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Hello, everyone. Today, I'm joined by Alan Savory, an independent scientist, founder of holistic management in the Savory Institute, as well as an author with an upcoming memoir covering one of the most incredible lives one could imagine, ranging from being a game ranger, leading guerrilla units in the military, parliament, independent science, ecology, and more. It is such an enormous honor to have you here, Alan Savory. Thank you so much for joining me today.

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Well, thank you, Ben, for inviting me.

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So a place I thought we could start this out is where I think most people have heard your name before, even if they didn't know it, was the TED Talk that you did about grazing and how this can be the most regenerative new thing that people aren't really thinking about as a way to bring back the land and reverse desertification we see all over the world.

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Tell me about this TED Talk experience for you.

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I can imagine that this was just a total catalyst in your life that got your message out to so many people after so many years of having relative struggle getting the message out.

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So what was that like getting on that stage and sharing your message with the world?

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That was thrilling.

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That was thanks to Chris Anderson, who owned and ran TED.

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They did an audition in Johannesburg.

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I went down to it and gave a short talk,

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and Chris was in the audience doing the critique.

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And at the end of it, he told me it was bloody terrible.

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And I said, thanks for being honest.

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I like that.

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And I said, give me 15 minutes and let me redo it.

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And I actually tore a piece of brown paper off a package

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because I didn't have any paper.

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I had a pen.

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I mean, sat on the wall outside for 15 minutes and rewrote it,

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came in and regave it.

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And then he invited me to give a TED Talk.

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and I gave that, and I said to all of the people associated with me,

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I said, this will either bomb and go nowhere, or it'll go viral, and let's hope.

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And I gave that talk probably 10 times to my dog, trying to get it right,

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and when the talk ended, I knew that we'd got it right.

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So it's gone to officially over 9 million people now, or about 9 million,

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but unofficially to far more

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because sometimes 100 people look at it together,

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300, sometimes 20, 30, etc.

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But of course some people repeat.

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But tragically, if you look at it on the TED site,

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it still carries a disclaimer.

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And TED never invited me to talk again.

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They said they had a policy of never inviting somebody twice,

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which is obviously not true

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because they've invited two or three people to talk twice.

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What does that disclaimer say? What's it warning people about?

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It says that some scientists, et cetera, disagree with me. I haven't been able to find a single scientist in 50 years that disagrees with me. Hundreds, thousands of academics who have no idea what my work is disagree with me. No peers. I haven't had a single peer say, what's wrong?

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And in developing the work, I was commissioned with 2,000 scientists and academics through training by the U.S. government, USDA, Soil Conservation Service.

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And we did that over two years.

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And I deliberately spent one hour of every day with those 2,000 people on nothing but what I called Anything Goes.

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In other words, I said, we've got one hour we're devoting every day, and it is your job to find out where I'm wrong, either logically or in any science you're aware of.

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And in two years of that, with 2,000 scientists, we couldn't find any error in the logic or the science.

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So to say, to hear that there are people who disagree, I wish one of them somewhere in the world would come forward and tell me where.

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yeah and you know one of the things that i love about the talk that you gave and we can get into

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details of it in a second here but it it really brings together all of the different sides of the

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climate change debate because i i have friends who you know when you look at the traditional

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left right political spectrum those two sides have very different views of climate change

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obviously, as we know. But I think everyone can agree we should be making the land healthier,

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bringing back soil, having healthier soil for better food, cleaner water, cleaner air,

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happier animals. All these things should be indisputable. And it makes me think, you know,

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is the fact that your talk is really catering to everybody, not causing all this divisive debate,

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is that why people don't like it? Because there are certain forces out there that really want to

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have this constant fighting between each other. Do you believe that could be a part of it?

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It is, but it goes deeper than that. And you can't blame anybody. You can't blame the institutes

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who've opposed me, bitterly tried to get me deported from America because of the damage I'm

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doing to America. That's powerful universities and the international range society. Or in Southern

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Africa, where I was banned from setting foot on any university campus in the whole of Southern

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Africa for over 20 years, you actually can't blame any of those people. It took us a long time to

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understand it. But what I spoke about at the TED Talk was just one aspect of our work, but it was

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the first one that we discovered in the 1960s. And that was the whole world had always known

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what caused desertification. The desert sands that overwhelmed the biblical cities,

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created the great deserts of North Africa,

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up into China, across into India,

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and the world knew what caused that.

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It was wherever there's damage to land,

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it's too many animals.

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If animals are involved,

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and that had become a scientific truth,

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you find it in ancient texts,

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blaming the shepherds for overgrazing

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and causing the deserts.

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So there are thousands of PhD dissertations

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based on that.

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Not a single one even defined overgrazing, because we knew what it was.

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You don't define that water flows downhill, because you know it.

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And it was the same with livestock.

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If land is deteriorating and animals are involved, there's too many animals.

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Period.

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And what I discovered in 1960s was wrong.

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So it was heresy.

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And so you cannot blame anybody who opposed that, etc.

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and still does. The people are not wrong. It's just how humans behave to new discoveries that

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go against the beliefs of society. So nothing's changed since Galileo and Copernicus. Nothing's

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changed. And we see this happen no matter what industry or field it is. There's just

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this built-up belief that a lot of people have put a lot of reputational capital in. They've spent

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many years or decades studying these things and they need that to be true this idea to be true

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for their identity to stay intact and it's really painful for their identity to be shattered and to

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come up with a whole new idea and it takes a really special kind of person and you do hear

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these stories rarely where someone will say you know what my whole life's work was a lie let's

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start over let's let's figure out the truth but it's so so rare and you know i'm assuming that

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do you believe there are still people out there that do this and are able to completely shatter

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their life's view and they can start over? And what do you think is the path to fostering an

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environment where more people are open to doing this? Because surely financial investment is a big

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part of it. Like we said, educational investment. How do we get it so more people can be okay with

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this? Well, I would like to get our discussion into that. And I think there's another way to

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do it, but to answer your question, I don't think you'll solve that problem of how to get

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people to accept that they were wrong, because it's so associated with the level of self-esteem.

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If a person's self-esteem is high, they can readily accept that they might have been wrong,

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But if they've pinned their self-esteem to their status, their position in a university, their seniority, the number of papers they've written, their eminence as a scientist, they're beyond retention.

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They can't.

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Their self-esteem is too low.

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Now, that's beyond me to deal with that.

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So I don't.

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We've found a better way to deal with it.

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But before we go there, let me explain one other thing.

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The TED Talk was fantastic. It's got us to where we've got, I think it's 50 odd hubs in 30 countries now, where people are beginning to manage their lives holistically. So it's taken us a long way. But it's only part of our work.

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it was the part that I

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and I'm using the word I

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discovered in the 1960s

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and how to solve it

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and that was that where we'd had this belief

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for thousands, thousands of years

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as I said to you

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we also had another belief

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and that was that you could solve this problem

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of desertification, biodiversity loss

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using the only two tools that humans have

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We're a tool-using animal.

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Nobody listening to us can even drink milk today without using technology.

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If they want to, they've got to go and find a cow and suck with a mouth.

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You can't even drink water without technology, a mug, cup, pipe, whatever.

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We're a tool-using animal.

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And what I discovered essentially in the 1960s was that throughout a million years of human evolution,

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we first only had one tool, technology, and that was just stones and sticks like otters, apes, vultures,

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other tool using animals, crows, etc.

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And then, unlike all other animals, we learned to use and then to make fire.

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And at that point, humans started changing whole continents, climates, etc.

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So we've always only had those two tools.

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And I realized as a young ecologist in the 60s that with those two tools, it's impossible, impossible.

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And I plead with any scientists in the world, any Nobel laureate to come forward and say how it's possible to reverse global biodiversity loss and desertification.

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You cannot solve that biological, ecological problem with fire or technology.

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And so that was the first part of our work, was discovering we had no option but to use much vilified livestock.

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And then we had the problem, well, how the hell do you do so?

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Every way humans have ever managed livestock or run livestock led to biodiversity loss.

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and not in Costa Rica, not in London, not around Paris,

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but over most of the world where there are long periods of no humidity,

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it led to desertification.

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And Elizabeth Sartoris, I loved a talk she gave once in California.

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She showed a picture of the earth rotating, much like the TED picture,

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the NASA one I used, but hers was the earth rotating

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and you can see the vast desert areas are far greater than the forests of Amazon, far greater.

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And you can see this.

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And she had a little spacecraft up there.

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And she said, had we been in space observing Earth over the last 50,000, 100,000 years,

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we would have described humans as a desert-making species.

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So we had to solve that problem.

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and the way I did it

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because I tried to get the government

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to take over my work

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I tried to get people with resources

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to take over my work

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and I got ridiculed basically

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so I had to do it myself

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and I didn't have the resources

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as a lone independent scientist

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to do extensive research

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etc etc

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so I did what I could

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and I looked at all professions

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to see if any had solved a problem

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anything close to this

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looked at Harvard Business School

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planning, you know, what had been done.

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And nobody came close to it, except the army.

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And as I was an officer in the army in a long war,

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I had gone through the same Santer's training that we Rhodesians did,

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same as British Army and so on.

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It's similar to the training of all the armies of the world.

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And I looked at how they had solved a way,

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found a way of planning extremely complicated situations

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where you didn't know what the hell was happening.

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It could all change overnight.

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In other words, how had they, over 1,000 years,

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refining it over the last three or four centuries,

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how had they learned to train officers

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to come up with the immediately best possible plan

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right now in immediate battlefield conditions, situations?

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And I didn't try and reinvent the wheel.

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So if you go to my textbook, you'll see I credit Santos.

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They would not recognize it today, but that's where the work came from or the technique.

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So we had that in the 60s.

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And then some things we thought we were home and dry, or I did, and many of us did.

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And it spread to five countries that I was working in, et cetera.

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Now, something started to go wrong.

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and I was picking up the first signs of two clients of mine who went bankrupt.

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And that worried me a great deal.

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And of course, the plan grazing process we used was blamed.

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But I knew it wasn't because I was living with the families when I was working with them.

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And the one, I'd seen the warning signs and they went bankrupt because of a divorce.

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And I hadn't catered for a divorce.

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I hadn't catered for the full social consequences

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we're social, cultural creatures

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and the other case, I was staying with a guy

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and he went into a big irrigation scheme

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3% interest, long time to pay

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blah blah blah, government project

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and he went into that and I said I think you need to be cautious

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you're going to have to pump all the water onto your fields

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that's going to take diesel, that's going to take energy

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but I'm only advising you on your land and your grazing

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so I can only say to you

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have a careful look at that

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well he didn't and it bankrupted you

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and again the grazing got blamed

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but those were red flags to me

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and then fortunately

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I saw it as a disaster at the time

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but like many disasters

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it turned out to be a good thing

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and I was driven into exile

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and came to the United States

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and then the far-sighted bureaucrats

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in the USDA. They'd been watching my work in Africa. It was already being plagiarized in Texas.

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And they came to me and asked if I could provide training for them. And I said, yes, I'd love to,

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but on one condition, we make it open to everyone, all the universities, all the government agencies,

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not just one. And so that was agreed and interagency committee was put together.

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Don Sylvester chaired it. And that's when I put the 2,000 people through training.

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Now, I described that in the memoir and what came about, so I won't spend time on it now.

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But that's when we emerged with the second part of the problem. And that is, in many ways,

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no, you can't divorce them, but it's equally or more important than the fact that you cannot save

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the world now from desertification

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without livestock

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the second part of it again went

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against all human beliefs

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so again tell me if I'm wrong

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I would

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pretty well bet that

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every human listening to us

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knows that there are many ways

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of managing

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many ways of developing

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policy which is management at scale

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alright

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we all believe that, I believe that

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I was trained that, I was taught that

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universities teach that

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that's a belief, it's not true

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and we

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discovered that when I was working with

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2,000 scientists

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what we discovered was, oh my god

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every tool using

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00:17:34,340 --> 00:17:35,980
animals uses

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exactly the same decision making

246
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process, whether we're an ape

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a crow, a vulture or a human

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it's genetically

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embedded in us, it's very

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simple

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tell me if I'm wrong. Haven't you made every conscious decision in your life to meet a need,

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a desire, or to solve a problem? So has every human. So has every human. That's the problem.

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It's a holistic world. It's a complex world. And that will never change. That will always be the

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reason for our decisions. But we are making our decisions to manage our lives. And it cannot be

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the context for our lives, needs, desires, etc. So we discovered that in 1983, when I published the

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first edition of the textbook, that, oh my goodness, this is the cause of the problem.

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and we need to find why that is causing all policies of all governments

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to have unintended consequences.

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When good people are developing them, highly skilled people,

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the world's best experts are developing them,

261
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and yet they lead to unintended consequences.

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Just take COVID.

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In the first four months of COVID,

264
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it did more economic damage than World War II did in four years.

265
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How the hell can a virus do more economic damage

266
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in four months than a world war in four years?

267
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That's not possible.

268
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So what did the damage?

269
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It's because every government developed policy

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to deal with it in exactly the same way.

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so that's the second part of

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our work

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and I sent you that

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in a short talk, a 12 minute

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talk that I gave at

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COP26 when I

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was invited along with

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Vandana Shiva and I forget who the other

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person was, anyway three of us were

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invited to talk about how regenerative

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agriculture might

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help solve the climate change problem

283
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and having been invited

284
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to talk about that as you see

285
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I refused to do so

286
00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,080
and I said there are people who know

287
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far more about agriculture than I'll ever

288
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know in my life, I'm just an ecologist

289
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although I farmed

290
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and ranched and game ranched

291
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and I said but I want

292
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to talk about the cause of the problem

293
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because I know nobody is doing

294
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so

295
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now

296
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then everybody

297
00:20:18,780 --> 00:20:19,740
knows

298
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if you've got a headache

299
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,000
you've got a problem

300
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,840
deal with the cause of it.

301
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,040
If you take aspirin, you're dealing with a symptom.

302
00:20:32,940 --> 00:20:36,080
And if you take aspirin and you take more aspirin,

303
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,480
you start to get high blood pressure or whatever.

304
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:40,240
So you take codeine.

305
00:20:40,820 --> 00:20:43,460
And the more codeine you take, but you've still got the headache

306
00:20:43,460 --> 00:20:47,160
because you're just masking it with these symptoms.

307
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And then you take Tylenol.

308
00:20:49,340 --> 00:20:52,420
And now you've got liver problems and other problems.

309
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And that just describes how we work in the world.

310
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So if we've got a problem and you find that my headache was because somebody was banging me on the head every half hour,

311
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we'll just stop that and the headache goes.

312
00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:09,180
It is that simple.

313
00:21:09,180 --> 00:21:23,720
So I think you have interviewed a number of people in some of the 600 odd regenerative agricultural organizations in the world.

314
00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:26,220
You've interviewed a number of them.

315
00:21:26,900 --> 00:21:33,440
Tell me, did any of them spend two minutes talking about the cause of the problem?

316
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:41,160
you know i'd have to go back and listen again what would you define as the clear

317
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:49,140
cause that you're alluding to here yeah go back and i guarantee you they're all talking and it's

318
00:21:49,140 --> 00:21:53,780
wonderful stuff i support it a thousand percent i'm not opposed to anything they're saying

319
00:21:53,780 --> 00:22:00,800
but what they're talking about is how to produce food by farmers based on the biological sciences

320
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:21,444
Now how we produce food is not the problem because everything we produce whether milk bread butter cheese wheat cell phones bombs planes cars music orchestras cities everything we produce stops if you stop producing it

321
00:22:22,244 --> 00:22:25,424
You do not manage anything we produce.

322
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You don't manage it.

323
00:22:27,164 --> 00:22:28,164
You produce it.

324
00:22:29,264 --> 00:22:30,944
All right, so that's what they were talking about.

325
00:22:30,944 --> 00:22:36,024
And if you go to, say, COP26, 27, 28, 29, you can go to COP100.

326
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you'll find them in the agricultural sphere

327
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and the energy sphere

328
00:22:41,624 --> 00:22:42,664
you'll find the same

329
00:22:42,664 --> 00:22:46,624
you'll find people arguing for pharma production of food

330
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based on the biological, ecological science

331
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and you'll find the mass of people

332
00:22:52,124 --> 00:22:55,164
arguing for corporate production of food

333
00:22:55,164 --> 00:22:58,484
based on chemistry and marketing of technology

334
00:22:58,484 --> 00:23:01,964
and then you'll find the mass of our 9 billion people

335
00:23:01,964 --> 00:23:04,224
or however many are, are apathetic

336
00:23:04,224 --> 00:23:05,984
so they support the bulk

337
00:23:05,984 --> 00:23:14,084
and that's why agriculture is the most destructive industry ever in the history of the world,

338
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more so than coal, fossil oils, mining, anything has ever been.

339
00:23:19,304 --> 00:23:25,824
So when you ask what is the cause of it, that fortunately,

340
00:23:26,464 --> 00:23:31,284
and I stress through no wisdom on my part, I'm just an ordinary person,

341
00:23:32,004 --> 00:23:35,764
I accidentally stumbled on in my 20s.

342
00:23:35,984 --> 00:23:38,664
And the memoir will cover that.

343
00:23:39,044 --> 00:23:41,784
When I discovered that biodiversity loss,

344
00:23:42,324 --> 00:23:46,644
desertification was occurring in wild areas of Africa

345
00:23:46,644 --> 00:23:48,864
before we even formed national parks.

346
00:23:49,604 --> 00:23:52,484
And I was working with one of the world's top ecologists

347
00:23:52,484 --> 00:23:54,384
at that time, Sir Frank Fraser Darling,

348
00:23:55,184 --> 00:23:57,284
and he had no answers.

349
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And I realized, oh my God, this is serious.

350
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And that changed my whole life

351
00:24:03,524 --> 00:24:07,624
and led to the last 70 years of working on that problem,

352
00:24:07,744 --> 00:24:10,464
trying to understand it and solve it.

353
00:24:10,564 --> 00:24:14,784
So as I put in that short talk at COP that I sent you,

354
00:24:15,544 --> 00:24:20,804
I said, thankfully, while we've had no denial about desertification,

355
00:24:21,064 --> 00:24:24,864
we knew it was due to livestock, and I addressed that so I won't come back to it,

356
00:24:24,864 --> 00:24:31,364
I said, we have had denial about climate change being caused by humans,

357
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and we've had a lot of confusion

358
00:24:33,264 --> 00:24:35,104
and that denial is still going on.

359
00:24:35,204 --> 00:24:37,204
We're seeing it in America right now.

360
00:24:38,924 --> 00:24:41,564
But I said, over the last, I don't know,

361
00:24:41,624 --> 00:24:43,424
five, ten years, whatever,

362
00:24:44,204 --> 00:24:48,564
every sane scientist has acknowledged

363
00:24:48,564 --> 00:24:52,344
that humans are causing accelerating climate change.

364
00:24:53,064 --> 00:24:54,984
I think we can accept that now.

365
00:24:55,644 --> 00:24:58,664
Sure, there are a few who are saying

366
00:24:58,664 --> 00:25:00,184
humans have got nothing to do with it.

367
00:25:00,184 --> 00:25:04,904
but they are wrong because desertification is a major part of it,

368
00:25:05,444 --> 00:25:08,884
and that's 100% due to humans' management,

369
00:25:09,244 --> 00:25:10,744
as I showed in the TED talk.

370
00:25:11,584 --> 00:25:15,604
So we now know that humans are causing climate change.

371
00:25:16,164 --> 00:25:18,064
Now, science is logical.

372
00:25:18,904 --> 00:25:20,224
Science is not illogical.

373
00:25:21,124 --> 00:25:24,464
Science is deduction, logic, et cetera, knowledge.

374
00:25:25,464 --> 00:25:29,244
So if the world acknowledges that now,

375
00:25:29,244 --> 00:25:33,484
it's tragic. The media has missed it. Our universities

376
00:25:33,484 --> 00:25:37,184
have missed it. Our governments have missed it. They've all

377
00:25:37,184 --> 00:25:41,284
missed the significance of that acknowledgement. Let me explain

378
00:25:41,284 --> 00:25:44,904
why. If you have a problem

379
00:25:44,904 --> 00:25:49,324
climate change and you acknowledge that humans are causing

380
00:25:49,324 --> 00:25:52,864
it, now you have the cause. Humans are causing it.

381
00:25:53,344 --> 00:25:56,804
You can have two, three, four, many things

382
00:25:56,804 --> 00:26:03,804
affecting a problem, but only one root cause. So if humans are causing it, then fossil fuels are

383
00:26:03,804 --> 00:26:11,164
not causing it. And livestock, methane, is not causing it. It's humans causing it. They're

384
00:26:11,164 --> 00:26:19,444
causing it by management. How they manage fossil fuels, how they manage livestock, how they manage

385
00:26:19,444 --> 00:26:28,284
forestry, how they manage fisheries, how they manage all resources in the world. So that's what

386
00:26:28,284 --> 00:26:34,784
we need to focus on. So you actually don't need to even re-look through all your past talks, because

387
00:26:34,784 --> 00:26:43,344
I think I can guarantee none of them talked about what we manage. Now, if we don't manage food,

388
00:26:43,344 --> 00:26:47,644
beef, wine, cheese, forests, fisheries, whatever

389
00:26:47,644 --> 00:26:50,544
if we don't manage these resources

390
00:26:50,544 --> 00:26:54,744
that we are producing from nature

391
00:26:54,744 --> 00:26:57,524
what is it that we manage

392
00:26:57,524 --> 00:26:59,724
that world leaders need to focus on

393
00:26:59,724 --> 00:27:02,324
and here again, unfortunately

394
00:27:02,324 --> 00:27:05,484
this came as news to everybody

395
00:27:05,484 --> 00:27:07,984
we only manage three things

396
00:27:07,984 --> 00:27:12,704
and everybody listening to us can attest to this

397
00:27:12,704 --> 00:27:15,224
you are managing your life

398
00:27:15,224 --> 00:27:17,464
you and your family

399
00:27:17,464 --> 00:27:20,024
and the first thing you've got to do

400
00:27:20,024 --> 00:27:21,304
is manage your economy

401
00:27:21,304 --> 00:27:23,584
if you don't earn money

402
00:27:23,584 --> 00:27:24,564
if you don't have

403
00:27:24,564 --> 00:27:26,844
money to buy food

404
00:27:26,844 --> 00:27:27,764
clothes

405
00:27:27,764 --> 00:27:31,724
men commit suicide when they can't support their families

406
00:27:31,724 --> 00:27:33,284
it's very common

407
00:27:33,284 --> 00:27:34,844
and only then

408
00:27:34,844 --> 00:27:36,804
do you manage nature

409
00:27:36,804 --> 00:27:39,044
to produce every single thing

410
00:27:39,044 --> 00:27:41,784
that sustains humanity and civilization

411
00:27:42,664 --> 00:27:46,724
All the forms of food, all the forms of music, art, literature,

412
00:27:47,304 --> 00:27:49,564
is produced from nature, goes back to nature.

413
00:27:50,764 --> 00:27:53,984
Okay, so we manage these three things.

414
00:27:54,784 --> 00:27:58,824
Now, if you look at the millions of things we produce,

415
00:27:58,824 --> 00:28:03,024
whether cell phones, bread, wine, bombs, whatever we produce,

416
00:28:03,764 --> 00:28:09,304
because we don't manage it, if you stop producing, it stops.

417
00:28:09,304 --> 00:28:13,204
and with most of it, which involves technology,

418
00:28:13,644 --> 00:28:15,784
if a battery run dries, it stops.

419
00:28:15,904 --> 00:28:17,364
If fuel runs out, it stops.

420
00:28:18,164 --> 00:28:21,664
And with any form of food, if you stop producing it, it stops.

421
00:28:22,404 --> 00:28:25,304
And you can choose to produce milk or meat,

422
00:28:25,684 --> 00:28:28,604
cheese or wine, cell phones or bombs,

423
00:28:29,404 --> 00:28:31,504
cars or planes or whatever.

424
00:28:31,704 --> 00:28:32,364
You can choose.

425
00:28:33,024 --> 00:28:35,484
Now, when it comes to the three things we manage,

426
00:28:35,484 --> 00:28:39,884
our families, ourselves, our cultures,

427
00:28:40,724 --> 00:28:43,164
and at scale, our institutions.

428
00:28:43,164 --> 00:28:48,024
We cannot manage at scale without an organization or institution.

429
00:28:48,424 --> 00:28:50,524
So we're managing that human component.

430
00:28:51,284 --> 00:28:53,764
And the first thing, the political party,

431
00:28:53,924 --> 00:28:56,984
the environmental organization, the farming organization,

432
00:28:57,944 --> 00:29:01,644
whatever it is, has to do, or the family, is finance themselves.

433
00:29:01,644 --> 00:29:05,944
If they go out of money, they're out.

434
00:29:07,144 --> 00:29:27,804
And then, whatever they are, institution or human, at whichever scale, now they are managing nature, our life, supporting environment, from which we produce every single thing that makes every business, every economy, every civilization possible.

435
00:29:27,804 --> 00:29:32,204
and you cannot choose to manage only the humans

436
00:29:32,204 --> 00:29:34,684
or only the organization

437
00:29:34,684 --> 00:29:36,584
or only the economy

438
00:29:36,584 --> 00:29:38,324
or only the land.

439
00:29:39,244 --> 00:29:40,464
You can't choose.

440
00:29:41,324 --> 00:29:42,564
If you do, you'll fail

441
00:29:42,564 --> 00:29:45,084
because they're indivisible.

442
00:29:47,024 --> 00:29:49,044
And that was the second discovery

443
00:29:49,044 --> 00:29:50,124
when I then,

444
00:29:51,024 --> 00:29:52,364
and that I say we,

445
00:29:52,644 --> 00:29:55,024
because 2,000 of us working on that,

446
00:29:55,564 --> 00:29:56,644
when we did that,

447
00:29:56,644 --> 00:29:59,844
that's when I published the first edition of our textbook.

448
00:30:02,784 --> 00:30:06,804
So one of the things I would really like to drill into here is,

449
00:30:07,464 --> 00:30:11,364
for those who haven't watched the talk on YouTube, the TED Talk,

450
00:30:11,444 --> 00:30:15,444
which I obviously recommend everyone does for the full detailed breakdown

451
00:30:15,444 --> 00:30:16,804
with the visuals and everything,

452
00:30:17,024 --> 00:30:20,904
but I know you've spent your whole life breaking this down for people,

453
00:30:21,024 --> 00:30:23,404
so I can imagine how many times you've done it over the years,

454
00:30:23,404 --> 00:30:32,804
But for those who just want the 101 elevator pitch on what you're talking about, I know we brought up this idea of livestock grazing as being the essential piece.

455
00:30:33,984 --> 00:30:38,064
Could you give us that elevator pitch for the people who haven't heard this before?

456
00:30:38,484 --> 00:30:44,624
What is the solution to this problem of desertification and biodiversity loss we are seeing around so much of the world right now?

457
00:30:45,424 --> 00:30:48,044
Well, you've got it now that it's two things.

458
00:30:48,044 --> 00:30:51,824
It's how humans manage resources.

459
00:30:51,824 --> 00:30:59,364
right that's the number one thing now if you as i see in your background you're in costa rica

460
00:30:59,364 --> 00:31:09,004
you've got perennial humidity so life goes on birth growth death decay anything in that vegetation

461
00:31:09,004 --> 00:31:13,944
but that i can see behind you i know because of your distribution of humidity through the year

462
00:31:13,944 --> 00:31:19,304
i don't care whether you're high rainfall or low rainfall you get humidity throughout the year

463
00:31:19,304 --> 00:31:21,844
I can see it from the vegetation behind you.

464
00:31:22,464 --> 00:31:25,724
All right, now in that, you cannot break that cycle.

465
00:31:26,784 --> 00:31:29,224
You can use all the fire in the world.

466
00:31:29,344 --> 00:31:31,244
You can use all the chemicals in the world.

467
00:31:31,344 --> 00:31:33,144
You can use all the machinery in the world.

468
00:31:33,504 --> 00:31:37,724
You try and create 1,000 hectares of bare ground where you are.

469
00:31:38,164 --> 00:31:39,384
You can't do it.

470
00:31:40,404 --> 00:31:40,784
Why?

471
00:31:40,944 --> 00:31:42,824
Because nature will cover it up so quickly.

472
00:31:44,404 --> 00:31:48,204
Now, the rainfall in London, the rainfall in Johannesburg,

473
00:31:48,204 --> 00:31:49,004
it's about the same.

474
00:31:49,304 --> 00:31:52,824
around London, it's much the same as I'm saying to you.

475
00:31:53,064 --> 00:31:54,964
You can overgraze every damn grass.

476
00:31:55,084 --> 00:31:56,304
You can use all the chemicals.

477
00:31:56,524 --> 00:31:57,384
You can use machinery.

478
00:31:57,924 --> 00:32:01,224
You cannot create 1,000 hectares of bare ground.

479
00:32:02,564 --> 00:32:03,484
Nature will fill it up.

480
00:32:03,924 --> 00:32:06,124
Now, if you come to where I live in Zimbabwe,

481
00:32:06,604 --> 00:32:08,664
or you come to most of the world,

482
00:32:09,044 --> 00:32:11,064
right across North Africa,

483
00:32:11,784 --> 00:32:13,324
right down the Americas,

484
00:32:13,324 --> 00:32:15,664
from Canada to South America,

485
00:32:16,284 --> 00:32:18,304
if you look at right across North America,

486
00:32:18,384 --> 00:32:19,224
up into China,

487
00:32:19,304 --> 00:32:22,544
across into India, if you look at most of Australia,

488
00:32:23,164 --> 00:32:27,624
so now I'm talking of areas far vaster than the Amazon forest.

489
00:32:28,304 --> 00:32:34,644
If you look there, it's terribly easy to create thousands,

490
00:32:35,004 --> 00:32:39,284
millions of hectares of 80%, 90% per ground between the plants.

491
00:32:40,404 --> 00:32:42,904
You've only got to rest the land, and it'll happen,

492
00:32:43,324 --> 00:32:46,384
because biological decay will turn to chemical oxidation,

493
00:32:46,384 --> 00:32:50,924
and it cannot be solved with fire or technology.

494
00:32:51,664 --> 00:32:54,004
That was the subject of the TED Talk

495
00:32:54,004 --> 00:32:56,544
and I explained what oxidation is

496
00:32:56,544 --> 00:32:57,844
and what it leads to, etc.

497
00:32:58,684 --> 00:33:04,624
So that's why even though you might live, say,

498
00:33:04,984 --> 00:33:09,684
around London or Paris or parts of Europe

499
00:33:09,684 --> 00:33:11,084
or in Costa Rica,

500
00:33:11,744 --> 00:33:14,084
we have to be very careful what we're saying

501
00:33:14,084 --> 00:33:17,084
when we're saying something is a solution for the world.

502
00:33:18,124 --> 00:33:21,584
Because the solution right where you are,

503
00:33:21,984 --> 00:33:24,084
if there's some badly damaged environment

504
00:33:24,644 --> 00:33:27,944
or in the ocean or marine areas or wetlands,

505
00:33:28,364 --> 00:33:30,584
if you want to restore biodiversity,

506
00:33:30,844 --> 00:33:33,064
you have the most powerful tool in the world.

507
00:33:33,284 --> 00:33:34,284
Just rest the land.

508
00:33:35,024 --> 00:33:36,064
Just rest the ocean.

509
00:33:36,964 --> 00:33:37,544
It'll recover.

510
00:33:38,944 --> 00:33:42,084
It'll be in changed form if you've lost thousands of species,

511
00:33:42,264 --> 00:33:42,844
but it'll recover.

512
00:33:42,844 --> 00:33:45,844
now if you are

513
00:33:45,844 --> 00:33:47,804
in these other environments

514
00:33:47,804 --> 00:33:49,924
that I've said, if you rest the land

515
00:33:49,924 --> 00:33:51,984
it loses biodiversity

516
00:33:51,984 --> 00:33:54,164
so that's

517
00:33:54,164 --> 00:33:55,264
a critical part

518
00:33:55,264 --> 00:33:58,024
when you ask me to make that

519
00:33:58,024 --> 00:33:59,984
very very simple, I often just

520
00:33:59,984 --> 00:34:01,964
say to people, I hope this

521
00:34:01,964 --> 00:34:03,804
isn't a sexist remark or anything

522
00:34:03,804 --> 00:34:06,064
I'm a bit old fashioned, but I've often

523
00:34:06,064 --> 00:34:07,924
said to people with a PhD in

524
00:34:07,924 --> 00:34:09,664
range science, I said god damn it

525
00:34:09,664 --> 00:34:11,064
if you can't understand this

526
00:34:11,064 --> 00:34:16,844
go to the village and join the old ladies in tennis shoes garden club they'll teach you

527
00:34:16,844 --> 00:34:23,104
because if you go to them and you're dealing with a piece of bare ground and you say how could i

528
00:34:23,104 --> 00:34:30,164
possibly get this to cover up they will tell you if that's hard capped break it break it and you

529
00:34:30,164 --> 00:34:36,444
can do it with a tool a pick a shovel a machine or do you know what cattle hooves do it sheep

530
00:34:36,444 --> 00:34:38,484
hooves do it. Camel hooves do it.

531
00:34:39,244 --> 00:34:40,084
Animals do it.

532
00:34:40,484 --> 00:34:41,244
Free of charge.

533
00:34:42,324 --> 00:34:44,464
They'll tell you that. And if you want plants

534
00:34:44,464 --> 00:34:46,504
to grow on it, and you want water to

535
00:34:46,504 --> 00:34:48,604
soak in it, and you want water to stay

536
00:34:48,604 --> 00:34:50,404
on it, cover it with

537
00:34:50,404 --> 00:34:51,164
some litter.

538
00:34:52,204 --> 00:34:53,724
Some dead plant material.

539
00:34:54,944 --> 00:34:56,204
That's all. Now,

540
00:34:56,824 --> 00:34:58,424
how can you do that? You can go

541
00:34:58,424 --> 00:35:00,604
and cut grass and come and cover it

542
00:35:00,604 --> 00:35:01,924
as people do in the gardens.

543
00:35:02,564 --> 00:35:04,424
Or you know what? If you put

544
00:35:04,424 --> 00:35:09,724
animals on, they dung and urinate and trample vegetation, and they do it free of charge.

545
00:35:10,624 --> 00:35:21,984
It is that simple. Now, thousands of people with PhDs designed great big machines to imitate that,

546
00:35:22,824 --> 00:35:28,744
and there was no science behind it. There was only what I call proof by authority.

547
00:35:29,024 --> 00:35:33,684
I say it works, and I am professor at such and such a university.

548
00:35:34,424 --> 00:35:50,784
And I say it works. Now, on the basis of that, the American government, other governments, United Nations, spent billions of dollars on these machines, trying to imitate animals, break the surface, lay mulch, litter, Dixon imprunter, etc.

549
00:35:51,484 --> 00:35:59,264
Today, those machines lie rotting, rusting. And nobody's held accountable. Nobody refers to them now. It's too embarrassing.

550
00:35:59,264 --> 00:36:05,784
now when i suggested by the way we could do that with animals

551
00:36:05,784 --> 00:36:09,344
it was like throwing a pork chop in the synagogue

552
00:36:09,344 --> 00:36:18,104
yeah and this is a very interesting idea you talked about technology how we've always been

553
00:36:18,104 --> 00:36:23,084
a species that uses technology and tools to figure things out and get things done

554
00:36:23,084 --> 00:36:31,324
And it makes me beg the question, where do humans really stand in this pecking order of life on Earth?

555
00:36:31,384 --> 00:36:36,284
Because on one hand, you could say, you know, we keep ruining everything.

556
00:36:36,424 --> 00:36:42,144
We, you know, we're getting too fancy with all these tools and we're creating damaging tools that are disrupting nature.

557
00:36:42,404 --> 00:36:46,304
On the other hand, you could say, well, that is we are part of nature.

558
00:36:46,404 --> 00:36:49,504
It's in our nature to create these tools and use them and keep using them.

559
00:36:49,504 --> 00:36:52,624
And so how do you reconcile those two?

560
00:36:52,624 --> 00:36:59,784
I guess the question could be, where do you see humans are in the pecking order of the web of life right now?

561
00:36:59,844 --> 00:37:06,244
And where should we be and where should we aspire to move toward to be a better steward of this land?

562
00:37:07,724 --> 00:37:13,764
Bear in mind, nobody's deliberately destroying the earth as we are in our own habitat.

563
00:37:14,624 --> 00:37:19,384
You can live longer without water and food than you can without habitat.

564
00:37:19,384 --> 00:37:23,484
all right if you don't believe that try living underwater for five minutes

565
00:37:23,484 --> 00:37:29,264
now we are destroying our own habitat now we're not doing that deliberately

566
00:37:29,264 --> 00:37:37,204
and that was the great breakthrough in 1983 why have more than 20 civilizations destroyed

567
00:37:37,204 --> 00:37:44,004
themselves through their agriculture why is it now a global threat we are globally destroying

568
00:37:44,004 --> 00:37:51,964
civilization as we know it, when nobody intended that. Economists call it the law of unintended

569
00:37:51,964 --> 00:37:59,164
consequences, jokingly. Right, so that's what we discovered. So now I'm optimistic. Prior

570
00:37:59,164 --> 00:38:04,404
to that, it was, let me use the Wright brothers, for thousands of years, we didn't know how

571
00:38:04,404 --> 00:38:12,924
to fly. Who do you blame? Somebody had to be blamed. Surely to God we can hold somebody

572
00:38:12,924 --> 00:38:19,504
responsible. That's what we're saying. We didn't know why humans were destroying ourselves,

573
00:38:19,504 --> 00:38:28,084
our own habitat. So don't hold anybody accountable. Now, after 83, when we discovered what was

574
00:38:28,084 --> 00:38:35,004
causing it, yes, you can start to hold institutions accountable because they resist new knowledge.

575
00:38:35,744 --> 00:38:41,364
Ordinary humans don't, to a certain extent. All right, so where do humans lie in this?

576
00:38:41,364 --> 00:38:46,424
I'm excited for the future if we will address the cause of the problem.

577
00:38:47,104 --> 00:38:48,264
And what is the problem?

578
00:38:48,344 --> 00:38:53,464
If you had to summarize it, I would say it's global biodiversity loss.

579
00:38:53,824 --> 00:38:58,284
And I think the whole world is now acknowledging that that's in free form.

580
00:38:58,844 --> 00:39:03,284
The words I'm hearing in my episode, global biodiversity loss.

581
00:39:03,964 --> 00:39:07,964
Now, desertification is only a symptom of that.

582
00:39:07,964 --> 00:39:11,624
without biodiversity loss, desertification doesn't occur.

583
00:39:12,884 --> 00:39:16,164
So that's leading to the symptom of desertification,

584
00:39:17,124 --> 00:39:21,204
non-effective rainfall, a term I coined in the 1960s,

585
00:39:21,384 --> 00:39:23,884
where your rainfall starts becoming non-effective

586
00:39:23,884 --> 00:39:26,004
and you start getting floods and droughts,

587
00:39:26,004 --> 00:39:27,784
even with no change in rainfall.

588
00:39:28,504 --> 00:39:34,264
That then leads to mega-fires burning at altitudes and latitudes

589
00:39:34,264 --> 00:39:36,144
where fires never burnt before.

590
00:39:36,144 --> 00:39:40,144
and these three now fuel climate change

591
00:39:40,144 --> 00:39:43,764
and now they're feeding on each other

592
00:39:43,764 --> 00:39:46,224
in a spiral that's virtually out of control.

593
00:39:47,144 --> 00:39:49,404
Now, that is the problem.

594
00:39:50,004 --> 00:39:51,704
Now, if you're going to break that cycle,

595
00:39:51,824 --> 00:39:54,964
if you look at the world's scientific community,

596
00:39:55,144 --> 00:39:57,304
how they're trying to break it at the atmospheric level

597
00:39:57,304 --> 00:40:00,504
of excess carbon, greenhouse gases, etc.

598
00:40:00,744 --> 00:40:02,444
You cannot break it at that level.

599
00:40:02,524 --> 00:40:04,624
You can only break it by addressing the cause.

600
00:40:04,624 --> 00:40:08,304
and the cause starts with biodiversity loss.

601
00:40:09,864 --> 00:40:12,664
And what we are calling climate change today

602
00:40:12,664 --> 00:40:17,164
began roughly between 50 and 100,000 years ago.

603
00:40:17,784 --> 00:40:19,344
We weren't using fossil fuels.

604
00:40:21,244 --> 00:40:24,504
That's a late come-up that helped accelerate the curve.

605
00:40:25,424 --> 00:40:29,864
All right, so now I'm very hopeful, very hopeful,

606
00:40:30,244 --> 00:40:32,564
if we can get the world to stop focusing

607
00:40:32,564 --> 00:40:34,784
on how we produce energy.

608
00:40:35,064 --> 00:40:37,844
Do we produce it from nuclear, fossil fuels,

609
00:40:38,444 --> 00:40:40,404
water, wind turbines?

610
00:40:40,604 --> 00:40:43,644
They're arguing about how to produce energy from nature.

611
00:40:44,304 --> 00:40:46,784
And if we can get people to stop arguing

612
00:40:46,784 --> 00:40:51,404
about should we produce food from farmers or corporations,

613
00:40:51,984 --> 00:40:55,004
biological sciences or chemicals,

614
00:40:55,544 --> 00:40:58,264
stop arguing about that because it's not the problem.

615
00:40:59,184 --> 00:41:01,504
So if we can get people to just focus on the problem,

616
00:41:01,504 --> 00:41:07,904
which is just how we manage humans, culture, our organizations,

617
00:41:08,604 --> 00:41:12,344
financing themselves, managing nature to produce everything.

618
00:41:13,604 --> 00:41:22,684
And when you focus on that, the problem becomes unbelievably simple to solve.

619
00:41:23,704 --> 00:41:25,664
So that gives me great hope.

620
00:41:25,664 --> 00:41:30,844
Now, why I give all the time I can to you or any other podcast

621
00:41:30,844 --> 00:41:34,184
is how do we get that message out to the public?

622
00:41:37,324 --> 00:41:39,024
Yeah, absolutely agree.

623
00:41:39,264 --> 00:41:42,044
And my question to that would be,

624
00:41:42,904 --> 00:41:46,604
using that framework you just gave

625
00:41:46,604 --> 00:41:48,524
about how we need to manage things better

626
00:41:48,524 --> 00:41:51,584
in the current institutional model

627
00:41:51,584 --> 00:41:53,584
is not getting us in the right direction,

628
00:41:54,264 --> 00:41:57,164
I'd be curious what you believe structurally

629
00:41:57,164 --> 00:41:59,064
would be the better direction to go.

630
00:41:59,064 --> 00:42:03,764
because we have all these government-funded institutions that seem to be not solving the

631
00:42:03,764 --> 00:42:08,704
problems as you're talking about. And coming from the Bitcoin world, we talk about this a lot,

632
00:42:08,784 --> 00:42:13,204
how all of these things that are really downstream from the central banking system and the money

633
00:42:13,204 --> 00:42:19,024
printer just don't seem to be solving the root problems. They seem to be masking things and

634
00:42:19,024 --> 00:42:22,724
going after symptoms, like you said, that never seem to move the needle.

635
00:42:22,724 --> 00:42:31,264
so what do you think would be the framework we should aspire to would it be more centralization

636
00:42:31,264 --> 00:42:35,164
of the institution so reform becomes easier you don't have to reform all these different

637
00:42:35,164 --> 00:42:42,364
organizations or do you think more decentralization more people creating their own homesteads starting

638
00:42:42,364 --> 00:42:48,084
their own farms and splintering it out even more just to bring it more to an individual level what

639
00:42:48,084 --> 00:42:49,744
What should we be looking for for the future?

640
00:42:50,284 --> 00:42:50,924
None of those.

641
00:42:53,104 --> 00:42:53,944
None of those.

642
00:42:54,084 --> 00:42:55,764
None of them address the cause of the problem.

643
00:42:56,644 --> 00:42:58,584
Okay, so let me try and explain that.

644
00:42:59,244 --> 00:43:00,504
It's simpler than that.

645
00:43:01,024 --> 00:43:05,364
You don't look for another framework for institutions, et cetera.

646
00:43:05,364 --> 00:43:10,544
Over thousands of years, we have found that beyond the human scale,

647
00:43:10,684 --> 00:43:13,724
that's you and I and everybody listening, managing their family,

648
00:43:13,864 --> 00:43:16,864
their small communities, maybe the little small family business,

649
00:43:16,864 --> 00:43:24,704
beyond that everything is done through organizations i've got a pencil here no human can

650
00:43:24,704 --> 00:43:29,384
make them virtually today they're made by corporation just a simple toothbrush i don't

651
00:43:29,384 --> 00:43:33,704
know anybody who can make them these days they're made by corporation everything is done by

652
00:43:33,704 --> 00:43:39,304
corporation we have to have them so don't try and look for another framework we need them

653
00:43:39,304 --> 00:43:45,744
now we'll never change the way that humans make decisions it's been like that for a million years

654
00:43:45,744 --> 00:43:50,084
it's exactly the same for every tool-using animal, don't try and change it.

655
00:43:51,364 --> 00:43:53,084
So what do we need to do?

656
00:43:53,404 --> 00:43:57,864
We just need our institutions, at which we manage at scale,

657
00:43:58,404 --> 00:44:03,124
to acknowledge that our institution itself is complex,

658
00:44:03,724 --> 00:44:09,824
and we are managing the institution with the economy and with nature to produce things.

659
00:44:09,824 --> 00:44:12,544
and once we acknowledge that

660
00:44:12,544 --> 00:44:15,324
and that institutions being complex

661
00:44:15,324 --> 00:44:18,384
have what we call wicked problems

662
00:44:18,384 --> 00:44:21,024
meaning extremely difficult to solve

663
00:44:21,024 --> 00:44:22,884
once we acknowledge that

664
00:44:22,884 --> 00:44:25,564
without anybody being held accountable

665
00:44:25,564 --> 00:44:35,648
blamed or anything of that sort start uniting as humans it becomes relatively easy to solve Now when institutions

666
00:44:36,648 --> 00:44:40,688
The problem when you form an institution, which you have to have,

667
00:44:40,768 --> 00:44:45,387
so I'm not against them, when you form them, they take a life of their own.

668
00:44:45,567 --> 00:44:47,427
No institution has emotion.

669
00:44:48,148 --> 00:44:50,407
No institution basically has common sense.

670
00:44:51,307 --> 00:44:54,768
Institutions find it almost impossible to ever admit error,

671
00:44:54,768 --> 00:45:02,087
whereas ordinary humans have all of those okay so it's an institution it's a legal entity

672
00:45:02,087 --> 00:45:10,087
it's not a human being the first institution corporation whatever political party uh that

673
00:45:10,087 --> 00:45:15,847
is treated as a human we will hang it when it poisons people or kills people how the hell do

674
00:45:15,847 --> 00:45:22,307
hang a company we don't we reward the senior people move them on and go on all right so so

675
00:45:22,307 --> 00:45:29,927
face that reality, don't deny it, and then come together and address what is causing the problem.

676
00:45:30,707 --> 00:45:36,948
And it is not a lack of goodwill. It's not bad people. There are bad people. There are

677
00:45:36,948 --> 00:45:45,627
people with ill will, but they're the minority. Most humans, I believe, are good, doing their best.

678
00:45:45,627 --> 00:45:48,067
I really believe that

679
00:45:48,067 --> 00:45:48,887
alright

680
00:45:48,887 --> 00:45:52,367
so when we come together

681
00:45:52,367 --> 00:45:55,668
and acknowledge what is causing the problem

682
00:45:55,668 --> 00:45:57,707
it is not any of these things

683
00:45:57,707 --> 00:45:58,807
as I say that we're blaming

684
00:45:58,807 --> 00:46:00,087
so now

685
00:46:00,087 --> 00:46:01,968
what is causing it

686
00:46:01,968 --> 00:46:04,127
and it is simply the way

687
00:46:04,127 --> 00:46:06,927
that all governments

688
00:46:06,927 --> 00:46:09,327
all environmental organizations

689
00:46:09,327 --> 00:46:11,407
all farming organizations

690
00:46:11,407 --> 00:46:13,648
all companies

691
00:46:13,648 --> 00:46:15,508
develop policy

692
00:46:15,508 --> 00:46:24,988
just change the way they develop policy and the exact same people produce a totally different

693
00:46:24,988 --> 00:46:35,268
result and we've done that over and over and over again so i'm curious what your thoughts are on how

694
00:46:35,268 --> 00:46:41,248
we fix that because i have my view and i'm in line with uh who we talked before we started recording

695
00:46:41,248 --> 00:46:45,188
i listened to your episode with safe adina moose the author of the bitcoin standard who i'm a very

696
00:46:45,188 --> 00:46:50,508
big fan of in the Bitcoin world, I think him and I would be aligned on this thinking that

697
00:46:50,508 --> 00:46:59,407
the reason why the policies we keep seeing come out are not what we would call good or

698
00:46:59,407 --> 00:47:07,047
solution seeking or root cause healing is because there is that financial beast in the background

699
00:47:07,047 --> 00:47:13,127
that is causing misincentives where people in those positions are often there just to

700
00:47:13,127 --> 00:47:17,347
get free money for themselves and profit themselves. We look at the politicians today,

701
00:47:17,347 --> 00:47:21,448
they're all super rich, way more than their salaries. So they're finding ways to...

702
00:47:22,287 --> 00:47:26,887
Can I interject you there? Of course. Yeah. Do you see how you're getting into blaming?

703
00:47:28,527 --> 00:47:36,488
You're blaming politicians. Stop it. We've got to stop blaming each other. Now, when you're saying

704
00:47:36,488 --> 00:47:38,387
it's because of the economic component.

705
00:47:39,268 --> 00:47:40,787
Don't repeat history.

706
00:47:41,387 --> 00:47:43,148
Remember that we had economies

707
00:47:43,148 --> 00:47:46,587
for thousands of years

708
00:47:46,587 --> 00:47:50,188
where the currency first was just barter

709
00:47:50,188 --> 00:47:53,427
and then it was cowrie shells or whatever.

710
00:47:54,867 --> 00:47:56,268
And it still went wrong.

711
00:47:56,867 --> 00:47:58,387
That's not the problem.

712
00:47:59,107 --> 00:48:01,827
So don't stop keep barking up the wrong tree.

713
00:48:02,927 --> 00:48:04,067
Just face the problem.

714
00:48:04,188 --> 00:48:05,127
Now, what is the problem?

715
00:48:05,648 --> 00:48:09,367
The problem is the way that the organizations develop policy.

716
00:48:09,907 --> 00:48:11,727
So let me try and illustrate that.

717
00:48:12,188 --> 00:48:14,427
And again, anybody can tell me if I'm wrong.

718
00:48:14,827 --> 00:48:23,367
If a political party decides to develop an agricultural policy, which is vital, okay, how does it do so?

719
00:48:23,367 --> 00:48:30,627
The leader of the party, if they're very progressive, whatever, it doesn't matter whether it's a tradership, one party or a multi-party state,

720
00:48:30,627 --> 00:48:34,607
What they do is they decide to develop it.

721
00:48:35,047 --> 00:48:38,127
They're meeting a need, a desire, or solving a problem.

722
00:48:38,587 --> 00:48:38,907
Do you see?

723
00:48:39,287 --> 00:48:40,948
They're using human decision-making.

724
00:48:41,668 --> 00:48:44,847
So now to solve this problem of bad agriculture

725
00:48:44,847 --> 00:48:49,627
or this need for better agriculture, etc.,

726
00:48:50,347 --> 00:48:53,127
they'll pull together specialists and experts

727
00:48:53,127 --> 00:48:55,968
to advise the politicians, the political leader.

728
00:48:56,648 --> 00:48:59,047
Now, all of these specialists and experts

729
00:48:59,047 --> 00:49:08,948
who are pulled together, how many will be paying their own salaries? None. Virtually none.

730
00:49:10,288 --> 00:49:16,387
They will all represent corporations, companies, universities, environmental organizations,

731
00:49:17,087 --> 00:49:22,567
institutions, and these are the heads of them or the top people in them. All right, so that's good.

732
00:49:22,567 --> 00:49:28,567
You're bringing all the institutions and the people with the expertise together. Now, think

733
00:49:28,567 --> 00:49:37,907
about this for a moment. What is the first priority of the political party? It is to finance itself.

734
00:49:37,907 --> 00:49:44,948
If the party runs out of money, it's dead. What's its second priority? Keep support of people,

735
00:49:45,527 --> 00:49:54,488
etc. What's its third priority? It has to stay in power at any cost. What's its fourth priority?

736
00:49:54,488 --> 00:49:56,527
the interests of the citizens.

737
00:49:58,448 --> 00:50:01,168
All right, so the party convening this,

738
00:50:01,607 --> 00:50:03,427
its fourth interest is the citizens.

739
00:50:04,168 --> 00:50:07,407
Now, all the institutions brought with their experts

740
00:50:07,407 --> 00:50:11,047
to develop the policy, first point,

741
00:50:12,007 --> 00:50:15,648
all of them are experts in forms of production,

742
00:50:16,507 --> 00:50:17,867
energy, food, whatever.

743
00:50:19,367 --> 00:50:22,807
Are any of them experts in how to simultaneously

744
00:50:22,807 --> 00:50:28,107
manage the complex of humans, culture, institutions, economy, and nature.

745
00:50:30,407 --> 00:50:33,527
So we have no experts in what is required.

746
00:50:34,327 --> 00:50:37,887
Now, all of them coming represent institutions.

747
00:50:38,327 --> 00:50:40,387
Let's say there might be one person there who doesn't.

748
00:50:41,748 --> 00:50:45,168
Now, what's the first concern of that institution?

749
00:50:45,827 --> 00:50:46,807
Finance itself.

750
00:50:47,427 --> 00:50:48,607
What's its second concern?

751
00:50:49,067 --> 00:50:49,587
Support.

752
00:50:50,207 --> 00:50:51,847
What's its third concern?

753
00:50:52,807 --> 00:50:56,907
If you're lucky, if it's a corporation, it may be market dominance or whatever.

754
00:50:57,527 --> 00:51:02,087
If you're lucky, the third concern or the fourth concern will be citizen interests.

755
00:51:02,668 --> 00:51:11,867
So every party developing that policy, their third or their fourth concern is the interests of the citizens, including their own families.

756
00:51:12,948 --> 00:51:14,807
Now do you see why policy is not working?

757
00:51:14,807 --> 00:51:24,387
so when we develop policy using the holistic framework i can't go into here but we neutralize

758
00:51:24,387 --> 00:51:33,067
all of this without anybody feeling blamed responsible anything like that i literally

759
00:51:33,067 --> 00:51:42,668
hate blaming anybody or condemning anybody what i do do is to condemn how institutions behave

760
00:51:42,668 --> 00:51:45,748
because if we don't face that, we're doomed.

761
00:51:47,268 --> 00:51:52,047
Now, when I say that, let me illustrate it with an example

762
00:51:52,047 --> 00:51:53,627
that happened to me a while back.

763
00:51:53,907 --> 00:51:56,627
I was talking to two young men in my own country.

764
00:51:58,347 --> 00:51:59,988
They have grown up in the country.

765
00:52:00,127 --> 00:52:02,327
They've seen me over years struggling.

766
00:52:03,168 --> 00:52:05,107
And they made a statement to me.

767
00:52:05,188 --> 00:52:06,988
They said, Alan, you're doing something wrong.

768
00:52:07,607 --> 00:52:09,407
They said, we've watched all our lives.

769
00:52:09,407 --> 00:52:20,327
your message is so simple, so clear, and yet we've seen you facing constant obstruction and rejection, etc.

770
00:52:20,567 --> 00:52:23,268
So you're clearly doing something wrong.

771
00:52:23,367 --> 00:52:25,207
And I said, you guys, you're all right.

772
00:52:25,788 --> 00:52:29,327
And I said, I've had many people tell me that over the last 60 years.

773
00:52:29,847 --> 00:52:31,927
I've had nobody tell me how to do it right.

774
00:52:34,107 --> 00:52:38,547
So we're trying to put two new heretical concepts into society.

775
00:52:38,547 --> 00:52:41,648
and I said but anyway how are you guys doing

776
00:52:41,648 --> 00:52:43,268
and they said what do you mean

777
00:52:43,268 --> 00:52:44,607
we're not managing anything

778
00:52:44,607 --> 00:52:46,648
and I said how are you doing

779
00:52:46,648 --> 00:52:48,847
and they said we don't understand you

780
00:52:48,847 --> 00:52:51,268
and I said well by the look of you

781
00:52:51,268 --> 00:52:52,367
you look like Christians

782
00:52:52,367 --> 00:52:55,127
are you and they said yes

783
00:52:55,127 --> 00:52:57,507
and I said what did your founder have to say

784
00:52:57,507 --> 00:52:59,527
didn't he talk about

785
00:52:59,527 --> 00:53:00,587
love and caring

786
00:53:00,587 --> 00:53:02,007
isn't that simple

787
00:53:02,007 --> 00:53:04,748
over 2000 years

788
00:53:04,748 --> 00:53:06,188
how many millions

789
00:53:06,188 --> 00:53:08,367
of Christians, families

790
00:53:08,367 --> 00:53:11,547
people have been capable of love and caring for each other.

791
00:53:12,188 --> 00:53:13,268
Millions and millions.

792
00:53:13,748 --> 00:53:16,327
What happened when you managed religion at scale?

793
00:53:17,367 --> 00:53:21,327
You formed well over 2,000 Christian churches

794
00:53:21,327 --> 00:53:24,527
and you've been fighting each other, going to war.

795
00:53:24,727 --> 00:53:26,847
It was Christians who carried out the Holocaust.

796
00:53:28,227 --> 00:53:31,988
You've had major religions protecting pedophile priests.

797
00:53:32,607 --> 00:53:33,887
Is this what your founder said?

798
00:53:34,788 --> 00:53:37,027
I said, you guys aren't doing any better than I am.

799
00:53:37,027 --> 00:53:42,988
and I think at that point they got it. Our institutions, we have to have them,

800
00:53:43,448 --> 00:53:46,448
but we have to start facing the fact that they're not human.

801
00:53:51,527 --> 00:53:57,807
I'm trying to figure out what is your path to fixing those institutional problems.

802
00:53:58,768 --> 00:54:05,027
I certainly want to agree that I don't mean to blame the people within them as bad people.

803
00:54:05,027 --> 00:54:08,007
These are just people that are following their incentives that they're given.

804
00:54:08,867 --> 00:54:12,307
And I try to look more at the system itself as the issue.

805
00:54:12,968 --> 00:54:21,688
And so from your framework that, you know, we do need these institutions, we just need to, you know, scale them differently in a more holistic way.

806
00:54:21,688 --> 00:54:24,607
Like you said, how would you summarize the better way to do that?

807
00:54:24,727 --> 00:54:26,567
No, I didn't actually say that.

808
00:54:26,707 --> 00:54:28,327
We can't scale them differently.

809
00:54:28,488 --> 00:54:31,547
We don't need to do things in a more holistic way.

810
00:54:31,547 --> 00:54:38,748
you know people thought more holistically for centuries old cultures aboriginal cultures

811
00:54:38,748 --> 00:54:46,148
native american cultures it didn't help them it's how humans make decisions i keep stressing that

812
00:54:46,148 --> 00:54:53,367
all right so we need our institutions and as i said just now um if uh if i could wave magic wand

813
00:54:53,367 --> 00:55:00,107
just be to get one statesman leader of any country to just say i'm going to carry on governing as i

814
00:55:00,107 --> 00:55:02,607
I'm a politician, contact risk.

815
00:55:02,948 --> 00:55:06,027
But concurrently, I'm going to have my experts,

816
00:55:06,268 --> 00:55:08,027
my people, our country,

817
00:55:08,627 --> 00:55:11,748
develop policy in the way Alan's talking about.

818
00:55:12,107 --> 00:55:14,648
You just get to say every institute to facilitate it.

819
00:55:15,007 --> 00:55:16,288
They won't develop the policy.

820
00:55:16,427 --> 00:55:20,327
They'll just facilitate how you manage the complexity

821
00:55:20,327 --> 00:55:23,927
of humans, institutions, economy, and nature

822
00:55:23,927 --> 00:55:28,148
to produce food or to produce energy or whatever.

823
00:55:28,148 --> 00:55:33,507
that would be my wish and then the whole world could say oh my goodness this is not difficult

824
00:55:33,507 --> 00:55:40,507
we're all complicating it we're all talking about the wrong issues we're all and i don't

825
00:55:40,507 --> 00:55:45,347
repeat everything well we're talking about how to produce not how to manage

826
00:55:45,347 --> 00:55:52,567
yeah i think that's a really good way to transition into what your organization is

827
00:55:52,567 --> 00:55:57,488
doing the savory institute just going through this website you can see it has so much on there

828
00:55:57,488 --> 00:56:04,067
has so much information, education, online resources, podcasts, history, like all these

829
00:56:04,067 --> 00:56:09,227
things are so helpful for people. So how do you see the Savory Institute coming in and being part

830
00:56:09,227 --> 00:56:13,547
of this solution? What's your vision for it, where it is now, where it's been and what you see in the

831
00:56:13,547 --> 00:56:24,748
future for it? Well, we took a decision 15 years ago, and we felt that getting the world to accept

832
00:56:24,748 --> 00:56:29,768
the whole package would be a little bit complicated.

833
00:56:29,988 --> 00:56:34,067
So why don't we focus on the area of the world

834
00:56:34,067 --> 00:56:36,288
where the problems are the greatest?

835
00:56:36,527 --> 00:56:38,788
In other words, the desertifying areas,

836
00:56:38,948 --> 00:56:41,567
which is the grasslands, savannas, etc.

837
00:56:41,567 --> 00:56:45,707
Because it is the droughts, floods, desertification

838
00:56:45,707 --> 00:56:50,387
that's leading to most of the emigration, wars, violence,

839
00:56:50,867 --> 00:56:54,127
changing the whole political face of Europe, etc.

840
00:56:54,127 --> 00:57:09,448
So why don't we focus on that? And that has been our focus for 15 years. And through that, gradually influence public opinion through successes, results, etc. until policy changes.

841
00:57:09,448 --> 00:57:17,668
so we've done that for 15 years with remarkable success and we've made more progress i believe

842
00:57:17,668 --> 00:57:25,227
than i've ever known in history where two new concepts contrary to all human belief are involved

843
00:57:25,227 --> 00:57:32,567
um so now we are facing the fact that after 15 years we need to review

844
00:57:32,567 --> 00:57:38,988
that strategy and just see are we still on the right path and uh after we've done that perhaps

845
00:57:38,988 --> 00:57:40,327
I could answer your question better.

846
00:57:40,968 --> 00:57:43,407
At the moment, I can only give you my personal view,

847
00:57:43,488 --> 00:57:45,587
but we haven't worked on it as a team yet.

848
00:57:46,248 --> 00:57:49,907
My personal view is that if we trim the rudder a little bit,

849
00:57:50,547 --> 00:57:54,748
we can direct that and get even faster results.

850
00:57:55,307 --> 00:57:57,168
But let's wait and see what comes out.

851
00:57:57,168 --> 00:58:03,727
I think what we're doing, as I said, has made great progress,

852
00:58:04,047 --> 00:58:05,227
but with a little trimming,

853
00:58:05,227 --> 00:58:09,867
we could focus more on the policy side of things

854
00:58:09,867 --> 00:58:14,387
and less on the management of the grasslands alone,

855
00:58:14,968 --> 00:58:17,227
which has sort of boxed us in as the people

856
00:58:17,227 --> 00:58:20,668
that are all about cattle and wildlife and grasslands.

857
00:58:20,668 --> 00:58:21,567
No, we're not.

858
00:58:21,748 --> 00:58:24,627
We're about managing people's lives holistically.

859
00:58:25,688 --> 00:58:28,227
And no way does that I get that brought out better

860
00:58:28,227 --> 00:58:30,907
than my wife and I went to a book signing

861
00:58:30,907 --> 00:58:33,047
after I'd written the first,

862
00:58:33,047 --> 00:58:35,207
or we'd written the first edition of our textbook.

863
00:58:35,807 --> 00:58:38,027
And we went to Australia for a book signing.

864
00:58:38,627 --> 00:58:42,427
I had trained two Australians who had gone back training many,

865
00:58:42,867 --> 00:58:46,907
and we were met by over 300 people at this book signing

866
00:58:46,907 --> 00:58:49,067
from every state except Tasmania.

867
00:58:50,027 --> 00:58:53,807
And what I liked was the number that came up and thanked me,

868
00:58:54,367 --> 00:58:58,007
and I liked that, but not for saving their farm,

869
00:58:58,007 --> 00:58:59,627
not for improving the land.

870
00:58:59,627 --> 00:59:03,507
What I liked was they came and thanked me for saving their family.

871
00:59:05,027 --> 00:59:08,707
Because managing holistically is all about managing our lives,

872
00:59:09,307 --> 00:59:11,488
not about managing grasslands.

873
00:59:11,668 --> 00:59:13,367
You cannot manage land.

874
00:59:15,148 --> 00:59:18,768
It cannot be divided from the culture, the people, the economy.

875
00:59:19,188 --> 00:59:19,988
They're inseparable.

876
00:59:22,387 --> 00:59:27,227
I love that, and I completely agree that this is so important

877
00:59:27,227 --> 00:59:33,007
that we reconnect back with nature using this holistic mindset in all aspects of our lives.

878
00:59:33,007 --> 00:59:38,367
And there's nowhere that you shouldn't be thinking holistically long term.

879
00:59:39,887 --> 00:59:42,807
Work along with nature and everything that you do 100%.

880
00:59:42,807 --> 00:59:47,927
And it's so awesome to see more people coming to that conclusion through all sorts of different

881
00:59:47,927 --> 00:59:48,327
fields.

882
00:59:48,448 --> 00:59:50,668
It doesn't really even like Bitcoin, like we talked about.

883
00:59:50,748 --> 00:59:55,448
Bitcoin is a very different entry point than where you came from, for example.

884
00:59:55,448 --> 01:00:00,248
but we're still coming to the same conclusion that we really need to work with nature here.

885
01:00:00,327 --> 01:00:06,468
We need to stop trying to fight these natural laws we see all around us and think holistically,

886
01:00:06,688 --> 01:00:12,927
like you said. So what would be the main call to action for the people out there that are looking

887
01:00:12,927 --> 01:00:19,087
for ways to become more holistic in how they present themselves in this world and how they

888
01:00:19,087 --> 01:00:24,268
raise families and just go about their daily lives in a holistic way?

889
01:00:25,448 --> 01:00:30,327
And, you know, you and I are representing the whole struggle right now

890
01:00:30,327 --> 01:00:34,107
between you and I trying to communicate as adults.

891
01:00:34,768 --> 01:00:40,547
And nothing, I've never found anything blocks learning except two things.

892
01:00:40,668 --> 01:00:43,107
I've never, ever known ignorance block learning.

893
01:00:43,768 --> 01:00:49,047
I've only found what we already know as adults blocks learning and our egos.

894
01:00:49,547 --> 01:00:49,948
All right.

895
01:00:49,968 --> 01:00:52,768
And you and I are both adults and we both have egos.

896
01:00:53,268 --> 01:00:54,067
So we're human.

897
01:00:54,668 --> 01:01:02,427
Now, nothing I've said indicates that we should change our thinking.

898
01:01:04,027 --> 01:01:06,488
You've said we should have a different mindset.

899
01:01:06,768 --> 01:01:07,867
We should think holistically.

900
01:01:08,067 --> 01:01:09,948
You've said that in several different ways.

901
01:01:10,547 --> 01:01:11,547
Man, I never said that.

902
01:01:12,407 --> 01:01:15,788
I said we have to change the way we make management decisions.

903
01:01:16,727 --> 01:01:18,307
You see, that's a totally different thing.

904
01:01:18,307 --> 01:01:22,007
And I'm not blaming you because you're an adult.

905
01:01:22,148 --> 01:01:23,688
You're relating it to what you know.

906
01:01:24,067 --> 01:01:25,788
Bitcoin, Bitcoin, and so on.

907
01:01:26,288 --> 01:01:26,507
All right?

908
01:01:27,227 --> 01:01:33,367
Remember that for thousands of years, at least 100,000 years,

909
01:01:34,047 --> 01:01:37,788
early cultures saw their connection to nature.

910
01:01:38,527 --> 01:01:42,467
It's only a recent Western culture disconnect from nature.

911
01:01:42,467 --> 01:01:47,567
So Native American Indians, we know in latter generations,

912
01:01:47,948 --> 01:01:52,407
long after the early people, saw that connection,

913
01:01:52,407 --> 01:01:57,347
and they tried to make decisions, management decisions in the tribe,

914
01:01:57,748 --> 01:02:00,867
seven generations, thinking seven generations ahead.

915
01:02:01,387 --> 01:02:06,148
Go to Australia, the Aborigines, I mean, they've got ceremonies, everything.

916
01:02:06,308 --> 01:02:07,768
They're just tied to nature.

917
01:02:08,367 --> 01:02:10,587
Go to all the pastoral tribes.

918
01:02:10,808 --> 01:02:11,507
They're livestock.

919
01:02:11,948 --> 01:02:13,808
They are part of nature.

920
01:02:14,328 --> 01:02:15,288
It didn't help them.

921
01:02:16,328 --> 01:02:19,867
The whole of Australia was being turned into a desert

922
01:02:19,867 --> 01:02:24,207
by those same people knowing, believing, thinking holistically.

923
01:02:24,688 --> 01:02:29,168
It's not going to help us at all if people just think holistically.

924
01:02:29,527 --> 01:02:32,448
We have to address the cause of the problem.

925
01:02:33,207 --> 01:02:37,867
And that is the way humans make management decisions, period.

926
01:02:39,087 --> 01:02:41,067
And anything I say after that, I'm just repeating.

927
01:02:43,788 --> 01:02:44,688
But I cannot...

928
01:02:44,688 --> 01:02:48,768
How does one take that management to their daily routine?

929
01:02:48,768 --> 01:02:52,328
How do they apply this to their lives in the best way?

930
01:02:52,607 --> 01:02:53,828
Oh, it's so easy.

931
01:02:54,067 --> 01:02:56,227
I mean, I'll give you one example.

932
01:02:56,487 --> 01:02:57,527
I use it often.

933
01:02:58,288 --> 01:03:01,448
My wife and I had a woman come from Africa.

934
01:03:02,188 --> 01:03:07,087
At the time, it was funded by Ford Foundation and supported by the government there.

935
01:03:07,407 --> 01:03:13,567
And she came as part of six Zimbabweans for six months training with me in New Mexico.

936
01:03:13,867 --> 01:03:16,587
And she stayed with my wife and I with her son.

937
01:03:16,587 --> 01:03:18,507
She was a single mother with a son.

938
01:03:18,768 --> 01:03:21,248
And so she was learning how to manage her list,

939
01:03:21,248 --> 01:03:24,967
agreed to take this back to teach people in the villages, et cetera.

940
01:03:25,587 --> 01:03:29,768
And one day she said to me, but couldn't I do this in my own life?

941
01:03:29,847 --> 01:03:30,707
And I said, of course you can.

942
01:03:31,367 --> 01:03:32,268
Let me help you.

943
01:03:32,587 --> 01:03:36,707
So we sat by the dining room table, and I just said,

944
01:03:37,107 --> 01:03:38,887
how do you want your life to be?

945
01:03:40,328 --> 01:03:42,748
Because remember, she's going to make all her decisions

946
01:03:42,748 --> 01:03:46,027
against needs, desires, problems, and you can't do that.

947
01:03:46,027 --> 01:03:52,587
you have to have a holistic context for your life to tie your life to your life-supporting

948
01:03:52,587 --> 01:03:57,248
environment. So I just said to her, how do you want your life to be? You're a single mother.

949
01:03:58,047 --> 01:04:04,148
Does anybody make your management decisions for you? No. Does anybody have veto power over

950
01:04:04,148 --> 01:04:10,087
management decisions in your life? She said, no. I said, then it's you and your son. Okay,

951
01:04:10,087 --> 01:04:15,828
so we've got it. Now, how do you want your life to be? And I just got her to lay that out

952
01:04:15,828 --> 01:04:22,467
write it on a paper. If she put any action, any decision already made, no, that's out of order.

953
01:04:22,987 --> 01:04:29,407
You cannot have an action, a prejudice, a decision already made in the holistic context to guide

954
01:04:29,407 --> 01:04:36,567
your management. It is a holistic context. And so when she had done that, I said, no,

955
01:04:36,627 --> 01:04:41,087
you don't manage land, but everything you eat, everything you consume, everything you throw out

956
01:04:41,087 --> 01:04:44,987
goes back to the environment. So how would the environment have to be

957
01:04:44,987 --> 01:04:48,707
generally for your great-great-great-grandson

958
01:04:48,707 --> 01:04:52,967
and daughters to live a life like you want to? Well, we

959
01:04:52,967 --> 01:04:57,148
started to describe clean air, drinkable water from the rivers, blah, blah, blah.

960
01:04:58,148 --> 01:05:01,067
High biodiversity, stability, productivity of

961
01:05:01,067 --> 01:05:05,067
land, blah, blah, blah. Generically. And then at the end of that

962
01:05:05,067 --> 01:05:08,987
I said, okay, now you're employed. People employ you.

963
01:05:08,987 --> 01:05:11,668
how can you make

964
01:05:11,668 --> 01:05:13,788
them want to employ you forever

965
01:05:13,788 --> 01:05:16,127
how can you make them want to come to your help

966
01:05:16,127 --> 01:05:17,027
at any time

967
01:05:17,027 --> 01:05:19,847
how can you make your friends really support you

968
01:05:19,847 --> 01:05:21,668
can you change any of them

969
01:05:21,668 --> 01:05:23,027
no you can't

970
01:05:23,027 --> 01:05:24,207
I said okay so

971
01:05:24,207 --> 01:05:26,847
how are you going to have to be

972
01:05:26,847 --> 01:05:29,248
because at the end of the day

973
01:05:29,248 --> 01:05:30,607
you're judged by your behaviour

974
01:05:30,607 --> 01:05:33,427
not your brand, not your marketing, not your words

975
01:05:33,427 --> 01:05:34,788
end of the day

976
01:05:34,788 --> 01:05:37,788
every one of us is judged by our behaviour

977
01:05:37,788 --> 01:05:38,967
so I just said

978
01:05:38,967 --> 01:05:41,347
how are you going to have to be?

979
01:05:42,448 --> 01:05:44,308
And I got her to describe that.

980
01:05:44,927 --> 01:05:46,067
And then I said, that's it.

981
01:05:46,527 --> 01:05:51,027
Now just begin making your life in that context, holistic context.

982
01:05:51,847 --> 01:05:55,887
And about a week later, she came to me very excited and she said,

983
01:05:55,967 --> 01:05:56,867
hell, this works.

984
01:05:57,328 --> 01:05:58,188
And I said, what happened?

985
01:05:58,727 --> 01:06:01,527
And she said, I went with my son to the supermarket shopping,

986
01:06:02,207 --> 01:06:07,727
went around the aisles loading the cart,

987
01:06:07,727 --> 01:06:09,847
I got to the checkout counter

988
01:06:09,847 --> 01:06:11,207
there were six people ahead of me

989
01:06:11,207 --> 01:06:12,308
so I had to wait

990
01:06:12,308 --> 01:06:14,047
and while I was waiting

991
01:06:14,047 --> 01:06:15,527
I looked at my shopping list

992
01:06:15,527 --> 01:06:17,027
and I suddenly thought

993
01:06:17,027 --> 01:06:19,587
everything was ticked off

994
01:06:19,587 --> 01:06:21,967
need, desire, need, need

995
01:06:21,967 --> 01:06:23,607
desire, desire, desire

996
01:06:23,607 --> 01:06:24,867
and she said

997
01:06:24,867 --> 01:06:25,907
oh my goodness

998
01:06:25,907 --> 01:06:27,907
I thought of the holistic context

999
01:06:27,907 --> 01:06:28,788
for my life

1000
01:06:28,788 --> 01:06:32,188
and my importance of education

1001
01:06:32,188 --> 01:06:32,927
of my son

1002
01:06:32,927 --> 01:06:35,707
and the things that are real value to me

1003
01:06:35,707 --> 01:06:38,248
and she said I sheepishly went back and put

1004
01:06:38,248 --> 01:06:39,567
half the things on the shelf

1005
01:06:39,567 --> 01:06:42,047
that is managing

1006
01:06:42,047 --> 01:06:54,531
holistically it not about managing land it about managing our lives and that a great example using just the different

1007
01:06:54,531 --> 01:06:58,571
things you're purchasing and spending your energy and money

1008
01:06:58,571 --> 01:07:02,571
toward in your life and one of the programs I know that you have

1009
01:07:02,571 --> 01:07:06,611
is the land to market program within Savory Institute

1010
01:07:06,611 --> 01:07:10,631
so I'd love to hear more about this because this is something that everyone should be

1011
01:07:10,631 --> 01:07:17,211
looking at how do we really connect ourselves more closely to these regenerative practices and

1012
01:07:17,211 --> 01:07:21,591
regenerative food production methods. Could you tell me a little bit more about this

1013
01:07:21,591 --> 01:07:24,431
land-to-market program and what it's doing, how it's helping people?

1014
01:07:25,371 --> 01:07:36,251
Yeah, what that basically is, is we're trying to influence the public, corporations, everything,

1015
01:07:36,251 --> 01:07:41,791
through showing that if people manage their lives holistically

1016
01:07:41,791 --> 01:07:44,851
and they're also managing a farm or ranch or whatever,

1017
01:07:45,691 --> 01:07:51,611
that that product is absolutely sound environmentally.

1018
01:07:51,611 --> 01:07:54,831
It's not doing any cultural damage, any economic damage,

1019
01:07:54,991 --> 01:07:58,731
environmental damage, right from the source, the producer,

1020
01:07:59,111 --> 01:08:04,471
to the end consumer and trying to show land to market

1021
01:08:04,471 --> 01:08:11,051
that every link of that chain is sound to the best of our knowledge,

1022
01:08:11,291 --> 01:08:12,371
documented, et cetera.

1023
01:08:12,511 --> 01:08:13,871
That's what that is.

1024
01:08:14,011 --> 01:08:16,531
And so it's a great idea and concept.

1025
01:08:16,691 --> 01:08:19,451
I'm not involved in it, but as part of the organization,

1026
01:08:19,671 --> 01:08:20,911
I know that's going on.

1027
01:08:20,911 --> 01:08:25,651
And then we've got another one, environmental monitoring.

1028
01:08:26,431 --> 01:08:32,831
And again, just try and monitor and establish that the environment

1029
01:08:32,831 --> 01:08:36,211
is actually really improving

1030
01:08:36,211 --> 01:08:40,031
and to document that for various end producers,

1031
01:08:40,251 --> 01:08:42,251
consumers, etc.

1032
01:08:42,791 --> 01:08:44,251
So, yeah, these will go on.

1033
01:08:44,291 --> 01:08:46,631
But they're all still associated

1034
01:08:46,631 --> 01:08:51,751
with the management of farming agriculture

1035
01:08:51,751 --> 01:08:54,771
and good.

1036
01:08:55,431 --> 01:08:57,871
But at the end of the day, as we said earlier,

1037
01:08:58,451 --> 01:09:00,211
we still are going to have to return

1038
01:09:00,211 --> 01:09:01,951
to addressing the cause of the problem,

1039
01:09:01,951 --> 01:09:06,371
which is how the institutions develop policy

1040
01:09:06,371 --> 01:09:08,611
because we're working at these levels

1041
01:09:08,611 --> 01:09:11,251
but global finance

1042
01:09:11,251 --> 01:09:14,751
and you're part of that with your Bitcoin, etc.

1043
01:09:14,911 --> 01:09:17,151
is driving environmental destruction.

1044
01:09:18,091 --> 01:09:20,351
So on the farm level, let's call it

1045
01:09:20,351 --> 01:09:23,071
or the pastoralist level, the human level

1046
01:09:23,071 --> 01:09:25,071
we can only do the best we can

1047
01:09:25,071 --> 01:09:27,211
to manage our families, our communities

1048
01:09:27,211 --> 01:09:29,551
and our economy

1049
01:09:29,551 --> 01:09:32,871
and nature to produce the food we do,

1050
01:09:33,471 --> 01:09:35,971
but we're operating in this global economy

1051
01:09:35,971 --> 01:09:38,351
that is driving environmental disruption.

1052
01:09:39,171 --> 01:09:41,951
So when we do holistic financial planning,

1053
01:09:42,071 --> 01:09:46,031
which is part of the framework that we use,

1054
01:09:46,591 --> 01:09:48,931
we actually distinguish the sources of money.

1055
01:09:49,051 --> 01:09:50,471
So you might want to go and look at that,

1056
01:09:50,571 --> 01:09:51,891
being interested in Bitcoin,

1057
01:09:52,591 --> 01:09:55,811
because what we have is when people are investing

1058
01:09:55,811 --> 01:09:57,471
in the business, investing in the farm,

1059
01:09:57,871 --> 01:09:59,031
producing money, whatever,

1060
01:09:59,031 --> 01:10:15,871
We're dealing with money. And when management decisions are made, we just have some precautionary steps there to avoid addictive use of wrong forms of money, because that leads to bankruptcy and all sorts of things.

1061
01:10:15,871 --> 01:10:23,371
And so we, without being judgmental on them, we identify three forms of money, if you like.

1062
01:10:24,351 --> 01:10:28,951
And one is what we call a mineral dollar.

1063
01:10:29,491 --> 01:10:36,571
That means that the source of that wealth or money is coming from a non-renewable resource.

1064
01:10:37,771 --> 01:10:40,451
It'll run out at some time, theoretically.

1065
01:10:41,531 --> 01:10:41,771
Okay.

1066
01:10:42,371 --> 01:10:45,431
Not good or bad, but acknowledge the source.

1067
01:10:45,871 --> 01:10:48,931
And then the other is a paper dollar.

1068
01:10:49,711 --> 01:10:53,171
So the source of this is just nothing.

1069
01:10:54,111 --> 01:10:54,771
Create it.

1070
01:10:55,551 --> 01:10:55,991
Print it.

1071
01:10:56,871 --> 01:10:57,331
Bitcoin.

1072
01:10:58,251 --> 01:10:58,811
Paper dollar.

1073
01:10:58,971 --> 01:10:59,431
Paper money.

1074
01:11:00,291 --> 01:11:00,511
Okay?

1075
01:11:00,631 --> 01:11:01,791
So that's the source of it.

1076
01:11:02,791 --> 01:11:05,471
There's no substance to it except confidence.

1077
01:11:05,971 --> 01:11:08,651
If the public lose confidence, it has no value.

1078
01:11:09,331 --> 01:11:12,751
And you can create trillions of dollars overnight or lose them overnight.

1079
01:11:13,891 --> 01:11:14,091
All right?

1080
01:11:14,091 --> 01:11:16,671
So not good or bad, just acknowledge the source.

1081
01:11:17,591 --> 01:11:22,251
And then the third is what we call a solar dollar,

1082
01:11:22,851 --> 01:11:25,851
because without agriculture, you cannot have a choir,

1083
01:11:25,991 --> 01:11:28,851
you cannot have an orchestra, you can't have a church,

1084
01:11:28,851 --> 01:11:30,711
you can't have a government, you can't have an army,

1085
01:11:30,891 --> 01:11:31,911
you can't have a university,

1086
01:11:32,511 --> 01:11:35,051
you can't have any business in the world sustainable,

1087
01:11:35,331 --> 01:11:38,371
you can't have any economy in the world that will ever be sustainable

1088
01:11:38,371 --> 01:11:39,691
without agriculture.

1089
01:11:39,691 --> 01:11:47,171
all right so ultimately ultimately the economy needs to be based on the photosynthetic process

1090
01:11:47,171 --> 01:11:54,231
food all right so the third form of dollars would be called a solar dollar now in managing the

1091
01:11:54,231 --> 01:12:00,171
business the farm whatever we simply get people to acknowledge the source of the money are they

1092
01:12:00,171 --> 01:12:05,951
borrowing it is it a grant where is it coming from and the pattern of use because if you're using it

1093
01:12:05,951 --> 01:12:07,891
once only to build infrastructure,

1094
01:12:08,451 --> 01:12:11,211
it might be right in line with your holistic context.

1095
01:12:11,811 --> 01:12:13,271
If you're using it,

1096
01:12:13,331 --> 01:12:17,091
but it's going to be a repeated use,

1097
01:12:18,051 --> 01:12:19,951
that's not so good.

1098
01:12:21,371 --> 01:12:22,411
It might be.

1099
01:12:22,691 --> 01:12:24,311
So you need to look at that very carefully.

1100
01:12:24,851 --> 01:12:28,111
And then if you are using something like, say, a paper dollar,

1101
01:12:28,111 --> 01:12:29,971
and it's addictive,

1102
01:12:30,571 --> 01:12:32,151
with compound interest,

1103
01:12:32,531 --> 01:12:33,131
God help you.

1104
01:12:34,971 --> 01:12:35,871
You can know that.

1105
01:12:35,951 --> 01:12:42,071
and a study by Ohio State University,

1106
01:12:42,211 --> 01:12:43,571
Deb Steiner and co-workers,

1107
01:12:44,331 --> 01:12:47,811
she and her colleagues followed early adopters

1108
01:12:47,811 --> 01:12:52,651
who came to me for learning from me in the early 1980s

1109
01:12:52,651 --> 01:12:56,111
when I first went to America and started teaching thousands of people,

1110
01:12:56,931 --> 01:13:00,711
and they, from California right across to Florida,

1111
01:13:01,271 --> 01:13:03,311
averaged 300% more profit,

1112
01:13:03,311 --> 01:13:05,851
and all they were doing was just following

1113
01:13:05,851 --> 01:13:09,031
what we call holistic financial planning.

1114
01:13:10,051 --> 01:13:14,131
And at that time, the time period over which that occurred,

1115
01:13:14,131 --> 01:13:18,031
over 600,000 farm families went bankrupt

1116
01:13:18,031 --> 01:13:20,751
and suicide was the leading cause of death

1117
01:13:20,751 --> 01:13:22,231
in the same markets.

1118
01:13:24,271 --> 01:13:27,031
And people thinking of the sources of the money,

1119
01:13:27,311 --> 01:13:29,691
managing holistically, I stress,

1120
01:13:29,971 --> 01:13:31,791
averaged 300% more profit.

1121
01:13:31,791 --> 01:13:34,691
we could be doing that all over the world.

1122
01:13:37,631 --> 01:13:42,631
Yeah, and I know this is something that the Savory Institute is very monumental in helping

1123
01:13:42,631 --> 01:13:47,391
as you're increasing your footprint across the world to really push those principles

1124
01:13:47,391 --> 01:13:50,911
or help educate on those principles, I guess I should say.

1125
01:13:52,451 --> 01:13:57,171
How would you describe the process of how these different hubs are actually helping

1126
01:13:57,171 --> 01:14:03,971
these different geographical locations understand these things that you are saying and implement them

1127
01:14:03,971 --> 01:14:08,331
in their communities and people listening would probably like to know as well how they can

1128
01:14:08,331 --> 01:14:13,011
implement in their own communities yeah i think that varies with with every hub it's like how

1129
01:14:13,011 --> 01:14:21,211
long is a piece of string um so every hub is different but what they are is local um formed

1130
01:14:21,211 --> 01:14:24,511
by local people, managed locally, etc.

1131
01:14:25,031 --> 01:14:28,631
And they're part of a network, hopefully helping each other, etc.

1132
01:14:29,311 --> 01:14:34,271
Say Reinstitute is part of the network and, you know,

1133
01:14:34,411 --> 01:14:38,331
helping with the coordination of the knowledge and the training

1134
01:14:38,331 --> 01:14:39,891
and things like that.

1135
01:14:40,431 --> 01:14:42,011
So each hub is different.

1136
01:14:42,671 --> 01:14:46,291
And again, like everything, we have that under constant review

1137
01:14:46,291 --> 01:14:49,371
and we'll be again shortly reviewing that, I'm sure.

1138
01:14:49,371 --> 01:14:53,511
and one of the things I'm anxious about

1139
01:14:53,511 --> 01:14:55,411
so I don't know what more to say

1140
01:14:55,411 --> 01:14:57,791
than some of being more successful than others

1141
01:14:57,791 --> 01:15:00,071
in getting the knowledge spread

1142
01:15:00,071 --> 01:15:03,651
getting more and more people to manage their lives holistically

1143
01:15:03,651 --> 01:15:06,051
on farms, ranches, etc.

1144
01:15:07,371 --> 01:15:09,671
And one of the things I'm anxious to do

1145
01:15:09,671 --> 01:15:11,271
and this is my personal win

1146
01:15:11,271 --> 01:15:14,171
is to get hubs like this formed in the cities

1147
01:15:14,171 --> 01:15:17,111
because it's not about managing land

1148
01:15:17,111 --> 01:15:20,611
but cities are all going to fail

1149
01:15:20,611 --> 01:15:22,491
if we do not change

1150
01:15:22,491 --> 01:15:24,571
how agricultural policy is developed

1151
01:15:24,571 --> 01:15:26,731
so if we could get hubs like this

1152
01:15:26,731 --> 01:15:27,931
just local people

1153
01:15:27,931 --> 01:15:29,331
deeply concerned

1154
01:15:29,331 --> 01:15:31,371
getting together like a book club

1155
01:15:31,371 --> 01:15:32,151
whatever

1156
01:15:32,151 --> 01:15:33,211
in the cities

1157
01:15:33,211 --> 01:15:35,091
and then they could have affinity

1158
01:15:35,091 --> 01:15:36,631
with some of the rural hubs

1159
01:15:36,631 --> 01:15:38,471
and be able to take people out

1160
01:15:38,471 --> 01:15:39,831
and let them see the land etc

1161
01:15:39,831 --> 01:15:43,071
so that's just an anxiety of mine

1162
01:15:43,071 --> 01:15:44,671
is to see some people

1163
01:15:44,671 --> 01:15:46,551
but you can't push with a piece of string

1164
01:15:46,551 --> 01:15:51,611
so if dozens of young people in cities said we're concerned about the future

1165
01:15:51,611 --> 01:15:54,491
and we want to form a city i'd love it

1166
01:15:54,491 --> 01:16:00,351
yeah i definitely see that pattern where more and more people

1167
01:16:00,351 --> 01:16:04,171
that are living in cities and have been brought up in cities or

1168
01:16:04,171 --> 01:16:09,371
they're building a closer connection to why they need to

1169
01:16:09,371 --> 01:16:12,951
think more natural and why their environment isn't

1170
01:16:12,951 --> 01:16:18,811
everything. It's, you know, the, the grocery store doesn't make the food as a classic example,

1171
01:16:18,811 --> 01:16:22,731
you know, it's, it's connected with the nature outside of the city that makes the food is brought

1172
01:16:22,731 --> 01:16:28,831
in. So they really, it helps everyone. It benefits everyone to understand how that natural process

1173
01:16:28,831 --> 01:16:34,051
works. And I agree that would be an amazing way to help educate these, these so many people,

1174
01:16:34,091 --> 01:16:37,971
because there's so many people in cities that are so passionate about solving these problems,

1175
01:16:37,971 --> 01:16:44,271
but they just don't have the correct A to B path to understanding what the solution is.

1176
01:16:44,491 --> 01:16:45,831
So that's excellent. I love it.

1177
01:16:46,571 --> 01:16:52,331
Yeah, I hope something happens there because the bulk of the population in the world has now shifted to cities.

1178
01:16:52,491 --> 01:16:55,151
The economic power has shifted to cities.

1179
01:16:55,151 --> 01:16:59,751
The political power has all shifted to cities.

1180
01:17:00,451 --> 01:17:05,231
And cities, people, understandably, are right out of touch with nature.

1181
01:17:05,231 --> 01:17:14,991
and nowhere do we see this more than the very sincere genuine people who are vegans vegetarians

1182
01:17:14,991 --> 01:17:21,691
because they want to be more humane etc the big environmental organizations that are so

1183
01:17:21,691 --> 01:17:28,751
raised millions of dollars to stop poaching and try to save wildlife etc and these are all

1184
01:17:28,751 --> 01:17:32,271
terribly sincere people forming institutions, etc.

1185
01:17:33,111 --> 01:17:35,351
But they're flawed.

1186
01:17:35,551 --> 01:17:39,891
They're ending up, again, unintentionally doing great harm.

1187
01:17:41,111 --> 01:17:42,311
Tragic harm.

1188
01:17:43,291 --> 01:17:48,531
For example, the people who believe they're being more humane

1189
01:17:48,531 --> 01:17:51,251
are being vegan or whatever.

1190
01:17:52,091 --> 01:17:56,971
Humane is an urban concept, a human concept.

1191
01:17:56,971 --> 01:17:58,551
It doesn't exist in nature.

1192
01:17:58,751 --> 01:18:01,251
That's why we call it humane, I guess.

1193
01:18:01,891 --> 01:18:06,111
Now, so they don't want us to kill or eat meat or whatever,

1194
01:18:06,711 --> 01:18:08,371
because they don't want to kill,

1195
01:18:08,791 --> 01:18:11,611
and they want to let these animals live natural lives.

1196
01:18:11,611 --> 01:18:17,431
Well, tragically, as an ecologist and person, wildlife there,

1197
01:18:17,911 --> 01:18:23,851
I've witnessed thousands of animals dying a natural death,

1198
01:18:24,251 --> 01:18:25,531
and it is brutal.

1199
01:18:27,631 --> 01:18:28,431
Brutal.

1200
01:18:28,751 --> 01:18:35,011
If you leave any animals, including humans, to just die naturally, how does it happen?

1201
01:18:36,191 --> 01:18:37,591
It doesn't happen humanely.

1202
01:18:38,171 --> 01:18:43,531
We die of starvation, or we die of disease, or we die of accident.

1203
01:18:44,391 --> 01:18:46,651
These are the sort of things we die of.

1204
01:18:47,791 --> 01:18:49,651
And they're all brutal.

1205
01:18:49,651 --> 01:18:51,811
and then if you look at nature

1206
01:18:51,811 --> 01:18:54,031
very few animals

1207
01:18:54,031 --> 01:18:56,311
die of disease, starvation

1208
01:18:56,311 --> 01:18:56,951
etc

1209
01:18:56,951 --> 01:18:59,991
in wild, naturally

1210
01:18:59,991 --> 01:19:01,171
functioning nature

1211
01:19:01,171 --> 01:19:03,611
most animals die humanely

1212
01:19:03,611 --> 01:19:06,031
in the gentle jaws of a lion

1213
01:19:06,031 --> 01:19:06,731
or a crocodile

1214
01:19:06,731 --> 01:19:10,191
a quick, humane death

1215
01:19:10,191 --> 01:19:13,491
and so

1216
01:19:13,491 --> 01:19:15,871
when we stop it

1217
01:19:15,871 --> 01:19:17,931
and I had people in my country

1218
01:19:17,931 --> 01:19:21,811
calling me a brutal fellow, murderer, etc., etc.

1219
01:19:22,031 --> 01:19:24,451
And these were good environmentalists,

1220
01:19:24,791 --> 01:19:27,711
and I had to watch in one area of my country alone

1221
01:19:27,711 --> 01:19:29,531
while I was the researcher in charge,

1222
01:19:30,031 --> 01:19:33,151
I had to watch over 30,000 animals die

1223
01:19:33,151 --> 01:19:35,251
of starvation disease.

1224
01:19:35,251 --> 01:19:41,311
It was terrible, and that was entirely produced

1225
01:19:41,311 --> 01:19:42,991
by good people meaning well.

1226
01:19:42,991 --> 01:19:55,251
yeah the the whole food conversation of the the carnivores versus the vegans and how

1227
01:19:55,251 --> 01:20:01,711
the majority of people right now think that the most ethical diet is veganism i agree with you is

1228
01:20:01,711 --> 01:20:10,491
is not correct it's and but outside of just the the death component like the the nature of the

1229
01:20:10,491 --> 01:20:18,531
death itself is also the ecological component and how much damage is caused to earth and the

1230
01:20:18,531 --> 01:20:24,851
ecology of different ecosystems when you have to scale up this this vegan diet to have all these

1231
01:20:24,851 --> 01:20:30,611
crops those rows and rows and rows of corn that you see and the different ways that they have to

1232
01:20:30,611 --> 01:20:35,631
manage that land like you said i would say this is probably the worst uh management you could

1233
01:20:35,631 --> 01:20:42,431
possibly have is monocropic because that is very anti-nature so how would you elaborate on the

1234
01:20:42,431 --> 01:20:48,031
the damage to nature if we're trying if we're thinking about nature here like we've been

1235
01:20:48,031 --> 01:20:52,991
talking about how you want to we want to be as intertwined with nature as possible and not

1236
01:20:52,991 --> 01:20:59,891
cause destruction how would you compare someone like me who eats meat from cows who you know walk

1237
01:20:59,891 --> 01:21:07,391
on the land and face one bad day in their life where they are harvested versus the vegan diet

1238
01:21:07,391 --> 01:21:13,031
where you have these monocrop agriculture initiatives. How would you compare those two

1239
01:21:13,031 --> 01:21:19,811
in terms of environmental destruction? Well, one is going to destroy civilization.

1240
01:21:21,311 --> 01:21:27,851
The other, we've got to hope. Now, you know, what you're calling the vegan diet,

1241
01:21:27,851 --> 01:21:31,591
if anybody in the world wants to be vegan

1242
01:21:31,591 --> 01:21:34,991
it's wonderful if they're doing so for spiritual reasons

1243
01:21:34,991 --> 01:21:37,591
or health reasons that they believe in

1244
01:21:37,591 --> 01:21:41,151
that's every human's right and I would never oppose it

1245
01:21:41,151 --> 01:21:45,291
I wrote a blog on it and I was helped by a very good

1246
01:21:45,291 --> 01:21:47,691
vegan friend to write that

1247
01:21:47,691 --> 01:21:53,091
so that's fine but if they're doing it for ethical reasons

1248
01:21:53,091 --> 01:21:56,951
or environmental reasons then they're doing great harm and I've just

1249
01:21:56,951 --> 01:21:57,951
spelled that out.

1250
01:21:59,731 --> 01:22:00,011
The

1251
01:22:00,011 --> 01:22:02,991
dead talk and so on, these all

1252
01:22:02,991 --> 01:22:05,031
spell it out. Now, if you're going

1253
01:22:05,031 --> 01:22:06,971
to reject all

1254
01:22:06,971 --> 01:22:09,191
animal products for whatever

1255
01:22:09,191 --> 01:22:11,331
reason, yes, then you're back

1256
01:22:11,331 --> 01:22:13,391
as Monbeau, one of the

1257
01:22:13,391 --> 01:22:15,291
writers of The Guardian, keeps

1258
01:22:15,291 --> 01:22:16,731
preaching and he's written a book,

1259
01:22:16,871 --> 01:22:19,011
Regenest Sornet, in which

1260
01:22:19,011 --> 01:22:20,991
I'm the most criticised scientist,

1261
01:22:21,251 --> 01:22:23,191
I see. If you

1262
01:22:23,191 --> 01:22:25,151
do take that line of the

1263
01:22:25,151 --> 01:22:27,211
world, monocultures

1264
01:22:27,211 --> 01:22:28,951
are chaos. There's not

1265
01:22:28,951 --> 01:22:31,051
a scientist in the world

1266
01:22:31,051 --> 01:22:33,191
that knows how to manage monoculture.

1267
01:22:33,611 --> 01:22:34,891
They defy the principles

1268
01:22:34,891 --> 01:22:35,591
of ecology.

1269
01:22:37,011 --> 01:22:39,191
So that whole form of agriculture,

1270
01:22:39,491 --> 01:22:40,651
chemicals, monoculture,

1271
01:22:41,331 --> 01:22:43,031
technology, etc.,

1272
01:22:43,031 --> 01:22:44,871
corporate production,

1273
01:22:44,871 --> 01:22:46,511
it is destroying

1274
01:22:46,511 --> 01:22:48,271
civilization. There's no question.

1275
01:22:50,031 --> 01:22:50,711
Just take

1276
01:22:50,711 --> 01:22:51,971
the United States.

1277
01:22:52,451 --> 01:22:54,611
When I went to the United States,

1278
01:22:55,151 --> 01:23:02,951
Soil conservation service people were very concerned and trying to get the message over unsuccessfully to the American population.

1279
01:23:03,151 --> 01:23:04,551
I got the data from them.

1280
01:23:05,251 --> 01:23:12,011
And I used to ask Americans, I was training thousands of farmers and ranchers and others,

1281
01:23:12,491 --> 01:23:17,311
and I would ask them, what is America's biggest agricultural export?

1282
01:23:18,011 --> 01:23:21,231
And they would all name grain or beef or whatever.

1283
01:23:22,031 --> 01:23:24,751
And I'd say, no, no, no.

1284
01:23:24,751 --> 01:23:26,511
and it would run to halt.

1285
01:23:27,151 --> 01:23:28,491
And I'd say, none of you have mentioned

1286
01:23:28,491 --> 01:23:31,091
the biggest agricultural export of America.

1287
01:23:31,891 --> 01:23:33,231
And then they'd say, what is it?

1288
01:23:33,271 --> 01:23:35,151
And I'd say, dead, eroding soil.

1289
01:23:36,371 --> 01:23:38,471
And I got the figures from your own government.

1290
01:23:39,351 --> 01:23:44,891
America was exporting far greater tonnage

1291
01:23:44,891 --> 01:23:47,871
than all other exports together.

1292
01:23:49,151 --> 01:23:52,211
And the Soil Conservation Service at the time

1293
01:23:52,211 --> 01:23:54,131
was trying to get that to the public

1294
01:23:54,131 --> 01:24:00,651
by saying it's the equivalent of a train of railcars full of soil

1295
01:24:00,651 --> 01:24:05,511
leaving the country every day, that train 21 miles long,

1296
01:24:06,871 --> 01:24:08,591
leaving the country every day.

1297
01:24:09,591 --> 01:24:12,271
And that was 40-odd years ago.

1298
01:24:12,951 --> 01:24:14,711
And if anything, it's probably worse today.

1299
01:24:15,931 --> 01:24:16,471
Why?

1300
01:24:17,011 --> 01:24:18,411
Not because people are bad.

1301
01:24:18,811 --> 01:24:19,931
We'll just go back to repeating,

1302
01:24:20,411 --> 01:24:23,471
because of the way every government develops policy.

1303
01:24:24,131 --> 01:24:46,351
Alan, I know we're getting close to an hour and a half here, and I want to respect your time. So I think this would be a good time to start wrapping things up and giving some good calls to action for the people out there listening, wondering how they can be a part of these solutions you're talking about and educating themselves on the root problems that you talk about as well.

1304
01:24:46,351 --> 01:24:56,411
So where would you direct people? I know you have tons of resources through your website, your TED Talks we talked about, your book and your upcoming memoir.

1305
01:24:56,691 --> 01:25:01,191
So you're going to have multiple books out there. Where would you direct people like myself also?

1306
01:25:01,331 --> 01:25:08,151
Like I would I'm definitely going to be listening back to this and I want to read your books as well to do a deeper dive into these concepts you're giving me.

1307
01:25:08,891 --> 01:25:12,191
Where would you send folks like myself who are looking to learn more about all of this?

1308
01:25:12,191 --> 01:25:33,711
Well, the first thing is to care enough. If you don't care enough, you won't investigate, you won't follow up. So if you care enough about the future, if you're a young person, you should, and so on, then start getting more information, start getting involved. Now, that'll differ for everybody, wherever they are. We've talked about possibility of city-based hubs, etc.

1309
01:25:33,711 --> 01:25:35,631
good sources of information

1310
01:25:35,631 --> 01:25:37,711
go to the website, say Reinstitute

1311
01:25:37,711 --> 01:25:39,711
if you get the textbook

1312
01:25:39,711 --> 01:25:41,251
get the most up to date one

1313
01:25:41,251 --> 01:25:43,871
but even the most, any textbook

1314
01:25:43,871 --> 01:25:45,971
including mine are out of date

1315
01:25:45,971 --> 01:25:47,111
the day they're published

1316
01:25:47,111 --> 01:25:50,071
because knowledge is advancing all the time

1317
01:25:50,071 --> 01:25:51,471
so you would get

1318
01:25:51,471 --> 01:25:52,751
the textbook

1319
01:25:52,751 --> 01:25:57,631
the training materials, there's all that stuff

1320
01:25:57,631 --> 01:25:59,811
and then also look at things like

1321
01:25:59,811 --> 01:26:00,771
the COP26

1322
01:26:00,771 --> 01:26:03,471
and podcasts because those are running

1323
01:26:03,471 --> 01:26:10,511
ahead of the textbook. They're more up to date. And then you mentioned the book that my wife and I

1324
01:26:10,511 --> 01:26:16,191
are writing right now. Let me mention that because I think it's going to help everybody. That's the

1325
01:26:16,191 --> 01:26:21,851
reason I'm writing it. I've been pushed to write a memoir for years and I refuse to do so because

1326
01:26:21,851 --> 01:26:28,351
I see them as egotistical and I want to be part of that. That's not what I'm about. But I finally

1327
01:26:28,351 --> 01:26:37,231
agreed to write it when I could see a purpose to it. So what I want to do in that book, and

1328
01:26:37,231 --> 01:26:43,011
let me tell you about it, is to explain the biggest problem facing the world we've been

1329
01:26:43,011 --> 01:26:48,851
talking about, right? Our inability to manage this complexity of humans' economy nature.

1330
01:26:50,071 --> 01:26:58,131
Now, how did we discover how to address that in 1983? And I want to point out in the memoir

1331
01:26:58,131 --> 01:27:02,051
that that could never have ever been discovered by one person,

1332
01:27:02,331 --> 01:27:03,811
me or any other person.

1333
01:27:04,171 --> 01:27:04,611
Impossible.

1334
01:27:05,431 --> 01:27:08,351
It could never have been discovered by any university,

1335
01:27:09,331 --> 01:27:11,591
institution, environmental organization.

1336
01:27:11,851 --> 01:27:12,171
Impossible.

1337
01:27:12,971 --> 01:27:15,831
It could never have been discovered in any one country.

1338
01:27:17,011 --> 01:27:20,651
And it could never have been discovered at any time in history.

1339
01:27:22,011 --> 01:27:27,291
The ability to discover that from 2,000 of us

1340
01:27:27,291 --> 01:27:33,251
that were involved in it arose from a set of circumstances in Africa

1341
01:27:33,251 --> 01:27:34,811
that I was born into.

1342
01:27:36,331 --> 01:27:40,451
A country that was only 12 years old when I was born,

1343
01:27:41,171 --> 01:27:43,411
a very small population running it,

1344
01:27:44,191 --> 01:27:48,411
a dying days of empire, dying days of colonialism,

1345
01:27:49,451 --> 01:27:53,091
war, politics, violence, tracking.

1346
01:27:53,531 --> 01:27:55,411
Tracking was the origin of science.

1347
01:27:55,411 --> 01:27:59,231
according to Liebenberg who wrote a book about that

1348
01:27:59,231 --> 01:28:00,291
and I believe he's correct

1349
01:28:00,291 --> 01:28:03,631
and I as an ecologist spent 20 years of my life

1350
01:28:03,631 --> 01:28:05,791
tracking people and dangerous game

1351
01:28:05,791 --> 01:28:08,251
and that's all part of it

1352
01:28:08,251 --> 01:28:10,991
and then exile and working with many people

1353
01:28:10,991 --> 01:28:14,811
and out of that mixture

1354
01:28:14,811 --> 01:28:16,931
and that time in society

1355
01:28:16,931 --> 01:28:21,091
emerged our ability to talk as we are today

1356
01:28:21,091 --> 01:28:28,131
and i know it's coming up very quick that release so i'm really excited for you i'm sure that's a

1357
01:28:28,131 --> 01:28:33,331
huge accomplishment you're excited to get out there a memoir is a huge uh piece of that you

1358
01:28:33,331 --> 01:28:37,331
know life's work you're going to have to share with the world so congratulations on that i'm

1359
01:28:37,331 --> 01:28:42,631
very much looking forward to getting my hands on myself alice savory it's been absolute pleasure

1360
01:28:42,631 --> 01:28:47,671
talking to you today thank you so much for unloading your wisdom on us all giving us a lot

1361
01:28:47,671 --> 01:28:52,971
to think about and lots of questions to ask. So I very much looking forward to keeping in touch

1362
01:28:52,971 --> 01:28:57,451
with your work and all that you're doing to create a better world. So I appreciate you very much, sir.

1363
01:28:57,951 --> 01:29:01,451
Well, Ben, I appreciate being invited. Thank you. Thank you.