1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,160 One of my favorite examples, people are like, so why Bitcoin? 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:04,520 Like, why is Bitcoin powerful? 3 00:00:04,780 --> 00:00:06,280 How do we know it's going to be adopted? 4 00:00:06,560 --> 00:00:08,920 And, you know, I kind of I like analogies. 5 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:13,000 I like to bring people a little closer to past technology adoption. 6 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,920 And I describe to them like, look, Bitcoin is great at sending value anywhere across the world. 7 00:00:18,100 --> 00:00:19,180 There's no problems there. 8 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,820 The problem is, is no one has Bitcoin address. 9 00:00:23,060 --> 00:00:23,260 Right. 10 00:00:23,260 --> 00:00:29,440 and and if you were a lot of times when i talk to anyone who's not a zoomer you know they have seen 11 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:35,620 the the arc of email adoption it's like look in the 90s you could send email anywhere but it was 12 00:00:35,620 --> 00:00:40,520 so hard to send an email because no one had email address and that's where bitcoin is right now so 13 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:46,240 the bitcoin network work works but that that last mile of everyone having bitcoin address everyone 14 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:51,980 being able to accept bitcoin everyone having a bitcoin wallet we're not there yet but the arc of 15 00:00:51,980 --> 00:00:57,420 technology and the art of technological adoption says that we are going there. And that's incredibly 16 00:00:57,420 --> 00:01:03,060 optimistic for Bitcoin's utility to, you know, not just enthusiasts, but everyone and especially 17 00:01:03,060 --> 00:01:08,840 people who don't have the privilege of access to the existing digital payment rails. 18 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:18,120 Hey, one quick thing before we get into it. Trust Revolution runs on value for value. 19 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:25,420 No ads, no sponsors. Fountain is how it works for me and for the show. Pay per episode or subscribe, 20 00:01:26,140 --> 00:01:31,620 lightning or card. You get something from the show, you can send something back. No guilt, 21 00:01:32,060 --> 00:01:38,740 no gimmicks. Go to trustrevolution.co. That's trustrevolution.co. Okay, let's get into it. 22 00:01:39,020 --> 00:01:40,480 C.K., how are you, sir? 23 00:01:41,380 --> 00:01:43,400 Doing great. Excited to be here. 24 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:51,500 Yeah, appreciate you doing it. And catching you in a moment where you're not on a plane, I think, is fairly rare. 25 00:01:51,980 --> 00:01:52,680 Very thankful. 26 00:01:53,180 --> 00:02:07,460 Hey, thanks for doing this, man. I feel like I'm overdue in asking you for the privilege and us getting together because this brings so much of what I've been covering over the last eight months together. 27 00:02:07,460 --> 00:02:17,240 And so let's dive in. You went from building Bitcoin conferences and media to working at an organization founded to fight dictators. 28 00:02:17,580 --> 00:02:21,520 That's not even within Bitcoin. Maybe that's not an obvious career move. 29 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:29,240 What made sort of HRF the right fit? And, you know, what does it say about Bitcoin that they wanted you to take on this role? 30 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:38,520 Yeah, so I think anyone who is in the Bitcoin space has a pretty good name recognition of HRF. 31 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:55,460 And I think that is a testament to how effective Alex Gladstein and HRF have been in terms of not just being present and effective in the Bitcoin space, but really leading and setting the narratives. 32 00:02:55,460 --> 00:03:02,700 And I actually started building a working relationship with Alex when I was at Bitcoin Magazine. 33 00:03:03,300 --> 00:03:07,100 We were both in the Bay Area during the pandemic and before then. 34 00:03:07,660 --> 00:03:14,340 And, you know, he was throwing a bunch of kind of like Bitcoin gatherings and parties prior to 2020. 35 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,540 And that's how we kind of got on each other's radars. 36 00:03:18,540 --> 00:03:34,940 And then during 2020, he was telling me about an idea of kind of like starting to tell stories of activists and people living in difficult situations and how they're using Bitcoin or how Bitcoin helps them. 37 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:41,940 And that later became the foundation of his book, Check Your Financial Privilege. 38 00:03:41,940 --> 00:03:47,260 So, I convinced him to publish those ideas on Bitcoin Magazine. 39 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:52,540 And then, when he wanted to turn them into a book, started Bitcoin Magazine Publishing. 40 00:03:53,120 --> 00:04:00,800 So, that way, you know, his book and Alan Varrington's book, Bitcoin is Venice, could be the first books that we published. 41 00:04:01,860 --> 00:04:05,120 And from there, it turned into another book. 42 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,980 and getting him on stage with Jack Dorsey at Bitcoin 21. 43 00:04:09,460 --> 00:04:13,880 And several keynotes later, you know, we had just built a very strong relationship. 44 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,680 And I was ready for me to leave Bitcoin Magazine and do something else. 45 00:04:17,900 --> 00:04:23,160 I started putting out feelers and Gladstein put me on the phone with their COO and CEO 46 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:24,760 and got me an offer pretty quickly. 47 00:04:26,060 --> 00:04:30,160 It was just kind of just all the right pieces falling together. 48 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,980 But I was very interested in HRF. 49 00:04:32,980 --> 00:04:35,560 There's a reason why I pinged Gladstein when I was ready to move on. 50 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,600 I just saw what they're doing on the Bitcoin Development Fund. 51 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,640 I saw the narratives that Gladstein was putting forward. 52 00:04:41,740 --> 00:04:46,840 And I thought, this is the most ironclad work, the most ironclad narratives around Bitcoin. 53 00:04:47,100 --> 00:04:51,100 And I think I can help spread these narratives faster. 54 00:04:52,420 --> 00:04:54,320 Ultimately, I'm like an ops guy. 55 00:04:54,540 --> 00:04:56,020 I like to build businesses. 56 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:58,240 I like to build organizations. 57 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:02,040 I like to onboard great people, make them successful. 58 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:08,020 so uh i've been able to do that bitcoin magazine the bitcoin conference and you know that i left 59 00:05:08,020 --> 00:05:13,040 that organization two years ago and i still see a lot of people that i enabled you know being uh 60 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:19,800 the front runners driving that organization forward so i'm very proud of that and yeah now 61 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:25,200 just trying to do the same thing at hrf you know i can see it working uh you know since i've joined 62 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:29,760 We've published 100 and soon to be 101 financial freedom reports. 63 00:05:30,380 --> 00:05:33,940 We've given millions in Bitcoin development grants. 64 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:47,680 We have helped developers and activists come together to build products that are actually in the wild and being used and supporting people who are fighting for freedom. 65 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:56,660 and you know we continue to be on the front lines of pushing for the appropriate narrative around 66 00:05:56,660 --> 00:06:02,820 Bitcoin which is that Bitcoin is freedom enabling technology. Bitcoin is bad for dictators and 67 00:06:02,820 --> 00:06:11,920 Bitcoin aligns with western liberal values and you know I think that we're on the forefront and 68 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:17,060 if we weren't doing it I don't know who else would be at this stage so I'm very thankful that HRF is 69 00:06:17,060 --> 00:06:22,440 here and feel blessed to get the privilege to push forward on this mission. 70 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,180 Yeah, fantastic, as I think we all are very grateful. 71 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:34,140 Understanding that HRF is sizable and has sort of many initiatives and programs, I believe 72 00:06:34,140 --> 00:06:38,480 now chaired by Yulia Navalny, which I probably won't do justice to. 73 00:06:39,260 --> 00:06:40,280 Yulia Navalny. 74 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:41,960 Navalny, excuse me. 75 00:06:42,140 --> 00:06:42,880 Or Navalny. 76 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:48,000 Yeah, I think like they have different ways of pronouncing words in Russian. 77 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:53,640 So my six months of Russian that I took in that I took in university is showing. 78 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,320 So my point there is, you know, she's got a lot to cover. 79 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,500 The organization HRF has a lot to cover. 80 00:07:00,260 --> 00:07:08,420 Correct me, but I assume there are still conversations in which you are continuing to sort of expand her knowledge as to why Bitcoin matters. 81 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:09,740 What do you lead with? 82 00:07:09,740 --> 00:07:19,820 What are those conversations like when, you know, perhaps you're advocating for, you know, Bitcoin becoming more of what HRF leads with? 83 00:07:20,900 --> 00:07:33,400 Yeah, I mean, Yulia, she chairs our board and she definitely is an incredible person to have the privilege or us have the privilege of, you know, being involved with our organization. 84 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:46,760 She carries on her husband, Alexei Navalny's work in terms of opposing Russian dictatorship, as well as now she supports the Human Rights Foundation as our chairwoman. 85 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:56,220 In terms of like the day to day and the operational practices of continuing to integrate Bitcoin and now freedom technology more into what Ahrefs is doing. 86 00:07:56,220 --> 00:08:19,880 You know, I think that we started by leading by example with the financial freedom program in terms of building this kind of cornerstone program that, you know, is pushing and pushing financial freedom, pushing Bitcoin, pushing freedom, enabling technologies forward and, you know, bringing in a lot of success to the organization. 87 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:26,800 and you know that that kind of production and that kind of success is undeniable and now we're 88 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:32,620 seeing other parts of the organization being like how can we enable this too how can we bring some 89 00:08:32,620 --> 00:08:37,360 of this energy into what we're doing and you know we're seeing that across the board whether that is 90 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:43,460 our Africa program whether that is our program in North Korea supporting South Korea and people 91 00:08:43,460 --> 00:08:49,480 living in South Korea in the opposition of North Korea, whether that is giving activist 92 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,060 tools across the world. 93 00:08:51,540 --> 00:08:58,060 You know, it's kind of a combination of orange pilling internally, as well as actually orange 94 00:08:58,060 --> 00:08:58,940 pilling our community. 95 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:04,280 The beautiful thing about the Human Rights Foundation is outside of our Bitcoin community, 96 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:09,240 the people in the Bitcoin space that are freedom fighters and activists that are kind of attracted 97 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:09,820 to us. 98 00:09:09,820 --> 00:09:22,160 We have a strong contingent of just freedom fighters from different backgrounds from across the world. And a big part of that and of our success has been actually showing them how Bitcoin can change their lives. 99 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:34,320 And then in turn, you know, as my colleagues who are working on freedom in Nicaragua and working on this project or that project are seeing, you know, fill in your blank favorite activists getting into Bitcoin. 100 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:41,680 That also helps that this kind of virtuous cycle of bringing Bitcoin deeper into what HRF does across the board. 101 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,200 Has working at HRF changed how you think about Bitcoin? 102 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:51,140 I don't know if it's changed how I think about Bitcoin. 103 00:09:51,140 --> 00:09:56,000 I definitely think it has changed how I think about narratives in Bitcoin. 104 00:09:57,500 --> 00:10:03,000 And, you know, for a long time, there's this idea of like a single issue voter around only Bitcoin. 105 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:10,640 And I think that that has, while that is extremely important, fix the money, fix the world, I fully believe in that. 106 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:16,200 I do feel like Ahrefs has showed me that the world is a lot more nuanced than that. 107 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:27,200 And if we are going to fix the money, if we are going to bring about ubiquitous Bitcoin adoption, it's going to take a very nuanced and pragmatic approach. 108 00:10:27,500 --> 00:10:30,180 And I think that's where Ahrefs really shines. 109 00:10:30,180 --> 00:10:47,100 And that's where I've become a little bit annoyed by my fellow Bitcoin enthusiasts who I think actually, you know, delay people being attracted to Bitcoin because of, I guess, certain worldviews. 110 00:10:47,100 --> 00:10:51,060 But overall, I'm pretty convinced that everything is good for Bitcoin. 111 00:10:51,260 --> 00:11:00,240 So it's better for me to start from that conclusion and rationalize the other way than, you know, be upset about the progress of adoption. 112 00:11:01,420 --> 00:11:05,620 You are by far, my friend, one of the most bullish people I know, and I appreciate it. 113 00:11:06,620 --> 00:11:16,320 So HRF's big project under your leadership, I think certainly one of the biggest, is the CBDC tracker, monitoring governments building their own digital currencies. 114 00:11:17,100 --> 00:11:22,080 One thing I wanted to tackle, it seems like the data may be showing something counterintuitive. 115 00:11:23,260 --> 00:11:26,420 Nigeria launched, I believe, their CBDC in 2021. 116 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,080 China's been piloting for years. 117 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,560 Both have struggled with adoption despite government pressure. 118 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:43,100 And so the question is, if CBDCs are such attractive tools of control, why are regimes struggling to get people to use them even when mandated? 119 00:11:43,340 --> 00:11:44,380 What does that tell us? 120 00:11:44,380 --> 00:11:54,700 yeah i mean countries are not good at tech adoption actually i would say like the closest 121 00:11:54,700 --> 00:12:02,840 example of cbdc-esque adoption is like the brazilian pick system and it's while that is not 122 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:10,500 a true cbdc it's more like mobile money um it is a government program that has mass adoption 123 00:12:10,500 --> 00:12:18,080 But beyond that, governments suck at, especially authoritarian governments, suck at tech adoption. 124 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:23,740 They suck at pushing forward consumer tech in particular. 125 00:12:24,860 --> 00:12:39,540 And my point of view on the CBDC thing, trend, is that it's probably very similar to when there was kind of like a internet forming, a very nascent internet forming. 126 00:12:39,540 --> 00:12:43,540 And yet every company in every government wanted to create an intranet. 127 00:12:44,260 --> 00:12:44,760 Right. 128 00:12:44,900 --> 00:12:45,140 Right. 129 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:51,620 And I think that crypto enterprise blockchain CBDCs is part of this. 130 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:53,920 We don't want the Internet of money. 131 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:56,940 We want our intranet of money. 132 00:12:56,940 --> 00:13:11,740 And another trend that we are highlighting or we have found in our work doing and compiling all the information into the CBDC tracker is that by far dictatorships are the most interested in CBDCs. 133 00:13:11,740 --> 00:13:22,620 We see CBDC excitement across central banks, but the ones that are the most interested, the ones who want to push it forward and have the incentive to push it forward the most are actually dictatorships. 134 00:13:22,740 --> 00:13:50,499 And their incentives are because of capital flight because of trying to control their population and also as a scheme to collect more data from unbanked and unregistered people So there are a lot of incentives why dictatorships and kind of like shabby governments are really excited about this technology And those are the very reasons why I 135 00:13:50,499 --> 00:13:55,219 think people who love freedom should be skeptical about central bank digital currencies. And then 136 00:13:55,219 --> 00:14:01,339 from a product and a technology perspective, I'm just bearish on intranet in a world where there 137 00:14:01,339 --> 00:14:07,259 is an internet of money. Well, that is an interesting seg, given how you frame that to 138 00:14:07,259 --> 00:14:13,639 the fact that the EU and UK, I believe, or well, certainly the EU has clearly stated their goals. 139 00:14:13,759 --> 00:14:20,159 I think the UK is fairly down, far down the road, you know, researching and piloting CBDCs with, 140 00:14:20,159 --> 00:14:24,259 of course, the stated goals of efficiency and inclusion and all these things. 141 00:14:25,079 --> 00:14:27,659 And so the question here is... Privacy, but not enough privacy. 142 00:14:28,239 --> 00:14:30,799 Yeah. Not too much. Right, right. 143 00:14:31,339 --> 00:14:34,779 You know, you can say anything you want as long as we agree with you. 144 00:14:35,019 --> 00:14:44,539 And so are democratic governments naive about what they're building or do they just want the same capabilities as dictators and aren't prepared to say so? 145 00:14:44,599 --> 00:14:46,899 Like what should we make of the EU digital euro? 146 00:14:48,179 --> 00:14:48,939 Yeah, this is tough. 147 00:14:48,939 --> 00:15:12,039 I think that the liberal world, the progressive world, has some sort of cognitive dissonance around the role of government, the role of government-based technologies, and then their place in the world. 148 00:15:12,039 --> 00:15:24,719 And I think that this is not controversial. It's generally accepted that the world in general is sliding into more and more totalitarian tendencies. 149 00:15:24,719 --> 00:15:48,139 And I don't think that democracies are free of those tendencies. And I think bureaucracies in general tend to go in that direction. And that is because of political expedience. And that is because of a world where people want to protect using the long reach, the arm of the government. 150 00:15:48,139 --> 00:16:03,019 And it's a little bit misdirected because the reality is that if you truly believe in liberty, if you believe in the utility of freedom, like I don't think like freedom is a virtue in of itself. 151 00:16:03,179 --> 00:16:09,199 It actually is a virtue because freedom is how you create prosperity. 152 00:16:09,759 --> 00:16:11,839 Freedom is how you create wealth. 153 00:16:11,839 --> 00:16:16,739 Freedom is how you increase people's lifestyles and people's quality of life. 154 00:16:16,739 --> 00:16:20,379 And control is how you reduce that. 155 00:16:21,159 --> 00:16:25,499 Control is how you break that flywheel of human innovation. 156 00:16:26,839 --> 00:16:31,399 So there's cognitive dissonance around that big time today. 157 00:16:32,059 --> 00:16:41,559 And while the Human Rights Foundation supports democracies, we see democracies as at least you are able to have a voice, right? 158 00:16:41,659 --> 00:16:44,779 Whereas in an authoritarianship, you cannot have a voice. 159 00:16:44,779 --> 00:16:58,899 You're actually your voice is liable to be crushed by violence. And so while democracies aren't perfect, they are far better for liberty in 2025 and authoritarian ships. 160 00:16:58,899 --> 00:17:11,839 So HRF focuses on opposing authoritarian ships, not because democracy is perfect, but it's like the Churchill saying is it's the the best worst system or the the worst of the systems I work. 161 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:16,339 I forget I'm butchering the quote, but no, I follow a bigger fish to fry. 162 00:17:16,919 --> 00:17:21,419 Yeah, truly, there is bigger fish to fry. And look, hey, you want to criticize fill in your blank democracy. 163 00:17:22,179 --> 00:17:32,419 There is a civil liberties group and a civil rights organization and a civil society in that country, in that diaspora that can do that. 164 00:17:32,419 --> 00:17:38,019 Right. But if you want to criticize in the wrong countries, you cannot do that. And that's where H.R.F. is. 165 00:17:38,019 --> 00:18:01,999 Yeah, excellent. Excellent clarification. Well, and you touched on this. I think the point, it's rattling around in my head, your point about Brazil's PICS system and your remarks, CK, about the attraction to CBDCs by dictators, by authoritarians is really about what it enables them to reach into, that they didn't perhaps have line of sight to. 166 00:18:01,999 --> 00:18:12,099 So, you know, is the threat the CBDCs themselves or is it the infrastructure that they normalize, the database that exists, whether or not anyone's looking at it yet? 167 00:18:12,099 --> 00:18:22,959 Yeah, I mean, again, I think any real fear around CBDC needs to be kind of tempered by probability of them actually shipping successfully. 168 00:18:23,659 --> 00:18:34,799 So when you say there's a threat, like I'm bearish on any of the intranets shipping with enough critical mass to be quote unquote dangerous. 169 00:18:35,179 --> 00:18:38,919 But a lot of harm can be done in the pursuit of shipping. 170 00:18:38,919 --> 00:18:50,319 And you brought up Nigeria. Well, they had a currency rebrand that was botched and hurt a lot of people in an attempt to increase CBDC adoption. 171 00:18:50,319 --> 00:19:08,319 And I believe the minister of finance and the person in charge of the e-Naira rollout said this initiative of rebranding our currency and redesigning our currency was successful because it increased CBDC adoption from 0.1% to 5%. 172 00:19:08,319 --> 00:19:15,619 percent so you know you and i have both been in the startup world but a lift from 0.1 to 5 while 173 00:19:15,619 --> 00:19:21,859 huge if it requires you know burning down the whole uh the entire system to do it it probably 174 00:19:21,859 --> 00:19:30,339 was not worth it uh and i think that that is is just a glimpse into the amount of pain the amount 175 00:19:30,339 --> 00:19:38,359 of human suffering, the amount of capital destruction that will probably be subjected 176 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:44,499 upon people who are living in the wrong jurisdiction in this pursuit of shipping their intranet 177 00:19:44,499 --> 00:19:46,359 of money, their CBDC. 178 00:19:47,139 --> 00:19:47,239 Right. 179 00:19:47,519 --> 00:19:50,379 Well, and I think, you know, and that's certainly spot on. 180 00:19:50,459 --> 00:19:55,239 I mean, we've been talking, as you note, about this in the abstract, capabilities, infrastructure, 181 00:19:55,379 --> 00:19:56,619 what governments might do. 182 00:19:56,619 --> 00:20:02,419 You have actually met people on the other end of this, Oslo Freedom Forum, HRF's workshops. 183 00:20:03,059 --> 00:20:07,959 You've, I think, you know, been engaged with people from Russia, Venezuela, Belarus, Nigeria. 184 00:20:08,299 --> 00:20:14,659 When they describe their financial situation before Bitcoin, what's the common thread? 185 00:20:14,919 --> 00:20:17,659 What does debanked actually mean in their lives? 186 00:20:17,659 --> 00:20:26,939 the common thread is that uh you either have zero access to the to the digital payments networks 187 00:20:26,939 --> 00:20:33,539 of the world or you're playing this like crazy uh go you know kind of like uh 188 00:20:33,539 --> 00:20:39,879 game you know trying to move your accounts and having administrators take you down and 189 00:20:39,879 --> 00:20:46,259 using this person or using that person as an alias you know when you are operating within 190 00:20:46,259 --> 00:20:54,759 a completely surveilled financial system with trusted third parties, if you are opposing 191 00:20:54,759 --> 00:20:57,939 the guys in charge, you're not going to have access for very long. 192 00:20:57,939 --> 00:21:05,939 So it's very clear that in a world where all digital payments to enter the digital realm 193 00:21:05,939 --> 00:21:14,199 of value, you need permission from a trusted third party that, you know, that has to answer 194 00:21:14,199 --> 00:21:15,899 to whatever government you're in. 195 00:21:15,899 --> 00:21:23,459 Again, when you're in Canada, there's certain threats that you have to pay attention to. 196 00:21:23,499 --> 00:21:24,559 In the US, you have certain threats. 197 00:21:24,919 --> 00:21:35,219 And then if you are in dictatorships, you have even more threats that you have to pay attention to in terms of your actual ability just to get access to electronic payments. 198 00:21:35,219 --> 00:21:53,279 So once folks understand Bitcoin as a means of receiving value, and then they become comfortable with their P2P Bitcoin to fiat markets, it really is an absolute game changer because one, they can hold their own money and they gain trust in that. 199 00:21:53,279 --> 00:21:58,899 And then two, they realize that they can now reconnect to digital payments. 200 00:21:59,319 --> 00:22:11,579 So many activists have relied on cash, whether that is a money gram to an envelope to a courier to their secure location, you know, or whether that is traveling across borders to get cash and then bringing it back. 201 00:22:12,079 --> 00:22:18,379 You know, having access to digital payments is necessary in modernity to have proper resistance. 202 00:22:18,379 --> 00:22:25,479 You know, it's like without it, it's like bringing a knife to a gunfight, you know. 203 00:22:25,799 --> 00:22:30,039 So it really is an absolute game changer. 204 00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:33,719 And it's only going to become more powerful. 205 00:22:33,899 --> 00:22:36,999 One of my favorite examples, people are like, so why Bitcoin? 206 00:22:37,159 --> 00:22:38,379 Like, why is Bitcoin powerful? 207 00:22:38,619 --> 00:22:40,139 How do we know it's going to be adopted? 208 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,779 And, you know, I kind of I like analogies. 209 00:22:42,839 --> 00:22:47,459 I like to bring people a little closer to past technology adoption. 210 00:22:47,459 --> 00:22:52,419 and I described to them like, look, Bitcoin is great at sending value anywhere across the world. 211 00:22:52,599 --> 00:22:59,599 There's no problems there. The problem is, is no one has Bitcoin address, right? And, and if you 212 00:22:59,599 --> 00:23:04,699 were a lot of times when I talk to anyone who's not a Zoomer, you know, they have seen the, the 213 00:23:04,699 --> 00:23:09,979 arc of email adoption. It's like, look, in the nineties, you could send email anywhere, but it 214 00:23:09,979 --> 00:23:14,459 was still hard to send an email because no one had email address. And that's where Bitcoin is right 215 00:23:14,459 --> 00:23:20,279 now. So the Bitcoin network works, but that last mile of everyone having Bitcoin address, 216 00:23:20,519 --> 00:23:25,439 everyone being able to accept Bitcoin, everyone having a Bitcoin wallet, we're not there yet. 217 00:23:25,439 --> 00:23:31,099 But the arc of technology and the art of technological adoption says that we are going 218 00:23:31,099 --> 00:23:37,119 there. And that's incredibly optimistic for Bitcoin's utility to, you know, not just enthusiasts, 219 00:23:37,439 --> 00:23:43,979 but everyone and especially people who don't have the privilege of access to the existing 220 00:23:43,979 --> 00:23:45,379 digital payment rails. 221 00:23:46,679 --> 00:23:46,799 Absolutely. 222 00:23:47,219 --> 00:23:51,779 Further on that note, so HRF runs Bitcoin 101 workshops for activists. 223 00:23:51,999 --> 00:23:54,399 I think I saw 300 students, 50 countries. 224 00:23:55,279 --> 00:23:56,839 Numbers are probably out of date. 225 00:23:56,839 --> 00:23:58,699 But what has surprised you? 226 00:23:58,779 --> 00:24:06,019 What surprises you, CK, most about what the students already know or what they're worried 227 00:24:06,019 --> 00:24:11,459 about or afraid of, given that fear could be a very justified concern in their particular 228 00:24:11,459 --> 00:24:12,059 situation? 229 00:24:12,059 --> 00:24:29,479 The hardest questions to answer is how to navigate your particular country's legal situation, especially as an organization. That seems to be like the biggest worry. We've gotten to the stage now where the people who are participating in the workshop already have money problems. 230 00:24:29,479 --> 00:24:33,679 they already have access to financial system problems. 231 00:24:33,799 --> 00:24:34,859 They've already been debanked. 232 00:24:34,959 --> 00:24:36,959 They've seen colleagues be debanked. 233 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:43,479 They already know the difference between a debit card payment and a cash payment. 234 00:24:43,999 --> 00:24:47,259 So they're like looking for answers. 235 00:24:48,179 --> 00:24:50,039 It's just the implementation part. 236 00:24:50,139 --> 00:24:51,079 Is this legal? 237 00:24:51,519 --> 00:24:53,579 How do I solve the last mile problem, right? 238 00:24:53,579 --> 00:24:56,519 How do I turn this into goods and services or fiat money? 239 00:24:56,959 --> 00:25:02,179 How do I send it to someone, you know, who may not be educated on it? 240 00:25:02,219 --> 00:25:03,499 It's those kind of questions. 241 00:25:03,499 --> 00:25:05,339 And they're very predictable. 242 00:25:06,079 --> 00:25:12,899 The issue, right, is just getting organized, getting the information, and then communicating it in a way that they understand. 243 00:25:13,579 --> 00:25:15,999 And I think that that's where HRF is fantastic. 244 00:25:16,879 --> 00:25:19,919 We have some amazing educators. 245 00:25:20,779 --> 00:25:26,499 Anna Chekovich, who is the financial director of the Anti-Corruption Foundation under Yulia Navalny. 246 00:25:26,519 --> 00:25:32,839 she has she's probably so she's the financial manager of the ACF she's probably been running 247 00:25:32,839 --> 00:25:39,599 an organization that depends on bitcoin longer than anyone else on a bitcoin standard so they 248 00:25:39,599 --> 00:25:45,559 have needed to be on bitcoin because if you think about their situation their main audience is in 249 00:25:45,559 --> 00:25:52,439 Russia they are outside of Russia to Russians if you send them fiat you can go to prison 250 00:25:52,439 --> 00:26:02,519 And then to them, it is forbidden for them to use Western payment rails to send value to their audience in Russia. 251 00:26:02,959 --> 00:26:04,699 So, like, they need Bitcoin. 252 00:26:04,919 --> 00:26:07,459 They need Bitcoin to receive donations from their audience. 253 00:26:07,699 --> 00:26:16,399 And they also need Bitcoin to send value to the folks who are pushing for democracy and opposing Vladimir Putin in Russia. 254 00:26:16,919 --> 00:26:19,759 If there wasn't Bitcoin, there would be nothing else for them. 255 00:26:19,819 --> 00:26:21,099 They could not do their work. 256 00:26:21,839 --> 00:26:28,759 So she is the most experienced person in the world, you know, the most qualified person in the world to be teaching other activists how to use this. 257 00:26:28,759 --> 00:26:35,339 And she has teamed up with Nguyen from our team, who he escaped Myanmar. 258 00:26:36,719 --> 00:26:47,879 He was a social media influencer who opposed the junta, had his life threatened, and then used Bitcoin to take all of his value and escape to Thailand. 259 00:26:48,419 --> 00:26:50,359 And now he works for the Human Rights Foundation. 260 00:26:50,359 --> 00:27:03,239 And then Ben Sessions, BTC Sessions, who is the person who taught me how to use a hardware wallet back in 2017. So he's probably been one of the most prolific Bitcoin educators on the planet. 261 00:27:03,239 --> 00:27:24,858 So we combined these three people to teach a webinar to activists four times a year about how to leverage Bitcoin from a one perspective from an activist individual perspective And then on our third day of the webinar is teaching nonprofits as an organization how to leverage Bitcoin and answer their organization specific questions 262 00:27:24,858 --> 00:27:32,038 So, yeah, I mean, in terms of that product, I think it has an incredible product market fit. 263 00:27:32,618 --> 00:27:43,298 And it is also really spearheading this world where civil rights organizations are starting to really take Bitcoin seriously. 264 00:27:43,518 --> 00:27:47,378 And they're starting to actually leverage Bitcoin internally. 265 00:27:47,378 --> 00:28:00,538 And it's very exciting to see the narratives shift from Bitcoin bad and is dangerous to Bitcoin is going to help me with my work and Bitcoin is safe and will protect me. 266 00:28:01,018 --> 00:28:05,957 And that narrative shift is happening in the nonprofit space, in the civil liberty space. 267 00:28:05,957 --> 00:28:14,898 So I think that, you know, that is going to also silence critics because they can say Bitcoin is for drug dealers and we can say Bitcoin is for democracy activists. 268 00:28:15,398 --> 00:28:17,358 And we can give them a lot of great examples of that. 269 00:28:18,398 --> 00:28:25,338 Love it. And I mean, I have to imagine that is one of the highest stressed scenarios in which to test the technology. 270 00:28:25,338 --> 00:28:29,338 And so to your point, you know, that's that's great for everybody. 271 00:28:29,338 --> 00:28:45,658 And in terms of what Bitcoiners and builders on Bitcoin can learn, CK, what's the failure mode? When has Bitcoin not worked for someone in a scenario that you've described? And what do we learn from that? 272 00:28:45,658 --> 00:28:59,798 Okay, so let's dive into the failure modes. I would say right now, from a product perspective, Bitcoin as a consumer product, as an enterprise product, is very, very rudimentary. 273 00:29:01,438 --> 00:29:11,318 And the products have a long way to go, and the builders have a long way to go in terms of understanding how to take products to the market. 274 00:29:12,258 --> 00:29:16,338 So a lot of the work that we do is we actually support the Bitcoin Design Foundation. 275 00:29:17,278 --> 00:29:21,018 And the Bitcoin Design Foundation does user research. 276 00:29:21,798 --> 00:29:26,138 And they try to gather that user research and inform Bitcoin builders. 277 00:29:26,457 --> 00:29:32,398 And there's still a lot of friction there in terms of taking the user research and applying it to your product. 278 00:29:32,697 --> 00:29:39,618 And I kind of just blame this as a lot of these product teams are very rudimentary early product teams, right? 279 00:29:39,618 --> 00:29:53,358 You know, we're not talking about folks that are building viral products, you know, for meta or for open AI or some of these tech companies that have massive user bases leveraging Bitcoin and building on Bitcoin. 280 00:29:53,477 --> 00:29:56,098 We're still talking about early enthusiast builders. 281 00:29:56,658 --> 00:30:02,378 And a lot of those early enthusiast builders are just scratching their own itch, which is great for early enthusiasts. 282 00:30:02,918 --> 00:30:07,278 It's not great for people who need money, Bitcoin to be full stack money today. 283 00:30:07,278 --> 00:30:11,778 And we see those failures up and down the Bitcoin stack. 284 00:30:11,898 --> 00:30:13,278 Not to say that it's not improving. 285 00:30:14,457 --> 00:30:19,457 You know, when Ahrefs got into Bitcoin, there was really no wallet that you can recommend. 286 00:30:19,798 --> 00:30:24,658 Now there's several wallets that you can recommend that are relatively easy, that have access to on-chain and Lightning, 287 00:30:25,558 --> 00:30:32,178 that, you know, you can give someone a demo over a webinar quickly with. 288 00:30:32,438 --> 00:30:34,158 That didn't used to exist. 289 00:30:34,717 --> 00:30:37,038 I'm very optimistic with the trajectory. 290 00:30:37,278 --> 00:30:44,418 but I do think that Bitcoin builders need to think about the users a lot more and I think that that 291 00:30:44,418 --> 00:30:51,318 is just a failure across the board and the products that are probably going viral are the ones where 292 00:30:51,318 --> 00:30:57,618 the product teams think about the users very very deeply and unfortunately that's very few and far 293 00:30:57,618 --> 00:31:04,638 between right now in the Bitcoin space but look we're still early so I'm not disillusioned at all 294 00:31:04,638 --> 00:31:06,898 but there's definitely a lot to build as well. 295 00:31:07,898 --> 00:31:07,998 Absolutely. 296 00:31:08,318 --> 00:31:09,358 And I mean, I've spent a lot of time 297 00:31:09,358 --> 00:31:10,778 talking about that recently. 298 00:31:10,957 --> 00:31:12,957 I had Stephen DeLorme on a couple of weeks ago. 299 00:31:13,518 --> 00:31:15,737 So grateful for that guy, his talents 300 00:31:15,737 --> 00:31:18,878 and the whole group of volunteers 301 00:31:18,878 --> 00:31:20,298 working on Bitcoin design. 302 00:31:21,518 --> 00:31:23,038 I know you mentioned, 303 00:31:23,358 --> 00:31:26,258 and you were very deft at this, CK, 304 00:31:26,697 --> 00:31:30,558 when you spoke earlier about the focus of HRF 305 00:31:30,558 --> 00:31:32,938 on dictatorships, not on democracy. 306 00:31:32,938 --> 00:31:38,678 So I'll ask you to take off your HRF hat because I think there's still a lot that you can help us understand. 307 00:31:39,118 --> 00:31:46,598 You know, there's a version of this conversation, as we have had, where it's about Russia, Belarus, Venezuela, bad actors doing bad things. 308 00:31:47,278 --> 00:31:51,217 But where I'd like to go at least for a minute is, you know, you touched on this. 309 00:31:51,318 --> 00:31:52,678 Canada froze bank accounts. 310 00:31:52,818 --> 00:31:54,938 The U.K. debanked Nigel Farage. 311 00:31:55,038 --> 00:31:55,977 Think what you will of him. 312 00:31:56,438 --> 00:31:58,318 The U.S. is Operation Chokepoint. 313 00:31:58,878 --> 00:32:01,938 In my professional capacity, I've encountered that directly. 314 00:32:01,938 --> 00:32:27,578 I think by all intents and purposes, it is ongoing. So when you talk to human rights groups, you know, I assume you're positioning Bitcoin as protection against dictators. But in your own sort of private conversations, perhaps is the way to frame it. You know, what's your take on Bitcoin's importance in Western democracies? And again, I'll ask that in an unofficial capacity. 315 00:32:27,578 --> 00:32:45,358 Well, I think I can actually quote my boss on this. Alex Gladstein is that Bitcoin resembles or embodies American values. He wrote an article for Bitcoin magazine about that, that he released on the 4th of July, I believe it was in 2021, or it was 2022. 316 00:32:45,358 --> 00:32:54,138 I truly believe that Bitcoin does embody Western values as a technology. 317 00:32:54,658 --> 00:33:03,158 And that's actually why the West will most likely embrace Bitcoin while dictators continue to oppose Bitcoin. 318 00:33:03,697 --> 00:33:13,457 And, you know, I think that there is no bigger testament to that, to seeing the attitude of dictators, especially CCP and Russia, towards Bitcoin. 319 00:33:13,457 --> 00:33:26,338 And maybe it's the begrudging attitude of Western policymakers towards Bitcoin, but the trend towards allowance and kind of letting the genie out of the bottle, if you will. 320 00:33:26,338 --> 00:33:31,338 So not to have faith in lots of governments because I don't. 321 00:33:32,038 --> 00:33:44,298 And I think that Bitcoiners want to trust less and verify more and want to take more self-responsibility towards their money and their custody and have less faith in institutions and third parties as a trend. 322 00:33:44,538 --> 00:33:54,338 I do think that in a world where it's democracy versus dictators and who's going to open up the box for Bitcoin more, it's going to be the democracies. 323 00:33:54,338 --> 00:33:59,938 democracies. Right. And I think that the facts already bear that that is the case. 324 00:34:00,538 --> 00:34:04,338 And I think that trend is going to continue, even though it's not going to be a straight line up. 325 00:34:04,477 --> 00:34:09,718 It's going to be yes, no fighting against it, accepting it, this party saying yes, 326 00:34:09,778 --> 00:34:15,677 this party saying no, then they flip flop. And, you know, the political football is going to be 327 00:34:15,677 --> 00:34:21,778 kicked all the way up to Bitcoin adoption. Well, and I mean, let me let me pull on this 328 00:34:21,778 --> 00:34:25,838 thread just for a little bit longer and then we'll move on. But, you know, what's the difference 329 00:34:25,838 --> 00:34:31,977 between what Canada did to keep picking on my friends to the north and what Belarus does? Is 330 00:34:31,977 --> 00:34:38,598 it just a matter of degree or is there a principle distinction outside of one being a democracy and 331 00:34:38,598 --> 00:34:44,918 one not? Yeah, no, I think that there's very little distinction. And I think that this is why 332 00:34:44,918 --> 00:34:55,598 it is going to more and more come down to a world that requires trustless money to continue to scale up and continue to globalize. 333 00:34:56,677 --> 00:35:00,938 And not every democracy is going to win. 334 00:35:02,058 --> 00:35:06,477 And yeah, there's going to be a lot that slide backwards. 335 00:35:06,718 --> 00:35:08,258 There's going to be a lot that embrace China. 336 00:35:08,498 --> 00:35:10,798 There's going to be a lot that reject Bitcoin. 337 00:35:10,798 --> 00:35:22,018 But I think just like in history, the countries that embraced gunpowder and the countries that embraced gold were superior to the ones that did not. 338 00:35:22,018 --> 00:35:47,177 And the ones that stuck to silver, stuck to some other monetary technology, those that embrace the better monetary technology that enables trustless transactions, that does not have inflation as an issue to kind of disrupt it, they're just going to win over time. 339 00:35:47,177 --> 00:35:57,078 And honestly, like, that's my bet personally. But I think that that's also a bet that HRF is organizationally aligned with as well. 340 00:35:58,898 --> 00:36:10,718 Well, and speaking of sort of where it's going and what the capabilities are, you touched on this. HRF has given, I think, just shy of $8 million to 280-some-odd projects. Does that sound about right? 341 00:36:10,718 --> 00:36:30,758 I got to check our paperwork to get the numbers right. I can't get them straight, but it's a lot. It's a lot. This year alone, we're going to distribute $4 million to open source Bitcoin projects that support freedom and education in some of the worst places on earth. 342 00:36:30,758 --> 00:36:51,158 Yes. Yeah. And so and tremendous. When you when you look at what you're funding, privacy tools, e-cash, lightning infrastructure, what sort of the theory of change? What has to get built for Bitcoin to work sufficiently for a dissident in 2027? 343 00:36:51,158 --> 00:37:01,398 And what are the gaps if, you know, there are particular gaps? You talked about UX. I think that's a big one. But what has to work or work better over the coming years? 344 00:37:01,398 --> 00:37:17,798 Yeah, I mean, I think Bitcoin as a full stack money, its development around that is the most important thing. I think money is the killer feature, but it's kind of a chicken or the egg issue, right? 345 00:37:17,798 --> 00:37:29,618 So the ability for people to earn Bitcoin and then use Bitcoin to plug into a global market is the killer feature. 346 00:37:30,177 --> 00:37:40,258 And that solves the KYC, the surveillance, and all the tools that democracies use to protect us and dictators use to oppress their subjects. 347 00:37:40,258 --> 00:37:49,477 So it really is about solving this kind of last mile problem around Bitcoin. 348 00:37:50,058 --> 00:37:56,677 And, you know, I think that that's just going to take time, but it's going to look a lot like other technology adoption. 349 00:37:57,258 --> 00:38:00,138 And again, it was hard to send email when no one had email address. 350 00:38:00,298 --> 00:38:05,638 It wasn't that email wasn't a great protocol for sending that data across borders, time and space. 351 00:38:05,718 --> 00:38:07,198 It's just that no one had email. 352 00:38:07,198 --> 00:38:13,098 So this is like a this is a Metcalfe's law issue more than anything else. 353 00:38:13,098 --> 00:38:29,938 And that just takes time. And I think that it will be catalyzed with smarter product building, more relatable education, as well as more and more failure by the incumbent system. 354 00:38:29,938 --> 00:38:37,918 So it's kind of people are getting squeezed towards Bitcoin in both directions, both innovation and incumbent failure. 355 00:38:38,457 --> 00:38:43,977 Future is already here. It's just not evenly distributed and betting on incumbent failure. 356 00:38:44,158 --> 00:38:48,558 I think that's that's too interesting and uncertain, undoubtedly certain bookends. 357 00:38:49,418 --> 00:38:53,358 So in in evaluating these grants. 358 00:38:53,358 --> 00:38:58,758 what's being built right now that most people don't know about? 359 00:38:58,858 --> 00:39:00,118 What should we be watching? 360 00:39:01,118 --> 00:39:04,658 What has excited you in the past 6 to 12 months, let's say? 361 00:39:06,677 --> 00:39:11,078 I mean, I think that when it comes to what is being built right now, 362 00:39:11,377 --> 00:39:14,118 we are very excited about eCache. 363 00:39:14,118 --> 00:39:16,258 We are very excited about Noster. 364 00:39:16,977 --> 00:39:19,578 And we are very excited about open source AI. 365 00:39:19,578 --> 00:39:40,918 And, you know, we see these three technologies as being extremely complementary to base layer Bitcoin in allowing Bitcoin to become more relatable and adoptable, as well as bootstrapping this kind of Bitcoin circular economy. 366 00:39:40,918 --> 00:39:57,677 And so just to give you an example, I use Zeus Wallet myself, and I use it to accept my zaps on Noster, and it gets put into an e-cash wallet within Zeus. 367 00:39:57,677 --> 00:40:07,398 and that href has had a place in that entire kind of circle emerging and what that looks like to me is 368 00:40:07,398 --> 00:40:14,558 a permissionless way to tap into a circular bitcoin economy i was actually looking you know 369 00:40:14,558 --> 00:40:23,998 every time you reopen zeus wallet it has to kind of re-sync and and re uh and and update the balance 370 00:40:23,998 --> 00:40:29,398 based on counting new eCash tokens that have been sent to you. 371 00:40:29,957 --> 00:40:34,898 And it's amazing to kind of see like, wow, here I am in 2025 372 00:40:34,898 --> 00:40:41,418 and I can participate in a social network that helps me earn Bitcoin. 373 00:40:41,418 --> 00:40:43,658 And that wasn't possible before. 374 00:40:44,918 --> 00:40:50,477 And while Nostra right now seems like a social network for Bitcoiners, 375 00:40:50,477 --> 00:41:07,716 There are activists that feel the pain of being deplatformed in their country on fill in the blank social centralized social media that see the utility and they are trying to build solutions with other bitcoiners on how do we 376 00:41:07,716 --> 00:41:14,696 create a social network for argentinians or how do we create a social network for venezuelans or 377 00:41:14,696 --> 00:41:21,936 how do we create a social network for belarusans that leverages nostr and leverages the open source 378 00:41:21,936 --> 00:41:27,516 infrastructure that was already built and forks the clients, but helps them just be in their 379 00:41:27,516 --> 00:41:34,196 community. Right. And, and that is happening. Uh, and that is, it's so, so bullish because 380 00:41:34,196 --> 00:41:41,617 all of it is bringing new people in and removing friction. Right. Uh, and you know, kind of on that, 381 00:41:41,617 --> 00:41:46,637 I really like e-cash, not like e-cash isn't perfect. It solves a lot of problems and makes 382 00:41:46,637 --> 00:41:54,496 smart trade-offs that align with users, but it is enabling so many new products to emerge 383 00:41:54,496 --> 00:41:57,496 because it enables jurisdictional arbitrage. 384 00:41:58,036 --> 00:42:02,456 You know, what was once, hey, you could not offer this because you have to register as 385 00:42:02,456 --> 00:42:02,836 a bank. 386 00:42:02,996 --> 00:42:08,196 Now you can just integrate eCash or now you can just integrate ARK and it allows the product 387 00:42:08,196 --> 00:42:16,796 to find a jurisdictional way or a way to kind of like sidestep that legal blocker that's 388 00:42:16,796 --> 00:42:18,436 preventing them from building the product. 389 00:42:18,936 --> 00:42:25,396 You know, a lot of the blockers of this technology is legal uncertainty, right? 390 00:42:25,396 --> 00:42:33,496 And as these new ways of building products, new ways of shifting trust from one place 391 00:42:33,496 --> 00:42:38,176 to another, new ways of creating different trade-off balances emerge, it just doesn't 392 00:42:38,176 --> 00:42:57,816 It just opens up the door for more and more products to be brought to the market and to help people become more sovereign, become more connected to the global economy, become more able to resist if they are in a negative or an authoritarian situation. 393 00:42:57,816 --> 00:43:24,676 So, yeah, I mean, again, I think it's just cool being a Bitcoin enthusiast, being able to be a part of an organization that is giving grants to support the technology and then seeing the feedback loop of, and I'm using this technology and it is benefiting me and doing what I wanted to do and giving me access to things that I did not have access to prior to that technology getting developed and getting funded and getting more harnessed. 394 00:43:24,676 --> 00:43:50,836 Yeah, and that's, you know, it's a really interesting point that despite low time preference and despite, you know, do it once, do it right, and the slow progression, some would say, of certain protocols, certainly BaseLayer Bitcoin, that, as you say, you're able to, through HRF, fund a team, fund a product, fund an open source initiative, and shortly thereafter sort of see it, hold it in your hands. 395 00:43:50,836 --> 00:44:16,656 And absolutely shout out to Evan and Zeus. I think this graduated approach from e-cash to, you know, lightning to custodial to non-custodial is fantastic. And I think what I take out of this is that, as you say, that maps to a graduated legal risk or threat and being able to arbitrage that. 396 00:44:16,656 --> 00:44:26,436 Um, so as we, as we sort of wrap this up, CK, and maybe bring it, bring it to the U.S. for a bit, 397 00:44:26,556 --> 00:44:31,056 um, and we've touched on this, but I'm going to ask us that we go back. So someone's listening to 398 00:44:31,056 --> 00:44:35,676 this, you know, in the U.S., they're nodding along and thinking this doesn't really affect me. 399 00:44:36,516 --> 00:44:41,536 Um, you know, we think CBDCs and financial censorship are someone else's problems. You 400 00:44:41,536 --> 00:44:46,137 know, we could disavow them of that knowledge in many ways, but what's the vector by which 401 00:44:46,137 --> 00:44:49,576 this becomes our problem here in the U.S.? 402 00:44:49,576 --> 00:44:52,276 Like, you know, why should they be paying attention 403 00:44:52,276 --> 00:44:55,156 and certainly supporting, I think, HRF? 404 00:44:55,476 --> 00:44:57,816 In terms of, you know, why Americans should support HRF, 405 00:44:57,936 --> 00:45:00,117 I think just look at our body of work. 406 00:45:00,376 --> 00:45:04,676 And if you want to get a tax-deductible donation 407 00:45:04,676 --> 00:45:09,936 to supporting this brand of the Bitcoin development ecosystem 408 00:45:09,936 --> 00:45:15,816 and, you know, our mission around bringing financial freedom to the world, 409 00:45:16,136 --> 00:45:23,756 I think that there's a lot of benefits and a lot of kind of clear reasons why to support the Human Rights Foundation from that perspective. 410 00:45:25,196 --> 00:45:33,456 But, you know, when it comes to Americans, I think that Americans understand that what happens outside of our country affects us. 411 00:45:33,456 --> 00:45:55,656 And that Americans have always understood that if we don't, you know, like, for example, I think the war against communism did not work. But the intention behind that was the right intention, which is that we need to have global markets, we need to have global freedom. 412 00:45:55,656 --> 00:46:16,436 Otherwise, America itself cannot be free. Otherwise, America itself cannot have the benefits of free markets. And I think that we're still in that fight. Right. And that's why I think that in the long run, America and the West will embrace Bitcoin and export Bitcoin to the world. 413 00:46:16,436 --> 00:46:29,916 And I think Bitcoin will help people living in much less privileged situations come online and contribute to that global market and be a part of the solution rather than being victims of the problem that they're born into. 414 00:46:30,636 --> 00:46:44,796 So, you know, I think Americans should support Bitcoin as well as this fight for liberty globally from a self-interested perspective as well as a philanthropic perspective. 415 00:46:44,796 --> 00:46:53,896 so and again that's why I'm in this fight myself I it's not enough for you know me to be taken care 416 00:46:53,896 --> 00:47:00,796 of if everyone else on the planet is living in a digital gulag right that then you're just running 417 00:47:00,796 --> 00:47:07,076 away you're not living in a world that is benefiting from the most of these values this 418 00:47:07,076 --> 00:47:11,936 technology and you know what can be brought to humanity you know I want to push the forward 419 00:47:11,936 --> 00:47:19,136 March of Humanity Forward. I think that Americans want to do that in general. And yeah, even today 420 00:47:19,136 --> 00:47:26,816 with the political energy behind closing borders and isolationism, you know, I don't think that 421 00:47:26,816 --> 00:47:36,156 that is out of the insight of we can just escape these problems, but people want to find ways to 422 00:47:36,156 --> 00:47:41,596 do it in a more fair way, right? And I think that rather than exporting troops, rather than 423 00:47:41,596 --> 00:47:49,636 exporting inflation, the way that we do that is we export freedom technology. And, you know, 424 00:47:49,756 --> 00:47:54,756 that might be a nascent perspective right now, but I think that freedom fighters, 425 00:47:54,956 --> 00:48:01,516 principled Americans, principled people who believe in liberal values, they're going to 426 00:48:01,516 --> 00:48:05,396 find that this is actually the best vector in which to push liberty forward. 427 00:48:06,736 --> 00:48:11,416 Love that. Love that. Understanding that your focus is on financial freedom and Bitcoin, 428 00:48:11,596 --> 00:48:16,676 to zoom out just a bit, but to stay with, you know, why this matters. 429 00:48:17,316 --> 00:48:22,176 So Bitcoin fixes the money, but money isn't the only sort of system of trust that's breaking. 430 00:48:22,776 --> 00:48:28,336 Talk to me for a few minutes about the parallels you see in the work HRF is doing 431 00:48:28,336 --> 00:48:34,236 in identity, AI, sort of that sphere. 432 00:48:34,236 --> 00:48:39,796 So in AI, we just launched the AI for Individual Rights Initiative, 433 00:48:39,796 --> 00:49:07,696 which I think is the only kind of nonprofit AI initiative that isn't focused about on, you know, saving humanity from our AI overlords, from this kind of general intelligence, super intelligence, getting out of control and actually focused on much more practical, much less theoretical issues, which is how do these big data surveillance systems, how can they be abused by dictators? 434 00:49:07,696 --> 00:49:20,936 How can they be abused by government as well as how can freedom fighters leverage them in the power that they enable in a safe, secure way to push forward their work? 435 00:49:21,476 --> 00:49:32,836 So it's probably the most practical, the most grounded AI program out there in terms of pushing forward or having an agenda within the AI space. 436 00:49:32,836 --> 00:49:42,296 And yeah, I think that that ties into Bitcoin very well because you see that the builders of that AI space are often Bitcoiners. 437 00:49:42,496 --> 00:49:49,556 The builders who are building privacy, respecting individual, respecting data, respecting solutions. 438 00:49:50,176 --> 00:49:54,816 They are people who are in the general freedom tech spaces or people who have already embraced Bitcoin. 439 00:49:54,816 --> 00:50:06,696 And then the other side of the coin, you know, the people who aren't already orange pilled, they're having a very difficult time from like focusing on what the real issues at hand are. 440 00:50:07,016 --> 00:50:14,196 You know, they're focusing on how is AI going to take over our lives rather than how are the people who are controlling our lives already? 441 00:50:15,036 --> 00:50:17,956 How are they how could they potentially abuse AI? 442 00:50:17,956 --> 00:50:22,456 and yeah I think that that just shows 443 00:50:22,456 --> 00:50:25,076 HRF's ability to really hone in 444 00:50:25,076 --> 00:50:27,036 on what the real problems are here 445 00:50:27,036 --> 00:50:28,696 and cut through the noise 446 00:50:28,696 --> 00:50:31,956 and I look forward to assisting HRF 447 00:50:31,956 --> 00:50:35,156 to continue to find even more avenues to do that 448 00:50:35,156 --> 00:50:37,276 in terms of identity, identity is tricky 449 00:50:37,276 --> 00:50:41,236 we don't have, I don't think we have an official 450 00:50:41,236 --> 00:50:45,117 program or opinion on identity 451 00:50:45,117 --> 00:50:47,636 you know there's a flip side of like 452 00:50:47,636 --> 00:50:51,676 hey, you can't access banking services because you don't have identity. Well, Bitcoin fixes that. 453 00:50:52,356 --> 00:50:57,756 And then on the flip side, there's a lot of danger in terms of tracking people's identity, 454 00:50:57,936 --> 00:51:03,617 putting people's IDs in databases, et cetera, especially when it comes to abuse from 455 00:51:03,617 --> 00:51:11,356 authoritarians. So it's still an area that I think we are trying to navigate if we can 456 00:51:11,356 --> 00:51:17,496 make a difference there. Stay tuned. Well, let's wrap it up here, CK. Let's come back to 457 00:51:17,496 --> 00:51:24,676 financial freedom. What does success look like for your work? What's the scenario or the world 458 00:51:24,676 --> 00:51:31,276 in which HRF's financial freedom program declares victory? Man, that's a tough one. There's so many 459 00:51:31,276 --> 00:51:38,936 issues that we have to continue to push forward. I think we're in a very early stage. Yeah, 460 00:51:39,716 --> 00:51:47,256 I don't think victory is even closer on the horizon. So I can't give you a scenario for that. 461 00:51:47,496 --> 00:51:59,236 But we want to see the civil liberties and the liberty space in general embrace Bitcoin. 462 00:51:59,236 --> 00:52:04,056 I think we want to see our counterparts embrace Bitcoin. 463 00:52:04,696 --> 00:52:16,156 And we want to see the freedom fighters leveraging Bitcoin and then having that enable their work and having that make them a better activist. 464 00:52:16,156 --> 00:52:23,556 this and make them more successful. And I think that and we think that that is that is the path 465 00:52:23,556 --> 00:52:30,216 to continuing to change the narrative around Bitcoin, continue to educate around Bitcoin, 466 00:52:30,356 --> 00:52:37,596 show utility around Bitcoin, and ultimately usher in a world that runs on Bitcoin. And that is a 467 00:52:37,596 --> 00:52:45,356 world that, you know, I think as a baseline offers a lot more liberty and freedom and accessibility 468 00:52:45,356 --> 00:52:47,556 to everyone online. 469 00:52:47,776 --> 00:52:50,556 You know, my mental model for why is Bitcoin important? 470 00:52:50,556 --> 00:52:59,956 Well, today's world, 1 billion people live in democracy with stable currency and property 471 00:52:59,956 --> 00:53:00,436 rights. 472 00:53:01,596 --> 00:53:09,576 And 7 billion people are subjected to less than that in order for that 1 billion to get 473 00:53:09,576 --> 00:53:09,796 it. 474 00:53:10,316 --> 00:53:13,496 And I think that Bitcoin is going to flip that. 475 00:53:13,496 --> 00:53:31,316 And Bitcoin is actually going to give the best property rights, the most stable currency to everyone and is going to build a system where the 7 billion people who are kind of downtrodden and part and outside of those who have, it's going to bring them online. 476 00:53:31,316 --> 00:53:42,936 And I see that as not just a philosophical win, but actually I think from a utility perspective, it's actually a win for everyone on earth. 477 00:53:42,976 --> 00:53:45,916 Because what kind of human capital is being wasted today? 478 00:53:46,617 --> 00:53:48,316 What kind of human capital is being squandered? 479 00:53:48,316 --> 00:53:55,216 squandered. How many geniuses have no chance to express their genius and to benefit humanity 480 00:53:55,216 --> 00:54:02,216 because their government, because their financial system, because their access to electricity and 481 00:54:02,216 --> 00:54:07,956 the internet? And I think Bitcoin is the catalyst for bringing those people online and ultimately 482 00:54:07,956 --> 00:54:12,796 helping humanity benefit from that human capital that's currently being wasted. 483 00:54:14,656 --> 00:54:17,976 LFG. Cheers to that. Really, really appreciate it, CK. 484 00:54:18,316 --> 00:54:19,636 Thanks so much, buddy.