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Jeffrey Tucker, welcome.

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My pleasure. Thank you.

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I appreciate you taking the time today.

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I absolutely want to touch on as much of your 30-plus years as we can today.

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That's a lot!

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I'm with you. I also have 30.

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You know, I think my bio may say over 25 to try to keep it from sounding too much.

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But I say that, you know, half-jokingly, your career has spanned writing, academia, dare I say activism, which we'll get into.

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You are a prolific writer, a thousand-plus articles, many books, the latest of which I absolutely want to dig into.

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And I say all that to indicate I think it's fair to say that you are a leading figure in Austrian economics and beyond.

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And I know that that, as I have discovered it over the last five or six years, has informed a great deal of my worldview, I presume yours as well.

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So I paint that brief picture for listeners and watchers.

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Of course, we'll have details in the show notes.

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But with that brief background, I'd love to dive in here, and then I think we'll zoom out a bit and talk more.

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COVID-19, for those of us who discovered you in the last four or five years, as I did, it was largely based on your work, your actions in pushing back against COVID-19 policies.

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with the Brownstone Institute being, I think, the sort of seminal, the culmination rather of that

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work. So my question is this, how did you finding yourself perhaps or volunteering to lead much of

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that in America, how did that shape your perspective on the balance of individual freedoms

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versus centralized authority, particularly in public health and economic systems?

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I never wanted to lead anything. I just was outraged when I saw what was happening. I had been writing about pandemic planning issues since about 2005 because I saw that there was a sector within government that imagined that the way to deal with infectious disease was by nationalizing everything and shutting down schools and churches.

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And I knew that there was a faction out there that believed that.

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I mean, George W. Bush had toyed with the idea because he lived in sort of constant fear of chemical biological attacks from abroad and had developed something like a central plan to – throughout the Bill of Rights.

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And I don't know what.

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These people are insane.

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And so I knew that this had been going on, and I knew that they were tempted by the idea in 2009 with the bird flu.

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But everybody's too busy recovering from the 2008 financial crisis.

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You know, Washington can only do one thing at a time, one terrible thing at a time.

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So that kind of came and went.

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And then in January of 2020, when I saw this unfolding, when you hear the news media talk about this virus in China or whatever, I thought, you know, this is potentially a very dangerous situation because we had Trump as president at the time.

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And there was a kind of struggle between China and the U.S. anyway.

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And many people on what we call the right had this kind of wild fear of the CCP.

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The idea of the CCP manufacturing a dangerous virus, you know, to export to the U.S. sort of feeds into a bit of right-wing paranoia.

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And I worry that the Trump administration would somehow be open to an extreme solution here.

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This was in January. I wrote my first article about this. I think it was January 2020.

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2020. And I said, you know, we could face lockdowns, extreme lockdowns, the effect of

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which would be to discredit the whole public health, destroy the country's health, and

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ruin all of our rights and liberties. And it would be many years to recover from it.

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And at the time, people called me up and said, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard.

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That'll never happen. And I assure people, look, I'm not saying it's going to happen.

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I'm just saying there's some people who believe that it should happen, and I'm worried that the conflict with the U.S. and China right now could lead that to being the result.

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Now, the fascinating thing about this is that it was China itself that scripted the lockdowns.

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I mean, that's what I can't get over.

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I mean, the World Health Organization and Anthony Fauci and the National Institute of Health flew over to Wuhan February 22nd on a junket, a commercially charted flight, to get a tour of how great the CCP had handled the virus by locking everybody in their homes, you know, by force.

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And the World Health Organization delivered a report, I think, on the 25th of February that said, hey, China did this exactly right.

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Everybody came together and they defeated the virus through lockdowns and extreme controls.

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And we highly recommend that everybody follow the same thing.

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Well, that was the point at which Fauci got on board and said, OK, let's do this.

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At some point, they surrounded Trump and told him that he was responsible for millions of deaths unless he locked down the country.

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But don't worry about it because we've got a shot coming out, and it'll be out long before the election.

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And then you'll soar to re-election with everybody grateful for the great shot that you distributed.

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Hold the right strings.

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Yeah.

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And he – I'm not – I can't say – I've read every account of this.

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but most of them are lies, so I can't really figure out.

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I mean, I know for a fact that most of the accounts of this are lies

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because there was a lot of military intelligence involved,

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so that means it's all classified, so you can't really see what's happening.

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But for whatever reason, they got to Trump,

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and three weeks later, he had lost.

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I think three weeks later, he realized he had been trolled already.

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But it took him a while to think through all the implications of what that meant.

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But anyway, I started speaking out on this whole thing, and I expected after a lifetime of – after a career-long involvement in what used to be called the liberty movement, that I'd be surrounded by friends and colleagues and that every civil libertarian on the left and right would rise up in opposition to lockdowns, but they just simply didn't.

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You got yourself with a back full of arrows instead.

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I, yeah, I was kind of a lone voice and I could not understand it.

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But it's like I didn't get the memo or something.

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There was a memo sent out to everybody else and they complied with it.

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Nobody ever sent me a memo.

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I did get phone calls.

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Angry phone calls.

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And what could you, I will try to avoid Jeffrey as best I can,

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asking for wild speculation, but given, again, how deep you were and are in this matter,

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What is your best estimation of why that was so coordinated among those who might otherwise be assumed to be on the side of individual liberties?

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You know, there may be many other explanations besides this one, but my preference is just to chalk it up to ignorance about infectious disease.

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It's a complicated topic.

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Yes, it's always been with us.

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There's never been a time in history when there hasn't been infectious disease.

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It's always there.

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But the way we think about ideas and politics these days, it's not integrated enough.

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So you can be an economist, you know, and write, you know, 10 volumes of economic history and never touch on infectious disease, even though that's been a major subject throughout history.

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You can be—

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So deference to experts and expertise.

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Yeah.

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And so people just didn't understand.

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They were afraid of virology.

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I find this sort of aggressive posturing and ignorance to be insufferable.

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I don't know why in January when we didn't hear this virus, why didn't people download viruses for dummies from Amazon and read it?

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They could have known immediately about the basic implications of things like natural immunity or the inherent boiled-in evolutionary tradeoff between prevalence and severity subject to latency.

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These are just basic principles of immunology that anybody would learn in middle school, at least in the old days.

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But it's like even geniuses.

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Didn't seem to know that.

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Fear hijacks the brain, and we know that.

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Maybe that's part of it, but I don't think people were intellectually prepared to deal with how to.

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It seemed to come out of the blue.

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There was a bit of a shock.

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Like, why would the whole of big tech and media and every agency of government and every government in the world be saying the same thing if it wasn't true?

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One is forgiven for leaning toward conspiracy theories in a situation like that.

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Yeah, I don't –

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Because of that remarkable alignment, I think, that you mentioned.

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Yeah, yeah.

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No question about it.

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I mean, yeah, conspiracy.

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And the word conspiracy is etymologically just means that you're breathing together.

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So it doesn't mean that anybody sent out an instruction.

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It just meant you sort of know where your interests are.

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Like the big tech companies knew for sure.

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This is a great way to test.

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Jeffrey, I'm sorry.

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I'm going to pause you and I'll fix this in the edit.

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I think, I'm not sure if you touched your mic, but the volume level just dropped significantly.

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How about now?

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Coming up a little better.

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That's very strange.

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Yeah, and these are independent recordings on each side, so I can boost yours without affecting.

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Let me unplug and plug back in.

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Can you tilt it toward yourself, maybe?

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Okay.

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Ah, I think we're already better.

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There.

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Did that plug?

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That is up quite a bit.

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It looks like I just got a notification Jeffrey's recording will continue on a new track.

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Okay, great.

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We'll fix that.

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No problem.

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That's strange.

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Okay, that's better.

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And I think if you could, and I'm sorry to be a director here, but if you could bring it closer to you, maybe we'll.

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Yeah, I'm a little puzzled by why we could be having this problem.

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It's now I now I've got a bit of echo, which is no problem.

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We can fix that.

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But the volume's up, which is great.

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So I'm sorry to to to break your stride there.

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Not at all.

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Not at all.

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Yeah.

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So let me just continue.

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You know, was there a conspiracy?

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Certainly.

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If by conspiracy, we mean breathing together.

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Big tech knew its its interests.

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The streaming platforms love to have people at home watching the movies.

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Amazon loved having, you know, trillions of dollars in cash dropped.

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Incentives were aligned.

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Yeah.

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And so it all kind of worked for everybody.

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CDC loved having new power.

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The Democrats loved having mail-in ballots.

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So, and mainly the mRNA industry wanted a chance to test out its product,

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which is a kind of a platform technology that lead to a subscription model of profitability forever.

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So there is a lot of alignment here.

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And I just didn't – I just – my problem is I've never been good at following, you know, good career advice.

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I'm actually – everybody else –

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So when they said don't go wading into this battlefield, you said charge.

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They literally did say it.

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And by they, I mean the architect of pandemic planning from 2005 called my private cell phone and told me to shut up.

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This is not good for me.

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And, yeah, I had some arguments with him.

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You know, I just told him this is not going to work.

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And I explained why.

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And he explained why he thought it was going to work.

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But, no, I wasn't going to listen to that.

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Plus, I didn't – he told me that the plan was to stay locked down until we could get a shot.

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I thought that was crazy that he couldn't possibly be telling me the truth because that would – I thought that that would mean –

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Two plus years, right, typically?

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In a case of a vaccine, it would have been closer to 10 or 15 years.

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That's what I know.

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You know, but also you cannot vaccinate against a respiratory virus with a zoonotic reservoir.

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It's just not possible.

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The mutation is just too fast.

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By the way, I'm saying this is not like fancy knowledge, right?

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This is just, this is known virology.

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These viruses mutate very quickly.

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You cannot vaccinate to get ahead of them.

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And if you attempt to do that, you're only going to incentivize quicker mutations.

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And ultimately leading to a breakdown of the immune system that's going to lead people to be sicker than they were before the shot.

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Guaranteed.

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I knew all of this in the spring.

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And here we are.

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Yeah.

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So, I mean, and also I didn't have some specialized knowledge.

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I knew this.

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This is just what you learn and what you can read about.

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Just to check my knowledge, I read a first-year text on viruses from medical school, you know, which you can download online.

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I read the whole thing really carefully to make sure I wasn't missing something.

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So I knew this whole thing was ridiculous going into it.

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And I just couldn't stop speaking out about it.

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And, you know, it was also heartbreaking to see the world break.

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You could see people turning to drugs and liquor and depression and sadness and communities breaking apart.

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And the surveillance state was increasing and people were flying drones, turning in their neighbors for having house parties.

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And it was just a terrible situation.

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Twenty-somethings were walking around in the garb of woe, having found new cause in life, you know, like flagellants from the Middle Ages.

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And it was all just pathetic.

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Finally, I had the opportunity to gather some scientists together, and they put together the Great Branson Declaration, which I distributed.

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And that was right ahead of the shot release.

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And that's why it was attacked so severely, because basically we said, look, we're going to get through this through natural immunity.

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And intimacy comes from exposure.

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That's the way every pandemic, flu pandemic ends.

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That's all the document said.

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Well, that apparently was unsable.

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These were insane times.

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They were crazy times.

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Anyway, you said, well, you know, what was it like to be a leader?

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I never wanted to be the leader of anything.

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It just so happened that within my sector of thinking, I seemed to be the only real voice out there that was consistently writing about the topic, as incredible as that seems.

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It is. It is. And with that, you have a background. You did the basic reading. Were you surprised by the degree to which this persisted and evolved and ultimately, to the point of this show at least, wrecked trust in these institutions?

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or perhaps would you have looked back and seen that this was inevitable?

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Or were those – was the trust so frail already?

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So sort of where – you know, how cataclysmic an event was this in terms of public trust in these primary institutions?

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Yeah Well I wrote in 2005 that if the government ever tried this that it would destroy trust in government and public health and in science and medicine 20 years ago you were calling that out I said that 20 years ago I said if you ever attempt this thing the world will never be the same That said I could not have imagined the scale of it you know

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That was like an abstract statement.

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If this happens, then this will happen.

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But I could not imagine the scale of it.

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And the other thing I did not expect was to see such full-scale cooperation from all the media,

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all the big tech, all academia.

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I thought that academia had more dissonant intellectuals in it.

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I thought my movement, what I used to call my movement, the libertarians, would clearly see the problems and speak out against it.

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I thought all these things would happen.

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So that shocked me.

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But I expected a state centralized response and a lot of resistance from the bottom up.

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00:16:58,207 --> 00:17:26,987
What I did not expect is that every retail outlet, every big box franchise store would be celebrating because their smaller businesses were shut down, that the news media would defend everything and smear all opponents because they're all accepting advertising for the pharmaceutical companies, that CVS and Walgreens would take ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine out of the shelf out of deference to the medical industry, which is entirely in the pay.

221
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And that academia itself would shut up because the pharmaceutical companies are paying the journals and they're getting grants from NIH and NIH had to do X, Y, and Z.

222
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So the money flows were everywhere.

223
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Yes.

224
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What I would have called the state in the past was actually pervasive throughout all of society.

225
00:17:46,567 --> 00:17:53,907
then you add to that population panic, mortality fears, too much trust in the media.

226
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That censorship, you know, even to this day, I don't know, you know,

227
00:17:58,407 --> 00:18:04,867
maybe there were a lot of people trying to speak out like I did, but they were censored.

228
00:18:04,987 --> 00:18:08,427
I was certainly censored. I was never finally blocked.

229
00:18:09,467 --> 00:18:15,887
Yeah, I got plenty of posts taken down, but I didn't finally lose my Facebook account or my X account.

230
00:18:16,567 --> 00:18:17,067
Where am I?

231
00:18:17,127 --> 00:18:17,827
Lake Tendik out.

232
00:18:18,287 --> 00:18:18,847
Quite surprising.

233
00:18:19,207 --> 00:18:20,187
They somehow survived.

234
00:18:20,807 --> 00:18:21,987
I don't know how.

235
00:18:22,507 --> 00:18:23,387
It's like a miracle.

236
00:18:24,047 --> 00:18:32,107
I'm reminded, and you probably know his work, you may know the man, Oren McIntyre, who I have become familiar with recently and watched an interview.

237
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And I was really, really struck by his remarks about what he calls the total state and the managerial class.

238
00:18:40,947 --> 00:18:50,347
and really synonyms of, I think, to your point, how what one would call the state is now much more expansive.

239
00:18:50,347 --> 00:18:50,967
It's everything.

240
00:18:52,407 --> 00:18:59,747
And I'll make this assertion and get your feedback on it, Jeffrey, is, you know, as one of those Bitcoiners,

241
00:19:00,187 --> 00:19:04,107
we talk a lot about broken money and setting aside Bitcoin.

242
00:19:04,827 --> 00:19:10,707
I would assert that, to your point, they all fell in line because the money is broken.

243
00:19:10,947 --> 00:19:16,887
And therefore, the economy is broken and therefore, one not dare step out of line.

244
00:19:16,987 --> 00:19:18,367
What's your take on that?

245
00:19:18,867 --> 00:19:23,167
I think there's truth in that, but I need to flesh it out just a little bit.

246
00:19:23,307 --> 00:19:25,407
I mean, the managerial class.

247
00:19:25,487 --> 00:19:30,747
Managerial class is bloated beyond all sustainability in a genuine market society.

248
00:19:30,927 --> 00:19:37,187
Even in a normal society, you have millions upon millions of people that got their jobs solely because of their resumes

249
00:19:37,187 --> 00:19:41,807
and for their far-flung so-called credentials from fancy universities.

250
00:19:41,807 --> 00:19:42,887
They don't actually do anything.

251
00:19:42,967 --> 00:19:43,867
They don't know how to do anything.

252
00:19:43,947 --> 00:19:44,887
So how's it they're hired?

253
00:19:44,887 --> 00:19:52,427
Well, for the better part of 25 years now, 20 years up to the COVID thing,

254
00:19:53,067 --> 00:19:58,327
the large corporations have ballooned way beyond anything they ever would have

255
00:19:58,327 --> 00:19:59,987
because they had taken on so much leverage,

256
00:20:00,227 --> 00:20:03,387
and they just started throwing human bodies at all problems.

257
00:20:03,507 --> 00:20:04,467
We need better marketing.

258
00:20:04,587 --> 00:20:05,907
Well, we need a marketing department.

259
00:20:06,007 --> 00:20:06,947
How many should we hire?

260
00:20:06,947 --> 00:20:07,867
It's 300 people.

261
00:20:08,587 --> 00:20:09,507
And this went on.

262
00:20:09,647 --> 00:20:10,527
And how did this happen?

263
00:20:10,627 --> 00:20:12,367
Because credit was so cheap.

264
00:20:13,907 --> 00:20:19,587
We experienced negative interest rates for, you know, two decades.

265
00:20:20,347 --> 00:20:30,847
And you know from structure of production theory that under those conditions, what you get is a wildly blown up, overblown capital goods sector that's living off leverage.

266
00:20:30,987 --> 00:20:32,207
And that's exactly what we saw.

267
00:20:32,287 --> 00:20:33,427
It distorted the markets.

268
00:20:33,587 --> 00:20:35,727
These large corporations started eating smaller people.

269
00:20:35,727 --> 00:20:38,487
People start businesses just to be acquired now.

270
00:20:38,687 --> 00:20:40,667
This is not normal.

271
00:20:41,407 --> 00:20:42,607
Yeah, that is broken money.

272
00:20:42,907 --> 00:21:03,707
But, yeah, so – and in 2008, when Ben Bernanke rescued, as they say, the economy from the financial world from collapse by zero interest rates and then had the Fed pay a higher rate of return on the reserves than the banks themselves could get in the private sector,

273
00:21:03,707 --> 00:21:08,107
What that did was tamper down hot money in the streets and therefore inflation.

274
00:21:08,867 --> 00:21:14,687
But, yeah, which is great, except that it massively distorted the production structures.

275
00:21:15,627 --> 00:21:21,027
So, you know, Burnham wrote about the managerial class in something like 1945.

276
00:21:21,607 --> 00:21:27,967
But we had never seen the managerial class like what we encountered, you know, by the time COVID arrived.

277
00:21:27,967 --> 00:21:35,967
So you have this huge unskilled overclass that hates more than anything else their commutes.

278
00:21:36,967 --> 00:21:39,387
And they say, wait, stay home and stay safe.

279
00:21:39,447 --> 00:21:41,967
Oh, yeah, I'm going to stay home and stay safe.

280
00:21:42,767 --> 00:21:45,107
I'm thinking of your closing paragraph on forbearance.

281
00:21:45,187 --> 00:21:45,787
We'll come to that.

282
00:21:46,907 --> 00:21:47,767
Yeah, right.

283
00:21:47,767 --> 00:22:13,367
Yeah. And the other thing to remember is that people like me in that sort of classical liberal milieu dating way back have been very reluctant to think about class disinterrata as a sort of a relevant explanatory paradigm for understanding politics.

284
00:22:13,367 --> 00:22:17,407
We just don't like to do that because it makes us feel like Marxists, okay?

285
00:22:17,927 --> 00:22:22,227
So it took me a while to realize, wow, we've got a class problem here.

286
00:22:22,667 --> 00:22:25,267
We've got a genuine class struggle taking place.

287
00:22:25,547 --> 00:22:27,647
The overclass versus the working class.

288
00:22:27,967 --> 00:22:29,647
The essentials and the non-essentials.

289
00:22:29,727 --> 00:22:31,127
That's what the government called everybody.

290
00:22:31,547 --> 00:22:34,627
So it was exactly as Marx explained.

291
00:22:34,867 --> 00:22:41,267
It was a genuine class conflict with the owners of capital exploiting the workers and peasants,

292
00:22:41,267 --> 00:22:44,827
except this time the workers and peasants are dropping off groceries at your front door.

293
00:22:45,747 --> 00:22:50,207
That is – the economy functioned exactly the way Marx explained it.

294
00:22:50,367 --> 00:22:54,567
And if you don't read Marx, you don't understand Marx, this becomes invisible to you.

295
00:22:56,407 --> 00:23:01,247
And that is a fantastic seg, Jeffrey, into my next question,

296
00:23:01,247 --> 00:23:11,147
which is if we take as understood that these massive institutions, the total state, has failed,

297
00:23:11,267 --> 00:23:20,287
in many measures and is failing. As I heard someone say today, a living thing retains its

298
00:23:20,287 --> 00:23:29,447
form even as it decays. And so if we accept that it is decaying and that trust, particularly among

299
00:23:29,447 --> 00:23:35,787
millennials and younger, is almost non-existent in these institutions, we look to the free market.

300
00:23:35,787 --> 00:23:43,647
And that, however, is fraught with challenges as well because of these institutions largely.

301
00:23:43,767 --> 00:23:53,347
But my question is, what barriers do we face in addressing these public health and economic and bigger challenges with free market solutions?

302
00:23:53,767 --> 00:24:05,667
So what is the environment like now to make a shift to what a liberty-minded individual, to what a free market advocate would assert is the right way?

303
00:24:05,787 --> 00:24:25,707
I don't know. I'm reluctant to even use broad terms like, oh, the free market solutions, because I don't think we have any agreement. Or, I mean, you hear about privatization, it always turns out to be contracting out. A lot of the oppression we face right now is from private sector actors.

304
00:24:25,707 --> 00:24:30,787
I could just go through all the lists, but I mean, the state is able.

305
00:24:31,787 --> 00:24:35,647
I was just at lunch, and the waitress says, don't you want to sign up for our loyalty program?

306
00:24:36,087 --> 00:24:37,547
You'll save $5 on your meal.

307
00:24:37,707 --> 00:24:38,847
I said, yeah, not today.

308
00:24:38,907 --> 00:24:40,027
But I began to think about it.

309
00:24:40,467 --> 00:24:43,647
What she's calling the loyalty program is actually just a data collection program.

310
00:24:45,427 --> 00:24:46,067
That's all they want.

311
00:24:46,127 --> 00:24:49,687
They just want your data, and there's nothing to prevent them from selling your data.

312
00:24:49,847 --> 00:24:50,887
And they sell it to the government.

313
00:24:51,067 --> 00:24:54,227
I mean, we're all being profiled every single second.

314
00:24:54,227 --> 00:24:55,987
Okay, is that the market working?

315
00:24:56,307 --> 00:24:57,067
I don't know.

316
00:24:57,227 --> 00:24:58,427
I mean, maybe not.

317
00:24:58,707 --> 00:24:59,967
Maybe, maybe not.

318
00:25:00,407 --> 00:25:04,487
But the regulation and the markets are so intertwined now.

319
00:25:05,767 --> 00:25:10,467
That is actually the single spookiest thing I learned during COVID.

320
00:25:11,647 --> 00:25:14,087
And I'm still not quite shaking it off.

321
00:25:15,007 --> 00:25:19,627
A lot of it, we knew for sure that the agencies were working hand in glove with industry.

322
00:25:19,627 --> 00:25:30,087
There was no conflict between the pharmaceutical industry and the CDC, you know, between the tech companies and the FCC.

323
00:25:30,407 --> 00:25:33,467
I mean, between the media and the government.

324
00:25:33,607 --> 00:25:37,227
I mean, they were all cooperating very, very closely between the people.

325
00:25:37,227 --> 00:25:37,467
Lockstep.

326
00:25:37,907 --> 00:25:38,387
Lockstep.

327
00:25:38,947 --> 00:25:42,107
And it became very unclear to me at what point.

328
00:25:42,107 --> 00:25:50,067
And I've looked at this very carefully and disentangling those and saying, oh, these are the good actors and these are the bad actors.

329
00:25:50,227 --> 00:25:51,007
It's no longer possible.

330
00:25:51,127 --> 00:25:54,107
I'm not even sure which hand and which is the glove.

331
00:25:54,827 --> 00:25:55,687
So I take your point.

332
00:25:55,807 --> 00:25:56,467
So it is naive.

333
00:25:56,827 --> 00:25:59,087
And my question is somewhat designed that way.

334
00:25:59,147 --> 00:25:59,787
It's just like.

335
00:26:00,127 --> 00:26:09,667
But to say let's point more resources here when here is submerged in the greater, you know, sort of blob, as some would say.

336
00:26:09,667 --> 00:26:10,187
Yeah.

337
00:26:10,187 --> 00:26:23,767
Yeah, and I don't also entirely know what to do about the fact that you have, for example, the FDA giving, you know, rubber stamping, or the Department of Agriculture for that matter, rubber stamping deeply dangerous products for the market.

338
00:26:24,307 --> 00:26:26,727
Let me just give you one quick example of what I mean by that.

339
00:26:26,727 --> 00:26:27,027
Okay.

340
00:26:27,027 --> 00:26:46,247
So you had during this period, and I'm annoyed for the most part by libertarian naivety about the way the real world works, but during this period we had private companies mandating that their employees get the shots, okay?

341
00:26:46,747 --> 00:26:52,287
And my liberty friends would say, well, that's a private company.

342
00:26:52,367 --> 00:26:53,327
They can do whatever they want.

343
00:26:53,407 --> 00:26:53,607
Okay.

344
00:26:53,607 --> 00:26:56,307
But here's the problem.

345
00:26:56,307 --> 00:26:57,207
These shots were in—

346
00:26:57,207 --> 00:26:57,847
Behest of OSHA.

347
00:26:58,547 --> 00:26:58,967
Yeah.

348
00:26:59,167 --> 00:27:02,847
Well, these shots were indemnified against any liability for harms, okay?

349
00:27:03,007 --> 00:27:05,447
So they can kill you, you and your family and your children.

350
00:27:05,827 --> 00:27:06,667
Everybody's dead.

351
00:27:07,127 --> 00:27:11,127
Nobody pays the price because the shots were indemnified by the government.

352
00:27:14,367 --> 00:27:23,847
So the employer is forcing products on people that can kill them and facing zero liability for this.

353
00:27:23,847 --> 00:27:34,387
This is not – no genuine civil, free, responsible economic order would ever permit such a thing.

354
00:27:34,927 --> 00:27:40,647
And just to be sure I understand, Jeffrey, I believe I knew this at one point but have since perhaps forgotten.

355
00:27:41,147 --> 00:27:46,687
The indemnification clearly was first and foremost for the pharmaceutical companies themselves.

356
00:27:46,687 --> 00:27:53,927
So I hear you saying that it was specifically extended to private companies, to employers?

357
00:27:54,867 --> 00:27:56,167
Well, that's the way the courts are treated.

358
00:27:56,567 --> 00:27:57,027
Treated it.

359
00:27:57,187 --> 00:27:58,467
I mean, they've dismissed everything.

360
00:27:58,567 --> 00:27:59,367
You lack standing.

361
00:27:59,607 --> 00:28:00,767
Do these shots are indemnified?

362
00:28:01,107 --> 00:28:05,587
There's no—we're not accepting any claims of injury claims.

363
00:28:05,767 --> 00:28:07,107
Nobody's responsible for this.

364
00:28:07,227 --> 00:28:09,627
And there's several layers of indemnification.

365
00:28:10,027 --> 00:28:13,767
I mean, this is why they ended up putting the shot on the childhood schedule, right?

366
00:28:13,767 --> 00:28:17,407
Because once it goes on a childhood schedule, it's indemnified again.

367
00:28:17,487 --> 00:28:20,447
It was already indemnified with the emergency use authorization.

368
00:28:20,807 --> 00:28:22,607
That was only taken off yesterday.

369
00:28:24,127 --> 00:28:27,827
And then it was indemnified once the shot got added to the childhood schedule.

370
00:28:28,087 --> 00:28:30,367
So the shots are now free and clear.

371
00:28:30,427 --> 00:28:33,107
They can just do anything to you, and there's no consequence.

372
00:28:33,407 --> 00:28:38,187
So you're telling me that a free market allows private companies to do this?

373
00:28:38,207 --> 00:28:39,067
I don't think so.

374
00:28:39,067 --> 00:28:43,007
How does one fail in that situation as a company, right, as a pharmaceutical company?

375
00:28:43,007 --> 00:28:45,287
And then you had the Cato-Wenster going, oh, free enterprise.

376
00:28:45,807 --> 00:28:46,887
So, yeah, there you go.

377
00:28:47,067 --> 00:28:56,347
So I'm really very unhappy about the performance of our free market intellectuals.

378
00:28:56,347 --> 00:29:04,707
So in lieu of that, and, you know, here's an easy question, where should we look?

379
00:29:05,327 --> 00:29:05,487
Yeah.

380
00:29:07,947 --> 00:29:11,847
Well, we need a new intellectual paradigm as far as I'm concerned.

381
00:29:11,847 --> 00:29:19,467
One that's empirical, scientific, focused on reality, but also driven by fundamental, intuitive, moral principles.

382
00:29:20,187 --> 00:29:23,507
And that's why I founded Brownstone was to explain that.

383
00:29:23,687 --> 00:29:25,787
And please tell us more about Brownstone.

384
00:29:26,087 --> 00:29:27,447
Well, I started Brownstone in light of those.

385
00:29:27,527 --> 00:29:30,667
I said this is this chaos and nobody seemed to figure it out.

386
00:29:30,707 --> 00:29:32,027
All the old institutions are corrupt.

387
00:29:32,107 --> 00:29:34,827
We need a new institution to figure this out and what to do about it.

388
00:29:34,927 --> 00:29:40,427
And people said, you can't start a think tank based on an infectious disease.

389
00:29:41,267 --> 00:29:44,107
That's going to go away, and then you won't have anything to do.

390
00:29:44,187 --> 00:29:45,847
Plus, I've not seen your five-year plan.

391
00:29:45,987 --> 00:29:47,707
I don't see a clear mission statement.

392
00:29:48,627 --> 00:29:52,767
And my intuition the whole time was, yeah, I don't have a five-year plan.

393
00:29:53,047 --> 00:29:54,767
Eh, our mission statement's a little vague.

394
00:29:55,107 --> 00:29:58,227
Yeah, I know the pandemic will end, but I'm telling you these are new times,

395
00:29:58,427 --> 00:30:00,187
and we need a new way of thinking.

396
00:30:00,187 --> 00:30:05,687
We need new colleagues, a new emphasis, and new tactics.

397
00:30:05,907 --> 00:30:09,187
And a lot of it are based on the success of the Great Banshee Declaration.

398
00:30:09,187 --> 00:30:16,207
And here we are four years later, and I mean, Brownstone is rocking the world.

399
00:30:16,207 --> 00:30:25,327
Like last week, we had a massive tangle with one of the top pharmaceutical companies.

400
00:30:26,987 --> 00:30:39,167
And just to get down to a very granular level, we have several Brownstone associates that are associated with the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices associated with CDC.

401
00:30:39,187 --> 00:30:54,667
They split. Some voted for the new RSV shot. Some voted against it. One of our fellows wrote an article saying, look, the documentation that the ACIP committee was given the day before the vote was fraught with problems.

402
00:30:54,667 --> 00:30:57,027
They buried deaths in footnotes.

403
00:30:58,287 --> 00:31:01,127
They didn't pool the data.

404
00:31:01,467 --> 00:31:07,747
They split it arbitrarily in ways to bury the safety signals and statistical insignificance.

405
00:31:07,847 --> 00:31:08,427
Wrote this.

406
00:31:09,327 --> 00:31:11,867
And then other people piled on and piled on.

407
00:31:11,867 --> 00:31:20,247
And then finally, some guy I'd never heard of, a far-flung doctor in some remote clinic at Stanford University,

408
00:31:20,247 --> 00:31:29,127
writes a huge attack on all this work that came out of all places in Quillette, which I think used

409
00:31:29,127 --> 00:31:34,087
to be considered a right-wing publication. And when I read it, I said, well, you know,

410
00:31:34,107 --> 00:31:39,467
this is kind of compelling, and I'm not a scientist, so if I find it a little bit interesting,

411
00:31:39,467 --> 00:31:47,407
this response, maybe other people will also. Well, within 18 hours, not even that long,

412
00:31:47,407 --> 00:32:08,627
A epidemiologist in Israel named Yafashiraz wrote a response to it that was so devastating that it was definitely the kind of message that says, you know, come after Brownstone, F-A-F-O.

413
00:32:08,907 --> 00:32:11,187
I mean, it was that devastating.

414
00:32:11,807 --> 00:32:14,147
That had to feel good in its own way?

415
00:32:14,287 --> 00:32:14,567
Yeah, right.

416
00:32:14,567 --> 00:32:16,567
But, you know, what other venue would do this?

417
00:32:16,907 --> 00:32:17,187
Right.

418
00:32:17,407 --> 00:32:30,995
the result was just dead silence And it a warning now For the first time in certainly 30 years maybe 100 years to all the pharmaceutical companies you not going to get away with your shit anymore

419
00:32:31,295 --> 00:32:33,155
You can't just lie with your statistics.

420
00:32:33,755 --> 00:32:38,035
You can't just get a broad brush called science

421
00:32:38,035 --> 00:32:40,995
and paint a veneer on your crap anymore.

422
00:32:41,375 --> 00:32:42,915
So we've now got some accountability.

423
00:32:43,215 --> 00:32:44,775
That's just one area we're doing.

424
00:32:44,995 --> 00:32:46,575
But we're doing all these other areas,

425
00:32:46,575 --> 00:32:57,955
bringing intellectual credibility to these vital issues of public life in the interest of restoring freedom and giving people their lives back.

426
00:32:58,195 --> 00:33:07,975
And I think that's the kind of hard work you can do, which involves more than sharing memes or just reading memes or listening to some blather on a podcast.

427
00:33:08,555 --> 00:33:10,455
No, none taken.

428
00:33:10,455 --> 00:33:11,255
I guess.

429
00:33:12,875 --> 00:33:13,535
It is.

430
00:33:13,595 --> 00:33:16,915
This will not be the deepest treatment of the subject matter.

431
00:33:17,175 --> 00:33:21,755
No, but I'm just saying that we have to have—our experts have to outwit their experts.

432
00:33:21,995 --> 00:33:24,375
I think that's our strategy.

433
00:33:25,235 --> 00:33:26,195
That's our goal.

434
00:33:26,475 --> 00:33:28,855
And I do that not just to overthrow the state.

435
00:33:29,195 --> 00:33:37,115
I do that out of a matter of intellectual integrity and out of fealty and piety towards this idea of truth.

436
00:33:37,575 --> 00:33:38,775
That's what we have to regain.

437
00:33:38,775 --> 00:33:56,555
It's hard to put a finer point on it than that. If we look then as we kind of continue to drill in, Jeffrey, the total state markets, let's presume, you know, national markets here in the United States down to communities and individuals.

438
00:33:56,555 --> 00:34:04,495
Does your work or rather in what ways does your work in the work of the Brownstone Institute speak to communities and individuals?

439
00:34:05,135 --> 00:34:22,195
And what are the, for lack of a better term, the calls to action for communities and individuals, families to rebuild the trust in each other, if not these higher order institutions and markets?

440
00:34:22,195 --> 00:34:37,535
Yeah. Well, I think what we have to do is exercise critical intelligence to understand all the ways in which we've been manipulated and the way our way of thinking has been distorted through these systems of power that have gradually crept into our lives.

441
00:34:37,535 --> 00:34:50,595
And I don't think the answer is the same for everybody, but my book, Spirits of America, goes as far as anything I've written to kind of deal with this problem, like recovering the old values.

442
00:34:50,595 --> 00:35:01,975
I think part of it involves learning how to unplug, you know, and get back patience and forbearance and find things to do with your hands.

443
00:35:02,095 --> 00:35:05,355
I mean, like, you can't let them do this to us anymore.

444
00:35:06,874 --> 00:35:14,975
And, yeah, I'd like to see taxes and regulations go down and, you know, the debt, the budget balanced and all these things.

445
00:35:15,394 --> 00:35:20,374
But ultimately, the repairs happen to have to take place within our own lives.

446
00:35:20,374 --> 00:35:29,695
And we've strayed so far from normalcy and from decency and civilized standards that, you know, it's got to start with each of us in our own lives.

447
00:35:29,995 --> 00:35:36,175
And so a lot of my writing, when I write every day, Epoch Times, you know, comes down to this.

448
00:35:36,315 --> 00:35:38,475
Like, just think more carefully about.

449
00:35:39,195 --> 00:35:47,035
So one of the habits you get into in a highly commoditized commercial society is you think anything's for sale is good for you.

450
00:35:47,035 --> 00:35:50,415
and that any problem you have can be solved by something that's for sale.

451
00:35:51,015 --> 00:35:54,475
I mean, this has been going on for, you know, 150 years or something like that.

452
00:35:54,874 --> 00:35:55,835
Well, that may not be true.

453
00:35:56,195 --> 00:35:58,415
I mean, the things you're buying may be killing you, you know.

454
00:35:58,894 --> 00:36:02,255
Your problems may not be soluble through—

455
00:36:02,255 --> 00:36:04,435
Which is a rude awakening for many, many people.

456
00:36:04,455 --> 00:36:04,855
Shock.

457
00:36:05,155 --> 00:36:05,874
And understandably.

458
00:36:05,935 --> 00:36:07,475
Like taking responsibility.

459
00:36:07,475 --> 00:36:09,555
I mean, that's an amazing thing.

460
00:36:09,655 --> 00:36:11,235
And we're exercising critical intelligence.

461
00:36:11,355 --> 00:36:13,815
And I see this is starting to happen more and more.

462
00:36:13,815 --> 00:36:19,455
You know, in the old days, you know, every corporation thought they could just fob anything off on the population.

463
00:36:19,655 --> 00:36:24,635
People would blindly just buy it and forget about it.

464
00:36:24,795 --> 00:36:32,115
And there's an aspect of market ideology that sort of blesses that.

465
00:36:32,215 --> 00:36:33,295
Like, just trust.

466
00:36:33,715 --> 00:36:35,055
Just trust the businesses.

467
00:36:35,255 --> 00:36:36,374
They'll take care of you, you know.

468
00:36:36,655 --> 00:36:37,335
Well, that's not true.

469
00:36:37,475 --> 00:36:41,855
I mean, and people are trying to get incredulous now even towards the large corporations.

470
00:36:41,855 --> 00:36:42,775
So I think it's a good thing.

471
00:36:42,775 --> 00:36:44,255
Like what just happened with Cracker Barrel?

472
00:36:44,335 --> 00:36:45,455
They tried to change their logo.

473
00:36:45,695 --> 00:36:46,255
Fascinating.

474
00:36:46,675 --> 00:37:02,894
Cracker Barrel logo is actually you're a consumer, you're sovereign, and you don't want to be using your dollars to support values that are against human life and against your own personal progress and thriving.

475
00:37:03,795 --> 00:37:06,095
And people are developing a real sophistication.

476
00:37:06,095 --> 00:37:12,675
They saw a change in the logo here as indicative of some rot at the heart of this company.

477
00:37:12,775 --> 00:37:20,815
And there was a, like, a revolt that ended up tanking the stock company and then reversing the decision.

478
00:37:21,175 --> 00:37:24,275
And my guess is that there's going to be a management of people there, too.

479
00:37:24,355 --> 00:37:27,675
So this is, to me, an example of people have power, right?

480
00:37:27,675 --> 00:37:41,115
But it's using your critical intelligence to examine the things that are around you all the time and not just trust because it's for sale and not just trust because it's coming from the government.

481
00:37:41,115 --> 00:37:46,155
And with the loss of trust, you have to start getting incredulous towards everything.

482
00:37:46,815 --> 00:37:51,835
And I think this is a good thing, but it's going to require we take a different approach to life itself.

483
00:37:52,655 --> 00:37:54,355
We have to get out of our old habits.

484
00:37:54,575 --> 00:37:58,215
Our old habits led to the calamity of 2020 and following.

485
00:37:59,155 --> 00:38:01,255
And we can't ever do that again.

486
00:38:01,355 --> 00:38:04,374
So if we want to take back our lives, we really have to take them back.

487
00:38:04,374 --> 00:38:17,675
And that means taking charge of, you know, diet and exercise and health and mental acuity and, you know, education and our faiths and, you know, every aspect of it.

488
00:38:17,675 --> 00:38:17,735
Everything.

489
00:38:19,335 --> 00:38:21,115
And that is so poignant.

490
00:38:21,115 --> 00:38:37,815
And I, in conversations with individuals about why I'm doing this, why I started it, so often the point comes up that much of at least American society has been operating under a model whereby there is a trusted authority.

491
00:38:38,315 --> 00:38:42,995
And they will hand down or dictate to you that which you will, who you will trust.

492
00:38:43,435 --> 00:38:45,295
And we salute.

493
00:38:45,455 --> 00:38:46,695
We go about our way.

494
00:38:46,695 --> 00:38:59,835
And to your point, just as the three R's, just as media critique and the ability to discern what is and what is not true, we must do the same thing with trust.

495
00:38:59,835 --> 00:39:05,635
I want to ask one more question, Jeffrey, before we get into the meat of this and discuss Spirits of America.

496
00:39:06,374 --> 00:39:16,275
To set the – to further set the table for that conversation, could you talk to us about your roots in Austrian economics and enlightenment ideals?

497
00:39:17,195 --> 00:39:25,975
And tell me how that informed your vision for this regeneration or reinvigoration of society that the book speaks to.

498
00:39:25,975 --> 00:39:42,035
Well, it just so happened that the tradition of economics that I found myself drawn to is rooted in a sort of Aristotelian scholastic tradition in continental Europe that very much is called Austrian economics because it's from Austria.

499
00:39:42,035 --> 00:39:53,955
But it differed very strongly from the German historical school, which is purely empirical and statist in its orientation, thinking that, you know, the job of an economist is always just to look at statistics.

500
00:39:53,955 --> 00:40:01,894
the Austrian school believed that the job of an economist was to understand the relationship of

501
00:40:01,894 --> 00:40:06,435
cause and effect in the course of human affairs insofar as it impacted on the material world.

502
00:40:06,635 --> 00:40:12,115
And that was praxeology, human action. Yeah, well, praxeology is one aspect of it, but in

503
00:40:12,115 --> 00:40:18,915
McGarrett, it was like a strong emphasis on humane understandings of how society works and

504
00:40:18,915 --> 00:40:23,535
And a focus on cause and effect and logic, right?

505
00:40:23,915 --> 00:40:26,535
Not just empirics, but logic.

506
00:40:26,955 --> 00:40:31,235
And that tradition ends up being pretty darn fruitful, you know?

507
00:40:31,374 --> 00:40:42,055
And it gave birth to a 20th century, what was in the old days called liberalism, but really it was this sort of resistance against many different forms of totalitarianism.

508
00:40:42,055 --> 00:40:45,935
And you see this in the works of F.A. Hayek and Ludovic Mises,

509
00:40:46,135 --> 00:40:49,135
and my own mentor, Murray Rothbard, and Eugenbaum,

510
00:40:49,195 --> 00:40:51,755
but Barwick, who was a finance minister in Austria,

511
00:40:51,915 --> 00:40:52,374
and many, many.

512
00:40:52,615 --> 00:40:55,255
Gottfried Habeler, another one of my mentors,

513
00:40:55,394 --> 00:40:58,315
one of my favorite thinkers, Joseph Schumpeter from Harvard,

514
00:40:58,394 --> 00:41:01,515
who moved over from Berlin, and actually University of Vienna.

515
00:41:02,095 --> 00:41:05,735
So lots of really interesting thinkers that were spent

516
00:41:05,735 --> 00:41:10,655
a better part of the century in a position of being dissidents

517
00:41:10,655 --> 00:41:12,515
against prevailing corruptions.

518
00:41:13,275 --> 00:41:15,535
And so, yeah, I threw myself into their works

519
00:41:15,535 --> 00:41:16,835
and learned a lot from them.

520
00:41:16,995 --> 00:41:19,295
There's still lots to learn from those guys,

521
00:41:19,495 --> 00:41:23,615
but all in preparation for—I now look back at it,

522
00:41:23,675 --> 00:41:25,755
and I had fun, you know, back in the old days

523
00:41:25,755 --> 00:41:29,815
when I was just writing about, you know,

524
00:41:29,854 --> 00:41:33,135
the problem with showerheads and, you know,

525
00:41:33,135 --> 00:41:35,275
things like this, you know, in the old days.

526
00:41:36,095 --> 00:41:38,315
Those were fun times, good times,

527
00:41:38,735 --> 00:41:39,775
the early days of the Internet.

528
00:41:39,775 --> 00:41:43,015
and celebrating, you know, progress and so on.

529
00:41:43,015 --> 00:41:47,555
But when the crisis hit in 2020, I felt like I had been well prepared

530
00:41:47,555 --> 00:41:55,975
with a good basis for understanding the world as it unfolded.

531
00:41:56,075 --> 00:42:00,215
I did make some surprising things happen, though, after 2020.

532
00:42:00,394 --> 00:42:01,394
I'll just tell you very quickly.

533
00:42:01,894 --> 00:42:06,854
After the rise of national sort of populism, you know, with Trump,

534
00:42:06,854 --> 00:42:11,275
I began to get very concerned about right-wing forms of statism.

535
00:42:11,415 --> 00:42:17,055
And I wrote a book that came out in 2017 called Right-Wing Collectivism, The Other Threat to Liberty.

536
00:42:17,575 --> 00:42:20,015
And there's nothing really wrong with the book.

537
00:42:20,535 --> 00:42:26,675
But necessarily when you're covering just one topic in a book, you're overlooking other topics.

538
00:42:26,815 --> 00:42:32,315
So while I was concerned about the nationalism of the right and the statism of the right,

539
00:42:32,315 --> 00:42:36,374
you know, the left was growing into this horrible monstrosity.

540
00:42:36,854 --> 00:42:46,615
So much to my discredit, it shocked me how terrible the left proved to be on COVID.

541
00:42:46,955 --> 00:43:03,955
And then as time went on, the people that ended up being really strangely good on COVID were the very people that I had warned against six years earlier, you know, or even just three years earlier, really.

542
00:43:03,955 --> 00:43:05,255
What was the hitch?

543
00:43:05,255 --> 00:43:08,435
What was the factor or factors it caused?

544
00:43:09,615 --> 00:43:11,075
The populists.

545
00:43:11,374 --> 00:43:19,874
So the good thing about populism that I don't think I fully understood when I wrote my book was that they distrust the elites.

546
00:43:20,975 --> 00:43:21,135
Right.

547
00:43:21,575 --> 00:43:23,055
And, boy, I tell you what.

548
00:43:23,615 --> 00:43:24,195
That alone.

549
00:43:24,555 --> 00:43:24,715
Yeah.

550
00:43:24,795 --> 00:43:30,115
In 2020, a distrust of elites took you a very, very long way.

551
00:43:30,515 --> 00:43:30,915
Indeed.

552
00:43:30,915 --> 00:43:31,715
Indeed.

553
00:43:33,715 --> 00:43:35,435
So God bless them, right?

554
00:43:35,635 --> 00:43:40,095
I mean, so I've—it's funny because next week—

555
00:43:40,095 --> 00:43:41,354
Even useful idiots are still useful.

556
00:43:41,995 --> 00:43:42,894
Well, it's just interesting.

557
00:43:43,315 --> 00:43:47,495
You know, so my allies and, you know, who's an ally and who's not, it's all shifting all over the place.

558
00:43:47,555 --> 00:43:48,575
It hasn't been for a long time.

559
00:43:48,575 --> 00:43:57,115
But I'm laughing because next week I'm going to speak at a conference called the National Conservative Conference.

560
00:43:57,255 --> 00:43:59,455
They invited me to speak, and it's led by this guy.

561
00:43:59,455 --> 00:44:04,675
Yaron Hazoni, who wrote a book called something like The Case for Nationalism.

562
00:44:05,335 --> 00:44:08,394
And when I read this book, I was just outraged.

563
00:44:08,475 --> 00:44:09,874
Oh, there's no case for nationalism.

564
00:44:09,874 --> 00:44:10,335
It was terrible.

565
00:44:11,135 --> 00:44:13,555
And I reviewed it very bitterly.

566
00:44:13,635 --> 00:44:14,555
But he very sweetly wrote me.

567
00:44:14,615 --> 00:44:16,095
I said, well, you make some interesting points.

568
00:44:16,135 --> 00:44:16,715
I think you're wrong.

569
00:44:17,655 --> 00:44:19,055
But maybe we need to have a debate.

570
00:44:19,135 --> 00:44:20,655
And I said, OK, yeah, we can have a debate.

571
00:44:21,175 --> 00:44:23,095
But we never were able to put together a debate.

572
00:44:23,195 --> 00:44:24,595
We kept missing each other somehow.

573
00:44:24,595 --> 00:44:30,315
But I had somehow held him out to be my betonois in some way.

574
00:44:31,515 --> 00:44:32,835
But he keeps seeing my writings.

575
00:44:33,015 --> 00:44:34,995
He's like, you know, you're getting much better.

576
00:44:38,975 --> 00:44:39,894
Stick at this.

577
00:44:40,075 --> 00:44:41,495
You might make a career of it.

578
00:44:41,515 --> 00:44:42,575
Why don't you come to my conference?

579
00:44:42,715 --> 00:44:44,255
And I said, you know, okay.

580
00:44:44,575 --> 00:44:46,374
So I'm just going next to him.

581
00:44:47,055 --> 00:44:48,854
I mean, they know who I am, right?

582
00:44:48,995 --> 00:44:49,215
Yeah.

583
00:44:49,335 --> 00:44:50,095
No doubt.

584
00:44:50,095 --> 00:44:53,935
But at my core, I'm a theoretical, you know.

585
00:44:53,935 --> 00:45:00,135
anarchist of the classical school, you know, so anarchist of the classical school. That's a

586
00:45:00,135 --> 00:45:06,635
business card. Okay, Jeffrey, well, let's get into the book. And what I'd like to do before we do so

587
00:45:06,635 --> 00:45:14,695
is, so the new book is Spirits of America, inspired by Eric Sloan's The Spirit of 76.

588
00:45:14,695 --> 00:45:16,015
Yeah, yeah.

589
00:45:16,015 --> 00:45:21,535
And in it, you reflect on liberty at the semi-quincentennial.

590
00:45:22,055 --> 00:45:26,015
As you note, it doesn't roll off the tongue, but it's important.

591
00:45:26,595 --> 00:45:30,835
And I want to run through the table of contents because I think this sets up the conversation.

592
00:45:32,755 --> 00:45:42,795
Beyond the opening, the preface and the meaning of the semi-quincentennial, we get into really, to me, a list of values, qualities.

593
00:45:42,795 --> 00:45:49,235
and I believe that which you are calling attention to as necessary to reinvigorate

594
00:45:49,235 --> 00:45:55,835
America and American society. So the spirit of respect, the spirit of work, the spirit of frugality,

595
00:45:55,835 --> 00:46:03,255
and it goes on, thankfulness, pioneering, godliness, agronomy, time, independence,

596
00:46:03,975 --> 00:46:11,695
awareness, enterprise, physicality, localism, and forbearance. So would you summarize, Jeffrey,

597
00:46:11,695 --> 00:46:14,475
why you felt called to write it

598
00:46:14,475 --> 00:46:17,755
and who the audience is

599
00:46:17,755 --> 00:46:20,335
and really what you hope they will take from it.

600
00:46:20,335 --> 00:46:21,435
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

601
00:46:21,835 --> 00:46:25,255
These are all very touching, meaningful questions to me.

602
00:46:25,315 --> 00:46:27,235
The book means a lot to me.

603
00:46:27,394 --> 00:46:29,455
And I know this because it's the first book,

604
00:46:29,495 --> 00:46:30,995
and I've written like 20, okay?

605
00:46:31,115 --> 00:46:32,354
But every time I write a book,

606
00:46:32,394 --> 00:46:33,135
I just put it on the shelf.

607
00:46:33,215 --> 00:46:33,795
I don't care about it.

608
00:46:34,015 --> 00:46:35,735
This one, I keep rereading again and again.

609
00:46:35,975 --> 00:46:37,874
And the one thing is very short.

610
00:46:37,874 --> 00:46:42,095
and I commissioned 15 pen and ink drawings

611
00:46:42,095 --> 00:46:42,995
to go with each chapter.

612
00:46:43,374 --> 00:46:45,995
And my prose style, I deliberately,

613
00:46:46,615 --> 00:46:49,675
I wanted it to be as raw and as truthful

614
00:46:49,675 --> 00:46:50,935
as I possibly could.

615
00:46:51,035 --> 00:46:52,235
So the sentences are short.

616
00:46:52,335 --> 00:46:54,095
I don't do a lot of razzle-dazzle.

617
00:46:54,115 --> 00:46:55,515
I don't show off fancy things.

618
00:46:56,175 --> 00:46:57,795
You know, oh, here's Hegel, here's Schumpeter.

619
00:46:57,915 --> 00:46:59,095
You know, I don't do any of that.

620
00:46:59,555 --> 00:47:00,915
It's all just like gritty.

621
00:47:00,915 --> 00:47:01,595
Very direct.

622
00:47:01,915 --> 00:47:03,415
Real life stuff.

623
00:47:03,894 --> 00:47:05,475
And it was meant to be read.

624
00:47:05,475 --> 00:47:09,555
And I'm glad to say that so far on Amazon, you know, everybody loves it.

625
00:47:09,655 --> 00:47:11,535
So I'm thrilled by it.

626
00:47:11,735 --> 00:47:16,035
But what happened to me, you know, we've all been living in this chaotic time.

627
00:47:16,115 --> 00:47:17,275
It's like, what the hell happened to us?

628
00:47:17,575 --> 00:47:18,235
What's true?

629
00:47:18,755 --> 00:47:20,255
What life changes did I end up making?

630
00:47:20,295 --> 00:47:21,455
What have I forgotten?

631
00:47:22,015 --> 00:47:25,335
You know, how come this happened and I didn't anticipate it, right?

632
00:47:25,435 --> 00:47:30,755
And so somebody pressed into my hand this Eric Sloan book, and I thought, this is, I read it.

633
00:47:31,175 --> 00:47:32,755
And I thought, this book is amazing.

634
00:47:32,755 --> 00:47:39,535
It just introduced me into a completely different way of thinking about the world.

635
00:47:39,635 --> 00:47:46,015
Because this is a book that celebrates pioneering and tools.

636
00:47:46,874 --> 00:47:47,915
Published in 73.

637
00:47:48,354 --> 00:47:48,735
73.

638
00:47:49,115 --> 00:47:51,815
But he's a historian, right, of an history.

639
00:47:51,815 --> 00:48:02,495
So he's mostly writing about 18th and 19th century America, about the values and the difficulties and struggles that come with entering into a barren land.

640
00:48:02,755 --> 00:48:14,195
And finding a home, building a home, planting crops, making tools, raising families, building up communities.

641
00:48:14,655 --> 00:48:19,195
And what are the habits and mores and values that are associated with that?

642
00:48:19,775 --> 00:48:21,555
Because that's what we need, you know.

643
00:48:21,555 --> 00:48:25,575
And when I read the book, it was just one of those moments where I thought, my God.

644
00:48:25,575 --> 00:48:27,755
I think part of me

645
00:48:27,755 --> 00:48:29,735
have previously believed that

646
00:48:29,735 --> 00:48:30,655
if you have a market,

647
00:48:31,835 --> 00:48:41,682
whatever that means everything takes care of itself Right We can just then float around in happiness and stream music and buy a tech call

648
00:48:41,682 --> 00:48:43,782
Perfect information of pricing in a market

649
00:48:43,782 --> 00:48:44,462
and all the following.

650
00:48:44,462 --> 00:48:46,002
Just make sure your iPhone's up to date

651
00:48:46,002 --> 00:48:47,182
and, you know, live school.

652
00:48:48,502 --> 00:48:50,422
And so after me, it's slow, and I thought,

653
00:48:50,802 --> 00:48:53,002
my God, I have neglected so much.

654
00:48:53,102 --> 00:48:55,482
There's a huge world out there

655
00:48:55,482 --> 00:48:57,502
that I've been invited to completely overlook.

656
00:48:58,062 --> 00:49:00,122
So struck by this, and then realizing

657
00:49:00,122 --> 00:49:05,562
that Derek Sloan Foundation would not put this book back in print ever

658
00:49:05,562 --> 00:49:08,522
and that there were very few copies remaining.

659
00:49:08,662 --> 00:49:11,622
Now, if you try to get one, it's $4,000 at the last price.

660
00:49:11,742 --> 00:49:13,962
I did take a look, and I was amazed.

661
00:49:14,522 --> 00:49:17,042
You can get his other books, and all of his books are great,

662
00:49:17,122 --> 00:49:21,722
but this one was sort of banned by the family.

663
00:49:22,282 --> 00:49:22,682
Interesting.

664
00:49:23,042 --> 00:49:26,362
Yeah, but so I decided, well, look, I'm going to rewrite this myself.

665
00:49:26,362 --> 00:49:30,242
and I rewrote it thematically,

666
00:49:30,522 --> 00:49:32,442
but there's no duplication of content.

667
00:49:33,022 --> 00:49:35,162
I took his lessons and then riffed on it.

668
00:49:36,382 --> 00:49:38,682
A lot of it is autobiographical, right?

669
00:49:38,742 --> 00:49:39,382
As you notice.

670
00:49:39,982 --> 00:49:41,062
Just stories from one life.

671
00:49:41,562 --> 00:49:42,262
Here's the thing.

672
00:49:42,502 --> 00:49:43,502
In the age of AI,

673
00:49:43,662 --> 00:49:45,602
AI can do all this automatic thinking out there.

674
00:49:45,602 --> 00:49:46,902
It can regurgitate what's known

675
00:49:46,902 --> 00:49:47,922
and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

676
00:49:48,002 --> 00:49:49,142
Yay, it's very impressive.

677
00:49:49,262 --> 00:49:50,662
But the one thing AI cannot do

678
00:49:50,662 --> 00:49:52,762
is replicate experiences in your own life.

679
00:49:52,762 --> 00:49:59,742
And so I tried, I more than anything else wanted this book to be true.

680
00:50:00,402 --> 00:50:00,702
Okay?

681
00:50:00,782 --> 00:50:02,782
That doesn't mean I'm a dispenser of truth.

682
00:50:02,842 --> 00:50:12,762
It means that I wanted to struggle as hard as I possibly could to get as close to a conception of truth that I felt confident in.

683
00:50:13,462 --> 00:50:18,402
So I could rally around this book and say, this is what I currently believe.

684
00:50:18,402 --> 00:50:24,782
put aside all the razzle-dazzle, all the careerism, fear of what other people are going to think.

685
00:50:25,022 --> 00:50:30,982
Let's just throw all that crap out and just get down to the raw core of things.

686
00:50:31,082 --> 00:50:32,022
And that's what I did.

687
00:50:32,322 --> 00:50:34,142
I wrote it in one day, okay?

688
00:50:34,242 --> 00:50:35,682
So I'm not going to be shy about that.

689
00:50:35,802 --> 00:50:38,882
I'll just tell you that I woke up one morning and by the night I was finished.

690
00:50:39,382 --> 00:50:42,722
So it's just one stream, you know.

691
00:50:43,922 --> 00:50:45,402
96 pages in a day.

692
00:50:45,402 --> 00:50:51,422
To those of us that are not writers, that seems indistinguishable from magic.

693
00:50:51,942 --> 00:50:54,142
Well, it wrote itself, really.

694
00:50:54,542 --> 00:50:58,182
And I trusted my first intuitions, really.

695
00:50:58,322 --> 00:51:02,262
And the fact that I wrote it in such a short period of time means that it's fairly integrated.

696
00:51:02,962 --> 00:51:03,202
Yes.

697
00:51:03,302 --> 00:51:05,882
One chapter easily flows to the next.

698
00:51:07,342 --> 00:51:10,622
And I resist making some grand conclusion.

699
00:51:10,622 --> 00:51:21,102
And I broke it down that way partially because I reflected somewhat the structure of Sloan's own book, but added in my own chapters, right?

700
00:51:22,402 --> 00:51:30,682
I think I had forbearance and physicality, and I think those I added in there, just because I had the opportunity to do that.

701
00:51:31,042 --> 00:51:34,702
The other thing is that Sloan, I think by 1973, was deeply depressed.

702
00:51:35,542 --> 00:51:40,202
And so by the end of his book, he's like, you could see he wrote it on contract.

703
00:51:40,202 --> 00:51:42,062
You could see he could barely finish it.

704
00:51:42,782 --> 00:51:45,542
And he was despairing by the end.

705
00:51:45,742 --> 00:51:47,122
God, this shitty world.

706
00:51:47,582 --> 00:51:49,302
Maybe that's why it's not on the market, huh?

707
00:51:49,642 --> 00:51:50,122
Yeah, maybe.

708
00:51:50,482 --> 00:51:59,502
The reason it's not on the market is the chapter on work where he just thinks that everybody just needs to work all the time.

709
00:51:59,582 --> 00:52:00,682
He's like, you need a job.

710
00:52:00,782 --> 00:52:06,722
A human being is not meant to be languishing forever in leisure doing nothing.

711
00:52:07,682 --> 00:52:09,682
We're supposed to have tasks ahead of us.

712
00:52:09,682 --> 00:52:12,642
We're supposed to accomplish them with joy and not regret.

713
00:52:13,282 --> 00:52:17,722
And as you called that, I believe that work and life are inseparable.

714
00:52:18,222 --> 00:52:18,442
Yeah.

715
00:52:18,942 --> 00:52:19,202
Yeah.

716
00:52:19,362 --> 00:52:20,522
So it's unbelievable that.

717
00:52:20,522 --> 00:52:24,942
And, you know, let me just quickly back up side.

718
00:52:25,042 --> 00:52:33,282
So there's a chapter in here where he talks about the problem of regretting toil, right?

719
00:52:33,402 --> 00:52:35,242
And he said, look around.

720
00:52:35,442 --> 00:52:36,302
And this is 1973.

721
00:52:37,102 --> 00:52:39,642
Everybody's trying to find some way to get out of doing something.

722
00:52:39,682 --> 00:52:43,862
And every advertisement tells you how terrible your life is.

723
00:52:43,922 --> 00:52:48,562
So get this product and that'll make it shorter, save time.

724
00:52:49,202 --> 00:52:50,562
You don't need to have a dinner.

725
00:52:50,862 --> 00:52:52,082
You just, you know, eat on the run.

726
00:52:52,142 --> 00:52:52,982
Here's your fast food.

727
00:52:53,422 --> 00:52:56,502
You know, hold a sandwich in one hand, drive it the other.

728
00:52:56,582 --> 00:52:57,562
That way you can do two things.

729
00:52:57,702 --> 00:53:01,922
As they say, you can sell vitamins or painkillers and painkillers sell better.

730
00:53:03,382 --> 00:53:03,882
That's right.

731
00:53:04,702 --> 00:53:07,122
So I began to think, my God, that is true.

732
00:53:07,122 --> 00:53:12,582
We have an economy all configured around the idea that I hate my life.

733
00:53:13,202 --> 00:53:14,882
And so everything you do, you hate.

734
00:53:15,602 --> 00:53:17,682
You don't mind eating, but you hate cleaning up.

735
00:53:18,222 --> 00:53:20,862
You don't mind sleeping, but you hate making your bed.

736
00:53:22,362 --> 00:53:23,762
You don't mind having things.

737
00:53:23,822 --> 00:53:24,802
We get mad when they break.

738
00:53:26,302 --> 00:53:32,862
It's like how much of your day is filled with things that you're being told are terrible?

739
00:53:33,682 --> 00:53:38,842
And why we hate them so much, we want to make them last as short as possible.

740
00:53:38,962 --> 00:53:49,022
We acquire tools and tools and tools and tools and gizmos and things so we can reduce the amount of time we have to spend doing this thing that we hate so that we can go on to the next thing that we're encouraged to hate.

741
00:53:49,382 --> 00:53:53,562
And then we hate that so we get a tool to make that as short so we can go on to the next thing that we hate.

742
00:53:53,562 --> 00:53:55,802
At what point do you start loving life?

743
00:53:55,802 --> 00:54:05,002
And so one of the messages that Sloan says in there is that you need to start finding joy in routine.

744
00:54:05,562 --> 00:54:08,882
Not always looking for dopamine, but find joy in routine.

745
00:54:09,542 --> 00:54:11,382
And it seems like a simple thing.

746
00:54:11,722 --> 00:54:13,702
But after I read that, I thought, you know, that's right.

747
00:54:14,382 --> 00:54:17,082
I've had a pile of dirty dishes over there for three days.

748
00:54:17,082 --> 00:54:21,702
And why don't I go there and lovingly clean it with precision?

749
00:54:22,042 --> 00:54:24,482
And don't put them away wet, but try them carefully.

750
00:54:24,482 --> 00:54:31,842
And once I changed my mind about this is stupid, but once I began to change my mind, okay, there's a pan to clean.

751
00:54:32,182 --> 00:54:34,782
You know, I could clean that thing up a little bit too.

752
00:54:34,982 --> 00:54:36,482
And there's a spot in the refrigerator.

753
00:54:36,842 --> 00:54:38,762
Why am I letting that sit there?

754
00:54:38,762 --> 00:54:46,322
And I began to kind of think, I can find joy in doing things that I previously thought were a big pain in the neck.

755
00:54:46,502 --> 00:54:48,342
And it was a mental shift.

756
00:54:48,462 --> 00:54:50,282
And it happened all in one day.

757
00:54:50,462 --> 00:54:53,122
And I began to notice this is true for everything.

758
00:54:53,722 --> 00:54:55,742
Why haven't I taken that trash out?

759
00:54:55,842 --> 00:54:58,362
How come those empty balls have been sitting there for two weeks?

760
00:54:59,062 --> 00:55:09,102
And I started looking at myself as being blessed with two hands and a brain and an opportunity to at least make my little space.

761
00:55:09,162 --> 00:55:10,662
But I'm not just talking about cleaning the house.

762
00:55:10,702 --> 00:55:12,222
I'm talking about, like, everything.

763
00:55:12,882 --> 00:55:15,002
Why do we curse when we have to go to a store?

764
00:55:15,062 --> 00:55:17,062
Oh, damn it, we're out of toilet paper again.

765
00:55:17,402 --> 00:55:20,462
Why are you saying, why, damn it, we're out of toilet paper?

766
00:55:20,462 --> 00:55:23,082
That's just like you have an opportunity to do something.

767
00:55:23,622 --> 00:55:24,382
Just do it.

768
00:55:24,462 --> 00:55:25,782
Just shut the fuck up.

769
00:55:25,962 --> 00:55:26,142
Right?

770
00:55:26,282 --> 00:55:26,682
Absolutely.

771
00:55:27,142 --> 00:55:34,362
I mean, and it's, you know, and I think I am struck by this in the sense that from the Protestant work ethic to Buddhist practice, right?

772
00:55:34,482 --> 00:55:36,422
Buddhist practice, when I sweep the floor, I sweep the floor.

773
00:55:36,542 --> 00:55:37,942
When I wash the dishes, I wash the dishes.

774
00:55:38,102 --> 00:55:38,662
It is mindfulness.

775
00:55:38,902 --> 00:55:39,462
It is meditation.

776
00:55:40,682 --> 00:55:41,282
To Stoics.

777
00:55:41,442 --> 00:55:43,222
You take pride in that.

778
00:55:43,302 --> 00:55:43,542
Yes.

779
00:55:43,902 --> 00:55:46,842
And that's why I was reflecting on the life of the farmer.

780
00:55:46,842 --> 00:55:49,922
You know, I had one experience in my life with a farmer.

781
00:55:50,462 --> 00:55:53,782
And it sticks with me because we got up very early, 4 a.m. or whatever.

782
00:55:54,262 --> 00:55:57,262
But we went out, and most of the time was fixing things.

783
00:55:57,662 --> 00:56:09,122
And I remember being struck by the fact that he was never upset that the fence was broke, that the nail was rusty, that the wood didn't fit, that the horse was being a pain in the neck, that the pig got out.

784
00:56:09,262 --> 00:56:10,462
He was not upset by that.

785
00:56:11,002 --> 00:56:12,082
He was like, this is my job.

786
00:56:12,422 --> 00:56:13,162
This is what I do.

787
00:56:13,442 --> 00:56:14,382
He was patient.

788
00:56:14,642 --> 00:56:16,902
He never rushed to anything.

789
00:56:17,402 --> 00:56:19,062
He's just very patient.

790
00:56:19,062 --> 00:56:20,502
We have to cut a new piece of wood.

791
00:56:20,902 --> 00:56:22,062
Oh, the saw is broken.

792
00:56:22,382 --> 00:56:23,802
Oh, the saw needs a new thing.

793
00:56:24,182 --> 00:56:25,322
Let's get a new thing in there.

794
00:56:25,502 --> 00:56:26,322
Fix this thing.

795
00:56:26,402 --> 00:56:27,042
It needs some oil.

796
00:56:27,262 --> 00:56:28,582
And now, oh, the oil can's empty.

797
00:56:28,702 --> 00:56:29,382
Have to get some oil.

798
00:56:29,642 --> 00:56:30,762
And this is what he does.

799
00:56:31,182 --> 00:56:33,002
He's very calm about it, right?

800
00:56:33,462 --> 00:56:34,702
Like, how can you be so calm?

801
00:56:34,842 --> 00:56:36,242
Everything is broken around here.

802
00:56:36,782 --> 00:56:37,182
Yes!

803
00:56:37,722 --> 00:56:38,222
How can he do it?

804
00:56:38,242 --> 00:56:39,062
Nothing works, right?

805
00:56:39,402 --> 00:56:40,902
How can you be so calm?

806
00:56:41,242 --> 00:56:42,022
Why aren't you angry?

807
00:56:42,102 --> 00:56:43,282
Like the rest of us, right?

808
00:56:43,382 --> 00:56:44,202
Yes, yes.

809
00:56:44,202 --> 00:56:45,542
How dare you be at peace?

810
00:56:45,842 --> 00:56:47,142
Well, he was happy.

811
00:56:47,522 --> 00:56:48,262
He was happy.

812
00:56:48,262 --> 00:56:54,482
And I remember sitting at, I guess it was dinner time, what they call supper on the farm.

813
00:56:54,642 --> 00:57:01,902
Because you had a huge breakfast, then a tiny, then a sandwich for lunch, and then you just have soup or something for dinner, you know.

814
00:57:02,022 --> 00:57:03,582
And we were sitting at soup, and he said, huh.

815
00:57:03,862 --> 00:57:06,662
He got up, he looked out the back and saw somebody moving.

816
00:57:07,002 --> 00:57:12,462
He goes over the wall, grabs his gun, opens the window, and blasts this thing with his gun.

817
00:57:13,782 --> 00:57:16,602
He does the same, puts it back on the wall and sits down.

818
00:57:16,602 --> 00:57:18,222
I said, I'm sorry, what just happened?

819
00:57:18,262 --> 00:57:19,842
Well, there's a varmint out there.

820
00:57:20,002 --> 00:57:20,802
Do what you got to do.

821
00:57:21,962 --> 00:57:30,182
And I tell you, Jeffrey, when I was reading your book, which I really, truly enjoyed, and it did speak to me in its coherence.

822
00:57:31,022 --> 00:57:38,722
And it's the kind of book, I don't want to give fluffy praise, but I think it is a book that I will and others will return to time and time again.

823
00:57:40,002 --> 00:57:43,482
What kept coming to me were my grandparents.

824
00:57:44,282 --> 00:57:51,662
And so, you know, at the risk of some personal information, my parents did their best.

825
00:57:51,742 --> 00:58:02,442
My grandparents, as I have said to so many, my wife most of all, the man I am flows predominantly from my grandfathers and from my grandmothers.

826
00:58:02,442 --> 00:58:05,702
And my grandfathers both fought in World War II.

827
00:58:06,342 --> 00:58:08,262
That is shorthand for many things.

828
00:58:08,262 --> 00:58:16,082
but I learned so much. And as is the case, I suppose, for a human being, it is only when

829
00:58:16,082 --> 00:58:20,502
you're older that you look back and realize the importance of some of the lessons that

830
00:58:20,502 --> 00:58:25,482
were somehow embedded within you, but you didn't really give enough attention to.

831
00:58:26,062 --> 00:58:33,522
And so I think in reading Spirits of America, I was reminded of so much of that. And I'm

832
00:58:33,522 --> 00:58:40,682
somewhat embarrassed often in personal conversations to admit, as you mentioned earlier, how much

833
00:58:40,682 --> 00:58:48,562
I have either forgotten or simply didn't put into focus enough to learn until later in life.

834
00:58:48,842 --> 00:58:56,722
And I think that, you know, this book, I believe for those who are so gifted as to know all those

835
00:58:56,722 --> 00:59:02,602
things already, it will emphasize and strengthen. And for those of us who are still very much

836
00:59:02,602 --> 00:59:09,462
learning, I think it paints a picture, as I say, for what I believe are the kinds of things that we

837
00:59:09,462 --> 00:59:17,742
need to reinvigorate, ultimately, trust in one another, in our communities, in our families,

838
00:59:17,842 --> 00:59:23,362
in ourselves, and not to put too grand or fine a point on it. But that really is what I take from

839
00:59:23,362 --> 00:59:30,862
it and what I want to emphasize. And so as we wrap up, Jeffrey, I'd love to conclude with this.

840
00:59:30,862 --> 00:59:41,082
when individuals ultimately, I hope, are inspired by this conversation and others in the show to

841
00:59:41,082 --> 00:59:45,662
reinvestigate, reexamine personal freedom and what it means to them.

842
00:59:46,782 --> 00:59:55,002
What would you call out among the, let's see, 12? I'm skimming without numbers here,

843
00:59:55,002 --> 01:00:02,242
the 12-plus chapters, you know, what do you think are the real core lessons from either the book or

844
01:00:02,242 --> 01:00:08,942
that you would want to convey otherwise about reclaiming personal freedom in light of these

845
01:00:08,942 --> 01:00:17,302
institutions sort of run amok and having lost our trust? Yeah, there's just so much in the book

846
01:00:17,302 --> 01:00:24,222
that is deeply personal and every chapter means something.

847
01:00:24,462 --> 01:00:26,302
I think more than anything else,

848
01:00:27,742 --> 01:00:32,542
we need to reclaim our freedom by first reclaiming our time

849
01:00:32,542 --> 01:00:37,882
and the use of our time, the use of our personal space,

850
01:00:38,022 --> 01:00:42,582
and reclaim our brains from those people who have stolen them from us.

851
01:00:42,962 --> 01:00:46,222
And you need to realize all the ways in which that's happening.

852
01:00:47,302 --> 01:00:49,942
before you can really do that.

853
01:00:50,702 --> 01:00:53,302
You know, how many conversations have you had recently

854
01:00:53,302 --> 01:00:55,502
that have been interrupted because the person got a text

855
01:00:55,502 --> 01:00:56,442
and they're checking it?

856
01:00:57,282 --> 01:00:59,622
And what that person is really saying is,

857
01:00:59,622 --> 01:01:02,862
Mr. Internet over here is much more important than you are.

858
01:01:03,262 --> 01:01:05,382
And that's dehumanizing.

859
01:01:05,862 --> 01:01:09,382
It's dehumanizing to the person with whom you're speaking to do that.

860
01:01:09,922 --> 01:01:11,142
So how do we deal with that?

861
01:01:11,262 --> 01:01:13,982
And I'm trying to get better at this myself, just saying,

862
01:01:14,822 --> 01:01:16,422
hey, listen, if we're going to be here talking,

863
01:01:16,422 --> 01:01:18,802
it would be best if we just talk with each other.

864
01:01:19,242 --> 01:01:21,002
Like, I need to care what you're saying

865
01:01:21,002 --> 01:01:22,422
and you need to care what I am saying.

866
01:01:23,222 --> 01:01:25,962
So maybe just pull the thing away.

867
01:01:26,702 --> 01:01:29,662
Or the most annoying thing to me in the world

868
01:01:29,662 --> 01:01:31,602
is when you're having a nice conversation

869
01:01:31,602 --> 01:01:33,202
and there's a question about,

870
01:01:33,442 --> 01:01:35,502
and they pull it out and ask, you know,

871
01:01:36,162 --> 01:01:37,002
Chad GPT.

872
01:01:37,982 --> 01:01:38,522
And you've lost them.

873
01:01:38,862 --> 01:01:40,342
Yeah, it's like, I'm sorry,

874
01:01:40,882 --> 01:01:43,022
are we not allowed to think anymore?

875
01:01:43,442 --> 01:01:44,462
I mean, can we just,

876
01:01:44,462 --> 01:01:46,282
well, who's this uninvited guest?

877
01:01:46,422 --> 01:01:51,822
you know, here, are we just going to turn over the whole of our brains and our thinking and

878
01:01:51,822 --> 01:01:56,662
thought processes, our relationships, the conversations to technology? I don't think

879
01:01:56,662 --> 01:02:03,142
this is good. At least we should at least be aware of what we're doing before we do that. So I've

880
01:02:03,142 --> 01:02:09,062
made a habit, and I have to say, I think this is essential for freedom. I've made a habit,

881
01:02:09,062 --> 01:02:15,862
a daily habit of putting my phone in the drawer, shutting down my computer, and I take a walk.

882
01:02:15,862 --> 01:02:19,542
and I listen to birds

883
01:02:19,542 --> 01:02:22,922
and I look around at trees

884
01:02:22,922 --> 01:02:25,002
and I look at the flow of water

885
01:02:25,002 --> 01:02:26,282
and I breathe fresh air

886
01:02:26,282 --> 01:02:28,442
and I try to empty my brain out.

887
01:02:28,642 --> 01:02:32,162
And this is not foo-foo meditation shit or whatever.

888
01:02:32,802 --> 01:02:33,742
It's a revolutionary act.

889
01:02:34,122 --> 01:02:36,962
Yeah, it's just a matter of kind of resetting yourself

890
01:02:36,962 --> 01:02:39,602
so that we start living in the real world again

891
01:02:39,602 --> 01:02:41,362
instead of the artificial world

892
01:02:41,362 --> 01:02:44,662
to be created for us by people we don't control.

893
01:02:44,662 --> 01:02:47,642
You know, I think this is really essential.

894
01:02:47,822 --> 01:02:55,562
And I think the book inspires you to this sort of these kinds of changes that everybody can make.

895
01:02:55,602 --> 01:02:56,902
It's not a self-help manual.

896
01:02:57,022 --> 01:03:02,962
It really is a reflection on fundamental human values that have been forgotten.

897
01:03:03,962 --> 01:03:05,622
And we need more to aspire to.

898
01:03:05,942 --> 01:03:07,722
And again, I don't want to, you know.

899
01:03:08,322 --> 01:03:13,662
And that's the chapter on pioneering is really important here, too, because you need to.

900
01:03:13,662 --> 01:03:15,702
We don't have lands to travel.

901
01:03:15,762 --> 01:03:20,622
My ancestors went on a stagecoach from Massachusetts down to Texas, you know, in 1830.

902
01:03:20,742 --> 01:03:21,502
Okay, I tell that story.

903
01:03:21,562 --> 01:03:22,182
It's very impressive.

904
01:03:23,022 --> 01:03:24,582
And we don't do that anymore.

905
01:03:24,582 --> 01:03:35,622
But we can treat our own intellectual lives and our personal relationships as an adventure, you know, as a pioneering adventure of discovery.

906
01:03:35,622 --> 01:03:43,602
and to be humble, to be truthful, to not be duplicitous or disingenuous,

907
01:03:44,162 --> 01:03:49,562
but have a genuine attitude of adventure and discovery and excitement about life.

908
01:03:49,622 --> 01:03:52,122
That's what we really need to reclaim.

909
01:03:52,722 --> 01:04:01,902
This culture of regret and complaint that we're invited to adopt as our mentality is not getting us anywhere.

910
01:04:01,902 --> 01:04:14,002
We need to start loving the world that we can control, become masters of our own domain ourselves, which starts with our homes and our families and our friendships and our own communities.

911
01:04:14,522 --> 01:04:20,262
Master that without any mediation, just us with individuals.

912
01:04:20,962 --> 01:04:29,922
And that's the beginning, I think, of outsmarting the technocrats and trying to steal our property, our lives, our liberty, our spirit.

913
01:04:31,902 --> 01:04:35,282
Perfect ending. Jeffrey, thank you so much for your time and insights today.

914
01:04:35,762 --> 01:04:40,842
I will look forward to sharing this wide, and we'll get out all the information about this and

915
01:04:40,842 --> 01:04:43,162
your latest and other books. Thank you so much.

916
01:04:43,422 --> 01:04:44,522
Right. My pleasure. Thank you.