1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,899 Yaël, good to see you. Welcome. Thank you so so much, Sean. 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:08,980 Absolutely. So before we got going, 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,059 I I have to put you on stage for a moment and and ask about 4 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:15,975 the last time you picked up that guitar and what you played. 5 00:00:16,695 --> 00:00:24,155 Oh, the last time I picked it up, so I I play basically some French Canadian songs, Elvis songs, and then, 6 00:00:25,015 --> 00:00:52,675 probably the show that my daughters are watching, whatever the theme song is, I'll I'll try to find the tab or the chords and play it for them. So it's it's probably one of these, and it'd probably be fairly embarrassing to admit here. So would there be no live streams or rather, live live performances today? Not here. I mean, if we wanna do something later, you know, there's that's why I love podcasting two point o. There's all kinds of musical shows now streaming. Yeah. Might be an idea. Absolutely. And I'm a drummer. I, you know, I I don't have a kit in the back, but, 7 00:00:53,135 --> 00:00:58,894 there does seem to be a fantastic overlap between those broadly in tech, and we'll talk about your background a bit, 8 00:00:59,855 --> 00:01:02,434 and musicians. Well well, speaking of background, 9 00:01:02,870 --> 00:01:07,590 and certainly, yeah, I'll I'll include relevant links in the show notes. I mean, what I found interesting 10 00:01:08,550 --> 00:01:09,770 I believe you're Canadian? 11 00:01:10,390 --> 00:01:15,050 French Canadian. Yes. French Canadian, most specifically. I know you got your career start in Montreal. 12 00:01:15,755 --> 00:01:23,695 Indeed. Yes. Fantastic. I I lived in Toronto for ten years and had a lot of really great times. Totally different country if you ask me, but yes. Yes. 13 00:01:24,155 --> 00:01:27,774 I know. I know. And it and it and it feels that way in a great way. 14 00:01:29,060 --> 00:01:34,200 But you've got what to me is a quite interesting perspective for a number of reasons, one of which is, 15 00:01:35,380 --> 00:01:36,360 Canadian citizen 16 00:01:36,740 --> 00:01:37,799 living in Europe. 17 00:01:39,140 --> 00:01:39,640 And 18 00:01:40,259 --> 00:01:42,899 with Consumer Choice Center, certainly, I know you are, 19 00:01:43,814 --> 00:01:45,354 you take a global lens, 20 00:01:45,814 --> 00:01:46,875 but in in 21 00:01:47,255 --> 00:01:48,935 the work that I followed with, 22 00:01:49,335 --> 00:01:53,115 or from you in the last, say, six or so months since we've been connecting on Noster 23 00:01:53,575 --> 00:01:54,475 has been understandably 24 00:01:55,174 --> 00:01:56,715 US focused. And so, 25 00:01:57,015 --> 00:01:58,314 you know, with that, 26 00:01:59,030 --> 00:02:00,810 given given that interesting background, 27 00:02:02,070 --> 00:02:06,409 and, actually, I'll I'll refer to a couple of quotes that I that I plucked that I thought were quite interesting. 28 00:02:06,869 --> 00:02:08,230 In 2022, 29 00:02:08,230 --> 00:02:10,569 let's just dive straight into a hotbed. 30 00:02:11,110 --> 00:02:14,890 Quote, if the pandemic taught us anything about public perceptions of risk, 31 00:02:15,485 --> 00:02:19,585 it is that we must empower individuals to improve their own situation 32 00:02:20,205 --> 00:02:22,305 rather than making it for them. 33 00:02:23,245 --> 00:02:30,065 I thought that was quite powerful. And and then in December of the same year, you know, you're arguing in a different 34 00:02:30,470 --> 00:02:33,530 category of of risk post FTX collapse. 35 00:02:34,470 --> 00:02:41,530 The statement was the answer to preventing the next FTX lies less in creating convoluted regulatory environments 36 00:02:42,150 --> 00:02:43,290 and more in applying 37 00:02:43,875 --> 00:02:50,614 existing laws while promoting a pathway for legitimate entrepreneurship. So I call those out and I set that stage to say, 38 00:02:51,155 --> 00:02:52,855 you have, as I as I noted, 39 00:02:53,875 --> 00:02:55,015 a broad perspective 40 00:02:55,875 --> 00:02:56,375 on 41 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,180 consumer choice and what that means. 42 00:02:59,879 --> 00:03:03,739 Could you give us sort of a state of the union 43 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:05,659 on the balance of power 44 00:03:05,959 --> 00:03:11,685 and the position or place of trust on a continuum between institutions and individuals? What is I think it's, 45 00:03:12,085 --> 00:03:17,625 very interesting in that we have organized our societies, obviously, to live under different 46 00:03:17,925 --> 00:03:19,865 types and systems of of governments. 47 00:03:20,325 --> 00:03:22,345 And I have, as you mentioned, 48 00:03:22,670 --> 00:03:35,010 have had the, privilege or unfortunate circumstance of having grown up under many different governments. I was born in Canada, grew up in The US, and I've been living in Austria for the past decade or so. So I've been able to see how 49 00:03:35,475 --> 00:03:37,255 different institutions in these countries 50 00:03:37,875 --> 00:03:50,455 trust their citizens, enshrining the rights of their citizens, and just generally the approach and the freedom that they allow the citizens. And what I've kind of noticed, and it's just a general trend, is we have probably for the last 51 00:03:50,770 --> 00:03:55,590 two decades or so seen that our institutions are much more involved in our lives, 52 00:03:56,210 --> 00:03:59,910 much more so than they ever were for our parents or grandparents or even before. 53 00:04:00,290 --> 00:04:01,910 And there's this moralization 54 00:04:02,690 --> 00:04:08,285 that has come up, and everyone has morals. Everyone has personal morals. Everyone has personal ethics. 55 00:04:08,665 --> 00:04:12,925 But a lot of that has sort of been extrapolated and given to governments 56 00:04:13,305 --> 00:04:15,485 who, unlike private companies, 57 00:04:15,865 --> 00:04:27,660 actually have power over us in that we have to pay taxes. They kinda set the rules for how we're able to invest or where we have to send our kids to school. And we've kinda seen this, sort of a morph 58 00:04:28,280 --> 00:04:31,979 into each of our lives, and it depends on the government. I think the pandemic, 59 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:48,365 that example that you mentioned, was really an example for everyone to notice. How is my state or my county or my country dealing with this, and are they allowing me as an individual, as a citizen, or as a consumer enough trust to deal with the situation? 60 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:50,880 And that's where, you know, in my native, 61 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:52,260 province of Quebec, 62 00:04:52,800 --> 00:05:04,005 it was a terrible idea if you wanted to be an individual and go outside and try to enjoy a little bit of life even on your own. They made it very difficult. There were all kinds of different penalties. There was a curfew. 63 00:05:05,105 --> 00:05:10,805 You know, a lot of times, I was in North Carolina or in Florida, and there was very different, and it was much more open. 64 00:05:11,345 --> 00:05:11,845 Austria, 65 00:05:12,385 --> 00:05:13,125 much worse. 66 00:05:13,665 --> 00:05:43,014 The masks were obligated basically from March of twenty twenty. Very early on, you needed to have your vaccination pass in order to go to the equivalent of, like, the Best Buy, the electronic store. So there just was not a lot of trust. It was just a lot of power that was given to government. And I think over time, we've just kind of allowed this to happen. And there are communities and people that will go against it. I think I'm I'm always very fascinated by communities like the Amish or the, Orthodox Jewish, the Hasidic 67 00:05:43,540 --> 00:05:53,480 community that's either in New York or Montreal. These are communities that are self self sustaining. They kind of exist outside or parallel to the normal government structures, 68 00:05:53,940 --> 00:05:58,040 and they still thrive. And they exist as communities, and it's voluntary. 69 00:05:58,414 --> 00:05:59,315 And I think that's 70 00:06:00,255 --> 00:06:12,914 where really, that's how we've so many different groups around the world have been able to flourish. And one thing that I'm very passionate about, and I hope we can continue to build on that, we can reverse the trend of sort of growing government power over our decisions 71 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:18,580 because I think we, as individuals, know best exactly what's what's perfect for us, for our families, 72 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:20,820 and for those in our community. So, obviously, 73 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:26,820 bit of a convoluted way around it. But, yeah, I think it comes down to trusting the individual. 74 00:06:27,375 --> 00:06:28,675 Absolutely. And I think 75 00:06:29,295 --> 00:06:32,915 were you at times during lockdowns, were you in Quebec? 76 00:06:33,535 --> 00:06:35,795 No. I was only in Austria. Yeah. 77 00:06:36,495 --> 00:06:41,475 So I was because I'm also an American citizen and Canadian citizen, I was able to travel. 78 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:48,620 Canada was very bad just because they had this, entire system where you have to stay in a hotel for, I don't know, up to two or three weeks. Recall. 79 00:06:49,240 --> 00:07:05,634 It was very bad. I missed, you know, two funerals for my grandparents because of that reason. And, you know, that was the kind of thing that really made you aware that this is the stuff that restricts your movements. You know, there's a great Austrian writer, that many people might know, Stefan Zweig. 80 00:07:06,095 --> 00:07:06,895 He's sort of, 81 00:07:07,375 --> 00:07:12,995 his works for the Grand Budapest Hotel is what the, Wes Anderson movie is. It's based on his writings. 82 00:07:13,669 --> 00:07:18,490 And and he wrote about in the the first World War, that was really the first time that we had passports, 83 00:07:19,030 --> 00:07:23,370 and we had the ability to stop people from going over borders and traveling. 84 00:07:23,750 --> 00:07:32,604 And it was really there that he became very depressed with how society was going, how liberalism was going, because all of these countries were erecting barriers. 85 00:07:33,145 --> 00:07:34,205 It wasn't wartime, 86 00:07:34,745 --> 00:07:42,700 but those barriers never came down. And it led to what was before this flourishing human experience. If you had the means, you could travel. 87 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:53,320 But, really, since then, we've put a lock on that. And then during the pandemic, you know, those walls became iron gates very high, you know, stopping people from traveling fully. And, 88 00:07:54,175 --> 00:08:15,289 yeah. Now we're in 2025. Things are a bit different, but I think many of us still have that in our collective memory because it was only a few years ago. Absolutely. And I I was in Morocco. My wife is Morocco, and we without, you know, going to too much detail, we were effectively stuck there for about a year. And as an American citizen, for example, couldn't even pop over to Spain. I spent 89 00:08:15,590 --> 00:08:17,449 ten wonderful years living in Toronto. 90 00:08:18,550 --> 00:08:23,370 Had I have dear very dear friends there that that, it just became impossible 91 00:08:24,235 --> 00:08:29,215 practically to visit, and so we all have those stories. And I think, you know, from that, 92 00:08:29,595 --> 00:08:33,214 whether it is your work or or broadly, 93 00:08:33,995 --> 00:08:35,615 at the Consumer Choice Center, 94 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,779 did that affect has that affected 95 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:44,779 the focus of the organization in your work as deputy director? Like, what did that inject into the mission, 96 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,135 or or were you were already on that path? 97 00:08:48,775 --> 00:09:15,800 Yeah. I mean, our organization when we founded it, you know, we were just a couple of, I would say, liberty minded individuals who were upset at the status quo and wanted to defend the rights of consumers who want cool stuff, who like technology, who like to travel, who like cheap things, who like to experiment, and, yes, take some risk as it were. Yeah. And I think it it it didn't necessarily change our mission, but it it it definitely made it much more important. And 98 00:09:16,155 --> 00:09:23,135 I thought it was a perfect opportunity to also argue for liberalization, and we did see that. You know, there are a lot of US states that, 99 00:09:23,755 --> 00:09:24,495 you have, 100 00:09:24,955 --> 00:09:30,655 state controlled liquor boards. You know, you have all this kind of thing. And many of those different rules were relaxed 101 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:32,980 throughout the pandemic because they realized, 102 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:44,740 oh my. This is actually not helping our citizenry. It's actually much more expensive and makes things much more difficult. So we did see a lot of relaxation there. We saw a little bit of relaxation when it came to 103 00:09:45,375 --> 00:10:00,170 investing and money, and people were throwing their stimulus checks into things like Bitcoin and different meme coins and all the rest. So some things were kind of liberalized, and that's what we were kind of working on behind the scenes as much as possible is creating frameworks, model policies, 104 00:10:01,029 --> 00:10:03,930 you know, putting together press statements, meeting with politicians, 105 00:10:04,470 --> 00:10:18,315 giving examples of how look. Right now, there's this pandemic. Things are going on. We're not gonna be able to control all of this, but you do have at your control as a policymaker, let's say, the ability to make x and y product cheaper and more accessible, 106 00:10:18,935 --> 00:10:27,980 and that will improve the lives of consumers. So we we did that a little bit. There's all kinds of categories of certain things. Some things obviously got worse, but I think overall, 107 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:35,660 we're much better for it. And once again, with that collective memory in mind, I hope we'll remain vigilant if this ever happens again. 108 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:41,225 Great great point. And I I, among other things, noted on the consumer choice center's website that one of 109 00:10:41,685 --> 00:10:44,505 the areas of focus was fun police. 110 00:10:45,205 --> 00:10:46,964 And, I take your point that, 111 00:10:47,525 --> 00:10:51,065 you know, there's been a lot of fun policing. And I found it interesting, 112 00:10:51,605 --> 00:10:53,385 and this is, I think, a segue into 113 00:10:54,380 --> 00:10:57,360 the next point I'd like to to discuss with you. 114 00:10:58,700 --> 00:11:01,920 I appreciate the fact that if I understand correctly, 115 00:11:02,779 --> 00:11:04,800 you and the organization are advocating 116 00:11:05,580 --> 00:11:07,040 for, say, things like 117 00:11:08,024 --> 00:11:08,524 vaping. 118 00:11:08,904 --> 00:11:15,565 The and I I I won't make the statement that bluntly or simply, and I'll ask you to add some nuance. But the point being 119 00:11:16,185 --> 00:11:20,640 risk, I'm not a smoker. You know? As as with most, I've I've seen that 120 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:22,660 wreak havoc on my on my 121 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:23,860 on my family, 122 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,820 and so we all have our position on that. But, ultimately, 123 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:33,460 I I stand with, you know, the the position that it's the individual's choice. And so 124 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:35,380 talk to me a little bit about 125 00:11:36,245 --> 00:11:36,745 where 126 00:11:38,565 --> 00:11:47,225 that sweet spot is. Yeah. I think, you bring up the example of vaping, and I think that's one that's very important. We're talking about vaping nicotine, not necessarily THC. 127 00:11:47,780 --> 00:11:56,040 But this is an industry and a device, and and we sort of see it now as this huge conglomerate industry. You know, but this was started by a couple of hackers. 128 00:11:56,820 --> 00:12:02,440 There was originally a a Chinese pharmacist who had created this kind of prototype, and then 129 00:12:02,774 --> 00:12:06,235 you had a lot of of more tech focused guys who figured out how to 130 00:12:06,615 --> 00:12:07,514 have aerosols 131 00:12:07,975 --> 00:12:15,115 kind of being pushing through nicotine with flavor. This was created as an experiment. It's something that came up out of the market to give people an alternative 132 00:12:15,735 --> 00:12:17,035 to smoking cigarettes, 133 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:28,140 to actually having to burn tobacco leaves on fire, inhale it, and feel the nicotine that they're addicted to. And the market and these tinkerers and these entrepreneurs 134 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:37,875 created an alternative, and it actually has, as we know from all the studies now, improved people's lives, and it's removed that element of harm that existed. 135 00:12:38,255 --> 00:12:49,530 So most of our activism related to that is just just let people access this. You know, there are entire countries where vaping is banned, and I can tell you about the influence of Michael Bloomberg and all of his different philanthropies 136 00:12:50,070 --> 00:12:51,370 kind of doing that and 137 00:12:52,070 --> 00:12:55,210 how harmful that's been. But in many jurisdictions, 138 00:12:55,670 --> 00:13:02,175 The US, Canada, many parts of Europe, you know, we're more open to these technologies, and people are using them. There's consumer 139 00:13:02,555 --> 00:13:03,055 uptake, 140 00:13:03,595 --> 00:13:12,015 and people are balancing that risk. You have a place like Sweden where, you know, you had tobacco use, which was very high many, many decades ago. 141 00:13:12,390 --> 00:13:17,530 They tend to use more snus and some of these other products. They found ways to use nicotine, 142 00:13:17,990 --> 00:13:30,295 which people like or people are addicted to, and they were able to consume it in a less harmful way. And that's something the market delivered. Right? It was not a public health institution organization and antiplate 143 00:13:31,395 --> 00:13:43,130 type character centrally planning this in some government bureau. It was the market that delivered it, and now consumers are choosing that. So I think, look, as an individual, you have the absolute right to go out and buy, 144 00:13:43,990 --> 00:13:49,530 a pack of cigars or cigarettes just as you can buy a lottery ticket, just as you can buy, you know, a liter of whiskey. 145 00:13:50,084 --> 00:13:57,305 And you have to practice, if I can go back to Plato and Aristotle, practice your own version of of sort of moderation 146 00:13:58,165 --> 00:14:11,100 and figuring out the balance and understanding risk. And we can have as many educational programs and schools about it, but we have to trust people at the end of the day. Because if we don't allow adults to make their own decisions, 147 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:16,139 then essentially, it's just some centrally controlled machine or computer nowadays 148 00:14:16,519 --> 00:14:20,540 that will decide for us. And we lose our free will, we lose our autonomy, 149 00:14:20,975 --> 00:14:39,990 and we basically lose the ability to live flourishing lives. And I think that's that's one thing that at least the vaping debate or nicotine pouch debate, it kind of personifies to me. This is just one small area, and many people won't care about this. Most people, you know, who've never smoked or never, touched any tobacco in their lives, it's not a big deal. 150 00:14:40,370 --> 00:14:59,835 But for people who are addicted and are packing, you know, two, three packs of cigarettes for a week or whatever it might be, this is life changing. And to show that there is an alternative path, that some kind of free enterprise system has delivered this, it's something to celebrate. And, far too often, we see too many people who denigrate 151 00:15:00,295 --> 00:15:03,195 technology and all the great things that it brings for us. 152 00:15:03,510 --> 00:15:16,650 Believe me, I'm skeptical of many technologies as well. Sometimes they do go too far, but here, we've actually seen dividends for people's health and people's choices, and I think that's great. That is great. And I I I raised that, and and, 153 00:15:16,995 --> 00:15:19,495 not surprisingly, you've illustrated that wonderfully 154 00:15:20,115 --> 00:15:21,015 that it is 155 00:15:22,115 --> 00:15:29,975 for many perhaps an edge case. You know? Well, why would we? Why would we provide that opportunity, that choice? It's harmful, etcetera, etcetera. But I think it does 156 00:15:30,595 --> 00:15:31,095 characterize 157 00:15:31,780 --> 00:15:32,600 or personify 158 00:15:33,220 --> 00:15:36,600 that individual choice. And I think that that takes me to 159 00:15:36,980 --> 00:15:37,960 a question of, 160 00:15:38,420 --> 00:15:43,560 you know, your your work is all about handing the reins to the individuals as we've just discussed. 161 00:15:44,385 --> 00:15:48,005 On balance, who do today's consumers trust 162 00:15:49,505 --> 00:15:55,205 and why? Take peers, you know, peers, their own peers, people in their networks, people they know. 163 00:15:55,585 --> 00:16:00,005 We're much more likely to try something new, if it's in our social circle. 164 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,380 We're much more inclined to 165 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:08,460 get interested into something like Bitcoin if somebody we know and we trust talks about it or, 166 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,620 has Bitcoin on them or perhaps it's some new technology, 167 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:24,635 new type of computer. I mean, we see it as well sociologically with people who have iPhones versus Androids. Right? It'll depend on your social network. It'll depend on who you're in contact with. So I think there's a lot there. 168 00:16:25,095 --> 00:16:29,435 I think for the younger generation, there's a lot of trust that's placed into 169 00:16:30,009 --> 00:16:35,949 what we, unfortunately, would dub influencers and people online. And we can have all types of different 170 00:16:36,490 --> 00:16:39,149 people who are discussing topics or technologies, 171 00:16:39,850 --> 00:16:53,865 and we can learn from their experiences. I mean, I definitely have, particularly in, let's say, the the Bitcoin or the privacy space, I've learned a lot from people who do content and do reviews and show how technologies work and how one thing might be an advantage. 172 00:16:54,245 --> 00:16:56,185 And I think that sort of peer 173 00:16:56,805 --> 00:16:57,305 system 174 00:16:57,685 --> 00:17:00,780 is really what gives me, as an individual, 175 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,660 most of my recommendations and what I follow. 176 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:14,845 And I think that's one great beautiful thing about the Internet is that it is global, and you can be connected with these people. They don't have to be right there in your neighborhood. It could be just a certain corner of the Internet, 177 00:17:15,145 --> 00:17:18,365 and that I think has provided so much wealth and so much value 178 00:17:18,745 --> 00:17:21,865 for everyone and and really has improved our lives. So it's, 179 00:17:22,585 --> 00:17:25,885 we we have to keep protecting the free and open Internet always. 180 00:17:26,539 --> 00:17:31,360 Always. Always. Well, you know, I I did not hear you name institutions or brands. 181 00:17:32,140 --> 00:17:39,840 Are are is is that out the window in terms of consumer trust? And I presume the older the age bracket, the more perhaps it shifts. 182 00:17:40,220 --> 00:17:41,760 What what's your take on 183 00:17:42,455 --> 00:17:43,595 where institutions 184 00:17:43,975 --> 00:17:46,635 or or brands fall in that spectrum? 185 00:17:47,415 --> 00:17:55,275 Well, we definitely see it with social media. Right? We're much more drawn to individuals than institutions. We're much more likely to read the words of someone who, 186 00:17:55,840 --> 00:18:01,539 let's say, is a a top opinion writer at The Wall Street Journal, let's say. Right? Whatever whatever outlet you prefer. 187 00:18:02,159 --> 00:18:05,220 We're much more attuned to what they say as an individual, 188 00:18:05,759 --> 00:18:10,419 knowing that they have likes and dislikes, and they have a bias, and they're human characters, 189 00:18:10,915 --> 00:18:14,375 much more so than just what The Wall Street Journal says, for instance. 190 00:18:14,835 --> 00:18:17,875 And it's the same with many different companies. You know, we just are 191 00:18:18,675 --> 00:18:22,855 as human beings, we're just much more likely to follow people 192 00:18:23,250 --> 00:18:27,270 knowing all of their flaws, knowing that they also have to deal with the same 193 00:18:27,730 --> 00:18:33,510 logic and the the balance of risk. You know? I think we're just much more as human beings apt to follow that. 194 00:18:33,810 --> 00:18:43,535 And, yeah, it is not institutions. And that that was something that we've learned through the pandemic, and we learned through all types of different financial crises is, do you trust institutions 195 00:18:43,995 --> 00:18:45,855 only? Do you trust people? 196 00:18:46,155 --> 00:18:48,735 Do you trust, you know, those who are in your peer network? 197 00:18:49,195 --> 00:18:52,495 I think we we can learn a lot from particularly how 198 00:18:52,850 --> 00:18:57,830 we're put in those situations and who to follow. And so I don't I think there's still room, 199 00:18:58,210 --> 00:18:59,910 obviously, to trust institutions, 200 00:19:00,370 --> 00:19:01,590 but they have to have 201 00:19:02,050 --> 00:19:02,550 values. 202 00:19:02,930 --> 00:19:05,910 They have to have people who are smart and intelligent 203 00:19:06,895 --> 00:19:13,395 and that we can identify with as human beings to ultimately gain that trust. It's very hard to trust a faceless organization. 204 00:19:14,095 --> 00:19:16,915 Always better to have good, smart people there working there too. 205 00:19:17,295 --> 00:19:19,295 You you took the words right out of my mouth. 206 00:19:20,415 --> 00:19:21,555 And I think in 207 00:19:22,910 --> 00:19:27,169 in that vein, let's talk about the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, the CFPB, 208 00:19:29,950 --> 00:19:33,890 which, you know, you have spoken out, with regard to and certainly 209 00:19:34,750 --> 00:19:35,410 it is 210 00:19:35,785 --> 00:19:39,485 correct me in the process of being largely or wholly dismantled 211 00:19:39,785 --> 00:19:40,605 in the current, 212 00:19:41,145 --> 00:19:43,405 US administration. What does 213 00:19:45,065 --> 00:19:48,445 the public or otherwise visible tug of war between 214 00:19:49,650 --> 00:19:50,710 rules and innovation, 215 00:19:51,090 --> 00:19:53,350 and you've called out technology specifically, 216 00:19:53,730 --> 00:19:55,830 what does that do to the public's faith 217 00:19:56,370 --> 00:19:58,310 in the sort of scaffolding 218 00:19:59,090 --> 00:20:03,750 that typically we have all leaned on, watching that play out? What does that what does that do 219 00:20:04,355 --> 00:20:05,975 to a consumer's perspective? 220 00:20:06,915 --> 00:20:09,015 I didn't know you were going there, but that's a great question. 221 00:20:09,395 --> 00:20:10,375 I think, overall, 222 00:20:12,115 --> 00:20:23,740 what what a lot of government institutions do is they attach a name to it, and, you know, this goes back to Fritz Lake Bastia. You know? Just because the the state says it does a certain thing and that it's its intention, 223 00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:30,860 it doesn't mean that that's the result. So it's called the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, and the idea is that we protect consumers. 224 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:56,929 And I think most people take that at face value. Certainly, I would say with the the social media hate that I got after writing and speaking about CFPB and why we're probably right to defang it, I I think people just see that as institution and take it for granted. It's like, okay. Yeah. They're there to protect consumers. It's right. It's it's does what it says on the tin. But as always, you have to look at how is this set up, how does it get its funding, what kind of cases does it do, what's the process. 225 00:20:57,470 --> 00:21:05,435 Let's say I I were screwed as a consumer and something happened. You know, what's the process? What do I have to do? And then it's just also going back to Bastille. 226 00:21:05,815 --> 00:21:07,435 It's the seen and the unseen. 227 00:21:07,815 --> 00:21:12,135 What we see is these kind of record. We say we have $30,000,000,000, 228 00:21:12,135 --> 00:21:18,830 you know, we've returned to consumers, you know, who've been scammed or screwed in some way. Well, that's the scene, but the unseen is that 229 00:21:19,450 --> 00:21:22,430 most of these instances, you know, did not really 230 00:21:22,890 --> 00:21:28,590 level up to that amount. We see that generally with the general litigiousness of The US lawsuit system. 231 00:21:29,044 --> 00:21:31,784 You know, there's all types of lawsuits that are filed against 232 00:21:32,085 --> 00:21:34,184 Apple or Microsoft or Google or 233 00:21:34,485 --> 00:21:35,544 Marriott hotels 234 00:21:36,005 --> 00:21:37,065 every single day. 235 00:21:37,445 --> 00:21:42,904 Many of them don't have merit, and it's somebody who, you know, whatever slipped by the pool because they were running 236 00:21:43,399 --> 00:21:46,299 or, you know, they messed up their device in some way. 237 00:21:46,679 --> 00:22:01,735 And in the at least US society, we've just kind of allowed, alright. We'll let these things happen. We'll settle a few, and that'll just get rid of the annoyance. We don't wanna go to court. We don't wanna battle. That's what CFPB was kind of doing is that it would look at certain players in the financial 238 00:22:02,195 --> 00:22:02,695 markets, 239 00:22:03,235 --> 00:22:09,095 those who offer financial products to consumers, and it would just launch a lawsuit and then hope they would settle. 240 00:22:09,630 --> 00:22:12,450 And you you didn't really have too many actual settled, 241 00:22:13,470 --> 00:22:20,770 lawsuits that were you had a ruling by a judge. Most of it was just settlements. So that's how they got a bunch of money, built up a war chest, 242 00:22:21,310 --> 00:22:33,625 and many of the new innovators, guys who are working with fintech, people who are working with cryptocurrencies, who would like to offer some type of banking system or some ability to use different layers like lightning or liquid. 243 00:22:34,245 --> 00:22:38,185 If they wanted to bring their product to market, they knew they would be right 244 00:22:38,490 --> 00:22:39,710 in the crosshairs 245 00:22:40,010 --> 00:22:41,550 of an agency like CFPB. 246 00:22:42,090 --> 00:22:44,670 So you have documented instances of innovators 247 00:22:45,130 --> 00:22:47,630 holding back their products or their vision 248 00:22:48,010 --> 00:22:54,955 because they're scared of how the government will intervene and regulate them. I think that's what CFPB represents. There are already mechanisms 249 00:22:55,415 --> 00:22:56,075 in society 250 00:22:56,455 --> 00:22:57,915 to crack down on fraud, 251 00:22:58,535 --> 00:23:07,960 on abuse, on, you know, deception when it comes to consumers. We already have agencies. We already have laws. This was a particular agency created just a decade ago 252 00:23:08,420 --> 00:23:10,040 that became this bonafide, 253 00:23:10,820 --> 00:23:15,880 sort of hero of post financial crisis, but really was just an extraction machine. 254 00:23:16,260 --> 00:23:19,880 And, you know, it's it's hard in the world of public policy sometimes to 255 00:23:20,284 --> 00:23:22,784 explain that, because you're dealing with 256 00:23:23,164 --> 00:23:33,745 an organization that has a good reputation at least online. They bring money, but we have to look at the institutional, the structural things, and, like, Bastia, the seen and the unseen, which, unfortunately, in public policy, 257 00:23:34,070 --> 00:23:37,290 most people are very happy, and you just casually put that away. 258 00:23:38,230 --> 00:23:39,210 And and I'm 259 00:23:39,510 --> 00:23:44,650 guessing this goes to the to the core, to the heart of the work that that that you and the team do. 260 00:23:45,510 --> 00:23:50,535 How important is it to raise consciousness awareness of, in this case, CFPB and its 261 00:23:51,315 --> 00:23:51,815 arguable 262 00:23:52,195 --> 00:23:55,895 pointlessness, if not if not harm? Is it worthwhile work 263 00:23:56,995 --> 00:23:57,495 to 264 00:23:59,475 --> 00:24:02,135 direct consumers, to to direct individuals 265 00:24:02,435 --> 00:24:02,935 to, 266 00:24:04,890 --> 00:24:10,590 those organizations, those institutions perhaps that that are on mission and do deserve trust, 267 00:24:11,370 --> 00:24:11,870 or 268 00:24:12,410 --> 00:24:18,910 maybe cynically is it a lost cause because everyone's tuned out? Well, I think it is worth it only because 269 00:24:19,414 --> 00:24:29,755 not everybody is motivated to do that type of work, and not everybody is willing to question the status quo. And I think that's what most people need more of is they need a healthy skepticism 270 00:24:30,855 --> 00:24:32,154 of centralized power. 271 00:24:32,620 --> 00:24:40,159 Notice I said centralized power. I did not say just government power or private power. We just need to have skepticism of people who have power and 272 00:24:40,460 --> 00:24:47,520 those institutions and how they're created. And I think that's kind of what has always motivated me and definitely motivates my colleagues, 273 00:24:47,885 --> 00:24:56,625 and we just need to have that awareness. I think that's why I started out my career as a journalist. I was very passionate about it. You know, it's one of the only jobs 274 00:24:57,085 --> 00:24:58,545 that exist in the constitution. 275 00:24:59,165 --> 00:25:00,865 Freedom of the press, first amendment. 276 00:25:01,570 --> 00:25:09,830 And the ability to have a check on centralized power is, I think, one of the best things that we've been able to, at least in Western liberal democracies, 277 00:25:10,450 --> 00:25:15,750 been able to protect because it means that we have an alternative narrative from that just to power. 278 00:25:16,105 --> 00:25:28,205 And if you have organizations such as mine or many others that do great work, I think we need to have that. We need to be able to keep people in check. You know, the pricing mechanism is one way that you keep things in check on the private market. 279 00:25:28,570 --> 00:25:30,110 How do you judge institutions? 280 00:25:30,730 --> 00:25:36,750 How do you judge governments? You know, that's why you need logical arguments. You need to have political debates. You need to have 281 00:25:37,370 --> 00:25:45,875 analysis about what they're affecting, how much they cost. I think you do need to have that. And I think a lot of the work that I do, again, I view it as an extension of just 282 00:25:46,255 --> 00:25:46,755 journalism 283 00:25:47,055 --> 00:25:51,315 and uncovering the truth and being sure to practice that freedom of the press 284 00:25:51,775 --> 00:25:53,315 that, at least in The US constitution 285 00:25:53,615 --> 00:25:54,355 for now, 286 00:25:54,655 --> 00:25:55,395 is protected 287 00:25:55,940 --> 00:26:00,600 and recognized. There's a lot there. I, there's a hundred questions I could ask you, but 288 00:26:01,140 --> 00:26:02,520 let's let's shift a bit 289 00:26:03,940 --> 00:26:10,120 to Bitcoin Policy Institute. You are a visiting fellow and have been, I believe, since '22, '20 '3? 290 00:26:11,185 --> 00:26:13,845 '20 '3. But I'm now a fellow. I'm no longer physicist. I'm brilliant. 291 00:26:14,225 --> 00:26:19,045 Excellent. Well, I I just have to I have the great pleasure of counting Steven Pollock as a dear friend. 292 00:26:19,665 --> 00:26:21,765 Big big fan of his, big fan of the organization, 293 00:26:22,305 --> 00:26:24,005 have been delighted to support them. 294 00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:28,220 You know, we we've talked so far quite a bit about how policy 295 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,860 lags or stumbles behind tech, 296 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,020 especially with things like Bitcoin. 297 00:26:33,799 --> 00:26:34,860 At least half 298 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,059 of the political apparatus in The US 299 00:26:38,524 --> 00:26:40,065 had been hoping to kill it. 300 00:26:41,325 --> 00:26:42,865 And we've we've mentioned CFPB. 301 00:26:44,365 --> 00:26:47,904 How does that lag between policy and technology innovation 302 00:26:48,524 --> 00:26:50,225 sort of shape the 303 00:26:50,764 --> 00:26:51,585 street cred 304 00:26:52,030 --> 00:26:53,490 of the relevant institutions? 305 00:26:53,870 --> 00:26:56,130 That is a, I think, a pinnacle question. 306 00:26:56,510 --> 00:27:00,210 And, just on Nostra the other day, I published an article, 307 00:27:00,670 --> 00:27:10,075 something about meme coins and, you know, Bitcoin policies, and I had some anons who were not too happy. You know, there are policies. What are you talking about? Policies with cryptocurrencies 308 00:27:10,375 --> 00:27:14,315 and Bitcoin. Yeah. What are you talking about? Protocol. What's policy going on? What are you talking about? 309 00:27:14,774 --> 00:27:16,475 And I think this is where, 310 00:27:16,820 --> 00:27:23,559 you know, most people who are not in the political process, you know, kinda just view Bitcoin policies like, okay. This is what we want government to do. 311 00:27:24,100 --> 00:27:25,960 That's not it. It's the complete opposite. 312 00:27:26,660 --> 00:27:31,640 What people are trying to do who are advocates of a technology like Bitcoin, let's say, 313 00:27:32,205 --> 00:27:32,705 our 314 00:27:33,245 --> 00:27:37,904 role, our goal is to limit the actions of what the government can do. 315 00:27:38,525 --> 00:27:48,679 And that is so different. What we're talking about is not rules to govern individuals' behavior. It's rules to govern the behavior of governmental institutions which restrict our liberties. 316 00:27:48,980 --> 00:27:51,879 And that is for so many people difficult to understand. 317 00:27:52,340 --> 00:27:54,360 It's this kind of positive law 318 00:27:54,820 --> 00:27:57,720 aspect that grew from the progressive era from FDR, 319 00:27:58,100 --> 00:28:03,365 this kind of notion that we need to regulate society, provide the rules, and then people act rather 320 00:28:03,745 --> 00:28:06,245 than the point of the rules is to govern the institutions, 321 00:28:06,625 --> 00:28:08,725 and then the people are free to make their own decisions. 322 00:28:09,025 --> 00:28:11,685 So for especially Bitcoin policy, 323 00:28:12,305 --> 00:28:17,205 Bitcoin can exist and will exist and will be very strong without any government rule. 324 00:28:18,030 --> 00:28:25,010 The problem now is not that there are not enough government rules, it's that the rules that are on the books are themselves restrictive of the technology. 325 00:28:25,870 --> 00:28:28,850 I'll give you an example. It's just for taxation purposes. 326 00:28:29,710 --> 00:28:31,570 If we finish this up and, 327 00:28:31,935 --> 00:28:36,815 you know, I wanna pay you for a video project, and I wanna send you, you know, $2,000 328 00:28:36,815 --> 00:28:37,715 worth of Bitcoin 329 00:28:38,335 --> 00:28:40,355 and you receive that, you technically 330 00:28:40,895 --> 00:28:51,290 have just received money that is a taxable transaction, and you'll have to put that in your IRS kind of tax statement at the end of the year. That is something that's governed by US tax law. 331 00:28:51,830 --> 00:28:55,450 Now how do we change that? What do we do? What's the particular section 332 00:28:55,910 --> 00:28:58,330 that we can do? How can we increase the amount 333 00:28:58,715 --> 00:29:14,255 so that the threshold is much higher so that these kind of transactions are not taxable events, and we can use Bitcoin as intended as just sound money between people as money? And I think that's what a lot of the focus of of Bitcoin policy is. 334 00:29:14,610 --> 00:29:16,150 Do we need positive laws? 335 00:29:16,850 --> 00:29:24,230 You can probably think of some, but most of the time, we just need the government to be restrained and allow individuals and firms to come up with solutions. 336 00:29:24,530 --> 00:29:31,665 I I mentioned the de minimis thing. There's also Mhmm. The ability for banks to hold Bitcoin, the ability for liquidity service providers 337 00:29:32,125 --> 00:29:34,945 to be able to not have to KYC their users. 338 00:29:35,325 --> 00:29:39,025 That is something that restrains them right now and also means that 339 00:29:39,325 --> 00:29:43,665 many of the great lightning products that might exist in Europe don't exist in The United States. 340 00:29:44,045 --> 00:29:45,905 So it's these kind of things to where 341 00:29:46,260 --> 00:29:48,040 the goal is not to 342 00:29:48,580 --> 00:29:57,480 try to craft policy and figure out ways, you know, that the individuals can be better governed to make better decisions about Bitcoin. It's just restraining the government and allowing the protocol 343 00:29:58,020 --> 00:29:59,480 to exist and thrive, 344 00:29:59,955 --> 00:30:02,615 and nobody be penalized for using it, including 345 00:30:03,154 --> 00:30:13,495 developers of technologies like samurai wallet or things on other chains like Tornado Cash. These are just kind of the examples. And some key examples. And this is seen at the state level, by the way, a lot. 346 00:30:14,500 --> 00:30:22,760 This is something that, the left and the right, politically have been very good at. It's called preemption laws. So examples on the right include, 347 00:30:23,539 --> 00:30:24,360 no locality 348 00:30:24,820 --> 00:30:27,720 is allowed to ban plastic bags, for instance. 349 00:30:28,035 --> 00:30:41,895 So this is something that has been put in place in many Republican states. And then you have on the other side, let's say the left, it's okay. No locality is able to ban cannabis sales if we've legalized cannabis. So these are preemption laws instituted at the state level 350 00:30:42,210 --> 00:30:45,429 that, you know, again, are not governing individual behavior. 351 00:30:45,809 --> 00:30:48,950 They're governing the behavior of jurisdictions and institutions 352 00:30:49,490 --> 00:30:52,309 beneath them. And I think that is just a beautiful 353 00:30:52,850 --> 00:30:58,165 part of the American experiment and the way that the constitution is written and how law is structured, 354 00:30:58,625 --> 00:31:02,405 and we've adhered much more to natural law and to restricting institutions, 355 00:31:03,105 --> 00:31:04,565 particularly in sort of 356 00:31:04,945 --> 00:31:05,845 US, Canada, 357 00:31:06,145 --> 00:31:11,845 some parts of Europe, than many other countries. And I think that that is something that we don't talk about enough 358 00:31:12,310 --> 00:31:14,890 is that the American constitution specifically 359 00:31:15,190 --> 00:31:17,050 protects so much of Bitcoin 360 00:31:17,830 --> 00:31:20,970 already. You know, it's not there's no new law needed. 361 00:31:21,270 --> 00:31:32,655 We just take it and apply it to the twenty first century model, and we know that this code is speech, and it is protected. I think the idea it is interesting as I was listening to you to think about 362 00:31:33,355 --> 00:31:33,855 how 363 00:31:34,955 --> 00:31:36,015 foreign alien 364 00:31:36,395 --> 00:31:37,535 the idea of restraint 365 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:43,140 with regard to the government has become at least in in I feel like my circles in The US, 366 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,140 and I think it's a really important point to to clarify 367 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,860 is that much of this work if not all of this work is is focused on restraint. 368 00:31:53,475 --> 00:31:54,695 How much does 369 00:31:55,315 --> 00:31:57,095 the lack of restraint historically 370 00:31:57,475 --> 00:31:57,955 and, 371 00:31:58,355 --> 00:32:01,655 perhaps that changes, how much has that lack of restraint and that 372 00:32:02,195 --> 00:32:04,375 overt involvement, if not interference, 373 00:32:04,835 --> 00:32:11,760 flowed the adoption of Bitcoin? Yeah. I think it's definitely been restricted, and, you know, I was an early local Bitcoins.com 374 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:12,260 user. 375 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:19,040 I was living in in Florida at the time in Saint Petersburg, beautiful city. I was there too much too soon in my life. But, 376 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:21,220 wonderful place. 377 00:32:21,645 --> 00:32:27,825 When I was living there, that's when I got very interested into Bitcoin. You know, it was, like, late two thousand twelve, early '2 thousand '13, 378 00:32:28,285 --> 00:32:29,985 and they had this website, LocalBitcoins. 379 00:32:30,685 --> 00:32:34,490 And, you know, at the time, I think the only website that existed was Coinbase. 380 00:32:34,790 --> 00:32:37,610 But if you wanted to, you could go log on to LocalBitcoins. 381 00:32:37,910 --> 00:32:38,730 You could find 382 00:32:39,030 --> 00:32:55,245 somebody at a cafe, and they'd be willing to exchange cash, Bitcoin, you know, either way. And I I use sites like that, you know, also in Europe, and I thought it was great. And and you talk about, you know, which laws have restricted Bitcoin. I think if we just go to the root of it all, it is the Bank Secrecy Act. 383 00:32:55,625 --> 00:32:59,885 And this law that was passed in the nineteen seventies, why is this important? It has to do with banks. 384 00:33:00,210 --> 00:33:06,549 Well, yes. But it also makes it much more difficult for you to create a type of Bitcoin or cryptocurrency 385 00:33:06,850 --> 00:33:07,350 exchange 386 00:33:07,730 --> 00:33:13,270 so that people can acquire it. Because that's the number one question someone who's never touched Bitcoin 387 00:33:13,730 --> 00:33:16,835 has is, okay. How do I get this? What's the process? 388 00:33:17,135 --> 00:33:21,875 Alright. Well, you go to this website, and you have to provide your ID. You need to provide your address. 389 00:33:22,255 --> 00:33:25,554 Both have to match. You have to take a picture. That's all required 390 00:33:26,095 --> 00:33:36,130 by the Bank Secrecy Act. Again, been around since the nineteen seventies. And each of these exchanges have limits on the amount that you're able to buy or transfer 391 00:33:36,830 --> 00:33:37,330 without 392 00:33:37,630 --> 00:33:38,770 sufficient documentation. 393 00:33:39,309 --> 00:33:43,170 And the limits on banks, everyone knows this number is $10,000. 394 00:33:43,475 --> 00:33:44,915 So you send over $10,000, 395 00:33:44,915 --> 00:33:47,255 it triggers a suspicious activity report. 396 00:33:47,635 --> 00:33:52,135 Well, most people don't know that for cryptocurrency exchanges, things like Coinbase, Binance, 397 00:33:52,755 --> 00:33:57,255 Strike, Cash App. If you send over $2,500, 398 00:33:57,529 --> 00:34:01,549 that also triggers a suspicious activity report because they are actually 399 00:34:02,090 --> 00:34:04,190 targeted as money transmission 400 00:34:04,570 --> 00:34:05,070 services. 401 00:34:06,090 --> 00:34:10,510 So those are parts of the law that have been applied to Bitcoin 402 00:34:10,970 --> 00:34:12,430 sort of after the fact, 403 00:34:12,865 --> 00:34:16,405 and they kind of kept updating the law to say, okay. Well, now for 404 00:34:16,705 --> 00:34:19,285 any digital assets service 405 00:34:19,905 --> 00:34:31,440 in order to exchange fiat, you know, we need to put these restrictions on there. And that is where you've had a lot of people who haven't been able to get Bitcoin. And a lot of times, it was, you know, I'm a college student. 406 00:34:31,820 --> 00:34:35,680 The address that's on my license is not where I live. I don't have, like, a lease. 407 00:34:36,220 --> 00:34:39,040 I'm I'm just not able to prove my identity. 408 00:34:39,695 --> 00:34:48,115 And I think those are things that I've really that did keep the Bitcoin network from growing, at least in terms of user adoption because people couldn't get it. And 409 00:34:48,415 --> 00:35:03,819 I'll be frank. Not everybody is willing to go to a cafe and meet someone and exchange, you know, cash for Bitcoin or whatever it might be. A lot of people are just not that intellectually curious to dive into something. We want things to be easy, and we want things to to be 410 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,380 in the good model of consumer choice, 411 00:35:06,705 --> 00:35:11,365 simple and easy, and we reduce as many barriers as possible. And I think 412 00:35:12,065 --> 00:35:12,565 once 413 00:35:12,945 --> 00:35:14,005 Bitcoin exchanges, 414 00:35:14,305 --> 00:35:22,460 crypto exchanges, and now liquidity service providers, custodians generally, once the Bank Secrecy Act stuff was applied to this, it made it much more difficult. 415 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,420 So it's like the law caught up to the technology 416 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:33,260 but did so in a worse way. So I think that is one clear example, at least for me. Absolutely. I mean, a personal professional anecdote. I 417 00:35:34,305 --> 00:35:35,765 began working in Bitcoin 418 00:35:36,145 --> 00:35:37,045 in 2020, 419 00:35:38,145 --> 00:35:43,525 was running business development for Bottlepay. You may may know out of The UK, we were acquired by NYDIG, 420 00:35:43,984 --> 00:35:44,724 found myself, 421 00:35:45,105 --> 00:35:49,204 leading business development for the Lightning Payments sort of group or function within the company. 422 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:50,420 And 423 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,819 the vast majority of my time was spent with banks as was our 424 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:56,099 larger teams. 425 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:01,859 And since the choke point two point o unredacted or semi redacted, 426 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:08,005 documents, you know, flowed into the public, you will see NYDIG. And I don't speak for them, 427 00:36:08,464 --> 00:36:13,845 any longer. But you will see names of the banks that we were working with, that we had 428 00:36:14,385 --> 00:36:22,080 fantastic, you know, beta programs and trials with. And ultimately, the whole thing came falling down because they just weren't given the explicit permission 429 00:36:22,700 --> 00:36:30,555 despite the fact that every bit of research indicated and those who don't want banks to have anything to do with the bit you know, with Bitcoin at all, you know, close your ears. 430 00:36:31,035 --> 00:36:36,015 But the reality is most consumers, and you can correct or back this up, I think, would prefer 431 00:36:37,035 --> 00:36:39,295 to acquire it to buy, sell, hold 432 00:36:39,915 --> 00:36:42,895 from their existing financial institutions. And so, 433 00:36:43,490 --> 00:36:46,950 that is all to say that I saw firsthand, you know, the the 434 00:36:47,650 --> 00:36:48,150 tremendous 435 00:36:50,130 --> 00:36:54,470 slowdown or impact that that had on consumer adoption, at least in The US. 436 00:36:55,089 --> 00:36:56,710 So with that, Yale, 437 00:36:57,965 --> 00:37:02,865 let's talk about stablecoins. Let's let's dig a little more into the, into the controversial, 438 00:37:03,565 --> 00:37:05,505 material. I mean, you have covered 439 00:37:06,125 --> 00:37:07,745 senator Lummis and others' 440 00:37:08,685 --> 00:37:10,545 proposed legislation about this. 441 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,539 There appears to be with the current administration 442 00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:17,339 a big push into stablecoins. 443 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:19,900 To what degree 444 00:37:20,359 --> 00:37:21,020 is that 445 00:37:22,359 --> 00:37:22,859 necessary 446 00:37:23,319 --> 00:37:24,140 on the path 447 00:37:24,585 --> 00:37:26,125 perhaps to to broader 448 00:37:26,744 --> 00:37:27,885 hard money adoption, 449 00:37:29,065 --> 00:37:30,285 specifically Bitcoin, 450 00:37:30,825 --> 00:37:32,125 or to what degree 451 00:37:32,905 --> 00:37:34,845 does it just reclaim control, 452 00:37:36,860 --> 00:37:44,160 to the usual parties? I I there is definitely an element of control, and, you know, the specific bill you're talking about is called the Genius Act, 453 00:37:44,620 --> 00:37:45,840 sort of this past committee. 454 00:37:46,140 --> 00:37:50,000 Will go to the senate floor probably any day now, maybe once this goes out. 455 00:37:50,815 --> 00:37:53,635 And what I found troublesome about this bill 456 00:37:54,735 --> 00:37:58,515 again, this is independent of any thoughts of stablecoins generally. 457 00:37:59,775 --> 00:38:00,595 Essentially, it 458 00:38:01,295 --> 00:38:07,030 it requires that all those k y c provisions that we mentioned before are applied to every stablecoin transaction. 459 00:38:07,330 --> 00:38:08,790 Okay. That's a no go. 460 00:38:09,170 --> 00:38:13,030 And then second, the Federal Reserve just has the power to basically veto 461 00:38:13,330 --> 00:38:16,710 any attempt at launching or issuing a stablecoin, which, 462 00:38:17,045 --> 00:38:23,065 again, what's the whole point of the Federal Reserve? I thought that it was this independent entity that had nothing to do with kind of the larger thing. 463 00:38:23,445 --> 00:38:27,865 Those of us who were very much into Ron Paul, you know, in 02/2008 and 02/2009, 464 00:38:28,005 --> 00:38:30,985 we we know differently. But I think what 465 00:38:31,940 --> 00:38:36,200 the argument that we're kinda seeing, there are many people who are passionate about this as 466 00:38:36,819 --> 00:38:39,160 purely an American dominance strategy. 467 00:38:39,859 --> 00:38:42,119 You know, Tether, which is one of the large stablecoin, 468 00:38:42,819 --> 00:38:44,279 sort of providers or protocols, 469 00:38:44,595 --> 00:38:55,075 They're one of the largest purchasers of US treasuries. Those treasuries are bonds. It's US debt. They buy a lot of debt. A lot of US debt. All that debt that we talk about, $36,000,000,000,000 470 00:38:55,075 --> 00:38:59,415 that DOGE is trying to kind of nibble at, you know, a lot of that is owned by 471 00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:05,460 some of these stablecoin companies, things like Tether. Is the number two holder. Is that right? If I understand that. Well, amongst sovereigns, 472 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:15,904 if we include governments and stuff, it's like number 11. But probably in terms of an institution, likely. Yeah. But in terms of countries, I think Tether is, like, just behind Luxembourg, which is really interesting. 473 00:39:16,525 --> 00:39:17,404 But I think they are 474 00:39:18,845 --> 00:39:20,305 what what will be the relevancy 475 00:39:20,765 --> 00:39:29,119 for Bitcoin and for sovereign money and for, you know, separation of money and state? I'm not quite sure. Right? It I think it's a lot about just technological 476 00:39:29,500 --> 00:39:30,720 evolution of money. 477 00:39:31,260 --> 00:39:40,880 One path that the European Union is following is, and I'll probably bring you reports in a couple of months, is there is a central bank digital currency, the digital euro, which is launching in the fall. 478 00:39:41,285 --> 00:39:41,785 Now 479 00:39:42,165 --> 00:39:59,240 private banks don't want this, right, because they're cut out of the equation. Cut out. Right. There's individual citizens, I think, don't want it either because they don't wanna be tracked and traced and everything else. And these are all other debates that you can have, But I I think it's at least interesting to see how we allow our existing 480 00:39:59,859 --> 00:40:04,599 very heavily regulated institutions like banks to deal with the new digital age of cryptocurrencies. 481 00:40:05,220 --> 00:40:07,880 If stablecoins are just the kind of onboarding, 482 00:40:08,655 --> 00:40:13,315 and then they can also deal with Bitcoin, and they can also be an important node in the network, 483 00:40:14,095 --> 00:40:35,210 fine. You know? They're they can run a node just like I can. And, you know, our nodes are equal. Theirs are not, you know, any more powerful than mine. You know? We're just there verifying the blocks, and that's it. Per node. Exactly. So, yeah, I don't, take any larger lessons from it. Obviously, my colleague, Matthew Pine, has done great writing on this and, has provided very good advice to the Trump administration. 484 00:40:36,230 --> 00:40:38,329 I'm not a user necessarily of stablecoins. 485 00:40:38,955 --> 00:40:40,895 I think for most people in the developed 486 00:40:41,195 --> 00:40:41,695 world, 487 00:40:42,315 --> 00:40:43,615 we don't really need stablecoins. 488 00:40:44,315 --> 00:40:46,895 I think it is something for the developing world, 489 00:40:47,195 --> 00:40:53,295 where they do have terribly inflationary currencies that are very bad and make their lives worse. 490 00:40:53,790 --> 00:40:59,490 But, yeah, I'll be interested to see how this kind of evolves. But I do think it's just the 491 00:41:00,030 --> 00:41:08,690 the launching pad for a lot of the traditional financial institutions to eventually get to Bitcoin. They will realize as much as we do, I think, its value. 492 00:41:09,425 --> 00:41:11,845 Well, close to closer to your backyard 493 00:41:12,145 --> 00:41:13,685 in in in the EU, 494 00:41:13,985 --> 00:41:15,445 do you think there's an awareness 495 00:41:16,225 --> 00:41:16,725 of 496 00:41:18,065 --> 00:41:22,725 the tremendous risks, I would say, of central bank digital currencies, a, 497 00:41:23,390 --> 00:41:24,930 and does that bleed over 498 00:41:25,310 --> 00:41:25,810 into 499 00:41:26,190 --> 00:41:26,690 consumers' 500 00:41:27,550 --> 00:41:29,490 views, trust, or lack thereof 501 00:41:30,190 --> 00:41:30,930 of Bitcoin 502 00:41:31,470 --> 00:41:32,930 specifically and perhaps 503 00:41:33,550 --> 00:41:34,050 stablecoins 504 00:41:34,350 --> 00:41:35,010 more broadly? 505 00:41:36,085 --> 00:41:41,545 Well, yeah. I mean, if you look at the heart of Europe, you know, the largest, most populous country, obviously, is Germany. 506 00:41:42,005 --> 00:41:44,025 And Germany and where I am in Austria, 507 00:41:44,485 --> 00:41:47,385 these are technically societies that are very skeptical 508 00:41:47,685 --> 00:41:57,790 of digitized money. You know, if you look at, just the charts of people who invest, you know, Austria is one of the lowest investing countries in the world because people mostly buy gold. 509 00:41:58,250 --> 00:42:00,350 They buy gold and they use cash. 510 00:42:00,650 --> 00:42:21,970 So we have many different areas, you know, where I live. If I go around, I'm I have to have cash because they don't accept the bank cards. They don't wanna touch it. So there has always been this skepticism, and that's from, you know, Weimar Republic, hyperinflation, world wars. There's this kind of innate skepticism that exists when it comes to money. You know, if it's not something I can touch, not something hard, 511 00:42:22,589 --> 00:42:24,210 that is not something that I trust. 512 00:42:24,510 --> 00:42:28,289 So I think there's generally gonna be skepticism of a digital euro. 513 00:42:29,295 --> 00:42:35,555 The problem in the European Union is you just don't have the mechanism necessarily to oppose it. I know it sounds weird, but 514 00:42:36,095 --> 00:42:41,395 many scholars who study EU stuff know there's a term called democratic deficit. 515 00:42:42,099 --> 00:42:46,359 It's not an actual full democracy. It's not necessarily a republic. 516 00:42:46,819 --> 00:42:47,800 There's a commission 517 00:42:48,180 --> 00:42:49,160 which is elected 518 00:42:49,619 --> 00:42:54,440 based on the votes of who's in parliament. It's it's a very strange kind of supranational 519 00:42:54,980 --> 00:43:04,325 government that's a bit removed from what people vote on. So even if we are very much against the digital euro and there I probably register there are tens of millions, 520 00:43:05,025 --> 00:43:07,445 they're still gonna try to push it for 521 00:43:07,745 --> 00:43:11,685 individuals, then it's just incumbent upon them to use the different technologies. 522 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:18,300 And I've been asked about this before. You know, there's a good friend of mine, Nikolaus Yesh, who's a great Bitcoin podcaster, 523 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:20,060 who's here in Austria. 524 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:31,235 Nico. He's dealt with that too. Yeah. Nico. He's great. Yeah. And he's been able to to kinda demystify that because he knows these financial types. He knows these regulators. He knows the guys at the big banks, 525 00:43:31,615 --> 00:43:35,875 and he knows that the general public is skeptical of just digital money 526 00:43:36,175 --> 00:43:37,795 numbers on a screen anyway. 527 00:43:38,130 --> 00:43:53,589 And I think that's why learning about how nodes work, learning about how your public key and your private key works and seed phrases, you know, to understand that there's a bit more complexity just under that layer, I think that's just the next level of education. I think that's why educators are important. 528 00:43:53,895 --> 00:43:54,635 It's why 529 00:43:55,095 --> 00:43:59,275 podcasters are important. It's why, you know, talking about this stuff and informing 530 00:43:59,815 --> 00:44:00,795 not just policymakers, 531 00:44:01,175 --> 00:44:04,955 but users is really important. And with that, 532 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,420 what does good governance look like? If if, let's assume, 533 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,220 in the most charitable interpretation, 534 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,940 a regulatory body, a government 535 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:17,780 wishes to 536 00:44:19,475 --> 00:44:19,975 earn 537 00:44:20,515 --> 00:44:22,775 back the trust and earn back the right 538 00:44:23,235 --> 00:44:23,735 to 539 00:44:25,315 --> 00:44:26,535 regulate, to govern, 540 00:44:27,235 --> 00:44:29,095 what are the tenets that that 541 00:44:29,395 --> 00:44:30,215 you propose, 542 00:44:30,835 --> 00:44:31,575 that you 543 00:44:31,955 --> 00:44:34,455 espouse, that you would advise are? 544 00:44:36,009 --> 00:44:39,950 I think the most important thing is it just if citizens don't have to think about it. 545 00:44:40,730 --> 00:44:45,150 Right? There's no scandal. There's no way it's making our lives worse or more expensive. 546 00:44:45,450 --> 00:44:47,309 It just kind of does its function 547 00:44:48,015 --> 00:44:48,515 and 548 00:44:49,055 --> 00:44:49,555 delivers 549 00:44:49,855 --> 00:44:53,154 or somehow changes public goods, and that's it. 550 00:44:53,535 --> 00:44:59,154 And there are no larger debates. I think this is a major problem that happens once you socialize, 551 00:44:59,615 --> 00:45:01,875 public health systems, for instance, is that 552 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:04,700 normal ordinary things that would happen between, 553 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:16,380 doctors and patients, you know, are elevated to huge levels of the bureaucracy, and it becomes a political thing. It's things to vote on, and what's the government budget, and then my taxes are go you know, as as soon as you 554 00:45:16,994 --> 00:45:17,494 increase 555 00:45:17,875 --> 00:45:21,894 the kind of grasp of of the state into a particular activity, 556 00:45:22,434 --> 00:45:26,934 it means that it renders all of that to a kind of democratic debate. 557 00:45:27,394 --> 00:45:28,535 And, naturally, 558 00:45:29,260 --> 00:45:31,600 just because of how things work once they get bigger, 559 00:45:31,980 --> 00:45:35,760 a lot of dysfunction. So I think you wanna have effective institutions, 560 00:45:36,460 --> 00:45:43,200 but those that we don't have to think about. And I think many Scandinavian countries are actually fairly good at this. They have fairly small governments. 561 00:45:43,935 --> 00:45:49,475 They are able to deliver their services, and that's it. You know, great Baltic and Northern European states like Estonia 562 00:45:50,095 --> 00:45:52,915 are just wonderful. Very small put, footprint, 563 00:45:53,455 --> 00:45:54,675 technologically savvy. 564 00:45:55,215 --> 00:46:00,040 People know what's what. There's no complicated bureaucracy that you have to deal with. Everything is online, 565 00:46:00,500 --> 00:46:14,634 and nobody has to debate about that. You can actually just live your life. You can start your business. You can raise your family and make your own decisions. And I think that's ultimately the goal of what we should as advocates push for is the ability to take 566 00:46:15,095 --> 00:46:16,714 more of those decisions ourselves 567 00:46:17,174 --> 00:46:20,154 and not have it be this huge public thing, big institutions, 568 00:46:20,454 --> 00:46:22,634 elections, all of all of the time. 569 00:46:23,170 --> 00:46:26,790 Not everything has to be rendered to a huge nationwide vote. 570 00:46:27,250 --> 00:46:40,625 And we as consumers make billions of decisions a day, and we should be empowered to do that more, not less. And I think that's why the health care example, I think, is so important and, one I know that, you're passionate about too. 571 00:46:40,925 --> 00:46:41,744 Very poignant. 572 00:46:42,685 --> 00:46:47,744 And I, you know, I'm an American, and in that I enjoy, as you are, a tremendous amount of 573 00:46:48,685 --> 00:46:49,185 of 574 00:46:50,060 --> 00:46:50,560 benefit. 575 00:46:51,260 --> 00:46:52,800 But I hear you say things, 576 00:46:53,260 --> 00:47:04,720 like not having to think about it and not having to worry about what some government agency may and it's it's fantastical to me. I found myself just struggling, like, drifting off into what would that be like? 577 00:47:05,845 --> 00:47:08,105 But it is so common sense and yet challenging. 578 00:47:09,365 --> 00:47:11,465 Hopefully, we're headed more in that direction. 579 00:47:11,845 --> 00:47:12,665 So from 580 00:47:13,205 --> 00:47:14,185 government orgs, 581 00:47:14,965 --> 00:47:16,025 agencies, regulators, 582 00:47:17,420 --> 00:47:19,280 to private markets, to businesses. 583 00:47:20,700 --> 00:47:21,840 Yeah. If you were 584 00:47:22,140 --> 00:47:22,640 advising 585 00:47:24,140 --> 00:47:30,880 someone, let's say, in consumer products, perhaps they're they're heading up a product line, a brand if they're a a CXO, what have you, 586 00:47:31,434 --> 00:47:34,654 how do they re earn trust? What are some of the tenants, 587 00:47:34,954 --> 00:47:35,454 behaviors 588 00:47:36,555 --> 00:47:37,615 that you see, 589 00:47:38,474 --> 00:47:44,015 and maybe you have examples of of companies doing this well? What does good look like in that regard? 590 00:47:45,170 --> 00:47:49,750 Yeah. I mean, if I if I knew fully, you know, I'd be a millionaire in having all my own companies. 591 00:47:50,290 --> 00:48:01,204 Yeah. So you would definitely be here. You'd be out you'd be out building those products. Yeah. No. I'd I'd be on a boat somewhere. I think, generally, it just comes down to, you know, let people test and use it. I think that's why 592 00:48:01,905 --> 00:48:09,525 keep coming back to Bitcoin, but you're able to run it yourself, test it. And increasingly with many of these LLMs and AI, 593 00:48:10,145 --> 00:48:14,005 you know, for most people, it's just gonna be a click on chadgpt.com. 594 00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:28,140 But for those who are just a little technically savvy, you can actually run this on your own computer. You know, if you have a NAS or if you have something else, you can actually see how this works. And I think that gives people a lot of trust. It allows them to tinker, allows them to change things. 595 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:29,820 So, yeah, just generally, 596 00:48:30,255 --> 00:48:31,795 the advice is just to, 597 00:48:32,095 --> 00:48:41,075 you know, allow people to be part of that story and to put some skin in the game. You know, I think it's obviously, it's it's great. People love things like Apple products or, 598 00:48:42,015 --> 00:48:49,900 you know, let's say Tesla cars or whatever it might be, and they like it because it improves their life, and they're able to customize things how they want. 599 00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:57,900 And I I couldn't tell you a grand strategy as to reach out to all the consumers because I'm still looking to do that myself with my public policy research. Absolutely. 600 00:48:58,280 --> 00:48:59,100 But but surely, 601 00:48:59,675 --> 00:49:04,494 allowing people to have some skin in the game to, you know, modify, customize. 602 00:49:05,195 --> 00:49:09,855 I mean, that's one great thing about the Internet is that everything can be so tailored and targeted, 603 00:49:10,234 --> 00:49:17,990 and we really like that. You know? Would you have a right to repair in that? I mean, to what degree when you mentioned Apple and Tesla, brilliant 604 00:49:18,290 --> 00:49:18,790 products, 605 00:49:19,890 --> 00:49:25,670 but largely sealed black boxes, how much does the ability to open that box, open that lid, 606 00:49:26,075 --> 00:49:32,735 and see inside and tinker, does that matter these days? Does anyone care? I'm so I'm asked about right to repair more than anything. 607 00:49:33,035 --> 00:49:34,255 I it's interesting, 608 00:49:35,115 --> 00:49:36,015 sort of as, 609 00:49:36,475 --> 00:49:48,210 you know, I I grew up my my dad was a NASCAR mechanic, so, obviously, I'm big into cars and secondary parts. And, you know, if you have something breakdown, you wanna be able to just order a part, and it's fine. You don't have to go to the dealership. 610 00:49:48,590 --> 00:49:56,130 But, you know, if you're an entrepreneur making a product, you know, are you having to render every part of your process to some open tender system 611 00:49:56,535 --> 00:50:04,795 so that anybody can offer the I mean, you have your vision if you're an entrepreneur, if you're a business owner, your vision of doing things and you're hoping to sell it. 612 00:50:05,174 --> 00:50:09,835 What part of it do you need to cut open so that other people can also offer products? 613 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:16,500 At the same time as a consumer, yes. I'd love to be able to use third party things with Apple devices. There's so I think 614 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:18,820 there's not a clear cut answer. 615 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:25,875 I there are many bills in Congress that where this has been debated and people figuring out. And there are egregious examples, 616 00:50:26,175 --> 00:50:28,595 John Deere tractors and things like this. Certainly. 617 00:50:28,975 --> 00:50:32,915 Yeah. I I don't know the right answer. On the tractor was not on my bingo card. 618 00:50:33,775 --> 00:50:40,195 Yeah. Especially that. And, you know, intellectual property is something that is actually fairly important. And, you know, 619 00:50:40,890 --> 00:50:42,750 if you look at the difference between 620 00:50:43,289 --> 00:50:48,430 China and, Western Europe and The United States, you know, we have a kind of intellectual 621 00:50:49,130 --> 00:50:50,589 property system that 622 00:50:50,890 --> 00:50:54,190 protects many profits and benefits for innovators, 623 00:50:54,809 --> 00:50:58,025 and that is actually carried down to consumers. 624 00:50:59,685 --> 00:51:19,070 How is it so different in China? What are they doing? You know, what kind of intellectual property theft is there? Whole complicated thing. I know many of the Randians and the Ayn Rand crowd might agree or disagree with that. There's Yes. Indeed. You you different ways to think about it. Read my mind on that one. I mean, you know, I think about Disney and what I would argue, I have a background as well in media entertainment music, 625 00:51:19,370 --> 00:51:19,870 and 626 00:51:21,305 --> 00:51:24,205 the ability to lobby to continue to extend 627 00:51:24,585 --> 00:51:26,525 those protections. And that's another 628 00:51:26,825 --> 00:51:32,525 example right there, and you bring it up perfectly, is that too much of lobbying is just in getting protections 629 00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:39,020 for your business and for carving out part of the market just for you and rent seeking. 630 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:43,180 Yeah. And I hope that's what Bitcoin allows us to go around 631 00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,060 because it is an open network and an open protocol. 632 00:51:46,985 --> 00:51:57,325 And I I hopefully, we can take more of that attitude with other sectors of the economy and other parts of our society and render everything to competition. But I guess it's just one step at a time. 633 00:51:57,785 --> 00:52:00,045 Indeed. Well, on that, I'd I'd love to close, 634 00:52:00,425 --> 00:52:03,570 yeah, with maybe some examples, your thoughts on 635 00:52:04,109 --> 00:52:05,869 what what gives you hope? What, 636 00:52:06,990 --> 00:52:09,890 what examples beyond perhaps Bitcoin do you see 637 00:52:10,670 --> 00:52:19,654 as heading in the right direction, as promising with regard to engendering trust among consumers and doing the right thing, however you would define that? 638 00:52:20,595 --> 00:52:27,414 Yeah. I think, I've been, you know, living and working in in different countries and settings and being able to travel. And, 639 00:52:27,954 --> 00:52:39,640 I think just generally technological prod progress the way that is going is just so beneficial for humanity. And we do get always locked in these kind of struggles of things are so hard or this isn't working. 640 00:52:40,260 --> 00:52:47,800 But, you know, the amount that you as an individual are able to travel and see the world as compared to two generations ago, 641 00:52:48,474 --> 00:52:56,095 you just can't compare it. And the things that you're able to learn, the things that you're able to access, the value you're able to transfer, 642 00:52:56,635 --> 00:53:02,895 and the type of work that you're going to have now and in the future, and the ability to act on your ideas or your entrepreneurial 643 00:53:03,650 --> 00:53:04,790 projects or wishes. 644 00:53:05,250 --> 00:53:06,310 It's just infinite. 645 00:53:07,010 --> 00:53:21,085 And I think that's something that we don't often sit back and realize. You know, it was not more than two generations ago that we would have been stuck in factories. Most of us just kind of plugging away our nine to five and not have many other options. But 646 00:53:21,464 --> 00:53:24,845 now because of the Internet, because of technology, because of innovations, 647 00:53:25,385 --> 00:53:31,805 we're able to live these lives. You know, there are people who roam around the globe living on Bitcoin, being able to transfer value, 648 00:53:32,240 --> 00:53:37,460 not having to go through strange KYC processes, able to run their businesses from an Asian beach 649 00:53:37,839 --> 00:53:44,339 or some interesting place in Colombia. I think this this is something that is not just for certain people who are well-to-do. 650 00:53:45,005 --> 00:53:45,825 It's for everyone. 651 00:53:46,125 --> 00:53:50,465 And that's what I'm very hopeful about is that technology is getting better 652 00:53:50,765 --> 00:53:52,225 as long as we remain principled, 653 00:53:52,605 --> 00:53:53,585 as long as we, 654 00:53:54,365 --> 00:53:56,945 you know, hold back some of the institutions 655 00:53:57,245 --> 00:54:03,440 that will make our lives worse and try to take control and take decisions away from us. We can remain free as individuals. 656 00:54:03,820 --> 00:54:07,120 We can actually benefit from that flourishing and that progress, 657 00:54:07,660 --> 00:54:10,960 and it's something that I know I benefit from each and every day. 658 00:54:11,340 --> 00:54:14,880 I'm able to learn about things. I'm able to travel. I'm able to meet people, 659 00:54:15,245 --> 00:54:18,705 and I think that just makes me much better as a human being and 660 00:54:19,165 --> 00:54:21,505 makes me makes me realize that, 661 00:54:22,445 --> 00:54:28,385 my daughters and everyone that comes after me, they're gonna have great lives too. So it always gives me a a lot of motivation. 662 00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:38,420 Well, cheers to that. Absolutely. It's a great great way and a great place to wrap it up. I will, of course, I'll have your relevant links in the show notes. 663 00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:40,740 With regard to your work, 664 00:54:41,385 --> 00:54:44,365 BPI, consumer choice center, your individual writing, 665 00:54:44,825 --> 00:54:47,485 where is the best place to to follow you specifically? 666 00:54:47,945 --> 00:54:51,465 Yeah. I just have it all over there on yael.ca. 667 00:54:51,465 --> 00:54:53,965 You can just follow there as my main website and 668 00:54:54,390 --> 00:54:59,450 Bitcoin writing. On Nostril, I'm pretty easy to find as well. Yael, I'll go over to you. Yeah. 669 00:55:00,630 --> 00:55:05,289 Please do. It's a very interesting network of people there, some haters, some lovers, 670 00:55:05,670 --> 00:55:08,410 and you as well. It's great. Yeah. We we've got it all. 671 00:55:08,964 --> 00:55:15,464 Well, it's been a pleasure, Kyle. I appreciate it. Thanks so much for taking the time, and I will look forward to following, 672 00:55:16,085 --> 00:55:16,585 particularly 673 00:55:16,964 --> 00:55:29,035 some of these pressing Bitcoin and stablecoin issues that you're tracking and, your work in general. Thanks again. Thank you very much, Sean. You do give me a little bit of a trust revolution, so thank you. Cheers to that. Bye bye.