:31,660
Yeah, 100%.

1136
01:27:31,660 --> 01:27:39,820
And it's like, I don't think a lot of Bitcoiners kind of understand that or those who are supporting SBR, like, clearly don't.

1137
01:27:39,820 --> 01:27:43,840
Like in terms of there's a one step of, okay, allowing the state to hold on Bitcoin.

1138
01:27:44,520 --> 01:27:48,860
And then the next step is nation state mining.

1139
01:27:49,640 --> 01:27:56,460
And I just against that in the same vein that, okay, to what extent that they're still mining

1140
01:27:56,460 --> 01:28:00,560
and those rewards are going to the state when they should be going to others.

1141
01:28:00,680 --> 01:28:01,520
And yeah, absolutely right.

1142
01:28:01,640 --> 01:28:03,240
Like business cycles, right?

1143
01:28:03,340 --> 01:28:07,960
We have central banks can create business cycles.

1144
01:28:07,960 --> 01:28:12,060
So like artificial interest rates, you know, spurs, consumption or malinvestment.

1145
01:28:12,300 --> 01:28:17,020
And there's a settlement of maybe that those funds go, they don't go everywhere evenly.

1146
01:28:17,020 --> 01:28:20,860
So they, the Cantillian effect, but maybe that goes to Bitcoin mining.

1147
01:28:21,000 --> 01:28:27,520
And so like a bubble or not or whatever it is, but there's an absolutely a potential

1148
01:28:27,520 --> 01:28:30,920
impact on Bitcoin inadvertently through still the fiat system.

1149
01:28:30,920 --> 01:28:33,020
So it's like something that I think gets overlooked.

1150
01:28:33,520 --> 01:28:37,220
But the last thing I want to do as a state to take a foot in the door in that direction.

1151
01:28:37,220 --> 01:28:43,240
It's like, for example, yeah, like Ross Ulbricht getting pardoned or whatnot.

1152
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:46,340
It's like, well, he should all get all his money, his Bitcoin back.

1153
01:28:46,560 --> 01:28:48,140
Like, that's the only justifiable piece.

1154
01:28:48,260 --> 01:28:53,600
Not folks talking about him getting a strategic, using the state has that and uses strategic Bitcoin reserves.

1155
01:28:53,740 --> 01:28:59,220
It's like, well, no, you've stolen, you've essentially stolen his stuff and the drug war, whatever it is.

1156
01:28:59,220 --> 01:29:13,760
No, and the fact that most of the Bitcoins were mined the first four years, like the halving cycle, is beautiful because that's what prevents the state from now capturing this thing.

1157
01:29:13,760 --> 01:29:28,380
If the rewards were as big, it was 50 new Bitcoins every 10 minutes forever, like the Peter Todd thing, the tail emissions, that would enable the state to print money to take over the network in the long run.

1158
01:29:28,380 --> 01:29:39,480
Like, they probably can print money to take over all mining now, but they can't stop Bitcoin at this point because the fact that most of the coins have already been mined.

1159
01:29:39,540 --> 01:29:40,560
And it's a beautiful thing.

1160
01:29:41,260 --> 01:29:43,180
So, no, it's...

1161
01:29:43,180 --> 01:29:49,640
And this whole notion of pandering to politicians, I find it revolting on every single...

1162
01:29:49,640 --> 01:29:54,160
Like, Bitcoin is for enemies, yes, but that doesn't mean I like my enemies.

1163
01:29:54,380 --> 01:29:57,020
I don't want my enemies to have Bitcoin.

1164
01:29:57,020 --> 01:29:58,760
I don't want them to have any money.

1165
01:29:59,420 --> 01:30:01,200
Everyone's missing that from their equation.

1166
01:30:01,320 --> 01:30:03,000
Why would you want the state to have Bitcoin?

1167
01:30:03,120 --> 01:30:04,080
Are you fucking mad?

1168
01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:08,520
Fortunately, Not Your Keys, Not Your Coins applies to states too.

1169
01:30:08,660 --> 01:30:12,760
So it's some guy at Coinbase that actually owns the Bitcoin and not the state.

1170
01:30:13,280 --> 01:30:16,620
And some guy at Coinbase owns all the MicroStrategy's Bitcoins too.

1171
01:30:18,420 --> 01:30:18,860
Yep.

1172
01:30:19,560 --> 01:30:22,380
Your keys, your coins, right?

1173
01:30:23,800 --> 01:30:25,360
Again, this is the thing.

1174
01:30:25,360 --> 01:30:30,640
The problem that Bitcoin solves, like so not needing trusted third parties, like financial

1175
01:30:30,640 --> 01:30:31,380
institutions.

1176
01:30:31,600 --> 01:30:34,340
So if you don't have the private keys, you don't have effective control.

1177
01:30:34,600 --> 01:30:37,320
You don't essentially own that Bitcoin.

1178
01:30:37,420 --> 01:30:38,520
So like ETFs and all that.

1179
01:30:38,580 --> 01:30:42,800
And this is a threat of fiduciary media where it's a trusted third parties.

1180
01:30:42,940 --> 01:30:46,900
It's essentially that you're reintroducing the problem that Bitcoin solved.

1181
01:30:47,520 --> 01:30:51,620
And the threat that people talk about paper Bitcoin, paper gold, right?

1182
01:30:51,620 --> 01:30:58,320
Like, you know, essentially fractional banking, how the state had sound money of enough and got corrupted.

1183
01:30:58,700 --> 01:31:02,900
And then the threat is like one Bitcoin will be one Bitcoin.

1184
01:31:03,360 --> 01:31:10,440
But it's like if the market starts treating the ETFs and whatever else and others as Bitcoin itself, there's a risk there.

1185
01:31:10,560 --> 01:31:13,840
And then, yes, like there's an impact on oil as being equal.

1186
01:31:14,220 --> 01:31:17,640
There's more funds, more Bitcoin out there than there actually is.

1187
01:31:17,640 --> 01:31:21,940
although there isn't, but it's being treated by others as if it is, right?

1188
01:31:22,120 --> 01:31:26,080
So, and there's a meme I saw recently where it's kind of like 2028,

1189
01:31:26,740 --> 01:31:30,260
like looking at the screen and it's like, what the hell?

1190
01:31:30,360 --> 01:31:34,680
Where like the current on-chain number of Bitcoin and ETF and exchanges

1191
01:31:34,680 --> 01:31:36,480
is like more than 21 million or whatever.

1192
01:31:37,060 --> 01:31:39,060
And just like, okay, in that point though,

1193
01:31:39,140 --> 01:31:41,000
at least there's an element of a run on the,

1194
01:31:41,340 --> 01:31:43,200
like there used to be a run on the banks, right?

1195
01:31:43,200 --> 01:31:47,920
where, okay, do you actually have my savings in my savings deposit,

1196
01:31:48,180 --> 01:31:49,480
my checking account?

1197
01:31:49,740 --> 01:31:50,660
I'm going to go to the bank.

1198
01:31:50,740 --> 01:31:52,660
I get out my money before anyone else does.

1199
01:31:52,860 --> 01:31:56,780
And so at that point, it's like, okay, well, how much is there?

1200
01:31:57,340 --> 01:31:59,240
Who actually has Bitcoin?

1201
01:31:59,700 --> 01:32:00,740
Who's just got it on paper?

1202
01:32:01,240 --> 01:32:03,300
And we see that already with FTX,

1203
01:32:03,420 --> 01:32:05,220
where that happened several years back, right?

1204
01:32:05,340 --> 01:32:07,620
Would that suppress the price for a bull run?

1205
01:32:07,900 --> 01:32:10,840
Because they had extensive amounts of billions

1206
01:32:10,840 --> 01:32:12,520
that they weren't actually selling,

1207
01:32:12,520 --> 01:32:15,220
I didn't actually have, I weren't buying, but we're representing as.

1208
01:32:15,360 --> 01:32:24,860
So it's like, that's one of the biggest threats to Bitcoin is it's got to have this ethos of like, you don't have Bitcoin if you don't have the private keys.

1209
01:32:25,280 --> 01:32:29,000
Like at best you have a money certificate, like it's a money substitute.

1210
01:32:29,260 --> 01:32:32,960
It's like a money certificate, which is one-to-one, which is like you claim it and you get it.

1211
01:32:33,220 --> 01:32:38,200
The worst is fiduciary media where you claim it and it's not backed and you don't actually have it.

1212
01:32:38,580 --> 01:32:40,040
You don't get it, which is, yeah.

1213
01:32:40,880 --> 01:32:42,340
No, I totally agree.

1214
01:32:42,520 --> 01:32:47,560
This is true for all custodial wallets, basically, and especially all custodial lightning wallets.

1215
01:32:47,560 --> 01:32:52,020
It's super easy to do fractional reserve banking on custodial lightning.

1216
01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:57,840
But the beauty is it's still more limited than it was on gold.

1217
01:32:57,840 --> 01:33:04,440
Like on gold, you could do it forever because there was no way for people to verify how much gold there actually was.

1218
01:33:05,000 --> 01:33:08,400
But with Bitcoin, people can and do check that all the time.

1219
01:33:08,400 --> 01:33:12,740
So they can verify that there aren't more than 21 million.

1220
01:33:13,040 --> 01:33:17,760
So paper bitcoins, I think they're going to exist for a long time,

1221
01:33:17,980 --> 01:33:20,280
or if not forever, but it's way harder.

1222
01:33:20,500 --> 01:33:24,120
You need a bigger fraction than in regular fraction.

1223
01:33:24,280 --> 01:33:25,140
Would you agree to that?

1224
01:33:26,820 --> 01:33:28,580
So last part, you need a bigger fraction.

1225
01:33:29,900 --> 01:33:34,500
Yeah, than you did back in the days of fractional reserve banking on gold.

1226
01:33:34,500 --> 01:33:37,140
Oh, to keep it safe per se, so there's no...

1227
01:33:37,140 --> 01:33:38,920
Safe for the bad actor.

1228
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:43,740
I agree that it's like the digital element where verifying that,

1229
01:33:43,980 --> 01:33:47,800
like there's Peter Schiff getting, I think, on stage a gold brick

1230
01:33:47,800 --> 01:33:50,260
and it's like it's Chinese tungsten underneath there

1231
01:33:50,260 --> 01:33:51,940
or whatever it is like painted over.

1232
01:33:52,100 --> 01:33:52,940
Like how do you verify?

1233
01:33:53,180 --> 01:33:56,780
And then Bitcoin provides that crypto verification of sorts

1234
01:33:56,780 --> 01:33:59,720
where don't trust verify, there's a reason for that.

1235
01:34:00,140 --> 01:34:01,800
So cryptographically we can verify.

1236
01:34:02,440 --> 01:34:03,200
And then with Lightning,

1237
01:34:03,400 --> 01:34:06,720
like Lightning is being treated as a perfect money substitute.

1238
01:34:07,140 --> 01:34:12,340
So the market considers Bitcoin, like there's Bitcoin units and then there's lightning units,

1239
01:34:12,340 --> 01:34:15,320
but they're being treated as a perfect money substitute is like the equivalent,

1240
01:34:15,580 --> 01:34:22,860
essentially the equivalent. Now, liquid, so LBTC, isn't treated like one-to-one,

1241
01:34:22,980 --> 01:34:26,980
like as a perfect money substitute because there's that reintroduction of trust, right?

1242
01:34:26,980 --> 01:34:32,840
There's a federation and like, okay, to what extent, but it wouldn't be not as liquid.

1243
01:34:32,840 --> 01:34:35,660
or essentially it's not being treated as one-to-one.

1244
01:34:36,980 --> 01:34:41,860
And so I think interesting long-term is like if Lightning were to reduce its quality as a money

1245
01:34:41,860 --> 01:34:46,400
substitute where it's like essentially one-to-one, it's like a money certificate essentially.

1246
01:34:46,700 --> 01:34:51,260
But then if there's, I don't know, particularly the technicals, but casual, there's some things

1247
01:34:51,260 --> 01:34:56,400
where there's potentially like within Lightning or more shit coins on Lightning or reducing the

1248
01:34:56,400 --> 01:35:01,800
quality in that way. Or if there was become like fiduciary media of sorts within Lightning for

1249
01:35:01,800 --> 01:35:06,280
different platforms that are things are being represented as they're you know you have a money

1250
01:35:06,280 --> 01:35:10,440
certificate and you don't actually then yeah there's a there's a risk like in the further away

1251
01:35:10,440 --> 01:35:16,760
that is from the main bitcoin like on chain i think uh the better but yeah it's it's you it's

1252
01:35:16,760 --> 01:35:23,480
pre it's like i think that's why we need to be so overtly clear and what the problem is and what it

1253
01:35:23,480 --> 01:35:29,400
is like how money solves and how bitcoin solves it and if you don't understand like you don't feel

1254
01:35:29,400 --> 01:35:34,740
it's like this in the white paper it's a call out from satoshi it's the clear-cut innovation

1255
01:35:34,740 --> 01:35:42,260
that's enabled if you just paper over that or minimize that um you know i think for like variety

1256
01:35:42,260 --> 01:35:47,540
of reasons then that's a real threat and attack vector and risk and again coming back to the

1257
01:35:47,540 --> 01:35:52,240
consensus there consensus from understanding of it's like bitcoin is need to be able to maintain

1258
01:35:52,240 --> 01:35:58,360
that and part of the core is like yes as we grow mass like masses improve and like the cyberpunks

1259
01:35:58,360 --> 01:36:04,760
those who are early adopters more keenly attuned to then those that are down the track the ux is so

1260
01:36:04,760 --> 01:36:09,560
easy you don't need to know anything you don't need to read you know basic stuff to understand

1261
01:36:09,560 --> 01:36:15,880
like well that's just what it is like i don't need to um you know it's just so common and this here's

1262
01:36:15,880 --> 01:36:20,840
scanner well i need to understand monetary stuff or whatever it just works as we slowly progress

1263
01:36:20,840 --> 01:36:27,880
to that point um ideally it's like it's the value problem being becoming hard to change is is is a

1264
01:36:27,880 --> 01:36:34,840
positive the challenge is that those that are in have the most sway not holding not not living up

1265
01:36:34,840 --> 01:36:38,920
to the end of the bargain per se or through economic illiteracy and whether that's just like

1266
01:36:38,920 --> 01:36:45,880
devs who've like who were ogs have um numbers gone up and like have checked out and on a beach

1267
01:36:45,880 --> 01:36:52,040
enjoying it but i during their time but then i feel a lot of like nick sabo for instance has gone

1268
01:36:52,040 --> 01:36:54,800
poked their head up and gone, wait, what?

1269
01:36:54,800 --> 01:36:57,720
F like is happening current state.

1270
01:36:57,720 --> 01:36:59,420
You're trying to do what?

1271
01:36:59,420 --> 01:37:03,600
And again, you're always forced to come back and try and right the ship.

1272
01:37:03,600 --> 01:37:05,340
It's always up to the plebs.

1273
01:37:05,340 --> 01:37:20,360
So it like one day can be seen as the captains of the ship the devs which I feel like they are but it it has this quote where it like it no the consumers are king the end user the node runners are the king where essentially

1274
01:37:20,360 --> 01:37:27,640
it's like, we decide what chain essentially is going to be, like what is money? What is the

1275
01:37:28,200 --> 01:37:35,640
considered Bitcoin like long-term? So it's better that they understand that or stop,

1276
01:37:35,640 --> 01:37:41,360
stop, I guess, making decisions around like that aren't improving Bitcoin's quality as

1277
01:37:41,360 --> 01:37:42,360
money.

1278
01:37:42,360 --> 01:37:46,520
But yeah, I know they think they are, but I don't.

1279
01:37:46,520 --> 01:37:51,700
So what would you say to those that think this problem solves itself, that the spammers

1280
01:37:51,700 --> 01:37:57,700
will price themselves out and that you can only fool people for that long and after that,

1281
01:37:57,700 --> 01:37:58,880
there will be no more spam?

1282
01:37:58,880 --> 01:38:02,640
I mean, people who say that this, it's a temporary problem, basically.

1283
01:38:02,640 --> 01:38:05,620
Yeah, I try and get it at one point.

1284
01:38:05,640 --> 01:38:10,940
like how, like get them on record, I often say is like when, and, but, but it's even,

1285
01:38:11,340 --> 01:38:17,260
it's often they talk about fees, like, oh, it's like as if high fees, you know, mattered and

1286
01:38:17,260 --> 01:38:23,240
like those times have gone. Yeah. As if it's a good thing. Yeah. And it's, but it's, it's a

1287
01:38:23,240 --> 01:38:27,820
relevant, like from a, I don't care about high fees per se, like if it's for monetary use,

1288
01:38:27,820 --> 01:38:32,200
like if it's from, as a result of that, and obviously medium exchange, the lower,

1289
01:38:32,200 --> 01:38:38,040
transactional cost per se, the better all else being equal. But it's like, why is that? Is it

1290
01:38:38,040 --> 01:38:43,140
because of use, because of your on-chain transactions? Like, yes, Lightning exists to

1291
01:38:43,140 --> 01:38:48,040
help scale and it's being treated as a monetary substitute, like a perfect money substitute. So

1292
01:38:48,040 --> 01:38:54,740
be it. But pricing yourself out, I think you could, they're playing a different game.

1293
01:38:55,340 --> 01:39:00,080
And this is a thing that a lot of people get where, and I've done the polls, it's like, look,

1294
01:39:00,080 --> 01:39:10,000
Back in those days when the fees were high, it's like asking Bitcoiners, no runners, have you held back from making transactions that you otherwise would have?

1295
01:39:10,220 --> 01:39:14,880
Because you are potentially paying 200 to 200 times more than you otherwise would.

1296
01:39:15,560 --> 01:39:19,500
Has that had an impact on your sending transactions using Bitcoin?

1297
01:39:19,920 --> 01:39:21,620
And the answer is like 85% yes.

1298
01:39:21,620 --> 01:39:29,380
and it's like well yeah why would i feel you know if i have to compete with junk and dick butts and

1299
01:39:29,380 --> 01:39:34,280
on my toe stuff i'm gonna i'm not gonna send that transaction if unless i really need to i'm gonna

1300
01:39:34,900 --> 01:39:39,700
you know consolidate my utxos to down the track when it dies down or whatever attempt to try and

1301
01:39:39,700 --> 01:39:45,320
get a lesser fee but the point is you are they are crowding it out and why would you not want to

1302
01:39:45,320 --> 01:39:52,040
increase the cost or try and mitigate those bad actors, those ignorant actors or whoever it is

1303
01:39:52,040 --> 01:39:58,780
from using Bitcoin and crowding out real Bitcoins. And it is that analogy of like Bitcoin's a chess

1304
01:39:58,780 --> 01:40:05,200
club because they're monetary only. And essentially you have checkers players in there, right? Who

1305
01:40:05,200 --> 01:40:12,340
are trying to spruik checkers in the chess club. And it's like some of these spam enablers like,

1306
01:40:12,340 --> 01:40:17,520
oh i just let him go let him chat let him like get on a megaphone have a dick butt you know party

1307
01:40:17,520 --> 01:40:24,880
um and in the chess club and it's like well hang on no like why if we could like they're breaking

1308
01:40:24,880 --> 01:40:30,200
the rules but even if you they've found a loophole we're going to close that loophole and kick them

1309
01:40:30,200 --> 01:40:35,300
out um because what's going to happen to the quality of long term of the chess club if if

1310
01:40:35,300 --> 01:40:40,620
you've got checkers players in there ruining being loud obnoxious and whatever it is and the answer

1311
01:40:40,620 --> 01:40:49,440
isn't, well, make it a games club. It's like, no, it's a chess club. And the theory behind this,

1312
01:40:49,640 --> 01:40:56,860
so Conrad Graff has another article is around block size that it dived into, but it talks about

1313
01:40:56,860 --> 01:41:05,180
consensus. It's like a public club, but code enhanced governance. It's not like law, but it's

1314
01:41:05,180 --> 01:41:09,160
essentially, it's like a chess club, a public club, anyone can join. You do need to use your

1315
01:41:09,160 --> 01:41:14,320
private property to have a say. So like running a node, mining and engaging in that way. But part

1316
01:41:14,320 --> 01:41:19,020
of the club, there's the rules or the consensus piece to it. And so it's like, all right, well,

1317
01:41:19,140 --> 01:41:26,320
what are the rules or you want to buy by here? And everyone, bad actors included, often concede

1318
01:41:26,320 --> 01:41:30,880
it's money. So that's what we need to, we've got a whole rich field of knowledge, which can help

1319
01:41:30,880 --> 01:41:36,200
inform what those rules should be. And then it's elements of like, yes, trying to convince others

1320
01:41:36,200 --> 01:41:43,320
with the BIP10, 110, the cat or whatever it is when we don't necessarily have, it's like

1321
01:41:43,320 --> 01:41:49,700
the chess checkers, the chess club board has gone AWOL a little bit.

1322
01:41:50,360 --> 01:41:55,080
And so it's like, all right, as chess players, we need to, yes, run knots, which is like

1323
01:41:55,080 --> 01:42:01,020
almost a different client, obviously same, still part of Bitcoin because that board isn't

1324
01:42:01,020 --> 01:42:06,960
chess itself. Like if that chess club goes down per se, it's not, there's still chess clubs out,

1325
01:42:06,980 --> 01:42:11,940
other chess clubs out there. But the thing with Bitcoin, there is only that one monetary network

1326
01:42:11,940 --> 01:42:17,300
that is like, that's the purpose of money. It's competing those commodities, rivalries,

1327
01:42:17,360 --> 01:42:19,600
which is the point of this, but Bitcoin is, but other commodities competing,

1328
01:42:19,940 --> 01:42:23,840
Bitcoin competing against all other monetary economic goods. And it's becoming, I think,

1329
01:42:23,840 --> 01:42:30,820
the most salable given it's what it is and the benefits of that. So like often I can be seen

1330
01:42:30,820 --> 01:42:38,420
is shitting on core and the current piece, but there's no, compared to what, still the

1331
01:42:38,420 --> 01:42:42,260
fact that Bitcoin is there, it's not going into fiat.

1332
01:42:42,260 --> 01:42:43,880
Are you crazy?

1333
01:42:43,880 --> 01:42:50,580
Given what's coming, all the net negatives of gold still compared to.

1334
01:42:50,580 --> 01:42:58,140
So this is a challenge we're faced with where we need to look to right the ship as consumers,

1335
01:42:58,140 --> 01:43:05,660
the kings as the no runners um loudly state um what we support and you do that by action and yeah

1336
01:43:05,660 --> 01:43:12,780
it's it's it's running knots it's it's bit um it's running it's supporting the cat um uh theoretically

1337
01:43:12,780 --> 01:43:22,380
or practically um it's it's supporting bit 110 um if needed and then um yeah mining with ocean or

1338
01:43:22,380 --> 01:43:27,700
using datum, using your own, putting your own blocks and just decentralizing mining,

1339
01:43:27,820 --> 01:43:29,560
which is another big threat attack vector.

1340
01:43:30,400 --> 01:43:30,840
Absolutely.

1341
01:43:31,260 --> 01:43:34,040
That's a soundbite right there, I think.

1342
01:43:35,560 --> 01:43:43,580
So, yeah, I love the chess analogy because I think there are many, the game of chess

1343
01:43:43,580 --> 01:43:46,280
is similar to Bitcoin in very many ways.

1344
01:43:46,280 --> 01:43:53,800
The latest change to the chess rules is en passant, which is like 1,100 years old or something.

1345
01:43:55,080 --> 01:44:02,040
And it's very similar to chess in that sense that chess is also just an agreement on a fixed set of rules.

1346
01:44:02,940 --> 01:44:11,200
And the reason we agree on those rules is because then we can have this wonderful game where we can act together in ways that we like.

1347
01:44:11,200 --> 01:44:12,760
Bitcoin is exactly the same.

1348
01:44:12,940 --> 01:44:18,980
We can act as if we own this money when it's money was never anything but information.

1349
01:44:19,140 --> 01:44:20,520
Bitcoin sort of pointed it out.

1350
01:44:21,080 --> 01:44:31,280
And like you say with the checkers thing, if ChessDot all of a sudden started adding a policy that checkers pieces are now allowed on chess boards,

1351
01:44:31,280 --> 01:44:37,160
what would happen is that they'd lose a certain amount of players and players would go somewhere else to play chess.

1352
01:44:37,160 --> 01:44:42,560
That's perfectly analogous with core and knots and what's going on in Bitcoin.

1353
01:44:42,820 --> 01:44:48,000
Like you can do fiddle around to a certain extent, but you will find out.

1354
01:44:48,080 --> 01:44:51,700
The more you fuck around, the more you find out is basically what it is.

1355
01:44:51,840 --> 01:44:56,520
No, so I think chess is very analogous to Bitcoin in many ways.

1356
01:44:56,700 --> 01:45:00,920
And when done properly, and when we all have consensus around this fixed set of rules,

1357
01:45:01,040 --> 01:45:02,260
we get something beautiful.

1358
01:45:02,260 --> 01:45:12,760
And also the chessboard and the pieces, just like the nodes, the software, the miners, the hardware, they're just tools to help us intellectualize things.

1359
01:45:12,760 --> 01:45:16,340
It's not really a node and a miner.

1360
01:45:16,560 --> 01:45:19,300
It's just a fancy abacus that helps us do the calculation.

1361
01:45:20,160 --> 01:45:22,480
But at the end of the day, it's all in our heads.

1362
01:45:22,600 --> 01:45:32,600
It's all us expressing appreciation to one another through beautiful mathematics that makes it harder to cheat the system than to follow the rules, right?

1363
01:45:32,860 --> 01:45:35,480
So there's so much to that.

1364
01:45:35,480 --> 01:45:45,380
And like when you have that rich philosophical foundation when thinking about these things, I think it's much easier to understand what it is and what it isn't.

1365
01:45:45,460 --> 01:45:48,380
It's also to understand that it's not perfect.

1366
01:45:48,660 --> 01:45:52,860
It could never be perfect, arguably, because human beings are flawed.

1367
01:45:53,080 --> 01:45:55,800
It's sort of good enough to last forever.

1368
01:45:56,020 --> 01:46:00,800
And that's all it always needed to be because that makes it better than fiat and makes it better than gold.

1369
01:46:00,800 --> 01:46:08,280
so yeah and uh yeah i think personally think we'll we'll survive the spam attacks we'll survive the

1370
01:46:08,280 --> 01:46:13,780
whatever attacks we'll survive them because we'll stay vigilant we'll win some battles and lose

1371
01:46:13,780 --> 01:46:19,900
what some but in the long run we will win because if you don't think that then then we definitely

1372
01:46:19,900 --> 01:46:26,400
won't win like there's this pascal's wager of optimism sort of speak like if you don't believe

1373
01:46:26,400 --> 01:46:32,400
this will work then there's no chance it will like you have to you have to be positive and you

1374
01:46:32,400 --> 01:46:38,180
have to be optimistic and hopeful when looking at it because otherwise what the fuck are you doing

1375
01:46:38,180 --> 01:46:45,320
like rage quit then that's it and it's like not optimistic um you know our understanding of like

1376
01:46:45,320 --> 01:46:51,120
you know economics but like mises talks about like optimistic fatalism being a massive threat

1377
01:46:51,120 --> 01:46:55,940
where it's just like understanding that and this is what everything is good for bitcoin type trope

1378
01:46:55,940 --> 01:47:01,580
kind of leans into where it's like a kind of a inoculating, okay, oh, there's, you know,

1379
01:47:01,580 --> 01:47:08,060
spam's happening, but hey, and often the case is like, well, I'm a spam enabler. I've got buddies

1380
01:47:08,060 --> 01:47:13,360
who are doing it. I'm like kind of posting this trope to like, don't worry about it. It's just

1381
01:47:13,360 --> 01:47:18,820
going to sort itself out. Let a quote unquote in brackets, you know, my point, like let us scam in

1382
01:47:18,820 --> 01:47:25,440
peace or let my friends scam in peace in a way. It's like, no, no, no. Where is the viral visceral

1383
01:47:25,440 --> 01:47:32,700
reaction of Bitcoiners where they used to be. And nothing toxic about it in my book,

1384
01:47:32,780 --> 01:47:37,720
it's a passionately principled understanding. No, I'm a Bitcoiner. The reason why I'm a

1385
01:47:37,720 --> 01:47:43,620
maximalist is because I understand the simple fact that Bitcoin is competing against all other

1386
01:47:43,620 --> 01:47:48,540
commodities and it's the best given its monetary properties. And then as that competition happens,

1387
01:47:48,540 --> 01:47:55,940
is going to be, you tend towards one, that one thing, which is one commodity, which is money,

1388
01:47:56,040 --> 01:48:01,580
the most saleable good in society. And so if you are going to be doing anything to reduce that

1389
01:48:01,580 --> 01:48:07,920
quality, I'm going to arc up about it. I've got this life savings, like this sworn article back

1390
01:48:07,920 --> 01:48:11,780
in the day about you're dipping your toe in and then you're knee deep and now you're snorkeling

1391
01:48:11,780 --> 01:48:18,080
in debt. So I think the plebs have that conviction and that's through economic literacy and the

1392
01:48:18,080 --> 01:48:22,520
Bitcoin standard approach where you get that where a lot of the quote unquote the devs,

1393
01:48:22,520 --> 01:48:28,840
I think it is being behind the scenes, them knowing to say potential fragility that the

1394
01:48:28,840 --> 01:48:33,820
system has given various inflective Mac Corella with like the inflation bug in like 2018 or

1395
01:48:33,820 --> 01:48:38,340
whatever, like that guy had to get picked up by some Bcash dev or whatever to indicate

1396
01:48:38,340 --> 01:48:39,920
like that's a risk there.

1397
01:48:40,000 --> 01:48:45,200
And it's like if you're putting your life savings plus into that stuff and you see those

1398
01:48:45,200 --> 01:48:51,240
firsthand what what others are doing it become a it's hard to do and i thought for a lot of them

1399
01:48:51,240 --> 01:48:57,480
like yeah there's public things of peter todd selling his bitcoin and like like selling it

1400
01:48:57,480 --> 01:49:02,740
50 of it or whatever like publicly in like 2012 or whatever and and then and when you understand

1401
01:49:02,740 --> 01:49:07,940
that it's like lacking that conviction just getting paid and whatnot it's like well is that

1402
01:49:07,940 --> 01:49:14,620
partly why he's he's say bitter and hanging around or it's the fact that he's um uh you know taking

1403
01:49:14,620 --> 01:49:23,420
solana posting like getting five thousand dollars like from a solana to do a solana ad it's like

1404
01:49:23,420 --> 01:49:28,840
zero integrity and like how how how you know you don't he's admitted he doesn't have any

1405
01:49:28,840 --> 01:49:33,400
significant assets so it's like they don't have the skin in the game as much as or he's satoshi

1406
01:49:33,400 --> 01:49:40,780
and this is just the perfect alibi well i i think that the satoshi i think and this is like i see

1407
01:49:40,780 --> 01:49:41,780
Hal Finney as well.

1408
01:49:41,960 --> 01:49:42,300
It's like,

1409
01:49:42,440 --> 01:49:42,800
um,

1410
01:49:43,260 --> 01:49:44,560
it's the,

1411
01:49:44,560 --> 01:49:46,260
the clearest distinction I have.

1412
01:49:46,600 --> 01:49:47,040
Why,

1413
01:49:47,100 --> 01:49:48,580
how it wasn't Satoshi is,

1414
01:49:48,580 --> 01:49:51,940
is so how supporting like fractional reserve banking and like talking about

1415
01:49:51,940 --> 01:49:52,900
George Selgin where,

1416
01:49:52,960 --> 01:49:53,420
yeah,

1417
01:49:53,680 --> 01:49:56,620
because it's like actively calling out fractional reserve banking and

1418
01:49:56,620 --> 01:49:58,500
the business cycle being created.

1419
01:49:58,880 --> 01:49:59,200
Um,

1420
01:49:59,200 --> 01:50:00,680
and also the element of fixed money supply,

1421
01:50:00,780 --> 01:50:05,140
like all that is the only re and you had cryptocurrencies before,

1422
01:50:05,140 --> 01:50:05,940
um,

1423
01:50:06,040 --> 01:50:07,420
Bitcoin that like didn't work,

1424
01:50:07,420 --> 01:50:07,960
but it's like,

1425
01:50:07,960 --> 01:50:08,960
what was the difference?

1426
01:50:08,960 --> 01:50:10,340
Like the center of alignment,

1427
01:50:10,340 --> 01:50:14,300
but also the fixed supply being a key differentiator there.

1428
01:50:14,680 --> 01:50:18,420
And there's only one economic school of thought that gets you there

1429
01:50:18,420 --> 01:50:19,720
and that's the Austrian school.

1430
01:50:20,160 --> 01:50:23,980
And so like coming back to the Venn diagram or whatever it is,

1431
01:50:24,080 --> 01:50:26,320
like having someone who's both, that was Satoshi.

1432
01:50:26,520 --> 01:50:30,080
He had the tech skills and he's the engineer, the dev,

1433
01:50:30,160 --> 01:50:34,340
but also learnt the monetary element and why that was such important.

1434
01:50:34,340 --> 01:50:37,500
And combining that together gave us the gift that is Bitcoin.

1435
01:50:37,500 --> 01:50:42,940
And so the cause for concern is as that's progressed, there's those who are openly like

1436
01:50:42,940 --> 01:50:45,160
literally got the $5 trillion asset.

1437
01:50:45,460 --> 01:50:47,100
You've got five people who can push code.

1438
01:50:47,500 --> 01:50:51,500
And one of them is overtly like no idea about what money is.

1439
01:50:51,560 --> 01:50:53,580
I can't talk about Bitcoin from a monetary perspective.

1440
01:50:53,920 --> 01:50:54,840
And it's just wild.

1441
01:50:55,420 --> 01:50:59,920
And it's like, surely there's given the number of people out there that having Bitcoin thrown

1442
01:50:59,920 --> 01:51:05,640
at them, they at least can understand some very basic stuff about it from monetary perspective

1443
01:51:05,640 --> 01:51:06,200
because it's a requirement.

1444
01:51:06,240 --> 01:51:08,980
because it's humanity's best chance at freedom money.

1445
01:51:09,440 --> 01:51:12,700
Like it boggles my mind that anyone can credibly get up there

1446
01:51:12,700 --> 01:51:15,800
and say they're technical when they're operating on something

1447
01:51:15,800 --> 01:51:18,220
that is money and they don't know anything about it.

1448
01:51:18,720 --> 01:51:19,660
Like this is wild.

1449
01:51:19,940 --> 01:51:21,960
But, yeah, that's where we're at.

1450
01:51:22,080 --> 01:51:26,380
So, like even with that, it's like, yeah, it's still a concern,

1451
01:51:26,500 --> 01:51:30,100
but we've got to leap into action, do the things that you can do

1452
01:51:30,100 --> 01:51:33,080
individually, and pipe up where it matters.

1453
01:51:33,080 --> 01:51:35,400
but yeah it's still better than

1454
01:51:35,400 --> 01:51:37,000
than fiat and

1455
01:51:37,000 --> 01:51:39,320
and gold so yeah it's

1456
01:51:39,320 --> 01:51:41,180
like speaking long term so

1457
01:51:41,180 --> 01:51:43,360
yes we've got some work to do

1458
01:51:43,360 --> 01:51:45,360
but and

1459
01:51:45,360 --> 01:51:46,260
it's more of like

1460
01:51:46,260 --> 01:51:49,100
it's like we've got to, so it's either us

1461
01:51:49,100 --> 01:51:51,220
the plebs getting doing

1462
01:51:51,220 --> 01:51:53,260
the technical work like getting skilled

1463
01:51:53,260 --> 01:51:55,100
up and that should happen regardless

1464
01:51:55,100 --> 01:51:57,140
but some way it's also

1465
01:51:57,140 --> 01:51:59,300
the current dev crop

1466
01:51:59,300 --> 01:52:01,100
need to learn some basic economics

1467
01:52:01,100 --> 01:52:11,080
And if you're reading crypto economics or whatever other junk there is getting pushed as an Austrian, as in praxological, then, yeah, you're wasting your time.

1468
01:52:11,300 --> 01:52:13,500
So, yeah, we need to read Knut's book and others.

1469
01:52:13,660 --> 01:52:14,280
Simple as that.

1470
01:52:15,180 --> 01:52:15,620
Yeah.

1471
01:52:16,060 --> 01:52:16,820
I'm into that.

1472
01:52:17,040 --> 01:52:17,480
Absolutely.

1473
01:52:17,900 --> 01:52:18,140
Yes.

1474
01:52:18,580 --> 01:52:19,020
Okay.

1475
01:52:19,300 --> 01:52:20,960
We've been going for two hours now.

1476
01:52:21,080 --> 01:52:23,900
So maybe it's time to wrap this up.

1477
01:52:24,000 --> 01:52:25,960
Is there anywhere where we haven't gone yet?

1478
01:52:26,060 --> 01:52:29,000
Like stuff you wanted to talk about that you feel you left out?

1479
01:52:29,000 --> 01:52:36,700
not like related to all this stuff i think kind of covered all i mean there is like maybe future

1480
01:52:36,700 --> 01:52:44,100
podcasts talking about um there's like a private law society yeah yeah i love that the whole

1481
01:52:44,100 --> 01:52:50,700
dichotomy between lawful and legal we never went there but yeah that's a big chapter but it is an

1482
01:52:50,700 --> 01:52:55,580
interesting element of so there's actually some guys so you like bisque like um decentralized

1483
01:52:55,580 --> 01:53:03,040
exchange using Bitcoin as a platform. And then there's some gents who've taken, so like there's

1484
01:53:03,040 --> 01:53:10,500
a two of two escrow. So the multi-seek approach that that has, but it's the private law society.

1485
01:53:10,600 --> 01:53:15,720
So these guys out in Brazil have essentially done that for doing that for contracts. So it's like

1486
01:53:15,720 --> 01:53:21,040
trying to, instead of using the state for contracts, it's using and relying on force.

1487
01:53:21,040 --> 01:53:28,620
It's essentially, well, we both agree, like as a market using Bitcoin, like putting up collateral that, yeah, we want to use, we agree to this contract.

1488
01:53:28,740 --> 01:53:38,140
They're attaching an agreement that they've like a contract to it and then choosing from arbitrage where they currently exist or a market of that, a marketplace to choose that.

1489
01:53:38,280 --> 01:53:44,580
And then it's like, okay, then they engage in that and then post the transaction completing, it's a happy medium.

1490
01:53:44,580 --> 01:53:49,540
they go about their lives. But if there's a dispute, you have dispute resolution that's

1491
01:53:49,540 --> 01:53:54,020
baked into the system, just similar to BISC has like arbitration and mediation,

1492
01:53:54,540 --> 01:54:00,580
if there's any trades that don't happen. And so it's like literally private law in action,

1493
01:54:00,780 --> 01:54:08,080
not based on location or whatnot. And so potentially a wild, yeah, literal example of

1494
01:54:08,080 --> 01:54:13,740
private law happening. I think I met these guys or something similar to them back in,

1495
01:54:13,740 --> 01:54:17,660
like this is like four or five years ago at the Free Cities Conference.

1496
01:54:18,520 --> 01:54:19,820
Yeah, there was a lot about that.

1497
01:54:20,260 --> 01:54:21,960
Yeah, it's a pretty cool project.

1498
01:54:22,200 --> 01:54:23,600
I mean, this is the whole thing.

1499
01:54:23,720 --> 01:54:28,160
People say, let us spam in peace because they think spamming has something to do with the free market.

1500
01:54:28,620 --> 01:54:32,260
No, spamming and scams are not a part of the free market.

1501
01:54:32,420 --> 01:54:35,100
They're breach of contract, meaning they're criminal.

1502
01:54:35,620 --> 01:54:38,560
So people get that completely wrong.

1503
01:54:38,560 --> 01:54:43,620
They think because we're libertarian that we think that somehow it's okay to scam people.

1504
01:54:43,740 --> 01:54:45,340
but it absolutely isn't.

1505
01:54:45,400 --> 01:54:47,920
And the only thing we're saying is that it's up to the victim

1506
01:54:47,920 --> 01:54:51,120
to solve the problem and take responsibility.

1507
01:54:51,720 --> 01:54:53,540
And there's a big difference there.

1508
01:54:53,960 --> 01:54:56,400
But scams are not a part of the free market.

1509
01:54:56,560 --> 01:55:00,420
They're a part of crime, which the state is too, by the way.

1510
01:55:01,160 --> 01:55:03,480
And this is, talk about Eric Vohr,

1511
01:55:03,480 --> 01:55:06,680
who's like a kind of a constant behind this,

1512
01:55:06,780 --> 01:55:09,140
but I think it's just an embodiment of this like

1513
01:55:09,140 --> 01:55:15,580
like LARP-itarian, Libertine, even like David Freeman type anarcho-capitalist where Rothbard

1514
01:55:15,580 --> 01:55:19,580
talks about, it's like spammers and scammers.

1515
01:55:19,860 --> 01:55:23,900
Like it's like they've, they talk about economic demand for like something.

1516
01:55:24,040 --> 01:55:27,820
And it's like Rothbard's got a good piece and he's talking about frack reserve banking,

1517
01:55:27,820 --> 01:55:31,540
which Eric Voors, I believe, supports as well.

1518
01:55:31,700 --> 01:55:33,400
And it's like, oh, is that the quote unquote free market?

1519
01:55:33,500 --> 01:55:35,300
It's like, no, no, no, we don't support a free market to scam.

1520
01:55:35,300 --> 01:55:40,180
And the comment here is like Rothbard's asked about like, what about the argument that 100%

1521
01:55:40,180 --> 01:55:43,280
reserves require government intervention? And he's like, well, I regard fractional reserve

1522
01:55:43,280 --> 01:55:47,560
banking as an intervention in the free market, just as crime against person and property as

1523
01:55:47,560 --> 01:55:51,980
intervention. And they create some banking and allows them to the crime to be committed.

1524
01:55:52,200 --> 01:55:55,500
But how do we address the needs of trade arguments? So it's like those that say business

1525
01:55:55,500 --> 01:56:00,360
has a demand for credit, what about that? Well, it's like, well, there are many things the market

1526
01:56:00,360 --> 01:56:03,160
demand on the market that are also crimes,

1527
01:56:03,240 --> 01:56:05,540
like demand for killing redheads, he talks about.

1528
01:56:06,240 --> 01:56:08,140
And there's certainly demand for government loop.

1529
01:56:08,240 --> 01:56:09,840
Like, what's so great about market demand?

1530
01:56:10,820 --> 01:56:11,360
No, no, no.

1531
01:56:12,160 --> 01:56:14,920
Yeah, demand for credit doesn't mean that

1532
01:56:14,920 --> 01:56:17,500
you can just conjure up credit and pretend it's money.

1533
01:56:18,220 --> 01:56:18,400
Yeah.

1534
01:56:18,400 --> 01:56:19,340
It's super simple.

1535
01:56:19,860 --> 01:56:22,240
And you see some core devs, though, talk about, like,

1536
01:56:22,240 --> 01:56:25,340
oh, there's economic demand for, like, NFTs

1537
01:56:25,340 --> 01:56:27,080
and, like, the ordinals and, like, inscriptions

1538
01:56:27,080 --> 01:56:28,860
and, like, the spam.

1539
01:56:29,080 --> 01:56:30,300
And it's like, so what?

1540
01:56:30,360 --> 01:56:33,260
Like, is it a monetary network?

1541
01:56:33,380 --> 01:56:34,220
Is it monetary or not?

1542
01:56:34,820 --> 01:56:37,160
There's a lot of demand for heroin too.

1543
01:56:38,460 --> 01:56:38,620
Right.

1544
01:56:39,040 --> 01:56:40,540
And so, like, with Eric Voorhees, I think, though,

1545
01:56:40,600 --> 01:56:45,780
the problem is that's his ethos or, like, he thinks.

1546
01:56:46,240 --> 01:56:48,780
And often I think it's a rationalization for, like, okay,

1547
01:56:48,800 --> 01:56:49,540
how can I make money?

1548
01:56:49,820 --> 01:56:53,280
I can do these bad things, but it's just a free market.

1549
01:56:53,500 --> 01:56:57,120
Like, are these plebs I'm dunking on, like, I'm scamming,

1550
01:56:57,220 --> 01:56:58,820
like, well, that's their choice.

1551
01:56:58,820 --> 01:57:03,620
They have a choice to, and like, as you rug pull them and then you commit fraud, essentially.

1552
01:57:03,980 --> 01:57:06,020
It's like, well, no, like we're not.

1553
01:57:06,120 --> 01:57:10,200
It's like, and so part of it is a David Friedman style with the free bank is they kind of accepts

1554
01:57:10,200 --> 01:57:15,900
a David Friedman kind of anarchism where there's no law, only people engaging in exchange and

1555
01:57:15,900 --> 01:57:16,640
buying people out.

1556
01:57:16,760 --> 01:57:21,020
So like, if you've got a group who will have, that wants to kill redheads, the redheads like

1557
01:57:21,020 --> 01:57:23,320
have to buy them off if they value their hair.

1558
01:57:23,680 --> 01:57:28,220
It's like, he thinks it's monstrous and that kind of anarchism would indeed be chaos.

1559
01:57:28,740 --> 01:57:31,340
And so I think just because there's demand for something

1560
01:57:31,340 --> 01:57:32,320
doesn't mean it should be fulfilled.

1561
01:57:33,040 --> 01:57:35,820
And that's, I think, the detachment where it,

1562
01:57:36,100 --> 01:57:36,960
what's the premise in that?

1563
01:57:37,060 --> 01:57:39,160
Like a lot of them, like the LARPitarians,

1564
01:57:39,420 --> 01:57:41,880
I see it all like the pro spammers,

1565
01:57:42,460 --> 01:57:44,540
ordinals, NFT guys, Eric Vores.

1566
01:57:44,740 --> 01:57:46,440
It's like, oh, it's a free market.

1567
01:57:46,780 --> 01:57:48,720
And it's like, based on what?

1568
01:57:48,720 --> 01:57:48,900
No.

1569
01:57:49,280 --> 01:57:52,200
And they don't have any idea what the free market is based on

1570
01:57:52,200 --> 01:57:53,720
in terms of like contract.

1571
01:57:53,920 --> 01:57:56,020
But also what type of contract?

1572
01:57:56,380 --> 01:57:57,260
There's contract theory.

1573
01:57:57,260 --> 01:58:01,720
and then there's like there's a variety of that it's not just making promises as a contract is

1574
01:58:01,720 --> 01:58:07,060
so it's like Rothbard Evers property title transfer contract theory which is the only

1575
01:58:07,060 --> 01:58:11,660
justifiable one and you can deep dive into that but they've got no idea that concept exists and

1576
01:58:11,660 --> 01:58:16,140
like that's what the free market is based on a contract like legitimate justifiable transactions

1577
01:58:16,140 --> 01:58:22,620
and so to them it's just ah yes you know a and b we both agree but for and like from a fractional

1578
01:58:22,620 --> 01:58:27,120
reserve perspective, like, oh, A and B, I'm a depositor. I'm going to drop that money into the

1579
01:58:27,120 --> 01:58:33,280
bank. They're going to treat it as money and fracturing reserve it. But the thing is, there's

1580
01:58:33,280 --> 01:58:39,780
the third party who that guy, the A and B agree, the bank and the depositor agree, sure. But then

1581
01:58:39,780 --> 01:58:45,840
they go to the third party who believes that's backed by something. And C doesn't agree. And D

1582
01:58:45,840 --> 01:58:52,020
and E and F don't agree. And the same way, by analogy, the node runners don't agree. So the

1583
01:58:52,020 --> 01:58:56,780
The Ordinals scammers and the Ordinals buyer might agree.

1584
01:58:56,780 --> 01:58:58,240
Okay, like sure.

1585
01:58:58,240 --> 01:59:00,460
Although they're trying to bank on

1586
01:59:00,460 --> 01:59:02,080
screwing over the greater fool.

1587
01:59:02,080 --> 01:59:04,800
And it's like, well, no C and D and E and F and all,

1588
01:59:04,800 --> 01:59:07,740
no runners don't agree and they're monetary only

1589
01:59:07,740 --> 01:59:09,360
and their property is being impacted.

1590
01:59:09,360 --> 01:59:23,089
So it the same thing And that the challenge of like yeah I think so much damage has been caused by just that one philosophical misunderstanding I think like if Eric is like behind Citria an investor and like there Lop and all

1591
01:59:23,089 --> 01:59:27,769
these guys, if they are in the devs, like there's a lot of this, again, this economic

1592
01:59:27,769 --> 01:59:33,309
literacy that if it was understood, I think they would realize like risking killing the

1593
01:59:33,309 --> 01:59:34,229
goose, the golden goose.

1594
01:59:35,029 --> 01:59:36,149
Why would you do that?

1595
01:59:36,249 --> 01:59:39,629
And like, if they have that asset themselves, they're reducing his quality.

1596
01:59:39,629 --> 01:59:42,869
Like, why would you be actively doing that?

1597
01:59:42,869 --> 01:59:47,569
So see, they don't have it and, or they don't know.

1598
01:59:47,569 --> 01:59:52,369
And yeah, it's like, there's different ways to go about it, but yeah, it's, that's the

1599
01:59:52,369 --> 01:59:53,369
current challenge, I think.

1600
01:59:53,369 --> 01:59:57,869
So what do you think is more common for shit corners, ignorance or malice?

1601
01:59:57,869 --> 02:00:04,309
I think ignorance, but then there's some that overtly enjoy the malice, like of it,

1602
02:00:04,309 --> 02:00:06,229
like, and they, they revel in it.

1603
02:00:06,229 --> 02:00:09,629
And like, yes, there's this highly degenerate element to it.

1604
02:00:09,629 --> 02:00:14,469
You know, if it's just gambling and that seems like Eric gambling, Adam back gambling, like

1605
02:00:14,469 --> 02:00:15,869
in terms of stock.

1606
02:00:15,869 --> 02:00:18,029
So he's always been a trader, like this type of thing.

1607
02:00:18,029 --> 02:00:21,229
It's not just, it's not good enough to be to sound money, like humanity's best chance

1608
02:00:21,229 --> 02:00:23,749
of freedom, money, separation, money, and state.

1609
02:00:23,749 --> 02:00:27,909
And they're like, they're trying to feel, it seems like, and I'm, you know, psychologizing

1610
02:00:27,909 --> 02:00:30,829
here and, you know, um, don't have much weight to it.

1611
02:00:30,829 --> 02:00:33,729
what I see is, um, an element of that.

1612
02:00:33,829 --> 02:00:40,869
And, um, but it's, yeah, I think it's far rarer if they knew the consequences.

1613
02:00:40,969 --> 02:00:41,329
Yeah.

1614
02:00:41,989 --> 02:00:43,689
They'd be far less inclined to do it.

1615
02:00:44,049 --> 02:00:49,369
Um, but there can always be those who do know and do it anyway.

1616
02:00:49,969 --> 02:00:52,409
Um, but yeah, it's, uh, I guess it depends.

1617
02:00:52,449 --> 02:00:59,349
And I, I think even, even if you, um, so let me see how to frame this because

1618
02:00:59,349 --> 02:01:07,689
In a sense, it's all ignorance because people are malevolent or malicious because they don't understand what that's doing to their souls.

1619
02:01:07,689 --> 02:01:13,129
Like according to Ayn Randian objectivism or whatever, like I don't think you can actually.

1620
02:01:13,389 --> 02:01:15,229
And this is, of course, opinion.

1621
02:01:15,529 --> 02:01:23,929
But I think most people underestimate how much damage being a bad actor does to your to your soul, for lack of a better word.

1622
02:01:23,929 --> 02:01:31,649
like how much more satisfied you'd be with life if you chose to not scam people yes

1623
02:01:31,649 --> 02:01:39,529
your your your word the scarface quotes sorry for continuing here but all i have in this word

1624
02:01:39,529 --> 02:01:45,329
in this world is my word and my balls and they don't break for no one if everyone lived by that

1625
02:01:45,329 --> 02:01:51,429
we'd all be fine because like people put a discount on their integrity and i think that's

1626
02:01:51,429 --> 02:01:58,929
largely a product of fiat and fiat mindedness, this high time preference thinking. If everyone was

1627
02:01:58,929 --> 02:02:04,049
totally low time preference, incentivized to be low time preference by Bitcoin, if you want,

1628
02:02:04,109 --> 02:02:10,269
then would get to this, that which I can do without my own type of mindset and will be less

1629
02:02:10,269 --> 02:02:21,189
materialistic, less short-term thinking and less malicious because that's a better life. That's a

1630
02:02:21,189 --> 02:02:25,709
I think there's, um, what I sometimes see as well is, which I try not to trigger.

1631
02:02:25,829 --> 02:02:29,229
So like, there's a, there's a quote where it's like, there's a principle, which is a

1632
02:02:29,229 --> 02:02:33,549
bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, which kind of fail

1633
02:02:33,549 --> 02:02:35,209
to keep a man in everlasting ignorance.

1634
02:02:35,209 --> 02:02:40,929
And that principle is contempt prior to investigation, like contempt prior to investigation.

1635
02:02:40,929 --> 02:02:45,729
So like those, if like you, I sometimes see it with the shit corners of scam is like the,

1636
02:02:45,729 --> 02:02:49,629
there's, if there's a lack of intellectual honesty, which like raises a red flag and

1637
02:02:49,629 --> 02:02:55,989
lack of curiosity to me it's like you're you're almost spitting in the face of progression and

1638
02:02:55,989 --> 02:03:03,489
like civilization like you nothing more i think like insulting or like worthy of contempt is that

1639
02:03:03,489 --> 02:03:11,349
but what i do see is is people that often yeah sometimes revel in in that ignorance um or they've

1640
02:03:11,349 --> 02:03:16,589
got that contempt for whatever reasons maybe it's like lds like luke derangement syndrome or whatever

1641
02:03:16,589 --> 02:03:21,429
it is there's like some some things there for some some devs but if there's that contempt prior

1642
02:03:21,429 --> 02:03:26,029
investigation or it like sometimes like looking at greg maxwell or some of these which what can

1643
02:03:26,029 --> 02:03:31,909
do to explain some of their reactions to some of these things that are new and um you know the

1644
02:03:31,909 --> 02:03:36,929
principles are there and actually contradict some of their old statements but they've got contempt

1645
02:03:36,929 --> 02:03:43,489
for whatever reason um and on that current piece of information and so they it's almost like that

1646
02:03:43,489 --> 02:03:47,969
it's either trying to get around that or mitigate that somehow or not trigger it.

1647
02:03:48,169 --> 02:03:50,629
But yeah, it's, it's the, it's that contempt,

1648
02:03:50,629 --> 02:03:55,329
which kind of keeps them in the state of ignorance and hopefully like using memes

1649
02:03:55,329 --> 02:04:00,529
or humor or I don't know, is ways to get others to, to see through that.

1650
02:04:00,749 --> 02:04:04,109
But otherwise, like sometimes it's hard to, when someone's paycheck,

1651
02:04:04,309 --> 02:04:06,169
what's the phrase where like they're getting paid to.

1652
02:04:06,909 --> 02:04:07,469
Yeah.

1653
02:04:08,069 --> 02:04:09,689
It's hard to convince them other ways.

1654
02:04:10,049 --> 02:04:10,209
Yeah.

1655
02:04:10,669 --> 02:04:11,769
He was a commie by the way.

1656
02:04:11,769 --> 02:04:17,169
Anyway, so how do we protect ourselves from our own cognitive biases?

1657
02:04:17,429 --> 02:04:22,169
If you don't want to like, because we're all susceptible to falling into these traps.

1658
02:04:22,469 --> 02:04:30,769
We're like Nazi Germany or Stalinist Soviet didn't just happen because people were, because they were bad people sharing for these things.

1659
02:04:30,769 --> 02:04:32,629
Like human beings are flawed.

1660
02:04:32,849 --> 02:04:34,989
We do have our cognitive biases.

1661
02:04:35,169 --> 02:04:40,309
And I think many of them are like the psychological rationalization for why we do things.

1662
02:04:40,309 --> 02:04:46,649
Like, how do we, how do we remain skeptical enough and how do we remain intellectually

1663
02:04:46,649 --> 02:04:47,949
honest is the question, I guess.

1664
02:04:48,329 --> 02:04:48,489
Yeah.

1665
02:04:49,009 --> 02:04:50,369
We've always got to check your premises.

1666
02:04:50,489 --> 02:04:54,609
Like for me, and that's why it's in my vows actually like being intellectually honest and

1667
02:04:54,609 --> 02:04:57,589
open to reason and, you know, passionate about that curious way.

1668
02:04:57,709 --> 02:04:58,609
You got to check your premises.

1669
02:04:59,129 --> 02:05:02,889
And again, that's like where for me, it comes back to that's how progression happens.

1670
02:05:02,949 --> 02:05:07,709
And if you stop that, then you stop kind of progressing in a sense of enabling that

1671
02:05:07,709 --> 02:05:08,269
possibility.

1672
02:05:08,269 --> 02:05:14,429
So, yeah, it's always checking the premises, but it's like, okay, what area of knowledge is this?

1673
02:05:14,509 --> 02:05:16,469
Is this a priori?

1674
02:05:16,649 --> 02:05:19,229
Is it like, what's the methodology I need to engage with?

1675
02:05:19,669 --> 02:05:22,769
Is it axiomatic and deductive?

1676
02:05:22,949 --> 02:05:24,609
Or is this hypothetical?

1677
02:05:24,789 --> 02:05:25,389
Is this empirical?

1678
02:05:25,649 --> 02:05:27,049
Is like, do I use a scientific method?

1679
02:05:27,169 --> 02:05:29,089
Is it like always open to testing?

1680
02:05:29,649 --> 02:05:37,529
And so understanding epistemology, like the validity of knowledge is vital to be able to use the correct lens

1681
02:05:37,529 --> 02:05:40,989
in the correct time and place for what you're looking at.

1682
02:05:41,189 --> 02:05:45,049
And then, you know, understanding reality, like interwoven reality, right?

1683
02:05:45,129 --> 02:05:49,349
Where it comes back, like conceptually, we can look at one area at a time,

1684
02:05:49,349 --> 02:05:53,869
but we can understand that they're like a different size of the same coin.

1685
02:05:54,149 --> 02:05:58,229
I mean, and so, yeah, there's, I think epistemology is a massive part of that.

1686
02:05:58,429 --> 02:06:03,009
Yeah, if you put your, you know, a lot of people feel like they're getting attacked,

1687
02:06:03,129 --> 02:06:07,509
like a role, you're discussing ideas and they associate themselves with those ideas.

1688
02:06:07,529 --> 02:06:11,249
they like a role association of sorts and so you're attacking the idea you feel like they're

1689
02:06:11,249 --> 02:06:16,109
attacking getting attacked i feel if if you bank it on a principle which is like being intellectually

1690
02:06:16,109 --> 02:06:22,649
honest open to reason you if you're wrong like it's far easier to well accept that and great

1691
02:06:22,649 --> 02:06:27,589
like now i've improved and progressed and i don't need to be wrong again um and i think there's an

1692
02:06:27,589 --> 02:06:32,029
element to this where sometimes i come across is are there different different methods for online

1693
02:06:32,029 --> 02:06:38,229
versus in person. I think online where there is no time limit per se, you can pause, think,

1694
02:06:38,349 --> 02:06:44,449
consider, review, come back first in person. It's like more inclined to be, you know, thinking about

1695
02:06:44,449 --> 02:06:49,589
your response or it's a debate or, you know, you know, whatever it is, it's like less. So I've got

1696
02:06:49,589 --> 02:06:56,749
more of a higher threshold on like online discourse, although I probably shouldn't,

1697
02:06:56,749 --> 02:07:02,849
Like maybe I'm projecting in that regard where, um, others don't, you know, get referenced

1698
02:07:02,849 --> 02:07:04,529
and then I go down that rabbit hole.

1699
02:07:04,949 --> 02:07:07,149
Um, so I've got to be kind of conscious of that.

1700
02:07:07,149 --> 02:07:13,529
But to me, it's, um, there's, yeah, it's, there's that element of checking your premises,

1701
02:07:13,709 --> 02:07:17,009
essentially being aware of, um, your own ignorance.

1702
02:07:17,009 --> 02:07:32,277
Like and there nothing wrong with being ignorant like but it knowing it That the wisdom piece where I know the areas that I passionate about and not but then anything like empirical scientific natural sciences whatever it is areas that I know

1703
02:07:32,537 --> 02:07:36,957
like, yeah, that's, that's, um, I'm not, I'm not banking on here. And so that's why I tend to have

1704
02:07:36,957 --> 02:07:43,437
my discussions with commentary, remind remains on things that are a priori or things that axiomatic

1705
02:07:43,437 --> 02:07:47,597
inducted, where it is a definitive answer of sorts. And it's not like, you know, I like

1706
02:07:47,597 --> 02:07:52,777
subjectively like this and you like that and cool, great. It's like, no, one of us is wrong.

1707
02:07:52,837 --> 02:07:57,757
And one of us is right. Like one plus one is two or one plus one is three. One of us is right. And

1708
02:07:57,757 --> 02:08:02,817
either it's me or it's you. If it's me, I want it to know. I want to know if it's you, well,

1709
02:08:02,837 --> 02:08:09,017
you need to be open to that and accept that. And if you then double down or triple down,

1710
02:08:09,017 --> 02:08:14,797
when you've engaged and I've shown the best resources that exist, that it shows one plus

1711
02:08:14,797 --> 02:08:20,337
one is two and you keep saying it's three then like my respect levels decrease and you then get

1712
02:08:20,337 --> 02:08:26,057
treated more as a soundboard and someone to be ridiculed than someone to be respected and

1713
02:08:26,057 --> 02:08:32,617
that's my approach and so partly there's an element of by pushing hard if someone I want my

1714
02:08:32,617 --> 02:08:40,697
be pushed hard back and so like if if someone was and maybe this is wrong but if uh you know

1715
02:08:40,697 --> 02:08:45,857
I'm saying one plus one is three and someone knows it's two

1716
02:08:45,857 --> 02:08:47,657
and I'm being an arsehole about it.

1717
02:08:47,657 --> 02:08:54,197
I want them to critique me, have the incentive to push back

1718
02:08:54,197 --> 02:08:59,177
and say why I'm wrong so I can adapt and understand and then go great.

1719
02:08:59,757 --> 02:09:02,377
But you've got to be available to do that.

1720
02:09:03,357 --> 02:09:07,737
We had an example of this last week, which is like the first time

1721
02:09:07,737 --> 02:09:11,617
I think that I've seen you be wrong online.

1722
02:09:11,837 --> 02:09:14,537
And that is when you said Swedish cantons,

1723
02:09:14,717 --> 02:09:16,117
meaning Swiss cantons.

1724
02:09:16,577 --> 02:09:17,237
Oh, yeah, yeah.

1725
02:09:17,917 --> 02:09:20,497
So I pointed out, I think you mean Swiss cantons,

1726
02:09:20,537 --> 02:09:22,617
and you immediately corrected yourself and said,

1727
02:09:22,697 --> 02:09:25,197
yes, of course, it's in Switzerland, not in Sweden.

1728
02:09:25,857 --> 02:09:28,077
But I think that was actually the first time

1729
02:09:28,077 --> 02:09:29,777
that I've ever seen you be wrong online.

1730
02:09:30,937 --> 02:09:35,557
And again, there's a bunch of other incentives online too,

1731
02:09:35,557 --> 02:09:41,277
especially nowadays when you know the whole incentive to be an influencer really wasn't there

1732
02:09:41,277 --> 02:09:47,637
as it wasn't as prevalent 10 years ago as it is now now you can actually just blurt out your shit

1733
02:09:47,637 --> 02:09:54,197
online and make a live i mean i'm an example of it like i have i live online now as opposed to in

1734
02:09:54,197 --> 02:09:59,977
my fiat job and i like it a lot more but i also i'm also very aware that that is the algorithms

1735
02:09:59,977 --> 02:10:05,537
this or that algorithm is skewing my perspective somehow and i need to check myself a lot and

1736
02:10:05,537 --> 02:10:10,257
And I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all solution.

1737
02:10:12,017 --> 02:10:13,857
There's often a critique of like leading libertarians,

1738
02:10:13,937 --> 02:10:15,137
like you're talking amongst yourselves,

1739
02:10:15,297 --> 02:10:17,357
or like say maybe Bitcoin is talking amongst yourselves.

1740
02:10:18,637 --> 02:10:21,437
And it's like, is that like the cult equivalent

1741
02:10:21,437 --> 02:10:24,037
or your own bubble per se?

1742
02:10:24,197 --> 02:10:26,017
And to me, it's like it's a bubble of decency,

1743
02:10:26,237 --> 02:10:28,137
common decency that, you know, to weather the storm

1744
02:10:28,137 --> 02:10:31,517
because 99% like every other transaction,

1745
02:10:31,737 --> 02:10:34,137
engagement, interaction throughout the day

1746
02:10:34,137 --> 02:10:35,557
is outside that bubble.

1747
02:10:35,937 --> 02:10:37,877
Like it is, it's work,

1748
02:10:38,077 --> 02:10:39,557
it's where it's like, you know, public,

1749
02:10:41,117 --> 02:10:42,717
you know, normal land, whatever it is.

1750
02:10:43,077 --> 02:10:44,377
So it's like, no, you're not,

1751
02:10:45,257 --> 02:10:46,537
it's like you've got a,

1752
02:10:46,597 --> 02:10:47,897
there's a safe haven of sorts

1753
02:10:47,897 --> 02:10:50,337
that you could kind of rely on

1754
02:10:50,337 --> 02:10:52,977
and critique the clown world

1755
02:10:52,977 --> 02:10:54,737
that it is sometimes, the fiat mindset.

1756
02:10:54,737 --> 02:10:57,377
No, like we are the ones leaving the cult.

1757
02:10:57,497 --> 02:10:58,217
We're not the cult.

1758
02:10:58,217 --> 02:10:59,777
Like the cult is the people

1759
02:10:59,777 --> 02:11:02,857
that live in unverifiable money.

1760
02:11:02,977 --> 02:11:03,817
They have this thing.

1761
02:11:04,137 --> 02:11:07,057
with a little fucking Illuminati pyramid right there,

1762
02:11:07,177 --> 02:11:08,437
and they think it's legit.

1763
02:11:09,337 --> 02:11:09,537
Yeah.

1764
02:11:09,677 --> 02:11:12,517
So we're the ones that call the cult out,

1765
02:11:12,717 --> 02:11:16,337
and we're the deserters.

1766
02:11:16,637 --> 02:11:19,637
We're the ones leaving, not the ones in a cult.

1767
02:11:19,777 --> 02:11:21,417
So they live in a bubble, we don't,

1768
02:11:21,477 --> 02:11:23,617
and I'm going to die on this hill proudly.

1769
02:11:23,617 --> 02:11:23,717
Yeah.

1770
02:11:25,917 --> 02:11:27,397
There was a recent poll that,

1771
02:11:27,557 --> 02:11:29,117
oh, not recent poll, it was like a Comden Center,

1772
02:11:29,317 --> 02:11:31,117
and this is like maybe 2005 or something,

1773
02:11:31,217 --> 02:11:33,437
but it was on the concept of fractional reserve banking,

1774
02:11:33,437 --> 02:11:37,097
and was asking the UK, it was a question around prying,

1775
02:11:37,677 --> 02:11:40,757
like fractional reserve bankers claim that depositors,

1776
02:11:40,897 --> 02:11:43,977
like people believe they accept that they're the contract,

1777
02:11:44,077 --> 02:11:46,417
they're giving their money to the bank and it's no longer theirs.

1778
02:11:46,597 --> 02:11:49,297
It's the banks and the banks can do what they want with it.

1779
02:11:49,677 --> 02:11:51,137
Fractional reserve is like, that's the claim.

1780
02:11:51,377 --> 02:11:54,437
So people should be, it's no fraud because people are aware of that.

1781
02:11:54,637 --> 02:11:58,397
And it was like the poll, which was fairly widely done,

1782
02:11:58,597 --> 02:12:02,117
normal folks out there, I think 3,000, 4,000 people or whatever,

1783
02:12:02,117 --> 02:12:06,597
but it was something like 70% believed that the bank actually had,

1784
02:12:06,697 --> 02:12:08,237
like it's their money still.

1785
02:12:08,377 --> 02:12:11,357
They don't understand it's not theirs anymore from a legal,

1786
02:12:11,557 --> 02:12:13,797
current legal positives perspective.

1787
02:12:14,457 --> 02:12:16,257
And it's like, no.

1788
02:12:16,457 --> 02:12:19,557
And Rothbard jokes about it where he's like, you know,

1789
02:12:19,717 --> 02:12:27,117
a whole university like lecture, many talks over like semesters

1790
02:12:27,117 --> 02:12:30,297
from his, you know, quote unquote propaganda on the money's not there

1791
02:12:30,297 --> 02:12:35,577
and still like some folks thinking that the money is still there folks and it's like it's not yeah so

1792
02:12:35,577 --> 02:12:42,477
it's it's yeah um no the the i was reminded of that a couple of years back when i needed to

1793
02:12:42,477 --> 02:12:48,237
withdraw a lot of cash for a certain reason and the bank asks me what i'm going to do with the

1794
02:12:48,237 --> 02:12:53,297
money i should be asking them what they are going to do with my money otherwise it isn't my money

1795
02:12:53,297 --> 02:12:59,177
it's theirs and like why do i need their the custodian's permission to use my shit it's like

1796
02:12:59,177 --> 02:13:01,437
so backwards and so weird.

1797
02:13:01,937 --> 02:13:03,997
So the way I see it now is that the bank is a,

1798
02:13:04,517 --> 02:13:07,657
your bank account is a two out of three multi-sig solution

1799
02:13:07,657 --> 02:13:10,017
between you, the bank, and the government.

1800
02:13:10,277 --> 02:13:13,257
And both the government and the bank have master keys.

1801
02:13:13,357 --> 02:13:15,237
You're the only one that needs the consent of

1802
02:13:15,237 --> 02:13:19,397
at least one of the others to use your money.

1803
02:13:19,537 --> 02:13:21,417
So it's a pretty bad multi-sig setup.

1804
02:13:22,177 --> 02:13:23,337
Yeah, 100%.

1805
02:13:23,337 --> 02:13:25,697
All right, where can people find more?

1806
02:13:25,697 --> 02:13:32,877
You recently posted some excellent slides on explaining some fundamental praxeological insights.

1807
02:13:33,217 --> 02:13:36,497
Conrad Graf's stuff and Mises stuff, great stuff.

1808
02:13:36,757 --> 02:13:38,677
And you made them yourself, I think?

1809
02:13:39,877 --> 02:13:40,397
No.

1810
02:13:40,677 --> 02:13:41,697
Using an AI or something?

1811
02:13:41,937 --> 02:13:42,337
The power of AI.

1812
02:13:43,197 --> 02:13:44,777
Yeah, but that's a tool.

1813
02:13:44,977 --> 02:13:45,997
It's still you, Conz.

1814
02:13:46,597 --> 02:13:48,437
The AI is not you.

1815
02:13:48,937 --> 02:13:53,477
Vetted by myself with a highly critical eye that essentially, yeah, it's like nothing.

1816
02:13:53,477 --> 02:13:59,517
getting it's like it's very efficient though i gotta say like i was actually quite impressed um

1817
02:13:59,517 --> 02:14:05,837
with what is produced like not much prompting at all but masterful imagery as well so um i mean

1818
02:14:05,837 --> 02:14:10,657
that's just on x just cons a handle there's still like lifelong projects in the background like the

1819
02:14:10,657 --> 02:14:15,717
practiceology podcast that have like it's got all the city there but it's just time factor and i'm

1820
02:14:15,717 --> 02:14:20,657
all or nothing with things and so it's in the nothing bucket at the moment but hopefully um that

1821
02:14:20,657 --> 02:14:26,557
ticks over it will at some point to the all phase but until then yeah just just hassling

1822
02:14:26,557 --> 02:14:32,157
folks economically illiterate everyone like economic illiterate you know dev syndrome is

1823
02:14:32,157 --> 02:14:38,357
online and just trying to push keep bitcoin is money only um and improve not reduce its quality

1824
02:14:38,357 --> 02:14:43,057
is the kind of key concern and um all on board for anyone who's who's doing that

1825
02:14:43,057 --> 02:14:49,997
so your cons are on x and you have your website too right what's yeah there's an old tumblr that

1826
02:14:49,997 --> 02:14:52,197
It has like a whole bunch of stuff.

1827
02:14:52,457 --> 02:14:53,897
So konza.tumblr.com.

1828
02:14:54,397 --> 02:14:56,057
Yeah, it's in your profile, right?

1829
02:14:56,217 --> 02:14:56,357
Yeah.

1830
02:14:56,637 --> 02:14:58,417
Yeah, that's for like the gems.

1831
02:14:58,637 --> 02:15:01,257
So if there's any kind of topic that, you know, hits,

1832
02:15:01,497 --> 02:15:02,897
maybe not so much Bitcoin related stuff,

1833
02:15:02,957 --> 02:15:04,537
but like Australia libertarianism stuff,

1834
02:15:04,677 --> 02:15:05,737
like go to the tag.

1835
02:15:05,897 --> 02:15:08,597
I've basically read everything that exists

1836
02:15:08,597 --> 02:15:10,897
and over the years, it's like fine-tuned to,

1837
02:15:11,177 --> 02:15:12,477
it's not like, oh, this is a nice quote.

1838
02:15:12,537 --> 02:15:16,017
It's like, no, I've gotten so annoyed.

1839
02:15:16,017 --> 02:15:18,017
It's like seeing the same argument so many times

1840
02:15:18,017 --> 02:15:22,097
that I became efficient at like, this is the best argument that exists.

1841
02:15:22,097 --> 02:15:26,337
Like after reading, doing all the proof of work around where like reading all the materials,

1842
02:15:26,337 --> 02:15:40,046
this is this now strikes at the root of that misconception This was what also convinced me So like I used to be a status I used to think the exact same as the person I engaging with generally speaking what convinced me otherwise

1843
02:15:40,046 --> 02:15:45,766
And it was like, oh, yes, this. So I've saved that with a reference to like trailhead of sorts. So

1844
02:15:45,766 --> 02:15:51,446
good, good, good starting point for anyone, any kind of topic to then save the hassle of reading

1845
02:15:51,446 --> 02:15:55,466
all the primary resource material. But yeah, it's a, it's a trailhead to go do that. But yeah,

1846
02:15:55,466 --> 02:16:02,926
interesting with the AI stuff with, it's like use notebook. So like notebook LM where I think it's

1847
02:16:02,926 --> 02:16:07,886
using Gemini three or something behind the scenes, but basically your own resources you can add. So

1848
02:16:07,886 --> 02:16:14,786
like dumping, you know, all the Mises in, you know, 50 resources or like libertarian based stuff for

1849
02:16:14,786 --> 02:16:19,386
articles, you know, key monographs and they kind of engage in that only. It's not like

1850
02:16:19,386 --> 02:16:23,146
genitive replies elsewhere. It only uses those resources. You can be very specific with it.

1851
02:16:23,146 --> 02:16:26,606
And so like, oh, somewhere in human action, like this came up.

1852
02:16:26,726 --> 02:16:32,666
So instead of me just up here now, I'm trying to empower that as well.

1853
02:16:32,806 --> 02:16:37,546
So like, I think that's democratizing for want of a terrible name, but wanting to share

1854
02:16:37,546 --> 02:16:37,926
that out.

1855
02:16:37,986 --> 02:16:41,546
So you can make like slides and quips and like, it's good learning tool.

1856
02:16:41,746 --> 02:16:45,146
So I've recently been engaged playing with that, so to speak.

1857
02:16:45,186 --> 02:16:49,466
And it's done a lot of heavy lifting, you know, where I'm more used to critiquing stuff.

1858
02:16:49,466 --> 02:16:53,586
it's a lot harder for me generally speaking to find my voice and try and produce stuff

1859
02:16:53,586 --> 02:16:59,666
um a lot slower going because i'm highly critical of myself so perfect perfect enemy of the good

1860
02:16:59,666 --> 02:17:04,806
or less so maybe that will change some point but um yeah that's that's currently where i'm

1861
02:17:04,806 --> 02:17:09,686
where i'm at there's a youtube channel as well of like clips so if cons are on youtube but

1862
02:17:09,686 --> 02:17:15,306
clips of things like meese's lectures that have say bob murphy's example on security

1863
02:17:15,306 --> 02:17:18,546
of I clipped all the key parts of that

1864
02:17:18,546 --> 02:17:21,826
given I've needed that so many times to share with people.

1865
02:17:22,386 --> 02:17:24,526
And that's kind of the emphasis where it's,

1866
02:17:24,726 --> 02:17:29,346
hey, I see what your misconception is really quite clearly.

1867
02:17:29,886 --> 02:17:31,166
Like, here's the best resource.

1868
02:17:31,266 --> 02:17:33,886
And if you're intellectually honest and curious and open to reason,

1869
02:17:33,986 --> 02:17:37,766
you'll read it or view it and go, ah, okay.

1870
02:17:38,326 --> 02:17:40,406
But it's not necessarily always the case.

1871
02:17:40,606 --> 02:17:41,606
So it is what it is.

1872
02:17:42,306 --> 02:17:43,206
Not always, no.

1873
02:17:43,206 --> 02:17:54,426
So, yeah, one of the best tips I ever got on the creative process and moving forward is from Trey Parker of South Park fame.

1874
02:17:54,946 --> 02:17:57,686
There's a documentary on how they make that.

1875
02:17:58,306 --> 02:18:02,746
And he says that he could have spent two more months on the script.

1876
02:18:02,906 --> 02:18:08,086
He spends two days on the script and he could have spent two more months and it would have been 5% better.

1877
02:18:08,366 --> 02:18:11,906
So he aims for 95% perfection and not 100%.

1878
02:18:11,906 --> 02:18:17,226
And that's such a great unlocker of like just momentum in your creative process.

1879
02:18:17,466 --> 02:18:19,826
If you're a perfectionist, you get stuck.

1880
02:18:20,606 --> 02:18:25,166
And which means you never get to your next project, which would have been even better than the first one.

1881
02:18:25,246 --> 02:18:28,026
So like you need to kill your darlings at some point.

1882
02:18:28,146 --> 02:18:30,986
I found that very helpful myself anyway.

1883
02:18:31,246 --> 02:18:32,446
So final question.

1884
02:18:32,606 --> 02:18:34,386
What is Conrad Graf up to these days?

1885
02:18:36,446 --> 02:18:37,406
Great question.

1886
02:18:37,406 --> 02:18:43,586
personal stuff I think like in terms of like family and and um you know kids and and whatnot

1887
02:18:43,586 --> 02:18:50,046
so um I think he's um I'm trying to go to him to to kind of coming back on the front lines

1888
02:18:50,046 --> 02:18:55,426
um with us but the way I see it is like you know Stefan Kinsella is kind of known with being like

1889
02:18:55,426 --> 02:19:01,426
proper like hopper at every angle like you know of sorts in that regard like and he accepts that

1890
02:19:01,426 --> 02:19:04,366
And I feel like I'm the same with Conrad Graff's stuff.

1891
02:19:04,646 --> 02:19:12,546
But yeah, it's part of the piece about what was the initial click for me with him in that

1892
02:19:12,546 --> 02:19:18,506
regard was I saw such a quagmire, quagmire, whatever it is of like the debates with natural

1893
02:19:18,506 --> 02:19:23,906
law and natural rights and consequentialism, utilitarianism, all this stuff of like 2000

1894
02:19:23,906 --> 02:19:30,966
years of like philosophical baggage and Hopper's a prior of argumentation and argumentation

1895
02:19:30,966 --> 02:19:35,946
ethics and kind of cuts through that. But what Conrad's done when he wrote this action-based

1896
02:19:35,946 --> 02:19:42,206
jurisprudence monograph, journal article, you know, 2011, which phenomenal, please read,

1897
02:19:42,366 --> 02:19:48,846
is it kind of cleared up the scene, like not so changing much from like Hopper's perspective,

1898
02:19:48,986 --> 02:19:53,086
Austro-libertarianism or the hard yakka that Rothbard has done and me and Hopper,

1899
02:19:53,546 --> 02:19:58,786
but it was recategorized, not clarifying its position. And it's that whole image of,

1900
02:19:58,786 --> 02:20:05,326
So a tree, a trunk of, you know, you've got the first implications of like action at the

1901
02:20:05,326 --> 02:20:07,606
bottom of the trunk and then, oh, sorry, the roots.

1902
02:20:07,886 --> 02:20:10,866
And then it's like the trunk is essentially, well, there's like two branches.

1903
02:20:10,986 --> 02:20:15,126
Like Mises talked about economics is the best elaborated branch of praxeology.

1904
02:20:15,286 --> 02:20:18,546
And it's kind of leftover a question of, well, what's the other branch?

1905
02:20:18,986 --> 02:20:24,546
And the answer is legal theory or property theory, which it's just, it's essentially

1906
02:20:24,546 --> 02:20:32,666
the angle is rightfully putting them in their place and instead of the old trope of you know

1907
02:20:32,666 --> 02:20:41,066
block talking about like uh uh in um right space like economics is is is value free is um you know

1908
02:20:41,066 --> 02:20:48,646
what fry um is um is is that and then you've got oh it's libertarianism's ethics it's it's um it's

1909
02:20:48,646 --> 02:20:54,606
or base and like, no, like Hopper shatters that with his app prior of argumentation and

1910
02:20:54,606 --> 02:20:55,146
communication.

1911
02:20:55,146 --> 02:20:58,686
So it's, it's like clearing that up and that framework.

1912
02:20:58,686 --> 02:21:03,326
And then you, you avoid like 2000 years of, of philosophical baggage essentially.

1913
02:21:03,326 --> 02:21:05,626
And so that's the initial click.

1914
02:21:05,846 --> 02:21:09,746
Um, but yeah, it's, um, yeah, what's he up to these days?

1915
02:21:09,746 --> 02:21:13,626
I like to think he's just, I've, I've got several more, like several things he's written

1916
02:21:13,626 --> 02:21:17,566
over the years that haven't been published that are phenomenal that, yeah, I've, I'm

1917
02:21:17,566 --> 02:21:21,206
hoping he's a master of continuing going back and cleaning things up.

1918
02:21:21,206 --> 02:21:25,606
So hopefully there's less perfection from him in that regard.

1919
02:21:26,226 --> 02:21:26,786
And we see some-

1920
02:21:26,786 --> 02:21:27,386
No, that's fantastic.

1921
02:21:27,886 --> 02:21:28,426
Fantastic.

1922
02:21:28,606 --> 02:21:30,686
The jurisprudence essay is excellent.

1923
02:21:30,926 --> 02:21:36,446
A name that pops into my mind when we talk about lawful and legal is Frank Van Doon.

1924
02:21:36,806 --> 02:21:43,886
I read about when writing the praxeology book and just this distinction between lawful,

1925
02:21:43,886 --> 02:21:51,046
which is law according to discoverable law in other words property rights and legal which is

1926
02:21:51,046 --> 02:21:59,226
like made up by man which is what we live under uh in this legislation legislation victimless

1927
02:21:59,226 --> 02:22:06,926
crime bullshit that the state is in states impose on us while there is actually a discoverable way

1928
02:22:06,926 --> 02:22:09,626
of living in a civilized way.

1929
02:22:10,346 --> 02:22:12,046
And it's not an ought,

1930
02:22:12,226 --> 02:22:12,706
it's an is,

1931
02:22:12,906 --> 02:22:15,666
or at least it's as close to an ought

1932
02:22:15,666 --> 02:22:17,486
not as science can ever get.

1933
02:22:17,686 --> 02:22:19,106
It informs, it informs.

1934
02:22:19,246 --> 02:22:20,446
It's like, yeah, this is death,

1935
02:22:20,646 --> 02:22:21,446
this is aggression.

1936
02:22:21,866 --> 02:22:22,846
And then, yeah, okay,

1937
02:22:23,366 --> 02:22:24,566
ought you do that or not?

1938
02:22:24,866 --> 02:22:26,566
Like, ethics comes into it.

1939
02:22:26,566 --> 02:22:28,306
And like, obviously, yeah,

1940
02:22:28,466 --> 02:22:30,326
it's essentially,

1941
02:22:30,586 --> 02:22:31,126
it becomes,

1942
02:22:31,466 --> 02:22:33,226
transcends the is ought,

1943
02:22:33,466 --> 02:22:34,366
divide by bench,

1944
02:22:34,446 --> 02:22:35,926
essentially making the case

1945
02:22:35,926 --> 02:22:38,126
that the NAP, the non-aggression principle

1946
02:22:38,126 --> 02:22:40,826
is the only justifiable norm, essentially,

1947
02:22:41,666 --> 02:22:44,426
through his arguments, which is my blind.

1948
02:22:45,206 --> 02:22:47,346
The only universal and timeless one,

1949
02:22:47,966 --> 02:22:49,406
the right to be left alone.

1950
02:22:49,806 --> 02:22:53,186
So with that, thank you very much for coming on the show.

1951
02:22:53,506 --> 02:22:56,466
This is one of the longest episodes I've done in a while.

1952
02:22:56,646 --> 02:22:58,226
I hope people appreciate it.

1953
02:22:58,566 --> 02:22:59,406
Go follow CONSA.

1954
02:22:59,406 --> 02:23:02,326
Go read up on all the Austrian economics literature

1955
02:23:02,326 --> 02:23:04,626
you can find, you can find, except the bad one.

1956
02:23:05,926 --> 02:23:12,526
And then, yeah, go like, subscribe, comment, and brush your teeth and all of that.

1957
02:23:12,766 --> 02:23:13,846
And see you next time.

1958
02:23:13,986 --> 02:23:16,846
I mean, you're welcome back on whenever you want.

1959
02:23:17,086 --> 02:23:21,566
We'll keep the conversation going and I hope people get something out of this.

1960
02:23:22,226 --> 02:23:22,486
Awesome.

1961
02:23:22,946 --> 02:23:23,566
Thanks for having me.

1962
02:23:24,326 --> 02:23:24,746
Bye-bye.

1963
02:23:25,326 --> 02:23:26,946
This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show.

1964
02:23:27,486 --> 02:23:28,546
Thanks for watching.

1965
02:23:35,926 --> 02:24:05,906
Thank you.