Alright. Max,
welcome. Thanks for taking the time. Well, thanks, John, for doing the podcast.
Absolutely. Like
I know, generally speaking, you're
gallivanting around Europe,
broadly.
And,
I think I saw that you're you have a session or an event you're running at BTC Prague. Is that right?
Yes. BTC Prague is a lovely conference. I enjoyed the the first two years were were incredible.
Really a very well organized large event,
and looking forward to the third one. Excellent. Probably gonna be better than before. Any other what what else is new for you? I know you've got I'd love to get a a glimpse into your short story if that's
if that's something we could get a peek into.
So my my my background is mainly in economics. Right? I've I've always loved think about entrepreneurship and and monetary theory
and fell down the Austrian economics rabbit hole quite early in life and, that primed me for Bitcoin. Right? But what was missing was more of the technological
appreciation
of what is free and open source software, what what is decipher punks, what is encryption.
That came later in my life and that was needed for me to actually grok Bitcoin and and and really understand why it's so important.
And yeah, since, since then of of really making that connection of of Bitcoin as,
unstoppable freedom tech
and freedom money.
That really led me to do my part in building the tools
out there. I'm not a developer.
I'm more on the, let's say, product side, you know,
finding out what should be built and coordinating the devs,
and motivating them to get things done, you know, getting user feedback,
writing the documentation, these type of things.
So,
we need much more than just developers to build the FreedomTech.
Right? Even though it's software, there's a whole bunch of other stuff.
So I'm I'm on the other stuff category,
everything but code.
And I do that for In fact, you know, and and
there were two
primary reasons I was motivated to invite you. One is
you are a triple threat across economics, philosophy, and technology.
And I know you claim not to be a software developer, but but I think your commit history on GitHub may
may challenge that.
And also because from my standpoint,
you, to a large degree, live in the future.
And you've got a lot to sort of inform those of us, particularly in the Bitcoin community, and and the reach the intention
for this show is to reach a broader audience.
So for those who are, you know, within the Bitcoin sphere, they'll know you well.
For those who are not,
you are
conducting your life and your business in ways that I think is a real
fascinating look at at what the future may look like, and certainly people like myself hope,
that it looks like. And with that, I mean, how do you see Bitcoin fundamentally reshaping
pardon me, reshaping the way trust works, both certainly in
individual financial transactions,
but in a broader societal
sense,
as compared to
traditional institutions? Yeah.
That's that's a very pressing and important question. And,
I I certainly can say that that Bitcoin is something worth to trust,
which is maybe,
difficult for newcomers to see. And because we've we're used to trusting other systems. Right? We're used to trusting
banks and big institutions and and governments.
And,
you know, that's just a trust that we've grown up with and that we,
assume is is valid and and worthy to give.
And, you know, just just,
before I fell down the Bitcoin rabbit hole really hard, I signed a three year contract to work at Deutsche Bank. So I was, in the belly of the beast, so to say, and and, work working my way through the the institution to really get a glimpse of of what it is that it does and to where the people involved in it. And I was shocked of,
how much the trust,
of of the client was extended to to the bank.
Banks have an enormous amount of power and and,
privilege
to act on behalf of users and recommend them,
you know, assets and financial vehicles, etcetera.
And, of course, to trust to custody the money and initiate transactions, etcetera.
And this,
this is an enormous privilege that is being granted just by default,
from everyone.
And
so I really came to understand
that this trust might not be as as, as well given as as it actually is. And so when the three year contract was over, the first thing I did was to delete my bank account.
So now for the last almost six years, I don't have a bank account neither for myself nor for my businesses.
Because why why would you give someone this much trust when in the history he has been very much,
not not fulfilling his end of the bargain, so to say. Right? The banking system has has led to numerous
problems,
in the world, I would say. And
and now the beautiful thing with Bitcoin is we actually don't need to trust,
for for many things
anymore,
to a financial institution like a bank.
We can replace that trust with a trust in Bitcoin. And I would argue that this, the trust is well earned with Bitcoin.
And we have a fully audible,
and open source code, right? We see exactly how Bitcoin works and you can analyze it line by line if if you do understand how to code, which I really don't.
But a lot of my good friends whom I trust as well have have reviewed and audited this code. In fact, I've paid developers to to audit the code to make sure that it is doing what what we would anticipate it to do, etcetera.
And and this just means that we have a a monetary network,
where where, you for for yourself
can define,
verify, and enforce the rules of the monetary network
and that each and every transaction in this network has followed the rules that were set out at the beginning. Right? It is a a quite incredible mechanism
where where
you you trust the software to to do what what it does, right? But but ultimately, the software is designed so that you verify for yourself,
ultimately everything that's happening in this monetary network. And,
now sure, just making base money transactions, just, sending around pieces of gold, so to say, is far from the entire scope of service that a bank provides.
And I definitely see that banking as an institution per se, as a business per se, is extremely valuable and will even be valuable in the future with Bitcoin,
being more broadly adopted.
It's just that not you won't trust your bank with the same way that that you do right now. You don't have to trust your bank, to hold your money and and to settle your transactions.
And,
and this is just a big change in in how we trust people and and whom we trust people and how do we choose whom to trust. Because there's a lot of new verification technologies out there that really make it possible to be much more careful in in whom you
gift with your trust. And I think I mean, that is absolutely
one of the areas
of exploration that I'm I'm committed to pursue. And I think for the reasons you point out, there has been this tremendous imbalance
that these let's just pick on financial institutions, banks, and the rest.
They have
had most of the cards, had most of the tools, had most of the power for certain,
and, that's changing. And I think then, Max, what would you say have been the most painful parts of
of deleting your bank account, embracing Bitcoin fully?
You know, what has been most challenging? What's been most liberating? Yeah. The,
the challenging part might be that that sometimes things take a little bit longer, and and are a bit more difficult than otherwise. You know, when people actually have a bank card,
it feels almost like a superpower to me, you know, because you can just always buy stuff from anyone ultimately because everyone accepts bank transfer or credit card payments, these days.
And so I had to be much more,
deliberate with whom do I actually want to work with, right? Because, just many merchants don't take the currency that I prefer to use. And so that's a bit of an issue. And,
the good thing is though, that there hasn't been anything that I really wanted that I couldn't get. Right? Either by convincing the merchant to take Bitcoin directly
or by working with a proxy merchant, basically. You know, I I pay someone in Bitcoin with the task of, hey, please acquire this good and sell it to me ultimately. So you just add a middleman. Right? And I know Bitcoin is kind of meant to to destroy the middleman, but I do think that in this network of economic activity,
other entrepreneurs
are crucial, right? We're never alone
on an on a lonely island just all by ourselves. That's not how the human experience is. It's inherently,
your system of trusted peers, right, that you have, that you want to collaborate with. And, so there are proxy merchants as one example, ShopInBit,
which in my opinion is a very, trustworthy,
merchant, right, who who has, proper ethics and and understands the value of Bitcoin and and the value of privacy
such that he he you can basically buy anything that you want,
with with this way.
And of course, I still use cash. Right? Cash is king, at least in the fiat world.
And,
that is sometimes though a hassle, especially when you travel a lot. You you show up in a place and you simply don't have the local currency.
And, this,
this then requires you to meet people, which is also fantastic because,
if you hold Bitcoin and you want to acquire some, some fiat paper, well, you're on the easy side of the trade.
There's a lot of people who want to get their hands on Bitcoin and want to get rid of the fiat as soon as possible.
And and so this is a great opportunity to meet people who actually care about protecting themselves and and their wealth with with Bitcoin. So it's a great opportunity to meet new friends. Yes. And I mean, that that ability to or that motivation to localize,
I think, is a big part of
the shift that I hope is coming
away from these centralizing factors to, you know, whether it is,
as as folks that we would probably both know would say, shake your rancher's hand, shake your farmer's hand,
to having the ability wherever you go to reach out to those, as you say, who who want them on the other side of that trade. In a bit more specifics
or more specifically,
Wasabi Wallet. So I'd I'd love for you to to give those who may not know. As I say, those those in the Bitcoin sphere certainly will know,
you and the product well. But for those who don't, please please give us an overview of Wasabi Wallet.
With with it and your focus on privacy tools, I think more generally,
you're you're arming individuals
against mass surveillance. Those are my words, not yours.
What's the biggest challenge people face in reclaiming
financial privacy today,
and in rebalancing
this
imbalance of power
and the dynamics of trust that exist there? Yeah. The the very first feedback that that Satoshi got after publishing the white paper, right, the draft of of, hey. This is the Bitcoin system. This is how it could work.
It was pretty obvious.
And and it resonates with what I said earlier. Right? You verify
every transaction of everyone else in the history of the existence of the money. Right?
That's ridiculous. Right? That that doesn't scale because it isn't private. And if you need to read and review every transaction everyone ever made, first of all, that's a hell of a lot of transactions.
And so that just takes a lot of time. Thankfully, we have computers to do that work for us, but still requires a lot of compute power.
But then also you have the issue that you'll read the transaction of everyone else.
That that's kind of a privacy nightmare, right? Imagine your worst enemy knowing exactly what you spend, when and where and how much and how much money you have left over. Right? This is this is quite a peculiar situation that the Bitcoin protocol,
puts us in.
And,
thankfully, there there are numerous
improvements
of how to be more careful with which information do you reveal about your financial transactions to other people, to third parties.
And there are tricks like, for example,
to use a new Bitcoin address for each time you get paid. And instead of using the same identity to get paid, across time, right,
which does a fair deal, in keeping you more private. And would it be fair to say again, Max, just thinking of those who may not be as deep in this,
it's like the ability to spin up a new checking account
to receive a payment
rather than having this unified ledger well, I shouldn't I shouldn't because we do have the unified
the one bucket of transactional
data in your checking or savings account,
with Bitcoin, we have the ability to spin up new addresses and and and to some degree disconnect. And I know you'll get into more detail about how Wasabi
Wallet further,
aids that that goal.
Yeah. Exactly.
So the the address is is the identifier of of who can spend that money. And it's like your, your, your public key. It's, it's your, your account number, as you said.
And, and if we use the same account number across multiple payments and remember that everyone sees exactly
to which account number does the money get sent,
then, then we anyone can clearly say, hey, this account got paid 10 times in the past and he's now holding a total balance of a hundred Bitcoin or something. And he hasn't spent them for ten years.
And so there seems to be an OG who has quite a lot of Bitcoin and who's still saving them.
And now if, if you, you know, buy,
if you, send some money to, to this person, you, you can see the past of their financial transactions as well.
You know, and just assume that if you buy coffee on a coffee store and all of a sudden the barista can can see exactly,
hey, how much how much money does that guy actually have? And that's a that's a bit of a tricky situation that that we're not used to in in the in the legacy system, right? If if you pay with a card,
the barista doesn't know how much money you have and and where you got it from. But in the nature of Bitcoin as a system, he very much can easily find this out.
And that is quite
a harsh difference to the previous systems. And,
this is where Wasabi Wallet ultimately comes in. It's a wallet. So it's a way to generate
new private keys and new addresses, new accounts, so to say, as many as you want. Right?
And to securely and privately find out how much money do you have on these accounts,
which which is another thing where where, again, you, you would need a Bitcoin full node, a software that verifies the entire history of, of the blockchain, of all the transactions that has happened in order to retrieve privately how much money you have. And Wasabi was the first wallet to figure out how we can find out how much money the user has without sending the user's addresses to a third party server.
And so this private balance lookup, so to say, was one of, Wasabi's great inventions.
And, then then further, we want to make sure that those addresses that that we have received money on in the past
can actually now be spent without revealing that that they belong to each other. Right? So let's say one time you get paid by your employer and and the other time you get paid by your mother or or someone, And you maybe don't want your mom to know how much money you actually earn, in in your business. Right?
So how can we spend our entire wallet balance without revealing,
to one party that you've also received this other transaction?
So and again, with Bitcoin, these these threats are not just with the people whom you interact with, the people whom you send money to and the people who pay you. It's also a problem of the entire world can look at these transactions that you're making.
And this is where CoinJoin as a technology comes in.
It's ultimately
a collaborative Bitcoin transaction.
So instead of making a Bitcoin transaction with only one user,
we make a Bitcoin transaction with hundreds of users.
And, and this increases the size of the crowd that we're hiding in, so to say, which is quite a common tactic to improve,
users' privacy.
It's just to, to batch many users together in, in one activity.
And, the third pillar of how Wasabi protects your privacy ultimately is, with the Tor network, a very sophisticated implementation
of using the Tor network to ensure that, again, no two communications
that your wallet does are linked to the same identity.
Where do you, Max, see this going inevitably? And I'll I'll I'll interrupt myself to say, again, for those who may not be familiar with the tools, that
we operate today, as we all know, because it's been hours talking about this, certainly, in a place where
financial institutions, governments, regulators,
assume demand the right to know everything about every transaction and every person.
There are many of us, myself, yourself included, who would argue that that is not the natural state of affairs.
And the tools you're building, the products you contribute to
are
seeking to rebalance.
So
the path we're on,
not being able to necessarily see into the
splintering paths of every regulatory regime that could throw us a curveball,
where are we headed?
How private, how, as I'll continue to say, rebalanced is the trust relationship between us
and either financial institutions,
should we choose to interact with them,
or other individuals? So so in short, where are we headed? I think we're heading in a in a tremendously great, trajectory.
If if you would go back twenty years from now,
maybe thirty years, and and you would ask the early cypherpunks, you know, the pioneers of digital privacy,
on on what are the goals? What what would we like to have?
We we would want to have, you know, a secure way of making payments,
in which we have Bitcoin. It will be great if that's private. We have coin joins. We have the Lightning Network. Right?
And and we want to communicate with each other, in a in a private way. Now we have encryption for this since since quite a long time, in, in a way that it cannot be stopped. Now we have, the Noster protocol for this as well.
So just
like the main pillars, the main targets of decipher problems have been achieved. We have anonymous,
resilient
communication,
base money and transactions,
like right now. And,
that's fantastic. On a technological,
front,
we've basically achieved everything that we've set out to achieve.
Now,
technology is not everything, right? Especially when it comes to security technology.
Security technology only works, it can only protect you if the user actually resists an attacker.
If the user
is happy to hand over his data, hand over his money,
to whoever comes knocking ultimately,
then no amount of technology can help you. And,
like an analogy would be you have a couple of bars of gold and you want to protect them well. So you get all the best technology. You get a safe deposit box, you know, big steel walls. You
simply put them in a bunch of cement, make sure they cannot be moved. Right? You hire a couple armed guards with guns and a tank, you know, in front of it to stand in front of it to really make sure nobody gets into it. But then the first person comes along is like, hey, I I'd like to get your gold, please.
And you go, okay. Sure. Right? You put the gun away. You you open the door to the vault,
and voila,
the very substantially
good security technology,
was not able to protect you, because, security
is always a human problem ultimately.
And that's why having the tools is only part of the battle. We need to
instill
a act of resisting an attacker
into the hearts and minds of individuals. And
this is where podcasts like this come in, right? To fight the cultural battle, so to say, to normalize the the act of of protecting your property. And which which I would argue in history has throughout times been more or less prevalent.
And, the the good thing is though that now we have a rebalancing
of the cost to attack and the cost to defend.
And it, is now extremely
cheap to defend yourself,
to a very large extent
such that the, the attack
becomes extremely expensive.
And now we have a way that that millions, billions of people
can profitably protect themselves, even if they're not that wealthy,
and therefore make the cost of, of the attacker
even larger. Right? Because now it's no longer possible to attack millions of people at the same time as is done with DReCNET surveillance.
And so here,
I think we have on a technological,
realm, we basically have won the battle.
And now culture is is downstream of technology. And it might take, you know, a generation
or two to really,
get where we are at, right, to to understand and to appreciate what what this is and, of course, to continue building the technology.
But but ultimately that that cultural mindset will change and shift.
And then finally, politics is downstream of culture. And so we will see a lot of different regulatory approaches to how we deal with these technologies,
and and hopefully in a more sane and and more liberating way. Do you see catalysts
that will accelerate that cultural
shift in adoption,
let's say, as compared to or in conjunction with
winning hearts and minds, education,
the work that you and others do in writing and other media,
are
there catalysts
that you see accelerating
that cultural shift, or
do we just need to be patient? I think the a great catalyst is, is an attacker, ultimately. As soon as you feel the pain of an attack or the threat of an attack, you're probably gonna do something about this. And maybe the best example of this is, the in the last couple of years, COVID. I had the
quite draconian crackdown of governments on individual freedoms was substantial.
And a lot of people realized that, Hey, I would like to have at least some inkling of freedom in my life and,
the ability to make choices,
without having the threat of violence hanging over me.
I think this created a lot of anarchists ultimately,
and introduced a lot of people to Bitcoin.
So,
the, the best,
marketing efforts, for Bitcoin and other freedom technologies is continuous government overreach. And it doesn't seem like they're gonna stop anytime soon. We can base on it, right?
To use a phrase. Well, and that
is, I think, a great segue into something you mentioned, and certainly I'm
a proponent and advocate of
and see a tremendous amount of promise, which is Noster. And so I'd love to chat for a minute, Max,
about where Noster fits
in the array of protocols, freedom technologies
that
will
continue to help us
decentralize
and to shift
more to local and to empowering the individual
And then any other promising protocols or technologies that you see alongside that perhaps others should should pay attention to?
Yeah, Nostr is is a wonderful
set of tools and protocols. It's
it's very similar in essence to PGP, the Pretty Good Privacy Protocol by Phil Zimmerman
in the early nineties or something when this was developed.
It relies on private public key cryptography.
So you can easily create an identity
simply by throwing a couple dice or coins,
to get a random number. That's your identity.
And now you can sign messages, meaning you can,
prove to other people that,
this message has been seen by you and has been authorized by you. Those are cryptographic signatures. Bitcoin uses them as well,
to prove that you have the authority to spend a coin.
And you can also encrypt messages. And so,
I can encrypt the message to Sean's public key such that anyone who has this encrypted ciphertext cannot read it until or unless he has the private key that Sean has generated.
And, so,
PGP
never really took off,
because it was quite cumbersome to use and the software just wasn't there yet. And maybe we didn't have the imagination
of what could actually be done with all of this.
And, and then Bitcoin was probably one of the pioneering private public key systems that, that really took off. Right?
And, and so Nostr takes some of those,
principles and, and just puts a unique spin on it. And,
specifically,
the the content of these messages that we're signing and encrypting is now standardized.
Right? Meaning, we have a different standard for making public posts, like a short form tweet. You know?
We have a different standard for blog posts.
And we have a different standard for publishing the release of a software. Right? And there is now hundreds, maybe even thousands of different standards
on how to create the signed,
message,
right, and how to interpret it such that we don't just have one application
that deals with all of this. We have hundreds at this point. And nobody can prevent you from creating
a new application that follows one or more of these standards on how to create and interpret these signed messages.
And
this now means we have a, yeah, a liberation of possibilities
for developers
to come up with, with great applications that utilize this private public key cryptography system
in an open manner. Because the, the genius inside is that as soon as we have a signed message,
it does not matter where you have received this message from. If you get it from a trusted server like twitter.com, or if you get it on a USB stick, or if you if someone shouts it at you, just an anonymous person, right? As soon as you have this signed message, you can, without trusting anyone, without trusting the person who gave you this message, you can verify that it was authored by the person with the private key. Otherwise, it could not have been signed. It's a mathematical proof. And again, crucial in the trust paradigm that we're talking about here.
And, and now this means that we can put our messages
not just on one server, like twitter.com,
facebook Com, right? But we can put them on hundreds of servers. You can run a server for yourself.
You can run that server or or a Nostra Relay on your phone, right? It does not matter where these messages are stored and gathered anymore.
As soon as the user gets the message, he can verify by himself
that the authenticity,
is, is valid and which, which is a, a mind blowing shift in, in the security
and, and architectural
design of how to create applications.
And then and so the list of amazing Nostra projects is endless, right? You have the social media experience, like something like Amethyst, for example, or DAMOS.
Similar to Twitter, right? You can create short form posts. People can like them,
and people can send money for them as well. Right? Because,
we can now add metadata
to our cryptographically
signed,
network of nodes. So to say, Hey, this is my Bitcoin address.
You can send me money to. And, and you can attest that someone has sent money, to you. And so now we have the social payment
experience of if you want to reveal that, Hey, I just got paid by this person,
then then you can,
which now also means that we have an additional
signal
for which messages are valuable, which messages are useful.
Those messages who who got paid a lot of Bitcoin for are probably interesting to read.
So this enables us just to get an entirely new set of ways that we can filter and highlight
messages that might be valuable to the end user. And we were basically creating a web of trust
where,
we we have different categories
of this metadata, this information is might be useful to the user. And it's not spam. It is something that the user might want to see. And this might be something like, hey, you're following this user.
So here's the notes that he is sending. Or maybe you follow a friend of that user. Right? So there's one hop of separation.
Right? Or maybe your friends are sending money to the notes of this other user. Maybe you should look at that. Right? All of these design systems are possible now.
And and it goes much more than than just text. Right? You can you can do the same with videos, for example. That's where the Blossom protocol comes in,
where you can host large files, you know, not just text, images, videos, etcetera, in a similar architecture where each video file is, is clearly identified by a hash
and,
short fingerprint basically of the data.
And you can sign, you know, and say, Hey, look, this is the data that I'm referring to.
And, we can be sure that every picture that is posted has not been tampered with. And a huge protection against, for example, AI deepfakes that we see nowadays.
But we also have an open marketplace in this. Now you can say that, hey, this is a trusted merchant and here are the products that he is offering and you can securely and directly communicate with him.
You can do the Internet of Things without any, you know, weird Chinese server that that sends all of your, you know,
every time you turn on the light bulb or something, but this gets logged by some third party server. No, this can just be done by you and your relay,
right? That that's all inside your home network. So this,
Nostra is really a pivotal
shifting of the trust spectrum,
by relying a lot more on cryptographic assurances
rather than on a single server
that that we deem is is is the the whole purveyor of the truth, and that can change messages without the end user ultimately knowing. All of these things are are no longer possible with Gnostr, and that's just incredibly exciting.
It is incredibly exciting. I am
hard pressed to say how bullish I am about Nostra. I
you know, Bitcoin is unstoppable money. Nostra is unstoppable communications
in my view. And I think, you know, to your point, whether it's authenticity,
attribution,
the ability to cryptographically
definitively
prove these things,
is incredible. I I don't know if you're probably familiar with Zapstore, Max. Have you It's fantastic. Had a look?
So Zapstore
is
mobile well, actually, I think it's platform agnostic, but it is,
taking
the App Store
and
decentralizing it and using the Nostra web of trust. So
if I were to choose, particularly on Android, I think I'm an iPhone guy at present. But
if I were to
download a random APK, if I were to use one of the various third party non Google affiliated app stores,
maybe
maybe I get
good code. Maybe I get malware. Who knows? Right? And with Zapstore, I have the ability
to see via my web of trust my followers, my followers,
who also trusts that code, who has,
chosen
to to trust that code and that developer. And I I won't do it full justice here. But it it takes the
centralizing
effect of an Apple or a Google
being thou who shalt, you know, validate code and validate apps and declare that it's safe and good for you to install. And it puts it back in the hands of the individual based upon,
install, and it puts it back in the hands of the individual based upon, as you've mentioned, their web of trust. And so I think that's
incredibly powerful.
You know, you you touched
in that, Max, on the
transactional capabilities, be it Zaps to for those who don't know, it's so called value for value. So,
you know, one of the reasons that that reminded me to reach out to you, Max, was some of your posts on Nostr have been,
I've certainly been enjoying them. And I think that there are tremendous distillations. As I say, you know, earlier, you're a triple threat across economics, philosophy, and technology. And so
I
have the ability
to send you Satoshis, to send you
small, fractions of a Bitcoin, which is real money and real value and for the value that I get back. So that's certainly powerful.
But I think more broadly, we're seeing marketplaces
develop. We're seeing,
peer to peer
exchange and trade happening more broadly. And that takes me to
some of your
writing about the second realm and economic freedom.
And
you've talked about and maybe we'll start with, please, you explaining you know, what the second realm is to those who don't know,
a a parallel economy
based on Bitcoin.
And so
for those who
may be
peeking in, peering in,
from
where they are today,
which is using traditional financial institutions,
consuming traditional media, etcetera. But maybe they've got that inkling, as you said. Maybe it was lockdowns. Maybe it was something else that that gave them that inclination to to look.
What practical steps
can individuals
take
to begin to step in to that second realm? So first, what is it, and second, you know, what are some of those early steps that that those who are curious can can take? The second film is a fascinating concept,
really articulated by some of the OG cypherpunks.
You know, talking about PGP earlier,
there was a big fight against PGP from the government, of course. And,
but one way that this fight was won was that we printed the PGP source code on a book
and sent it from America to to Europe and, to to prove that this is not an export of arms. This is simply knowledge being shared.
So guess who received
the first book of the PGP source code in Europe was the author of the book, The Second Realm. And,
and the book highlights
that there are two realms, right? There is the first realm of corrosion
and and violence, right? The the system of the state ultimately.
And then there's the second realm, which is, as you so nicely said, a parallel economy.
It is where where people meet and and communicate
and and gather and trade,
without the purview of others and without necessarily asking for permission,
simply because they want to help each other. And, and,
the,
this second realm has always existed, right? There, there was always a king who demanded tribute
and always people who were just like, yeah, we're just gonna do it here on the side without the king really knowing about it.
But the system
of, or this parallel culture was really kicked into gear with the advent of, of cyberpunk technologies and, and FreedomTech,
where we have now secure encryption, where we have anonymous communications, where we have, anonymous digital payments.
This means that we can now work on an economy that is much larger, much more sophisticated
than was previously deemed possible. And we can, we can build, entire, you know, huge constructs,
without revealing who the people involved in the trade are.
And so this means that, that we have a way again, to, to establish
more, more freedom in, in the life of, of everyone,
in in a way that's quite difficult to stop, quite expensive to stop.
And and simultaneously,
it is easy to use, right? So we decrease the cost of defense and increase the cost of attack.
And so how to participate in in this economy? There's another great,
piece of writing,
called the aristocracy
of action.
And you you don't need to sign up.
You don't need to write a petition. You don't need to ask for permission to be part of the second drill. You just do it. Right? As soon as you help your friends and family, as soon as you interact with your neighbor on a peaceful, on a voluntary,
way,
you're a part of the second realm. You're living in in anarchy where we value our contracts, where we value the ethic of of providing work and solving problems.
There is that's all that's needed. Just be useful,
and, and, you know, start a side business.
Get some chicken and sell the eggs. No.
Make your own soap and sell it on Oster.
Or, you know, produce some leather wallets or or whatever it is.
Of course, write software. Right? Software development is is a fantastic trade in in the second realm because it is being provided online. It can be shipped to billions of people at the press of a button and the signing of a Zap story event, right, for release. So there there,
there's really it's it's really quite,
easy nowadays,
to be part of of the second realm and and to live a life that's that's just a bit freer.
And another great realization is that you don't need to be all in, to, to the freedom realm. In fact, that might be quite risky.
Right? There,
is this concept of the parallel ne polis, right? The parallel economy, the parallel society, so to say. And this was penned by, Vaclav Bender.
And, he was a freedom fighter in the Czechoslovak,
in Czechoslovakia
during the Russian or Soviet occupation.
And he realized that if you're outright,
hostile
and disobedient
against the state, then you simply get put to the Gulag. Right?
And you die, you know, or and your kids or your cousins,
will never be able to go to university, right, because they were part of the family of of a descent,
and,
that simply was not tolerated. So to to be completely in the second realm, so to say, and publicly so, outright so, is extremely dangerous in some situations.
And, and so what you can do is, is to still be part of the first realm, right? To have in your little business
the big sign of workers of the world unite.
Now, even though you know it's, it's a bullshit lie and everyone else knows that, that it's a bullshit lie. And, but you still do it because if you don't, you go to the Gulag. Right?
However,
in the evenings, you know, you, you take your kids out of the public school and you actually teach them about logic and reason and poetry and the beautiful things that, that free minds can, can come up with. And that is the parallel economy. It's, it's the underground,
speakeasies,
you know, where you gather with, with free minds and share ideas and, and,
shape a reality that you would actually like to be part of.
And since there is no exclusion to be entirely in the first realm or entirely in the second realm, this is also a great opportunity for one of the business models we've mentioned earlier, that of the proxy merchant.
Because the the second realm is is rather limited in size compared to the first one,
it it's a great business to put goods from the second realm into the first from the first into into the second,
and and play this arbitrage game ultimately. So this is one of the many,
good businesses that that is possible nowadays.
Right? Like, again,
you want to get more Bitcoin.
There are people who have Bitcoin
and don't have bank accounts, as one example,
and want to get other stuff. So you buy the other stuff for them with with your fiat, and then you sell it to them for Bitcoin.
That is one of the the great business models that's possible. Tremendous. And and I think to your point, it can sound and again, I'm imagining
those perhaps new to the ideas even of of of Bitcoin.
It can sound
outrageous, rebellious,
anarchistic, certainly, which, you know, we would argue, I think, by the academic proper definition, it is.
But I think it also, to me, tell me if you see it differently,
is, again, a return to localism. It's a return to community. It's a return to, you know, I am as guilty as anyone for the number of boxes that show up at the front door from Amazon. We're we're trying to get better at that. But I
think,
in large part, this is enabling individuals
to,
conduct commerce, to trade, to engage, to
be less reliant
on, again, centralizing factors and and to be more connected and engaged with their local communities, which is,
I think, about as wholesome as it gets.
But Yeah. Exactly.
There are those who push back. There are those who will push back against it.
Yeah. Anarchy is quite a scary sounding word. But ultimately, it's about helping your neighbors, right, of being useful to others.
It just means, anarkon, comes from the Greek, meaning without,
and rulers. Right?
So, you know, simply as soon as two people meet and and, you know, have have a good time and and shake hands and walk away peacefully,
that's anarchy. It's it's as simple as that. Fantastic.
So so we're I'm moving us backwards, I guess you could say, from
technology,
economics,
and now philosophy. And so you think that we were gonna get away without talking about praxeology?
So
and and human action. And so your your work, you'll you'll correct me, is informed by praxeology,
the study of purposeful human behavior.
How does this philosophy
guide your development
of the tools that you build and that you contribute to, like Wasabi Wallet?
And what does it teach us about
the whys and the hows of
trusting
code tools
that which can be observed and studied,
pardon me, over institutions?
Yeah. That's that's a fantastic question. And and,
I mean, the big question is what is money, right? And why do we use it? And is it good technology?
Is it useful? Right? And I would argue that most schools of economic thought
simply cannot answer this question adequately.
But praxeology
and and the Austrian tradition very much can. And this goes back to Karl Menger, and Ludwig van Mises and and Rothbard and and Hoppe, who who really articulate the the immense
value and and utility of money
and really give profound and deep reasonings for it.
And, and also the, and specifically, Jorquita Holzmann is great on this, on the ethics of money production,
right?
On the ethical quality
of, of different monetary systems.
And, if a fiat monopoly money,
is, is a good thing or, or,
and versus
a free competitive, competitive money like Bitcoin or gold.
You know, which of these systems is preferable?
Which of these systems lead to better outcomes for its participants?
And, and, here again, praxeology is just absolutely spot on. Right? As soon as as you have a monopoly on who can produce
the monetary units,
then you introduce senior rush. Right? This is where you can print money at a profit, ultimately. It costs the US government, what, 17¢
to produce a $100
note. And,
maybe by now it's 25¢ because even printing money gets more expensive, printing paper gets more expensive, right? Pushing the money goes up in cost.
Yeah. And that's why ultimately they stopped printing the or creating the one cent coin, right? Because Or are thinking to because it costs them, what, 20¢
to produce the 1¢ coin, a penny?
That's simply not profitable anymore, right? So there's no senior rush here. No gain for printing mine.
Money. And as soon as you have that,
you, you, you mess with the supply and demand as a concept. Right? People demand more things because they don't have to pay the full dollar for a good. Right? They only have to pay
2¢ on the dollar or whatever percentage it is,
because they can print it more,
cheaply than than they can sell it for.
And and this leads to all types of distortions in in the market,
specifically,
malinvestments.
Right? So we invest in projects
that are worse than they otherwise would have been. Projects that take longer to consume, projects that are more complex. Hayek would say projects that are more roundabout in their production stages.
Right? And simultaneously,
we overconsume,
right? We order a bunch of stuff from Amazon that we probably don't really need,
just because it's so, you know, easily available
and we can just click a button and, hey, we you know, didn't really have to work hard to earn that money, so why not spend it and and have a bit of a good time? Right? And those two forces together, the malinvestment
and the overconsumption,
leads to a depletion of actually scarce resources.
And we only have this number of steel, of concrete, of wood, etcetera, in the economy.
And if we keep building houses and skyscrapers
that are getting bigger and bigger, and simultaneously,
you know, we're burning a lot of wood to heat our house, etcetera,
resources run out. And and this leads to the bust, right, where we simply cannot finish
the construction of a building,
not because we wouldn't like to, but because we don't have the raw materials anymore. We don't have the resources, including human time,
to to finish the goods. Right? And and, because we started too many projects at once, ultimately.
That is the bust period,
that that arises from from having seen a rash on the money, from having a monopoly on who can print the money.
And, this this is such a devastating
cost for humanity. It's it's
unbelievable.
It's such
a monumental, such a huge
number of waste, of destruction and missed opportunity
that it's so painful to think where we could have been if we wouldn't have stolen so much,
so much over the last hundred, a thousand years.
It
it's, it's just heartbreaking, you know? So this is where
really proxyology gives you an a reason to, to care, right? Because it explains to you where, where we could have been. What are the un the unseen, the unrealized
capacity or capabilities
of humankind?
And once you get that, you realize that it's of utmost of like, you know, human extinction level importance
that, that we fix the money ahead and, and that we stop these institutionalized
systems of theft that, that have crept in and have been enforced for, for way too long, way too long.
And,
this is I would argue, forgive me, Max, that
what you just said to me is the crux of it, which is
and I appreciate the praxeology is is deserving
of a a series of lectures, not a not a fifteen minute conversation. But
but you'll you'll correct me that it is a lens through which
we can properly see
that which these institutions
have done, have stolen,
have corrupted, and therefore why it is worth, back to our our conversation earlier,
it's worth investing
the effort, the time, the energy,
the cognitive dissonance
to adopt things like Bitcoin and Oster.
Could you speak to that a bit?
Yeah.
Absolutely. Right? We when when you see the the cost and of the problem, right, specifically money printing, but but other government intervention as well,
then then that's that's a lot of pain. Right? That's a lot of fear.
And and that's a distressing situation, right, when you realize that the cost,
and you might not see a way out. And then and here is, is where the hope of the cypherpunks, you know, that, that glimmer of hope at the horizon of, hey, we actually can build a better world,
where theft becomes unprofitable, where printing money becomes unprofitable.
And,
and this gives us hope of of where we could be in the future. And and those two things are are in combination,
extremely motivation.
Right? When when you have the fear of the systems that we have created in the past and at the real cost that they produce.
And on the other side, the hope of a real possibility of of creating new systems
that don't suffer of the same flaws.
That just means you you're gonna work your ass off once you make that realization.
And, this was certainly the case for myself. I've never been more productive,
than in those last couple of years where I really have made this connection and realize of,
the extent of this. And I see it in a lot of my peers,
that people care
extremely,
to to fix the world,
and
and have an actionable plan on how to achieve that.
Right? That is a dangerous combination.
Because not just are we motivated to work overtime nonstop,
but we're not wasting our time on on strategies misapplied.
We actually have a quite clear cut on how to reach the top of the mountain, and we're just running as hard as possible.
And and that is exhilarating
to work at. And,
so that's just my open invitation to to anyone who starts to glimpse,
the the the pain and and the hope that that we have in front of us, to come join us and run up the hill. Perfect. Perfect, bridge to what I'd like to to discuss in in closing with you, Max, which is,
I think, again, you're uniquely
qualified
to
offer suggestions, advice in this regard. I believe I recall that you,
mentioned
perhaps it was Peter McCormick's,
conversation that you began your entrepreneurial
path at 15, I think it was.
I think it was even earlier than that. My first job was was bringing out the newspaper.
I think I was nine or 10. I don't recall at the moment. I robbed you of a few years. It was a hundred. And so you've been at it.
And as I say, you you've you've got,
and I'll be sure, of course, in the show notes to make sure everyone is aware of of the various projects that you've built, contributed to, led. And so with that, with your history as an entrepreneur, your history as a builder,
as someone who understands the the economics and the the philosophical impact of of where we're headed, I think you and I both assume
more so believe deeply
that we are headed toward this future that that I think you've eloquently laid out.
How should a business leader, founder,
CXO,
who again is peeking over the fence,
how should they
rethink
their business models, their operations,
on the topic of trust, perhaps most pertinently their customer relationships,
to thrive in this future that, as I said at the outset, you live in
and that you're building toward? Well, if if your if your business relies on coercion, right, on on on forcing people to to use your service,
then anticipate that you're gonna lose customers,
especially when a freer alternative to to your service
arises and becomes profitable to provide. Right? And,
don't take this as a as a threat.
Take it as an opportunity,
because there there are ways to to make money, to make a lot of money,
without
sacrificing your users. Right? You make money not because people are forced to work with you. You make money because you solve problems for others. And there's a hell of a lot of problems to be solved out there,
in in basically any business. So just be useful, you know, be helpful to others,
and make that the core
ethos of the business rather than how can we exploit our users the most in the next three months.
Right? See
how you can be part of a multi generational
solution to to extremely large problems.
And and that will will be the biggest moats that you have,
ultimately.
And and utilize the latest cutting edge technologies
at FreedomTech
is incredible. It it's
it's mind blowing of of what really is possible at this moment. With with Bitcoin, obviously. So I mean, if if you're not holding Bitcoin as a as a treasury, then what what are you doing? Right? You you Michael Saylor would like to have a word with you.
Exactly.
And the fifteen plus years of of track record of of Bitcoin
just outperforming and everything else. Right? And and maybe, like, if if your hurdle rate is still the S and P 500,
if if you aim to perform 10
every year, right, and and make that money for for your investors,
then I I hate to break it to you, but but you're losing money because your investors could have just bought Bitcoin and did nothing. Right? Just hold base money
without any counterparty risk,
without the fear that, you know, the manager runs away with the money or does some stupid investment decisions. None of that. And you would have made a % per year. Right? So so Bitcoin is the real hurdle rate. That's what you need to outperform
for your investors to be happy in the long run. And and so the easiest way to outperform Bitcoin is simply to hold Bitcoin.
So that you at least break even.
So so that's, an important first step.
And then really be be careful and cautious with how you allocate your resources.
Because again, we've printed so much money in the last thousand years, a hundred years, especially, ten years, especially. Right? It's incredible how much money was printed.
And this means that everyone is being tricked, right? And you're no exception to it. You've made investments and consumptions in the past that were absolutely stupid, and you should not have done that, right? But you were tricked by a broken monetary system to think that that was a profitable thing. It was profitable on paper, denominated and the hyperinflating currency. Yes.
But but it's not in a sound monetary system.
And so the sooner you realize that and you stop the frugal spending and malinvestment,
you're gonna,
make, make new heights in outperforming
and generating a return.
So ultimately this isn't really rocket science, you know, be useful,
save your money, only invest what you can actually do in, into
profitable ventures that that return more than than you've spent.
And and, you know, those very simple,
business and accounting,
obvious points,
are are absolutely valid. And they become even more valid when when you apply them with the lens of of Bitcoin. Huge.
In addition to that,
are there
if we if we the the money is the thing for certain.
And as you say, if it's not part of your treasury strategy, then then you're losing. Other freedom technologies, be it Noster or other,
are there put you put you on the spot a bit here, but are there categories of opportunity
that you see
if in the scenario that we see playing out, there's an increasing
breakdown of centralized entities? You know,
ex Twitter undergoes massive DDoS attack.
Those of us on Nostra are happily communicating, you know, and and admittedly our small sphere,
but we think growing.
So
are there
shifts of that nature
that are coming,
that are disruptive for certain, and that you see opening up perhaps other opportunities
in addition to hold the right money, hold sound money? Yeah. There there's a lot of useful business. Right?
Always has been and always will be. Humans have a lot of problems. We're very,
troubled creatures, so to say,
which sucks to one extent because, well, we have to suffer through the problems. But on the other hand, it's a huge opportunity,
to provide entrepreneurial services and fix those problems.
Food, you know, that's, that's a big, big industry. And it got completely wrecked,
absolutely
incredibly wrecked,
in, in the last, you know, hundred years again since the money printer has been going.
So produce real food, you know, not overproduced
toxic chemical bullshit, but
sell beef jerky, you know, beef and salt,
dry it, and that's done. That's that's all you need for for a proper product.
And, and, you know, that's a massive, massive industry.
The healthcare system obviously,
is, is primarily designed to, to make us sick and to keep us patient as a patient,
and, and to keep buying more and more medicines and expensive treatments.
Provide services that make people healthy.
That's like, you know,
people don't like to die and people don't like to be sick. So that's, again, another evergreen opportunity to provide,
very valuable products that will be bought like crazy. If you have a a nontoxic,
actually healing,
technologies, that that's massive. Right?
The banking, I would say as well. Like, yeah,
we don't we don't like banks at the moment because they are creatures of the state and and crony and and heavily involved in the theft.
But they don't have to be. Banking is a beautiful,
and ethical venture. I think Marie Rothbard,
is excellent on this point. The Mystery of Banking, a phenomenal book,
that goes under all the numerous ways that banks can be useful, right? So provide banking services on top of Bitcoin, right? We're starting to see that slowly,
with the BitCredit protocol, by the way. It's a bill of exchange protocol on top of Bitcoin and Nostr and eCash.
So, you know, we have money warehousing banks now with eCash,
both centralized
or single issuer
entities like Cashier or even federated
money warehouses like Fedimint,
which by the way, federated money warehouses
were also invented
by the guy who wrote the second realm and
received the first book, on PGP.
So just to show you that, like, one random dude,
can can really change the world,
substantially. The William Gibson quote,
the future is here. It's just not evenly distributed.
William Gibson, Bruce Sterling, I forget which. But so often timing is everything, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. So,
maybe architecture. You know, people like, boxes.
We create boxes all the time. We live in boxes.
So build beautiful boxes.
And in all the again, the list of
real,
honest,
good work that has to be done is substantial.
And, it extends far across the digital domain. Right?
And,
hopefully with time
and Bitcoin and Nostra continuing to grow and expand and other digital tools, it will help us to reprioritize
our our physical meet space work as well.
Another one, of course, is secure facilities.
And we we don't like to be, stolen from or or physically hurt. So providing safe spaces,
is is a great opportunity. And that goes, you know, in in in small scales, like a hotel or a restaurant,
but it goes larger. I think, private cities, charter cities
are gonna be massive in in this coming year over the years. Claim new territory. Go out and seastead the oceans. You know, build vessels that never have to dock on land and and create entire new living spaces out on the huge ocean. And the list of great business models is endless. So if you're lacking ideas,
hit me up.
I love that we've gone from beef jerky to seasteading.
That's fantastic.
And I think the takeaway
that I have and and and love about these conversations
is there is tremendous hope. There is vast opportunity.
And for any of the,
hurdles, be they cognitive or otherwise, that we need to cross to get there,
it is absolutely worth it.
Max, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for your time. It's been a delight. I hope we get to pick this up, again soon.
For those not familiar, and I'll certainly be sure these are in the show notes, where can
should we follow you and your work? Yeah. I'm,
exclusively posting on Nostr these days. So you can find my public key on max at towardsliberty.com.
And,
yeah. So,
follow me there. Hit me up with with any questions,
and support the projects that that really deserve it. We've we've mentioned a lot of them already,
and and and there are many more. And and and maybe specifically, if if you need any help with creating and,
a digital setup to to protect your your Bitcoin and and really want to get some hands on
consulting on on how to,
traverse this path,
and these different technologies,
you can find my consulting work at soundmoneysolutions.io.
And that goes for for,
individuals as well as institutions
who would like to explore their their Bitcoin strategy a bit further.
Fantastic.
Thanks again so much, Max. Talk to you soon.
Yeah. Thanks, Ron, for the invite. This was a really fun conversation, and I'm looking forward to hear, the other episodes that you got, planned here. This is a great podcast. Alright.
Thanks. Pleasure. Thanks, Max.