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Open state. Welcome. Thank you for taking the time today.

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It's a pleasure to be here. You invited a guy in a mask on your on your podcast. Congratulations, by the way. Appreciate that. Yeah. You are the first to have that distinction, which is great. I've had one NIM, I think, Marks, who's the founder, cofounder and CEO

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of Open Secret, which, you know, kinda keeps us on on topic, but you're my you're my first NIM. So and for good reason. And and in fact, you know, the the reason I reached out and wanted to have a conversation is that you are in an incredibly interesting rare position

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in,

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I believe, from some great conversations you've had with with Stephen, Stefan Lovera, with, Marty Benton and others and your thread on Nostra which I'll post a link to.

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You're in an interesting position to strike a balance between burn it all down on the one side and comply harder, you know, on the other. And so I think that's that's the gist of the conversation I'd like to have with you is to to find

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what middle point or what middle path is there, if there is one, and to get into certainly your experiences, your insights, and what, if anything, we can do to balance out

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the what to me is an incredibly

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off kilter imbalance of of power and trust. And so let's start here.

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You are a NIM for good reason, and therefore, you know, know, it's not as if I'm gonna point people to your LinkedIn or your Facebook profile.

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You've done it before. I'll ask you to do it again here. Give us give us an introduction an introduction,

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OpenState,

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on

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your background,

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where you are, and how you got there,

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and what your work looks like to the degree that you can share that.

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Alright. Well, I used to be a corporate banker, and I used to manage accounts for fairly large businesses that had over a million dollars or more of, corporate lending. And so I used to assess risk. And

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at one point, I just got disillusioned with the whole exercise. I realized

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that the entire system, the entire financial system was really meant and rigged, and it was meant to enrich kind of a very select

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class of individuals.

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And this is done through incentives. It's done through messaging. It's done in a number of different ways, but I saw it and I implemented it.

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So here I was, doing fairly large loans. I was being told that I was helping businesses who needed to have a new warehouse, a new piece of equipment,

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but really I saw through that at some point. I was just facilitating a monetary system that was bloated

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and, really incentivized

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to

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really help the corrupt make more money.

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When a bank

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doesn't have the money it lines out, is that system really fair? Because the the borrower needs to pay interest.

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I saw the huge bonuses. You know, I got huge bonuses. It was great, but I couldn't sleep at night.

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So wanting to make a difference.

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I looked for roles. I looked for jobs. Kind of at a point where I I wanted to make a difference.

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And I saw a few roles being advertised within my government. So I said, well, you know what? There's no way I'm gonna get this. I'm just gonna apply.

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I applied, and it just so happened they needed somebody with banking experience.

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So they took me on as a

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policy and legislation

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adviser, which is what I do currently. I've been doing it for a number of years.

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And my initial

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role was to really help

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create and draft legislation and policy

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that would help the local industry in my jurisdiction.

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I work in a jurisdiction

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with a very large financial

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sector, financial services sector.

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And so

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I saw that as a a plus and say, well, this is my opportunity to really help and really do something that means

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that will affect change around me. I said, let's do it. So I joined the government. And literally, the first day or two after I joined,

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they asked me, well, do you know what

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the SETF is? And so I I had no idea at the time. I really didn't know. But I I had to hit the ground running

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because my focus

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changed from banking

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to implementing anti money laundering standards,

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which is what you I think you're based in The US. That's the Bank Secrecy Act. Right. It among a number of other anti money laundering pieces

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of legislation.

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So my role shifted very, very quickly, and then I actually helped draft about 12 different pieces of legislation

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that implemented

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these anti money laundering global standards in my country. So as a bit of background, I mean, I'm I'd be repeating myself if I just went through all this again, but

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my focus of the other talks that I give is really about the

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subjugation

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of sovereignty

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by global standard setting bodies. So

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I heard you speak about the DSA in one or two of your previous previous podcasts.

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Yep. US won't be able to remove or or abolish the DSA

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until it settles its position

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in those global standard setting bodies.

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The FATF, the Financial Action Task Force, is the global standard setting body that sets all of the requirements

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that countries are,

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for all of sense and purposes,

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obligated

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to implement

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when it comes to KYC,

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when it comes to limits,

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suspicious activity reporting,

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or recording and detention and

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maintenance of beneficial ownership information,

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sanctions.

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All of those things fall within this umbrella and are, to some extent, dictated by the Financial Action Task Force.

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So the Financial Action Task Force is really,

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it's a global forum

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where unelected bureaucrats like me

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of various different countries meet and discuss, oh, what should we do next?

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What do we see as wrong? What can we do to fix it?

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And even though

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elected officials have the ultimate say,

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they are not experts. So your your elected representative,

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they trust the unelected bureaucrats like me who go to those forums,

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who have those important discussions,

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and come back and say, well, here's what we need to do. And they have a list

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list of five, ten, twenty, thirty, fifty different things that have to be implemented. And the FETF works by a system of mutual evaluation reports

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where countries mutually

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evaluate themselves.

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You might be interested to know what The US is due for its evaluation next year. So What would that look like? What would that, in practice, open up The United States to or require The United States financial regulatory

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bodies to to conduct or do?

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So there is a distinction between anti money laundering and regulation.

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A lot of people can confound the two. Certainly.

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However,

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anti money laundering is seen more as a criminal offense than a regulatory type of requirement.

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And so if you're engaged in, you know,

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financing terrorism

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or you're you're

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laundering the proceeds of crime

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and here, the word crime, by the way, is increasingly nebulous,

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where even just speaking out on social media is now

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perceived as a crime.

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So as the term is made more nebulous, its implementation

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will also expand and

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be prone to

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an assessment and ambiguity.

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And so the FATF

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would meet they set the standards. They said, well, here's what we see types of criminal activities happening. Here's what the criminals are doing.

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What can we do to stop it? And that's that's basically

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what they say happens at those meetings.

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This is the formal side of things. And then they meet and they argue for hours and hours and days and days on a particular word, a particular requirement that has to be put in,

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and then it's added to the standards, and then a country like The United States has to implement it.

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During

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the implementation phase, which is typically two, three years,

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a country can have some leeway as to how it implements it.

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However, if it deviates in any way in its implementation,

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it will have to justify why it deviated.

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So if it used a specific term that isn't in the standard,

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then assessors will come to the country and look at all the laws,

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how they're applied, and say, well, look, you're using this term. It's different.

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And then the country will have to explain, well, we chose this because of that. And really, the point is to be

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assessed under a microscope

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to make sure that you're implementing

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the standards exactly to the letter. There's 40 standards pause there for a moment. Sorry about state. So one thing I'm curious about, and I think it's important certainly, I'm curious about is given, as you said rightly, that this is an unelected

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group of bureaucrats.

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When you say have to, what are the carrots and sticks that FATF has

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to and I will I'll use The United States in as much as,

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you know, we tend to be the most bravado. Certainly, under the current administration, there is not a tendency to bend the knee, tendency

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to

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bend

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the knee

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to European

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or other entities. What are those carrots and sticks? What what could FATF do if they come to The United States and Department of Treasury,

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I presume, has not complied in a way that they see as necessary. Oh, you're right in that The United States is at a very kind of unique position because of its role in the global financial system. But I think you're wrong about the bravado, and I think the bravado is a verbal one. Here's my opinion.

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Sure.

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Please. Trump was actually the one.

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Mhmm. The United States had presidency over the financial action task force

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when Trump was in office, and that's when they implemented

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KYC

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requirements for Bitcoin and digital assets.

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Now

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what happens if a country decides not to follow these requirements? Essentially, they get a negative rating. So the ratings follow a largely compliant,

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compliant, noncompliant,

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or partially compliant kind of rating system.

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If you get a noncompliant or partially compliant, which are the two negative ratings, you know, will be assessed as a higher risk jurisdiction for antimony laundering depending on which requirement it is. So for example,

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if it's about the transparency

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of your legal entities in your jurisdiction,

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if you get a partially complaint on that, it means your legal entities are very opaque, which is a very high risk

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and could be very useful for criminals if they want to launder money. So that would be a serious negative rating.

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When your country receives a negative rating,

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typically, the FATF gives you a period to redress or gives you the option to say, well, do you wanna fix this?

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While you're fixing it, you're put on a gray list. It's a it's a it's a period of observation. It's called a gray list. It's just a common term.

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You'll have time then to fix the situation. Right? You'll be reassessed after that. And if you still don't do it properly, then the global financial

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center

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centers and the TradFi, the traditional financial system in the world, then that kicks in.

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When you look at Moody's, when you look at countries a country's rating for for debt, when you look at correspondent and respondent banking relationships,

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all of those are based on largely on the FATF's rating system. So

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for The

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US, being in its own kind of class

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may not have that big of an impact because most worldwide jurisdictions have a correspondent relationship with The US. And so really, if The US doesn't follow it,

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we we're still gonna maintain those relationships. Right. But if you're the multiverse

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However,

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it is The US

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which has been the driving force behind the FATF.

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And why do you why do you think or why do you know that to be the case?

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Oh, I don't know that to be the case. I only know what I see. Right? And currently, The US and Europe are the two largest drivers behind the FATF

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work. And let me rephrase, and that was not to challenge your knowledge. Happy to do that if that if that comes to it. But what I mean by that is

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what is in it for The United States? What do you believe to be the incentives or the motivations

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behind

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taking the pole position, as it were, with FATA.

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There's a large number of benefits for a country to have this kind of a framework in place. One is the ability to

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ring fence or put some kind of limits on global financial

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transfers.

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Also, it gives you a certain is tax revenue?

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Well, yes. Yeah. I was gonna get there. Yeah. Please go ahead. Having perfect information,

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you know, we've talked about CBDCs

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as a community.

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I think people know what that is by now.

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We know the dangers of that.

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Well, essentially, if you use the traditional financial network through the main banks, if you use your bank account, you're already using something akin to a CDDC where the government has perfect information, is able to freeze your money without the process.

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The travel rule is something that's being implemented and still being implemented. It's It's problematic, but that was actually put in place

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while the SETF. Was under the United States presidency.

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And this is good to know.

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Right. So The US has been a driving force behind these KYC

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global standards.

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And

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I think the number one reason is control and information.

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What the point of that control, what the ultimate goal of that might be, that's subjective speculation.

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But having perfect information on financial flows,

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I think, is the number one reason. And being able to control them and to bypass due process. So the FATF and sorry. Financial the financial system KYC

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requirements

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are really a foot in the door

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to erode

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due process and erode our rights.

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Searching

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without a warrant used to be

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illegal.

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Now it's perfectly acceptable for The United States to do it, for the government to ask a bank for all of your transactions or to be able to place extra legal,

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yeah, a toolkit. So all of that is actually

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possible today because of the FETF and the requirements that it

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requires countries to implement. For a different country, and I'm talking outside The United States, not following the FATF's requirements has immense consequences

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because of their relationship

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to The United States. The United States is essentially the main

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stick

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behind the FATF.

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Most banks, if you're in Uzbekistan, you're in Uruguay, you wanna have a correspondent relationship with The US financial institution.

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Could you quickly,

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my background, I do appreciate and understand what a correspondent bank is and does. Could you could you give us a a quick primer on that and as to then why that is so important?

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United States was a global

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trade currency

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and take Uruguay, for example. If a certain industry wants to buy equipment or sell their product,

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it's not gonna be done in the local currency. It's gonna be done in the US dollar. So those businesses, those people need US dollars in order to trade internationally.

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And the only way to obtain US dollars is through

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a kind of clearing relationship

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with The US banks of JP Morgan, etcetera.

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So a local Uruguayan bank

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will have a relationship with JPMorgan,

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which will then allow the bank in Uruguay

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to obtain US dollars. And once the Uruguayan bank has them, they're able to give them out to the local enterprises so they can trade, etcetera.

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So

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that is the implementation of the stick, and it's basically The United States that enforces this

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through their traditional

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banking network. If we if we back up a bit, and I do I am curious about this. So coming from it sounds like commercial banking

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prior to your role in in your government. How does one how did you not know what you were walking into? I mean, is it possible to operate in a bank

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and not already be buried in,

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compliance requirements including FADF and other? So, where where was sort of the disconnect between your role in commercial banking and then stepping in,

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you know, to the hornet's nest in my view, in terms of the need now to be part of implementing

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the standards and these regulatory regimes.

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You can't see me smiling right now. Are you are you saying that, judgment? Is that it? No. Well, one might one might charitably assume that that, you know, there was there was,

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maybe some some some hopeful naivete, but you tell me. Right. I'll I'll let you know what I saw from the banking side. If a new business wants to have a relationship with us, we needed to know who their owners were, who the directors were. We need to have KYC and all those people.

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We, as a bank, have perfect information

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on the accounts, the usage,

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the balances,

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the type of financial activity going on. We see through their financials, where they are, where they stand, etcetera. So a bank is used to receiving

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all the information it wants, especially if there's a lending relationship.

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So for me, that's what I saw, and I saw the justification for it. Now going to government,

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that's when I realized

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that the government

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also obtains this information. And that's something I didn't know. I didn't know the extent

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of the anti money laundering requirements and what happens behind the scenes.

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And that's

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really why I created this NIM

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is so that I can speak out, speak freely,

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and just alert people that this is happening. It's getting worse. You have the CARF system, which is coming in 2020. Crypto asset reporting framework. Mhmm. That's

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spearheaded by the same organization that's responsible

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for the FATF.

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Okay. Okay.

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You also have a global taxation framework that's being put in place for businesses,

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and they're also talking about a pillar three,

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which is a global

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taxation system for wealthy individuals. So once

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you kind of go behind the scene,

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I've sat in discussions. I've sat in with meetings with the FATF, the team that assessed my country, my my jurisdiction.

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I was part in defending my jurisdiction so we could get good ratings.

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I've put in legislation.

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I've assessed the requirements,

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identified the gaps.

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I've essentially delivered what my mandate is supposed to be,

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but something

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basically didn't sit right within me, and that's why I created this this new.

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So looking at The entire system, it was a wake up call. It was a greater wake up call than what I lived

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through when I was a commercial banker.

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Much more worrisome for me, what I'm seeing now, than what I saw working for a bank.

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So there was some optimism, maybe some naivete. However,

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I'm glad I

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actually

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opted to choose because now,

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hopefully, I can do something about it.

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Absolutely. And it does make sense as you explained that that in commercial lending,

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the required information is inbound, is volunteered. You're not in a position where you effectively need to hover above and surveil and collect. It is willingly given to you because I'm a business that wishes to obtain a loan from you. So that makes a great deal of sense.

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So you are to sort of summarize and take this forward a bit, you're a civil servant implementing

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local implementations

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or or putting in place local implementations of global standards.

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You've touched on this.

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What are some of the key observations that you can share that have shaped your view on how much damage these policies do, how much trust they erode

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between one's government and and the individual. And I'll add one thing. I I think there will be a percentage of the audience, and I've had previous conversations recorded on this with other guests,

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who I think understandably

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look at KYC, they look at the Bank Secrecy Act or equivalent,

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and they

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some would say naively, some would say, you know, in a good natured fashion, think, well, of course, You know, just like 2% inflation in The United States. Well, of course, that's the way it's done.

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So in speaking to those individuals

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who may not appreciate the gravity of these tools, these these

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global bodies and their rules,

285
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What have you seen

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that is a wake up call as to how they are a net negative, assuming you believe they are?

287
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I'll take an angled approach to answering your question, if you don't mind. Please.

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By stating that

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your ancestors and the DNA that allows you to live today, that comprises who you are as a as a person, as a human being,

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that DNA comes from a long list of ancestors. You can go up back ten thousand years. Those ancestors have lived through

291
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everything, war, famine,

292
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viruses,

293
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black death in medieval times.

294
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One thing that is instrumental to you having the life you have to live today is your ancestors

295
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fought for due process and a respect of rights, which used to be a kind of a foundational part of The United States.

296
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Sacrosanct.

297
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Right. So, you know, expression, the right to property. Right? Benefiting of safety, being safe,

298
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and being respected and not having somebody know everything about you and not having somebody put you to jail for no reason without telling you first and allowing you the opportunity to defend yourself.

299
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We take those for granted, but they didn't just arrive. It wasn't the government that gave those to us.

300
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It was our ancestors who fought for them with their lives quite literally.

301
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We all have ancestors

302
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that fought,

303
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at least in the Western world or even in Eastern world. We all have ancestors who fought for something they believed in, to implement

304
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a foundation

305
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of rights in order for their

306
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children to have a better life.

307
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If you look at AML and KYC today, it might be small. It might be acceptable.

308
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However, it is an erosion

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of those rights.

310
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And the erosion, once that crack is is put in place,

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it's never going away.

312
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You know that you have to remove your shoes when you take an an airplane.

313
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You have to go through that machine where you have to raise your hands because

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of the state of emergency that started in 09/11. It's being renewed every year. Since. That's what allows that because

315
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you have a right

316
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to have somebody not search your bags.

317
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They need to have a warrant to do that, or they used to.

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Never let any tragedy go to waste, as they say.

319
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So so that crack is a an erosion of the rights that your ancestors fought for

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that many people today

321
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don't really value much because they take it for granted.

322
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Yes.

323
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And it's only when it's lost, of course, that you realize what you had. So the ability for you to transact, the ability for you to speak your own mind, the ability for you

324
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to be able to buy things that you want, to say things that you want, to criticize the government,

325
00:24:20,149 --> 00:24:25,345
all of those things are based on these rights that are being eroded today. The UK

326
00:24:25,725 --> 00:24:33,265
has set up legislation that's criminalizing speech, Germany, even The US to some extent, Canada certainly.

327
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And so,

328
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really, to the people who look at KYC

329
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and don't get angry, that's fine. I respect every single human being out there.

330
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However,

331
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there has to be some awareness of the erosion of the rights that were given to us by our ancestors

332
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who fought for them, and we have to take that gift and

333
00:24:57,605 --> 00:25:05,625
I very much appreciate that perspective, and I think it is very important to point that out that it was not always this way, and it was dramatically different. I mean, there are

334
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films, novels,

335
00:25:09,060 --> 00:25:20,520
chronicling of history in the not so distant past where we traveled without passports. We, you know, which would be a hot button issue certainly in The United States these days, but that we could conduct international commerce that,

336
00:25:20,895 --> 00:25:29,635
God forbid, you had a Swiss bank account. Right? And, I know my perspective, my views on these things have evolved, but I think as you're as you're pointing out, this ultimately

337
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comes down to our ability to think, speak, act,

338
00:25:35,140 --> 00:25:36,360
transact freely,

339
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and so much as we are not, you know, violating the rights and property of others. And, you know For for somebody who's new to this, I mean,

340
00:25:45,940 --> 00:25:48,920
you know everything about a government. You have democracy,

341
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and you have transparency.

342
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But if the government knows everything about you,

343
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you have a very high probability of tyranny.

344
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Awesome. And and there's an

345
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asymmetry

346
00:26:02,820 --> 00:26:06,840
between how much the government knows about you and how much you know about the government.

347
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Whereas the government has been putting in place powers and legislation through the FCTF and other, like, other organizations

348
00:26:15,445 --> 00:26:17,085
in order to have that Information.

349
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The the ability of citizens to know about the government

350
00:26:20,565 --> 00:26:23,705
is relegated to some FOI laws that were done

351
00:26:24,565 --> 00:26:26,025
dozens, you know, fifty

352
00:26:26,485 --> 00:26:28,265
plus years ago in most jurisdictions.

353
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So

354
00:26:30,510 --> 00:26:32,450
those FOI laws need to

355
00:26:33,310 --> 00:26:35,330
be revised. They need to be updated.

356
00:26:36,190 --> 00:26:42,450
You know, if you ask me what an ideal FOI law is, is to have a law that says that everything that a government

357
00:26:43,035 --> 00:26:45,055
civil servant elected representative

358
00:26:46,235 --> 00:26:49,295
does has to be made public, and there's a timer.

359
00:26:50,475 --> 00:26:52,255
So things that aren't highly critical

360
00:26:53,115 --> 00:27:02,250
are made public right away. So people can look at their elected representative's email and say, alright. Well, what what has this person been saying, etcetera.

361
00:27:02,870 --> 00:27:05,530
Everything that you send to an elected representative,

362
00:27:05,990 --> 00:27:08,010
you have to know that it will be made public.

363
00:27:08,549 --> 00:27:11,530
For things that are very sensitive, like this attack on Iran,

364
00:27:11,885 --> 00:27:14,865
you don't want people to know that right away so you put a timer.

365
00:27:15,885 --> 00:27:19,425
And the timer has to go through checks in order to be obtained.

366
00:27:19,965 --> 00:27:22,305
Once it's obtained, you've proven that it's

367
00:27:22,605 --> 00:27:25,745
a time sensitive critical issue that people can't know about,

368
00:27:26,090 --> 00:27:27,950
then maybe it's released in five years,

369
00:27:28,250 --> 00:27:30,270
but it will be released. Absolutely

370
00:27:30,570 --> 00:27:33,870
nothing that government does should be kept a secret. Nothing.

371
00:27:35,130 --> 00:27:37,310
And, ultimately, it's just a matter of time.

372
00:27:37,850 --> 00:27:40,830
Because if you look at the JFK files, you look at

373
00:27:41,794 --> 00:27:44,455
whatever investigation the FBI does, ultimately,

374
00:27:44,835 --> 00:27:47,414
after fifty years, is it still critical,

375
00:27:47,715 --> 00:27:54,695
time sensitive? And the answer is yes only if people acted wrongly because they wanna hide what they did. If people did

376
00:27:55,380 --> 00:28:01,960
what they did and they followed the law and they did so in good conscience and there's no negative foul play involved,

377
00:28:02,500 --> 00:28:04,280
they won't mind if it's made public.

378
00:28:04,900 --> 00:28:10,120
In the end, it's just a matter of times. Those FOI laws really need to be updated.

379
00:28:11,164 --> 00:28:12,784
Do I think it's gonna happen?

380
00:28:13,645 --> 00:28:16,705
I see in my ministry, in my department,

381
00:28:17,645 --> 00:28:19,105
I see an inherent

382
00:28:20,524 --> 00:28:21,024
assumption

383
00:28:21,725 --> 00:28:24,065
that the government has the right to know absolutely

384
00:28:24,524 --> 00:28:26,385
everything about its citizens.

385
00:28:26,830 --> 00:28:31,890
Right. It's not even something that's discussed. It's not it's not even brought up as should we.

386
00:28:32,190 --> 00:28:36,210
It's, well, we need to know this. Let's do it. And and with that information

387
00:28:36,910 --> 00:28:37,410
comes

388
00:28:37,710 --> 00:28:38,930
immense liability

389
00:28:40,475 --> 00:28:42,095
potential for for misuse.

390
00:28:42,475 --> 00:28:47,535
Certainly. Breaches or or otherwise. Absa. We see this we see this every week, it seem.

391
00:28:48,475 --> 00:28:48,975
Yeah.

392
00:28:49,675 --> 00:28:50,975
And I think what's particularly

393
00:28:51,435 --> 00:29:09,150
what the takeaway for me, and I hope our audience is for this, is the remark that in a true democracy, the government knows little about the people, the people know everything about the government, and the inverse is tyranny. And I think that is that's the call to arms to me is that we can observe,

394
00:29:09,725 --> 00:29:11,265
I think, easily, readily

395
00:29:12,045 --> 00:29:18,705
that we are in a panopticon. We as citizens, as individuals are in a complete and total panopticon as classically defined,

396
00:29:19,405 --> 00:29:22,465
where the government fights for the minimal amount,

397
00:29:23,325 --> 00:29:24,545
performative transparency.

398
00:29:25,570 --> 00:29:29,830
So the question I think, you know, is what have you what have you seen

399
00:29:30,370 --> 00:29:32,710
that has most ignited or informed

400
00:29:33,250 --> 00:29:41,165
your perspective? I don't know if you care to add any any particular examples. Again, I know that can be touchy, but I think you have more than adequately addressed

401
00:29:41,785 --> 00:29:43,005
at a macro level

402
00:29:43,385 --> 00:29:43,885
why

403
00:29:44,345 --> 00:29:45,165
the inaction,

404
00:29:45,625 --> 00:29:49,965
or enacting of these of these rules and these bodies is is a tremendous problem.

405
00:29:51,480 --> 00:30:01,580
I mean, there's a lot of different threads that I could pull here. Let's just pull on one, say, incentives. And there is one that I do wanna pull, and, you know, I will use the the opportunity

406
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:20,835
to speak with you to kind of release something that's been near and dear to me for for a while. Oh, yeah. But let's just start on incentives within government. For a civil servant like me. Right? Now some civil servants, most people are like, they're getting paid a lot of money. They have huge pensions. They have all these benefits for working within government.

407
00:30:22,010 --> 00:30:22,909
Yes and no.

408
00:30:24,010 --> 00:30:29,149
Most of the money is made when a civil servant goes back to private sector.

409
00:30:29,450 --> 00:30:39,345
Sure. The revolving door. They'll use their experience, their connections within the government to sell themselves, and that's really where they make the money. Every civil servant knows this.

410
00:30:39,965 --> 00:30:48,065
The career civil servants that are enrolled for ten plus years are very dedicated to their work, and those are my colleagues. They're very dedicated.

411
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:53,100
They go to the training. They're told anti money laundering is a requirement

412
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,100
or else criminals will misuse

413
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,100
our banks, our real estate.

414
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:03,580
They'll do crooked things. Mhmm. We don't want that. And so they are really dedicated

415
00:31:04,975 --> 00:31:15,955
to ensuring that their jurisdiction isn't used for money laundering and other things. They feel like they're fighting a good fight. I presume. They're fighting a good fight. And and a lot of them are not getting paid that much compared to the private sector.

416
00:31:16,255 --> 00:31:27,340
And so No. That's the default in The United States. It well, you know, when you when you open that up, I'll just say that in The US, I think, unless you're at the absolute top tiers, it is the backroom dealings and the and the second career where you make your money.

417
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,540
The the incentive then is to build relationship with the private sectors.

418
00:31:33,065 --> 00:31:37,645
It's to build relationship with the people you're meant to Regulate, to limit.

419
00:31:38,345 --> 00:31:44,205
You have these big companies that come in and they want something. They'll lobby for something. As a civil servant,

420
00:31:44,505 --> 00:31:47,325
you're gonna meet somebody up for supper at a conference.

421
00:31:48,250 --> 00:31:54,669
Really, what's going on behind your mind is, how can I sell myself to get that big contract from this person in front of me?

422
00:31:55,529 --> 00:31:57,870
And so the incentive for a civil servant,

423
00:31:58,490 --> 00:32:01,309
other things as well. For example, being sent to

424
00:32:01,610 --> 00:32:02,830
Hawaii or

425
00:32:04,015 --> 00:32:05,795
Paris for a conference,

426
00:32:06,175 --> 00:32:10,595
going to a five star hotel while you're at that conference, getting all your meals paid.

427
00:32:11,775 --> 00:32:13,554
Those things are what incentivize

428
00:32:14,655 --> 00:32:20,850
civil servants. And so that's wrong if you ask me because people will act in their own best self interest.

429
00:32:21,630 --> 00:32:28,210
And in this particular case, it doesn't align with the interests of the citizens if you ask me, in my opinion.

430
00:32:29,230 --> 00:32:36,395
And so that's the incentive system. If you ask me what a good incentive system should be, well, I think all civil servants should get a bonus

431
00:32:37,435 --> 00:32:40,575
Yes. GDP per capita in a jurisdiction window.

432
00:32:41,195 --> 00:32:43,215
And it should be directly proportionate

433
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,180
with the increase in the wealth of citizens.

434
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,740
And you could do this you could do this on a gross or net, you know, after inflation,

435
00:32:52,200 --> 00:33:07,955
doesn't matter. That that's But you anyone I would just say anyone who's worked in sales as I as I have and do, you know, that's that's a team bonus. And, generally, it's an individual bonus, but in the case of being unable to measure individual contributions, you can at least measure the contributions of the team to the goal, and you get a proportionate

436
00:33:08,575 --> 00:33:19,420
participation in that. So once again, you know, private sector, obvious, government, it sounds like it would be quite novel. It would be novel and it makes complete sense for a civil servant to get a bonus if the people

437
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:26,380
are impacted by the laws that the civil servant puts in place or creates or the policies that it suggests.

438
00:33:27,215 --> 00:33:35,555
If the population's doing well, if the businesses are doing well, that should bring about a bonus, but there's no such incentive program in government.

439
00:33:36,175 --> 00:33:36,915
And so

440
00:33:37,295 --> 00:33:40,435
the first thing that that's one of the things that I realized.

441
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:50,860
Right? The incentives are all wrong. And I saw the incentives in the banking, my banking career. Right? There's all those sales. It's all about doesn't matter what the business should have in terms of leverage.

442
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,180
Increase that loan to the maximum.

443
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:54,140
Right?

444
00:33:55,755 --> 00:33:56,255
So

445
00:33:56,995 --> 00:33:57,495
in

446
00:33:58,395 --> 00:34:00,655
But there is something else that I've realized

447
00:34:01,515 --> 00:34:06,015
that really weighs heavy, and I haven't spoken about this in any of my other presentations,

448
00:34:06,475 --> 00:34:06,975
is

449
00:34:07,275 --> 00:34:08,495
I think having

450
00:34:09,115 --> 00:34:10,815
a government that is trustworthy

451
00:34:12,309 --> 00:34:12,809
requires

452
00:34:13,270 --> 00:34:15,210
the involvement of its citizens.

453
00:34:16,470 --> 00:34:17,290
And that,

454
00:34:17,829 --> 00:34:19,450
I find, is probably

455
00:34:19,829 --> 00:34:22,329
my perspective from within the government,

456
00:34:22,869 --> 00:34:24,410
looking back at a population

457
00:34:25,375 --> 00:34:26,195
that delegates

458
00:34:26,575 --> 00:34:27,715
political power,

459
00:34:29,055 --> 00:34:38,035
the only thing they'll do other than discussing it with their neighbor or friends is go to a voting block, tick up one of the names there, and put that ballot

460
00:34:38,530 --> 00:34:39,030
in.

461
00:34:40,290 --> 00:34:42,150
And that's, for most people,

462
00:34:42,610 --> 00:34:44,310
the extent of their involvement

463
00:34:44,610 --> 00:34:49,030
in the political world. At least the extent of their involvement that has any impact,

464
00:34:49,570 --> 00:34:53,910
however little that is. And that's something that I see. Now I've created legislation.

465
00:34:54,345 --> 00:34:55,005
I've created

466
00:34:55,705 --> 00:34:57,645
legislation. I didn't like what I was creating,

467
00:34:58,265 --> 00:35:00,045
but we have to consult on it.

468
00:35:00,505 --> 00:35:04,045
So I sent the legislation. I did the consultation process. Nobody

469
00:35:04,505 --> 00:35:10,810
commented. Nobody raised their voices. They probably read it as a lawyer, as an accountant, whatever your

470
00:35:11,430 --> 00:35:21,590
profession that person was, they read it. They're like, oh, I need to adjust this and this and this. My business plan needs to change for this new law. So they they took it if I hear you, they took it as,

471
00:35:22,635 --> 00:35:28,495
a settled matter, and I'm now going to react to it as opposed to attempt to affect or change it.

472
00:35:29,515 --> 00:35:30,015
Exactly.

473
00:35:30,475 --> 00:35:32,415
What I really wish would've happened

474
00:35:33,915 --> 00:35:35,055
is for the calculation

475
00:35:35,675 --> 00:35:36,655
of my jurisdiction

476
00:35:37,180 --> 00:35:48,320
to look at that law and go, wait a second. What's this? And I've spoken to people on the side saying, well, you know, have a look at this consultation. I've pushed them. You know? The little that I can, I've pushed them.

477
00:35:49,115 --> 00:35:50,655
But they still don't speak up.

478
00:35:51,115 --> 00:36:01,055
And they don't speak up because of an inherent fear of speaking up or just the belief that they don't know political things or legal things or

479
00:36:01,539 --> 00:36:02,039
laziness.

480
00:36:03,299 --> 00:36:07,400
And I have to admit, sadly, that there is a lot of laziness

481
00:36:08,180 --> 00:36:08,680
Absolutely.

482
00:36:09,299 --> 00:36:11,160
The general population. And

483
00:36:11,460 --> 00:36:13,799
let's just admit it. It's easier to watch Netflix

484
00:36:14,500 --> 00:36:17,174
than it is to look at a consultation.

485
00:36:17,714 --> 00:36:23,974
Yeah. Laziness or fatigue. And so a a related question, if I may, I you know, I'm thinking about my own sort of relationship

486
00:36:24,515 --> 00:36:25,734
to that. I think,

487
00:36:26,674 --> 00:36:30,375
for me, certainly, I presume for a lot of my fellow Americans,

488
00:36:31,100 --> 00:36:34,080
there is a sense that it is screaming into the void,

489
00:36:34,460 --> 00:36:39,340
you know, that sure the FCC may post on some terribly designed fcc.gov

490
00:36:39,340 --> 00:36:43,440
site, for commentary, but, you know, it'll get lost in the void

491
00:36:43,985 --> 00:36:48,885
or it is just so cumbersome which can be written off to laziness. So the question I have,

492
00:36:49,185 --> 00:36:52,645
do you do you believe there is something particular to your

493
00:36:53,185 --> 00:36:53,685
jurisdiction

494
00:36:53,985 --> 00:36:57,205
where they are better at or more attuned

495
00:36:57,985 --> 00:36:58,725
to listening

496
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:09,660
Or are are you perhaps advocating more broadly that we just as citizens need to need to take that opportunity because it is under under Application of global standards.

497
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:11,500
For example, the BSA.

498
00:37:12,645 --> 00:37:13,945
Say you want

499
00:37:14,245 --> 00:37:17,065
to start a campaign to abolish the BSA.

500
00:37:17,365 --> 00:37:22,105
Look at Let's do it. Adele. Let's do it. I'm looking at Adele right now. Absolutely.

501
00:37:22,725 --> 00:37:23,225
But

502
00:37:24,085 --> 00:37:25,705
assuming you wanna do that,

503
00:37:26,470 --> 00:37:28,490
you're gonna send letters. You're gonna

504
00:37:28,950 --> 00:37:29,450
lobby.

505
00:37:30,310 --> 00:37:31,770
You're gonna talk to representatives.

506
00:37:32,150 --> 00:37:35,350
Let's say you talk to senator Lummis. Senator Lummis is

507
00:37:35,750 --> 00:37:38,890
this is a great idea. Let's do it. And senator Lummis

508
00:37:39,555 --> 00:37:42,694
is able to convince magically everybody,

509
00:37:43,315 --> 00:37:45,974
everybody around her, all of her other life.

510
00:37:47,714 --> 00:37:50,295
Just a miracle. She's able to do that. Indeed.

511
00:37:51,075 --> 00:37:56,240
Now In order to affect that change, the jurisdiction has to look at the consequence

512
00:37:56,540 --> 00:37:58,000
of abolishing the DSA

513
00:37:58,460 --> 00:37:59,280
with respect

514
00:37:59,660 --> 00:38:00,640
to the global

515
00:38:01,100 --> 00:38:05,600
standard setting bodies and the requirements on the standards that they put in place.

516
00:38:06,305 --> 00:38:09,685
So now The US has to say, what do we lose by doing this?

517
00:38:10,065 --> 00:38:12,325
Well, we lose something that we fought

518
00:38:12,785 --> 00:38:13,525
to implement

519
00:38:13,985 --> 00:38:16,965
for the last fifty years, since 1991.

520
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:19,620
Not only that,

521
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:21,940
we're also harming our banks

522
00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:27,460
who won't have access to all the anti money laundering beneficial ownership information,

523
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:29,300
which is a huge honeypot

524
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:31,700
for banks. Let's be honest.

525
00:38:32,275 --> 00:38:34,615
Sure. And we lose information

526
00:38:34,995 --> 00:38:35,975
on taxable

527
00:38:36,515 --> 00:38:37,015
activities

528
00:38:37,315 --> 00:38:43,175
that our citizens are doing. And even if they get through all of those and they say, we're willing to assume the risk,

529
00:38:44,250 --> 00:38:50,830
then the decision has to be made. Well, do we remain in this global standard setting body like the FATF?

530
00:38:51,450 --> 00:38:53,390
Or do we leave it? If they choose to remain,

531
00:38:54,250 --> 00:38:54,750
which

532
00:38:55,050 --> 00:39:07,635
I think is really whether to remain or leave is really a decision that The US has. No other country in the world has that option. Now if they choose to leave, great. I mean, fantastic. But then they'll have there'll be severe consequences.

533
00:39:08,095 --> 00:39:11,395
Most jurisdictions don't have that option, so they they stay.

534
00:39:12,279 --> 00:39:12,779
Okay.

535
00:39:15,799 --> 00:39:17,019
Unelected bureaucrat

536
00:39:17,319 --> 00:39:18,059
like me

537
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,779
goes to an FETF plenary

538
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:23,819
and then has to raise their hand

539
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:25,579
has to raise their hand.

540
00:39:25,974 --> 00:39:30,555
And go, well well, actually, my government has this opinion now. We shouldn't be

541
00:39:31,015 --> 00:39:31,515
doing

542
00:39:32,135 --> 00:39:34,795
KYC. We shouldn't be doing this or that or that.

543
00:39:35,815 --> 00:39:37,435
There's 40 other countries

544
00:39:38,540 --> 00:39:39,760
in the FATF

545
00:39:40,700 --> 00:39:41,200
membership

546
00:39:41,980 --> 00:39:43,359
that you have to convince

547
00:39:43,660 --> 00:39:44,480
at that level

548
00:39:45,099 --> 00:39:48,720
in order to remove that requirement. So not only is it a miracle

549
00:39:49,420 --> 00:39:51,359
for Lummis to have convinced everybody

550
00:39:51,820 --> 00:39:52,800
in The US.

551
00:39:53,535 --> 00:39:56,675
Multiply that by 40. Right. All that effort

552
00:39:57,135 --> 00:39:58,035
times 40.

553
00:39:58,494 --> 00:40:04,994
Because now you have to to convince a majority of these well, 20. You have to convince a majority of those other jurisdictions

554
00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:07,099
to remove that requirement.

555
00:40:07,559 --> 00:40:08,779
So this is a centralization

556
00:40:09,799 --> 00:40:11,740
of policy making and development,

557
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:13,339
and that centralization

558
00:40:14,519 --> 00:40:15,500
essentially removes

559
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:16,859
your ability

560
00:40:17,815 --> 00:40:21,435
to have an impact or say on what you have to

561
00:40:22,295 --> 00:40:23,755
what what governs you.

562
00:40:24,615 --> 00:40:25,675
This global

563
00:40:26,535 --> 00:40:31,595
these global standard setting bodies, there are global standard setting bodies for all consequential

564
00:40:32,215 --> 00:40:35,230
policy in the world. Doesn't matter what it is. Even fruit

565
00:40:36,190 --> 00:40:39,890
the OECD has a fruit standard on how banana should look.

566
00:40:40,510 --> 00:40:41,250
Of course.

567
00:40:42,109 --> 00:40:42,930
It's important.

568
00:40:43,630 --> 00:40:50,605
You don't want a banana to have less than two and a half fingers with so that the you know, to be able to peel it.

569
00:40:51,385 --> 00:40:55,405
There's global standards Central planning. Central planning. Global standards

570
00:40:56,105 --> 00:40:56,925
for everything

571
00:40:57,465 --> 00:40:58,205
of consequence.

572
00:40:58,665 --> 00:40:59,165
So

573
00:40:59,465 --> 00:41:05,320
that's the process that a country has to go through if it wants to abolish the DSA. So I look

574
00:41:05,700 --> 00:41:06,600
at those initiatives

575
00:41:06,900 --> 00:41:07,640
and really

576
00:41:08,020 --> 00:41:09,880
The US leaving the FATF,

577
00:41:11,220 --> 00:41:14,360
which I never believe it will do because it's the linchpin,

578
00:41:14,900 --> 00:41:15,560
the strongest

579
00:41:15,860 --> 00:41:17,320
pillar. It's the foundation

580
00:41:18,515 --> 00:41:28,775
of the essence, but it has to be either all the other countries leaving or a majority of them leaving or The US leave. And if The US leaves, I don't even know if that will be sufficient

581
00:41:29,235 --> 00:41:30,840
to Interesting. The world. Yep.

582
00:41:31,240 --> 00:41:33,100
Just like the the World Health Organization,

583
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,340
US leaving, not sending funding,

584
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,940
somebody else comes up. It's the Hydra. There's another head.

585
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,340
And so how do we get rid of this?

586
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:43,900
That is my next question. If I knew,

587
00:41:45,075 --> 00:42:00,650
I would lobby for it. Right. Right. Because because I think, you know, as as as we're going through this conversation, and we have wonderfully touched on many of of the questions I had made note of, you know, there are, in my mind, the perspective of can you change it from within, and I think you're making,

588
00:42:00,950 --> 00:42:01,930
a sound argument

589
00:42:02,310 --> 00:42:04,090
as to the high improbability

590
00:42:04,470 --> 00:42:10,890
of that even if The US was to flick that first domino. And, you know, American exceptionalism, guilty,

591
00:42:11,275 --> 00:42:30,599
but I might have assumed that you were going I was hoping that you were going toward if The US went, if if senator Lummis, pulled off that miracle, it's the single miracle that could bring down the Jenga, but it sounds like no. And so we're left in my mind. This is where I'd love to spend the next bit of the conversation. What else, if anything, can be done? You are inside.

592
00:42:31,460 --> 00:42:36,675
Presumably, you're working, you know, toward toward the the effect that you can have, or must we

593
00:42:37,075 --> 00:42:43,175
necessarily exit through Bitcoin or other means? So let's let's sort of move into that. What what can be done

594
00:42:43,635 --> 00:42:47,735
other than complete exit? What can be done other than complete exit?

595
00:42:48,835 --> 00:42:52,055
I look at the cypherpunks, and I look at the creation of Bitcoin

596
00:42:53,529 --> 00:42:57,549
and other technology. The Internet's a big one. It's bigger than Bitcoin.

597
00:42:58,569 --> 00:42:59,390
Mhmm. Internet

598
00:42:59,770 --> 00:43:00,270
originally,

599
00:43:00,970 --> 00:43:02,809
companies lobbied to ring

600
00:43:04,970 --> 00:43:10,665
you wanted a ContiServer, an AOL, or they they they logged in and worked really, really hard

601
00:43:13,045 --> 00:43:15,865
to make the Internet something that's very controlled.

602
00:43:16,165 --> 00:43:17,464
The original walled gardens.

603
00:43:17,765 --> 00:43:19,224
The walled gardens. Now

604
00:43:19,845 --> 00:43:24,580
in the battle for the Internet, we won. In terms of being able to access information,

605
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,260
now you have Internet service providers all over the world.

606
00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:30,500
But there's also a centralizing

607
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,620
trend with Internet service providers now.

608
00:43:34,925 --> 00:43:36,625
Taking as an example, Starlink.

609
00:43:36,925 --> 00:43:39,905
Starlink is now responsible for a sizable

610
00:43:41,484 --> 00:43:41,984
contribution

611
00:43:42,285 --> 00:43:45,425
or access point to the Internet, and that's a centralizing

612
00:43:45,805 --> 00:43:46,305
force.

613
00:43:47,220 --> 00:43:55,080
When Musk goes away and the next CEO comes about and says, well, I don't wanna give this country or that country or this person access to the Internet.

614
00:43:56,980 --> 00:44:04,115
So the Internet now is and we look at big companies. The Internet is essentially Google and Facebook and a few

615
00:44:04,494 --> 00:44:04,994
countries

616
00:44:05,775 --> 00:44:07,234
it's not countries, organizations,

617
00:44:07,615 --> 00:44:08,835
companies. And

618
00:44:09,775 --> 00:44:11,474
the Internet is centralizing

619
00:44:11,775 --> 00:44:13,234
little by little. So

620
00:44:14,340 --> 00:44:16,280
the Internet is a good example

621
00:44:16,580 --> 00:44:18,520
of what we could do financially.

622
00:44:19,300 --> 00:44:20,520
We created Bitcoin

623
00:44:20,980 --> 00:44:23,160
as a protocol. We're able to transact.

624
00:44:24,100 --> 00:44:24,920
But now

625
00:44:25,620 --> 00:44:27,480
we're seeing the Bitcoin

626
00:44:28,020 --> 00:44:28,520
sector

627
00:44:29,895 --> 00:44:31,995
being integrated within traditional finance,

628
00:44:32,455 --> 00:44:34,235
and that's being done through legislation

629
00:44:34,615 --> 00:44:46,860
that many people in the Bitcoin economy are are lauding. They're very, very happy that Absolutely. No question. Their their their JPMorgan bank in custody Bitcoin is amazing, and they're clapping their hands.

630
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:48,140
That,

631
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:49,980
to me, is worrisome

632
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:51,580
because it's the same

633
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:53,660
effect as Google

634
00:44:54,200 --> 00:45:04,285
having more centralized power within the and at one point, I'm not saying right away, but at one point, through legislation, through lobbying, through criminalizing

635
00:45:04,665 --> 00:45:05,485
certain activities,

636
00:45:06,665 --> 00:45:08,365
having self custody Bitcoin

637
00:45:08,745 --> 00:45:14,445
may be seen as something that could lead to money laundering and therefore should

638
00:45:14,980 --> 00:45:22,280
be controlled. Had we had a different outcome in our last presidential election, undoubtedly, we would be there or close to it, and we we may still.

639
00:45:23,140 --> 00:45:32,365
I've the last five years, I've seen unhosted wallets as a term coming up more and more Absolutely. Within the FETF discussion.

640
00:45:33,225 --> 00:45:37,245
Unhosted wallets. And so the FETF functions in a very odd way.

641
00:45:37,545 --> 00:45:40,605
They can't dictate directly. They can't say, well,

642
00:45:41,490 --> 00:45:43,670
this is what you should do. They can't say that.

643
00:45:44,370 --> 00:45:51,990
What they'll do is they'll send questionnaires. They'll send questionnaires, and this is one that I've seen, for example. It sent a questionnaire.

644
00:45:53,005 --> 00:45:56,785
The questionnaire asks about the risks that we've assessed within our jurisdiction

645
00:45:57,645 --> 00:45:59,505
related to cryptocurrencies,

646
00:45:59,965 --> 00:46:04,224
virtual asset services, which is the term they use. And they'll ask a question. They'll say,

647
00:46:05,325 --> 00:46:06,465
we've assessed

648
00:46:07,830 --> 00:46:12,330
the ability to hold cryptocurrencies and unhosted wallets as high risk. How

649
00:46:12,630 --> 00:46:13,610
is your jurisdiction

650
00:46:14,070 --> 00:46:14,570
mitigating?

651
00:46:15,670 --> 00:46:16,890
Presumption of guilt.

652
00:46:18,710 --> 00:46:20,410
That that was a verbatim

653
00:46:20,815 --> 00:46:24,675
question that I saw. And now my jurisdiction was put in a situation

654
00:46:25,455 --> 00:46:29,155
where they had not only to assume that there was a high level of risk

655
00:46:29,855 --> 00:46:31,155
and acknowledge it,

656
00:46:31,455 --> 00:46:32,115
but also

657
00:46:32,575 --> 00:46:33,955
think about how

658
00:46:34,599 --> 00:46:36,300
those risks were gonna be mitigated.

659
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:38,780
And that's how the FATF works.

660
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:53,265
Right. So they seeded they seeded the idea of the unhosted wallet, which is this ridiculous misnomer to begin with, and they follow it up with, well, naturally, we know that this is unsavory, and so how are you going to solve for this problem that we just created?

661
00:46:54,125 --> 00:47:00,785
So I'm gonna answer your question, how we can best effect change, either from within or by accident.

662
00:47:01,690 --> 00:47:05,870
And I'm going back to really the two fundamental principles that are needed

663
00:47:06,890 --> 00:47:07,870
for a government

664
00:47:08,730 --> 00:47:12,830
that is I'm not gonna say trustworthy because I never think you should trust a government.

665
00:47:13,625 --> 00:47:15,885
But that would make an a government accountable,

666
00:47:16,665 --> 00:47:17,805
increasing the transparency

667
00:47:18,585 --> 00:47:22,525
of what happens within that government. So revising the freedom of information

668
00:47:22,905 --> 00:47:26,265
laws, fixing the incentives, and for the population to be

669
00:47:28,020 --> 00:47:31,800
and that is the only way from within, quote, unquote,

670
00:47:32,660 --> 00:47:37,240
that government will improve and where we will be able to regain

671
00:47:38,180 --> 00:47:39,080
the freedoms

672
00:47:39,460 --> 00:47:50,964
that we value, if we value them as a society. Because is an excellent it's very fair to point that conditional out if we value them. And so those are the things that I would do from within.

673
00:47:51,425 --> 00:47:52,724
But I look at the cipherpunk,

674
00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:56,160
And if Cypherpunks created Bitcoin

675
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:57,940
They won't. Real disruptors.

676
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:03,460
They didn't disrupt the financial the TradFi, the traditional finance from within.

677
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,980
They disrupted it by creating something.

678
00:48:07,445 --> 00:48:11,465
And I think that is a key to effecting change

679
00:48:12,005 --> 00:48:12,985
in our society.

680
00:48:13,445 --> 00:48:15,385
It's not to try and work from within.

681
00:48:15,925 --> 00:48:17,785
Working from within may achieve

682
00:48:18,085 --> 00:48:20,505
some ends or goals or objectives.

683
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:23,420
We will ultimately

684
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,140
create real change by creating

685
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:26,940
something

686
00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:28,619
better that

687
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:29,580
completely

688
00:48:30,599 --> 00:48:32,140
negates the old system.

689
00:48:32,599 --> 00:48:34,540
And this is something that is possible

690
00:48:35,655 --> 00:48:36,555
for a government.

691
00:48:37,175 --> 00:48:41,835
I wrote a fairly large paper about a decentralized regulatory framework.

692
00:48:42,295 --> 00:48:46,075
Yes. I'll be sure to link to that. It's based on game theory.

693
00:48:46,695 --> 00:48:49,435
It's based on leveraging the self interest

694
00:48:50,310 --> 00:48:51,130
of the regulated

695
00:48:51,590 --> 00:48:53,770
entity in order to create

696
00:48:54,070 --> 00:48:54,570
incentive

697
00:48:54,870 --> 00:48:56,730
to remain within certain regulatory

698
00:48:57,510 --> 00:48:58,010
requirements.

699
00:48:58,310 --> 00:49:00,890
That's also possible for government.

700
00:49:01,590 --> 00:49:06,545
We don't need to have a top down stick gun to your face boot

701
00:49:06,924 --> 00:49:07,984
on the boot on the head,

702
00:49:08,605 --> 00:49:11,484
approach to regulation and supervision, and governance in

703
00:49:13,565 --> 00:49:15,585
we are at a point where

704
00:49:16,684 --> 00:49:19,184
we have the technology. We have the ability

705
00:49:20,450 --> 00:49:23,269
to create tools, any new governance system

706
00:49:23,809 --> 00:49:24,630
will create

707
00:49:25,809 --> 00:49:27,750
a government that is completely transparent.

708
00:49:28,930 --> 00:49:31,349
If you look at two hundred and forty years ago

709
00:49:31,730 --> 00:49:33,510
when the US revolution happened,

710
00:49:34,695 --> 00:49:35,355
The constitution

711
00:49:35,735 --> 00:49:36,555
created this

712
00:49:37,255 --> 00:49:39,835
amazing framework that worked at the time.

713
00:49:41,335 --> 00:49:42,635
It guided a population

714
00:49:43,335 --> 00:49:44,875
that had similar values,

715
00:49:45,255 --> 00:49:47,915
similar desires, and it created a foundation

716
00:49:48,869 --> 00:49:49,609
that enshrined

717
00:49:50,390 --> 00:49:52,009
those values and those desires.

718
00:49:52,869 --> 00:49:53,609
And because

719
00:49:54,150 --> 00:49:55,289
you didn't have telephones,

720
00:49:55,670 --> 00:49:57,529
you had to communicate through couriers.

721
00:49:58,789 --> 00:49:59,930
It was very localized.

722
00:50:00,965 --> 00:50:08,985
It didn't make sense to have everything done in Washington because it would take weeks or months to get there. And as the technology for communication

723
00:50:09,445 --> 00:50:09,945
improved,

724
00:50:10,325 --> 00:50:11,625
so too did centralizing

725
00:50:12,485 --> 00:50:18,360
government functions. It doesn't make sense to have five people in every state doing a function where you can have 10

726
00:50:19,540 --> 00:50:34,185
in Washington doing the work of hundreds. And so Although although in practice, they get both. Now they get both. They get to have the employees at the state level in the fed, but I take your point, but I take your point. Cynicism. You know, you're you're welcome, too. Yeah. It is. And so when by this change in communication,

727
00:50:34,885 --> 00:50:35,945
we've had a centralizing

728
00:50:36,245 --> 00:50:38,905
force, and we've also had a polarizing

729
00:50:39,205 --> 00:50:39,865
of society.

730
00:50:40,805 --> 00:50:48,310
I don't even know today if The US citizenry and I'm talking about The US because it's a I assume people people will be watching this or or from there.

731
00:50:48,930 --> 00:50:52,950
I don't even know that The US society has a common ground

732
00:50:53,890 --> 00:50:54,950
set of foundational

733
00:50:56,370 --> 00:50:59,590
beliefs and values that can unite the entire country.

734
00:50:59,970 --> 00:51:03,605
When it comes to immigration question right now. If you look at immigration,

735
00:51:04,305 --> 00:51:05,045
if you

736
00:51:05,345 --> 00:51:05,845
increase

737
00:51:06,145 --> 00:51:06,645
immigration,

738
00:51:07,265 --> 00:51:11,765
you satisfy 50% and anger the other 50. If you restrict immigration,

739
00:51:12,385 --> 00:51:13,205
vice versa.

740
00:51:13,985 --> 00:51:17,220
If you allow guns, you satisfy 50%.

741
00:51:17,780 --> 00:51:21,560
If you allow drugs, marijuana. You you and so Decriminalize.

742
00:51:22,660 --> 00:51:23,460
And you can't have

743
00:51:24,740 --> 00:51:25,640
I mean, libertarians

744
00:51:26,020 --> 00:51:28,119
are all about central localizing

745
00:51:28,580 --> 00:51:33,755
governance. However, think about it. If you have immigration policies or gun policies

746
00:51:34,055 --> 00:51:38,235
where one state allows guns and another state completely bans them,

747
00:51:39,175 --> 00:51:40,795
you need suddenly to have

748
00:51:42,135 --> 00:51:50,090
a a frontier, a barrier between them, and you need to search all the vehicles going back and forth to make sure the guns are not going from one to the other.

749
00:51:50,630 --> 00:51:51,369
Is that

750
00:51:51,830 --> 00:51:53,369
so you can't really localize.

751
00:51:54,550 --> 00:51:57,130
And it used to be something that the entire

752
00:51:57,590 --> 00:52:04,565
population, I assume, or a large part of it, agreed with. Citizens have the right to bear arms. Mhmm. And it worked.

753
00:52:05,345 --> 00:52:05,845
However,

754
00:52:06,305 --> 00:52:08,965
society's norms and values have changed,

755
00:52:09,265 --> 00:52:10,565
and there's a polarization

756
00:52:12,145 --> 00:52:12,645
of

757
00:52:13,510 --> 00:52:19,370
values and and opinions. And so I don't even know now if there's a common ground sufficient common ground

758
00:52:20,550 --> 00:52:21,290
to reestablish

759
00:52:21,750 --> 00:52:23,610
some kind of federal government without

760
00:52:23,990 --> 00:52:24,490
alienating

761
00:52:24,790 --> 00:52:26,090
50% of the population.

762
00:52:27,025 --> 00:52:34,085
Yes. No. It's a great point. There is a there is a political cartoon, I believe, from The New Yorker that I often post, and it was

763
00:52:35,025 --> 00:52:36,405
it was printed just

764
00:52:37,185 --> 00:52:38,645
just after 09/11.

765
00:52:39,105 --> 00:52:41,585
Janek is the fellow's last name, and it it,

766
00:52:43,340 --> 00:52:50,800
uncle Sam is at a table, and the person behind the table is getting ready to wrap a gift, presumably. And behind him

767
00:52:51,260 --> 00:52:51,760
is

768
00:52:52,780 --> 00:52:56,080
stop terrorism and protect the children. And the gift in question,

769
00:52:56,424 --> 00:53:10,525
from the perspective of uncle Sam is a corporate control of free speech or Internet speech. And so the point being, how would you like this wrapped? And so to your point, I think that is where we are largely in The US is everything is a poll. One of my prior guests, my first guest,

770
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:13,940
John Raab, writes a lot about tribes

771
00:53:14,240 --> 00:53:31,155
and swarms as it as he calls them, political swarms, the red swarm, the blue swarm. And so it is an excellent point that to arrive at consensus will be very difficult here, but let's take it here. Where, if anywhere, be it looking to your, your paper and your proposed approach, or otherwise, have you seen

772
00:53:32,175 --> 00:53:33,875
bright lights? Are there jurisdictions

773
00:53:34,335 --> 00:53:35,315
where you're seeing

774
00:53:35,855 --> 00:53:38,435
them move toward the kinds of

775
00:53:39,130 --> 00:53:39,630
transparency,

776
00:53:40,090 --> 00:53:41,630
the kinds of accountability

777
00:53:42,090 --> 00:53:48,510
that you see as being a viable option, again, other than just individuals exiting by way of Bitcoin or otherwise?

778
00:53:49,850 --> 00:53:55,555
Well, the financial action task force global standards have to be implemented. I think it's a 127

779
00:53:55,555 --> 00:53:56,455
different jurisdictions.

780
00:53:58,035 --> 00:54:01,175
And so I may just point to one of the jurisdictions

781
00:54:01,475 --> 00:54:02,215
that isn't

782
00:54:02,675 --> 00:54:04,855
implementing those standards, but they're

783
00:54:05,490 --> 00:54:07,270
not places that you wanna live.

784
00:54:07,650 --> 00:54:09,030
North Korea and whatnot.

785
00:54:10,530 --> 00:54:14,390
I wouldn't take that trade. On a on an anti money laundering front,

786
00:54:14,690 --> 00:54:15,430
all jurisdictions

787
00:54:15,730 --> 00:54:16,390
are complying.

788
00:54:16,770 --> 00:54:22,905
You look at El Salvador. I was in a a meeting with other financial action task force. It's actually part

789
00:54:23,285 --> 00:54:28,265
of a different portion. So I was sitting on that particular meeting. It's called The Caribbean.

790
00:54:29,765 --> 00:54:30,585
They were actually

791
00:54:30,885 --> 00:54:31,385
lauding

792
00:54:31,765 --> 00:54:38,720
El Salvador for their efforts to prevent anti money laundering and financing of terrorism and increasing transparency,

793
00:54:39,180 --> 00:54:40,560
which basically means

794
00:54:41,020 --> 00:54:43,520
gathering more information and holding it,

795
00:54:43,820 --> 00:54:44,480
the government.

796
00:54:45,420 --> 00:54:46,960
So El Salvador is complying.

797
00:54:47,335 --> 00:54:48,395
It's just their digital,

798
00:54:49,015 --> 00:54:56,235
digital asset committee, I believe it is. I've done a bit of work with a couple of entities there, is complying harder to to put it one way.

799
00:54:56,615 --> 00:55:02,395
There was one shining light that I really loved, and few people know about it, and that's Taiwan.

800
00:55:03,500 --> 00:55:05,760
If you look at the Taiwanese

801
00:55:06,380 --> 00:55:08,319
minister of, I think it's innovation,

802
00:55:10,220 --> 00:55:12,720
it's it's an ex hacker

803
00:55:13,500 --> 00:55:14,560
that got elected.

804
00:55:16,005 --> 00:55:21,865
And she really had some amazing ideas to make government more transparent. It was beautiful.

805
00:55:23,444 --> 00:55:24,825
I think there was opposition.

806
00:55:25,125 --> 00:55:27,545
However, that opposition would have been moot

807
00:55:28,170 --> 00:55:31,390
if the population had embraced and participated.

808
00:55:32,010 --> 00:55:38,349
Mhmm. And I don't think that her programs got the participation she was hoping for, and so the programs

809
00:55:38,650 --> 00:55:41,390
got let down. You should really, really know.

810
00:55:42,515 --> 00:55:43,655
Look. Chang Tam,

811
00:55:43,955 --> 00:55:46,535
Theresa Tam. I I I forget the name.

812
00:55:47,075 --> 00:55:48,375
Yeah. Get them in the show notes.

813
00:55:48,675 --> 00:55:56,295
Now if you if you look at what her IDs were, she had the idea of using an online polling platform called Polis,

814
00:55:56,720 --> 00:55:59,619
p o l I s, to put every single consequential

815
00:55:59,920 --> 00:56:00,420
decision

816
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:02,420
and to create a communal

817
00:56:02,720 --> 00:56:04,019
type of discussion

818
00:56:04,319 --> 00:56:05,140
for policymaking.

819
00:56:05,599 --> 00:56:08,420
Beautiful. Wonderful. I don't think it got the traction

820
00:56:08,720 --> 00:56:09,539
that it needed

821
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:11,700
to move forward. And that's

822
00:56:12,375 --> 00:56:13,595
the biggest disappointment

823
00:56:14,215 --> 00:56:15,675
working from within the government.

824
00:56:15,975 --> 00:56:18,075
That's what I've seen is that the population

825
00:56:18,855 --> 00:56:20,075
don't get involved.

826
00:56:21,495 --> 00:56:29,660
The government might wanna do something, and they don't know in the case of Taiwan. I'll admit I don't live there. This is one place I'll admit to not living. However,

827
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:33,420
I don't know what the reasons were, but the people didn't really participate.

828
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:35,980
And that's a shame because

829
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:39,180
countries that are doing the right steps

830
00:56:39,825 --> 00:56:40,325
should

831
00:56:40,625 --> 00:56:43,285
be encouraged, lauded, and applauded.

832
00:56:43,825 --> 00:56:48,085
And I see so very few. I certainly don't see any in Europe.

833
00:56:49,105 --> 00:56:52,964
I I can't say that I see any in Central America or North America.

834
00:56:53,265 --> 00:57:03,049
And, you know, I'm not that familiar with African countries, but I assume they want global capital investment money. And so they're complying harder than anyone else.

835
00:57:04,069 --> 00:57:08,505
And so don't know that there are any lights out there, but I do

836
00:57:08,805 --> 00:57:11,385
know that by being involved in government,

837
00:57:12,484 --> 00:57:14,905
it's the only way to light that torch.

838
00:57:17,285 --> 00:57:19,705
People watching this, don't get up.

839
00:57:20,300 --> 00:57:24,640
Send freedom of information requests, push back, complain, criticize,

840
00:57:25,100 --> 00:57:26,160
question, doubt

841
00:57:27,020 --> 00:57:29,040
their government, their elected representative

842
00:57:29,900 --> 00:57:33,359
in an active fashion. If they can get away

843
00:57:34,224 --> 00:57:36,244
with catering to lobbyists,

844
00:57:37,105 --> 00:57:40,484
that torch isn't gonna be lit. And, really, the key

845
00:57:41,744 --> 00:57:42,565
to maintaining

846
00:57:44,065 --> 00:57:45,925
our freedoms is that participation.

847
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:50,059
I'm seeing very, very little of it.

848
00:57:51,640 --> 00:58:03,525
Well, I'm assuming you're you're, you know, you're wearing that hat for a reason. So I I take your point, which is clearly there is no silver bullet. There is no magic pill. What I take away is that Fadif is the playground

849
00:58:03,985 --> 00:58:10,165
bully who leads others to give the beat down anytime anyone gets out of out of line, and so

850
00:58:11,105 --> 00:58:13,925
the ability to escape that is is

851
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:15,380
minimal.

852
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:17,940
But I think if I understand you correctly,

853
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:21,460
that it is creating, forcing more transparency

854
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:25,700
through freedoms of information act and other means. It is citizenry

855
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:26,500
participating

856
00:58:27,039 --> 00:58:29,299
and voicing and and adding pressure.

857
00:58:30,295 --> 00:58:33,675
Advising the freedom of information loss is that.

858
00:58:34,375 --> 00:58:37,755
Odell or if anybody wants to really

859
00:58:38,615 --> 00:58:40,555
make a change within government

860
00:58:40,935 --> 00:58:46,110
to really open things up for more transparency because transparency kills

861
00:58:46,970 --> 00:58:47,950
criminal activity.

862
00:58:48,730 --> 00:58:50,670
Cockroaches love to hide from the light.

863
00:58:51,850 --> 00:58:54,350
So with more transparency, you fix everything.

864
00:58:55,210 --> 00:58:56,910
You really fix everything.

865
00:58:57,315 --> 00:59:00,214
And those freedom of information laws are antiquated,

866
00:59:00,515 --> 00:59:07,815
and they haven't been looked at. And very few people, first of all, send freedom of infra of information requests. It's free. You can.

867
00:59:08,115 --> 00:59:09,895
If you wanna see where your

868
00:59:10,290 --> 00:59:15,030
congressman was last month, you can get their calendar. Every single email I write

869
00:59:16,050 --> 00:59:31,355
when I'm at work is a flyable. There's a huge amount of information that's obtainable by citizenry, but it requires time. You have to read it all. It's it's it's just that involvement that's necessary. But now with AI, we can have scanning of a whole database.

870
00:59:32,055 --> 00:59:34,315
So, really, there are opportunities,

871
00:59:34,775 --> 00:59:35,915
but that legislative

872
00:59:36,215 --> 00:59:37,620
change, I really think

873
00:59:38,100 --> 00:59:41,480
the freedom of information request legislation around the world

874
00:59:41,940 --> 00:59:42,920
has to be updated.

875
00:59:43,300 --> 00:59:44,760
The fact they're there is great,

876
00:59:45,620 --> 00:59:58,445
but the government right now knows so much more about us, and we know so little about it. It's a great point. I'm reminded I'm not on Twitter x anymore, but I I see, you know, I get a link now and then, and there's an individual who goes by data republican,

877
00:59:59,065 --> 01:00:03,165
lowercase r, as she says, I believe, who is a data scientist and

878
01:00:03,890 --> 01:00:14,790
is, I think, using open source intelligent largely, open source intelligence. I don't know that she's conducting FOIA's, but I believe in my mind is a great example to your point of applying modern tooling

879
01:00:15,330 --> 01:00:26,805
to being able to rebalance what would otherwise be overwhelming in in the case of the data you would receive from a FOIA. And I will, I'll be sure. I know you're watching this, Odell. So here here's a shout out to him. So,

880
01:00:27,904 --> 01:00:31,525
you know, might have thought that you were moving toward

881
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:33,980
a place where

882
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:36,940
you're doing what you can, but your expectations

883
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:53,645
are low. I don't now believe that's the case. I'll get you to correct me, you know. So you're not gonna you're not gonna be in Madeira at Sovereign Engineering, walking away from you from your government job in the near future, or or are you? So so let's let's wrap up on these two points. What is your

884
01:00:54,185 --> 01:00:57,805
best case expectation of your work in your current role?

885
01:00:58,265 --> 01:01:00,125
And then for those of us concerned,

886
01:01:01,250 --> 01:01:03,670
I hope more and more about maintaining our privacy,

887
01:01:04,530 --> 01:01:09,270
our autonomy, what are some of the most effective steps that we can take

888
01:01:10,450 --> 01:01:10,950
to

889
01:01:11,410 --> 01:01:12,950
protect ourselves, to

890
01:01:14,285 --> 01:01:20,225
have a bit more agency in light of everything we've discussed so far. So what is a great outcome for you,

891
01:01:20,605 --> 01:01:27,425
and what is a reasonable expectation and steps we can take as individuals in your view? I have to have a problem. If you take a candle

892
01:01:27,740 --> 01:01:29,760
and you bring it outside at daytime,

893
01:01:30,140 --> 01:01:32,319
that candle will have a very

894
01:01:33,099 --> 01:01:36,640
small amount of light. You won't you won't notice the candle.

895
01:01:37,500 --> 01:01:41,200
If you take the candle in a dark room, that candle can shine.

896
01:01:42,375 --> 01:01:42,875
That's

897
01:01:44,055 --> 01:01:45,595
really my moral justification

898
01:01:45,975 --> 01:01:47,355
for the work that I'm doing.

899
01:01:47,895 --> 01:01:49,275
I've done presentations

900
01:01:49,655 --> 01:01:50,155
on

901
01:01:50,855 --> 01:01:55,035
for ministries and departments within my government, and I see

902
01:01:55,859 --> 01:02:03,480
look looks from people who aren't willing to speak out but think the same way I do. When I make a reference to something,

903
01:02:04,019 --> 01:02:05,960
when I say a particular word

904
01:02:06,660 --> 01:02:07,400
that implies

905
01:02:07,700 --> 01:02:08,200
something

906
01:02:10,255 --> 01:02:11,555
on freedom, privacy.

907
01:02:12,815 --> 01:02:14,515
And I I see those looks,

908
01:02:15,215 --> 01:02:20,595
and that's those are the torches that I'm looking at lighting with my small little candle.

909
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:23,140
It's very rewarding

910
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:24,020
to hear

911
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:28,580
someone else in my department echo something that I've said multiple, multiple things.

912
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:30,420
So that's that's for me.

913
01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:33,940
That's the work I'm trying to do. As far as you

914
01:02:34,755 --> 01:02:36,375
or anybody who's dissatisfied

915
01:02:36,914 --> 01:02:39,095
with their government, the most

916
01:02:40,035 --> 01:02:41,815
the easiest thing you can do,

917
01:02:42,674 --> 01:02:43,575
say your

918
01:02:44,275 --> 01:02:45,335
elected representative

919
01:02:45,714 --> 01:02:51,310
did something, purchased something, or took a certain action that you disagree with, send an

920
01:02:52,570 --> 01:02:55,630
FYI requesting all of the emails that pertain

921
01:02:56,090 --> 01:03:01,070
to that particular purchase or action. Say it's buying spending money for a new

922
01:03:01,370 --> 01:03:02,990
building or a new program

923
01:03:03,290 --> 01:03:04,110
or a vote

924
01:03:04,835 --> 01:03:06,855
that your elected representative took

925
01:03:07,394 --> 01:03:08,694
that you disagree with,

926
01:03:09,474 --> 01:03:12,694
say, well, I want all of your emails over the last year

927
01:03:13,154 --> 01:03:19,335
with this keyword. It's gonna scare the bejesus out of your civil servants and not just from your elected representative.

928
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:22,060
Ask it for all

929
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:25,180
civil servants within this particular department.

930
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:27,580
Within all All the government.

931
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:33,740
It would scare the bejesus out of me if somebody f lied me, and I've seen this happen.

932
01:03:34,185 --> 01:03:34,685
By

933
01:03:35,705 --> 01:03:38,365
knowing. And it's it's something that civil servants forget

934
01:03:38,665 --> 01:03:40,925
when they send an email, when they get an email.

935
01:03:41,625 --> 01:03:43,245
That's public information.

936
01:03:43,545 --> 01:03:47,085
It's just not disclosed, and so few people ask for it.

937
01:03:48,180 --> 01:03:54,040
They don't know all the emails that they've written over the last year, what they've said, what they haven't said.

938
01:03:54,980 --> 01:03:59,000
So when you send that FOI, you might not get what you're looking for.

939
01:03:59,940 --> 01:04:02,280
But just the fact that you sent it,

940
01:04:03,075 --> 01:04:05,415
the the department everybody in the department

941
01:04:05,955 --> 01:04:06,935
and your representative

942
01:04:07,555 --> 01:04:09,255
will know you sent it.

943
01:04:09,795 --> 01:04:12,935
And even if they find a way not to send the information to you,

944
01:04:13,315 --> 01:04:14,375
you scared them.

945
01:04:14,850 --> 01:04:19,430
Try them in a light. Use and believe me, it works. Next time

946
01:04:19,970 --> 01:04:21,510
somebody needs to take an action,

947
01:04:21,970 --> 01:04:24,150
write it at that email, sign that contract,

948
01:04:24,930 --> 01:04:29,350
go to a particular meeting, conference, they'll think twice about it because they know.

949
01:04:30,265 --> 01:04:34,125
They can come back and bite them. Send freedom of information

950
01:04:34,585 --> 01:04:35,085
requests.

951
01:04:35,465 --> 01:04:38,285
It's free. It's easy. It's a form. It's an email.

952
01:04:39,145 --> 01:04:45,240
Excellent. And I think it is you know, I'm as guilty as anyone of perhaps assuming that the guidance would be

953
01:04:45,619 --> 01:04:46,599
use this VPN,

954
01:04:47,380 --> 01:04:51,720
transact in Bitcoin more. But I think it's an excellent takeaway, which is it is unavoidable

955
01:04:52,180 --> 01:05:02,575
that in in order to push back and enact change that, to your point, we have to remind them, you know, of of ways in which they can be held accountable. So I think that's excellent,

956
01:05:02,955 --> 01:05:07,055
and I am just as guilty and will take your advice to heart.

957
01:05:07,835 --> 01:05:15,010
Just tell me what I'm doing. Okay? Wouldn't know where to send it, so that's great. Open state, thank you. I am grateful for your time, grateful for your contributions.

958
01:05:15,390 --> 01:05:20,690
I appreciate that what you're doing is not without risk, personal and otherwise, so thank you for that.

959
01:05:22,030 --> 01:05:22,530
And

960
01:05:23,005 --> 01:05:35,025
I will be sure that we get links to your Nastro profile, to the paper you referenced. Anything else that you'd like to point people to that would be useful to learn more about your work or the tools or the techniques that you've talked about?

961
01:05:35,990 --> 01:05:37,930
Send you the link to the Taiwanese

962
01:05:38,390 --> 01:05:46,890
minister that I referred to. Terrific. People if if people are interested in in seeing what positive changes of change could look like, she's a good example.

963
01:05:47,349 --> 01:05:53,210
Yeah. A firefly is is sometimes all we need. Fantastic. Thanks again, OpenState. All the best. Talk to you soon.

964
01:05:53,829 --> 01:05:54,329
Cheers.

965
01:05:54,630 --> 01:05:55,130
Cheers.