1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,740 Yeah, I'm not sure about reforming the systems themselves. 2 00:00:03,020 --> 00:00:04,480 I think it comes down to the incentives. 3 00:00:04,660 --> 00:00:07,160 As with most things, it's the incentive. 4 00:00:07,540 --> 00:00:16,460 And at least in my observation, it seems like the incentive has become to data harvest as many people as possible and then sell that to secondary markets. 5 00:00:16,460 --> 00:00:20,720 The dark part of these secondary markets is you're not just selling to advertisers, right? 6 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:29,940 You're selling to an advertiser that is then turning around with a public-private partnership that is doing some sort of data brokerage on the backside for governmental purposes. 7 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:46,240 I think that incentive is perverse. I think there's also the incentive for trapping everyone sort of in their data silos. You know, like if you're already on some platform, we'll call it Google Drive or iCloud or whatever, there's this sort of incentive to keep you there. 8 00:00:49,820 --> 00:00:50,680 Gary, welcome. 9 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:52,100 Thanks for having me, Sean. 10 00:00:52,100 --> 00:01:03,040 Absolutely. My pleasure. It was great seeing you last week at Bitcoin Veterans, which I definitely want to get into a lot of work. 11 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:10,540 And I think the reason, in addition to just finding you to be a fine and outstanding human being, is you've got an interesting career arc. 12 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:29,180 And so I think it sort of serves, I'm sure you've heard this before, as a great indication of how someone can transition from what some of us might call sort of, you know, being part of the machine into building the alternatives. 13 00:01:29,180 --> 00:01:52,020 And so, you know, with that, let's start here. You spent, if I got it correct, 11 years in Navy intelligence straight out of high school. You're a Chinese linguist, data analyst, Naval Special Warfare Tech Operations, then to Microsoft, then into FinTech, and now Bitcoin mining at a large scale minor. You're a software engineer there. 14 00:01:52,020 --> 00:02:00,200 Each move, you know, as I read it, maybe I'm mapping onto your life here, takes you further from centralized control. 15 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:06,020 What did each stage teach you, perhaps, that the previous one didn't? 16 00:02:06,740 --> 00:02:12,460 So sort of how do you get from naval intel to Bitcoin mining and open source software? 17 00:02:13,460 --> 00:02:21,360 Okay, that is, I mean, the first thing I say that I took away from my naval service was like the discipline. 18 00:02:22,020 --> 00:02:31,900 I kind of identified by the grace of God very early on that I wasn't going to be cut out for like self-motivated college or anything along those lines. 19 00:02:32,700 --> 00:02:37,500 Played a lot of video games in high school, did a lot of skateboarding, not a lot of academics or anything like that. 20 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,500 And yeah, so that was probably the biggest takeaway from my Navy time. 21 00:02:41,620 --> 00:02:43,940 But I served in two different locations. 22 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,980 The first was at that strategic level, you know, as a Chinese linguist and everything like that. 23 00:02:47,980 --> 00:02:57,800 That's where I got the data analytics, we'll call it, or just sort of logical analysis of networks, data, you name it. 24 00:02:59,100 --> 00:03:07,940 And so the first time I ever wrote code was some Python in that role, trying to parse out some CSV files that were too big to fit on the thin client computer that we were using. 25 00:03:08,300 --> 00:03:11,280 And so I had to do it all server side, and that required learning some Python. 26 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:18,240 fast forward though i think the individualism so so i i screened and went into the special 27 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:23,920 operations community for the tactical intelligence stuff uh as you mentioned but that was um they 28 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:29,060 called it like a shooting a thinking shooter right was a was a common phrase uh but it was more of 29 00:03:29,060 --> 00:03:36,100 being fully aware of the context of a situation and even if you don't know uh the specifics of 30 00:03:36,100 --> 00:03:41,440 a different domain, you at least need to know like surface level of a domain, right? So we would 31 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:45,620 deploy in these things called cross-functional troops, which meant, you know, myself as a 32 00:03:45,620 --> 00:03:49,180 signals intelligence specialist, that was like my bread and butter, right? I could speak to that. 33 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:54,840 However, because we cross-trained and collaborated so much in our individual deploying units, 34 00:03:55,080 --> 00:04:03,200 I could actually talk to intelligently and sort of brief anybody on the capabilities of my other 35 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,620 verticals, right? The other cross-functional members of my team. So we had a number of those 36 00:04:07,620 --> 00:04:12,760 different ones, but what that impressed upon me was just the highlighting the ability to, 37 00:04:13,060 --> 00:04:16,580 you don't necessarily need to know the answer, but you need to know where to find that answer. 38 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:22,360 And then just, I further deepened my technical skills, right? I was running black box radios 39 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:27,440 that had a Linux command line very often and dabbling around with Kali Linux, if you're 40 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:33,080 familiar, that is a penetration testing version of Linux. But yeah, those were probably the two 41 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:39,720 big takeaways I had from the Navy and just the discipline and the motivation to just do things, 42 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:45,140 right? Like you can just do things. Largely, you had to get permission. But one of the other things 43 00:04:45,140 --> 00:04:49,600 within the special operations community about that thinking shooter idea that they try to 44 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,900 ingrain into everybody was you can just do things, but when you do it, you better have an answer as 45 00:04:53,900 --> 00:04:58,340 to why you did it, right? And so you might've been called out because it wasn't necessarily 46 00:04:58,340 --> 00:05:02,180 according to the plan as laid out by commander or whatever. But if you had an intelligent reason 47 00:05:02,180 --> 00:05:05,600 that you could do it on the fly in a highly dynamic environment. 48 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:06,440 And it made sense. 49 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,620 Nobody's going to come down too hard on you for doing things like that. 50 00:05:10,780 --> 00:05:12,800 And then Microsoft, a couple of years there, 51 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:17,120 it was just cutting my teeth in the professional software environment. 52 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,360 I got embedded into professional build pipelines 53 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:26,080 and learning code review and mentorship and everything like that. 54 00:05:26,260 --> 00:05:29,600 And really, it was a fantastic resume builder, I think. 55 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:31,480 First job right out of the Navy. 56 00:05:32,180 --> 00:05:36,800 to get some sort of credentials for whatever those are worth on my resume 57 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,320 and really learn from some very, very talented individuals. 58 00:05:40,540 --> 00:05:44,220 Think of what Microsoft stands for and the people that work there, 59 00:05:44,340 --> 00:05:49,060 but they really are good at recruiting and holding on to some very, very bright minds. 60 00:05:49,500 --> 00:05:54,120 And so I took full advantage of asking those bright minds how to do it, where to do it. 61 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,500 That's where I got guided into the Rust language ecosystem. 62 00:05:59,340 --> 00:06:01,440 You know, I was looking, I didn't have a CS degree. 63 00:06:01,700 --> 00:06:04,180 And so I knew I needed a systems language, right? 64 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:05,140 Like C or C++. 65 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,700 And my mentor at the time was like, hey, go learn Rust. 66 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:09,740 It's this newer thing. 67 00:06:10,260 --> 00:06:11,180 It's kind of clunky. 68 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:13,000 You're going to suck at it at first. 69 00:06:13,280 --> 00:06:16,640 But if you learn this, you know, you'll have a very bright future in engineering. 70 00:06:16,860 --> 00:06:18,700 And I think it holds true now to this day. 71 00:06:19,700 --> 00:06:21,240 Yeah, I'm also a Microsoft alum. 72 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:26,560 So just learned, I look back now and learned so much of what has been formative for me. 73 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:39,560 When you think back, and I know, Gary, things are not always, you know, by design, you reached a point in the Navy and decided, I'm now going to make this very logical, orderly transition. 74 00:06:40,140 --> 00:06:42,600 I think, you know, it's convenient to sort of map that on. 75 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:43,920 At least for me, that's not been the case. 76 00:06:44,020 --> 00:06:46,560 But was it, you know, let me ask it this way. 77 00:06:46,620 --> 00:06:54,460 What sort of motivated the transition out of the military into big tech, as it were? 78 00:06:54,460 --> 00:07:12,660 A family. I started my family. My wife and I had our first child and it was really fun. I loved the work that I was doing. I loved the people that I was working with, but it took me away a lot. Even when we weren't deployed, we were stateside doing training exercises, traveling around a lot. 79 00:07:12,660 --> 00:07:17,420 and then the things I was doing, you know, I had to train to keep up with all the cool guys. I was 80 00:07:17,420 --> 00:07:22,600 not a cool guy, but I had to train to keep up with all the SEALs and all the other guys. And so I did 81 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,200 a lot of those same exercises with them, with the helicopters and the Humvees and the shooting and 82 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:32,440 everything. They are called high-risk evolutions. And that's because the unfortunate reality is 83 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,520 sometimes people die during those training exercises. And so just kind of reflecting on that, 84 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,380 seeing where the Navy was taking me as well. 85 00:07:40,660 --> 00:07:42,680 You can't, if you want a quote unquote 86 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:44,240 successful career in the Navy, 87 00:07:44,420 --> 00:07:46,280 you have to go back to like Big Navy. 88 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,540 You have to go back to the fleet as we called it 89 00:07:48,540 --> 00:07:50,620 and do a tour with Big Navy 90 00:07:50,620 --> 00:07:52,940 to kind of get promoted up the ranks and everything. 91 00:07:53,300 --> 00:07:54,080 If you don't care about that, 92 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,200 you can stick around in these very like niche communities. 93 00:07:56,620 --> 00:07:58,420 But Big Navy was pushing me back 94 00:07:58,420 --> 00:07:59,680 into like the regular Navy. 95 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,080 I was slated, I actually had orders 96 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,300 to go back to Hawaii for a tour of duty there. 97 00:08:05,300 --> 00:08:10,860 I was at middle management, right? So I was a chief petty officer, E7, so senior enlisted. 98 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:17,740 And that meant I was dealing with more people problems than technical problems. And that comes 99 00:08:17,740 --> 00:08:22,540 with its own sort of fund, we'll call it. But I was really fed up with just the bureaucracy 100 00:08:22,540 --> 00:08:29,380 of the Navy as well. So you have the family, you have the lower risk tolerance, you have the 101 00:08:29,380 --> 00:08:34,280 middle management bureaucracy that I was dealing with. And then lastly, it just pays better on the 102 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:39,200 outside and I saw an opportunity with software engineering. And I had a friend that was actually 103 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:44,220 from my unit, went to Microsoft and he's like, oh yeah, Gary, come here. If you do half the work 104 00:08:44,220 --> 00:08:50,260 that you do now, you're going to just absolutely destroy everybody and crush it. And not to toot 105 00:08:50,260 --> 00:08:54,300 my own horn, but that's kind of what happened. You know, showed up and started performing well 106 00:08:54,300 --> 00:08:59,760 and above my peers just by showing up on time, doing what was asked, which was kind of my blowing 107 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,060 from a certain perspective that that was not the norm. 108 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:10,580 I can imagine that that's, you know, bringing that discipline with you is a huge benefit. 109 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:15,540 When you, so you were within Microsoft, it was Azure and machine learning. 110 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:16,020 Is that right? 111 00:09:16,680 --> 00:09:18,620 Well, I started off actually in 0365. 112 00:09:18,620 --> 00:09:24,960 So on the Exchange team, we were the first team that when the data center cut over the 113 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:29,740 racks, so the actual physical server racks, we were the foundational, some people call 114 00:09:29,740 --> 00:09:32,740 substrate, but it was like the foundational bits of Exchange. 115 00:09:33,340 --> 00:09:34,340 And we managed those. 116 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,900 So we would deploy the deployment framework, the networking framework, the core database 117 00:09:38,900 --> 00:09:44,140 framework, and a number of other kind of like very, very base level fundamental requirements 118 00:09:44,140 --> 00:09:45,440 for Exchange itself. 119 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:46,640 And I did that for about a year. 120 00:09:46,900 --> 00:09:53,180 And then I transitioned to Azure Machine Learning infrastructure team, where we managed the 121 00:09:53,180 --> 00:09:56,900 Kubernetes cluster that handled all the Azure Machine Learning work. 122 00:09:56,900 --> 00:10:08,360 And was there, I mean, here too, maybe there's a connection, maybe there isn't, but Intel, some would call that surveillance, you know, you tell me in certain aspects. 123 00:10:08,380 --> 00:10:08,980 It definitely can be. 124 00:10:08,980 --> 00:10:24,280 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. To building machine learning infrastructure, which, you know, as we've seen, I mean, you were long gone, but I'm thinking about Microsoft being pressured into canceling, I believe, their contract with Israeli intelligence. 125 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:39,320 So not to overdraw that point, but was there sort of an observation, I wonder, that what you were building and operating within Navy Intel and then Microsoft, dramatically different, virtually the same? 126 00:10:39,460 --> 00:10:49,660 Any sort of takeaways as you look back on that in terms of, OK, you know, we're building machinery of centralization and surveillance or not so much? 127 00:10:50,540 --> 00:10:52,480 Yeah, I mean, I think there's definitely an aspect to it. 128 00:10:52,900 --> 00:10:56,340 As you understand, being at Microsoft, there's so many verticals, though, right? 129 00:10:56,460 --> 00:11:03,040 So it didn't dawn on me that I was directly building, you know, the apparatus that will control and surveil everyone. 130 00:11:03,540 --> 00:11:06,180 But I was working on government contracts, right? 131 00:11:06,180 --> 00:11:20,880 So if you remember the news around JEDI in the 2019 timeframe, it was this contract through the DOD to do a private cloud, a sovereign cloud, whatever you want to call it for the Department of Defense or now Department of War. 132 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,680 But yeah, that was sort of the project that I was assigned to and tasked to. 133 00:11:24,820 --> 00:11:28,700 So I knew full well, and it was really the easiest bridge, right? 134 00:11:28,700 --> 00:11:42,020 I don't know if I would have gotten hired into Microsoft without having the cleared background that was required to work on that project, or at least, you know, not as confident that I would have because I would end up having to live somewhere else that is not Virginia. 135 00:11:43,100 --> 00:11:43,700 Right, right. 136 00:11:44,340 --> 00:11:55,240 Well, so having built systems both in public sector, private sector, what's your take when someone says, you know, that trope, if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear? 137 00:11:55,240 --> 00:12:01,160 What's actually wrong with that argument from an operational perspective, not just philosophically? 138 00:12:01,420 --> 00:12:07,480 What has come to be your perspective on how one maintains privacy and what puts it at risk? 139 00:12:09,380 --> 00:12:11,780 From an operational perspective, that's interesting. 140 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,160 Well, the first thing that comes to mind is the term OPSEC. 141 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:21,640 That is something that is maybe known outside the military, but within the military is a very, very well-known thing. 142 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,200 and it's more of the, 143 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:27,040 it stands for operational security. 144 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:28,520 So that's why I bring it up. 145 00:12:28,980 --> 00:12:31,860 And it's basically the information that you leak 146 00:12:31,860 --> 00:12:35,860 that you might think is sort of benign and negligible, 147 00:12:36,300 --> 00:12:40,220 but when aggregated or when overlaid 148 00:12:40,220 --> 00:12:43,120 with other open source information, if you would, 149 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,060 becomes a very, very clear picture 150 00:12:45,060 --> 00:12:46,840 as to like who you are, what you are, 151 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:48,720 what you do, where your family is, et cetera. 152 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:50,520 So I think a lot about OPSEC, 153 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:52,140 There was tons of training on OPSEC. 154 00:12:52,820 --> 00:12:54,960 It was anywhere from, hey, you're overseas. 155 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,860 Don't create a habit necessarily overseas, right? 156 00:12:59,900 --> 00:13:17,560 So if you're overseas and you're in a questionable, hostile environment, right, where it may or may not be hostile, but there might be people watching you, creating patterns that are easily recognizable, like going to the same coffee shop every morning along the same route every morning from your hotel on your way to the embassy or whatever. 157 00:13:18,180 --> 00:13:20,480 That was kind of, hey, you shouldn't do that. 158 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:36,420 Another thing was as simply as posting on Facebook, right? And this is a big thing with a lot of the units that were more sensitive was, hey, it might not be you posting on Facebook, but make sure your wife knows not to post on Facebook that you're gone for the next three months on a deployment. 159 00:13:36,980 --> 00:13:45,480 Because when you start to see all the wives of this one unit posting at the same time, et cetera, et cetera, now there's a very, very clear open picture for that. 160 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:51,740 I think the sensitivity of that is pretty obvious for a military unit. 161 00:13:52,140 --> 00:14:04,860 But if you just take that from an individual perspective, a lot of times individuals are, you might feel like you're not targeted, but it comes down to sort of the lowest hanging fruit. 162 00:14:04,860 --> 00:14:09,800 right you especially see that with like cyber criminals or in general just like a cyber security 163 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:15,280 um you know tactic is you do a scan of the network and then you identify the things that 164 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,880 are the weakest right um same thought where hey you don't have to outrun the bear you just have 165 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:25,300 to outrun your friends and and so very very similar thought in the digital domain where 166 00:14:25,300 --> 00:14:31,860 you know you might be comfortable sharing whatever um and if your kids pictures of your kids 167 00:14:31,860 --> 00:14:34,500 Checking into locations, if anyone does that anymore. 168 00:14:34,500 --> 00:14:34,780 Yeah. 169 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:35,400 Yep. 170 00:14:35,500 --> 00:14:41,380 But the second that you do become a high enough profile that somebody cares, now that is all 171 00:14:41,380 --> 00:14:41,860 out there. 172 00:14:42,220 --> 00:14:44,900 And it's not so much that you don't want it out there, right? 173 00:14:44,940 --> 00:14:49,780 This whole, like, I have nothing to hide, but it's what's the value that you gain out 174 00:14:49,780 --> 00:14:50,180 of that, right? 175 00:14:50,240 --> 00:15:04,611 So from an operational perspective it like hey what value am I gaining from checking into this location and broadcasting to the world that hey I in Nashville Tennessee this week There some value right Especially if you a more public figure 176 00:15:05,531 --> 00:15:09,751 But for most people, I don't see any value in sort of geotagging anything. 177 00:15:09,931 --> 00:15:12,791 And it comes by just a default, really. 178 00:15:12,951 --> 00:15:14,811 Like it's a default thing to just tag everything. 179 00:15:15,971 --> 00:15:15,991 Yes. 180 00:15:16,371 --> 00:15:21,251 And I think so many systems, so many consumer applications, the Facebooks, meta more broadly, 181 00:15:21,911 --> 00:15:24,191 the default behavior is to share. 182 00:15:24,291 --> 00:15:27,771 Right. And maybe that's maybe that fits into the category of a dark pattern. 183 00:15:27,771 --> 00:15:35,171 But I think to your point, it becomes the default behavior, becomes the least friction that you can experience in these apps. 184 00:15:35,171 --> 00:15:43,111 And therefore, you're sharing tremendous amounts of data, which, you know, we all we all know sort of the stories of breaches and where that ends up. 185 00:15:43,111 --> 00:16:00,991 If we take the two together, if we take public sector intel and we sort of zoom out and look at, you know, NSA and a lot of the nefarious programs and things that we've learned before, during and after the Snowden revelations and we look at big tech. 186 00:16:00,991 --> 00:16:13,111 Can those systems be reformed or are they fundamentally broken in terms of what perhaps once was an admirable, noble claim to use of intel? 187 00:16:13,291 --> 00:16:16,951 But what I think, tell me if you disagree, is now widespread abuse. 188 00:16:17,271 --> 00:16:19,931 Yeah, I'm not sure about reforming the systems themselves. 189 00:16:20,551 --> 00:16:22,711 I think it comes down to the incentives. 190 00:16:22,891 --> 00:16:25,411 As with most things, it's the incentive. 191 00:16:25,411 --> 00:16:36,091 And at least in my observation, it seems like the incentive has become to data harvest as many people as possible and then sell that to secondary markets. 192 00:16:36,691 --> 00:16:41,511 You know, the dark part of the secondary markets is you're not just selling to advertisers, right? 193 00:16:41,531 --> 00:16:53,351 You're selling to an advertiser that is then turning around with a public partner or public private partnership that is, you know, doing some sort of data brokerage on the backside for, you know, governmental purposes. 194 00:16:53,351 --> 00:17:09,971 I think that incentive is perverse. I think there's also the incentive for trapping everyone sort of in their data silos. You know, like if you're already on some platform, we'll call it Google Drive or iCloud or whatever. 195 00:17:09,971 --> 00:17:17,431 there's this sort of incentive to keep you there and people that are less technical are very very 196 00:17:17,431 --> 00:17:22,431 hesitant to like change anything right especially if they've already figured out all the buttons and 197 00:17:22,431 --> 00:17:25,871 all the widgets and everything like that and they're like oh you mean i gotta learn this new 198 00:17:25,871 --> 00:17:30,411 thing it's like if you've ever had a friend that went from like an iphone to android or vice versa 199 00:17:30,411 --> 00:17:35,351 it can be a pretty like mind-blowing experience because now you have this whole cognitive friction 200 00:17:35,351 --> 00:17:37,571 of doing something differently. 201 00:17:38,191 --> 00:17:39,911 And back to the point of those defaults. 202 00:17:40,311 --> 00:17:42,292 So I guess back to your original question of like, 203 00:17:42,331 --> 00:17:44,252 do you think the systems could be reformed? 204 00:17:44,871 --> 00:17:47,571 I think that's the same question as to like, 205 00:17:47,611 --> 00:17:48,451 whether you think, you know, 206 00:17:48,471 --> 00:17:50,611 the federal government should be reformed, right? 207 00:17:50,911 --> 00:17:53,691 I often think about Jeff Booth's assertion around, 208 00:17:54,471 --> 00:17:56,252 you know, you can't change a system from within. 209 00:17:56,512 --> 00:17:58,971 You have to take your time and your energy and your focus 210 00:17:58,971 --> 00:18:03,331 and start dedicating it to a separate parallel system. 211 00:18:03,951 --> 00:18:08,252 But again, the first people that do that are going to have a lot of friction. 212 00:18:08,611 --> 00:18:10,431 It's not easy to do. 213 00:18:10,931 --> 00:18:12,151 But I do see hope, right? 214 00:18:12,231 --> 00:18:13,992 And it's a slow, long grind. 215 00:18:13,992 --> 00:18:30,752 But data sovereignty, as I call it, or data superiority, if you want to put it in like a military lens along the lines of air and space superiority, I think that comes over time with people taking back their individual data sovereignty. 216 00:18:30,752 --> 00:18:38,532 So it's not going to be that the systems are reformed. I think the systems will slowly be starved, but there's still a lot of cattle out there feeding them. 217 00:18:38,532 --> 00:18:56,671 Yeah, well said. You last week on the on the heels of I think was a terrific Bitcoin Veterans Summit made a public appeal to a Tennessee elected official with regard to privacy. 218 00:18:56,671 --> 00:19:08,532 Tell us a bit more about that. And then let's talk about whether legislation can actually create or protect privacy. What's your take there? 219 00:19:08,532 --> 00:19:20,331 Yeah, interesting. So to put context on this, this was the Speaker of the House of Tennessee, Cameron Sexton, came out and did just an opening welcome message for the Bitcoin Veterans Summit at Bitcoin Park there. 220 00:19:21,032 --> 00:19:29,111 And in the conversation prior to going up there, we kind of just discussed some brief things, but the Samurai Wallet case was something that I sort of brought up. 221 00:19:30,231 --> 00:19:39,292 And when Speaker Sexton got up there, he kind of went on to talk about how Tennessee understands privacy and understands this and their number one state for federalism. 222 00:19:39,471 --> 00:19:45,671 And there's some billboard with the guy's face on it that talks about how they're the most conservative legislator in the United States and this, that, or the other. 223 00:19:45,671 --> 00:19:51,911 So after the event, his staff actually reached back out through some channels to learn more. 224 00:19:52,131 --> 00:19:59,651 He was interested in learning more about what this digital privacy thing was and have some more suggestions or topics to discuss. 225 00:19:59,891 --> 00:20:07,532 So I saw that as an opportunity to, if I'm going to inform this speaker, it'd be good to inform as many people as possible. 226 00:20:07,851 --> 00:20:12,992 And so I started and put to, not put to pen exactly, but put to digital pen this open letter. 227 00:20:12,992 --> 00:20:16,111 that really focused on Tennessee, but I think it's applicable, right? 228 00:20:16,151 --> 00:20:20,071 It had a very intended audience, but it's sort of applicable to anything, 229 00:20:20,191 --> 00:20:24,891 any other jurisdiction that might care about their citizens. 230 00:20:24,891 --> 00:20:27,252 It might care about the digital privacy of their citizens. 231 00:20:28,591 --> 00:20:33,631 We have pretty well-established case law for code being speech, right? 232 00:20:33,651 --> 00:20:35,571 If you look back to the 90s and the crypto wars there, 233 00:20:36,012 --> 00:20:37,451 I was not around, maybe you were. 234 00:20:38,052 --> 00:20:42,971 But some precedence was set there that I think is some very strong precedence 235 00:20:42,971 --> 00:20:50,651 that we can reference and just the Fourth Amendment of no search or seizure, no unwarranted 236 00:20:50,651 --> 00:20:51,351 search or seizure. 237 00:20:51,951 --> 00:20:56,231 You combine those things and privacy is really a human right here. 238 00:20:56,351 --> 00:20:59,851 And so the appeal was largely made to the Tennessee legislator. 239 00:21:00,191 --> 00:21:04,292 And my understanding is he's got some sway in some other circles with the Republican 240 00:21:04,292 --> 00:21:05,371 party and all that. 241 00:21:05,691 --> 00:21:11,351 So I took that opportunity to pen it and basically lay out the case for why privacy, why the 242 00:21:11,351 --> 00:21:16,911 tools for privacy and specifically samurai wallet should not be prosecuted and how i think and how i 243 00:21:16,911 --> 00:21:21,691 hope that tennessee could lead the way as a codifying you know these digital privacy rights 244 00:21:21,691 --> 00:21:27,231 so like put something in the tennessee constitution or in the legislation that really really establishes 245 00:21:27,231 --> 00:21:34,451 that your digital person will not be searched or seized without your consent um that being said 246 00:21:34,451 --> 00:21:39,971 nobody's coming to save us there is no you know there's no savior here that's going to pass some 247 00:21:39,971 --> 00:21:44,272 law magically. At the end of the day, the Constitution is sort of a dated document. It's 248 00:21:44,272 --> 00:21:50,451 just words on paper, right? But it's an idea that we can base our thoughts and our actions around, 249 00:21:50,772 --> 00:21:56,052 and most importantly, our actions. So while I'm somewhat hopeful and optimistic, just because 250 00:21:56,052 --> 00:22:02,032 there are politicians out there that seem to care about this or seem to understand that it is a 251 00:22:02,032 --> 00:22:06,391 fundamental human right for privacy, I think really at the end of the day, we're going to 252 00:22:06,391 --> 00:22:11,171 have to create the tools that enable this by default, right? I was talking with somebody and 253 00:22:11,171 --> 00:22:18,252 they pointed out the case that privacy, digital privacy specifically is legal protection, right? 254 00:22:19,471 --> 00:22:24,171 You know, if your data, if your contract, if your business dealings or your personal dealings 255 00:22:24,171 --> 00:22:29,851 are not exposed to the legal system because you use them in a private manner and you're able to 256 00:22:29,851 --> 00:22:36,231 settle and moderate and, you know, handle those dealings in a private fashion, you never have to 257 00:22:36,231 --> 00:22:42,451 get the state involved, right? If two willing participants engage in a peer-to-peer contract 258 00:22:42,451 --> 00:22:48,231 and they're able to settle that outside of the existing system, that's where privacy is 259 00:22:48,231 --> 00:22:53,792 protecting them from legal ramifications. It's protecting them from absurd legal costs. It's 260 00:22:53,792 --> 00:22:59,851 protecting them from elevated legal cases that go above and beyond. So I think there's an 261 00:22:59,851 --> 00:23:04,391 opportunity with cryptography and the mathematics and this digital revolution that we live in within 262 00:23:04,391 --> 00:23:06,451 the Bitcoin, Nostra, FreedomTech, 263 00:23:06,591 --> 00:23:07,651 broader FreedomTech world, 264 00:23:07,792 --> 00:23:12,171 where we can develop and craft the tools 265 00:23:12,171 --> 00:23:14,931 that allow us to more specifically outline 266 00:23:14,931 --> 00:23:16,411 the terms of contracts 267 00:23:16,411 --> 00:23:18,731 or more specifically outline things, right? 268 00:23:18,831 --> 00:23:21,052 And you can get into these, you know, 269 00:23:21,091 --> 00:23:23,492 web of trust, reputation-based systems. 270 00:23:24,171 --> 00:23:26,471 You mix that with, you know, advanced technology 271 00:23:26,471 --> 00:23:27,671 like Miniscript on Bitcoin, 272 00:23:27,792 --> 00:23:30,072 where you can kind of predefine conditional contracts 273 00:23:30,072 --> 00:23:32,312 directly within the Bitcoin protocol itself. 274 00:23:32,312 --> 00:23:46,971 And if we're conducting business and there's some issue, but we've already outlined that in whatever smart contract or whatever cryptographically guaranteed or trust minimized way for the technology that we're using. 275 00:23:46,971 --> 00:23:49,492 and we can maybe outsource that to, you know, 276 00:23:49,611 --> 00:23:51,792 I don't want to say a trusted third party, 277 00:23:52,371 --> 00:23:54,471 reputationally trusted third parties 278 00:23:54,471 --> 00:23:56,211 to sign on behalf of, 279 00:23:56,812 --> 00:23:58,992 it's called the Oracle problem a lot of times 280 00:23:58,992 --> 00:24:00,451 and you see it commonly referred to 281 00:24:00,451 --> 00:24:01,711 with discrete log contracts, 282 00:24:01,831 --> 00:24:03,471 which is a fancy way of saying we're doing a bet. 283 00:24:04,312 --> 00:24:05,851 And so if there are these, 284 00:24:06,091 --> 00:24:08,591 this reputation that's built around keys 285 00:24:08,591 --> 00:24:10,072 and you can create, you know, 286 00:24:10,131 --> 00:24:11,331 a reputation around a key, 287 00:24:11,451 --> 00:24:13,171 that key can then be used as an Oracle 288 00:24:13,171 --> 00:24:15,911 for a contract mediation or dispute, 289 00:24:15,911 --> 00:24:21,851 you know resolution um you don't ever have to get the state involved right if there is a way to 290 00:24:21,851 --> 00:24:25,711 enforce these things digitally and at the end of the day everything digitally is a boolean it's a 291 00:24:25,711 --> 00:24:31,252 one or a zero right um so if you can enforce and design business deals or business structures 292 00:24:31,252 --> 00:24:37,072 that are digitally native first and foremost and there's always a boolean outcome i think you can 293 00:24:37,072 --> 00:24:43,431 protect yourself from legal ramifications by participating in those systems wonderfully said 294 00:24:43,431 --> 00:24:57,252 And you, in doing that, Gary brought out a key point that I wanted to dig into, which is I often think of Larry Lessig, who's, I believe, still a Harvard professor. 295 00:24:57,532 --> 00:25:01,711 He's written at length about so many things. 296 00:25:01,772 --> 00:25:04,231 He created the Creative Commons license and so on and so forth. 297 00:25:04,231 --> 00:25:07,351 But he has a book called Code is Law. 298 00:25:07,351 --> 00:25:18,752 And this so often comes to me. He refers to East Coast Code, legislature, legislation, legislation, excuse me, and West Coast Code software and the tension that exists. 299 00:25:18,931 --> 00:25:27,792 And so where I'm going with that, for someone who almost certainly isn't as technically deep as you are, we've touched on legislation. 300 00:25:28,252 --> 00:25:33,252 You've drawn out some crucial points about assurances through cryptography. 301 00:25:33,252 --> 00:25:39,591 So in essence, what's the difference between encrypted comms and merely private comms? 302 00:25:39,752 --> 00:25:53,911 So the legislative legislation that might ensure or not private or privacy versus encryption, which utterly guarantees it short of, you know, some breakthrough in quantum computing. 303 00:25:53,911 --> 00:26:06,772 Yeah. So I think immediately about the Cypherpunk Manifesto and the assertion there and where it basically states that privacy is the ability to selectively reveal oneself to the world. 304 00:26:07,451 --> 00:26:16,072 And so if we kind of dissect private comms versus encrypted comms, I think encrypted communications are a version of private communications, right? 305 00:26:16,072 --> 00:26:23,891 So private communications means the message is going to the intended recipient without it being exposed to anybody else unless you so desire. 306 00:26:24,711 --> 00:26:30,871 The problem with that, right, is the three people can hold a secret as long as two are dead is sort of the issue there. 307 00:26:30,992 --> 00:26:37,731 So you might not want to reveal the contents of those communications, but the party you're sending it to might. 308 00:26:37,911 --> 00:26:42,591 And that's a risk whether it's encrypted or private via physical snail mail or not. 309 00:26:42,591 --> 00:26:49,752 But encrypted comms, I think, are just directly applicable to the digital space, right? 310 00:26:49,792 --> 00:26:54,512 If you want private comms, you know, it is a felony to open somebody else's mail, right? 311 00:26:54,591 --> 00:26:56,312 That is a felony charge. 312 00:26:56,312 --> 00:27:10,231 And if you look back into the history of the post office, the post office is one of the most based privacy forward organizations to exist where they were the key communications platform for revolutionaries, right? 313 00:27:10,292 --> 00:27:12,072 Was the United States Postal Service. 314 00:27:12,591 --> 00:27:17,391 And so there are very, very strong legal protections for the privacy of your mail. 315 00:27:18,371 --> 00:27:19,431 It's a felony. 316 00:27:19,891 --> 00:27:23,371 They come down hard on you if you're going to open or tamper with anybody's mail. 317 00:27:23,951 --> 00:27:25,851 So private comms could be just that, right? 318 00:27:25,951 --> 00:27:28,651 You could be using the traditional physical snail mail. 319 00:27:29,371 --> 00:27:32,471 You could be having a conversation away from other people, right? 320 00:27:33,671 --> 00:27:41,572 But encrypted comms, I think, is probably a version of private comms in modernity, right? 321 00:27:41,572 --> 00:27:44,052 where you, there's probably, 322 00:27:44,532 --> 00:27:47,951 I think one of the biggest like things 323 00:27:47,951 --> 00:27:49,331 you could think of the difference 324 00:27:49,331 --> 00:27:50,891 is with private comms, 325 00:27:50,931 --> 00:27:52,072 whether I'm writing you a letter or whatever, 326 00:27:52,431 --> 00:27:55,272 is I have to trust some other parties 327 00:27:55,272 --> 00:27:57,091 not to tamper with it, not to mess with it. 328 00:27:57,331 --> 00:27:58,711 I have to trust that nobody's pointing, 329 00:27:58,891 --> 00:28:00,052 you know, a long range microphone 330 00:28:00,052 --> 00:28:02,911 at our conversation out on the side of the building. 331 00:28:04,012 --> 00:28:07,091 Whereas in encrypted comms, 332 00:28:07,211 --> 00:28:09,671 you have mathematical guarantees 333 00:28:09,671 --> 00:28:13,731 that the only person able to decipher that communication 334 00:28:13,731 --> 00:28:17,391 and view that communication is the holder of the key, right? 335 00:28:17,431 --> 00:28:19,871 Or whatever key you're using to do that encryption. 336 00:28:20,512 --> 00:28:22,371 That's not to say that they can't decrypt it 337 00:28:22,371 --> 00:28:23,312 and then publish it wherever, 338 00:28:23,812 --> 00:28:26,711 but it becomes a lot more secure. 339 00:28:27,492 --> 00:28:29,012 You know, it becomes a lot more private 340 00:28:29,012 --> 00:28:32,831 than your traditional forms of private communication 341 00:28:32,831 --> 00:28:34,971 because to my knowledge, 342 00:28:34,971 --> 00:28:37,091 no amount of physical or kinetic energy 343 00:28:37,091 --> 00:28:38,471 can break modern encryption. 344 00:28:38,792 --> 00:28:38,992 Yes. 345 00:28:38,992 --> 00:29:01,151 And I think that perhaps then takes us naturally to, with the backdrop of centralized systems, with the, I hope, reemergence and deeper understanding at the legislature as to the importance of our First and Fourth Amendment enshrined protections. 346 00:29:01,532 --> 00:29:02,851 Let's jump to this. 347 00:29:02,851 --> 00:29:09,591 So Bitcoin specifically and FreedomTech more broadly, people will use the term permissionless. 348 00:29:10,532 --> 00:29:21,691 So, again, for those perhaps not as deeply entrenched, what does that actually mean in practice if someone is trying to check out of the surveillance machine, avoid debanking? 349 00:29:21,951 --> 00:29:23,992 Like what does permissionless mean in practice? 350 00:29:23,992 --> 00:29:40,431 I think a permissionless means in practice, if you have the bare, we'll call them resources to participate. In the instance of Bitcoin, it's the internet and software. And it's not even the internet, right? You can participate in Bitcoin with a pen and a paper and some dice. 351 00:29:40,431 --> 00:29:51,032 So I think it's more of, in practice, it's the ability to not involve anyone else, but still be able to use the technology. 352 00:29:51,651 --> 00:30:06,783 So I can go sit in my cave and I can create a 256 number And now I have a Bitcoin private key that I can you know do all the math by hand if I truly wanted to Now I not crazy enough to do that 353 00:30:06,783 --> 00:30:08,183 Maybe you, not me, but you. 354 00:30:09,423 --> 00:30:17,483 But I see permissionless in practice being at the end of the day in like in the worst possible 355 00:30:17,483 --> 00:30:25,743 case scenario you have the ability to yourself go through the arduous process of you know exiting 356 00:30:25,743 --> 00:30:31,283 from whatever that is or or conducting business in whatever system this is without needing to 357 00:30:31,283 --> 00:30:37,823 involve involve anybody else um it makes me think a lot about uh interactive versus non-interactive 358 00:30:37,823 --> 00:30:43,503 protocols when it comes to like cryptography and just in general um interactive meaning like we 359 00:30:43,503 --> 00:30:49,163 have to exchange some messages to do this cryptography. And non-interactive meaning I can 360 00:30:49,163 --> 00:30:56,483 just do this myself, right? And that's, you know, you could do that in a number of ways. I think 361 00:30:56,483 --> 00:31:02,003 about, you know, a one-time pad, which is a way of like doing a specific type of encryption. I don't 362 00:31:02,003 --> 00:31:07,563 need anybody else to encrypt something that way. I will need to give you that, you know, that code 363 00:31:07,563 --> 00:31:12,303 for you to decrypt it. But I can sort of participate in this without needing anyone else involved. 364 00:31:12,303 --> 00:31:15,643 much in the same way if I'm doing the Noster thing. 365 00:31:16,083 --> 00:31:17,903 I can generate this private key 366 00:31:17,903 --> 00:31:19,643 completely offline by myself 367 00:31:19,643 --> 00:31:21,743 and I can create and sign messages 368 00:31:21,743 --> 00:31:25,763 that once broadcast or not even broadcast 369 00:31:25,763 --> 00:31:27,823 because I can send it just to one person. 370 00:31:28,243 --> 00:31:29,083 But once it's sent, 371 00:31:29,083 --> 00:31:31,863 the guarantees of the technology, 372 00:31:32,043 --> 00:31:34,063 the assurances of that technology, 373 00:31:34,563 --> 00:31:36,883 whether it's the authenticity or the verifiability, 374 00:31:37,323 --> 00:31:39,223 don't require anybody else to be involved, right? 375 00:31:39,263 --> 00:31:40,723 It's just math at the end of the day. 376 00:31:41,263 --> 00:31:42,103 And so I think in practice, 377 00:31:42,103 --> 00:31:50,563 a lot of the permissionless technology is, it means that people have less of a reliance 378 00:31:50,563 --> 00:31:56,763 on somebody else. You know, you do have a reliance on knowledge, perhaps, or software to make it 379 00:31:56,763 --> 00:32:04,123 easier, but nobody else need be involved for you to do the business. Yeah. Intermediaries, gatekeepers, 380 00:32:04,123 --> 00:32:07,483 There's no VP of no, you know. 381 00:32:07,743 --> 00:32:08,463 VP of no. 382 00:32:08,863 --> 00:32:13,523 Yeah, which we've all encountered either in private life or professional life. 383 00:32:15,443 --> 00:32:21,483 I think that then is a great basis to shift. 384 00:32:21,583 --> 00:32:25,263 And I'd love to get you to tell us more, Gary, about Bitcoin veterans. 385 00:32:25,263 --> 00:32:33,963 And so, you know, my intro, my tee up for this is Bitcoin veterans connect service members to Bitcoin and the possibility and the mission. 386 00:32:34,123 --> 00:32:40,983 These are people who've been inside these institutions that we've referenced, who understand how they actually work. 387 00:32:41,483 --> 00:32:54,783 In addition to telling us more about the organization, I wonder, does this make those veterans, those service members more receptive to the sovereignty message of Bitcoin or FreedomTech? 388 00:32:55,243 --> 00:32:59,383 Or is it sometimes cognitive dissonance to be overcome? 389 00:32:59,383 --> 00:33:06,403 hmm i think my my one-liner for like what is bitcoin veteran veterans is you know we're 390 00:33:06,403 --> 00:33:11,783 educating the warrior class on bitcoin right so there's this class of knuckle dragging meat-eating 391 00:33:11,783 --> 00:33:16,083 people uh that are not necessarily super technical but they still need to understand they still need 392 00:33:16,083 --> 00:33:21,203 the tools and to the why behind this this bitcoin mission that we all find ourselves on 393 00:33:21,203 --> 00:33:28,543 um as far as the sovereignty aspect um i don't know if it's necessarily the the sovereignty but 394 00:33:28,543 --> 00:33:38,503 But it is the, at least for myself, and I think I could speak for a large number of the Bitcoin veterans, but it is the ability to do what we signed up to do or what we thought we were going to do, right? 395 00:33:38,503 --> 00:33:45,103 So, you know, you raise your right hand and swear an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. 396 00:33:45,803 --> 00:33:50,203 And the Constitution, like we alluded to earlier, is just a set of ideals, right? 397 00:33:50,203 --> 00:33:58,883 It's these set of principles and ideals that, you know, everybody has these God-given rights and those rights should be taken and defended. 398 00:33:59,723 --> 00:34:10,363 And a lot of us, or at least myself, you know, I was sold on this idea that the best way we were going to spread these ideals was to go fight in the Middle East and drop bombs and kill a bunch of people. 399 00:34:10,363 --> 00:34:15,443 and very quickly into that endeavor, 400 00:34:15,683 --> 00:34:16,643 you come to learn. 401 00:34:16,843 --> 00:34:19,303 And a lot of guys have the cognitive dissonance 402 00:34:19,303 --> 00:34:22,143 where they can't quite face that question 403 00:34:22,143 --> 00:34:23,903 of why were we there? 404 00:34:24,023 --> 00:34:24,723 Why do we do that? 405 00:34:25,123 --> 00:34:26,663 Those guys probably have a harder time 406 00:34:26,663 --> 00:34:28,483 coming around to the Bitcoin message 407 00:34:28,483 --> 00:34:31,163 and the sort of anti-war thesis that it involves. 408 00:34:31,903 --> 00:34:35,043 But a lot of the warriors that do understand that 409 00:34:35,043 --> 00:34:38,283 and do see that there were hard things that we did 410 00:34:38,283 --> 00:34:40,923 that we believed were done in good faith 411 00:34:40,923 --> 00:34:42,503 and a lot of us serve in good faith. 412 00:34:43,003 --> 00:34:46,123 And it's still one of the largest voluntary militaries 413 00:34:46,123 --> 00:34:46,983 in the world. 414 00:34:47,303 --> 00:34:48,643 You know, we signed up to protect people. 415 00:34:49,263 --> 00:34:52,543 We signed up to do well by our fellow man 416 00:34:52,543 --> 00:34:55,963 up until the point of laying our lives down, right? 417 00:34:56,483 --> 00:35:00,023 And this message of Bitcoin becomes a, 418 00:35:01,163 --> 00:35:03,063 to call it a powerful tool is probably an understatement, 419 00:35:03,063 --> 00:35:06,483 but it becomes something that can be leveraged. 420 00:35:06,483 --> 00:35:09,003 and I don't mean leverage in the financial sense, 421 00:35:09,083 --> 00:35:11,123 but it's a tool that you can use now 422 00:35:11,123 --> 00:35:14,043 that you're not just bettering yourself, right? 423 00:35:14,103 --> 00:35:15,823 So, you know, I'm the crazy Bitcoiner, 424 00:35:15,943 --> 00:35:17,883 I'm hodling forever. 425 00:35:18,523 --> 00:35:20,463 And that doesn't just help me, right? 426 00:35:20,823 --> 00:35:23,443 That helps anybody that participates, 427 00:35:23,583 --> 00:35:26,043 anybody that has the desire for sovereignty or freedom. 428 00:35:26,523 --> 00:35:28,543 You know, you come for the number go up 429 00:35:28,543 --> 00:35:30,143 and you stay for the monetary revolution. 430 00:35:30,983 --> 00:35:32,223 And that's because this Bitcoin thing, 431 00:35:32,523 --> 00:35:33,723 whether I'm using it myself 432 00:35:33,723 --> 00:35:36,163 and accruing the value to me, myself, my family, 433 00:35:36,483 --> 00:35:40,743 or I'm accruing as I'm accruing that value or not, 434 00:35:40,863 --> 00:35:40,963 or, 435 00:35:41,143 --> 00:35:44,063 and I'm accruing that value to anybody else participating in this. 436 00:35:44,363 --> 00:35:44,583 You know, 437 00:35:44,603 --> 00:35:46,943 I met somebody through Twitter now X, 438 00:35:47,283 --> 00:35:48,763 this fella in Uganda, 439 00:35:49,083 --> 00:35:49,263 right? 440 00:35:49,283 --> 00:35:49,583 And like, 441 00:35:49,583 --> 00:35:51,523 we just started DMing years ago. 442 00:35:52,663 --> 00:35:53,883 And over the course of time, 443 00:35:53,883 --> 00:35:54,083 this, 444 00:35:54,183 --> 00:35:56,163 this Bitcoin NGU has helped him a ton. 445 00:35:56,843 --> 00:36:00,123 And at certain point he didn't have a keyboard. 446 00:36:00,263 --> 00:36:02,403 He was working on like technical stuff. 447 00:36:02,463 --> 00:36:02,663 And he's like, 448 00:36:02,683 --> 00:36:02,923 Oh yeah, 449 00:36:02,923 --> 00:36:04,323 I paused that because my keyboard broke. 450 00:36:04,383 --> 00:36:04,563 I'm like, 451 00:36:04,603 --> 00:36:04,863 Hey man, 452 00:36:04,903 --> 00:36:05,683 send me a lightning invoice. 453 00:36:05,823 --> 00:36:06,363 I'd love to, 454 00:36:06,363 --> 00:36:11,123 buy you a new keyboard. And so having this technology that allows you to truly uplift 455 00:36:11,123 --> 00:36:18,463 others and protect people just resonates very, very well with veterans, especially when you 456 00:36:18,463 --> 00:36:23,523 look at communities. No matter where you are, your community can benefit from you being a Bitcoiner. 457 00:36:24,123 --> 00:36:27,263 And veterans are very, very involved in the community. You look at a lot of the veteran 458 00:36:27,263 --> 00:36:30,223 service organizations, they're doing a lot of charity and volunteer work and everything. 459 00:36:30,883 --> 00:36:36,163 And so having the means to not just think about myself, but to think about my community and how 460 00:36:36,163 --> 00:36:42,943 I can help them, it feels good. It's a wonderful tool. And I don't have to hurt anybody to do it. 461 00:36:42,943 --> 00:36:50,343 I'm hurting some people, but those people are the users and the time thieves of the fiat system. 462 00:36:50,903 --> 00:36:56,063 And all I'm doing is starving them of my energy while I plow energy into what I believe to be 463 00:36:56,063 --> 00:37:01,643 good and righteous causes. And you can do that at your local level. One of the things that I 464 00:37:01,643 --> 00:37:06,143 talked about at the summit was you as an individual, you might not be the next sailor, 465 00:37:06,163 --> 00:37:12,383 with tons of coins or next OG where you can just wave a hand and millions and millions of dollars 466 00:37:12,383 --> 00:37:18,803 worth of value is moved around. But what you can do is you can frequent the companies and the 467 00:37:18,803 --> 00:37:23,383 businesses in your local area that you believe in because you know the people behind those businesses 468 00:37:23,383 --> 00:37:27,803 are doing well. And even if they never want to receive Bitcoin, just having one dedicated company 469 00:37:27,803 --> 00:37:33,643 or one dedicated customer might be enough to keep them afloat for the next five to 10 years as you 470 00:37:33,643 --> 00:37:36,803 water on rock, just keep around. Hey, do you want some Bitcoin? Hey, do you want some Bitcoin? 471 00:37:37,783 --> 00:37:45,123 So I see that. I want to do local events here where I cook a bunch of brisket, right? Because, 472 00:37:45,203 --> 00:37:48,243 hey, I can afford it because I've been in Bitcoin long enough. So just buy a bunch of briskets, 473 00:37:48,303 --> 00:37:51,503 invite a bunch of people over, and they're like, hey, why are you doing this? And be like, hey, 474 00:37:51,503 --> 00:37:55,983 because Bitcoin's awesome. Maybe you should learn. And I think that positive sentiment, 475 00:37:56,223 --> 00:38:00,083 that positive vibration that you can put out, and it doesn't have to be with brisket or parties or 476 00:38:00,083 --> 00:38:04,183 anything like that. But why not? It ought to be. But why not? It should be. It definitely should be. 477 00:38:05,343 --> 00:38:10,443 But yeah, just like everybody else in their nihilistic caves, we'll see you walking around 478 00:38:10,443 --> 00:38:14,523 with this bright orange light and you're doing well, you're eating healthy, you've got this 479 00:38:14,523 --> 00:38:20,063 vibrant attitude to you. And that is infectious, especially when people have, you know, not a lot 480 00:38:20,063 --> 00:38:27,543 of hope elsewhere. Be the change. Amen, brother. Yeah, veterans are action prone, right? We do the 481 00:38:27,543 --> 00:38:33,143 thing, right? We don't just sit by and do nothing. A lot of us are motivated to get off our asses 482 00:38:33,143 --> 00:38:38,443 and make it happen. And that's been, you know, not to blow sunshine, but that's been my observation 483 00:38:38,443 --> 00:38:44,143 now. I think having attended two of the summits and certainly, you know, met guys like you and 484 00:38:44,143 --> 00:38:51,123 Shane Hazel and other just incredible folks. And it goes to my next question, which is, you know, 485 00:38:51,123 --> 00:38:55,403 so many people see a problem but don't act. 486 00:38:57,303 --> 00:39:01,763 What's your synthesis or distillation, Gary, 487 00:39:01,943 --> 00:39:05,763 of the gap between understanding institutions are broken 488 00:39:05,763 --> 00:39:07,643 and actually doing something about it? 489 00:39:07,783 --> 00:39:10,323 You know, I can imagine based on what you've just talked to 490 00:39:10,323 --> 00:39:13,583 that it is the ingrained discipline and spirit 491 00:39:13,583 --> 00:39:18,323 and capabilities of a veteran in this case. 492 00:39:19,343 --> 00:39:20,803 But even outside of that, 493 00:39:20,803 --> 00:39:33,103 Like, what's what is it? The magic spark? Like, you know, what do you sort of write that down to the difference between sitting on the sidelines, pointing and raising your fist to the sky and getting out there and doing something about it? 494 00:39:33,103 --> 00:39:56,403 You know, I think actually our digital online presence has given a false sense of doing something to a lot of people, right? I think there's a lot of people that will have big followers online and they, you know, they post all the time and it can feel like you're moving the needle forward because this post went viral and had thousands of comments and this, that or the other. 495 00:39:56,403 --> 00:39:59,123 when in reality, you didn't do much, right? 496 00:39:59,183 --> 00:40:01,443 You rearrange some pixels on a screen, 497 00:40:01,603 --> 00:40:07,143 but the actual work beneath that is vaporware, right? 498 00:40:07,143 --> 00:40:10,463 And that's not to discredit these large influencers 499 00:40:10,463 --> 00:40:12,843 with large follower accounts. 500 00:40:13,283 --> 00:40:14,383 There is something to that, 501 00:40:14,443 --> 00:40:15,583 but I think people in general, 502 00:40:16,343 --> 00:40:18,843 the online forum has given a lot of people 503 00:40:18,843 --> 00:40:22,483 a way of expressing angst or anger 504 00:40:22,483 --> 00:40:24,563 or whatever emotion they had 505 00:40:24,563 --> 00:40:28,483 without actually fully resolving or dealing with that in the meat space. 506 00:40:29,003 --> 00:40:33,963 You know, it prevents a lot of people from engaging with others that are like-minded 507 00:40:33,963 --> 00:40:36,423 or have similar shared values. 508 00:40:37,103 --> 00:40:40,843 And, you know, great things happen when men come together in a room, right? 509 00:40:41,243 --> 00:40:43,223 And whether that's for good or for bad, 510 00:40:43,583 --> 00:40:48,983 you don't really get change without the physical space manifesting itself. 511 00:40:49,603 --> 00:40:53,163 So tons of people are just online activists, keyboard warriors. 512 00:40:53,903 --> 00:40:57,863 You know, by myself, I post a lot online on Nostra, random thoughts here and there. 513 00:40:58,303 --> 00:41:03,183 But it doesn't, like you're posting on Nostra, like it might net you a few sats these days, right? 514 00:41:03,203 --> 00:41:05,383 You might earn some small amount of income there. 515 00:41:05,983 --> 00:41:09,143 But you're not going to change anybody's mind. 516 00:41:09,843 --> 00:41:14,223 Text is an inherently flawed communication method, especially for humans. 517 00:41:14,223 --> 00:41:19,043 We have eye contact, body language, tone of voice, all this other stuff. 518 00:41:19,503 --> 00:41:21,023 And you remove all of that with text. 519 00:41:21,023 --> 00:41:35,843 And so you can feel like you're doing something by putting text out there, but really you're not moving the needle at all. And that's where I think the resurgence of third spaces and physically engaging with people, going out and being actually a part of your community. 520 00:41:35,843 --> 00:41:40,823 right so it's one thing to have the opinions online but it's another thing to to go you know 521 00:41:40,823 --> 00:41:45,863 to church on sunday and and talk about that post that somebody was so angry about and replied so 522 00:41:45,863 --> 00:41:50,383 angrily about your comment um i think a lot of people are afraid to sort of engage in the meat 523 00:41:50,383 --> 00:41:54,723 space based on that but they're happy to sit down and type out on a keyboard so i would challenge 524 00:41:54,723 --> 00:41:57,923 like most people like if you post something inflammatory online or you don't even think 525 00:41:57,923 --> 00:42:02,663 it's inflammatory and somebody replies and you know that person in person right in the real world 526 00:42:02,663 --> 00:42:07,703 go get lunch with them and just talk about it and just be like, hey, why did this upset you? Or, 527 00:42:07,743 --> 00:42:12,383 hey, why did you think about that? We don't have enough in-person conversations anymore. 528 00:42:12,643 --> 00:42:17,763 We don't have enough dialogue in person anymore. And I think you can see that reflected somewhat 529 00:42:17,763 --> 00:42:23,623 with the podcast, right? Mediums like this or Joe Rogan, where it's like two people sitting down and 530 00:42:23,623 --> 00:42:30,003 having a conversation, not just a text exchange, has really, really resonated with people. And I 531 00:42:30,003 --> 00:42:33,063 think we could take that to the next level if we just did more in-person things. 532 00:42:34,823 --> 00:42:43,863 Yes, yes. Yeah, I won't dive into a tangent, but I'm thinking of a controversial interview. 533 00:42:44,343 --> 00:42:50,623 Well, I'll just say it. It was Tucker and Nick Fuentes. You know, not to go get into all of that, 534 00:42:50,623 --> 00:42:57,483 but what I admire about that particular style of conversation, and certainly I think they both 535 00:42:57,483 --> 00:43:01,823 benefit from it. But ultimately, these were individuals who had been sniping at each other, 536 00:43:02,143 --> 00:43:09,443 you know, pick your arena, pick your individuals, you know, pick your subject. When two people who 537 00:43:09,443 --> 00:43:14,503 presumably are at odds and perhaps even enemies can sit down and have those conversations, 538 00:43:14,503 --> 00:43:19,123 to your point, I think we all benefit and we need a lot more of that. 539 00:43:20,343 --> 00:43:26,203 If we zoom out, Gary, we've talked about, I think, Bitcoin freedom, tech sovereignty at 540 00:43:26,203 --> 00:43:32,503 the individual level, your career arc so far. We've talked about organizations, certainly Bitcoin 541 00:43:32,503 --> 00:43:39,103 veterans. If we then look at nation states, so you're now a software engineer with a large-scale 542 00:43:39,103 --> 00:43:44,463 Bitcoin miner. You've got Mandarin fluency, your intelligence background that we talked about. 543 00:43:44,763 --> 00:43:51,363 What's going on in your mind at the nation state level with regard to Bitcoin? What is the 544 00:43:51,363 --> 00:43:58,463 desired outcome and what's really at play, do you think? It's a big question. So tackle it however 545 00:43:58,463 --> 00:44:03,203 you feel like. Yeah. And it's honestly hard to say because my focus has been, you know, 546 00:44:03,223 --> 00:44:09,543 I did start very strategic, high level in my career, looking at China and everything like that. 547 00:44:09,883 --> 00:44:16,183 And I've paid somewhat attention to the national stage recently, just being I'm close proximity to 548 00:44:16,183 --> 00:44:23,043 D.C. So I couldn't tell you what's happening on the global stage. And that's by design, my sanity. 549 00:44:23,623 --> 00:44:28,363 Like, we're not wired to know what's happening. I'm sure there's still some control. Yeah, 550 00:44:28,383 --> 00:44:32,263 there's still some threat of China invading Taiwan. There's probably still some conflict 551 00:44:32,263 --> 00:44:36,243 in Ukraine. There's some atrocity in Gaza or somewhere else in the Middle East. 552 00:44:37,403 --> 00:44:41,703 Well, let me reframe it. And I did a poor job of that, perhaps. What do you think or what have you 553 00:44:41,703 --> 00:44:49,463 observed, what are the stakes? Like, what is nation state Bitcoin adoption look like? And then, 554 00:44:49,703 --> 00:45:04,354 you know by all means let let weave a little a bit of mining insight into that What would it look like for a country to succeed by whatever definition at large Bitcoin mining Why is it of strategic importance 555 00:45:04,594 --> 00:45:08,374 I mean, specifically at mining, I think, and I think this is just generally, but 556 00:45:08,374 --> 00:45:14,734 you know, the best, in my opinion, the best form of government, the one that gets out of the way 557 00:45:14,734 --> 00:45:20,134 of innovators and problem solvers. So that was one of the things that I was hopeful with. I did 558 00:45:20,134 --> 00:45:26,434 show up to the polls last election. I wasn't going to, but just getting the giant thousand 559 00:45:26,434 --> 00:45:31,574 pound gorilla that is the federal government off of the industry's back was something worth going 560 00:45:31,574 --> 00:45:37,874 out of my way to participate in this farce of a democracy. I think for mining specifically, 561 00:45:38,994 --> 00:45:43,714 yeah, it's just going to be the nation state that leaves their people be. You could have 562 00:45:43,714 --> 00:45:52,634 forest nation state, you know, half software style mining competitions. But the longer term 563 00:45:52,634 --> 00:45:59,454 mining thesis that I hold is one, if your company that has major overhead, let's say a public 564 00:45:59,454 --> 00:46:04,274 company has to do all this regulatory and compliance stuff, mining is not your best friend 565 00:46:04,274 --> 00:46:08,474 at all. You have a guaranteed revenue that trends to zero with the halvings every four year. 566 00:46:08,474 --> 00:46:14,194 and it is ruthlessly competitive because back to that permissionless tech we were talking about 567 00:46:14,194 --> 00:46:19,114 all you need is energy and the the smallest amount of bandwidth to start bitcoin mining 568 00:46:19,114 --> 00:46:24,314 and you can get off to the races and started you know whether that's a small hydro mine or some 569 00:46:24,314 --> 00:46:30,414 natural gas well that's flared and so along this along the lines of like the nation that gets out 570 00:46:30,414 --> 00:46:35,134 of people's way if the united states would just get out of the way of the mining industry 571 00:46:35,134 --> 00:46:41,334 you know there are tons of people out there looking for abandoned or stranded energy that will 572 00:46:41,334 --> 00:46:47,454 go consume it build out the infrastructure to a point where hey all the consumers around here 573 00:46:47,454 --> 00:46:51,614 are not bitcoin miners anymore they're like people or industry or whatever and that bitcoin 574 00:46:51,614 --> 00:46:56,594 mining will move on so i think we'll continue to see that play out in jurisdictions that allow for 575 00:46:56,594 --> 00:47:02,054 it so that's going to be a lot of good infrastructure build out i think the second wave of bitcoin 576 00:47:02,054 --> 00:47:06,154 mining that we're going to see is the hash rate heating. So if you're not familiar with the heat 577 00:47:06,154 --> 00:47:10,394 punk movement, I highly recommend you reach out to Tyler Stevens out in Denver, have a conversation 578 00:47:10,394 --> 00:47:16,594 with that guy. Huge brain on that guy. And the one snippet I love to quote from his book is, 579 00:47:16,974 --> 00:47:21,994 if we took 1% of comfort heating, meaning the heating we use in our houses or buildings or 580 00:47:21,994 --> 00:47:26,154 whatever, if we took 1% of that energy and dedicated to Bitcoin mining, we would triple 581 00:47:26,154 --> 00:47:31,114 the network hash rate to three zeta hash. And what does that translate to for an individual 582 00:47:31,114 --> 00:47:35,874 in real terms? Like what's the impact of that in a way that perhaps they could understand? 583 00:47:36,454 --> 00:47:42,634 So that means you get paid to heat your home or you get paid to heat your shower is what it means. 584 00:47:43,034 --> 00:47:49,154 It doesn't mean a guaranteed payout, right? But you can pool mine and get some trickle of sats in 585 00:47:49,154 --> 00:47:54,954 and you're not going to, not a lot of locations, you're going to be able to fully subsidize your 586 00:47:54,954 --> 00:48:02,014 energy cost for heating. But I will take 10% subsidy over no subsidy, right? And when I say 587 00:48:02,014 --> 00:48:06,134 subsidy, I don't mean a subsidy in the true sense of it. I just mean I'm getting something else of 588 00:48:06,134 --> 00:48:10,674 value in return for this heat that I'm producing. A waste product, what otherwise is a waste product, 589 00:48:10,774 --> 00:48:15,234 right? Correct. Yeah. The current status quo is you turn on your heat pump or your propane 590 00:48:15,234 --> 00:48:20,974 or your electric coil heater, and you're just burning energy to heat your house. There's no 591 00:48:20,974 --> 00:48:22,714 second byproduct of that. 592 00:48:22,794 --> 00:48:24,354 There's no secondary effect of that. 593 00:48:24,714 --> 00:48:25,774 It's not a closed system. 594 00:48:26,054 --> 00:48:27,134 We have inefficiencies. 595 00:48:27,494 --> 00:48:27,894 It leaks. 596 00:48:28,234 --> 00:48:28,494 Tons. 597 00:48:28,614 --> 00:48:30,114 Yeah, that's a whole other rabbit hole 598 00:48:30,114 --> 00:48:30,974 with the thermodynamics. 599 00:48:31,514 --> 00:48:33,674 But even just with just changing that 600 00:48:33,674 --> 00:48:35,294 to I'm burning energy, 601 00:48:35,554 --> 00:48:37,554 but I'm also getting some Bitcoin 602 00:48:37,554 --> 00:48:39,214 or sacking some sats on the side. 603 00:48:39,594 --> 00:48:41,274 Mind you, there are also no KYC sats. 604 00:48:41,414 --> 00:48:42,514 Like mining is the best way 605 00:48:42,514 --> 00:48:45,054 to acquire private wild sats, 606 00:48:45,154 --> 00:48:45,614 we'll call them, 607 00:48:46,014 --> 00:48:47,594 where they have no attribution 608 00:48:47,594 --> 00:48:48,294 to an individual. 609 00:48:49,234 --> 00:48:50,734 And yeah, I think 610 00:48:50,974 --> 00:48:59,714 the incentives align to where hash rate heating is going to become a serious, serious part of the Bitcoin network as far as hash rate goes. 611 00:48:59,714 --> 00:49:04,874 Because why would I not possibly win a block every time I go to take a hot shower, right? 612 00:49:05,214 --> 00:49:07,974 It's just like, I'm going to pay for the hot water anyway. 613 00:49:08,814 --> 00:49:10,434 I'm not going to turn off the hot water. 614 00:49:10,454 --> 00:49:11,814 Stepping out of that shower and realizing. 615 00:49:13,374 --> 00:49:20,254 Yeah, you could put a disco light in your shower and have it go off if you hit a block and give somebody a heart attack with somebody when they don't realize what's happening. 616 00:49:20,974 --> 00:49:23,014 But yeah, all these processes. 617 00:49:23,894 --> 00:49:23,994 Yeah. 618 00:49:24,074 --> 00:49:28,734 And I think that's, you know, that is we could spend hours and perhaps that I hope we do someday. 619 00:49:30,614 --> 00:49:43,694 I always find it challenging to encapsulate the way in which Bitcoin is this lens that you point toward anything, it seems, and you see it in a new light, you know. 620 00:49:43,694 --> 00:49:50,334 And it just continues to change things that might otherwise be seen as incredibly mundane. 621 00:49:50,814 --> 00:49:53,274 You know, like, OK, how do I heat my house? 622 00:49:53,374 --> 00:49:53,874 You know, important. 623 00:49:54,694 --> 00:50:02,754 But mundane, as you say, becomes effectively a subsidy in a way to acquire freedom money. 624 00:50:03,154 --> 00:50:08,114 From there, Gary, let's talk about sort of takeaways. 625 00:50:08,114 --> 00:50:23,814 And so if there's someone listening who is currently enlisted, they work in government, public sector, defense contracting, maybe their tech surveillance, what's the path from there to where you are? 626 00:50:24,974 --> 00:50:25,114 Yeah. 627 00:50:26,094 --> 00:50:27,054 Open source. 628 00:50:27,334 --> 00:50:28,334 Open source is the path. 629 00:50:28,794 --> 00:50:35,694 There is, you know, one of the firms that I worked at in between Microsoft and this mining gig was a cybersecurity firm. 630 00:50:35,694 --> 00:50:57,794 We were the red team for some government entities, right? Meaning, you know, not hostile actors, but offensive cyber operations sort of things. But during my time there, and really just during my time in the Navy as well, it became really apparent that, you know, this sort of open source hacker culture is very much alive and well in the cybersecurity realm. 631 00:50:57,794 --> 00:51:01,594 So a lot of the cybersecurity folks that are serving in government, right? 632 00:51:01,634 --> 00:51:04,414 And there are a lot of good folks in there that do it for the right reasons. 633 00:51:05,574 --> 00:51:09,074 But they already understand the power that is open source. 634 00:51:09,594 --> 00:51:14,694 You know, one of the products that I was managing at this company, it was a private proprietary product. 635 00:51:14,914 --> 00:51:20,114 We had our own special hardware, but the entire software stack was completely open source, right? 636 00:51:20,114 --> 00:51:30,614 It was using Ansible to build out this entire cyber operations framework that used GitLab, that used Hashcat, which is like a password cracking utility for cyber operations team. 637 00:51:30,954 --> 00:51:36,114 And the whole thing was built from source, from free and open source software. 638 00:51:36,114 --> 00:51:58,414 So the understanding of the ethos, the understanding of the technology, the understanding of information sharing, right? Because that's ultimately what software or open source software is, is I'm sharing code with you. So that way we might both benefit from it, right? The best type of inflation is the inflation of ideas, where I share an idea with you. Now we both have that idea, right? And there are more ideas proliferating through the world. 639 00:51:58,414 --> 00:52:25,674 So there's a lot of folks, I think, in this defense world, and it is very tailored to the technical folks, but they get the promise of open source software. And while they hold these ethos very close to their chest, the incentives are still broken. They can still make gabs and gabs more money working on a private, cleared contract than they might be able to out in the wild, in the private sector instead of the public sector. 640 00:52:25,674 --> 00:52:30,694 so that would be my recommendation is if you're in tech if you're in government um looking to open 641 00:52:30,694 --> 00:52:37,394 source you know it's it's crazy i think even if you even look at like the local government uh layer 642 00:52:37,394 --> 00:52:41,354 there you could probably keep everything open source which first of all i think everything 643 00:52:41,354 --> 00:52:45,274 should be in local government should be open source but there's probably somebody in your 644 00:52:45,274 --> 00:52:49,214 jurisdiction that will go through and organize all your github issues for you for the county 645 00:52:49,214 --> 00:52:52,754 government right like just because they got nothing better to do and they think it's fun 646 00:52:52,754 --> 00:52:53,934 and entertaining to do that. 647 00:52:54,554 --> 00:52:57,514 But we've put all these gates and walls up 648 00:52:57,514 --> 00:52:59,574 between us and our public servants 649 00:52:59,574 --> 00:53:01,594 and the data that is generated. 650 00:53:02,194 --> 00:53:04,194 And I would love to see that torn down. 651 00:53:04,394 --> 00:53:06,094 So if you're in a position to do that 652 00:53:06,094 --> 00:53:08,834 from whatever seat you sit in, 653 00:53:09,194 --> 00:53:11,074 or if you're looking for an opportunity 654 00:53:11,074 --> 00:53:12,014 to break away from that, 655 00:53:12,134 --> 00:53:13,634 look for open source tooling 656 00:53:13,634 --> 00:53:16,074 because there's probably some tool out there 657 00:53:16,074 --> 00:53:18,974 that you can use to do your job better, right? 658 00:53:18,974 --> 00:53:20,354 And become a better public servant 659 00:53:20,354 --> 00:53:21,594 or a contractor or whatever. 660 00:53:21,594 --> 00:53:24,634 but you can get your foot in the door in an open source project. 661 00:53:25,134 --> 00:53:28,354 And really that helps you build this proof of work resume. 662 00:53:29,134 --> 00:53:32,394 When I first tried to get into Bitcoin as an industry 663 00:53:32,394 --> 00:53:35,354 and I was like, oh sweet, I'm gonna go do all this Bitcoin stuff. 664 00:53:35,634 --> 00:53:37,774 I had zero proof of work on my resume. 665 00:53:37,954 --> 00:53:39,334 I had zero GitHub contributions. 666 00:53:39,574 --> 00:53:42,214 I had zero work on any project that mattered 667 00:53:42,214 --> 00:53:43,494 or could be publicly visible. 668 00:53:44,154 --> 00:53:46,934 And so it was really hard in this reputation-based industry 669 00:53:46,934 --> 00:53:49,594 that is Bitcoin to get recognition for that 670 00:53:49,594 --> 00:53:53,634 and to get anybody that would be willing to talk for an hour to see about hiring me. 671 00:53:54,534 --> 00:53:57,174 So if you're looking and you're in the government or you're in contracting, 672 00:53:57,634 --> 00:54:00,154 look for open source projects that you can contribute to. 673 00:54:00,554 --> 00:54:03,114 Do it in an open manner, contribute to that, get involved. 674 00:54:03,514 --> 00:54:06,194 And then you can leverage that as a, hey, I did this thing. 675 00:54:06,414 --> 00:54:07,954 Here's all this open source stuff that I did. 676 00:54:08,334 --> 00:54:10,594 And it is a public, just like the Bitcoin blockchain is public, 677 00:54:10,874 --> 00:54:13,854 it's a publicly viewable ledger of all the things that you've done 678 00:54:13,854 --> 00:54:17,674 and the proof of work that you've committed to drive forward this ethos 679 00:54:17,674 --> 00:54:20,634 in this program that is open source technology. 680 00:54:21,954 --> 00:54:22,054 Fantastic. 681 00:54:22,694 --> 00:54:25,014 And then I'll be sure, of course, it's in the show notes, 682 00:54:25,114 --> 00:54:28,354 but what's your invitation, your call to action, Gary, 683 00:54:28,494 --> 00:54:33,834 as to veterans specifically and Bitcoin veterans as a pathway? 684 00:54:34,774 --> 00:54:38,714 Yeah, the call to veterans is just start, like just learn. 685 00:54:39,574 --> 00:54:42,674 You know, there's a lot of Forex traders I met, 686 00:54:42,734 --> 00:54:45,174 a lot of people that like to try to day trade this, that, or the other, 687 00:54:45,274 --> 00:54:47,174 especially on deployment, they could trade later hours. 688 00:54:47,674 --> 00:54:50,534 So a lot of people might already understand the NGU thing. 689 00:54:51,034 --> 00:54:59,554 But my call to action for veterans is take a deep look at our monetary system, the U.S. dollar, and what it enables. 690 00:54:59,694 --> 00:55:03,814 Be open-minded to hearing that message and just ask questions, right? 691 00:55:03,814 --> 00:55:05,554 And you don't have to ask questions online. 692 00:55:05,654 --> 00:55:07,794 You're going to get a skew of questions on Reddit or whatever. 693 00:55:08,494 --> 00:55:10,234 But reach out to Bitcoin veterans. 694 00:55:10,954 --> 00:55:12,154 We've been where you were. 695 00:55:12,354 --> 00:55:14,214 Many of us serve in very much the same units. 696 00:55:14,834 --> 00:55:16,314 And reach out and just ask the question. 697 00:55:16,314 --> 00:55:23,454 you know if there's something that is blocking you or or or whatever it is i think the most 698 00:55:23,454 --> 00:55:27,454 common one is just not knowing anything about it right there's nothing that really prevents 699 00:55:27,454 --> 00:55:31,514 anybody from getting into bitcoin or learning about bitcoin or using bitcoin except for the 700 00:55:31,514 --> 00:55:36,354 fact that they have no idea what it is or what it does so if you're a veteran out there listening 701 00:55:36,354 --> 00:55:43,274 reach out bitcoinveterans.org you can find me primal.net slash gary i'm open to chatting with 702 00:55:43,274 --> 00:55:47,694 whoever you are, especially if you're a veteran. We'll bring you into the fold. There are tons of 703 00:55:47,694 --> 00:55:52,334 other veterans, whether you're Navy, Air Force, Army, Marines, Coast Guard, whoever it is. 704 00:55:53,354 --> 00:55:57,854 We've got veterans of those services. We've got conventional guys. We've got special operations 705 00:55:57,854 --> 00:56:03,274 guys, officers enlisted, somebody there you will be able to relate to. And you should feel 706 00:56:03,274 --> 00:56:06,074 comfortable asking questions there, right? We're definitely going to make fun of you, 707 00:56:06,154 --> 00:56:10,234 but that's just like veteran culture. You should be used to that. But definitely come in and ask 708 00:56:10,234 --> 00:56:15,514 questions. And there's, you know, the only rules of Bitcoin veteran is no violence and no shit coins. 709 00:56:15,514 --> 00:56:22,354 So outside of that, any questions are welcome. Beautiful. And then last but not least, if we, 710 00:56:23,094 --> 00:56:29,694 having talked about public sector, military, perhaps defense contractors, that sort of category, 711 00:56:30,294 --> 00:56:37,814 the rest of us, we understand centralized systems are broken. We don't know where to start. It's a 712 00:56:37,814 --> 00:56:40,634 It's a big question, a big sort of subject. 713 00:56:40,914 --> 00:56:48,574 But like you did in these two prior parts, Gary, what's your advice to individuals? 714 00:56:48,954 --> 00:56:51,234 What should they be learning or building right now? 715 00:56:52,734 --> 00:56:54,954 The best centralized system is the one you control, right? 716 00:56:56,114 --> 00:57:00,974 And I think anybody has the opportunity to do that in their local area, right? 717 00:57:00,974 --> 00:57:10,154 It's the places and the people that show up consistently with an objective, with a mission, tend to be the one like people just get out of your way, right? 718 00:57:10,254 --> 00:57:12,174 Not a lot of people want to fight friction. 719 00:57:13,174 --> 00:57:18,754 And so even if you're not a veteran, I think getting involved locally, and that doesn't have to be politics, right? 720 00:57:18,794 --> 00:57:25,954 But if you're inclined, you could show up to the Board of Supervisors meeting or the City Council meeting and just make a public comment or just observe or just ask. 721 00:57:25,954 --> 00:57:31,434 But if you don't like that, go find a local charity, go find a church that does outreach. 722 00:57:31,574 --> 00:57:37,314 Tons of churches will do outreach on a regular basis and consistently show up and be a good human being. 723 00:57:37,754 --> 00:57:48,894 Because the inevitable, I think, as we hyperinflate this dollar, is the inevitable is as the Bitcoiners become this elevated social status of, hey, they got a lot of money. 724 00:57:49,294 --> 00:57:51,574 There's a lot of people that dislike that. 725 00:57:52,134 --> 00:57:54,634 And I think it's some negative energy is going to be channeled towards that. 726 00:57:54,634 --> 00:58:04,314 But if you're the individual that is coaching the soccer team for your kids and all the other parents know you and you show up to church and you're a good human being, right? 727 00:58:04,354 --> 00:58:09,514 You show up to the local whatever meetings to help out and volunteer on a regular basis. 728 00:58:09,514 --> 00:58:13,774 And you're putting this excess time and energy that you've unlocked by saving in Bitcoin. 729 00:58:14,154 --> 00:58:21,334 If you put that to good use in your direct immediate area, I think you're going to be rewarded and you'll be rewarded with connections. 730 00:58:21,334 --> 00:58:24,554 I think you'll be rewarded just like spiritually and internally. 731 00:58:24,554 --> 00:58:27,034 Like you just, it feels good to help other people. 732 00:58:27,994 --> 00:58:29,294 It's not for everybody, right? 733 00:58:29,314 --> 00:58:32,934 Some people have social anxiety, but there are a number of ways you can, you can just 734 00:58:32,934 --> 00:58:34,874 donate your excess capital, right? 735 00:58:34,874 --> 00:58:39,094 If you are doing well for yourself, if you don't want to engage with people, but I think 736 00:58:39,094 --> 00:58:43,094 consistency and then action are the two biggest things. 737 00:58:43,094 --> 00:58:46,274 So like pick a cause and continue to show up. 738 00:58:46,894 --> 00:58:50,254 I think there's actually a huge opportunity in like the ham radio space. 739 00:58:50,674 --> 00:58:53,514 There's a lot of older guys that are running these ham radio clubs. 740 00:58:54,094 --> 00:59:01,634 So if you're a little technically inclined, you want to pass a multiple choice government test, you get your ham radio license, join the local club. 741 00:59:01,634 --> 00:59:12,254 And there's probably some prime real estate where they have their ham radio towers set up that are going to be going to the highest bidder if nobody shows up to participate and be involved with that club. 742 00:59:12,434 --> 00:59:15,554 So for a very, very concrete one, get involved with ham radio. 743 00:59:15,554 --> 00:59:22,514 But otherwise, any sort of community activity consistently showing up and doing work is probably the best way to contribute. 744 00:59:23,534 --> 00:59:27,234 Love it. Proof of work. Gary, really appreciate it. This has been tremendous. 745 00:59:27,634 --> 00:59:33,754 You've left us with a whole lot of insight and things to go get done to help out, to help ourselves. 746 00:59:34,414 --> 00:59:35,834 And I appreciate it. 747 00:59:36,374 --> 00:59:36,714 Thank you. 748 00:59:37,254 --> 00:59:38,714 Take care, Gary. Bye-bye. 749 00:59:45,554 --> 00:59:56,974 Thank you.