1 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,060 Are you serious? Hello. Hello. Thanks, and, welcome. 2 00:00:07,839 --> 00:00:09,460 Thank you. Good to be here. 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:11,139 It is a delight. 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,780 As I sometimes do, I'll try not to fanboy too hard, but as I told you, 5 00:00:16,295 --> 00:00:17,515 I grew up, 6 00:00:17,895 --> 00:00:19,115 on a lot of your publications. 7 00:00:19,575 --> 00:00:20,075 And, 8 00:00:20,855 --> 00:00:24,315 I guess in in some form or fashion, you know, you could say I was radicalized. 9 00:00:25,175 --> 00:00:29,115 Alright. By Mondo February, which is an incredibly cool publication. 10 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:35,559 Oh, I hope that doesn't get me into trouble. We're radicalized. No. No. No. I'm still here. I'm not I'm not I haven't gotten that that bad. But, 11 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,260 but I say that tongue in cheek, but only to say, you know, I I 12 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:40,460 I got 13 00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:55,105 gosh. I got started on a VIC 20 and a 300 baud modem and Fido Net, you know, for those who are listening and watching it. It dates me. Good times. But it was an amazing time. And so it is a genuine pleasure to speak with you, 14 00:00:55,905 --> 00:00:57,685 about your experience, what you 15 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,260 saw, what you see, what you foresee, 16 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,860 and that's really what I'd love to get into today. 17 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,400 Those who are not familiar didn't have the good fortune to be around, 18 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,060 during the publication of some of those early 19 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:13,635 would you call them zines, I guess? Or were they? 20 00:01:15,075 --> 00:01:15,635 Maybe the 21 00:01:16,435 --> 00:01:21,415 one was a zine, two were a zine, then Manta 2,000 sort of became an official 22 00:01:22,435 --> 00:01:39,720 magazine, I guess. Time. Yeah. Yeah. I wish I'd I wish I'd kept mine. You know, they were glossy, and it was it was amazing to hold, which, there aren't that many of anymore. But, Yeah. I mean, I have I have to scare them up when people ask me to look at them. Yeah. You know? But I do have them all, 23 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:41,580 one place or another. 24 00:01:42,545 --> 00:01:49,284 Yeah. It's it's it's something that absolutely, needs to be preserved. And for those who aren't familiar, we'll have notes. 25 00:01:49,665 --> 00:01:54,005 We'll have links in the show notes so they can get a sense of some of these publications. But 26 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,740 where I'd like to start are you is, you know, in in Mondo February heyday 27 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:04,979 and and certainly I I would imagine before you saw the Internet as a tool for individual freedom, 28 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:15,875 for systems that perhaps the term was not decentralized back then, but but, you know, broke up and took back some of the power. So my question is, as a bit of a retrospective, 29 00:02:16,495 --> 00:02:21,235 what core beliefs about user empowerment, you know, sort of drove that vision 30 00:02:21,550 --> 00:02:22,290 or individualism 31 00:02:22,750 --> 00:02:25,810 drove that vision? And and which do you see still hold up today? 32 00:02:26,670 --> 00:02:27,170 Okay. 33 00:02:27,630 --> 00:02:28,290 I mean, 34 00:02:29,069 --> 00:02:31,490 there was the, famous John Gilmore 35 00:02:32,030 --> 00:02:32,530 quote, 36 00:02:33,069 --> 00:02:34,209 that the Internet 37 00:02:34,905 --> 00:02:38,205 views censorship as damage and roots around it. Absolutely. 38 00:02:39,305 --> 00:02:42,205 So it was viewed as an utterly 39 00:02:42,905 --> 00:02:43,805 out of control 40 00:02:44,905 --> 00:02:46,445 space in which, 41 00:02:46,905 --> 00:02:48,285 it would be difficult 42 00:02:49,050 --> 00:02:50,750 to, set up roadblocks, 43 00:02:52,810 --> 00:02:53,710 I mean, including 44 00:02:54,730 --> 00:02:55,230 roadblocks 45 00:02:55,770 --> 00:02:56,910 related to commerce. 46 00:02:58,570 --> 00:03:00,990 So so the I mean, the original idea 47 00:03:01,610 --> 00:03:02,670 was that 48 00:03:03,614 --> 00:03:04,114 everything 49 00:03:05,775 --> 00:03:10,754 on the Internet can be easily copied and can be shared with anybody else 50 00:03:11,215 --> 00:03:12,034 on the Internet. 51 00:03:13,215 --> 00:03:13,715 Therefore, 52 00:03:14,495 --> 00:03:14,995 it 53 00:03:15,730 --> 00:03:18,390 won't be controlled and it won't be monetized. 54 00:03:23,090 --> 00:03:25,750 And and the original culture of the Internet, 55 00:03:26,210 --> 00:03:27,750 this basically disallowed 56 00:03:28,725 --> 00:03:32,585 commerce, you know, other than small scale kind of Craigslist 57 00:03:33,045 --> 00:03:33,445 sort of, 58 00:03:34,325 --> 00:03:35,225 sort of things. 59 00:03:35,765 --> 00:03:37,785 You know, you go on your, BBS, 60 00:03:38,325 --> 00:03:43,065 go on the well or whatever and offer something for sale, but, you don't 61 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,860 you don't, market Coca Cola on there or, 62 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:48,540 you know, 63 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:49,580 books, 64 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:51,020 you know, 65 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,980 gathered up by Amazon and that sort of thing. 66 00:03:54,520 --> 00:04:01,815 And this was mid eighties, late eighties. Right? Yeah. Late eighties. Into the into the early nineties. I mean, up until the web, really. 67 00:04:02,115 --> 00:04:04,455 I mean, the the web is what 68 00:04:04,915 --> 00:04:06,375 made the commercialization, 69 00:04:08,355 --> 00:04:08,855 plausible. 70 00:04:09,635 --> 00:04:11,975 You know, it is a gathering of images 71 00:04:12,275 --> 00:04:13,095 and context 72 00:04:13,395 --> 00:04:13,895 and 73 00:04:14,409 --> 00:04:16,510 websites that, would draw people 74 00:04:17,050 --> 00:04:20,090 to them and so So that original ideal 75 00:04:20,490 --> 00:04:21,630 and and the idea 76 00:04:22,090 --> 00:04:23,690 was you know, he asked about, 77 00:04:24,410 --> 00:04:25,630 individual empowerment 78 00:04:26,169 --> 00:04:26,650 and, 79 00:04:27,050 --> 00:04:27,550 decentralization. 80 00:04:28,585 --> 00:04:30,685 And the idea was that every individual 81 00:04:32,025 --> 00:04:33,324 would be a 82 00:04:34,824 --> 00:04:37,724 media a media deity, a broadcasting 83 00:04:38,905 --> 00:04:40,985 system once it, you know, got into, 84 00:04:41,384 --> 00:04:42,525 being able to share, 85 00:04:43,065 --> 00:04:44,044 video. And 86 00:04:45,199 --> 00:04:49,540 everybody would have a website and have text and make that available. And, 87 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:53,620 for the most part, people didn't 88 00:04:54,479 --> 00:04:57,460 dream too much about what Jaron Lanier has 89 00:04:58,895 --> 00:05:00,435 labeled siren servers, 90 00:05:00,895 --> 00:05:02,035 that there would be, 91 00:05:02,815 --> 00:05:03,315 these 92 00:05:03,694 --> 00:05:04,194 attractive, 93 00:05:05,455 --> 00:05:06,354 well built, 94 00:05:07,134 --> 00:05:10,755 apps like Facebook that would suck everybody in, 95 00:05:11,694 --> 00:05:12,194 to 96 00:05:12,735 --> 00:05:13,455 a space, 97 00:05:14,620 --> 00:05:15,120 controlled 98 00:05:16,140 --> 00:05:21,260 by, the masters of that space and and by the needs for, 99 00:05:22,140 --> 00:05:24,880 investment capital and and that kind of thing. 100 00:05:26,220 --> 00:05:26,720 So 101 00:05:28,325 --> 00:05:32,265 I I don't think it up to a point, you know, maybe some people predicted that 102 00:05:32,805 --> 00:05:36,665 this would be what would eventually occur, certainly that commerce 103 00:05:37,365 --> 00:05:42,265 would occur. But the form that it took, I don't think there were a lot of people 104 00:05:44,190 --> 00:05:45,389 imagining that. And, 105 00:05:46,509 --> 00:05:49,410 initially, I mean, there was this kind of idealistic 106 00:05:51,069 --> 00:05:52,050 social media 107 00:05:52,509 --> 00:05:54,830 idea. I mean, that, Wired, 108 00:05:55,229 --> 00:05:57,250 started something called Electric Minds, 109 00:05:57,965 --> 00:06:01,505 that was run by that was run by Howard Rheingold and, 110 00:06:01,965 --> 00:06:04,225 Justin Hall and and, you know, 111 00:06:05,645 --> 00:06:07,585 cyber techno idealist. 112 00:06:09,485 --> 00:06:12,540 And I'm sure they imagined that they would sell ads, 113 00:06:13,340 --> 00:06:15,520 to keep it going, but, that, 114 00:06:16,620 --> 00:06:19,520 I don't think they imagined anything on on the scale 115 00:06:20,300 --> 00:06:20,800 of 116 00:06:21,580 --> 00:06:22,780 what occurred with, 117 00:06:23,340 --> 00:06:25,200 Facebook and Twitter and 118 00:06:25,660 --> 00:06:27,520 all those behemoths that 119 00:06:28,445 --> 00:06:28,945 emerged 120 00:06:29,325 --> 00:06:29,825 eventually, 121 00:06:31,565 --> 00:06:39,825 out of all that. So, you know, that that was the early idea. And what, I mean, for you personally, what sparked your 122 00:06:41,009 --> 00:06:42,629 decades long pursuit 123 00:06:43,330 --> 00:06:47,349 of drawing my hearts and minds, you know, to to what the Internet 124 00:06:47,729 --> 00:06:48,629 made possible, 125 00:06:49,409 --> 00:06:51,909 or online, I guess, as it were, pre Internet? 126 00:06:52,289 --> 00:06:52,789 Yeah. 127 00:06:54,435 --> 00:06:55,895 In the seventies, 128 00:06:56,355 --> 00:06:56,855 I, 129 00:06:57,795 --> 00:06:58,295 was, 130 00:06:59,715 --> 00:07:00,215 converted, 131 00:07:00,995 --> 00:07:02,135 sort of to 132 00:07:02,515 --> 00:07:03,015 a 133 00:07:03,395 --> 00:07:03,895 transhumanist 134 00:07:04,595 --> 00:07:08,535 kind of vision by Robert Anton Wilson and Timothy Leary, 135 00:07:09,340 --> 00:07:09,840 two, 136 00:07:10,700 --> 00:07:11,440 two psychedelic 137 00:07:11,980 --> 00:07:12,480 pranksters. 138 00:07:14,460 --> 00:07:17,980 Tim was mostly known during the nineteen sixties, but, 139 00:07:18,780 --> 00:07:19,680 became a 140 00:07:20,380 --> 00:07:20,880 techno 141 00:07:21,260 --> 00:07:24,560 enthusiast in the nineteen seventies and actually 142 00:07:25,474 --> 00:07:29,895 spoke to a, libertarian convention in, like, 1979 143 00:07:30,354 --> 00:07:32,914 and told them, you know, the Internet was going to, 144 00:07:33,875 --> 00:07:37,414 make your dreams come true about, having, 145 00:07:37,810 --> 00:07:38,790 you know, complete 146 00:07:39,570 --> 00:07:40,070 liberty, 147 00:07:40,770 --> 00:07:41,990 in terms of communication, 148 00:07:42,449 --> 00:07:43,509 possibly commerce, 149 00:07:44,130 --> 00:07:45,509 and that sort of thing. 150 00:07:45,889 --> 00:07:47,169 So, those two, 151 00:07:47,650 --> 00:07:48,150 jokers, 152 00:07:49,410 --> 00:07:51,250 kinda kind of got me going. 153 00:07:51,650 --> 00:07:52,150 But 154 00:07:52,975 --> 00:07:55,235 in some ways, my openness 155 00:07:55,694 --> 00:07:56,194 to 156 00:07:58,014 --> 00:07:58,514 techno 157 00:07:58,815 --> 00:07:59,315 optimism 158 00:07:59,775 --> 00:08:01,694 really goes all the way back to, 159 00:08:02,574 --> 00:08:05,955 being a high school student in the late nineteen sixties. 160 00:08:06,890 --> 00:08:08,190 And there was, 161 00:08:08,730 --> 00:08:10,510 I mean, there were two streams 162 00:08:11,450 --> 00:08:14,670 in counterculture in the nineteen sixties. One of it was 163 00:08:15,130 --> 00:08:17,150 get the hell out of here, back to the woods, 164 00:08:17,930 --> 00:08:19,230 get rid of your TVs, 165 00:08:20,074 --> 00:08:24,175 Don't get involved with computers. You know, IBM is is the enemy. 166 00:08:24,794 --> 00:08:26,975 And then there was this other aspect, 167 00:08:27,514 --> 00:08:28,014 that, 168 00:08:29,675 --> 00:08:31,615 the machines of loving grace, 169 00:08:32,315 --> 00:08:34,415 poem by the hippie poet, 170 00:08:35,380 --> 00:08:36,280 Richard Bratigan, 171 00:08:37,460 --> 00:08:37,960 that, 172 00:08:39,060 --> 00:08:39,560 the 173 00:08:41,300 --> 00:08:41,800 cybernetics 174 00:08:42,260 --> 00:08:43,560 would deliver 175 00:08:44,660 --> 00:08:46,120 a kind of utopia, 176 00:08:46,580 --> 00:08:47,560 the kind of utopia 177 00:08:48,235 --> 00:08:51,755 longed for by hippies who didn't wanna get jobs. You know? 178 00:08:52,795 --> 00:08:54,815 So that so that we could, root around, 179 00:08:55,595 --> 00:08:56,255 the whole 180 00:08:56,715 --> 00:08:57,215 drag, 181 00:08:57,995 --> 00:08:59,055 you know, the tiresome 182 00:08:59,435 --> 00:09:01,135 drag of adulthood 183 00:09:02,050 --> 00:09:04,630 and, you know, move into a 184 00:09:05,250 --> 00:09:05,830 a groovy 185 00:09:06,210 --> 00:09:09,430 a groovy world. So, you know, I carried those 186 00:09:10,530 --> 00:09:13,670 hopes with me, you know, all the way into 187 00:09:15,005 --> 00:09:17,825 the nineteen nineties with Mondo February, 188 00:09:18,685 --> 00:09:19,665 you know, with 189 00:09:20,365 --> 00:09:21,105 an increasing 190 00:09:22,205 --> 00:09:23,585 sort of post punk 191 00:09:24,605 --> 00:09:29,105 streak of doubt and nihilism kind of mixed in there, 192 00:09:30,180 --> 00:09:30,759 you know, 193 00:09:31,620 --> 00:09:34,600 the feeling of, being assaulted by, 194 00:09:36,019 --> 00:09:37,079 the Reagan 195 00:09:37,779 --> 00:09:38,279 era, 196 00:09:39,139 --> 00:09:40,259 and, the, 197 00:09:41,139 --> 00:09:42,600 war on drugs particularly, 198 00:09:43,925 --> 00:09:46,345 which I will point out probably damaged, 199 00:09:47,125 --> 00:09:49,785 more lives than anything we've seen so far, 200 00:09:50,404 --> 00:09:51,704 from the new administration, 201 00:09:52,725 --> 00:09:55,845 although they've got plenty of time to work on it. But, 202 00:09:56,485 --> 00:09:56,985 yeah. 203 00:09:57,524 --> 00:09:59,520 So, yeah, I mean, this is a 204 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:00,980 tremendous 205 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,140 mix of emotions and thoughts that have followed me 206 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:06,900 all the way through 207 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,980 the decade of the What if that thank you for that, are you? 208 00:10:13,495 --> 00:10:20,475 I'll come back to this, but but Yeah. At this moment, you know, as we kinda come off of that part of the conversation, 209 00:10:20,855 --> 00:10:25,435 what if that spark remains? I mean, what is your read? What is your take on 210 00:10:26,055 --> 00:10:27,595 what remains of that original, 211 00:10:29,089 --> 00:10:30,149 animating vision? 212 00:10:33,570 --> 00:10:34,949 I'm I'm fairly, 213 00:10:37,970 --> 00:10:39,269 dystopian dystopian 214 00:10:39,570 --> 00:10:41,269 at this particular moment. 215 00:10:42,445 --> 00:10:45,805 But, you know, I always keep my net out for, 216 00:10:46,365 --> 00:10:46,865 something 217 00:10:47,965 --> 00:10:48,465 different 218 00:10:49,085 --> 00:10:49,585 occurring. 219 00:10:51,485 --> 00:10:52,785 I have enthusiasm 220 00:10:53,485 --> 00:10:53,985 for 221 00:10:54,680 --> 00:10:55,420 the enthusiasm 222 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:56,940 about AI. 223 00:10:57,560 --> 00:10:59,740 You know, I am not really that enthusiastic 224 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:01,019 about it. 225 00:11:01,399 --> 00:11:03,899 I'm not, you know, I am not 226 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,575 convinced that large language models, you know, are 227 00:11:08,455 --> 00:11:09,835 bringing us to a singularity 228 00:11:10,215 --> 00:11:10,715 or, 229 00:11:12,935 --> 00:11:14,395 some place where 230 00:11:15,575 --> 00:11:16,075 cybernetics, 231 00:11:16,855 --> 00:11:20,235 will deliver the so called machines of love and grace. 232 00:11:21,589 --> 00:11:23,690 You know, I'm also increasingly skeptical 233 00:11:24,709 --> 00:11:25,190 about, 234 00:11:25,670 --> 00:11:26,170 whether 235 00:11:26,550 --> 00:11:30,490 even if we could deliver good and plenty for all, 236 00:11:31,579 --> 00:11:31,829 the, 237 00:11:33,910 --> 00:11:34,410 human 238 00:11:36,065 --> 00:11:36,565 kindness 239 00:11:38,385 --> 00:11:41,525 does not exist to want that to happen, 240 00:11:42,225 --> 00:11:42,725 that, 241 00:11:44,385 --> 00:11:46,645 there are enough people who 242 00:11:47,345 --> 00:11:50,405 want bad things to happen to a lot of people, 243 00:11:51,540 --> 00:11:52,520 to drive 244 00:11:53,140 --> 00:11:54,440 anything utopian 245 00:11:55,140 --> 00:11:56,120 into a ditch. 246 00:11:57,220 --> 00:11:57,720 Maybe. 247 00:11:58,340 --> 00:11:59,720 But, I mean, that's that's 248 00:12:00,100 --> 00:12:01,780 where I go in terms of hope. 249 00:12:04,625 --> 00:12:06,965 Really just kind of the the the wilder 250 00:12:07,425 --> 00:12:07,925 possibilities 251 00:12:08,705 --> 00:12:10,225 are are the things that, 252 00:12:11,025 --> 00:12:13,205 give me even a a smidgen 253 00:12:13,745 --> 00:12:17,525 of hope. I'm doing a thing right now. I'm doing a 254 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,019 performance, and I have an album. 255 00:12:23,560 --> 00:12:25,019 And I call the performance, 256 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,380 come to the Gulf Of Deliria. 257 00:12:30,199 --> 00:12:31,500 And, you know, as 258 00:12:32,024 --> 00:12:33,245 my impulse, 259 00:12:35,704 --> 00:12:37,165 as we shifted 260 00:12:37,625 --> 00:12:38,125 into, 261 00:12:39,305 --> 00:12:40,365 the new situation 262 00:12:40,745 --> 00:12:42,185 with, Trump and so 263 00:12:43,625 --> 00:12:45,805 my impulse was to 264 00:12:47,490 --> 00:12:50,389 be kind of a grounded person who, 265 00:12:51,089 --> 00:12:55,509 will be a nanny and lecture people about truth and justice and, 266 00:12:56,610 --> 00:12:58,070 the difference between 267 00:12:59,665 --> 00:13:00,165 fact 268 00:13:00,625 --> 00:13:05,845 and fantasy and all that. And at some point, I just tell you, fuck it. I'm gonna ride the delirium. 269 00:13:07,985 --> 00:13:12,885 And and that's kind of where where where I am with that right now. 270 00:13:13,460 --> 00:13:16,440 Look for the bright spots and and and ride them. I love it. 271 00:13:16,820 --> 00:13:20,040 Yeah. So you you mentioned and you have called out certainly, 272 00:13:20,820 --> 00:13:26,600 not just today, but but, generally, companies like Google and Facebook for consolidating the Internet. 273 00:13:27,220 --> 00:13:28,100 When would you say 274 00:13:29,195 --> 00:13:35,855 not to put words in your mouth, but, you know, assuming you saw a change at some point, what early signs of that shift 275 00:13:36,235 --> 00:13:37,935 did you notice? And, 276 00:13:38,555 --> 00:13:46,440 you know, perhaps for those who aren't deep in the technology, they're end users, so to speak. They're, you know, individuals going about their daily lives and using these 277 00:13:46,820 --> 00:13:51,480 tools. How has it changed the balance of power between users and 278 00:13:51,860 --> 00:13:52,360 platforms? 279 00:13:52,740 --> 00:13:55,400 Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, there was, 280 00:13:56,580 --> 00:13:57,080 the 281 00:13:58,535 --> 00:13:59,195 the stock 282 00:13:59,735 --> 00:14:03,195 market, the the big rush of the late nineteen nineties. 283 00:14:05,095 --> 00:14:08,154 You know, and you could see that all these, 284 00:14:09,654 --> 00:14:11,115 companies that were 285 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,700 coming online were getting 286 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:14,660 big 287 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,200 investment capital. They were they were getting, 288 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,720 I can't remember the word for it, but they, you know, they were, 289 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:30,485 going public. That's that's a problem I was looking at. At. Right. And so, they were taking on a responsibility 290 00:14:30,945 --> 00:14:32,404 to make big money. 291 00:14:33,105 --> 00:14:34,404 So you could see 292 00:14:35,105 --> 00:14:35,605 that 293 00:14:36,305 --> 00:14:39,845 right around that time, the late nineties, that the thing was 294 00:14:40,770 --> 00:14:41,270 going 295 00:14:41,730 --> 00:14:42,230 to 296 00:14:42,610 --> 00:14:43,110 shift, 297 00:14:43,570 --> 00:14:44,070 towards 298 00:14:44,770 --> 00:14:45,270 competition. 299 00:14:47,330 --> 00:14:51,110 The terms at that time was capturing eyeballs. 300 00:14:51,970 --> 00:14:53,590 That was that was the idea. 301 00:14:54,605 --> 00:14:57,985 So you could see that competition was going to, 302 00:14:59,485 --> 00:15:02,065 put more power into the hands 303 00:15:03,005 --> 00:15:04,225 of the, 304 00:15:05,645 --> 00:15:06,945 host, the sites, 305 00:15:07,700 --> 00:15:11,960 and less into the hands of the participants and and 306 00:15:12,420 --> 00:15:14,600 and, so the the people 307 00:15:15,140 --> 00:15:18,500 using the site. And and and, more people would be 308 00:15:19,265 --> 00:15:20,885 there'll be a tremendous pressure 309 00:15:21,265 --> 00:15:25,925 on these organisms. You know, I think Yahoo was one of the early ones to, 310 00:15:27,105 --> 00:15:28,085 capture people 311 00:15:28,465 --> 00:15:34,005 and keep them engaged and keep them on your site and start giving them stuff that would keep them there. 312 00:15:35,209 --> 00:15:43,630 Start punishing people for linking out or or making it more difficult for people to link out and to just move, you know, freely 313 00:15:44,010 --> 00:15:44,510 around, 314 00:15:46,170 --> 00:15:50,145 you know, finding ways to discourage that. So you could start to see that 315 00:15:50,705 --> 00:15:52,485 in the, late nineties. 316 00:15:53,825 --> 00:15:55,445 And, I mean, there's been complexity 317 00:15:56,145 --> 00:15:58,005 all along. I mean, during the 318 00:15:58,545 --> 00:16:02,485 so called Arab Spring, even Facebook could still seem heroic, 319 00:16:02,790 --> 00:16:03,290 you 320 00:16:03,750 --> 00:16:06,009 know, as a way for, people 321 00:16:06,470 --> 00:16:06,970 in, 322 00:16:07,829 --> 00:16:09,690 some of those countries to, 323 00:16:10,550 --> 00:16:16,149 spread the word about the rebellions, the that they were have having and so 324 00:16:18,215 --> 00:16:21,435 So there but but, I mean, there was a lot of complexity there. 325 00:16:22,535 --> 00:16:23,755 And then, I mean, 326 00:16:24,775 --> 00:16:25,275 basically, 327 00:16:25,815 --> 00:16:27,195 you know, a lot of discoveries 328 00:16:27,735 --> 00:16:29,035 of kind of sleaze 329 00:16:29,655 --> 00:16:33,170 going on in Facebook. Yeah. I'm a little bit, 330 00:16:33,610 --> 00:16:37,790 wobbly on the details at the of this point, you know, that bringing in 331 00:16:38,170 --> 00:16:39,290 companies to, 332 00:16:40,010 --> 00:16:42,830 analyze data and to push people in 333 00:16:43,210 --> 00:16:43,710 various, 334 00:16:44,570 --> 00:16:45,070 directions, 335 00:16:46,410 --> 00:16:47,070 you know, 336 00:16:48,154 --> 00:16:54,334 Russian server farms and all that kind of stuff. I mean, that was that was real. So, I mean, that, 337 00:16:54,795 --> 00:16:57,055 you know, it there was a decay, 338 00:16:57,754 --> 00:16:59,115 I think. I I think, 339 00:17:00,430 --> 00:17:04,210 Corey Doctorow, when he came up with the term enshidification, 340 00:17:05,390 --> 00:17:10,210 I think decay was one of the words that he used. There was a kind of decay, 341 00:17:10,830 --> 00:17:11,730 and I think 342 00:17:12,525 --> 00:17:15,185 that started becoming more extreme, like, 343 00:17:16,365 --> 00:17:17,525 probably in 344 00:17:17,965 --> 00:17:20,365 during this century, during this, 345 00:17:21,005 --> 00:17:21,505 millennium. 346 00:17:22,045 --> 00:17:28,280 Yeah. DRM and and the like. And, certainly, you know, Corey, as you note, has got some great insights there. 347 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,820 And and, you know, we fast forward to today, and it's obviously a big topic of conversation that, 348 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,220 as you noted, what was 349 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,420 incremental is now in effect 350 00:17:39,895 --> 00:17:40,715 total surveillance, 351 00:17:41,575 --> 00:17:42,475 of these platforms, 352 00:17:42,934 --> 00:17:46,875 be it government driven or company driven or a combination of both. 353 00:17:49,095 --> 00:17:50,795 AI compounds a lot of that. 354 00:17:51,174 --> 00:17:54,715 What's your what's your read, if you if you have one, are you on 355 00:17:55,650 --> 00:17:57,270 what should could be done 356 00:17:57,730 --> 00:17:58,230 technologically, 357 00:17:58,610 --> 00:17:59,110 culturally, 358 00:17:59,570 --> 00:18:00,390 or otherwise 359 00:18:01,410 --> 00:18:03,030 to restore user control 360 00:18:03,890 --> 00:18:10,470 and get us back in line with the Internet's original ethos? Are there steps we can take? Not to say there's a silver bullet, but 361 00:18:10,915 --> 00:18:12,935 any thoughts on where we should be headed? 362 00:18:13,555 --> 00:18:15,255 I mean, I've heard of people 363 00:18:15,795 --> 00:18:18,375 making projects, you know, to create, 364 00:18:18,995 --> 00:18:22,455 new social media platforms that they hope will attract people, 365 00:18:23,155 --> 00:18:26,730 that will, you know, within their architecture will, 366 00:18:27,430 --> 00:18:28,490 protect people, 367 00:18:29,350 --> 00:18:29,850 better. 368 00:18:30,230 --> 00:18:43,965 You know? I mean, the the Firefox people seem to want to do that, but then again, they dialed that back a little bit recently. Absolutely. I can't remember the details. They did something that was kinda not consistent with, 369 00:18:44,665 --> 00:18:46,125 their their claims. 370 00:18:46,585 --> 00:18:50,600 You know, I mean, Kevin Kelly, you know, who is the original editor of Wired, 371 00:18:50,900 --> 00:18:52,280 was always saying privacy, 372 00:18:52,660 --> 00:18:53,799 forget about it. 373 00:18:54,100 --> 00:18:57,799 You know? Forget about privacy. And, you know, that may be 374 00:18:59,860 --> 00:19:00,600 a direction 375 00:19:01,299 --> 00:19:02,280 for relative 376 00:19:02,660 --> 00:19:05,000 liberation as just to forget about 377 00:19:05,865 --> 00:19:06,365 privacy 378 00:19:06,985 --> 00:19:08,445 and then work 379 00:19:08,905 --> 00:19:10,685 with that and work around it, 380 00:19:11,625 --> 00:19:12,525 and still 381 00:19:13,065 --> 00:19:15,245 struggle to have your own voice 382 00:19:15,705 --> 00:19:17,005 and maybe to create 383 00:19:18,510 --> 00:19:19,010 spaces 384 00:19:19,390 --> 00:19:20,510 outside of these, 385 00:19:21,470 --> 00:19:23,090 controlled siren servers. 386 00:19:25,390 --> 00:19:26,050 You know, 387 00:19:26,590 --> 00:19:29,490 and it it becomes widespread enough that people 388 00:19:29,950 --> 00:19:31,035 want to do that. 389 00:19:31,435 --> 00:19:34,175 I mean, the thing about surveillance is nobody's even 390 00:19:34,715 --> 00:19:39,375 pretty much nobody's objecting to it now. You know? I mean, that's pretty much the 391 00:19:39,755 --> 00:19:40,895 the vibe around 392 00:19:41,195 --> 00:19:42,955 surveillance. I mean, if you remember, 393 00:19:44,490 --> 00:19:49,230 I can't remember the guy's name, the guy who went to Russia who revealed the, NSA. 394 00:19:50,010 --> 00:19:55,070 Oh, Snowden. Snowden. Right. If you remember that, and it was like, oh my god. You know? Isn't this terrible? 395 00:19:55,370 --> 00:20:00,465 The NSA is is spying on us and all that. And, you know, now, 396 00:20:01,345 --> 00:20:02,225 the guy who was, 397 00:20:03,665 --> 00:20:07,045 advocating for the spying is, you know, like a hero on MSNBC 398 00:20:07,585 --> 00:20:15,210 because he's opposed to, you know, the extreme right and all that. And so a lot of people have just said, you know, forget 399 00:20:15,830 --> 00:20:16,330 forget 400 00:20:16,630 --> 00:20:17,130 surveillance. 401 00:20:17,430 --> 00:20:20,330 You know? People people who are making surveillance 402 00:20:20,630 --> 00:20:22,890 apps are bragging about it 403 00:20:23,270 --> 00:20:30,345 everywhere and anywhere without anybody objecting to it. I mean, a lot of them are are created and sold by Israel. 404 00:20:31,284 --> 00:20:32,904 So, I mean, that attracts 405 00:20:33,205 --> 00:20:34,245 activists to, 406 00:20:34,965 --> 00:20:38,664 say, look at these bastards who are making surveillance technology. 407 00:20:39,210 --> 00:20:41,630 But in general, it's just, you know, 408 00:20:42,010 --> 00:20:43,230 nobody is really 409 00:20:43,850 --> 00:20:44,750 trying to 410 00:20:46,570 --> 00:20:49,390 nobody's bothering with it. It's it's like the 411 00:20:50,169 --> 00:20:52,270 the the song is over. It's, you know, 412 00:20:53,375 --> 00:20:55,155 Everybody's gonna be seen 413 00:20:55,935 --> 00:20:56,755 by everybody. 414 00:20:57,855 --> 00:20:59,955 Well and and I wonder and, I mean, I 415 00:21:00,415 --> 00:21:05,635 I I mean, the problem is not everybody, though. It's they're seen by companies and 416 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:06,860 they're powerful, 417 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:08,700 and they're not necessarily 418 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:10,600 seen by everybody unless, 419 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,880 there are people who have a lot of will to, 420 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:22,784 to wanna look at what everybody's doing, in which case I some people can do that. Some hacker types can do that. I think of the term, 421 00:21:23,345 --> 00:21:26,725 surveillance, which is to Yeah. To surveil the surveillers. 422 00:21:27,345 --> 00:21:27,845 Yeah. 423 00:21:28,304 --> 00:21:32,965 And not enough of that, for sure. I mean, that was one of the principles of cyberpunk 424 00:21:33,265 --> 00:21:34,245 and, Wiki 425 00:21:34,590 --> 00:21:35,090 WikiLeaks 426 00:21:35,390 --> 00:21:36,049 and all 427 00:21:36,510 --> 00:21:38,450 that, was privacy 428 00:21:38,750 --> 00:21:39,250 for 429 00:21:39,789 --> 00:21:40,610 the the weak 430 00:21:40,910 --> 00:21:41,890 and the individual 431 00:21:42,669 --> 00:21:43,169 and, 432 00:21:45,390 --> 00:21:47,650 no privacy for the powerful and, 433 00:21:48,835 --> 00:21:49,395 you know, 434 00:21:50,595 --> 00:21:52,615 yeah, the wealthy, powerful, etcetera. 435 00:21:54,035 --> 00:21:58,855 Where where if at all, I mean, you've operated under a a NIM, a pseudonym for all these years. 436 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,460 Someone looks hard enough, they're gonna find your name. Oh, yeah. 437 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:06,700 But talk to me a bit, are you, about 438 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,460 what that choice was like when you started 439 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,179 and did it have anything to do with 440 00:22:13,684 --> 00:22:19,385 they're going to find me, they're going to know me, they're going to discover things about me, so I'll just operate 441 00:22:20,085 --> 00:22:23,304 under a pseudonym, or was it something entirely different? 442 00:22:23,845 --> 00:22:25,544 It was just playful, really. 443 00:22:26,804 --> 00:22:28,985 You know, and I've I mean, I've always loved 444 00:22:29,980 --> 00:22:31,919 Wavy Gravy and Jill Biafra 445 00:22:32,460 --> 00:22:34,460 and Alice Cooper and people with 446 00:22:35,179 --> 00:22:36,320 get their you know, 447 00:22:37,260 --> 00:22:40,080 get fun names for themselves. And, 448 00:22:40,620 --> 00:22:43,419 you know, I've been reading Robert Anton Wilson about the 449 00:22:45,165 --> 00:22:49,105 he wrote about the serious mystery that, people from the 450 00:22:49,485 --> 00:22:49,985 Dogon, 451 00:22:50,445 --> 00:22:50,945 Dogon 452 00:22:51,565 --> 00:22:52,545 tribe had 453 00:22:52,845 --> 00:22:56,385 mapped out the Sirius star system without any telescopes 454 00:22:56,685 --> 00:22:58,220 and all all that. 455 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,700 So I use the name r period u period s I r I u s. 456 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,260 I like to call it as an open invitation to alien contact. 457 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:16,195 But, mainly, it was I mean, it was a a quippy a quippy name. You know, I'd gone from being a yippee to being a quippy. 458 00:23:17,215 --> 00:23:18,415 And, you know, 459 00:23:20,335 --> 00:23:20,995 you know, 460 00:23:21,295 --> 00:23:25,795 a a challenge to, people who wanna take anything too seriously. 461 00:23:26,700 --> 00:23:29,419 So, you know, so Verner Vinge, True Names. It wasn't, 462 00:23:30,460 --> 00:23:36,640 it was more more of a good time, which is great. Yeah. Well, you know, on that land or rather down that sort of path, 463 00:23:37,100 --> 00:23:42,000 your work blends what I believe you you call, correct me, are you anarchic optimism? 464 00:23:42,435 --> 00:23:45,235 Did that I think I think that got in the mix there somewhere. 465 00:23:45,555 --> 00:23:48,695 I I might have used that frame phrase at some point. 466 00:23:49,235 --> 00:23:51,255 I I think I think I'd I'd 467 00:23:51,555 --> 00:23:54,295 think of Terence McKenna maybe using that. 468 00:23:54,610 --> 00:23:55,909 Okay. Maybe I misattributed. 469 00:23:56,929 --> 00:24:10,309 But I think a general sort of distrust of authority. You had some you had you you took at least one run-in the Libertarian Party for office. Is that Yeah. No. Yeah. I made my own thing. I called it the Revolution Party. I called it a mix of 470 00:24:10,985 --> 00:24:11,485 liberalism 471 00:24:11,945 --> 00:24:12,845 and libertarianism, 472 00:24:13,305 --> 00:24:22,925 although it was really more a mix of leftism and libertarianism. I was just going along with the the general usage at that time that people were Classical liberal press. 473 00:24:24,070 --> 00:24:24,730 Yeah. But, 474 00:24:25,670 --> 00:24:27,690 also, friendly friendly welfare, 475 00:24:28,790 --> 00:24:29,530 you know, 476 00:24:31,270 --> 00:24:32,090 anti corporate, 477 00:24:32,870 --> 00:24:33,610 but also, 478 00:24:34,790 --> 00:24:38,794 maximum individual freedom. And how do we somehow 479 00:24:39,495 --> 00:24:41,195 make those things happen 480 00:24:42,054 --> 00:24:44,955 together, which is complex. You know? And 481 00:24:45,335 --> 00:24:47,515 on Facebook, I think I still 482 00:24:48,615 --> 00:24:49,115 describe 483 00:24:49,495 --> 00:24:49,995 my 484 00:24:50,460 --> 00:24:51,120 self as 485 00:24:51,820 --> 00:24:52,480 a left 486 00:24:52,780 --> 00:24:53,280 slash 487 00:24:53,659 --> 00:24:54,159 libertarian 488 00:24:54,780 --> 00:24:55,760 and then in parenthesis, 489 00:24:56,299 --> 00:24:56,799 impossible. 490 00:25:00,059 --> 00:25:05,225 Well and in fact, that that that is really that goes to sort of the heart of my question is, obviously, 491 00:25:05,605 --> 00:25:07,705 we all evolve over time, our views, 492 00:25:08,405 --> 00:25:09,625 our beliefs perhaps, 493 00:25:10,245 --> 00:25:14,424 that we hold most dear may hold true, but will evolve and change. 494 00:25:14,804 --> 00:25:17,625 What is it the core of your take, your perspective 495 00:25:18,005 --> 00:25:18,505 on 496 00:25:19,130 --> 00:25:24,430 what technology can do to empower individuals? You know, what's what's sort of the, 497 00:25:27,130 --> 00:25:32,990 the core of of those beliefs that you hold, if you could unpack that a bit for us? I think that 498 00:25:34,165 --> 00:25:35,625 there is an intrinsic 499 00:25:36,005 --> 00:25:36,505 value, 500 00:25:37,845 --> 00:25:39,145 for human beings 501 00:25:39,925 --> 00:25:41,785 in being connected 502 00:25:43,205 --> 00:25:49,520 not only with friends and family like you can do over Facebook, but being connected to the overall, 503 00:25:51,100 --> 00:25:52,800 zeitgeist, the everything 504 00:25:53,100 --> 00:25:55,280 everywhere all at once situation. 505 00:25:56,540 --> 00:25:58,160 There's some intrinsic 506 00:25:58,860 --> 00:25:59,360 value 507 00:26:00,220 --> 00:26:00,960 in there. 508 00:26:01,805 --> 00:26:03,585 There's some way 509 00:26:04,525 --> 00:26:05,425 even though, 510 00:26:05,885 --> 00:26:06,625 the power 511 00:26:07,245 --> 00:26:07,985 of surveillance, 512 00:26:10,285 --> 00:26:13,265 falls largely into the hands of the rich and powerful, 513 00:26:14,360 --> 00:26:15,660 there's something 514 00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:16,860 intrinsically 515 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:18,460 potentially valuable 516 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:20,940 in having a big view 517 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:21,960 of, 518 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:27,340 the human species and what's going on with human minds 519 00:26:27,755 --> 00:26:28,415 out there 520 00:26:28,715 --> 00:26:30,095 even when it's disturbing 521 00:26:30,715 --> 00:26:31,535 and and disgusting. 522 00:26:32,155 --> 00:26:38,415 You know? I mean, you know, in the early days of techno culture, cyber culture, manda February, 523 00:26:39,835 --> 00:26:40,335 psychedelic, 524 00:26:41,195 --> 00:26:42,575 optimism and idealism, 525 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:44,139 You know, 526 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:46,460 John Perry Barlow, 527 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:47,659 you know, 528 00:26:48,679 --> 00:26:50,380 talking about the global mind, 529 00:26:51,159 --> 00:26:57,179 that we would get together in a global mind and that, you know, this would be a happy space for people 530 00:26:57,785 --> 00:26:59,145 sharing minds. And, 531 00:26:59,625 --> 00:27:01,705 you know, what we discovered that to, 532 00:27:02,664 --> 00:27:03,245 to turn, 533 00:27:04,184 --> 00:27:05,565 to John Paul Sartre, 534 00:27:08,424 --> 00:27:12,044 hell is other people's tweets. You know, we discovered that 535 00:27:12,860 --> 00:27:15,520 other people's minds are are not 536 00:27:16,700 --> 00:27:18,320 something we, necessarily 537 00:27:18,940 --> 00:27:23,020 want to be engaged in. There's a lot of trolling. There's a lot of, 538 00:27:23,820 --> 00:27:24,480 the grotesque. 539 00:27:25,260 --> 00:27:27,760 There's a lot of, four chance 540 00:27:28,785 --> 00:27:29,285 style, 541 00:27:31,505 --> 00:27:37,185 overgrown adolescent fucking around just for the just for the hell of it. I mean, early on, I was like, 542 00:27:37,905 --> 00:27:39,125 I think I might have, 543 00:27:40,225 --> 00:27:45,220 nominated 4chan for a Webby because I thought it was just wild and amazing, 544 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:47,780 that, this irreverent 545 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:53,360 crazy thing was going on online. And, I mean, one of the things that came out of, 546 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,940 four Chan, people forget, was anonymous. 547 00:27:57,515 --> 00:27:57,755 Anonymous, 548 00:27:58,795 --> 00:27:59,934 you know, kind of 549 00:28:00,235 --> 00:28:01,135 took down, 550 00:28:01,995 --> 00:28:03,295 what's the Tom Cruise 551 00:28:04,155 --> 00:28:04,655 organization 552 00:28:05,195 --> 00:28:06,735 again? Oh, Scientology. 553 00:28:07,035 --> 00:28:08,815 They kinda took down Scientology 554 00:28:09,195 --> 00:28:10,174 several notches. 555 00:28:10,690 --> 00:28:12,930 You know? And the Scientology never quite, 556 00:28:13,810 --> 00:28:15,510 so people forget because, 557 00:28:16,250 --> 00:28:16,750 the, 558 00:28:18,850 --> 00:28:19,670 alright, also 559 00:28:20,050 --> 00:28:22,150 ended up coming out of, four Chan, 560 00:28:22,850 --> 00:28:25,110 but people forget that. So, I mean, 561 00:28:26,395 --> 00:28:29,375 I'm drifting a little bit from where I was originally 562 00:28:30,395 --> 00:28:34,575 going. But, No. But I think, you know, to the point of anarchic optimism, 563 00:28:35,035 --> 00:28:36,895 classic liberalism mixed with libertarianism, 564 00:28:37,195 --> 00:28:39,055 that freedom, that unhindered freedom. 565 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:45,120 Yeah. And I'm I'm not sure where it's all going. I know, like, you do Bitcoin stuff, and, 566 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,100 it's been one of the 567 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,100 ideals within counterculture 568 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:51,620 that there should be 569 00:28:52,505 --> 00:28:54,605 alternate or alternative currency, 570 00:28:55,145 --> 00:28:57,565 you know, currency that was, you know, 571 00:28:58,505 --> 00:28:59,645 actually structurally 572 00:29:00,105 --> 00:29:00,605 different 573 00:29:01,385 --> 00:29:02,425 from the, 574 00:29:03,065 --> 00:29:03,565 controlled, 575 00:29:04,105 --> 00:29:04,685 you know, 576 00:29:05,145 --> 00:29:05,645 main 577 00:29:05,945 --> 00:29:06,445 mainline 578 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,039 currency. Hippies and, 579 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:10,500 kind of, 580 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:11,460 green 581 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:20,505 lefty types in Ithaca did Ithaca bucks or Ithaca dollars or whatever. And I know there have been all these experiments with alternative currency. 582 00:29:21,525 --> 00:29:22,165 So when the, 583 00:29:22,725 --> 00:29:23,225 Cypherpunks 584 00:29:23,525 --> 00:29:24,345 came along 585 00:29:24,965 --> 00:29:28,585 and, they started talking about the possibilities of cryptocurrency, 586 00:29:29,925 --> 00:29:30,825 I was very 587 00:29:31,125 --> 00:29:33,065 interested in the idea of a 588 00:29:34,049 --> 00:29:34,549 uncontrolled 589 00:29:35,090 --> 00:29:35,590 area 590 00:29:36,769 --> 00:29:37,269 of 591 00:29:39,250 --> 00:29:39,750 exchange, 592 00:29:41,570 --> 00:29:43,509 even though the impulse 593 00:29:44,929 --> 00:29:46,789 was more towards the anarcho 594 00:29:47,090 --> 00:29:47,590 capitalist 595 00:29:49,485 --> 00:29:50,465 vibe, which 596 00:29:52,125 --> 00:29:53,425 is not my thing. 597 00:29:54,285 --> 00:29:55,265 I mean, my 598 00:29:56,365 --> 00:29:56,865 coauthor 599 00:29:57,805 --> 00:29:58,945 on many of 600 00:29:59,325 --> 00:30:03,185 my books and senior editor at two thousand Saint Jude 601 00:30:03,660 --> 00:30:04,160 Milhau, 602 00:30:04,620 --> 00:30:05,920 who was part of the Cypherpunks. 603 00:30:06,460 --> 00:30:08,720 She was kind of a more of a left libertarian, 604 00:30:10,220 --> 00:30:13,040 and she was excited and engaged with 605 00:30:13,340 --> 00:30:14,160 the the Cypherpunks 606 00:30:14,460 --> 00:30:15,680 and and the 607 00:30:16,115 --> 00:30:17,495 potential for cryptocurrency. 608 00:30:17,875 --> 00:30:20,455 So, I mean, I follow these things with 609 00:30:21,955 --> 00:30:26,535 great great interest grave interest great interest, a mix of, 610 00:30:27,315 --> 00:30:29,655 you know, fear and loathing and excitement. 611 00:30:30,595 --> 00:30:31,095 And, 612 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,740 I mean, it's one of those, roll of the dice things that we don't know 613 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,860 where it's it's going to land 614 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:40,060 land ultimately. 615 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,060 So I'm very, 616 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:43,580 very intrigued. 617 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,460 I participate only very lightly 618 00:30:47,615 --> 00:30:49,875 in it, but I'm, very intrigued 619 00:30:50,175 --> 00:30:54,755 by by the whole thing. And I and I if I'm gonna promote my song, 620 00:30:55,135 --> 00:30:56,435 I'm against NFTs, 621 00:30:58,975 --> 00:30:59,135 which 622 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:06,580 Fantastic. It's actually there. So I'm against I'm against NFTs. It doesn't matter much to me, so it's ambiguous. 623 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:08,480 But it ends with, 624 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,900 get your money worth nothing and your clicks for free. So Oh. 625 00:31:13,804 --> 00:31:23,745 Love that reference. We'll see where it ends up going. I won't mention the name of the band that you're giving homage to because you never know what YouTube will do with it. Right? But I get the I get the reference. It's fantastic. 626 00:31:24,605 --> 00:31:30,289 What what would you say? And I I don't wanna ask you, are you, to speak on behalf of of St. Jude who, 627 00:31:31,890 --> 00:31:34,630 I will also make sure to to link to, but 628 00:31:35,330 --> 00:31:39,029 either sort of in your conversations with her or in your own 629 00:31:39,570 --> 00:31:40,950 discovery early on, 630 00:31:42,175 --> 00:31:45,475 what were the characteristics as you remember them 631 00:31:45,855 --> 00:31:46,835 of that ideal 632 00:31:47,375 --> 00:31:47,875 alternative 633 00:31:48,175 --> 00:31:48,675 currency, 634 00:31:49,375 --> 00:31:53,555 and how close it, if at all, have we gotten, do you think, with with Bitcoin? 635 00:31:53,935 --> 00:31:55,890 If you have a if you have a perspective on that. 636 00:31:56,370 --> 00:31:59,670 Yeah. I mean, I think I think it was an anarchist 637 00:32:00,050 --> 00:32:03,270 vision, whether you're left anarchist or right anarchist. You 638 00:32:03,570 --> 00:32:06,550 fight that out once you've made the, 639 00:32:07,890 --> 00:32:09,990 made made governing very 640 00:32:10,325 --> 00:32:10,825 difficult, 641 00:32:11,205 --> 00:32:12,105 having a 642 00:32:13,045 --> 00:32:16,265 dominant currency very difficult and so So, 643 00:32:16,645 --> 00:32:20,265 I mean, the vision was in some ways pretty simple. 644 00:32:20,725 --> 00:32:21,385 It was 645 00:32:22,420 --> 00:32:23,320 out of control, 646 00:32:25,220 --> 00:32:26,200 making currency 647 00:32:26,900 --> 00:32:27,800 out of control. 648 00:32:29,700 --> 00:32:30,760 I don't think there's 649 00:32:31,300 --> 00:32:32,280 much to say 650 00:32:32,660 --> 00:32:34,920 beyond that. I mean, there was a crypto anarchist 651 00:32:35,975 --> 00:32:36,475 manifesto 652 00:32:36,775 --> 00:32:38,295 by Tim May that 653 00:32:38,775 --> 00:32:39,275 Sure. 654 00:32:40,215 --> 00:32:42,155 Laid down the idea that, 655 00:32:43,095 --> 00:32:44,535 it would cut down the, 656 00:32:45,175 --> 00:32:45,675 fences 657 00:32:46,935 --> 00:32:47,435 between 658 00:32:49,335 --> 00:32:49,835 exchange, 659 00:32:50,820 --> 00:32:51,880 the, you know, between 660 00:32:52,260 --> 00:32:53,240 the you know? 661 00:32:53,779 --> 00:32:57,240 And, I mean, he admitted that, it would make possible, 662 00:32:57,700 --> 00:33:00,360 you know, difficult and dangerous underground 663 00:33:00,980 --> 00:33:03,960 exchanges, you know, hiring hitmen and and 664 00:33:04,294 --> 00:33:05,914 stuff like that. 665 00:33:06,615 --> 00:33:11,115 And I think the idea was that stuff goes on anyway, but that it could be broadly 666 00:33:11,975 --> 00:33:12,475 liberating. 667 00:33:13,735 --> 00:33:17,835 So I think that's what the what the vision was at the at the time. I 668 00:33:18,135 --> 00:33:19,115 I can't really 669 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:22,340 credit 670 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:24,020 much complexity 671 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:25,700 to the idea. 672 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,740 I mean, I did it you know, clearly, 673 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:31,460 cryptocurrency 674 00:33:35,615 --> 00:33:36,595 did not 675 00:33:36,895 --> 00:33:39,315 turn out to be a completely private 676 00:33:39,934 --> 00:33:41,395 means of exchange. 677 00:33:42,815 --> 00:33:44,515 It turned out to be discoverable, 678 00:33:46,174 --> 00:33:47,955 and to a degree 679 00:33:48,335 --> 00:33:48,835 controllable 680 00:33:49,135 --> 00:33:49,635 by 681 00:33:50,490 --> 00:33:51,470 states and 682 00:33:52,250 --> 00:33:53,230 tax people 683 00:33:53,610 --> 00:33:54,110 and, 684 00:33:56,970 --> 00:33:57,870 people who 685 00:33:58,730 --> 00:34:02,090 might not like dissidents of various sorts and, 686 00:34:02,810 --> 00:34:06,255 all that nation states. I mean, it just didn't 687 00:34:06,955 --> 00:34:08,655 happen the way the original, 688 00:34:09,195 --> 00:34:11,055 you know, crypto anarchists 689 00:34:12,075 --> 00:34:12,575 imagined, 690 00:34:13,435 --> 00:34:14,335 which, I mean, 691 00:34:14,875 --> 00:34:16,974 kinda seems like the story of everything. 692 00:34:17,435 --> 00:34:19,935 And It is definitely an experiment still underway. 693 00:34:20,319 --> 00:34:21,140 Yeah. Absolutely. 694 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:21,940 Yeah. 695 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,940 What is your take zooming out? Are you on 696 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:27,780 the ability for, 697 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:33,780 for individuals to harness these technologies for good? And I'll just pick AI as an example. 698 00:34:34,240 --> 00:34:35,859 You know, do you think it is 699 00:34:36,744 --> 00:34:46,045 destined to to end up in corporate control, or do you see glimmers of of lighter hope for for individuals to harness it to take back more power, to take back more 700 00:34:46,345 --> 00:34:46,845 independence? 701 00:34:47,225 --> 00:34:48,105 Yeah. I mean, I, 702 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:49,740 write for MindPlex 703 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,580 dot ai, which is, run by Ben Ben Gertzel, 704 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:54,760 who, 705 00:34:55,240 --> 00:34:55,740 is 706 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:56,620 working 707 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:57,420 on 708 00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:01,020 AI and AGI. 709 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:02,300 And, 710 00:35:03,395 --> 00:35:05,335 his project along with SingularityNET 711 00:35:06,035 --> 00:35:06,695 is beneficial 712 00:35:08,275 --> 00:35:09,575 AI with a very 713 00:35:10,435 --> 00:35:11,335 clear focus 714 00:35:12,355 --> 00:35:12,855 on, 715 00:35:13,635 --> 00:35:14,615 making sure 716 00:35:14,994 --> 00:35:15,815 that it's 717 00:35:16,470 --> 00:35:17,130 a beneficial 718 00:35:17,430 --> 00:35:19,770 project, not a top down 719 00:35:20,390 --> 00:35:20,890 ownership 720 00:35:21,510 --> 00:35:22,010 project. 721 00:35:23,270 --> 00:35:29,609 And what would define that in your view? And I don't assume that they're hard and fast rules, but what separates Beneficial 722 00:35:29,990 --> 00:35:30,970 AI, say, from 723 00:35:31,535 --> 00:35:33,955 what companies like OpenAI and others are doing? 724 00:35:34,895 --> 00:35:38,755 You know, I'm not I'm not that sure. I mean, that's that's kind 725 00:35:39,055 --> 00:35:40,415 of that's kind of work for, 726 00:35:41,295 --> 00:35:43,795 Ben and and people like that to, 727 00:35:44,335 --> 00:35:45,395 to work with. 728 00:35:47,010 --> 00:35:51,590 You know, I I am told by my friend Dan Kottke that the 729 00:35:52,130 --> 00:35:52,630 OpenAI 730 00:35:53,090 --> 00:35:53,590 guy, 731 00:35:53,970 --> 00:35:56,070 has reasonably good intentions, 732 00:35:57,890 --> 00:35:59,270 maybe compared to 733 00:35:59,890 --> 00:36:01,030 Meta and, 734 00:36:01,730 --> 00:36:02,230 GROC. 735 00:36:03,305 --> 00:36:04,285 So there are 736 00:36:04,664 --> 00:36:05,164 levels 737 00:36:05,464 --> 00:36:05,625 of, 738 00:36:06,345 --> 00:36:06,744 of, 739 00:36:07,224 --> 00:36:08,204 good and evil, 740 00:36:08,984 --> 00:36:11,644 potentially going there. At play there. 741 00:36:14,585 --> 00:36:15,085 Yeah. 742 00:36:16,590 --> 00:36:17,330 I mean, 743 00:36:17,630 --> 00:36:19,730 I think for for people to 744 00:36:20,990 --> 00:36:22,370 have their own 745 00:36:23,230 --> 00:36:24,270 system to, 746 00:36:24,990 --> 00:36:28,210 to be able to have something that they manage themselves 747 00:36:29,605 --> 00:36:30,745 that, nobody, 748 00:36:31,605 --> 00:36:32,585 from an outside 749 00:36:33,525 --> 00:36:37,465 company can interfere with and prevent them from 750 00:36:38,085 --> 00:36:40,505 using in the way that they 751 00:36:41,100 --> 00:36:45,040 wish to use it, which brings us back in some ways to the cyber cypherpunk, 752 00:36:46,540 --> 00:36:48,080 sort of sort of anarchic 753 00:36:49,100 --> 00:36:49,600 view. 754 00:36:51,740 --> 00:36:55,520 But then, you know, then there's the question of mitigating against 755 00:36:55,820 --> 00:36:56,320 somebody 756 00:36:57,555 --> 00:37:02,695 using all that power in a in a destructive way. So so, I mean, there's a lot 757 00:37:03,155 --> 00:37:03,815 of complexity, 758 00:37:05,714 --> 00:37:06,214 also 759 00:37:07,075 --> 00:37:07,575 there. 760 00:37:08,915 --> 00:37:09,895 You know, I think, 761 00:37:10,940 --> 00:37:12,880 you know, in terms of AGI, 762 00:37:13,579 --> 00:37:20,640 you know, if if people are going to be taking these things under the skin, are they gonna be taking these things 763 00:37:21,099 --> 00:37:22,559 inside of themselves? 764 00:37:24,695 --> 00:37:26,635 They don't wanna have, you 765 00:37:27,095 --> 00:37:27,595 know, 766 00:37:29,175 --> 00:37:30,155 Apple setting 767 00:37:30,695 --> 00:37:31,675 limits on 768 00:37:32,295 --> 00:37:33,115 what they can 769 00:37:33,655 --> 00:37:35,195 think and, you know, 770 00:37:36,455 --> 00:37:38,315 physically towards purchasing 771 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:39,860 things. 772 00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:43,460 You know? There is. I I don't know where you that. If you, 773 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:52,660 have followed Black Mirror, the Oh, yeah. Writings and now the show Yeah. Yeah. The current season, I have to I have to confess I tapped out. It is 774 00:37:55,255 --> 00:38:02,395 darker than I'm prepared to watch at this point, but without giving away too many spoilers. So if you're if you're starting the thirtieth season spoiler alert, 775 00:38:03,974 --> 00:38:06,315 they deal with or they tackle the issue 776 00:38:07,175 --> 00:38:08,555 of a brain implant 777 00:38:09,750 --> 00:38:11,850 that turns into a subscription service. 778 00:38:12,230 --> 00:38:12,730 And 779 00:38:13,110 --> 00:38:13,990 that that 780 00:38:14,310 --> 00:38:16,650 And the couple keeps going back to their 781 00:38:16,950 --> 00:38:19,690 doctor, and they keep on it was a perfect unshitification 782 00:38:20,390 --> 00:38:23,450 model where they just keep getting charged more 783 00:38:23,975 --> 00:38:25,275 money to upgrade. 784 00:38:25,655 --> 00:38:27,595 And then if you didn't upgrade, 785 00:38:28,535 --> 00:38:36,155 what would really happen to you wasn't just that there was a nice level above you, but at your your level would be really being downgraded. 786 00:38:37,140 --> 00:38:38,280 Very much a kind 787 00:38:38,819 --> 00:38:40,760 of, model of, 788 00:38:41,299 --> 00:38:41,799 discourse. 789 00:38:42,660 --> 00:38:47,780 It's a it's a great season. I mean, you know, if you're if you're if you're ready to, 790 00:38:48,420 --> 00:38:56,775 take in take in really dark terrain. Emotional well is deep enough that you feel you can Yeah. Yeah. You know, I and I are still trying to get through it. 791 00:38:57,075 --> 00:39:01,795 Yeah. Yeah. No. I enjoyed it thoroughly. And I think, you know, but I mean, I think to to to to the point, 792 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:03,619 it is, 793 00:39:04,079 --> 00:39:10,819 it is a cautionary tale. And and Yeah. Perhaps perhaps, and I'm suddenly forgetting the the writer's name, he takes it to an extreme but for purpose. 794 00:39:12,559 --> 00:39:14,685 If we shift then, you know, I think to what 795 00:39:15,485 --> 00:39:19,425 is the bulk of of your work in your career are you I mean, you foresaw 796 00:39:20,045 --> 00:39:22,385 the Internet's potential ahead of many, 797 00:39:23,165 --> 00:39:26,065 and you've spent your career in the creative, 798 00:39:27,165 --> 00:39:29,130 arts, generally speaking. I mean, 799 00:39:29,529 --> 00:39:31,630 let's go there for a minute. And I know 800 00:39:32,250 --> 00:39:36,589 from my own experience in the entertainment industry and from friends and colleagues who are building 801 00:39:36,890 --> 00:39:41,789 businesses in this area, you know, there's a lot of hope, a lot of potential with regard to 802 00:39:42,255 --> 00:39:42,755 what, 803 00:39:43,454 --> 00:39:47,555 emerging technologies can do to empower artists, writers, creators 804 00:39:47,934 --> 00:39:48,994 to sort of reclaim 805 00:39:49,775 --> 00:39:50,414 their work. 806 00:39:51,295 --> 00:39:54,914 I'd love to get your take on where you see 807 00:39:55,690 --> 00:39:57,710 the wind blowing with regard 808 00:39:58,090 --> 00:39:59,710 to the Internet today 809 00:40:00,410 --> 00:40:04,030 and and what artists, writers, creators can do to 810 00:40:04,490 --> 00:40:06,110 to get back some control 811 00:40:06,490 --> 00:40:09,630 and to, have a little more agency. Well, it's a 812 00:40:10,355 --> 00:40:12,694 it's a good question. That's for sure. 813 00:40:15,714 --> 00:40:22,055 I mean, you you can you can try to stay off. If you're doing music, you can try to stay off Spotify, and, 814 00:40:22,674 --> 00:40:24,450 Bandcamp is a pretty good app 815 00:40:28,290 --> 00:40:33,829 still so far. Develop new develop your own develop your own app. Put your 816 00:40:34,290 --> 00:40:36,950 put your work on a discreet 817 00:40:38,895 --> 00:40:39,395 app. 818 00:40:39,775 --> 00:40:42,355 You know? I mean, it used to be a website, 819 00:40:43,295 --> 00:40:50,195 and, you know, that's a cool thing too. But, I mean, I think maybe the thing to do is is to put your stuff on a discreet 820 00:40:50,815 --> 00:40:52,595 app and to maybe put it on 821 00:40:53,135 --> 00:40:54,285 a a physical 822 00:40:54,900 --> 00:40:55,880 product that, 823 00:40:56,900 --> 00:40:59,460 people can get a hold of, you know, back to, 824 00:41:00,339 --> 00:41:01,240 back to physical 825 00:41:01,940 --> 00:41:02,440 things. 826 00:41:03,220 --> 00:41:07,319 And, you know, it got many in excuse me. Are you are you seeing many in your circles, 827 00:41:07,940 --> 00:41:12,505 do that? I know you're on the West Coast, and you hang out with a lot of super interesting people, 828 00:41:12,884 --> 00:41:13,384 making 829 00:41:13,924 --> 00:41:14,424 art. 830 00:41:15,285 --> 00:41:20,984 What what what are you sort of picking up in terms of of those that are maybe early in their career or 831 00:41:21,285 --> 00:41:29,780 or perhaps have the freedom to not care and can kind of do whatever they want? Yeah. I mean, there's two extremes. I think I think there's a a desire for, 832 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:31,619 a live, 833 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:33,940 gathering 834 00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:34,740 again, 835 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,460 for, stuff that you can bring 836 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:39,780 to, you know, the the 837 00:41:40,905 --> 00:41:42,685 post digital potlatch. 838 00:41:42,985 --> 00:41:44,525 Yeah. I mean, you you organize 839 00:41:45,545 --> 00:41:49,805 something wonderful like a dork bot in San Francisco. You organize it digitally, 840 00:41:50,345 --> 00:41:54,525 but then the people What is that? Could you could you tell me more about that? Kind of a gathering, 841 00:41:55,465 --> 00:41:55,705 that, 842 00:41:57,119 --> 00:41:58,819 happens in San Francisco, 843 00:42:01,039 --> 00:42:03,859 maybe about once a month or even less that, 844 00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:06,579 tend to bring the old cyber tribes 845 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:07,460 together, 846 00:42:08,079 --> 00:42:10,660 and, people come and make, presentations. 847 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:11,680 And, 848 00:42:12,455 --> 00:42:14,315 it's certainly organized online, 849 00:42:15,415 --> 00:42:17,755 but the final result is 850 00:42:18,375 --> 00:42:18,875 people, 851 00:42:19,655 --> 00:42:22,935 getting together in physical space. I think the, 852 00:42:24,295 --> 00:42:25,035 the combination 853 00:42:26,020 --> 00:42:29,800 of using digital space and using physical space, 854 00:42:30,420 --> 00:42:36,440 using digital product and using physical product and how you can integrate those things, 855 00:42:38,535 --> 00:42:41,515 That's kind of an up and coming thing. But, also, 856 00:42:43,415 --> 00:42:44,315 my feeling 857 00:42:44,694 --> 00:42:45,994 from a creative perspective, 858 00:42:46,295 --> 00:42:49,675 and I know many people who don't feel this way, 859 00:42:50,454 --> 00:42:51,915 is, you know, use 860 00:42:52,295 --> 00:42:53,275 use AI. 861 00:42:54,010 --> 00:42:54,670 You know, 862 00:42:56,330 --> 00:43:00,670 use the Ella large language models and, you know, the the 863 00:43:03,290 --> 00:43:03,790 music 864 00:43:04,650 --> 00:43:08,590 generating apps and the visual generating apps and 865 00:43:09,155 --> 00:43:11,095 make them your own. Do something 866 00:43:12,035 --> 00:43:12,535 interesting 867 00:43:13,395 --> 00:43:14,135 with them. 868 00:43:15,635 --> 00:43:16,115 And, 869 00:43:17,555 --> 00:43:19,335 I wrote a piece for MindPlex 870 00:43:20,515 --> 00:43:21,715 quite a while back, 871 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:23,540 when, 872 00:43:24,137 --> 00:43:27,380 a lot of the controversy about, 873 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:30,020 AI use 874 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:30,820 in 875 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:32,820 the visual 876 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:33,760 and, 877 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:34,580 musical 878 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:36,100 and textual 879 00:43:37,625 --> 00:43:38,685 creative arts, 880 00:43:40,265 --> 00:43:41,724 were being discussed. 881 00:43:42,744 --> 00:43:44,285 And I did contextualize 882 00:43:45,865 --> 00:43:46,525 it within, 883 00:43:46,984 --> 00:43:49,244 what was one of Mondo two thousand's 884 00:43:49,945 --> 00:43:51,005 favorite things, 885 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:53,540 which was fair use and appropriation. 886 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:56,100 And 887 00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:58,740 there's a whole discussion 888 00:43:59,280 --> 00:43:59,780 about, 889 00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:01,540 whether, 890 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,060 these very big profit 891 00:44:06,125 --> 00:44:07,345 driven companies, 892 00:44:07,645 --> 00:44:09,345 how we relate to, 893 00:44:10,925 --> 00:44:11,984 their use 894 00:44:12,765 --> 00:44:14,464 of fair use and appropriation, 895 00:44:15,645 --> 00:44:18,224 and then our use of what they're doing, 896 00:44:18,950 --> 00:44:21,049 for our own use. And 897 00:44:22,150 --> 00:44:24,010 what I wanted to do was 898 00:44:24,470 --> 00:44:25,430 to, put 899 00:44:27,109 --> 00:44:30,329 not a position of advocacy, but a position 900 00:44:30,885 --> 00:44:31,385 of, 901 00:44:33,205 --> 00:44:34,425 looking at the 902 00:44:35,285 --> 00:44:36,345 wild complexity 903 00:44:37,045 --> 00:44:38,185 of the whole thing. 904 00:44:38,565 --> 00:44:41,925 And, it's actually a two part series. One of, 905 00:44:42,485 --> 00:44:46,745 it was going on during the writers' strike. So there was that also 906 00:44:47,180 --> 00:44:49,520 going on. The writers wanted to, 907 00:44:50,460 --> 00:44:52,640 make sure that the large language 908 00:44:53,180 --> 00:44:55,200 models were not taking away 909 00:44:55,820 --> 00:44:56,640 their jobs, 910 00:44:57,820 --> 00:45:00,800 which maybe they were in our, and maybe they aren't. 911 00:45:02,475 --> 00:45:02,975 But, 912 00:45:04,315 --> 00:45:06,815 I wanted to, delve into the complications 913 00:45:08,075 --> 00:45:20,160 around that. Now I'll send you links to those articles that you Terrific. That you can share. Yeah. I think, I mean, you raised to me, I was I'm reminded of Laurie Anderson, you know, the avant garde artist who I think when, 914 00:45:21,339 --> 00:45:21,839 streaming 915 00:45:22,299 --> 00:45:24,160 the streaming debate ignited 916 00:45:24,460 --> 00:45:27,680 in Right. You know, the early two thousands, mid two thousands perhaps, 917 00:45:28,859 --> 00:45:31,925 that I'm reminded that, you know, she, 918 00:45:32,385 --> 00:45:39,365 if I recall correctly, was talking about sort of using some of these new tools as part of her art. And so what I hear you saying is that, 919 00:45:39,665 --> 00:45:44,005 you know, to as opposed to being, as I understand, some are, 920 00:45:44,865 --> 00:45:46,645 offended and afraid of 921 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:52,540 AI and other tools, but you're saying embrace it and turn them into instruments or or tools of art. 922 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:58,940 Absolutely. I mean, if if Mazda 2,000 had one message, it was be like Laurie Anderson. But, 923 00:46:00,425 --> 00:46:08,845 I mean Outstanding if I if well, I missed that, and so I'm glad that That's a high point of, creative brilliance right there. Indeed. Yeah. Indeed. 924 00:46:09,785 --> 00:46:12,425 Yeah. I I jest up to a point, but, 925 00:46:12,984 --> 00:46:13,484 yes. 926 00:46:13,865 --> 00:46:15,244 You know, use the 927 00:46:16,290 --> 00:46:17,510 tools as creatively 928 00:46:17,890 --> 00:46:18,370 as, 929 00:46:19,010 --> 00:46:25,350 as as possible to make the the kind of statements that, you want to you want to make. 930 00:46:28,305 --> 00:46:30,885 So any other takes are you on 931 00:46:32,385 --> 00:46:43,365 empowerment, you know, user empowerment? And I I I think back as best I could and I looked up some archives, you know, I was reminded of some of my favorite articles that you wrote, in Mondo and Beyond 932 00:46:43,839 --> 00:46:45,460 and just that unbridled 933 00:46:45,839 --> 00:46:47,059 sense of possibility. 934 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:48,500 Right. 935 00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:55,780 What if anything, you know, where did you find that today? You you know, we've talked about AI, LMS. I mean, are there other areas, 936 00:46:56,495 --> 00:46:57,395 you know, be it VR, AR, 937 00:46:58,335 --> 00:47:04,435 you know, what gives you or ignites that that same sense perhaps that that many of us had in 938 00:47:04,735 --> 00:47:05,795 the eighties and nineties? 939 00:47:06,735 --> 00:47:08,275 I mean, I remember the 940 00:47:10,230 --> 00:47:10,730 Mondo 941 00:47:11,430 --> 00:47:16,410 editorial or it might have been the reality hackers' editorial that, hackers is the new Prometheus. 942 00:47:18,150 --> 00:47:18,790 You know, that, 943 00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:21,690 you take the tools from the power pole 944 00:47:22,310 --> 00:47:22,630 and, 945 00:47:23,805 --> 00:47:25,825 from the gods and, you, 946 00:47:26,525 --> 00:47:28,125 use them for, 947 00:47:29,244 --> 00:47:29,744 liberation 948 00:47:30,125 --> 00:47:34,945 of the people or just for your for your for your own personal 949 00:47:35,724 --> 00:47:36,865 use. I mean, 950 00:47:37,850 --> 00:47:38,590 I mean, certainly, 951 00:47:38,890 --> 00:47:39,630 you know, 952 00:47:40,090 --> 00:47:40,590 access 953 00:47:40,970 --> 00:47:41,470 to, 954 00:47:44,410 --> 00:47:46,350 potential intelligence increase. 955 00:47:48,330 --> 00:47:49,630 Chemicals and nutrients 956 00:47:50,890 --> 00:47:52,030 seem to be a 957 00:47:53,744 --> 00:47:58,565 field that people are becoming once again more interested in. Biohacking. 958 00:47:59,265 --> 00:47:59,765 Yeah. 959 00:48:01,265 --> 00:48:02,244 The, the, 960 00:48:02,704 --> 00:48:03,204 liberation 961 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,940 that seems to be occurring within society 962 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:08,900 of, 963 00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:10,100 availability 964 00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:11,360 of, 965 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:12,500 psychedelics 966 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,700 as cause cognitive enhancers. 967 00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,460 The, system is being very cautious about 968 00:48:20,145 --> 00:48:24,085 LSD, which, is a at a microdose level is an excellent 969 00:48:24,545 --> 00:48:27,365 cognitive enhancer, but there's, you know, psilocybin. 970 00:48:27,745 --> 00:48:29,205 There there are other 971 00:48:29,505 --> 00:48:31,685 routes to, cognitive enhancement. 972 00:48:32,065 --> 00:48:32,725 So there's 973 00:48:33,265 --> 00:48:35,620 there's that. So on an individual 974 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,820 level, you know, you can you can find 975 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:40,260 enhancers. 976 00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:47,220 You know, I mean, you can get onto the dark net, but you can also just find things that are 977 00:48:47,525 --> 00:48:54,905 that are completely legit and are completely out there. You have to protect yourself against scams and rip offs, 978 00:48:56,245 --> 00:48:57,545 when you're pursuing 979 00:48:58,325 --> 00:48:58,825 enhancement 980 00:48:59,125 --> 00:49:00,025 kind of things. 981 00:49:01,205 --> 00:49:01,525 But, 982 00:49:03,110 --> 00:49:04,890 there's a lot of stuff out there, 983 00:49:05,830 --> 00:49:06,330 for, 984 00:49:07,750 --> 00:49:08,410 the individual 985 00:49:09,030 --> 00:49:09,930 and for groups. 986 00:49:10,710 --> 00:49:11,510 I think that, 987 00:49:12,150 --> 00:49:14,810 Timothy Leary at the end of his life, 988 00:49:20,135 --> 00:49:20,635 emphasized 989 00:49:20,935 --> 00:49:21,435 teamwork, 990 00:49:22,135 --> 00:49:24,955 the idea of getting together in small teams, 991 00:49:26,135 --> 00:49:28,715 and you protect your team against 992 00:49:30,279 --> 00:49:30,779 outside 993 00:49:31,319 --> 00:49:34,279 rip offs and, you know, scams and, 994 00:49:35,240 --> 00:49:36,200 sleaze, but, 995 00:49:38,119 --> 00:49:40,059 but that you do your work 996 00:49:41,240 --> 00:49:42,460 with people. 997 00:49:42,845 --> 00:49:44,305 So it's not just a liberation 998 00:49:44,605 --> 00:49:45,505 of the individual, 999 00:49:46,444 --> 00:49:47,404 but it's the, 1000 00:49:48,045 --> 00:49:48,545 formation 1001 00:49:48,924 --> 00:49:49,424 of, 1002 00:49:50,605 --> 00:49:52,704 small groups, little tribes. 1003 00:49:53,805 --> 00:49:54,305 Man, 1004 00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,180 he did this during his process of dying, 1005 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:01,500 to have a group 1006 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:03,580 around you and to work 1007 00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:05,660 as a team around, 1008 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,420 his needs and around, what can be 1009 00:50:10,365 --> 00:50:10,865 broadcast 1010 00:50:11,165 --> 00:50:13,185 out into the world by having 1011 00:50:13,885 --> 00:50:15,265 by having a team. 1012 00:50:17,325 --> 00:50:17,725 And, 1013 00:50:19,405 --> 00:50:21,425 that's another kind of self enhancement 1014 00:50:21,885 --> 00:50:23,165 is the potential for, 1015 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:26,500 people taking a friendship more 1016 00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:27,460 seriously. 1017 00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:31,760 Very poignant today. Yeah. And as, 1018 00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,780 the trolling world gets more difficult, 1019 00:50:38,650 --> 00:50:39,150 meaning 1020 00:50:39,755 --> 00:50:41,135 leaning into friendship, 1021 00:50:42,715 --> 00:50:45,035 can be a a good thing to, 1022 00:50:45,675 --> 00:50:46,495 start doing. 1023 00:50:46,955 --> 00:51:03,430 And a great reminder as many of us, myself included, spend too much time staring at screens and not enough time touching grass and and hugging friends. Yeah. All that stuff. Yeah. So I'd love to wrap up here. Are you what, what should we look for next from you? I know you mentioned recently you had an event, 1024 00:51:04,290 --> 00:51:05,350 on the Best Coast. 1025 00:51:05,895 --> 00:51:06,135 And, 1026 00:51:06,855 --> 00:51:09,915 anything anything else that we should be looking out for? New album? 1027 00:51:10,375 --> 00:51:18,635 I mean, yeah, the event might be over by the by the time people see this. But if it's not, it's at Gray Area in San Francisco 1028 00:51:19,495 --> 00:51:21,195 on June 7. It's 1029 00:51:21,869 --> 00:51:25,329 titled, come to the Gulf of Deliria at Gray Area. 1030 00:51:26,269 --> 00:51:26,670 And, 1031 00:51:27,230 --> 00:51:30,369 among our guests are Mark Pauline from Survival 1032 00:51:31,069 --> 00:51:32,210 Research Labs, 1033 00:51:33,390 --> 00:51:35,170 the guy who, did the 1034 00:51:35,615 --> 00:51:36,994 wild fire breathing, 1035 00:51:37,615 --> 00:51:42,674 robots out on the streets of San Francisco and all that kind of stuff. 1036 00:51:43,055 --> 00:51:55,200 I don't think he can do that anymore, but, I think he'll probably do Something about permits, maybe? Yeah. We were gonna try to get, he has an indoor machine, but, apparently, it's not gonna fit through the door. So 1037 00:51:55,820 --> 00:51:58,000 that's not gonna happen. We're gonna have Rudy Rucker, 1038 00:51:58,380 --> 00:52:01,040 the cyberpunk science fiction writer there, 1039 00:52:02,860 --> 00:52:03,840 and a lot of 1040 00:52:05,115 --> 00:52:05,615 riders. 1041 00:52:07,275 --> 00:52:09,935 But the music will still be out there. 1042 00:52:11,115 --> 00:52:15,055 The Smarter Kings of Deliria by Are You Serious and Friends. 1043 00:52:15,515 --> 00:52:19,200 That's p h r I e n d z. Yes. 1044 00:52:19,740 --> 00:52:25,100 I'll be, continuing to, write columns from mindplex.ai. 1045 00:52:25,100 --> 00:52:25,420 So, 1046 00:52:25,900 --> 00:52:28,480 that stuff will be out there. I'm doing 1047 00:52:29,180 --> 00:52:32,240 a, book about the history of Mondo 2000 1048 00:52:32,380 --> 00:52:32,540 with, 1049 00:52:33,635 --> 00:52:34,775 Shera Chess, 1050 00:52:35,315 --> 00:52:36,775 who is a 1051 00:52:37,474 --> 00:52:38,295 a, teacher, 1052 00:52:38,595 --> 00:52:39,255 a professor 1053 00:52:40,755 --> 00:52:41,255 in 1054 00:52:42,195 --> 00:52:42,695 media 1055 00:52:43,875 --> 00:52:44,775 and culture 1056 00:52:45,155 --> 00:52:47,415 studies at the University of Georgia. 1057 00:52:48,820 --> 00:52:49,640 So a combination 1058 00:52:50,579 --> 00:52:52,040 of my wild takes 1059 00:52:52,579 --> 00:52:54,119 with her more grounded, 1060 00:52:54,820 --> 00:52:55,320 academic 1061 00:52:55,700 --> 00:52:56,200 and, 1062 00:52:59,540 --> 00:53:00,920 you know, fact based 1063 00:53:01,460 --> 00:53:01,960 materials. 1064 00:53:03,035 --> 00:53:05,295 So that will be available next year. 1065 00:53:05,675 --> 00:53:07,935 Fantastic. We are doing them that 1066 00:53:10,475 --> 00:53:14,175 for Strange Attractor Press. Great day. And they're a subsidiary 1067 00:53:14,475 --> 00:53:14,975 of 1068 00:53:15,275 --> 00:53:15,775 MIT 1069 00:53:16,155 --> 00:53:18,815 Press, so that should be all 1070 00:53:19,410 --> 00:53:19,910 widely 1071 00:53:20,530 --> 00:53:21,030 available. 1072 00:53:22,050 --> 00:53:25,510 So that's a big, big project that we're doing right now. 1073 00:53:26,369 --> 00:53:27,170 So people should, 1074 00:53:28,050 --> 00:53:29,190 look out for that. 1075 00:53:29,809 --> 00:53:43,635 I'm excited for it. I will keep my eyes peeled and keep the, or rather have all those links in included in the show notes. Ari, it's been a pleasure. Real pleasure. I appreciate you taking the time and, getting a shake. On. Yeah. I should've worn my dentures, but, 1076 00:53:44,275 --> 00:53:50,610 I'm not I'm not ashamed. You know? You're great. You're a great man. Thanks so much. I look thinner without them. So 1077 00:53:51,390 --> 00:53:55,890 Yeah. Maybe I look thinner I look thinner without hair. That'll be my honor. That's it. Alright. 1078 00:53:56,430 --> 00:53:59,330 Thanks so much, Ari. Take care. You as well. Bye bye.