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If I could hope for but one thing for you, so you'd be curious in all that you do.

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Cause love like a flower just wants to grow.

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Oh, and knowledge like your heart just wants to be known.

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If you like, please subscribe. This is Bitcoin Study Sessions.

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who is like a former career diplomat of 15 years, been to Africa, other places.

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Now he's a CEO of some like a mineral processing company as well as some Bitcoin mining stuff.

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I'm really excited to rediscuss this one with Lucas here.

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It's kind of some of the things that it say are some of the same type of things that are really gelled my conviction in Bitcoin.

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So we're going to get to that, I hope.

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But I'll do what we usually do and give a quick summary of this essay and then Lucas and I will discuss it.

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The essay, though, by the way, is from this anthology, National Security in the Digital Age, Bitcoin as a Tool for Modern Statecraft, a Bitcoin Today Coalition publication.

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Incredibly excellent. The quality of these essays, non-perreal.

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They are academic in substance without being overly academic in style. Very good.

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So a short summary. This essay kind of begins with the assertion that African independence in politics, economics and finance is in U.S. interest, which is interesting given kind of the deep history of top down colonial influence and control of Africa, that now African independence and sovereignty of African nation states can stand as a bulwark.

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a bulwark against what? Why is this in U.S. interest now? It can be a defense against

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Chinese influence and control through their Belt and Road Investment Initiative, where China makes

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loans of a somewhat predatory nature, builds infrastructure in developing countries as a way

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to gain influence and kind of control elites and the ruling class in this country. African

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independence and sovereignty can also act as a bulwark against Russian control and influence.

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In Africa specifically, the Wagner private military group, which is tied to the Russian government, is kind of preying on African instability to increase Russian control.

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The Wagner group, for example, stepped in and offered security services in the Central African Republic in exchange for mineral resources.

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And when they did that, they also installed a Russian citizen as the head of national security.

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And Wagner group is now kind of running the same plan at Mali.

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They jump in where there's regional instability, offer their security services and really get their tentacles in deep.

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So in the face of all this, the U.S. and the West kind of generally, we lack the heart to put troops on the ground and for military intervention and for good reason.

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Right. Like that's a colonial legacy that I think we're finally getting passed.

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So how do we now then how does the U.S., the West confront encroaching Chinese and Russian influence and control in Africa?

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How do we fight totalitarianism at scale in Africa, as the author Kincaid puts it?

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So just even further frame this question, because it's really interesting.

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Last week or last-ish week, we read a Matthew Pines essay from the same anthology, Great Power Network Competition in Bitcoin.

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And Pines frames this whole struggle against China and Russia as kind of Cold War 2.0.

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He said, Cold War 2.0 will be fought in the global south as emerging markets and developing countries choose which model of techno-monetary governance they want to subscribe to.

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China's aggressive sales model is likely to attract many authoritarian and authoritarian-inclined customers.

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So, Kincaid is now, in this essay, developing this thesis in the context of Africa.

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How do we fight Cold War 2.0 against Chinese authoritarian and authoritarian inclined influence?

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So how do we do that? Bitcoin is a prime example of this.

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Kincaid is going to argue that it strengthens sovereignty and freedom from the ground up, which is a particular strength in Africa.

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How can Bitcoin strengthen sovereignty and freedom of nation states in Africa?

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So before we kind of get into the idealistic abstraction of what Bitcoin can do for sovereignty and freedom, Kincaid looks at what it's already doing very materially in Africa.

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So in Africa, Bitcoin is banking the unbanked. The vast majority of Africans are unbanked. But Bitcoin, though, does not require an intermediary. You do not have to wait for institutions and infrastructure to develop in your local community before you can open a bank account.

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You can get a wallet and begin to purchase Bitcoin and use Bitcoin.

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You can connect yourself to a global financial infrastructure with a cell phone and internet connection.

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That Bitcoin offering connection to a global financial infrastructure also allows easy and fast remittances to Africa, which are another important thing that Bitcoin is doing for Africa.

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because many Africans abroad work abroad in stronger economies and then send value back to their families in their home countries.

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So those are two things, banking the unbanked remittances.

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A third very important use case of Bitcoin right now in Africa is monetizing stranded energy.

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Africa is replete with solar, wind and hydro energy.

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But the problem is these are often in remote locations, away from power grids and away from paying customers.

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As we've discussed in past episodes, Bitcoin kind of helps monetize stranded energy. It allows for it because Bitcoin miners, location agnostic, you can drop them in a remote location next to the power source, wherever it is, away from civilization.

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And as long as you have a low bandwidth internet connection from a satellite or whatever, you can begin harnessing that energy to do Bitcoin mining, which can then bootstrap the local energy grid, build it out, attract more people to live close to those new jobs provided by Bitcoin and begin to really monetize stranded renewable energies.

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He mentioned a couple of companies. Gridless is one that is doing this. And he notes that these types of companies are monetizing stranded energy to help electrify the continent. There are 600 million Africans who currently live without electricity.

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I watched a separate documentary that really drove home why this is incredibly important.

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Three million people around the world die every year from inhaling particulate matter for diseases associated with burning biomass fuels and inhaling particulate matter.

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When you cook on a fire, around a fire, and live next to that fire, it's very unhealthy.

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Three million die from that.

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That's more than malaria and AIDS combined.

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Electricity reduces the need for burning biomass fuels,

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monetizing stranded energy allows for electrification.

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It saves lives in Africa.

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Another use case that Kincaid points out is it saves natural resources.

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It has helped save Vironga National Park,

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which is Africa's oldest protected space.

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It's located in the Dmitry Republic of Congo.

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The area itself suffers from kind of political instability.

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It's under threat from poachers and kind of armed fighters.

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But they've begun Bitcoin mining in the park, which enabled them to monetize that remote hydropower located there in a very renewable, environment-friendly way.

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And that's led to the creation of 10,000 jobs that help protect the park.

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So Bitcoin is helping very materially in Africa right now.

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It's attaching Africans to a global digital financial network that banks the unbank and helps ease remittances, facilitate them.

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It's also monetizing shredded energy to bootstrap grids, save national parks and save lives.

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This is all excellent.

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But back to the original question, how does this strengthen sovereignty and freedom in Africa from the ground up in support of U.S. national interest and against CCP, the Chinese Communist Party control?

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So first, let's take a look at the very particular nature of sovereignty in Africa.

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This is one of the most interesting parts, I think, of Kincaid's perspective on this.

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And I think he gets that having been in Africa for 15 years or for some of those 15 years as a diplomat.

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So first, the history of sovereignty in Africa and sovereignty, you know, big, airy, abstract word.

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It means self-control, self-determination of a people, of a group and a country.

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So sovereignty in Africa historically has been compromised for decades, perhaps centuries by colonialism.

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which de-emphasized African sovereignty, kind of made African states into vassal states for foreign extraction of resources.

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There were, after World War II, there were kind of global independence movements,

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but the end of World War II then coincides with the beginnings of the Cold War.

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And the Cold War then gives France kind of the pretext to step in, exert colonial control in Africa,

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And with the United States, okay with this because it helps prevent these states from falling under the Soviet sphere of influence.

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After the Cold War, then the Soviet Union falls.

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But a new form of colonialism then begins to develop, a sort of globalist form where supranational institutions step in to manage the global south.

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So multinational corporations in cahoots with governments begin to mix politics with commerce, work closely with governments to extract resources from them in Africa.

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We've talked in the past about how the IMF and World Bank extend predatory developmental lending that gets countries caught in the debt cycle.

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And in this way, a form of like neocolonialism from the West continues to occur after the end of the Cold War.

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Now we have Cold War 2.0 and we see China and Russia seeking influence and control with their own types of debt trap diplomacy, Belt and Road initiative, even as the U.S.'s global power is now kind of appearing to wane.

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so Kincade states the current problem this way the most critical takeaway with the drawdown of

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French influence in their old colonial sphere Russia and China saw a geopolitical opportunity

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to step into the gap with their particular and malign form of neocolonialism the most critical

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question to come from this are how does America shore up democracy and security in these vulnerable

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corners of the world without spilling blood and treasure? And how do African nations, in fact,

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all nations, break the cycle of dependency on stronger external powers? So if neocolonialism

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in Cold War 2.0 is the threat, the answer in Kincaid's estimation is not top-down counter-colonialism

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by the West, not more troops on the ground, not more, you know, extension of aid and debt-trap

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diplomacy, but bottom up sovereignty. So despite the waves of constant top down colonialism and

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foreign interference on African nations from above, Africa has, and this is the most interesting part

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of the article, kind of the sovereignty superpower, and the sovereignty super weapon to the superpower

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is that there's a strong fabric for sovereignty at the bottom below the state in Africa, and the

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super weapon we're going to see is Bitcoin. So let's take a look at that superpower,

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the strong fabric of bottom-up sovereignty in Africa. So that's the kind of ethos of the

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African village of tight-knit families and villages and tribes, which are very important

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in Africa, Kincaid says. These are face-to-face communities where there are strong traditions,

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despite globalizing forces that tend to homogenize everybody into the same gray mass of humanity.

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it's very vibrant. This localized, strong tradition in Africa is still very vibrant.

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It's also a decentralized population that is kind of diffusely spread, but growing rapidly.

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It's a strong localism where people are able to govern themselves through communally enforced

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reciprocal obligations. So why is this strong fabric of sovereignty at this very local level

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a form of superpowers, I've kind of framed it. It helps Africa to escape a dilemma of sovereignty,

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where sovereignty around the world is currently being challenged from both the top and the bottom.

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So to quote Kincaid again, in 2023, supra, top-down alternatives to sovereignty,

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are represented primarily through multinational corporations and international governmental

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institutions which transcend the state. So that's the threat from above that includes the

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neocolonialism of China and Russia and also U.S. and IMF attempts to control and extract as well.

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That's the threat from above sovereignty. To quote Kincaid again, today's sub-state alternative,

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the bottom-up threat to sovereignty, finds expression through tech-enabled isolation

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and avoidance of face-to-face relations in a community context, always essential for consensus

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building and for life to go well, especially in the context of liberal democracy. So that's the

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bottom-up threat where kind of at the local level, bullying alone, people are not congregating

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together, people are not doing things that make for strong and vibrant localism in communities

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around the world. People are becoming isolated through tech-enabled isolation of logging on the

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internet instead of going and talking to your neighbors. So Africa, though, has still a strong

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and vibrant localism. They can resist that threat from below of tech-enabled isolation to their

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sovereignty. So then if it can resist the threat from above, the neocolonialism already being

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resistant to the threat from below, then that's kind of its superweapon in a way that its sovereignty

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can be bootstrapped through the use of Africa's superweapon, which is Bitcoin. That can help them

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avoid the threat from above of neocolonialism and globalism. So how can it do that? First,

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Bitcoin can enable sovereignty at the level of the nation state, because it monetizes energy

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development and energy is what makes a country independent. So when you begin to monetize all

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this stranded energy and Africa becomes known for producing vast amounts of energy, that's going to

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help with local nation state sovereignty, give them more bargaining power and leverage internationally.

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Also, it can help them escape endlessly refinanced debt cycles, both to the IMF and to China,

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because, of course, if you can begin to mine Bitcoin through utilizing stranded energy,

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you can begin to hold that Bitcoin.

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And if Bitcoin appreciates faster than fiat currency, you can pay your way out of debt traps.

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Second, Bitcoin can help with sovereignty, empower sovereignty by increasing local prosperity. And this empowers sovereignty because, as Kincaid describes it, desperation drives radicalism.

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Bitcoin can penetrate into ungoverned spaces, kind of brings its own rule of law with it.

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Its code and its proof of work security exists anywhere Bitcoin is, and anyone can opt into it wherever they have internet.

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So Bitcoin can penetrate into ungoverned spaces, places where people usually are subject to being recruited maybe by an armed group or a terrorist group.

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But the thought is maybe once they're beginning to earn and save in Bitcoin, they can begin to feel hope, avoid economic despair, and avoid falling into these extremist groups.

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So third, and most significantly for U.S. interests, Bitcoin empowers sovereignty because it allows a country to opt out of China's offering of a techno-authoritarian stack.

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Africa is looking for digital cross-border payment solutions all countries are China is

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helping them to do this currently by supplying them with vast numbers of smartphones that are

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compatible with Chinese central bank digital currency technology to try to advance the spread

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of that CBDC technology which is a form of financial surveillance as we've talked about

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in past conversations. China is also helping to build out a centralized infrastructure.

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They've done 70% of the 4G network in Africa and making other large investments in digital

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infrastructure that allows them to capture African elites and the ruling class. When they invest all

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this money, there's corruption. There's just becoming hooked on foreign money by the ruling

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class. So right now, Africa is looking for digital cross-border payment solutions. China's offering

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all this tech and infrastructure. But Bitcoin would allow Africa to simply, an African state,

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to rug pull all of China's centralized offerings and investments because anybody can opt into it.

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It's a decentralized open source permissionless protocol, which can provide a digital infrastructure

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for cross-border payments without needing to use China's centralized CBDC option.

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Bitcoin is being organically adopted in Africa.

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People are voluntarily choosing to use it at the individual level, whereas the people

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are rejecting central bank digital currency, CBDC.

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As an example, the e-Naira in Nigeria was kind of roundly rejected by the populace, even

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as cryptocurrency usage continues to grow rapidly.

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Bitcoin being the principal crypto among those, according to Kincaid.

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So Bitcoin protects property rights, evades top-down and post-capital controls, and prevents debanking of dissidents.

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These are all freedom-enhancing properties that Bitcoin has.

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And so by organically adopting Bitcoin, the African people are acting in a bottom-up way to speak to the ruling class about the vision of the future they want.

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They want a liberal, free and sovereign future, and they do not want an illiberal, censored and controlled future with sovereignty compromised by the CCP.

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So those are ways in which Bitcoin can be a super weapon to empower sovereignty in Africa.

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Regarding U.S. national interests, if Africa opts for Bitcoin, Kincaid emphasizes how much of a threat and a blow this would be to China.

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So Bitcoin kind of becoming a global reserve asset would, Kincaid says, take China by surprise.

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China has been repossessioning for an end of the dollar system by amassing gold.

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The CCP, Kincaid thinks, will avoid Bitcoin because of its freedom enhancing properties,

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if it's their inability to control or manipulate it,

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And that it also simply the spread of Bitcoin is going to enable or kind of incline previously authoritarian inclined countries to opt out of their of the China CBDC and opt for Bitcoin.

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To quote Kincaid, it should be of no surprise that the CCP will not tolerate an open, free, decentralized and censorship resistant financial asset in mainland China.

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It is antithetical to the CCP ideology that Bitcoin is an uncontrollable financial rail that facilitates capital flight.

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So Africa adopting Bitcoin would, Kinkaid thinks, indeed threaten the CCP beyond just kind of a blow in Cold War 2.0 where they lose influence in Africa.

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Kinkaid notes that Chinese leaders have this is an interesting ideological thing I hadn heard before but Chinese leaders have been infatuated with the writings of Alexis de Tocqueville a French aristocrat and a commentator on early U democracy

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So here's a quote from Tocqueville that has been influential to Chinese elites.

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quote it is almost never when a state of things is the most detestable that it is smashed but when

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beginning to improve it permits men to breathe to reflect to communicate their thoughts with each

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other and to gauge by what they already have the extent of their rights and their grievances so

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basically based on toqueville and writings like these it appears that china is afraid that

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improvements that allow people to breathe and reflect and to be prosperous improvements and

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prosperity and liberty also lead people to begin to question the repressive governments over them

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and the repression they're subject to. Kincaid notes that Bitcoin presents this problem all in

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one. It increases prosperity and freedom. And he notes that Chinese Bitcoiners, people who are,

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you know, once you get fall down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, you begin to take in that culture

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of freedom. I can imagine a Chinese citizen beginning to watch Breedlove, Freedom Maximalist,

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to begin to hear a lot of Glenn Alden talking about the nature of the financial oppression

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of the financial system.

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So there are some further observations that Kincaid makes that I want to discuss, but

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I'm going to save those for discussion and summarize and end this way.

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So overall, a big takeaway from this essay is that the U.S. can nudge countries in the

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direction of a free liberal sovereign future instead of a Chinese and Russian neocolonialist

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future by encouraging adoption of Bitcoin. We don't need millions of dollars of USAID,

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and we don't need foreign intervention. We don't have to outspend China or support proxy wars

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against Russia to do this. Instead, the premise is simply that open systems just work better.

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That is the underlying premise of the West, of the free market system.

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Open systems just work better. And if we encourage their adoption organically,

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it's a win for the US. So we pull the rug under totalitarian states simply by encouraging

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organic adoption of Bitcoin, which leads, for example, China to hold bags of their own CBDC

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and stockpiles of yellow rocks. And this is a further point. I'll end with this because this is,

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again, kind of one of the things that really gelled my conviction of Bitcoin and made me

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capable of holding long term is you can do this yourself too. You can begin to hold Bitcoin,

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use Bitcoin, talk about Bitcoin. That encourages the organic adoption and encouraging that organic

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adoption again makes an open system stronger, which is always a blow against closed systems

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that want to encourage people to enter into their cloistered and closed realm.

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so lucas i i wrote down a lot of questions from this article there were a lot of really interesting

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points to to talk about but i kind of overall like this is the reason i wanted to read this

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this is really our first incursion into africa like and i'm just i'll just go

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state right out front i'm very ignorant of of the african continent and so i was curious

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i mean i i don't i know you've been to morocco maybe you have more familiarity but

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But is there some like insider fact or realization that you had either about Bitcoin in the African context or Africa in the context of Bitcoin that came out to you that was like, oh, that's interesting.

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Or maybe even just to double down on something that I noted in the summary about Africa and Bitcoin or Bitcoin in Africa.

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i think so being in morocco so i was in morocco two years ago and i i'm sorry i just want to

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interrupt you already but i frame the question this way i just want to note that you can answer

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that way i just want to note that um i think a lot of this article is primed towards sub-saharan

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africa right um but it's still relevant what you're going to say about morocco so continue

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Yeah, I mean, just because that's my only frame of reference on it.

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So I was there for about a month, about two years ago.

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And even at that time, I saw a lot of Bitcoin ATMs.

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And I mean, like, noticeably a lot.

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There were quite a few.

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One of the things that I think was very consistent, I think, yeah.

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one of the things that would be very consistent that you could apply from Morocco to the rest of Africa

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is simply the lack of infrastructure, lack of transmission lines,

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lack of development of energy resources.

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And that really does open the door.

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that opens the door for this Chinese Belt and Road initiative,

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which, as I told you when I was reading this,

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is just a, this is the Bretton Woods playbook

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just being run by somebody else.

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And now we're, we are observing this

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and realizing that we don't really like that idea.

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That's not a, that's not a good thing.

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And not only is it the Bretton Woods playbook.

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Can you describe what the Bretton Woods playbook is?

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Yeah. So what China is doing, what the United States did after World War II was made basically an agreement with the majority of the world.

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We will protect the trade routes. We will keep the peace. We will supply the dominant currency, the dollar.

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In exchange for that, you give us your gold, we'll keep it safe, we'll house the gold,

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and then we will issue dollars on top of that that will be good as gold,

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which rapidly become worth less than the paper they're printed on,

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but they start out with the sales pitch of good as gold.

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so it's trying to bring together all these countries to have a common currency

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the United States or whoever in this instance it's China

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they get the benefit of exporting inflation

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so they get to send their currency that they're printing more of for nothing

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to other countries in exchange for goods, services, and natural resources that have a real value.

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So they get all that for free.

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They use military might in order to enforce it.

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And the sales pitch, which is a really easy sales pitch, is to go to whatever party or person is in power

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and say, hey, we will give you the ability to stay in power if you partner with us.

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We will protect your incumbency.

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And that's rarely in the interest of the people.

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It's usually in the interest of the government.

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And so you have an autocratic society in China.

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They benefit.

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you have the autocratic government in Africa

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they benefit

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and then you have the people who suffer

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and the people suffer because they

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they export their raw natural resources

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or in this case what China is doing

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is China is investing in these countries

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to build out infrastructure

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so that it's not raw materials

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that you can actually have a finished product come out that then goes into their ecosystem.

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And so they capture the value add because they are operating these companies.

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These are the international companies.

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So an example would be Pepsi goes into a little African village and says,

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hey, we'll put a water pump in.

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You guys don't have a water well.

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We'll dig a well.

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And then you'll have access to constant water.

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You won't have to walk 10 miles to the river or wherever to get your water.

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You can just get it out of the ground.

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That's fine.

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In exchange, we're going to build a bottling factory here.

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And we're going to bottle this water.

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We'll pay your locals a couple cents to work there.

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And then we will take that water and we will go sell it in the U.S. market for $3 a bottle.

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This is a real, by the way, that's a real example.

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In that example that I'm noting, by the way, the village ended up getting one water hydrant that ran sometimes, not often.

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But the bottling factory that filled the water bottles was constantly running.

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there's too many temptations that exist

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for this to operate

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in the entrance of the citizens.

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And so they have an incentive to look for

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something different.

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The time that I spent in South America

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my host was I would say fairly in tune with what was going on and made the comment about how

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Chinese companies Chinese government um specifically Huawei Huawei was everywhere

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um had really begun a a full court press in order to become entrenched in those societies

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and I remember this was two years ago that I was there a little less than two years ago I went there

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right after Morocco and the comment at the time that he had because this was like the height of

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the middle of the Biden administration the woke psychoticness all of the all of the DEI

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insanity

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and

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during that time his comment was

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I really hope that America gets

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its shit together because

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we do not want what China has to

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offer and China has

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the best technology in the world

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when it comes to

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being able to suppress and

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oppress a population

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and that's

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like the cherry on top that they're adding

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to all these autocratic dictators

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that, you know, we'll bring in the cameras,

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we'll bring in the tracking technology,

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we'll also offer you our digital yuan

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so that you can track money,

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program the money to be used however you like.

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And it creates a...

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It's a very ugly look in the mirror, I think,

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for the United States to see

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what the Bretton Woods

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playbook on steroids

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looks like because the

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Chinese are doing it at

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a level that the United States

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never was able to.

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Yeah, we can't.

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All the tech and all the

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digital stuff. Right.

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Move that in.

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I think one of Kincaid's points is we can't

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outspend, out

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manufacture or

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out authoritarian China.

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Yeah. Yeah. And just we'd also if we wanted to, we couldn't at this point, maybe because of our lack of manufacturing capacity. But we also it's not what it's not our vision of the world. It's also like, the way we win, I think it's the most interesting aspect of this, the way we win is by. So what colonialism does is it saps sovereignty. And like, if you want to combat colonialism, and that now we we want to combat it, because it's coming from forces that we oppose the

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China and Russia, if you want to combat a force that saps, that enervates sovereignty,

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you need to find something that increases sovereignty, that empowers it. What does that

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free and open systems that anybody can join that you don't have to use Pine's frame? Like,

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in a global power competition, a global power network competition, it's a competition of like,

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00:34:15,389 --> 00:34:20,529
what network are you going to join? Are you going to join China's network that they preside over and

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have choke point surveillance control over what passes through the network? Or are you going to

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join a network that nobody controls that the United States happens to be on and using maybe

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other countries are also on and using, but you can jump on yourself in a permissionless sort of way

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and begin using an infrastructure that is not under surveillance control of another sovereign

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nation. Free systems are systems that are intensely appealing. As you know, your host saying,

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we don't want that illiberal authoritarian option. It's presenting itself to us as very persuasive

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because it comes on the back of all of this investment. But if there is another option,

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that's what people prefer. Kincaid says that Africans also at the citizen level,

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at the individual level, prefer the liberal option, don't want CBDCs imposed on them.

348
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And so how to give people the option, begin to organically grow and endorse the Bitcoin network.

349
00:35:18,069 --> 00:35:30,290
So people of their own volition, even if an authoritarian leader or authoritarian ruling class in a particular African nation is captured by Chinese investment under Chinese influence.

350
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If all the citizens begin to opt to use Bitcoin, that filters upward within a nation.

351
00:35:36,830 --> 00:35:43,069
Yeah, and it appears that they are opting to use it because it's better, right?

352
00:35:43,310 --> 00:35:49,830
There are vibrant Bitcoin communities.

353
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Bitcoin Icasi, which is sort of like another Bitcoin beach modeled after El Salvador.

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00:36:04,529 --> 00:36:04,869
Orzetta?

355
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so Bitcoin

356
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is in

357
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Mosel Bay

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South Africa

359
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and so they

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what they did

361
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was they went

362
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through a

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non-profit

364
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called the

365
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Surfer Kids

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Surfer Kids

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non-profit

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and they

369
00:36:20,790 --> 00:36:21,950
pay the

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coaches

371
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so there's

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like coaches

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that

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coach

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locals

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to teach

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them how to

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surf

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00:36:29,189 --> 00:36:30,089
that's part

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of the

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non-profit

382
00:36:30,749 --> 00:36:31,109
right

383
00:36:31,109 --> 00:36:31,510
you know

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do something

385
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active and

386
00:36:33,069 --> 00:36:33,290
fun

387
00:36:33,290 --> 00:36:34,330
they pay

388
00:36:34,330 --> 00:36:44,970
the coaches in Bitcoin and they also go into the community and they help the community

389
00:36:44,970 --> 00:36:50,109
businesses get onboarded so that they can accept Bitcoin.

390
00:36:50,810 --> 00:36:52,049
That was one of them.

391
00:36:52,189 --> 00:37:01,649
There's a couple other examples I found, but this is not a, oh, there's four or five examples.

392
00:37:01,649 --> 00:37:09,950
the author Ben Kincaid notes that he calls out specifically Strike, Jack Mallard's company,

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for the work that they're doing in Africa to onboard nations at a time or very large populations.

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00:37:20,129 --> 00:37:49,129
I think one of the things I really admire about Strike as a company is that they are clearly, like Jack Mallers is wildly a patriotic American, and he is doing everything he can, I think, to advance adoption in the United States, but he's not sacrificing world adoption for that.

395
00:37:49,129 --> 00:37:54,310
and is going out and demonstrating in other places,

396
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in South America, in Africa,

397
00:37:57,169 --> 00:38:00,909
the impact that Bitcoin can have.

398
00:38:01,109 --> 00:38:03,049
And that's the low-hanging fruit, right?

399
00:38:03,149 --> 00:38:07,269
These are the most heavily suffering populations

400
00:38:07,269 --> 00:38:11,529
that they don't have 12% inflation or 8% inflation.

401
00:38:11,709 --> 00:38:13,129
They have 80% inflation.

402
00:38:13,970 --> 00:38:16,549
And they have far worse.

403
00:38:16,549 --> 00:38:21,330
They have a greater incentive to change.

404
00:38:22,869 --> 00:38:31,869
I think it's cool how we frame this, how the author frames this.

405
00:38:32,990 --> 00:38:39,830
In the United States, Bitcoin is looked upon as a speculative store of value by many people.

406
00:38:40,249 --> 00:38:45,389
In Africa, it is actively being used as a currency.

407
00:38:45,389 --> 00:38:52,369
It is actively being used to transfer value specifically through the Lightning Network, through the Layer 2 protocol.

408
00:38:54,209 --> 00:38:57,509
And it's just this is the low-hanging fruit.

409
00:38:57,709 --> 00:39:00,709
This is the zone that is rife for that.

410
00:39:01,109 --> 00:39:13,290
The conditions that there are more than twice as many transactions under $1,000 that occur in Africa than any other continent.

411
00:39:13,290 --> 00:39:36,429
And so you've got these smaller transactions, more of them, and a monetary system throughout Africa, throughout all the different nations, that is ready to be upset because it has not served them well.

412
00:39:37,569 --> 00:39:38,169
Yeah.

413
00:39:38,169 --> 00:39:44,229
Yeah, so coming in there to do that is to build these.

414
00:39:46,089 --> 00:39:49,409
So, I mean, it's a twofold aspect, right?

415
00:39:49,470 --> 00:39:59,810
You've got companies coming in making mining deals in order to mine Bitcoin using stranded energy resources.

416
00:39:59,810 --> 00:40:05,509
So a stranded energy resource, a waterfall 100 miles away from a population.

417
00:40:05,509 --> 00:40:12,749
it's too expensive to build transmission lines in order to get the power to the population

418
00:40:12,749 --> 00:40:20,229
and so what can you do well previously there really was no option for stranded energy

419
00:40:20,229 --> 00:40:28,669
it was just there and people weren't using it but if you have bitcoin mining you take some

420
00:40:28,669 --> 00:40:35,850
asics miners out there and you get a starlink connection and now you can produce massive

421
00:40:35,850 --> 00:40:42,169
amounts of energy it was noted like virunga in uh in that national park in virunga they were

422
00:40:42,169 --> 00:40:49,229
when bitcoin was 44 000 a coin they were making about 150 000 a month so it's you would assume

423
00:40:49,229 --> 00:40:58,669
300 now um and and that goes to you know maintaining that you know maintaining that uh

424
00:40:58,669 --> 00:41:04,169
that national park that the world's second largest uh rainforest you know this is where

425
00:41:04,169 --> 00:41:10,389
this is where these endangered species uh the gorillas uh and and a number of other

426
00:41:10,389 --> 00:41:18,950
endangered species call home and so preserving that um preserving that territory

427
00:41:18,950 --> 00:41:24,909
instead of going to kind of like the nuclear option.

428
00:41:25,029 --> 00:41:28,389
The nuclear option is allowing like oil mining

429
00:41:28,389 --> 00:41:32,169
or oil drilling and natural resource mining

430
00:41:32,169 --> 00:41:45,859
that comes in and destroys the environment and the ecosystem So Bitcoin providing in a way to monetize that stranded

431
00:41:45,859 --> 00:41:53,779
energy that enriches these enriches these areas and then the the knock-on effect of that is

432
00:41:54,499 --> 00:42:03,059
you know you're going to go out there and monetize monetize the hydroelectric power

433
00:42:03,059 --> 00:42:05,319
of a waterfall or a dam

434
00:42:05,319 --> 00:42:06,419
or something like that.

435
00:42:07,359 --> 00:42:07,659
And

436
00:42:07,659 --> 00:42:10,899
you can then build

437
00:42:10,899 --> 00:42:12,919
out from there. You can build

438
00:42:12,919 --> 00:42:14,499
manufacturing out from there.

439
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:16,599
You can build community out from there.

440
00:42:17,099 --> 00:42:19,019
And Bitcoin can

441
00:42:19,019 --> 00:42:20,979
then switch to being the

442
00:42:20,979 --> 00:42:23,159
buyer of last

443
00:42:23,159 --> 00:42:24,319
resort so that

444
00:42:24,319 --> 00:42:27,139
you build a

445
00:42:27,139 --> 00:42:29,079
capacity

446
00:42:29,079 --> 00:42:30,999
for power and when

447
00:42:30,999 --> 00:42:32,979
that capacity is not being used

448
00:42:32,979 --> 00:42:38,299
you can still run it at capacity and Bitcoin miners will buy the excess power.

449
00:42:38,879 --> 00:42:38,979
Yeah.

450
00:42:39,059 --> 00:42:46,619
That allows you to be profitable, to always be basically checking the health of your system

451
00:42:46,619 --> 00:42:51,719
to make sure that it can operate at capacity so that when you need those excess power draws

452
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:53,079
that you can go after them.

453
00:42:54,039 --> 00:42:57,399
So, yeah, sort of the very rambling.

454
00:42:57,399 --> 00:43:14,799
Well, yeah, I mean, that's I love that because you're I mean, you emphasize the way Bitcoin is driving all of these very material improvements, very real, physical, tangible, real world improvements in Africa that are increasing the prosperity of Africans.

455
00:43:14,799 --> 00:43:37,059
And then Kincaid comes in and makes the additional observation that you then begin to have abstract improvements layered on top of that, improvements in sovereignty and freedom and the changing of ideals of people, really empowering nation states, which prevents them from falling under other spheres of influence and accepting colonialism that compromises sovereignty.

456
00:43:37,639 --> 00:43:39,339
So Bitcoin improves Africa.

457
00:43:39,339 --> 00:43:43,379
I wanted to ask you, how can Africa improve Bitcoin?

458
00:43:43,379 --> 00:43:47,859
How can Africa drive innovation on top of or with Bitcoin?

459
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,839
And I'll mention a specific one that Kincaid mentions in the article.

460
00:43:51,439 --> 00:44:01,639
And then I want to get your thoughts maybe on this protocol or just generally how the specific cultural conditions of a place can help drive innovative uses of Bitcoin.

461
00:44:02,219 --> 00:44:07,159
So in this respect, Kincaid mentions the Fediment protocol.

462
00:44:07,439 --> 00:44:09,659
The Fediment protocol, I'll give like a brief description.

463
00:44:09,659 --> 00:44:14,239
I don't know it super well, but my understanding is it's a lightning-based second layer on top of Bitcoin.

464
00:44:15,079 --> 00:44:23,979
So it's an open source protocol, and it allows for building essentially like a community bank on top of the Bitcoin base layer.

465
00:44:24,479 --> 00:44:26,679
And so I've heard it described in this way.

466
00:44:26,859 --> 00:44:28,659
So imagine you enter a theme park.

467
00:44:29,119 --> 00:44:34,939
You pay your dollars into a kiosk to get like tokens that are then used to pay for everything in that park.

468
00:44:35,779 --> 00:44:37,499
FedEmit kind of works that way.

469
00:44:37,499 --> 00:44:51,739
You pay your currency into it and you get back a Chomian eCash token, which you can then trade around in the economy that's connected to that specific Fediment community bank.

470
00:44:52,379 --> 00:45:01,319
Chomian eCash, that just means that you're getting a special token that's very, very privacy enabling in a way even beyond Bitcoin at the base layer.

471
00:45:01,319 --> 00:45:08,139
so in this scenario the protocol holds bitcoin based on what you paid into it to get those

472
00:45:08,139 --> 00:45:14,799
tokens that you can then use um and you can then redeem those tokens for what you paid into the

473
00:45:14,799 --> 00:45:22,379
protocol so the benefit is um it's like a community bank where it's an intermediate

474
00:45:22,379 --> 00:45:28,419
custodial solution between holding your own bitcoin or just having bitcoin on an exchange

475
00:45:28,419 --> 00:45:39,099
and the kinkade thinks that this is very resonant with africa because um it like fediment allows for

476
00:45:39,099 --> 00:45:44,419
community-based solution these the fediment protocol these community banks that are on top

477
00:45:44,419 --> 00:45:52,979
of the bitcoin protocol the bitcoin is secured by guardians people designated as guardians of it

478
00:45:52,979 --> 00:45:57,759
who have like a multi-sig arrangement so it takes for example like five of seven or whatever

479
00:45:57,759 --> 00:46:04,299
people signing on to it to be able to access that Bitcoin. So communities then trust based

480
00:46:04,299 --> 00:46:11,979
communities at the really local level can begin to have a community sort of bank on top of the

481
00:46:11,979 --> 00:46:19,099
Bitcoin protocol allows you know, the ability for daily and private transactions in a very quick and

482
00:46:19,099 --> 00:46:26,799
costless way. In a way, again, that people don't have to have a purely self custodial capacity.

483
00:46:26,799 --> 00:46:32,679
so that's the fediment protocol that's the way that the fediment protocol and kinkade's estimation

484
00:46:32,679 --> 00:46:39,879
is tied to the really like the sociology of africa in being very community and localized

485
00:46:39,879 --> 00:46:45,879
community driven at the very local level so i guess my question is like like can knowledge

486
00:46:45,879 --> 00:46:52,919
of the sociology of a particular area or society drive innovation and just like bitcoin interact

487
00:46:52,919 --> 00:46:59,139
with, will Bitcoin interact with different cultures differently as it's adapted to different

488
00:46:59,139 --> 00:47:03,419
uses based on how like specific cultures actually function?

489
00:47:04,759 --> 00:47:05,519
Yeah.

490
00:47:05,679 --> 00:47:07,419
Does that, if that makes sense is the question.

491
00:47:08,619 --> 00:47:08,839
Yeah.

492
00:47:09,159 --> 00:47:16,599
It makes me, it makes me first think about kind of the nature of how, how these societies

493
00:47:16,599 --> 00:47:17,879
operate.

494
00:47:17,879 --> 00:47:20,719
so

495
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:23,479
if you are

496
00:47:23,479 --> 00:47:25,879
a village that is

497
00:47:25,879 --> 00:47:27,659
located inside

498
00:47:27,659 --> 00:47:29,659
of a country that has a

499
00:47:29,659 --> 00:47:31,519
you know very chaotic

500
00:47:31,519 --> 00:47:32,139
government

501
00:47:32,139 --> 00:47:35,339
very inconsistent policies

502
00:47:35,339 --> 00:47:37,499
you know

503
00:47:37,499 --> 00:47:39,459
enforced kind of

504
00:47:39,459 --> 00:47:40,699
at will whenever

505
00:47:40,699 --> 00:47:42,919
you like

506
00:47:42,919 --> 00:47:44,959
whenever the people in power like

507
00:47:44,959 --> 00:47:47,619
not a strong

508
00:47:47,619 --> 00:47:51,759
rule of law, I guess, is probably a good way to frame it.

509
00:47:51,999 --> 00:47:55,259
So not a strong rule of law. The people

510
00:47:55,259 --> 00:47:59,479
develop their own transaction

511
00:47:59,479 --> 00:48:03,039
methods around that. They develop their own societies around that.

512
00:48:04,299 --> 00:48:07,739
They actually end up creating very high-trust

513
00:48:07,739 --> 00:48:11,599
societies. And this is what Kincaid

514
00:48:11,599 --> 00:48:15,019
is referencing here in Africa, is that the

515
00:48:15,019 --> 00:48:21,879
The village model, it is a high-trust society.

516
00:48:22,779 --> 00:48:26,479
These are people that we have the elders,

517
00:48:26,799 --> 00:48:33,839
and the elders genuinely look out for the good of the people below that they serve

518
00:48:33,839 --> 00:48:38,879
because they have extremely close ties to them.

519
00:48:39,119 --> 00:48:41,079
There's no separation.

520
00:48:41,079 --> 00:48:47,119
They're not in Washington, D.C., sitting in an office and flying back every once in a while to campaign.

521
00:48:47,479 --> 00:48:51,859
They are living right next to you, and you see them every day.

522
00:48:52,839 --> 00:49:06,159
And there's really no, there's much less danger, I guess, of being taken advantage of.

523
00:49:06,159 --> 00:49:24,559
And so the Fediment protocol, layer two protocol, you're right, that's a great way to put it, is basically we're going to put in our Bitcoin and we're going to appoint a number of stewards of that Bitcoin.

524
00:49:24,559 --> 00:49:32,459
those stewards will have to make decisions together if they want to do anything with that

525
00:49:32,459 --> 00:49:38,739
but when we put the bitcoin into our federated society into our fediment protocol

526
00:49:38,739 --> 00:49:48,679
then what we are able to do is we're able to gain back the sovereignty of the ability to transact

527
00:49:48,679 --> 00:49:52,679
individually without having a third party in between.

528
00:49:54,139 --> 00:50:01,159
And the third party, even if it's not going through any sort of middleman,

529
00:50:01,159 --> 00:50:06,599
the third party still exists if you're using government money,

530
00:50:06,799 --> 00:50:09,419
if you're using money that's controlled by somebody else.

531
00:50:09,619 --> 00:50:13,139
And so now you're using money that's not controlled by anyone,

532
00:50:13,619 --> 00:50:18,059
and you're able to transact in a private manner.

533
00:50:18,059 --> 00:50:27,659
I think this is a very important distinction about money that should be made, which is that money should be private by default and public by choice.

534
00:50:27,659 --> 00:50:32,379
there is no reason

535
00:50:32,379 --> 00:50:34,339
I don't think

536
00:50:34,339 --> 00:50:36,079
why anyone can justify

537
00:50:36,079 --> 00:50:36,999
that

538
00:50:36,999 --> 00:50:39,379
MasterCard

539
00:50:39,379 --> 00:50:41,439
or Visa

540
00:50:41,439 --> 00:50:43,239
or Bank of America

541
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:44,979
or J.P. Morgan

542
00:50:44,979 --> 00:50:46,459
needs to know

543
00:50:46,459 --> 00:50:48,639
that I'm buying eggs

544
00:50:48,639 --> 00:50:50,039
needs to know that I'm

545
00:50:50,039 --> 00:50:51,779
paying my gym membership

546
00:50:51,779 --> 00:50:53,939
needs to know that I'm going to a movie

547
00:50:53,939 --> 00:50:54,819
etc.

548
00:50:55,299 --> 00:50:56,559
and the argument is

549
00:50:56,559 --> 00:50:58,479
Well, yeah, of course they don't need to know that.

550
00:50:58,539 --> 00:51:03,619
What they need to know is when you're buying drugs, when you're hiring a hitman,

551
00:51:03,779 --> 00:51:09,079
when you're plotting to blow up a building, right, when you're doing stuff like that.

552
00:51:09,639 --> 00:51:16,359
And the counter to that is that it is a lot easier to track that stuff on-chain.

553
00:51:17,479 --> 00:51:20,299
So you actually want that stuff to occur there.

554
00:51:20,299 --> 00:51:28,459
Cash is the instrument of choice for fraud because it is very difficult to trace.

555
00:51:29,499 --> 00:51:34,299
You know, you think about, watch the movies, and how do they trace the cash?

556
00:51:34,299 --> 00:51:41,179
Well, they write down all the serial numbers, and then they go match the serial numbers when they get their hands on their cash.

557
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:46,399
And they say, oh, you have this cash, therefore you must have transacted with this person, and therefore you're all guilty.

558
00:51:46,819 --> 00:51:49,959
Or they mark it with some sort of nuclear isotope.

559
00:51:50,299 --> 00:51:55,079
and then they read it, like, oh, yeah, that's the cache that we marked.

560
00:51:56,099 --> 00:51:59,579
That means that you have to be in the physical proximity to do it,

561
00:51:59,639 --> 00:52:01,619
so it makes it very difficult to trace.

562
00:52:02,699 --> 00:52:07,679
Chain analysis, on-chain transactions, much easier to trace.

563
00:52:07,679 --> 00:52:12,319
And so it gives the power back to the people to be able to transact

564
00:52:12,319 --> 00:52:16,739
without having someone in between taking a cut.

565
00:52:16,739 --> 00:52:27,139
you can still tax people, but you can tax people in a way that is cooperative, that they actually

566
00:52:27,139 --> 00:52:33,879
agree to be taxed instead of just implicitly being taxed solely by using that money. And so

567
00:52:33,879 --> 00:52:43,299
this is not the tool of anarchy. This is not the tool of libertarianism gone rogue.

568
00:52:43,299 --> 00:52:45,739
this is a tool that

569
00:52:45,739 --> 00:52:49,939
really gets the best out of

570
00:52:49,939 --> 00:52:51,519
your local governance structure

571
00:52:51,519 --> 00:52:53,199
because it encourages honesty

572
00:52:53,199 --> 00:52:54,479
it rewards honesty

573
00:52:54,479 --> 00:52:56,499
it rewards fair play

574
00:52:56,499 --> 00:52:58,059
and treating people

575
00:52:58,059 --> 00:53:00,559
with dignity and respect

576
00:53:00,559 --> 00:53:02,119
and stuff like that

577
00:53:02,119 --> 00:53:03,839
so this

578
00:53:03,839 --> 00:53:05,879
fediment system

579
00:53:05,879 --> 00:53:08,319
fediment protocol

580
00:53:08,319 --> 00:53:10,179
I listened to

581
00:53:10,179 --> 00:53:12,019
a podcast by the guy who

582
00:53:12,019 --> 00:53:13,339
created it.

583
00:53:14,159 --> 00:53:16,559
So was it one by Obi Nwasu?

584
00:53:16,999 --> 00:53:17,319
Yes.

585
00:53:17,459 --> 00:53:25,879
So I think he is the co-founder of a company, Fedi, but not of the Fediment Protocol.

586
00:53:26,399 --> 00:53:30,279
So he works in a company that does stuff with Fediment.

587
00:53:30,339 --> 00:53:30,919
It's my understanding.

588
00:53:31,379 --> 00:53:36,319
Well, what I was going to say was that I listened to this podcast and I did not understand it

589
00:53:36,319 --> 00:53:37,099
very well coming up.

590
00:53:37,099 --> 00:53:37,319
Yeah.

591
00:53:37,319 --> 00:53:46,179
but I think you described it well, which is, it's basically, you go into the, you know,

592
00:53:46,419 --> 00:53:52,079
when you're in the amusement park, you use the amusement park's tickets in order to get on the rides and stuff,

593
00:53:52,079 --> 00:53:59,659
and so that's a way for communities to kind of keep their money in-house

594
00:53:59,659 --> 00:54:04,459
while still allowing it to be decentralized money.

595
00:54:05,639 --> 00:54:07,459
Definitely the best of both worlds.

596
00:54:07,599 --> 00:54:10,979
Yeah, and that analogy is actually one that Obi-Wan Walsh uses

597
00:54:10,979 --> 00:54:12,699
in one of his interviews too.

598
00:54:12,999 --> 00:54:16,659
So for me, I've always heard fediment thrown around

599
00:54:16,659 --> 00:54:20,039
but never really federated this and that,

600
00:54:20,139 --> 00:54:22,539
not really understood its functionality.

601
00:54:23,059 --> 00:54:26,839
But I dug into it a little bit and it's very fascinating.

602
00:54:26,839 --> 00:54:38,459
And it's just very fascinating to the way that it graphs onto this African notion of, you know, trust at the community level, because there is a third party in the FedEmit protocol.

603
00:54:38,459 --> 00:54:50,279
It's just that set of guardians that under a multi-signature arrangement signs off on the disposition of the Bitcoin that is held by that FedEmit, by that community bank, quote unquote.

604
00:54:50,919 --> 00:54:54,519
But the point is that, like, you have to trust somebody at the end of the day.

605
00:54:54,519 --> 00:54:56,519
Self-custodial, you have to trust yourself.

606
00:54:56,839 --> 00:55:20,479
And maybe in the Fediment protocol, you have to trust the guardians, the elders, as you noted, like the community. But there is trust in communities for a certain set of people. And this harnesses that kind of sociological fact that people do trust the elders, the guardians of the community. And if they're the ones that are holding the Bitcoin overall, it's not an offensive idea for the people who will transact with that Fediment.

607
00:55:20,479 --> 00:55:46,419
Another way to understand Fed and Mint kind of is break it down, federated and mint. So the protocol is minting, again, the money that you use, you pay in, they hold Bitcoin with what you pay in, and then it mints you a token. It's a federated mint, again, because it's all of these different people are running the Fed and Mint protocol, all these different mints that are secured by different groups of guardians that are holding their own amount of Bitcoin, etc.

608
00:55:46,419 --> 00:55:57,939
So a very fascinating protocol and very fascinating the way that interacts with, again, this African idea, the village ethos that Kincaid describes.

609
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:11,379
And I wanted to get your thoughts, too, on so that's something that maybe Bitcoin can learn or can drive innovation on Bitcoin, something specific to African like sociology, ethnography, whatever.

610
00:56:11,379 --> 00:56:20,679
So the other question I have, what can we learn from Africa as far as sovereignty at the local level?

611
00:56:20,679 --> 00:56:48,259
So Kincaid kind of notes that in the United States, we have a sort of waning localism, maybe even like waning faith and increased centralization. To quote Kincaid, Africa is not only the future of humanity due to demographics and that its population is growing so quickly, but it may unlock the key to a democratic revival of spirit desperately needed in the lands from which democracy originally sprang.

612
00:56:48,259 --> 00:56:51,259
so what do you think about that

613
00:56:51,259 --> 00:56:54,099
is there a lesson that we can

614
00:56:54,099 --> 00:56:55,699
or should learn from

615
00:56:55,699 --> 00:56:57,899
the sort of vibrant localism

616
00:56:57,899 --> 00:56:59,719
and strong community that

617
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:01,479
Kincaid describes as

618
00:57:01,479 --> 00:57:03,859
currently existing in Africa

619
00:57:03,859 --> 00:57:05,039
we in the United States

620
00:57:05,039 --> 00:57:07,859
I think the lesson

621
00:57:07,859 --> 00:57:08,559
is that

622
00:57:08,559 --> 00:57:10,559
the government

623
00:57:10,559 --> 00:57:13,019
when it becomes

624
00:57:13,019 --> 00:57:15,379
all consuming

625
00:57:15,379 --> 00:57:26,779
it starts to sap away and undermine the strength of the local community where people look towards

626
00:57:26,779 --> 00:57:34,919
Uncle Sam and they look towards the um you know Mother Russia uh Uncle Sam Mother Russia

627
00:57:34,919 --> 00:57:43,619
you know the homeland etc and you take a paternal view to your overlords kind of um where you

628
00:57:43,619 --> 00:57:55,959
people become so disenfranchised of their ability to pursue that which is beneficial to them

629
00:57:55,959 --> 00:58:02,339
that they stop trying and they start voting for the state to give it to them.

630
00:58:02,339 --> 00:58:08,079
And so you do see, the United States is a perfect example of this,

631
00:58:08,079 --> 00:58:17,499
how we've seen a drastic fall in civic organization participation over the last 70 years.

632
00:58:17,639 --> 00:58:20,559
I think the height of it was, you know, like right after World War II,

633
00:58:21,199 --> 00:58:28,479
where everybody was in the Boy Scouts or the Girl Scouts or your local 4-H club or, you know, something.

634
00:58:28,479 --> 00:58:32,259
But the community was very strong.

635
00:58:32,259 --> 00:58:41,239
and the community was strong because you needed the people in the community to survive you needed

636
00:58:41,239 --> 00:58:47,999
to get along you needed to participate in order to be a part of that economy

637
00:58:47,999 --> 00:58:55,839
as you have as we've advanced technology sufficiently and transportation and stuff so

638
00:58:55,839 --> 00:59:00,899
that you know if you want to you don't you don't ever have to leave your apartment you don't ever

639
00:59:00,899 --> 00:59:05,079
have to leave your house in order to get everything you need you can have your food delivered you can

640
00:59:05,079 --> 00:59:11,959
have your clothes sent out for um for washing like everything can be done um on your doorstep

641
00:59:11,959 --> 00:59:20,479
and so you have less requirement to interact in the community you go to africa and that's a totally

642
00:59:20,479 --> 00:59:26,959
different situation there's energy there's very one of the things i remember about like morocco

643
00:59:26,959 --> 00:59:33,959
was like there's no such thing as free water there's no water found ever um we went to like

644
00:59:33,959 --> 00:59:40,659
fancy restaurants and even in fancy restaurants um waters water comes in plastic bottles and it's

645
00:59:40,659 --> 00:59:48,859
two dollars a bottle um you know you don't get a glass of water with your meal for free um so

646
00:59:48,859 --> 01:00:00,599
there's there's a lack of lack of infrastructure there's a lack of of supplies and um oh sorry a

647
01:00:00,599 --> 01:00:08,639
lack of development and so people are still very intimately engaged with each other at that very

648
01:00:08,639 --> 01:00:16,779
very local level yeah and he does you bring up the demographics you know africa is a very young

649
01:00:16,779 --> 01:00:28,619
continent it is a very fast-growing continent in terms of its population and it is a

650
01:00:28,619 --> 01:00:37,299
it's a vibrant place people want opportunity they want to work they want to do things and so

651
01:00:37,299 --> 01:00:54,819
But there is, I do think that Africa is the prize going into this next 70, 100 years or so, where the lack of, like, everything is just opportunity.

652
01:00:54,819 --> 01:01:08,599
There's opportunity with the population. There's opportunity with the chance to industrialize, create infrastructure, to get access to natural resources and refine them into end products.

653
01:01:08,599 --> 01:01:25,919
And so there really is a Cold War 2.0 that's being fought primarily through monetary colonialism, or I don't know if it's monetary, but some form of post-colonialism.

654
01:01:26,699 --> 01:01:37,559
And the United States has no choice but to run as far and as fast in the other direction of China as possible.

655
01:01:37,559 --> 01:01:55,859
So China is offering the turnkey solution to having an entrenched dictatorship for a century that gives absolute power of control over the people to the leaders.

656
01:01:55,859 --> 01:02:04,619
the author is calling for and and you know this is no revolutionary person this is no uh this is

657
01:02:04,619 --> 01:02:10,739
no tinfoil hat wearing uh building my own nuclear submarine in my backyard lunatic this is a guy

658
01:02:10,739 --> 01:02:22,159
who was a u.s diplomat for 15 over 15 yeah um serving in africa and um he is calling for

659
01:02:22,159 --> 01:02:26,259
the United States to aggressively pursue

660
01:02:26,259 --> 01:02:39,068
promotion adoption of decentralized protocols like Bitcoin because it gives the people of Africa the tools they need

661
01:02:39,068 --> 01:02:46,548
in order to not be subjected to the Chinese level of oppression

662
01:02:46,548 --> 01:02:51,248
and subjugation that the Belt and Road Initiative is currently exporting.

663
01:02:51,248 --> 01:02:53,648
yeah

664
01:02:53,648 --> 01:02:55,628
when you look at it that way

665
01:02:55,628 --> 01:02:56,688
I think

666
01:02:56,688 --> 01:02:59,748
I think you do really have to look at

667
01:02:59,748 --> 01:03:01,628
Africa the same way that

668
01:03:01,628 --> 01:03:03,648
Europe looked at the United States

669
01:03:03,648 --> 01:03:06,088
it is a brand of opportunity

670
01:03:06,088 --> 01:03:07,788
it is rife

671
01:03:07,788 --> 01:03:09,788
with possibility

672
01:03:09,788 --> 01:03:11,608
and potential

673
01:03:11,608 --> 01:03:12,248
for growth

674
01:03:12,248 --> 01:03:15,448
it will be a leader

675
01:03:15,448 --> 01:03:17,168
and so

676
01:03:17,168 --> 01:03:19,748
you want to be able

677
01:03:19,748 --> 01:03:20,208
to like

678
01:03:20,208 --> 01:03:36,988
I think the whole time through reading this, I told you at the beginning, I was framing this as this is China running the Bretton Woods playbook, calling it the Belt and Road Initiative, and us seeing it from the other side and not liking it.

679
01:03:37,668 --> 01:03:42,148
Also not liking it because they're using our dollars to do it, right?

680
01:03:42,148 --> 01:03:44,068
So they take our debt.

681
01:03:44,268 --> 01:03:45,268
Oh, yeah, sure.

682
01:03:45,468 --> 01:03:48,928
We'll buy your 4%, 5% bonds or whatever.

683
01:03:48,928 --> 01:03:54,968
will just then repurpose them as 12%, 15% bonds in these other countries

684
01:03:54,968 --> 01:03:56,128
and will capture the spread.

685
01:03:56,248 --> 01:03:59,928
It doesn't really matter what the inflation is as long as you're capturing the spread.

686
01:04:01,308 --> 01:04:03,428
So you're able to benefit there.

687
01:04:04,428 --> 01:04:10,008
It really is a hard pill to swallow because it's a taste of your own medicine

688
01:04:10,008 --> 01:04:13,208
and seeing that it's not going to work.

689
01:04:13,208 --> 01:04:42,208
It's going to create something that is an extension of the Chinese oppression arm that will eventually, as he notes, put a military base on West Africa, which would be having nuclear submarines, whatever you want, right there, just across the pond, be able to really further expand the Chinese zone of influence.

690
01:04:43,208 --> 01:04:48,668
At the same time, of course, that means the shrinking zone of the United States' influence.

691
01:04:49,808 --> 01:05:01,008
So, yeah, it's calling for pushing more and more towards freedom, more and more towards liberty, democracy.

692
01:05:01,808 --> 01:05:10,008
Using, by the way, using the terms that have been used against that, the environmental social governance.

693
01:05:10,008 --> 01:05:17,928
governance yeah language that is in this paper in order to encourage it like hey guess what we

694
01:05:17,928 --> 01:05:23,748
can go out there and we can drive sources of renewable energy that are clean and don't harm

695
01:05:23,748 --> 01:05:30,508
the environment and they um they create opportunities for local societies to grow yeah

696
01:05:30,508 --> 01:05:36,968
yeah using using that kind of uh yeah taste of your own medicine really uh to turn back around

697
01:05:36,968 --> 01:05:57,988
When you look at Africa and what they are currently doing with Bitcoin, how they're utilizing it as a currency instead of a speculative store of value, I guess what do you see as the, is there like a tipping point?

698
01:05:57,988 --> 01:06:08,408
Do you think that there is, I mean, I think we both kind of agree that this is inevitable, that Bitcoin itself is inevitable, that this is an idea whose time has come.

699
01:06:08,408 --> 01:06:28,888
Nothing stops an idea whose time has come. But where do you see the biggest pushback, stumbling blocks, obstacles to exporting that liberal democracy model to African nations?

700
01:06:28,888 --> 01:06:49,308
Yeah, I guess first, I wouldn't consider Bitcoin inevitable. I think that it's a very powerful idea in that if it's adopted organically, we continue to adopt it organically and don't try to stifle it and don't lead ourselves towards things like, you know, zero sum nuclear annihilation competitions or whatever, that it's going to win the day.

701
01:06:49,308 --> 01:06:57,468
But I think I guess I don't want to say it's inevitable because it takes good people, you know, doing good things in order for history to advance in a good direction.

702
01:06:57,468 --> 01:07:01,568
And we should never forget that. Bitcoin doesn't fix this. People using Bitcoin do.

703
01:07:01,668 --> 01:07:05,688
And it's the people who have that will to advance in a good way.

704
01:07:05,688 --> 01:07:14,468
so the tipping point i think it's like within africa an interesting part about this essay

705
01:07:14,468 --> 01:07:23,728
is that the use of bitcoin is essentially everybody now gets a vote about what type

706
01:07:23,728 --> 01:07:30,108
of future they want to see if you begin to use bitcoin you're saying i want to i want to inhabit

707
01:07:30,108 --> 01:07:38,028
the future of a decentralized form of money that is global in scope, that is not surveilled,

708
01:07:38,268 --> 01:07:43,208
and that does not have a specific choke point that my national government can control.

709
01:07:43,808 --> 01:07:48,808
And so there's now this kind of global democracy where people are voting on the monetary system

710
01:07:48,808 --> 01:07:53,048
that they want to have. That's the way that network competitions kind of work, right? The

711
01:07:53,048 --> 01:07:59,728
network effects accrue based on how many people are using them. And so even in very authoritarian

712
01:07:59,728 --> 01:08:06,008
countries that don't have strong democratic values, Bitcoin doesn't care. Bitcoin is permissionless.

713
01:08:06,108 --> 01:08:12,688
People can begin to vote on the future they want. And African leaders, you know, or a leader of an

714
01:08:12,688 --> 01:08:18,908
authoritarian nation state, including one in Africa, can say, even if they're not a democracy,

715
01:08:19,248 --> 01:08:24,428
look, all the people are beginning to use this open source protocol as money, or people are

716
01:08:24,428 --> 01:08:29,288
actually transacting in this, they are rejecting the CBDCs that we are offering them.

717
01:08:29,728 --> 01:08:40,728
We're going to have to go either in the direction of incredible violence and state repression or seeing how we can begin to use this to our own advantage.

718
01:08:40,728 --> 01:08:48,868
And then they're going to see, wait a minute, we can also begin to stack Bitcoin by utilizing the stranded energy, which we have in droves.

719
01:08:48,988 --> 01:08:53,308
This protocol, this open system is actually in our benefit.

720
01:08:53,308 --> 01:09:03,808
So the tipping point is this filtering bottom upward of people on the street using it because it suits them and then leaders beginning to see it suits us as well.

721
01:09:03,808 --> 01:09:31,848
And then you have that sort of awakening towards the power of open systems in the same way that maybe we could say Cold War 1.0 was won by new ideas of freedom making themselves known across the Berlin Wall, making like the idea of rock and roll and blue jeans and these powerful, non-repressive notions of freedom of speech, freedom of thought, like those types of open decentralized protocols.

722
01:09:31,848 --> 01:09:34,428
that is the free market

723
01:09:34,428 --> 01:09:36,528
maybe those ended

724
01:09:36,528 --> 01:09:38,388
Cold War or won Cold War

725
01:09:38,388 --> 01:09:40,768
1.0, Cold War 2.0

726
01:09:40,768 --> 01:09:43,168
resisting neocolonialism

727
01:09:43,168 --> 01:09:44,048
resisting

728
01:09:44,048 --> 01:09:45,828
authoritarian imposition

729
01:09:45,828 --> 01:09:48,508
maybe that's won by people voting with their

730
01:09:48,508 --> 01:09:50,188
wallet so to speak, voting with

731
01:09:50,188 --> 01:09:52,908
the type of wallet that they want to have

732
01:09:52,908 --> 01:09:53,908
Yeah

733
01:09:53,908 --> 01:09:54,868
Yeah

734
01:09:54,868 --> 01:09:57,948
A lot of people wearing

735
01:09:57,948 --> 01:09:59,988
Kansas City Chiefs Super Bowl

736
01:09:59,988 --> 01:10:01,088
champion shirts

737
01:10:01,088 --> 01:10:03,468
today that

738
01:10:03,468 --> 01:10:05,848
were produced and not

739
01:10:05,848 --> 01:10:06,348
used.

740
01:10:08,708 --> 01:10:09,648
It's nice.

741
01:10:09,828 --> 01:10:11,808
We've got a head start on exporting

742
01:10:11,808 --> 01:10:12,728
culture because

743
01:10:12,728 --> 01:10:15,628
Africa has for so long

744
01:10:15,628 --> 01:10:16,668
gotten all of the

745
01:10:16,668 --> 01:10:19,868
leftover culture from the United States

746
01:10:19,868 --> 01:10:20,648
that wasn't used.

747
01:10:22,128 --> 01:10:24,028
I don't

748
01:10:24,028 --> 01:10:25,968
really know where else

749
01:10:25,968 --> 01:10:27,708
to go with this other than to...

750
01:10:27,708 --> 01:10:29,028
I had another question for you.

751
01:10:29,028 --> 01:10:50,928
So this ties into, we're reading the network state right now by Balaji Srinivasan. So Kincaid's article kind of posits two threats to sovereignty, a threat, as you described earlier, a parental authority type threat from above, when something above the government tells the government how to function, compromising sovereignty in that way.

752
01:10:50,928 --> 01:11:00,928
There's also the threat from below, the collapsing into isolation, the disintegration of our local bonds, a tech-enabled isolation.

753
01:11:01,648 --> 01:11:05,488
People order everything off Amazon rather than going to the local farmer's market.

754
01:11:06,028 --> 01:11:12,208
They meet people on Facebook rather than in person or whatever, interact that way rather than in meat space.

755
01:11:12,208 --> 01:11:19,928
so the danger of isolation to bring in alexis to toqueville a quote that kincaid has from him

756
01:11:19,928 --> 01:11:27,428
isolation quote hinders restrains enervates stifles and stultifies so much that in the end

757
01:11:27,428 --> 01:11:33,528
each nation is no more than a flock of timid and hard-working animals with the government as its

758
01:11:33,528 --> 01:11:41,048
shepherd so where does biology's idea of the network state fit into this is the network state

759
01:11:41,048 --> 01:11:48,128
idea, a tech enabled isolation, because people are opting out of their local communities and

760
01:11:48,128 --> 01:11:53,568
trying to join an international community of people that they feel more affinity to.

761
01:11:53,668 --> 01:11:58,308
They aren't going to the local farmers market, they're going to the online farmers market

762
01:11:58,308 --> 01:12:02,648
for the type of person that they are to interact with other people like them.

763
01:12:03,248 --> 01:12:09,148
So, I mean, what do you think about that is the network state tech enabled isolation in

764
01:12:09,148 --> 01:12:14,608
a way that is harmful to state-level sovereignty in the United States?

765
01:12:14,608 --> 01:12:22,888
I think it's tech-enabled community. So the network state starts online, but the goal of

766
01:12:22,888 --> 01:12:33,588
the network state is land, land, you know, last, but not never. So meeting these people online,

767
01:12:33,588 --> 01:12:41,668
forming these online communities and then choosing to utilize the resources that they have

768
01:12:41,668 --> 01:12:49,328
in order to create their own physical community where they do go to the local market,

769
01:12:49,328 --> 01:12:54,508
where they do have the face-to-face, meet-space interaction.

770
01:12:57,008 --> 01:13:00,088
This would not be possible without technology.

771
01:13:00,388 --> 01:13:02,688
Those people would never meet without technology.

772
01:13:03,588 --> 01:13:04,728
They would never connect.

773
01:13:06,468 --> 01:13:16,268
And they are the people that are, they are not the vassals working under the shepherd,

774
01:13:16,488 --> 01:13:19,908
the sheep working under the shepherd, needing guidance.

775
01:13:19,908 --> 01:13:27,968
These are, I would say, by and large, shepherds of their own, shepherding themselves and joining

776
01:13:27,968 --> 01:13:32,148
with others in order to lead their own society.

777
01:13:32,148 --> 01:13:59,888
So what I see with the network state is that it's tech that enables action that otherwise could not be taken and action to build these vibrant, small, local communities that are really a model of that African village.

778
01:13:59,888 --> 01:14:05,748
if you like if you watch the network state conference and you see the presentations by

779
01:14:05,748 --> 01:14:15,788
by network state societies like cabin or cul-de-sac there's a whole bunch of them

780
01:14:15,788 --> 01:14:22,148
there's something very consistent with all of them which is you see these people coming on not

781
01:14:22,148 --> 01:14:28,828
coming there to talk about it and they're like you know here's what we do what we do is we we live

782
01:14:28,828 --> 01:14:36,928
you know basically with our best friends we raise our kids uh together uh we teach our kids teach

783
01:14:36,928 --> 01:14:46,288
our kids together um our our children play together we um we oftentimes provide our own food

784
01:14:46,288 --> 01:14:57,328
we oftentimes um are self-sustaining in terms of energy um and so it i would i would i would

785
01:14:57,328 --> 01:15:02,888
actually say it's it's the exact opposite of isolation yeah so it's tech enabled vibrancy

786
01:15:02,888 --> 01:15:09,628
tech yeah um community uh yeah no i agree i think you're totally right i think that biology

787
01:15:09,628 --> 01:15:17,448
notices that there is already tech enabled isolation and there has been the tech driven

788
01:15:17,448 --> 01:15:23,468
maybe disintegration of local communities but he's looking for how to reintegrate using tech

789
01:15:23,468 --> 01:15:29,588
and to connect to people and then make just, you know, move people around spatially until

790
01:15:29,588 --> 01:15:36,608
they are around other people with whom they can have a common idea and purpose that will

791
01:15:36,608 --> 01:15:39,528
allow them to form a durable and lasting community.

792
01:15:39,708 --> 01:15:46,488
So I think you're totally right that, yeah, he is really savvy to these ideas of sovereignty

793
01:15:46,488 --> 01:15:52,848
from below being compromised in certain ways in the United States and in many other countries.

794
01:15:52,848 --> 01:15:59,208
and thinking about how to use networks to re-enable or enable the recreation of those.

795
01:16:00,348 --> 01:16:01,788
Yeah, so that's...

796
01:16:01,788 --> 01:16:02,308
Yeah, go ahead.

797
01:16:02,468 --> 01:16:03,528
One more thing I was going to say.

798
01:16:03,928 --> 01:16:08,188
It's, you know, these are built from the ground up off common principles.

799
01:16:08,728 --> 01:16:09,908
These being network states?

800
01:16:10,048 --> 01:16:11,168
Like these network states.

801
01:16:11,428 --> 01:16:11,608
Yeah.

802
01:16:11,608 --> 01:16:20,708
Of like, you know, principles of, or virtues of like sovereignty and self-sufficiency and resilience and self-reliance.

803
01:16:20,708 --> 01:16:28,928
and so they they arise from the same substrate and therefore they somewhat resemble each other

804
01:16:28,928 --> 01:16:36,508
so the difference right now is that i go to columbia i go to morocco i go to detroit i go

805
01:16:36,508 --> 01:16:47,008
you know uh to copenhagen and i am instantly in a completely different culture that is very

806
01:16:47,008 --> 01:16:57,588
foreign to me with network states you will go to the network state you'll you'll go to the the

807
01:16:57,588 --> 01:17:05,248
cabin location in detroit the cabin location in morocco colombia copenhagen and you'll be in that

808
01:17:05,248 --> 01:17:14,368
different location but you will be in a consistent culture with local flavor right so um i think it

809
01:17:14,368 --> 01:17:16,808
really brings the world together.

810
01:17:16,988 --> 01:17:19,468
I don't think that it dulls culture.

811
01:17:19,708 --> 01:17:22,108
I don't think that it homogenizes culture.

812
01:17:23,108 --> 01:17:24,628
I do think that it,

813
01:17:26,728 --> 01:17:30,688
much like we talk about what the network state is doing,

814
01:17:30,868 --> 01:17:33,368
which is kind of like when I was trying to,

815
01:17:33,808 --> 01:17:36,908
basically trying to sell you on this idea of,

816
01:17:37,348 --> 01:17:40,988
you know, you're not abandoning the United States.

817
01:17:41,148 --> 01:17:43,948
You're not abandoning your patriotism and your values,

818
01:17:43,948 --> 01:17:50,668
what you're doing is you're taking the best of that and then um you're letting something grow

819
01:17:50,668 --> 01:17:56,348
from that you're taking you're you're trimming you're you're you're you're cutting off the

820
01:17:56,348 --> 01:18:03,468
cutting off the toxic limb that is killing you um or trimming the branches in order to let the

821
01:18:03,468 --> 01:18:11,368
to let the bush grow yeah and so yeah i think that i think that we we get to see like a vibrancy

822
01:18:11,368 --> 01:18:17,328
and a flourishing of culture in a way that has been constrained previously.

823
01:18:18,228 --> 01:18:26,708
I think that it does model the African village very closely.

824
01:18:27,368 --> 01:18:29,188
Tight communities.

825
01:18:30,188 --> 01:18:34,448
It takes a village to raise a family, to raise the child.

826
01:18:35,068 --> 01:18:36,668
You've got local support.

827
01:18:36,668 --> 01:18:43,948
And, yeah, I think that that model plays in a lot of different locations.

828
01:18:44,588 --> 01:18:44,788
Yeah.

829
01:18:45,008 --> 01:18:55,448
No, I thought this was a very fascinating essay that mixes sociology with technology and how each of those is a driver for the other, how those interact.

830
01:18:55,448 --> 01:19:11,428
We think all too often of technology just obliterating or running through society and changing it, but not the ways that society steers the use of technology to fit people's needs and ends and purposes, which are given to us by our culture.

831
01:19:11,428 --> 01:19:29,488
And so this is a fascinating way which we can, I think, use as a stepping board to also ask, how will the culture of the place where I live, how will that influence innovation on Bitcoin or how can I use Bitcoin to better enable the functioning of the particular society or culture I inhabit?

832
01:19:29,488 --> 01:19:35,648
it. It's like the base layer of Bitcoin is this great technology for conserving value over time.

833
01:19:36,188 --> 01:19:42,348
Additional layers on top are like social layers. How do we operate our society given this newfound

834
01:19:42,348 --> 01:19:48,708
ability to conserve value over time? How do we interact with that base layer in ways that mimic

835
01:19:48,708 --> 01:19:54,208
or recreate or empower the type of interactions that we have within our society, whether community

836
01:19:54,208 --> 01:19:58,588
based or something like that? So I thought it was an awesome essay. I'm glad we read this. And again,

837
01:19:58,588 --> 01:19:59,708
I'm so ignorant of Africa.

838
01:19:59,988 --> 01:20:04,648
I like to have the reason to, you know, learn a bit more about it.

839
01:20:04,828 --> 01:20:06,508
And Bitcoin is the perfect excuse here.

840
01:20:07,148 --> 01:20:18,888
Yeah, I think in a lot of ways, I think we're intentionally made ignorant of Africa and left to think that it is, you know, nothing but this giant wasteland.

841
01:20:19,108 --> 01:20:19,928
The dark continent.

842
01:20:19,928 --> 01:20:21,088
Yeah, violence.

843
01:20:21,088 --> 01:20:25,688
And there are aspects of that.

844
01:20:26,728 --> 01:20:32,868
And how much they have been encouraged by outside forces is up to debate.

845
01:20:34,228 --> 01:20:39,208
But one thing that we do, or a couple things that we do know for certain,

846
01:20:39,328 --> 01:20:43,988
is that there is an insane amount of untapped potential.

847
01:20:44,788 --> 01:20:50,468
There is an incredibly young, vibrant population.

848
01:20:51,088 --> 01:20:58,608
And they will be making a very large impact on the global stage in the years to come.

849
01:20:58,808 --> 01:21:00,688
So, yeah, it's a fantastic read.

850
01:21:00,688 --> 01:21:09,188
This book that you have, that you're drawing these essays out from, is National Security in the Digital Age.

851
01:21:09,328 --> 01:21:10,868
And this is just fantastic.

852
01:21:12,288 --> 01:21:19,808
We're so used to the Bitcoin standard and hard money you can't quit and stuff like that.

853
01:21:19,808 --> 01:21:39,808
But to hear somebody who's a diplomat write about Bitcoin as statecraft, it's so resonant with Jason Lowry's writing for power competitions between societies.

854
01:21:39,808 --> 01:21:44,528
There are so many common themes as we go through this,

855
01:21:44,868 --> 01:21:52,628
and I will tell you that I do think that Bitcoin is inevitable.

856
01:21:52,968 --> 01:21:58,528
I think it's inevitable in the same way that the Internet was inevitable,

857
01:21:58,928 --> 01:22:02,488
that once it was released, it was going to go wherever it went.

858
01:22:03,328 --> 01:22:08,468
I suppose there are probably still some places that the oppression is great enough

859
01:22:08,468 --> 01:22:10,248
that you can't have access to the internet,

860
01:22:10,408 --> 01:22:14,568
but those are few and rapidly vanishing.

861
01:22:14,968 --> 01:22:17,568
So, yeah, it's been a brilliant read.

862
01:22:18,568 --> 01:22:19,808
More of this, man.

863
01:22:20,048 --> 01:22:23,068
More of this Bitcoin estate craft.

864
01:22:23,368 --> 01:22:25,288
Because the way that this is written,

865
01:22:25,688 --> 01:22:27,428
people who do read along with us,

866
01:22:28,268 --> 01:22:29,368
the way that this is written,

867
01:22:29,508 --> 01:22:30,668
this was one of the best ones.

868
01:22:30,808 --> 01:22:31,408
This is great.

869
01:22:32,568 --> 01:22:37,128
Just using the terminology of a diplomat,

870
01:22:37,128 --> 01:22:43,608
is fascinating to hear somebody speak about Bitcoin like that.

871
01:22:43,868 --> 01:22:46,208
So, yeah, it was a welcome read.

872
01:22:47,568 --> 01:22:47,988
Yeah, cool.

873
01:22:48,148 --> 01:22:49,708
So National Security in the Digital Age,

874
01:22:49,808 --> 01:22:51,708
Bitcoin as a Tool for Modern Statecraft,

875
01:22:51,708 --> 01:22:55,928
published by the Bitcoin Today Coalition.

876
01:22:56,208 --> 01:22:56,968
So check it out.

877
01:22:57,468 --> 01:22:57,748
All right.

878
01:22:57,868 --> 01:22:58,428
Sounds good.

879
01:22:58,728 --> 01:23:00,008
Well, until next time.

880
01:23:01,028 --> 01:23:01,428
See you.

881
01:23:01,768 --> 01:23:02,228
See you later.

882
01:23:07,128 --> 01:23:13,048
listen to, that's my brother, that's Christopher, please subscribe. It gets me one step closer to

883
01:23:13,048 --> 01:23:18,688
owning a cave and that way I'll never have to mow a lawn or replace roof shingles ever again,

884
01:23:18,968 --> 01:23:20,628
which would be wonderful. Thanks.