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If I could hope for but one thing for you, so you'd be curious in all that you do.

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Cause love like a flower just wants to grow.

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Oh, and knowledge like your heart just wants to be known.

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If you like, please subscribe. This is Bitcoin Study Sessions.

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some essays from. Ben is the CEO of ReElement Technologies Africa and is a founding partner

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of Bridger Solutions, an Africa-focused Bitcoin mining company, and has also been a diplomat

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in Africa, the Middle East, and South Asia. And all of that gave this article just a really

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interesting take on Bitcoin that Lucas and I hadn't seen elsewhere. So we're really happy

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to have Ben here today to go a little bit deeper in some of the themes in the essay.

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So did I get your, that was the bio you had in this, Ben.

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Is that still what you're doing?

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Are you still with ReElement and Bridger?

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I am, yeah.

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So, yeah, quick snapshot.

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I've been with ReElement, and I lead ReElement Africa, which is a subsidiary of ReElement.

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I've been doing that for the last year and a half, while still very engaged and interested

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on everything Bitcoin and trying to figure out how to fuse the two things,

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sometimes to the chagrin of the folks at ReElement.

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But I think I've won them over for the most part.

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But ReElement, real quick, is a critical minerals refining company.

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We took technology that was developed by Purdue University, commercialized it,

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and we're deploying that overseas, in Africa, other places, in the United States as well,

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to be able to refine critical minerals.

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to take what comes out of the ground or out of recycled materials,

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add value by refining it into manufacturing-grade products,

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which is super important right now with everything going on with supply chains

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and gaining dependence from kind of Chinese-dominated supply chains,

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especially on the processing side.

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And if we get to it, I think there's some interesting corollaries and analogies

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between Bitcoin mining and critical minerals refining.

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But it's such a big universe.

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You know, Bitcoin is, you see analogies everywhere

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and you go down lots of rabbit holes and it's been lots of fun.

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Yeah, I think I saw ReElement Technologies mentioned

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in a Bitcoin Policy Institute policy paper on Africa and Bitcoin mining recently.

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You know, it's just occurring to me now.

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I read that offhandedly a couple or a week or so ago.

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Is ReElement doing stuff in Bitcoin right now or is it?

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So the short answer is no, not yet.

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But I think we will.

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I think any industrial consumers of energy will have a Bitcoin mining unit.

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And we'd love to be kind of leading the charge on that.

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But I can confirm that we were in that.

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So I'm impressed that you were able to pick that out.

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That means you got to at least page 15 or 16 of that piece.

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And that was written by a good friend of mine who's also a co-founder of Bridger Solutions,

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which is the Bitcoin mining company with the Africa focus.

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So we were comparing notes, and all the credit to him writing it.

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But we decided together it would make sense to put that kind of industrial analogy in there.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, and so maybe we'll get to that.

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I wish I would have read that in more depth now.

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It had a Bitcoin in Africa angle, which is something Lucas and I find very interesting.

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And so the substance of your article, I mean, just the briefest summary is we usually start our episodes kind of with a summary of the content.

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And we previously did an episode over your essay.

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Lucas and I summarized it and discussed it at length.

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I mean, just kind of the briefest summary of the substance of the article is something that like Africa, African sovereignty is in the U.S. national interest because strong self-rule and self-determination, as you argue, will serve as a bulwark against Chinese and Russian influence.

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African sovereignty is already supported

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and this is a really interesting part of your article

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by what you argue is a strong kind of African village ethos

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of localized, tradition-based and decentralized populations

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and Bitcoin then could serve to further empower

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this kind of local decentralized ethos

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and from the bottom up allow Africans to opt into a freedom-preserving

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techno-monetary stack

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as opposed to kind of the Chinese alternative of CBDCs and other authoritarian surveillance technologies.

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And so kind of in your piece, you argue that Africa is well poised to benefit also from Bitcoin

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due to having immense natural energy resources, lots of which are stranded and can be monetized through Bitcoin mining.

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So that's kind of just like a 10,000 or 40,000 foot view of the article.

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Is that kind of what was the impetus, I guess, or what were you trying to get out when you sat down to pen this piece and talk about national strategic interests of the United States in relation to Africa and Bitcoin?

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Yeah, and I think that is a good synopsis.

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And I'm glad you started off by pointing out the issue of sovereignty and where that most optimally resides.

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And this is not just a question for Africa, but it's a question for the United States.

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It's a question for the entire world.

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And it can quickly become just a philosophical discussion.

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But I think it's super important, especially as you are seeing how sovereignty or lack of sovereignty is playing out in various places on Earth.

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and really kind of getting an understanding of what Africa, and when I say Africa, I mean Africa is a big place.

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It's 54, 55 countries depending on how you count, and of course you can't refer to it monolithically.

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But I would say that in big parts of Africa, you have some aspects of sovereignty at the local level that I think are enviable and that we need to look toward as more aligned with kind of liberal democratic values as they were conceived by our founding fathers in the United States.

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than arguably are in practice today, and why is that?

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And so that's kind of going to the lowest level, almost a tribal or local level within Africa,

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where today you still have social structures and day-to-day life defined by face-to-face relationships,

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people waking up every day, figuring out what needs to be done to survive that day,

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and doing that in a community and tribal and supportive structure, networks of families,

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and how that is kind of supportive naturally of kind of local democracy building with kind of built-in civic institutions.

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So how is that? You call it a vibrant localism in your essay.

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You say a vibrant localism is essential for democracies to flourish.

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I was really curious about that. I mean, it seems plausible. And I guess you were starting to mention institutions when I interrupted you. But how is that kind of those institutions that they have amongst the people and the African village idea? I mean, how is that conducive to strong national sovereignty?

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So I think those are two different things.

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And when you're looking at what is kind of the natural formation of social life in Africa,

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and I think you could argue maybe across humans everywhere,

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but you see it in Africa very starkly,

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is that you have these very, very strong embedded ties at the local level

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where there is kind of an ordered system of trust.

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You've got elders.

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You have religious leaders.

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You have traditional values that are kind of unofficially enforced,

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and there's unwritten code that people live by.

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And that's sovereignty that's kind of unlocked in a voluntary fashion, and this kind of gets to my favorite philosopher slash sociologist, which is Alexis de Tocqueville, and what he, I think, rightly identified as super important if you're going to choose in kind of the American context to have a democratic structure of governance.

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So you've got to have that at the base level, and it's defined by voluntary participation, voluntary associations, civic associations that people are involved in that is almost as natural as breathing, but are defined loosely as organizations of people striving, working together towards common objectives and common goals.

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and doing that in some kind of values-infused way.

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I think in the U.S. context and Western values,

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that's very much been historically, not as much anymore,

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associated with Judeo-Christian values.

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I think, ironically, in Africa, you have Judeo-Christian values

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that are infused into that vibrant localism more so than in the West and in the United States.

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Not everywhere, but I would say where religion or religion-based values are constant

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or on the incline as something that governs people and collections of people,

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that's on the ascendancy or constant in Africa and has been on the decline in the West.

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And that's a problem that needs to be understood, I think, if you're going to have a democratic structure

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where you also have kind of varying loci of power that's decentralized into kind of a federal system,

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a more localized state system and then where the rubber really meets the road in localities,

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how people are governing themselves at that smallest local level.

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And then arguably more important than that, how you're governing yourself in your own heart,

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informed by the way that you were raised, the way that the communities decided to govern themselves,

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the way those religious institutions kind of inform your life growing up.

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So the other end of that is national sovereignty.

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And so I think that's where you've got a lot of weakness generally.

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Again, you can't talk about Africa monolithically,

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but weakness at the nation-state level in Africa, and for good reason, right?

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because it's still very much a colonial and post-colonial nation-state mashup.

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These were lines that were not drawn by the people who lived there

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but were drawn by great powers

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and continue to get kind of reinforced by those outside great power influences

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where you have more natural regional, ethnic, religious, cultural lines

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that spread across borders very fluidly.

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And so when you look at the map of Africa

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and you look at kind of where sovereignty should exist at a bigger, more collective level,

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we like to refer to that as a nation state,

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it really doesn't conform to the map that everyone kind of accepts today.

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Now, I argue that we also can't look back and litigate the sins.

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We have to move forward.

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We have to look at where we are today, ameliorate, make things better,

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take the nations that are formed and, you know, how do you, in those constructs, have better rule of law?

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How do you have, you know, governments that are accountable to the people?

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How do you institute structures that are decentralized so that you have, you know,

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opportunities for political and economic development at the most local of levels,

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but you have core functions that are provided by the state or the federal levels

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that make sure that everyone's safe and that there is a consistent rule of law

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that does not collapse into chaotic mobsterism, patronage politics, corruption,

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all of this stuff that you see.

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So where Europe and then the United States was born out of kind of the formation of nation states that happened in Europe through the Treaty of Westphalia, Africa never really had a Westphalia moment.

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They never really had a moment where there were nation states that were formed by kind of the will of the people and the class structures that made sense in those geographic areas.

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So I think what is interesting now, looking at the map, looking at where borders are drawn, is how can something like Bitcoin, something like Bitcoin mining, resource nationalism, how can today these nation states be more infused with the type of sovereignty that we think in the West is more.

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or we know to be in the West is actually supportive of a coherent social structure

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where you can have flourishing local communities kind of working symbiotically

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with those other layers of governance.

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And the problem in Africa is they have become many African nations,

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not all have been kind of victims of cycles of dependency where you have elite you know

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formations of you know political class economic class that have been able to capture

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a lot of the outside great power

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influences and

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provision of capital and quote unquote

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development that these

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quote unquote leaders that should be serving their constituencies

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are more concerned with keeping those

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cycles moving in a way that benefits

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that elite and certainly benefits the structures of

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outside powers that are seeking to gain influence

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for a number of reasons outside of what's necessarily

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good or promoting

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the independent development

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of those nations and the people that

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populate them.

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I love what you just took the time to walk us through.

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So I want to come at this from a couple different angles.

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So you really highlighted what I think was one of the three kind of big takeaways from your article for me,

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which is the village model of Africa, the governance model that is dominant in Africa,

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that is something that, if you go around the world, is somewhat unique to Africa.

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It's not unique, but it's far more prevalent, I would say, in Africa than it is in other places.

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And we'll get into this.

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I'll kind of just lay this out, and I'll kind of let you take it where you want.

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But one of the things that I think that is very important to recognize is because it lends itself to a Bitcoin solution like Fediment, which is dependent upon trusted elders, which is dependent upon kind of that Dunbar's number sort of high trust engagement, small number of people community.

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And so I'd definitely like to get your take on why Fetiment is uniquely suited for Africa

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and maybe how it fits, how it might be adopted in other places.

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Because I can see that being actually a potential stumbling block for Fetiment adoption in other places that don't have those characteristics.

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But before I let you take it down that road, let me kind of walk you through a couple other things.

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So I said one of three things is what you covered that were big takeaways.

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The first is the local village model.

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That is sort of the trickle-up morality.

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That the morality doesn't necessarily trickle all the way up to the national level, unfortunately.

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But it is very strong in that family unit, those religious ties.

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When you were talking about the importance of religion and how that really ties into, I guess, the binding factors of an economy and of a people,

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I'm reading Isaac Asimov's Foundation series right now.

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And one of the main takeaways there is that when everything crumbles and chaos ensues and it's just barbarism everywhere, the way that Harry Seldon's foundation, the scientific foundation, is able to start reestablishing control is by cloaking science in religion.

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is by re-nuclearizing these nations under the guise of the galactic spirit

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and thus being able to effectively tame the barbarism that comes out of chaos

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by giving it a directed channel towards a religious spirit.

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And so I think that's really, really unique that you pull that out.

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so anyways again just throwing that to the side so it's the local the local model

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what you really highlighted for me was the fact that africa is somewhat ground zero for

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cold war 3.0 maybe i think probably at this point um we could probably call it 3.0 but um

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The monetary neocolonialism that is African or that is sorry, that is Chinese autocracy on one side and Bitcoin, hopefully the point of your article, hopefully supported with full blown freedom on the other side by by the Americans in order to battle out and see who wins in Africa.

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because the demographics of that country point, the demographics and the resources, natural resources,

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point to Africa being a power player in the coming decades.

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And so incredibly important.

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I want to make sure that I get your take not just on the idea of stranded energy in Africa,

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which is something that you know quite a bit about,

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but the actual overall potential of stranded energy in terms of like, what are some numbers on this?

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How much power can we add to the total exahash of the Bitcoin network?

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And anyways, yeah, so those three things.

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So kind of the local model being somewhat unique to Africa,

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the fact that it is the ground zero for a Cold War 3.0,

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And then the overall potential of, you know, we all know that there's stranded waterfalls and that there's rivers and we can go out there and we can throw a Starlink up in a generator and start mining Bitcoin and we can build out.

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But what is the, I think you might be uniquely suited to answer this question because everybody kind of knows that, but I've never heard any like real numbers on it.

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like just how much stranded energy potential is in Africa relative to other places and how much

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of a difference is that going to make going forward so um I took you down a meandering path

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it's not even a path I just I hopped I just hopped from hot rock to hot rock to hot rock so

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you know anything that you can take out of there I would love to get your take on

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yeah so many of those things that I want to I want to jump on um but I'll start with uh

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the potential for

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Bitcoin mining in Africa.

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I'll try to connect it to

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filling out a little bit better

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the argument on nation-state level sovereignty

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and why I think that's

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important in the context of where

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the world is moving. We're watching it move very

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aggressively before our eyes from something that we thought was going to be a continuation

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of what happened after World War II, which was setting up a number of regional institutions

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and even international institutions that were going to have governance structures that created

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international rules and norms

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and democracy transition that comes with it

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in a kind of a top-down approach

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and from a supranational set of structures.

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I think that the nation-state level is still very important,

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even in the African context,

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and even if the strength of African society resides in an exemplary fashion at the most local levels.

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And that's essentially the argument of if we are moving today

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and we're watching it happen under the Trump administration,

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which is really kind of supercharging this,

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but I think this is a trend that was in route probably for the last decade or so,

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and that is that countries are going to need to work with other countries

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based off of common objectives, whether that's security or economic.

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There is going to be some work in and around regional blocks, but I think it's very clear that an unelected managerial class out of Europe or out of New York or out of Geneva is not what countries in Africa need to be able to be independently successful in terms of driving their economies,

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driving industrial development, supporting the needs of their constituencies,

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and working hand-in-glove with the localities that form those states.

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But to Bitcoin mining and numbers, I actually can send it to you guys after,

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But the numbers around stranded energy off of existing infrastructure, so hydro, solar, wind, is pretty staggering.

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And then it's even more staggering when you look at planned projects or projects that are under construction once they're developed.

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and then beyond that, what is untapped, what is still in the realm of possible,

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whether it's geothermal in Kenya and Ethiopia, whether it's hydro,

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whether it hasn't been a power plant built or solar and wind,

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and add into that oil and gas and coal.

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I mean, one of the great modern scandals that nobody really pays attention to, but I think they get it when they hear it, is that two things are true in Africa.

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And that is that you've got 600 million people that still don't have access to electricity or consistent access to electricity, more than half of the population.

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but you also have impressive infrastructure, energy-producing assets in place that are not producing at full capacity

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or in some cases even near to full capacity because you don't have the investment around transmission infrastructure,

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which is as costly or more costly to evacuate that power from power facilities

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to get it to as many people, as many retail consumers,

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as many industrial consumers as possible.

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So those two things are happening, are true at the same time.

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So then the question becomes, I'll go back and throw some numbers out.

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In Ethiopia, I think a lot of Bitcoiners in particular have been following that story.

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You have the Grand Renaissance Dam, which is the largest hydroelectric facility on the continent, along the Nile.

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Once that is producing at full capacity, that's about a 7 or 8 gigawatt producing facility, which is extraordinary.

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Today, about a gigawatt of that is energized.

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and the reason for that is there's not the billions

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or even hundreds of billions of dollars of transmission

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that's needed to move that centralized power out to where people can use that power.

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Cost prohibitive under how projects are financed today.

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You have in Uganda Tanzania Malawi South Africa multiple projects in West Africa hydro alone where you have in the thousands of megawatts of energy that is not being energized is not being used for the same reasons And really that just the tip of the iceberg on what can be built out

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based off of the energy resources that these countries have.

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And so what is the answer?

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I think China came in with an alternative as part of a geoeconomic project to extend influence, to be able to extend their Belt and Road infrastructure initiative,

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be able to build at scale through subsidized debt packages to countries,

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ports and airports and power infrastructure,

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in order to bring those countries and those resources into the China economic sphere

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as China is trying to meet the needs of its people back inside of China.

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and extend its influence overseas,

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and it's a great way for them to recycle the U.S. dollars that they want to spend

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before we do a swift move like we did to the Russians.

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so because of that you've seen a lot of these projects get built up but without without the

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kind of the next step planning on okay this is essentially a gift granted you're going to have

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to pay this back if you don't pay it back it's going to be ours and god forbid you know country

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They're able to kind of move the EU on across that infrastructure complex, which would potentially tie those countries and utilities to transacting on CBDC rails that are controlled by a centralized power outside of the region.

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but the result has not been all bad for the Africans.

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They have bridges, they have roads, they have power facilities,

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they have ports that they wouldn't have otherwise.

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But in the context of the energy assets,

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you've got massive power facilities

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that are not going to actually meet the needs of the people.

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So Bitcoin mining as a first and last resort purchaser of that power, I think we're seeing already and we're going to see more of this, is quickly going to those gaps in energy production and providing revenue for otherwise unmonetized energy,

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which is providing a tax base, is providing a way to pay down that debt,

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is a way to finance the transmission infrastructure that's needed to evacuate more of that power to retail and industrial consumers,

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is a way to build more power projects.

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And on top of that, it's a way for utilities that are usually part of nation-state governing structures to secure a tax base, get a hold of quote-unquote hard assets, not Bitcoin but U.S. dollars in the context of inflating local currencies.

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and the needs to pay off or meet the interest payments for debt that just continues to pile up.

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So as countries are realizing that they have this as an opportunity,

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we're seeing them look more to data center development.

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And the pioneer species of data center development are Bitcoin mining data centers.

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partner with them in order to simply monetize energy that they couldn't monetize otherwise

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and bring that into their treasury balance sheets to be able to deploy as a nation state

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and meet the productive needs of a country that needs to develop organically,

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independent of outside powers and influence.

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So that's kind of what we're seeing.

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I think Ethiopia is a super interesting example,

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and it kind of brings into focus this Cold War 2.0 or Cold War 3.0 aspect.

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Bitcoin miners that can no longer mine Bitcoin inside of China

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because they were banned from doing so have not been banned from being a company.

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I mean, they're still set up in Shenzhen and Beijing.

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That's where their corporate headquarters are. And the CCP is more than happy to have them go out and bring revenue back to the mothership and go out and be capitalist as long as they are not minting non-controlled, non-CCP controlled Bitcoin and using it as a way to get capital out of China.

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So as that is happening, we're seeing a lot of displacement of Chinese companies going overseas to set up shop.

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And I think that is having the impact of, A, really motivating this capitalist class of Chinese entrepreneurs to spread their legs and do that within the Bitcoin ecosystem,

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which is, I think, even if it's at a passive level, is reinforcing freedom principles amongst that important class of Chinese entrepreneurs.

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And I think that that is going to have an impact downstream back into the CCP in China.

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And then second, I think it's showing U.S.-based Bitcoin or Western-based Bitcoin miners that there is absolutely a market to compete over in Africa and other places.

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And so you're seeing more Western Bitcoin mining companies go move to scale in more of a partnership approach with utilities and nation states, which I think and I know nation states prefer.

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But we're still kind of at the baby stages of that.

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Can I follow up with one point there?

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So this is incredibly interesting when you mention, and you did this in your essay too, that Chinese entrepreneurs are getting into Bitcoin and that this could have an influence downstream or back into China, maybe in a broader sense.

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And in your essay, you note that the CCP has a particular affinity for your favorite philosopher, Alexis de Tocqueville, and seem to take very seriously some of his musings that the serious risk to an authoritarian society arises once the sort of, I guess, like middle class gets to a certain level of wealth.

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not when the heel, the boot is on the neck or whatever, but when the boot begins to lift is when the real danger is presented to kind of the ruling authoritarian class.

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And I guess my question is, if that's a correct statement of, you know, how you think that they consider Tocqueville,

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but also, do you have any perspective or have you seen any of this influence through Chinese entrepreneurs back into China

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or have any sort of basis for saying that this is something that is occurring

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or is it more just an extrapolation of this will likely occur

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just given the way that ideas spread?

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Yeah, I think it's speculative for sure.

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We'll see how this plays out.

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But I do think that we know that China is in a difficult position right now.

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They're trying to open their liquidity spigots in order to kind of cover their indebtedness.

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They've got some significant economic challenges internally.

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They're letting off steam, I think, by allowing this entrepreneurial class to go be entrepreneurial

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in ways that they wouldn't want them to be inside of China.

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They're doing that outside of China.

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We'll see if that does have that downstream impact.

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impact. I think it does. I mean, we've seen examples of this outside of Bitcoin. Certainly,

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Jack Ma disappeared for about two years. He got, I think, a little too big for his britches

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in the minds of the CCP, and he had to go through some time in purgatory, and it looks like he's

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rehabilitated himself with the CCP.

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I think that for the CCP, they are absolutely committed to their model of a state-controlled,

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top-down approach on the economic ordering.

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they realize that they can't clamp down too hard

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lest they have problems that rise internally.

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But what they've been able to do extraordinarily well

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is control the manufacturing of real things that the entire world needs.

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that plus their ability to take innovation, kind of reverse engineer it,

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and I think they've got a lot of innovative folks as well,

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but applying that to kind of a top-down tech-infused system of control

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where you have surveillance tech, you have a monetary system

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along a digital payment system that would be controlled in a very totalitarian fashion

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but very efficient by the People's Bank of China.

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And it's based off of the premise of a social contract, right?

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It's, hey, hands off of politics.

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This is the way it's going to run.

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everyone can be guaranteed a decent wage.

348
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You can have all of the toys that you want.

349
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You can play video games to your heart's delight.

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You can have at an abstracted level the tech that enables you to escape into your own world

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and fulfill your dreams.

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but I would argue in a very abstract way.

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The tradeoff in return is we are going to order everything.

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There's going to be full compliance.

355
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As long as you submit, we will make your life easy.

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We will make your life fun as long as fun is defined by the things that we prescribe together.

357
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you guys can participate in, but nothing can be questioned in terms of the way the state

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kind of has total control.

359
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And this was essentially the concern that Alexis de Tocqueville had, not of what Europe was

360
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in the United States or America coming out of Europe as a new project,

361
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but what he foresaw as the underside of democracy itself, right?

362
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So the real concern of Tocqueville was you'll have two things,

363
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two temptations of the human heart in the democratic context

364
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that will bring on a new form of tyranny that's not unlike the Chinese model,

365
00:43:43,484 --> 00:43:47,685
except the difference is we will reach into our pockets

366
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and voluntarily give our freedom away as opposed to it being wrested from us.

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And those two temptations of the human heart are,

368
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one, to look to

369
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in the absence of

370
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God or religious values, you look to the state

371
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as kind of

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the all-encompassing, powerful

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parent that we have to look up to for guidance

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and will provide for us as long as

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we stay in our place.

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And then on the other end of sovereignty, we collapse inward.

377
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We stop the hard work of vibrant localism, voluntary civic associations,

378
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voluntary interactions in the meat space, like in the real physical realm with others.

379
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and we collapse into our phones and our video games and into our minds,

380
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talk only to the people online, not in person, that reinforce the way that we think about the world.

381
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We can live that abstractly.

382
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We can have Twitter fights as long as those don't turn into actually doing something about that in the street, in partnership.

383
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with our fellow man trying to build a world together.

384
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And so Tocqueville's big fear was we get to China, but we do it voluntarily

385
00:45:34,665 --> 00:45:44,385
because it's too much for the soul to bear to be able to order ourselves,

386
00:45:44,385 --> 00:45:51,584
answer the question of human loneliness without a powerful intermediary

387
00:45:51,584 --> 00:45:53,405
who's going to solve that problem for us.

388
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And so for Tocqueville, his concern was if we are no longer tethered to the things in life

389
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that keep things in check.

390
00:46:16,544 --> 00:46:18,944
In Europe, it was aristocracy,

391
00:46:19,205 --> 00:46:23,385
and so you have reciprocal obligations between the classes,

392
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and that was just something that was set.

393
00:46:27,084 --> 00:46:28,504
That was something that was unquestioned.

394
00:46:28,604 --> 00:46:29,564
You're born into it.

395
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If you're a royal, you're a royal.

396
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If you're a noble, you're a noble.

397
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If you're a peasant, you're a peasant.

398
00:46:35,604 --> 00:46:38,464
There are reciprocal obligations between those classes,

399
00:46:38,464 --> 00:46:40,185
but there's no social mobility.

400
00:46:40,725 --> 00:46:48,345
but you have core institutions of how that society works built in.

401
00:46:48,345 --> 00:46:56,424
You have a prescribed religion which governs your soul.

402
00:46:56,964 --> 00:47:03,804
You have a prescribed kind of social and family structure and order.

403
00:47:04,244 --> 00:47:10,464
It never would be questioned that you would think about leaving the home

404
00:47:10,464 --> 00:47:20,165
before the age of 25, after you've done your part to kind of help the family do what they need to do out in the fields.

405
00:47:20,944 --> 00:47:28,665
And all of a sudden, we have a transition to democracy where everything is flat.

406
00:47:28,665 --> 00:47:40,424
There are no longer any of these structures or tethers that are embedded, that bind ourselves to the things that make life livable.

407
00:47:40,464 --> 00:47:44,904
So we have to voluntarily do that on our own.

408
00:47:45,044 --> 00:47:51,865
And you do that, you know, Tocqueville's view was you do that through having decentralized governance.

409
00:47:52,185 --> 00:47:55,784
Let's push everything down to the most local level as possible.

410
00:47:56,345 --> 00:48:03,304
You do that through civic associations that you are voluntarily a part of that bring you out, you know,

411
00:48:03,304 --> 00:48:10,665
into partnership and working with other people in your community on a face-to-face basis,

412
00:48:11,064 --> 00:48:16,604
and you do that through voluntary participation in religious institutions

413
00:48:16,604 --> 00:48:23,004
so that you have something that actually governs yourself.

414
00:48:23,944 --> 00:48:29,424
And what I think has happened, and we're now seeing, thankfully, I think a backlash to it

415
00:48:29,424 --> 00:48:40,764
in the Western context is the fact that we feel completely delinked

416
00:48:40,764 --> 00:48:43,825
from anything that actually provides order.

417
00:48:44,904 --> 00:48:47,884
We can become anything that we want to be.

418
00:48:48,245 --> 00:48:50,604
We can become another gender if we want to be.

419
00:48:50,604 --> 00:48:58,104
All of these things that have actually created a crisis in the human heart

420
00:48:58,104 --> 00:49:08,564
and the human soul, which is kind of the fundamental layer from which a real democratic form of governance

421
00:49:08,564 --> 00:49:13,144
that is salutary can exist.

422
00:49:13,644 --> 00:49:21,444
And so in order for the American project to continue, in order for democracy in Africa to work

423
00:49:21,444 --> 00:49:27,104
or anywhere else in the world, I think I lost your guess.

424
00:49:27,104 --> 00:49:28,444
No, we can see you.

425
00:49:28,884 --> 00:49:29,404
We're here.

426
00:49:29,524 --> 00:49:30,424
Yeah, can you hear us?

427
00:49:33,264 --> 00:49:34,345
You hear that you there, Ben?

428
00:49:35,725 --> 00:49:36,345
Hold on a second.

429
00:49:37,464 --> 00:49:37,705
Yep.

430
00:49:39,944 --> 00:49:42,845
I'd be really impressed if you pick up the exact same train of thought.

431
00:49:46,064 --> 00:49:46,984
Oh, here we go.

432
00:49:51,245 --> 00:49:52,124
Yep, can you see us?

433
00:49:52,144 --> 00:49:53,504
Can you guys hear me?

434
00:49:53,504 --> 00:49:54,064
Yeah, perfectly.

435
00:49:54,245 --> 00:49:55,264
Yeah, we never lost you.

436
00:49:55,264 --> 00:49:57,424
No, I can't hear you all, though.

437
00:49:58,564 --> 00:49:58,964
Okay.

438
00:49:59,304 --> 00:49:59,504
Okay.

439
00:49:59,924 --> 00:50:00,544
No, I got you.

440
00:50:00,624 --> 00:50:00,825
I got you.

441
00:50:00,825 --> 00:50:01,225
Okay, great.

442
00:50:01,284 --> 00:50:03,884
I think somebody called on me.

443
00:50:04,044 --> 00:50:04,484
Oh, yeah.

444
00:50:04,544 --> 00:50:05,044
Knocked me off.

445
00:50:05,104 --> 00:50:05,424
Oh, nice.

446
00:50:06,104 --> 00:50:06,345
Nice.

447
00:50:07,325 --> 00:50:19,484
Yeah, so the issue is one of, you know, what are the salutary constraints that we're going to put on ourselves

448
00:50:19,484 --> 00:50:29,964
lest we kind of spin out of control and force a centralized power to come in,

449
00:50:29,964 --> 00:50:37,345
a centralized government to play the role of God in our lives and order our lives for us.

450
00:50:37,784 --> 00:50:42,705
So that's kind of where we are.

451
00:50:42,884 --> 00:50:45,705
And taking it back to Bitcoin at kind of a fundamental level,

452
00:50:45,705 --> 00:50:51,564
Bitcoin, I think, Topol would consider as a salutary constraint.

453
00:50:52,284 --> 00:51:02,584
And so freedom is only freedom in as much as it's connected to what binds freedom.

454
00:51:02,845 --> 00:51:07,705
So if you have unadulterated freedom, if you can go do whatever you want,

455
00:51:07,825 --> 00:51:15,345
central banks can just print money ad infinitum, where does that lead us?

456
00:51:15,345 --> 00:51:21,624
Yes, that is freedom, but that leads us down ultimately to a path to ruin.

457
00:51:22,245 --> 00:51:34,104
So how do we latch on to these things, whether it's a civic association, whether it's the church, whether it's vibrant localism,

458
00:51:34,104 --> 00:51:41,544
whether it's bringing bitcoin or gold as a precursor to bitcoin

459
00:51:41,544 --> 00:51:45,964
as something that is that salutary constraint on freedom

460
00:51:45,964 --> 00:51:52,444
because it brings a real physical constraint to the human desire

461
00:51:52,444 --> 00:51:57,845
to make something out of nothing and kick that can down the road.

462
00:51:57,845 --> 00:51:59,904
And it's the same principle of an addict, right?

463
00:51:59,904 --> 00:52:06,124
You know, the easy route is to just up the dosage.

464
00:52:06,984 --> 00:52:10,264
You know, the dosage, the medicine is not the bad thing.

465
00:52:10,665 --> 00:52:16,245
It's the fact that we take the medicine, which is a substitute for healthy living,

466
00:52:16,604 --> 00:52:22,284
and then we turn that into a substitute and become completely dependent on that.

467
00:52:22,284 --> 00:52:46,644
So that's where I think Bitcoin really fits in kind of in a philosophical framework to these two kind of competing spheres of how we're going to govern ourselves in the future, especially with the advent of technology and it being easier than ever before to rely on tech plus government to order our lives.

468
00:52:46,644 --> 00:52:54,924
You know, what is it that's actually going to make life, you know, commodious living and life worth living?

469
00:52:54,924 --> 00:53:17,345
And my sense is, and I think everyone senses it, you know, no matter where you live, is that despite, you know, having essentially the, you know, the riches of that, you know, 100 years ago, nobody ever would have imagined anybody could have, you know, a king or a peasant.

470
00:53:17,345 --> 00:53:21,624
but we've all gotten the palm of our hands in terms of access to tech,

471
00:53:22,205 --> 00:53:33,245
the ability to go do a number of interesting things, albeit in the abstract realm,

472
00:53:34,644 --> 00:53:37,225
connection to the flow of information,

473
00:53:37,225 --> 00:53:48,165
and the quote-unquote ability to live a life that is peaceful

474
00:53:48,165 --> 00:54:01,884
and gives you more than you need in terms of what you need to live,

475
00:54:02,484 --> 00:54:03,865
we're still unsettled.

476
00:54:04,504 --> 00:54:05,705
Something is amiss.

477
00:54:05,705 --> 00:54:09,124
we're missing purpose and mission

478
00:54:09,124 --> 00:54:11,725
we're missing something

479
00:54:11,725 --> 00:54:15,325
despite all of the things that AI and technology

480
00:54:15,325 --> 00:54:18,404
and phones and video games and everything else

481
00:54:18,404 --> 00:54:19,504
has brought to us

482
00:54:19,504 --> 00:54:22,365
venture capital

483
00:54:22,365 --> 00:54:27,245
the financial wizardry that has made this

484
00:54:27,245 --> 00:54:30,564
fiat project kind of extend and then overextend

485
00:54:30,564 --> 00:54:34,325
why does that not feel right

486
00:54:34,325 --> 00:54:49,944
And that's because we've moved, I believe, away from some of the core things that are as simple as living a vibrant community life in a village in Africa.

487
00:54:50,944 --> 00:54:51,924
Yeah, Jordan.

488
00:54:52,624 --> 00:54:54,144
Sorry, you got it, Grant?

489
00:54:54,345 --> 00:54:58,064
I hear so many things that I want to talk about.

490
00:54:58,064 --> 00:55:19,884
Jordan Peterson would refer to that feeling as kind of the abandonment of the up, you know, just not no longer aiming up that you just need to in order to have that feeling that you need to be continually working kind of at your limit, which is often far more than what you think is your limit.

491
00:55:19,884 --> 00:55:27,064
David Goggins will talk about, you know, like most people when they quit, they think they're done, but they're really only at like 40%.

492
00:55:27,064 --> 00:55:38,984
And so that idea of striving for a higher purpose, of striving to take that block of granite and continually chisel away until there is this magnificent thing underneath,

493
00:55:39,444 --> 00:55:47,924
to become more of your true self by letting go of the things that make you less of who you are.

494
00:55:47,924 --> 00:55:50,865
I think you do a great job pointing that out.

495
00:55:51,264 --> 00:55:58,865
I also love hearing you bring out these strands of what the Chinese are doing,

496
00:55:59,504 --> 00:56:06,584
effectively taking the exorbitant privilege of the United States that exists by being able to print money out of nothing

497
00:56:06,584 --> 00:56:15,124
that we've talked about in previous podcasts, which results in this downstream effect that probably wasn't foreseen at the beginning,

498
00:56:15,124 --> 00:56:22,484
the Triffin Dilemma, where you have the exorbitant privilege, but the end result is that you lose your manufacturing capability,

499
00:56:22,685 --> 00:56:28,124
you lose your middle class, you end up hollowing out your country, you end up becoming morally bereft.

500
00:56:28,484 --> 00:56:32,964
And so we often think about the Chinese.

501
00:56:33,384 --> 00:56:40,365
For a very long time, the Chinese have been sort of portrayed as good at copying but not good at innovating.

502
00:56:40,365 --> 00:56:47,424
And one of the things I would say, by the way, that that's definitely not the case anymore, especially if you look at like DeepSeq.

503
00:56:47,524 --> 00:56:54,325
That's a perfect example of innovation and especially innovation under constraint,

504
00:56:54,904 --> 00:57:03,804
given that they didn't have access to the same type of super chips that the United States does because of controls put on them.

505
00:57:03,804 --> 00:57:13,944
But what the Chinese have done is copy the IMF World Bank model pushed by the United States and folded that into their Belt and Road Initiative.

506
00:57:13,944 --> 00:57:29,225
And now our exorbitant privilege has become their exorbitant privilege that they are using to flood Africa with this monetary neocolonialism and really gain a lot of influence in the area.

507
00:57:29,225 --> 00:57:52,024
So one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about, because this is Grant mentioned before we got on, he said it'd be interesting to hear you and I talk about this, because I have recently listened to the siren song and the great temptation of looking at mining Bitcoin in space using solar-based space power.

508
00:57:52,024 --> 00:58:02,845
So I'm part of a boot camp here at the network school led by Balaji Srinivasan and one of his fund partners.

509
00:58:03,685 --> 00:58:09,304
And the challenge was to come up with an idea that may change the world.

510
00:58:10,084 --> 00:58:18,384
And so I was sitting there and I was running through, in my mind, this sort of like stack of like, where does the world go?

511
00:58:18,384 --> 00:58:23,044
And so we know that code is crashing to the cost of compute, which is electricity.

512
00:58:24,004 --> 00:58:34,104
We actually just had a speaker who is from the company that makes the dog, the Chinese robot dog,

513
00:58:34,165 --> 00:58:39,165
that's like way cooler than the Boston Dynamics looking one.

514
00:58:39,345 --> 00:58:42,564
Like the Boston Dynamics one just looks like Terror and Terminator.

515
00:58:43,325 --> 00:58:46,044
The Chinese model is really cool.

516
00:58:46,044 --> 00:58:49,004
what is it, Chinese robot dog.

517
00:58:50,044 --> 00:58:55,144
It's called, it's not deep robotics, but anyways,

518
00:58:55,384 --> 00:58:57,444
so like, you know, they're cool as hell.

519
00:58:57,604 --> 00:59:00,245
Like they talk to you and they bounce up and down and blah, blah, blah.

520
00:59:00,705 --> 00:59:04,484
And anyways, during that talk, the guy noted that,

521
00:59:05,384 --> 00:59:08,404
he was like, you know, where does the future of robotics go?

522
00:59:08,404 --> 00:59:12,024
And he says, well, you know, hardware is crashing to the cost of metal.

523
00:59:12,024 --> 00:59:20,004
like the cost that it takes to extract the metal, which is effectively the cost of energy.

524
00:59:20,764 --> 00:59:25,825
So if hardware and software are both crashing to the cost of energy, then what's the play?

525
00:59:25,825 --> 00:59:36,524
Obviously, the play is acquire capital, apex capital, which is Bitcoin, for less than the cost that that capital is worth.

526
00:59:36,524 --> 01:00:02,084
And to me, that means that the only clear economic model that exists with a margin 50 years from now, not 5 or 10, but 50 or 20, even 25, the only clear model that continually exists with a margin is acquiring apex capital for less than the cost of capital, which to me means Bitcoin mining.

527
01:00:02,084 --> 01:00:09,504
And to me also says that one of the, like everything is a commodity in that stack.

528
01:00:09,764 --> 01:00:10,685
Bitcoin's a commodity.

529
01:00:10,904 --> 01:00:11,924
The miner's a commodity.

530
01:00:12,464 --> 01:00:13,484
Energy's a commodity.

531
01:00:13,764 --> 01:00:15,644
So how do you differentiate yourself?

532
01:00:16,044 --> 01:00:18,745
In a commodity market, you have to be the low cost producer.

533
01:00:18,964 --> 01:00:29,689
So you have to be the last guy to turn off the miner How do you do that You have to have free energy Okay let go to space That was my thought As you can see I have a mark on my head

534
01:00:30,349 --> 01:00:36,849
All the Indian guys were making fun of me. They said I look like an Indian gal with the red dot, the bindi.

535
01:00:37,289 --> 01:00:45,409
That's what they call it, the bindi. Because I ran into a tree, a fake tree, while thinking about this

536
01:00:45,409 --> 01:00:52,149
and was completely lost in space, lost in my mind, head-butted a tree, and had blood running down my face.

537
01:00:52,689 --> 01:00:59,069
And after three days of just continuous fighting this around every angle I could think of,

538
01:00:59,169 --> 01:01:01,369
I finally let it go by the wayside.

539
01:01:01,789 --> 01:01:04,709
But I learned a lot in the process.

540
01:01:05,149 --> 01:01:10,669
And so one of the things that I think is really important now

541
01:01:10,669 --> 01:01:14,629
that I probably didn't place as much emphasis on previously

542
01:01:14,629 --> 01:01:21,109
is Bitcoin miner engineering and production sovereignty.

543
01:01:21,889 --> 01:01:27,149
And so this is the reason why Jack Dorsey changed the focus of his company Block

544
01:01:27,149 --> 01:01:33,089
to creating Bitcoin miners, noting that there's basically two companies that create ASICs

545
01:01:33,089 --> 01:01:34,849
and they're Chinese.

546
01:01:35,649 --> 01:01:41,229
And so we don't have – it's very much a TSMC.

547
01:01:41,229 --> 01:01:49,909
it's a superconductor issue. Much like we think about Taiwan being this tug and, you know, push

548
01:01:49,909 --> 01:01:56,529
and pull United States, China, we are so dependent upon the superconductors that come out of Taiwan

549
01:01:56,529 --> 01:02:03,429
that it's, it's a potential that we may go to war over that. And so we are desperately trying

550
01:02:03,429 --> 01:02:10,469
to reshore as much of that inner as much as that capacity as possible but i actually feel that

551
01:02:10,469 --> 01:02:19,049
bitcoin miner production being sovereign is something that is a incredibly under thought

552
01:02:19,049 --> 01:02:26,789
under under attentioned issue and so being intimately involved in bitcoin mining yourself

553
01:02:26,789 --> 01:02:38,389
What are your thoughts and what can you tell us about the state of Bitcoin miner production and the advancement of Bitcoin miner production?

554
01:02:38,389 --> 01:02:57,949
So Bridger Industries obviously uses Bitcoin miners. Do they have an interest in or foresee a potential to become involved in creating Bitcoin miners and advancing the field in order to be at that bleeding edge where you are?

555
01:02:57,949 --> 01:03:01,869
you're already trying to find the cheapest energy with the stranded energy.

556
01:03:02,149 --> 01:03:08,189
And then the other side of that equation is to have the fastest horse, which is to have the most efficient miner.

557
01:03:08,889 --> 01:03:17,309
So what can you kind of tell us about the Bitcoin mining world as far as miners and where that's going?

558
01:03:18,269 --> 01:03:24,489
Because I can tell you that reengineering them to work in space, not a great idea, at least not right now.

559
01:03:24,829 --> 01:03:27,049
So what are we going to do with waterfalls, Ben?

560
01:03:27,049 --> 01:03:31,029
Yeah, well listen man, we have to think big

561
01:03:31,029 --> 01:03:36,189
So kudos to you for thinking about that

562
01:03:36,189 --> 01:03:39,649
And I encourage you to move it forward

563
01:03:39,649 --> 01:03:40,609
Did I lose you again?

564
01:03:41,389 --> 01:03:41,629
No

565
01:03:41,629 --> 01:03:42,409
Nope

566
01:03:42,409 --> 01:03:49,349
Another guy that I know is a Bitcoiner

567
01:03:49,349 --> 01:03:52,549
And certainly thinks a lot about space is Peter Diamandis

568
01:03:52,549 --> 01:03:54,229
You should probably talk to him

569
01:03:54,229 --> 01:03:57,789
and Balaji probably knows him, maybe you know him,

570
01:03:58,909 --> 01:04:01,089
but he would love to have a conversation with you.

571
01:04:01,489 --> 01:04:03,669
I would love to talk to Peter about this.

572
01:04:03,789 --> 01:04:07,029
This would be, yeah, a guy who is a rocket scientist, right,

573
01:04:07,569 --> 01:04:10,529
from MIT and also heavily involved in that.

574
01:04:10,909 --> 01:04:11,269
I'm great.

575
01:04:11,689 --> 01:04:13,569
If you can make the introduction, we'll get there.

576
01:04:13,569 --> 01:04:14,389
Maybe Balaji.

577
01:04:14,909 --> 01:04:17,569
Yeah, I don't know him personally, but, yeah, talk to Balaji.

578
01:04:18,289 --> 01:04:22,709
I've got a friend that participates in his Abundance 360 program,

579
01:04:22,849 --> 01:04:24,209
so I chat with him.

580
01:04:24,229 --> 01:04:26,369
and see if there's something there there.

581
01:04:27,669 --> 01:04:30,849
There's another friend of mine, a guy named Worth Ray,

582
01:04:31,769 --> 01:04:35,189
who is just a brilliant guy.

583
01:04:35,189 --> 01:04:42,089
He's right at the intersection of Bitcoin and space.

584
01:04:42,589 --> 01:04:50,629
His day-to-day is working with a company that's innovating on everything that's space and space adjacent.

585
01:04:50,629 --> 01:04:54,249
and part of that, and I'll just touch on it briefly

586
01:04:54,249 --> 01:04:56,689
because we can go forever down these rabbit holes,

587
01:04:57,809 --> 01:05:01,689
but Tocqueville would be very happy to hear you talk about going to space.

588
01:05:02,429 --> 01:05:05,269
I think that this is part of,

589
01:05:06,269 --> 01:05:09,569
this would be a salutary extension of the American experiment

590
01:05:09,569 --> 01:05:14,229
where we're continuing to push limits in a productive way

591
01:05:14,229 --> 01:05:18,269
and finding frontiers and pushing against those frontiers

592
01:05:18,269 --> 01:05:22,389
in order to kind of progress the human project.

593
01:05:24,229 --> 01:05:32,149
And, yeah, I think this administration is going to be moving in that direction as well.

594
01:05:35,149 --> 01:05:42,649
But on your question regarding Bitcoin miners, ASICs, the development around that,

595
01:05:42,649 --> 01:05:49,609
It's more complex than just having made-in-the-USA machines.

596
01:05:50,849 --> 01:05:55,589
There's a great company called Oradine that you guys should check out.

597
01:05:56,309 --> 01:06:03,089
I believe they took over Intel's chip that was being purpose-built for ASICS.

598
01:06:04,569 --> 01:06:08,069
They have a great team and company.

599
01:06:08,069 --> 01:06:16,249
I think Marathon, the Bitcoin mining company, has invested in them and is working on some projects with them.

600
01:06:16,869 --> 01:06:23,329
But that's a non-Chinese manufactured, built-for-purpose processor.

601
01:06:24,789 --> 01:06:34,089
And we need to do more of that, especially as we're cranking into an escalating trade war with China.

602
01:06:34,089 --> 01:06:37,449
these processors

603
01:06:37,449 --> 01:06:41,949
almost everything electronic is still coming out of Chinese production facilities

604
01:06:41,949 --> 01:06:43,489
whether in China or outside of China

605
01:06:43,489 --> 01:06:46,029
that's potentially a vulnerability

606
01:06:46,029 --> 01:06:51,649
as we move forward on what needs to advance

607
01:06:51,649 --> 01:06:55,449
with the increasing decentralization

608
01:06:55,449 --> 01:06:58,169
of hash rate and Bitcoin mining

609
01:06:58,169 --> 01:07:00,229
all over the world in the United States

610
01:07:00,229 --> 01:07:05,189
the downstream, I'm sorry, upstream of even

611
01:07:05,189 --> 01:07:09,629
what Oradine does and manufacturing more

612
01:07:09,629 --> 01:07:11,949
of these ASICs outside of China

613
01:07:11,949 --> 01:07:17,289
is, and this is where my work with ReElement

614
01:07:17,289 --> 01:07:21,349
kind of comes into play in understanding the critical mineral supply chain, almost

615
01:07:21,349 --> 01:07:25,509
all of the rare earth elements today are sent to

616
01:07:25,509 --> 01:07:29,749
China for processing inside of China. And so rare earth elements

617
01:07:29,749 --> 01:07:32,989
that need to be processed into rare earth oxides,

618
01:07:33,929 --> 01:07:40,029
whether it's light or heavy rare earths that go into ship manufacturing,

619
01:07:40,229 --> 01:07:41,849
go into semiconductor manufacturing.

620
01:07:42,389 --> 01:07:44,929
Right now China has a monopoly on that.

621
01:07:46,329 --> 01:07:48,289
And so what do we need to do?

622
01:07:48,389 --> 01:07:51,589
I mean, it's the same approach as downstream manufacturing.

623
01:07:52,129 --> 01:07:56,729
We need to leverage the best of American innovation,

624
01:07:56,969 --> 01:07:58,789
the best of American research institutes,

625
01:07:58,789 --> 01:08:03,129
the best minds, the collaborative American approach,

626
01:08:03,829 --> 01:08:09,269
to hitting new frontiers in technology and technology development

627
01:08:09,269 --> 01:08:15,449
to have a deflationary effect on the manufacturing of these products

628
01:08:15,449 --> 01:08:18,649
that compete and out-compete what China can do.

629
01:08:19,109 --> 01:08:22,029
Now, there's some real macroeconomic structural challenges

630
01:08:22,029 --> 01:08:23,869
that go back to Triffin Dilemma

631
01:08:24,869 --> 01:08:28,749
and the deal that was cut essentially 25 years ago

632
01:08:28,749 --> 01:08:34,029
which is, hey, China, you make everything, we get cheaper prices for our consumers in return,

633
01:08:35,389 --> 01:08:38,749
that we're going through a violent shift.

634
01:08:39,549 --> 01:08:47,289
I mean, it's just starting, I think, to upturn that apple cart.

635
01:08:48,169 --> 01:08:50,689
And part of it is painful, right, with tariffs

636
01:08:50,689 --> 01:08:59,629
and some of the steps that I think this administration is taking to be protective of U.S. industries

637
01:08:59,629 --> 01:09:05,709
that's going to have an inflationary impact and maybe deflationary on the markets in the near term.

638
01:09:06,229 --> 01:09:08,649
But it has to happen.

639
01:09:08,649 --> 01:09:19,789
But what we're doing on the re-element side is taking best-in-class technology towards a disruptive approach

640
01:09:19,789 --> 01:09:24,749
that allows us to refine critical minerals wherever they're found.

641
01:09:24,869 --> 01:09:27,289
So whether they're in the United States, whether they're in Africa,

642
01:09:27,489 --> 01:09:28,809
whether they're in Latin America.

643
01:09:29,429 --> 01:09:31,569
So we can be scalable, we can be modular,

644
01:09:31,569 --> 01:09:37,469
and we can do it on a cost basis that outcompetes what China can do inside of China.

645
01:09:38,689 --> 01:09:46,549
And that then enables the resources that are under the earth in Africa and Latin America

646
01:09:46,549 --> 01:09:51,609
in the United States to be refined in region

647
01:09:51,609 --> 01:09:56,849
and kind of contributes to the idea of resource nationalism,

648
01:09:57,349 --> 01:10:01,829
those countries don't want to export raw commodities to China for processing

649
01:10:01,829 --> 01:10:10,989
and China for those value-added goods to then come back thousands of miles downstream into manufacturing.

650
01:10:11,449 --> 01:10:13,509
And by the way, not in Africa.

651
01:10:13,509 --> 01:10:33,549
So how do you work with countries, and this goes back to Bitcoin mining as well, and the base resource of energy, and refining that energy into monetary-grade energy through Bitcoin mining?

652
01:10:33,549 --> 01:10:43,649
The same thing has to happen on raw commodities that need to be refined into manufacturing-grade commodities,

653
01:10:44,489 --> 01:10:52,529
where the resources lie in a decentralized way to diversify and make supply chains more resilient

654
01:10:52,529 --> 01:11:01,549
and then move those materials downstream into the manufacturing of ex-China ASICs.

655
01:11:01,549 --> 01:11:15,809
Not that all ASICs should be made outside of China, but it should not be a situation where 95% or 97% or whatever the number is are coming from a single-source industrial center.

656
01:11:16,149 --> 01:11:18,869
That's not good for any industry.

657
01:11:18,869 --> 01:11:38,689
It's arguably not good for China if they want to benefit from global supply chains that are diversified and resilient that are supportive of manufacturing for needs all over the world.

658
01:11:39,349 --> 01:11:45,349
So I think that's a long answer to your question, but there's a couple components to it, right?

659
01:11:45,349 --> 01:11:59,689
So we've really got to figure out how to, on a structural basis, bring industry, making real things a thing again, outside of China, inside of the United States.

660
01:12:00,829 --> 01:12:08,269
And there are fiscal and monetary issues and challenges that need to be overcome.

661
01:12:08,269 --> 01:12:17,549
but the bottom line is that yes, there are companies that are able to do this,

662
01:12:17,609 --> 01:12:24,409
that want to do this, but are hamstrung by vulnerabilities and weaknesses

663
01:12:24,409 --> 01:12:26,649
along the entire value chain.

664
01:12:26,649 --> 01:12:32,469
And so whether it's a Bitcoin miner, an ASIC,

665
01:12:32,469 --> 01:12:40,109
or it's a magnet that you need for an F-35 to perform,

666
01:12:40,569 --> 01:12:43,549
you've got to look at that entire value chain.

667
01:12:44,249 --> 01:12:45,749
Where does the resource come from?

668
01:12:46,849 --> 01:12:50,669
Where does that resource, that base resource, whether it's critical mineral or energy,

669
01:12:51,189 --> 01:12:54,209
where does it need to go to be processed?

670
01:12:54,869 --> 01:12:58,349
And then once it's processed into manufacturing grade,

671
01:12:58,349 --> 01:13:05,249
where does it go for manufacturing and building an industrial base

672
01:13:05,249 --> 01:13:11,369
where we haven't had an industrial base for arguably two and a half decades.

673
01:13:12,929 --> 01:13:23,029
And then really, in addition to making the Bitcoin ecosystem as strong as it can be

674
01:13:23,029 --> 01:13:30,789
and not have a segment of it dependent on single-source manufacturing,

675
01:13:31,189 --> 01:13:44,069
this is also what absolutely needs to happen to bring high-wage industrial jobs

676
01:13:44,069 --> 01:13:50,549
based off of manufacturing real things back to the U.S.

677
01:13:50,549 --> 01:13:57,309
where the absence of that has created a social and economic blight

678
01:13:57,309 --> 01:14:00,949
to include the real horror story,

679
01:14:01,169 --> 01:14:03,649
which is something that's probably touched you guys in different ways

680
01:14:03,649 --> 01:14:04,829
and definitely touched my life,

681
01:14:05,389 --> 01:14:10,489
which is in the absence of a productive life and commodious life,

682
01:14:10,489 --> 01:14:16,869
building real things in face-to-face relationship with your neighbor,

683
01:14:16,869 --> 01:14:26,469
people turn to substitutes for the real thing, which in many cases has been opium or opiates,

684
01:14:26,609 --> 01:14:35,789
has been fentanyl, has been a lot of the drug abuse that's claimed hundreds of thousands

685
01:14:35,789 --> 01:14:38,949
of young Americans.

686
01:14:39,669 --> 01:14:41,829
So it's all connected.

687
01:14:41,829 --> 01:14:47,249
And it's daunting to try to get a grip on it.

688
01:14:47,469 --> 01:14:53,449
But conversations like this that start with what is Bitcoin and the Bitcoin ecosystem,

689
01:14:53,609 --> 01:14:56,909
Bitcoin mining in Africa doing to make the world a better place,

690
01:14:56,989 --> 01:15:05,329
quickly goes to answering some of these core issues that are going to determine whether our future is great

691
01:15:05,329 --> 01:15:08,449
or our future is dystopian.

692
01:15:08,869 --> 01:15:09,809
It is all connected.

693
01:15:09,809 --> 01:15:15,509
I'm just going to point out that this answers a question that was developing my mind.

694
01:15:15,669 --> 01:15:31,609
You mentioned that Bitcoin could be a salutary constraint to help impose a constraint on our freedom and return us to a more vibrant type of localism, a habit of the heart, like local politics, religious conviction, family life, these types of things.

695
01:15:31,609 --> 01:15:48,249
And I was wondering, as you said that, it sounded like a very bleak and dire prognostication for the United States, Western liberalism, more broadly speaking, that maybe we have Bitcoin as one salutary constraint, but that's, you know, what else is there?

696
01:15:48,249 --> 01:16:05,329
But I like where you've developed that, that once we take a fuller picture, maybe we can return manufacturing jobs to the United States and that can, with higher wages, give people a bigger stake in their community and return some more meaning to people's lives.

697
01:16:05,329 --> 01:16:26,409
And so I guess I wanted to toss that question back to you, though, and see how hopeful are you, I guess, that these local institutions, these types of things, this like strong situatedness of people in a social context in their community, development of personal virtues, development of a sense of meaning.

698
01:16:26,409 --> 01:16:34,229
if things go the right way, Bitcoin develops into a dominant monetary protocol that many people use.

699
01:16:34,729 --> 01:16:39,709
Are you hopeful that the United States can reignite from the bottom up into a sort of vibrant localism?

700
01:16:40,989 --> 01:16:46,249
Yeah, I think we've got to be hopeful, and I'm absolutely hopeful.

701
01:16:47,069 --> 01:16:54,749
I mean, I was hopeful when we were writing this book, which was kind of intended for policymakers

702
01:16:54,749 --> 01:16:58,929
and to inform folks on the Hill and in the interagency,

703
01:16:59,669 --> 01:17:06,729
especially those that we felt were ill-informed in the context of Chokepoint 2.0

704
01:17:06,729 --> 01:17:17,049
and an administration that at most levels was taking a very adversarial approach to Bitcoin

705
01:17:17,049 --> 01:17:23,049
and what Bitcoin represented to, I mean, in a very short period of time.

706
01:17:24,749 --> 01:17:31,769
Not that I love Trump and everything that he stands for,

707
01:17:31,769 --> 01:17:39,389
but it is almost unbelievable to see that in a matter of months,

708
01:17:40,149 --> 01:17:45,849
that as the most powerful country in the world,

709
01:17:45,849 --> 01:18:08,289
We've taken on kind of the most pro-Bitcoin, pro-what Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining can do for the future of innovation and for really putting us on firm footing from a fiscal and monetary perspective.

710
01:18:08,669 --> 01:18:10,509
I just couldn't have ever predicted that.

711
01:18:11,089 --> 01:18:12,249
It's extraordinary.

712
01:18:12,469 --> 01:18:14,329
So that gives me even more hope.

713
01:18:14,329 --> 01:18:31,049
But I will say that the trope of Bitcoin fixes this, I generally disagree with because Bitcoin, I think, is an essential part of what's going to fix a lot of things.

714
01:18:31,629 --> 01:18:35,569
But one, nothing ever gets fixed completely.

715
01:18:36,309 --> 01:18:38,569
And I come from a Judeo-Christian background.

716
01:18:38,769 --> 01:18:39,349
I'm a Christian.

717
01:18:39,349 --> 01:18:49,249
I, you know, my personal belief is that, you know, we are in a, you know, we're in a fallen state.

718
01:18:49,469 --> 01:18:52,629
We're never going to be, we're not perfectible.

719
01:18:53,269 --> 01:19:05,189
The temptation to be perfectible can take us to, you know, a very dystopian Chinese or, you know, techno dystopian tyrannical outcome.

720
01:19:06,189 --> 01:19:07,929
And that's very dangerous.

721
01:19:07,929 --> 01:19:14,309
we need to figure out what it is based off of our understanding of the human condition

722
01:19:14,309 --> 01:19:18,129
is going to make things better.

723
01:19:18,609 --> 01:19:20,549
What constraints do we need to put on ourselves?

724
01:19:21,249 --> 01:19:25,049
What structures do we need to opt into?

725
01:19:25,849 --> 01:19:32,529
What things that come into this earthly realm of coming into being and passing away

726
01:19:32,529 --> 01:19:41,829
are most representative of immutable, call it divine, truth.

727
01:19:42,849 --> 01:19:46,729
And Bitcoin, this is part of what just really, really grabbed me

728
01:19:46,729 --> 01:19:50,349
as I got sucked into the rabbit hole about five years ago,

729
01:19:51,169 --> 01:19:59,229
was that it seems to me to be as close as we can come to an instantiation

730
01:19:59,229 --> 01:20:06,229
in this broken temporal world, an instantiation of divine immutable truth

731
01:20:06,229 --> 01:20:15,809
that cannot be altered, cannot be changed by a small group of people

732
01:20:15,809 --> 01:20:23,389
based off of kind of parochial interest and needs.

733
01:20:23,389 --> 01:20:42,509
And I think that is something that is, in addition to that aching sense at some scale in the United States and I think in Europe as well,

734
01:20:42,509 --> 01:21:03,789
especially among young populations, that the promise of technology plus kind of supranational managerial elite control was going to deliver and just did not,

735
01:21:04,469 --> 01:21:11,269
especially at the kind of existential commodious living level.

736
01:21:11,269 --> 01:21:41,249
So Bitcoin, I think, is one of those rare things that comes into humanity at just the time that it's needed that is either an anchor or at a minimum supportive of a renewal, a reawakening, a rebirth to take us back to kind of fundamental truths around what it means.

737
01:21:41,269 --> 01:22:00,349
It means to live a good life with our neighbors and in a way that reinforces competent living that is never going to be perfect, is always going to be far from perfect,

738
01:22:00,349 --> 01:22:10,749
but pushes us in the direction of striving towards something that we have to work on together

739
01:22:10,749 --> 01:22:18,229
that is going to bring a better outcome that is going to build real things

740
01:22:18,229 --> 01:22:23,829
and is going to create real productive growth,

741
01:22:23,829 --> 01:22:33,049
not abstract kind of financialized, government-led spending-type growth

742
01:22:33,049 --> 01:22:38,289
and then fiscal stimulus that patches things up as things kind of fall apart.

743
01:22:39,029 --> 01:22:41,909
So, yeah, I mean, it's tough to have these conversations, guys,

744
01:22:41,989 --> 01:22:47,049
because it's just so much to put your arms around,

745
01:22:47,049 --> 01:23:06,329
But it's wonderful to have them because there's just so many components of what's going on in the world that are being knitted together that can take us in a couple of different directions.

746
01:23:06,329 --> 01:23:13,209
But I'm an optimist at heart.

747
01:23:13,589 --> 01:23:19,069
I think that we're living through an incredible time in history.

748
01:23:19,189 --> 01:23:20,349
We've never seen it before.

749
01:23:21,049 --> 01:23:29,149
And I think if we can survive some real geopolitical test without, you know,

750
01:23:29,149 --> 01:23:35,769
attempting nuclear exchange, we're going to pop out the other side of this transition period

751
01:23:35,769 --> 01:23:44,889
with a real kind of renewal of the human spirit.

752
01:23:45,809 --> 01:23:51,869
Yeah, I want to echo a little bit of what you're saying,

753
01:23:51,869 --> 01:23:56,529
maybe throw a bit of water on the fire, not intentionally, but just from observation.

754
01:23:56,529 --> 01:24:00,569
so the reason I am where I am

755
01:24:00,569 --> 01:24:02,869
I'm at the network school in Malaysia

756
01:24:02,869 --> 01:24:06,609
which is the instantiation of Balaji Srinivasan's theory

757
01:24:06,609 --> 01:24:09,749
thesis that just as you said

758
01:24:09,749 --> 01:24:11,149
you can't fix things

759
01:24:11,149 --> 01:24:14,189
if you read the network state

760
01:24:14,189 --> 01:24:16,889
you can basically sum it up by saying

761
01:24:16,889 --> 01:24:18,769
if you look throughout history

762
01:24:18,769 --> 01:24:20,889
when things go awry

763
01:24:20,889 --> 01:24:22,689
they never get better

764
01:24:22,689 --> 01:24:25,529
something new emerges from that

765
01:24:25,529 --> 01:24:36,649
and the old falls away. And so we have a crumbling United States empire. We have a

766
01:24:37,169 --> 01:24:48,309
autocracy in China that is being challenged by the internet and the freedoms that that allows.

767
01:24:48,309 --> 01:24:54,669
and so we are stuck it's very much a rock in a hard place and and they're

768
01:24:55,409 --> 01:25:04,909
patriotically you really want to hope for yeah let's reshore let's bring these high-paying jobs

769
01:25:04,909 --> 01:25:11,449
back let's recreate this middle class but in reality i don't i don't think that happens because

770
01:25:11,449 --> 01:25:18,209
i think the only way that you can economically do that is to do what china is actually already

771
01:25:18,209 --> 01:25:28,449
doing which is creating these insane scale and mainly robotic facilities what they call dark

772
01:25:28,449 --> 01:25:36,929
factories right um we we had a speaker the other day who was telling us about um i don't you may

773
01:25:36,929 --> 01:25:43,269
remember if you're if you're ever on social media i i used to i used to be on um i used to be on

774
01:25:43,269 --> 01:25:50,989
Instagram every once in a while and I would see this uh this gal from China who would pop up and

775
01:25:50,989 --> 01:25:57,309
there would be this little music and she was like if you want shoes this is the city in China you

776
01:25:57,309 --> 01:26:03,249
get them from if you want umbrellas this is the city in China you get them from and I and she

777
01:26:03,249 --> 01:26:09,089
would just name like products and then say the name of the city no cities of course I've ever

778
01:26:09,089 --> 01:26:16,729
heard of like they we don't know what they are um in america but um this speaker that we had

779
01:26:16,729 --> 01:26:21,969
clarified he's like you know it's really hard to compete with what the chinese are doing because

780
01:26:21,969 --> 01:26:29,269
they literally build cities around one product so that there's a sock city in china i can't

781
01:26:29,269 --> 01:26:36,569
remember what the name of it is but like all the socks come from one city and that city is centered

782
01:26:36,569 --> 01:26:44,049
around producing socks and that's it um and you may see uh there's floating around the internet

783
01:26:44,049 --> 01:26:52,109
you may see uh some news here lately of the byd which is the tesla copycat um car i see them

784
01:26:52,109 --> 01:26:57,469
driving around here in malaysia all the time and they are straight up teslas like there's there it's

785
01:26:57,469 --> 01:27:07,229
Tesla. But they are out Elon-ing Elon when it comes to gigafactories. The new BYD facility

786
01:27:07,229 --> 01:27:16,969
is famously larger than the city of San Francisco. If you look at Elon's gigafactories,

787
01:27:17,089 --> 01:27:22,609
they're about four and a half square miles. The BYD facility is like 50 square miles

788
01:27:22,609 --> 01:27:25,089
just to produce cars.

789
01:27:25,309 --> 01:27:30,749
So I think we want to hope that we can bring that stuff back,

790
01:27:30,749 --> 01:27:34,669
but I think reality, the economics of it, and what we're competing against

791
01:27:34,669 --> 01:27:41,849
makes that just so incredibly difficult that the only way is,

792
01:27:42,409 --> 01:27:47,189
and I have this argument with myself all the time, and I keep settling on it,

793
01:27:47,269 --> 01:27:52,389
that the reason why we hit stagnation is because we had dirty money that melted away

794
01:27:52,389 --> 01:27:55,009
at a rate of 12% every year.

795
01:27:55,629 --> 01:28:01,089
And if you have a cost of capital that you need to hurdle every year that's 12%,

796
01:28:01,089 --> 01:28:07,689
and you're a public company, which means you have quarterly reports and annual reports

797
01:28:07,689 --> 01:28:16,309
and short-term focus, then it's way easier to try and you're not even jumping over that hurdle.

798
01:28:16,309 --> 01:28:18,869
You're just like barely crawling over it by saying,

799
01:28:18,869 --> 01:28:26,989
we're going to go in the direction of scale and growth as opposed to the direction of innovation and world-changing,

800
01:28:27,369 --> 01:28:30,489
world-just changing things fundamentally.

801
01:28:30,869 --> 01:28:36,489
It's way easier to say if we build another wing and hire 50,000 more employees,

802
01:28:37,009 --> 01:28:41,569
then we can crank out X more widgets and have Y more sales,

803
01:28:41,569 --> 01:28:49,489
as opposed to if we throw 40% of everything we make into research and innovation,

804
01:28:50,109 --> 01:28:52,389
maybe something comes out of it in 10 years.

805
01:28:52,629 --> 01:28:56,689
Like that nobody wants to hear that in a Fortune 500 board meeting

806
01:28:56,689 --> 01:29:01,149
because that tanks the stock.

807
01:29:02,429 --> 01:29:04,149
And so it does.

808
01:29:04,209 --> 01:29:05,909
It puts us in a very difficult place.

809
01:29:06,089 --> 01:29:08,449
I as well, by the way, am incredibly optimistic.

810
01:29:08,449 --> 01:29:23,449
I think that as we elevate the level of accomplishment with the aid of technology, we also elevate the level of human performance.

811
01:29:24,589 --> 01:29:33,569
And there's a great parallel to this, by the way, which is the deep blue moment in chess in like 1996 or 8 or whenever it was.

812
01:29:33,569 --> 01:29:54,209
But when artificial intelligence first surpassed human intelligence when the deep blue computer beat Garry Kasparov, what happened since then is that chess has been solved by computers at a level that humans can never approach.

813
01:29:54,789 --> 01:29:59,249
However, if you look around, the chess world is exploding.

814
01:30:00,049 --> 01:30:04,089
Chess is more popular now than it's ever been 30 years later.

815
01:30:04,489 --> 01:30:09,109
The average level of gameplay is higher than it's ever been 30 years later.

816
01:30:09,789 --> 01:30:14,709
And I think you compare this to like the Roger Bannister moment in running.

817
01:30:14,709 --> 01:30:20,149
When Roger Bannister broke the four-minute mile, all of a sudden everybody started doing it

818
01:30:20,149 --> 01:30:24,449
because something that was previously thought impossible became possible.

819
01:30:24,449 --> 01:30:41,534
And I think the analogy that what we can draw from the deep blue moment in chess is that it doesn matter if a human breaks that or if a computer breaks it Just raising the bar seems to raise human performance

820
01:30:41,534 --> 01:30:48,354
And I think that's a beautiful thing that we're going to see become more and more clear.

821
01:30:48,613 --> 01:30:50,633
I think we're seeing it with music right now.

822
01:30:51,173 --> 01:30:58,454
We're seeing just incredibly rich and new, innovative ways to make and create music

823
01:30:58,454 --> 01:31:05,574
assisted by technology that are at a level that we never could have considered before.

824
01:31:05,854 --> 01:31:07,454
So I agree with you.

825
01:31:07,534 --> 01:31:08,454
I'm an optimist.

826
01:31:09,733 --> 01:31:16,934
Maybe not in the idea that we're going to be able to compete in terms of recreating a middle class,

827
01:31:17,554 --> 01:31:26,633
but that we are opening avenues for deepening the richness and robustness of the human experience

828
01:31:26,633 --> 01:31:29,253
by heightening that human performance level.

829
01:31:30,633 --> 01:31:33,054
So I didn't really have a question there.

830
01:31:33,173 --> 01:31:38,333
I just wanted to kind of tag on to that and say that I agree with you.

831
01:31:38,333 --> 01:31:42,434
I think we're moving in a good direction regardless of the turmoil that we're entering,

832
01:31:42,994 --> 01:31:45,934
possibly the fourth turning of it.

833
01:31:46,213 --> 01:31:48,173
And you make a good point.

834
01:31:48,273 --> 01:31:51,854
It's like, look, there's a meme right now that I saw floating around

835
01:31:51,854 --> 01:31:57,074
that's the silhouette of a guy and his head is just exploded to cover the entire frame.

836
01:31:57,653 --> 01:31:59,034
And the caption is something like,

837
01:31:59,574 --> 01:32:06,753
I just thought Bitcoin might be cool and now I know everything about the universe or something like that.

838
01:32:06,753 --> 01:32:11,653
It's like every rabbit hole that could have existed is tied to this.

839
01:32:12,434 --> 01:32:14,233
And you learn that it's all there.

840
01:32:14,233 --> 01:32:15,454
I have a question to tag on at the end of that.

841
01:32:15,693 --> 01:32:16,753
Please save me.

842
01:32:16,753 --> 01:32:32,753
So the optimism that you have and the hope that Ben has expressed to, I'm actually wondering, so you've noted that Tocqueville is somebody that you draw a lot of inspiration from.

843
01:32:32,753 --> 01:32:47,113
Can you recommend to us any other thinkers or philosophers that have given you hope or that have helped you flesh out your worldview?

844
01:32:47,233 --> 01:32:57,414
Because you said this is a difficult subject to talk about, like the meaning crisis in relation to Bitcoin and industrial reshoring, but it's all connected.

845
01:32:57,894 --> 01:32:59,233
And it definitely is.

846
01:32:59,273 --> 01:33:01,173
And I think you're very good at talking about it, too.

847
01:33:01,173 --> 01:33:05,574
I really like that in this article, how you wove Tocqueville into it.

848
01:33:05,653 --> 01:33:10,693
You don't often see any kind of a technical article, that sort of grounding in philosophy.

849
01:33:11,153 --> 01:33:17,394
And I'm wondering if there's anything further you would want to recommend to help people draw some hope from this

850
01:33:17,394 --> 01:33:26,434
and to see some inspiration about how we can renew kind of our civic roots and, you know, make America great again in the broadest sense.

851
01:33:27,814 --> 01:33:28,333
Yeah.

852
01:33:28,333 --> 01:33:31,074
so

853
01:33:31,074 --> 01:33:33,434
yeah one guy that I

854
01:33:33,434 --> 01:33:35,054
like to talk about I think I

855
01:33:35,054 --> 01:33:36,593
quote him

856
01:33:36,593 --> 01:33:38,833
in the paper

857
01:33:38,833 --> 01:33:41,633
was a professor of mine in Georgetown

858
01:33:41,633 --> 01:33:43,713
named

859
01:33:43,713 --> 01:33:45,613
Josh Mitchell and

860
01:33:45,613 --> 01:33:46,414
he

861
01:33:46,414 --> 01:33:49,593
wrote a book called American

862
01:33:49,593 --> 01:33:51,354
Awakening I can send it to you guys

863
01:33:51,354 --> 01:33:53,554
after the

864
01:33:53,554 --> 01:33:54,333
call

865
01:33:54,333 --> 01:33:56,873
but

866
01:33:56,873 --> 01:34:04,293
Yeah, he, take it back to Tocqueville, I mean, you know, one of the classes that he gives at Georgetown is on Tocqueville.

867
01:34:04,414 --> 01:34:05,914
He's probably the foremost scholar on him.

868
01:34:06,854 --> 01:34:16,934
But he, you know, draws from some of the greats from the Western canon to include, you know, Plato and Hobbes.

869
01:34:16,934 --> 01:34:25,394
and really putting together a framework to help us understand where we are today

870
01:34:25,394 --> 01:34:35,474
and what are the perils, but what also are the opportunities.

871
01:34:35,773 --> 01:34:42,474
And so one of the things that he really focuses on, and he does it in a very erudite way,

872
01:34:42,474 --> 01:34:48,054
and it's something that you see talked about a good bit

873
01:34:48,054 --> 01:34:52,713
because of the debate around wokeism and identity politics.

874
01:34:53,494 --> 01:34:58,373
But it's essentially that, and he draws on far more folks

875
01:34:58,373 --> 01:35:00,073
than who I just mentioned,

876
01:35:02,773 --> 01:35:10,293
but it is that at our core, we are a religious animal.

877
01:35:10,293 --> 01:35:23,833
We have to believe in something. We will ascribe categories of life into the religious realm, whether we're admitting it or not.

878
01:35:23,833 --> 01:35:41,974
And so in the American context, it's very interesting the move towards identity politics, categories around different classes beyond just male and female, the whole transgender stuff.

879
01:35:41,974 --> 01:35:53,994
this has become essentially a replacement for a Protestant form of Christianity in America

880
01:35:53,994 --> 01:36:03,793
and with folks not really understanding that but needing to understand that that's the foundation from which America arose

881
01:36:03,793 --> 01:36:14,554
and that it has distorted itself or it has translated kind of the language of Protestantism

882
01:36:14,554 --> 01:36:20,113
to things like identity politics, to, you know, wokeism,

883
01:36:20,814 --> 01:36:28,534
to, you know, focus on climate change kind of as a religion,

884
01:36:28,534 --> 01:36:36,494
and all of these different things that become like the universals that need to guide us.

885
01:36:36,494 --> 01:36:48,833
And then underneath it, they have instituted a very kind of harsh Protestant form of enforcement around it,

886
01:36:48,934 --> 01:36:58,354
like a very puritanical way of expressing and executing that form of puritanism.

887
01:36:58,534 --> 01:37:05,414
and that then dislocates or attaches itself to political systems.

888
01:37:06,173 --> 01:37:14,894
And so in as much as we pride ourselves on what it means to be a free people

889
01:37:14,894 --> 01:37:22,293
and the separation of church and state as being kind of a fundamental part of our constitutional order

890
01:37:22,293 --> 01:37:30,514
and the freedom of religious expression, we have fused a new type of religion to the state

891
01:37:30,514 --> 01:37:39,673
through the enforcement of these, what are at their base form,

892
01:37:39,673 --> 01:37:46,434
kind of religious ways of identifying ourselves.

893
01:37:46,434 --> 01:37:55,373
and that when it's untethered from a religion, it doesn't have to be Judeo-Christian,

894
01:37:55,373 --> 01:38:03,894
but one that is at its fundament, one that recognizes the imperfectibility of the human condition

895
01:38:03,894 --> 01:38:13,094
and the fact that we need constant renewal, we need redemption, we need to be able to forgive each other,

896
01:38:13,094 --> 01:38:16,673
we need to not live in the past, we need to move forward,

897
01:38:17,373 --> 01:38:22,494
we get into a cycle of kind of neo-paganism.

898
01:38:23,273 --> 01:38:30,454
And so this neo-paganism is one that is in constant search of a scapegoat,

899
01:38:31,233 --> 01:38:37,994
and that scapegoat in this formulation might be a white heterosexual male,

900
01:38:37,994 --> 01:38:43,394
and that scapegoat needs to be sacrificed at the altar

901
01:38:43,394 --> 01:38:45,974
and that never stops

902
01:38:45,974 --> 01:38:51,213
because in the pagan understanding of how the world must operate

903
01:38:51,213 --> 01:38:55,713
to be at some form of peace or tranquility

904
01:38:55,713 --> 01:38:59,554
with the gods that govern the world around us,

905
01:38:59,873 --> 01:39:03,333
you have to constantly be making,

906
01:39:03,333 --> 01:39:13,213
choosing sacrifices that can resolve the cycles of blood feuds.

907
01:39:14,613 --> 01:39:22,193
And the Christian slash Christian philosophical thrust

908
01:39:22,193 --> 01:39:30,034
that came into the formation of the U.S. or the American project

909
01:39:30,034 --> 01:39:36,633
was pretty important even if you aren't a Christian,

910
01:39:37,354 --> 01:39:41,474
but you understand that you need renewal, you need redemption.

911
01:39:41,474 --> 01:39:44,314
There's an understanding that there's always going to be a delta

912
01:39:44,314 --> 01:39:52,454
between principles and foundational constitutional order and practice.

913
01:39:52,454 --> 01:40:14,394
And so it can be at once true that we have fantastic principles that should be followed, but we also are always falling short.

914
01:40:14,394 --> 01:40:31,814
But in falling short of those principles, we elect not to go back to the pre-Christian pagan foundations of selecting scapegoats to crucify or to purify ourselves.

915
01:40:31,814 --> 01:40:45,014
And so being able to move forward in a manner that doesn't look back on the past, understands our imperfectibility, understands that we are in constant need of redemption.

916
01:40:45,014 --> 01:40:54,333
and the only way to move forward as a society that brings together a number of different peoples and backgrounds into a common project

917
01:40:54,333 --> 01:41:06,314
is by putting our feet on the ground and detaching ourselves from these kind of universal secular religions

918
01:41:06,314 --> 01:41:11,974
and actually just living a commodious life together and working on projects together

919
01:41:11,974 --> 01:41:18,113
and doing that in a slow but durable fashion.

920
01:41:19,113 --> 01:41:26,534
And Bitcoin then comes back into that picture of this is a salutary constraint.

921
01:41:26,733 --> 01:41:34,394
This is something that becomes kind of the basis of value exchange,

922
01:41:35,054 --> 01:41:39,273
can be counted on not as something that is going to solve all problems

923
01:41:39,273 --> 01:41:41,733
and certainly not solve tomorrow's problem,

924
01:41:41,974 --> 01:41:45,633
of meeting our debt ceiling obligations,

925
01:41:45,633 --> 01:42:01,673
but is going to help us move forward in a slow, durable way with our fellows

926
01:42:01,673 --> 01:42:08,954
and in a manner that can't be modified from its core immutability

927
01:42:08,954 --> 01:42:16,253
is something that we can rely on outside of parochial interest.

928
01:42:16,934 --> 01:42:19,474
So anyway, Josh Mitchell, awesome.

929
01:42:21,113 --> 01:42:22,994
I'll send that to you.

930
01:42:22,994 --> 01:42:30,773
I actually reached out to him on his work and what I've been thinking about with Bitcoin.

931
01:42:30,994 --> 01:42:32,273
I'm not sure he's ready to go there.

932
01:42:32,273 --> 01:42:49,693
But he wrote a chapter in the book that is only on fiat and how fiat is essentially an example of platonic substitutism.

933
01:42:49,693 --> 01:43:03,954
And so something that, similar to medicine, is in the right measure something that can be helpful to the human project,

934
01:43:04,193 --> 01:43:16,014
but when it becomes something that transfers from supplement to substitute, kills the project.

935
01:43:16,014 --> 01:43:20,094
or in the case of medicine, if you have too much of the medicine

936
01:43:20,094 --> 01:43:24,373
or if you use vitamins only instead of food, it's going to kill the patient.

937
01:43:26,554 --> 01:43:32,854
Yeah, no, that's exactly the direction that I thought you might go

938
01:43:32,854 --> 01:43:36,454
if I pushed you a little bit on kind of the roots of your thinking.

939
01:43:36,673 --> 01:43:42,414
I hear echoes of, I don't know if this is Mitchell, this is you,

940
01:43:42,414 --> 01:43:45,333
but of Rene Girard, of Alistair McIntyre.

941
01:43:45,333 --> 01:44:01,514
Yeah, a lot of these thinkers. And I will just throw out there, too. I think that you mentioned getting our feet back on the ground as kind of resituating us in relation to universals and not being and losing a sense of perfectibility.

942
01:44:01,514 --> 01:44:06,474
in doing that, getting our feedback on the ground

943
01:44:06,474 --> 01:44:09,133
getting out, making and building things as you say

944
01:44:09,133 --> 01:44:11,394
having salutary constraints like Bitcoin

945
01:44:11,394 --> 01:44:14,713
another thing that I think can really help situate us

946
01:44:14,713 --> 01:44:17,474
is just paying attention to really good art

947
01:44:17,474 --> 01:44:20,414
and re-situating our cultural productions

948
01:44:20,414 --> 01:44:23,974
around perpetuating a meaning

949
01:44:23,974 --> 01:44:25,994
that is based in social context

950
01:44:25,994 --> 01:44:27,994
and situatedness and development of virtues

951
01:44:27,994 --> 01:44:30,394
and I wanted to recommend, I just saw this movie recently

952
01:44:30,394 --> 01:44:31,954
so it's top of mind, but there's

953
01:44:31,954 --> 01:44:34,434
Thomas Vinterberg has a movie called

954
01:44:34,434 --> 01:44:35,954
The Hunt that

955
01:44:35,954 --> 01:44:38,554
stars Mads Mikkelsen, it's a, I believe

956
01:44:38,554 --> 01:44:40,014
Scandinavian Danish movie

957
01:44:40,014 --> 01:44:42,414
but it's a good depiction of

958
01:44:42,414 --> 01:44:44,434
that ending a cycle of memetic

959
01:44:44,434 --> 01:44:46,534
violence through trying to

960
01:44:46,534 --> 01:44:47,954
ritually sacrifice somebody

961
01:44:47,954 --> 01:44:50,233
in the context of a false accusation

962
01:44:50,233 --> 01:44:51,833
like a Me Too type sexual

963
01:44:51,833 --> 01:44:54,554
accusation of sexual abuse, the whole community

964
01:44:54,554 --> 01:44:56,054
goes after Mads Mikkelsen

965
01:44:56,054 --> 01:44:58,213
and only through

966
01:44:58,213 --> 01:45:00,113
a moment made

967
01:45:00,113 --> 01:45:06,594
possible by faith is the community able to resituate itself without offering a sacrifice

968
01:45:06,594 --> 01:45:11,014
to kind of propitiate all of the circle of violence that's occurring.

969
01:45:11,554 --> 01:45:13,673
So I'm really glad that you recommended that book.

970
01:45:13,733 --> 01:45:14,814
I really want to check that out.

971
01:45:15,414 --> 01:45:19,914
Maybe it's a slight left turn of a question, but I really wanted, I don't want to lose

972
01:45:19,914 --> 01:45:20,133
this.

973
01:45:20,193 --> 01:45:23,613
I'm going to get your thoughts on the strategic Bitcoin reserve.

974
01:45:23,613 --> 01:45:25,394
specifically

975
01:45:25,394 --> 01:45:28,293
you know I follow Nick Carter

976
01:45:28,293 --> 01:45:29,873
and George Selgin on Twitter

977
01:45:29,873 --> 01:45:32,253
and they're two critics of the strategic Bitcoin

978
01:45:32,253 --> 01:45:34,253
reserve because they don't

979
01:45:34,253 --> 01:45:36,213
see the strategic element in it

980
01:45:36,213 --> 01:45:38,414
and you know as a career diplomat

981
01:45:38,414 --> 01:45:39,974
and as previous

982
01:45:39,974 --> 01:45:42,253
having had a career as a diplomat yourself

983
01:45:42,253 --> 01:45:44,173
and also

984
01:45:44,173 --> 01:45:45,894
you know having

985
01:45:45,894 --> 01:45:48,253
done all the reading and research you've done

986
01:45:48,253 --> 01:45:50,293
in this article what is your

987
01:45:50,293 --> 01:45:52,014
response you give to somebody who would say okay

988
01:45:52,014 --> 01:46:00,534
Bitcoin, it's great as maybe a future technology or as a personal investment, but does the United

989
01:46:00,534 --> 01:46:07,213
States having Strategic Bitcoin Reserve help in relation to encouraging Africa to adopt it in a

990
01:46:07,213 --> 01:46:11,773
way that counters CCP influence or something like that? Or what's a case you might make for the

991
01:46:11,773 --> 01:46:17,713
Strategic Bitcoin Reserve given your insight into Africa? Yeah, so I think there's maybe two things

992
01:46:17,713 --> 01:46:23,733
there. I mean, one would be the strategic Bitcoin reserve in the United States, and then that is a

993
01:46:23,733 --> 01:46:31,594
model for other nations to follow. And, you know, I think that, you know, among other things

994
01:46:31,594 --> 01:46:39,713
that are very impactful, you know, the announcement, the recent announcements a couple weeks ago

995
01:46:39,713 --> 01:46:46,894
by the administration, strategic Bitcoin reserve stockpile, making sure, you know, that's clear

996
01:46:46,894 --> 01:46:56,333
that that's Bitcoin only, making it very clear from the most powerful leader of a country today

997
01:46:56,333 --> 01:47:01,713
that that has his and the United States stamp of approval,

998
01:47:02,233 --> 01:47:10,113
that now becomes something that is within Overton's window that just wasn't before that day.

999
01:47:11,434 --> 01:47:15,793
And I was actually just talking to Jake, co-founder of Bridger,

1000
01:47:15,793 --> 01:47:18,113
and wrote that piece for BPI.

1001
01:47:19,854 --> 01:47:27,773
We're kind of spitballing on ideas for sovereign wealth funds in Africa

1002
01:47:27,773 --> 01:47:37,873
that could put, you know, if they're energy rich and there's hydros,

1003
01:47:37,873 --> 01:47:45,914
For example, Ethiopia, there could be a combination of things that they could do,

1004
01:47:46,153 --> 01:47:52,634
but being able to generate Bitcoin from Bitcoin mining that comes from energy there in Ethiopia,

1005
01:47:52,974 --> 01:47:54,753
I think is very interesting.

1006
01:47:56,273 --> 01:48:02,434
But I think the BitBond idea, which is adjacent to the Bitcoin reserve,

1007
01:48:02,434 --> 01:48:16,434
and I believe actually is being considered as part of what can drive revenue into a sovereign wealth fund in the United States,

1008
01:48:16,673 --> 01:48:20,713
can be part of the strategic Bitcoin reserve in and of itself.

1009
01:48:20,713 --> 01:48:32,293
It's super interesting solving United States problems where we're getting to a point where interest rates,

1010
01:48:32,434 --> 01:48:35,773
on bonds, on the Treasury.

1011
01:48:36,193 --> 01:48:44,273
The yield is increasingly putting Scott Messon's policy into a tough spot

1012
01:48:44,273 --> 01:48:50,314
to be able to raise the capital that's needed to fund everything

1013
01:48:50,314 --> 01:48:51,833
that needs to be funded in the government,

1014
01:48:53,233 --> 01:48:58,713
but doing it without breaking the bond markets

1015
01:48:58,713 --> 01:49:06,494
and being able to do it without blowing out the yields on bonds.

1016
01:49:06,494 --> 01:49:13,494
And so the idea kind of extrapolated from that to the Africa context,

1017
01:49:14,213 --> 01:49:17,354
I think is really interesting where you could have a sovereign wealth fund

1018
01:49:17,354 --> 01:49:26,193
that could go out and raise dollars plus Bitcoin in a similar fashion

1019
01:49:26,193 --> 01:49:36,753
where you have 1% to 3% guaranteed interest return,

1020
01:49:37,273 --> 01:49:46,514
and then once you hit 4% to 6% because of the amount of Bitcoin that is part of that bond offering,

1021
01:49:46,514 --> 01:49:53,233
then that is something that is split between investors and the nation state.

1022
01:49:53,233 --> 01:50:06,533
and I think that that could be really powerful for countries that maybe do not have a sovereign wealth fund

1023
01:50:06,533 --> 01:50:11,573
or don't have really capital associated with a sovereign wealth fund.

1024
01:50:11,573 --> 01:50:15,713
So Ethiopia, for example, has land and energy, and that's about it.

1025
01:50:15,793 --> 01:50:21,113
They could leverage that into putting together a BitBond based off of their energy resources.

1026
01:50:21,113 --> 01:50:38,094
And then in the Africa context, I think the additional layer that you'd want to add into that is that this is being raised for infrastructure needs and industrial development needs of that country.

1027
01:50:38,094 --> 01:50:58,394
So it would be a bit bond tied to a project, whether that's another hydroelectric facility, whether that is getting transmission infrastructure onto power plants so that more people can have more power from those facilities.

1028
01:50:58,394 --> 01:51:03,454
there's a number of creative things that you could do with that

1029
01:51:03,454 --> 01:51:07,273
and you could do it independently of being reliant on

1030
01:51:07,273 --> 01:51:10,693
China, the IMF, World Bank, the United States

1031
01:51:10,693 --> 01:51:12,693
other lending institutions

1032
01:51:12,693 --> 01:51:17,954
so I think watch that space

1033
01:51:17,954 --> 01:51:21,273
because that's something that I know Bitcoin Policy Institute

1034
01:51:21,273 --> 01:51:23,753
is ideating on

1035
01:51:23,753 --> 01:51:26,713
and they're awesome

1036
01:51:26,713 --> 01:51:29,873
So I've gotten to know a number of those guys fairly well.

1037
01:51:30,573 --> 01:51:35,594
Matt Pines literally wrote the strategy for the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve that was delivered to Besant.

1038
01:51:37,134 --> 01:51:46,793
And I'm sure behind the scenes is doing other interesting things in support of how the government is trying to be as thoughtful as possible

1039
01:51:46,793 --> 01:51:55,894
between executive orders and legislative solutions to really enshrine the role that Bitcoin is going to play.

1040
01:51:56,713 --> 01:51:58,533
the reshaping of the monetary order.

1041
01:51:59,173 --> 01:52:06,414
But they, I know, are also very interested in kind of taking those fundamental ideas

1042
01:52:06,414 --> 01:52:11,173
and putting them on the desk of other leaders around the world.

1043
01:52:11,173 --> 01:52:20,094
A good friend of mine, Ken Egan, former career CIA officer, did amazing things all over the world

1044
01:52:20,094 --> 01:52:26,113
and is one of the few former guys like us that's an out-and-proud Bitcoiner

1045
01:52:26,113 --> 01:52:30,753
and found his dream job as head of government relations at BPI.

1046
01:52:30,974 --> 01:52:34,833
I was just talking to him earlier, it was either today or yesterday,

1047
01:52:34,833 --> 01:52:48,814
about how to think about this and how BPI and others can be supportive of getting blueprints on the desk of presidents

1048
01:52:48,814 --> 01:52:51,594
and their advisors in Africa and other places.

1049
01:52:52,033 --> 01:52:52,793
That is excellent.

1050
01:52:53,634 --> 01:52:55,394
So I'm cognizant of your time here, Ben.

1051
01:52:55,394 --> 01:52:58,733
And we had set this for a two-hour convo, and we're pulling up on that.

1052
01:52:58,873 --> 01:53:02,833
So I suppose you've got stuff you need to do, and we don't want to monopolize all your time.

1053
01:53:02,914 --> 01:53:04,613
I'm very grateful for coming in here.

1054
01:53:05,033 --> 01:53:08,434
I wonder if there's anything that you wanted to leave us with.

1055
01:53:10,054 --> 01:53:14,213
I don't think you're on social media, but if you are, if you want to drop that and just let us know.

1056
01:53:14,733 --> 01:53:16,673
You have such a great perspective on this.

1057
01:53:16,673 --> 01:53:22,713
I wish there were more conversations out there that people could listen to you talk about Tocqueville and draw these connections.

1058
01:53:22,713 --> 01:53:26,394
Is there anything, do you have any connection, social media, anything like that?

1059
01:53:28,814 --> 01:53:36,833
Yeah, so, yeah, I'm on LinkedIn, which is, you know, social media nerds or professional nerds.

1060
01:53:37,533 --> 01:53:44,213
And, yeah, and that's, you know, that's where you can find me, you know,

1061
01:53:44,253 --> 01:53:45,833
Ben Kincaid, Raylement Technologies.

1062
01:53:46,833 --> 01:53:51,394
And, yeah, on that, I've stayed away from Twitter.

1063
01:53:51,394 --> 01:53:55,854
not because of anything that was government related before

1064
01:53:55,854 --> 01:53:59,213
but just because I know myself

1065
01:53:59,213 --> 01:54:02,414
and I'll just doom scroll six hours a day.

1066
01:54:03,573 --> 01:54:07,554
And then on Facebook, similar, I kind of rage quit Facebook

1067
01:54:07,554 --> 01:54:10,793
a couple years ago because it was doing the same thing

1068
01:54:10,793 --> 01:54:14,533
and I realized that most of my quote unquote friends

1069
01:54:14,533 --> 01:54:17,533
weren't actually close family and friends

1070
01:54:17,533 --> 01:54:21,773
and so why am I allowing this to take up so much space in my life?

1071
01:54:23,293 --> 01:54:25,094
And I think TOEFL is a bottom for that.

1072
01:54:25,094 --> 01:54:33,113
But in any case, I'm much more comfortable generally.

1073
01:54:33,394 --> 01:54:34,573
I mean, I love these conversations.

1074
01:54:35,434 --> 01:54:38,134
I go occasionally on podcasts when people invite me,

1075
01:54:38,533 --> 01:54:40,173
but it's not something I really seek out.

1076
01:54:41,494 --> 01:54:45,573
But I do love having these conversations.

1077
01:54:45,573 --> 01:54:50,213
I love having small group discussions on this.

1078
01:54:50,314 --> 01:55:01,573
I hope we have more of this offline and doing kind of what I can behind the scenes with writing a chapter of the book

1079
01:55:01,573 --> 01:55:10,613
and working with BPI and other friends that are still in government or are influential in D.C., moving back to D.C.

1080
01:55:10,833 --> 01:55:13,573
I'm really excited to be part of that community.

1081
01:55:13,573 --> 01:55:19,573
of that community. I know PubKey is opening a bar down in D.C. in partnership with BPI,

1082
01:55:19,994 --> 01:55:27,394
and there's just going to be a really, I think, cool Bitcoin culture there in D.C.,

1083
01:55:27,394 --> 01:55:35,314
so being a part of that and trying to be a participating democratic citizen in my own

1084
01:55:35,314 --> 01:55:41,434
country for the first time in 20 years, because I just really haven't done that.

1085
01:55:41,434 --> 01:55:45,673
So I'll be able to do that for the next three years, which is exciting.

1086
01:55:46,273 --> 01:55:49,753
The other thing, and then little side projects that are adjacent.

1087
01:55:49,974 --> 01:55:57,134
I've gotten to know and I work with the Simple Proof guys that, I don't know if you all know them,

1088
01:55:57,293 --> 01:56:06,693
but they are using Bitcoin timestamps to enhance election integrity.

1089
01:56:06,693 --> 01:56:26,814
So essentially insurance policies stamped on the Bitcoin blockchain to be able to very easily validate the results from polling and put it on the immutable blockchain.

1090
01:56:26,814 --> 01:56:32,134
so that you can be able to look at what came out of polls in the count

1091
01:56:32,134 --> 01:56:38,814
and be able to say six hours later or two weeks later that there were zero modifications to this.

1092
01:56:39,554 --> 01:56:43,934
And they saved the presidential election in Guatemala,

1093
01:56:43,934 --> 01:56:49,373
did a great documentary on that from being a victim of fraud,

1094
01:56:49,974 --> 01:56:53,814
worked with the county in the recent presidential election,

1095
01:56:53,814 --> 01:56:59,934
and are also doing this to verify and authenticate documents in the digital realm.

1096
01:57:00,653 --> 01:57:04,474
I'm just really excited about their mission and what they can do.

1097
01:57:05,073 --> 01:57:14,094
One of the things that we didn't get into, what I think is going to be increasingly a use case for Bitcoin

1098
01:57:14,094 --> 01:57:19,494
and the Bitcoin blockchain is how the immutability of the Bitcoin blockchain

1099
01:57:19,494 --> 01:57:27,233
can be a bulwark against runaway technology and AI and grift

1100
01:57:27,233 --> 01:57:40,653
and everything that can be so easily manipulated through that now universally accessible suite of technology

1101
01:57:40,653 --> 01:57:43,914
that can very quickly go in a bad direction.

1102
01:57:43,914 --> 01:57:55,994
So I see Bitcoin and Bitcoin blockchain being a defense, in a sense, from runaway tech, runaway AI.

1103
01:57:56,273 --> 01:58:00,134
And I think there's a lot more to be discussed there.

1104
01:58:00,354 --> 01:58:05,954
I watched a little bit of y'all's conversation around Jason Lowry and what he did.

1105
01:58:08,753 --> 01:58:12,634
I've spent a lot of time looking at that work and thinking about it.

1106
01:58:12,634 --> 01:58:41,454
I think a lot of that still needs to be kind of proved out, and I'm not 100% there on all of the thesis, but it's in that same category of what I think we're going to rely on, the immutable blockchain, in that power projection context to defend against as the physical realm is tied to or also manifested in the digital realm.

1107
01:58:42,634 --> 01:58:46,134
So anyway, awesome to talk to you guys.

1108
01:58:46,253 --> 01:58:49,134
I hope we can talk more offline.

1109
01:58:49,134 --> 01:58:55,693
And I want to help you guys with y'all's projects and want you all to be successful.

1110
01:58:55,994 --> 01:58:59,814
So please let me know how I can support.

1111
01:59:00,314 --> 01:59:01,014
That's awesome.

1112
01:59:01,113 --> 01:59:01,934
Thank you so much.

1113
01:59:02,213 --> 01:59:03,613
This has been an excellent conversation.

1114
01:59:03,854 --> 01:59:04,233
Absolutely.

1115
01:59:04,414 --> 01:59:06,474
I do hope we will continue this conversation.

1116
01:59:06,673 --> 01:59:09,193
You left too many interesting threads right there at the end.

1117
01:59:09,193 --> 01:59:14,414
And that was, and I will say too, inspiring what can happen when you're not on Twitter.

1118
01:59:14,554 --> 01:59:17,094
So that's a call to action to everybody out there.

1119
01:59:17,354 --> 01:59:19,914
Instead of doom scrolling, you could be doing all these other things.

1120
01:59:22,054 --> 01:59:23,934
Ben, you're a fantastic dude.

1121
01:59:24,073 --> 01:59:25,213
You're a deep thinker.

1122
01:59:25,873 --> 01:59:27,414
Your heart's in the right place.

1123
01:59:27,594 --> 01:59:36,054
I am happy to have helped to fund your career as a diplomat in Africa.

1124
01:59:36,054 --> 01:59:42,474
I'm sure that you did wonderful things for us that we probably won't ever be able to know about in some ways.

1125
01:59:42,833 --> 01:59:45,253
And so thank you so much for the service.

1126
01:59:45,253 --> 01:59:52,373
We really appreciate what you've done and are continuing to do in advancing Bitcoin,

1127
01:59:52,753 --> 01:59:58,094
not just by talking about it, but by actually being boots on the ground, especially in Africa,

1128
01:59:58,373 --> 02:00:05,613
which is the place that, as we said, this may be the kind of where the war is fought between freedom and autocracy.

1129
02:00:06,054 --> 02:00:09,873
and I think something very important is coming out of it.

1130
02:00:10,014 --> 02:00:13,213
So thank you for contributing your efforts to that,

1131
02:00:13,514 --> 02:00:15,494
and we really appreciate it, man.

1132
02:00:15,634 --> 02:00:18,414
Thank you so much, and have a wonderful evening.

1133
02:00:18,554 --> 02:00:20,233
I see it's starting to get dark behind that.

1134
02:00:21,434 --> 02:00:22,954
Thanks, Lucas. Thanks, Grant.

1135
02:00:23,514 --> 02:00:25,594
It's great to meet you guys. Take care.

1136
02:00:25,814 --> 02:00:26,634
All right. See you.

1137
02:00:27,173 --> 02:00:27,954
All right. Bye-bye.

1138
02:00:30,293 --> 02:00:31,753
Hey, thanks for watching.

1139
02:00:31,753 --> 02:00:34,914
If you like what you listen to, that's my brother.

1140
02:00:35,153 --> 02:00:35,753
That's Christopher.

1141
02:00:36,054 --> 02:00:46,773
Please subscribe. It gets me one step closer to owning a cave, and that way I'll never have to mow a lawn or replace roof shingles ever again, which would be wonderful. Thanks.