1
00:00:03,199 --> 00:00:04,340
Alright. Max,

2
00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:08,500
welcome. Thanks for taking the time. Well, thanks, John, for doing the podcast.

3
00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:09,599
Absolutely. Like

4
00:00:11,040 --> 00:00:12,820
I know, generally speaking, you're

5
00:00:13,519 --> 00:00:14,835
gallivanting around Europe,

6
00:00:15,235 --> 00:00:15,735
broadly.

7
00:00:16,435 --> 00:00:16,835
And,

8
00:00:18,035 --> 00:00:23,575
I think I saw that you're you have a session or an event you're running at BTC Prague. Is that right?

9
00:00:24,115 --> 00:00:28,935
Yes. BTC Prague is a lovely conference. I enjoyed the the first two years were were incredible.

10
00:00:29,470 --> 00:00:32,370
Really a very well organized large event,

11
00:00:33,230 --> 00:00:43,825
and looking forward to the third one. Excellent. Probably gonna be better than before. Any other what what else is new for you? I know you've got I'd love to get a a glimpse into your short story if that's

12
00:00:44,205 --> 00:00:46,145
if that's something we could get a peek into.

13
00:00:46,685 --> 00:00:53,105
So my my my background is mainly in economics. Right? I've I've always loved think about entrepreneurship and and monetary theory

14
00:00:53,500 --> 00:01:01,440
and fell down the Austrian economics rabbit hole quite early in life and, that primed me for Bitcoin. Right? But what was missing was more of the technological

15
00:01:01,820 --> 00:01:02,320
appreciation

16
00:01:02,700 --> 00:01:06,640
of what is free and open source software, what what is decipher punks, what is encryption.

17
00:01:07,125 --> 00:01:13,545
That came later in my life and that was needed for me to actually grok Bitcoin and and and really understand why it's so important.

18
00:01:14,245 --> 00:01:19,590
And yeah, since, since then of of really making that connection of of Bitcoin as,

19
00:01:19,990 --> 00:01:21,609
unstoppable freedom tech

20
00:01:21,990 --> 00:01:22,969
and freedom money.

21
00:01:23,429 --> 00:01:27,450
That really led me to do my part in building the tools

22
00:01:27,829 --> 00:01:29,609
out there. I'm not a developer.

23
00:01:30,390 --> 00:01:33,289
I'm more on the, let's say, product side, you know,

24
00:01:33,835 --> 00:01:36,655
finding out what should be built and coordinating the devs,

25
00:01:37,035 --> 00:01:40,575
and motivating them to get things done, you know, getting user feedback,

26
00:01:41,115 --> 00:01:43,295
writing the documentation, these type of things.

27
00:01:43,995 --> 00:01:44,475
So,

28
00:01:45,355 --> 00:01:48,255
we need much more than just developers to build the FreedomTech.

29
00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,740
Right? Even though it's software, there's a whole bunch of other stuff.

30
00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,140
So I'm I'm on the other stuff category,

31
00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:55,580
everything but code.

32
00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,020
And I do that for In fact, you know, and and

33
00:01:59,479 --> 00:02:00,380
there were two

34
00:02:00,695 --> 00:02:03,354
primary reasons I was motivated to invite you. One is

35
00:02:03,655 --> 00:02:07,755
you are a triple threat across economics, philosophy, and technology.

36
00:02:08,295 --> 00:02:13,515
And I know you claim not to be a software developer, but but I think your commit history on GitHub may

37
00:02:13,895 --> 00:02:14,855
may challenge that.

38
00:02:16,110 --> 00:02:17,890
And also because from my standpoint,

39
00:02:18,750 --> 00:02:20,610
you, to a large degree, live in the future.

40
00:02:21,629 --> 00:02:27,890
And you've got a lot to sort of inform those of us, particularly in the Bitcoin community, and and the reach the intention

41
00:02:28,510 --> 00:02:31,250
for this show is to reach a broader audience.

42
00:02:32,015 --> 00:02:36,675
So for those who are, you know, within the Bitcoin sphere, they'll know you well.

43
00:02:37,055 --> 00:02:38,355
For those who are not,

44
00:02:39,695 --> 00:02:40,435
you are

45
00:02:40,815 --> 00:02:43,955
conducting your life and your business in ways that I think is a real

46
00:02:44,690 --> 00:02:48,870
fascinating look at at what the future may look like, and certainly people like myself hope,

47
00:02:49,730 --> 00:02:54,710
that it looks like. And with that, I mean, how do you see Bitcoin fundamentally reshaping

48
00:02:55,090 --> 00:02:58,870
pardon me, reshaping the way trust works, both certainly in

49
00:02:59,364 --> 00:03:01,144
individual financial transactions,

50
00:03:01,525 --> 00:03:03,545
but in a broader societal

51
00:03:04,084 --> 00:03:04,584
sense,

52
00:03:05,205 --> 00:03:06,425
as compared to

53
00:03:06,885 --> 00:03:08,644
traditional institutions? Yeah.

54
00:03:09,045 --> 00:03:12,504
That's that's a very pressing and important question. And,

55
00:03:13,250 --> 00:03:18,570
I I certainly can say that that Bitcoin is something worth to trust,

56
00:03:19,190 --> 00:03:20,330
which is maybe,

57
00:03:21,030 --> 00:03:27,130
difficult for newcomers to see. And because we've we're used to trusting other systems. Right? We're used to trusting

58
00:03:27,795 --> 00:03:29,975
banks and big institutions and and governments.

59
00:03:30,675 --> 00:03:31,155
And,

60
00:03:31,475 --> 00:03:35,015
you know, that's just a trust that we've grown up with and that we,

61
00:03:35,555 --> 00:03:38,055
assume is is valid and and worthy to give.

62
00:03:38,515 --> 00:03:40,849
And, you know, just just,

63
00:03:41,250 --> 00:03:59,835
before I fell down the Bitcoin rabbit hole really hard, I signed a three year contract to work at Deutsche Bank. So I was, in the belly of the beast, so to say, and and, work working my way through the the institution to really get a glimpse of of what it is that it does and to where the people involved in it. And I was shocked of,

64
00:04:00,695 --> 00:04:02,075
how much the trust,

65
00:04:02,775 --> 00:04:06,155
of of the client was extended to to the bank.

66
00:04:06,950 --> 00:04:10,150
Banks have an enormous amount of power and and,

67
00:04:10,950 --> 00:04:11,450
privilege

68
00:04:11,990 --> 00:04:14,970
to act on behalf of users and recommend them,

69
00:04:15,350 --> 00:04:18,010
you know, assets and financial vehicles, etcetera.

70
00:04:18,550 --> 00:04:22,895
And, of course, to trust to custody the money and initiate transactions, etcetera.

71
00:04:23,675 --> 00:04:24,975
And this,

72
00:04:25,515 --> 00:04:29,615
this is an enormous privilege that is being granted just by default,

73
00:04:30,075 --> 00:04:30,735
from everyone.

74
00:04:31,515 --> 00:04:32,015
And

75
00:04:32,395 --> 00:04:34,575
so I really came to understand

76
00:04:35,220 --> 00:04:44,840
that this trust might not be as as, as well given as as it actually is. And so when the three year contract was over, the first thing I did was to delete my bank account.

77
00:04:45,140 --> 00:04:50,040
So now for the last almost six years, I don't have a bank account neither for myself nor for my businesses.

78
00:04:51,194 --> 00:04:57,435
Because why why would you give someone this much trust when in the history he has been very much,

79
00:04:58,155 --> 00:05:03,134
not not fulfilling his end of the bargain, so to say. Right? The banking system has has led to numerous

80
00:05:03,490 --> 00:05:03,990
problems,

81
00:05:04,449 --> 00:05:06,169
in the world, I would say. And

82
00:05:06,610 --> 00:05:09,810
and now the beautiful thing with Bitcoin is we actually don't need to trust,

83
00:05:10,610 --> 00:05:12,069
for for many things

84
00:05:12,370 --> 00:05:12,870
anymore,

85
00:05:13,490 --> 00:05:15,750
to a financial institution like a bank.

86
00:05:16,525 --> 00:05:23,585
We can replace that trust with a trust in Bitcoin. And I would argue that this, the trust is well earned with Bitcoin.

87
00:05:23,965 --> 00:05:26,225
And we have a fully audible,

88
00:05:26,845 --> 00:05:35,139
and open source code, right? We see exactly how Bitcoin works and you can analyze it line by line if if you do understand how to code, which I really don't.

89
00:05:35,699 --> 00:05:46,280
But a lot of my good friends whom I trust as well have have reviewed and audited this code. In fact, I've paid developers to to audit the code to make sure that it is doing what what we would anticipate it to do, etcetera.

90
00:05:46,935 --> 00:05:49,675
And and this just means that we have a a monetary network,

91
00:05:50,694 --> 00:05:52,955
where where, you for for yourself

92
00:05:53,335 --> 00:05:54,155
can define,

93
00:05:54,534 --> 00:05:57,835
verify, and enforce the rules of the monetary network

94
00:05:58,215 --> 00:06:06,010
and that each and every transaction in this network has followed the rules that were set out at the beginning. Right? It is a a quite incredible mechanism

95
00:06:06,470 --> 00:06:07,210
where where

96
00:06:07,750 --> 00:06:15,205
you you trust the software to to do what what it does, right? But but ultimately, the software is designed so that you verify for yourself,

97
00:06:15,664 --> 00:06:18,724
ultimately everything that's happening in this monetary network. And,

98
00:06:19,025 --> 00:06:27,444
now sure, just making base money transactions, just, sending around pieces of gold, so to say, is far from the entire scope of service that a bank provides.

99
00:06:28,490 --> 00:06:37,710
And I definitely see that banking as an institution per se, as a business per se, is extremely valuable and will even be valuable in the future with Bitcoin,

100
00:06:38,170 --> 00:06:39,470
being more broadly adopted.

101
00:06:40,264 --> 00:06:49,564
It's just that not you won't trust your bank with the same way that that you do right now. You don't have to trust your bank, to hold your money and and to settle your transactions.

102
00:06:50,185 --> 00:06:50,344
And,

103
00:06:51,544 --> 00:07:08,230
and this is just a big change in in how we trust people and and whom we trust people and how do we choose whom to trust. Because there's a lot of new verification technologies out there that really make it possible to be much more careful in in whom you

104
00:07:08,635 --> 00:07:11,535
gift with your trust. And I think I mean, that is absolutely

105
00:07:12,555 --> 00:07:13,615
one of the areas

106
00:07:13,995 --> 00:07:21,455
of exploration that I'm I'm committed to pursue. And I think for the reasons you point out, there has been this tremendous imbalance

107
00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,100
that these let's just pick on financial institutions, banks, and the rest.

108
00:07:26,639 --> 00:07:27,860
They have

109
00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,820
had most of the cards, had most of the tools, had most of the power for certain,

110
00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:39,435
and, that's changing. And I think then, Max, what would you say have been the most painful parts of

111
00:07:40,615 --> 00:07:43,595
of deleting your bank account, embracing Bitcoin fully?

112
00:07:44,375 --> 00:07:48,315
You know, what has been most challenging? What's been most liberating? Yeah. The,

113
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:57,180
the challenging part might be that that sometimes things take a little bit longer, and and are a bit more difficult than otherwise. You know, when people actually have a bank card,

114
00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:07,345
it feels almost like a superpower to me, you know, because you can just always buy stuff from anyone ultimately because everyone accepts bank transfer or credit card payments, these days.

115
00:08:07,725 --> 00:08:09,905
And so I had to be much more,

116
00:08:10,685 --> 00:08:20,790
deliberate with whom do I actually want to work with, right? Because, just many merchants don't take the currency that I prefer to use. And so that's a bit of an issue. And,

117
00:08:21,830 --> 00:08:30,250
the good thing is though, that there hasn't been anything that I really wanted that I couldn't get. Right? Either by convincing the merchant to take Bitcoin directly

118
00:08:30,884 --> 00:08:46,529
or by working with a proxy merchant, basically. You know, I I pay someone in Bitcoin with the task of, hey, please acquire this good and sell it to me ultimately. So you just add a middleman. Right? And I know Bitcoin is kind of meant to to destroy the middleman, but I do think that in this network of economic activity,

119
00:08:47,149 --> 00:08:47,810
other entrepreneurs

120
00:08:48,750 --> 00:08:50,850
are crucial, right? We're never alone

121
00:08:51,230 --> 00:08:56,370
on an on a lonely island just all by ourselves. That's not how the human experience is. It's inherently,

122
00:08:58,045 --> 00:09:06,945
your system of trusted peers, right, that you have, that you want to collaborate with. And, so there are proxy merchants as one example, ShopInBit,

123
00:09:08,205 --> 00:09:10,385
which in my opinion is a very, trustworthy,

124
00:09:10,845 --> 00:09:16,870
merchant, right, who who has, proper ethics and and understands the value of Bitcoin and and the value of privacy

125
00:09:17,250 --> 00:09:20,930
such that he he you can basically buy anything that you want,

126
00:09:21,490 --> 00:09:22,449
with with this way.

127
00:09:23,089 --> 00:09:26,870
And of course, I still use cash. Right? Cash is king, at least in the fiat world.

128
00:09:27,455 --> 00:09:27,955
And,

129
00:09:28,735 --> 00:09:35,715
that is sometimes though a hassle, especially when you travel a lot. You you show up in a place and you simply don't have the local currency.

130
00:09:36,175 --> 00:09:37,055
And, this,

131
00:09:37,615 --> 00:09:41,800
this then requires you to meet people, which is also fantastic because,

132
00:09:42,340 --> 00:09:47,880
if you hold Bitcoin and you want to acquire some, some fiat paper, well, you're on the easy side of the trade.

133
00:09:48,180 --> 00:09:53,000
There's a lot of people who want to get their hands on Bitcoin and want to get rid of the fiat as soon as possible.

134
00:09:53,485 --> 00:10:05,985
And and so this is a great opportunity to meet people who actually care about protecting themselves and and their wealth with with Bitcoin. So it's a great opportunity to meet new friends. Yes. And I mean, that that ability to or that motivation to localize,

135
00:10:06,579 --> 00:10:08,440
I think, is a big part of

136
00:10:09,220 --> 00:10:11,240
the shift that I hope is coming

137
00:10:11,940 --> 00:10:16,279
away from these centralizing factors to, you know, whether it is,

138
00:10:17,540 --> 00:10:22,875
as as folks that we would probably both know would say, shake your rancher's hand, shake your farmer's hand,

139
00:10:23,415 --> 00:10:31,834
to having the ability wherever you go to reach out to those, as you say, who who want them on the other side of that trade. In a bit more specifics

140
00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:33,740
or more specifically,

141
00:10:34,680 --> 00:10:41,980
Wasabi Wallet. So I'd I'd love for you to to give those who may not know. As I say, those those in the Bitcoin sphere certainly will know,

142
00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:47,394
you and the product well. But for those who don't, please please give us an overview of Wasabi Wallet.

143
00:10:48,014 --> 00:10:51,555
With with it and your focus on privacy tools, I think more generally,

144
00:10:52,334 --> 00:10:53,954
you're you're arming individuals

145
00:10:54,894 --> 00:10:57,394
against mass surveillance. Those are my words, not yours.

146
00:10:58,540 --> 00:11:01,680
What's the biggest challenge people face in reclaiming

147
00:11:02,060 --> 00:11:03,760
financial privacy today,

148
00:11:04,140 --> 00:11:05,280
and in rebalancing

149
00:11:05,900 --> 00:11:06,400
this

150
00:11:07,340 --> 00:11:08,480
imbalance of power

151
00:11:09,180 --> 00:11:19,725
and the dynamics of trust that exist there? Yeah. The the very first feedback that that Satoshi got after publishing the white paper, right, the draft of of, hey. This is the Bitcoin system. This is how it could work.

152
00:11:20,345 --> 00:11:21,565
It was pretty obvious.

153
00:11:22,185 --> 00:11:25,325
And and it resonates with what I said earlier. Right? You verify

154
00:11:25,690 --> 00:11:30,430
every transaction of everyone else in the history of the existence of the money. Right?

155
00:11:30,810 --> 00:11:41,245
That's ridiculous. Right? That that doesn't scale because it isn't private. And if you need to read and review every transaction everyone ever made, first of all, that's a hell of a lot of transactions.

156
00:11:41,704 --> 00:11:48,204
And so that just takes a lot of time. Thankfully, we have computers to do that work for us, but still requires a lot of compute power.

157
00:11:48,745 --> 00:11:52,845
But then also you have the issue that you'll read the transaction of everyone else.

158
00:11:53,240 --> 00:12:06,620
That that's kind of a privacy nightmare, right? Imagine your worst enemy knowing exactly what you spend, when and where and how much and how much money you have left over. Right? This is this is quite a peculiar situation that the Bitcoin protocol,

159
00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:08,445
puts us in.

160
00:12:09,725 --> 00:12:10,125
And,

161
00:12:10,605 --> 00:12:12,385
thankfully, there there are numerous

162
00:12:12,845 --> 00:12:13,345
improvements

163
00:12:13,885 --> 00:12:20,625
of how to be more careful with which information do you reveal about your financial transactions to other people, to third parties.

164
00:12:21,085 --> 00:12:23,025
And there are tricks like, for example,

165
00:12:23,740 --> 00:12:31,120
to use a new Bitcoin address for each time you get paid. And instead of using the same identity to get paid, across time, right,

166
00:12:31,820 --> 00:12:39,055
which does a fair deal, in keeping you more private. And would it be fair to say again, Max, just thinking of those who may not be as deep in this,

167
00:12:39,834 --> 00:12:42,894
it's like the ability to spin up a new checking account

168
00:12:43,595 --> 00:12:44,735
to receive a payment

169
00:12:45,435 --> 00:12:47,370
rather than having this unified ledger well, I shouldn't I shouldn't because we do have the unified

170
00:12:54,890 --> 00:12:56,589
the one bucket of transactional

171
00:12:57,050 --> 00:12:58,750
data in your checking or savings account,

172
00:12:59,529 --> 00:13:06,445
with Bitcoin, we have the ability to spin up new addresses and and and to some degree disconnect. And I know you'll get into more detail about how Wasabi

173
00:13:07,145 --> 00:13:07,725
Wallet further,

174
00:13:08,265 --> 00:13:09,645
aids that that goal.

175
00:13:10,665 --> 00:13:11,485
Yeah. Exactly.

176
00:13:11,865 --> 00:13:20,370
So the the address is is the identifier of of who can spend that money. And it's like your, your, your public key. It's, it's your, your account number, as you said.

177
00:13:20,829 --> 00:13:26,450
And, and if we use the same account number across multiple payments and remember that everyone sees exactly

178
00:13:26,829 --> 00:13:29,250
to which account number does the money get sent,

179
00:13:29,585 --> 00:13:41,045
then, then we anyone can clearly say, hey, this account got paid 10 times in the past and he's now holding a total balance of a hundred Bitcoin or something. And he hasn't spent them for ten years.

180
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,860
And so there seems to be an OG who has quite a lot of Bitcoin and who's still saving them.

181
00:13:46,560 --> 00:13:49,380
And now if, if you, you know, buy,

182
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:56,115
if you, send some money to, to this person, you, you can see the past of their financial transactions as well.

183
00:13:56,915 --> 00:14:03,095
You know, and just assume that if you buy coffee on a coffee store and all of a sudden the barista can can see exactly,

184
00:14:03,395 --> 00:14:13,880
hey, how much how much money does that guy actually have? And that's a that's a bit of a tricky situation that that we're not used to in in the in the legacy system, right? If if you pay with a card,

185
00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:23,235
the barista doesn't know how much money you have and and where you got it from. But in the nature of Bitcoin as a system, he very much can easily find this out.

186
00:14:23,555 --> 00:14:24,855
And that is quite

187
00:14:25,394 --> 00:14:29,175
a harsh difference to the previous systems. And,

188
00:14:30,435 --> 00:14:36,295
this is where Wasabi Wallet ultimately comes in. It's a wallet. So it's a way to generate

189
00:14:36,970 --> 00:14:42,110
new private keys and new addresses, new accounts, so to say, as many as you want. Right?

190
00:14:42,650 --> 00:14:47,150
And to securely and privately find out how much money do you have on these accounts,

191
00:14:47,850 --> 00:15:10,000
which which is another thing where where, again, you, you would need a Bitcoin full node, a software that verifies the entire history of, of the blockchain, of all the transactions that has happened in order to retrieve privately how much money you have. And Wasabi was the first wallet to figure out how we can find out how much money the user has without sending the user's addresses to a third party server.

192
00:15:10,460 --> 00:15:15,200
And so this private balance lookup, so to say, was one of, Wasabi's great inventions.

193
00:15:16,380 --> 00:15:22,505
And, then then further, we want to make sure that those addresses that that we have received money on in the past

194
00:15:22,885 --> 00:15:39,250
can actually now be spent without revealing that that they belong to each other. Right? So let's say one time you get paid by your employer and and the other time you get paid by your mother or or someone, And you maybe don't want your mom to know how much money you actually earn, in in your business. Right?

195
00:15:40,430 --> 00:15:43,970
So how can we spend our entire wallet balance without revealing,

196
00:15:44,670 --> 00:15:47,730
to one party that you've also received this other transaction?

197
00:15:48,404 --> 00:16:00,425
So and again, with Bitcoin, these these threats are not just with the people whom you interact with, the people whom you send money to and the people who pay you. It's also a problem of the entire world can look at these transactions that you're making.

198
00:16:01,530 --> 00:16:04,270
And this is where CoinJoin as a technology comes in.

199
00:16:04,650 --> 00:16:05,470
It's ultimately

200
00:16:06,410 --> 00:16:08,110
a collaborative Bitcoin transaction.

201
00:16:08,730 --> 00:16:12,270
So instead of making a Bitcoin transaction with only one user,

202
00:16:12,650 --> 00:16:15,310
we make a Bitcoin transaction with hundreds of users.

203
00:16:15,705 --> 00:16:22,505
And, and this increases the size of the crowd that we're hiding in, so to say, which is quite a common tactic to improve,

204
00:16:22,905 --> 00:16:23,885
users' privacy.

205
00:16:24,265 --> 00:16:28,685
It's just to, to batch many users together in, in one activity.

206
00:16:29,750 --> 00:16:37,290
And, the third pillar of how Wasabi protects your privacy ultimately is, with the Tor network, a very sophisticated implementation

207
00:16:37,830 --> 00:16:42,490
of using the Tor network to ensure that, again, no two communications

208
00:16:42,870 --> 00:16:45,834
that your wallet does are linked to the same identity.

209
00:16:46,214 --> 00:16:54,875
Where do you, Max, see this going inevitably? And I'll I'll I'll interrupt myself to say, again, for those who may not be familiar with the tools, that

210
00:16:55,255 --> 00:16:59,915
we operate today, as we all know, because it's been hours talking about this, certainly, in a place where

211
00:17:00,420 --> 00:17:02,920
financial institutions, governments, regulators,

212
00:17:04,900 --> 00:17:09,000
assume demand the right to know everything about every transaction and every person.

213
00:17:10,020 --> 00:17:15,080
There are many of us, myself, yourself included, who would argue that that is not the natural state of affairs.

214
00:17:16,304 --> 00:17:19,445
And the tools you're building, the products you contribute to

215
00:17:19,825 --> 00:17:20,325
are

216
00:17:21,345 --> 00:17:22,325
seeking to rebalance.

217
00:17:22,865 --> 00:17:23,365
So

218
00:17:24,225 --> 00:17:25,525
the path we're on,

219
00:17:25,985 --> 00:17:29,284
not being able to necessarily see into the

220
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,900
splintering paths of every regulatory regime that could throw us a curveball,

221
00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:35,420
where are we headed?

222
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:42,460
How private, how, as I'll continue to say, rebalanced is the trust relationship between us

223
00:17:42,815 --> 00:17:44,355
and either financial institutions,

224
00:17:44,655 --> 00:17:46,915
should we choose to interact with them,

225
00:17:47,615 --> 00:17:54,035
or other individuals? So so in short, where are we headed? I think we're heading in a in a tremendously great, trajectory.

226
00:17:54,575 --> 00:17:57,315
If if you would go back twenty years from now,

227
00:17:57,769 --> 00:18:02,669
maybe thirty years, and and you would ask the early cypherpunks, you know, the pioneers of digital privacy,

228
00:18:03,450 --> 00:18:06,350
on on what are the goals? What what would we like to have?

229
00:18:06,730 --> 00:18:10,429
We we would want to have, you know, a secure way of making payments,

230
00:18:10,825 --> 00:18:16,205
in which we have Bitcoin. It will be great if that's private. We have coin joins. We have the Lightning Network. Right?

231
00:18:16,665 --> 00:18:28,240
And and we want to communicate with each other, in a in a private way. Now we have encryption for this since since quite a long time, in, in a way that it cannot be stopped. Now we have, the Noster protocol for this as well.

232
00:18:29,100 --> 00:18:29,840
So just

233
00:18:30,220 --> 00:18:35,279
like the main pillars, the main targets of decipher problems have been achieved. We have anonymous,

234
00:18:35,580 --> 00:18:36,080
resilient

235
00:18:36,460 --> 00:18:36,960
communication,

236
00:18:38,105 --> 00:18:39,645
base money and transactions,

237
00:18:40,105 --> 00:18:41,625
like right now. And,

238
00:18:42,345 --> 00:18:44,365
that's fantastic. On a technological,

239
00:18:45,305 --> 00:18:45,805
front,

240
00:18:46,505 --> 00:18:49,885
we've basically achieved everything that we've set out to achieve.

241
00:18:50,665 --> 00:18:51,165
Now,

242
00:18:52,310 --> 00:18:56,250
technology is not everything, right? Especially when it comes to security technology.

243
00:18:56,950 --> 00:19:02,650
Security technology only works, it can only protect you if the user actually resists an attacker.

244
00:19:02,950 --> 00:19:04,090
If the user

245
00:19:04,405 --> 00:19:07,445
is happy to hand over his data, hand over his money,

246
00:19:07,765 --> 00:19:09,705
to whoever comes knocking ultimately,

247
00:19:10,325 --> 00:19:13,285
then no amount of technology can help you. And,

248
00:19:13,765 --> 00:19:24,520
like an analogy would be you have a couple of bars of gold and you want to protect them well. So you get all the best technology. You get a safe deposit box, you know, big steel walls. You

249
00:19:25,140 --> 00:19:39,495
simply put them in a bunch of cement, make sure they cannot be moved. Right? You hire a couple armed guards with guns and a tank, you know, in front of it to stand in front of it to really make sure nobody gets into it. But then the first person comes along is like, hey, I I'd like to get your gold, please.

250
00:19:40,355 --> 00:19:45,255
And you go, okay. Sure. Right? You put the gun away. You you open the door to the vault,

251
00:19:46,129 --> 00:19:46,909
and voila,

252
00:19:47,690 --> 00:19:48,830
the very substantially

253
00:19:49,210 --> 00:19:50,590
good security technology,

254
00:19:51,210 --> 00:19:54,190
was not able to protect you, because, security

255
00:19:54,649 --> 00:19:56,590
is always a human problem ultimately.

256
00:19:57,049 --> 00:20:00,675
And that's why having the tools is only part of the battle. We need to

257
00:20:01,155 --> 00:20:01,655
instill

258
00:20:02,435 --> 00:20:04,695
a act of resisting an attacker

259
00:20:05,235 --> 00:20:07,895
into the hearts and minds of individuals. And

260
00:20:08,195 --> 00:20:21,650
this is where podcasts like this come in, right? To fight the cultural battle, so to say, to normalize the the act of of protecting your property. And which which I would argue in history has throughout times been more or less prevalent.

261
00:20:22,350 --> 00:20:26,450
And, the the good thing is though that now we have a rebalancing

262
00:20:27,255 --> 00:20:29,595
of the cost to attack and the cost to defend.

263
00:20:29,975 --> 00:20:31,755
And it, is now extremely

264
00:20:32,055 --> 00:20:33,915
cheap to defend yourself,

265
00:20:34,535 --> 00:20:35,835
to a very large extent

266
00:20:36,135 --> 00:20:37,755
such that the, the attack

267
00:20:38,055 --> 00:20:39,755
becomes extremely expensive.

268
00:20:40,490 --> 00:20:43,870
And now we have a way that that millions, billions of people

269
00:20:44,170 --> 00:20:47,470
can profitably protect themselves, even if they're not that wealthy,

270
00:20:47,850 --> 00:20:50,270
and therefore make the cost of, of the attacker

271
00:20:50,570 --> 00:20:57,865
even larger. Right? Because now it's no longer possible to attack millions of people at the same time as is done with DReCNET surveillance.

272
00:20:58,405 --> 00:20:59,465
And so here,

273
00:21:00,085 --> 00:21:01,785
I think we have on a technological,

274
00:21:03,525 --> 00:21:05,785
realm, we basically have won the battle.

275
00:21:06,405 --> 00:21:11,750
And now culture is is downstream of technology. And it might take, you know, a generation

276
00:21:12,370 --> 00:21:13,590
or two to really,

277
00:21:14,210 --> 00:21:20,630
get where we are at, right, to to understand and to appreciate what what this is and, of course, to continue building the technology.

278
00:21:21,385 --> 00:21:25,245
But but ultimately that that cultural mindset will change and shift.

279
00:21:25,865 --> 00:21:34,285
And then finally, politics is downstream of culture. And so we will see a lot of different regulatory approaches to how we deal with these technologies,

280
00:21:35,050 --> 00:21:39,550
and and hopefully in a more sane and and more liberating way. Do you see catalysts

281
00:21:39,930 --> 00:21:42,350
that will accelerate that cultural

282
00:21:43,050 --> 00:21:44,030
shift in adoption,

283
00:21:45,290 --> 00:21:48,270
let's say, as compared to or in conjunction with

284
00:21:48,595 --> 00:21:50,215
winning hearts and minds, education,

285
00:21:51,075 --> 00:21:54,455
the work that you and others do in writing and other media,

286
00:21:55,275 --> 00:21:55,775
are

287
00:21:56,595 --> 00:21:57,335
there catalysts

288
00:21:57,875 --> 00:21:59,415
that you see accelerating

289
00:21:59,715 --> 00:22:01,175
that cultural shift, or

290
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:18,485
do we just need to be patient? I think the a great catalyst is, is an attacker, ultimately. As soon as you feel the pain of an attack or the threat of an attack, you're probably gonna do something about this. And maybe the best example of this is, the in the last couple of years, COVID. I had the

291
00:22:18,785 --> 00:22:23,525
quite draconian crackdown of governments on individual freedoms was substantial.

292
00:22:24,145 --> 00:22:30,065
And a lot of people realized that, Hey, I would like to have at least some inkling of freedom in my life and,

293
00:22:30,625 --> 00:22:32,085
the ability to make choices,

294
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,380
without having the threat of violence hanging over me.

295
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,180
I think this created a lot of anarchists ultimately,

296
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,060
and introduced a lot of people to Bitcoin.

297
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:43,880
So,

298
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:45,180
the, the best,

299
00:22:45,835 --> 00:22:55,695
marketing efforts, for Bitcoin and other freedom technologies is continuous government overreach. And it doesn't seem like they're gonna stop anytime soon. We can base on it, right?

300
00:22:56,875 --> 00:22:58,735
To use a phrase. Well, and that

301
00:22:59,230 --> 00:23:03,010
is, I think, a great segue into something you mentioned, and certainly I'm

302
00:23:03,549 --> 00:23:05,250
a proponent and advocate of

303
00:23:05,789 --> 00:23:10,130
and see a tremendous amount of promise, which is Noster. And so I'd love to chat for a minute, Max,

304
00:23:10,909 --> 00:23:12,610
about where Noster fits

305
00:23:13,555 --> 00:23:16,135
in the array of protocols, freedom technologies

306
00:23:17,555 --> 00:23:18,055
that

307
00:23:18,635 --> 00:23:19,135
will

308
00:23:19,715 --> 00:23:21,255
continue to help us

309
00:23:21,875 --> 00:23:22,375
decentralize

310
00:23:22,915 --> 00:23:24,455
and to shift

311
00:23:24,835 --> 00:23:27,255
more to local and to empowering the individual

312
00:23:27,780 --> 00:23:34,120
And then any other promising protocols or technologies that you see alongside that perhaps others should should pay attention to?

313
00:23:35,140 --> 00:23:36,920
Yeah, Nostr is is a wonderful

314
00:23:37,380 --> 00:23:39,320
set of tools and protocols. It's

315
00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:45,955
it's very similar in essence to PGP, the Pretty Good Privacy Protocol by Phil Zimmerman

316
00:23:46,335 --> 00:23:49,315
in the early nineties or something when this was developed.

317
00:23:49,934 --> 00:23:52,514
It relies on private public key cryptography.

318
00:23:53,100 --> 00:23:55,200
So you can easily create an identity

319
00:23:55,660 --> 00:23:58,400
simply by throwing a couple dice or coins,

320
00:23:58,940 --> 00:24:01,280
to get a random number. That's your identity.

321
00:24:02,059 --> 00:24:04,720
And now you can sign messages, meaning you can,

322
00:24:05,965 --> 00:24:07,805
prove to other people that,

323
00:24:08,445 --> 00:24:14,945
this message has been seen by you and has been authorized by you. Those are cryptographic signatures. Bitcoin uses them as well,

324
00:24:15,325 --> 00:24:18,945
to prove that you have the authority to spend a coin.

325
00:24:19,630 --> 00:24:21,890
And you can also encrypt messages. And so,

326
00:24:22,590 --> 00:24:33,169
I can encrypt the message to Sean's public key such that anyone who has this encrypted ciphertext cannot read it until or unless he has the private key that Sean has generated.

327
00:24:34,165 --> 00:24:35,145
And, so,

328
00:24:36,165 --> 00:24:36,665
PGP

329
00:24:37,045 --> 00:24:38,345
never really took off,

330
00:24:39,125 --> 00:24:45,465
because it was quite cumbersome to use and the software just wasn't there yet. And maybe we didn't have the imagination

331
00:24:46,085 --> 00:24:48,585
of what could actually be done with all of this.

332
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:56,059
And, and then Bitcoin was probably one of the pioneering private public key systems that, that really took off. Right?

333
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,900
And, and so Nostr takes some of those,

334
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,315
principles and, and just puts a unique spin on it. And,

335
00:25:04,034 --> 00:25:04,534
specifically,

336
00:25:05,154 --> 00:25:09,335
the the content of these messages that we're signing and encrypting is now standardized.

337
00:25:09,875 --> 00:25:16,200
Right? Meaning, we have a different standard for making public posts, like a short form tweet. You know?

338
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,860
We have a different standard for blog posts.

339
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:27,580
And we have a different standard for publishing the release of a software. Right? And there is now hundreds, maybe even thousands of different standards

340
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,700
on how to create the signed,

341
00:25:31,815 --> 00:25:32,315
message,

342
00:25:32,695 --> 00:25:36,475
right, and how to interpret it such that we don't just have one application

343
00:25:37,174 --> 00:25:43,115
that deals with all of this. We have hundreds at this point. And nobody can prevent you from creating

344
00:25:43,815 --> 00:25:50,309
a new application that follows one or more of these standards on how to create and interpret these signed messages.

345
00:25:51,770 --> 00:25:52,270
And

346
00:25:52,690 --> 00:25:57,269
this now means we have a, yeah, a liberation of possibilities

347
00:25:57,570 --> 00:25:58,230
for developers

348
00:25:58,745 --> 00:26:04,525
to come up with, with great applications that utilize this private public key cryptography system

349
00:26:05,065 --> 00:26:09,805
in an open manner. Because the, the genius inside is that as soon as we have a signed message,

350
00:26:10,425 --> 00:26:40,335
it does not matter where you have received this message from. If you get it from a trusted server like twitter.com, or if you get it on a USB stick, or if you if someone shouts it at you, just an anonymous person, right? As soon as you have this signed message, you can, without trusting anyone, without trusting the person who gave you this message, you can verify that it was authored by the person with the private key. Otherwise, it could not have been signed. It's a mathematical proof. And again, crucial in the trust paradigm that we're talking about here.

351
00:26:40,794 --> 00:26:43,294
And, and now this means that we can put our messages

352
00:26:43,620 --> 00:26:46,020
not just on one server, like twitter.com,

353
00:26:46,020 --> 00:26:51,559
facebook Com, right? But we can put them on hundreds of servers. You can run a server for yourself.

354
00:26:52,180 --> 00:27:00,164
You can run that server or or a Nostra Relay on your phone, right? It does not matter where these messages are stored and gathered anymore.

355
00:27:00,465 --> 00:27:03,445
As soon as the user gets the message, he can verify by himself

356
00:27:03,904 --> 00:27:04,885
that the authenticity,

357
00:27:05,585 --> 00:27:10,005
is, is valid and which, which is a, a mind blowing shift in, in the security

358
00:27:10,465 --> 00:27:11,365
and, and architectural

359
00:27:11,745 --> 00:27:13,740
design of how to create applications.

360
00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:23,420
And then and so the list of amazing Nostra projects is endless, right? You have the social media experience, like something like Amethyst, for example, or DAMOS.

361
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,325
Similar to Twitter, right? You can create short form posts. People can like them,

362
00:27:29,184 --> 00:27:32,645
and people can send money for them as well. Right? Because,

363
00:27:33,105 --> 00:27:34,645
we can now add metadata

364
00:27:35,505 --> 00:27:36,965
to our cryptographically

365
00:27:37,345 --> 00:27:37,845
signed,

366
00:27:38,465 --> 00:27:41,605
network of nodes. So to say, Hey, this is my Bitcoin address.

367
00:27:42,019 --> 00:27:49,639
You can send me money to. And, and you can attest that someone has sent money, to you. And so now we have the social payment

368
00:27:50,019 --> 00:27:54,120
experience of if you want to reveal that, Hey, I just got paid by this person,

369
00:27:54,905 --> 00:27:56,125
then then you can,

370
00:27:56,585 --> 00:27:58,845
which now also means that we have an additional

371
00:27:59,225 --> 00:27:59,725
signal

372
00:28:00,105 --> 00:28:03,325
for which messages are valuable, which messages are useful.

373
00:28:03,705 --> 00:28:08,400
Those messages who who got paid a lot of Bitcoin for are probably interesting to read.

374
00:28:08,860 --> 00:28:15,520
So this enables us just to get an entirely new set of ways that we can filter and highlight

375
00:28:15,820 --> 00:28:21,375
messages that might be valuable to the end user. And we were basically creating a web of trust

376
00:28:21,835 --> 00:28:22,335
where,

377
00:28:22,795 --> 00:28:25,135
we we have different categories

378
00:28:25,755 --> 00:28:37,320
of this metadata, this information is might be useful to the user. And it's not spam. It is something that the user might want to see. And this might be something like, hey, you're following this user.

379
00:28:37,940 --> 00:28:44,920
So here's the notes that he is sending. Or maybe you follow a friend of that user. Right? So there's one hop of separation.

380
00:28:45,424 --> 00:28:53,924
Right? Or maybe your friends are sending money to the notes of this other user. Maybe you should look at that. Right? All of these design systems are possible now.

381
00:28:54,465 --> 00:29:02,020
And and it goes much more than than just text. Right? You can you can do the same with videos, for example. That's where the Blossom protocol comes in,

382
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:12,900
where you can host large files, you know, not just text, images, videos, etcetera, in a similar architecture where each video file is, is clearly identified by a hash

383
00:29:13,325 --> 00:29:13,825
and,

384
00:29:14,525 --> 00:29:16,625
short fingerprint basically of the data.

385
00:29:17,165 --> 00:29:21,905
And you can sign, you know, and say, Hey, look, this is the data that I'm referring to.

386
00:29:22,525 --> 00:29:31,190
And, we can be sure that every picture that is posted has not been tampered with. And a huge protection against, for example, AI deepfakes that we see nowadays.

387
00:29:32,130 --> 00:29:42,870
But we also have an open marketplace in this. Now you can say that, hey, this is a trusted merchant and here are the products that he is offering and you can securely and directly communicate with him.

388
00:29:44,285 --> 00:29:51,565
You can do the Internet of Things without any, you know, weird Chinese server that that sends all of your, you know,

389
00:29:52,045 --> 00:29:59,490
every time you turn on the light bulb or something, but this gets logged by some third party server. No, this can just be done by you and your relay,

390
00:29:59,790 --> 00:30:03,410
right? That that's all inside your home network. So this,

391
00:30:03,870 --> 00:30:05,970
Nostra is really a pivotal

392
00:30:06,590 --> 00:30:08,370
shifting of the trust spectrum,

393
00:30:09,150 --> 00:30:11,890
by relying a lot more on cryptographic assurances

394
00:30:12,575 --> 00:30:14,835
rather than on a single server

395
00:30:15,295 --> 00:30:27,155
that that we deem is is is the the whole purveyor of the truth, and that can change messages without the end user ultimately knowing. All of these things are are no longer possible with Gnostr, and that's just incredibly exciting.

396
00:30:27,929 --> 00:30:30,029
It is incredibly exciting. I am

397
00:30:30,409 --> 00:30:33,549
hard pressed to say how bullish I am about Nostra. I

398
00:30:34,090 --> 00:30:37,710
you know, Bitcoin is unstoppable money. Nostra is unstoppable communications

399
00:30:38,649 --> 00:30:42,110
in my view. And I think, you know, to your point, whether it's authenticity,

400
00:30:43,115 --> 00:30:43,615
attribution,

401
00:30:44,395 --> 00:30:45,775
the ability to cryptographically

402
00:30:46,315 --> 00:30:46,815
definitively

403
00:30:47,195 --> 00:30:48,255
prove these things,

404
00:30:49,035 --> 00:30:54,735
is incredible. I I don't know if you're probably familiar with Zapstore, Max. Have you It's fantastic. Had a look?

405
00:30:55,195 --> 00:30:56,015
So Zapstore

406
00:30:56,555 --> 00:30:57,055
is

407
00:30:58,020 --> 00:31:01,640
mobile well, actually, I think it's platform agnostic, but it is,

408
00:31:02,340 --> 00:31:02,840
taking

409
00:31:03,220 --> 00:31:04,520
the App Store

410
00:31:05,220 --> 00:31:05,720
and

411
00:31:06,180 --> 00:31:10,200
decentralizing it and using the Nostra web of trust. So

412
00:31:10,545 --> 00:31:15,045
if I were to choose, particularly on Android, I think I'm an iPhone guy at present. But

413
00:31:15,905 --> 00:31:16,965
if I were to

414
00:31:17,985 --> 00:31:24,085
download a random APK, if I were to use one of the various third party non Google affiliated app stores,

415
00:31:24,785 --> 00:31:25,285
maybe

416
00:31:26,059 --> 00:31:26,960
maybe I get

417
00:31:27,260 --> 00:31:31,760
good code. Maybe I get malware. Who knows? Right? And with Zapstore, I have the ability

418
00:31:33,419 --> 00:31:36,240
to see via my web of trust my followers, my followers,

419
00:31:37,419 --> 00:31:40,160
who also trusts that code, who has,

420
00:31:40,940 --> 00:31:41,440
chosen

421
00:31:41,740 --> 00:31:47,515
to to trust that code and that developer. And I I won't do it full justice here. But it it takes the

422
00:31:48,295 --> 00:31:48,795
centralizing

423
00:31:49,415 --> 00:31:51,275
effect of an Apple or a Google

424
00:31:51,735 --> 00:31:56,715
being thou who shalt, you know, validate code and validate apps and declare that it's safe and good for you to install. And it puts it back in the hands of the individual based upon,

425
00:31:59,790 --> 00:32:04,690
install, and it puts it back in the hands of the individual based upon, as you've mentioned, their web of trust. And so I think that's

426
00:32:05,309 --> 00:32:06,530
incredibly powerful.

427
00:32:06,950 --> 00:32:08,130
You know, you you touched

428
00:32:08,510 --> 00:32:10,535
in that, Max, on the

429
00:32:11,715 --> 00:32:17,415
transactional capabilities, be it Zaps to for those who don't know, it's so called value for value. So,

430
00:32:18,195 --> 00:32:23,335
you know, one of the reasons that that reminded me to reach out to you, Max, was some of your posts on Nostr have been,

431
00:32:24,270 --> 00:32:33,890
I've certainly been enjoying them. And I think that there are tremendous distillations. As I say, you know, earlier, you're a triple threat across economics, philosophy, and technology. And so

432
00:32:34,430 --> 00:32:34,930
I

433
00:32:35,390 --> 00:32:36,290
have the ability

434
00:32:36,670 --> 00:32:38,930
to send you Satoshis, to send you

435
00:32:39,535 --> 00:32:45,475
small, fractions of a Bitcoin, which is real money and real value and for the value that I get back. So that's certainly powerful.

436
00:32:45,855 --> 00:32:48,275
But I think more broadly, we're seeing marketplaces

437
00:32:49,055 --> 00:32:50,515
develop. We're seeing,

438
00:32:51,455 --> 00:32:52,355
peer to peer

439
00:32:53,510 --> 00:32:56,970
exchange and trade happening more broadly. And that takes me to

440
00:32:57,510 --> 00:32:58,570
some of your

441
00:32:59,270 --> 00:33:02,330
writing about the second realm and economic freedom.

442
00:33:02,950 --> 00:33:03,450
And

443
00:33:03,830 --> 00:33:09,805
you've talked about and maybe we'll start with, please, you explaining you know, what the second realm is to those who don't know,

444
00:33:10,105 --> 00:33:11,325
a a parallel economy

445
00:33:11,785 --> 00:33:12,685
based on Bitcoin.

446
00:33:13,225 --> 00:33:13,965
And so

447
00:33:14,585 --> 00:33:15,645
for those who

448
00:33:16,105 --> 00:33:16,925
may be

449
00:33:17,705 --> 00:33:19,325
peeking in, peering in,

450
00:33:19,785 --> 00:33:20,285
from

451
00:33:21,410 --> 00:33:22,549
where they are today,

452
00:33:22,850 --> 00:33:24,630
which is using traditional financial institutions,

453
00:33:27,090 --> 00:33:35,510
consuming traditional media, etcetera. But maybe they've got that inkling, as you said. Maybe it was lockdowns. Maybe it was something else that that gave them that inclination to to look.

454
00:33:37,304 --> 00:33:38,684
What practical steps

455
00:33:39,065 --> 00:33:40,125
can individuals

456
00:33:40,745 --> 00:33:41,245
take

457
00:33:42,184 --> 00:33:53,850
to begin to step in to that second realm? So first, what is it, and second, you know, what are some of those early steps that that those who are curious can can take? The second film is a fascinating concept,

458
00:33:54,390 --> 00:33:56,970
really articulated by some of the OG cypherpunks.

459
00:33:57,750 --> 00:33:59,770
You know, talking about PGP earlier,

460
00:34:00,470 --> 00:34:03,690
there was a big fight against PGP from the government, of course. And,

461
00:34:04,215 --> 00:34:09,115
but one way that this fight was won was that we printed the PGP source code on a book

462
00:34:09,415 --> 00:34:16,715
and sent it from America to to Europe and, to to prove that this is not an export of arms. This is simply knowledge being shared.

463
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,060
So guess who received

464
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:24,980
the first book of the PGP source code in Europe was the author of the book, The Second Realm. And,

465
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:27,140
and the book highlights

466
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,300
that there are two realms, right? There is the first realm of corrosion

467
00:34:31,715 --> 00:34:34,855
and and violence, right? The the system of the state ultimately.

468
00:34:35,555 --> 00:34:39,655
And then there's the second realm, which is, as you so nicely said, a parallel economy.

469
00:34:40,195 --> 00:34:43,095
It is where where people meet and and communicate

470
00:34:43,635 --> 00:34:45,895
and and gather and trade,

471
00:34:46,410 --> 00:34:50,109
without the purview of others and without necessarily asking for permission,

472
00:34:50,569 --> 00:34:53,290
simply because they want to help each other. And, and,

473
00:34:54,089 --> 00:34:54,589
the,

474
00:34:54,890 --> 00:34:59,869
this second realm has always existed, right? There, there was always a king who demanded tribute

475
00:35:00,555 --> 00:35:06,734
and always people who were just like, yeah, we're just gonna do it here on the side without the king really knowing about it.

476
00:35:07,115 --> 00:35:08,335
But the system

477
00:35:08,635 --> 00:35:14,734
of, or this parallel culture was really kicked into gear with the advent of, of cyberpunk technologies and, and FreedomTech,

478
00:35:15,270 --> 00:35:21,370
where we have now secure encryption, where we have anonymous communications, where we have, anonymous digital payments.

479
00:35:22,710 --> 00:35:28,010
This means that we can now work on an economy that is much larger, much more sophisticated

480
00:35:28,470 --> 00:35:33,835
than was previously deemed possible. And we can, we can build, entire, you know, huge constructs,

481
00:35:34,375 --> 00:35:37,835
without revealing who the people involved in the trade are.

482
00:35:38,855 --> 00:35:42,795
And so this means that, that we have a way again, to, to establish

483
00:35:43,175 --> 00:35:45,675
more, more freedom in, in the life of, of everyone,

484
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,100
in in a way that's quite difficult to stop, quite expensive to stop.

485
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:51,780
And and simultaneously,

486
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,740
it is easy to use, right? So we decrease the cost of defense and increase the cost of attack.

487
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,120
And so how to participate in in this economy? There's another great,

488
00:36:01,974 --> 00:36:02,795
piece of writing,

489
00:36:03,095 --> 00:36:03,994
called the aristocracy

490
00:36:04,375 --> 00:36:05,035
of action.

491
00:36:05,494 --> 00:36:07,755
And you you don't need to sign up.

492
00:36:08,055 --> 00:36:21,400
You don't need to write a petition. You don't need to ask for permission to be part of the second drill. You just do it. Right? As soon as you help your friends and family, as soon as you interact with your neighbor on a peaceful, on a voluntary,

493
00:36:22,260 --> 00:36:22,760
way,

494
00:36:23,060 --> 00:36:31,775
you're a part of the second realm. You're living in in anarchy where we value our contracts, where we value the ethic of of providing work and solving problems.

495
00:36:32,795 --> 00:36:35,615
There is that's all that's needed. Just be useful,

496
00:36:36,395 --> 00:36:38,494
and, and, you know, start a side business.

497
00:36:40,155 --> 00:36:42,474
Get some chicken and sell the eggs. No.

498
00:36:43,035 --> 00:36:45,295
Make your own soap and sell it on Oster.

499
00:36:46,070 --> 00:36:50,570
Or, you know, produce some leather wallets or or whatever it is.

500
00:36:50,950 --> 00:37:05,454
Of course, write software. Right? Software development is is a fantastic trade in in the second realm because it is being provided online. It can be shipped to billions of people at the press of a button and the signing of a Zap story event, right, for release. So there there,

501
00:37:05,914 --> 00:37:08,075
there's really it's it's really quite,

502
00:37:08,555 --> 00:37:09,535
easy nowadays,

503
00:37:09,914 --> 00:37:14,494
to be part of of the second realm and and to live a life that's that's just a bit freer.

504
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:22,540
And another great realization is that you don't need to be all in, to, to the freedom realm. In fact, that might be quite risky.

505
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:23,400
Right? There,

506
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:31,615
is this concept of the parallel ne polis, right? The parallel economy, the parallel society, so to say. And this was penned by, Vaclav Bender.

507
00:37:32,235 --> 00:37:35,455
And, he was a freedom fighter in the Czechoslovak,

508
00:37:37,275 --> 00:37:38,015
in Czechoslovakia

509
00:37:38,395 --> 00:37:40,095
during the Russian or Soviet occupation.

510
00:37:41,195 --> 00:37:43,615
And he realized that if you're outright,

511
00:37:44,460 --> 00:37:44,960
hostile

512
00:37:45,340 --> 00:37:46,480
and disobedient

513
00:37:47,340 --> 00:37:50,880
against the state, then you simply get put to the Gulag. Right?

514
00:37:51,980 --> 00:37:55,680
And you die, you know, or and your kids or your cousins,

515
00:37:56,235 --> 00:38:00,735
will never be able to go to university, right, because they were part of the family of of a descent,

516
00:38:01,115 --> 00:38:01,615
and,

517
00:38:01,995 --> 00:38:11,455
that simply was not tolerated. So to to be completely in the second realm, so to say, and publicly so, outright so, is extremely dangerous in some situations.

518
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:17,180
And, and so what you can do is, is to still be part of the first realm, right? To have in your little business

519
00:38:17,559 --> 00:38:19,819
the big sign of workers of the world unite.

520
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:30,005
Now, even though you know it's, it's a bullshit lie and everyone else knows that, that it's a bullshit lie. And, but you still do it because if you don't, you go to the Gulag. Right?

521
00:38:31,265 --> 00:38:31,765
However,

522
00:38:32,625 --> 00:38:47,420
in the evenings, you know, you, you take your kids out of the public school and you actually teach them about logic and reason and poetry and the beautiful things that, that free minds can, can come up with. And that is the parallel economy. It's, it's the underground,

523
00:38:48,279 --> 00:38:48,779
speakeasies,

524
00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:53,660
you know, where you gather with, with free minds and share ideas and, and,

525
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,339
shape a reality that you would actually like to be part of.

526
00:38:59,135 --> 00:39:09,555
And since there is no exclusion to be entirely in the first realm or entirely in the second realm, this is also a great opportunity for one of the business models we've mentioned earlier, that of the proxy merchant.

527
00:39:10,050 --> 00:39:14,710
Because the the second realm is is rather limited in size compared to the first one,

528
00:39:15,330 --> 00:39:21,510
it it's a great business to put goods from the second realm into the first from the first into into the second,

529
00:39:21,810 --> 00:39:25,815
and and play this arbitrage game ultimately. So this is one of the many,

530
00:39:26,535 --> 00:39:28,715
good businesses that that is possible nowadays.

531
00:39:29,175 --> 00:39:30,555
Right? Like, again,

532
00:39:30,855 --> 00:39:32,234
you want to get more Bitcoin.

533
00:39:32,695 --> 00:39:34,234
There are people who have Bitcoin

534
00:39:34,535 --> 00:39:36,635
and don't have bank accounts, as one example,

535
00:39:36,935 --> 00:39:44,020
and want to get other stuff. So you buy the other stuff for them with with your fiat, and then you sell it to them for Bitcoin.

536
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:51,940
That is one of the the great business models that's possible. Tremendous. And and I think to your point, it can sound and again, I'm imagining

537
00:39:52,974 --> 00:39:56,275
those perhaps new to the ideas even of of of Bitcoin.

538
00:39:57,055 --> 00:39:58,035
It can sound

539
00:39:58,815 --> 00:39:59,954
outrageous, rebellious,

540
00:40:02,655 --> 00:40:07,635
anarchistic, certainly, which, you know, we would argue, I think, by the academic proper definition, it is.

541
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,860
But I think it also, to me, tell me if you see it differently,

542
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:24,484
is, again, a return to localism. It's a return to community. It's a return to, you know, I am as guilty as anyone for the number of boxes that show up at the front door from Amazon. We're we're trying to get better at that. But I

543
00:40:24,824 --> 00:40:25,324
think,

544
00:40:25,984 --> 00:40:28,484
in large part, this is enabling individuals

545
00:40:28,785 --> 00:40:29,285
to,

546
00:40:30,224 --> 00:40:32,884
conduct commerce, to trade, to engage, to

547
00:40:34,144 --> 00:40:35,525
be less reliant

548
00:40:35,904 --> 00:40:42,400
on, again, centralizing factors and and to be more connected and engaged with their local communities, which is,

549
00:40:42,780 --> 00:40:44,640
I think, about as wholesome as it gets.

550
00:40:45,500 --> 00:40:46,580
But Yeah. Exactly.

551
00:40:47,020 --> 00:40:50,000
There are those who push back. There are those who will push back against it.

552
00:40:51,315 --> 00:40:58,214
Yeah. Anarchy is quite a scary sounding word. But ultimately, it's about helping your neighbors, right, of being useful to others.

553
00:40:59,315 --> 00:41:03,095
It just means, anarkon, comes from the Greek, meaning without,

554
00:41:03,635 --> 00:41:05,015
and rulers. Right?

555
00:41:05,559 --> 00:41:12,380
So, you know, simply as soon as two people meet and and, you know, have have a good time and and shake hands and walk away peacefully,

556
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,500
that's anarchy. It's it's as simple as that. Fantastic.

557
00:41:16,599 --> 00:41:20,140
So so we're I'm moving us backwards, I guess you could say, from

558
00:41:20,755 --> 00:41:21,255
technology,

559
00:41:22,515 --> 00:41:23,015
economics,

560
00:41:23,715 --> 00:41:28,295
and now philosophy. And so you think that we were gonna get away without talking about praxeology?

561
00:41:29,075 --> 00:41:29,575
So

562
00:41:30,035 --> 00:41:34,695
and and human action. And so your your work, you'll you'll correct me, is informed by praxeology,

563
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,100
the study of purposeful human behavior.

564
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:40,260
How does this philosophy

565
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:41,780
guide your development

566
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,940
of the tools that you build and that you contribute to, like Wasabi Wallet?

567
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,944
And what does it teach us about

568
00:41:49,325 --> 00:41:51,505
the whys and the hows of

569
00:41:51,964 --> 00:41:52,464
trusting

570
00:41:52,924 --> 00:41:53,825
code tools

571
00:41:54,204 --> 00:41:56,224
that which can be observed and studied,

572
00:41:56,845 --> 00:41:58,145
pardon me, over institutions?

573
00:41:58,605 --> 00:42:00,845
Yeah. That's that's a fantastic question. And and,

574
00:42:01,740 --> 00:42:07,200
I mean, the big question is what is money, right? And why do we use it? And is it good technology?

575
00:42:08,060 --> 00:42:12,560
Is it useful? Right? And I would argue that most schools of economic thought

576
00:42:13,020 --> 00:42:15,520
simply cannot answer this question adequately.

577
00:42:16,715 --> 00:42:17,375
But praxeology

578
00:42:17,755 --> 00:42:28,735
and and the Austrian tradition very much can. And this goes back to Karl Menger, and Ludwig van Mises and and Rothbard and and Hoppe, who who really articulate the the immense

579
00:42:29,195 --> 00:42:31,050
value and and utility of money

580
00:42:31,450 --> 00:42:34,510
and really give profound and deep reasonings for it.

581
00:42:35,290 --> 00:42:41,710
And, and also the, and specifically, Jorquita Holzmann is great on this, on the ethics of money production,

582
00:42:42,010 --> 00:42:42,510
right?

583
00:42:43,565 --> 00:42:45,025
On the ethical quality

584
00:42:45,405 --> 00:42:47,265
of, of different monetary systems.

585
00:42:48,125 --> 00:42:50,625
And, if a fiat monopoly money,

586
00:42:51,085 --> 00:42:53,345
is, is a good thing or, or,

587
00:42:53,805 --> 00:42:54,625
and versus

588
00:42:55,325 --> 00:42:59,025
a free competitive, competitive money like Bitcoin or gold.

589
00:42:59,550 --> 00:43:01,890
You know, which of these systems is preferable?

590
00:43:02,590 --> 00:43:06,690
Which of these systems lead to better outcomes for its participants?

591
00:43:07,310 --> 00:43:15,474
And, and, here again, praxeology is just absolutely spot on. Right? As soon as as you have a monopoly on who can produce

592
00:43:15,934 --> 00:43:17,315
the monetary units,

593
00:43:18,494 --> 00:43:26,434
then you introduce senior rush. Right? This is where you can print money at a profit, ultimately. It costs the US government, what, 17¢

594
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:27,800
to produce a $100

595
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:28,920
note. And,

596
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:37,100
maybe by now it's 25¢ because even printing money gets more expensive, printing paper gets more expensive, right? Pushing the money goes up in cost.

597
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:46,585
Yeah. And that's why ultimately they stopped printing the or creating the one cent coin, right? Because Or are thinking to because it costs them, what, 20¢

598
00:43:46,585 --> 00:43:48,525
to produce the 1¢ coin, a penny?

599
00:43:48,905 --> 00:43:54,750
That's simply not profitable anymore, right? So there's no senior rush here. No gain for printing mine.

600
00:43:55,630 --> 00:43:57,250
Money. And as soon as you have that,

601
00:43:57,550 --> 00:44:07,890
you, you, you mess with the supply and demand as a concept. Right? People demand more things because they don't have to pay the full dollar for a good. Right? They only have to pay

602
00:44:08,265 --> 00:44:11,484
2¢ on the dollar or whatever percentage it is,

603
00:44:11,865 --> 00:44:13,404
because they can print it more,

604
00:44:13,865 --> 00:44:16,204
cheaply than than they can sell it for.

605
00:44:16,505 --> 00:44:19,724
And and this leads to all types of distortions in in the market,

606
00:44:20,184 --> 00:44:20,684
specifically,

607
00:44:21,620 --> 00:44:22,120
malinvestments.

608
00:44:22,580 --> 00:44:24,440
Right? So we invest in projects

609
00:44:24,820 --> 00:44:34,840
that are worse than they otherwise would have been. Projects that take longer to consume, projects that are more complex. Hayek would say projects that are more roundabout in their production stages.

610
00:44:35,365 --> 00:44:36,825
Right? And simultaneously,

611
00:44:37,925 --> 00:44:38,985
we overconsume,

612
00:44:39,285 --> 00:44:43,145
right? We order a bunch of stuff from Amazon that we probably don't really need,

613
00:44:43,525 --> 00:44:46,185
just because it's so, you know, easily available

614
00:44:46,565 --> 00:44:56,490
and we can just click a button and, hey, we you know, didn't really have to work hard to earn that money, so why not spend it and and have a bit of a good time? Right? And those two forces together, the malinvestment

615
00:44:56,950 --> 00:44:57,850
and the overconsumption,

616
00:44:58,470 --> 00:45:01,290
leads to a depletion of actually scarce resources.

617
00:45:01,635 --> 00:45:07,175
And we only have this number of steel, of concrete, of wood, etcetera, in the economy.

618
00:45:07,875 --> 00:45:10,055
And if we keep building houses and skyscrapers

619
00:45:10,515 --> 00:45:12,855
that are getting bigger and bigger, and simultaneously,

620
00:45:13,315 --> 00:45:16,375
you know, we're burning a lot of wood to heat our house, etcetera,

621
00:45:17,780 --> 00:45:23,400
resources run out. And and this leads to the bust, right, where we simply cannot finish

622
00:45:23,780 --> 00:45:25,480
the construction of a building,

623
00:45:25,780 --> 00:45:31,935
not because we wouldn't like to, but because we don't have the raw materials anymore. We don't have the resources, including human time,

624
00:45:32,655 --> 00:45:37,555
to to finish the goods. Right? And and, because we started too many projects at once, ultimately.

625
00:45:38,095 --> 00:45:39,635
That is the bust period,

626
00:45:40,415 --> 00:45:45,955
that that arises from from having seen a rash on the money, from having a monopoly on who can print the money.

627
00:45:46,790 --> 00:45:50,170
And, this this is such a devastating

628
00:45:51,110 --> 00:45:53,050
cost for humanity. It's it's

629
00:45:53,430 --> 00:45:53,930
unbelievable.

630
00:45:54,310 --> 00:45:55,050
It's such

631
00:45:55,430 --> 00:45:56,970
a monumental, such a huge

632
00:45:57,350 --> 00:46:01,175
number of waste, of destruction and missed opportunity

633
00:46:01,715 --> 00:46:07,815
that it's so painful to think where we could have been if we wouldn't have stolen so much,

634
00:46:08,115 --> 00:46:11,415
so much over the last hundred, a thousand years.

635
00:46:11,980 --> 00:46:12,300
It

636
00:46:12,780 --> 00:46:16,480
it's, it's just heartbreaking, you know? So this is where

637
00:46:17,020 --> 00:46:26,734
really proxyology gives you an a reason to, to care, right? Because it explains to you where, where we could have been. What are the un the unseen, the unrealized

638
00:46:27,675 --> 00:46:29,135
capacity or capabilities

639
00:46:29,435 --> 00:46:30,175
of humankind?

640
00:46:31,675 --> 00:46:38,255
And once you get that, you realize that it's of utmost of like, you know, human extinction level importance

641
00:46:38,990 --> 00:46:43,410
that, that we fix the money ahead and, and that we stop these institutionalized

642
00:46:43,869 --> 00:46:49,970
systems of theft that, that have crept in and have been enforced for, for way too long, way too long.

643
00:46:50,270 --> 00:46:50,770
And,

644
00:46:51,150 --> 00:46:54,049
this is I would argue, forgive me, Max, that

645
00:46:55,175 --> 00:46:58,075
what you just said to me is the crux of it, which is

646
00:46:58,855 --> 00:47:02,075
and I appreciate the praxeology is is deserving

647
00:47:02,375 --> 00:47:06,315
of a a series of lectures, not a not a fifteen minute conversation. But

648
00:47:07,690 --> 00:47:11,150
but you'll you'll correct me that it is a lens through which

649
00:47:12,330 --> 00:47:14,430
we can properly see

650
00:47:15,770 --> 00:47:17,630
that which these institutions

651
00:47:18,410 --> 00:47:19,790
have done, have stolen,

652
00:47:20,365 --> 00:47:25,425
have corrupted, and therefore why it is worth, back to our our conversation earlier,

653
00:47:25,885 --> 00:47:27,105
it's worth investing

654
00:47:27,565 --> 00:47:29,425
the effort, the time, the energy,

655
00:47:30,125 --> 00:47:31,425
the cognitive dissonance

656
00:47:32,045 --> 00:47:34,305
to adopt things like Bitcoin and Oster.

657
00:47:34,980 --> 00:47:36,600
Could you speak to that a bit?

658
00:47:37,620 --> 00:47:38,120
Yeah.

659
00:47:38,580 --> 00:47:48,015
Absolutely. Right? We when when you see the the cost and of the problem, right, specifically money printing, but but other government intervention as well,

660
00:47:49,055 --> 00:47:52,355
then then that's that's a lot of pain. Right? That's a lot of fear.

661
00:47:53,214 --> 00:47:57,795
And and that's a distressing situation, right, when you realize that the cost,

662
00:47:58,255 --> 00:48:09,170
and you might not see a way out. And then and here is, is where the hope of the cypherpunks, you know, that, that glimmer of hope at the horizon of, hey, we actually can build a better world,

663
00:48:09,630 --> 00:48:13,330
where theft becomes unprofitable, where printing money becomes unprofitable.

664
00:48:14,025 --> 00:48:14,525
And,

665
00:48:14,984 --> 00:48:21,164
and this gives us hope of of where we could be in the future. And and those two things are are in combination,

666
00:48:21,545 --> 00:48:22,765
extremely motivation.

667
00:48:23,145 --> 00:48:29,724
Right? When when you have the fear of the systems that we have created in the past and at the real cost that they produce.

668
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:35,620
And on the other side, the hope of a real possibility of of creating new systems

669
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,180
that don't suffer of the same flaws.

670
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,340
That just means you you're gonna work your ass off once you make that realization.

671
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:46,875
And, this was certainly the case for myself. I've never been more productive,

672
00:48:48,135 --> 00:48:53,015
than in those last couple of years where I really have made this connection and realize of,

673
00:48:53,575 --> 00:48:56,795
the extent of this. And I see it in a lot of my peers,

674
00:48:57,495 --> 00:48:58,715
that people care

675
00:48:59,289 --> 00:48:59,789
extremely,

676
00:49:00,410 --> 00:49:01,869
to to fix the world,

677
00:49:02,170 --> 00:49:02,670
and

678
00:49:02,970 --> 00:49:06,269
and have an actionable plan on how to achieve that.

679
00:49:06,650 --> 00:49:09,069
Right? That is a dangerous combination.

680
00:49:09,849 --> 00:49:12,910
Because not just are we motivated to work overtime nonstop,

681
00:49:13,665 --> 00:49:17,525
but we're not wasting our time on on strategies misapplied.

682
00:49:17,985 --> 00:49:23,845
We actually have a quite clear cut on how to reach the top of the mountain, and we're just running as hard as possible.

683
00:49:24,305 --> 00:49:26,005
And and that is exhilarating

684
00:49:26,545 --> 00:49:27,989
to work at. And,

685
00:49:28,430 --> 00:49:32,849
so that's just my open invitation to to anyone who starts to glimpse,

686
00:49:33,549 --> 00:49:45,905
the the the pain and and the hope that that we have in front of us, to come join us and run up the hill. Perfect. Perfect, bridge to what I'd like to to discuss in in closing with you, Max, which is,

687
00:49:46,365 --> 00:49:48,385
I think, again, you're uniquely

688
00:49:49,244 --> 00:49:49,744
qualified

689
00:49:50,685 --> 00:49:51,185
to

690
00:49:52,285 --> 00:49:56,465
offer suggestions, advice in this regard. I believe I recall that you,

691
00:49:57,050 --> 00:49:57,550
mentioned

692
00:49:58,410 --> 00:49:59,790
perhaps it was Peter McCormick's,

693
00:50:00,250 --> 00:50:02,670
conversation that you began your entrepreneurial

694
00:50:03,130 --> 00:50:05,070
path at 15, I think it was.

695
00:50:05,770 --> 00:50:09,950
I think it was even earlier than that. My first job was was bringing out the newspaper.

696
00:50:10,250 --> 00:50:16,505
I think I was nine or 10. I don't recall at the moment. I robbed you of a few years. It was a hundred. And so you've been at it.

697
00:50:16,825 --> 00:50:18,905
And as I say, you you've you've got,

698
00:50:19,225 --> 00:50:30,690
and I'll be sure, of course, in the show notes to make sure everyone is aware of of the various projects that you've built, contributed to, led. And so with that, with your history as an entrepreneur, your history as a builder,

699
00:50:32,430 --> 00:50:38,849
as someone who understands the the economics and the the philosophical impact of of where we're headed, I think you and I both assume

700
00:50:39,635 --> 00:50:41,255
more so believe deeply

701
00:50:41,795 --> 00:50:45,815
that we are headed toward this future that that I think you've eloquently laid out.

702
00:50:46,434 --> 00:50:49,335
How should a business leader, founder,

703
00:50:49,714 --> 00:50:50,214
CXO,

704
00:50:50,915 --> 00:50:53,015
who again is peeking over the fence,

705
00:50:53,555 --> 00:50:54,375
how should they

706
00:50:55,809 --> 00:50:56,309
rethink

707
00:50:57,170 --> 00:50:59,349
their business models, their operations,

708
00:51:00,770 --> 00:51:05,270
on the topic of trust, perhaps most pertinently their customer relationships,

709
00:51:06,450 --> 00:51:09,750
to thrive in this future that, as I said at the outset, you live in

710
00:51:10,105 --> 00:51:18,045
and that you're building toward? Well, if if your if your business relies on coercion, right, on on on forcing people to to use your service,

711
00:51:18,665 --> 00:51:21,165
then anticipate that you're gonna lose customers,

712
00:51:21,865 --> 00:51:25,325
especially when a freer alternative to to your service

713
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,339
arises and becomes profitable to provide. Right? And,

714
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:31,540
don't take this as a as a threat.

715
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:34,099
Take it as an opportunity,

716
00:51:35,119 --> 00:51:38,819
because there there are ways to to make money, to make a lot of money,

717
00:51:39,395 --> 00:51:39,895
without

718
00:51:40,595 --> 00:51:51,095
sacrificing your users. Right? You make money not because people are forced to work with you. You make money because you solve problems for others. And there's a hell of a lot of problems to be solved out there,

719
00:51:51,395 --> 00:51:56,250
in in basically any business. So just be useful, you know, be helpful to others,

720
00:51:56,869 --> 00:51:58,650
and make that the core

721
00:51:58,950 --> 00:52:04,650
ethos of the business rather than how can we exploit our users the most in the next three months.

722
00:52:05,030 --> 00:52:05,930
Right? See

723
00:52:06,309 --> 00:52:09,210
how you can be part of a multi generational

724
00:52:09,795 --> 00:52:12,775
solution to to extremely large problems.

725
00:52:13,635 --> 00:52:17,015
And and that will will be the biggest moats that you have,

726
00:52:17,555 --> 00:52:18,055
ultimately.

727
00:52:18,994 --> 00:52:22,135
And and utilize the latest cutting edge technologies

728
00:52:22,660 --> 00:52:23,400
at FreedomTech

729
00:52:23,700 --> 00:52:25,480
is incredible. It it's

730
00:52:25,940 --> 00:52:39,105
it's mind blowing of of what really is possible at this moment. With with Bitcoin, obviously. So I mean, if if you're not holding Bitcoin as a as a treasury, then what what are you doing? Right? You you Michael Saylor would like to have a word with you.

731
00:52:39,484 --> 00:52:39,984
Exactly.

732
00:52:40,845 --> 00:52:43,825
And the fifteen plus years of of track record of of Bitcoin

733
00:52:44,285 --> 00:52:51,880
just outperforming and everything else. Right? And and maybe, like, if if your hurdle rate is still the S and P 500,

734
00:52:52,099 --> 00:52:54,920
if if you aim to perform 10

735
00:52:55,140 --> 00:52:58,520
every year, right, and and make that money for for your investors,

736
00:52:58,900 --> 00:53:06,444
then I I hate to break it to you, but but you're losing money because your investors could have just bought Bitcoin and did nothing. Right? Just hold base money

737
00:53:06,744 --> 00:53:08,525
without any counterparty risk,

738
00:53:08,905 --> 00:53:21,200
without the fear that, you know, the manager runs away with the money or does some stupid investment decisions. None of that. And you would have made a % per year. Right? So so Bitcoin is the real hurdle rate. That's what you need to outperform

739
00:53:21,500 --> 00:53:27,520
for your investors to be happy in the long run. And and so the easiest way to outperform Bitcoin is simply to hold Bitcoin.

740
00:53:28,060 --> 00:53:29,595
So that you at least break even.

741
00:53:30,075 --> 00:53:32,494
So so that's, an important first step.

742
00:53:32,955 --> 00:53:37,375
And then really be be careful and cautious with how you allocate your resources.

743
00:53:37,675 --> 00:53:45,375
Because again, we've printed so much money in the last thousand years, a hundred years, especially, ten years, especially. Right? It's incredible how much money was printed.

744
00:53:46,050 --> 00:54:05,415
And this means that everyone is being tricked, right? And you're no exception to it. You've made investments and consumptions in the past that were absolutely stupid, and you should not have done that, right? But you were tricked by a broken monetary system to think that that was a profitable thing. It was profitable on paper, denominated and the hyperinflating currency. Yes.

745
00:54:06,035 --> 00:54:08,615
But but it's not in a sound monetary system.

746
00:54:08,995 --> 00:54:14,055
And so the sooner you realize that and you stop the frugal spending and malinvestment,

747
00:54:15,180 --> 00:54:16,140
you're gonna,

748
00:54:16,619 --> 00:54:18,560
make, make new heights in outperforming

749
00:54:19,260 --> 00:54:20,720
and generating a return.

750
00:54:21,900 --> 00:54:25,359
So ultimately this isn't really rocket science, you know, be useful,

751
00:54:25,900 --> 00:54:30,079
save your money, only invest what you can actually do in, into

752
00:54:30,435 --> 00:54:33,335
profitable ventures that that return more than than you've spent.

753
00:54:34,115 --> 00:54:36,215
And and, you know, those very simple,

754
00:54:37,235 --> 00:54:38,215
business and accounting,

755
00:54:39,155 --> 00:54:40,055
obvious points,

756
00:54:40,835 --> 00:54:48,280
are are absolutely valid. And they become even more valid when when you apply them with the lens of of Bitcoin. Huge.

757
00:54:49,300 --> 00:54:50,760
In addition to that,

758
00:54:52,340 --> 00:54:53,080
are there

759
00:54:53,460 --> 00:54:56,975
if we if we the the money is the thing for certain.

760
00:54:57,435 --> 00:55:04,415
And as you say, if it's not part of your treasury strategy, then then you're losing. Other freedom technologies, be it Noster or other,

761
00:55:05,195 --> 00:55:09,215
are there put you put you on the spot a bit here, but are there categories of opportunity

762
00:55:10,180 --> 00:55:11,240
that you see

763
00:55:12,020 --> 00:55:15,960
if in the scenario that we see playing out, there's an increasing

764
00:55:17,220 --> 00:55:19,640
breakdown of centralized entities? You know,

765
00:55:20,100 --> 00:55:22,920
ex Twitter undergoes massive DDoS attack.

766
00:55:23,465 --> 00:55:28,445
Those of us on Nostra are happily communicating, you know, and and admittedly our small sphere,

767
00:55:28,745 --> 00:55:29,885
but we think growing.

768
00:55:30,345 --> 00:55:30,845
So

769
00:55:32,025 --> 00:55:32,765
are there

770
00:55:34,505 --> 00:55:35,885
shifts of that nature

771
00:55:36,185 --> 00:55:37,165
that are coming,

772
00:55:38,190 --> 00:55:43,090
that are disruptive for certain, and that you see opening up perhaps other opportunities

773
00:55:43,550 --> 00:55:49,250
in addition to hold the right money, hold sound money? Yeah. There there's a lot of useful business. Right?

774
00:55:49,895 --> 00:55:53,355
Always has been and always will be. Humans have a lot of problems. We're very,

775
00:55:53,655 --> 00:55:55,675
troubled creatures, so to say,

776
00:55:56,295 --> 00:56:01,355
which sucks to one extent because, well, we have to suffer through the problems. But on the other hand, it's a huge opportunity,

777
00:56:01,974 --> 00:56:04,714
to provide entrepreneurial services and fix those problems.

778
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:11,380
Food, you know, that's, that's a big, big industry. And it got completely wrecked,

779
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:12,340
absolutely

780
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:13,940
incredibly wrecked,

781
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:18,580
in, in the last, you know, hundred years again since the money printer has been going.

782
00:56:19,825 --> 00:56:22,165
So produce real food, you know, not overproduced

783
00:56:23,265 --> 00:56:25,365
toxic chemical bullshit, but

784
00:56:25,905 --> 00:56:28,645
sell beef jerky, you know, beef and salt,

785
00:56:29,105 --> 00:56:32,485
dry it, and that's done. That's that's all you need for for a proper product.

786
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,900
And, and, you know, that's a massive, massive industry.

787
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:38,300
The healthcare system obviously,

788
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:43,820
is, is primarily designed to, to make us sick and to keep us patient as a patient,

789
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:47,500
and, and to keep buying more and more medicines and expensive treatments.

790
00:56:49,244 --> 00:56:51,345
Provide services that make people healthy.

791
00:56:52,045 --> 00:56:53,325
That's like, you know,

792
00:56:54,525 --> 00:57:00,545
people don't like to die and people don't like to be sick. So that's, again, another evergreen opportunity to provide,

793
00:57:00,950 --> 00:57:05,210
very valuable products that will be bought like crazy. If you have a a nontoxic,

794
00:57:06,069 --> 00:57:06,970
actually healing,

795
00:57:07,829 --> 00:57:09,849
technologies, that that's massive. Right?

796
00:57:10,549 --> 00:57:12,890
The banking, I would say as well. Like, yeah,

797
00:57:13,325 --> 00:57:19,425
we don't we don't like banks at the moment because they are creatures of the state and and crony and and heavily involved in the theft.

798
00:57:19,885 --> 00:57:22,065
But they don't have to be. Banking is a beautiful,

799
00:57:22,605 --> 00:57:25,265
and ethical venture. I think Marie Rothbard,

800
00:57:25,970 --> 00:57:29,589
is excellent on this point. The Mystery of Banking, a phenomenal book,

801
00:57:30,210 --> 00:57:39,269
that goes under all the numerous ways that banks can be useful, right? So provide banking services on top of Bitcoin, right? We're starting to see that slowly,

802
00:57:39,885 --> 00:57:45,585
with the BitCredit protocol, by the way. It's a bill of exchange protocol on top of Bitcoin and Nostr and eCash.

803
00:57:47,005 --> 00:57:49,985
So, you know, we have money warehousing banks now with eCash,

804
00:57:50,365 --> 00:57:51,265
both centralized

805
00:57:51,725 --> 00:57:52,705
or single issuer

806
00:57:53,289 --> 00:57:55,390
entities like Cashier or even federated

807
00:57:55,690 --> 00:57:57,390
money warehouses like Fedimint,

808
00:57:58,890 --> 00:58:01,150
which by the way, federated money warehouses

809
00:58:01,529 --> 00:58:02,589
were also invented

810
00:58:02,970 --> 00:58:05,309
by the guy who wrote the second realm and

811
00:58:05,609 --> 00:58:07,710
received the first book, on PGP.

812
00:58:08,895 --> 00:58:11,955
So just to show you that, like, one random dude,

813
00:58:12,335 --> 00:58:13,855
can can really change the world,

814
00:58:14,335 --> 00:58:16,255
substantially. The William Gibson quote,

815
00:58:17,455 --> 00:58:19,715
the future is here. It's just not evenly distributed.

816
00:58:20,150 --> 00:58:24,570
William Gibson, Bruce Sterling, I forget which. But so often timing is everything, right?

817
00:58:25,190 --> 00:58:26,090
Yeah, absolutely.

818
00:58:27,510 --> 00:58:28,330
Yeah. So,

819
00:58:29,030 --> 00:58:31,770
maybe architecture. You know, people like, boxes.

820
00:58:32,230 --> 00:58:34,730
We create boxes all the time. We live in boxes.

821
00:58:35,724 --> 00:58:37,505
So build beautiful boxes.

822
00:58:39,484 --> 00:58:41,744
And in all the again, the list of

823
00:58:42,045 --> 00:58:42,545
real,

824
00:58:43,085 --> 00:58:43,585
honest,

825
00:58:44,845 --> 00:58:47,905
good work that has to be done is substantial.

826
00:58:49,530 --> 00:58:53,630
And, it extends far across the digital domain. Right?

827
00:58:54,570 --> 00:58:55,050
And,

828
00:58:55,610 --> 00:58:57,230
hopefully with time

829
00:58:57,930 --> 00:59:04,635
and Bitcoin and Nostra continuing to grow and expand and other digital tools, it will help us to reprioritize

830
00:59:05,175 --> 00:59:07,435
our our physical meet space work as well.

831
00:59:09,095 --> 00:59:11,275
Another one, of course, is secure facilities.

832
00:59:11,734 --> 00:59:18,000
And we we don't like to be, stolen from or or physically hurt. So providing safe spaces,

833
00:59:18,700 --> 00:59:25,200
is is a great opportunity. And that goes, you know, in in in small scales, like a hotel or a restaurant,

834
00:59:25,980 --> 00:59:29,519
but it goes larger. I think, private cities, charter cities

835
00:59:29,925 --> 00:59:48,950
are gonna be massive in in this coming year over the years. Claim new territory. Go out and seastead the oceans. You know, build vessels that never have to dock on land and and create entire new living spaces out on the huge ocean. And the list of great business models is endless. So if you're lacking ideas,

836
00:59:49,490 --> 00:59:50,309
hit me up.

837
00:59:51,410 --> 00:59:53,829
I love that we've gone from beef jerky to seasteading.

838
00:59:54,529 --> 00:59:55,349
That's fantastic.

839
00:59:55,730 --> 00:59:57,029
And I think the takeaway

840
00:59:57,425 --> 01:00:00,244
that I have and and and love about these conversations

841
01:00:01,185 --> 01:00:03,925
is there is tremendous hope. There is vast opportunity.

842
01:00:04,785 --> 01:00:06,645
And for any of the,

843
01:00:07,025 --> 01:00:11,445
hurdles, be they cognitive or otherwise, that we need to cross to get there,

844
01:00:11,905 --> 01:00:13,320
it is absolutely worth it.

845
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:21,340
Max, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for your time. It's been a delight. I hope we get to pick this up, again soon.

846
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:26,300
For those not familiar, and I'll certainly be sure these are in the show notes, where can

847
01:00:26,705 --> 01:00:29,345
should we follow you and your work? Yeah. I'm,

848
01:00:30,145 --> 01:00:36,245
exclusively posting on Nostr these days. So you can find my public key on max at towardsliberty.com.

849
01:00:37,025 --> 01:00:37,525
And,

850
01:00:38,065 --> 01:00:38,865
yeah. So,

851
01:00:39,265 --> 01:00:42,005
follow me there. Hit me up with with any questions,

852
01:00:43,050 --> 01:00:47,710
and support the projects that that really deserve it. We've we've mentioned a lot of them already,

853
01:00:48,410 --> 01:00:55,215
and and and there are many more. And and and maybe specifically, if if you need any help with creating and,

854
01:00:57,135 --> 01:01:02,515
a digital setup to to protect your your Bitcoin and and really want to get some hands on

855
01:01:02,895 --> 01:01:04,595
consulting on on how to,

856
01:01:05,135 --> 01:01:06,595
traverse this path,

857
01:01:06,895 --> 01:01:08,275
and these different technologies,

858
01:01:09,069 --> 01:01:12,450
you can find my consulting work at soundmoneysolutions.io.

859
01:01:13,470 --> 01:01:14,990
And that goes for for,

860
01:01:15,470 --> 01:01:16,930
individuals as well as institutions

861
01:01:17,309 --> 01:01:20,770
who would like to explore their their Bitcoin strategy a bit further.

862
01:01:21,230 --> 01:01:21,730
Fantastic.

863
01:01:22,635 --> 01:01:24,815
Thanks again so much, Max. Talk to you soon.

864
01:01:25,595 --> 01:01:33,375
Yeah. Thanks, Ron, for the invite. This was a really fun conversation, and I'm looking forward to hear, the other episodes that you got, planned here. This is a great podcast. Alright.

865
01:01:33,915 --> 01:01:35,295
Thanks. Pleasure. Thanks, Max.