1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,460
And that's really what responsibility is about, is about empowerment.

2
00:00:03,460 --> 00:00:08,940
Because if I can't take responsibility for something, I can't be empowered around it.

3
00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:16,060
But the moment that I do take responsibility for it, it means I am empowered around it and I have a choice that I can make around it.

4
00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:23,580
And so I think when people finally get that with money and they go, whoa, I'm empowered here, they go, I can also be empowered with my health in a different way.

5
00:00:23,580 --> 00:00:26,720
I can be empowered with my education in a different way.

6
00:00:26,820 --> 00:00:29,520
I can be empowered with my nutrition in a different way.

7
00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:45,040
And that becomes a self-fulfilling thing where he realizes like, oh, like this is this huge thing in my life that I was missing. And then I think one of the most important pieces of that is finally you go, maybe there is something important about this reality.

8
00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:51,220
maybe me loving myself and my family and connecting to this higher purpose and responsibility of

9
00:00:51,220 --> 00:00:56,100
what does it mean that we could change the future together by taking responsibility rather than

10
00:00:56,100 --> 00:01:00,220
telling the state to do it and i think that's sort of the coalescing that we're watching of

11
00:01:00,220 --> 00:01:05,420
all bitcoiners is realizing like we can actually take responsibility for the future that all of

12
00:01:05,420 --> 00:01:10,540
humanity is going to inherit but that's only once we've made the decision that we actually

13
00:01:10,540 --> 00:01:14,200
will be responsible for it as opposed to relegating it outside of us.

14
00:01:15,060 --> 00:01:20,160
Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for coming by for another episode of the Ben Wurman podcast.

15
00:01:20,460 --> 00:01:27,500
I appreciate you being here. Today, we have Eric Kaysen, who is an excellent Bitcoiner in the space.

16
00:01:27,820 --> 00:01:32,980
He pumps out so much great content. He's an author, a writer. He goes on all sorts of podcasts.

17
00:01:33,340 --> 00:01:37,980
He's pumping out all sorts of great rants on Noster, and we're very happy to have him here today

18
00:01:37,980 --> 00:01:41,500
to talk about Bitcoin and crypto sovereignty.

19
00:01:41,780 --> 00:01:42,980
Eric, thank you so much for being here, man.

20
00:01:43,620 --> 00:01:44,600
Yeah, thanks for having me on.

21
00:01:44,740 --> 00:01:47,380
I've been enjoying following you on Noster mostly,

22
00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,200
and I'm happy that that's been sticky for you.

23
00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:51,860
I've been talking to other people that have been like,

24
00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:53,700
I don't know about Noster.

25
00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,280
And I'm like, well, just wait until you get kicked off other platforms

26
00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,120
and then you'll kind of understand its value.

27
00:01:58,940 --> 00:02:03,360
Or until they feel like they want to get paid for sharing content.

28
00:02:04,300 --> 00:02:07,180
Yeah, like that's kind of the more surprising one is like,

29
00:02:07,180 --> 00:02:12,580
hey, you could actually get paid 10 times more streaming your music here than on competing services.

30
00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,960
But you do you. If you like getting screwed, feel free.

31
00:02:16,920 --> 00:02:22,000
And one of the things I've been telling people recently is, as I was just sharing with you before I started recording,

32
00:02:22,580 --> 00:02:29,000
I am right now living in Costa Rica, right down the street from all sorts of different shops and markets that accept Bitcoin for things.

33
00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:35,640
So I have literally been buying my beef for dinner with the Bitcoin I've earned on Nostra.

34
00:02:35,640 --> 00:02:40,680
like I have you know enough zaps on there where I can continue buying meat and it's not quite

35
00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:46,460
sustainable yet you know the zaps are still small but I had a decent savings from posting my butt

36
00:02:46,460 --> 00:02:50,300
offer the last two years so I have a little bit of bitcoin to spend I haven't tapped into my fiat

37
00:02:50,300 --> 00:02:56,220
balance yet so I mean this is the dream life I think just creators being able to just create

38
00:02:56,220 --> 00:03:01,940
content on there speak their mind get value for value rewarded and be able to just live their life

39
00:03:01,940 --> 00:03:07,040
that way i think that it should be a valuable path or a tenable path for people don't you

40
00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:12,100
absolutely like i think uh it's funny because i've had this conversation a number of times where

41
00:03:12,100 --> 00:03:16,620
like there's a lot of people will look at market dynamics and sort of look backwards and being like

42
00:03:16,620 --> 00:03:21,120
well you gotta like you gotta appeal to the masses like how are we going to recruit everybody

43
00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:25,600
to noster and it's like no like there's a totally different model that like we're growing noster for

44
00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:30,520
people that are uninterested in that model and people that do want the self-ownership of what

45
00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:35,440
doesn't mean I really own my own content. And like, I just, I personally find it's a little

46
00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:40,940
crazy, like as content producers that people, uh, are still willing to go into these centralized

47
00:03:40,940 --> 00:03:47,040
services where you can get canceled at any point in time. And I don't know, like it seems kind of

48
00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:52,260
wild to me that there isn't a greater thought process. That's like, well, if I can get canceled,

49
00:03:52,260 --> 00:03:55,800
there's an opportunity that I will be canceled. And if I can be canceled and that's where I make

50
00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:00,320
all my money, should I even open myself up to this possibility? You know, and the one that

51
00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,640
really breaks my heart is people that that, you know, make

52
00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,420
really great high quality YouTube content, and then they find

53
00:04:05,420 --> 00:04:07,340
they just get banned, you don't have access to any of that

54
00:04:07,340 --> 00:04:11,060
content. And like now, now it's like a real problem for you. And

55
00:04:11,060 --> 00:04:13,400
I would have hoped after the tick tock ban that people would

56
00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,880
really sort of get what was happening. But in all honesty,

57
00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,960
like, I think we just need to kind of go through these cycles

58
00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,080
for a while longer. And you know, there'll be another event on

59
00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,200
Twitter, there'll be something on Instagram or Facebook,

60
00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,980
wherever, and each cycle sort of cause for more people to come

61
00:04:27,980 --> 00:04:33,260
here, maybe 10% stick and over time, that'll start to build greater audiences.

62
00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:38,640
The one I'm really waiting for is, uh, just really talented artists to use

63
00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,020
Noster and be like, Hey, this is my one platform.

64
00:04:41,020 --> 00:04:42,140
Cause I own everything.

65
00:04:42,140 --> 00:04:43,900
You get exclusive content here.

66
00:04:44,180 --> 00:04:45,080
You should come here.

67
00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,480
Cause like you can zap me directly.

68
00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:48,740
I really appreciate it.

69
00:04:49,280 --> 00:04:52,560
And yeah, for, for me, that's kind of the bigger deal is like, I want to have a

70
00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:57,960
sincere peer to peer relationship with the people whose, uh, art and posts.

71
00:04:57,960 --> 00:04:59,620
and content I really like.

72
00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,640
And so I think it's really important and great to see that it's being developed.

73
00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:09,580
And I think there's a lot of, there's a real lack of appreciation of just how young this

74
00:05:09,580 --> 00:05:10,320
still is.

75
00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:15,280
And so it's like, look, if we're like 15 years in, maybe I could see why you thought

76
00:05:15,280 --> 00:05:16,360
traction wasn't so good.

77
00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:18,660
But like, we're only a couple years in.

78
00:05:18,660 --> 00:05:21,160
So like, let's have a little bit of patience and see where we can go.

79
00:05:22,300 --> 00:05:22,700
Yeah.

80
00:05:22,700 --> 00:05:31,400
Yeah, and like you mentioned there, the incentives are so clear for these people with big audiences on a centralized platform to just move over there.

81
00:05:31,540 --> 00:05:38,620
It takes like 10 minutes to create an account and just make a post on your Instagram or Twitter or whatever and say, hey, this is what Nostra is.

82
00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:39,240
It's pretty cool.

83
00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:40,780
You should come check it out and follow me.

84
00:05:40,780 --> 00:05:45,840
They instantly get a new income stream from their audience that loves them and wants to support them.

85
00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:51,180
And this is one of the cool experiments we've seen in real time is are people actually going to zap?

86
00:05:51,180 --> 00:05:55,540
Like who would actually give away their Bitcoin when they could just consume this content for free?

87
00:05:55,580 --> 00:06:01,220
And what we've seen is people love zapping each other and sending value back when they receive value.

88
00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:08,440
And it's been very much a white pill moment for humanity of just seeing like, wow, people like actually really want to support these artists and these creators.

89
00:06:08,740 --> 00:06:17,900
We just have to bring them over and just show them the bridge onto it because there are basically still zero real A-list like influential voices on there.

90
00:06:17,900 --> 00:06:20,000
I would say Jack Dorsey is really the only one.

91
00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,000
Edward Snowden came on and posted a few times,

92
00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:24,280
but he hasn't been on there in like a year.

93
00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,060
It's like no big celebrities or any voices

94
00:06:28,060 --> 00:06:30,000
that will really pull people over yet.

95
00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,080
So it's still a total infancy right now.

96
00:06:32,740 --> 00:06:35,680
Yeah, and like I'm surprised that more people haven't

97
00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,120
like essentially used the centralized services as a feed.

98
00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,560
Be like, hey, I'm going to put spicier content out there

99
00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:43,140
that would probably get me banned here.

100
00:06:43,460 --> 00:06:46,020
So like come to Noster and check out what I have to say.

101
00:06:46,020 --> 00:06:51,560
um but also it's just like long term like people are going to want to own their own data and as we

102
00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:57,720
get more tools more infrastructure easier ways to use these things like the the value add is going

103
00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:02,960
to become so clear over time that people are just going to make that choice uh and and even if not

104
00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:08,380
like i'm loving it i'm not going anywhere and like one of my favorite things is like bring up my x fee

105
00:07:08,380 --> 00:07:14,140
and bring up my noster fee and like doom scroll and be rage baited for like 10 minutes and then i

106
00:07:14,140 --> 00:07:19,740
go oh i close it and i go to noster i'm like oh like yeah like stuff's like normal like i'm i'm

107
00:07:19,740 --> 00:07:25,880
just totally being rage baited this whole time and for me that's such a a dramatic unveiling of

108
00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:31,020
like how much we're actually getting totally tooled by the algorithms in ways that i think

109
00:07:31,020 --> 00:07:36,400
are really dangerous you know like i still lurk on x lot i stopped posting uh i don't know like

110
00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,680
six or nine months ago just because like i found i was getting too involved in rage baiting i'm

111
00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:45,520
I'm planning on coming back at some point in time just because I'm doing a new startup

112
00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,040
and there'll be necessities to reach out more through that platform.

113
00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:54,400
But yeah, that's the other one that I think is the most important to people is have an

114
00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,780
opportunity to see what it looks like when you have an algorithm that's not explicitly

115
00:07:58,780 --> 00:08:02,120
trying to control you and bait you in certain ways.

116
00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:03,260
And that's what Nostar offers.

117
00:08:03,260 --> 00:08:05,860
And I think it's a really powerful perspective to have.

118
00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:07,920
A hundred percent.

119
00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,860
But super, super excited to see what the coming years bring.

120
00:08:11,020 --> 00:08:15,360
And like you said, it's still kind of just coming in spurts right now, adoption spurts,

121
00:08:15,380 --> 00:08:21,320
when there are certain geopolitical or big tech social media events that happen where people say,

122
00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:22,840
screw this, I'm going to look for something else.

123
00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,840
And enough people have planted seeds at that point for them to go check Nostra out.

124
00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:32,280
But, you know, I do see every single time we have one of those spurts, more and more people are sticking.

125
00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,340
And it's just slowly gathering momentum.

126
00:08:34,340 --> 00:08:39,340
And in sort of the same way that Bitcoin is, people are just going to come when they feel like they have to.

127
00:08:40,380 --> 00:08:44,760
And they're sure. And like this is what came in the status quo to need an alternative.

128
00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,460
And they just don't really need it yet for the most part, but they will.

129
00:08:48,340 --> 00:08:51,060
Yeah. And like, that's what that's what I witnessed through Bitcoin.

130
00:08:51,060 --> 00:08:59,020
Like I remember in 2013, when Cyprus implemented capital controls, like there was like a big spike in the price of Bitcoin.

131
00:08:59,180 --> 00:09:03,460
Everyone was really excited. And there was sincere people that were fleeing from capital controls.

132
00:09:03,460 --> 00:09:08,340
in cyprus using bitcoin but like we have events that happen like that over and over and again and

133
00:09:08,340 --> 00:09:13,140
again and that's the same thing that will happen with noser and the same thing like uh i just find

134
00:09:13,140 --> 00:09:20,100
there's like a real lack of appreciation of of like this is all already going so breakneck fast

135
00:09:20,100 --> 00:09:24,900
across the board and if we're seeing what the real adoption curve is it's like pretty crazy

136
00:09:25,780 --> 00:09:30,340
so i really think it's just like have patience like the same thing like bitcoin's not going to

137
00:09:30,340 --> 00:09:34,580
fail. NOSU is not going to fail. This is one of the great things about these models is that like

138
00:09:34,580 --> 00:09:39,940
it doesn't like these aren't highly financed models and businesses that can go into failure

139
00:09:39,940 --> 00:09:44,260
modes. And so like, I think that's a really important thing to remember. And also because

140
00:09:44,260 --> 00:09:47,840
it's all open source, like anybody can pick it up and put it down whenever they want. And that's

141
00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:53,280
really important. And so very similar to Bitcoin, I expect us to continue to have these growth cycles.

142
00:09:53,700 --> 00:09:57,940
And I also think like these are just sort of the prototypes and the preliminary

143
00:09:57,940 --> 00:10:04,420
forms of what will eventually become sort of a new political structure in terms of a capital T,

144
00:10:04,420 --> 00:10:10,620
capital P. And it's already obvious to me that both Bitcoin and Noster are part of the same

145
00:10:10,620 --> 00:10:16,340
cypherpunk ethos, that these are tools that all of humanity needs. And it's not necessarily about

146
00:10:16,340 --> 00:10:22,480
Americans need them or Europeans or South Africans, but all peoples everywhere will always need access

147
00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:27,500
to encryption technologies, the ability to have peer-to-peer contact with each other and make

148
00:10:27,500 --> 00:10:30,560
peer-to-peer exchanges on their own subjectivity.

149
00:10:30,780 --> 00:10:34,620
And there's like never going to be a time in humanity where that isn't necessary.

150
00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:40,300
And so for me, that value add is so important that it truly is the most political thing

151
00:10:40,300 --> 00:10:41,180
that exists today.

152
00:10:41,580 --> 00:10:45,680
And that's why it's going to win is that there's nothing else that offers that in the same way.

153
00:10:46,680 --> 00:10:47,880
Yeah, 100%.

154
00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:53,300
And the sense how you say like it's the most political thing, I think that's sort of a

155
00:10:53,300 --> 00:10:59,540
different way of what I usually say, which is the most important vote that you have is not red team

156
00:10:59,540 --> 00:11:05,100
or blue team, but what kind of money you choose to put your savings in, which I believe is Bitcoin.

157
00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,280
Would you agree with me on that? And how would you elaborate on that concept?

158
00:11:09,300 --> 00:11:14,220
Absolutely. And I'd say it's more than just a vote. It's a choice to make sure that the vote

159
00:11:14,220 --> 00:11:20,580
can no longer disenfranchise you. And it's truly terrifying to me that we have a political system

160
00:11:20,580 --> 00:11:24,420
where like if we get a plurality of people that decide they want to disenfranchise

161
00:11:24,420 --> 00:11:44,810
another part of the population that that like part of it And it like I find it really insulting on a number of levels that like like you have a like there are individuals that have a sincere belief that like they can steal my like my property which are firearms because they don like what other people have made a choice to do that with

162
00:11:45,490 --> 00:11:53,730
And like, to me, that's like such a grotesque violation that the truth is, is like, there isn't a whole lot that I can actually do about that other than object.

163
00:11:53,990 --> 00:12:01,730
But once I have my Bitcoin and I have that stored securely and correctly, like, it doesn't matter what anybody votes, they can't take it from me.

164
00:12:01,850 --> 00:12:10,750
And even more importantly, if that's secured correctly, I can go to the other side of the planet where there are, you know, jurisdictions that are welcoming and happy to have me there.

165
00:12:10,790 --> 00:12:13,510
And I can recover my Bitcoin and I can proceed to use it.

166
00:12:13,510 --> 00:12:35,090
And so it's such a radically important thing because it removes us from this collectivist form of politics that to me, like, it's not even any real form of politics anymore. It's this extremely narrow window that has become part of the structure that most people can't see in any meaningful way.

167
00:12:35,090 --> 00:12:46,330
And that's one of the things why I refer to Bitcoin as depolitical, like capital T, capital P, because it introduces a new form of politics that destroys this old order.

168
00:12:46,890 --> 00:12:57,470
And so I very much sincerely believe that if we had just 10% of Americans today owning Bitcoin and actively using that as their storage of value, we would actually see the collapse of the dollar.

169
00:12:57,470 --> 00:13:05,910
we would see a radical new opportunity for whether it's local jurisdictions, states, or new forms of collectives to come about.

170
00:13:06,350 --> 00:13:12,910
And I do believe that that's ultimately the destiny of the future because, like, if you look at what the dollar is doing and where it's going,

171
00:13:13,070 --> 00:13:16,030
like, we're at the end of the Brenton Woods system.

172
00:13:16,270 --> 00:13:21,230
And the only question is, how is it going to be replaced and how much are people going to suffer through that replacement?

173
00:13:22,490 --> 00:13:23,690
Yeah, absolutely.

174
00:13:23,690 --> 00:13:32,330
And I agree these are the most important questions to be talking about, which is why it's a persistent theme of the podcast of just talking about, you know, what is this transition going to look like?

175
00:13:32,410 --> 00:13:41,430
And how do we ensure that ourselves and our loved ones and as many people as we can possibly get out to go through this transition process and come out the other side even better?

176
00:13:42,010 --> 00:13:49,650
And it's going to take all of us really putting our brains together because it's going to be a huge challenge given the state of things where we're at right now.

177
00:13:49,650 --> 00:13:54,630
what, $37 trillion in debt, wars going on everywhere. Things are just rough right now,

178
00:13:54,670 --> 00:13:58,630
and it's going to take all of us putting our minds together to figure out a good way through this.

179
00:13:59,310 --> 00:14:02,790
I'd love to continue getting even deeper into that. I have a bunch of notes for cool things

180
00:14:02,790 --> 00:14:06,590
we're going to talk about, but before we do, I would love to just hear some of your story. This

181
00:14:06,590 --> 00:14:10,570
is something I always try to include for new episodes of Bitcoiners. I know that everyone

182
00:14:10,570 --> 00:14:15,390
has a good Bitcoin story, how they got into it. I'd love to hear yours. When did your Bitcoin

183
00:14:15,390 --> 00:14:21,310
journey start and how did it bring you to where you are today? It really started kind of at Occupy

184
00:14:21,310 --> 00:14:27,790
Wall Street and I guess this was probably 2012. So Occupy Wall Street had been going on for a while.

185
00:14:28,030 --> 00:14:32,810
Occupy Oakland was a thing. I was participating in it. I identified as like a far left socialist

186
00:14:32,810 --> 00:14:37,850
at the time. I really believed like rah-rah, we're going to go change the world. We just got to elect

187
00:14:37,850 --> 00:14:43,570
the right people and do the right thing and it'll happen. As I watched the movement sort of fall

188
00:14:43,570 --> 00:14:49,250
apart and stumble all over itself. I had a masked anarchist at one point in time be like, hey,

189
00:14:49,870 --> 00:14:53,590
like this Bitcoin thing is really important. You should like look into it. Like this is how

190
00:14:53,590 --> 00:14:57,350
we end Wall Street owning everything. And I was like, yeah, like whatever.

191
00:14:58,970 --> 00:15:04,150
So Occupy Wall Street failed. I was kicked out of university because of like my involvement with

192
00:15:04,150 --> 00:15:08,510
that and the things that I did. And I went into like a really deep depression after that.

193
00:15:08,950 --> 00:15:13,230
And in that, I remember this conversation with a guy, started reading about Bitcoin

194
00:15:13,230 --> 00:15:18,310
there's definitely gears turning and then when i heard about some guys that were doing some

195
00:15:18,310 --> 00:15:23,310
smuggling getting uh stuff in and out of china using bitcoin that's kind of when it first really

196
00:15:23,310 --> 00:15:28,210
clicked and i was like oh there's like something really important here so as i slowly clawed my

197
00:15:28,210 --> 00:15:33,150
way out of depression through like learning more about bitcoin uh it became more and more important

198
00:15:33,150 --> 00:15:37,210
to me and like i was pretty obsessed with it and there wasn't any information at the time it was

199
00:15:37,210 --> 00:15:43,050
really just the bitcoin talk forms uh and so coinbase had recently started as a company i was

200
00:15:43,050 --> 00:15:44,430
So we're in there in San Francisco.

201
00:15:44,430 --> 00:15:47,230
It was just like Brian and Fred at the time.

202
00:15:47,230 --> 00:15:49,290
So I was like harassing them to like give me a job.

203
00:15:49,290 --> 00:15:50,490
And they're like, no, like go away.

204
00:15:50,490 --> 00:15:52,710
Like, you don't, you don't have what we need.

205
00:15:52,710 --> 00:15:54,410
They hired a few more people.

206
00:15:54,410 --> 00:15:55,290
And then eventually they're like,

207
00:15:55,290 --> 00:15:57,070
oh, we have a need for a support manager.

208
00:15:57,070 --> 00:15:58,850
Like maybe you're fit for this.

209
00:15:58,850 --> 00:15:59,970
Didn't get that job either.

210
00:15:59,970 --> 00:16:04,970
But then at the end of, well, I guess the end of Q3 and 2012,

211
00:16:07,030 --> 00:16:10,130
no 2013, Olaf, the first employee at Coinbase,

212
00:16:10,130 --> 00:16:11,290
he reached out to me and he was like,

213
00:16:11,290 --> 00:16:12,870
hey, we need bodies, you want on board?

214
00:16:12,950 --> 00:16:13,770
And I was like, fuck yeah.

215
00:16:14,910 --> 00:16:17,790
And so then that was really kind of my bachelor's degree in Bitcoin,

216
00:16:17,930 --> 00:16:21,150
if you will, working at Coinbase from 2013 to 2017,

217
00:16:21,610 --> 00:16:24,150
just kind of dealing with that disaster.

218
00:16:25,330 --> 00:16:27,290
And then during the block size wars,

219
00:16:27,290 --> 00:16:29,410
it was like really contentious inside.

220
00:16:29,630 --> 00:16:30,670
There was a lot of disagreements.

221
00:16:30,990 --> 00:16:34,870
And I was really surprised to find that I was sort of on this side

222
00:16:34,870 --> 00:16:38,110
with people that didn't want big blocks and that everybody in the company,

223
00:16:38,410 --> 00:16:40,550
not everybody, but a lot of people wanted big blocks

224
00:16:40,550 --> 00:16:43,090
and that they weren't really getting the argument.

225
00:16:43,410 --> 00:16:46,690
So once that was clear that there was going to be a hard fork,

226
00:16:46,810 --> 00:16:48,690
like I put in my resignation right then.

227
00:16:48,750 --> 00:16:54,250
So I was like, I'm not going to fucking deal with a fork doing this bullshit.

228
00:16:54,250 --> 00:16:56,670
Because like, I just knew it was going to be a nightmare on the inside.

229
00:16:57,010 --> 00:17:00,050
And lo and behold, later on, I had a bunch of lawyers reach out to me being like,

230
00:17:00,130 --> 00:17:01,490
were you at Coinbase during this?

231
00:17:01,530 --> 00:17:03,750
And I was like, no, because I knew this shit was going to come up.

232
00:17:03,810 --> 00:17:04,510
So leave me alone.

233
00:17:05,490 --> 00:17:09,370
And at this point, I had met my current co-founder, Jesse.

234
00:17:09,370 --> 00:17:13,670
and we immediately connected really deeply on Bitcoin and philosophy.

235
00:17:14,730 --> 00:17:16,390
And he had really encouraged me.

236
00:17:16,450 --> 00:17:18,910
He was like, I think a lot of your thoughts are really important

237
00:17:18,910 --> 00:17:21,810
and that you've made some really important and interesting links

238
00:17:21,810 --> 00:17:23,430
between philosophy and Bitcoin.

239
00:17:23,750 --> 00:17:25,650
And you start publishing those writings.

240
00:17:25,910 --> 00:17:30,270
So really between 2017 to 2020, I put a lot of those writings out there

241
00:17:30,270 --> 00:17:34,970
and it sort of accumulated enough into a place where a lot of people

242
00:17:34,970 --> 00:17:36,450
encouraged me to make that into a book.

243
00:17:36,450 --> 00:17:41,090
and so I did like a year stint at Unchained, met a lot more people.

244
00:17:41,450 --> 00:17:44,990
For me, that was part of my recovery arc from like working at, you know,

245
00:17:45,070 --> 00:17:47,210
the shitcoin casino that is Coinbase.

246
00:17:47,690 --> 00:17:50,430
Love the guys at Unchained, great product and great people.

247
00:17:51,410 --> 00:17:53,890
And then after that, I was like, yeah, it's time to publish a book.

248
00:17:54,330 --> 00:17:57,090
Published it and just kind of started doing all the podcasts and stuff.

249
00:17:57,090 --> 00:18:01,430
And in all honesty, my hope was always to find other people

250
00:18:01,430 --> 00:18:05,450
that were really interested in sort of the deeper philosophical implications

251
00:18:05,450 --> 00:18:08,610
of Bitcoin cryptography and like a decentralized internet.

252
00:18:09,010 --> 00:18:12,910
But I was kind of surprised to find that like there weren't a ton of people

253
00:18:12,910 --> 00:18:15,750
that had really thought about it very deeply.

254
00:18:16,490 --> 00:18:19,010
And so I'm still sort of on that journey to find other people.

255
00:18:19,130 --> 00:18:23,710
But I can say confidently today that, you know, like the first four years

256
00:18:23,710 --> 00:18:26,810
in my Bitcoin journey, I didn't meet really anybody that cared about that.

257
00:18:26,810 --> 00:18:30,610
And in the last four years of my Bitcoin journey, I've met literally hundreds,

258
00:18:30,830 --> 00:18:33,730
if not thousands of people that that's kind of their primary thing.

259
00:18:33,730 --> 00:18:38,730
So it's pretty incredible to see and feel the progress from like where we're at.

260
00:18:38,830 --> 00:18:44,570
Cause I can say like my, my first four years in Bitcoin were extraordinarily lonely.

261
00:18:44,570 --> 00:18:48,850
Cause like, I didn't know, I didn't know if I was crazy or if the world was crazy.

262
00:18:48,850 --> 00:18:58,130
And like, now I know like the world was definitely crazy and more and more people are coming on board and really actually getting what Bitcoin offers.

263
00:18:58,130 --> 00:19:11,870
There's, you know, not beyond just protecting your savings and wealth, but the real opportunity of what it means that there are now people in places like Costa Rica who probably couldn't get good bank accounts or savings that can now actually access Bitcoin directly.

264
00:19:12,170 --> 00:19:17,170
And when you go down and like zap your local rancher, like that's a true peer-to-peer interaction.

265
00:19:17,330 --> 00:19:18,670
There's nobody in between you two.

266
00:19:18,670 --> 00:19:28,130
And to me, that has such profound ramifications for how it transforms the global financial landscape that it cannot be denied.

267
00:19:30,110 --> 00:19:31,350
Yeah, 100%.

268
00:19:31,350 --> 00:19:36,190
You can see it just changing how people function all over the place.

269
00:19:36,270 --> 00:19:42,550
I know that this is one of the things that you talk about a lot in your work is how Bitcoin changes people.

270
00:19:43,010 --> 00:19:45,270
And you and I both are individual examples.

271
00:19:45,270 --> 00:19:53,010
I love your example of how you were really in a state of depression and just falling into this rabbit hole helps pull you out of that.

272
00:19:53,690 --> 00:19:59,630
And a big part of that, in my opinion, I'd be curious of your thoughts on this, is specifically for men.

273
00:20:00,090 --> 00:20:09,410
Like men need to have a greater purpose to pursue in order to really feel fulfilled and happy and like continue ascending in our lives even more than women do.

274
00:20:09,410 --> 00:20:18,850
And for you, like, I mean, Bitcoin is perfect for that because it pulls you through this journey of knowledge and history and economics and all these important world topics.

275
00:20:19,330 --> 00:20:20,130
It teaches you things.

276
00:20:20,190 --> 00:20:25,810
It teaches you things you relied to about, which gives you a little bit of inner fire to fight back and create a better world.

277
00:20:26,330 --> 00:20:35,170
Like, would you say that this is like especially something that like everyone needs to go learn about just for the sake of, you know, their own mental well-being?

278
00:20:36,290 --> 00:20:36,890
Oh, absolutely.

279
00:20:36,890 --> 00:20:48,810
Like the sort of narrative and story arc that you get to go through kind of going on your own intellectual hero's journey of discovering what do you really think?

280
00:20:48,930 --> 00:20:50,050
What are really your opinions?

281
00:20:50,510 --> 00:20:59,330
Like one of the troubling things I had to deal with was in sort of trying to overcome modern monetary theory and understand Austrian economics.

282
00:20:59,330 --> 00:21:08,490
Like I really had to understand, like, there's a lot of really feel-good ideas that I have that just don't actually operate on any economic principles.

283
00:21:08,890 --> 00:21:11,650
And like, why did I feel bad about that?

284
00:21:11,710 --> 00:21:15,490
And like the continual process of uncovering towards that.

285
00:21:15,490 --> 00:21:37,430
But also, I think the bigger one for me was really, I felt so nihilistic when I first discovered Bitcoin that the true possibility of there being something I could save for myself, of there being an answer for us to go beyond the sort of systematic exploitation we all have to face, felt really impossible.

286
00:21:37,430 --> 00:21:49,150
And as I dug deeper and deeper into Bitcoin, there was almost this question of like, is this really possible? Like, could this truly be the thing that it's promising? Like, at what point am I going to get rugged in this narrative?

287
00:21:49,150 --> 00:22:08,230
And as I dug deeper and deeper and deeper, I found each successive question took me deeper on that intellectual journey until I finally found myself like in the belly of the beast at the deepest one of like, is it possible for me to change my life and my circumstances because of what Bitcoin is?

288
00:22:08,230 --> 00:22:12,950
and for me that's kind of when i had my own transcendental awakening where i was like

289
00:22:12,950 --> 00:22:17,990
you know what like and i had an interesting conversation with my ex-partner about this

290
00:22:17,990 --> 00:22:22,490
of i i really communicated all of my own uncertainty and fear and doubt about it and

291
00:22:22,490 --> 00:22:27,890
she was like look she was like i can't tell you what you have to do in any of this she was like i

292
00:22:27,890 --> 00:22:34,250
can tell you if you don't pursue this and it does the stuff you work like you'll like you'll regret

293
00:22:34,250 --> 00:22:40,570
it with all of your being she was like if you do pursue it uh and it doesn't work out like you

294
00:22:40,570 --> 00:22:46,650
shot for it it failed and you like know that and you can put it away and so with that i was like

295
00:22:46,650 --> 00:22:51,930
all right let's do it and that was really the decision that changed my life because

296
00:22:53,050 --> 00:23:11,260
this is when i really decided like i gonna go all in on bitcoin i know everybody thinks that this is crazy and you know like i like when my mom found out i was doing this she like pulled me aside She like I really concerned about you I think that a really terrible idea Like you never going to get this money back It all going to go to zero And I was like you are wrong

297
00:23:11,260 --> 00:23:32,040
And it turns out that I was right. And it's pretty shocking to me how many times that conversation came up for me over the last decade. Like even when I'd been working at Coinbase for a few years, a really great friend from college who very successful, intelligent individual, you know, graduated top tier Ivy League schools.

298
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:38,120
you know he came to me in the same conversation he was like look man he was like and this is why

299
00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:41,700
we're not friends anymore like in that conversation he was like look he's like i'm gonna be blunt with

300
00:23:41,700 --> 00:23:47,440
you he's like i'm smarter than you eric like i know how this works like like sell out now put it

301
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,980
on the stock market like you'll get your eight percent gains like you should be happy with that

302
00:23:51,980 --> 00:23:57,900
and i was like look i was like i know what you believe you know and i'm telling you right now

303
00:23:57,900 --> 00:24:04,200
like you're wrong you're totally wrong and when you look at the price of bitcoin and it's at five

304
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:09,780
thousand ten thousand twenty thousand dollars down the line you're gonna go god damn it eric was right

305
00:24:09,780 --> 00:24:14,560
and it was like that'll never happen and i was like all right man well like you do you i hope it

306
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:21,060
works you know and while we haven't talked since then i hope that that's a truism that if we do

307
00:24:21,060 --> 00:24:27,180
encounter each other he'd be gracious enough to apologize and don't expect that but that was also

308
00:24:27,180 --> 00:24:33,520
a really valuable lesson for me in all of this because I didn't have strong beliefs for myself

309
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,1000
or about myself before Bitcoin. And with each kind of successive round of this, it's really

310
00:24:37,1000 --> 00:24:45,960
reinforced for me that I do know what I'm talking about and my own beliefs here. And that it's really

311
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:51,020
easy for us to get contorted into other people's belief systems. And it's not just Bitcoin,

312
00:24:51,120 --> 00:24:56,220
it's kind of across the board. And because of my exposure to Bitcoin, though, I've really defined

313
00:24:56,220 --> 00:25:01,940
myself as an iconoclast that doesn't fit well into kind of any box. And so like trying to talk with

314
00:25:01,940 --> 00:25:07,380
politics, like people find me a weird amalgam, because like, you know, like, I have a lot of

315
00:25:07,380 --> 00:25:12,360
socially liberal values in particular ways, but also like, I have some very conservative values,

316
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:17,140
you know, a lot of people can't make sense of how these things work. And that's all just because to

317
00:25:17,140 --> 00:25:23,320
me, like, I don't have a loyalty to a group or an ideology, but it's really to like what my truth

318
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,420
is and the pursuit of that for me and what's the best for my life.

319
00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:33,800
And I think Bitcoin teaches us that because, well, it's different today, but for a long

320
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,580
time, there weren't very strong advocates, particularly on the financial and economic

321
00:25:37,580 --> 00:25:37,1000
side.

322
00:25:38,100 --> 00:25:42,320
And it was difficult to really be able to look at everything and determine for yourself

323
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:43,040
and go, you know what?

324
00:25:43,500 --> 00:25:45,1000
I know other people say it's wrong, but I've done my work.

325
00:25:45,1000 --> 00:25:51,220
And what I really understand about this, it shows that it's a much better storage of value

326
00:25:51,220 --> 00:25:53,720
in the form of money than anything else that's been offered.

327
00:25:54,060 --> 00:25:56,020
So I'm going to make my choice and go with that.

328
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:01,340
Yeah, and this is one of the things that Bitcoiners really can come together on.

329
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,180
And when you go to any meetup or conference with other Bitcoiners,

330
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,360
you can very quickly find that you are eye-to-eye on this,

331
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,480
which is we've all had those experiences of our friends and family

332
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,220
sitting us down and just saying, we're so concerned about you.

333
00:26:14,220 --> 00:26:17,400
You're just obsessed with this orange coin and we don't know what to do.

334
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:23,060
or any of the other tangential rabbit holes that Bitcoin will inevitably take you through,

335
00:26:23,300 --> 00:26:30,200
you know, diet, food, politics, war, like all these different things that Bitcoin rewires your brain on

336
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,1000
once you have that fundamental understanding of how fiat money works and how it corrupts everything.

337
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,460
You know, personally, I cannot keep my mouth shut about anything.

338
00:26:39,460 --> 00:26:43,080
So I'm always just spewing like shotgun everywhere I go.

339
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,180
And I've definitely lost friendships over this.

340
00:26:46,180 --> 00:26:47,1000
And that's just the price that we pay.

341
00:26:48,100 --> 00:26:56,700
But when I go and find some Bitcoiners, it's just I feel so warm and fuzzy inside because I know that these people have done that same first principles research.

342
00:26:56,700 --> 00:27:01,880
They put in a proof of work themselves and they've tanked through the friends and family calling them crazy also.

343
00:27:02,580 --> 00:27:13,420
And this is why it's just so fun to be around these people and why I'm so excited for just these communities continuing to flourish around Bitcoin, not just, you know, all about Bitcoin itself.

344
00:27:13,420 --> 00:27:15,260
But eventually, like things that branch out from that.

345
00:27:15,260 --> 00:27:24,100
Like a lot of people talking about homesteading and people getting more into like creating really good food and creating Citadel communities like Bitcoin or communities that care about other things.

346
00:27:24,100 --> 00:27:27,320
But they have that foundation of Bitcoin that they've all been through together.

347
00:27:27,420 --> 00:27:34,300
And they know that this will be the foundational building block to create that future they want, no matter which direction it may go.

348
00:27:34,300 --> 00:27:52,840
Well, it's funny because like we say, it's Bitcoin, but it's really about like recovering from like the fiat nihilism virus and going into like a low time preference worldview that happens also be one that tends to like unify all of these things.

349
00:27:52,840 --> 00:28:06,280
And so Bitcoin just becomes this really great qualifier. And it's just, it's really powerful and amazing because I can see repeatedly how that form of knowledge and understanding really shifts things.

350
00:28:07,860 --> 00:28:18,920
And like one of the more interesting ones of that, because like I'm working out here in San Francisco at the Presidio, at a Bitcoin Presidio, and there's like a lot of prominent Bitcoiners here, but they're very much on the technical side.

351
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:27,280
And I find it funny that there's this interesting divergence between sort of the technical Bitcoiners and the social Bitcoiners.

352
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:33,160
And like the social Bitcoiners are the ones that really acknowledge kind of all of these fields that we've talked about,

353
00:28:33,260 --> 00:28:39,800
whereas the technical guys can kind of keep themselves tucked more tightly and reserved kind of away from the greater social community.

354
00:28:39,800 --> 00:29:07,200
And I think part of the product is, is that like having these sort of greater dialogues, it's almost like a taboo for them because like now you start dealing with a much greater social ideology of like, and I think part of this is for their own like protection, like unintentionally, sort of unconsciously is that like if they start dealing with a lot of these greater questions of that, like Bitcoin is a profound political vehicle.

355
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:15,120
like that sort of imparts a very real existentialism that I think some of them with the technical work that they're doing,

356
00:29:15,220 --> 00:29:18,140
they would almost be like, whoa, like this is too big for me.

357
00:29:18,540 --> 00:29:23,880
So it's just really interesting being in the office in that like I find I don't want to say it's avoidant,

358
00:29:23,940 --> 00:29:29,140
but there's almost like a sheepishness of the sort of bluntness that I bring to conversations.

359
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,560
Because like one thing that I try to hit people with is I'm like, I'm like, why Bitcoin?

360
00:29:33,1000 --> 00:29:35,280
Like, you're clearly brilliant.

361
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:40,920
Like you could be across the way working with the Web3 guys on some shitcoin project and you're not.

362
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:41,880
Like, why?

363
00:29:42,540 --> 00:29:45,740
And it's kind of interesting because they like stumble and fumble with it a lot.

364
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,540
And eventually they're like, well, like, you know, it's like really important.

365
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:49,800
It's like, well, yeah, but why?

366
00:29:49,940 --> 00:29:51,140
Like shitcoin could be important.

367
00:29:51,300 --> 00:29:52,440
I'm like, well, no, it couldn't.

368
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:57,620
And like, it's kind of interesting because like they've never really had the opportunity to like,

369
00:29:57,620 --> 00:30:05,020
like socially reason through why Bitcoin is so important as much as like sort of the technical

370
00:30:05,020 --> 00:30:09,660
details of it. And it's pretty beautiful too, because a lot of times at the end, there feels

371
00:30:09,660 --> 00:30:14,740
like a much stronger solidarity amongst us where I'm like, okay, cool. Like I get that, like, you're

372
00:30:14,740 --> 00:30:19,420
totally down for the cause. You just don't speak about it because like, that's not really what you

373
00:30:19,420 --> 00:30:27,500
do. I love that phrase you threw out there, the escaping fiat nihilism. I think that's such a

374
00:30:27,500 --> 00:30:32,620
great topic that we can always talk about. And I brought that up with my second episode with

375
00:30:32,620 --> 00:30:38,280
Brandon Quinton. We talked about this, how this incoming generation, the Gen Z and Gen Alpha,

376
00:30:39,180 --> 00:30:43,360
we're seeing it all. I mean, we already saw this some in the millennials as well,

377
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:49,060
but it's even worse for Gen Z is these people are just sort of being born into this state of

378
00:30:49,060 --> 00:30:52,880
existential dread. Like it seems like everything's going wrong everywhere.

379
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,960
where there's no opportunity for them to rise in the world,

380
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,180
climate change is going to come kill them,

381
00:30:58,520 --> 00:30:59,620
like there's viruses everywhere,

382
00:30:59,940 --> 00:31:02,080
there's no economic opportunity, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

383
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:09,460
What would be your answer on why the people of Fiat World are so nihilistic?

384
00:31:09,460 --> 00:31:13,840
And is this an intentional psychological operation by the powers that be

385
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,480
who quite like the population to be in a physically, mentally,

386
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,220
and spiritually suppressed state?

387
00:31:18,220 --> 00:31:27,720
um that's a hard one to answer because like on some level there isn't an intentionality about it

388
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:33,700
but it's also like the that intentionality is created from the misaligned incentives and so

389
00:31:33,700 --> 00:31:40,580
like uh i'm a big fan of that like essentially what happened at the beginning of the 20th century

390
00:31:40,580 --> 00:31:46,720
was like the start of i like to call it an inverted eugenics project because like it's about

391
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:52,759
you need to have these highly controlled populations and as you sort of narrowed the

392
00:31:52,759 --> 00:31:57,500
scope more and more um i forgot where i read it but there was like a really great quote that was

393
00:31:57,500 --> 00:32:03,680
something to the effect of that like in 1920 like most americans had never met anyone who had worked

394
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:08,020
for the government like that was just something that didn't happen and it was because there wasn't

395
00:32:08,020 --> 00:32:11,160
a fiat money to support the federal government like the federal government just had to be

396
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:16,759
magnitude smaller. But then between World War I and World War II, which to me, like,

397
00:32:17,100 --> 00:32:23,360
World War I was the initiation of the end of law. And the end of World War II was like the

398
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:30,440
complete destruction of law entirely. Because like, you get into this logical problem of like,

399
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,1000
where like, so the law is the thing that's supposed to protect us. But then when nation

400
00:32:34,1000 --> 00:32:40,440
states go at each other and make war, and they mechanize that war, and they escalate that war

401
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:45,800
in such a way that like they make essentially these gigantic killing machines like how do we

402
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:51,320
justify the existence of that thing uh and like that that was a question that never got answered

403
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,900
and then we just went into full bore statism we went into the cold war where it was like well

404
00:32:55,900 --> 00:33:01,780
we're in this perpetual war economy forever and within that it was like we have these populations

405
00:33:01,780 --> 00:33:07,880
we have to control like let's vaccinate all of them to the greatest degree and like you know i

406
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:13,560
think part of that was to implement a project not only of eugenics of actually intentionally

407
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:18,340
harming people but like i also think like it was part of a much wider experiment of like

408
00:33:18,340 --> 00:33:22,900
hey we're just going to open up the entire population to perform various medical experiments

409
00:33:22,900 --> 00:33:29,060
on them to see where these things go uh and like i don't think that that was all part of a hugely

410
00:33:29,060 --> 00:33:33,360
harmful thing i think a lot of people thought it was really positive in the same way that a lot of

411
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:38,220
people have that same positive view of like, everybody should get vaccinated today. Why would

412
00:33:38,220 --> 00:33:42,200
you ever doubt the science? Like, it's very clear that that science helps. And it's like, well, like,

413
00:33:43,259 --> 00:33:48,340
what I'm calling science and what you call science are like different things. And like,

414
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,660
it's very problematic if we don't have a root of like what the quote science means.

415
00:33:53,1000 --> 00:33:58,560
But then that's been just a long chain of interactions that like the incentives have

416
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:05,340
gotten increasingly misincentivized and it's also had us arrive at like intergenerational problems

417
00:34:05,340 --> 00:34:11,700
of where like you know like uh like my grandfather fought in world war ii he was highly traumatized

418
00:34:11,700 --> 00:34:18,560
by it as most men because like this wasn't like classic ancient war in any way like it was just

419
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:23,140
like route fucking murdering and so like he was deeply traumatized because he had like stabbed

420
00:34:23,140 --> 00:34:43,549
several japanese men to death that tried to come into his camp at night and he was the thing that traumatized him so much and he was just always like I don know these people like we never had an encounter with each other and i just had to fucking kill them and furthermore like it wasn like we were meeting in the battleground across from each other like as men in ancient war

421
00:34:43,549 --> 00:34:47,569
but like i just had like fucking stabbed these dudes in the back when they came into my tent

422
00:34:47,569 --> 00:34:54,169
and so like i think all of these things align to design for this totally nihilistic society where

423
00:34:54,169 --> 00:34:59,549
like now when a kid's born it's like you've inherited several generations of trauma you've

424
00:34:59,549 --> 00:35:05,129
inherited several generations of that nihilism uh there's like a very strong and powerful dialogue

425
00:35:05,129 --> 00:35:13,010
of uh it's like this really kind of fucked up individualism because like it's an individualism

426
00:35:13,010 --> 00:35:18,869
that's defined about you being homogenized in society and like fitting in that as like a single

427
00:35:18,869 --> 00:35:24,069
good little citizen unit and so i think it's like it's all really really alarming and

428
00:35:24,069 --> 00:35:29,789
troubling and difficult for most people. And so for me, if I'm trying to like get somebody out of

429
00:35:29,789 --> 00:35:35,289
that, like I'm very much in line with Morpheus about like, most people should never be unplugged.

430
00:35:35,289 --> 00:35:39,849
Like it's, it's fucking dangerous for them. And it's dangerous for you. And if you do unplug them,

431
00:35:39,849 --> 00:35:46,749
like though, they will like flip the fuck out. And so like most people should stay in this system,

432
00:35:46,749 --> 00:35:51,189
and it would be dangerous to try to liberate them from it. And it doesn't mean that that isn't

433
00:35:51,189 --> 00:35:55,269
a goal but it's the same way as like if i want to save all the cows and i tear down all the fences

434
00:35:55,269 --> 00:36:02,069
and i'm like go be free cows like most of them will die with that being said uh like i'm really

435
00:36:02,069 --> 00:36:07,749
interested in the small groups of people that can actually handle liberation and so for me like this

436
00:36:07,749 --> 00:36:13,510
is one of the reasons i love psychedelics so much because like that does open a doorway to a radical

437
00:36:13,510 --> 00:36:19,189
new perception of what reality is and its possibilities and it also contains the possibility

438
00:36:19,189 --> 00:36:23,990
of like a true transcendental awakening of understanding like there is something much

439
00:36:23,990 --> 00:36:28,510
greater and bigger here and we can find that but it's also something that like it's only

440
00:36:28,510 --> 00:36:34,329
through our own empowered agency that that discovery can be made and i think a lot of people

441
00:36:34,329 --> 00:36:40,089
who seek that should be entitled to it but like it it has to be really self-compelled like it's not

442
00:36:40,089 --> 00:36:44,669
me just shoving acid down the throat of my uncle who wants to watch sports all day like that's

443
00:36:44,669 --> 00:36:51,789
going to end bad for everybody. Yeah. Yeah. True. One of the words that you threw out there,

444
00:36:51,909 --> 00:36:57,929
two of the words rather, are collectivism and individualism. And I circled these because I know

445
00:36:57,929 --> 00:37:02,109
you've done podcasts with Robert Breedlove in the past. And I'm remembering back on my episode I did

446
00:37:02,109 --> 00:37:10,089
with him a while back was his basic concept that we're not really in a Republican versus Democrat

447
00:37:10,089 --> 00:37:15,249
political debate right now. It's more so collectivism versus individualism is really the bigger

448
00:37:15,249 --> 00:37:19,849
political battle going on where we're deciding how we're going to live our lives and

449
00:37:19,849 --> 00:37:23,089
build the future. Would you agree with this? And how would you elaborate on that?

450
00:37:24,609 --> 00:37:30,409
I would agree with it. And my elaboration on it would be like, it's whether or not any forms of

451
00:37:30,409 --> 00:37:39,329
individualism do exist. And like, I think like to me, democracy is just like, it's, it's a false

452
00:37:39,329 --> 00:37:46,289
collectivized version of individuality. And like, that's one of the things I adore about both Bitcoin

453
00:37:46,289 --> 00:37:51,929
and cryptography is like, I'm not, I'm not asking for permission around my individuality here. Like

454
00:37:51,929 --> 00:37:58,569
I am imposing that into the world. And I think that's, that's sadly one of the things that a lot

455
00:37:58,569 --> 00:38:04,589
of people really don't understand about our form of government is that like, the constitution isn't

456
00:38:04,589 --> 00:38:09,789
a document that makes and defines what our government is. It's a document that's designed

457
00:38:09,789 --> 00:38:18,450
to inherently restrict and wall off certain segments of life from never to being a sacrosanct

458
00:38:18,450 --> 00:38:23,490
to any government intervention. And like, that's been long lost from a long time ago.

459
00:38:24,069 --> 00:38:30,429
And so like, I think we're in such a highly collectivist mode of thinking at this point

460
00:38:30,429 --> 00:38:37,289
in time that like that that like is the eugenics project itself and like i i think in the same way

461
00:38:37,289 --> 00:38:43,629
like if i could pluck up a population of uh you know like a germanic tribe from the 17th century

462
00:38:43,629 --> 00:38:48,549
and like plop them down in america there would be a lot of stuff that they would be like what the

463
00:38:48,549 --> 00:38:53,389
fuck are you doing like get the fuck away from me like like you don't get to tell me how i raise my

464
00:38:53,389 --> 00:38:59,769
animals how i slaughter them what i do sell what i don't sell uh like i why do i need a permit to

465
00:38:59,769 --> 00:39:07,049
cut somebody's hair like this seems insane uh and to me like that's sort of the uh forms of

466
00:39:07,049 --> 00:39:15,309
disciplinary uh indoctrination that we've had is that a lot of people believe that they're

467
00:39:15,309 --> 00:39:22,169
like the education system for example like people people sincerely believe like if you don't send

468
00:39:22,169 --> 00:39:27,649
your kids to school that's an abusive thing and they'll they'll fall behind and it's like what are

469
00:39:27,649 --> 00:39:34,129
like what do any of these things even mean like fall behind fall behind what you know um and i

470
00:39:34,129 --> 00:39:38,549
think that it's really important because like this is these are all the forms of collectivism

471
00:39:38,549 --> 00:39:44,329
that are these really powerful ways to control people uh to where like they can't even see that

472
00:39:44,329 --> 00:39:49,149
like you don't have to send your kids to school you don't have to vaccinate them like you don't

473
00:39:49,149 --> 00:39:54,749
have to register them for birth like turns out that like life itself is actually a process that

474
00:39:54,749 --> 00:40:02,029
happens without the medical establishment like fucking crazy and like uh my ex-partner was really

475
00:40:02,029 --> 00:40:06,589
into the idea of free birthing which is kind of like a step beyond uh just like a home birth but

476
00:40:06,589 --> 00:40:12,970
it's where like you just like have the kid by yourself no medical people in all at all like

477
00:40:12,970 --> 00:40:17,470
even your partner is going to stand outside the door and it's just like you in a dark cave like

478
00:40:17,470 --> 00:40:24,649
having a baby just like other animals would and like most people find that so radical and so

479
00:40:24,649 --> 00:40:31,309
threatening and so uh like diabolical that like most people freak out about it and they're like

480
00:40:31,309 --> 00:40:35,409
how could you do that like it's dangerous for her it's dangerous for the baby and it's like

481
00:40:35,409 --> 00:40:40,649
motherfucker like that like this is the way that they control you is that they have made you into

482
00:40:40,649 --> 00:40:47,149
such a cucked pussy little bitch that the moment that any form of danger comes up you're like oh

483
00:40:47,149 --> 00:40:54,549
god like jesus we're all gonna die and it's like that's what life is and like that's why a woman

484
00:40:54,549 --> 00:40:59,229
giving birth to life was such a sacred thing as like there is something fucking at stake in it

485
00:40:59,229 --> 00:41:05,369
and it's our own life and it's the very real danger of what it means to live and to produce

486
00:41:05,369 --> 00:41:11,709
life and to participate that as a meaningful actor and like through the medicalization not

487
00:41:11,709 --> 00:41:17,569
only of birth but of health itself there's very little capacity for self-empowerment and agency

488
00:41:17,569 --> 00:41:23,209
against that and that's like i want to be clear like that's because it is so easy and it is really

489
00:41:23,209 --> 00:41:27,409
comfortable. And we have been conditioned to have permanent safety around us at all times.

490
00:41:27,809 --> 00:41:32,389
But the truth of reality is, is that none of that's actually real. That's all part of a false

491
00:41:32,389 --> 00:41:37,529
perspective that's been given through replacing God with the state. And so long as you believe

492
00:41:37,529 --> 00:41:42,269
that the state is this magical God that's going to make you safe and healthy and care for you and

493
00:41:42,269 --> 00:41:48,249
give you love, we're going to continue to have this, frankly, like this sort of nihilistic

494
00:41:48,249 --> 00:41:53,490
nightmare. And it's because people sincerely believe that the state is God. And it's only

495
00:41:53,490 --> 00:41:57,729
once that perspective has been defeated that like a new form of life is produced.

496
00:41:59,089 --> 00:42:04,990
Yeah. And I love that framework that having responsibility and some risk around

497
00:42:04,990 --> 00:42:11,249
decisions and actions and certain things in life is a good thing that helps really sharpen people

498
00:42:11,249 --> 00:42:17,669
and make people stronger. And I'll bring back another former guest I had on. I know you've,

499
00:42:17,669 --> 00:42:22,089
you know, also connected with is Alex Svetsky. He's done a lot of work writing about how Bitcoin

500
00:42:22,089 --> 00:42:27,569
is responsibility, go up technology, how, you know, Bitcoin is sort of a forcing function for

501
00:42:27,569 --> 00:42:32,529
responsibility, not only on, you know, the governments and the bankers and all these

502
00:42:32,529 --> 00:42:37,149
people who will suddenly, you know, not be able to print fiat anymore. And they'll be forced into

503
00:42:37,149 --> 00:42:41,829
being responsible. And who knows how that could, you know, cause to a cascade of effects where

504
00:42:41,829 --> 00:42:47,549
it could be their demise um what are your thoughts on this concept of bitcoin being

505
00:42:47,549 --> 00:42:53,309
a responsibility forcing function and how will that change the current landscape we're looking

506
00:42:53,309 --> 00:43:00,029
at in the world today yeah i well i think that the greatest part is is that it makes us realize that

507
00:43:00,029 --> 00:43:05,729
uh like giving responsibility of like the actual economic means to life itself to the government

508
00:43:05,729 --> 00:43:11,749
has not only been dangerous and horrifying but like it's like advanced this machinery of war

509
00:43:11,749 --> 00:43:19,569
like unequivocally greater and faster and beyond any means that any humans have had access to before.

510
00:43:19,809 --> 00:43:25,749
I mean, like if you look at, like a good example is like if you look at the Armenian genocide

511
00:43:25,749 --> 00:43:28,069
that was carried out at the end of the Ottoman Empire,

512
00:43:28,249 --> 00:43:32,869
like that was the most effective genocide that had been carried out at that point in time.

513
00:43:33,569 --> 00:43:38,689
And that even pales in comparison to the forms of technology that we can use to murder people.

514
00:43:38,689 --> 00:43:44,409
Just look at how efficient the Khmer Rouge was at fucking murdering a quarter of the population of Cambodia.

515
00:43:44,669 --> 00:43:48,689
Like the state is this really, really dangerous apparatus.

516
00:43:49,669 --> 00:43:56,229
And the only reason it's so dangerous is because the way that we've relegated the totality of responsibility to life into them.

517
00:43:56,349 --> 00:44:02,669
And that we're like, hey, you can actually have responsibility over life and death of individuals because you are the state.

518
00:44:02,929 --> 00:44:05,889
And like that's been such an insane and dangerous thing.

519
00:44:06,309 --> 00:44:08,450
But like we have this across life everywhere.

520
00:44:08,450 --> 00:44:11,149
Like education is the place that I find it the most alarming.

521
00:44:11,809 --> 00:44:14,249
Like both of my kids are homeschooled.

522
00:44:14,290 --> 00:44:15,189
I'm really proud of how they do.

523
00:44:15,290 --> 00:44:19,249
Like my son, he does math, you know, he's under 10.

524
00:44:19,349 --> 00:44:22,249
He does math at, you know, like a 10th grade level.

525
00:44:22,249 --> 00:44:28,509
He reads at like a 10th grade level, despite the fact that, you know, he's several times under that.

526
00:44:28,569 --> 00:44:31,450
And I still have people coming to me being like, oh, he's going to fall behind.

527
00:44:31,569 --> 00:44:33,209
Like, how is he going to know anything?

528
00:44:33,209 --> 00:44:48,889
And I'm like, why do you think that him sitting in a chair in front of somebody who, frankly, is probably dumber than him for most of his day and being forced to believe that this person has information that he needs is like a healthy perspective?

529
00:44:49,909 --> 00:44:51,629
And I never get good answers for that.

530
00:44:51,669 --> 00:44:53,450
But like we see this across the board.

531
00:44:53,450 --> 00:45:00,409
And so everywhere where we've relegated responsibility away from us, because also like this is saying like, hey, I don't actually need to raise my kids.

532
00:45:00,409 --> 00:45:10,569
I can send them to a strange pink haired lady out, you know, in our community who's going to teach him stuff like he should hate himself because he's white.

533
00:45:10,669 --> 00:45:13,829
And that means that he was part of an impressive structure that created slavery.

534
00:45:14,149 --> 00:45:17,389
Like, is that really a value that I have?

535
00:45:17,409 --> 00:45:21,749
And is it responsible for me to relegate that somewhere else outside of me?

536
00:45:21,749 --> 00:45:40,849
And so I think Bitcoin sort of helps return a lot of these ideas to us because we start to think about like, okay, like, why am I sending my kid to this institution that's teaching him that like me owning Bitcoin makes me an evil far right fascist that wants to set fire to the world and doesn't care about the environment?

537
00:45:40,849 --> 00:45:43,409
And is any of that true? No.

538
00:45:43,790 --> 00:45:48,569
But that is part of the process of what happens when we relegate responsibility outside of us,

539
00:45:48,569 --> 00:45:52,669
is that we give responsibility to people who may not have our best interests at heart.

540
00:45:53,049 --> 00:45:55,809
And that's a lot of the story of our society today.

541
00:45:55,970 --> 00:45:59,049
And I think that's part of why people find Bitcoin so empowering,

542
00:45:59,049 --> 00:46:04,169
because reclaiming that responsibility in a way that nobody can take from you

543
00:46:04,199 --> 00:46:09,759
is deeply empowering. And that's really what responsibility is about, is about empowerment.

544
00:46:09,759 --> 00:46:15,259
Because if I can't take responsibility for something, I can't be empowered around it.

545
00:46:15,479 --> 00:46:20,639
But the moment that I do take responsibility for it, it means I am empowered around it and I have

546
00:46:20,639 --> 00:46:25,299
a choice that I can make around it. And so I think when people finally get that with money and they

547
00:46:25,299 --> 00:46:29,899
go, whoa, I'm empowered here, they go, I can also be empowered with my health in a different way.

548
00:46:29,899 --> 00:46:33,019
I can be empowered with my education in a different way.

549
00:46:33,139 --> 00:46:35,819
I can be empowered with my nutrition in a different way.

550
00:46:35,939 --> 00:46:43,439
And that becomes a self-fulfilling thing where he realizes like, oh, like this is this huge thing in my life that I was missing.

551
00:46:43,819 --> 00:46:51,339
And then I think one of the most important pieces of that is finally you go, maybe there is something important about this reality.

552
00:46:51,339 --> 00:46:57,519
maybe me loving myself and my family and connecting to this higher purpose and responsibility of

553
00:46:57,519 --> 00:47:02,399
what does it mean that we could change the future together by taking responsibility rather than

554
00:47:02,399 --> 00:47:06,519
telling the state to do it. And I think that's sort of the coalescing that we're watching of

555
00:47:06,519 --> 00:47:11,719
all Bitcoiners is realizing like, we can actually take responsibility for the future that all of

556
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:16,839
humanity is going to inherit. But that's only once we've made the decision that we actually

557
00:47:16,839 --> 00:47:20,579
will be responsible for it, as opposed to relegating it outside of us.

558
00:47:21,339 --> 00:47:30,099
Yeah, and taking on the negatives of that, too, you know, of the risk of, you know, something as simple as doing a Bitcoin transaction wrong, you lose your Bitcoin.

559
00:47:30,359 --> 00:47:33,859
And there's no customer service department for Bitcoin like there is for the bank.

560
00:47:33,899 --> 00:47:37,699
And that's like the first step of you're on your own now, kid, like go figure it out.

561
00:47:38,159 --> 00:47:40,439
Don't make mistakes. Be careful when you do things.

562
00:47:40,839 --> 00:47:43,579
And, you know, there isn't always going to be a backup plan.

563
00:47:43,579 --> 00:47:51,339
I think that that is sort of bringing this, you know, tribal feeling we all have ourselves of just having some risk in our lives again.

564
00:47:51,339 --> 00:47:56,999
Because like you said, the state has really created this environment where it feels like there's always a backup plan.

565
00:47:57,079 --> 00:48:01,239
There's always a daddy there to save you when really they're not there to save you.

566
00:48:01,299 --> 00:48:06,839
They're there to like siphon your energy in some way, whether it be through inflation or something else because you're paying for it.

567
00:48:06,959 --> 00:48:08,699
And it's not consensual.

568
00:48:08,699 --> 00:48:14,019
Like it's just there because they said so and not because you actually requested it or because anyone actually wanted it.

569
00:48:14,579 --> 00:48:16,199
And this is how it describes.

570
00:48:16,299 --> 00:48:22,119
You can describe so many of the different government services that we get now is these are just things that are because they said so.

571
00:48:22,499 --> 00:48:23,259
You have no choice.

572
00:48:23,339 --> 00:48:23,859
You have to do it.

573
00:48:23,859 --> 00:48:24,759
You have to pay your taxes.

574
00:48:25,299 --> 00:48:31,379
And all this stuff is just forced on people, even though they don't think of it as being forced just because they were born into it.

575
00:48:31,979 --> 00:48:38,359
But it's like no one asked, hey, do you want to pay taxes to go like send another bazillion bombs over the Middle East?

576
00:48:38,359 --> 00:48:40,939
I don't really want to do that, but it doesn't matter. We're doing it anyway.

577
00:48:41,879 --> 00:48:58,839
And well, and it's sad also like how much people like being here in the heart of the liberal Bay Area, like I find it truly alarming and terrifying how much people are like, how dare evil Elon Musk cut all of the funding to USAID.

578
00:48:59,039 --> 00:49:07,019
And it's like, well, look, so so like, do you think we shouldn't pay taxes? And they're like, yeah, maybe we shouldn't pay taxes.

579
00:49:07,019 --> 00:49:16,359
And I'm like, fuck yeah, like, get on board. Like, let's not pay any more taxes. And like, we don't have to worry about wars or anything else. And like, hang on. Is that really what we want? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, it is.

580
00:49:16,359 --> 00:49:22,579
beautiful but I just find it you know like it's it's really sad to me because I don't think people

581
00:49:22,579 --> 00:49:29,979
really actually understand that like uh this world where we're like not paying taxes and people are

582
00:49:29,979 --> 00:49:34,319
self-sovereign and that we have a smaller government like this isn't some like insane

583
00:49:34,319 --> 00:49:39,019
shit show where like people are just getting shot and everything's on fire like it's actually like

584
00:49:39,019 --> 00:49:43,619
a pretty utopian world that's like pretty great like the big things that like don't function really

585
00:49:43,619 --> 00:49:50,059
well anymore is that like the war machine can't finance itself and so like and again like we can

586
00:49:50,059 --> 00:49:54,659
totally have war but it's stuff that like there has to actually be like real purview over it like

587
00:49:54,659 --> 00:50:00,139
you know the house of representatives actually has to like vote to finance the war and that like we

588
00:50:00,139 --> 00:50:05,419
actually tether the government back to like some meaningful responsibility towards like its actual

589
00:50:05,419 --> 00:50:11,419
ethical creation of that like we have purview over this limited amount of money that like we

590
00:50:11,419 --> 00:50:16,179
get from our citizens because like they willingly paid that as a tax so they could get their roads

591
00:50:16,179 --> 00:50:23,039
and other bullshit right now like that's just a completely unhinged irresponsible process and i

592
00:50:23,039 --> 00:50:29,759
think that's why and again i find it crazy that like i i don't find what elon musk is doing is

593
00:50:29,759 --> 00:50:35,459
political like it to me like this like if you have a business you like audit it and you go whoa like

594
00:50:35,459 --> 00:50:40,539
it turns out like we don't need to buy 30 000 reams of paper in fact like we only need three

595
00:50:40,539 --> 00:50:45,799
reams of paper. Like, let's send the others back. Like, we like save some money. Isn't that great?

596
00:50:46,479 --> 00:50:51,099
But like, somehow this is political now. And it's just, it's pretty wacky to me because it's like,

597
00:50:51,159 --> 00:50:56,439
I thought we wanted our government to actually work in a meaningful way, but I don't know,

598
00:50:56,539 --> 00:51:00,799
everything gets politicized in the day and age that we live in now. So it's pretty sad.

599
00:51:01,699 --> 00:51:08,799
Yeah, totally. And I like that you brought up a couple of times how, like you, I grew up in a

600
00:51:08,799 --> 00:51:12,639
very left area. I was up in Seattle in that area and, you know,

601
00:51:12,699 --> 00:51:16,219
very much grew up in a very far left household, all the friends,

602
00:51:16,299 --> 00:51:18,019
all the university students I was around,

603
00:51:18,099 --> 00:51:19,639
like everyone around me is on the left.

604
00:51:19,639 --> 00:51:23,339
And I have a very soft place in my heart for all of these people,

605
00:51:23,439 --> 00:51:28,739
because I think that they really do want to do what's best for themselves in

606
00:51:28,739 --> 00:51:30,019
the future, just like the right does.

607
00:51:30,159 --> 00:51:33,099
I think that people are good and they want to create a better future,

608
00:51:33,099 --> 00:51:37,599
but you and I both would probably agree that there are a few pieces that they

609
00:51:37,599 --> 00:51:44,359
are missing or just have been, you know, coerced by the government forces to believe when it's not

610
00:51:44,359 --> 00:51:49,259
really true, that have sort of gotten them off track. And I would love to hear your take on

611
00:51:49,259 --> 00:51:54,479
what do you think are the main things that the people will stick with the left here, the people

612
00:51:54,479 --> 00:51:59,179
on the left, what do you think are the main things that they're missing in where they are angling

613
00:51:59,179 --> 00:52:05,679
their energy and passion, and why they should care more about Bitcoin? Economic theory, like on a

614
00:52:05,679 --> 00:52:12,459
from top to bottom. They have zero meaningful understanding of economics, which is why they

615
00:52:12,459 --> 00:52:18,779
identify as a socialist. And I remember I had this conversation with some good friends that

616
00:52:18,779 --> 00:52:24,319
are from up in the Pacific Northwest. And it was the last conversation we had because of how bad it

617
00:52:24,319 --> 00:52:31,359
went. And I realized that why they have such strong socialist perspectives is because they will

618
00:52:31,359 --> 00:52:36,799
always be poor. Like they will never, there will never be an opportunity in their lives to provide

619
00:52:36,799 --> 00:52:42,619
for a greater amount of economic value where like they could actually become millionaires.

620
00:52:42,919 --> 00:52:46,719
And so for them, it's really easy for them to be like, yeah, we just like steal money from

621
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:50,559
the millionaires. We redistribute it to the poor people and like everybody's happy.

622
00:52:51,019 --> 00:52:56,799
And they don't necessarily get that. Like, first of all, like stealing is like an unethical thing.

623
00:52:56,799 --> 00:53:00,719
So like, why does it suddenly become ethical at like a certain price point? But second of all,

624
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:05,759
like, do you not understand that when you steal a lot of money from people that are wealthy,

625
00:53:05,759 --> 00:53:10,379
they will choose to send their operations elsewhere? Because like, that's the kind of

626
00:53:10,379 --> 00:53:16,359
person they are is like, they think about money and savings. And they go, well, if I just move my

627
00:53:16,359 --> 00:53:22,419
business operations 100 miles east, like I end up saving 10%. That's like a, that's like a pretty

628
00:53:22,419 --> 00:53:29,119
worthwhile thing to me. Because like, for me, that's $500,000. 10% for you is like $5. I can

629
00:53:29,119 --> 00:53:34,699
see why that wouldn't matter much to you. And so like, I think economic theory is extremely

630
00:53:34,699 --> 00:53:41,819
important because the other one is, is that the idea of modern monetary theory and that like the

631
00:53:41,819 --> 00:53:45,939
government's going to spend the money for good stuff and it's important that they spend on that

632
00:53:45,939 --> 00:54:04,869
good stuff is like a real bullshitty thing that they believe And so for me the one I always return to is like and this is why I don identify as right or left Like I I always been radically anti Like I completely fucking uninterested in murdering anybody for any reason outside of my own need

633
00:54:04,869 --> 00:54:06,929
Like, and people always find this intriguing.

634
00:54:07,049 --> 00:54:08,849
They're like, well, why do you love guns so much?

635
00:54:08,889 --> 00:54:20,369
And I'm like, there is such a categorical difference between me choosing to use a firearm against somebody who's threatening me or my family versus me choosing to bring violence to people.

636
00:54:20,389 --> 00:54:25,669
who I've never met, I don't have personal conflict with who other people have told me I'm supposed to

637
00:54:25,669 --> 00:54:29,669
have conflict with. Like these things are categorically different. And if you don't

638
00:54:29,669 --> 00:54:34,229
understand that relationship, like you haven't actually thought in this way in any meaningful

639
00:54:34,229 --> 00:54:40,389
way. And so for me, people on the left, I go look like is war something that's a value to you and

640
00:54:40,389 --> 00:54:46,309
that you believe in, you almost always get no. And you go, so why do you support a system that

641
00:54:46,309 --> 00:54:51,989
inherently allows for the government to create weapons of mass destruction that are used against

642
00:54:51,989 --> 00:54:57,349
people in ways that you have zero say whatsoever. And that usually throws them for a loop where they

643
00:54:57,349 --> 00:55:02,629
have to go, huh? Yeah, let me think about that. And I usually never get kind of a good response

644
00:55:02,629 --> 00:55:08,149
to it. So for me, it's really about the economic equation first, because once you can start to go,

645
00:55:08,329 --> 00:55:15,209
oh, okay, it turns out that like, money is a thing actually of subjective value. And the other one I

646
00:55:15,209 --> 00:55:20,689
think is more important is like realizing like you can be an empowered economic agent like you can go

647
00:55:20,689 --> 00:55:25,509
create and sell and do whatever you want and with bitcoin it's so much easier and so much more fluid

648
00:55:25,509 --> 00:55:31,109
and also like if you want to sell illegal stuff like go ahead that's great like if like you want

649
00:55:31,109 --> 00:55:36,349
to sell stuff you gather in the the forest and you don't want a permit awesome use bitcoin go on

650
00:55:36,349 --> 00:55:43,029
noster sell the stuff you know and uh i find most people are still unreceptive to it but i at least

651
00:55:43,029 --> 00:55:48,129
feel for myself that's one of the strongest presentations I can kind of give to them for

652
00:55:48,129 --> 00:55:52,429
why they should care about understanding not only why Bitcoin works, but more importantly,

653
00:55:52,569 --> 00:55:58,789
economics. And like, I think until that is accepted, it's pretty difficult.

654
00:56:00,129 --> 00:56:05,849
Yeah, definitely. And I'm glad you brought up the defunding war topic, because this is one I am

655
00:56:05,849 --> 00:56:11,689
always trying to explain to people. And in Saifedean's book, The Bitcoin Standard, he talks

656
00:56:11,689 --> 00:56:15,489
about this and I have the page screenshot to actually send to friends when they ask like

657
00:56:15,489 --> 00:56:20,729
how could you connect Bitcoin to war like you're you must be crazy if you think Bitcoin is going to

658
00:56:20,729 --> 00:56:25,309
stop the wars of the world you've been drinking too much Kool-Aid but I mean it's when you look at

659
00:56:25,309 --> 00:56:31,409
the old times when you have two kingdoms with the kings that don't like each other you have a big

660
00:56:31,409 --> 00:56:38,949
pot of gold and in order to conduct war they pay their soldiers in gold to go fight and as soon as

661
00:56:38,949 --> 00:56:43,529
one of the sides is out of gold they can no longer pay their soldiers the soldiers say fuck this i'm

662
00:56:43,529 --> 00:56:49,509
going home and they stop fighting the team that still has gold wins war is over now can contrast

663
00:56:49,509 --> 00:56:54,209
that with today where every single government has a money printer where they can just keep printing

664
00:56:54,209 --> 00:56:58,409
unlimited money and stealing from their population without them even knowing it through inflation

665
00:56:58,409 --> 00:57:04,829
and so it basically gives these these warmongering nations of which the u.s is definitely a massive

666
00:57:04,829 --> 00:57:10,229
one it's probably the biggest we have a responsibility as americans to really call

667
00:57:10,229 --> 00:57:15,129
this out and say our government is just off the rails right now with all this funding of war

668
00:57:15,129 --> 00:57:20,569
everywhere and well like it's the most anti-american thing that there can be done is like we actually

669
00:57:20,569 --> 00:57:26,429
stand for the values of freedom the ability for people to to have free speech to be able to live

670
00:57:26,429 --> 00:57:30,929
in peace to to be in harmony with each other and when we're allowing our governments to go

671
00:57:30,929 --> 00:57:35,329
fucking roguely murder whoever they want to because they don't align with whatever the

672
00:57:35,329 --> 00:57:41,509
political agenda is like that that's just an inherently despicable and un-american thing

673
00:57:41,509 --> 00:57:46,749
and so like i find it really ludicrous that somehow these people have hijacked the dialogue

674
00:57:46,749 --> 00:57:51,769
of that like supporting whatever war it is is american because it's not like it's the most

675
00:57:51,769 --> 00:57:57,849
un-american thing that there is and i and to me like that's one of the biggest things that that

676
00:57:57,849 --> 00:58:03,789
really upsets me is like, and that's, you know, my number one goal with Bitcoin is like, I don't

677
00:58:03,789 --> 00:58:09,529
want global wars anymore. If things can reduce themselves to local conflicts and violence in that

678
00:58:09,529 --> 00:58:15,609
area, to me, like that's, that's a much bigger win to have by being able to actually have the

679
00:58:15,609 --> 00:58:19,849
money limit what can be done. And it's also important to understand that like, the very

680
00:58:19,849 --> 00:58:25,689
product of fiat money came about for war financing, like the king of England literally couldn't finance

681
00:58:25,689 --> 00:58:30,409
this war and his finance minister was like check it out we'll like make this bond thing and we'll

682
00:58:30,409 --> 00:58:35,949
like promise to pay everybody back after we've won the war so like we'll issue these bonds we'll

683
00:58:35,949 --> 00:58:41,049
collect a shitload of gold we'll defeat the french and then we'll use the new revenue from the

684
00:58:41,049 --> 00:58:47,709
imperialist project in france to like pay back the taxes and they're like yeah that's like a good idea

685
00:58:47,709 --> 00:58:54,589
and you know here we fucking are now yeah absolutely and this is the type of history

686
00:58:54,589 --> 00:58:59,109
lessons that we don't get taught in school because they basically show you that the real

687
00:58:59,109 --> 00:59:04,309
problem is always coming down to the money. And the same ones controlling that money spigot are

688
00:59:04,309 --> 00:59:08,749
the ones that create the educational programs. And this is why we go through these school. And I

689
00:59:08,749 --> 00:59:13,309
still remember going through my economics classes in college where, of course, they didn't mention

690
00:59:13,309 --> 00:59:18,309
Bitcoin. They didn't talk about why gold was good. They just talked about how the Federal Reserve and

691
00:59:18,309 --> 00:59:23,069
the banks are important because they, quote unquote, smooth out the booms and bust cycles.

692
00:59:23,069 --> 00:59:27,949
and they help make sure that we have like a stable 2% inflation

693
00:59:27,949 --> 00:59:31,669
and just all these rules where you aren't even really taught to question,

694
00:59:31,789 --> 00:59:33,289
like why do we have any inflation?

695
00:59:34,089 --> 00:59:35,749
Like is any inflation good for us?

696
00:59:35,789 --> 00:59:37,429
Do you think inflation is good for us, Eric?

697
00:59:37,509 --> 00:59:38,569
Tell me about inflation.

698
00:59:39,709 --> 00:59:43,249
Well, it's interesting because like the 2% thing is the best example

699
00:59:43,249 --> 00:59:46,049
is because like there's numbers pulled out of an ass.

700
00:59:46,049 --> 00:59:50,889
Like there's nowhere in economic literature other than saying like we have an estimation

701
00:59:50,889 --> 00:59:56,409
that we think that this is the ideal thing but like it starts to come down to all this sort of

702
00:59:56,409 --> 01:00:01,789
metacognition of like well what are like what is education like why are we here trying to learn

703
01:00:01,789 --> 01:00:08,029
about this like like it seems to me kind of on its face that like if i'm trying to save something

704
01:00:08,029 --> 01:00:13,569
that like those savings should be safe and should like acquire greater purchasing power over time

705
01:00:13,569 --> 01:00:19,129
like why doesn't the economy function that way and it turns out when you like start to read in

706
01:00:19,129 --> 01:00:25,929
history on your own and see what the true uh like historicity of the world is like it turns out that

707
01:00:26,809 --> 01:00:31,129
you know and this is why i keep going back to the propaganda thing is like i i very strongly believe

708
01:00:31,129 --> 01:00:36,969
that like there's nothing that you can watch on tv and there's no education institute that you can

709
01:00:36,969 --> 01:00:44,409
go to that isn't inherently a propaganda based system and like it's not to say that they can't

710
01:00:44,409 --> 01:00:51,289
deliver actual factual news but like those facts if you will are always going to be prismed through

711
01:00:51,289 --> 01:00:57,289
a particular system that's going to empower them you know and i think uh as daniel webster once said

712
01:00:57,769 --> 01:01:04,729
you know like they don't they don't seek to be your masters but like they do seek to be a master

713
01:01:04,729 --> 01:01:09,849
first and like that's the biggest thing is like the system only works with them having power and

714
01:01:09,849 --> 01:01:15,429
mastery over it first. And this is the problem with how these systems operate inherently is like,

715
01:01:15,489 --> 01:01:20,629
unless you are truly self sovereign, whether it's run money, education, or anything else,

716
01:01:20,629 --> 01:01:26,449
which demands a self responsibility, you are always going to be subservient to someone in some

717
01:01:26,449 --> 01:01:32,169
way. And when those relationships are pushed into their extremes, that subservience is always going

718
01:01:32,169 --> 01:01:37,329
to mean like you are sacrificeable within that paradigm. And so like, I think that's really

719
01:01:37,329 --> 01:01:56,820
important because like what I love about Bitcoin is that like I feel very strongly everyone should have some small amount maybe not even a small amount but they should have some amount of Bitcoin that they can access at any point in time because like you know one of the scarier examples that comes up is like look if you like a

720
01:01:56,820 --> 01:02:00,920
married man and your wife suddenly freaks out because she thinks you're cheating on you and

721
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:08,120
starts making accusations of all kinds of things against you, or let's just say, you know, you're

722
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:13,740
out in the world and somebody accuses you of like a really heinous and despicable crime. Like you can

723
01:02:13,740 --> 01:02:18,580
be jailed, you can be cut off from your bank accounts, like all sorts of things can be done

724
01:02:18,580 --> 01:02:25,620
to deprive you of your economic liberty but if you have a way to safely access some amount of

725
01:02:25,620 --> 01:02:32,100
bitcoin for yourself like that can be the difference between you being able to bail yourself out of a

726
01:02:32,100 --> 01:02:38,600
situation or flee the country if necessary or whether or not like you end up in a cage for the

727
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:43,280
rest of your life and that's something really important to think about and consider for yourself

728
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:49,1000
is, you know, and same thing like, you know, for women that are in relationships where,

729
01:02:50,180 --> 01:02:53,040
you know, maybe they have a partner that's highly controlling for some reason, like,

730
01:02:53,300 --> 01:02:57,880
you might want to consider having a nest egg of Bitcoin set aside somewhere in case like,

731
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:03,300
things ever get bad and you do need to flee. And like, this is the last thing any of us wants.

732
01:03:03,740 --> 01:03:08,020
But it's really important to understand that like, there are these really alarming and terrible

733
01:03:08,020 --> 01:03:12,420
situations that can produce themselves where if you haven't taken the self responsibility

734
01:03:12,420 --> 01:03:16,940
to consider that that is a non-zero chance and to prepare for it,

735
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:21,400
you might find yourself in a pretty bad situation that you can't extract yourself from.

736
01:03:22,220 --> 01:03:23,260
Yeah, definitely.

737
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:27,660
And I think that this is a good transition into the book that you wrote

738
01:03:27,660 --> 01:03:29,780
and the title of it is called Crypto Sovereignty.

739
01:03:29,1000 --> 01:03:32,420
And I think you pretty much just gave a great case for that.

740
01:03:32,940 --> 01:03:38,1000
It's giving you this level of sovereignty that just gives you that mental freedom and safety

741
01:03:38,1000 --> 01:03:41,740
and knowing that you have something that can't be taken away from you.

742
01:03:41,740 --> 01:03:49,400
Like even like people can even take your life, but they couldn't even take your Bitcoin because they wouldn't be able to guess your password because it's like so encrypted.

743
01:03:49,1000 --> 01:03:53,480
Now, just for your book, I'd love to get just the cliff notes of that.

744
01:03:53,580 --> 01:03:55,060
I unfortunately haven't been able to read it yet.

745
01:03:55,100 --> 01:03:56,180
I'd love to at some point.

746
01:03:56,480 --> 01:04:03,120
Could you give us just like an overview of what the crypto sovereignty thesis is that you shared in that book as a preview?

747
01:04:03,260 --> 01:04:05,900
And I'll make sure to have a link to it to show notes so people can check it out.

748
01:04:05,900 --> 01:04:17,340
The honest truth is I can't really give it a synopsis because it's really it's like 21 different essays that were all written separately that were never designed to really marry up into a book.

749
01:04:17,340 --> 01:04:26,300
But I guess the sort of the overarching thing is really kind of considering philosophically, like what sort of sovereignty does cryptography entail?

750
01:04:26,580 --> 01:04:33,420
How and why is Bitcoin different from crypto on a whole and what the important features of that are?

751
01:04:33,420 --> 01:04:49,500
And what are the real possibilities that open up through a world where people start utilizing cryptography with an understanding that there's a very real form of power that gets produced when I choose to encrypt my information and nobody can force me to unveil that.

752
01:04:49,500 --> 01:05:02,760
And the sort of systems of power that get produced through that, you know, and I have one essay in there called Crypto Truth and Power, which really highlights like we need to understand that cryptography really is a technique of war at the end of the day.

753
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:14,960
And so like that means that the choice to encrypt something and have total sovereignty over whether that information gets exposed or not truly is a new form of power.

754
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:30,120
And from that, there can be a production of a totally new form of Internet that is based based and built on top of decentralized peer to peer asymmetric cryptography, which I ultimately believe like that is the political destiny of the future of that.

755
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:36,920
uh like the internet is very very broken right now with the sort of uh client server model that

756
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:41,880
we're using and the fact that like you have to go to twitter or facebook or whoever and go please

757
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:46,440
i've given you my login and password can i have access to all of my data and they go yes you may

758
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:51,080
but as soon as you say something they don't like they go no you can't have access to that anymore

759
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:55,240
and like that's not a future anybody wants a future that people want is that like i own all

760
01:05:55,240 --> 01:06:00,760
my own data you can't use my data against me you can't sell it to advertisers and with where we're

761
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:06,600
going with ai like uh the entirety of the internet and this database model is fundamentally broken

762
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:11,560
and so like i think in the transition that we're going to go through into the future people are

763
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:16,760
essentially going to realize stuff like bitcoin and nostr is going to be the substrate that allows

764
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:25,080
for us to build this new decentralized peer-to-peer asymmetric cryptographic protocol blob internet

765
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:30,520
thing that will replace everything. And it's really exciting because there's also going to be

766
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:36,220
the greatest of economic opportunities in participating in that and making that transformation

767
01:06:36,220 --> 01:06:42,920
with everyone. What kind of economic opportunities do you see there specifically? Because I know that

768
01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:47,160
since you brought up AI, that's sort of something a lot of people are thinking when they hear AI is

769
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:51,480
like, oh, it's going to steal my job. It's going to take my job. So like people are sort of scared

770
01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:55,140
of it. Like they're going to lose economic opportunity because of these innovations.

771
01:06:55,140 --> 01:07:01,320
And so what would be your answer to that and how Bitcoin and Nostra actually will make

772
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:07,300
the future even better with AI versus a fiat plus AI future would probably be the worst

773
01:07:07,300 --> 01:07:10,300
possible outcome. How do you look at those two different paths?

774
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:17,340
Yeah. Like if, uh, like if you're not a highly skilled or creative individual, yeah, like

775
01:07:17,340 --> 01:07:23,820
there are probably things for you to be worried about. But like, if you're talented and creative

776
01:07:23,820 --> 01:07:29,200
at whatever you do, AI is just going to enhance what you do in a really powerful way. And so like,

777
01:07:29,720 --> 01:07:34,840
it's almost a forcing function to make people step into their uniqueness. Because like,

778
01:07:34,860 --> 01:07:39,160
if you don't have a uniqueness to put out there, it's going to make things really hard.

779
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:45,460
But if you do have uniqueness or talent really in anywhere, it's going to enhance what you do

780
01:07:45,460 --> 01:07:51,260
tenfold. And so like, I really see most economic actors that are within the top 10% of whatever

781
01:07:51,260 --> 01:07:55,800
field they're doing, they're going to become 10 times more efficient and take all of the market

782
01:07:55,800 --> 01:08:00,880
from everybody else. And everybody else is going to have an opportunity to go engage much more

783
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:04,940
deeply in their own niche and what they really should be doing. And I think like that's actually

784
01:08:04,940 --> 01:08:10,100
a really powerful and important and great thing because in that more wealth is going to get

785
01:08:10,100 --> 01:08:16,360
created across the board for everybody. And so I think people that create the tooling that is going

786
01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:23,500
to help make this transition are like essentially every single model that exists on the internet

787
01:08:23,500 --> 01:08:29,900
today can essentially be ripped out and inverted. And like you essentially shove a bunch of like

788
01:08:29,900 --> 01:08:35,840
Bitcoin and Noster stuff into that. And it becomes like a new free and open source self-reliant

789
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:42,620
model that like on that model, you can skim some part of payments off of it. And people want to use

790
01:08:42,620 --> 01:08:47,760
it because it's 10 times better than the contemporary model. And also because it's free

791
01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:51,940
and open source, it means anybody anywhere can use it that you know, there aren't rails on how

792
01:08:51,940 --> 01:08:57,740
these things are going to be controlled. And I think because of that, that increases the breadth

793
01:08:57,740 --> 01:09:03,600
of opportunity that, you know, I really think like this is what wealth of generation is and that like,

794
01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:09,520
a lot of people really neglect the fact that economics is not a zero sum game.

795
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:11,820
And like, this is what wealth creation is about.

796
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:15,780
It's about there's a new field that's available to create in.

797
01:09:16,480 --> 01:09:19,040
And so like with like,

798
01:09:19,100 --> 01:09:22,060
there's tons of super talented musicians out there who,

799
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:24,260
who make incredible music,

800
01:09:24,260 --> 01:09:29,060
but because trying to break into the music industry as it is today,

801
01:09:29,200 --> 01:09:44,250
there all kinds of shit and barriers that make it nearly impossible But if you get somebody talented on Noster and have them do their thing and they get 50 100 dedicated followers and each one like man this fucking rocks I going to zap this guy with 10 bucks

802
01:09:44,510 --> 01:09:52,490
Suddenly, they actually have a pretty efficient model that's working 10, if not 100 times better than all the contemporary ones.

803
01:09:52,590 --> 01:09:56,210
You're reaching out to your users directly and nobody can take those performances from you.

804
01:09:56,210 --> 01:10:03,410
And so I think those kind of efficiencies are really going to drive the new future that we're going to go into.

805
01:10:03,570 --> 01:10:06,210
And it's going to provide so much more opportunity for everybody.

806
01:10:07,010 --> 01:10:17,370
And I think while it's really scary and it demands that people get outside of the boxes that they believe they're supposed to live within, like the box is broken and it's on fire.

807
01:10:17,510 --> 01:10:19,110
So like you have to get out of it anyways.

808
01:10:19,770 --> 01:10:24,350
And the quicker you do that, the more powerful you'll be in this new world.

809
01:10:24,990 --> 01:10:26,010
I love that.

810
01:10:26,010 --> 01:10:37,930
And I'm glad that you brought up the musicians and the artists and how they can use these technologies to improve their output and be able to do what they love and make money doing it.

811
01:10:38,410 --> 01:10:42,130
I know this is something both of us care about because we were talking about before we even pressed the record button.

812
01:10:42,590 --> 01:10:55,710
And, you know, after all the darkness that we talked about before, which is always in the mind how we have this crazy war machine to defund and the state is just running amok and we need to defund this giant beast that's causing misery to everybody.

813
01:10:56,010 --> 01:11:09,890
At the same time, we have this beautiful future like Bitcoin and Austria's ability to create very positive outcomes right now for good people creating great things who are actually bringing value to the world rather than destroying it.

814
01:11:10,550 --> 01:11:12,550
So I'd love to just dig more into that.

815
01:11:12,630 --> 01:11:16,690
You just gave a really good overview right there basically of why artists should care about this.

816
01:11:16,690 --> 01:11:30,290
But what would be your elevator pitch for why people who do have something interesting to create and have some uniqueness, like you said, as, you know, I think a lot of people out there could really stop and think about it and say, you know what, I do make some pretty cool shit.

817
01:11:30,370 --> 01:11:32,210
Like, I want to be rewarded for this.

818
01:11:32,230 --> 01:11:35,810
And I want to take advantage of Bitcoin and Nostra to be able to do that.

819
01:11:35,890 --> 01:11:36,730
What would you tell them?

820
01:11:37,830 --> 01:11:45,710
I'd say first, just like focus on your art, you know, like, like for me as like a writer and a podcast guy, like for me, this was always a production for myself.

821
01:11:45,710 --> 01:11:48,690
Like I always just wanted to answer these questions and get it out.

822
01:11:48,790 --> 01:11:52,710
So it's like, first and foremost, just concentrate on like whatever your art is.

823
01:11:53,110 --> 01:11:57,710
But furthermore, for you, through you just owning that and putting it out there, uh, you're

824
01:11:57,710 --> 01:12:02,230
going to find a lot greater traction in using something like Noster where you own all of

825
01:12:02,230 --> 01:12:03,730
your own content and information.

826
01:12:03,730 --> 01:12:07,150
And you're going to reach out to kind of other people that are interested in it.

827
01:12:07,290 --> 01:12:12,630
And, uh, you know, like the other one is, is like the, the future before us is so bright

828
01:12:12,630 --> 01:12:18,170
And I find it like I 100% get the darkness.

829
01:12:18,890 --> 01:12:34,110
But what I really see is that like there's such a massive opportunity right now that like I very much believe that our generation, the one that has like we straddle the world between knowing what a world looks like without the Internet and with it.

830
01:12:34,110 --> 01:12:42,530
And having grown up without it and having it today makes us a very unique and empowered population that I think like it comes down to us.

831
01:12:42,630 --> 01:12:49,910
on whether or not we get a pretty technologically utopian looking world or we get a technologically

832
01:12:49,910 --> 01:12:56,010
dystopian panoptic surveillance future. And like, that's up to us. And to me, it's already very

833
01:12:56,010 --> 01:13:00,670
clear, like good is going to win because like, that's how the narrative plays out. And like,

834
01:13:00,730 --> 01:13:05,370
that's something to be really excited about and to celebrate and to enjoy. And the more that you

835
01:13:05,370 --> 01:13:10,530
meet other Bitcoiners and you connect on that topic, it becomes very real. And that's kind of

836
01:13:10,530 --> 01:13:15,030
one of the things that I really love talking about people with is really

837
01:13:15,030 --> 01:13:20,370
presencing them to like, Bitcoin is actually the goodness that we believe it to be.

838
01:13:20,370 --> 01:13:25,710
And that purity and engaging with it and building on it for what it is, like,

839
01:13:25,710 --> 01:13:28,850
that's a great thing that we should feel good about and that we should celebrate.

840
01:13:29,550 --> 01:13:35,710
And also just funny that that's also like the highest, best use and like the most

841
01:13:35,710 --> 01:13:38,570
attractive thing that we can do in our lives.

842
01:13:38,570 --> 01:13:48,310
You know, like it becomes a kind of magnetism that pulls other people in and they go, whoa, like these Bitcoiner people seem really happy and excited about what they're doing.

843
01:13:48,430 --> 01:13:49,770
Like, I'm curious to know more.

844
01:13:49,850 --> 01:13:52,470
Like, how how can I participate in this?

845
01:13:52,470 --> 01:13:53,370
And like the.

846
01:13:54,490 --> 01:14:01,250
That's one of the things I love the most about going to Bitcoin conferences, just like the vibration frequency of what's going on is so high.

847
01:14:02,170 --> 01:14:06,970
And because like there is a real mutual acknowledgement of like, hey, like we all want to fix the money.

848
01:14:06,970 --> 01:14:14,330
We all get that it's fucking broken and we all get that by us fixing the money, there's greater opportunity for all of us.

849
01:14:14,510 --> 01:14:20,490
And like, that's a good thing that we should feel proud of and that we should be really impressed and happy with each other.

850
01:14:20,490 --> 01:14:39,310
And even more importantly than that, like I'm always blown away just at the caliber, quality and generosity of people that I encounter in the Bitcoin field because everybody actually gets that this is an important mission that could realistically change things in a really important way.

851
01:14:39,570 --> 01:14:43,130
And that's important to remember as we all kind of go through this journey together.

852
01:14:43,130 --> 01:14:49,830
couldn't agree more and i love how there's so many paths that we sort of just laid out there for

853
01:14:49,830 --> 01:14:55,230
people to take to just get more into this thing if if you're a creator who wants to create keep

854
01:14:55,230 --> 01:15:00,090
keep creating content and get paid for it nostrils right there and but even if you're not like a you

855
01:15:00,090 --> 01:15:04,870
know quote-unquote creator or an artist no matter what your craft is that you're passionate about

856
01:15:04,870 --> 01:15:10,870
you can just start using your earnings for that to save in bitcoin and if you have knowledge or

857
01:15:10,870 --> 01:15:14,890
specific skills that could be useful for other people to teach, post that knowledge on the

858
01:15:14,890 --> 01:15:19,570
Nostra and you can earn even more Bitcoin. So there's really just so many ways to get into this

859
01:15:19,570 --> 01:15:24,090
thing. Go to your local Bitcoin meetup, go to the conferences nearby. They're all over the place now.

860
01:15:24,190 --> 01:15:28,610
Pretty much every major city has them. If it doesn't, start one. Find some people that are

861
01:15:28,610 --> 01:15:33,930
into it. There are places like Orange Pill App and Satlantis, which are these different places

862
01:15:33,930 --> 01:15:38,630
where you can go find meetups that are going on and connect with other Bitcoiners in these areas.

863
01:15:38,630 --> 01:15:47,630
So I really just want to encourage everyone out there to continue going into this rabbit hole with us and learning all these awesome opportunities that lay ahead in the Bitcoin future.

864
01:15:47,890 --> 01:15:51,110
So I think that'd be a pretty good place to start wrapping it up, Eric.

865
01:15:51,390 --> 01:15:53,470
There's so many notes I have for future episodes.

866
01:15:53,590 --> 01:15:58,610
I think we can cut that off since it's a high note, and we'll come back to it another time with more topics.

867
01:15:58,990 --> 01:16:02,510
So where can people call you to continue looking into your work?

868
01:16:03,610 --> 01:16:06,610
The best place is if you can find me on Noster, follow me there.

869
01:16:06,710 --> 01:16:07,870
I'm also an ex.

870
01:16:07,870 --> 01:16:13,170
It's just Eric Kaysen. And, you know, my book is called Crypto Sovereignty.

871
01:16:13,410 --> 01:16:16,730
You can buy that in the Bitcoin bookstore. You can find it on Amazon, too.

872
01:16:17,970 --> 01:16:23,110
Yeah. You know, I just really encourage people that like they're there.

873
01:16:23,450 --> 01:16:27,330
Whatever you have to contribute is meaningful and important.

874
01:16:27,530 --> 01:16:33,690
And just keep continuing and pursuing your own journey, you know, and at each step, there's going to be difficulties.

875
01:16:33,690 --> 01:16:38,850
But now there's this really robust community of Bitcoiners who truly want to help others.

876
01:16:38,850 --> 01:16:51,070
And so like at any point that you're feeling stuck and most importantly was like if you're kind of new on your journey and you haven't like met other Bitcoiners like out in the wild, like you should go to a meetup or a conference or something.

877
01:16:51,070 --> 01:17:01,330
Because like meeting other Bitcoiners in the wild is like a really cool experience that you realize, yeah, like there's this whole ethos that people want to participate in.

878
01:17:01,330 --> 01:17:04,390
So I would really encourage anybody who's thinking that to do that.

879
01:17:06,090 --> 01:17:06,450
100%.

880
01:17:06,450 --> 01:17:07,990
Everyone get out there and get on it.

881
01:17:08,310 --> 01:17:09,870
Big wins happening, whether you like it or not.

882
01:17:09,970 --> 01:17:13,670
Time to get on the train, getting happier, getting more stacks,

883
01:17:13,950 --> 01:17:17,510
raise higher, and just being ready for the future and being more free.

884
01:17:17,730 --> 01:17:19,550
So exciting time to be alive for sure.

885
01:17:19,850 --> 01:17:21,470
Eric, thank you so much for joining me today, man.

886
01:17:21,510 --> 01:17:22,590
Really appreciate you being here.

887
01:17:23,250 --> 01:17:23,810
Thank you, Ben.

888
01:17:23,970 --> 01:17:26,670
It was a great conversation, and I appreciate being here too.