1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,160 I think what's different about podcasting is that it's been opened from day one. 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:14,140 And even if podcasters don't really understand how that works on a technical level, what most 3 00:00:14,140 --> 00:00:20,480 podcasters tend to understand is that people can listen on any app that they choose to 4 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:21,360 listen on. 5 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:25,980 And the phrase wherever you get your podcast is commonly used. 6 00:00:25,980 --> 00:00:31,140 And I think that's kind of like a baseline that will never disappear. 7 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:40,740 You know, differentiation in the listener experience and allows developers to be more flexible because you've got the RSS feed, which has all of the content. 8 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:48,580 Now with podcast index and podcasting 2.0, you have an open index to find any RSS feeds. 9 00:00:48,820 --> 00:00:54,200 And that really means that for developers of podcast listening experiences, you can build whatever you want. 10 00:00:54,200 --> 00:01:01,460 Hey, one quick thing before we get into it. Trust Revolution runs on value for value. No ads, 11 00:01:01,700 --> 00:01:07,860 no sponsors. Fountain is how it works for me and for the show. Pay per episode or subscribe, 12 00:01:08,580 --> 00:01:14,060 lightning or card. You get something from the show, you can send something back. No guilt, 13 00:01:14,060 --> 00:01:21,140 no gimmicks. Go to trustrevolution.co. That's trustrevolution.co. Okay, let's get into it. 14 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,920 Oscar Mary, good to see you. Welcome. 15 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,020 Hey, Sean. Thanks so much for having me on. Really appreciate it. 16 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:43,200 Absolutely. My pleasure. I know as we were talking before we started, that based on being a customer of Fountain, a very happy customer, no plug, no remuneration, just a happy customer. 17 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:48,100 and having been on your last webinar that, pardon me, you got a lot going on, 18 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:53,960 a lot of new feature shipping, and a lot of exciting things that I do want to get into today. 19 00:01:54,660 --> 00:02:00,640 And where I'd like to start, Oscar, is part at least of your origin story. 20 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:07,680 And so as I understand it, while at Accenture, or rather perhaps post, we'll get into that. 21 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:13,700 So in essence, you made $30,000 in six months from Amazon's Alexa platform. 22 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,860 Your Find My iPhone skill was number one in productivity. 23 00:02:17,380 --> 00:02:22,920 You became an Alexa champion, sort of one of their advocates, ran the London meetup, taught courses. 24 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:27,980 So all that to say you were winning inside Big Tech System. 25 00:02:28,340 --> 00:02:29,640 What changed for you? 26 00:02:30,020 --> 00:02:31,180 Yeah, that's a great question. 27 00:02:31,180 --> 00:02:40,780 And there's a lot that I can share from that journey working with voice technology and Amazon Alexa, Google Assistant. 28 00:02:41,980 --> 00:02:56,580 I would say that the number one thing that changed for me is that the actual technology of voice assistants at that time, we're talking 2017, 2018. 29 00:02:56,580 --> 00:03:10,740 It didn't really live up to the expectations that we had as a developer community and also for, you know, end users, you know, interacting with Alexa in their homes. 30 00:03:11,100 --> 00:03:14,180 The technology just wasn't really up to scratch. 31 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:21,560 And that kind of limited the scope of the kinds of things that we could build. 32 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:42,780 So when I first started working with specifically the Amazon Alexa technology, the assistant, because that's how I got into it, was very early to get access to the developer kit and release one of the first Alexa skills, which was kind of like, you know, the mini apps that you could build on top of the platform. 33 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:50,240 You know, we had we were very excited about the type of interactions that you could build. 34 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:56,900 um i'm still a big believer in voice as an interface to technology primarily because you 35 00:03:56,900 --> 00:04:03,100 it means you can access technology and um the audio medium without having to pull your phone 36 00:04:03,100 --> 00:04:08,720 out of your pocket and without having to look at a screen and maybe be distracted by things like 37 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:15,600 notifications or ads uh so i'm still a big believer in it it's just that big the the level 38 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:25,200 of accuracy you need when building a voice-based interaction is so so high it's much higher than 39 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:32,580 you think and at the time even though the accuracy was probably 95 96 it just wasn't enough and 40 00:04:32,580 --> 00:04:37,900 we found that for complex voice interactions it just kind of fell down and that's why you know 41 00:04:37,900 --> 00:04:43,160 you mentioned some of the the apps that we built that's why the really really simple ones that were 42 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:48,860 almost like one-shot invocations and one-shot responses those were the ones that were incredibly 43 00:04:48,860 --> 00:04:56,080 popular and and did really well but that limited the scope of uh what we can build and so decided 44 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:02,100 to kind of yeah move on from from that part of my I guess tech journey but yeah have always worked 45 00:05:02,100 --> 00:05:09,080 in tech have always been uh very um excited about what technology can do and particularly the audio 46 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:14,380 medium you know I'd say that is the consistent theme between what I was working on before and 47 00:05:14,380 --> 00:05:22,940 now working in the podcast industry personally I just believe that audio as a medium is incredibly 48 00:05:22,940 --> 00:05:29,300 powerful but it's also non-invasive you can you know listen as you're you know doing something 49 00:05:29,300 --> 00:05:34,800 else or walking out in nature or you know falling asleep even with audiobooks and I just love that 50 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:42,120 aspect to the audio medium when you compare it to every other technology medium that we interact 51 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:48,580 with all day, which is so invasive and so crowded and so dominating in terms of your attention. 52 00:05:48,900 --> 00:05:53,560 That's where I feel audio has a kind of special, special place. 53 00:05:54,980 --> 00:06:01,120 And I remember distinctly, and this is not to, you know, to blow smoke at you, but I remember 54 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:06,520 testing your skill. I didn't know the name Oscar Mary at the time, but I remember sitting at home, 55 00:06:06,660 --> 00:06:11,340 whatever it was, 2016, 2015, at the time that you pushed the find my iPhone skill to be more 56 00:06:11,340 --> 00:06:18,760 specific. And the idea of laying back on the sofa or wherever I was and saying, hey, Alexa, find my 57 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:26,260 iPhone. And having my phone, you know, start to start to beep felt like magic. You know, when you 58 00:06:26,260 --> 00:06:32,520 fast forward 10 years and, you know, we now ask Kroc to, you know, create one-shot videos that are 59 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:37,580 indistinguishable from reality, things pale in comparison. But at the time, it was absolutely 60 00:06:37,580 --> 00:06:44,660 magical. So I appreciate how that would capture one's imagination. Was it, you mentioned, Oscar, 61 00:06:44,660 --> 00:06:53,020 the, at the time, failure to live up or the inability for it to live up to its expectation, 62 00:06:53,020 --> 00:06:56,460 which is so often the case, of course, in an emerging technology. 63 00:06:57,060 --> 00:07:07,320 Was there an aspect at that time, did you sort of sense where things were going in terms of major players controlling that sphere? 64 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:15,900 So if we sort of walk back to Accenture 2015, two Echo devices show up in the innovation lab, you know, was it really about readiness? 65 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:23,000 Or did you also, not to put words in your mouth, did you have sort of a line of sight to where it was all going in terms of top-down control? 66 00:07:23,020 --> 00:07:45,380 Yeah, it's a great question. I would say that the primary reason from my perspective that the technology didn't live up to the promise of what it could do was the accuracy. And then there's also this aspect of browsability. You know, one of the downsides of a voice interaction is very hard to browse or scan content. 67 00:07:45,380 --> 00:07:54,120 So any type of question where you want to be presented with options or quickly scan the result, you can't really do that with audio. 68 00:07:54,300 --> 00:07:58,860 And that was another limitation, although there are ways you can get around that. 69 00:07:58,980 --> 00:08:07,940 But in terms of top down control of, you know, individual platforms, I do think that played a part as well, because it played a part for two reasons. 70 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:15,440 Number one, you know, Amazon were the gatekeepers of progress with the technology. 71 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:28,860 So unless their engineering and product teams decided to focus on a particular aspect of improving Alexa or the Alexa development kit, then we were stuck and we couldn't move it forward independent from them. 72 00:08:28,940 --> 00:08:33,400 It's a little bit like how you see, you know, iOS development today. 73 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:41,140 If you can't do something because Apple don't let you buy the iOS APIs, then you're kind of stuck as a developer. 74 00:08:41,940 --> 00:08:43,520 So that also limited us. 75 00:08:43,780 --> 00:09:00,160 And then you have, I guess, both Amazon with Alexa and Google with Google Assistant at the time were kind of copying the way things worked with mobile operating systems and app stores, whereby everything was quite locked down. 76 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:07,320 um there was no real interrupt between you know Alexa or Google Assistant so things would work 77 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:14,280 slightly differently and also there was no interrupt with um the rest of their ecosystems 78 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:20,480 for example you know Google Play on on Android and things like that so I do think that played a 79 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:29,280 part in terms of uh yeah again just limiting what was possible um with the uh with the APIs we were 80 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:34,520 using but i would say that the primary factor was the accuracy of the voice assistants at the time 81 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:43,440 another actual massive factor in um the kind of the space not reaching the potential we thought 82 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:53,020 it would was siri on ios because every year we would uh you know look to wwdc and and expect some 83 00:09:53,020 --> 00:09:59,580 kind of you know improvement with siri you know some new apis from siri for ios and that never 84 00:09:59,580 --> 00:10:05,100 happened and and you know it's 2026 it still hasn't happened and they're outsourcing to google 85 00:10:05,100 --> 00:10:12,820 yeah but we got we got liquid gas you know there's a pro right right well you know actually 86 00:10:12,820 --> 00:10:20,340 that's a really interesting seg i think to whether whether you know whether in voice 87 00:10:20,340 --> 00:10:28,960 there was even an opportunity for significant gatekeeping because of the essentially failure 88 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,780 for it to live up to the hype. There were, as you know, the two players, really, Amazon and 89 00:10:33,780 --> 00:10:42,800 Google with Apple being an also-ran. So, you know, is podcasting the same pattern with Apple 90 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:50,080 and Spotify controlling what people hear, sort of A, B, maybe more specifically, when a show 91 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:56,520 gets removed from Apple's index, perhaps as an Alexa skill got blocked, banned, deleted from 92 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:01,160 their marketplace, you know, it disappears from most apps. And so this is the gist of the question. 93 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:06,540 Given that control that I think arguably, and tell me if you disagree, that Apple and Spotify 94 00:11:06,540 --> 00:11:13,120 have over podcasting and what people essentially hear, how many creators do you think understand 95 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:19,620 that risk as perhaps a parallel to the developers we just talked about? Yeah, that's an interesting 96 00:11:19,620 --> 00:11:26,540 question. I think what's different about podcasting is that it's been opened from day one. 97 00:11:26,540 --> 00:11:35,400 And even if podcasters don't really understand how that works on a technical level, what most 98 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:42,620 podcasters tend to understand is that people can listen on any app that they choose to listen on. 99 00:11:42,620 --> 00:11:47,220 And the phrase wherever you get your podcast is commonly used. 100 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:57,600 And I think that that's kind of like a baseline that will never disappear with podcasting because it's how it's always worked. 101 00:11:57,660 --> 00:12:05,380 And there's millions of people out there that listen on apps that are not the major ones, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. 102 00:12:05,380 --> 00:12:15,220 and then I also think that encourages you know differentiation in the listener experience and 103 00:12:15,220 --> 00:12:21,920 and allows developers to be more flexible because you've got the RSS feed which has all of the 104 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:30,220 content and now with podcast index and podcasting 2.0 you have an open index to find any RSS feeds 105 00:12:30,220 --> 00:12:52,880 And that really means that for developers of podcast listening experiences, you can build whatever you want. And we see, you know, there is a very long tail of podcast listening experiences that all do all do things slightly differently. And I think that, yeah, that baseline of openness in podcasting will be very, very difficult to break, I think. 106 00:12:52,880 --> 00:13:07,620 Would you say, and I know this is one that people trot out a lot, but to my memory, it is one of the most significant in Spotify doing, what was it initially, a hundred million dollar exclusive with Joe Rogan. 107 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,980 And then I think subsequently 200, if I got the details. 108 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:13,380 So I'm just staggering numbers. 109 00:13:13,780 --> 00:13:18,300 And I don't have, maybe you do, I don't have any data to support this. 110 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:22,780 But as I recall, there was absolutely an intention to try to wall that in. 111 00:13:22,780 --> 00:13:46,800 So, A, do you know perhaps if that happened? And B, is that a threat, right? You know, if major, major, major podcasters like Arogan or whomever, if they do exclusive deals, and I presume it would be with Spotify and Spotify somehow blocks, you know, the RSS feed distribution, otherwise, like how much of a threat is that to the model itself? 112 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:55,160 yeah um it was such an interesting case study uh joe rogan going exclusive on spotify for 113 00:13:55,160 --> 00:14:01,520 however long it was i think it was about two years um what was so fascinating about this is 114 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:09,860 obviously to joe rogan there was a massive benefit in terms of the financial um you know reward for 115 00:14:09,860 --> 00:14:18,920 for going exclusive but actually um there was a huge uh downside for joe in terms of his reach 116 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:27,340 and his influence um in going exclusive with spotify if you think back to kind of peak joe 117 00:14:27,340 --> 00:14:33,180 rogan which was just before he went exclusive on spotify he was without a doubt the biggest 118 00:14:33,180 --> 00:14:39,300 podcaster in the world probably the podcaster with the most influence globally in terms of 119 00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:46,080 you know interviewing guests getting a story or a topic of conversation out to the world and 120 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:53,440 during the the year or two that he was exclusive you know i would say and there's many people that 121 00:14:53,440 --> 00:15:00,280 have also written about this and and shown data to back it up that joe actually lost a massive 122 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:05,840 amount of influence because of the fact you could only listen on spotify the reality is with 123 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:14,800 podcasting is that it is a fragmented ecosystem even the big two of Spotify and Apple podcasts 124 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:21,300 only have round about a 30 percent market share in terms of listeners so if you choose to go 125 00:15:21,300 --> 00:15:28,400 exclusive on Spotify you're essentially saying to 70 percent of your existing and potential audience 126 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:34,800 sorry you can't listen anymore and that means you can't share the episode with a friend you can't 127 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:40,800 you know, talk about the episode on social media, you can't bring up the episode, topic of 128 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:46,000 conversation with friends or family, whatever it might may be. And I think for that reason, 129 00:15:46,540 --> 00:15:52,400 Joe Rogan lost a massive amount of influence. And we've seen other podcasters like, you know, 130 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:59,280 Lex Friedman, Andrew Huberman, these types of people kind of step into the void that was 131 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,480 left by Joe Rogan going exclusive. 132 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,780 And I think that the strategy for Spotify worked 133 00:16:06,780 --> 00:16:11,760 because they acquired a lot of podcast listeners onto Spotify. 134 00:16:12,340 --> 00:16:14,100 Who doesn't want that next $100 million, right? 135 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,340 Yeah, and for Joe, obviously, he got a massive payday, 136 00:16:17,420 --> 00:16:18,360 so fair play to him. 137 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:23,400 But I think that he then reversed it. 138 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:25,380 I don't know who made the decision, 139 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:27,340 but my hunch is that he said, 140 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:28,720 no, this isn't working for me. 141 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,860 I want to go back to, you know, open RSS. 142 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:36,280 And now Joe Rogan is, again, available on any podcast app. 143 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:42,440 But I think other content creators have seen that as like the prime example of exclusivity, 144 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:48,520 how it may still work for you and there may be a big payday, but it comes with very obvious 145 00:16:48,520 --> 00:17:05,275 drawbacks in terms of a drop in influence a restriction on how viral your podcast can can go and all of these other drawbacks And I think that also you know a benefit that open podcasting has because it almost 146 00:17:05,275 --> 00:17:11,515 like a restricting function on people thinking, oh, yeah, I'm just going to go exclusive. 147 00:17:12,595 --> 00:17:12,815 Absolutely. 148 00:17:12,815 --> 00:17:21,015 And I think that is such an important point to underscore, that the fragmented, chaotic, 149 00:17:21,015 --> 00:17:27,055 some might say nature of podcasting, is a check against centralization. And even Spotify, 150 00:17:27,375 --> 00:17:32,395 the biggest player in the business in music and audio, I think one could say, could not deliver 151 00:17:32,395 --> 00:17:37,755 what Joe wanted more, even more than $100 million, we're speculating. But I think you raise an 152 00:17:37,755 --> 00:17:43,335 excellent point in that ultimately his influence declined. And if that is the measure of success, 153 00:17:43,375 --> 00:17:50,815 if reach and influence are a greater measure of success than revenue, you can't win through closed. 154 00:17:50,815 --> 00:18:03,595 And so if we then, Oscar, go from $100 million to a dear friend of mine used to say in the music business, stepping into a river of nickels and picking them up, value for value. 155 00:18:03,955 --> 00:18:08,275 So great, great in theory. 156 00:18:08,655 --> 00:18:12,315 I think the trick, of course, as we know, is that I did a previous segment on this. 157 00:18:12,435 --> 00:18:16,315 Voluntary payment models usually see 1% to 5% participation. 158 00:18:16,315 --> 00:18:35,135 And so as I said then, and I will reiterate now, I am a believer. This podcast is strictly value for value. We'll see how that plays out. But it is something I believe deeply in and want to work, but wanting it to work is not the same as it working. So let me ask you, why do you believe value for value can work? 159 00:18:35,135 --> 00:19:00,175 Yeah, I would say, yeah, I do believe it can work. I guess there's two categories of my answer and my reasons to why I think value for value can work. One is almost an emotional reason. And then the second is more of a, you know, evidence set of reasons in terms of where I see it working today, in other contexts. 160 00:19:00,175 --> 00:19:08,355 to start with on the more kind of the areas where I see it working and where I see evidence for it 161 00:19:08,355 --> 00:19:16,395 working the biggest one is Patreon so if you look at Patreon today podcasters using Patreon 162 00:19:16,395 --> 00:19:23,675 to receive voluntary payments from their audience you know generate hundreds of millions of dollars 163 00:19:23,675 --> 00:19:30,155 per year for those podcasters. And many of the podcasters make, you know, a serious living 164 00:19:30,155 --> 00:19:35,615 through Patreon. I think if you also look at the live streaming platforms like Twitch and Kick, 165 00:19:35,615 --> 00:19:43,655 you see the same thing where the revenue from listener donations is significant and, you know, 166 00:19:43,695 --> 00:19:50,355 is equivalent to the advertising and sponsorship revenue that they receive. So for me, Patreon 167 00:19:50,355 --> 00:19:57,435 and the live streaming platforms are examples where I can see essentially value for value 168 00:19:57,435 --> 00:20:07,455 working today. It's just that both of those examples are in closed context. And so what they 169 00:20:07,455 --> 00:20:15,375 lack, interestingly, very similar to the Joe Rogan example is they limit reach and discovery 170 00:20:15,375 --> 00:20:22,335 for content creators because essentially they limit your you know your top fans to 171 00:20:22,335 --> 00:20:28,995 interacting with your content in a in a closed ecosystem um and ultimately what we're trying to 172 00:20:28,995 --> 00:20:36,095 do with fountain and open podcasting open podcast payments nostra is to try and recreate the product 173 00:20:36,095 --> 00:20:41,615 experiences that exist on patreon and these live streaming platforms but do it in an open way and 174 00:20:41,615 --> 00:20:48,975 tie that back into you know social discovery through through uh nostra but then on the other 175 00:20:48,975 --> 00:20:55,075 side in terms of why i believe it can work uh more on an emotional level and like why we're actually 176 00:20:55,075 --> 00:21:01,435 doing this why i'm spending time on this why i believe in it is because sometimes you listen to 177 00:21:01,435 --> 00:21:07,515 a piece of content and it has such a profound impact on you whether that's learning something 178 00:21:07,515 --> 00:21:13,275 new you know discovering something interesting about the world that you didn't know before 179 00:21:13,275 --> 00:21:19,215 you know having a laugh because someone's saying something incredibly funny or whatever it is or 180 00:21:19,215 --> 00:21:26,555 listening to some music that you know makes the the hairs on your arm stand up that value currently 181 00:21:26,555 --> 00:21:35,035 is um there's no way to give back and i think that if the tools were there to be able to capture that 182 00:21:35,035 --> 00:21:40,035 feeling and immediately present you with a way to give back to the person that made you feel like 183 00:21:40,035 --> 00:21:46,935 that i think that is something that people uh want to do not only are capable of doing and would do 184 00:21:46,935 --> 00:21:52,135 but they actually want to do that the reason i think the percentages and you're correct in saying 185 00:21:52,135 --> 00:21:57,675 that it's like a one one to five percent of the audience that will actually support you uh in a 186 00:21:57,675 --> 00:22:04,835 voluntary capacity the reason i think that is so low is because the tools are not there uh to make 187 00:22:04,835 --> 00:22:11,415 it really really easy for your audience to support you in a way that it makes them feel good and and 188 00:22:11,415 --> 00:22:16,275 there's some things that for example the live streaming platforms do well and and the content 189 00:22:16,275 --> 00:22:21,935 creators uh within live streaming have kind of figured out some of the the language to use and 190 00:22:21,935 --> 00:22:29,575 stuff but yeah ultimately i think that uh people want to give back and also in an age where we're 191 00:22:29,575 --> 00:22:36,135 drowning in content and there's AI content and there's these algorithms on platforms like X and 192 00:22:36,135 --> 00:22:41,295 Instagram that, you know, certain content does well and you have to play the algorithm game and 193 00:22:41,295 --> 00:22:48,355 you have to, you know, create endless content. People also don't like that. And if you can, 194 00:22:48,475 --> 00:22:52,295 and I'm not saying we've achieved this with Fountain by any means, there's a long way to go. 195 00:22:52,375 --> 00:22:58,375 But I think there's this magic combination of number one, giving people the tools to be able 196 00:22:58,375 --> 00:23:05,095 to support and say thank you for amazing content number two tying that back into discovery and 197 00:23:05,095 --> 00:23:10,935 explaining to people that there's a different way there's a way that you can have content discovery 198 00:23:10,935 --> 00:23:17,015 that isn't driven by an attention algorithm and it's very hard to do that to to you know 199 00:23:17,015 --> 00:23:23,235 your average person in a succinct way but i do think that if you go out there and you talk to 200 00:23:23,235 --> 00:23:29,875 anyone they they do understand that these attention algorithms are unhealthy and and if you can 201 00:23:29,875 --> 00:23:37,475 put forward a better way of doing things um with with a similar level of product experience to 202 00:23:37,475 --> 00:23:44,475 what they're using already be that youtube spotify apple podcast twitch um i think the combination of 203 00:23:44,475 --> 00:23:51,815 those two things um can work and um but yeah ultimately that there's a lot still to do to 204 00:23:51,815 --> 00:23:58,315 to make this work in the way we want to um you know we've got a lot to do as fountain and and 205 00:23:58,315 --> 00:24:03,215 the other tools that interact in this ecosystem whether they be podcast apps hosting companies 206 00:24:03,215 --> 00:24:10,975 nostre clients you know whatever it is but then also for um for content creators that it's not 207 00:24:10,975 --> 00:24:17,715 it's hard it's hard work you know there has to be first off you have to create incredible content 208 00:24:17,715 --> 00:24:20,055 that when people listen or watch, 209 00:24:20,595 --> 00:24:22,755 they have that moment I was talking about earlier. 210 00:24:22,875 --> 00:24:24,155 You know, it really moves them 211 00:24:24,155 --> 00:24:26,755 or it really provides incredible value to them. 212 00:24:27,255 --> 00:24:28,395 That's job number one. 213 00:24:28,755 --> 00:24:31,255 Secondly, you have to actually ask them 214 00:24:31,255 --> 00:24:33,695 to support you in the right way 215 00:24:33,695 --> 00:24:36,435 and make that incredibly easy, 216 00:24:36,595 --> 00:24:37,475 make it make sense, 217 00:24:37,615 --> 00:24:40,335 fit that into the content format in the right way. 218 00:24:41,015 --> 00:24:42,975 And then also, you know, 219 00:24:42,975 --> 00:24:45,035 we need more people to be using 220 00:24:45,035 --> 00:24:52,555 these open products and open tools that interact with each other. And people need to understand 221 00:24:52,555 --> 00:24:58,175 why that's important more broadly for, I guess, society. So, you know, whether it's Fountain, 222 00:24:58,635 --> 00:25:03,215 you know, doing a better job on the product side, content creators, you know, doing a better job 223 00:25:03,215 --> 00:25:08,515 with the ask, and then just generally everybody communicating and selling essentially this future 224 00:25:08,515 --> 00:25:13,655 vision that is a different way of doing content discovery on the internet. There's a lot still to 225 00:25:13,655 --> 00:25:18,415 do and i think yeah we're even though you know we've been working on fountain for a long time 226 00:25:18,415 --> 00:25:23,135 now i still very much think that it's it's yeah we're right at the beginning of this journey and 227 00:25:23,135 --> 00:25:28,635 hopefully we can we can um achieve what we want to set out to do because i do think it will be 228 00:25:28,635 --> 00:25:36,015 beneficial for everybody involved absolutely i i tend to maybe this is a strained analogy but i 229 00:25:36,015 --> 00:25:46,195 tend to look at value for value, voluntary payment as similar to choosing to buy good, 230 00:25:46,275 --> 00:25:51,915 expensive, clean food. Not everybody will do it. You know, it's one in our, in my family, 231 00:25:51,915 --> 00:25:56,415 it's one of our largest monthly expenses. It's a choice we make. We believe that that's 232 00:25:56,415 --> 00:26:01,475 an incredible investment. And so again, not to strain the analogy, but I think it is 233 00:26:01,475 --> 00:26:11,095 One, something you need to be aware of, two, something you need to value, and three, something, you know, you need to have the means to acquire. 234 00:26:11,315 --> 00:26:22,195 And so I think voluntary payment, the low friction way, and the means of rewarding for those magic moments that you described. 235 00:26:22,335 --> 00:26:30,195 I'm a lifelong drummer, musician, so I, you know, I think I just got the arm hair, thinking about the arm hair tingling. 236 00:26:30,495 --> 00:26:32,775 So it is magic and it's worth a great deal. 237 00:26:33,195 --> 00:26:38,895 And so I know, Oscar, that, you know, as you say, even four years in, it is still very much experimentation. 238 00:26:39,895 --> 00:26:49,715 And I do not wish to dig up the pay to listen sort of phase. 239 00:26:49,715 --> 00:26:58,535 But what I do want to ask about that is what did you learn about the tension between rewarding users and sustainability? 240 00:26:58,535 --> 00:27:08,535 And, you know, so for anyone in your chair, and I understand CAC and LTV and daily active users, and, you know, you do the math and you look at the metrics, some things work, some things don't. 241 00:27:08,535 --> 00:27:31,175 And so my question is not why. My question is, what did you sort of understand then about the teeter-totter of trying to acquire listeners, bring them into this new experience and keep them around as compared to them doing what might be easier, which is slipping back into Spotify or Apple? 242 00:27:31,175 --> 00:27:39,595 Yeah, this is a really interesting aspect of what we have worked on over the past four and a bit years. 243 00:27:40,315 --> 00:27:49,095 Yeah, so for anyone that's not aware, we had and we still actually have in the Fountain app a system of rewards. 244 00:27:49,095 --> 00:27:54,895 So you can earn Bitcoin just by listening to your regular shows on Fountain. 245 00:27:55,235 --> 00:28:00,615 And you can also earn additional Bitcoin by listening to promoted episodes. 246 00:28:01,175 --> 00:28:06,355 And when we launched this feature, it was probably about two and a half years ago. 247 00:28:06,855 --> 00:28:15,435 We were really excited about it because, you know, who wouldn't want to earn small amounts of Bitcoin for just doing what you already do every day, which is listen to podcasts. 248 00:28:15,975 --> 00:28:16,495 I loved it. 249 00:28:17,035 --> 00:28:19,915 And it worked incredibly well. 250 00:28:20,075 --> 00:28:21,295 People loved it. 251 00:28:21,295 --> 00:28:28,355 essentially the reason that we decided to focus less on this is because of the amount of work 252 00:28:28,355 --> 00:28:35,975 that it required to maintain it we're a very small team at the time we were two engineers 253 00:28:35,975 --> 00:28:43,315 we're now three engineers after Dovidas from RSS Blue joined us last year so we're a very small team 254 00:28:43,315 --> 00:28:50,655 and the reality is that if you have some kind of you know paid incentivized rewards mechanic 255 00:28:50,655 --> 00:28:58,715 that is a full-time job to implement properly for you know probably a team of you know five 256 00:28:58,715 --> 00:29:05,355 engineers and we made a decision you know a few years ago to focus less on this so that we could 257 00:29:05,355 --> 00:29:12,075 focus more on just building a top class podcast listening experience because we felt that 258 00:29:12,075 --> 00:29:17,855 that is a more important fundamental for fountain success than an earning mechanic 259 00:29:17,855 --> 00:29:35,775 And also since last year, having moved into the hosting side of podcasting, we also felt that was more important to our kind of end goal of bringing, you know, a value based content discovery system to open podcasting, but also open media. 260 00:29:35,775 --> 00:29:50,875 We felt that those two things, a first class listener experience in the app and a product that we can work with directly with podcasters to help them achieve their goals was more important than focusing on the earning mechanic. 261 00:29:50,875 --> 00:30:09,755 Now, having said that, I still have a lot of conviction around the earning mechanic. And we would love to, I would love to spend more time on it and work out a system where we can essentially increase the rewards to a level where it feels exciting again. 262 00:30:09,755 --> 00:30:13,235 because when we first launched it, the amount that you could earn was quite high, 263 00:30:13,615 --> 00:30:15,015 whereas now it's quite low. 264 00:30:15,015 --> 00:30:22,275 And primarily the reason for that is that we have to fight spam users 265 00:30:22,275 --> 00:30:27,215 that are just there to earn the sats and are not actually listening to anything. 266 00:30:27,455 --> 00:30:30,155 And the way that we've done that is just make the rewards very low 267 00:30:30,155 --> 00:30:32,375 so that there's not a high incentive for them to do that. 268 00:30:33,255 --> 00:30:37,115 If we had a lot more time and focus on this, 269 00:30:37,115 --> 00:30:44,315 we could uh you know revisit this and have a system that works incredibly well and is fair for 270 00:30:44,315 --> 00:30:50,715 for users and you know protects against anti uh spam things like this we just we just don't have 271 00:30:50,715 --> 00:30:57,095 the capacity to focus on it right now um and yeah maybe in the future i hope we will revisit it 272 00:30:57,095 --> 00:31:03,135 because i do believe that especially when it comes to advertising which we don't think is going away 273 00:31:03,135 --> 00:31:06,595 as a monetization pillar for content creators. 274 00:31:06,895 --> 00:31:08,775 There's just so many cool things you can do 275 00:31:08,775 --> 00:31:11,675 with micropayments and a reward mechanic 276 00:31:11,675 --> 00:31:14,195 where the listeners actually can participate 277 00:31:14,195 --> 00:31:16,475 in the value transfer from the advertisers. 278 00:31:16,915 --> 00:31:19,835 It just requires a massive amount of work 279 00:31:19,835 --> 00:31:20,895 in order to do it right. 280 00:31:21,075 --> 00:31:23,515 And we've just chosen to not make that 281 00:31:23,515 --> 00:31:24,755 our top priority right now. 282 00:31:25,615 --> 00:31:26,195 Understood, understood. 283 00:31:26,415 --> 00:31:29,775 And I think, you know, the string that I wanted to pull on, 284 00:31:29,875 --> 00:31:31,455 and I appreciate those insights, 285 00:31:31,455 --> 00:31:34,035 is about the way the money flows. 286 00:31:34,555 --> 00:31:37,715 And so, frankly, be it Bitcoin or whatever else, 287 00:31:37,795 --> 00:31:39,855 so though clearly Bitcoin and micropayments 288 00:31:39,855 --> 00:31:42,795 make things possible that would not be possible in fiat. 289 00:31:42,955 --> 00:31:43,755 And so where I'm going, 290 00:31:44,355 --> 00:31:46,535 I spent many years in music and music tech 291 00:31:46,535 --> 00:31:49,175 and worked with about 100 startups. 292 00:31:49,595 --> 00:31:51,895 Long story short, got deep into the weeds 293 00:31:51,895 --> 00:31:55,855 of everyone who's got their hand in a musician's pocket 294 00:31:55,855 --> 00:31:56,955 or a creator's pocket. 295 00:31:58,115 --> 00:31:59,935 And so I would love if you could, 296 00:31:59,935 --> 00:32:06,855 for those who are perhaps not that deep in the weeds, Oscar, to parallel for us where 297 00:32:06,855 --> 00:32:15,295 parts of a dollar go in major media, big tech, major media, you know, the publishers, the 298 00:32:15,295 --> 00:32:23,155 labels, the Amazons, the Spotify's versus how money flows in open podcasting and open 299 00:32:23,155 --> 00:32:23,555 media. 300 00:32:23,715 --> 00:32:29,215 So could you give us sort of a sense of if I, a creator, have a dollar, you know, at 301 00:32:29,215 --> 00:32:34,935 the top of the funnel, how much lands in my pocket versus, you know, a thousand sats on the other 302 00:32:34,935 --> 00:32:41,335 side? Yeah, this is a great question. And it does depend on what medium you're talking about, 303 00:32:41,335 --> 00:32:47,215 you know, podcasts versus music versus online video. Licensing, royalties, all that good stuff. 304 00:32:47,555 --> 00:32:54,395 Yeah, yeah. But essentially high level, there are many, many steps in the monetization funnel 305 00:32:54,395 --> 00:33:04,815 whereby you as the end recipient of that money are losing out on a potentially big cut on the money. 306 00:33:04,815 --> 00:33:08,255 So take something like YouTube as a very simple example. 307 00:33:09,455 --> 00:33:15,755 Any revenue that you are potentially entitled to on YouTube, 308 00:33:16,315 --> 00:33:20,075 first off, YouTube will take a massive cut out of that. 309 00:33:20,075 --> 00:33:27,535 then you will have the the payment processor which will take another cut then if you're trying to if 310 00:33:27,535 --> 00:33:33,215 you're using a third party to actually sell that advertising that third party might take a cut 311 00:33:33,215 --> 00:33:39,875 and so there's already you know potentially three or four steps in that monetization funnel where 312 00:33:39,875 --> 00:33:44,515 you're losing out and then when it comes to music it's even more complicated because you have 313 00:33:44,515 --> 00:34:03,169 You have the actual labels you have the collection agencies and they all take a cut and then also you have a time aspect to this as well so this is even more um yeah exactly quarterly payouts and so 314 00:34:03,169 --> 00:34:08,950 you know the gap between someone again going back to someone hearing your music and having their 315 00:34:08,950 --> 00:34:16,169 hands stand up on the arm uh to you actually seeing a financial benefit from that as an artist 316 00:34:16,169 --> 00:34:25,369 is many, many months and many, many percentage points lower than the value that that user received. 317 00:34:25,369 --> 00:34:30,869 And I would just add up to 90%. You could end up with 10 cents on the dollar 90 days later. 318 00:34:31,529 --> 00:34:38,329 Yeah, exactly. So, you know, it's classic things that we as humans care deeply about, time and money. 319 00:34:38,329 --> 00:34:45,269 And in the current system, as an artist, as a content creator, you are losing out massively on both time and money. 320 00:34:45,269 --> 00:34:49,349 And the vision for using micropayments. 321 00:34:49,529 --> 00:34:58,209 And one thing that's really important to understand when I say micropayments is we're actually talking about open micropayments. 322 00:34:58,389 --> 00:35:02,269 Because any big technology company can do micropayments. 323 00:35:03,149 --> 00:35:04,709 YouTube can do micropayments. 324 00:35:04,849 --> 00:35:06,529 Spotify can do micropayments. 325 00:35:06,529 --> 00:35:27,609 The important difference to how this works with OpenRSS and Bitcoin in Fountain and other apps is that the micropayments are open, which means that as a content creator, if somebody wants to support you or pay you, they don't have to be using a certain app or system. 326 00:35:27,609 --> 00:35:34,069 they can use whatever app they choose and the money when it gets transferred from that listener 327 00:35:34,069 --> 00:35:41,169 to you gets transferred instantly and there are still you know fees involved you know fountain 328 00:35:41,169 --> 00:35:47,010 takes a very small fee but the important thing is there are micro the payments are micro payments 329 00:35:47,010 --> 00:35:51,669 so we're talking about very small amounts and this allows us to be creative in the way that 330 00:35:51,669 --> 00:35:59,709 we offer support and then it's open so you know these can happen from any apps and i think 331 00:35:59,709 --> 00:36:07,709 the vision for this is that you know whether it's a podcaster or a musician or you know just someone 332 00:36:07,709 --> 00:36:16,729 creating content on the internet they can receive instant donations from any app that wants to 333 00:36:16,729 --> 00:36:22,749 present that content in an interesting way and have that money flow directly into their wallet 334 00:36:22,749 --> 00:36:33,129 within seconds. And then on top of that, what these legacy payment systems cannot do 335 00:36:33,129 --> 00:36:42,689 is tie the payments back to discovery. Again, all of the major discovery mechanics on the internet 336 00:36:42,689 --> 00:36:49,029 right now use attention as a signal for the things that you either see or are presented with 337 00:36:49,029 --> 00:36:57,829 so whether that's a tweet on x whether that's a reel on instagram or whether that's a song in a 338 00:36:57,829 --> 00:37:04,829 spotify playlist or editorial all of the metrics that drive those things being presented to you 339 00:37:04,829 --> 00:37:13,629 are attention-based you know likes impressions plays anything like that and we think that if you 340 00:37:13,629 --> 00:37:25,510 can attach value to discovery algorithms then you can actually have a system that works better for 341 00:37:25,510 --> 00:37:30,249 creators because you can give them more leverage from their you know the people that absolutely 342 00:37:30,249 --> 00:37:36,889 love their content. So the example I always like to give is, let's say both of us liked 343 00:37:36,889 --> 00:37:43,709 a video on YouTube today, you know, later this evening, maybe you go and you watch a YouTube 344 00:37:43,709 --> 00:37:53,209 video from a subscription that you enjoy. For me, I could choose to like that video because it was 345 00:37:53,209 --> 00:38:00,369 slightly interesting and you know it it was a good you know 10 minutes spent uh in on my evening 346 00:38:00,369 --> 00:38:07,249 while i'm winding down and and that like would go into youtube's algorithm and you know maybe 347 00:38:07,249 --> 00:38:14,450 recommend that video to somebody else whereas you sean could watch a video this evening and it could 348 00:38:14,450 --> 00:38:20,909 totally blow your mind and totally you know change your perspective on something in terms of the way 349 00:38:20,909 --> 00:38:26,450 you see the world and so you give it a like and those things are essentially treated in the same 350 00:38:26,450 --> 00:38:35,790 way by the youtube algorithm and so that's where we see these um negative um you know downstream 351 00:38:35,790 --> 00:38:41,849 effects of attention algorithms in terms of like this slot essentially uh getting sent into our 352 00:38:41,849 --> 00:38:49,950 feeds we think that if we can um attach value to these signals then the really valuable content 353 00:38:49,950 --> 00:38:57,429 can kind of be surfaced to the top and people can stop chasing these uh weird algorithm chasing 354 00:38:57,429 --> 00:39:02,849 these weird algorithms to to produce content that is attention grabbing but is not actually deeply 355 00:39:02,849 --> 00:39:09,269 valuable and and going back to your original question that's why having open payments where 356 00:39:09,269 --> 00:39:17,909 any app or service can not only make a payment but can also see the payment metadata that's what's so 357 00:39:17,909 --> 00:39:25,809 important so it's like imagine if you could you know imagine if on the spotify mobile app you had 358 00:39:25,809 --> 00:39:32,669 a button that that just appears at the end of each month and every um spotify listener could 359 00:39:32,669 --> 00:39:39,129 just choose i want to send my 15 a month to one artist and then that data was open and available 360 00:39:39,129 --> 00:39:44,389 to anybody and it was tied into your social graph and you could see like what new artists did my 361 00:39:44,389 --> 00:39:49,889 friends, my family, the people I respect come across this month that they thought were deserving 362 00:39:49,889 --> 00:39:56,269 of that $15. Like that would be an incredible discovery and it would be much better than 363 00:39:56,269 --> 00:39:59,429 what's on offer now. So yeah, long way of answering your question. 364 00:40:00,249 --> 00:40:07,029 No, no, it's great. And I think, you know, my sort of synopsis of that is the age old vote with 365 00:40:07,029 --> 00:40:14,229 your wallet and that where we spend our money is one of the strongest votes and the most 366 00:40:14,229 --> 00:40:21,369 significant signals that we can send. And I think what you drew out to me, or what you drew out that's 367 00:40:21,369 --> 00:40:28,629 most interesting to me in that, Oscar, is that today these flows, these funnels, these mechanics, 368 00:40:28,629 --> 00:40:33,889 not to, you know, get too in the weeds on the lingo, but they're tightly coupled. They are 369 00:40:33,889 --> 00:40:42,929 hermetically sealed. And that seems to work for Spotify, Apple, YouTube, others today. 370 00:40:42,929 --> 00:41:01,209 But what I hear you say is if they were loosely coupled and if they took advantage of these open protocols and the data that they make available, they would have even stronger signals on which to build their product to serve their audience. 371 00:41:01,509 --> 00:41:05,349 And I'm also reminded that, you know, the so-called attention economy. 372 00:41:05,809 --> 00:41:11,490 But I think, again, what you draw out is the attention economy is forever shattered, right? 373 00:41:11,490 --> 00:41:20,769 On one side, because we've got AI slop and I can, for virtually no cost, continue to feed you what I think you want. 374 00:41:21,290 --> 00:41:27,429 And on the other side, we've got such passive engagement, the so-called lean back as opposed to lean forward or lean in, 375 00:41:28,349 --> 00:41:36,109 that, you know, this incredibly, you know, the dead internet theory as it goes, 376 00:41:36,109 --> 00:41:44,369 we've got this flywheel that is just AI feeding someone disengaged. And the future that I see, 377 00:41:44,470 --> 00:41:50,450 you know, us moving toward is one where, again, what I choose to spend my money on is one of the 378 00:41:50,450 --> 00:41:56,349 strongest signals. And all you have to do is tap in to that signal to build better experiences, 379 00:41:56,509 --> 00:42:04,970 build better products. And so on that note, you rebuilt Fountain Social Features on Noster. 380 00:42:04,970 --> 00:42:11,209 And so anyone who listens to this show hears a fair bit about Noster, that's a big bet. 381 00:42:11,569 --> 00:42:15,089 What's the vision that drove that bet? 382 00:42:15,369 --> 00:42:15,450 Yeah. 383 00:42:15,649 --> 00:42:24,889 So from the beginning with Fountain, we wanted to build social features into the podcast discovery 384 00:42:24,889 --> 00:42:25,689 experience. 385 00:42:26,129 --> 00:42:32,049 And at the beginning within the Fountain app, we had our own social system. 386 00:42:32,309 --> 00:42:34,509 We had our own follower graph. 387 00:42:34,509 --> 00:42:49,649 We had our own social profiles. We had our own commenting system. The issue with that initial way of doing things was that it was closed off and it was limited to just the Fountain app. 388 00:42:49,649 --> 00:42:57,669 and we always wanted a way to make the social experience within the fountain app open so that 389 00:42:57,669 --> 00:43:05,209 you know the dream the dream was always somebody can be listening on fountain leave a comment on 390 00:43:05,209 --> 00:43:10,669 the episode and then somebody in a different podcast app can go to the episode page and see 391 00:43:10,669 --> 00:43:17,229 that same comment that was always the dream from day one and within the podcasting 2.0 community 392 00:43:17,229 --> 00:43:23,849 you know the the ambition to achieve that was always there and you know there were many ideas 393 00:43:23,849 --> 00:43:32,950 you know talked about and and proposed on how to exactly do that um NOSTA came about at the 394 00:43:32,950 --> 00:43:41,329 perfect time for us really um and when we saw uh NOSTA even before you know Jack Dorsey you know 395 00:43:41,329 --> 00:43:48,329 tweeted about it and we had that influx of users we were looking at NOSTA as you know 396 00:43:48,329 --> 00:43:57,369 a perfect solution for the social layer of open podcasting now it was a very difficult thing to 397 00:43:57,369 --> 00:44:05,889 transition Fountain's social features from our own internal system to NOSTA for many reasons I won't 398 00:44:05,889 --> 00:44:12,629 get into all of the details but essentially you have your regular you know data migration uh 399 00:44:12,629 --> 00:44:18,389 issues that you'd have with any normal system but then also because NOSTA is key-based uh you 400 00:44:18,389 --> 00:44:24,249 you know in order to create new data you need people to sign with their keys and then also at 401 00:44:24,249 --> 00:44:31,829 the time there was no way to uh you know canonically reference a podcast show or an episode 402 00:44:31,829 --> 00:44:33,089 in a NOSTA event. 403 00:44:33,209 --> 00:44:35,950 So we had to come up with that spec as well, 404 00:44:36,009 --> 00:44:37,589 which is now NIP 73. 405 00:44:37,849 --> 00:44:39,329 So it was very challenging to do, 406 00:44:39,450 --> 00:44:41,149 but where we've arrived at, 407 00:44:41,249 --> 00:44:44,990 and I'm a massive believer that this can power 408 00:44:44,990 --> 00:44:45,929 not just Fountain, 409 00:44:46,129 --> 00:44:48,349 but the entirety of open podcasting, 410 00:44:48,849 --> 00:44:50,470 is we have, number one, 411 00:44:50,689 --> 00:44:54,229 we have a canonical way to reference a podcast show 412 00:44:54,229 --> 00:44:59,669 or episode in a way where anybody can query NOSTA events 413 00:44:59,669 --> 00:45:01,829 related to that show or episode. 414 00:45:03,329 --> 00:45:07,389 This linking, in effect, uses podcast GUIDs, 415 00:45:07,450 --> 00:45:11,409 which are unique identifiers that exist both at the show level 416 00:45:11,409 --> 00:45:12,729 and episode level. 417 00:45:13,269 --> 00:45:17,249 And these follow you even if you switch your hosting provider. 418 00:45:17,450 --> 00:45:22,129 So many apps use these GUIDs to reference episodes and shows, 419 00:45:22,609 --> 00:45:24,909 and we've tied that into NOSTA now. 420 00:45:24,909 --> 00:45:34,689 um so yeah my belief is that um if we can get the open podcast industry to take NOSTA seriously 421 00:45:34,689 --> 00:45:40,749 then NOSTA can be the social layer of open podcasting and what we can do is recreate 422 00:45:40,749 --> 00:45:47,769 the social discovery features that exist on closed platforms like YouTube and Instagram and X 423 00:45:47,769 --> 00:45:54,329 but do it in an open way whereby if your favorite podcast app is overcast and or your favorite 424 00:45:54,329 --> 00:45:59,929 podcast app is antenna pod or whatever you choose to listen to you can still participate 425 00:45:59,929 --> 00:46:05,389 in all of the social discovery to whatever level you want you know some people are not going to 426 00:46:05,389 --> 00:46:10,790 want any social discovery that's fine some people might want a tiny little bit of social discovery 427 00:46:10,790 --> 00:46:15,689 and and that's a great option for them too and then other people might want a full-blown 428 00:46:15,689 --> 00:46:21,369 you know social experience in their podcast app and and that's great that's consumer choice that's 429 00:46:21,369 --> 00:46:29,290 what we want what's important is that with NOSTA your profile your follower relationships your 430 00:46:29,290 --> 00:46:35,569 follower graph the episodes that you've liked or commented on or the episodes that you've supported 431 00:46:35,569 --> 00:46:40,549 financially the shows that you supported financially the clips that you've created of 432 00:46:40,549 --> 00:46:45,950 these episodes the lists that you've built up all of these things are open they're accessible 433 00:46:45,950 --> 00:46:48,749 in any app that wants to participate. 434 00:46:49,129 --> 00:46:50,329 And that's our kind of vision 435 00:46:50,329 --> 00:46:52,470 and what we think NOSTA can deliver. 436 00:46:52,829 --> 00:46:54,869 Where we're at now is, you know, 437 00:46:54,929 --> 00:46:57,950 we've migrated Fountain fully over to NOSTA. 438 00:46:58,089 --> 00:47:01,129 We think the social experience in the Fountain app 439 00:47:01,129 --> 00:47:03,809 is a great kind of first version. 440 00:47:04,470 --> 00:47:06,669 Our main goal now is to try and get 441 00:47:06,669 --> 00:47:07,990 the rest of the podcast industry 442 00:47:07,990 --> 00:47:09,790 to take this seriously and look at it. 443 00:47:09,929 --> 00:47:13,529 And, you know, I think I mentioned before the call 444 00:47:13,529 --> 00:47:19,649 that, you know, we are seeing the podcast industry start to, you know, adopt these newer open 445 00:47:19,649 --> 00:47:25,709 features. We saw iHeartRadio, the app just announced support for alternate enclosure. So 446 00:47:25,709 --> 00:47:30,669 I believe we can get there, but like anything, it's something that takes time. 447 00:47:31,889 --> 00:47:37,409 Yeah. And I think, you know, for, I don't know, perhaps anyone under 30, what is an iHeartRadio? 448 00:47:37,409 --> 00:47:51,389 But for those maybe older, and correct me if I recall, Oscar, you know, they're a national – in the U.S. and I think global, but in the United States, they pretty much run the show. 449 00:47:52,209 --> 00:47:58,769 And they have parlayed that into, you know, I'm thinking about the old Silicon Valley episode, Internet on the Radio, Radio on the Internet. 450 00:47:59,029 --> 00:48:00,929 But they sort of dominate that. 451 00:48:00,929 --> 00:48:09,529 I know that when I ask, you know, one of my Apple devices to play a station, my lightning one, shout out to Lightning 100 in Nashville, it comes over iHeartRadio. 452 00:48:09,609 --> 00:48:16,889 So point being, it's a big deal for those guys to even entertain the idea and to flirt with the technology is a big deal. 453 00:48:17,329 --> 00:48:30,169 So you touched on, you know, cross app comments and social unified identity, which for listeners I would call out does not mean your name and phone number and email address. 454 00:48:30,169 --> 00:48:34,629 You know, you can spin up a Nostr key pair, use that. 455 00:48:35,109 --> 00:48:39,129 You know, I think about the parallels in, say, Substack. 456 00:48:39,689 --> 00:48:43,909 You know, not everybody wants to broadcast their subscriptions in Substack. 457 00:48:44,029 --> 00:48:47,589 They, you know, there may be things there that they don't want others to know that they're consuming. 458 00:48:48,049 --> 00:48:51,290 Similarly on Nostr, so no worries there. 459 00:48:51,389 --> 00:48:57,889 But, you know, cross-app comments, unified identity, censorship resistance, which I think is incredibly important. 460 00:48:57,889 --> 00:49:04,470 Those are the promises. What's working today and what do you think the next big step is? 461 00:49:04,470 --> 00:49:32,490 Yeah, I think in terms of what's working today, I think the thing that podcasters love when we show them how Fountain works and how the Nostra integration works is the fact that somebody leaving a comment on the episode content page in the podcast app appears in the main social media feed in an app like Primal or Damas or Amethyst. 462 00:49:32,490 --> 00:49:41,169 that conceptual difference to the way things work today is massive and even if you're a podcaster 463 00:49:41,169 --> 00:49:46,689 and you have no idea what bitcoin is you have no idea what nostre is you don't really care about 464 00:49:46,689 --> 00:49:52,549 you know censorship resistance or you know technology or any or open podcasting any of this 465 00:49:52,549 --> 00:49:59,429 the fact that you can have a comment show up both as a comment and a post in a social media feed 466 00:49:59,429 --> 00:50:07,389 that is absolutely huge and people love that um it the example i always give is you know sometimes 467 00:50:07,389 --> 00:50:12,649 you see in the youtube comments on videos you'll see a comment and you'll and it will be someone 468 00:50:12,649 --> 00:50:19,709 again saying like wow this video is incredible you know uh i loved it so much that comment doesn't go 469 00:50:19,709 --> 00:50:25,929 anywhere it just sits as a youtube comment and for people to see that and be influenced by that 470 00:50:25,929 --> 00:50:31,950 they have to go to the YouTube video. Imagine if that YouTube comment could go into the Twitter 471 00:50:31,950 --> 00:50:38,589 feed, or the Instagram feed, or the LinkedIn feed, or, you know, the Facebook feed, that 472 00:50:38,589 --> 00:50:59,184 conceptual difference that NOSTA can deliver is I think the thing that you know lights up the eyes of podcasters when I talk to them about it And I would say that is the primary thing that is working although it working at a very basic level because of some of 473 00:50:59,184 --> 00:51:05,564 the challenges to onboarding to NOSTA. You know, NOSTA is not easy to use today. It is very difficult. 474 00:51:06,024 --> 00:51:10,144 There's a lot of things to understand. The onboarding is quite difficult. There's these 475 00:51:10,144 --> 00:51:17,424 things called keys which most people have never heard of um we actually are working on a bunch of 476 00:51:17,424 --> 00:51:21,884 improvements to this within the fountain experience but i think in terms of answering your question 477 00:51:21,884 --> 00:51:27,564 that the ability for content to be in multiple places at once and provide content creators with 478 00:51:27,564 --> 00:51:33,364 discovery in multiple places at once that's the thing that really is magical about noster what we 479 00:51:33,364 --> 00:51:39,884 need to do now is just make it incredibly easy to sign up as a listener and get started yeah and i 480 00:51:39,884 --> 00:51:53,984 I think what I would underscore from what you just laid out, Oscar, for creators in particular is that, as you noted, your listeners have to go to where those those walled off comments are. 481 00:51:53,984 --> 00:52:00,924 And Noster reverses the flow, the engagement, the comments, the money flows toward you. 482 00:52:00,924 --> 00:52:19,424 And if you, in fact, are, you know, presumably the end point as the creator, what a fantastic inversion to be able to have all of that flow towards you as opposed to your users, your listeners have to flow toward those particular walled off apps. 483 00:52:19,424 --> 00:52:32,164 And, you know, I think X is now, and you may have the stats, it is a significant creator platform now because they're, as I understand, paying pretty richly, at least the top 1% are doing very well. 484 00:52:32,524 --> 00:52:43,344 And so on X or Spotify, if they decide to censor a creator tomorrow, what's different on Fountain with Noster and Bitcoin? 485 00:52:43,344 --> 00:52:56,224 Yeah, what's different in terms of censorship is that if one app or client decides to censor you, you can always go and choose a different app or client. 486 00:52:56,624 --> 00:53:02,984 And you can ask your audience to go and, you know, listen or watch your content on a different client. 487 00:53:02,984 --> 00:53:10,844 um so you know if somebody follows you on NOSTA they can uh see your posts on you know one of 488 00:53:10,844 --> 00:53:17,404 hundreds of different NOSTA clients at this point and that's the way things work in open podcasting 489 00:53:17,404 --> 00:53:24,784 as well you know Apple or Spotify maybe may decide to uh take down your show and have it not 490 00:53:24,784 --> 00:53:32,284 discoverable in in the Spotify search or you know not allow you to think new episodes in the app but 491 00:53:32,284 --> 00:53:37,944 You can always go and find another podcast app that isn't participating in that censorship 492 00:53:37,944 --> 00:53:40,344 or just go and find the RSS feed directly. 493 00:53:40,524 --> 00:53:45,204 So that's what's different about these open protocols. 494 00:53:45,204 --> 00:53:50,224 What's cool about NOSTA is it has that social layer tied into it. 495 00:53:50,744 --> 00:53:54,264 So it's not just about, you know, where do I get the content, 496 00:53:54,384 --> 00:53:58,344 but it's also about how do I have recommendations, 497 00:53:58,344 --> 00:54:00,984 in, again, in the world of, you know, 498 00:54:01,124 --> 00:54:03,164 basically unlimited optionality 499 00:54:03,164 --> 00:54:05,504 for what you listen to or watch. 500 00:54:07,064 --> 00:54:08,424 And so, you know, in short, 501 00:54:08,984 --> 00:54:11,044 it is, we cannot guarantee 502 00:54:11,044 --> 00:54:12,944 that there can be no censorship, 503 00:54:13,104 --> 00:54:15,044 but it is highly censorship resistant, right? 504 00:54:15,084 --> 00:54:17,024 You've got tremendous choice. 505 00:54:17,304 --> 00:54:18,524 On the flip side of that, 506 00:54:18,564 --> 00:54:20,504 to sort of switch lanes for a second, Oscar, 507 00:54:20,504 --> 00:54:24,604 Oscar, to talk about your experience 508 00:54:24,604 --> 00:54:26,404 as an entrepreneur, as a builder, 509 00:54:26,404 --> 00:54:35,584 You know, you're building on Bitcoin, Lightning, Noster, open podcasting, a number of open protocols. 510 00:54:36,044 --> 00:54:42,704 You know, for those out there who are builders and entrepreneurs, how do you manage the risk of making those bets? 511 00:54:42,924 --> 00:54:46,484 You know, where the sands shift, Noster, who knows, right? 512 00:54:46,544 --> 00:54:48,004 Maybe it pans out, maybe it doesn't. 513 00:54:48,284 --> 00:54:51,124 Maybe there's critical adoption, mass adoption, maybe there's not. 514 00:54:51,204 --> 00:54:53,724 Like, what does that look like for you as an entrepreneur? 515 00:54:53,724 --> 00:55:16,964 Yeah, it's very difficult. I'm not going to lie. It's incredibly hard to attempt to build a sustainable business on top of not just one, but two brand new, you know, protocols or technologies that don't have a lot of adoption. 516 00:55:16,964 --> 00:55:26,864 You know, Bitcoin has a lot of adoption, but Bitcoin used as everyday micropayments on the internet does not have a lot of adoption. 517 00:55:27,484 --> 00:55:29,304 And NOSTA does not have a lot of adoption. 518 00:55:29,604 --> 00:55:38,084 So the fact that Fountain is built on top of those two premises is incredibly risky. 519 00:55:38,504 --> 00:55:41,464 And, you know, by no means will it be successful. 520 00:55:42,084 --> 00:55:44,224 And it's a very difficult thing to do. 521 00:55:44,224 --> 00:55:52,064 so yeah that's probably the simple answer i would say that what i've kind of come to 522 00:55:52,064 --> 00:55:57,784 realize over the years and and this was maybe something that we were a bit naive on to start 523 00:55:57,784 --> 00:56:07,364 with is that we can actually um make these huge bets on these new um technologies bitcoin as a 524 00:56:07,364 --> 00:56:13,644 as a mechanism for micro payments and nostra as an open social protocol whilst also just 525 00:56:13,644 --> 00:56:19,944 delivering a great product for customers where they're at right now and kind of solving their 526 00:56:19,944 --> 00:56:27,164 more immediate problems so that was a big part of our shift to offer podcasts and to a lesser extent 527 00:56:27,164 --> 00:56:33,084 music hosting last year you know there's many podcasters out there that that need and want a 528 00:56:33,084 --> 00:56:40,244 podcast hosting platform that delivers you know amazing benefits to them separate to this grand 529 00:56:40,244 --> 00:56:47,024 future vision of open payments and social and new discovery algorithms based on value. 530 00:56:47,604 --> 00:56:50,624 And that's what we try to do with Fountain for Podcasters. 531 00:56:50,624 --> 00:56:57,184 And so I would say that is our attempt to, you know, manage the risk and build a sustainable 532 00:56:57,184 --> 00:57:06,864 business that is not 100% reliant on NOSTA or Bitcoin as a mechanism for micro payments 533 00:57:06,864 --> 00:57:07,864 and the adoption of that. 534 00:57:07,864 --> 00:57:31,944 But ultimately, ultimately, the first answer I gave is the reality like Fountain is only going to be successful if number one, Bitcoin is easy to use. It's not easy to use. We're based in the UK. It is not easy to get Bitcoin, get your first Bitcoin on the Lightning Network in the UK. It's very difficult. There's a lot of friction. 535 00:57:31,944 --> 00:57:40,224 and Nostra is not easy to use either um you know the experience of signing up to Fountain and then 536 00:57:40,224 --> 00:57:48,344 transferring your keys into another mobile app like uh Primal or Damus or Amethyst that is confusing 537 00:57:48,344 --> 00:57:54,644 to to your average person as well yeah it's very difficult but it comes back to what we talked 538 00:57:54,644 --> 00:58:02,744 about earlier yes i i want fountain to be successful um as a business and you know 539 00:58:02,744 --> 00:58:09,984 uh and grow and and generate a lot of revenue and all of that but also we believe that there's a 540 00:58:09,984 --> 00:58:17,064 better world here and you know i'm i'm also coming at this from the perspective of let's try this 541 00:58:17,064 --> 00:58:24,944 let's attempt to make this work and if it does work just the the outcome would be huge not just 542 00:58:24,944 --> 00:58:30,264 in terms of fountain as a business but just in terms of you know content discovery and and that's 543 00:58:30,264 --> 00:58:37,584 something that i think is really really important so yeah if it was purely rational about can you 544 00:58:37,584 --> 00:58:43,304 build you know a business and how quickly can you build a big business this would not be the optimum 545 00:58:43,304 --> 00:58:49,164 way to do it this is much more than that it's about a vision for a future of content discovery 546 00:58:49,164 --> 00:58:54,104 on the internet and and it's a bit crazy to be doing it but there's a chance I think there's a 547 00:58:54,104 --> 00:59:00,724 good chance especially um with the fact that we're starting with podcasting which is already open 548 00:59:00,724 --> 00:59:06,604 and people as I said in response to one of your previous questions podcasters already understand 549 00:59:06,604 --> 00:59:13,104 that you know listen wherever you get your podcast so i think that if you if you compare 550 00:59:13,104 --> 00:59:20,304 um the explanation of nostr to a podcaster compared to a different type of content creator 551 00:59:20,304 --> 00:59:27,444 it's easier for them to understand because you can uh reference it with the phrase wherever you 552 00:59:27,444 --> 00:59:32,024 get your podcast it's like it's like the same way podcasting works but for social media you know it's 553 00:59:32,024 --> 00:59:36,884 open people can use any app podcasters will say oh yeah i i get how that works yeah it makes sense 554 00:59:36,884 --> 00:59:43,144 um so yeah long-winded answer to your question no no and i i appreciate it and i think you know 555 00:59:43,144 --> 00:59:52,464 this is this is not the built to flip it 10x path right um but the thing i would underscore 556 00:59:52,464 --> 00:59:58,324 that perhaps we haven't touched on for a creator and admittedly there will be only so many creators 557 00:59:58,324 --> 00:59:59,864 who wish to do this, care to do this. 558 01:00:00,364 --> 01:00:01,624 You guys, because I'm a customer, 559 01:00:01,724 --> 01:00:03,084 because I host this show with you, 560 01:00:03,704 --> 01:00:04,984 have great dashboards. 561 01:00:05,544 --> 01:00:07,764 The thing that I think is interesting 562 01:00:07,764 --> 01:00:08,964 in open anything, 563 01:00:09,344 --> 01:00:10,884 but let's look at open podcasting 564 01:00:10,884 --> 01:00:12,804 and open media and Noster 565 01:00:12,804 --> 01:00:14,164 as this layer is data. 566 01:00:15,304 --> 01:00:16,764 For the nerds among us, 567 01:00:16,884 --> 01:00:20,504 I aimed Claude Code at my Albie Hub, 568 01:00:20,624 --> 01:00:21,324 shout out to Albie, 569 01:00:21,864 --> 01:00:23,384 self-hosted Albie Hub, 570 01:00:24,404 --> 01:00:27,224 wherein all of my podcasting to payments 571 01:00:27,224 --> 01:00:34,564 via Fountain and others flow and integrated that with the zap function I have on my website for my 572 01:00:34,564 --> 01:00:40,864 writing. You know, again, humble numbers. But as you say, believing in the future, 30 minutes later, 573 01:00:41,124 --> 01:00:47,784 I've got a unified dashboard, you know, A, because AI, right? I mean, I'm a comp sci guy from long 574 01:00:47,784 --> 01:00:52,384 ago, but I don't really, you know, build like that. So I've got the ability to use these tools. 575 01:00:52,384 --> 01:01:07,244 But the point I really want to make is the data, right? So, you know, in an age where AI begins to take over more and more of the sort of, you know, mechanics of building software, having access to data is the limiting factor. 576 01:01:07,244 --> 01:01:20,744 And open podcasting, open media, Noster, Bitcoin, these offer us the ability to get access to, to hold, to manage, self-host, whatever term you may choose, that data. 577 01:01:20,904 --> 01:01:27,284 And I think, you know, TLDR, that data unlocks a tremendous amount of insight, as it always has. 578 01:01:28,004 --> 01:01:29,564 And this is the only way you get it. 579 01:01:29,824 --> 01:01:33,624 So I think there's a point there that is also worth underscoring. 580 01:01:33,624 --> 01:01:37,944 So as we begin to wrap up, Oscar, I don't want to take too much of your time here. 581 01:01:38,364 --> 01:01:46,944 For a creator who is thinking about the risks of platform dependence, what's their first move? 582 01:01:46,944 --> 01:01:55,884 Yeah, I would say the first step, if you are interested in everything that we've talked about, is to just join NOSTA. 583 01:01:56,544 --> 01:02:01,124 You know, download a NOSTA client like Primal. 584 01:02:01,384 --> 01:02:03,324 I would say that's a great place to start. 585 01:02:03,624 --> 01:02:05,404 They have a built-in lightning wallet. 586 01:02:06,464 --> 01:02:09,264 And just start experimenting. 587 01:02:09,764 --> 01:02:17,524 Dip your toes in the water without any, you know, pressure or expectation to have something big come from it. 588 01:02:17,524 --> 01:02:19,984 You know, follow a few people on NOSTA. 589 01:02:20,144 --> 01:02:21,444 Follow me. Follow Sean. 590 01:02:21,984 --> 01:02:30,284 And then, you know, try taking your NOSTA keys, which are your identity, and moving them from one NOSTA app to another. 591 01:02:30,284 --> 01:02:36,344 you know the keys and profile that you've created in primal move them into fountain and you'll see 592 01:02:36,344 --> 01:02:44,144 that um the content that you see in fountain which is a podcast app um suddenly changes and 593 01:02:44,144 --> 01:02:49,664 you know falls in content based on the people that you've followed on primal and and and that's 594 01:02:49,664 --> 01:02:55,964 all you've got to do you've just got to try doing that and then just use your imagination for what 595 01:02:55,964 --> 01:03:03,044 this can become in the future and then i would say just just uh yeah go from there and and start 596 01:03:03,044 --> 01:03:08,364 interacting on nostr try and build up a little bit of a a group of people that you follow that 597 01:03:08,364 --> 01:03:14,404 you find their content interesting send some zaps you know receive some zaps and that's all you got 598 01:03:14,404 --> 01:03:21,504 to do really it's pretty simple and you know if you um like what we we've kind of talked about 599 01:03:21,504 --> 01:03:26,944 today then you can play a big part in in helping move the internet in that direction because it's 600 01:03:26,944 --> 01:03:33,144 very early and you know there's so much that needs to happen in terms of not just on the building 601 01:03:33,144 --> 01:03:39,804 side but just on the educational side and also just feedback for you know app developers and 602 01:03:39,804 --> 01:03:46,424 people trying to build this space and move it forward you know one of the um most amazing things 603 01:03:46,424 --> 01:03:49,284 about building Fountain over the past few years 604 01:03:49,284 --> 01:03:52,324 is just the feedback that we've received from users. 605 01:03:53,944 --> 01:03:56,104 We couldn't have done it without that feedback. 606 01:03:56,484 --> 01:03:59,084 And we just really appreciate all the feedback. 607 01:03:59,324 --> 01:04:00,904 So yeah, it's very simple. 608 01:04:01,064 --> 01:04:03,204 Dip your toe in the water, create a Nofter profile, 609 01:04:03,804 --> 01:04:06,904 experience moving your social media profile 610 01:04:06,904 --> 01:04:07,944 from one app to another 611 01:04:07,944 --> 01:04:09,884 and bring all your followers for the first time. 612 01:04:10,724 --> 01:04:13,084 And just, yeah, just try and help out. 613 01:04:14,004 --> 01:04:15,444 Yeah, and I think the only thing 614 01:04:15,444 --> 01:04:22,324 I would add to that, Bravo, is to clarify or emphasize that you're not moving, you're not 615 01:04:22,324 --> 01:04:29,644 migrating. It just moves with you, right? So that key pair that by signing in, let's just say to a 616 01:04:29,644 --> 01:04:35,004 few apps, as you say now, Oscar, you know, it's indistinguishable from magic. Your follow graph, 617 01:04:35,324 --> 01:04:38,824 your follows and follows and your content, everything goes with your profile. 618 01:04:38,824 --> 01:04:47,144 And so as a final question, Oscar, for someone who's never used Fountain, what's the pitch? Why switch? 619 01:04:48,284 --> 01:04:52,044 Yeah, I mean, Fountain is like any other podcast app. 620 01:04:52,464 --> 01:05:03,624 So we have put a lot of effort into making the podcast listening experience the way your podcast library is set up, you know, a top class experience. 621 01:05:03,624 --> 01:05:08,204 So if you listen to podcasts, you can listen to your podcast in Fountain. 622 01:05:08,204 --> 01:05:14,504 you can import from Spotify or Apple Podcasts or any other podcast app very, very easily and quickly. 623 01:05:15,324 --> 01:05:22,044 And so, but then as well as, you know, a first class podcast listening experience, 624 01:05:22,044 --> 01:05:26,624 we have the ability to number one, support your favorite content creators. 625 01:05:26,824 --> 01:05:34,044 We've talked about why that's important, but then also see what other people you follow are listening to and finding enjoyable. 626 01:05:34,044 --> 01:05:41,944 enjoyable and you know personally I find that's a really interesting way to discover new content 627 01:05:41,944 --> 01:05:48,384 that maybe is not in your you know regular rotation if that makes sense you know there's 628 01:05:48,384 --> 01:05:53,804 plenty of shows out there where you're never going to actually subscribe to the feed you're 629 01:05:53,804 --> 01:05:58,444 never actually going to follow the feed but that doesn't mean there's you know single episodes that 630 01:05:58,444 --> 01:06:03,884 would actually change your perspective and I think that's a great way to kind of expand 631 01:06:03,884 --> 01:06:10,044 your mind and get out of maybe what your you know filter bubble is in terms of the few shows that 632 01:06:10,044 --> 01:06:17,284 you listen to so yeah uh give fountain a try you can import your your shows in you know less than 633 01:06:17,284 --> 01:06:22,704 30 seconds and yeah let us know what you think if there's anything you don't like in terms of the 634 01:06:22,704 --> 01:06:28,224 user experience you can just reach out to us and we're you know actively working on improving things 635 01:06:28,224 --> 01:06:34,124 so yeah give us a try yeah yeah and i mean sincerely i've been there since day one not 636 01:06:34,124 --> 01:06:41,604 rah rah me i'm an early adopter but um it is understandably night and day uh because things 637 01:06:41,604 --> 01:06:46,584 evolve but again i want to say that it is now absolutely first class i mean i i remember when 638 01:06:46,584 --> 01:06:52,524 i switched from castro or whatever i was using back when i stole an iphone it felt like a sacrifice 639 01:06:52,524 --> 01:06:54,204 but I wanted to understand it. 640 01:06:54,604 --> 01:06:57,284 And now it is, there's no sacrifice. 641 01:06:57,484 --> 01:06:59,524 I mean, it is just absolutely excellent. 642 01:06:59,704 --> 01:07:01,084 So I would encourage everyone to do that. 643 01:07:01,844 --> 01:07:05,384 And I'm delighted to have had this conversation, Oscar. 644 01:07:05,564 --> 01:07:07,364 I appreciate the work you guys are doing, 645 01:07:07,464 --> 01:07:08,344 you, Nick, and the team. 646 01:07:09,104 --> 01:07:12,404 And I will look forward to seeing those new features 647 01:07:12,404 --> 01:07:14,904 that you teased coming out very soon 648 01:07:14,904 --> 01:07:15,944 and following your progress. 649 01:07:15,944 --> 01:07:18,524 Yeah, well, thanks so much for having me on, Sean. 650 01:07:18,624 --> 01:07:19,664 Really appreciate it. 651 01:07:19,664 --> 01:07:24,564 And yeah, hopefully you can come back on again once we've dropped some of this new stuff 652 01:07:24,564 --> 01:07:25,564 that's coming. 653 01:07:25,564 --> 01:07:26,564 Absolutely. 654 01:07:26,564 --> 01:07:27,564 Let's do it. 655 01:07:27,564 --> 01:07:28,564 Thanks again, Oscar. 656 01:07:28,564 --> 01:07:29,564 Bye bye.