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Max, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show.

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Thanks for joining us.

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Thank you for having me.

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Always

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happy.

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yeah, good to see you, Max.

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Uh,

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Good to see you as well, Knut.

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we happened to bump into one another here and there around the

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globe, and I just heard you just came back from Lugano, right?

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Yes.

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Back to somewhere from Lugano.

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Back to somewhere.

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To different locations, you know.

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I'm everywhere.

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I'm nowhere and everywhere.

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as one should be.

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And and you're, uh, what were you doing in Lugano?

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Can you tell our listeners that please?

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Yeah, I was, uh, there was like two, two things.

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Uh, first of all, I was invited as a guest lecturer to Plan B Business School,

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summer edition by one and only Giacomo Zucco, or as we call him Don Zucco.

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So he invited, uh, he invited me to give a lecture on, uh, Why Bitcoin

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is a super asset or super collateral, which is closer to my, to my field.

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And then, uh, also it was a business trip because we have recently

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incorporated in Switzerland our new project, which is Debify, debify.

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com.

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And we've been invited to join this amazing initiative, uh, which is

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called Plan B, and, uh, we're hopefully going to have an office there.

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We'll be, uh, we'll be there.

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So it's an amazing place, honestly.

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Expensive, as Switzerland is, but very good, very nice, uh, Lugano in particular,

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you know, it's like, it's like, has the southern wipes, which, uh, which I love.

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And, um, yeah, it's still, it's still Switzerland, you know,

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everything works very good.

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Uh, they're very, uh, I know that, like, it's a cringe word, but, you

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know, they're very crypto friendly.

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There's a lot of opportunities out there and like, um, say whatever you

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say, but Swiss regulation and Swiss laws are, I think, like 10 years ahead

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of everything else, you know, and, uh, in general, they're very much

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friendly towards, uh, Bitcoin people and people who own digital assets.

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So,

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Absolutely.

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for listening.

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these are not good words, digital assets and crypto, but, uh, well, I

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need to explain it to some extent.

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Thanks.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I would say 10 years behind and, and that is a good thing.

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They were the last country to go off the gold standard in Europe.

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So they still don't have, uh, most of the fiat problems.

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Yes, yes, yes.

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So they, they are.

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And obviously for us, for our new business, it's very good to be there

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because Switzerland is still Switzerland, you know, it's, it's a banking Mecca.

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It's a huge pool of liquidity and, uh, we're happy to be there.

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Yeah, and I was a guest lecturer myself, I'm proud to say, at the Plan

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B business school, like a month back.

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And, uh, yeah, I just love what Giacomo and the team are doing there.

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It's, it's so beautiful and it's such a great place to, to, to have this thing in.

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And it's not only there, it's in San Salvador and where else?

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Like, uh, in Asia somewhere, like Hong Kong, I think.

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Yeah, they have different hops across the world.

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So like, the two that I know are obviously Logano and then Sun Salvador.

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But, uh, but then they have other hops as well, and it's amazing.

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It's, it's an amazing initiative.

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Uh, very high quality of, uh, guest lecturers.

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Uh, except for me, but overall, you know, everyone else is very much skilled

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and, uh, uh, high quality of people.

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It's fantastic.

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And, and, uh, yeah, like, uh, go check it out, Plan B Network.

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the, the course is of course, uh, uh, available online and you can,

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you can join from anywhere on the globe and you can just watch the

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lectures from wherever you are.

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Um, I think the, what you joined was like the, the last stretch of

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it, which is like a week or two, uh, of the, the top students gathering

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in one of these hubs, right?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's a, it's a week, it's a final week in Logano.

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What I really like about Plan B Business School is that it, it's, um, it's actually

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focuses not only pure on technical developers, because most of the Bitcoin

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related education is, uh, you know, like.

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technical developers, you know, it's for technical developers, how to

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code, how to, how to do this and that.

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But that cohort was actually about business development.

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And I think as we approach The stage of the market where we actually

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see that there's like mass adoption coming in, and there's like a

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lot of interest from normies.

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I think we need more and more business developers or people who can actually

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take the amazing technology and sell the idea of Bitcoin in a proper

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way to normies and give them an understanding why Bitcoin is important.

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You know, not on the level of technical complications or technical things,

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and again, Bitcoin is beautiful, the code is amazing, everything, like,

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technical possibilities with Bitcoin are amazing, but purely as an idea, you

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know, that there's this amazing asset.

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Which can be yours if you do the self custody, which can be unconfiscatable

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if you, if you properly own it.

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So there's a lot, a lot, a lot of things inside and that was part of my

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lecture when I was trying to, you know, explain in the words of a person who's

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in the space, but I'm not a technical person to explain to people how you

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can, you know, orange pill other people who are not very technical.

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Yeah, and it's great that people like you and me can come and give lectures

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Yeah, yeah,

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about such a technical subject.

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yeah, that's a good

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no, it's, it's fantastic.

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And uh, yeah, I love, I love what they're doing there, as I said, and, uh, the,

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the, I think I'm paraphrasing Giacomo here, but I think the, the goal of the

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thing was that all of these 21 students, the top students from the course.

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Would each have a job in the Bitcoin space in one way or another after

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the course is completed, right?

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Yes, yes, yes, it's true, it's true.

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So, uh, they will apply for jobs, so they will have their own businesses,

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whatever, but hopefully, you know, we'll have, uh, 21 more, 21 more

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person joining the space and trying to orange pill as much people as possible.

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Not only 21 people, but 21 excellent people.

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Yes, yes.

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They have proof of results to show what they are and what they're capable of.

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Anyway, we're getting ahead of ourselves.

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Uh, Max, uh, we, we met for the first time back in 2019 when I packed a hand luggage

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and fooled my fiat company that I was going to visit a maritime academy in Riga

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when I was really going to your fantastic Bitcoin conference, one of my favorites in

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the world alongside I would say Atlantis and Prague, but Riga is very special to

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me and has a special place in my heart.

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Uh, the Baltic Honey Badger Conference.

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I went there with a hand luggage and 50 books tucked into it next to a

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couple of t shirts and some underwear.

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And, uh, hardly even a toothbrush.

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And, uh, uh, that's where my sort of journey as an official Bitcoin

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person sort of started by just piling those books up on a random table

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and, uh, and seeing what happened.

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Uh, so how, give us the history a bit about yourself and the history of the

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Baltic Honey Badger Conference, please.

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How the, how did the whole thing start?

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So yeah, I'm originally a private banker, you know, I was on the

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dark side, or on the bright side, depends on which side you are on now.

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So, um, originally I was in TradeFi, but I was always into fintech.

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And at some point, one of my customers, um, introduced me to this new thing called

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Bitcoin and, um, he started, like, orange pilling me step by step, you know, and

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at some point he just, uh, you know, he told me, like, there will be no reason

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for you to exist as a banker in the future, you know, you will be obsolete

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because, you see, I can just take my mobile phone and send 50, 000 worth

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of Bitcoin to my friend in Brazil now.

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Friday evening with, uh, and at that point the transaction cost was very

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low, you know, it was very, very low, and he said, like, I can send this 50,

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000 thing, just one cent, and he will, he will receive it like in 10 minutes.

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And I was like, dude is clearly crazy, but it kind of hooked me up, uh, on the

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idea of, of this, of this thing, and I started to do the research, and at some

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point I just understand, well, Bitcoin is like the essence of FinTech, you know,

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you have a code, and you have the money.

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And it all came into existence in one particular thing, which is Bitcoin.

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And, um, yeah, when, when, next time he came in, he said,

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like, you want to work for me?

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And I said, sure, why not?

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And, uh, I left my, uh, I left my fiat job, uh, joined the company.

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And then, um, at some point, uh, started contributing to HODLHODL.

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And at that point, everyone was crazy about blockchain, ICO, every conference

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you went to was about blockchains and tokenization and all that stuff.

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That was, I think,

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2017, so it was that part of the, it was that time.

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And, uh, well, we were like, um, very much about Bitcoin, you

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know, we didn't understand that, uh, never understood actually.

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And we decided, well, there's no, like, Bitcoin only

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conference, and we should do it.

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We first tested out our, like, uh, our theory with organizing a meetup in Riga,

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and that was hugely, highly successful.

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There was a lot of people.

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We didn't expect that much of people coming in.

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And, uh, we decided, well, let's, let's try and organize something bigger.

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And then, eventually, we did, uh, in 2017, we did the first Honeybadger.

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It was November.

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You've been to Riga, Knut, you know that November is probably one of the

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worst months to be in Baltic States.

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Fucking freezing.

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But we have, uh, we had like Andreas Antonopoulos, Adam Beck, Peter

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Todd, Giacomo Zucco coming in.

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And there was like a lot of other, Elizabeth Stark.

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And we were lucky at some point.

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Because again, I always say that.

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I'm grateful to Andreas because he was the first big name to agree to come to Riga.

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And, um, everyone else just followed.

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You know, they saw that Andreas is speaking and they just decided.

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Uh, and the story behind me inviting Andreas was very simple.

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I just went to the website and just wrote him an email.

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That's it.

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Uh, and he just replied in 30 minutes.

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You know, yeah, I'm interested.

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When it's going to happen, I'm going to come.

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So, uh, so first edition was, uh, like two days, uh, it was very funny because

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it wasn't that packed as now, you know, and we had like five talks maybe per

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day, maybe even less, you know, a lot of panels, a lot of different discussions

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and actually Honey Badger was initially, uh, created to promote HODLHODL.

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You know, we, we thought like we can create this event.

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To promote HODLHODL.

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And, uh, but then it was so It was so successful that eventually it's

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like, it's a separate thing now, you know, it's, it's, it's not connected.

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Still, a lot of people, of course, think that FotoFoto organizes HoneyBedger,

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which to some extent is true, but, uh, HoneyBedger is like a completely

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separate, uh, sovereign individual, you know, completely like independent beast.

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And, uh, then, then it was 2019.

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It was bigger 2019 when you came in.

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Then after 2019 we had the covid and uh, then we restarted it in 2022 and yeah.

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there, sorry for interrupting, but was there one in 2018?

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2019.

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2019.

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Yes.

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We kind of, we kind of had a simple run as Michael Jordan had with the

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winning championships, you know.

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But the first one was in 2017,

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First one was in 2017, yeah.

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We are, uh,

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not in the same venue as the ones in, uh,

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no, no, no.

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It was a, it was in, in the very heart of Old Town, a basement,

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uh, art gallery in the basement.

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Dark, no window, nothing.

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And like, uh, and the second day was actually in another, uh, venue.

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It was a co working.

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uh, owned by one of our sponsors and then the the 2018 2019 one is this wasn't

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that warehouse where you have been and then we had a like COVID break for two

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years and in 2022 we started a new venue which is which was uh last year as well

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and it's gonna be this year as well.

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yeah, yeah, and the Phantodromes is a great venue, yeah,

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It's a, it's a great, it's a great venue because it's a new venue, kind of new, so.

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Uh, like the warehouse still gives you, and I, and I hear a lot of, uh,

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people like saying, you know, 2019 or 2018, the venue was amazing, it was

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where, it was amazing, but it's still pain in the ass to organize everything.

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Good thing with Fantadroms is just, it's just plug and play, you know, you need

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to spend two hours between events, clean up everything, and then you can go.

231
00:14:51,259 --> 00:14:52,219
It's easy to set up.

232
00:14:52,219 --> 00:14:52,909
It's easy to run.

233
00:14:53,647 --> 00:14:58,417
yeah, I have so many great memories from that 2019 one,

234
00:14:58,557 --> 00:15:00,247
and yeah, the venue was great.

235
00:15:00,492 --> 00:15:04,962
I can see why you switched it though, because Phantodromes seems much more

236
00:15:04,992 --> 00:15:08,542
convenient, and I like Phantodromes too, it's not a bad venue at all,

237
00:15:08,542 --> 00:15:12,978
it's a great venue, and like, there's possibility for side stages, and also

238
00:15:12,978 --> 00:15:17,882
booths, and all sort of stuff that wasn't possible in that big warehouse,

239
00:15:17,882 --> 00:15:20,767
I think, uh, but you know, it's, I don't know, I'm not a big fan of booths.

240
00:15:21,027 --> 00:15:25,317
This is my first, uh, the one in 2019 is my first, right,

241
00:15:25,487 --> 00:15:27,347
uh, Bitcoin only conference.

242
00:15:27,447 --> 00:15:30,607
And there were a handful, I guess, before that.

243
00:15:30,617 --> 00:15:35,137
Like, you started it back two years earlier, which is just weird, because I,

244
00:15:35,257 --> 00:15:41,667
the first Crypto event I went to was in Stockholm in 2017, a thing called Bloxpo.

245
00:15:41,887 --> 00:15:44,497
And I felt like the only Bitcoiner in the room.

246
00:15:44,777 --> 00:15:48,877
Everyone was shilling like football coin or haircut coin or whatever coin.

247
00:15:49,657 --> 00:15:52,987
And they, I was there for one reason, one reason only that that's,

248
00:15:53,487 --> 00:15:55,317
that they invited Richard Hart.

249
00:15:55,867 --> 00:15:58,447
And that very night, Richard Hart told me.

250
00:15:58,687 --> 00:16:02,207
That he was planning to become a shitcoiner and launch his own shitcoin

251
00:16:02,217 --> 00:16:06,637
because he was jealous of all the other people who were driving Lambos or whatnot.

252
00:16:06,857 --> 00:16:12,227
Well, maybe not jealous of them for driving Lambos because he, he claimed

253
00:16:12,227 --> 00:16:16,767
that he was very rich already, which he does, you know, but before he became

254
00:16:16,767 --> 00:16:20,947
a shitcoiner, he was kind of based and like, uh, when, when he was all.

255
00:16:21,232 --> 00:16:22,082
All in on Bitcoin.

256
00:16:22,092 --> 00:16:26,972
So I went there to see him and that was just, just after Bitcoin had

257
00:16:26,972 --> 00:16:30,272
gone up to a thousand, I think, and then dropped to 200 or something.

258
00:16:30,592 --> 00:16:36,482
So he was, uh, he sort of fell off the bandwagon that very night and

259
00:16:36,482 --> 00:16:39,892
started talking about, oh, maybe this wasn't such a good idea after all.

260
00:16:39,892 --> 00:16:43,202
And everyone was, there was a politician there and all sorts of.

261
00:16:44,402 --> 00:16:45,272
Ah, it's tiresome.

262
00:16:45,282 --> 00:16:50,382
So when I found this Riga thing, and I saw the footage from 2018, and I thought

263
00:16:50,382 --> 00:16:55,132
like, all my online, newfound online friends are here, I need to go here, I

264
00:16:55,132 --> 00:16:59,062
need to figure out a way to get over to, get my ass over to Riga next year, like,

265
00:16:59,112 --> 00:17:00,642
because I'm missing out on something.

266
00:17:00,972 --> 00:17:05,432
And it's so beautiful, it's like the first time I met so many people in person, like,

267
00:17:06,052 --> 00:17:11,947
uh, Gigi, Max Hillebrand, and The Wizard of Oz, and Seyfedine, and Piero Carden.

268
00:17:12,387 --> 00:17:17,207
Giacomo, and all of these great people, they were all there in 2019 and it's, it's

269
00:17:17,427 --> 00:17:20,117
such a, such a great experience for me.

270
00:17:20,631 --> 00:17:24,491
uh, and just standing there at a table being a nobody with

271
00:17:24,491 --> 00:17:27,781
my little book and seeing what happens and the rest is history.

272
00:17:28,781 --> 00:17:29,701
I mean, yeah.

273
00:17:29,951 --> 00:17:34,661
And, uh, now it's, I plan to go every year I can, like, I'm not missing

274
00:17:34,741 --> 00:17:36,581
Honeybadger for anything in the world.

275
00:17:36,701 --> 00:17:37,041
It's,

276
00:17:37,156 --> 00:17:43,326
You know, the case with Honeybadger is that we always stick with our core

277
00:17:43,356 --> 00:17:47,676
principles, you know, being Bitcoin only and trying to, you know, we don't

278
00:17:47,696 --> 00:17:54,682
fall for, good and nice sponsorships from if we are, if we're, if we feel

279
00:17:54,682 --> 00:17:58,892
we're not aligned with the sponsor, you know, we don't sell speaker slots.

280
00:17:59,907 --> 00:18:02,317
Uh, which is, which is a no go for us.

281
00:18:02,667 --> 00:18:08,387
Um, sometimes it happens that those who sponsor us are high quality people

282
00:18:08,397 --> 00:18:12,597
and high quality companies, and we do provide them with, uh, with, uh, with the

283
00:18:12,617 --> 00:18:16,017
speaking slots, but nevertheless, whether they sponsor or not, they're there.

284
00:18:16,702 --> 00:18:21,712
And another thing is that, uh, we're blessed, uh, we're not like conference

285
00:18:21,762 --> 00:18:26,852
organizers by, by, by our, like, core contribution to the ecosystem,

286
00:18:26,872 --> 00:18:30,752
you know, it's not our main thing to organize conferences, we are

287
00:18:31,302 --> 00:18:35,262
builders, we build tools, we build platforms, you know, for, for Bitcoin.

288
00:18:36,282 --> 00:18:39,962
And we're blessed with that because we basically don't care, just like Honey

289
00:18:39,972 --> 00:18:44,072
Badger, we don't give a fuck how much money you can pay to us if we don't

290
00:18:44,082 --> 00:18:46,262
align with your values or principles.

291
00:18:46,522 --> 00:18:50,002
We're just not going to allow you in our space, you know, and that's,

292
00:18:50,322 --> 00:18:51,902
we're not the biggest conference.

293
00:18:51,902 --> 00:18:52,552
Definitely.

294
00:18:52,582 --> 00:18:58,952
We're very small, very cozy, but we, we actually deliberately, uh, keep them,

295
00:18:59,182 --> 00:19:05,682
keep the amount of people below 1000 because If you go over the top of 1000,

296
00:19:06,342 --> 00:19:11,402
you lose that vibe, which is, uh, like Honey Badger is a huge meetup of people.

297
00:19:12,222 --> 00:19:17,172
Who are not missing it every year, they're coming there, they're sharing new ideas,

298
00:19:17,242 --> 00:19:22,232
they're discussing the old ideas, and they just enjoy being there, you know, and

299
00:19:22,242 --> 00:19:27,567
that's, that's the vibe we like, and we're very, very much blessed with having the

300
00:19:27,577 --> 00:19:34,417
loyal, uh, attendees, just like you or, or any other out there, or just whatever

301
00:19:34,427 --> 00:19:38,597
we will put on the stage, they will come there as long as it's about Bitcoin, and

302
00:19:38,617 --> 00:19:43,567
the person is like, truly, Passionate about what he's saying or she's saying.

303
00:19:44,210 --> 00:19:48,980
Yeah, it's truly a legendary conference at this point, and it's because of this

304
00:19:48,980 --> 00:19:51,580
high signal to noise ratio that you have.

305
00:19:52,060 --> 00:19:56,570
I guess for some people it's a bit scary because it's quite a technical conference.

306
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,870
A lot of the talks are pretty technical and pretty high level.

307
00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:05,860
But if you want pure Bitcoiner stuff, and pure, Maxi stuff or monetary

308
00:20:06,460 --> 00:20:10,030
maximalism or whatever you may call it, like, this is, this is the thing that

309
00:20:10,100 --> 00:20:12,000
it's, it's not pulling any punches.

310
00:20:12,910 --> 00:20:14,130
The real people are there.

311
00:20:14,422 --> 00:20:19,322
Yeah, and another thing, we put a lot of efforts towards, uh, you know, providing

312
00:20:19,372 --> 00:20:22,382
content and, and curating the content.

313
00:20:22,432 --> 00:20:27,162
And it's not necessarily the most famous people in the space, you know, people

314
00:20:27,172 --> 00:20:29,662
with a lot of followers in the space.

315
00:20:29,752 --> 00:20:32,732
It's mostly the people who can actually bring value.

316
00:20:33,622 --> 00:20:39,967
And we would tend to We had an experience of that person was first time speaking

317
00:20:39,967 --> 00:20:44,307
at Baltic Honey Badger, then he or she was invited to a lot of conferences.

318
00:20:44,387 --> 00:20:50,737
Like, uh, Honey Badger acts as a sandbox sometimes for, for people who might not

319
00:20:50,747 --> 00:20:54,917
have the loudest voice in the space, but they have some things to say.

320
00:20:55,027 --> 00:21:00,817
And in most use cases, this, this, the things that they say are way more

321
00:21:00,867 --> 00:21:06,057
rational, logical, and aligned with Bitcoin than those things that say people

322
00:21:06,067 --> 00:21:11,682
who are like, Millions or hundreds of thousands of followers in this space.

323
00:21:12,417 --> 00:21:17,757
Now, uh, Baltic Honey Badger is to Bitcoin what David Bowie was to pop music.

324
00:21:18,477 --> 00:21:21,987
It's, it's the, it's the Bitcoiners Bitcoin conference, you know?

325
00:21:22,232 --> 00:21:23,332
Yeah, thank you.

326
00:21:23,512 --> 00:21:24,572
Thank you very much.

327
00:21:25,020 --> 00:21:31,150
so I'm interested in, in sort of your take on, since Honey Badger has sort of

328
00:21:31,150 --> 00:21:35,410
turned into you got all these Bitcoiners coming into, to Riga and to Latvia.

329
00:21:35,410 --> 00:21:38,530
And, and, and by the way, it was also my first time in the,

330
00:21:38,530 --> 00:21:40,130
in the space as well, 2022.

331
00:21:40,130 --> 00:21:44,100
And so, I mean, I'm, I'm newer here, but that was the first time I met

332
00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:46,030
Knut, the first time I met everyone.

333
00:21:46,395 --> 00:21:51,355
And, uh, uh, there was no plan to it at all, but I just ended up in the Konsensus

334
00:21:51,525 --> 00:21:56,905
Network booth selling books with Knut and Daniel and Jimmy Song and all them, right?

335
00:21:56,915 --> 00:22:02,495
And, uh, uh, yeah, there was no plan to it, but, uh, and I'd gotten connected to

336
00:22:02,495 --> 00:22:07,065
these guys only a couple of weeks before, but life moves fast, so, and Bitcoin.

337
00:22:07,725 --> 00:22:11,015
Um, but it's awesome, and, and, and, I mean, I, I think it's, I think

338
00:22:11,015 --> 00:22:14,855
it's this hub for not even just the Baltics, but the, the Nordics as well.

339
00:22:14,855 --> 00:22:15,675
I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's awesome.

340
00:22:15,945 --> 00:22:19,635
It's the closest thing in the neighborhood, really, for this whole

341
00:22:19,635 --> 00:22:24,506
region, so it's, it's, it's fantastic, so, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm curious,

342
00:22:24,556 --> 00:22:29,426
though, like, uh, what, what is the situation in, in Latvia, generally?

343
00:22:29,426 --> 00:22:34,226
I mean, it's, it's, it's obviously the, you know, post Soviet, uh, part

344
00:22:34,226 --> 00:22:35,776
of the Baltic states and everything.

345
00:22:35,776 --> 00:22:38,596
It's got its, its own history there.

346
00:22:38,736 --> 00:22:41,556
Um, care to get into that or, or

347
00:22:41,676 --> 00:22:43,446
Yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure.

348
00:22:43,576 --> 00:22:44,076
Feel free.

349
00:22:44,766 --> 00:22:49,646
Like, the situation, uh, well, obviously everything is very tense here, because,

350
00:22:49,926 --> 00:22:54,706
uh, things are happening between, uh, not between, but actually in Ukraine.

351
00:22:55,566 --> 00:23:01,106
So, uh, and, like, Baltics are just basically sharing

352
00:23:01,376 --> 00:23:02,986
the same border with Russia.

353
00:23:04,086 --> 00:23:11,086
So, um, there's certain tension but, uh, overall, as usual, you know, Nordics,

354
00:23:11,106 --> 00:23:16,316
Baltics, we're very calm people, you know, we don't, we're not very emotional,

355
00:23:16,876 --> 00:23:23,556
Northern type of people, so life, life just goes on and people just live that

356
00:23:23,556 --> 00:23:29,766
life and, uh, I think that, uh, what happened, uh, recently with all this,

357
00:23:30,166 --> 00:23:32,686
uh, things that happening in Ukraine.

358
00:23:33,351 --> 00:23:40,021
Uh, just first, first months, everyone was in shock and then everyone stopped

359
00:23:40,091 --> 00:23:44,601
acting, you know, doing the thing, helping, which we actually did last year.

360
00:23:45,151 --> 00:23:48,701
If you remember, we raised some, we did a fundraising for

361
00:23:48,701 --> 00:23:53,781
Ukraine, for Ukrainian refugees in Latvia, and I'm very proud of it.

362
00:23:54,411 --> 00:23:59,251
Um, so hopefully we're going to do something this year as well.

363
00:23:59,891 --> 00:24:03,851
Uh, because I think that one of the things that Bitcoin actually can fix

364
00:24:04,011 --> 00:24:08,571
is all these things with donations and, you know, sending money to the,

365
00:24:08,621 --> 00:24:14,331
to the country that is basically in active war phase, you know, there's

366
00:24:14,331 --> 00:24:16,361
active warfare happening in the country.

367
00:24:16,451 --> 00:24:21,941
So, uh, overall, in terms of if we, if you ask me about Bitcoin.

368
00:24:22,491 --> 00:24:27,731
I think except for Baltic Honey Badger, there's, uh, there's nothing

369
00:24:27,731 --> 00:24:30,721
in Latvia in that sense, you know, if we talk about purely about Bitcoin,

370
00:24:31,161 --> 00:24:37,791
there are some companies in crypto space in general, and some of them are

371
00:24:37,791 --> 00:24:43,361
very big companies, uh, on the global scale, you know, it's not just about

372
00:24:43,411 --> 00:24:44,911
Latvia, it's on the global scale.

373
00:24:45,671 --> 00:24:50,651
And, uh, different, I'm not going to show any of them, but they, they are

374
00:24:50,721 --> 00:24:55,531
like, um, and we have also association, which are pretty much active and

375
00:24:55,531 --> 00:24:57,331
they also do their part of the job.

376
00:24:57,331 --> 00:25:04,201
So, but overall, I would say it's not, there's, there's basically.

377
00:25:04,651 --> 00:25:09,881
Close to zero community, Bitcoin community in Latvia, you know, there's some, some

378
00:25:09,881 --> 00:25:15,081
Bitcoin meetups, uh, with, uh, with some amount of people, there's like

379
00:25:15,381 --> 00:25:17,601
basement bar, which is a Bitcoin bar.

380
00:25:18,081 --> 00:25:22,001
Uh, of course, you will experience that if you come to Baltic, any measure,

381
00:25:22,666 --> 00:25:27,986
You, we have to do some chilling here, like come to Riga this year, and it

382
00:25:28,026 --> 00:25:32,396
will be the most amazing Baltic Honey Badger ever, and we're throwing,

383
00:25:32,563 --> 00:25:32,926
of course.

384
00:25:33,526 --> 00:25:38,746
we're throwing a party on Bitcoin Infinity Day, the launch date of our new book,

385
00:25:39,066 --> 00:25:45,826
we're throwing a party, an almost free party at the basement bar, and we're,

386
00:25:45,836 --> 00:25:50,106
we're doing the thing, so if we see you there, uh, expect a hug or two,

387
00:25:50,766 --> 00:25:56,276
yeah, last year, they actually launched, uh, during the Honey Badger, so it

388
00:25:56,356 --> 00:26:00,206
wasn't like there, there wasn't like testing phase, you know, in beta, I

389
00:26:00,206 --> 00:26:02,996
would say, and it was already amazing.

390
00:26:02,996 --> 00:26:07,466
This year, so over the course of the last year, they have significantly improved.

391
00:26:08,271 --> 00:26:13,941
They have hired new bartenders, so it's very high quality drinks now,

392
00:26:14,021 --> 00:26:18,621
very good, so definitely come to Riga, definitely come to your event,

393
00:26:19,001 --> 00:26:20,861
which will be on 21st of August.

394
00:26:21,481 --> 00:26:23,891
So we will have a huge week of events.

395
00:26:24,521 --> 00:26:27,851
Uh, which we call Riga Bitcoin week, but it's, but this year it's

396
00:26:27,851 --> 00:26:29,321
not going to be only about Bitcoin.

397
00:26:29,681 --> 00:26:34,121
It's going to be a new day, uh, its usual kickoff, uh, event

398
00:26:34,121 --> 00:26:35,711
for, for the Riga Bitcoin week.

399
00:26:35,711 --> 00:26:39,631
Then it's going to be two days of AMA amazing Nos rga, which

400
00:26:39,636 --> 00:26:41,461
is a noster based conference.

401
00:26:42,346 --> 00:26:46,216
And I'm really happy that we're going to have a lot of Nostr people

402
00:26:46,216 --> 00:26:51,776
and finally we can connect in one, like, you know, huge, huge event.

403
00:26:51,776 --> 00:26:56,436
Nostr, two days of Nostr and then two days of Bitcoin, uh,

404
00:26:56,456 --> 00:26:58,006
during the Baltic Honey Badger.

405
00:26:58,456 --> 00:27:02,696
I think that Nostr and Bitcoin is actually pretty much interconnected.

406
00:27:02,796 --> 00:27:04,986
They kind of complement each other.

407
00:27:05,541 --> 00:27:06,761
Which is a great thing.

408
00:27:06,951 --> 00:27:12,881
And, um, then we will obviously close the week as usual with BTCPIX Server Day.

409
00:27:13,641 --> 00:27:19,621
This year they will have an amazing venue, like really cyber funkish great venue.

410
00:27:20,051 --> 00:27:24,191
Uh, and, uh, they will also have a lot of special guests.

411
00:27:24,641 --> 00:27:29,971
Like, they just announced Odo coming to BTCPay server day and there will be more.

412
00:27:30,421 --> 00:27:34,891
So, yeah, it will be like full week packed of events, but it's not gonna

413
00:27:34,901 --> 00:27:40,581
be as stressful as this, uh, like, you know, large conferences with plus 10,

414
00:27:40,581 --> 00:27:46,781
000 people, you know, when you basically need to run in order to, uh, you know,

415
00:27:46,821 --> 00:27:49,041
to, to get, uh, to meet everyone.

416
00:27:49,071 --> 00:27:52,921
In Riga, what's the good thing, because of the size that we try to keep, You

417
00:27:52,921 --> 00:27:57,651
know, you get to talk with everyone during the, the, these two days or during

418
00:27:57,661 --> 00:28:01,381
the week, you will be able to interact with most of the people in the space.

419
00:28:02,071 --> 00:28:08,891
And the good thing that I love that our speakers, um, I don't

420
00:28:08,891 --> 00:28:12,171
know, maybe because of multi county measure or because of Riga.

421
00:28:12,601 --> 00:28:19,141
They're so humble that basically you can just, you don't need to go to,

422
00:28:19,831 --> 00:28:23,821
uh, you know, to some close parties and events to meet with these people.

423
00:28:23,861 --> 00:28:24,621
They are there.

424
00:28:24,621 --> 00:28:28,151
They're walking, uh, during the Honey Badger at the venue.

425
00:28:28,161 --> 00:28:30,626
You can talk with anyone and, uh, you know.

426
00:28:30,936 --> 00:28:32,276
You can interact with people.

427
00:28:32,276 --> 00:28:36,126
As you said, you know, people who you follow on Twitter, who you only know by

428
00:28:36,156 --> 00:28:39,756
Twitter, you can meet them in real life, you can talk with them, understand that

429
00:28:39,756 --> 00:28:44,886
they're very humble, nice people, and they will spend, give you 5 minutes or

430
00:28:44,936 --> 00:28:50,016
10 minutes or even more of their time, particularly for you, will talk to you,

431
00:28:50,046 --> 00:28:54,706
will listen to you, and I think these are the best conversations out there.

432
00:28:55,671 --> 00:28:56,381
Absolutely.

433
00:28:56,411 --> 00:29:01,011
And, and, uh, speaking of BTC pay server, like the, the, the full story of the

434
00:29:01,011 --> 00:29:06,321
basement bar includes a story about BTC pay server and making sure that the, like

435
00:29:06,351 --> 00:29:11,831
providing all these, uh, point of sale terminals and for, for all the, the, the,

436
00:29:11,831 --> 00:29:16,741
um, fast food things outside of the venue as well, so that everyone surrounding

437
00:29:16,751 --> 00:29:20,001
the, the conference, every side event and everything could accept Bitcoin.

438
00:29:20,571 --> 00:29:22,001
Uh, so, so it's.

439
00:29:22,351 --> 00:29:25,561
Noob day, which is fantastic for, for people who are new to this.

440
00:29:27,006 --> 00:29:30,526
It's a day of lectures and, and it's very friendly and very

441
00:29:30,876 --> 00:29:32,816
like, uh, inviting to noobs.

442
00:29:32,886 --> 00:29:35,606
And, and then there's, then there's our little infinity day

443
00:29:35,606 --> 00:29:39,706
party at the basement bar where you can pay BTC pay server stuff.

444
00:29:40,026 --> 00:29:43,556
And then there's the two days of Nostriga and then the conference

445
00:29:43,556 --> 00:29:44,986
and then BTC pay server day.

446
00:29:44,986 --> 00:29:45,446
Right.

447
00:29:46,122 --> 00:29:50,532
and BTC pay server, by the way, was also the payment provider for Bitcoin Atlantis,

448
00:29:50,722 --> 00:29:55,217
which is now announced that it will be every fourth year, which is also, uh, As

449
00:29:55,217 --> 00:30:00,257
you know, an event that is very close to my heart, and they processed, what was

450
00:30:00,277 --> 00:30:02,957
it like, they had an official figure, 2.

451
00:30:03,077 --> 00:30:07,258
16 Bitcoin, I believe, for selling hamburgers and coffee and stuff over

452
00:30:07,258 --> 00:30:11,339
the Lightning Network, without any hassle whatsoever with any payment.

453
00:30:12,069 --> 00:30:16,124
It's just, the future is already here, you can just, Either you

454
00:30:16,134 --> 00:30:20,434
choose to live in it or not, like that, that's, that's the gist of it.

455
00:30:21,070 --> 00:30:22,000
Yeah, it's amazing.

456
00:30:22,010 --> 00:30:25,130
The setup that we did, actually, again, Honey Badger was the

457
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:30,360
first, uh, first conference that, uh, did that setup last year.

458
00:30:30,460 --> 00:30:36,200
So we were, again, the sandbox for this, and then all others followed, uh,

459
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:41,790
basically Madeira did this, and then, as far as I know, Bitcoin Hong Kong did this.

460
00:30:41,940 --> 00:30:46,000
So now more and more conferences are, like, jumping on the train and, you

461
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:53,015
know, Accepting, uh, you know, providing infrastructure using BTCPayServer, we're

462
00:30:53,195 --> 00:30:55,985
very much, you know, happy to do that.

463
00:30:56,015 --> 00:30:59,115
We're always very supportive of BTCPayServer guys, and

464
00:30:59,115 --> 00:31:00,465
they also help us as well.

465
00:31:01,205 --> 00:31:03,655
Amazing crew, amazing people, you know, amazing project.

466
00:31:04,633 --> 00:31:05,643
No, it's fantastic.

467
00:31:05,653 --> 00:31:10,373
So remember to brush your damn teeth and use code FREEDOM for your 10

468
00:31:10,373 --> 00:31:12,003
percent off your ticket to Regang.

469
00:31:12,223 --> 00:31:14,723
Get your ass over there and celebrate Infinity Day with us

470
00:31:14,943 --> 00:31:16,323
and, uh, and the book launch.

471
00:31:17,493 --> 00:31:19,573
It's going to be amazing, definitely.

472
00:31:19,583 --> 00:31:22,693
Every honey badger is better than the previous one, but every

473
00:31:22,733 --> 00:31:24,183
honey badger is also different.

474
00:31:24,703 --> 00:31:26,323
So, it's going to be cool.

475
00:31:27,246 --> 00:31:28,036
Absolutely.

476
00:33:09,249 --> 00:33:12,979
Max, like the other, the other thing you're involved with these days, I

477
00:33:12,989 --> 00:33:21,209
remember the announcements for the launch of DebiFi at HoneyBadger, uh, and, uh,

478
00:33:21,489 --> 00:33:27,999
well, can you tell us what is DebiFi and, uh, what, what DebiFi is doing?

479
00:33:28,604 --> 00:33:34,134
Yeah, so the announcement was actually, um, as usual with technical development,

480
00:33:34,134 --> 00:33:37,804
we did an announcement expecting that we were going to launch soon, but eventually

481
00:33:37,804 --> 00:33:41,964
we just kept building, building, building, and it took us a while.

482
00:33:42,899 --> 00:33:46,849
Uh, finally, we're live, up and running since, uh, this March.

483
00:33:47,069 --> 00:33:53,859
So, um, basically the idea of DeFi is to bridge, um, institutional lenders or

484
00:33:53,859 --> 00:33:57,619
institution who has liquidity, whether it's fiat or stablecoin with bitcoiners

485
00:33:59,289 --> 00:34:04,329
across the world, whether, whether these are like private individuals or companies

486
00:34:04,329 --> 00:34:06,169
that have a bitcoin on the balance sheet.

487
00:34:06,269 --> 00:34:12,414
And, um, we want to, we're kind of We built an institutional

488
00:34:12,414 --> 00:34:15,844
peer to peer, where you can basically go online as a Bitcoiner.

489
00:34:18,734 --> 00:34:23,954
if you don't want to sell your Bitcoin, which you should be, you shouldn't be

490
00:34:23,954 --> 00:34:29,094
doing, you know, never selling, only, uh, but still, you want to, you want to

491
00:34:29,104 --> 00:34:31,114
have certain utility for your Bitcoin.

492
00:34:31,114 --> 00:34:32,564
And what's the way of doing this?

493
00:34:32,934 --> 00:34:35,684
Using Bitcoin as collateral, borrowing against that.

494
00:34:36,604 --> 00:34:41,444
So we provide a platform or like lending aggregator where you can

495
00:34:41,444 --> 00:34:48,494
go online, you can input your, um, your criteria for a loan.

496
00:34:49,279 --> 00:34:52,969
And then we'll give you a certain list of offers from different lenders.

497
00:34:53,859 --> 00:34:58,559
That will match your criteria and you can choose and then you proceed to

498
00:34:58,559 --> 00:35:04,339
the contract creation stage where you will create a contract and the good

499
00:35:04,469 --> 00:35:10,169
thing is that your collateral will be stored in multisig and the multisig

500
00:35:10,169 --> 00:35:12,299
will be protected with four keys.

501
00:35:12,759 --> 00:35:16,759
You will have one of the keys as lender will have one of the keys.

502
00:35:17,219 --> 00:35:19,639
Debitfi as a platform will have one of the keys.

503
00:35:19,909 --> 00:35:23,989
And then there's a fourth key holder, uh, authorized key holder, which,

504
00:35:24,089 --> 00:35:25,729
uh, which holds the backup key.

505
00:35:26,119 --> 00:35:29,669
So the Konsensus work with three of the four, so there's no opportunity

506
00:35:29,669 --> 00:35:31,329
for us to re opticate that.

507
00:35:32,069 --> 00:35:38,399
Uh, it's non custodial, it's safe, and it has all the flexibility because you

508
00:35:38,399 --> 00:35:43,744
can do a counter offer to the lender, you can say, okay, I, I kind of don't

509
00:35:43,784 --> 00:35:45,504
like the rate that you're providing me.

510
00:35:45,504 --> 00:35:48,174
Maybe we can agree on something so you can negotiate with us.

511
00:35:48,344 --> 00:35:51,024
It's not like cutting the stone, you know, it's, it's more

512
00:35:51,024 --> 00:35:52,854
like open system in that way.

513
00:35:53,614 --> 00:35:57,104
And yeah, we see a huge demand from the lender side.

514
00:35:57,104 --> 00:36:00,084
There's a lot of banks, a lot of trade fine companies that are

515
00:36:00,084 --> 00:36:02,704
actually looking into it as we speak.

516
00:36:03,304 --> 00:36:07,334
And, uh, obviously there's a huge amount from Bitcorners because again, as

517
00:36:07,394 --> 00:36:11,584
Bitcoin price will go up and up and up, there's less incentives for you to sell.

518
00:36:12,484 --> 00:36:18,614
But well, you need to live somehow, you know, if you need to spend some fiat

519
00:36:19,084 --> 00:36:23,264
and what, what is the way of spending fiat without selling your Bitcoin?

520
00:36:23,264 --> 00:36:25,804
Obviously, borrowing gets your Bitcoin because again, Bitcoin

521
00:36:25,904 --> 00:36:28,024
is like super collateral.

522
00:36:28,044 --> 00:36:34,454
It's the best collateral out there and, um, and it's, it's just going to go up in

523
00:36:34,454 --> 00:36:36,679
value and it's going to be more and more.

524
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,239
More and more, it's going to become more and more valuable, not only in

525
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:45,299
terms of price, but also in terms of, you know, underlying assets

526
00:36:45,519 --> 00:36:50,308
for multiple financial activities that are happening in the space.

527
00:36:50,353 --> 00:36:56,148
This is interesting because, uh, like, In, uh, in a fully hyperized world,

528
00:36:56,148 --> 00:37:01,248
I see very little use for, uh, a financial sector to be a thing at all.

529
00:37:01,248 --> 00:37:01,638
Really?

530
00:37:01,698 --> 00:37:06,358
When, when a company can just be a, a, a couple of people on pick

531
00:37:06,358 --> 00:37:08,488
your social platform, you know?

532
00:37:08,908 --> 00:37:14,068
Uh, so, so, so do you see this, uh, deify and similar things are Bitcoin

533
00:37:14,068 --> 00:37:19,408
as collateral, as a bridge between the fiat world and, uh, the hyperized world.

534
00:37:19,528 --> 00:37:21,599
Uh, what part does that play in the.

535
00:37:24,808 --> 00:37:29,588
hyperbitcoinization, and that's my like, uh That's my strong opinion without,

536
00:37:29,658 --> 00:37:35,368
uh, having most of traditional financial institution being on Bitcoin standard, you

537
00:37:35,368 --> 00:37:41,268
know, you cannot, uh, because eventually what we want to achieve, we want to Uh,

538
00:37:41,278 --> 00:37:45,768
we don't want to have banks, obviously, but, uh, you know, let's, let's, let's,

539
00:37:46,288 --> 00:37:49,878
let's be logical, there will be banks, they will just become an infrastructure

540
00:37:50,138 --> 00:37:54,048
provider, you know, they're not going to be, they might not have a power that

541
00:37:54,048 --> 00:37:58,828
they have at the moment, in a bright Bitcoin future, but they will just,

542
00:37:58,888 --> 00:38:00,648
they will still provide infrastructure.

543
00:38:01,498 --> 00:38:04,548
For FinTech companies, for individuals, whatever.

544
00:38:04,558 --> 00:38:09,288
So eventually our idea with Edify is that we want to make it happen.

545
00:38:09,738 --> 00:38:14,738
We want to make it true that whatever you are based in the world, you can

546
00:38:14,738 --> 00:38:18,578
go to your bank or you can speak to your bank and you can say, okay,

547
00:38:18,578 --> 00:38:21,898
I have Bitcoin as a collateral and I want to borrow against that.

548
00:38:21,988 --> 00:38:24,798
I want to buy a real estate or I want to pay for.

549
00:38:25,268 --> 00:38:29,518
Whatever I want to pay, will you provide me a loan?

550
00:38:29,518 --> 00:38:32,568
And bank will say, yes, of course we can provide you a loan.

551
00:38:32,628 --> 00:38:34,218
It's not going to be reopticated.

552
00:38:34,218 --> 00:38:35,968
It's going to be a collaborative custody.

553
00:38:35,968 --> 00:38:40,528
It's going to be like secured and you will be sleeping well because

554
00:38:40,528 --> 00:38:45,058
you will know that, uh, the only reason, uh, why we can take off.

555
00:38:45,523 --> 00:38:48,673
Take that collateral is if you will not repay your loan, which

556
00:38:48,683 --> 00:38:50,123
is, which is pretty much logical.

557
00:38:50,143 --> 00:38:53,903
That's how the economical incentives work, you know, in a society.

558
00:38:54,626 --> 00:38:56,356
It's how loans are supposed to

559
00:38:56,571 --> 00:38:57,541
yeah, yeah.

560
00:38:57,581 --> 00:39:01,371
And eventually, how do you hook up the banks on the Bitcoin

561
00:39:01,601 --> 00:39:04,261
standard, uh, through the lending?

562
00:39:04,271 --> 00:39:08,501
Because lending is the initial use case of the banking system.

563
00:39:09,121 --> 00:39:15,041
They started back in 14th century because of the, the modern banking system was

564
00:39:15,151 --> 00:39:21,521
started in 14th century in Italy, because, because of the lending activities, they

565
00:39:21,531 --> 00:39:29,351
had to lend money to, uh, to those, uh, you know, to, to the, to the businessmen,

566
00:39:29,361 --> 00:39:34,481
local, like that age businessmen to go abroad to buy some goods to be

567
00:39:34,481 --> 00:39:36,111
back, you know, to sell those goods.

568
00:39:36,111 --> 00:39:38,661
But it was mostly about lending.

569
00:39:39,616 --> 00:39:41,606
And how do you hook up the banks?

570
00:39:41,836 --> 00:39:46,976
You do the lending, because in case of Bitcoin as a collateral, banks are pretty

571
00:39:46,976 --> 00:39:52,176
much on the safe side, because Bitcoin is extremely liquid asset, extremely liquid

572
00:39:52,286 --> 00:39:58,286
collateral, and if your borrower fails to repay the loan on Sunday, You don't need

573
00:39:58,326 --> 00:40:03,116
to wait until Monday, or if the collateral is real estate, you don't need to wait

574
00:40:03,146 --> 00:40:05,366
for like years and years to sell it off.

575
00:40:06,516 --> 00:40:09,836
With Bitcoin, you can just take that collateral and liquidate it

576
00:40:09,896 --> 00:40:13,966
almost instantly, because markets are working 24 7, you know?

577
00:40:14,336 --> 00:40:19,606
And our initial idea is that we believe that reaching hyperbitcoinization can be

578
00:40:19,606 --> 00:40:25,776
only achieved if we will All the trade fi companies, trade fi institutions,

579
00:40:25,796 --> 00:40:28,296
banks, and on the Bitcoin standard.

580
00:40:28,736 --> 00:40:32,466
And with lending, what we can achieve as well is that we can put them on

581
00:40:32,466 --> 00:40:34,226
a non custodial Bitcoin standard.

582
00:40:34,906 --> 00:40:40,721
Because trading is mostly, if we talk about trading, then In most use cases,

583
00:40:40,721 --> 00:40:44,691
you know, trading is still done custodial because traders, they require high

584
00:40:44,691 --> 00:40:48,361
frequency trading, speed of execution, you know, they, they, they require this.

585
00:40:49,141 --> 00:40:53,481
Unfortunately, at the moment, it's, it's almost unachievable with, with

586
00:40:53,491 --> 00:40:57,091
the Bitcoin on chain, you know, it's very, it's pretty much slow for trading.

587
00:40:57,261 --> 00:40:59,221
But with lending, it's a different story.

588
00:40:59,351 --> 00:41:04,016
So with lending, Uh, number one thing that you require is the security

589
00:41:04,436 --> 00:41:08,266
and transparency, and that's, it's fully achievable with Bitcoin.

590
00:41:08,436 --> 00:41:14,176
And number two thing, two thing that you require is, uh, liquidity of the asset.

591
00:41:14,176 --> 00:41:15,846
And Bitcoin is an underlying asset.

592
00:41:16,761 --> 00:41:18,741
I think it's the most liquid asset in the world.

593
00:41:19,468 --> 00:41:23,558
yeah, back to the 14th century, I mean, the first banker is just

594
00:41:23,558 --> 00:41:27,198
a guy holding other people's gold in his basement, right?

595
00:41:27,708 --> 00:41:29,738
And the problems with banking.

596
00:41:30,268 --> 00:41:33,768
The problems with banking start when that guy figures out that he can give

597
00:41:33,768 --> 00:41:38,218
out more receipts for gold than he actually has gold in his vaults, which

598
00:41:38,218 --> 00:41:43,278
is not possible with Bitcoin and DebitFi because everyone can verify everything.

599
00:41:43,693 --> 00:41:49,193
Yes, but it's also, once again, it was, I think it started, uh, it started in Italy

600
00:41:49,203 --> 00:41:54,033
and the, and the use case, the main, the primary use case was that those, uh, you

601
00:41:54,033 --> 00:42:01,503
know, people from Venice or Florence, they, they traveled across the, like, to

602
00:42:01,503 --> 00:42:03,673
different countries, to remote countries.

603
00:42:04,343 --> 00:42:08,953
And they need to have, like, budget or cash flow for buying goods

604
00:42:09,023 --> 00:42:10,363
there and bringing them back.

605
00:42:10,393 --> 00:42:12,053
And for that, they use a lending.

606
00:42:12,293 --> 00:42:14,493
You know, they use a I

607
00:42:14,668 --> 00:42:16,398
nothing wrong with lending money.

608
00:42:16,398 --> 00:42:18,278
It's perfectly fine.

609
00:42:18,308 --> 00:42:23,188
It's just that it's the, the, the, The pricing of loans is completely

610
00:42:23,188 --> 00:42:27,598
fucked since we have banks, and more importantly, central banks, which

611
00:42:28,098 --> 00:42:31,938
essentially stop the banks from failing when they should, whenever there's a

612
00:42:31,948 --> 00:42:35,708
bank run, there shouldn't be a bigger bank bailing out the smaller one.

613
00:42:36,118 --> 00:42:38,398
That's where all the problems with fiat start, right?

614
00:42:38,858 --> 00:42:44,838
So, uh, So yeah, I see this as a bridge, just as all energy companies in the future

615
00:42:44,838 --> 00:42:49,748
will also be Bitcoin mining companies, I think all banks will sooner or later

616
00:42:50,268 --> 00:42:55,758
have to be, or have to start competing with stuff like DeFi, just ahead of

617
00:42:55,758 --> 00:42:57,658
the curve, I guess, uh, with DeFi.

618
00:42:57,813 --> 00:43:00,443
think, uh, well, we're not competing with them.

619
00:43:00,443 --> 00:43:02,893
We're actually providing them with infrastructure.

620
00:43:02,893 --> 00:43:05,983
So we're kind of providing them with a complementary feature.

621
00:43:05,983 --> 00:43:08,633
They don't need to build a multisig solution for themselves.

622
00:43:08,653 --> 00:43:09,833
They can just plug and play.

623
00:43:09,833 --> 00:43:13,283
They can onboard to DebiFi and they can start offloading liquidity.

624
00:43:13,783 --> 00:43:15,243
Using Bitcoin as a collateral.

625
00:43:15,253 --> 00:43:19,073
And another thing, important thing, why we discussed Switzerland before,

626
00:43:19,083 --> 00:43:22,763
but in Switzerland, actually, there's already a lot of banks where you

627
00:43:22,763 --> 00:43:28,803
can hold, in a bank, you can hold fiat and Bitcoin, for example.

628
00:43:29,158 --> 00:43:32,608
Or there are banks that allows you to borrow against your Bitcoin.

629
00:43:32,768 --> 00:43:35,598
The banks, you know, I mean, think about it.

630
00:43:36,188 --> 00:43:39,958
And, um, I think it's just the next step.

631
00:43:40,508 --> 00:43:44,818
And, uh, as we want to provide them with the proper

632
00:43:44,818 --> 00:43:46,778
infrastructure, with the multisigs.

633
00:43:47,963 --> 00:43:51,773
So they don't need to build, uh, the multistakes by themselves, and

634
00:43:51,773 --> 00:43:55,273
they can do the things that they are good at, meaning providing the

635
00:43:55,273 --> 00:43:59,773
liquidity, you know, and care about, you know, managing these loans.

636
00:44:00,373 --> 00:44:03,883
We'll provide them with all the necessary tools, and they can do that easily.

637
00:44:04,891 --> 00:44:10,876
So, to What, what kind of, uh, is Debify only for institutions or,

638
00:44:10,876 --> 00:44:14,936
or like, uh, individual plebs or like, how does, how does this work?

639
00:44:14,936 --> 00:44:16,676
What's sort of the, the, the target here?

640
00:44:17,271 --> 00:44:21,111
So the lenders are only institutions, so lenders are only institutions,

641
00:44:21,121 --> 00:44:22,611
but borrowers can be anyone.

642
00:44:22,751 --> 00:44:28,141
It could be a company, uh, we, we've actually, that's, that's not

643
00:44:28,141 --> 00:44:32,151
a big secret, but one of our first customers was a Bitcoin place,

644
00:44:32,231 --> 00:44:33,681
a Bitcoin school from Madeira.

645
00:44:34,741 --> 00:44:39,081
So we help them to, to borrow against one of the lenders in our platform,

646
00:44:39,091 --> 00:44:40,641
which is, which I'm very proud of.

647
00:44:41,741 --> 00:44:47,911
Uh, so it could be a company or it could be a private individual, a plat, uh, so

648
00:44:47,911 --> 00:44:53,101
you can go online and, uh, of course, you need to understand that, uh, most

649
00:44:53,101 --> 00:44:59,241
probably, uh, it will be required for you to go through KYC with the lender because

650
00:44:59,241 --> 00:45:01,401
again, they, they, they have rules.

651
00:45:02,231 --> 00:45:02,711
Right.

652
00:45:02,911 --> 00:45:08,711
Um, but, uh, yeah, then again, uh, you'll, you'll have an opportunity

653
00:45:08,711 --> 00:45:10,081
not to sell your Bitcoin.

654
00:45:10,321 --> 00:45:10,701
Right.

655
00:45:11,321 --> 00:45:15,021
And, uh, yeah, it's always a trade off.

656
00:45:15,101 --> 00:45:19,311
Always do your own research, as I say, and everyone says in space, actually.

657
00:45:19,321 --> 00:45:22,841
But, uh, yeah, it can be used by private individuals as well.

658
00:45:23,671 --> 00:45:29,741
So, so just, I guess, um, a part of, because there have been other, uh, kind of

659
00:45:29,751 --> 00:45:32,531
people in the space that have done this, companies in the space that have done

660
00:45:32,531 --> 00:45:37,681
this sort of lending thing, but what's the, what's the, I guess the rationale

661
00:45:37,901 --> 00:45:44,296
of Lending versus selling because I guess the idea is, uh, maybe this is, this is

662
00:45:44,546 --> 00:45:46,516
kind of a harder idea to think about.

663
00:45:46,516 --> 00:45:51,676
But if you, if you sell Bitcoin at a certain amount, uh, most places you

664
00:45:51,676 --> 00:45:59,126
have to pay taxes as long as you go through the, uh, the full system, right?

665
00:45:59,206 --> 00:46:02,606
But then, but then there's nothing to pay back and there's no, there's

666
00:46:02,606 --> 00:46:08,371
no price action that could, uh, Be because a massive, a massive drop

667
00:46:08,371 --> 00:46:12,151
and someone getting liquidated is, is what you hear about from, I mean the

668
00:46:12,151 --> 00:46:14,671
Celsius and Nexos of the, the world

669
00:46:15,301 --> 00:46:15,571
Right.

670
00:46:15,571 --> 00:46:19,771
And so what it seems like there's, there's risk no matter what you

671
00:46:19,776 --> 00:46:24,511
do, you either, you either lose some of the the fiat gains risk.

672
00:46:24,541 --> 00:46:24,721
Yeah.

673
00:46:24,931 --> 00:46:30,541
The issue with Celsius and all others are that they're custodial, first of

674
00:46:30,541 --> 00:46:32,561
all, so meaning you don't hold your keys.

675
00:46:32,811 --> 00:46:35,461
These are not your bitcoins anymore, so that's it.

676
00:46:35,751 --> 00:46:42,811
Which actually was proven by BlockFi, Celsius, FTX, you know, the custody issue.

677
00:46:43,241 --> 00:46:45,251
So DebitFi is non custodial.

678
00:46:45,996 --> 00:46:50,636
Meaning that, uh, even if we go down for whatever reason, we still, you can

679
00:46:50,636 --> 00:46:57,016
still access your collateral, uh, you know, we, it is protected by, and you

680
00:46:57,016 --> 00:47:01,536
have the majority of the keys together with all the, all of those parties.

681
00:47:01,646 --> 00:47:05,111
And we have a piece of software, which we call doomsday software.

682
00:47:05,111 --> 00:47:10,736
DebitFi is down for whatever reason, you still have opportunity to unlock

683
00:47:10,736 --> 00:47:11,986
the collateral and to move it.

684
00:47:12,086 --> 00:47:14,996
You know, collateral doesn't go down with us because we're just.

685
00:47:15,606 --> 00:47:17,976
Like, frontend, with just interface for you to access.

686
00:47:19,516 --> 00:47:23,866
And, uh, I think that was the main, one of the main issues.

687
00:47:23,956 --> 00:47:27,106
And another issue was that, uh, yield generation.

688
00:47:27,176 --> 00:47:31,236
You know, people wanted to generate yield on top of your bitcoin, which is kind

689
00:47:31,236 --> 00:47:38,241
of like Well, it's retarded, you know, if, if you, if you like, if you want to

690
00:47:38,251 --> 00:47:43,251
risk your Bitcoin for 3%, 4%, 5%, I don't know, I don't know what, what, what is

691
00:47:43,251 --> 00:47:48,031
the sizable amount of interest you can get for your Bitcoin that it's, that

692
00:47:48,031 --> 00:47:50,321
are worth of the risk, honestly, for me.

693
00:47:50,541 --> 00:47:55,571
literally retarded because what you're doing is retarding your returns.

694
00:47:55,791 --> 00:47:56,081
Like

695
00:47:56,171 --> 00:47:57,691
Yeah, so, so basically.

696
00:47:58,261 --> 00:48:03,811
Bitcoin itself is a yield generation, a generational asset, you know,

697
00:48:03,861 --> 00:48:08,891
I mean, generating asset, yield generation asset, so, um, it already

698
00:48:08,891 --> 00:48:15,051
generates yield, if you see how fiat devaluates, if you see how everything

699
00:48:15,051 --> 00:48:16,451
becomes more and more expensive.

700
00:48:17,296 --> 00:48:22,066
Which is a like a direct source of fiat devaluation and money printing.

701
00:48:22,826 --> 00:48:28,216
So, um, again, I have the best advice, I think, uh, for how

702
00:48:28,216 --> 00:48:29,396
to generate yield with Bitcoin.

703
00:48:29,546 --> 00:48:33,836
You buy Bitcoin, you buy a hardware wallet, you put your Bitcoin in a

704
00:48:33,846 --> 00:48:37,826
hardware wallet, you forget about it for years, your yield is generated.

705
00:48:37,916 --> 00:48:41,526
You know, four or three years depends on which part of the cycle we are.

706
00:48:42,276 --> 00:48:46,256
So, um, I think, yeah, that people become greedy.

707
00:48:46,586 --> 00:48:51,666
People didn't think about the custody and, um, eventually that's what's,

708
00:48:52,026 --> 00:48:55,166
uh, that's what's different about DebitFi, you know, non custodial

709
00:48:55,206 --> 00:48:58,566
setup, made only for borrowing.

710
00:48:59,066 --> 00:49:03,586
Again, as you mentioned, in, in, in most of the countries, borrowing against

711
00:49:03,586 --> 00:49:05,666
your Bitcoin is a non taxable event.

712
00:49:06,521 --> 00:49:10,811
And, um, in case of the selling Bitcoin, there is one particular

713
00:49:10,851 --> 00:49:12,281
thing that you didn't mention.

714
00:49:12,291 --> 00:49:16,031
There is a certain, and I would say very high cost of opportunity.

715
00:49:16,611 --> 00:49:20,891
Because, imagine you sold your one Bitcoin at the price of 60, 000.

716
00:49:22,351 --> 00:49:26,461
Uh, or you, and again, there's no price action, nothing.

717
00:49:26,521 --> 00:49:30,661
Or you borrowed against your Bitcoin at the price of 60, 000.

718
00:49:31,561 --> 00:49:38,451
Uh, and then Bitcoin just goes up to 120, 000 and you still have that one Bitcoin.

719
00:49:39,051 --> 00:49:42,291
So, you know, it's different.

720
00:49:42,301 --> 00:49:43,741
Of course you need to pay an interest.

721
00:49:43,741 --> 00:49:48,611
Of course, with one Bitcoin, you won't be able to borrow all 60, 000

722
00:49:48,611 --> 00:49:50,631
because there's a certain LTV ratio.

723
00:49:50,631 --> 00:49:54,761
You probably will be able to borrow like 70 percent or 50 percent out of

724
00:49:54,761 --> 00:50:00,101
that, but still, you know, you keep the assets and if you repay the loan in one

725
00:50:00,111 --> 00:50:05,401
year or in two years, Or in three, four, five, you will get your Bitcoin back

726
00:50:05,521 --> 00:50:10,351
and the price of Bitcoin at that point of time will be with you, basically,

727
00:50:10,421 --> 00:50:14,441
you're not going to miss opportunity.

728
00:50:14,461 --> 00:50:19,883
So I think that, there's, there will be more and more companies, more and more

729
00:50:19,883 --> 00:50:22,663
individuals looking to the borrowing side.

730
00:50:22,703 --> 00:50:26,303
If, if the borrowing is done properly, if we're talking only

731
00:50:26,303 --> 00:50:30,293
about borrowing, because Bitcoin is only about borrowing against that.

732
00:50:30,778 --> 00:50:34,916
Your generation on top of Bitcoin is just, again, I mentioned this.

733
00:50:34,916 --> 00:50:38,006
I'm gonna, I'm gonna repeat myself, but it's just retarded, ma.

734
00:50:38,036 --> 00:50:41,536
Massively retarded, you know, in my opinion.

735
00:50:42,155 --> 00:50:42,365
Yeah.

736
00:50:42,365 --> 00:50:43,385
So I guess, I guess.

737
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:50,310
The, the thing here for the institutions, and I, I assume also for Deify somehow,

738
00:50:50,310 --> 00:50:56,970
is that, is that the borrowers get fiat for putting up Bitcoin and then

739
00:50:56,970 --> 00:50:59,850
it's up to them to pay back the fiat.

740
00:50:59,910 --> 00:51:03,710
Otherwise, eventually they'll get liquidated and the

741
00:51:03,710 --> 00:51:04,730
lender gets the collateral.

742
00:51:05,170 --> 00:51:08,470
So it's like, it, it's, it's a market, you know, it's a, it's your, like,

743
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:13,150
uh, it's economical relationship between you and a certain institution.

744
00:51:13,150 --> 00:51:13,660
Nothing.

745
00:51:13,665 --> 00:51:14,920
It's, it's just the same.

746
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:15,385
You have a.

747
00:51:16,110 --> 00:51:20,270
Contractual, uh, responsibilities in agreement, you need to repay that.

748
00:51:20,310 --> 00:51:23,660
If you don't repay, sorry, we're gonna liquidate you, right?

749
00:51:23,720 --> 00:51:27,730
If you repay, fine, you can take, uh, your Bitcoin back from collateral.

750
00:51:27,790 --> 00:51:28,580
It works.

751
00:51:29,370 --> 00:51:33,590
As it is, you know, you always have two sides of the equation, lender

752
00:51:33,590 --> 00:51:36,210
and borrower, and you always try to balance and protect both of them.

753
00:51:37,134 --> 00:51:42,174
Is and is, is the, the liquidation threshold set per loan or

754
00:51:42,174 --> 00:51:44,544
is that, is there kind of a standard amount or, or what?

755
00:51:44,994 --> 00:51:51,114
No, it's usually depends on LTV ratio is set per loan, so it depends on that.

756
00:51:51,324 --> 00:51:55,374
So basically, and also at which time you're taking the loan.

757
00:51:55,414 --> 00:52:00,064
So usually when you take the loan, we show you the price at which point

758
00:52:00,064 --> 00:52:01,804
your collateral will be liquidated.

759
00:52:01,874 --> 00:52:03,134
So you are aware.

760
00:52:04,104 --> 00:52:08,604
And also, we send, uh, we send you four notifications before

761
00:52:08,604 --> 00:52:09,884
we actually liquidate you.

762
00:52:10,834 --> 00:52:14,934
So, and you have, like, a variety of opportunities to avoid liquidation,

763
00:52:14,934 --> 00:52:18,064
you can add more to collateral, you can do the partial repayment,

764
00:52:18,064 --> 00:52:19,554
or you can do early repayment.

765
00:52:20,264 --> 00:52:23,374
So, but it's also about risk management, you know, you never,

766
00:52:23,434 --> 00:52:28,444
uh, if you can, uh, never borrow against your full stack, you know,

767
00:52:28,444 --> 00:52:29,964
always keep some Bitcoin out of that.

768
00:52:31,634 --> 00:52:36,204
even if eventually you will get less money, but you will have more flexibility

769
00:52:36,224 --> 00:52:40,324
in that sense that if the price of Bitcoin will go down, you will be able to add more

770
00:52:40,324 --> 00:52:42,014
to collateral and not lose your Bitcoin.

771
00:52:43,084 --> 00:52:48,024
You know, that's, that's again, that's, that's your own risk management,

772
00:52:48,124 --> 00:52:53,694
and, uh, there's a good, Saying that, you know, Bitcoin is like being your

773
00:52:53,694 --> 00:52:57,694
own bank, which is true, but nobody told you that being your own bank

774
00:52:57,864 --> 00:53:00,654
is easy, you know, it's very hard.

775
00:53:00,784 --> 00:53:06,314
As a former banker, I can tell you, running a bank is fucking complicated,

776
00:53:06,644 --> 00:53:11,134
you know, so you need to learn how to do self custody, how to do risk

777
00:53:11,204 --> 00:53:16,434
management, how to do research, R& D, you know, research and development,

778
00:53:16,704 --> 00:53:18,654
how to do this multiple things.

779
00:53:19,419 --> 00:53:25,639
But eventually, the price of that is your freedom, so think about it, you know.

780
00:53:26,629 --> 00:53:27,009
Yeah.

781
00:53:28,589 --> 00:53:31,989
I guess we shouldn't advise people to be their own dentist, Luke.

782
00:53:31,999 --> 00:53:32,499
Should we?

783
00:53:32,589 --> 00:53:36,269
Yeah, that's, that's probably the bad advice, you know, they're like,

784
00:53:36,889 --> 00:53:41,399
I'm not, I'm not going into medicine or nutrition or anything like that,

785
00:53:41,399 --> 00:53:43,569
because usually it's end up pretty bad.

786
00:53:44,359 --> 00:53:44,679
Yeah.

787
00:53:45,519 --> 00:53:51,349
So, so, uh, a question about like, um, uh, Michael Saylor and the

788
00:53:51,359 --> 00:53:56,349
micro strategies strategy of just borrowing as much as they possibly

789
00:53:56,349 --> 00:53:58,029
can and buying Bitcoin for it all.

790
00:53:58,569 --> 00:53:59,149
It was the.

791
00:53:59,599 --> 00:54:03,429
Uh, if I know my history right, and I think I do, it was the winning

792
00:54:03,429 --> 00:54:08,809
strategy for what was subsequently the richest man in Germany who did that

793
00:54:08,819 --> 00:54:10,869
during the fall of the Weimar Republic.

794
00:54:10,869 --> 00:54:14,559
He just borrowed against the falling, like, got rid of all his,

795
00:54:15,399 --> 00:54:19,209
uh, whatever that kind of, that iteration of the mark was called.

796
00:54:19,599 --> 00:54:21,069
But what do you say to that?

797
00:54:21,099 --> 00:54:25,029
Is that advisable for the common pleb to just acquire as much

798
00:54:25,049 --> 00:54:28,799
Bitcoin as you can, borrow as much as you can, What do you think?

799
00:54:29,266 --> 00:54:33,326
it's one of the strategies, you know, I think it's, it's, it's rational and I

800
00:54:33,386 --> 00:54:37,826
think, uh, well, you, everyone can be a sailor now, you know, when you have these

801
00:54:37,846 --> 00:54:43,286
tools, uh, it's not only about DebitFi, HODLHODL also has an opportunity to, to,

802
00:54:43,336 --> 00:54:48,216
to borrow against your Bitcoin, and if your end goal is, uh, buy more Bitcoin,

803
00:54:48,666 --> 00:54:53,026
you can just borrow stable coins, uh, which, for example, HODLHODL offers,

804
00:54:53,366 --> 00:54:56,976
but just for a small amount, you know, HODLHODL is more about micro lending.

805
00:54:57,756 --> 00:55:02,586
And Abify just allows you to borrow in larger quantities, you know, larger

806
00:55:02,596 --> 00:55:07,426
volumes, but also stablecoins, which could be way more simpler than borrowing fiat.

807
00:55:09,451 --> 00:55:14,271
um, I say, I'm not going to advise you on this, you know, everyone

808
00:55:14,271 --> 00:55:21,241
does, but everyone does, uh, how he thinks or she thinks, uh, is, uh,

809
00:55:21,671 --> 00:55:26,531
is, is, is more, uh, appropriate for, for the, for their use case.

810
00:55:26,581 --> 00:55:32,841
But while we saw that, that's kind of a winning strategy, uh, alongside with,

811
00:55:32,841 --> 00:55:36,691
you know, DCA and doing the regular buys.

812
00:55:37,566 --> 00:55:40,756
And, uh, I think it's only rational to research that.

813
00:55:41,561 --> 00:55:44,071
Uh, but, but then again, it's, it's a question.

814
00:55:44,081 --> 00:55:46,161
What's, what's the end game for you?

815
00:55:46,261 --> 00:55:53,311
Like, some people, like, they're happy just with the amount of Bitcoin

816
00:55:53,351 --> 00:55:56,291
that they have, and they don't want to risk, they don't want to borrow,

817
00:55:56,311 --> 00:55:58,521
they don't want to, like, trade, they don't want to do anything.

818
00:55:58,521 --> 00:56:01,521
They just want to hold it in cold storage, and it's fine, you know.

819
00:56:02,021 --> 00:56:06,331
Some people are more, uh, you know, maybe sophisticated, or

820
00:56:06,331 --> 00:56:08,351
maybe they're a bit more crazy.

821
00:56:08,801 --> 00:56:11,361
They borrow against their Bitcoin, they buy more Bitcoin.

822
00:56:12,381 --> 00:56:15,081
Then they borrow against that bitcoin, they buy more bitcoin.

823
00:56:15,381 --> 00:56:16,376
Like, they do that.

824
00:56:16,816 --> 00:56:21,956
There's like different types of people who do different things and,

825
00:56:21,956 --> 00:56:27,756
uh, of course we want to accommodate everyone, but eventually we have a lot

826
00:56:27,756 --> 00:56:31,506
of people in the space who will never use our services, and that's fine.

827
00:56:32,461 --> 00:56:36,761
So, what are the main differences between hodl hodl and similar

828
00:56:36,761 --> 00:56:38,891
things such as peach or bisque?

829
00:56:39,551 --> 00:56:42,531
Like, well, how does hodl hodl differ from that?

830
00:56:43,401 --> 00:56:47,741
Well, if we're talking about the variety of tools available on

831
00:56:47,811 --> 00:56:51,561
HODLHODL, HODLHODL is not only about buying and selling, it's also about

832
00:56:51,581 --> 00:56:55,821
borrowing and lending, so you can also borrow and lend on HODLHODL, right?

833
00:56:56,386 --> 00:57:02,246
Uh, these are the things that not, uh, doesn't exist in competing platforms.

834
00:57:03,286 --> 00:57:07,036
Another thing is that we are web based, meaning you don't need to download

835
00:57:07,036 --> 00:57:11,806
a certain software, you don't need to run it on your mobile, or you

836
00:57:11,836 --> 00:57:13,516
don't need to run it on your machine.

837
00:57:14,121 --> 00:57:19,121
You can just access the web based version and use it.

838
00:57:19,841 --> 00:57:23,251
Uh, I think ease of use is another thing.

839
00:57:24,091 --> 00:57:29,781
And we also use 2 out of 3 multisig, which is not used by BISC as far

840
00:57:29,781 --> 00:57:31,581
as I know, and not used by Peach.

841
00:57:32,451 --> 00:57:37,761
But, uh, like, these are all great platforms, complement each other,

842
00:57:37,771 --> 00:57:43,251
depends on the market where you are, depends on your needs, depends on,

843
00:57:43,291 --> 00:57:49,236
again, size that you want to obtain, You can use one or another or a third one.

844
00:57:50,316 --> 00:57:54,816
So I would say, they all differ, you know, like Beach is mobile

845
00:57:54,816 --> 00:57:58,156
only, Bisk is software only, Foddle Foddle is like web based.

846
00:57:58,496 --> 00:58:01,856
So that's, that's, these are distinguished, you know, you

847
00:58:01,856 --> 00:58:03,336
don't need to run anything.

848
00:58:03,956 --> 00:58:07,946
Uh, the technical setup is a bit different, again.

849
00:58:08,046 --> 00:58:15,176
Uh, you don't need, uh, we have 2 out of 3, Pitch has 2 out

850
00:58:15,176 --> 00:58:17,156
of 2, and BISC has 2 out of 2.

851
00:58:17,876 --> 00:58:21,676
Markets are a bit different, you know, some of the countries serve,

852
00:58:22,106 --> 00:58:26,176
serve by BISC, uh, some of the countries serve by HODL, HODL, some

853
00:58:26,176 --> 00:58:27,536
of the countries serve by Pitch.

854
00:58:28,196 --> 00:58:31,586
So there's, there's like a different, uh, different things, but overall,

855
00:58:31,646 --> 00:58:34,306
of course, it's about peer to peer, it's just different tools.

856
00:58:34,958 --> 00:58:35,258
Yeah.

857
00:58:35,258 --> 00:58:39,068
So peer to peer and as KYC free as it can be, I guess.

858
00:58:39,183 --> 00:58:42,793
Yeah, but we, we, uh, there's another difference, we don't enforce.

859
00:58:43,078 --> 00:58:45,758
Uh, having or not having KYC.

860
00:58:45,758 --> 00:58:51,178
We are very much for free market and we believe that market will decide.

861
00:58:52,038 --> 00:58:55,498
We have traders on the platform that do KYC.

862
00:58:57,098 --> 00:58:59,778
Large traders, you know, licensed traders.

863
00:59:00,508 --> 00:59:04,048
Uh, and that's completely their like, we just provide tools, we

864
00:59:04,048 --> 00:59:07,258
don't engage in these things, you know, we just provide tools.

865
00:59:07,328 --> 00:59:13,598
And if people are happy with, uh, giving their information, we're not gonna be

866
00:59:13,598 --> 00:59:18,498
a watchdog for that, you know, we're not gonna ban people who collecting

867
00:59:18,518 --> 00:59:21,658
KYC if they're supposed to do that.

868
00:59:21,898 --> 00:59:27,138
Like in some regions, I can tell you from, from experience, are actually

869
00:59:27,138 --> 00:59:30,188
collecting KYC, light KYC on other people.

870
00:59:30,208 --> 00:59:30,608
Why?

871
00:59:30,638 --> 00:59:34,633
Because There's a huge level of scam happening, and they need

872
00:59:34,633 --> 00:59:36,263
to protect themselves like that.

873
00:59:36,513 --> 00:59:40,153
It's not that they are enforced by the government to collect the data.

874
00:59:40,263 --> 00:59:46,383
It's just, you know, markets decided eventually, did the research, and

875
00:59:46,383 --> 00:59:50,703
decided that, you know, having certain level of data about your counterparty

876
00:59:50,743 --> 00:59:52,263
is the best thing out there.

877
00:59:52,903 --> 00:59:59,093
So, like, we, like HODL, HODL always was about free market,

878
00:59:59,303 --> 01:00:00,883
and let the free market decide.

879
01:00:01,313 --> 01:00:04,303
You know, we're not going to enforce certain level of rules.

880
01:00:04,813 --> 01:00:08,983
We might enforce some rules if we want, if we think that there's a threat

881
01:00:08,983 --> 01:00:10,833
for us, or we want to protect us.

882
01:00:10,893 --> 01:00:12,493
So, for example, we don't surf U.

883
01:00:12,493 --> 01:00:12,723
S.

884
01:00:12,723 --> 01:00:13,123
market.

885
01:00:13,873 --> 01:00:16,213
Because, obviously, there's a reason for that.

886
01:00:16,523 --> 01:00:17,293
What's the point?

887
01:00:17,503 --> 01:00:20,393
You know, we don't have any activity there.

888
01:00:23,213 --> 01:00:29,603
Uh, and we believe it's a huge risk for, uh, for pla peer-to-peer platforms,

889
01:00:29,843 --> 01:00:32,423
uh, to, to serve certain markets.

890
01:00:32,423 --> 01:00:33,323
We just don't do that.

891
01:00:33,533 --> 01:00:34,013
That's it.

892
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:35,070
yeah.

893
01:00:35,130 --> 01:00:40,040
And, uh, there, I mean, there's always a trade off and privacy is like,

894
01:00:40,050 --> 01:00:42,600
you can, it comes in layers, right?

895
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:48,300
And whenever you, whenever you receive money into your bank account, you have

896
01:00:48,540 --> 01:00:52,470
like, you have to give someone the information about your bank account.

897
01:00:52,830 --> 01:00:57,290
So, so the guy giving you, buying the Bitcoins from you,

898
01:00:57,750 --> 01:00:59,500
We'll know your bank account.

899
01:00:59,570 --> 01:01:03,180
And similarly, if you use Bitcoin and you haven't coin joined them

900
01:01:03,180 --> 01:01:08,120
or done anything privacy wise with them, people can see where they came

901
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:10,210
from and how much is left on that.

902
01:01:10,250 --> 01:01:12,860
So there's always, there's always something, right?

903
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:16,330
And it's up to each and every one of us to take care when doing these

904
01:01:16,330 --> 01:01:19,680
things and doing our own research and doing the things properly, right?

905
01:01:20,595 --> 01:01:25,295
But then again, there's no way out of totalitarianism other than

906
01:01:25,365 --> 01:01:29,755
using the tools that are available to get out of totalitarianism.

907
01:01:30,415 --> 01:01:31,355
There's no choice.

908
01:01:31,385 --> 01:01:35,955
It's, we need Do your, do your research, but do it well.

909
01:01:36,485 --> 01:01:36,695
Yeah.

910
01:01:36,695 --> 01:01:38,945
There, there's a lot of tools available online.

911
01:01:38,945 --> 01:01:44,285
You know, it's, uh, the, the thing that I don't understand,

912
01:01:44,285 --> 01:01:45,905
something doesn't work anymore.

913
01:01:46,025 --> 01:01:47,585
It's like 21st century.

914
01:01:47,795 --> 01:01:50,045
You can understand basically everything.

915
01:01:50,740 --> 01:01:55,210
You know, there's, there's a tons of information available online, uh,

916
01:01:55,220 --> 01:02:00,280
starting from, you know, like, uh, tutorials, guides, and this can be

917
01:02:00,350 --> 01:02:04,100
audio, this could be readable, this could be video, so you can learn.

918
01:02:04,620 --> 01:02:10,100
Almost everything, you know, especially learn almost everything about Bitcoin,

919
01:02:10,170 --> 01:02:15,790
you know, best practices out there, just free, available, free of charge,

920
01:02:15,790 --> 01:02:20,180
you know, you go, you learn, you spend a certain amount of time, of course,

921
01:02:20,650 --> 01:02:22,770
but eventually it always pays off.

922
01:02:22,890 --> 01:02:24,670
With Bitcoin, it always pays off.

923
01:02:25,185 --> 01:02:25,445
Yeah.

924
01:02:25,445 --> 01:02:28,745
And with, with that, I mean, there's a lot of misinformation.

925
01:02:28,745 --> 01:02:32,315
I think the, the, the problem people have is to navigate what's, what's

926
01:02:32,315 --> 01:02:36,975
misinformation and what's not, but there's an easy rule of thumb to follow.

927
01:02:37,395 --> 01:02:41,625
If it's Bitcoin only, it has a much, much, much, much, much greater

928
01:02:41,655 --> 01:02:43,395
likelihood of not being a scam.

929
01:02:44,445 --> 01:02:47,555
That's, that's just, if you follow that simple rule of

930
01:02:47,555 --> 01:02:49,605
thumb, you won't get fucked over.

931
01:02:50,150 --> 01:02:50,950
Most of the time.

932
01:02:51,110 --> 01:02:56,450
Like, so, if it has anything else, if it has any shitcoin attached to

933
01:02:56,450 --> 01:03:01,560
it, and if it's KYC'd, most of the time, like, avoid these things.

934
01:03:01,590 --> 01:03:03,560
Go Bitcoin only and go hardcore.

935
01:03:03,700 --> 01:03:05,400
That's, that's the thing.

936
01:03:05,780 --> 01:03:11,585
I mean, It's not at least Bitcoin first, uh, that's, yeah,

937
01:03:12,740 --> 01:03:16,150
That's, uh, it's good.

938
01:03:16,180 --> 01:03:16,440
Yeah.

939
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:19,630
I mean, elephant in the room is, is that Debify and HODLHODL

940
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:20,900
do support other things, right?

941
01:03:20,900 --> 01:03:21,780
But, but you guys are

942
01:03:21,890 --> 01:03:25,340
no, but, but, but as Max said, that's a free market, right?

943
01:03:25,380 --> 01:03:27,200
You should be given the choice,

944
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:27,920
Yeah, what do

945
01:03:27,950 --> 01:03:30,830
but I was, I was, I was not talking about the platforms, but

946
01:03:30,830 --> 01:03:32,530
about the education about the

947
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:33,030
No, no, no.

948
01:03:33,090 --> 01:03:35,470
I mean, uh, what, what we support.

949
01:03:35,490 --> 01:03:40,040
We support, you know, if you go on DeFi, you can borrow with fiat or you

950
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:43,950
can borrow with stablecoins, but we do provide only infrastructure for Bitcoin.

951
01:03:44,010 --> 01:03:46,030
So we are a Bitcoin only company in that sense.

952
01:03:46,710 --> 01:03:49,250
We're not building infrastructure for Ethereum, whatever.

953
01:03:49,725 --> 01:03:54,445
And, uh, what you can borrow against Bitcoin, uh, instead

954
01:03:54,445 --> 01:03:55,985
of fiat or stablecoins.

955
01:03:56,185 --> 01:03:58,925
Obviously, you won't borrow against Bitcoin, Bitcoin,

956
01:03:58,925 --> 01:04:01,345
because it's like useless, right?

957
01:04:01,605 --> 01:04:05,605
So, uh, it's, it's, it's still Bitcoin only, same way

958
01:04:05,605 --> 01:04:06,875
with Fuddle Fuddle, you know?

959
01:04:07,275 --> 01:04:10,125
Uh, the infrastructure is only about Bitcoin, you know?

960
01:04:10,135 --> 01:04:13,005
You can buy and sell Bitcoin, you can lend and borrow.

961
01:04:13,365 --> 01:04:15,765
And when you're buying and selling, of course, you can use

962
01:04:15,765 --> 01:04:17,825
different, uh, type of shit coins.

963
01:04:17,835 --> 01:04:21,395
You can use fiat, but it's just, uh, you know, it's, it's again,

964
01:04:21,395 --> 01:04:22,795
it's, it's a market out there.

965
01:04:22,795 --> 01:04:26,865
It's, it's there, you know, nobody exchanging, uh,

966
01:04:26,895 --> 01:04:30,245
Bitcoin against like Bitcoin.

967
01:04:30,245 --> 01:04:34,145
Obviously there are some use cases, you know, uh, we saw that people were

968
01:04:34,275 --> 01:04:39,100
like trading Bitcoin for Bitcoin on top of lightning on HODLHODL, which

969
01:04:39,110 --> 01:04:43,260
is a legit use case, of course, but still, you know, they're, they're way

970
01:04:43,260 --> 01:04:45,580
more convenient way how to do that.

971
01:04:45,610 --> 01:04:52,330
So, basically, peer to peer is made for, um, I would say peer to peer and

972
01:04:52,330 --> 01:04:57,100
the idea behind HODLHODL, specifically for HODLHODL was that we were building

973
01:04:57,100 --> 01:05:01,910
this stuff and that stuff was built specifically for emerging markets.

974
01:05:02,050 --> 01:05:06,510
You know, markets that doesn't have an infrastructure.

975
01:05:06,820 --> 01:05:14,360
doesn't have the privilege having Coinbase or Kraken or, uh, big exchanges

976
01:05:14,470 --> 01:05:18,950
where you can easily go and buy with, like, having, like, a couple of clicks.

977
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:22,740
And, uh, these are peer to peer markets.

978
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:26,600
Like, uh, so, so, yeah, why not?

979
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:34,075
Uh, You exchange fiat, fiat, uh, fiat, shitcoin, what's, what's basically the

980
01:05:34,185 --> 01:05:38,585
difference, you know, but there are use cases, you know, you cannot go to the

981
01:05:38,585 --> 01:05:44,965
grocery store, unfortunately, yet, uh, in most of the use cases and spend bitcoin,

982
01:05:45,295 --> 01:05:50,790
and in fact, I would say I'm kind of, I don't like the vibe of spending Bitcoin

983
01:05:50,790 --> 01:05:55,580
at all, you know, I don't understand why everyone is hyping around, you know, you

984
01:05:55,580 --> 01:06:01,540
can go, you can go and spend your Bitcoin with this and that, I'm kind of, okay,

985
01:06:01,540 --> 01:06:06,860
spending a little bit, you know, buying a coffee sometimes, it's fine, but just

986
01:06:07,060 --> 01:06:09,200
spending, I'm not a big fan of that.

987
01:06:09,490 --> 01:06:14,750
To be honest, and, uh, it's like, yeah, it gives you a wipe, obviously

988
01:06:14,750 --> 01:06:19,810
you support the, uh, the adoption and there's a lot of, uh, of course,

989
01:06:19,820 --> 01:06:24,500
great things, maybe I'm, I'm one and only like that, but, uh, some kind

990
01:06:24,500 --> 01:06:26,160
of don't like spending my bitcoin.

991
01:06:26,510 --> 01:06:28,090
Yeah,

992
01:06:28,170 --> 01:06:32,420
uh, we're, we're making the case in the book for store of value being, uh,

993
01:06:32,460 --> 01:06:38,750
uh, Um, uh, uh, misguided term, and that it's only a medium of exchange.

994
01:06:38,770 --> 01:06:43,620
It's just that it's a medium of exchange over time and space, and saving is

995
01:06:43,650 --> 01:06:45,400
just a medium of exchange over time.

996
01:06:45,740 --> 01:06:49,070
So what you're doing is you are trading Bitcoin, but with yourself.

997
01:06:51,370 --> 01:06:54,870
obviously we don't have anything to spend as well because we lost

998
01:06:54,870 --> 01:06:56,490
everything in voting accidents.

999
01:06:56,580 --> 01:06:59,870
So, you know, it's like, we're just, we're just theoretically,

1000
01:07:00,530 --> 01:07:02,380
uh, talking about that.

1001
01:07:03,025 --> 01:07:07,535
And now with Boeing, with Boeing, the Boeing thing going on, we all lost

1002
01:07:07,535 --> 01:07:11,905
them in a, in an airplane crash, right?

1003
01:07:12,450 --> 01:07:12,890
Sure.

1004
01:07:14,325 --> 01:07:14,785
Why not?

1005
01:07:15,175 --> 01:07:18,805
Max, it's been a great pleasure having you on the Freedom Footprint show.

1006
01:07:19,495 --> 01:07:21,425
I mean, go over to BalticHoneyBadger.

1007
01:07:22,645 --> 01:07:23,975
com is the address, I believe.

1008
01:07:24,565 --> 01:07:29,885
Uh, and get your tickets now, use the code FREEDOM for 10 percent off, go to

1009
01:07:29,885 --> 01:07:36,635
HodlHodl and, uh, do stuff, uh, go to Debify and do stuff, uh, and anywhere else

1010
01:07:36,655 --> 01:07:41,995
you'd like to, uh, uh, any other direction you would like to point our listeners in

1011
01:07:42,330 --> 01:07:48,780
Well, I think that, honestly, the best direction is like, just, you know, learn,

1012
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:51,780
learn about Bitcoin, orange pill yourself.

1013
01:07:52,030 --> 01:07:55,220
There's nobody who can orange pill you.

1014
01:07:55,875 --> 01:08:02,745
Uh, but anyway, like, learn new things, um, but still be very conservative with,

1015
01:08:02,895 --> 01:08:07,835
uh, with, with money because, you know, money is about, sometimes it's being

1016
01:08:07,845 --> 01:08:11,315
about conservative, and this, that's the case that I like about Bitcoin in

1017
01:08:11,315 --> 01:08:16,235
general, that it's very conservative, innovative, yet very conservative.

1018
01:08:16,895 --> 01:08:20,395
So, yeah, learn about Bitcoin, read books, come to Baltic

1019
01:08:20,395 --> 01:08:21,965
Honey Badger, educate yourself.

1020
01:08:21,995 --> 01:08:25,215
That's the best investment you can actually do in the Bitcoin space.

1021
01:08:25,215 --> 01:08:30,395
You know, being, you know, having, having a wide range of friends in

1022
01:08:30,395 --> 01:08:35,325
Bitcoin, meeting new people, going to the conference, reading the

1023
01:08:35,335 --> 01:08:41,335
books, you know, learning, and, uh, eventually you will get it.

1024
01:08:42,015 --> 01:08:42,915
If you didn't yet.

1025
01:08:43,641 --> 01:08:45,271
you get properly orange pilled.

1026
01:08:46,591 --> 01:08:47,541
Yeah, hopefully.

1027
01:08:48,351 --> 01:08:52,081
Yeah, looking forward to seeing you again, man, and it's just, it's

1028
01:08:52,101 --> 01:08:54,501
like less than two months left, so,

1029
01:08:54,661 --> 01:08:55,001
Yeah,

1030
01:08:55,741 --> 01:08:56,281
the best,

1031
01:08:56,821 --> 01:08:57,321
All the best.

1032
01:08:57,321 --> 01:08:58,411
Thank you very much, guys.

1033
01:08:58,441 --> 01:08:58,961
Bye bye.

1034
01:08:59,666 --> 01:09:00,466
Thanks a lot, Max.

1035
01:09:00,486 --> 01:09:02,056
This has been the Freedom Footprint Show.

1036
01:09:02,426 --> 01:09:02,826
Thanks for listening.