1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,480 Yes, welcome. 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:05,740 Hey, thanks for having me. 3 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:07,240 Appreciate you taking the time. 4 00:00:07,900 --> 00:00:13,040 So perhaps a question you are tired of or delighted by is, 5 00:00:13,040 --> 00:00:14,840 is I found, 6 00:00:15,060 --> 00:00:21,720 I found a Matthias Bus on a website claiming a number five position in a 7 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:24,620 Rubik's cube competition in 2008. Is that you? 8 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:26,020 No, that's not me. 9 00:00:26,340 --> 00:00:27,180 Oh, okay. Okay. 10 00:00:27,220 --> 00:00:28,020 That's a good guess. 11 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:29,140 Yeah, yeah. 12 00:00:29,140 --> 00:00:30,260 There was a hyphen. 13 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:31,400 Yeah. 14 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:34,020 That's good, though. 15 00:00:34,020 --> 00:00:35,880 I can see how all the signals are aligning. 16 00:00:36,260 --> 00:00:37,200 On the name, right? 17 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:37,720 Yeah, yeah. 18 00:00:37,980 --> 00:00:46,260 Well, so, you know, okay, so you're not a Rubik's Cube master, but you have for measure contributed roughly 1,000 NPM modules. 19 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:47,940 That was you, right? 20 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:48,580 Yeah. 21 00:00:48,580 --> 00:00:48,680 Okay. 22 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,960 I learned to – so it's actually funny you mention that because I think about this a lot. 23 00:00:52,960 --> 00:01:00,120 I, so I, um, um, I came up through like, uh, you know, went to school and all this stuff. 24 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:01,840 And I went, I studied math at university. 25 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,920 And one of the things that was very, very, I always think about the set the stage for 26 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:09,800 my career was like this, the humbling, I would call it. 27 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:15,400 Uh, so, so like, uh, when you were like study something like math, where there's like an 28 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,860 appeal for a very certain amount of people, um, you come in, you're like, maybe I like 29 00:01:19,860 --> 00:01:20,360 playing chess. 30 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:21,180 Maybe I'm good at chess. 31 00:01:21,260 --> 00:01:22,340 Maybe I like doing the rubric scoops. 32 00:01:22,340 --> 00:01:28,140 And then you just meet these people who are like twice as good, five times as good, 10 times as good, 100 times as good. 33 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,080 And you just realize, wow, okay, I can never compete with that. 34 00:01:31,340 --> 00:01:33,220 So I got to compete with something else. 35 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,660 And then you learn how to maybe navigate how other things work. 36 00:01:37,660 --> 00:01:38,280 Shift lanes. 37 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:39,320 Yeah. 38 00:01:39,320 --> 00:01:51,700 And I often think about that when you have an experience like that, you can either become like a person who's like resentful from that or you can kind of like learn from that and grow into something else. 39 00:01:51,700 --> 00:01:53,620 And I like to think that I did the latter part. 40 00:01:53,740 --> 00:01:54,600 Maybe I am resentful. 41 00:01:55,220 --> 00:02:00,240 Well, you know, and I misattribute this, so I won't try. 42 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:10,300 But someone wise said, you know, that you should continue to sort of niche down until you become the best in the world at what you're doing, which, you know, looks good in a coffee mug. 43 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:11,400 It's a little harder in practice. 44 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:22,580 But I think – and, you know, the reason I mentioned the 1,000 MPM modules, and for those who do not know, Node.js is a, let's just say, at a high level, an application development framework. 45 00:02:22,820 --> 00:02:27,820 And the bottom line is, Matthias, you have contributed a just astounding amount of open source code. 46 00:02:28,060 --> 00:02:35,040 And so I point that out and I sort of raise that as a sense of what drives you. 47 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:40,760 And I won't presume to speak for you, but, of course, we're going to talk about hole punch and other work. 48 00:02:41,400 --> 00:03:06,620 But, you know, let's start here. Like what has been the through line so far in, you know, from let's say from studying mathematics to work where you are now, in essence, trying to sort of rip the centralization out of major, you know, applications that we use every day? Like what drives that? 49 00:03:06,620 --> 00:03:12,560 that's a super good question i think uh in general i'm very driven by the power of the 50 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:17,520 individual i think i think that's like a lot of people in in our space are like that and what i 51 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:23,160 mean by that is actually just very egotistically what can i do as a person myself to make an impact 52 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:30,120 on my surroundings uh and like um when i went to school i actually i didn't know programming um 53 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,640 and i only had like done a bit of mathematics and stuff and was very interested in that and 54 00:03:34,640 --> 00:03:39,900 And part through the school, we got introduced to that because they wanted us to have a job afterwards. 55 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:40,820 And it was like a requirement. 56 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:48,900 That was one of the first times I kind of like got the sense of like, like I said, the power of the individual where, wow, I can just, I can learn something. 57 00:03:49,420 --> 00:03:53,960 I can write, I can become pretty good at writing some code as most people can. 58 00:03:54,740 --> 00:04:01,080 And I can just publish that online and you can take it and you don't even have to talk to me and you can run that code. 59 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:05,340 and now you can use that to do something else and contribute back and we can kind of snowball from 60 00:04:05,340 --> 00:04:11,420 there and we don't need to involve any kind of like organization we don't need to have any kind 61 00:04:11,420 --> 00:04:15,120 of funding we can just kind of do this on our own time obviously with like limitations and stuff like 62 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:21,900 that but it's this like unhinged uh productivity and like uh creativity that that unlocks immediately 63 00:04:21,900 --> 00:04:27,380 spoke to me because i just felt like wow i can just it's just like the more i put in the more i 64 00:04:27,380 --> 00:04:34,500 it out so right so uh it was actually somehow a very quick path from like writing like one module 65 00:04:34,500 --> 00:04:38,220 to like writing a thousand because it's just kind of like going like that uh and it's like 66 00:04:38,220 --> 00:04:44,440 self-triggering you know so um so i'm a big believer in just doing things uh and um software 67 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,820 for me obviously that's all the feels but software for me yeah i mean if one is if one is going to 68 00:04:48,820 --> 00:04:55,860 have a compulsion i can't i have kid this is a great compulsion you know and i i mean i i got my 69 00:04:55,860 --> 00:05:01,140 first computer at age eight, way before the internet. But every time I speak with someone 70 00:05:01,140 --> 00:05:07,880 who does what you do professionally, who writes code, who engineers software, who builds systems, 71 00:05:08,540 --> 00:05:13,840 I am reminded of, you know, and I think you say half tongue in cheek that it's egotistical, 72 00:05:13,840 --> 00:05:19,740 but that just surge of power that you are godlike in your command of this machine, 73 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,860 you know, and the machine that used to sit on our desks has now become, you know, the internet and 74 00:05:24,860 --> 00:05:31,880 a global system. I, I was, you know, I was talking to some friends and, and I got a, I got a humble 75 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:39,260 PR merged into Omarchy. I can't, DHH's new, you know, which I'm running. It's great. And again, 76 00:05:39,340 --> 00:05:45,220 not a, not a developer, you know, not a professional developer, but to do something like that at that 77 00:05:45,220 --> 00:05:54,000 level is just joy, you know? And so for me, a novice, a hobbyist to do that, much less, you know, 78 00:05:54,000 --> 00:06:00,940 someone who's, you know, it's that classic image of the entire global internet infrastructure in that one little module, you know. 79 00:06:00,980 --> 00:06:04,520 And so you got a thousand X chance to be that one module. 80 00:06:05,420 --> 00:06:13,400 Well, so with that, let's shift Matthias in to hole punch, Pear, Keat. 81 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:26,040 And talk us through the order of events that led to taking on what now is hole punch and the associated technologies. 82 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:28,620 Yeah, and I think actually it's funny. 83 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,200 We didn't discuss this before, but it's a very good lead up into that. 84 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:40,540 Because I think, so just from an experience of like being an open source developer, like you said, just, you know, you can command your machine, you can just produce code. 85 00:06:40,540 --> 00:06:46,240 the biggest hurdle i ever experienced and that as a person who was just like very curious and 86 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:50,500 just wanted to make a lot of things was actually like it was actually really easy to write code 87 00:06:50,500 --> 00:06:58,620 but making products and making applications and making services although not insanely hard had a 88 00:06:58,620 --> 00:07:03,700 whole different entry level of of of problems like it's kind of like i don't have i couldn't 89 00:07:03,700 --> 00:07:08,760 make a thousand products because every time i would be like i have to like set up some infrastructure 90 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:13,520 infrastructure and like if that infrastructure gets a lot of traction it might be a problem so 91 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,100 i wouldn't just like host files online because i would i did that once and i got like a big bill 92 00:07:17,100 --> 00:07:21,440 right like everybody just tried to do things to say nothing of ui ux and all the attendant 93 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:26,400 sort of capital p product sorts of challenges and i had and i had this experience with open source 94 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,820 which i think was very very interesting where like you would just write stuff and a lot of it would 95 00:07:30,820 --> 00:07:34,980 get like no traction so you provide something and you'll be like wow this is really good and get no 96 00:07:34,980 --> 00:07:38,180 traction and then that weird thing that you'd ever thought would really go anywhere would all 97 00:07:38,180 --> 00:07:44,380 so i can just take off and um that always stuck to me of like this like if you just produce you 98 00:07:44,380 --> 00:07:49,020 know a thousand things just like math right like one percent of them are popular that's like that's 99 00:07:49,020 --> 00:07:54,580 like a lot of them and um but i never got that stuff with like the products um and i'm not a 100 00:07:54,580 --> 00:07:57,440 very good product guy and you know like that's a lot of people are good at that so i need that i 101 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:05,680 need the numbers game right um and at the same time i got very um uh interested of the same reason 102 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,200 and just classic peer-to-peer back then. 103 00:08:08,420 --> 00:08:09,880 So one of the open source modules I wrote 104 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,040 was a BitTorrent client, 105 00:08:12,140 --> 00:08:15,060 which I'm sure a lot of your viewers are familiar with, 106 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,420 which is like, you know, protocol for exchanging 107 00:08:17,420 --> 00:08:19,600 files between each other. 108 00:08:19,660 --> 00:08:22,420 That was very, very big in the early 2000s. 109 00:08:22,780 --> 00:08:23,460 Highly resilient. 110 00:08:24,180 --> 00:08:24,900 Highly resilient. 111 00:08:25,540 --> 00:08:28,400 And this was like around the peak of that, 112 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,520 that I started to dabble in that. 113 00:08:31,580 --> 00:08:33,320 And it gave me that kick again of like, 114 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:34,860 I could just use my laptop 115 00:08:34,860 --> 00:08:36,620 and I could just write software 116 00:08:36,620 --> 00:08:37,880 and interact with this network. 117 00:08:38,020 --> 00:08:39,160 It was not easy, 118 00:08:39,260 --> 00:08:41,280 but it also wasn't insanely hard. 119 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:44,620 And I could just access 120 00:08:44,620 --> 00:08:46,720 this whole network of content out there 121 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,760 and I could make these crazy novel applications. 122 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:50,580 I actually, I think I made 123 00:08:50,580 --> 00:08:51,820 like a hundred different small things. 124 00:08:51,940 --> 00:08:52,960 So it was just like doing weird stuff 125 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:53,460 with this network. 126 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:55,400 And a lot of it took off, right? 127 00:08:55,700 --> 00:08:56,760 To get very popular. 128 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,540 And all of a sudden I had this connect up like, 129 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,200 wow, I can not only just write code, 130 00:09:02,260 --> 00:09:04,520 I can also actually provide content, 131 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,660 like add that second layer and once you have operational like code and you have content you 132 00:09:08,660 --> 00:09:12,860 basically have a product like you still have some ui and stuff but like at least now like the two 133 00:09:12,860 --> 00:09:18,840 biggest parts of that is solved and so i would do that i got very triggered by that i did a lot of 134 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:25,980 stuff and it always came back to me of like it's kind of sad that i can actually only make apps 135 00:09:25,980 --> 00:09:29,620 right now to interact with bittern and back then bittern was honestly just used for piracy 136 00:09:29,620 --> 00:09:32,260 so it's kind of like every app you did 137 00:09:32,260 --> 00:09:34,540 unless you wanted to play that game 138 00:09:34,540 --> 00:09:35,380 would never really go anywhere 139 00:09:35,380 --> 00:09:37,060 so it would be like a piracy app 140 00:09:37,060 --> 00:09:37,860 and I was always like wow 141 00:09:37,860 --> 00:09:42,200 well this has way more strength 142 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:43,100 in other spaces also 143 00:09:43,100 --> 00:09:44,320 so we can do this everything 144 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,540 so I got very very interested 145 00:09:46,540 --> 00:09:48,000 in trying to take these protocols 146 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,320 and apply them for like generalized networks 147 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:53,540 so like how can we 148 00:09:53,540 --> 00:09:55,080 instead of just exchanging big files 149 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:56,920 how can we do this to exchange any kind of data 150 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:58,540 and that's hyper core 151 00:09:58,540 --> 00:10:02,080 that's hyper core that's one of the things i wrote again like just one of those thousand 152 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:08,760 monitors just crank them out and um it basically set me down of this path of like okay we need to 153 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,220 do some r&d we need to figure some stuff out i need to talk to a bunch of again smart people 154 00:10:12,220 --> 00:10:19,040 the rubix cube people yeah right right right speed runners speed runners get a lot of uh 155 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:25,600 outside help um but like build up a series of technology technological capabilities so we can 156 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:27,500 start taking those kind of data networks, 157 00:10:28,300 --> 00:10:29,720 fuse them into apps and just have 158 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,080 basically a platform of series and modules 159 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:33,900 where we can make tons of them 160 00:10:33,900 --> 00:10:36,180 with no cost, with just like this iteration 161 00:10:36,180 --> 00:10:36,620 speed. 162 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,140 And by that, let me ask Matias, I take you to 163 00:10:40,140 --> 00:10:42,140 mean, and again, for those who 164 00:10:42,140 --> 00:10:44,380 may not be builders or developers 165 00:10:44,380 --> 00:10:46,420 themselves, as you noted, 166 00:10:46,420 --> 00:10:47,900 if you're going to spin up 167 00:10:47,900 --> 00:10:50,200 an open source module, some code, 168 00:10:50,300 --> 00:10:52,320 let's just sort of generalize this and put it 169 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:53,560 on GitHub, put it on the internet, 170 00:10:53,560 --> 00:10:56,780 Let, let, let, you know, others do what they will with it. 171 00:10:56,820 --> 00:10:57,540 That's one thing. 172 00:10:58,140 --> 00:11:06,000 To create a product, to spin up a product means, you know, potentially thousands of dollars in cost on AWS or some other provider. 173 00:11:06,100 --> 00:11:08,060 So the point is you've got all this infrastructure cost. 174 00:11:08,300 --> 00:11:14,980 You know, you, you don't, you don't build a home without a, without a foundation and you don't build a product without a foundation as well. 175 00:11:14,980 --> 00:11:30,180 And so if I hear you correctly, the itch to scratch was how do I remove that condition of the foundation, the infrastructure, and just rapidly deploy these useful, interesting applications? 176 00:11:30,380 --> 00:11:30,980 Is that fair? 177 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:31,880 Exactly. 178 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:38,240 And not even just useful, but also just like crazy, like just like lift field ideas and like just try to do something really different. 179 00:11:38,860 --> 00:11:39,080 Right. 180 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:54,760 Right. And it's very interesting what cost means also, I think, because for me, you know, it wasn't that, you know, paying $5 for something was expensive, but it's that thing of like, everybody knows this when they go to a website and they ask for $5 to do something. 181 00:11:54,760 --> 00:12:06,940 You're like, the transactional aspect of that is just immediately kills things because it's like this weird hurdle. And also like, it's $5 now. What if I have a thousand users? Maybe it's like $10,000, et cetera, et cetera. 182 00:12:06,940 --> 00:12:13,460 so getting that out of the way all of a sudden meant that we could start building these apps 183 00:12:13,460 --> 00:12:17,820 and not think about it and i think um that's what i was really really interested in from a 184 00:12:17,820 --> 00:12:23,320 technical point now i've been very very blessed in my career because it's actually a very very 185 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:28,320 hard pitch to go to somebody and say like hey let's build something where we take away the 186 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:33,400 transactional aspect of it but we allow people to build kind of like yeah and we monetize this how 187 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:37,180 right yeah which it was the same it's the same as you try to get funding for open source stuff 188 00:12:37,180 --> 00:12:43,420 back then at least it would be like yeah uh i don't understand and um so i was very lucky in 189 00:12:43,420 --> 00:12:48,500 my career to meet like the right people to help with that like aka tether and and uh and the 190 00:12:48,500 --> 00:12:52,820 crowd there who was big mind shares of that vision because there's tons of ways to to monetize these 191 00:12:52,820 --> 00:13:00,180 things but like not in a traditional aspect like that um so like basically build out the technology 192 00:13:00,180 --> 00:13:05,440 build a platform try to make this again comprehensible for normal people as you can see 193 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:10,420 i'm i get very excited talking about it and like that's great technical aspects but like um 194 00:13:10,420 --> 00:13:16,100 turn it into something like normal people can build on and then um just have people build build 195 00:13:16,100 --> 00:13:22,060 build build and like just try out a thousand things i think one of the biggest sparks for 196 00:13:22,060 --> 00:13:26,820 somebody trying to do like an iteration phase of like building products and building things 197 00:13:26,820 --> 00:13:31,800 is like you get that one first user right and you get the two users and you get the 10 users 198 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:38,860 and like that interaction thing is just motivating like anything else uh and that's that's what 199 00:13:38,860 --> 00:13:43,420 building these things is all about especially for other people so that's awesome it's been that's 200 00:13:43,420 --> 00:13:47,080 basically what we're trying to do at whole punch just yeah yeah and it's early you're you're now 201 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:51,460 three years in is that right matthias yeah three or four years and we've been working on the 202 00:13:51,460 --> 00:13:54,680 technology for longer because it's just been, you know, crazy. 203 00:13:55,780 --> 00:14:02,100 Sure. And I would imagine, as you noted, there are some strata, some layers that have been 204 00:14:02,100 --> 00:14:06,820 building over time. Well, let me ask this. If we zoom out, and I don't want to map this on to your 205 00:14:06,820 --> 00:14:12,220 motivations, but I do want to ask. I mean, we all know centralized platforms, Meta, Google X, 206 00:14:12,220 --> 00:14:18,020 they dominate our lives, our digital lives. They control data. They censor content at will. And 207 00:14:18,020 --> 00:14:20,820 ultimately, I would argue they're eroding user sovereignty. 208 00:14:21,100 --> 00:14:27,680 I mean, I'm sure you saw that Google has now announced that even to sideload an application 209 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:34,780 on Android, you must, you know, to basically play on Android, you must KYC as a developer. 210 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:44,800 And so my question is, be it the origin or now, sort of what fundamental flaws in this 211 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:50,600 gatekeeper walled garden model, are you targeting with hole punches, 212 00:14:50,900 --> 00:14:53,160 P2P tech? And, you know, 213 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:57,080 how do they pave the way for a more trustless decentralized internet? 214 00:14:57,260 --> 00:14:59,600 Big questions, but I think they're important ones. 215 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:01,000 I think it's super true. 216 00:15:01,060 --> 00:15:03,040 And I think also there's like multiple aspects of that. 217 00:15:03,140 --> 00:15:07,380 Like obviously there's like an aspect that's technology and like how we can 218 00:15:07,380 --> 00:15:09,760 make the technology that allows people to do this, 219 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:11,040 which is basically what I talked about. 220 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,280 There's obviously also a non-technical side of this, 221 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:18,860 which is like just and i actually wonder about this a lot myself like how did we let it get to 222 00:15:18,860 --> 00:15:25,120 this um i feel like absolutely i feel like we had a obviously a huge revolution with with mobile 223 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:37,195 devices yes and yet and yet we pay for them and yet somehow we still don really own them don own them absolutely um and we just somehow accept that uh because you know it almost a little bit 224 00:15:37,195 --> 00:15:42,095 too late on that i mean we still need to fight back but but we're in a we're in a like we're 225 00:15:42,095 --> 00:15:47,135 very deep in that thing now and um and it's a disaster and we need to we need to think of ways 226 00:15:47,135 --> 00:15:50,835 to to to get out of that and like obviously peer-to-peer tech is part of that but it's 227 00:15:50,835 --> 00:15:55,955 also like just a pgp mentality outside that is a part of it you mentioned like omar key earlier 228 00:15:55,955 --> 00:15:59,875 like that kind of like movement on desktop computers about owning hardware i think that's 229 00:15:59,875 --> 00:16:04,035 really important i wish we can get like a and it's going to happen like a similar kind of 230 00:16:04,035 --> 00:16:07,395 revolution going on on mobile devices this will be the year of the linux desktop 231 00:16:07,395 --> 00:16:14,335 yeah i mean like it's it's pretty good but um at least like you know i'm still somewhat 232 00:16:14,335 --> 00:16:18,375 concerned and surprised that i can still install stuff in my you know i have a macbook right i 233 00:16:18,375 --> 00:16:22,435 I feel like because the way things are going on mobile devices, they're just locking it down more and more. 234 00:16:22,575 --> 00:16:22,895 Absolutely. 235 00:16:23,415 --> 00:16:27,695 And you have to assume it's coming, right, for most devices. 236 00:16:28,135 --> 00:16:32,575 I think the only reason it's not here is because they only care about the market share on phones because it's like 90%, right? 237 00:16:33,075 --> 00:16:33,435 Absolutely. 238 00:16:33,915 --> 00:16:35,775 So that concerns me a lot. 239 00:16:35,815 --> 00:16:39,975 And that's something also we're concerned about internally and also like building up alternatives for. 240 00:16:39,975 --> 00:16:44,255 And again, technology is going to be a big part of that, but it's not the end-all solution. 241 00:16:44,795 --> 00:16:44,835 Right. 242 00:16:44,835 --> 00:16:53,655 And so with that, do you mean to say, would Whole Punch and partners take on awareness education? 243 00:16:53,935 --> 00:16:56,715 Like, does the mission expand to include that? 244 00:16:56,875 --> 00:17:00,615 Or are you just rightly saying that absolutely that is necessary? 245 00:17:01,815 --> 00:17:04,075 I mean, we are always trying to look ahead and see what's coming. 246 00:17:04,355 --> 00:17:07,995 And like also both are like, should we make more hardware or should we do other stuff? 247 00:17:07,995 --> 00:17:08,435 Right. 248 00:17:08,435 --> 00:17:08,795 Right. 249 00:17:09,355 --> 00:17:15,715 And because it's just from a personal point of view, it frustrates me dearly that the phone is the ultimate device. 250 00:17:16,255 --> 00:17:16,455 Yes. 251 00:17:16,955 --> 00:17:17,695 I have it. 252 00:17:17,775 --> 00:17:18,335 It has a radio. 253 00:17:18,455 --> 00:17:19,035 It's always connected. 254 00:17:19,255 --> 00:17:21,795 Yet I can't run software in the background on my phone. 255 00:17:22,475 --> 00:17:28,855 It's the ultimate peer-to-peer device, but it's also the hardest one to develop for because of restrictions that is forced upon me. 256 00:17:29,775 --> 00:17:37,035 So it's something we're continuously thinking about and trying to do stuff for and also both for end users. 257 00:17:37,035 --> 00:17:46,795 I think right now it's interesting you mentioned, again, like Omarki, because I don't even know, even as a slightly technical person, as a technical person, I don't even know. 258 00:17:46,955 --> 00:17:49,195 It's like my options on phones right now is very limited. 259 00:17:49,395 --> 00:17:54,935 I can maybe try to flash an Android device, but it's tough, right? 260 00:17:55,595 --> 00:17:55,735 Yeah. 261 00:17:56,015 --> 00:18:02,275 So even for us, people who are willing to invest it, it's too hard and we need to do more stuff to make it easier. 262 00:18:02,275 --> 00:18:19,895 Now, if we had phones that were more permissive and stuff like that, you still need peer-to-peer to deliver software because, again, any kind of centralized store is going to go through the same kind of process that everything else centralized goes through with restrictions and liabilities and et cetera, et cetera. 263 00:18:20,135 --> 00:18:23,655 So it's absolutely cornerstone technology-wise that these things are peer-to-peer. 264 00:18:24,035 --> 00:18:26,855 But, again, there's a hardware aspect here that's really important also. 265 00:18:27,335 --> 00:18:28,095 Yes, yes. 266 00:18:28,095 --> 00:18:38,915 I mean, you know, those who know me are probably ready for me to shut up about my move from 2007, my first iPhone, to two months ago, a Pixel running Graphene OS. 267 00:18:39,175 --> 00:18:40,515 You know, I won't stop talking about it. 268 00:18:40,895 --> 00:18:42,635 And it is a lift. 269 00:18:42,755 --> 00:18:46,595 I mean, you know, for someone technical, it is tricky. 270 00:18:46,735 --> 00:18:52,535 But to your point, I had forgotten that, you know, I mean, I say this half joking. 271 00:18:52,755 --> 00:18:54,835 I had almost forgotten this is a computer. 272 00:18:54,835 --> 00:18:57,855 And I ought to be able to run background processes. 273 00:18:57,855 --> 00:19:04,075 It will, you know, and again, for those non-nerds, you know, just means run the code that I want the way I want. 274 00:19:04,615 --> 00:19:14,535 And to open that, to unlock that, you know, and I've been using Keats since shortly after launch, you know, incredibly effective. 275 00:19:14,715 --> 00:19:18,055 I mean, I swapped out for Zoom calls some time ago. 276 00:19:18,055 --> 00:19:29,755 And so, you know, now, I guess the point is the performance of that and any application can be throttled, can be hindered by Android, iOS. 277 00:19:31,035 --> 00:19:47,695 And I think I appreciate, tell me if you disagree, that presumably that began in the interest of having or delivering a better experience to the consumers so that you don't sort of, you know, bork your own device and have a bad experience. 278 00:19:47,695 --> 00:19:50,315 But ultimately, it has just become more and more restrictive. 279 00:19:50,555 --> 00:19:52,755 And so, well, let me ask this then. 280 00:19:52,875 --> 00:19:55,275 So let's zoom in a bit. 281 00:19:56,495 --> 00:20:08,995 The pair runtime, this P2P, peer-to-peer architecture, how does it affect assumptions about trust as compared to centralized cloud platforms? 282 00:20:08,995 --> 00:20:15,095 And so, again, for those who just know, you know, they access a website, they download or run an application. 283 00:20:15,095 --> 00:20:17,595 I think most of us know there's something back there somewhere. 284 00:20:18,295 --> 00:20:21,335 And as the saying goes, the cloud is just someone else's computer. 285 00:20:21,935 --> 00:20:24,075 And so the operative question these days is whose. 286 00:20:25,215 --> 00:20:35,575 So help us understand sort of fundamentally the shift from what ages ago was client server and now it's client cloud, you know, to peer-to-peer. 287 00:20:35,655 --> 00:20:36,575 What does that really mean? 288 00:20:37,295 --> 00:20:38,215 Yes, very good question. 289 00:20:38,355 --> 00:20:39,635 And obviously really important. 290 00:20:39,635 --> 00:20:44,855 I think it's, like you said, it's about just following the journey, right? 291 00:20:44,855 --> 00:20:49,115 like a lot of applications today, especially on desktop, 292 00:20:49,335 --> 00:20:51,615 I'll talk about desktop because it's a little bit easier to understand, I think. 293 00:20:51,755 --> 00:20:53,215 But it's the same on mobile. 294 00:20:54,275 --> 00:20:56,255 You open a web browser, you type something in. 295 00:20:56,435 --> 00:20:58,735 It's actually the decentralization starts immediately there 296 00:20:58,735 --> 00:21:01,075 because you type in some sort of name. 297 00:21:01,435 --> 00:21:02,815 So you go to google.com or something. 298 00:21:03,595 --> 00:21:07,275 So there's like a centralized registry where, you know, 299 00:21:07,455 --> 00:21:09,915 that gets resolved into some series of servers. 300 00:21:10,795 --> 00:21:14,595 And as I remember from my working back with like BitTorrent back then, 301 00:21:14,595 --> 00:21:18,135 And that's how they tried to take down the Torrent networks first. 302 00:21:18,375 --> 00:21:18,775 Absolutely. 303 00:21:19,455 --> 00:21:20,295 Let's get them delisted. 304 00:21:20,415 --> 00:21:21,095 Let's get them delisted. 305 00:21:21,195 --> 00:21:21,915 And it was very effective. 306 00:21:22,815 --> 00:21:29,055 Other things would pop up, but it's like first point of attack for both censorship and also just like you don't really have any control. 307 00:21:30,975 --> 00:21:36,215 Now, the next problem is like if you connect to something there, like where is that stuff hosted? 308 00:21:36,215 --> 00:21:38,375 And like you said, nobody hosts anything anymore. 309 00:21:38,515 --> 00:21:39,775 It's all like big data centers. 310 00:21:39,775 --> 00:21:47,455 and those data centers are often like concentrated and big data centers but also like in in in 311 00:21:47,455 --> 00:21:51,975 jurisdictions you might not have any rights in so i think about this a lot i'm a person from a 312 00:21:51,975 --> 00:21:59,795 small country i'm from denmark with five million people um the amount of foreign data centers i 313 00:21:59,795 --> 00:22:07,275 use to do like my normal things um online is is crazy and and as a small nation that has no army 314 00:22:07,275 --> 00:22:12,835 and stuff like that like we basically have when at the end of the day very few rights as citizens 315 00:22:12,835 --> 00:22:20,395 because like we're in the system of like centralization so when you access government 316 00:22:20,395 --> 00:22:25,495 services and stuff like that in a small country like it's very often it's interesting to think 317 00:22:25,495 --> 00:22:30,215 about like what does that actually mean it's like it's kind of crazy we take all our sensitive stuff 318 00:22:30,215 --> 00:22:35,935 and we put it somewhere else and right is it viable to move those things back hard to say 319 00:22:35,935 --> 00:22:37,755 because it's like that infrastructure doesn't exist. 320 00:22:38,095 --> 00:22:39,055 But is it Denmark? 321 00:22:39,595 --> 00:22:40,215 Sorry, Matthias. 322 00:22:40,275 --> 00:22:42,335 Is it Denmark, by the way, that is in this process 323 00:22:42,335 --> 00:22:45,475 or at least stating that they intend to move away from Microsoft, 324 00:22:45,775 --> 00:22:46,755 Microsoft Cloud Services? 325 00:22:46,875 --> 00:22:48,615 They're trying to repatriate, to your point? 326 00:22:49,155 --> 00:22:51,435 Yeah, and they've been trying to do that for many years. 327 00:22:51,675 --> 00:22:54,375 And like, because it's like, it's just very, very hard 328 00:22:54,375 --> 00:22:56,495 because of the scale of economics, right? 329 00:22:56,515 --> 00:23:00,635 It's like, can you make a data center yourself as a small country? 330 00:23:00,715 --> 00:23:04,795 Do you have that expertise when you're a few million people? 331 00:23:04,795 --> 00:23:11,435 maybe you get lucky and you do maybe you don't but the point i'm trying to get is like this is 332 00:23:11,435 --> 00:23:17,715 like a problem we've created for ourselves because basically we have the technology to to make all 333 00:23:17,715 --> 00:23:23,635 this stuff self-hosted through p2p networks through other ways of like saying well instead 334 00:23:23,635 --> 00:23:27,915 of caring where the data lives let's just care about how we authenticate the data so like like 335 00:23:27,915 --> 00:23:33,275 if i go to a website i don't think i really care about it's like that the person i'm getting the 336 00:23:33,275 --> 00:23:35,455 data from is like cryptographically signed this data. 337 00:23:35,515 --> 00:23:38,635 So I can like put to normal people that I can verify that this data is correct. 338 00:23:39,015 --> 00:23:39,315 Yes. 339 00:23:39,655 --> 00:23:43,055 That I can verify that it's encrypted, like that, you know, there's nobody listening to 340 00:23:43,055 --> 00:23:45,955 it, but where it's hosted and stuff like that is really, really not important. 341 00:23:46,115 --> 00:23:48,695 It's just kind of like this arbitrary constraint we put for ourselves. 342 00:23:48,995 --> 00:23:55,555 And I think, and I would just inject one more thing, which is, you know, speaking of Switzerland 343 00:23:55,555 --> 00:23:59,595 and I'm a, I'm a big advocate of and customer Proton. 344 00:23:59,595 --> 00:24:10,395 I know that they are considering moving their hosting, their systems rather, out of Switzerland for concerns over data privacy protections. 345 00:24:11,315 --> 00:24:23,055 And so, you know, I think it might, if you would, in this sort of speak to how Pair, how P2P, you know, kind of obviates or addresses to your point the question of jurisdiction. 346 00:24:23,055 --> 00:24:32,855 And I think for those, again, who may not be following this as closely, it's gone beyond, you know, what device do I run? 347 00:24:32,975 --> 00:24:34,475 What app store do I use? 348 00:24:34,675 --> 00:24:45,315 What reliable sort of back end is powering the application to in what jurisdiction does my data sit at rest? 349 00:24:45,535 --> 00:24:49,955 And what protections or lack thereof do I enjoy as a result? 350 00:24:49,955 --> 00:24:53,255 You know, all back to trust, all back to who can I trust? 351 00:24:53,375 --> 00:24:57,555 And so, you know, let's go to sort of P2P tackling all these things. 352 00:24:58,055 --> 00:25:02,975 So P2P actually is kind of like, this is what I always tell people, it's just like, it's actually just the simplest way of doing it. 353 00:25:03,055 --> 00:25:07,115 So instead of you have a third party having your data, I have my data, you have your data. 354 00:25:07,235 --> 00:25:08,935 And when we're talking to each other, we're just talking directly. 355 00:25:09,335 --> 00:25:12,535 You can make more complicated networks like that, adding more people and stuff. 356 00:25:12,595 --> 00:25:14,015 But like at the end of the day, that's what it's about. 357 00:25:14,515 --> 00:25:16,975 I'm tempted to make the Protestant versus Catholic. 358 00:25:16,975 --> 00:25:22,435 you know there's an there's an intermediary or you're talking direct so yeah i'm gonna i'll get 359 00:25:22,435 --> 00:25:27,795 in trouble for that one but maybe both are somewhat centralized through the big guy upstairs but but 360 00:25:27,795 --> 00:25:34,635 but uh touche touche but uh but um yeah um and i find peer to peer very interesting in that because 361 00:25:34,635 --> 00:25:40,215 it's kind of like this attack by the masses where it's like every jurisdiction i want so it's no 362 00:25:40,215 --> 00:25:45,875 jurisdiction it's like right data is everywhere and nowhere i always say um and that obviously 363 00:25:45,875 --> 00:25:50,355 creates a bunch of challenges but that's what we're trying to solve with our um technology of 364 00:25:50,355 --> 00:25:53,735 like that shouldn't never bubble up to the user just kind of like i always say it's kind of like 365 00:25:53,735 --> 00:25:57,815 when you make a centralized network you don't really as a developer think about like things 366 00:25:57,815 --> 00:26:02,935 like packet drop that's like the technology handles that kind of like pretty pure you don't 367 00:26:02,935 --> 00:26:06,935 really think about where data is the technology handles that right um but it gives you this 368 00:26:06,935 --> 00:26:11,875 much stronger foundation where it's just the people on and their devices and their hard drives 369 00:26:11,875 --> 00:26:12,515 in their networks. 370 00:26:13,255 --> 00:26:14,115 Obviously, you can have, 371 00:26:14,395 --> 00:26:15,135 you know, if the government 372 00:26:15,135 --> 00:26:17,775 in Denmark wanted to run some nodes 373 00:26:17,775 --> 00:26:18,575 to help, they would just 374 00:26:18,575 --> 00:26:19,555 spin up some computers. 375 00:26:19,755 --> 00:26:20,875 Like, I have my computer. 376 00:26:21,055 --> 00:26:22,015 It's as simple as that. 377 00:26:22,175 --> 00:26:23,395 Or you can buy something. 378 00:26:24,495 --> 00:26:25,395 And then all of a sudden, 379 00:26:25,455 --> 00:26:26,275 you can have these networks 380 00:26:26,275 --> 00:26:27,355 where you can have it 381 00:26:27,355 --> 00:26:28,355 be as contained as possible. 382 00:26:28,435 --> 00:26:28,875 You can have it be 383 00:26:28,875 --> 00:26:29,855 as decentralized as possible. 384 00:26:29,915 --> 00:26:30,795 And you have all the options. 385 00:26:31,035 --> 00:26:31,715 And like you said earlier, 386 00:26:31,715 --> 00:26:32,735 you have all the data 387 00:26:32,735 --> 00:26:33,575 software into yourself. 388 00:26:33,835 --> 00:26:34,535 So you don't have to give 389 00:26:34,535 --> 00:26:35,175 your data away. 390 00:26:35,335 --> 00:26:36,255 You can just control it. 391 00:26:36,755 --> 00:26:38,655 And the cost is spread out 392 00:26:38,655 --> 00:26:39,475 between the peers 393 00:26:39,475 --> 00:26:39,995 and the network, 394 00:26:40,175 --> 00:26:40,775 which that means 395 00:26:40,775 --> 00:26:41,475 that it's basically 396 00:26:41,475 --> 00:26:47,295 like basically free because we just spread it out um so it's like for these kind of things it's just 397 00:26:47,295 --> 00:26:52,395 strong upsides obviously more technological technologically advanced but like 398 00:26:52,395 --> 00:26:57,235 and that's that's interesting and it's it's very interesting to reflect on because i've been 399 00:26:57,235 --> 00:27:03,035 talking about this for yeah 15 years now and there was a long period in time in the early 2000s where 400 00:27:03,035 --> 00:27:09,115 this was like now we're moving to the cloud uh kind of thing and now in the last obviously the 401 00:27:09,115 --> 00:27:12,575 last five years, that's been a big move towards like, oh, boy. 402 00:27:13,115 --> 00:27:13,395 Oops. 403 00:27:13,935 --> 00:27:14,335 Yeah. 404 00:27:15,015 --> 00:27:17,515 Maybe that wasn't the best idea for various reasons. 405 00:27:17,915 --> 00:27:24,375 And especially in Europe now also like with, you know, the security aspects and that, tons 406 00:27:24,375 --> 00:27:25,035 of problems with that. 407 00:27:25,295 --> 00:27:29,615 So it's an interesting time to be alive and it's a very good time for people to be alive. 408 00:27:30,335 --> 00:27:30,735 Yes. 409 00:27:30,915 --> 00:27:31,415 Well said. 410 00:27:31,415 --> 00:27:36,555 I mean, I think to the point you just raised, whether it's the Online Safety Act in the 411 00:27:36,555 --> 00:27:46,455 UK, which, you know, I, my heart goes out to those in the UK dealing with the absolute 412 00:27:46,455 --> 00:27:52,355 speed run to dystopia that the UK government is taking you through. 413 00:27:52,815 --> 00:28:00,395 To the broader EU, you know, every day we wake up and there is a new challenge, whether 414 00:28:00,395 --> 00:28:06,015 it is, you know, signal, whether it is VPNs. 415 00:28:06,015 --> 00:28:16,755 And so this onslaught of bureaucrats who will hold up safety as the almighty goal, but are 416 00:28:16,755 --> 00:28:21,635 eroding the security and the privacy and the integrity of these technologies. 417 00:28:22,295 --> 00:28:23,695 Let me ask you this. 418 00:28:25,135 --> 00:28:28,535 Has anyone come knocking? 419 00:28:28,535 --> 00:28:46,215 Like, have you had challenges or have you gotten sort of, you know, people telegraphing to you that, no, no, no, no, no, you know, to remove the intermediary, to remove the backend, to remove the cloud service means we can't, you know, serve you a warrant and demand data. 420 00:28:46,315 --> 00:28:48,015 So what does that look like in your world? 421 00:28:48,015 --> 00:29:10,935 Yeah, it's a good question, right? And I think, as with any kind of other bureaucratic systems, the people running those bureaucratic systems are very far removed from the reality of normal people. And I'm very concerned about just the general direction of this and this war on encryption is the only way I can kind of fix it. 422 00:29:10,935 --> 00:29:11,595 Yeah, good way to summarize. 423 00:29:12,295 --> 00:29:16,195 Which is, even as a math person, it's like, you know. 424 00:29:16,475 --> 00:29:17,715 A war on math, right? 425 00:29:17,715 --> 00:29:22,375 like who wins that one um it's very very concerning and it's also very very short-sighted 426 00:29:22,375 --> 00:29:29,015 just from a society point of view yes and um i think i think regulators are like over focused on 427 00:29:29,015 --> 00:29:33,735 some concerns and i'm not thinking about the big picture and like nothing about things like basic 428 00:29:33,735 --> 00:29:40,955 liberties of people and like it it it it frustrates me a lot even when you just think about i'm a 429 00:29:40,955 --> 00:29:46,195 history buff and like when i think about just like a couple hundred years ago and with all the lack 430 00:29:46,195 --> 00:29:49,995 of liberties they also were back then but like when you know we think about the founding of nations 431 00:29:49,995 --> 00:29:55,735 and like how you write in like certain rights and constitutions and like i remember reading in the 432 00:29:55,735 --> 00:30:00,475 danish constitution there's a big section about um male privacy right like the privacy of male 433 00:30:00,475 --> 00:30:05,895 and i'm like how that's very important to them yes and then today they're like well let's read 434 00:30:05,895 --> 00:30:11,255 all the messages absolutely how quickly we forget how quickly we forget even though it's like clearly 435 00:30:11,255 --> 00:30:16,415 something that's you know on everybody's mind so so it's something we have to all be thinking about 436 00:30:16,415 --> 00:30:19,955 like i said also before it's not just a technological battle it's something we have to also 437 00:30:19,955 --> 00:30:24,615 take up on the political point of view certainly we're definitely doing our part and the 438 00:30:24,615 --> 00:30:31,335 technological part uh and um i don't know it's hard to say what's gonna rescue europe in this 439 00:30:31,335 --> 00:30:34,835 way i think they're just on a very very bad course luckily there's a lot of places in the 440 00:30:34,835 --> 00:30:40,055 world that's thinking more clearly but like uh yes it's a tough tough climate for that we're doing 441 00:30:40,055 --> 00:31:07,930 our part by like making peer like peer is basically uncensorable in this aspect because again like it a million bajillion devices so so like we don want to have any control over anything yes but yeah and i and i know this is sticky uh but i presume then you know i thinking of of Durov and Telegram and other conversations you know his interviews recently and these things have bubbled up 442 00:31:07,930 --> 00:31:15,770 You know, as some have said, it's the once upon a time Google adage, don't be evil to can't be evil. 443 00:31:15,770 --> 00:31:26,910 And so we must, in order to preserve these freedoms, these liberties, make it impossible to conduct mass surveillance. 444 00:31:27,370 --> 00:31:31,110 And there are those who will cry, what about the children? 445 00:31:31,210 --> 00:31:31,750 I'm a father. 446 00:31:32,010 --> 00:31:33,190 That's not lost on me. 447 00:31:34,090 --> 00:31:35,550 But I would say get a warrant. 448 00:31:35,690 --> 00:31:37,730 So that's my little monologue on this. 449 00:31:37,730 --> 00:31:43,510 But, well, you talked to a couple of times, which I think is very important, Matthias, the bigger picture. 450 00:31:43,510 --> 00:31:55,110 So what are the biggest cultural and technical in the sense of sort of end-user adoption hurdles to widespread uptake of peer-to-peer? 451 00:31:55,790 --> 00:31:57,150 You know, what do you hear? 452 00:31:57,250 --> 00:31:59,890 What do you run up against day in and day out? 453 00:32:00,850 --> 00:32:01,450 That's a great question. 454 00:32:01,570 --> 00:32:10,310 I think actually, like I said, it's like the time is pretty good for that because it's something that's on everybody's mind, both the security aspects. 455 00:32:10,310 --> 00:32:11,510 We had that recently in Europe. 456 00:32:11,510 --> 00:32:15,650 There was a power outage in Spain and France. 457 00:32:15,910 --> 00:32:24,450 And I think even though it was like just for half a day, we had some colleagues there and they were telling me how quickly things roll into anarchy when basic services stop working. 458 00:32:24,610 --> 00:32:34,510 So like immediately they were like, oh, we need to add this thing to the P2P network so we can run it in these scenarios and stuff like that to ensure that that's very, very important. 459 00:32:34,650 --> 00:32:38,010 So I think people are waking up to these things because it's becoming reality really fast. 460 00:32:38,010 --> 00:32:45,210 there's also um just a way from a consumer's point of view the internet has evolved like you 461 00:32:45,210 --> 00:32:49,230 know i'm not personally like necessarily a big fan of this but you know how like we have a big 462 00:32:49,230 --> 00:32:54,690 influencer economy now and stuff like that um i think one thing people learn over and over and 463 00:32:54,690 --> 00:32:59,710 over again it's kind of like you can go to an essentialized platform and you can have a bajillion 464 00:32:59,710 --> 00:33:04,410 followers and you can be very popular as soon as that platform decides to shut you off for whatever 465 00:33:04,410 --> 00:33:08,070 reason maybe you did something wrong maybe you didn't you'll understand that you actually have 466 00:33:08,070 --> 00:33:14,610 nothing you're just like you're a user in a database yes and very quickly you get radicalized 467 00:33:14,610 --> 00:33:19,330 on like data sovereignty and like yes ownership what's going to see more and more of that it's 468 00:33:19,330 --> 00:33:23,110 going to be more and more awareness being spread like that about like you actually as a content 469 00:33:23,110 --> 00:33:28,270 creator you have to own your own content you have to own your own rights um from users point of view 470 00:33:28,270 --> 00:33:32,890 it's the same thing it's kind of like that you can have just data sovereignty i have a conversation 471 00:33:32,890 --> 00:33:37,130 with you and we can do a dm and we know just from a technological point of view that this is like 472 00:33:37,130 --> 00:33:41,890 just between us that's really really important um i think one of the biggest hurdles is just like 473 00:33:41,890 --> 00:33:46,250 like i said like there's obviously complexity in that and like uh you know this stuff has to be 474 00:33:46,250 --> 00:33:51,670 100 we found out i think just from our experience and like a lot of our battle scars it's like you 475 00:33:51,670 --> 00:33:57,110 can get a technology like 99 and you feel pretty good but that one more percent can really hurt 476 00:33:57,110 --> 00:34:03,030 you in terms of that yes option so so that's really really important um and um luckily we're 477 00:34:03,030 --> 00:34:08,170 racing really fast towards that so so i think it's kind of like and it's also interesting because 478 00:34:08,170 --> 00:34:12,030 we're just as technological people we're like you know obviously proud of what we're building and 479 00:34:12,030 --> 00:34:15,150 peer-to-peer but at the end of the day people don't care because they shouldn't care they just 480 00:34:15,150 --> 00:34:20,590 want apps that work they want apps that work in any scenario if the internet turns off if there's 481 00:34:20,590 --> 00:34:25,890 a billion users if we go bankrupt it should still work and that's just the kind of products we're 482 00:34:25,890 --> 00:34:31,570 trying to build so kind of like our first thought is always like oh let's put like this crazy progress 483 00:34:31,570 --> 00:34:35,510 bar with all the peers on there and we're like no it's just like just just be simple because that's 484 00:34:35,510 --> 00:34:41,050 what people want um and i and that's that's what drives adoption like just good apps and stuff so 485 00:34:41,050 --> 00:34:47,130 so so i think it's like time is on our side and i think a lot of people are waking up to it um 486 00:34:47,130 --> 00:34:53,530 if i just think about also just as an analogy uh with you know bitcoin how that used to also be 487 00:34:53,530 --> 00:34:55,390 very niche 488 00:34:55,390 --> 00:34:55,970 in terms of 489 00:34:55,970 --> 00:34:57,010 where people care 490 00:34:57,010 --> 00:34:57,870 and now it's something 491 00:34:57,870 --> 00:34:59,230 it went through 492 00:34:59,230 --> 00:34:59,830 like a phase of being 493 00:34:59,830 --> 00:35:00,270 very niche 494 00:35:00,270 --> 00:35:00,790 and then like 495 00:35:00,790 --> 00:35:01,990 let's get rich really fast 496 00:35:01,990 --> 00:35:03,150 and now it's something 497 00:35:03,150 --> 00:35:04,290 I hear about 498 00:35:04,290 --> 00:35:05,390 in terms of just like 499 00:35:05,390 --> 00:35:07,650 sound financial instrument 500 00:35:07,650 --> 00:35:08,410 in terms of like 501 00:35:08,410 --> 00:35:10,030 combating the things 502 00:35:10,030 --> 00:35:10,930 the times we live in 503 00:35:10,930 --> 00:35:11,510 in terms of like 504 00:35:11,510 --> 00:35:11,810 yes 505 00:35:11,810 --> 00:35:13,030 and tackling inflation 506 00:35:13,030 --> 00:35:13,390 yeah 507 00:35:13,390 --> 00:35:14,290 tackling inflation 508 00:35:14,290 --> 00:35:14,510 and stuff 509 00:35:14,510 --> 00:35:15,170 like kind of like 510 00:35:15,170 --> 00:35:16,650 this sort of evolution 511 00:35:16,650 --> 00:35:17,610 and for me 512 00:35:17,610 --> 00:35:18,830 it's the same way 513 00:35:18,830 --> 00:35:19,750 people go through 514 00:35:19,750 --> 00:35:20,090 it's like 515 00:35:20,090 --> 00:35:20,870 it was like 516 00:35:20,870 --> 00:35:22,750 I can get this content 517 00:35:22,750 --> 00:35:29,290 let me get this content piracy to like let's make free networks that scale really fast to be like 518 00:35:29,290 --> 00:35:33,050 no i just want to have stable communications with everybody and everything else is kind of like has 519 00:35:33,050 --> 00:35:37,910 allergies because of reasons or i get censored and that's that last stage we need to get right 520 00:35:37,910 --> 00:35:42,530 where we're moving really fast towards and with that i mean i might imagine as you've described 521 00:35:42,530 --> 00:35:50,090 that matthias that you see hole punches roll as and i mean this i think in the in the way that you 522 00:35:50,090 --> 00:35:54,490 do pipes and plumbing, not, not sexy because it shouldn't be, because it doesn't need to be, 523 00:35:54,550 --> 00:36:00,930 because it needs to just work like my plumbing works. How far, how far, how close to the end user 524 00:36:00,930 --> 00:36:09,490 do you need to be, want to be? I mean, is Keet almost a proof of concept? Do you foresee a, 525 00:36:09,490 --> 00:36:13,310 you know, sort of a portfolio of apps? Like where do you guys sort of sit? 526 00:36:14,850 --> 00:36:18,610 Yeah, it's interesting. Like we originally, so like you said, we're an infrastructure company, 527 00:36:18,610 --> 00:36:20,970 but also infrastructure by itself. 528 00:36:21,090 --> 00:36:22,190 That's kind of like one of my critiques 529 00:36:22,190 --> 00:36:23,310 about a lot of blockchain projects. 530 00:36:23,410 --> 00:36:24,390 It will be like, here's some infrastructure, 531 00:36:24,670 --> 00:36:25,790 but it's kind of like, you know, 532 00:36:25,830 --> 00:36:27,350 you want to do something else. 533 00:36:28,010 --> 00:36:29,490 We wanted to make an app on top 534 00:36:29,490 --> 00:36:32,070 because A, communications is insanely important. 535 00:36:32,330 --> 00:36:33,990 We want to put our mark in that. 536 00:36:34,550 --> 00:36:36,690 And also we want to make the hottest app up front 537 00:36:36,690 --> 00:36:38,850 so that when the hottest app works, 538 00:36:39,230 --> 00:36:40,150 we know everything works. 539 00:36:40,310 --> 00:36:41,250 And actually it's kind of funny 540 00:36:41,250 --> 00:36:43,270 because people think about a chat app as like, 541 00:36:43,310 --> 00:36:45,750 oh, it's just some messages and a box. 542 00:36:46,050 --> 00:36:47,050 But if you start thinking about it, 543 00:36:47,050 --> 00:36:52,590 like a chat app is like it's both like a multi-user system where tons of chaos comes in it's also like 544 00:36:52,590 --> 00:36:57,130 a file sharing network where you can add files and pictures it's also like crazy connectivity 545 00:36:57,130 --> 00:37:01,310 people have it in their phone and stuff it's like it's actually all the hard problems at once and 546 00:37:01,310 --> 00:37:07,990 it's stress tests everything so it's kind of like so far it was like when the chat app is perfected 547 00:37:07,990 --> 00:37:12,330 everything else is perfected because it's all the same components so we took down that challenge 548 00:37:12,330 --> 00:37:19,370 immediately and honestly we're still like there's still stuff to figure out but like 549 00:37:20,170 --> 00:37:26,790 we're very very big believers in like freedom of communication and stuff so we're gonna keep 550 00:37:26,790 --> 00:37:31,650 having that be our flagship i use kit all the time to to talk to just people on the p2p network 551 00:37:31,650 --> 00:37:36,170 it's actually it's been a very interesting journey just also from a technological point of view 552 00:37:36,170 --> 00:37:41,190 because you learn some of the interesting parts of a p2p app which is like i don't know who i'm 553 00:37:41,190 --> 00:37:46,090 talking to half of the time because i'm just talking to random users um the users have these 554 00:37:46,090 --> 00:37:51,090 random names because there's no phone numbers or things like that so it's kind of like you learn how 555 00:37:51,090 --> 00:37:56,250 to when you don't have any metadata about people it actually frames the conversation differently 556 00:37:56,250 --> 00:38:02,630 um so so and like there's always some device out there that's running some different version 557 00:38:02,630 --> 00:38:07,650 because again you don't have any control over any network it's like a beast by yourself but um 558 00:38:07,650 --> 00:38:12,830 My point is, I guess my point is like communication is just alpha, omega. 559 00:38:13,210 --> 00:38:20,550 And especially even more than we realized when we started in the world we're in now, it's like getting more and more important than ever. 560 00:38:21,550 --> 00:38:21,770 Yes. 561 00:38:21,970 --> 00:38:28,630 And I mean, that's, you know, people, I worked in the data center business once and you hear a reference to five nines. 562 00:38:28,630 --> 00:38:31,270 You know, you need 99.999% uptime. 563 00:38:31,270 --> 00:38:43,530 And I think that has now transferred to consumer expectations they want, you know, nearing 100 percent of whatever it is that they have come to expect from that particular application, that particular use case. 564 00:38:43,650 --> 00:38:46,050 And as you say, chat is extremely difficult. 565 00:38:47,470 --> 00:38:54,610 So with that, let's get into the question that, you know, I've got to ask and I'm sure you love to talk about, which is open source. 566 00:38:55,490 --> 00:38:59,730 And so, you know, I did put out on Nostra, hey, guys, I'm speaking to Matias. 567 00:38:59,730 --> 00:39:00,930 What do we want to know about? 568 00:39:00,930 --> 00:39:06,270 and the one thing that came back, you know, and we'll, again, we'll hopefully make this appealing 569 00:39:06,270 --> 00:39:12,330 or approachable for those who are not developers, but certainly developers as well. So, you know, 570 00:39:12,430 --> 00:39:16,830 key to space criticism for not being fully open sourced. And I do want to get into and let you 571 00:39:16,830 --> 00:39:24,170 talk about what that means. You know, the arrows that get shot at you are therefore, could it, 572 00:39:24,170 --> 00:39:29,650 you know, is it verifiable code, potential backdoors, all of that. So how do you respond 573 00:39:29,650 --> 00:39:34,090 to these critiques and what plans does HolePunch have to address these demands? 574 00:39:36,270 --> 00:39:36,630 Demands. 575 00:39:38,470 --> 00:39:40,490 So first of all, it's like it's something I love to talk about. 576 00:39:40,550 --> 00:39:41,770 I love to talk about open source in general. 577 00:39:42,810 --> 00:39:44,350 I often talk about it on Keet also. 578 00:39:44,650 --> 00:39:47,730 I should probably stick a message on Keet so people have a thing to read through. 579 00:39:48,710 --> 00:39:53,670 So it's actually – it's interesting to think about some of the challenges about making 580 00:39:53,670 --> 00:39:55,850 a peer-to-peer app because I think I talked about that already. 581 00:39:55,850 --> 00:40:00,630 So when you make a peer-to-peer app, you don't have a central server, obviously. 582 00:40:00,870 --> 00:40:03,970 You have an app, and I run the app, and you run the app. 583 00:40:04,350 --> 00:40:12,110 So first of all, if you open something like that too early, as you get with open source, you get this explosion of clients. 584 00:40:13,210 --> 00:40:21,570 Now, that's a good thing, I think, in general, but it can be a very, very tough thing for a project that's trying to iterate a serious infrastructural project. 585 00:40:21,650 --> 00:40:23,370 So breaking changes to the protocol. 586 00:40:23,690 --> 00:40:24,810 Which we do all the time. 587 00:40:24,810 --> 00:40:31,810 So one of the things that people also talk about on Keet is like every time we issue an update on Keet, there's a box that says update the app. 588 00:40:31,910 --> 00:40:34,190 And you're not allowed to use the app until you update it. 589 00:40:34,390 --> 00:40:36,850 And people sometimes are like, maybe that's annoying. 590 00:40:36,950 --> 00:40:38,530 And I'm like, yeah, I totally understand why it's annoying. 591 00:40:38,670 --> 00:40:45,870 But if we don't have that, it'll take us 20 years because we literally have to move software to your device because there is no other device. 592 00:40:46,230 --> 00:40:53,350 And if your software is behind, then everything becomes much, much slower for us. 593 00:40:53,350 --> 00:41:01,610 At the end of the day, as much as I love to appeal to this crowd, what I want to target is the big crowd, our parents, everybody. 594 00:41:02,090 --> 00:41:05,430 And I don't want to lose out to something that's dystopian in that sense from my point of view. 595 00:41:05,890 --> 00:41:10,350 Right. And without a back end, you have no tower of Babel to translate protocol changes. 596 00:41:10,590 --> 00:41:17,970 So you can either bloat every client, every app to address every change in the protocol or you have to push these changes. 597 00:41:17,970 --> 00:41:24,390 So just from making Keat right now with those restrictions that the UI is closed, so we have like one version that we control. 598 00:41:24,530 --> 00:41:27,170 We have one deployment updates of course. 599 00:41:27,270 --> 00:41:30,550 Just with those restrictions, it's still actually compared to just deploying code to a server. 600 00:41:30,690 --> 00:41:34,030 It's still harder for us because we have to deploy it and then we have to wait a little bit. 601 00:41:34,390 --> 00:41:41,030 So it's pressed off through the network before we do some big changes because we also don't want to disrupt people's experience and stuff like that. 602 00:41:41,030 --> 00:41:45,630 You don't flip the switch until you know you've got a certain level of deployment or penetration. 603 00:41:45,630 --> 00:41:49,250 and it's like you know security software and so that's like encouraging stuff you don't want to do 604 00:41:49,250 --> 00:41:53,330 things too much so so it's already already a very big challenge which those limitations which is one 605 00:41:53,330 --> 00:41:58,550 of the main reasons we do it um so so for us especially during this iteration phase it's just 606 00:41:58,550 --> 00:42:03,350 really really important to to just be able to do that those big movements and do it in really fast 607 00:42:03,350 --> 00:42:09,170 um another thing that was very concerned for us in the beginning was also like at the infancy of 608 00:42:09,170 --> 00:42:14,310 a project obviously you you it's like this we had i had that happen a lot with my other open source 609 00:42:14,310 --> 00:42:19,550 stuff where somebody will fork and put like a shit coin in it i don't know if i can say that 610 00:42:19,550 --> 00:42:23,590 in the podcast absolutely you can that's good just going back to like there's just many many 611 00:42:23,590 --> 00:42:27,710 ways of hindering this project from getting off the ground and that's again what we care about we 612 00:42:27,710 --> 00:42:34,490 care about like getting that multi-million user adoption for the for the masses um so we can get 613 00:42:34,490 --> 00:42:38,370 these things actually don't want to be like a niche thing but get deployed very widely right 614 00:42:38,370 --> 00:42:43,430 right that's so that's that's big part of the reason why we do and the main part actually uh 615 00:42:43,430 --> 00:42:52,010 And I always say, this might sound fluffy, I don't mean to fluffy, but we always evaluate where we are on the roadmap and things can change anytime. 616 00:42:52,190 --> 00:43:01,010 But right now for us, it's just very, very important to get that stage where we don't have to do that and then our options become clearer about other things we can do. 617 00:43:01,370 --> 00:43:10,770 So to counter that, because I can totally hear the argument, we then try to take everything that's not the app and make it open source so we can actually have that contribution. 618 00:43:10,770 --> 00:43:17,590 So we have like, I can't remember how many, like 2,000 repositories across different things people can contribute to. 619 00:43:18,150 --> 00:43:21,570 Because we actually, like I said, I'm a big believer of open source and stuff. 620 00:43:22,110 --> 00:43:23,450 And we want to get those contributions. 621 00:43:23,630 --> 00:43:26,010 We want to get the stuff reviewed and stuff like that. 622 00:43:26,090 --> 00:43:28,310 So that's kind of like how we try to counter what I just said. 623 00:43:28,550 --> 00:43:32,030 And what license, is there a consistent license across those, Matthias, or does it vary? 624 00:43:32,590 --> 00:43:37,770 Well, licenses are really, really tough because if you ever, it's all permissive license. 625 00:43:37,970 --> 00:43:39,710 I think most of it is Apache now. 626 00:43:39,710 --> 00:43:40,450 we used to do it 627 00:43:40,450 --> 00:43:41,750 but I guess 628 00:43:41,750 --> 00:43:42,810 all permission licenses 629 00:43:42,810 --> 00:43:43,930 so the most permissive 630 00:43:43,930 --> 00:43:44,510 if not the 631 00:43:44,510 --> 00:43:45,330 I'm not an expert 632 00:43:45,330 --> 00:43:45,670 but 633 00:43:45,670 --> 00:43:46,410 yeah 634 00:43:46,410 --> 00:43:47,530 the only 635 00:43:47,530 --> 00:43:48,270 the only license 636 00:43:48,270 --> 00:43:48,810 that really 637 00:43:48,810 --> 00:43:49,690 in my opinion 638 00:43:49,690 --> 00:43:51,090 like works 639 00:43:51,090 --> 00:43:51,690 the rest is 640 00:43:51,690 --> 00:43:52,490 too complicated 641 00:43:52,490 --> 00:43:53,030 but like 642 00:43:53,030 --> 00:43:53,610 I'm not a lawyer 643 00:43:53,610 --> 00:43:54,210 don't sue me 644 00:43:54,210 --> 00:43:54,750 yes 645 00:43:54,750 --> 00:43:56,710 so yeah 646 00:43:56,710 --> 00:43:57,630 so like I said 647 00:43:57,630 --> 00:43:58,650 open source is really important 648 00:43:58,650 --> 00:43:58,950 to me 649 00:43:58,950 --> 00:44:00,070 and we consistently 650 00:44:00,070 --> 00:44:01,750 as we get forward 651 00:44:01,750 --> 00:44:02,250 to that mission 652 00:44:02,250 --> 00:44:03,450 open up more and more 653 00:44:03,450 --> 00:44:04,010 but like again 654 00:44:04,010 --> 00:44:05,430 just to reiterate 655 00:44:05,430 --> 00:44:06,410 it's not to be evil 656 00:44:06,410 --> 00:44:07,110 it's not to do anything 657 00:44:07,110 --> 00:44:07,490 it's just like 658 00:44:07,490 --> 00:44:08,350 we want to hit that target 659 00:44:08,350 --> 00:44:08,790 of like 660 00:44:08,790 --> 00:44:15,670 iteration speed and like have people um have an app that just moves fast and it's always up to date 661 00:44:15,670 --> 00:44:21,030 got it thank you and is there is there an intention is there a commitment maybe it's there 662 00:44:21,030 --> 00:44:26,870 and i missed it um to open source key when the time is right is that decision been made 663 00:44:26,870 --> 00:44:34,690 uh right now so just to be i try to be as least fluffy as i can but like right now the only thing 664 00:44:34,690 --> 00:44:38,350 that matters for us is that main adoption and once we hit that we'll then evaluate where we are and 665 00:44:38,350 --> 00:44:44,910 I think it's a little bit hard to say when it happens because like it's just really, really sophisticated software at the end of the day. 666 00:44:45,010 --> 00:44:49,190 But like obviously we will reevaluate these things as we go along. 667 00:44:49,190 --> 00:44:53,330 And all through that journey, our goal is to get as close to 100% as possible. 668 00:44:53,630 --> 00:44:58,570 Like I think there's more important things than that on that front. 669 00:44:58,670 --> 00:45:03,990 Kind of like if we don't have open devices anyway, I actually think it matters very little because you don't know what software you're getting anyway. 670 00:45:04,270 --> 00:45:07,530 I'm not saying that it's like that necessarily has to be like one. 671 00:45:07,530 --> 00:45:07,690 Sure, sure. 672 00:45:07,690 --> 00:45:11,790 Well, and my – you know, what my observation would be – and I hear you. 673 00:45:11,850 --> 00:45:16,930 I mean, as I mentioned before we got started, I have sort of two halves to my brain. 674 00:45:17,070 --> 00:45:18,030 One is suit. 675 00:45:18,170 --> 00:45:19,250 One is nerd. 676 00:45:20,010 --> 00:45:22,810 And I keep them, I think, in pretty decent balance. 677 00:45:23,710 --> 00:45:26,770 So we talked about monetization. 678 00:45:27,130 --> 00:45:35,490 You know, you've got a partner who's probably one of the highest margins in history. 679 00:45:35,490 --> 00:45:42,470 And so I know money is, you know, never to be wasted, but it's not probably a primary concern. 680 00:45:43,530 --> 00:45:51,190 But where I'm going with that is presumably monetization is somewhere on the roadmap for a whole bunch. 681 00:45:51,270 --> 00:45:52,230 Tell me, you know, otherwise. 682 00:45:53,090 --> 00:46:05,150 But what's most interesting to me is if we zoom out, let's just sort of set aside the academic and sort of, you know, 683 00:46:05,490 --> 00:46:10,850 legalistic definitions of open source and do you or don't you do it, what does it do? 684 00:46:11,390 --> 00:46:18,330 How does it hinder that army of open source developers that perhaps you do or don't want 685 00:46:18,330 --> 00:46:20,070 building on hole punch right now? 686 00:46:20,070 --> 00:46:44,245 So you know and I raise you know again something probably nattering in your ear all the time is BitChat you know Jack Dorsey VibeCode project and Noster These are not the same things But talk to me about hole punches your perspective as the CEO on how open source or not factors 687 00:46:44,245 --> 00:46:51,105 in to recruiting an army to build applications on your infrastructure. 688 00:46:52,065 --> 00:46:55,145 Well, first of all, our infrastructure is open and our entire platform is open. 689 00:46:55,145 --> 00:46:58,525 We have a very vibrant community of people building things. 690 00:46:58,605 --> 00:47:03,305 It's still very early in a lot of apps, but I'm a big believer in that. 691 00:47:03,505 --> 00:47:08,945 Open source is interesting because there's open source for people who've been in open source for a long time, like myself. 692 00:47:09,065 --> 00:47:11,665 And then there's open source for people a little bit outside open source. 693 00:47:11,785 --> 00:47:12,765 And I can see how that differs. 694 00:47:13,725 --> 00:47:14,205 Sure. 695 00:47:14,365 --> 00:47:15,845 Just from a personal experience. 696 00:47:15,845 --> 00:47:19,025 It's a brand versus a mechanism or an approach. 697 00:47:19,345 --> 00:47:23,905 I always personally done open source because I was like, here's something for the world to consume if they want to. 698 00:47:23,905 --> 00:47:26,765 and then you realize that this is not always the case, 699 00:47:26,805 --> 00:47:27,605 but it's mostly the case. 700 00:47:27,745 --> 00:47:28,625 People don't contribute back. 701 00:47:28,705 --> 00:47:29,425 That's not a bad thing. 702 00:47:29,545 --> 00:47:31,745 It's just that that's not really how it works. 703 00:47:31,805 --> 00:47:33,445 It's just more like you can use it if you want to. 704 00:47:33,605 --> 00:47:35,365 And some people will send you bug reports. 705 00:47:35,485 --> 00:47:37,565 But this like magic world of people coming in 706 00:47:37,565 --> 00:47:39,265 and we all collaborate on things together 707 00:47:39,265 --> 00:47:40,725 seldomly happens. 708 00:47:40,825 --> 00:47:42,485 It happens sometimes, but it seldomly happens. 709 00:47:42,585 --> 00:47:44,385 And when it does, it leads to other things. 710 00:47:44,385 --> 00:47:46,645 So I'm not a personal big believer of that. 711 00:47:46,725 --> 00:47:48,245 I think other people are, but I'm not personally. 712 00:47:48,485 --> 00:47:51,705 But I'm a very big believer of like open infrastructure 713 00:47:51,705 --> 00:47:53,725 and everybody builds things in open platforms. 714 00:47:53,905 --> 00:48:00,165 now with other apps and stuff yeah like it's the same thing there's like there's there's a there's a 715 00:48:00,165 --> 00:48:04,305 there's a bunch of cool things there and i think that's cool i actually think i look through some 716 00:48:04,305 --> 00:48:07,665 of the bit check code just to see how i did some of the meshing because i'm like i wonder how they 717 00:48:07,665 --> 00:48:13,405 do it compared to right and like i would encourage those people to look through our swarm code to be 718 00:48:13,405 --> 00:48:18,705 the same thing like that's just good practice i recently ran a conference here in logano called 719 00:48:18,705 --> 00:48:23,885 the p2p summit where we also yes try to invite a bunch of people from from different projects that 720 00:48:23,885 --> 00:48:29,485 um i think one of my friends said like aren't they a competitor i'm like yeah but it doesn't 721 00:48:29,485 --> 00:48:32,405 matter because it's open infrastructure right so it's kind of like if they can make their thing 722 00:48:32,405 --> 00:48:36,045 better i'm fine with that like i don't have to compete with their own infrastructure if they can 723 00:48:36,045 --> 00:48:42,625 make our thing better that's fine um so like um so that stuff really works i think like open ideas 724 00:48:42,625 --> 00:48:49,165 really work um now in terms of monetization yeah like you don't really monetize open source apps i 725 00:48:49,165 --> 00:48:52,505 think that's just like how it is you need like that doesn't mean you don't make money it just 726 00:48:52,505 --> 00:48:57,645 means that certainly like classic idea of like red hat figured it out you know way back right 727 00:48:57,645 --> 00:49:02,885 services uh which i presume but that that presumes there's infrastructure to maintain on behalf of a 728 00:49:02,885 --> 00:49:06,985 client it's different without any yeah so what's very interesting about peer-to-peer what i think 729 00:49:06,985 --> 00:49:11,045 about a lot and it's actually funny you said the thing about tether and like profit margins because 730 00:49:11,045 --> 00:49:14,925 When we started out and when I started working with Tether, that was when Tether was tiny. 731 00:49:15,985 --> 00:49:17,725 Yes, right, right. 732 00:49:17,765 --> 00:49:21,005 Which I'm very happy about because that means that we get off on the right foot on that. 733 00:49:21,345 --> 00:49:21,625 Yes. 734 00:49:22,065 --> 00:49:29,645 But what's very interesting about peer-to-peer is that obviously there's no operational cost, or at least that's very fixed operational cost. 735 00:49:29,745 --> 00:49:34,245 So obviously I pay, we have a bunch of developers and they get a salary. 736 00:49:34,245 --> 00:49:39,465 But my cost tomorrow is the same as my cost today, whether or not he takes off or not. 737 00:49:39,465 --> 00:49:41,105 from a 738 00:49:41,105 --> 00:49:41,525 from a 739 00:49:41,525 --> 00:49:42,345 from a planning point of view 740 00:49:42,345 --> 00:49:43,245 and like a 741 00:49:43,245 --> 00:49:44,345 profitability point of view 742 00:49:44,345 --> 00:49:45,505 that's a much easier 743 00:49:45,505 --> 00:49:46,185 equation for me 744 00:49:46,185 --> 00:49:46,925 because it means that 745 00:49:46,925 --> 00:49:47,705 I can think about 746 00:49:47,705 --> 00:49:48,605 these things in terms of like 747 00:49:48,605 --> 00:49:50,465 what do we want to sell 748 00:49:50,465 --> 00:49:51,585 and what service 749 00:49:51,585 --> 00:49:52,105 do we want to do 750 00:49:52,105 --> 00:49:52,765 and there's tons of stuff 751 00:49:52,765 --> 00:49:53,665 you can do in a P2P network 752 00:49:53,665 --> 00:49:54,625 like you can do partnerships 753 00:49:54,625 --> 00:49:55,685 you can do all kinds of 754 00:49:55,685 --> 00:49:57,325 like more classical things 755 00:49:57,325 --> 00:49:59,885 but the graphs are more like 756 00:49:59,885 --> 00:50:00,645 the cost are here 757 00:50:00,645 --> 00:50:01,225 and then your profit 758 00:50:01,225 --> 00:50:02,685 like your income 759 00:50:02,685 --> 00:50:03,245 lumpy 760 00:50:03,245 --> 00:50:03,885 yeah 761 00:50:03,885 --> 00:50:04,445 right 762 00:50:04,445 --> 00:50:06,905 now will there be a situation 763 00:50:06,905 --> 00:50:07,485 where like 764 00:50:07,485 --> 00:50:08,425 every user 765 00:50:08,425 --> 00:50:10,505 and a peer-to-peer open source app 766 00:50:10,505 --> 00:50:11,645 make sure X amount of money? 767 00:50:11,745 --> 00:50:12,925 I don't think so, personally. 768 00:50:13,345 --> 00:50:14,565 It's like, but I'm also, 769 00:50:15,365 --> 00:50:16,165 maybe there will be, 770 00:50:16,625 --> 00:50:18,425 but like you can definitely easily 771 00:50:18,425 --> 00:50:19,345 make profitable apps. 772 00:50:19,865 --> 00:50:22,025 So, but it's a very interesting question. 773 00:50:22,405 --> 00:50:24,685 And we, in Lugano, 774 00:50:24,785 --> 00:50:27,785 we also run as part of the Plan B Network here, 775 00:50:27,825 --> 00:50:28,665 which is the Bitcoin Network. 776 00:50:28,965 --> 00:50:29,885 There's like a summer school 777 00:50:29,885 --> 00:50:31,685 where a bunch of students come in. 778 00:50:31,725 --> 00:50:33,345 We love to ask them this question of like, 779 00:50:33,705 --> 00:50:35,425 imagine a world where there's like fixed expenses, 780 00:50:35,525 --> 00:50:36,925 but you don't have this kind of like gatekeeping. 781 00:50:36,925 --> 00:50:41,965 like what's the kind of business model you were thinking about and um it's very interesting to 782 00:50:41,965 --> 00:50:46,405 things to see what pink things people come up with but it's just much more classical businesses in 783 00:50:46,405 --> 00:50:50,125 terms of like these kind of like modern centralized businesses it's more like right well we sell this 784 00:50:50,125 --> 00:50:55,405 thing and we made a market and we sell this yes maybe for key that means you know hardware is 785 00:50:55,405 --> 00:50:59,485 important maybe it doesn't maybe it means that you know like i said partnerships maybe it means that 786 00:50:59,485 --> 00:51:04,606 we sell them you know i'm just saying things like sure licensing embedding on and on all these things 787 00:51:04,606 --> 00:51:05,265 I don't know. 788 00:51:05,525 --> 00:51:06,185 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 789 00:51:06,285 --> 00:51:07,225 I mean, you know, gaming. 790 00:51:07,385 --> 00:51:07,725 I mean, right? 791 00:51:08,485 --> 00:51:12,065 You can look to gaming so many use cases or so many revenue lines. 792 00:51:12,525 --> 00:51:15,165 There's all kinds of things, but it's not going to be classical in that sense. 793 00:51:15,305 --> 00:51:17,106 And I think that's the same for any kind of other app. 794 00:51:17,106 --> 00:51:23,065 And I think, so thinking about Master, thinking about BitShare, it's like, for me, it's all good. 795 00:51:23,245 --> 00:51:24,845 Like, you know, we all want the same thing. 796 00:51:24,905 --> 00:51:27,525 We want to have the world move towards these platforms. 797 00:51:30,665 --> 00:51:32,385 There's going to be different takes on doing it. 798 00:51:32,465 --> 00:51:32,885 That's fine. 799 00:51:33,305 --> 00:51:34,405 That's how these things work. 800 00:51:34,405 --> 00:51:42,945 But like we want that mission, which is like, let's get decentralized providers out and get these decentralized providers in. 801 00:51:43,705 --> 00:51:45,085 Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. I hear you. 802 00:51:45,525 --> 00:51:49,165 Well, in all of that, let's zoom out a bit. 803 00:51:49,265 --> 00:51:54,905 Matthias, give me, please give us your vision for what success looks like. 804 00:51:54,945 --> 00:51:56,585 Is that five years? Is it 10 years? Whatever. 805 00:51:56,825 --> 00:52:04,085 But what are we as individuals experiencing in, call it five years? 806 00:52:04,405 --> 00:52:08,805 with hole punch, peer-to-peer successful? 807 00:52:09,065 --> 00:52:10,045 What does life look like? 808 00:52:11,425 --> 00:52:11,905 It's a good question. 809 00:52:12,385 --> 00:52:16,505 And I have many different ideas of success. 810 00:52:16,606 --> 00:52:18,185 I don't even know if I want to call all of it that. 811 00:52:18,185 --> 00:52:23,325 But I think, so we set out, when we made this company, 812 00:52:23,485 --> 00:52:25,245 we kind of had this decision to make internally. 813 00:52:25,445 --> 00:52:29,765 Do we want to just try to make a straight-up classic successful company 814 00:52:29,765 --> 00:52:31,785 or do we want to make something else? 815 00:52:31,785 --> 00:52:36,265 like a classic successful company role is our internal trope for that is like let's make a 816 00:52:36,265 --> 00:52:44,205 dating app and be very successful built to flip built to sell yeah and we explicitly said no to 817 00:52:44,205 --> 00:52:50,265 that and we said let's try to actually do something where that upside is much much harder but like 818 00:52:50,265 --> 00:52:53,865 where the mission is much much grander that's what we were driven by this all our backgrounds 819 00:52:53,865 --> 00:53:00,125 um which is like business school why is it terrible idea um but but that's what we were 820 00:53:00,125 --> 00:53:06,965 driven by it so so the reason i say that is that it kind of like opens up this very right range of 821 00:53:06,965 --> 00:53:11,165 like what does success mean because one part of success is like the entire world is running on 822 00:53:11,165 --> 00:53:16,005 technology i'm bankrupt and living somewhere else but like that's that's some measure of success 823 00:53:16,005 --> 00:53:20,525 that i would that would it's not very good personal success but it's still like part of the mission 824 00:53:20,525 --> 00:53:26,545 but obviously the success we're looking for is like defeat the status quo um get all these 825 00:53:26,545 --> 00:53:31,865 centralized providers to basically stop existing and have people give their data sovereignty back 826 00:53:31,865 --> 00:53:34,965 and have private and startable communications and data. 827 00:53:35,485 --> 00:53:36,785 It's as simple as that. 828 00:53:37,405 --> 00:53:42,285 And on a level playing field where it doesn't matter if you're in a big jurisdiction or small jurisdiction, 829 00:53:42,545 --> 00:53:46,445 it's just like I said in the beginning, the power of the individual and the devices you own 830 00:53:46,445 --> 00:53:49,145 should be the only thing that matters in this technological world. 831 00:53:50,565 --> 00:53:52,265 And right now, it definitely isn't. 832 00:53:52,265 --> 00:53:53,565 So that's for me. 833 00:53:53,565 --> 00:53:56,685 and on top of that, build a sustainable business 834 00:53:56,685 --> 00:53:59,345 so we can keep funding these things and develop it. 835 00:53:59,385 --> 00:54:02,005 Because I think also it's utopia to think 836 00:54:02,005 --> 00:54:03,925 that we just make these things and like stop, right? 837 00:54:03,985 --> 00:54:04,725 So we need, it's like, 838 00:54:04,765 --> 00:54:06,005 there's always going to be some new challenge. 839 00:54:06,165 --> 00:54:07,645 There's always some arms race going on 840 00:54:07,645 --> 00:54:09,985 with like trying to train networks and stuff. 841 00:54:09,985 --> 00:54:15,325 So I would say like, it's crazy to me 842 00:54:15,325 --> 00:54:18,485 that we set out on this really intense mission. 843 00:54:18,585 --> 00:54:20,045 I talked to a lot of funders 844 00:54:20,045 --> 00:54:22,485 and they're all like, what are you doing? 845 00:54:23,565 --> 00:54:25,845 I'm sure they have lots of recommendations for you. 846 00:54:26,265 --> 00:54:28,945 They all are like, maybe if you do a coin, I'm like, well, we don't do the coin also. 847 00:54:31,005 --> 00:54:35,345 So my point is like, we worked on this for a long time. 848 00:54:35,485 --> 00:54:36,165 We got it to work. 849 00:54:36,965 --> 00:54:41,705 We found the money through relationships and stuff. 850 00:54:41,825 --> 00:54:42,625 They're very, very committed. 851 00:54:42,805 --> 00:54:43,645 We got that to work. 852 00:54:44,045 --> 00:54:47,425 And somehow also the world is moving to a place where peer-to-peer is supporting. 853 00:54:47,765 --> 00:54:50,285 So I'm like, those three events don't happen by accident. 854 00:54:50,405 --> 00:54:52,545 So I'm always like driven by that. 855 00:54:52,545 --> 00:54:55,805 of like we have a mission we need to execute and we are executing it. 856 00:54:55,865 --> 00:54:56,665 And that's really, really important. 857 00:54:56,725 --> 00:54:58,545 And that's for me what success looks like. 858 00:54:59,325 --> 00:54:59,385 Excellent. 859 00:54:59,505 --> 00:55:04,265 Well, and what really stuck with me or struck me as you were speaking, Matthias, 860 00:55:04,265 --> 00:55:12,585 is just as those of us who use Bitcoin and I think see Bitcoin as a preeminent tool, 861 00:55:13,305 --> 00:55:19,285 can memorize 12 words as the trope, but it's true, goes and cross borders with our wealth. 862 00:55:19,285 --> 00:55:38,606 What I heard you say, which really struck me, was to be able to change jurisdictions, cross borders with a powerful device and the necessary software and connectivity to do the things we wish to do without thinking, you know, is this permitted here? 863 00:55:38,745 --> 00:55:40,145 Is there a great firewall? 864 00:55:40,805 --> 00:55:45,685 Is there, you know, some sort of ban on VPNs? 865 00:55:45,685 --> 00:55:48,625 And I appreciate that these technical problems don't go away. 866 00:55:48,625 --> 00:56:05,765 But as a vision, I think that's powerful. It's just as I can memorize 12 words and cross a border and have my wealth, I can hold in my hand a device I own running peer-to-peer powered software, cross a border, and do what I need to do. I think that's really powerful. 867 00:56:05,765 --> 00:56:27,106 Yeah, and like, if you think about it, it's also how we fight the bureaucrats, right? Because like, how do you stop a population that has financial aspects of that and communication aspects of that and general data independence like that? Like, what's holding you back then from being like, well, I don't like it here. I'm going to go somewhere else. Because at the end of the day, those are the things the future is going to be built on. 868 00:56:27,106 --> 00:56:52,245 So, yeah, absolutely. I keep waiting for somebody to rewrite or update the sovereign individual for these things. Well, let's wrap up here. You did mention your P2P summit and I'd like to get a reflection on that and then maybe integrate that, Matthias, into for builders, developers, business owners, product people. 869 00:56:52,245 --> 00:57:00,465 let's say, and I hope they do, that they buy into the fact that peer-to-peer is increasingly 870 00:57:00,465 --> 00:57:06,445 important and it must be part of the way forward. What do they need to do strategically, 871 00:57:06,865 --> 00:57:13,945 operationally, to get ready and ultimately to build on peer-to-peer? I almost said peer-to-peer, 872 00:57:13,945 --> 00:57:16,765 so you probably know where I'm going with that, but you take my point. 873 00:57:16,765 --> 00:57:23,905 uh yeah i think so first of all like uh it's still early like bitcoin is still early also 874 00:57:23,905 --> 00:57:29,865 like it's less early than it used to be but this is like bit p2p is even earlier um what you need 875 00:57:29,865 --> 00:57:35,725 to do is like i found this myself like coming up through a university system and stuff like that 876 00:57:35,725 --> 00:57:40,125 and this is not even because the system is sinister but you you get programmed into thinking 877 00:57:40,125 --> 00:57:44,606 a certain kind of way and so like i came out of the system thinking like this is the only way to 878 00:57:44,606 --> 00:57:48,625 build things you have to have these servers you have to have to do the things this is just how 879 00:57:48,625 --> 00:57:55,106 it's taught you want to get a good grade that's how you do it you need to learn how to deprogram 880 00:57:55,106 --> 00:57:59,745 and that sounds easy but it's really hard which means like you need to start thinking like these 881 00:57:59,745 --> 00:58:04,005 crazy things of like what if we just didn't have this aspect how can we still do things how what 882 00:58:04,005 --> 00:58:10,865 if we just didn't have servers what if i wanted to make a video service where like the video was 883 00:58:10,865 --> 00:58:15,045 is always insane quality and it wouldn't cost anything that sounds wrong right but we can do 884 00:58:15,045 --> 00:58:20,825 that um and then the next thing is like how can i you know meet people that think that same way 885 00:58:20,825 --> 00:58:26,505 and get feedback whether i'm like a business person or a developer or what i am um and um 886 00:58:26,505 --> 00:58:31,045 it's not even to plug our app but like on key we have a very vibrant community on that for 887 00:58:31,045 --> 00:58:36,525 p2p things uh i would just join it we have a bunch of different people and we we we jam out to these 888 00:58:36,525 --> 00:58:40,585 questions every day because they're very interesting so as a as a as a person trying 889 00:58:40,585 --> 00:58:44,106 to do something in the world i think that's very very important to think now also if you're like 890 00:58:44,106 --> 00:58:48,365 a small about people are a little bit cautious you don't have to like go full peer-to-peer from 891 00:58:48,365 --> 00:58:51,125 the beginning right you can make like an app where you have certain aspects of the app be 892 00:58:51,125 --> 00:58:55,645 peer-to-peer and other things not if that's like something that suits you better but i always think 893 00:58:55,645 --> 00:59:01,905 about it in terms of like for me it's like it's it's it's where things are going really fast i i 894 00:59:01,905 --> 00:59:05,905 do i use this analogy once in a while of like the internet before encryption and the internet after 895 00:59:05,905 --> 00:59:10,025 encryption because i when i came up people were looking at https the encryption layer on internet 896 00:59:10,025 --> 00:59:16,125 being like do we really need that it sounds complicated yeah the little ssl badge on the 897 00:59:16,125 --> 00:59:19,385 bottom of the website yeah it was always like always these discussions of like oh you should 898 00:59:19,385 --> 00:59:23,025 do it on this but on this and it was that kind of reminds me a lot of the peer-to-peer discussion 899 00:59:23,025 --> 00:59:28,385 today and then now five ten years later we look back and we're like what were we thinking like 900 00:59:28,385 --> 00:59:32,465 that was absolutely the most crazy discussion ever of course you need to encrypt everything all the 901 00:59:32,465 --> 00:59:37,285 time that's how i see peer-to-peer going so that's why you need to educate you about yourself today 902 00:59:37,285 --> 00:59:41,625 because like in in five ten years you're going to look back and be like why did we ever give google 903 00:59:41,625 --> 00:59:50,545 this data that's crazy um also for like the way um just like like we said jurisdictions um 904 00:59:50,545 --> 00:59:54,285 regulation is going it's going to be much more important this kind of like sovereignty 905 00:59:54,285 --> 00:59:59,905 the bureaucrats might not know it but it's also like the world they're building so so so you need 906 00:59:59,905 --> 01:00:01,025 to get educated now. 907 01:00:01,165 --> 01:00:02,485 You don't have to be a technical person. 908 01:00:02,585 --> 01:00:03,265 You just need to kind of like 909 01:00:03,265 --> 01:00:03,945 understand the concepts. 910 01:00:04,085 --> 01:00:05,405 Again, join Keat, 911 01:00:05,485 --> 01:00:06,665 join our channels there, 912 01:00:06,985 --> 01:00:07,725 talk to us. 913 01:00:08,885 --> 01:00:08,905 Super. 914 01:00:09,125 --> 01:00:09,845 And how actually, 915 01:00:09,945 --> 01:00:10,925 how does one, 916 01:00:11,045 --> 01:00:11,345 you know, 917 01:00:11,765 --> 01:00:12,785 given that it's peer-to-peer 918 01:00:12,785 --> 01:00:13,405 and not centralized, 919 01:00:13,845 --> 01:00:15,005 how does one discover 920 01:00:15,005 --> 01:00:17,205 those spaces, 921 01:00:17,545 --> 01:00:19,106 those channels on Keat? 922 01:00:19,585 --> 01:00:20,765 Yeah, that's... 923 01:00:20,765 --> 01:00:21,645 Let's give, 924 01:00:21,645 --> 01:00:22,145 let's give, 925 01:00:22,245 --> 01:00:23,245 you know, 926 01:00:23,465 --> 01:00:24,005 viewers, listeners, 927 01:00:24,325 --> 01:00:25,465 a one, two, three, 928 01:00:25,585 --> 01:00:26,085 get started. 929 01:00:26,725 --> 01:00:27,505 So the only thing 930 01:00:27,505 --> 01:00:28,085 we run centralized 931 01:00:28,085 --> 01:00:28,745 is our website. 932 01:00:28,865 --> 01:00:29,445 We have a website 933 01:00:29,445 --> 01:00:32,345 because you need a way to get the app, unfortunately, right now. 934 01:00:32,345 --> 01:00:32,565 Of course. 935 01:00:33,745 --> 01:00:35,485 Keet.io, you go there, you download the app. 936 01:00:35,965 --> 01:00:38,665 After you download the app, we actually have a list of rooms. 937 01:00:39,125 --> 01:00:42,945 We have code just for new users, so you want to get an entryway. 938 01:00:43,065 --> 01:00:45,065 We have our development room and stuff. 939 01:00:45,165 --> 01:00:46,825 That's just rooms that are still peer-to-peer, 940 01:00:46,885 --> 01:00:48,725 but it just kind of has the invite there to Bootstrap. 941 01:00:50,305 --> 01:00:53,525 Once you're in Keet, then users will just exchange links themselves. 942 01:00:53,805 --> 01:00:56,265 There's a room of rooms and stuff, which is kind of fun. 943 01:00:56,265 --> 01:00:56,685 Right, right. 944 01:00:57,305 --> 01:00:59,145 And they're all entryways through there. 945 01:00:59,145 --> 01:01:02,106 So it's a really, really fun community. 946 01:01:02,325 --> 01:01:04,465 It's very fun for us because we don't know half of what's going on. 947 01:01:04,485 --> 01:01:06,585 We don't even know like anything that's going on. 948 01:01:06,765 --> 01:01:09,705 We hear things through the grapevine. 949 01:01:10,405 --> 01:01:17,025 But joining a couple of those suggested rooms, that's where all the whole punchers hang out. 950 01:01:17,205 --> 01:01:19,106 Also, we'll try to guide people through an experience. 951 01:01:20,125 --> 01:01:21,925 But also, it's early, right? 952 01:01:22,005 --> 01:01:26,985 So like people are friendly, people are online, happy to help anybody when they're peer-to-peer. 953 01:01:26,985 --> 01:01:27,425 Fantastic. 954 01:01:28,325 --> 01:01:29,106 It's been great. 955 01:01:29,285 --> 01:01:30,545 I really appreciate it, Matthias. 956 01:01:31,285 --> 01:01:42,106 Delighted to hear that you have, as I expected you would, the sort of philosophical and the underlying motivation, you know, to do a lot of very important things. 957 01:01:42,265 --> 01:01:44,925 So I will make sure all these links are in the show notes. 958 01:01:45,165 --> 01:01:45,725 I appreciate it. 959 01:01:45,745 --> 01:01:47,685 Hope we can catch up soon and see how things are going. 960 01:01:48,285 --> 01:01:49,725 And we'll talk soon. 961 01:01:49,845 --> 01:01:50,405 Thank you, Matthias. 962 01:01:50,785 --> 01:01:51,285 Thanks for having me. 963 01:01:51,285 --> 01:01:51,745 All the best. 964 01:01:52,065 --> 01:01:52,305 Bye-bye. 965 01:01:57,425 --> 01:02:01,705 Vedanta Jr