1 00:00:01,199 --> 00:00:02,179 Fran, welcome. 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,700 Thank you, Sean. Appreciate you taking the time today. 3 00:00:06,799 --> 00:00:08,580 So we were chatting before 4 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:17,884 I hit record, and you are in the beautiful city, which I wish I could beautifully pronounce, so Buenos Aires, which I have been to as recently as last February. 5 00:00:18,984 --> 00:00:22,285 Gorgeous place, and maybe we'll talk more about how that informs 6 00:00:22,904 --> 00:00:23,645 your perspectives. 7 00:00:24,505 --> 00:00:27,564 But as I mentioned, I asked you on today because I think 8 00:00:28,039 --> 00:00:32,140 the issue of app stores and centralized control thereof is 9 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,260 a big, big, big topic. I was 10 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:46,895 doing a little bit of, research to remind myself when the first app store launched. I had convinced myself that maybe it was Microsoft or something else, but no. It was Apple in February. 11 00:00:46,895 --> 00:00:49,954 So we're we're coming up on seventeen years, 12 00:00:50,575 --> 00:00:54,495 of the Apple App Store and everything that has, you know, sort of offshoot or, 13 00:00:55,055 --> 00:00:56,754 offshot, I guess, from it. 14 00:00:57,135 --> 00:00:57,635 So 15 00:00:58,095 --> 00:01:05,440 let's start with a bit of a background. I know you are primarily or have been recently a mobile developer. I know you've got a lot of time, 16 00:01:06,380 --> 00:01:09,360 engineering and writing software. Tell us a bit about, 17 00:01:09,980 --> 00:01:12,160 the, the NIM that is Fran. 18 00:01:12,585 --> 00:01:13,085 The 19 00:01:13,545 --> 00:01:14,045 NIM. 20 00:01:15,625 --> 00:01:20,365 We're alive. Right? So, I mean, I'm not a NIM anymore. I guess I've talked myself enough. 21 00:01:20,744 --> 00:01:21,885 But Have you? Okay. 22 00:01:22,505 --> 00:01:24,025 Tell tells you what I know. I I 23 00:01:25,650 --> 00:01:28,390 Yeah. I have a lengthy experience with software. 24 00:01:29,170 --> 00:01:31,270 I did Java back in the day. 25 00:01:31,650 --> 00:01:38,995 Oh, okay. So gives off a little bit of my Yeah, man. That's some nice craps right there. Yeah. Nine is wise. Yeah. 2 thousands mostly, but, 26 00:01:39,455 --> 00:01:42,115 oh god. I'm so glad we passed that stage. 27 00:01:42,415 --> 00:01:48,675 Yeah. It was pretty terrible. But It's still out there running banks everywhere, I suppose. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 28 00:01:49,535 --> 00:01:51,180 But then I did a little bit of, 29 00:01:52,620 --> 00:01:56,480 back end work in Ruby on Rails, and that's front end as well. Like, it's, 30 00:01:57,740 --> 00:02:00,320 then onto, like, all sorts of JavaScript frameworks. 31 00:02:00,700 --> 00:02:01,600 And so 32 00:02:02,380 --> 00:02:05,280 I done a little bit of day of his work as well. So, you 33 00:02:06,315 --> 00:02:11,915 you know Nice. So I mean As people say, these days. Right? Absolutely. Which, as as all the the, 34 00:02:12,315 --> 00:02:21,440 the 10 x full stack engineers out there will appreciate. So, I mean, with that, and the reason I I wanted to to pull, you know, that out of you a little bit was 35 00:02:21,820 --> 00:02:23,520 to set the stage for 36 00:02:24,380 --> 00:02:27,680 why in the hell would you tackle something so audacious, 37 00:02:27,980 --> 00:02:29,360 and I'm being quite sincere, 38 00:02:29,900 --> 00:02:30,400 as 39 00:02:30,860 --> 00:02:31,920 a decentralized 40 00:02:32,220 --> 00:02:32,880 app storming. 41 00:02:33,340 --> 00:02:37,525 Let's start here. What's broken? What's wrong? What are the key challenges 42 00:02:38,305 --> 00:02:39,045 with the 43 00:02:39,825 --> 00:02:44,004 centralized app stores? You know, everybody knows either Apple or Google Play. 44 00:02:45,344 --> 00:02:48,620 And, you know, what what's wrong? And then 45 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,260 how fundamentally do those 46 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:52,700 challenges, 47 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:56,140 create a lesser 48 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:57,660 end user experience? 49 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,055 The first word that comes to mind is frustration, 50 00:03:02,534 --> 00:03:03,834 And that for me is a 51 00:03:04,295 --> 00:03:05,194 huge driver. 52 00:03:06,775 --> 00:03:13,435 You know, with it, with it's good and bad sides, right? The frustration itself is enough energy for me to like go and pursue something as big as this. 53 00:03:14,470 --> 00:03:15,130 But, obviously, 54 00:03:16,550 --> 00:03:18,410 this wouldn't have had occurred to me 55 00:03:19,350 --> 00:03:21,050 if, Nasr didn't exist 56 00:03:21,590 --> 00:03:22,090 because 57 00:03:24,470 --> 00:03:27,190 the solution I'm proposing to the centralized stores, 58 00:03:29,155 --> 00:03:35,415 is is based on a decentralized protocol. We can talk more about that later. But Sure. The the biggest problem here 59 00:03:36,595 --> 00:03:37,095 is 60 00:03:38,755 --> 00:03:41,495 that it's not bad per se to have a catalog 61 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:43,739 or a curation 62 00:03:45,159 --> 00:03:47,260 of whether you call with whether it's applications 63 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:48,620 or it's music 64 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:50,379 or whatever it may be. 65 00:03:51,239 --> 00:03:53,420 That's extremely useful, and I don't wanna, 66 00:03:55,959 --> 00:04:00,705 throw the baby out with the bath water in in in a sense that there is a lot of value 67 00:04:01,405 --> 00:04:05,825 with the current app stores or as most, people find applications today. 68 00:04:06,845 --> 00:04:07,345 So 69 00:04:08,845 --> 00:04:10,865 how can we improve that model? 70 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,620 And why I say improve is because I feel they're terribly broken. 71 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:28,155 In what ways? What what would you not to, you know, throw anybody into the bus, but let's throw somebody into the bus. Like, what's what's wrong? We're gonna throw this. Don't worry about that. Yeah. What's what's wrong what's wrong with them today as as they are? 72 00:04:29,335 --> 00:04:30,315 Right. So while the 73 00:04:31,895 --> 00:04:32,395 intention 74 00:04:33,014 --> 00:04:33,514 is 75 00:04:34,455 --> 00:04:37,755 to give use okay. Let's let's start by by saying that these are marketplaces 76 00:04:38,615 --> 00:04:42,530 where Certainly. Users and developers are are connecting. Right? So, 77 00:04:45,250 --> 00:04:47,830 on the one side, we have the the user, 78 00:04:48,849 --> 00:04:50,310 convenience and frustration. 79 00:04:51,009 --> 00:04:53,750 And on the other side, we have the developers convenience and frustration. 80 00:04:55,125 --> 00:04:55,625 So 81 00:04:56,405 --> 00:04:58,745 we can start by by users because 82 00:04:59,444 --> 00:05:02,185 most people, of course, do use these these systems. 83 00:05:04,004 --> 00:05:04,504 And, 84 00:05:05,284 --> 00:05:07,784 well, we're kind of familiar with, as you said, with 85 00:05:09,220 --> 00:05:11,639 Apple App Store, with the Google Play Store, 86 00:05:12,500 --> 00:05:14,280 and we can extend that to 87 00:05:14,660 --> 00:05:16,919 even package managers as we were talking 88 00:05:17,220 --> 00:05:17,960 about before. 89 00:05:19,860 --> 00:05:23,914 And to me, the biggest problem is that we cannot change the curator. We cannot change the catalog. Cannot change the curator. 90 00:05:24,534 --> 00:05:26,074 We cannot change the catalog. 91 00:05:27,014 --> 00:05:29,354 And this creates a lot of friction and 92 00:05:29,735 --> 00:05:30,235 resentment, 93 00:05:31,974 --> 00:05:33,594 from both sides, but particularly 94 00:05:33,974 --> 00:05:34,474 from 95 00:05:34,935 --> 00:05:35,995 developer side. 96 00:05:36,775 --> 00:05:37,275 Because 97 00:05:38,990 --> 00:05:40,210 in order to get, 98 00:05:41,070 --> 00:05:43,490 you know, the good stuff into these places, 99 00:05:44,990 --> 00:05:46,930 the the filters can 100 00:05:47,789 --> 00:05:49,970 be high, but they can also be 101 00:05:51,005 --> 00:05:51,505 random. 102 00:05:52,525 --> 00:05:53,905 At times, they can feel 103 00:05:54,605 --> 00:05:55,105 Capricious, 104 00:05:55,485 --> 00:05:56,785 arbitrary. Arbitrary. 105 00:05:57,325 --> 00:05:57,825 Yeah. 106 00:06:01,565 --> 00:06:03,520 So, you know, what if they could 107 00:06:04,220 --> 00:06:10,640 like, what what if could this become a market instead of, like, a one fixed place where, you know, if if one 108 00:06:11,020 --> 00:06:15,294 curator decides to have a very high standard or decides to go crazy, 109 00:06:15,675 --> 00:06:18,975 which we could debate what what's the case today, 110 00:06:21,355 --> 00:06:22,415 it would be pretty 111 00:06:22,875 --> 00:06:24,495 interesting to be able to change, 112 00:06:25,354 --> 00:06:26,574 you know, who does this, 113 00:06:27,354 --> 00:06:30,520 who who, essentially, who we trust to do this job. 114 00:06:31,140 --> 00:06:42,040 And to introduce, I presume, competition. And and and what that competition puts upon someone that might misbehave, might get power hungry. Exactly. So free markets. Right? Right. 115 00:06:42,740 --> 00:06:43,240 Then 116 00:06:43,755 --> 00:06:51,455 that that's the big picture because if we start going deeper into each one of the operating systems and platforms, we will find a lot of nuance. 117 00:06:52,475 --> 00:06:54,255 Apple does not behave the same, 118 00:06:55,835 --> 00:06:56,335 than, 119 00:06:57,379 --> 00:07:02,520 you know, the Android platform in general, but also within Android devices, the situation is a little bit different. 120 00:07:04,099 --> 00:07:06,759 Android is What would you say sorry, Frank. Go ahead. 121 00:07:07,379 --> 00:07:09,159 Android is much more open. 122 00:07:09,539 --> 00:07:11,985 Yes. I don't know what the situation with Windows 123 00:07:13,185 --> 00:07:20,965 is today. Nor do I. But in general, desktop seems to be a little bit more open. And I would say the the toughest one is 124 00:07:21,905 --> 00:07:22,405 iOS. 125 00:07:23,504 --> 00:07:26,224 Although macOS, and I mentioned to you, I've just switched off, 126 00:07:26,820 --> 00:07:29,240 last fall after twenty plus years of Mac devices. 127 00:07:29,620 --> 00:07:33,160 And, it was predicated largely by just this increasing 128 00:07:33,540 --> 00:07:34,919 you know, they're tightening the wrench. 129 00:07:35,540 --> 00:07:36,020 And, 130 00:07:36,419 --> 00:07:44,574 to me, what are dark patterns, you know, that dare you download from a small indie developer and try to install? They increasingly encourage you or 131 00:07:45,275 --> 00:07:46,895 stop you from doing it. So 132 00:07:47,595 --> 00:07:51,534 with that, I I I wonder, Fran, who who is doing 133 00:07:53,115 --> 00:07:58,130 the best job? You know, Is it is it an Android? Is it F Droid? Is it these alternative, 134 00:07:59,790 --> 00:08:02,450 Android app stores? Talk to us a bit about 135 00:08:04,190 --> 00:08:15,325 where that wrench hasn't been cranked down all the way, and there's a little bit of flexibility, a little bit of freedom. I know it largely doesn't exist on iOS, and we'll we'll come back to a major lawsuit that may change that. But 136 00:08:15,865 --> 00:08:17,085 where do you see 137 00:08:18,745 --> 00:08:19,245 the 138 00:08:20,585 --> 00:08:21,485 greatest flexibility 139 00:08:21,945 --> 00:08:22,445 today? 140 00:08:24,340 --> 00:08:27,480 Outside of of Zapstore, of course. What works well? 141 00:08:29,140 --> 00:08:31,880 Do you mean at which app store, in particular? 142 00:08:32,340 --> 00:08:39,575 Right. So I mean and I'm less familiar with Android. So, you know, if you look at F Droid or these others, which I, again, I'm only peripherally familiar with, 143 00:08:40,355 --> 00:08:47,895 are they working well enough? Have they also sort of succumb to Mhmm. The same pressures and and and control? 144 00:08:49,315 --> 00:08:55,360 But so F Droid is is an interesting case because that is an app store that works on Android. 145 00:08:55,740 --> 00:08:56,240 Mhmm. 146 00:08:57,820 --> 00:09:04,080 And they do support multiple catalogs. Right? So you you if you if you're not satisfied with the default 147 00:09:05,580 --> 00:09:11,964 F Droid catalog, you can add a different one. And one of the best known ones is, Ision Droid. 148 00:09:13,225 --> 00:09:15,644 And the thing with F Droid is that they 149 00:09:16,985 --> 00:09:17,485 normally 150 00:09:18,425 --> 00:09:20,685 built and signed packages themselves. 151 00:09:21,710 --> 00:09:24,610 So essentially, like, now you're just moving the trust 152 00:09:25,070 --> 00:09:28,610 to F Droid instead of, like, the developer. Right? Right. 153 00:09:29,870 --> 00:09:34,210 Unless it's a reproducible build, but, you know, that's, that's a minor case. 154 00:09:35,955 --> 00:09:38,135 And they have a quite a high standard 155 00:09:40,915 --> 00:09:42,215 in terms of free software 156 00:09:42,995 --> 00:09:43,975 because they require 157 00:09:44,915 --> 00:09:45,415 that, 158 00:09:46,275 --> 00:09:49,170 you know, the components used to build the the application 159 00:09:50,290 --> 00:09:52,870 have certain licenses and they're, like, very 160 00:09:54,610 --> 00:09:57,750 very, you know, I would say annoying with that with that kind of stuff. 161 00:09:58,450 --> 00:10:02,310 So that reduces the catalog, but it also has the downside they that they are building. 162 00:10:02,690 --> 00:10:05,305 So, sure, you can go and add, 163 00:10:05,785 --> 00:10:08,845 a different catalog, as I mentioned, Izzie Android, which 164 00:10:09,545 --> 00:10:10,045 is 165 00:10:10,985 --> 00:10:11,885 a kinda complimentary, 166 00:10:12,665 --> 00:10:13,165 set 167 00:10:13,865 --> 00:10:16,620 of apps that are not on F Droid, but, you know, now you can 168 00:10:17,100 --> 00:10:20,240 install this way. And most of what he builds is, like, 169 00:10:20,620 --> 00:10:25,360 apps that are open and have published source, source code on GitHub, for example. 170 00:10:27,020 --> 00:10:27,760 So that's, 171 00:10:28,540 --> 00:10:30,540 that kinda works, but there are a lot of, 172 00:10:31,565 --> 00:10:34,625 trust implications in in the middle. And 173 00:10:35,485 --> 00:10:36,625 the UX, 174 00:10:37,725 --> 00:10:40,704 in my opinion, is not as good as it could be. 175 00:10:41,084 --> 00:10:42,545 And then there's another contender, 176 00:10:43,740 --> 00:10:46,960 which is called Optanium. I don't know if you're familiar with it. I am. 177 00:10:48,380 --> 00:10:50,400 And the idea here is that you can go 178 00:10:50,860 --> 00:10:54,480 and fetch packages directly from where devs are publishing it. 179 00:10:55,980 --> 00:10:56,800 So, normally, 180 00:10:57,775 --> 00:10:58,275 if 181 00:10:59,535 --> 00:11:01,395 you have a look at GitHub releases, 182 00:11:02,895 --> 00:11:10,195 and you see that a lot of devs not only just publish the source code, but they also build their assets and publish them there. 183 00:11:10,709 --> 00:11:12,889 So there is a huge repository 184 00:11:13,829 --> 00:11:16,089 of, in the case of Android, of APK files, 185 00:11:16,870 --> 00:11:19,850 within GitHub or GitLab or Right. 186 00:11:20,550 --> 00:11:21,829 Is there and maybe there 187 00:11:22,709 --> 00:11:25,115 and there is, I think, a a broad audience, 188 00:11:25,735 --> 00:11:27,755 that that that will watch and listen 189 00:11:28,135 --> 00:11:30,555 from developers and Nostra users and 190 00:11:31,175 --> 00:11:32,715 those that are deep in the technology, 191 00:11:33,175 --> 00:11:34,475 to those that are not. 192 00:11:34,935 --> 00:11:36,920 Could you, for us, us, Fran, 193 00:11:37,300 --> 00:11:38,440 if you have a model, 194 00:11:39,540 --> 00:11:40,680 what are the major 195 00:11:43,060 --> 00:11:49,720 buckets of concern with regard to app stores? I mean, we we mentioned sliding trust from one point to the other. 196 00:11:50,435 --> 00:11:51,415 There's privacy, 197 00:11:52,195 --> 00:11:53,335 there's monetization. 198 00:11:53,875 --> 00:12:00,295 These are things that occur to me. You know, there's build pipelines if we wanna get into the weeds. Like, I know there are various Linux distributions 199 00:12:00,675 --> 00:12:01,175 whose 200 00:12:01,715 --> 00:12:06,050 primary funding challenge is can they put together the infrastructure 201 00:12:06,430 --> 00:12:09,470 to to run, you know, these these builds for the various, 202 00:12:10,190 --> 00:12:11,390 distros and and, 203 00:12:12,190 --> 00:12:15,810 and what have you. So do you have a sense of that? Like, kinda layout for us 204 00:12:16,270 --> 00:12:16,990 what are the, 205 00:12:18,325 --> 00:12:18,825 components 206 00:12:19,725 --> 00:12:24,904 Mhmm. And and attributes maybe, of an App Store experience that you think about? 207 00:12:27,524 --> 00:12:29,144 An App Store essentially provides 208 00:12:30,725 --> 00:12:31,225 discovery. 209 00:12:33,150 --> 00:12:35,410 Right? So users go there to find stuff 210 00:12:36,030 --> 00:12:37,170 and they go there, 211 00:12:38,750 --> 00:12:40,530 to pay for stuff. So there's monetization. 212 00:12:43,310 --> 00:12:45,490 There's the privacy aspect as you mentioned. 213 00:12:48,435 --> 00:12:49,175 And there's 214 00:12:51,555 --> 00:12:57,975 security, of course. Mhmm. So we have all all all these these these components that kinda have to work well together. 215 00:12:59,580 --> 00:13:05,600 And And and that I assume is I mean, that's a significant even in I'm sure we could we could enumerate others, but those alone 216 00:13:06,060 --> 00:13:09,200 are a set of trade offs and a set of incentives 217 00:13:09,660 --> 00:13:13,280 Mhmm. That I I assume are hard to to challenging to align. 218 00:13:14,460 --> 00:13:14,805 Yeah. 219 00:13:15,765 --> 00:13:17,785 So, for example, when you 220 00:13:18,325 --> 00:13:19,285 open a typical, 221 00:13:21,205 --> 00:13:22,745 app store on an iPhone 222 00:13:24,005 --> 00:13:25,145 or Google Play, 223 00:13:26,245 --> 00:13:27,545 even though these 224 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:28,500 corporations 225 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:36,259 amass a huge amount of data from a lot of people and and yourself because you're typically signed in, 226 00:13:36,639 --> 00:13:41,655 and they know exactly what you download, when you download, maybe which apps you use at any given time, like, 227 00:13:42,055 --> 00:13:44,555 the privacy breaches are are kind of crazy. 228 00:13:45,095 --> 00:13:45,595 Absolutely. 229 00:13:47,415 --> 00:13:49,195 Despite all that, they 230 00:13:51,015 --> 00:13:51,515 still 231 00:13:51,895 --> 00:13:53,835 don't show great recommendations. 232 00:13:54,855 --> 00:14:05,300 I mean, I would expect with all with all that data, when you open the front page of these apps, you get like, oh, well, these apps, like, are are great because they reflect my taste, all my friends. 233 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,940 And none of that is happening. They're just trying to shove down everyone, 234 00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:16,335 all sorts of, like, games. I don't know know why I get a lot of game recommendations when I don't play any games, 235 00:14:18,075 --> 00:14:20,335 at least not on my phone. So it's it's 236 00:14:21,115 --> 00:14:25,215 it's quite surprising. Right? What's the whole And that's an interesting point. I mean, if I think about 237 00:14:26,315 --> 00:14:27,615 what I would see in 238 00:14:28,130 --> 00:14:32,630 sticking just, for example, within Apple, I'm a I'm an Apple Music user or if it's Spotify, 239 00:14:33,570 --> 00:14:34,630 there is an incentive 240 00:14:35,490 --> 00:14:39,670 for me to sustain that subscription for them to give me great recommendations. 241 00:14:40,050 --> 00:14:51,585 But Mhmm. You you know, to your point, and it perhaps hadn't really occurred to me, those incentives are not the same in an app store. It is, can I just get more apps on presumably, it's can I get more apps on the user's device, 242 00:14:52,285 --> 00:14:58,130 and can I therefore get a bigger cut of the ad revenue that is inevitably, you know, pushed in front of them? 243 00:14:58,750 --> 00:15:02,130 Or for those who do buy apps, of course, it's that 30% 244 00:15:02,270 --> 00:15:04,610 vig or whatever the cut is. Mhmm. 245 00:15:05,630 --> 00:15:07,890 So with all of that and all of those complexities, 246 00:15:11,505 --> 00:15:15,525 why go after this problem? You know? What what drove you to create Zapstore? 247 00:15:17,345 --> 00:15:18,805 What created that itch? 248 00:15:19,185 --> 00:15:19,925 And secondarily, 249 00:15:20,465 --> 00:15:23,730 I I would like to to know, and I don't wanna assume, but 250 00:15:24,270 --> 00:15:24,770 did 251 00:15:25,550 --> 00:15:31,010 did being Argentine did some of the history that you've experienced in the country I mean, are there are there sort of cultural, 252 00:15:31,470 --> 00:15:31,970 geographic, 253 00:15:32,910 --> 00:15:33,410 geopolitical 254 00:15:34,190 --> 00:15:37,605 influences? Or was it, hey. This is an interesting problem. I I'm gonna go solve it. 255 00:15:39,445 --> 00:15:45,464 We could talk a lot about Argentina, but I feel that this is a completely personal problem, you know, it's just personal frustration 256 00:15:46,245 --> 00:15:47,785 and also being a 257 00:15:48,165 --> 00:15:50,185 software developer that basically 258 00:15:50,964 --> 00:15:54,000 trying to verify software through through BGP. 259 00:15:56,380 --> 00:16:01,600 I just, you know, just so bad, like, in terms of user experience that I was like, 260 00:16:02,060 --> 00:16:04,720 I wanna get this right. Like, I wanna do this, 261 00:16:05,260 --> 00:16:06,000 but I'm 262 00:16:06,300 --> 00:16:07,520 I'm putting off sometimes 263 00:16:07,964 --> 00:16:09,985 installing an app because I know I have to go 264 00:16:10,605 --> 00:16:17,904 and find out, like, the fingerprint of a certain key and match it and check this and, like, oh, and it's like when I go to download certain software, 265 00:16:19,245 --> 00:16:26,930 you know, it's not for everything, but some packages require you know, it's it's better if you verify that it it is authentic and came from the developer. 266 00:16:27,389 --> 00:16:34,050 Right. Anything touching Bitcoin, for example, that's that's that's money or for A Bitcoin wallet will be a great example. So 267 00:16:35,145 --> 00:16:35,885 it's like 268 00:16:36,745 --> 00:16:38,925 that that, you know, that sigh. I gotta 269 00:16:39,785 --> 00:16:44,185 just check this and even then it just feels kinda random because some developers are, 270 00:16:45,225 --> 00:16:46,845 are basically sharing their 271 00:16:48,080 --> 00:17:03,060 their fingerprints just like to their release. So it's like, this sounds kinda like security theater because if you if your server was compromised, like, you know, whatever It's trivial. Besides the file, it's it's also gonna be changed. So, like, how do we solve all this? Like okay. Back to your 272 00:17:03,415 --> 00:17:05,115 question for Argentina, like, 273 00:17:05,815 --> 00:17:08,555 I don't see any any influence there. 274 00:17:09,015 --> 00:17:09,835 Yeah. Fair. 275 00:17:10,695 --> 00:17:14,635 Other other than perhaps, who knows how the mind works? But 276 00:17:15,095 --> 00:17:15,735 having some 277 00:17:16,615 --> 00:17:18,389 I think this is this is kind of, 278 00:17:19,190 --> 00:17:20,169 general here. 279 00:17:21,669 --> 00:17:22,889 Distrust for authority. 280 00:17:24,549 --> 00:17:32,070 I didn't wanna put the words in your mouth, but I I might have drawn, you know, that inference. Yeah. I might be a bit of an extreme, but, I think, 281 00:17:33,325 --> 00:17:34,525 you know, in general, when 282 00:17:35,165 --> 00:17:35,905 if you just 283 00:17:36,285 --> 00:17:37,585 talk bad about authority 284 00:17:37,965 --> 00:17:39,665 in just any social circles, 285 00:17:40,125 --> 00:17:46,590 you will not get, like, you know, weird glances that people normally agree. It's like, yeah, I'm doing shit. You know? So, 286 00:17:48,730 --> 00:17:52,350 I guess that could be part of it, but it's it's possibly 287 00:17:54,570 --> 00:17:55,950 something in my upbringing. 288 00:17:56,570 --> 00:17:59,230 Rep rebels rarely come from comfortable circumstances. 289 00:18:00,455 --> 00:18:03,355 How the plans were aligned when I was born? Who knows? 290 00:18:03,735 --> 00:18:17,750 Well, for the moon, what phase was the moon in? Yeah. Yeah. And then like I said, I didn't wanna I didn't wanna push you into, you know, constructing, you know, some sort of backstory. But but I mean, as I say, I think it's an interesting problem. It's a it's a meaty problem to solve and 291 00:18:18,130 --> 00:18:20,070 and interesting to know that it was 292 00:18:20,850 --> 00:18:26,470 in some ways as simple, but also as significant as I just don't wanna deal with, you know, validating, 293 00:18:27,810 --> 00:18:41,375 signatures on on on code or binaries, which again, to those listening who are not developers, that that may mean absolutely nothing. But but I think we'll we'll come to how that builds up to a to a great end user experience. 294 00:18:42,475 --> 00:18:43,935 We'll we'll so from there, 295 00:18:45,419 --> 00:18:48,159 pitch us, if you will, you know, Fran on on Zapstore. 296 00:18:48,539 --> 00:18:54,080 As it is today, we'll talk more about the future, but what's the solution it provides and what are the trade offs 297 00:18:54,380 --> 00:18:56,960 that using it today would would entail? 298 00:18:59,245 --> 00:19:00,544 I'm gonna give a little 299 00:19:01,485 --> 00:19:02,385 intro on 300 00:19:02,845 --> 00:19:04,705 how that frustration that I mentioned, 301 00:19:05,005 --> 00:19:07,825 and specifically, I was talking about security on verifying 302 00:19:09,245 --> 00:19:12,000 packages and download it from from the web, 303 00:19:12,539 --> 00:19:20,480 that most most users don't, you know, don't do, because they just either just download and install or Right. Pull from an app store. 304 00:19:22,460 --> 00:19:27,165 I would say that those frustrations, if I compare the amount of time I put into into into that, 305 00:19:29,145 --> 00:19:30,205 is just like 306 00:19:31,065 --> 00:19:35,885 minimal compared to the amount of effort I put to fix that. Right? So Right. It's kind of crazy. 307 00:19:36,825 --> 00:19:38,365 At the time, I was 308 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:40,340 I discovered Nasr 309 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:42,560 maybe in '2 310 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:44,820 end of '20 '2, 311 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:46,500 early twenty three. 312 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:48,340 And 313 00:19:51,635 --> 00:19:55,015 I asked myself, like, if we can verify notes from 314 00:19:55,395 --> 00:19:57,335 strangers because Nasr essentially 315 00:19:57,795 --> 00:19:58,295 is 316 00:19:58,595 --> 00:20:01,655 a decentralized protocols that allow allow us to 317 00:20:02,835 --> 00:20:05,495 receive information and verify that 318 00:20:05,795 --> 00:20:07,175 it it's it was 319 00:20:07,530 --> 00:20:09,630 cryptographic signed by the person who says 320 00:20:10,170 --> 00:20:11,470 it was. So 321 00:20:12,330 --> 00:20:16,910 I just saw a parallel in in in in the way that we do software verification. 322 00:20:18,330 --> 00:20:19,950 And I said, like, what are these 323 00:20:20,505 --> 00:20:22,505 small because there there there are some, 324 00:20:23,305 --> 00:20:25,885 tiny files when you verify stuff with BGP 325 00:20:26,185 --> 00:20:27,245 or when you download 326 00:20:27,865 --> 00:20:30,285 that different packages that is called SHA 327 00:20:31,705 --> 00:20:32,205 sums 328 00:20:33,225 --> 00:20:35,085 Mhmm. Which are like the 329 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:37,420 digests of, 330 00:20:38,360 --> 00:20:45,500 I'm getting too technical here perhaps, but No. No. And I think and I mean, I would just jump in and say that for those again who who aren't necessarily that deep, 331 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,100 this is and you'll you'll correct me, please, Fran. 332 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:50,140 This is 333 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,065 to verify, to validate 334 00:20:53,005 --> 00:20:54,385 that the author creator, 335 00:20:55,325 --> 00:20:55,825 developer 336 00:20:56,285 --> 00:21:00,945 of a given either binary, a piece of software that will run on your machine, 337 00:21:01,725 --> 00:21:02,225 or 338 00:21:03,165 --> 00:21:05,105 the source code that one could build 339 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,660 into a binary to run on that machine 340 00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:13,580 is from them. So it is simply to say that Fran wrote this code. Fran published this this application, 341 00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:15,820 and we can know for a fact 342 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:17,660 by going elsewhere 343 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:19,020 and verifying 344 00:21:19,755 --> 00:21:20,975 his digital signature. 345 00:21:22,795 --> 00:21:25,615 Exactly. So it's to prevent 346 00:21:26,155 --> 00:21:33,299 that any party in the middle has manipulated, changed, you know, what you're supposed to know. Right? And if you look at Nostr, 347 00:21:33,759 --> 00:21:36,580 Nostr was doing exactly that but for tweets. 348 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:37,940 Right. 349 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:38,740 Attribution. 350 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:42,179 So when I saw that little file, I was like, wait a second, like, 351 00:21:42,559 --> 00:21:44,019 this could be built on Nostr. 352 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:54,165 At first I thought, like, we could put this little file on Master, but then it's like, oh, maybe we could build an event. And then I found that there were, like, events that were already, 353 00:21:54,545 --> 00:21:55,445 designed around, 354 00:21:56,305 --> 00:21:57,525 files and file hashes. 355 00:21:59,345 --> 00:22:00,630 So then I just started, like, 356 00:22:03,990 --> 00:22:09,850 imagining something something great. And then as I mentioned before, there are, like, quite a few pieces here. 357 00:22:10,790 --> 00:22:11,530 We have, 358 00:22:12,390 --> 00:22:13,450 the first one that 359 00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:20,085 occurred to me was security. Like, how can we verify the the software? But then it's like, wait. But Nostra 360 00:22:20,465 --> 00:22:21,845 is a is a social network. 361 00:22:22,784 --> 00:22:23,284 So 362 00:22:23,664 --> 00:22:24,164 discovery 363 00:22:25,024 --> 00:22:25,764 is there. 364 00:22:26,384 --> 00:22:29,605 Like, if we can use our social connections to 365 00:22:30,144 --> 00:22:31,820 see, you know, what apps they're 366 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:33,899 using, what do they recommend. Like, 367 00:22:34,519 --> 00:22:35,659 we could add, like, 368 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:38,299 a a real social layer 369 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:39,899 on top 370 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:41,659 of discovering apps. 371 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:44,460 And then the monetization 372 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:45,260 part 373 00:22:46,075 --> 00:22:48,015 is that, wait a second, but we have Zaps. 374 00:22:49,515 --> 00:22:54,155 So everything kind of started falling into place. And I was just about because I was part of the, 375 00:22:54,955 --> 00:22:57,695 the first, sovereign engineering cohort in Madera. 376 00:22:58,075 --> 00:22:58,575 Nice. 377 00:22:59,900 --> 00:23:00,799 Some of you may 378 00:23:01,179 --> 00:23:01,740 know. And, 379 00:23:02,539 --> 00:23:03,200 that was 380 00:23:03,500 --> 00:23:04,400 a few months 381 00:23:05,100 --> 00:23:06,080 maybe or 382 00:23:07,659 --> 00:23:09,520 a month or two before going there. 383 00:23:10,059 --> 00:23:12,559 And so all I had was an idea, 384 00:23:13,295 --> 00:23:14,355 and a blog post, 385 00:23:14,655 --> 00:23:17,075 a long one, where I talk about all these topics. 386 00:23:17,695 --> 00:23:27,890 And at the time, I really didn't have any solution, but I was just like I went into the rabbit hole of app stores and how they work and package managers and what do they do and what are the difference is and all that. 387 00:23:28,910 --> 00:23:30,610 So before jumping to a solution, 388 00:23:31,550 --> 00:23:32,370 I asked myself, 389 00:23:33,150 --> 00:23:37,730 first of all, is this a problem big enough? Is it a real problem? Is the problem big big enough? 390 00:23:38,750 --> 00:23:41,055 And can actually Nasser fix app distribution. 391 00:23:42,715 --> 00:23:47,935 And after that and talking it through with all of the legends that were there, in Madera, 392 00:23:49,995 --> 00:23:54,015 I found that it it it sounded great, you know, and I had a lot of encouragement. 393 00:23:54,769 --> 00:23:56,549 So I just started building there. 394 00:23:57,730 --> 00:24:02,870 And you launched in March of this year? Sorry. Fran. I launched I launched in in May 395 00:24:03,970 --> 00:24:08,870 of last year. Like, one year ago exactly. Oh, was it okay? Okay. Was there a was it a point I mean, I know you're still That was 396 00:24:09,735 --> 00:24:10,135 still 397 00:24:10,535 --> 00:24:11,355 That was a 398 00:24:11,815 --> 00:24:12,475 that was, 399 00:24:13,415 --> 00:24:14,554 that was a first release 400 00:24:15,335 --> 00:24:19,515 of the Android app because I see. Okay. The App Store is is primarily, 401 00:24:20,775 --> 00:24:22,410 an App Store for Android 402 00:24:22,950 --> 00:24:23,450 so 403 00:24:23,830 --> 00:24:29,450 far. And maybe it was a CLI that And then later on later on, I I built a CLI because 404 00:24:30,230 --> 00:24:30,730 first, 405 00:24:31,750 --> 00:24:33,130 the idea of providing 406 00:24:33,750 --> 00:24:38,875 a CLI for developers to actually publish their applications. I'm gonna get to that part now. Sure. 407 00:24:40,615 --> 00:24:44,235 And then when I was building that, it's like, wait a second. But I can also, you know, 408 00:24:44,934 --> 00:24:46,955 not only I could do, like, Zaps for publish 409 00:24:47,815 --> 00:24:48,315 app, 410 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:49,980 I can also 411 00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:55,980 do zaps for install and install these apps if, you know, why why not do a package manager? So that has 412 00:24:56,360 --> 00:25:00,220 been a little bit, I don't know, abandoned, but, like, not not in the, 413 00:25:01,355 --> 00:25:02,335 you know, the, 414 00:25:03,115 --> 00:25:04,815 as as most important project. 415 00:25:05,995 --> 00:25:10,655 And that that has been, like, most people, when when they hear about Zapstore, they think about the Android 416 00:25:10,955 --> 00:25:13,055 app store, and that's the the primary focus. 417 00:25:15,169 --> 00:25:17,830 But, yeah, I've been working on the CLI, 418 00:25:18,610 --> 00:25:19,110 stuff 419 00:25:20,210 --> 00:25:23,830 a lot lately, and I'm gonna have a a read very soon. 420 00:25:24,289 --> 00:25:27,429 Nice. And that is, again, just to sort of do a little bit of translation. 421 00:25:27,970 --> 00:25:33,915 For those on their laptop, their desktop, the ability to enjoy the same sort of discovery, security, 422 00:25:34,455 --> 00:25:34,955 privacy, 423 00:25:36,135 --> 00:25:36,955 in installing 424 00:25:37,655 --> 00:25:38,715 desktop applications 425 00:25:39,095 --> 00:25:41,195 in, in addition to mobile. Correct? 426 00:25:43,815 --> 00:25:44,635 Yeah. That's 427 00:25:45,059 --> 00:25:50,679 that's the plan. That's the plan for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Which I mean, there's a lot a lot to to build there. I know. 428 00:25:51,460 --> 00:25:56,100 Yeah. Yeah. And and and with what you know, again, it's early still, but, 429 00:25:59,380 --> 00:26:02,715 what does to the degree that you can paint a picture, someone 430 00:26:03,575 --> 00:26:05,434 running an Android device today, 431 00:26:05,735 --> 00:26:09,115 what can they do with Zapstore? What's that experience like? 432 00:26:14,215 --> 00:26:16,250 Since I as I said before, 433 00:26:16,870 --> 00:26:18,090 an app store is a marketplace, 434 00:26:19,030 --> 00:26:20,490 and that is 435 00:26:20,870 --> 00:26:24,010 when you when you start building something that can 436 00:26:24,710 --> 00:26:29,850 be a big problem. Because starting a map marketplace from scratch is very hard 437 00:26:30,184 --> 00:26:33,165 because now you have all these these two sides of it. 438 00:26:34,025 --> 00:26:34,525 So 439 00:26:36,265 --> 00:26:42,925 it's like, okay. Cool. I have some people that are interested in publishing and some people that are interested in using it, but it's like chicken and egg problem 440 00:26:43,549 --> 00:26:46,210 where no one will really come with the other. It's not there. 441 00:26:48,030 --> 00:26:49,630 So what I decided to do is, 442 00:26:51,230 --> 00:26:55,490 is just start myself a catalog where I curated apps that are 443 00:26:55,790 --> 00:26:56,885 of just just random 444 00:26:57,265 --> 00:27:03,745 developers that are done. Maybe most of them are not even aware of Nostra or Bitcoin, but it's apps that a lot of, 445 00:27:04,465 --> 00:27:06,565 my friends, let's say, would use. 446 00:27:07,025 --> 00:27:12,950 So I started building this catalog alongside the app Because the app by itself won't do much if there's no content. 447 00:27:13,410 --> 00:27:16,070 Sure. So I started building this this big catalog. 448 00:27:16,530 --> 00:27:19,590 I mean big, no. Not a big, but small catalog, 449 00:27:20,530 --> 00:27:22,005 but to get the ball rolling. 450 00:27:22,965 --> 00:27:24,825 And the idea there is that 451 00:27:25,445 --> 00:27:31,385 by having this app select, then people will use it. And and I wanted to push, as I mentioned before, like publishing. 452 00:27:33,685 --> 00:27:34,825 I wanted to push 453 00:27:35,525 --> 00:27:39,080 developers on Nostril, like, mobile developers specifically on Nostr 454 00:27:40,420 --> 00:27:41,000 to basically 455 00:27:41,300 --> 00:27:42,280 sign events 456 00:27:43,380 --> 00:27:44,280 that tied to their 457 00:27:44,740 --> 00:27:47,160 apps. So what's really cool is in that catalog, 458 00:27:47,540 --> 00:27:49,300 for example, if you download an app, 459 00:27:50,225 --> 00:27:51,605 like Amethyst, for example, 460 00:27:52,145 --> 00:27:53,045 or Amber, 461 00:27:54,305 --> 00:27:55,205 or Zeus, 462 00:27:55,665 --> 00:27:56,885 there's a bunch of them, 463 00:27:57,505 --> 00:27:59,205 they are signed by the developers. 464 00:28:00,465 --> 00:28:02,805 So when you, as a as an end user, 465 00:28:03,585 --> 00:28:04,085 are 466 00:28:04,385 --> 00:28:06,049 downloading one of these apps, 467 00:28:07,070 --> 00:28:18,555 you can see that they have been signed. They have a Noster event signed by by the developers. So you're certain that, you know, back to the thing about that there's no changes in the middle, like you can be certain that it's 468 00:28:20,555 --> 00:28:24,655 from them. And sure, you can trust, you know, a curator, 469 00:28:25,035 --> 00:28:25,535 someone 470 00:28:25,915 --> 00:28:29,695 who who who collects apps and puts filters and verifies stuff. 471 00:28:30,155 --> 00:28:35,309 Sure. That's great. But that's even going a step further and saying, not only I 472 00:28:35,610 --> 00:28:38,830 you know, this app is of good quality because it's on my catalog, but also, 473 00:28:39,530 --> 00:28:41,390 I was not able to change it. 474 00:28:42,409 --> 00:28:43,549 I am not able to, 475 00:28:47,049 --> 00:28:49,465 I can't modify that sign event. It's immutable. 476 00:28:49,845 --> 00:28:52,265 Exactly. Exactly. I could censor, though, 477 00:28:52,965 --> 00:28:53,465 by 478 00:28:54,805 --> 00:28:56,265 not publishing that event. 479 00:28:57,925 --> 00:29:01,065 Let's say that the curation if for people who are familiar with Nasr, 480 00:29:01,445 --> 00:29:02,825 Nasr works with relays. 481 00:29:03,445 --> 00:29:10,010 And so we use a ton of these relays, you know, in order not to be censored. And in Zapr, the the the idea is the same. 482 00:29:10,790 --> 00:29:14,809 The place where these signed applications live is in our relay. 483 00:29:15,510 --> 00:29:16,490 And right now, 484 00:29:17,155 --> 00:29:20,995 we have one hardcoded relay in the application, so you cannot change it. 485 00:29:22,835 --> 00:29:30,135 But that's not the idea. I would, you know, ability would be to just as any other lost client, you can just change your 486 00:29:30,769 --> 00:29:31,669 manage your relays. 487 00:29:34,049 --> 00:29:37,669 And that's great because now you can have competition. Now is the free market 488 00:29:39,250 --> 00:29:43,509 of catalogs I was talking about. Now, all of a sudden, if I am not behaving 489 00:29:44,049 --> 00:29:44,549 or 490 00:29:44,945 --> 00:29:46,565 you know, maybe I'm too lenient 491 00:29:47,025 --> 00:29:50,565 and I just start having garbage in my Right. Store, 492 00:29:51,025 --> 00:29:55,285 all of a sudden, you can just remove that relay and add another one. 493 00:29:55,905 --> 00:29:57,960 And if we zoom out, Fran, I had, 494 00:29:58,440 --> 00:29:59,899 I published my 495 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:05,740 conversation with David Strayhorn last week, who you may know goes by Strathat on working 496 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,220 on web of trust. And so 497 00:30:08,919 --> 00:30:11,340 could you talk to us a bit about how web of trust, 498 00:30:11,914 --> 00:30:15,215 whether you choose to use that term or not, sort of layers in and reputation, 499 00:30:16,554 --> 00:30:19,615 gets sort of bubbled up or exposed so that as you say, 500 00:30:20,554 --> 00:30:21,294 I cannot, 501 00:30:22,155 --> 00:30:23,215 with certainty, 502 00:30:23,515 --> 00:30:24,015 know 503 00:30:24,715 --> 00:30:25,215 that, 504 00:30:25,660 --> 00:30:37,200 you know, Fran's not going to to publish a binary that's malicious, but I do know your reputation is at risk if you do. And so assuming you value it and assuming others have chosen to trust you, 505 00:30:37,660 --> 00:30:39,360 by way of this social layer, 506 00:30:39,740 --> 00:30:41,025 I can have a 507 00:30:41,905 --> 00:30:44,885 higher confidence that the application I install 508 00:30:45,425 --> 00:30:45,925 is, 509 00:30:46,625 --> 00:30:53,045 you know, is legit, not gonna do any damage. Talk talk to me a bit about about how that reputation web of trust layers in. 510 00:30:54,830 --> 00:30:55,870 I like the words, 511 00:30:56,990 --> 00:30:58,530 how do you say, how did you say, 512 00:30:59,630 --> 00:31:03,490 high confidence or improving confidence because it's all this 513 00:31:04,030 --> 00:31:04,930 higher confidence. 514 00:31:05,630 --> 00:31:06,130 We 515 00:31:06,830 --> 00:31:13,985 strive to get as as much confidence as we can. You know, these things are definitely not perfect and I will set an example now of that. 516 00:31:15,725 --> 00:31:17,024 But it's maximizing 517 00:31:17,404 --> 00:31:19,505 confidence and maximizing usability. 518 00:31:20,125 --> 00:31:22,304 Right. It's kind of the the goal here. 519 00:31:22,684 --> 00:31:23,280 So one of 520 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:26,900 the ways in in in in which, you 521 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:33,220 know, let's say downloading an app from from a given user that's signed with their nostrils keys 522 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:35,140 is that 523 00:31:35,995 --> 00:31:37,534 this user could be an imposter, 524 00:31:38,075 --> 00:31:38,975 an impersonator. 525 00:31:41,995 --> 00:31:43,534 So let's say that 526 00:31:44,475 --> 00:31:44,975 Vitor, 527 00:31:45,595 --> 00:31:46,815 the author of Amethyst, 528 00:31:47,674 --> 00:31:50,130 all of a sudden has a new, you know, a double, 529 00:31:50,770 --> 00:31:53,590 an impersonator or not, which he probably has. 530 00:31:54,530 --> 00:31:58,390 How do we tell who's the good reader and who's the bad reader? 531 00:32:02,450 --> 00:32:03,465 And the conversation 532 00:32:04,165 --> 00:32:07,865 started through other, you know, for other reasons before, 533 00:32:09,045 --> 00:32:10,825 talking about software in Nostr, 534 00:32:11,285 --> 00:32:12,505 about webs of trust. 535 00:32:13,365 --> 00:32:17,145 And that was another of the components that I was thinking back in my era about 536 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:18,380 where, 537 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,360 yes, we we have this problem with content like, 538 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,700 articles or tweets and so on, but, you know, for software, it's even more important. 539 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:33,115 So, you know, web of trust, like, curation of web of trust needs to be central here 540 00:32:34,054 --> 00:32:35,914 because you cannot imagine you're 541 00:32:36,695 --> 00:32:39,195 installing Bitcoin core from, you know, 542 00:32:39,575 --> 00:32:43,914 from the core devs and which actually is impersonator, you know, so that, that will be, 543 00:32:44,615 --> 00:32:45,434 or wallet. 544 00:32:45,910 --> 00:32:47,690 Catastrophic. That will be catastrophic. 545 00:32:48,150 --> 00:32:54,490 For others, maybe not as much, but you know, it's up to, it's up to you to, you know, assess your 546 00:32:54,950 --> 00:32:57,765 trust model. And this is, this is something we constantly do as humans in all situations. So we really have that 547 00:33:05,765 --> 00:33:17,200 markers, you know. We do even that when you we go on the street, for example, we leave a laundry to wash, you know. It's like, well, you know, this store kinda looks kind of okay. A friend told me about it, 548 00:33:18,060 --> 00:33:28,875 that he used it once. You know, it's not like total trust, but it's like, yeah. Well, it kinda makes sense. I don't think they will steal my clothes. If they did steal my clothes, I don't know. Maybe it's like hundreds or thousands of dollars. Who knows? Right? 549 00:33:30,075 --> 00:33:31,855 But we we constantly do that. 550 00:33:32,235 --> 00:33:38,255 And I think and I think it's worth it's great that you point that out. And and one thing I I think is important to emphasize is 551 00:33:39,035 --> 00:33:44,950 the inherent trade off in moving from the appearance of safety with a centralized entity 552 00:33:45,570 --> 00:33:46,070 to 553 00:33:47,250 --> 00:33:48,070 the reality 554 00:33:49,250 --> 00:33:50,390 of a decentralized 555 00:33:50,850 --> 00:33:51,350 approach 556 00:33:51,810 --> 00:33:56,390 is that nothing is perfect. Nothing is a % safe. Nothing is a % secure. 557 00:33:56,855 --> 00:34:01,035 And so I think for those who do wish to make this move 558 00:34:01,815 --> 00:34:02,315 to 559 00:34:02,695 --> 00:34:04,715 more self sovereignty, more independence, 560 00:34:05,095 --> 00:34:05,835 more decentralization, 561 00:34:06,535 --> 00:34:08,715 you know, choose your choose your terms, 562 00:34:09,335 --> 00:34:10,235 it is about, 563 00:34:11,335 --> 00:34:14,030 frankly, growing up and and realizing 564 00:34:14,490 --> 00:34:14,990 that 565 00:34:16,490 --> 00:34:17,790 there is risk everywhere. 566 00:34:18,330 --> 00:34:25,070 And in trusting Apple and trusting Google, you are not getting rid of risk. You are just changing the risk profile 567 00:34:25,450 --> 00:34:28,030 and, the threat model as you say. So, 568 00:34:28,605 --> 00:34:32,305 sorry, sorry for the aside and the commercial, but I think that's really important, 569 00:34:32,685 --> 00:34:33,905 you know, that it isn't 570 00:34:34,605 --> 00:34:38,145 the wild west just because you're not trusting Google and and Apple. 571 00:34:38,685 --> 00:34:41,265 It may in fact in many cases be more trustworthy. 572 00:34:42,579 --> 00:34:43,720 I completely agree. 573 00:34:44,260 --> 00:34:47,880 Completely agree. But we need to again, we need to take the good parts 574 00:34:48,180 --> 00:34:50,119 that they they they got right. 575 00:34:50,820 --> 00:34:54,359 How can we improve the model? Like, just not throw it away. Absolutely. 576 00:34:55,140 --> 00:34:56,900 What what do you think and so how how 577 00:34:57,675 --> 00:35:01,295 which of those good parts have informed your design so far? 578 00:35:05,675 --> 00:35:07,215 The good parts is that 579 00:35:08,315 --> 00:35:12,510 well, they have created these these catalogs. Right? I think before, 580 00:35:13,130 --> 00:35:14,430 well, software distribution 581 00:35:14,890 --> 00:35:15,390 was 582 00:35:18,170 --> 00:35:20,510 it was different before. Right? Like, you 583 00:35:21,450 --> 00:35:27,925 basically just purchase software either on a on a CD ROM or you download it from the web. Right. 584 00:35:29,025 --> 00:35:32,965 I don't recall there was, like, a central place to to get this stuff, 585 00:35:33,905 --> 00:35:35,605 and you trust, like, big brands. 586 00:35:36,945 --> 00:35:43,420 If it shows in the in the shrink-wrap box on the shiny disc, you thought it was legit. Yeah. There was also, like, a big, 587 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,620 well, there were repositories actually, like, 588 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:52,460 how is it called? Like, two cows or Oh, yeah. Wow. Shareware. The whole Shareware. 589 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:53,714 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 590 00:35:54,415 --> 00:35:59,474 That's going on. You you just like download stuff from there and, you know, double click install. Absolutely. 591 00:35:59,855 --> 00:36:00,915 Absolutely. Yellow. 592 00:36:02,734 --> 00:36:07,315 Well, and our lives weren't on these devices. Right? So there wasn't I would I would argue 593 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:08,400 that, 594 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:09,619 you know, 595 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:14,980 we didn't have as much at risk in terms of personal data loss and certainly not our money. 596 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,455 Yeah. For sure. Like, the the risk the risk, these days is much higher. 597 00:36:19,855 --> 00:36:20,675 I think, because, 598 00:36:21,455 --> 00:36:26,275 of privacy. Because now, these devices, like, have way more power to, like, leak 599 00:36:26,655 --> 00:36:28,915 private information than than before, probably, 600 00:36:30,255 --> 00:36:32,435 and financial information. So, 601 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:40,019 yeah, I think there are higher stakes these days than just, downloading that on a Windows computer back in the nineties. Right. 602 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,260 Well and and so, I mean, with 603 00:36:43,519 --> 00:36:44,339 with Zapstore, 604 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,339 with this approach, we get 605 00:36:47,305 --> 00:36:48,365 censorship resistance. 606 00:36:48,905 --> 00:36:49,725 We get 607 00:36:50,665 --> 00:36:51,165 variety. 608 00:36:51,465 --> 00:36:54,365 That's the wrong word. We get choice. It's probably the better word. 609 00:36:55,305 --> 00:36:57,645 What do you see that we need to 610 00:36:59,225 --> 00:37:03,890 be willing to trade for that or in fact give up? So what are the trade offs? 611 00:37:04,670 --> 00:37:05,970 Not even just today, 612 00:37:06,670 --> 00:37:08,290 but where Zapstore is headed. 613 00:37:08,750 --> 00:37:14,595 What are the what are the calculations and trade offs that we're going to need to make to adopt this approach, this model? 614 00:37:16,435 --> 00:37:19,575 They're not trade offs. We're we're gonna be perfect. 615 00:37:21,395 --> 00:37:25,095 I'm gonna you know, now you're on you're on tape as it were saying that. 616 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:28,640 Oh my. Yeah. 617 00:37:32,799 --> 00:37:34,079 The trade offs is is, 618 00:37:35,279 --> 00:37:37,299 you need to get a little bit more involved 619 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:38,420 because, 620 00:37:39,359 --> 00:37:42,035 these are not defaults. Zapstore will not 621 00:37:42,415 --> 00:37:43,474 ship with devices, 622 00:37:44,015 --> 00:37:44,515 probably. 623 00:37:44,974 --> 00:37:48,595 We're gonna try to make that, you know, as easy as possible to 624 00:37:48,974 --> 00:37:51,234 to download. But, it's an extra step 625 00:37:51,855 --> 00:37:59,079 that if you're if you're using the default catalog and that does not suit you and you you're looking to to build other stuff, 626 00:38:00,260 --> 00:38:02,359 I mean, to use other then you 627 00:38:02,740 --> 00:38:04,680 will need to do your own research. 628 00:38:07,219 --> 00:38:12,315 I don't know how that's gonna turn out, like, what what the market will offer offer, basically. Right. 629 00:38:12,775 --> 00:38:14,155 In in terms of alternative 630 00:38:15,415 --> 00:38:17,035 catalogs, basically. So, 631 00:38:18,295 --> 00:38:19,675 but it it is definitely, 632 00:38:20,215 --> 00:38:22,955 more personal responsibility. I bet it sounds like Yeah. 633 00:38:23,495 --> 00:38:25,995 You gotta grow up to use App Store. 634 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:31,180 Yeah. With that said, I wanna There's your tagline, grow up to use Absa. 635 00:38:33,240 --> 00:38:33,740 Noted. 636 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:38,300 With that said, 637 00:38:40,135 --> 00:38:41,835 I'm a bit obsessed with 638 00:38:42,454 --> 00:38:42,954 UX. 639 00:38:43,655 --> 00:38:44,155 So 640 00:38:44,615 --> 00:38:45,115 it's 641 00:38:46,775 --> 00:38:49,835 I've said many times, I don't know how much it shows, but doesn't matter 642 00:38:50,694 --> 00:38:58,440 because, you know, I know where I'm going. So I know exactly what I, what kind of stuff I, you know, they're not gonna be design decisions. 643 00:38:58,740 --> 00:39:04,680 If it's not there now, it's because I didn't have the time to do it. Sure. Like very short resources basically. But 644 00:39:05,859 --> 00:39:07,480 the idea is to try to minimize, 645 00:39:07,780 --> 00:39:12,825 you know, that. Let's say when you put that in terms of trade offs before it used to be, oh, you wanna be, 646 00:39:13,365 --> 00:39:13,805 super, 647 00:39:14,244 --> 00:39:16,585 secure, you're gonna have to, like, PGP verify, 648 00:39:18,085 --> 00:39:22,265 which PGP is another, like, you know, rabbit hole of how that works. 649 00:39:22,730 --> 00:39:24,990 God bless Bill Zimmerman, but it's just not 650 00:39:25,369 --> 00:39:31,309 what we'd hoped it would be. Too impractical. So I don't know. Was that the best, set of trade offs in PGP? 651 00:39:32,170 --> 00:39:34,829 I don't know. Probably not. Maybe, it was a good idea. 652 00:39:35,210 --> 00:39:35,710 Mhmm. 653 00:39:36,250 --> 00:39:36,750 Maybe 654 00:39:37,724 --> 00:39:39,904 because, you know, ahead of time, like, 655 00:39:40,204 --> 00:39:41,105 long time ago, 656 00:39:41,724 --> 00:39:46,944 we didn't see the world the way we do. There were not not, you know, different the technology was a bit different, 657 00:39:48,285 --> 00:39:53,279 but it's pretty bad. You know? Yeah. Bad. I mean, it's you know, you you touched on it. I think 658 00:39:53,660 --> 00:39:56,640 it's a it's fundamentally, as so many things are, it's a UX problem. 659 00:39:58,539 --> 00:40:02,160 And you get people to use it and and, you know, users and devs 660 00:40:02,779 --> 00:40:04,240 when you get great UX. 661 00:40:04,779 --> 00:40:10,385 Right. Absolutely. We're trying to of course, there's these trade offs. We're just trying to get the you know, 662 00:40:10,685 --> 00:40:13,425 to maximize, you know, in all these places. 663 00:40:14,845 --> 00:40:15,345 So 664 00:40:15,805 --> 00:40:17,825 how was I said before, maximize, 665 00:40:19,725 --> 00:40:20,225 certainty? 666 00:40:20,845 --> 00:40:27,329 I think. Oh, so so yeah. Just higher higher confidence, higher certainty. Yeah. High higher higher confidence and certainty 667 00:40:27,869 --> 00:40:28,529 and and usability. 668 00:40:29,710 --> 00:40:31,250 I don't wanna make compromises 669 00:40:32,029 --> 00:40:32,510 there, 670 00:40:32,910 --> 00:40:33,410 especially 671 00:40:33,789 --> 00:40:35,410 I'm getting it easy to use. 672 00:40:36,430 --> 00:40:36,825 Then 673 00:40:37,305 --> 00:40:40,204 we can open up the discussion of centralization 674 00:40:40,665 --> 00:40:52,690 because, you know, one could argue that if you have a curator, you know, well, then you're just delegating trust, but that's fine. We do that all the time. The point is that, where do you feel comfortable and what's what's so it's it's this delicate balance, 675 00:40:53,390 --> 00:40:53,890 between 676 00:40:54,910 --> 00:40:55,410 convenience, 677 00:40:56,430 --> 00:40:56,930 right, 678 00:40:57,869 --> 00:40:58,369 and 679 00:40:59,950 --> 00:41:04,530 and and and sovereignty. Choice. Yeah. Sovereignty. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think that's an excellent point 680 00:41:04,910 --> 00:41:07,285 about delegation of trust is we all outsource 681 00:41:07,985 --> 00:41:09,525 trust to various parties, 682 00:41:09,905 --> 00:41:23,460 all the time for different things. But in the case of app stores or any highly centralized marketplace or or if we can even call it that, you're forced. You know, it's it's it's, their way or the highway. And I think that's a good seg, 683 00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:25,140 Fran, into 684 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:27,140 the conversation about 685 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:34,484 what can you do in the sense of what will you be permitted to do on Android, on iOS. 686 00:41:36,065 --> 00:41:40,484 You probably know, at least here in The US, that Apple last month lost its, 687 00:41:42,305 --> 00:41:43,345 its case. It's, 688 00:41:44,224 --> 00:41:47,410 the the ruling was against Apple and Epic Games v Apple, 689 00:41:47,950 --> 00:41:49,090 and it now 690 00:41:49,790 --> 00:41:56,450 allows external payment or rather will will force them to allow external payment links bypassing, you know, their 30% commission. 691 00:41:56,910 --> 00:42:01,170 And as I understand it may maybe you know more about this. It may enable sideloading. 692 00:42:02,110 --> 00:42:07,255 So that's US only. Who knows what's going, you know, going to follow that. But 693 00:42:08,675 --> 00:42:09,974 what's your take on 694 00:42:10,595 --> 00:42:12,055 where that's headed, perhaps, 695 00:42:13,244 --> 00:42:13,744 and 696 00:42:15,890 --> 00:42:23,350 what's that thin wedge, you know, that you can that you can drive in to to allow to offer this choice 697 00:42:23,730 --> 00:42:29,295 to either Android or iOS or or or wherever? Like, what's, you know, what are 698 00:42:29,755 --> 00:42:33,615 the what are the challenges you're up against there, and and what do you see coming down 699 00:42:34,155 --> 00:42:35,055 the down the pipe? 700 00:42:37,755 --> 00:42:40,495 Yeah. Yeah. Interesting what happened, 701 00:42:41,115 --> 00:42:42,495 the other week because 702 00:42:43,515 --> 00:42:45,720 as far as I understood, it was about payments, 703 00:42:47,300 --> 00:42:50,360 but they're holding on to it. They just don't wanna let go. 704 00:42:50,980 --> 00:42:51,640 It's crazy. 705 00:42:52,180 --> 00:42:54,680 They already lost some battle in Europe. 706 00:42:56,580 --> 00:42:59,924 In Europe, you can apply to have an alternative 707 00:43:01,825 --> 00:43:08,404 marketplace, but it involves a lot of red tape. So it's not as easy, you know. They have They're not going to make it yeah. Not gonna make it easy. Yeah. 708 00:43:08,865 --> 00:43:13,160 So I don't know. I didn't hear much about, the sideloading part in The US. 709 00:43:13,780 --> 00:43:15,240 I don't know if it's gonna happen 710 00:43:15,780 --> 00:43:18,839 if it's gonna, you know, maybe it's death by a thousand cuts. 711 00:43:20,579 --> 00:43:28,684 Because they're gonna have like more, more lawsuits and they're gonna, you know, lose or or and maybe at some point realize that, you know, it's over. Because 712 00:43:29,065 --> 00:43:31,724 one of the things that I don't know if they're realizing, but it's 713 00:43:32,184 --> 00:43:32,684 very 714 00:43:34,025 --> 00:43:35,724 real concrete is, 715 00:43:36,184 --> 00:43:37,164 developer resentment. 716 00:43:38,664 --> 00:43:43,190 I think a lot of developers are, you know, just when they have to publish an app, 717 00:43:43,970 --> 00:43:50,870 end up, like, despising them. Absolutely. You know what I mean? It's it's it's it's so arbitrary, as you said before. Like, a lot of stories 718 00:43:51,410 --> 00:43:52,390 about app submissions, 719 00:43:52,944 --> 00:44:03,125 when they come back and say you need to change this, it's like a it just feels so random that it it does not, like, feels like clonework. You know what I mean? Like, it's not reasonable. It's not reasonable. 720 00:44:04,065 --> 00:44:04,565 So, 721 00:44:07,300 --> 00:44:12,119 who knows is if they are gonna, at some point, wake up and understand this dynamic 722 00:44:12,740 --> 00:44:15,960 and feel that that is impacting their their brand, which is 723 00:44:16,660 --> 00:44:18,705 one of the most valuable things they have, 724 00:44:19,585 --> 00:44:20,405 and just, 725 00:44:20,785 --> 00:44:22,325 you know, open up. 726 00:44:24,865 --> 00:44:30,005 Well, I mean, in in meanwhile, you've got as you say, you know, there's just only so much time in the day. 727 00:44:30,545 --> 00:44:37,240 So I don't assume there's an iOS build coming of Zapstore anytime soon. Is there? Anytime soon. No. It's, 728 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:39,820 I don't know. Would you? Right? I mean, it's 729 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,340 it's it's it's just too difficult. I don't again, 730 00:44:43,645 --> 00:44:47,985 I'm limited on resources and if we just try to do an iOS, it's kind of impossible. But 731 00:44:49,005 --> 00:44:52,785 again, just to just kind of in terms of priorities, it's Android 732 00:44:53,805 --> 00:44:54,785 and then it's 733 00:44:56,630 --> 00:44:58,970 CLI, like, package manager for 734 00:44:59,830 --> 00:45:00,810 Mac and Linux, 735 00:45:01,670 --> 00:45:02,250 and then 736 00:45:03,030 --> 00:45:04,570 desktop for Mac and Linux. 737 00:45:05,110 --> 00:45:09,605 Oh, okay. Great. Yeah. That's the that's the the plan in that order. 738 00:45:10,865 --> 00:45:12,405 But going back to your question, 739 00:45:13,025 --> 00:45:18,005 because you asked, like, how maybe you can let as a way of leveraging or just, like, sneaking into, you know, 740 00:45:19,105 --> 00:45:20,085 into the stores. 741 00:45:20,945 --> 00:45:23,329 Maybe it gets easier, and that will I would reconsider. 742 00:45:24,589 --> 00:45:28,450 But for now, it's there's there's enough work to do with with all these. 743 00:45:29,230 --> 00:45:38,175 And Android is by far the most popular operating system in the world. Pick your battle. Right? Yeah. And then I think after that comes Windows. 744 00:45:40,075 --> 00:45:40,575 And 745 00:45:41,035 --> 00:45:44,335 macOS and Linux desktop is just not not big. But 746 00:45:45,195 --> 00:45:52,750 the point is, like, who you wanna who you wanna serve first. So for me, it's like freedom tech oriented people. Absolutely. I don't know that, like, very few use Windows. 747 00:45:53,450 --> 00:46:02,670 Yeah. And I mean, I'm a you know, as I mentioned to you, I'm a holdout. I I made the switch to Linux, but I'm still hanging on to my iPhone. And so in hanging on to my iPhone, I have, in effect, voted 748 00:46:03,210 --> 00:46:04,190 to be held captive. 749 00:46:04,565 --> 00:46:05,065 Right? 750 00:46:05,445 --> 00:46:05,685 So, 751 00:46:06,565 --> 00:46:09,865 so I I need to be able to understand and take that trade off. 752 00:46:10,405 --> 00:46:10,905 Well, 753 00:46:11,365 --> 00:46:13,305 with that with that is the loose roadmap, 754 00:46:14,485 --> 00:46:18,210 you know, two years down the road, what is the future of zap store look like? 755 00:46:19,490 --> 00:46:21,910 You know, what what sort of v one, v two 756 00:46:22,609 --> 00:46:23,750 look like for you? 757 00:46:24,690 --> 00:46:26,070 Vibe coding on steroids. 758 00:46:29,010 --> 00:46:29,510 Nice. 759 00:46:30,770 --> 00:46:34,655 I'm I'm I'm at sort of features, but but, yeah, I now I've got a picture of of, 760 00:46:35,375 --> 00:46:36,835 you know, like, how you install 761 00:46:37,215 --> 00:46:43,795 Mountview and You understood it as how I'm gonna build it? Okay. Yes. I did. But I mean, how are you gonna use it? 762 00:46:44,495 --> 00:46:46,995 Ah, okay. Please go ahead. Tell me more. Okay. 763 00:46:47,660 --> 00:46:51,520 I mean, I don't know. I don't know. It just just sounded fun to say. 764 00:46:53,820 --> 00:46:54,640 But I think, 765 00:46:55,420 --> 00:46:57,040 you know, on a more serious note, 766 00:46:58,220 --> 00:46:58,960 the future 767 00:46:59,340 --> 00:47:00,320 of apps 768 00:47:01,785 --> 00:47:05,645 is gonna change. I mean, is is is is changing, let's say. 769 00:47:07,145 --> 00:47:07,645 So 770 00:47:08,185 --> 00:47:09,325 are we gonna still 771 00:47:09,785 --> 00:47:11,565 be downloading apps from developers? 772 00:47:12,970 --> 00:47:13,470 Yes. 773 00:47:16,090 --> 00:47:17,870 Most developers will be, 774 00:47:18,570 --> 00:47:19,230 you know, 775 00:47:19,610 --> 00:47:20,830 powered by 776 00:47:21,690 --> 00:47:22,430 AI agents 777 00:47:23,770 --> 00:47:24,510 for sure. 778 00:47:25,130 --> 00:47:27,230 Most of us probably are doing it already. 779 00:47:28,724 --> 00:47:32,904 At some point, maybe you're gonna have some apps and this is gonna be gradual 780 00:47:34,005 --> 00:47:34,505 where 781 00:47:36,005 --> 00:47:38,085 you can just do, for example, if you, 782 00:47:38,565 --> 00:47:39,065 wanna 783 00:47:41,380 --> 00:47:43,560 that's that's pretty feasible these days. And let me, 784 00:47:44,020 --> 00:47:47,480 define or describe what is Vibe coding for those who may not know. 785 00:47:48,740 --> 00:47:53,560 Okay. Vibe coding is a term introduced by, I think, Andrej Karpathy, 786 00:47:54,500 --> 00:47:59,295 was one of the was he a founder of OpenAI? I'm not sure. But he was he's a kind of, OG 787 00:47:59,595 --> 00:48:01,615 or or the in the AI space. 788 00:48:03,595 --> 00:48:05,934 And he tweeted out something about, like, 789 00:48:07,115 --> 00:48:11,100 there's a thing that I call, like, vibe coding coding that is basically, 790 00:48:11,720 --> 00:48:13,980 just talking to my computer and my phone. 791 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:15,900 And just, like, as I feel, 792 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:17,020 you know, 793 00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:25,575 then I I I I build stuff by by by just kind of, like, giving instructions and, like, see how what the what the AI gives back to me. 794 00:48:26,835 --> 00:48:28,855 And you just keep modifying it that way. 795 00:48:30,434 --> 00:48:33,095 So, you know, and that that became kind of a meme. 796 00:48:33,635 --> 00:48:34,295 And, like, 797 00:48:35,154 --> 00:48:38,295 people use And for those who aren't tracking, you know, these LLMs, 798 00:48:41,210 --> 00:48:42,910 be they, anthropics clawed, 799 00:48:43,610 --> 00:48:45,150 various models from OpenAI, 800 00:48:47,290 --> 00:48:49,070 tools like Cursor Cline, others, 801 00:48:49,530 --> 00:48:51,855 you know, the the again, as a hobbyist and someone 802 00:49:03,855 --> 00:49:04,355 the 803 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:12,059 that the pace of development, the pace of acceleration with these technologies and these tools is remarkable. So please go ahead, Fran. 804 00:49:12,839 --> 00:49:13,660 Yeah. Absolutely. 805 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:20,380 And the dynamics will change because of now what's what these tools are capable of doing right now, 806 00:49:21,745 --> 00:49:24,645 you know, gives you a certain idea of, you know, 807 00:49:25,505 --> 00:49:32,005 which apps can be totally vibe coded, meaning, yeah, you can just anyone can talk to the AI and they get the app running, 808 00:49:32,705 --> 00:49:33,205 or, 809 00:49:34,310 --> 00:49:35,450 they can assist 810 00:49:35,990 --> 00:49:36,490 developers 811 00:49:37,110 --> 00:49:43,130 and certain things are are are, in my opinion, so far impossible to do. Or just very Such as? 812 00:49:45,110 --> 00:49:53,295 Like, building a a product with a vision because, you know, in there comes the the human values, and this is something the AI cannot do. 813 00:49:53,595 --> 00:49:55,855 Like, what, you know, what are your priorities and 814 00:49:56,155 --> 00:49:58,175 and even, like, just a higher level 815 00:49:58,635 --> 00:49:59,855 direction of a project. 816 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:07,940 Maybe it can do it in some way. But I feel it's just much better when you give it, like, tight guidelines 817 00:50:08,720 --> 00:50:14,100 and, you know Constraint breeds creativity. Constraints and and it excels there. 818 00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,540 It's gonna get better for sure. But at the moment, I feel like 819 00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:18,585 most 820 00:50:19,224 --> 00:50:19,724 apps 821 00:50:22,825 --> 00:50:27,484 are they're like the sweet spot will be like a dev assisted by AI publishing their apps, 822 00:50:28,185 --> 00:50:32,350 and just using it for whatever, you know, holes they can they can they can fill, 823 00:50:34,090 --> 00:50:41,310 with AI patches, basically. But So if we if we take that back to Zapstore or app distribution or marketplaces, I mean, I 824 00:50:41,690 --> 00:50:45,710 don't wanna put words in your mouth, but what struck me when you started down that path 825 00:50:46,755 --> 00:50:48,454 was to ask you, do you mean 826 00:50:48,994 --> 00:50:50,375 no more off the shelf 827 00:50:50,835 --> 00:50:54,055 apps, you know, that I get a bespoke app for me? Is that 828 00:50:54,515 --> 00:50:57,815 what you see coming? I mean, how does that distribution model change? Because 829 00:50:58,275 --> 00:51:02,359 you had started to say that the future of apps, it's themselves will change. 830 00:51:03,140 --> 00:51:04,520 So my question would be, 831 00:51:05,779 --> 00:51:06,440 how will 832 00:51:07,380 --> 00:51:10,599 the Apple App Store and the Google Play Store deal with that? 833 00:51:11,220 --> 00:51:13,960 Because these apps, you know, are if you're they're bespoke 834 00:51:14,315 --> 00:51:14,815 and 835 00:51:15,515 --> 00:51:17,055 basically built on the fly, 836 00:51:18,635 --> 00:51:23,455 like, they're gonna go through a review process of a week? For five weeks. Yeah. Or whatever it is today. 837 00:51:24,155 --> 00:51:25,695 No. That model is dead. 838 00:51:26,795 --> 00:51:31,160 Great point. Like, I'm I'm not saying it's gonna die right away. No. But you're gonna have 839 00:51:31,619 --> 00:51:43,815 a transition period probably and they have to figure out other ways. So that's, you know What replaces it? Is that where Web of Trust reputation and what we've talked about comes in? Exactly. Because I feel like in that sense, 840 00:51:45,095 --> 00:51:46,395 what I'm building with Zapstore 841 00:51:48,055 --> 00:51:50,714 has better ingredients to build that kind of stuff 842 00:51:51,575 --> 00:51:53,875 than they do with these, 843 00:51:54,775 --> 00:51:55,595 big centralized 844 00:51:56,454 --> 00:51:58,155 world gardens. They've got the wrong primitives. 845 00:51:58,855 --> 00:51:59,355 Yeah. 846 00:52:00,110 --> 00:52:01,970 They can build a new thing for sure. 847 00:52:03,230 --> 00:52:03,730 But 848 00:52:05,790 --> 00:52:08,130 we're talking now that if you wanna 849 00:52:10,510 --> 00:52:12,130 vibe an app into existence 850 00:52:13,870 --> 00:52:15,315 and you wanna have, like, 851 00:52:15,795 --> 00:52:18,775 an open market of agents that can fulfill this job, 852 00:52:20,835 --> 00:52:25,815 then it's better to have it, like, connect to as many as possible to, like, a global 853 00:52:26,595 --> 00:52:27,815 free market of agents. 854 00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:28,900 Right? 855 00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:34,660 Right. And that is, like, the kind of primitives that we use in in Nasr and Bitcoin. 856 00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,740 Can you okay. So speaking of Vibe coding, can you can you riff 857 00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,935 a little bit? What does that wild future look like 858 00:52:43,635 --> 00:52:46,775 of, you know, bespoke apps based on 859 00:52:47,715 --> 00:52:57,335 agents doing my bidding with, you know, using zaps to pay each other? You get where I'm going. So so what does that crazy future look like in your mind? 860 00:52:59,930 --> 00:53:02,349 I guess it's gonna be a transition towards that. 861 00:53:02,650 --> 00:53:03,950 And I don't know if 862 00:53:04,329 --> 00:53:12,115 it's gonna be a % disco back bespoke apps because a lot of the times, you know, there is surrounding a product, you you have, 863 00:53:12,974 --> 00:53:19,075 even culture, right? Like you have like certain UI patterns and stuff and everyone's using the same app. So now people can, 864 00:53:21,535 --> 00:53:26,190 I guess when they're stuck with something, just ask a friend, hey, you know, what are you using? It's like 865 00:53:26,670 --> 00:53:28,210 not everyone will have their own 866 00:53:28,910 --> 00:53:29,890 Nostril client. 867 00:53:30,190 --> 00:53:34,210 You could, which is great, but I feel it's not gonna be one to one. 868 00:53:36,430 --> 00:53:38,130 However, it's not gonna be like 869 00:53:38,990 --> 00:53:39,490 Facebook, 870 00:53:39,915 --> 00:53:45,775 which is one to millions. Everyone, billions, yeah. So it's gonna, that means it's gonna make, 871 00:53:47,515 --> 00:53:49,535 it's gonna improve like the long tail. 872 00:53:51,275 --> 00:53:54,090 Because you're gonna have like way more apps. And that's, 873 00:53:54,810 --> 00:53:57,230 you know, if you can build on an open protocol as an Oster, 874 00:53:58,170 --> 00:54:05,950 like all of a sudden, Oster will have, like, million, you know, million apps. And I don't know if millions of users. We have more apps than users. I'm not sure. 875 00:54:07,355 --> 00:54:16,414 That's it's entirely possible. You know, and I think and and I'll just probe here to see if you've been thinking about this, Fran. You know, what occurs to me is, as you talked about the long tail 876 00:54:17,035 --> 00:54:17,535 and 877 00:54:18,075 --> 00:54:25,060 as opposed to one to billions, it's one to many, whatever that looks like. It seems to me that would also change 878 00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:26,340 monetization 879 00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:28,980 and how developers, you know, 880 00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:36,260 earn a living from be it open source or, or commercial applications. I mean, do you see a scenario where 881 00:54:38,195 --> 00:54:38,695 developer 882 00:54:39,075 --> 00:54:40,775 developers publish code 883 00:54:42,515 --> 00:54:51,175 at at my bidding agents do their thing to customize and sort of all of that, almost like a royalty stream flows back to the developer? Do you have any thoughts or 884 00:54:51,510 --> 00:54:57,290 positions on what that may look like? We've talked a lot about the user experience experience, but on the developer side. 885 00:54:59,350 --> 00:55:01,130 Yeah. For now, we have 886 00:55:01,910 --> 00:55:02,950 the model with 887 00:55:03,270 --> 00:55:04,005 which is 888 00:55:04,484 --> 00:55:09,065 developers publishing apps, which is at the moment a value for value model because, 889 00:55:10,085 --> 00:55:12,825 they just upload their apps to 890 00:55:14,085 --> 00:55:20,260 the Relay, to the Blossom server, and so on. They get downloaded and people zap back as we do, on social media. 891 00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:22,260 Then I hope to 892 00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:24,100 build 893 00:55:24,720 --> 00:55:25,380 a paywall 894 00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:33,714 for developers that wish to, you know, sell an app. Mhmm. That's totally fine, you know, or sell an upgrade, for example. That would be a possibility. 895 00:55:34,415 --> 00:55:37,155 But then how is it gonna change in terms of 896 00:55:39,214 --> 00:55:39,714 AIs? 897 00:55:40,655 --> 00:55:43,954 You know, maybe we have developers that are bots 898 00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:52,460 and they, you know, they receive and maybe, maybe when they receive the money or someone owns those, those bots and I guess that that is gonna be the revenue stream. 899 00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:54,380 But 900 00:55:55,000 --> 00:56:00,505 if they're like devs that are augmented by by AI, well, I mean, if they create a great product 901 00:56:00,965 --> 00:56:08,425 really fast and they can charge good money for it while not spending as much, or they can throw their resources onto AIs. So, 902 00:56:08,885 --> 00:56:09,865 we're going to see 903 00:56:10,370 --> 00:56:15,270 a variety of of of models. But in my opinion, it's gonna take a long time until 904 00:56:15,650 --> 00:56:23,110 we reach the point in we can just, like, definitely Vibe code an app, you know, and, because I mean, from the from the 905 00:56:23,875 --> 00:56:26,375 from the human input, you need to know 906 00:56:27,075 --> 00:56:27,575 what 907 00:56:28,435 --> 00:56:34,775 you want first. And a lot of times you don't know what, even what you want. Cause let's say you even want to build a calculator. 908 00:56:36,515 --> 00:56:40,600 The AI will ask you if you you're gonna ask to give it, like, a product, 909 00:56:41,140 --> 00:56:43,000 description sheet or something like that 910 00:56:43,620 --> 00:56:45,800 before, like, defining the the product. 911 00:56:46,500 --> 00:56:58,365 And most users will get annoyed just by that. You know? It's like, oh, the calculator. Do you want to be scientific? Or Do you want reverse polish annotation? What do you want? Yeah. Do you want this or that? Do which color should it be? All the buttons, this and that. So, 912 00:56:59,865 --> 00:57:04,700 sure, you could get, like, better defaults and so on, but, I feel like, having people that 913 00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:11,180 take their time and they're professionals and that they build applications, 914 00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:13,980 is gonna remain. 915 00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:18,635 Again, maybe one dev can build a hundred apps versus one app, 916 00:57:19,095 --> 00:57:23,355 but there's still gonna be some direction and some decisions made at that at that level. 917 00:57:24,135 --> 00:57:24,635 And, 918 00:57:25,415 --> 00:57:27,275 yeah, users will will just benefit. 919 00:57:28,455 --> 00:57:38,849 And if you're a power user that wants to, yeah, I have the time and I want something, or you're super annoyed about something and you just want something very specific and and you wanna put enough time into describing it, 920 00:57:39,710 --> 00:57:41,650 sure. Why not? You'll have these programs. 921 00:57:42,590 --> 00:57:44,715 Yeah. I think it's really interesting. I'm reminded of 922 00:57:45,595 --> 00:57:49,355 the Japanese phrase, omakase, chef's choice. Right? Which is that, 923 00:57:50,075 --> 00:57:57,215 yes, there are times when I just wanna roll in. And as it happens, I love to do that in great Japanese restaurants is to sit at the bar and 924 00:57:57,675 --> 00:57:58,655 and, you know, 925 00:57:59,710 --> 00:58:04,050 chef's choice. And so, you know, I think this this opens up interesting possibilities 926 00:58:04,350 --> 00:58:04,850 for 927 00:58:05,310 --> 00:58:06,850 developers, product people 928 00:58:07,310 --> 00:58:13,250 to continue to put or to put their stamp on things in that way, in that in that fashion of Omakase. 929 00:58:15,265 --> 00:58:20,325 So as we as we wrap up, Fran, I'd love to get your take, and this may be, 930 00:58:22,385 --> 00:58:26,965 something you've you've thought about as you've gone through this process is, what do you think 931 00:58:28,730 --> 00:58:33,390 this change that you're bringing about and others are working hard on to decentralize 932 00:58:33,930 --> 00:58:35,310 app stores to, 933 00:58:36,970 --> 00:58:37,869 give that choice? 934 00:58:39,369 --> 00:58:40,829 What lessons does that offer 935 00:58:41,775 --> 00:58:44,835 to other tech sectors? So social media, cloud computing, 936 00:58:45,375 --> 00:58:48,674 IT broadly. Like, what do you think are the changes that are coming 937 00:58:49,295 --> 00:58:50,355 that those working 938 00:58:50,815 --> 00:58:53,555 in those other sectors need to pay attention to? 939 00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:58,759 I'm not sure about this one. 940 00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:03,900 Can you give, like, an example? Yeah. Yeah. So so what are the big signals? I mean, you know, we talked quite a bit about Nostr. 941 00:59:05,559 --> 00:59:06,059 Assuming 942 00:59:07,925 --> 00:59:09,785 these changes come to pass, assuming 943 00:59:10,085 --> 00:59:14,345 Zapstore is successful, assuming Nostr, you know, continues and grows and flourishes, 944 00:59:15,285 --> 00:59:16,265 what disruptions 945 00:59:18,245 --> 00:59:21,240 do these technologies represent to business as usual 946 00:59:34,475 --> 00:59:46,095 it's a good one. I haven't thought really much about, like, how will this impact other other other industries. And and not even Zapstox. Just like what what are what are these sort of changes? Yeah. But regardless, it's it's all the stuff that we've been talking about. 947 00:59:48,315 --> 00:59:51,510 If our thesis is right. Yeah. There we go. Right. 948 00:59:52,849 --> 00:59:54,309 That decentralized protocols 949 00:59:54,769 --> 00:59:56,950 in in a in an agent 950 00:59:57,490 --> 00:59:57,990 world 951 00:59:58,369 --> 01:00:02,115 will, you know, make sense and that some money also makes sense, 952 01:00:04,115 --> 01:00:06,615 to to basically coordinate this economy. 953 01:00:07,155 --> 01:00:10,535 Like, that will obviously impact, like, lots of industries. 954 01:00:12,115 --> 01:00:12,615 And, 955 01:00:13,155 --> 01:00:19,200 yes, Absa is just one more instance of of of how that is that it's impacting, but that specifically 956 01:00:19,740 --> 01:00:22,559 in software, I guess software gets, you know, all these 957 01:00:23,900 --> 01:00:24,640 is exposed 958 01:00:25,900 --> 01:00:27,680 earlier to to all these technologies. 959 01:00:28,059 --> 01:00:32,240 Absolutely. I mean, for example, if we if we were to to extrapolate this out 960 01:00:32,675 --> 01:00:34,855 to music, to books, to 961 01:00:36,195 --> 01:00:38,295 harder. Right? Because of the way the rights, 962 01:00:38,915 --> 01:00:40,375 copyright and other works. 963 01:00:43,234 --> 01:00:45,335 So a lot of people are building 964 01:00:46,275 --> 01:00:46,775 similar 965 01:00:47,490 --> 01:00:47,990 projects 966 01:00:48,690 --> 01:00:49,350 on Nostr. 967 01:00:52,850 --> 01:00:54,230 I opted to go with 968 01:00:54,530 --> 01:00:55,670 a software distribution, 969 01:00:56,050 --> 01:00:57,750 but there's people that are building, 970 01:00:58,210 --> 01:01:00,070 well, as you can even see on Zapstore, 971 01:01:00,370 --> 01:01:01,190 you can see, 972 01:01:01,650 --> 01:01:01,935 the guys 973 01:01:02,895 --> 01:01:04,195 that build like the 974 01:01:04,495 --> 01:01:09,075 running app or work workout. So is that like, is, is that gonna revolutionize 975 01:01:09,535 --> 01:01:17,800 the workout industry in some way? I don't know. I have no idea, but that's one way then for social media and all that, maybe we're more familiar. 976 01:01:18,180 --> 01:01:20,680 I think some people are in the medical space, 977 01:01:21,220 --> 01:01:23,640 so they're, they want to improve how, 978 01:01:24,260 --> 01:01:29,955 patients and doctors get the relationship in terms of like the privacy and the data they share and so on based 979 01:01:30,355 --> 01:01:33,495 on digital signatures and they're using Nostra for that. 980 01:01:33,795 --> 01:01:36,455 So I think very slowly, you know, this would 981 01:01:36,755 --> 01:01:37,895 percolate and, 982 01:01:38,595 --> 01:01:39,975 I think that the, the primitives 983 01:01:40,435 --> 01:01:41,335 are so interesting 984 01:01:42,195 --> 01:01:49,950 and the fact of having like open protocols so that people can experiment with stuff and see maybe there are some bad ideas that don't stick. Sure. I hope. 985 01:01:50,410 --> 01:01:53,230 And if not, we're not trying hard enough, right? Yeah, exactly. 986 01:01:53,690 --> 01:01:54,190 So, 987 01:01:55,690 --> 01:01:57,165 I don't know, maybe some industries will, 988 01:01:58,765 --> 01:01:59,505 will take longer, 989 01:02:01,165 --> 01:02:01,905 but I feel like with enough 990 01:02:03,245 --> 01:02:04,945 developers, which Nostra attracts, 991 01:02:06,445 --> 01:02:09,345 we're gonna see people experimenting with all sorts of things 992 01:02:09,645 --> 01:02:15,090 and having ideas that, you know, I I'm not aware of others of other things or problems in specific 993 01:02:15,550 --> 01:02:18,370 verticals. But people that have maybe experienced 994 01:02:18,910 --> 01:02:20,610 in an industry working for 995 01:02:21,150 --> 01:02:21,650 years, 996 01:02:22,110 --> 01:02:26,295 now they see this and they see, you know, when you see an intersection, 997 01:02:27,955 --> 01:02:28,695 of abilities, 998 01:02:29,155 --> 01:02:31,575 you have, like, kind of a tech background and you're, 999 01:02:32,195 --> 01:02:41,080 let's say, you discovered Bitcoin earlier. So then now you see Nasr and then you see the problems in your industry, and now you can basically just conjure something and 1000 01:02:41,940 --> 01:02:44,040 visualize it and and and make it happen. 1001 01:02:46,340 --> 01:02:46,840 Honestly, 1002 01:02:47,380 --> 01:02:49,640 I think the primitives that we have are 1003 01:02:51,300 --> 01:02:53,720 are simple, but are very powerful because 1004 01:02:54,444 --> 01:03:00,944 basically anything can be built. It's easier to centralize something that's decentralized than the other way around. 1005 01:03:01,325 --> 01:03:03,905 So again, to my point, of 1006 01:03:04,365 --> 01:03:04,944 of catalogs, 1007 01:03:05,885 --> 01:03:08,730 it's not that in Zapstore, for example, you can 1008 01:03:14,330 --> 01:03:18,109 download something, you need to know who this person is. Of course, you're gonna have like these 1009 01:03:18,570 --> 01:03:25,255 middlemen, let's say, that curate and just present you with stuff that is easy. Oh, I trust this really instead of trusting this person. 1010 01:03:26,755 --> 01:03:30,055 What I mean by that is like, that's again, the balance that we're striking 1011 01:03:30,355 --> 01:03:32,615 in terms of convenience and sovereignty. 1012 01:03:33,635 --> 01:03:34,135 And 1013 01:03:36,035 --> 01:03:43,120 since we can do that, you know, all of a sudden it's like, okay, now we have like a gradual, like a slider, let's say, 1014 01:03:43,660 --> 01:03:45,520 between like the status quo 1015 01:03:45,820 --> 01:03:46,880 in any industry 1016 01:03:47,500 --> 01:03:48,000 and 1017 01:03:48,700 --> 01:03:57,085 like, okay, what's the cypherpunk dream for this industry, right? Right. But maybe what works is somewhere in the middle. So we can adjust that because, 1018 01:03:57,705 --> 01:04:02,765 of course, like, we can centralize more the decentralized, but we we cannot do the other way around. 1019 01:04:03,225 --> 01:04:07,085 No. I think it's a great perspective is, you know, we've got the building blocks. 1020 01:04:08,109 --> 01:04:09,010 It is permissionless. 1021 01:04:09,390 --> 01:04:10,930 It is censorship resistant. 1022 01:04:11,710 --> 01:04:23,205 It is straightforward. And so developers, as you say, are attracted and they're experimenting and building. And that's what's exciting to me about, about Nostra, about all of of, what's being built on it. Well, 1023 01:04:24,005 --> 01:04:30,585 for closing, Fran, what do we what should we look forward to from from Zapstore in the coming months? 1024 01:04:31,205 --> 01:04:34,985 What's the next big, what's the next big release we should look, look out for? 1025 01:04:36,309 --> 01:04:37,609 Wow. So I've been 1026 01:04:37,910 --> 01:04:38,730 very busy 1027 01:04:39,270 --> 01:04:40,089 with internals. 1028 01:04:40,390 --> 01:04:42,329 So, like, reworking a lot of the plumbing. 1029 01:04:43,990 --> 01:04:44,490 And 1030 01:04:45,750 --> 01:04:46,970 it's gonna be great. 1031 01:04:47,910 --> 01:04:49,049 It's gonna be great. 1032 01:04:50,075 --> 01:04:50,575 It's, 1033 01:04:51,835 --> 01:04:52,735 I'm finally 1034 01:04:53,435 --> 01:04:53,935 satisfied 1035 01:04:54,235 --> 01:04:54,555 with, 1036 01:04:55,275 --> 01:04:58,975 with with all the internal stuff, meaning that for users 1037 01:05:00,075 --> 01:05:11,030 and devs, like, they will see probably, like, a lot of changes come because now it's much easier to build on. So all the social features, like many more social features, for example, and right now when you enter the app, you can see recommendations 1038 01:05:12,130 --> 01:05:18,310 from me and a bunch of my friends. But like the idea is that they should be your friends, your recommendations. And 1039 01:05:19,730 --> 01:05:23,885 like having an app packs, for example, and the ability of bookmarking 1040 01:05:24,265 --> 01:05:25,645 and saving and sharing 1041 01:05:26,345 --> 01:05:41,619 and all that stuff, that's gonna be just way better. Like, you would expect from a Nostra client where, you know, you can you can your experience is more yours than in in Zapsura at the moment. It's not the case. It's pretty, you know, standard for for everybody. 1042 01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:43,619 So that's gonna 1043 01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:44,420 improve 1044 01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:46,420 and, 1045 01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:51,484 the ability of managing relays and blossom servers from where you wanna download stuff. 1046 01:05:52,105 --> 01:05:53,645 And then a big one, 1047 01:05:54,025 --> 01:05:57,885 you know, I I feel I'm working on I I kinda grinding on, 1048 01:05:58,265 --> 01:06:01,405 like, 10 different, like, sub projects at the time. So 1049 01:06:01,990 --> 01:06:06,870 it just it's very heavy and it goes slow. But, at some point, like, I'm gonna find, 1050 01:06:07,830 --> 01:06:08,650 you know, the 1051 01:06:09,830 --> 01:06:12,970 the point in which, everything is gonna go faster. Like, 1052 01:06:14,085 --> 01:06:17,465 you're building on the dish. I'm going up the hill. Yeah. Basically, I know. 1053 01:06:17,845 --> 01:06:19,545 But the the idea is 1054 01:06:20,484 --> 01:06:20,984 having 1055 01:06:22,484 --> 01:06:26,905 a much bigger catalog because I think that's super important. So by that, I mean, 1056 01:06:27,490 --> 01:06:27,990 if 1057 01:06:28,450 --> 01:06:42,495 you recall, as I mentioned, Optaneum before, like when you use Optaneum, we have access to basically as long as you can point to the to the APK on Android, like you can you can get it and you can install it. So the idea is 1058 01:06:43,055 --> 01:06:44,995 how do you how do we get that at same 1059 01:06:45,935 --> 01:06:47,875 amount of apps on Zapstore? 1060 01:06:48,895 --> 01:06:52,015 And so I'm, slowly building this new relay, which, 1061 01:06:53,055 --> 01:06:54,675 will be basically a proxy 1062 01:06:55,055 --> 01:06:56,035 to APKs 1063 01:06:56,495 --> 01:06:57,315 around the web. 1064 01:06:57,615 --> 01:06:59,540 So you'll be able to search 1065 01:06:59,840 --> 01:07:05,860 and, you know, in the back in the back end, it will just go and, you know, find the stuff and index it index it. 1066 01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:07,700 And 1067 01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:10,500 with that, you know, I feel like 1068 01:07:12,155 --> 01:07:18,895 now there's gonna be even more reasons to use it because you can just have like way more apps. And if you put that the social part on top of that, 1069 01:07:20,555 --> 01:07:24,690 it's gonna be it's gonna start becoming interesting. And then I wanna separate the relay from what, all 1070 01:07:27,970 --> 01:07:29,990 all the stuff that is signed by developers 1071 01:07:30,369 --> 01:07:31,510 will go in one place 1072 01:07:31,810 --> 01:07:42,925 and stuff that is just like kind of generic and signed by the relay will go elsewhere. So then you can, some people just only want signed apps by developers. They can check on the web of trust. Right. 1073 01:07:43,625 --> 01:07:44,125 And, 1074 01:07:45,385 --> 01:07:56,089 by the way, those are checks that we do every time you go before installing, you know, there's all the security things where you can check, you know, if you have friends in common, like if you follow who follows school. So that's 1075 01:07:57,430 --> 01:07:59,369 an important way of, like, distinguishing 1076 01:08:00,069 --> 01:08:00,809 that part. 1077 01:08:01,750 --> 01:08:02,490 What else? 1078 01:08:04,069 --> 01:08:06,809 Man, is that not enough? That's pretty much the idea. 1079 01:08:07,269 --> 01:08:08,250 Just closing 1080 01:08:08,615 --> 01:08:10,454 is the Zapster CLI, which, 1081 01:08:11,734 --> 01:08:13,515 I'll be I'll be launching, like, 1082 01:08:14,295 --> 01:08:15,434 next week probably. 1083 01:08:15,815 --> 01:08:17,915 And it's gonna be, you know, 1084 01:08:18,535 --> 01:08:22,330 quite nice experience. And the same applies to two packages, not only APKs, 1085 01:08:23,910 --> 01:08:31,530 all around the web and GitHub and so on, but also for packages. And in the future, we if we can apply that to macOS Linux desktop, 1086 01:08:32,150 --> 01:08:34,410 you know, I think that will be a pretty nice year. 1087 01:08:35,175 --> 01:08:38,795 Incredible. Well, I know you're writing code right up to the point that we started recording, 1088 01:08:39,255 --> 01:08:43,435 Fran. So sincerely, thanks for for pressing pause. You're gonna let me go now? 1089 01:08:43,815 --> 01:08:46,295 No. Yeah. Gil, let's get back to it. Right? So, 1090 01:08:47,095 --> 01:08:51,840 I am grateful for your time. Super exciting, Fran. I wish all the best. I'm looking forward to tracking progress and, 1091 01:08:53,120 --> 01:09:02,580 I've got zero point one point two running on my machine right now, so I'll keep up. Awesome. We'll we'll check back in a few months. Thanks, Fran. Thank you so much. Bye bye.