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If I could hope for but one thing for you, so you'd be curious in all that you do.

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Cause love like a flower just wants to grow.

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Oh, and knowledge like your heart just wants to be known.

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If you like, please subscribe. This is Bitcoin Study Sessions.

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very impressed with its both practical orientation and its philosophical scope.

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So Ivan has that kind of uncommon combination of a maker who is not afraid to theorize,

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or maybe a theorizer who's not afraid to go out and make stuff.

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So we wanted to delve a little bit deeper into this Instant Settlement series.

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Lucas invited Ivan. Ivan graciously joined us, and Ivan's here today.

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So how are you doing today, Ivan?

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Doing great. Thanks for the invite.

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Of course. I made sure to bring you in and ask how you were doing.

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We actually did a previous conversation, Ivan, Lucas, and I, and we lost it due to my technical error.

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And the previous time we did it, I just talked straight at the beginning for like 10 minutes.

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So this time I wanted to break it up so people know that Ivan is here.

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Because what we usually do on Bitcoin study sessions is we want to make this an information-dense podcast.

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So we're going to begin with kind of a summary of what Ivan wrote about from me and Lucas' perspective in the Instant Settlement series

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and then toss it over to Ivan for any clarifications.

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So from how we read it, the Instant Settlement series is a series of six essays that was published online in Bitcoin magazine about the ramifications of the capacity of Bitcoin and the Lightning Network, more specifically, to settle instantly.

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So what that means is with the fiat system, we rely on a system where we pay with credit now generally, and then there's a final settlement of funds later.

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And so this series that Ivan wrote for Bitcoin Magazine is about what changes with the experience economically, psychologically, when we can pay finally and instantly on the spot, settle instantly, instead of using credit and deferring payments to later, such as when we go through like a third party intermediary, put charges on a credit card, things like that.

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what changes both in the industries where we apply that and psychologically to the people

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that work within those industries when we're able to settle instantly.

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So Ivan, in the series of essays, applies this idea of instant settlement to various

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industries and comes away with insights into how we can both transform that industry, but

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also the underlying human behaviors and motivations of the workers, the participants in those

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industries for the better.

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So one of Ivan's big insights, as Lucas and I took it, and I think we really want to dive

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into is that settling instantly, having a final payment for a service rendered makes it much easier

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to pay for work done rather than for time spent doing the work. So without instant settlement,

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we tend to pay for time work rather than for work completed. And so that has really,

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as Ivan draws out in this series of essays, kind of big ramifications. When we pay for time,

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which is what we tend to do now, the incentives that people have in a pay-for-time system are to

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extract the maximum amount of time or maximum of reward for minimal effort. That type of system

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rewards clock watchers and taking credit for others' achievements, and people's skill sets

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tend to corrode over time because they're not rewarded for developing skills, not rewarded for

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doing good work. They're rewarded for simply sitting in a chair and passing the time until

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the project is done. Whereas when you pay for work, the best performance then yields the most

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money in new projects. So people are incentivized to develop skills, maintain their reputation.

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People compete over projects, which leads people to sharpen all of their skill sets, develop

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themselves. That then leads people to really develop who they are as a person by developing

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themselves through their work, which increases satisfaction and retention. So instant settlement

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can transform an industry and individuals within that industry.

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That's just one insight, a really big one that Ivan draws out in a series of essays,

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both for industry efficiency and for personal human development,

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by looking at instant settlement for various industries.

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And so, as I mentioned, various industries.

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There's six essays here, and they each, except for the last one, look at a different industry.

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For example, when Ivan looks at the logistics industry,

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we see how instant settlement among the links in the supply chain

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can eliminate intermediaries and middlemen and reduce credit card fees and counterparty risk.

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When we look at it in the publishing industry, we can see how instant settlement allows for

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split payments between parties. And in that way, Ivan keeps on drawing out different insights for

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different industries. But again, the bigger picture is just how instant settlement can

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shift us from a mindset of selling our time for deferred payment to a mindset of providing real

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value, doing real work in exchange for instant payment, instant settlement. So I'll stop the

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summary there, Ivan, but, and there's a lot of things to love there. Specifically, I just like

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how it really valorizes work and what work does to us, helps us develop fully as human beings.

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And also it kind of calls out the vices when we're not rewarded for work. It's really a

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ennobling vision of the future and I really appreciate it. But is there anything in that

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summary though, that I guess you wanted to add on top of that as a general summary for the project

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you were trying to do with those series of essays in the Instant Settlement series, or does that

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kind of hit it uh yeah i agree with that summary uh i i will add how it started is that when i

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started working at my current company uh at breeze and delving deep into the lightning network

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uh it just made me think okay i need to kind of sell what we do but without selling it uh and

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that idea was struggling to come out.

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And the first insight that I had was exactly this.

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Because I was basically in my fiat jobs previously,

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that when you hire somebody in the first month

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until they receive their first check or salary,

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they're the best employee, the most efforts,

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but their skills are not optimized yet.

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They're trying to figure out stuff.

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And when they receive the first money, then the game begins to be what is the minimal amount of work that I can do in order to not get fired.

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Because that's the stick in the fiat system currently.

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And that was a problem that I was facing in all the industries that I worked in with all the teams that I worked in because I was a psychopath.

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I had to ignore my economic incentive and focus on something else in order to have some logic.

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Because if you chase the most profit economically, everything that the fiat structure does is that it incentivizes not to do work.

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It incentivizes not to develop skills.

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The time will pass anyway. Whatever we do, you cannot stop time. And if your payment is directly related to time, that means that the less energy I spent, the more profit I have at the end of the month, at the end of the day, of everything else.

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And when I had this insight, okay, this changes things.

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If you can pay instantly, that means that you don't have to have this complex thing of, okay, somebody is moving everything and you need to do all sorts of complex calculations, how much you need to pay them.

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That's why we aggregate and you pay in one variable.

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We decided we'll pay based on time.

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But if the technology is now there that you can actually pay in a form of economical value instantly and for every task,

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and you can even stream payments,

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now the whole dynamic changes.

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And from that insight, I said,

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okay, let's start seeing how deep that rabbit hole goes.

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And I thought that it is going to be just two articles,

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but the more time I spent thinking about it,

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then another idea came and another idea came

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and that's why it became those six articles.

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and then I could see the matrix from all my fear jobs.

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Why the hell is nobody like me?

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And I found out from you covering guys the series that Grant,

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probably you're like me, but we never met in real life.

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So yeah, in order to be somebody that wants to be the best right now,

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you're economically disincentivized.

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You have to ignore the economic incentive

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of what I explained for time

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and to have some other motivation,

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which I wouldn't say nobody does it,

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but a very tiny majority do it.

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And that's why they become the best,

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most likely at everything.

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But now if you can tie the economical incentive

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to be exactly the same as being the best,

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now this will have all sorts of implications for everything.

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And I had no idea how deep that rabbit hole goes,

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but my essays are kind of, I wouldn't say superficial,

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but trying to grasp this is the right point of view

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how you need to look at this new system.

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Yeah, and I want to toss it over to you, Lucas, for a question, but I just want to note generally, also not superficial, and you offer the caveat that you're not an insider in any of these industries you examine.

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You're really just doing kind of a general principles.

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If there was instant settlement, what might it mean for these various industries?

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And then you kind of turn it over and say, reader, you know, whatever industry you're in, you know, what type, how could you take this lens, this way of looking at the world of instant settlement and then conceive of some app to help put it in place?

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And then what would that change about how you do things and how you think and your industry?

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So I thought it was excellent.

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But Lucas, I'll toss it over to you for follow up there.

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Yeah, I think first we examine, so Ivan really brings to forefront the idea that we all know exists, but most people don't want to admit, which is that you do have somewhat of an adversarial relationship with your employer typically, in that one of you is trying to not do much and the other is trying to not pay much.

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So it does go both ways.

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The employee is trying to work as little as possible.

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The employer is trying to pay as little as possible.

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And make them do as much as possible.

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Like that's a direct conflict.

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Yeah.

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So the employee's mindset is how little can I do and still not get fired?

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And the employer's mindset is how much can we get out of them while paying them the least and they not quit?

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and so it does go both ways

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one of the things that I

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so we're talking about

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this is coming to fruition right now

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this is real world examples that we're seeing

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currently my

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one of my friends here at the network school

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the way that he makes his living

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is by going after these coding bounties

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so there's a

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say a shit coin chain

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like Solana or Ethereum or Celo, something like that,

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and they need an outcome.

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And their outcome is that they want to increase volume on their chain.

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So they want more people to be using their chain.

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So what's the means to that end?

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The means to that end is to get developers to develop things on that chain.

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And so therefore, they'll hold these bounties.

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and they call it hackathons or whatever.

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So a great example, this one that he's currently working on,

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there's $295,000 worth of prizes.

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I believe there's like 11 different categories or something

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that those prizes will be given out.

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There's currently like 75 different teams working to earn these prizes.

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And if you do a good job and they pick yours,

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then you'll end up getting paid $20,000, $30,000.

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If you do a terrible job, then you'll get nothing.

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And so it will reflect your input.

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It will reflect your skill and your mastery.

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There is still going to exist that adversarial relationship, right?

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We are still going to have the hiring party is still going to be trying to pay

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as little as they can to get the outcome that they want.

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And whoever is trying to fulfill that, they're still going to be doing the least amount that they can

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in order to achieve that outcome.

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But the difference is we're not compounding this over a year, over years, over a month, over even a week.

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We are merely limiting this to one simple activity, one job, one task.

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And so if you're compounding laziness, if you're compounding lack of effort,

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if you're compounding an adversarial relationship,

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then it's going to get worse and worse exponentially.

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If you're limiting it to just one thing, then your loss, your friction is much less.

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And so I think that we've got kind of a good grasp now on what is a real-world example

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of how this is being used, how this is being applied, and what are the benefits that we're seeing.

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And I would say that the benefits that we're seeing is that the pay is actually higher per unit of hour worked,

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with the caveat that the pay is higher per unit of skilled hour worked, right?

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So we are rewarding skill more than we're rewarding time.

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We're moving in the right direction.

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And we're seeing probably a more positive outcome for both the consumer, the employer, and the employee.

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So the way that you put it, the way that Ivan puts it in the writings is the classic brick by brick, skill by skill.

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I'm going to refine and I'm going to master something in order to be good enough at it that they can't ignore me.

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And I think you do a very good job of doing that.

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And digging deeper and deeper into that is something that we're going to be living through in the next few years and possibly for the rest of our lives, I would assume, as we really kind of grasp this gig-based economy, this bounty-based economy.

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So I think you've done a great job of really throwing that out to us.

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the forcing function of getting paid for skill and getting paid for mastery,

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there is something moral about it.

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There is something inherently good about striving to be better, faster, stronger.

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And so the downside, or not the downside, the upside,

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is that even if you do fail and you're not the one achieving the ultimate,

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you're continuously refining your skills.

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Whereas on the other side, if you are in an employer-employee relationship

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and you end up failing, then not only have you not gained any skills,

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now you have this negative mark on your record that makes it seem as though you're not employable.

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So I think it's really self-aware of you to think that about yourself.

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to understand, oh, you know, this is why people don't like me. It's not because I'm a dick,

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even though you might be, who knows, we're not going to judge, but it's because you go hard

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when other people are not. And people don't like that because we're all trying not to rock the

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boat. We're all trying not to mess anything up because right now we've got this good thing where

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we don't work hard, we still get paid and we have a cushy job. So, um, yeah, it's a,

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It's a wonderful assessment of that and a way to really frame how we're going to advance as a society.

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And I'll stop there because I don't have a question.

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And I'll probably let you kind of riff on that if you don't mind, Ivan.

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Yeah. Just to tell you my fiat experience before I had any idea about Bitcoin, who I am, with a few examples.

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I had to become a manager of a warehouse. It was a retail shop and stuff like that,

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but I needed to coordinate stuff like that. I was a part-time worker before I became a manager,

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but when I did become, I said, okay, I need to tackle this

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properly and I read the Toyota book to optimize manufacturing I said I thought that that would be

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useful and it definitely was and I manufacturing they said it's not about optimizing everything

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it's really about mainly deleting anything unnecessary you need to really specify what

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is the high value point of actually doing work and delete everything else that is unnecessary

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and that's how you optimize the assembly line and everything else that is in manufacturing that's

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the idea and i applied that thinking in our warehouse and in two weeks just that thought

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alone i doubled the productivity from and then from two weeks later i doubled again like so

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So in a month, I did four times as much.

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And actually, I did it with one less person in the warehouse.

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Previously, there were four people.

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Now we are three and we are doing four times as much.

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And now I have so much free time that I wanted another department in the store.

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And who paid me to do that?

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Nobody.

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I received the same salary like the person before me and the person after me.

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But why did I do it?

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because I simply wanted to do the best job.

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And not only that, that I do that and my colleagues watched me this negative way.

222
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Why the hell are you doing so much effort?

223
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You're not receiving more money.

224
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They couldn't logically grasp this idea.

225
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Like you're not receiving anything more than me.

226
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So why the hell are you pushing?

227
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But I didn't care in any shape or form.

228
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And not only that, that I didn't care about the colleagues that I had when they gave me the other department, I said, okay, I have an idea.

229
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I watched some training at home about sales and I said, okay, this is applicable in my situation.

230
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I wanted to test it in the store where I was working.

231
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And the person said, and I went there in my day off and I put on my uniform, everything else and the store manager said, go home. You're not supposed to be here.

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And I said, I don't want any money. I want to increase sales about this. And he had to call me why the hell I am here. And at some point, I was even refusing to go home. And I said, okay, like, let me be clear. I'm here. I'm telling you that I don't want money. And I want to put more money in your pocket. And you're saying no. Is that clear?

233
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And then he had to reassess what the hell he was thinking.

234
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And he said, okay, how much do you want to stay?

235
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And I said, I don't know.

236
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Like, I'll stay how much I want to.

237
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I just want to test this theory.

238
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So, yeah, I was that guy that I wasn't even going to let my superiors stop me from doing the best job.

239
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I had to fire my bosses sometimes in order to achieve that.

240
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And that was completely illogical even for them.

241
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And for me, it was like, why the hell am I putting so much effort and we are not aligned?

242
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All of those efforts, like, I couldn't understand why the hell nobody wants to be the best.

243
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And it was just about the incentives.

244
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It was about the control.

245
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It was about all of those crap that we have to deal in our fiat infrastructure.

246
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and you have to completely ignore that to be somebody like me

247
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and be in the face of everybody that this is not the proper way.

248
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And I had another time where I wanted to test some promotional campaign

249
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and I said, okay, give me about $50.

250
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I wanted to test this thing and they said no.

251
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And then I funded it myself.

252
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I showed the results that this increased sales three times and they still said no.

253
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And I then funded it again.

254
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And like nobody would stop me to be the best.

255
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But this is just, I had no idea why.

256
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And when I stumbled onto this idea that people are not paid for work done for results.

257
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now this is what unleashed those six articles it was the the foundation was laid from my character

258
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and i couldn't understand what the hell is the problem why the hell are people not this way why

259
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is nobody like me anywhere i was desperate to find one person like me and the people that i

260
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found were in sports and I understood that in sports there is that dynamic, the proper

261
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mentality like me, because there you have the economical thing, just like fiat, but there

262
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the other dynamic is if you want the trophy, that means that you have to be the best.

263
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And people that go for professional sports, that is their main motivations a lot of the time.

264
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And when somebody goes really deep, nobody is there that says, I'll become a millionaire, so I'll go do football, I'll go do basketball, I'll go do baseball.

265
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They start with, I want to be the best in that thing.

266
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And then the effect is, they become a millionaire.

267
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But that's why it connected with me in sports.

268
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But what it revealed, again, with the articles that that dynamic is not present in our labor market.

269
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And no wonder why so very, very few people are actually really, really good.

270
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And the vast majority is just lethargic and lazy.

271
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Could you connect the dot, though, to the fiat, between the fiat system and necessarily not incentivizing productive attitudes in the workplace?

272
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I can see how it is maybe it does. That is the way that things often play out now, where it happened to you.

273
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It happened to me, where simply, you know, there's a managerial level above a person that doesn't enable that person's full productive capacity.

274
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but could you draw the line there what about instant settlement prevents or stops that and

275
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why can't we have that without instant settlement why can't we have better incentives in the

276
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workplace without having instant settlement yeah uh i wouldn't say that exactly instant settlement

277
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is the thing but uh the other thing that i say that i don't think uh in bitcoin there's a killer

278
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app everybody is searching for the killer app i think it's the killer feature and the killer feature

279
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is the split payment because that is the thing that gets you completely aligned with somebody

280
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else and because of that what you said about the bounties yeah it's getting closer to that idea

281
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but if somebody creates a bounty in the example the uh look as you said there's still this friction

282
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that the employer is also the client for the person that is chasing the bounty.

283
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So the person that is giving the money is also the person that is giving you the dynamic

284
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to go chase somebody else.

285
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:13,500
But if you completely align and let's say, okay, you're going to receive 20% of anybody

286
00:27:13,500 --> 00:27:20,300
that does this solution in the future now you are completely aligned it's not a bounty because how

287
00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:26,540
can you assess what is the proper amount of the bounty like you can overpay a bounty or underpay

288
00:27:26,540 --> 00:27:33,260
a bounty based on the results on the other side so it's getting it closer because it's not paying

289
00:27:33,260 --> 00:27:52,133
for time uh i i understand that but it still just missing uh this point that uh one person is is paying for something else but based on that is trying to achieve something else So that is the Grant what it really is the difference

290
00:27:52,293 --> 00:27:58,573
Because if you completely align with your supervisors, with your owners, with your teammates,

291
00:27:58,954 --> 00:28:04,994
now you go fight together as one whole entity, just like a sports team,

292
00:28:04,994 --> 00:28:10,894
and not other people are incentivized to optimize for themselves

293
00:28:10,894 --> 00:28:13,033
because exactly with the bounty.

294
00:28:13,033 --> 00:28:19,414
If I give a bounty, I'm still going to try to underpay for the result at the end.

295
00:28:19,813 --> 00:28:22,313
But if we are complete teammates,

296
00:28:22,553 --> 00:28:27,734
we just negotiate what is the proper percentage for going and doing that job.

297
00:28:28,113 --> 00:28:30,333
So that is what I would say about this.

298
00:28:30,694 --> 00:28:33,214
I want to focus on that a little bit

299
00:28:33,214 --> 00:28:42,194
So split payments, I think we need to kind of make sure that we're talking about the exact same thing.

300
00:28:42,533 --> 00:28:52,714
Because what you're talking about more closely resembles the interoperability and the capability of what I would think of as a smart contract.

301
00:28:52,714 --> 00:29:02,293
So something that you're able to tie the provenance of a skill or a product back to the original creator.

302
00:29:03,214 --> 00:29:08,573
such that the original creator is rewarded throughout the entire process.

303
00:29:08,573 --> 00:29:14,533
And let me lay out the way that this first appeared to me as something useful.

304
00:29:15,274 --> 00:29:23,694
So in agriculture, there has long been a cry for what's known as COOL, C-O-O-L,

305
00:29:23,873 --> 00:29:26,754
country of origin labeling, which is simply,

306
00:29:26,754 --> 00:29:34,254
we want to know the provenance of our beef or our chicken or our pork. We want to know

307
00:29:34,254 --> 00:29:41,394
beyond just what country. It would be really great if we knew all the way down to not just

308
00:29:41,394 --> 00:29:47,053
what farm it came out of, but what cow it came out of. What pasture was that cow in?

309
00:29:48,293 --> 00:29:55,793
Currently, the way this works is that I, as the rancher, I raise beef. I sell that beef.

310
00:29:55,793 --> 00:30:05,853
typically to a middleman. That middleman grows that cattle even more up until about slaughter weight.

311
00:30:06,593 --> 00:30:12,053
They then sell it to another middleman who slaughters it, adds value.

312
00:30:12,853 --> 00:30:25,773
After that, it gets sold to another man who sells it to a butcher shop or some sort of end retailer.

313
00:30:25,793 --> 00:30:28,654
and then after that it goes to the consumer.

314
00:30:29,773 --> 00:30:32,793
And so at each step in this process, value is added.

315
00:30:33,434 --> 00:30:37,813
The farmer, the rancher adds the value by the genetics that they select,

316
00:30:37,914 --> 00:30:42,674
by their husbandry methods through the way that they raise the cattle.

317
00:30:44,313 --> 00:30:49,654
The cattle feeder, they add value by putting on 400 pounds worth of more beef.

318
00:30:49,654 --> 00:30:58,113
The high-skill labor of the butcher adds value by cutting it in a way that is difficult for normal people to do.

319
00:30:58,773 --> 00:31:08,934
And then clear at the very end, you've got the specific cuts and you've got the fact that it is geographically close and available to you so that you as the end consumer can purchase it.

320
00:31:10,414 --> 00:31:17,014
Currently, if I'm going to sell beef, I'm going to sell it for about $2 a pound.

321
00:31:17,014 --> 00:31:27,194
when you buy it it's going to cost you about 20 and so i don't receive any of that additional value

322
00:31:27,194 --> 00:31:34,333
even though i was the one who basically if you want to think about it from a different i i was

323
00:31:34,333 --> 00:31:41,113
the one who created the original thing i was the one who had the original deal so this application

324
00:31:41,113 --> 00:31:53,214
of split payments with this sort of value chain linked provenance allows for not just a split

325
00:31:53,214 --> 00:32:02,994
payment at the beginning, but it allows for as that product, as that creation moves through the

326
00:32:02,994 --> 00:32:11,093
value chain and value is added to it, then each participant in that value chain is able to

327
00:32:11,093 --> 00:32:19,353
participate in the upside and the appreciation. And what that does is align incentives throughout

328
00:32:19,353 --> 00:32:27,974
the entire thing. Currently, the person I sell my beef to wants to get the best of me. They want to

329
00:32:27,974 --> 00:32:34,434
pay as little for it. I want to give them as little as possible. That moves all the way through the

330
00:32:34,434 --> 00:32:40,533
value chain clear to the very end. And so that adversarial relationship that we're talking about

331
00:32:40,533 --> 00:32:48,053
with the employer, pay for time, it exists in that current nature too, even if you're selling cattle.

332
00:32:48,214 --> 00:32:56,573
But if we're able to put the ear tag on the cattle that has the smart chip in it that links that smart chip

333
00:32:56,573 --> 00:33:05,754
to me, the producer, Grant, who's the butcher, Ivan, who is the end retailer, then we can all participate

334
00:33:05,754 --> 00:33:09,694
and it benefits each one of us to gain.

335
00:33:09,873 --> 00:33:14,714
So is that an accurate summary of what you're talking about with split payments?

336
00:33:14,934 --> 00:33:17,833
And what else would you add to that?

337
00:33:18,194 --> 00:33:19,593
And what other examples?

338
00:33:19,593 --> 00:33:26,254
So in your instant settlement series, you talk about the construction industry, logistics, publishing,

339
00:33:26,974 --> 00:33:29,714
real-time streaming payments, and the gambling industry.

340
00:33:29,714 --> 00:33:37,914
So I want to throw it back to you and ask if you have some other examples that you see might better fit kind of what we're trying to talk about.

341
00:33:38,194 --> 00:33:44,454
And also to let me know if I've accurately summarized it by my bull in the China shop example.

342
00:33:45,073 --> 00:33:47,353
Yeah, I would say yes.

343
00:33:48,014 --> 00:33:52,333
I wouldn't focus too much on the discrepancy on the prices.

344
00:33:52,333 --> 00:34:03,573
But exactly what you said, that it's not teammate mentality if we're separate entities.

345
00:34:03,793 --> 00:34:07,633
Everybody is going to optimize first for themselves.

346
00:34:08,113 --> 00:34:14,194
And that's why it's $2 here, $10 there, $20 at the end, the consumer.

347
00:34:14,194 --> 00:34:30,894
I don't have any problem with, let's say, the rancher, the person that's raising the cows, saying I will receive 10% of it, which equals $2 out of the 20.

348
00:34:30,894 --> 00:34:52,354
But now we are incentivized to optimize all the processes so I get my 10% and I'm not going to fight, scheme, think how I have to optimize my relationship with the other suppliers in that particular chain.

349
00:34:52,354 --> 00:34:57,753
I am one with them and we go for the trophy.

350
00:34:58,033 --> 00:35:02,533
In this case, it's sell a stake to a client, for example.

351
00:35:02,954 --> 00:35:03,533
That's it.

352
00:35:03,834 --> 00:35:05,434
We optimize all of us.

353
00:35:05,553 --> 00:35:07,233
Now we're pointed in one direction.

354
00:35:07,593 --> 00:35:16,093
And the only thing, even when you start optimizing this way, you're going to see even when we're completely teammates,

355
00:35:16,773 --> 00:35:20,053
who deserves even more percentage, who is less.

356
00:35:20,053 --> 00:35:24,513
Because if somebody is a good marketer, why not receive a bigger percentage?

357
00:35:24,854 --> 00:35:34,434
Or if somebody is not a very good rancher, why should they get even 10% if the meat after all is bad?

358
00:35:34,753 --> 00:35:35,934
I don't know.

359
00:35:35,934 --> 00:35:39,593
But the point is now we work together.

360
00:35:40,374 --> 00:35:54,154
And if you, let's say, are not holding your end of that team fight, I'm going to come to you and say, OK, can you optimize this and that?

361
00:35:54,273 --> 00:35:58,654
I'm not going to be against you and trying to undercut you.

362
00:35:58,654 --> 00:36:03,513
I want you to be the best because you being the best increases my value.

363
00:36:03,794 --> 00:36:04,533
Just like in Bitcoin.

364
00:36:04,533 --> 00:36:07,914
If I do something to increase the value of Bitcoin, you benefit.

365
00:36:08,394 --> 00:36:09,874
If you do it, I benefit.

366
00:36:10,133 --> 00:36:13,434
And that's the same mentality there with split payment.

367
00:36:13,894 --> 00:36:27,454
And I love how this ties to software for me is that Jason Larry says that the best power projection strategy is to get stuck with something.

368
00:36:27,454 --> 00:36:34,394
And that happened way back when the soup of sales started fighting against each other.

369
00:36:34,533 --> 00:36:35,994
But two of them got stuck.

370
00:36:36,374 --> 00:36:40,334
And now they combined resources and they aligned exactly this.

371
00:36:40,334 --> 00:36:45,573
They did split payment of going fighting for the extra energy.

372
00:36:45,914 --> 00:36:50,033
That is what's going to happen in the economical sense here.

373
00:36:50,334 --> 00:36:54,314
And it's going to mirror the universe.

374
00:36:54,773 --> 00:36:59,954
And when I did spaces with the publisher from Bitcoin Magazine, the editor, I'm sorry,

375
00:36:59,954 --> 00:37:08,733
we said that right now the fiat payment is completely detached from the universe it's some

376
00:37:08,733 --> 00:37:15,613
abstraction layer that we deal with but if we do it completely connected inst because the universe

377
00:37:15,613 --> 00:37:25,513
settles instantly if i walk a step i don't get the benefit of that step two seconds later i receive

378
00:37:25,513 --> 00:37:34,113
it instantly. If I go pick up a cup, I receive that benefit instantly. And now the payment

379
00:37:34,113 --> 00:37:41,033
will actually be exactly the same with nature because before money were invented and let's

380
00:37:41,033 --> 00:37:48,633
say we wanted to get the stake from a cow, we organized and we said, okay, you are the

381
00:37:48,633 --> 00:37:53,113
person that will build the fence that will trap you're the person with the spears, you

382
00:37:53,113 --> 00:37:59,193
were this, you're that, and we were this collective team that was pointed at the same direction.

383
00:37:59,193 --> 00:38:05,773
But when we split the economical things to be just abstraction and more and more disconnected

384
00:38:05,773 --> 00:38:14,354
to reality, this is the problems that over time is trying to have its own problems.

385
00:38:14,354 --> 00:38:16,693
It's just completely different system.

386
00:38:16,693 --> 00:38:23,733
And now with instant settlement and split payment, the more entities that you can split

387
00:38:23,733 --> 00:38:30,013
it with, that means more people are on your team because you can do split payments.

388
00:38:30,013 --> 00:38:34,654
As you said, the rancher can split payment within their team.

389
00:38:34,654 --> 00:38:39,454
But if they don't connect to the butcher and the butcher don't connect to the restaurant,

390
00:38:39,454 --> 00:38:41,854
let's say there are still separate entities.

391
00:38:41,854 --> 00:38:50,294
But the more and more people you can put into the split payment, the more people are on your team and not on somebody else's.

392
00:38:50,414 --> 00:38:54,573
Even if they're kind of aligned, it's still not completely aligned.

393
00:38:55,633 --> 00:39:04,593
So I do just want to point out, not only does the universe settle instantly, it also carries on perpetually.

394
00:39:04,593 --> 00:39:15,773
So you go do a workout and you instantly receive the pheromones or the hormones or whatever benefit from that workout.

395
00:39:15,974 --> 00:39:22,294
But three weeks, four weeks, two months later is you're continuing to see the benefit of that.

396
00:39:22,454 --> 00:39:26,674
You're showing that muscle as that builds into the future.

397
00:39:27,394 --> 00:39:29,874
Of course, the flip side of that is true as well, right?

398
00:39:29,874 --> 00:39:30,794
You eat the muffin.

399
00:39:30,794 --> 00:39:35,133
you instantly are able to have the sugar rush.

400
00:39:36,174 --> 00:39:40,894
And then three weeks, four weeks later, now you have a muffin top as well.

401
00:39:40,894 --> 00:39:41,454
Yeah.

402
00:39:41,713 --> 00:39:42,674
Carrying that around.

403
00:39:42,974 --> 00:39:49,113
So we do see these parallels to nature,

404
00:39:49,633 --> 00:39:55,073
which really reflect the softwar thesis that we talked about with Jason Lowry

405
00:39:55,073 --> 00:40:02,934
and with Robert Breedlove is that this software is based and grounded in nature.

406
00:40:04,133 --> 00:40:08,273
What we need to do is we still need to figure out the hierarchy.

407
00:40:08,533 --> 00:40:14,674
So back to that ranching example, I'm going to sell you my beef on a percentage amount

408
00:40:14,674 --> 00:40:18,154
instead of for a strict dollar amount.

409
00:40:18,434 --> 00:40:20,713
But what is that percentage amount?

410
00:40:20,874 --> 00:40:22,934
Is it 10%? Is it 5%?

411
00:40:22,934 --> 00:40:36,093
You're the butcher. Is your value add, is it 12%, is it 30%? Right now, the rancher gets about 10%, the butcher gets about 50%, right?

412
00:40:36,093 --> 00:40:42,854
And so going into the future, is that something that I do?

413
00:40:43,033 --> 00:40:46,613
Do you feel I guess I think this is I think this is probably a good question.

414
00:40:46,834 --> 00:40:49,814
It might be a little too a little too obvious.

415
00:40:50,033 --> 00:41:04,294
But what do you feel is the impact of being able to trace all of that back to the original creator, have that original creator benefit all throughout the chain?

416
00:41:04,294 --> 00:41:16,294
I would say that right now that those at the higher end of the value chain, those that do the where there are fewer there are fewer offerings.

417
00:41:17,053 --> 00:41:19,253
Like, for example, I'm going to stick with beef.

418
00:41:19,374 --> 00:41:21,654
There's there's four butchers in the United States.

419
00:41:21,753 --> 00:41:23,154
There's four major butchers.

420
00:41:23,314 --> 00:41:26,013
Everything goes through four major butchers.

421
00:41:26,733 --> 00:41:30,613
And so that creates a bottleneck that gives them a competitive advantage.

422
00:41:30,613 --> 00:41:37,193
And that also allows them to pay less for what they're doing and push certain people out.

423
00:41:37,193 --> 00:41:59,033
So do you feel that we are moving into an era where those people who provide the initial ground effort, the starting point for goods and services, do you feel that they will receive a higher proportion of the final value?

424
00:41:59,033 --> 00:42:16,854
Or do you feel that we're entering this cutthroat gig economy where only the top 0.1% of people are even able to be employed because they are good and everybody else is not as good?

425
00:42:16,854 --> 00:42:33,394
And if I'm an employer and I can just a la carte pick what I want for an outcome, I'm not going to invest in a long-term relationship with a mediocre subpar employee and hope that they eventually get that done.

426
00:42:33,633 --> 00:42:42,253
I'm simply going to wait my turn until the 0.1% top performer can do my work.

427
00:42:42,253 --> 00:42:48,593
so do you i guess what i'm what i'm asking is do you feel that we're entering an age of abundance

428
00:42:48,593 --> 00:42:54,613
or an age of scarcity due to these real-time streaming payments and the ability to split

429
00:42:54,613 --> 00:43:04,753
yeah i would say uh abundance but then is the long uh answer uh the first thing is that i want

430
00:43:04,753 --> 00:43:11,854
to make clear uh about the things that you talk about nature that you have something instant

431
00:43:11,854 --> 00:43:14,654
but then there are second and third order consequences.

432
00:43:15,033 --> 00:43:20,894
You provoked me to think that that is exactly what I was describing in the articles,

433
00:43:21,233 --> 00:43:26,834
that just because you have instant settlement, there are second and third order effects on our psyche,

434
00:43:27,093 --> 00:43:30,394
on our behavior, on our actions, on our cooperations.

435
00:43:30,713 --> 00:43:33,613
All of those are not really about the instant settlement,

436
00:43:33,894 --> 00:43:38,593
but that instant settlement flows into those second and third order effects.

437
00:43:38,593 --> 00:43:41,154
And in nature, it's the same.

438
00:43:41,154 --> 00:43:48,874
If I start running, even right now sprinting, my heartbeat will catch up a little bit later.

439
00:43:49,053 --> 00:43:54,814
So it's not really instantly settled, but the work that I did settles instantly.

440
00:43:54,974 --> 00:43:58,533
And those third and fourth consequences happen.

441
00:43:59,133 --> 00:44:07,174
On the butcher side about the competition, I do believe that right now we don't have competition.

442
00:44:07,174 --> 00:44:12,334
Not only that, but the centralizing forces are everywhere because of this dynamic.

443
00:44:12,814 --> 00:44:20,914
Because everybody is pricing in any industry, in any team, anything that happens in our fiat systems.

444
00:44:21,454 --> 00:44:30,053
Some people are so much better just because the economical discrepancy than other people.

445
00:44:30,593 --> 00:44:34,354
In the fiat center, the competition will be brutal.

446
00:44:34,633 --> 00:44:35,033
Absolutely.

447
00:44:35,033 --> 00:44:41,073
But because the competition is brutal, let's take again any sport.

448
00:44:41,613 --> 00:44:50,014
Not watching as money, but any sport that has been on the market for more than 50 years,

449
00:44:50,434 --> 00:44:57,093
you can watch the, let's say, the best football match 50 years ago and the best one today.

450
00:44:57,474 --> 00:45:01,073
The sport was elevated because of the brutal competition.

451
00:45:01,073 --> 00:45:09,874
there's always going to be the top performer of everything that will have the most prizes

452
00:45:09,874 --> 00:45:18,713
the most economical prizes anything else but the whole point is even the worst people that are

453
00:45:18,713 --> 00:45:27,233
in the sport are better than the ones that are outside of it so i want to make the labor market

454
00:45:27,233 --> 00:45:35,253
a competition so everybody is better than being lethargic and weak i want to get out of that

455
00:45:35,253 --> 00:45:43,173
because the point is not that people will starve at the bottom because on the bitcoin standard

456
00:45:43,173 --> 00:45:52,894
we talked i i said it in some other articles that jeff booth taps into this because

457
00:45:52,894 --> 00:45:59,494
technology is a deflationary force. If you're on the Bitcoin standard is the only thing that

458
00:45:59,494 --> 00:46:07,693
will provide more and more value to the bottom of any competition. But on the fiat standard,

459
00:46:08,294 --> 00:46:14,874
the bottom is preyed upon. It's extracting resources from them and putting it on the top.

460
00:46:14,874 --> 00:46:18,994
on the Bitcoin system, everything flows to everybody.

461
00:46:19,354 --> 00:46:23,874
So you may not be the best, but you're not going to starve

462
00:46:23,874 --> 00:46:29,713
because your skills become better and you can afford more.

463
00:46:30,033 --> 00:46:35,113
So for the people that want to compete, the competition will be brutal.

464
00:46:35,794 --> 00:46:39,434
But your life in general will be better.

465
00:46:39,713 --> 00:46:43,613
And you just need to pick what sport do you want to be in.

466
00:46:43,613 --> 00:46:52,213
just let's say messi uh if he let's say was playing basketball and football was he going to

467
00:46:52,213 --> 00:46:59,753
be the best in football absolutely not uh and that's the whole thing but just because uh he's

468
00:46:59,753 --> 00:47:07,154
a footballer uh that does that thing mean that he cannot consume let's say podcast he cannot consume

469
00:47:07,154 --> 00:47:13,654
basketball events he cannot consume no he can consume them but he chose a lane that he wants

470
00:47:13,654 --> 00:47:22,414
to focus in on his craft and who uh where he wants to compete in that uh sport and that uh

471
00:47:22,414 --> 00:47:29,894
when that thing happens in the labor market then you have much more incentive to chase your craft

472
00:47:29,894 --> 00:47:36,954
and to say i work for this company no this is not my team i don't like to work this uh it

473
00:47:36,954 --> 00:47:38,673
it's a struggle for me.

474
00:47:38,874 --> 00:47:39,633
So I quit.

475
00:47:40,454 --> 00:47:44,113
The sport is better because you're not forced to stay.

476
00:47:44,434 --> 00:47:50,213
Because the thing in the fiat system is not only that the best people are not incentivized,

477
00:47:50,693 --> 00:47:53,514
but the worst people stay in the company.

478
00:47:53,794 --> 00:48:01,414
That the people that want to just hold, stay and watch the clock, they stay.

479
00:48:01,613 --> 00:48:06,173
That was the thing that when I was a manager was annoying really to me.

480
00:48:06,173 --> 00:48:20,974
And when you have this deflationary force, yeah, you choose a lane that you want to compete and be brutal, but you have more and you can consume anything else that will become more and more and more affordable over time.

481
00:48:20,974 --> 00:48:26,294
what would you say to somebody who says i don't want to be the michael jordan of corporate

482
00:48:26,294 --> 00:48:30,733
accounting i'm in that because i saw it as a lucrative job when i went into it but i don't

483
00:48:30,733 --> 00:48:36,154
want to be the michelangelo of you know some corporate accounts thing i'm working on i'm fine

484
00:48:36,154 --> 00:48:40,814
punching the clock and then getting back to what really matters to me which is going home with my

485
00:48:40,814 --> 00:48:46,213
family and working on i play the guitar i have these side projects that are very interesting to

486
00:48:46,213 --> 00:48:49,733
me, but that are non-renumerative, um, that don't pay me anything.

487
00:48:49,733 --> 00:48:52,633
I, you know, I know I have to work because that's where we live in.

488
00:48:52,814 --> 00:49:00,633
I really don't want a hyper competitive world and I'm fine not being pushed to be, to exert

489
00:49:00,633 --> 00:49:07,173
all of that energy and development in my work life because that's only the shallowest part

490
00:49:07,173 --> 00:49:07,533
of me.

491
00:49:07,533 --> 00:49:10,613
I would say

492
00:49:10,613 --> 00:49:12,514
it's a good time

493
00:49:12,514 --> 00:49:15,253
good that you were not born

494
00:49:15,253 --> 00:49:18,053
a thousand years ago

495
00:49:18,053 --> 00:49:19,014
like

496
00:49:19,014 --> 00:49:20,514
nature is not asking

497
00:49:20,514 --> 00:49:21,713
the first thing

498
00:49:21,713 --> 00:49:23,193
but also

499
00:49:23,193 --> 00:49:24,994
even if we take modern times

500
00:49:24,994 --> 00:49:26,633
why the hell are you

501
00:49:26,633 --> 00:49:27,414
comparing

502
00:49:27,414 --> 00:49:29,454
yourself to Michael Jordan

503
00:49:29,454 --> 00:49:30,093
to Messi

504
00:49:30,093 --> 00:49:31,874
and to the best of the best of the best

505
00:49:31,874 --> 00:49:33,253
how many people are in

506
00:49:33,253 --> 00:49:35,053
NBA at all

507
00:49:35,053 --> 00:49:35,593
like

508
00:49:35,593 --> 00:49:41,213
the field is not the 1% of the 1% of the 1%.

509
00:49:41,213 --> 00:49:42,954
The field is much faster

510
00:49:42,954 --> 00:49:44,854
and you don't have to be the best.

511
00:49:45,213 --> 00:49:47,093
But if you don't want to compete,

512
00:49:47,494 --> 00:49:48,733
that's the whole idea.

513
00:49:48,994 --> 00:49:51,233
Nature says if you don't want to compete,

514
00:49:51,494 --> 00:49:53,154
you don't want to fight for your foot,

515
00:49:53,434 --> 00:49:54,014
then you die.

516
00:49:54,633 --> 00:49:55,713
That's the idea.

517
00:49:56,374 --> 00:49:58,434
Decide to compete at what level,

518
00:49:58,434 --> 00:49:59,934
how much intensity,

519
00:50:00,193 --> 00:50:01,673
that's a different thing.

520
00:50:01,954 --> 00:50:03,733
But if you don't want to compete,

521
00:50:03,733 --> 00:50:06,693
That means that the universe doesn't want you.

522
00:50:07,154 --> 00:50:07,573
So why?

523
00:50:07,854 --> 00:50:10,033
And that's the whole problem in the fiat system.

524
00:50:10,773 --> 00:50:13,874
Some companies, some countries are zombie companies.

525
00:50:14,233 --> 00:50:16,273
Why the hell are they still alive?

526
00:50:16,633 --> 00:50:20,834
Because the system allows it, but the universe wants them to die.

527
00:50:21,213 --> 00:50:25,974
We just tapped into this economical sense that we exploit the bug in the system

528
00:50:25,974 --> 00:50:29,954
where somebody can print economical energy for themselves

529
00:50:29,954 --> 00:50:34,073
and still use it for your resources.

530
00:50:34,434 --> 00:50:38,733
And again, that system will break at some point.

531
00:50:38,934 --> 00:50:41,374
I don't have to do anything to attack it.

532
00:50:41,673 --> 00:50:43,474
It will collapse on its own weight.

533
00:50:43,474 --> 00:50:46,394
I just need to develop the new system

534
00:50:46,394 --> 00:50:48,093
so when that thing crashes,

535
00:50:48,654 --> 00:50:53,053
more and more people can actually jump to the live vault.

536
00:50:53,374 --> 00:50:53,514
Yeah.

537
00:50:53,693 --> 00:50:55,894
What do you say to people who would say humanity is...

538
00:50:55,894 --> 00:50:57,133
I'm sorry, go ahead, Lucas.

539
00:50:57,133 --> 00:51:02,974
what would you say to people who would say humanity is a revolt against nature and that

540
00:51:02,974 --> 00:51:08,494
the coldness of the universe is exactly what like the promethean aspect of humanity is always

541
00:51:08,494 --> 00:51:14,753
fighting against and so that the universe blinking at us and saying you know you will die unless you

542
00:51:14,753 --> 00:51:22,374
are engaged in you know some sort of sort of way to stave off the entropy that i'm constantly

543
00:51:22,374 --> 00:51:27,673
shuffling onto you. And then humanity was trying to find ways to say, no, that's not the case. And

544
00:51:27,673 --> 00:51:31,434
then people could say the labor movement is one of those ways we've done that through unions,

545
00:51:31,553 --> 00:51:37,394
people unionizing for the 40 hour work week for conditions on work. Um, that is probably

546
00:51:37,394 --> 00:51:42,874
involves things like pay for time. So I just want to push you on that is, is it an inherently

547
00:51:42,874 --> 00:51:49,113
libertarian or anarchic view? Um, do you want us to have to have an inherently libertarian or

548
00:51:49,113 --> 00:51:55,613
anarchic view in order to totally embrace like the the bitcoin network and what it stands for

549
00:51:55,613 --> 00:52:02,854
as far as instant settlement and what that'll do to transform work if that makes sense uh i i

550
00:52:02,854 --> 00:52:10,894
wouldn't use labels at all i want to go with libertarian again i don't care and how jason

551
00:52:10,894 --> 00:52:17,154
larry describes his thesis he starts with nature nature is not asking he is trying to observe and

552
00:52:17,154 --> 00:52:25,834
explain in terms that are understandable but he's not imposing some vision on the universe and says

553
00:52:25,834 --> 00:52:33,693
oh universe you're wrong so you have to comply to my thoughts and like universe is

554
00:52:33,693 --> 00:52:42,073
it just is like it's not asking is dependent on us to understand it so we can optimize some stuff

555
00:52:42,073 --> 00:52:49,553
But when we do split payments and what I'm suggesting, we're going back to, okay, what works.

556
00:52:49,894 --> 00:52:52,673
And labor unions are again with this bounty.

557
00:52:52,974 --> 00:52:54,613
It's trying to get stuck.

558
00:52:54,934 --> 00:53:01,374
So we are cooperating on one level, but the adversarial is not fixed.

559
00:53:01,814 --> 00:53:04,894
The adversity is not fixed on all levels.

560
00:53:04,894 --> 00:53:13,133
Like you're unionizing to be a bigger group against the supervisors, against somebody else.

561
00:53:14,414 --> 00:53:18,974
That thing that we are against, that is the thing that I want to abolish.

562
00:53:19,233 --> 00:53:21,033
I want to be one humanity.

563
00:53:21,354 --> 00:53:26,613
Like I don't want to be separate entities and we fight between each other.

564
00:53:26,894 --> 00:53:33,994
Because imagine that creativity that we created central banks and we extract everything from so many people at the same time.

565
00:53:33,994 --> 00:53:42,093
what if we didn't do that but we cooperated and that energy was pointed at the thing that we wanted to achieve

566
00:53:42,093 --> 00:53:45,374
I think we were going to be on Mars already

567
00:53:45,374 --> 00:53:49,434
or whatever we wanted to do

568
00:53:49,434 --> 00:53:56,533
that the optimization that would happen in any industry

569
00:53:56,533 --> 00:54:00,273
in any human will be so much faster

570
00:54:00,273 --> 00:54:05,014
because, for example, the 2% inflation that they're giving us,

571
00:54:05,213 --> 00:54:07,733
this is getting us sick, but you can't measure that.

572
00:54:08,474 --> 00:54:11,654
And analogy would be with eating unhealthy.

573
00:54:11,654 --> 00:54:17,693
Like the biological system that is our human body

574
00:54:17,693 --> 00:54:20,874
is a very complex system and it can deal with that.

575
00:54:21,014 --> 00:54:28,713
So your body is having to deal with our brain being a different entity.

576
00:54:28,713 --> 00:54:36,693
don't eat junk so our body is some separate entity from our self and we have to what happens

577
00:54:36,693 --> 00:54:44,374
if they completely align that you actually eat what your body wants then your body optimizes and

578
00:54:44,374 --> 00:54:50,713
you go fight together logically emotionally and physically about what you want to achieve and you

579
00:54:50,713 --> 00:54:55,974
don't have to deal with this friction and this poison in the system and this is what's happening

580
00:54:55,974 --> 00:54:57,334
in humanity as a whole.

581
00:54:57,834 --> 00:55:01,314
Like some people are so preyed upon

582
00:55:01,314 --> 00:55:04,794
that they are trying to get stuck again

583
00:55:04,794 --> 00:55:07,553
with somebody else, with another entity

584
00:55:07,553 --> 00:55:10,033
so they can deal with that toxicity

585
00:55:10,033 --> 00:55:12,713
and that friction or whatever the case may be

586
00:55:12,713 --> 00:55:14,474
so they can survive.

587
00:55:14,874 --> 00:55:16,253
And that entropy is again,

588
00:55:16,934 --> 00:55:19,713
entropy is not asking for permission.

589
00:55:20,593 --> 00:55:22,113
Entropy just is.

590
00:55:22,494 --> 00:55:23,854
You have to deal with it,

591
00:55:23,914 --> 00:55:25,093
whether you like it or not.

592
00:55:25,093 --> 00:55:35,447
And that why everybody is throwing so much hate at Jason because he not saying some politically correct thing that oh let be nice to each other

593
00:55:37,007 --> 00:55:38,607
Nature just is.

594
00:55:39,167 --> 00:55:46,187
And that's why when he says war or warfare and people are like, oh, this is bad or whatever.

595
00:55:47,127 --> 00:55:48,327
No, it's not bad.

596
00:55:48,427 --> 00:55:49,087
It just is.

597
00:55:49,187 --> 00:55:50,167
It's a proper word.

598
00:55:50,327 --> 00:55:55,247
And that's why he switched to power projection just so he didn't want to deal with this.

599
00:55:55,247 --> 00:55:57,427
oh, I don't want to fight another enemy.

600
00:55:57,547 --> 00:56:01,827
I just want to say some stuff and people can view my point.

601
00:56:02,827 --> 00:56:04,607
But that's the whole thing.

602
00:56:05,327 --> 00:56:10,487
Again, if you're getting stuck together with some entity,

603
00:56:10,767 --> 00:56:14,047
that's a good step in the right direction.

604
00:56:14,267 --> 00:56:18,607
But my point is that let's be one humanity.

605
00:56:18,607 --> 00:56:23,867
Let's not be some separation tools with different borders,

606
00:56:23,867 --> 00:56:30,227
with different currencies, with different companies, with different chains, like anything.

607
00:56:30,687 --> 00:56:36,227
This segregation, separation is creating this, the analogy that I said,

608
00:56:36,587 --> 00:56:39,667
the body is completely detached from the brain.

609
00:56:41,247 --> 00:56:45,987
He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks.

610
00:56:46,187 --> 00:56:47,627
You quote Sun Tzu saying that.

611
00:56:47,747 --> 00:56:51,167
I think that's a really beautiful response there.

612
00:56:51,327 --> 00:56:51,987
Lucas, go ahead.

613
00:56:53,867 --> 00:57:06,667
Well, I wanted to go back to, I think, the question that Grant had was, you know, what if I just don't want to be the superstar?

614
00:57:06,907 --> 00:57:10,727
What if I'm just comfortable being, you know, who I am?

615
00:57:11,287 --> 00:57:21,847
And Ivan, I think you did a really good job of answering that question, which is to say that you actually don't have to be the .001%.

616
00:57:21,847 --> 00:57:31,287
there's still a lot of people at the top, even though percentage-wise it's a small amount.

617
00:57:32,247 --> 00:57:43,267
But in terms of people who put in the effort, those who are rewarded, that's a very high percentage.

618
00:57:43,267 --> 00:58:02,087
So if you do the things that is required to be a top 1% accountant, basketball player, author, etc., if you do those things, then your chance of achieving that, it's more than 1%.

619
00:58:02,087 --> 00:58:03,867
It's much, much, much higher.

620
00:58:05,947 --> 00:58:08,907
And there's just a lot of people.

621
00:58:08,907 --> 00:58:25,807
So there's eight, about 8 billion people. If you're the top 1% of whatever you're doing, that's still 80 million people. You know, that's still one quarter of the population of the United States.

622
00:58:25,807 --> 00:58:33,007
and I give the example when I was in college I used to go play pickup basketball and you know

623
00:58:33,007 --> 00:58:38,867
there's a number of us that would show up I stopped playing basketball competitively when I was in

624
00:58:38,867 --> 00:58:45,747
eighth grade there were a lot of guys that played through high school and they were starters on their

625
00:58:45,747 --> 00:58:54,547
team or they were stars on their team and we could play a good pickup game and it was competitive and

626
00:58:54,547 --> 00:59:01,167
and you wouldn't have been able to tell, unless you looked deeply,

627
00:59:01,587 --> 00:59:08,487
you wouldn't have been able to tell a huge difference between me and the guy who was a starter on the team.

628
00:59:08,887 --> 00:59:13,567
And you wouldn't have been able to tell a huge difference between the guy who was a starter on the team

629
00:59:13,567 --> 00:59:16,327
and a guy who was a star on their high school team.

630
00:59:16,327 --> 00:59:27,467
And then one day, this guy showed up, and we were shooting, and we were warming up, and I was just rebounding and throwing to people.

631
00:59:28,387 --> 00:59:33,047
And this guy went probably 15 minutes without missing a shot.

632
00:59:34,127 --> 00:59:38,007
Just swish, and not barely making them.

633
00:59:38,307 --> 00:59:44,027
Bottom of the net, perfect form, perfect shot every time, making every single shot.

634
00:59:44,027 --> 00:59:52,107
and we got to talking and he had played at a low level in college.

635
00:59:52,107 --> 01:00:00,607
He had been a starter and then he had played at a very, very low level in, I think, Europe.

636
01:00:01,407 --> 01:00:07,887
So he was, in terms of LeBron James, he wasn't there.

637
01:00:08,367 --> 01:00:10,447
He wasn't a starter on an NBA team.

638
01:00:10,667 --> 01:00:12,907
He wasn't in the D League in the NBA team.

639
01:00:12,907 --> 01:00:15,947
He wasn't a good player in the European League.

640
01:00:16,287 --> 01:00:18,507
He was riding the bench in the European League.

641
01:00:18,667 --> 01:00:24,207
He was, in terms of his life achievement, he was at the bottom.

642
01:00:24,887 --> 01:00:32,647
Yet the difference between him and the rest of us was such a gap that it was nearly impossible to measure.

643
01:00:33,247 --> 01:00:39,567
And it makes me think of, I remember hearing, I can't remember who exactly it was,

644
01:00:39,567 --> 01:00:52,327
but one of the UFC champions was on the Joe Rogan podcast, and he talked about learning Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu from Gracie.

645
01:00:52,447 --> 01:01:01,487
I forget the guy's first name, but Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, he's the Michael Jordan of Jiu-Jitsu.

646
01:01:02,527 --> 01:01:05,027
And so this guy is a highest degree black belt.

647
01:01:05,027 --> 01:01:14,127
he's a multiple chime UFC champion and he said that in three years of practicing and competing

648
01:01:14,127 --> 01:01:22,087
against Gracie he never scored a single point not only did he not he not not ever beat him

649
01:01:22,087 --> 01:01:28,287
he just he never scored a single point against this guy these are both champions this guy is

650
01:01:28,287 --> 01:01:34,447
better than everybody in the world except for this guy and this guy is so much better that he

651
01:01:34,447 --> 01:01:44,527
can't even score one point. And so I think that, I think it's revealing most of us will never

652
01:01:44,527 --> 01:01:53,707
witness mastery. And if we do, it will be so rare to us that it looks very foreign and it seems

653
01:01:53,707 --> 01:02:01,367
freakish and it seems absurd, but even low levels of mastery, even the guy who was the

654
01:02:01,367 --> 01:02:10,587
riding the bench on the D League in Europe, that type of mastery is so much higher than what we

655
01:02:10,587 --> 01:02:18,567
typically think of as good. I play guitar. I'm not a guitarist. There are people that are so

656
01:02:18,567 --> 01:02:25,647
much better than me that it is hard to imagine. And I think that that really speaks to your point

657
01:02:25,647 --> 01:02:33,907
of I don't know if we're really aware of just how much decay of our competitive nature,

658
01:02:33,907 --> 01:02:41,527
how much decay of our desire to strive for greatness and mastery has occurred throughout

659
01:02:41,527 --> 01:02:42,187
the years.

660
01:02:42,427 --> 01:02:50,207
Because we are now at a point where mastery is something that is so rare that it's hard

661
01:02:50,207 --> 01:02:57,107
to recognize when we see it because it is so foreign to what we're used to seeing that mediocrity

662
01:02:57,107 --> 01:03:05,707
has become so accepted mediocrity has not just become accepted it's been promoted as the way

663
01:03:05,707 --> 01:03:13,747
this is the way that your boss at the uh at the at the facility that you worked at

664
01:03:13,747 --> 01:03:20,187
that that person was trying to promote to you this is the way that my boss at my old job

665
01:03:20,787 --> 01:03:22,887
I tried to automate some processes.

666
01:03:23,427 --> 01:03:26,287
I literally just wanted to automate some processes

667
01:03:26,287 --> 01:03:30,367
so that instead of my assistant taking three hours a day to do it,

668
01:03:30,667 --> 01:03:33,247
I could press a button and it could be done in three seconds.

669
01:03:33,967 --> 01:03:38,167
And after three meetings that lasted hours,

670
01:03:38,507 --> 01:03:41,007
I was told that we're not allowed to do this

671
01:03:41,007 --> 01:03:46,307
because what is that person going to do if you automate her job?

672
01:03:46,307 --> 01:03:49,967
and the thing that we don't realize

673
01:03:49,967 --> 01:03:53,067
is that we've been automating jobs since the beginning

674
01:03:53,067 --> 01:03:56,427
we've outsourced things to tools

675
01:03:56,427 --> 01:03:58,507
we've outsourced things to technology

676
01:03:58,507 --> 01:04:02,987
and just because there's nobody delivering milk to your door now

677
01:04:02,987 --> 01:04:04,447
because you have a refrigerator

678
01:04:04,447 --> 01:04:08,207
doesn't mean that that entire class of human

679
01:04:08,207 --> 01:04:11,887
that did the job of milk delivery man is extinct

680
01:04:11,887 --> 01:04:16,207
that person was able to level up

681
01:04:16,207 --> 01:04:22,167
was able to move in a different direction, was able to benefit society with greater leverage

682
01:04:22,167 --> 01:04:27,907
by moving into either a more creative or some sort of other more productive act.

683
01:04:29,467 --> 01:04:39,087
So I'm going to agree with you, Ivan, that I think we move into an era that is relatively more abundant.

684
01:04:39,307 --> 01:04:42,607
I don't think not just relatively, I think absolutely more abundant.

685
01:04:42,607 --> 01:04:53,527
But I do believe the caveat is that we are still going to see the difference between the top and the bottom.

686
01:04:54,027 --> 01:04:55,727
And I think it will be more pronounced.

687
01:04:55,727 --> 01:05:19,367
I think it will be more clear because we'll no longer be muddying the difference of mediocrity and mastery, of lethargy and vigor by putting everyone into the same sort of cattle call of employment.

688
01:05:19,367 --> 01:05:23,447
a great example by the way

689
01:05:23,447 --> 01:05:25,027
and you noted this

690
01:05:25,027 --> 01:05:29,407
you intentionally chose to attack my own work ethic

691
01:05:29,407 --> 01:05:33,167
by making sure that you complimented Grant's

692
01:05:33,167 --> 01:05:34,487
which was the right thing

693
01:05:34,487 --> 01:05:39,827
I was witness to that

694
01:05:39,827 --> 01:05:45,667
Grant and I lived together for about three months

695
01:05:45,667 --> 01:05:48,867
and in that three months there was one day

696
01:05:49,467 --> 01:05:54,327
so let's say 90 days, there was one day that he did not work at all.

697
01:05:55,247 --> 01:06:00,987
And there was 89 days that he worked at least six hours.

698
01:06:00,987 --> 01:06:06,347
And then there was about 85 days that he worked at least 12 hours.

699
01:06:07,227 --> 01:06:13,747
And so he was getting paid the same wage as the people who showed up eight to five,

700
01:06:14,187 --> 01:06:15,927
checked out, were done.

701
01:06:15,927 --> 01:06:20,507
and the results were massively different.

702
01:06:21,887 --> 01:06:23,627
I shouldn't speak for Grant,

703
01:06:23,727 --> 01:06:28,267
but I will say that he was definitely an outlier

704
01:06:28,267 --> 01:06:29,827
at his old employer.

705
01:06:30,547 --> 01:06:32,347
I'm not going to say that he wasn't liked

706
01:06:32,347 --> 01:06:34,627
because Grant is an inherently likable person.

707
01:06:36,287 --> 01:06:40,107
But yeah, sometimes people don't like to be made.

708
01:06:40,347 --> 01:06:42,327
They don't like to look bad.

709
01:06:42,327 --> 01:06:47,147
They don't like to, they would rather drag others down than rise up.

710
01:06:48,307 --> 01:06:50,627
And that's an instinct.

711
01:06:51,247 --> 01:06:57,007
I don't think that it is something negative about human nature.

712
01:06:57,447 --> 01:07:10,587
I think that it's a fear-based instinct that has been drilled into us, where previously, when we're living by the laws of nature, we simply see cause and effect.

713
01:07:10,587 --> 01:07:14,787
We simply see this person puts in more effort and they get more reward.

714
01:07:15,587 --> 01:07:16,467
Now I've learned.

715
01:07:16,587 --> 01:07:18,707
If I put in more effort, I'll get more reward.

716
01:07:19,947 --> 01:07:30,347
And so I do think that the mechanism of how we pay people, and it's so insightful to be able to draw that back to fiat,

717
01:07:31,027 --> 01:07:40,267
that fiat creates not just inflation, not just waste here and there, but it creates a fiat mindset.

718
01:07:40,587 --> 01:07:49,727
A decay of moral application of behavior and a decay of effort and a decay of pushing forward into greatness.

719
01:07:49,727 --> 01:08:11,367
So, again, it's insightful what we're able to draw from fiat and how it affects society, not just on the surface level, but throughout all levels and throughout the mindset and the psyche of an entire population of 8 billion people.

720
01:08:12,807 --> 01:08:17,387
Two comments and then I have some suggestions for you guys.

721
01:08:17,827 --> 01:08:19,467
Maybe you'll like them.

722
01:08:19,727 --> 01:08:34,527
But the first thing about mastery is one thing that I also kind of had a grasp after I wrote the series is that everybody is trying to capture success.

723
01:08:34,527 --> 01:08:38,447
But when you capture success, also success captures you.

724
01:08:38,927 --> 01:08:44,547
Because going back to Messi, because he is the best at this,

725
01:08:45,087 --> 01:08:50,927
he can give to the world something that we didn't expect, we appreciated.

726
01:08:51,347 --> 01:08:55,547
But that thing means that he cannot pursue anything else.

727
01:08:55,987 --> 01:08:57,987
So that success also captures you.

728
01:08:57,987 --> 01:09:12,067
And that is why the biggest difference between even the second and the first in a lot of the times, because they are completely obsessed about this one thing.

729
01:09:12,067 --> 01:09:21,167
And it's, again, not trying, going back to my warehouse example, that they deleted so many other stuff.

730
01:09:21,687 --> 01:09:34,627
And if, let's say, you get them out of that environment, they are probably very bad at a lot of stuff because they optimized everything around that one thing.

731
01:09:34,767 --> 01:09:41,247
And they can be good in a lot of things, but they need to be related to that one mastery thing that they chose.

732
01:09:41,247 --> 01:10:00,307
But if you ask those mastery people, I think most of them are happy with their life because they decided to stick to this because you don't get mastery in a class in a few months.

733
01:10:00,807 --> 01:10:03,347
They said, I'm going to master this.

734
01:10:03,487 --> 01:10:06,827
And that takes a lot of the times decades.

735
01:10:06,827 --> 01:10:14,747
and if you stick through all that pain and suffering and struggle i think most of them

736
01:10:14,747 --> 01:10:20,647
are happy they may have problems in other areas but that's again emphasizing this first point

737
01:10:20,647 --> 01:10:28,187
and the other thing that you mentioned about optimizing for your colleague to do her job in

738
01:10:28,187 --> 01:10:34,207
three seconds if i was there i wasn't going to ask for permission because then i was going to do

739
01:10:34,207 --> 01:10:41,347
that process i would click three a few buttons do it in three seconds and i leave it to the employer

740
01:10:41,347 --> 01:10:50,287
and now he has to be the idiot of not using it because previously uh what you said people that

741
01:10:50,287 --> 01:10:57,127
are weak don't want to be told told that people that are weak would tell you you are too strong

742
01:10:57,127 --> 01:11:03,887
i don't want you to be too strong it's like the zebra saying all to the lion like don't eat me

743
01:11:03,887 --> 01:11:11,807
you're too strong i don't have clothes or whatever like nature does not ask permission but in our

744
01:11:12,607 --> 01:11:22,367
um very developed brain we have these abstractional things that we the the logic uh is sometimes

745
01:11:22,367 --> 01:11:31,087
completely against nature because we think too much but uh it's really a cancer to the system uh

746
01:11:31,087 --> 01:11:38,367
the whole thing is that if you want to be the best and you did let's say that optimization and

747
01:11:38,367 --> 01:11:44,447
she didn't have anything to do this will be the forcing function of the universe saying

748
01:11:45,327 --> 01:11:53,247
you either adapt or die and that is not present in the labor market in so many ways you just gave

749
01:11:53,247 --> 01:12:00,487
one example but I was doing this for a few companies also like I optimized

750
01:12:00,487 --> 01:12:04,647
everything for my department and there was nothing else and I still had free

751
01:12:04,647 --> 01:12:09,507
time because the person before me did my job and didn't have any time I

752
01:12:09,507 --> 01:12:14,847
optimized everything and I had four hours of free time every single day and

753
01:12:14,847 --> 01:12:20,727
then I went into every other department in the company and I optimized their

754
01:12:20,727 --> 01:12:27,027
stuff like who the hell does that and I optimized this I gave them the solution

755
01:12:27,027 --> 01:12:33,927
and I gave it not to the people that were working but to the owner and it was

756
01:12:33,927 --> 01:12:40,527
his choice like sometimes he was pampering to those employers all they

757
01:12:40,527 --> 01:12:46,947
need to do look this is completely logical adapter die is nature's way if

758
01:12:46,947 --> 01:12:48,807
If you don't adapt, you just die.

759
01:12:49,387 --> 01:12:55,307
And again, you don't have to adapt to the highest of the highest of the highest level.

760
01:12:55,307 --> 01:13:03,107
But if you choose to be weak and become weaker and weaker in nature,

761
01:13:03,907 --> 01:13:07,967
like says, okay, you're not part of our herd.

762
01:13:08,447 --> 01:13:14,307
And when a liar goes after gazelles, he does not chase the best running one.

763
01:13:14,307 --> 01:13:20,907
He chases the one that is the weakest, the one that needs to get out of that herd.

764
01:13:21,307 --> 01:13:25,767
And that is also how the whole team of gazelles gets better.

765
01:13:26,327 --> 01:13:30,727
Their genes that are the best get propagated and that's nature.

766
01:13:31,287 --> 01:13:35,067
Why does this thing does not happen in the labor market?

767
01:13:35,767 --> 01:13:38,047
Our smart brain is preventing it.

768
01:13:38,047 --> 01:13:47,227
our fiat system is an abstraction uh and it's just so many disconnections from the world so

769
01:13:47,227 --> 01:13:54,027
many disconnections between each other and those are again second and third order effects i'll let

770
01:13:54,027 --> 01:14:05,747
you comment and then i i'll tell the few examples if you like i would say adapt or die so it's first

771
01:14:05,747 --> 01:14:10,167
of all, it's a pleasure to talk with you. Lucas mentioned this by text after our last conversation.

772
01:14:10,167 --> 01:14:16,287
You have such a good grip on Jason's softwar thesis that that distinction between abstract

773
01:14:16,287 --> 01:14:21,147
and real power runs through a lot of your discussion. And so it's a pleasure to talk

774
01:14:21,147 --> 01:14:27,707
to you about that. I kind of, in putting forward the abstract power point of view to push you,

775
01:14:28,147 --> 01:14:33,747
I see where you're coming from falling back on, not falling back on, but emphasizing nature as

776
01:14:33,747 --> 01:14:39,367
the settlement layer for all of us and that it's unavoidable. And, you know, your analogies,

777
01:14:39,507 --> 01:14:44,827
of course, with the lion and the zebra, they hit very much home even in our day-to-day lives.

778
01:14:46,207 --> 01:14:52,467
And we definitely should not encourage weakness. Having said all of that, I will say maybe the

779
01:14:52,467 --> 01:14:59,567
human adaptation though, the human, so, I mean, part of Lowry's thesis is the metaphor of antlers

780
01:14:59,567 --> 01:15:04,627
as how the deer evolved a technique

781
01:15:04,627 --> 01:15:07,207
so that they could do power projection contests

782
01:15:07,207 --> 01:15:11,227
to settle intra-hierarchy disputes over resources

783
01:15:11,227 --> 01:15:13,107
so that the group could work together

784
01:15:13,107 --> 01:15:19,167
and yet settle disputes in a kinetic but non-harmful sort of way.

785
01:15:19,687 --> 01:15:22,087
And so then Bitcoin, as an analogy to that,

786
01:15:22,167 --> 01:15:24,627
that's also going to be a way that we can use energy

787
01:15:24,627 --> 01:15:27,447
to settle disputes in cyberspace, but in a non-harmful way.

788
01:15:27,547 --> 01:15:28,347
It's human antlers.

789
01:15:28,347 --> 01:15:36,087
but what if human antlers in some sense is our ability to use consciousness to create and mediate

790
01:15:36,087 --> 01:15:41,047
our relations through abstractions i mean that's kind of a challenge to to jason's thesis because

791
01:15:41,047 --> 01:15:48,007
he i mean is with you 100 that abstract thinking always needs to be disciplined with real power

792
01:15:48,007 --> 01:15:55,167
but there's something about the the nature of reflexive human consciousness is such an innovation

793
01:15:55,167 --> 01:16:16,307
It goes beyond merely the power to think abstractly, but includes this really in-depth engagement experientially with our surroundings and with other human beings, our ability to model other human beings modeling us, that sort of telescoping, reflexive consciousness.

794
01:16:16,307 --> 01:16:31,947
And so that's going a bit far, and this is more maybe a critique of the software thesis in downplaying what the nature of abstract thinking truly is in its fullest form and the power of that, and maybe that that itself could be human antlers.

795
01:16:31,947 --> 01:16:56,327
But because you have read the thesis and because it is a pleasure to hear somebody who has engaged with it in that way, I want to, if that makes sense, the question is, can abstract thinking itself be that evolved human antlers, be that way that we mediate our future relations because we develop a sort of empathy tunnel in the way that we can model other people modeling us?

796
01:16:56,607 --> 01:16:57,887
Can that be human antlers?

797
01:16:57,887 --> 01:17:08,047
uh yeah i would say it definitely is and uh the whole thing is that even a zebra can kill a lion

798
01:17:09,087 --> 01:17:17,167
for example but it's in the domain of not fighting with claws it just needs to run away that is the

799
01:17:17,167 --> 01:17:25,967
domain like the weaker seemingly weaker uh opponent can also kill somebody stronger uh but

800
01:17:25,967 --> 01:17:28,727
but be in that domain.

801
01:17:29,487 --> 01:17:31,647
Our abstraction of thinking,

802
01:17:32,487 --> 01:17:34,647
I think it's remarkable

803
01:17:34,647 --> 01:17:37,887
and we were not going to fight entropy so well

804
01:17:37,887 --> 01:17:39,087
if we didn't have it,

805
01:17:39,187 --> 01:17:40,967
if we didn't have our smart brain.

806
01:17:40,967 --> 01:17:43,547
But I am trying to point out,

807
01:17:43,647 --> 01:17:45,827
are we using it to chase the bottom

808
01:17:45,827 --> 01:17:48,247
or are we using it to chase the top?

809
01:17:48,807 --> 01:17:52,407
Because there are two completely different outcomes at the end.

810
01:17:52,407 --> 01:18:05,047
Because if we're trying to, oh, don't get fight, oh, don't be a competition, go sit down lazy on the couch, click the remote, like this is chasing the bottom.

811
01:18:05,307 --> 01:18:06,287
And that's the whole thing.

812
01:18:06,507 --> 01:18:18,067
And at some point, when our whole collective society and humanity becomes so weak that the whole system breaks down because the entropy is not going to ask us, do you want to die?

813
01:18:18,067 --> 01:18:23,287
is going to give us the problem and we either fight against it or we die.

814
01:18:23,687 --> 01:18:28,767
So that is what I'm trying to say because the abstraction thing is extremely important

815
01:18:28,767 --> 01:18:34,867
and that is tying it back to my split payment thinking and that getting stuck together

816
01:18:34,867 --> 01:18:41,287
because I can even show it right now that currently, for example,

817
01:18:41,287 --> 01:18:44,367
we are using this subtractional layer of talking.

818
01:18:44,367 --> 01:18:53,167
but let's say if i do this uh lucas he grant no harassment podcaster going to stand properly

819
01:18:53,167 --> 01:19:01,247
so what did i say do you know was that english no okay and

820
01:19:01,247 --> 01:19:11,087
yeah so that is my point i was still using this abstractional layer of talking but i

821
01:19:11,087 --> 01:19:15,347
said a sentence that disconnected us.

822
01:19:15,867 --> 01:19:21,167
So I was going against connecting us and using it in a more beneficial way.

823
01:19:21,307 --> 01:19:25,607
So how you use this abstraction layer is important.

824
01:19:26,407 --> 01:19:31,847
It's not only that you have it because you can misuse it in a very bad way

825
01:19:31,847 --> 01:19:39,067
that will lead to the physical stuff going the wrong way also.

826
01:19:39,067 --> 01:19:47,407
So I said, for example, that I really like the podcast that you did and that you are doing currently.

827
01:19:48,067 --> 01:19:57,407
But if I say it in a language that you don't understand, yeah, I'm using my abstraction layer, but does it matter?

828
01:19:57,727 --> 01:19:58,207
Not really.

829
01:19:58,607 --> 01:20:02,607
If I talk with some countrymen, it matters.

830
01:20:03,047 --> 01:20:05,447
But in this example, it doesn't.

831
01:20:05,447 --> 01:20:09,147
So that's what I would say that, yeah, let's pamper.

832
01:20:09,367 --> 01:20:14,467
Oh, let's include some people that are weak and minority and whatever.

833
01:20:15,047 --> 01:20:23,847
Like it kind of has some logic to it, but is it really the best way to use this?

834
01:20:23,847 --> 01:20:31,287
or we can figure out a way to increase the skills of those people to put those people where they are

835
01:20:31,287 --> 01:20:40,167
actually valuable and not bringing the whole system uh chasing to the bottom uh and because

836
01:20:40,167 --> 01:20:48,167
uh to have even more examples for people that are going to read the essay series it's perfectly

837
01:20:48,167 --> 01:20:55,527
fine to do this mental gymnastics or what i did but what i care out of those articles and that's

838
01:20:55,527 --> 01:21:03,287
why i'm pushing people apply it in the real world just talking about it really doesn't matter and

839
01:21:04,087 --> 01:21:11,687
to make it even more clear to both of you right now i think you tapped into some very interesting

840
01:21:11,687 --> 01:21:18,487
dynamic that you're reading essays, you're reading books. And I was thinking, what if you apply this?

841
01:21:19,107 --> 01:21:26,247
You put in a little website or page or whatever, and you say, what should be the next book that we

842
01:21:26,247 --> 01:21:32,987
read? And people vote with their set what you actually read. This is doable. This is applicable.

843
01:21:32,987 --> 01:21:39,867
And when people donate, you decide, okay, we'll split it between us. You can automate all of that.

844
01:21:39,867 --> 01:21:43,087
how are you going to do this in the fiat system?

845
01:21:43,587 --> 01:21:48,427
You really can't in a very easy way.

846
01:21:48,427 --> 01:21:54,887
It will take so much effort and so much struggle to set up that thing with cards,

847
01:21:55,067 --> 01:21:57,487
with the platform, with the Lightning Network.

848
01:21:58,027 --> 01:22:03,247
Yeah, you might need some coding skills, but I think you can do it even without.

849
01:22:03,887 --> 01:22:06,887
But it's the barrier of entry, of doing this.

850
01:22:07,207 --> 01:22:08,587
It's really simple.

851
01:22:08,587 --> 01:22:12,267
And now you have complete autonomy and you start small.

852
01:22:12,687 --> 01:22:14,407
You don't start at the highest level.

853
01:22:14,807 --> 01:22:22,467
But if this thing is a real valuable thing in the market, you just need to start optimizing that.

854
01:22:22,927 --> 01:22:26,247
And you'll get some stats flowing to you this way.

855
01:22:26,467 --> 01:22:32,747
And at some point, if that is really, really valuable, it will outplace the things that you're currently doing.

856
01:22:33,487 --> 01:22:37,947
So, yeah, just an example that you can test.

857
01:22:37,947 --> 01:22:46,187
And the other thing that I think is second and third order consequences about instant settlement split payment.

858
01:22:46,807 --> 01:22:54,127
And Grant, this is more of your area about laws and lawyering stuff.

859
01:22:54,807 --> 01:23:07,787
What happens, let's say, if I am a customer in a restaurant and that server serves me the chef, all the people that are employees in that restaurant, and I pay the dish.

860
01:23:07,947 --> 01:23:27,260
Everybody receives a split payment and now nobody is actually an employee A company is not paying them the client pays them So that will completely reshape our fiat contracts that are going to be shown that they are very

861
01:23:27,260 --> 01:23:28,780
dumb contracts.

862
01:23:29,080 --> 01:23:33,240
And the thing that we call smart contracts, it's really a script.

863
01:23:35,001 --> 01:23:39,360
I don't like the word smart contract because it's really a dumb program.

864
01:23:39,360 --> 01:23:41,960
but what happens there

865
01:23:41,960 --> 01:23:43,980
the fiat laws

866
01:23:43,980 --> 01:23:45,120
are not prepared

867
01:23:45,120 --> 01:23:47,720
with their logic

868
01:23:47,720 --> 01:23:49,380
we can exploit

869
01:23:49,380 --> 01:23:51,180
the fiat logic

870
01:23:51,180 --> 01:23:53,520
what Jason Larry is also

871
01:23:53,520 --> 01:23:54,460
talking about

872
01:23:54,460 --> 01:23:57,420
we can exploit the laws logic

873
01:23:57,420 --> 01:23:58,220
because of this

874
01:23:58,220 --> 01:23:59,520
what happens again

875
01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:00,920
another example for

876
01:24:00,920 --> 01:24:03,660
lawyers and stuff like that

877
01:24:03,660 --> 01:24:05,580
everybody is afraid

878
01:24:05,580 --> 01:24:07,760
of receiving SATs

879
01:24:07,760 --> 01:24:14,560
and things like that because of taxes and regulations and stuff like that but anybody

880
01:24:14,560 --> 01:24:23,280
can actually create a loyalty point and i don't know in america but in my country you have plastic

881
01:24:23,280 --> 01:24:29,200
cards of loyalty programs for everything now everybody wants to addict you to their numbers

882
01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:38,480
and that's again one of my other articles but why not that digit not to be any digit that you print

883
01:24:38,480 --> 01:24:48,800
for your franchise but it is sats or millisats or and now you can exploit that logic oh i'm going

884
01:24:48,800 --> 01:24:55,600
to create a loyalty program that you receive sats with this and discounts and you completely plug

885
01:24:55,600 --> 01:25:02,340
into this new system and you defend it by the logic of the current laws that oh i'm not paying

886
01:25:02,340 --> 01:25:09,060
in cryptocurrency i'm paying in a token that is loyalty digit like i don't know i'm not the best

887
01:25:09,060 --> 01:25:15,880
one to be asked but those are just some of the examples that we can apply currently in our world

888
01:25:15,880 --> 01:25:20,800
today and that's what i want to do that's incredibly interesting and also it's just really

889
01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:26,080
humbling is not the right word but thank you for thinking about our podcasts and how we could do

890
01:25:26,080 --> 01:25:29,760
things i just really i like that you applied your professional thinking and gave us some suggestions

891
01:25:29,760 --> 01:25:36,320
really appreciate that on the on the kind of the restaurant example and another interesting thing

892
01:25:36,320 --> 01:25:41,800
along with loyalty points is if they trump has talked about in the united states not taxing

893
01:25:41,800 --> 01:25:48,280
tips and so the more that you can use some sort of tipping structure to get yourself paid in some

894
01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:53,040
way maybe you can take advantage of that so if there's i don't know what the eventual law is going

895
01:25:53,040 --> 01:25:58,560
to look like as far as exempting tips from taxation but to the extent the lightning network can enable

896
01:25:58,560 --> 01:26:03,520
a broader conception of tipping that would be an interesting thing along with loyalty points like

897
01:26:03,520 --> 01:26:08,640
you mentioned so it's that's yeah that's really it interplays in a complex fashion with the nation's

898
01:26:08,640 --> 01:26:14,420
laws but also wherever whatever nation you're in i mean a more fair and equitable way to pay people

899
01:26:14,420 --> 01:26:23,600
for sure yeah i want to emphasize maybe i wasn't exactly clear but i wasn't talking about tips only

900
01:26:23,600 --> 01:26:28,680
i was talking about your paying for your dish without the tip and everybody receives a split

901
01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:34,120
payment that created that dish or on that particular shift in the restaurant and the

902
01:26:34,120 --> 01:26:41,660
dynamic is that why do you tax people that are employed that is centralizing force that you're

903
01:26:41,660 --> 01:26:49,820
tax through the company. Right now, nobody actually works for a company. We are a team and we receive

904
01:26:49,820 --> 01:26:58,860
a benefit. I work for the client. I don't work for a company. So what happens if I don't receive

905
01:26:58,860 --> 01:27:05,040
money from a company, but I receive it from individual people? Does that mean that we're

906
01:27:05,040 --> 01:27:12,080
each individual companies like i'm saying the logic of the fiat contract structures with

907
01:27:12,080 --> 01:27:19,840
employment completely can change in uh the world that i'm saying it's not ready to handle it and we

908
01:27:19,840 --> 01:27:29,280
can uh exploit building those types of solutions in the bug of the fiat laws and i think we should

909
01:27:29,280 --> 01:27:33,520
do that because they are exploiting the bug of printing money for themselves

910
01:27:36,080 --> 01:27:43,120
yeah yeah with the uh the restaurant example is interesting i i'll comment on the tips thing just

911
01:27:43,120 --> 01:27:49,440
because i've been a server before and i will say that um whether or not tax whether or not tips are

912
01:27:49,440 --> 01:27:56,880
taxed um doesn't really affect much because uh that is a largely ignored law anyways in fact i

913
01:27:56,880 --> 01:28:05,080
At my very first job when I was a server, I was taught you get paid like $3 an hour.

914
01:28:05,280 --> 01:28:09,340
You get paid under minimum wage, and then you have to report your tips.

915
01:28:10,880 --> 01:28:14,460
And so I was just taught, hey, you're getting paid $3 an hour.

916
01:28:14,660 --> 01:28:16,120
Minimum wage is $6.50.

917
01:28:16,560 --> 01:28:22,720
So you make $3.50 worth of tips per hour for every hour that you work.

918
01:28:22,900 --> 01:28:24,280
We just want you to know that.

919
01:28:24,280 --> 01:28:26,680
However much you put in your pocket, we don't care.

920
01:28:26,880 --> 01:28:28,580
But this is how much you report.

921
01:28:28,580 --> 01:28:39,960
I would say that what we're seeing now with any sort of proposed legislation is merely legislators trying to get in front of falling behind the times.

922
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:50,880
And finally acknowledging that they don't have the authority to put anything on top of that.

923
01:28:51,260 --> 01:28:56,300
With digital payments, however, that has become something that is much more easily tracked.

924
01:28:56,880 --> 01:29:00,260
And I do like, again, so the restaurant example.

925
01:29:01,060 --> 01:29:08,600
So I sit down and I have a meal and this food shows up and it's burnt or it's undercooked or whatever.

926
01:29:09,340 --> 01:29:13,860
Or it shows up 20 minutes late and I'm angry and I'm upset.

927
01:29:14,560 --> 01:29:22,760
One of the things that happens in the hospitality industry is that the server always blames somebody else because the cook is clear in the back.

928
01:29:23,320 --> 01:29:25,300
The manager is clear in the back.

929
01:29:25,300 --> 01:29:31,140
The cashier is clear. You're not going to see them, but I'm the one talking to you.

930
01:29:31,520 --> 01:29:40,300
And so my goal is to make sure that you and I have a good relationship because I need you to tip me because that's what's going to make money in my pocket.

931
01:29:40,940 --> 01:29:49,660
If you give me nothing or if you give me $100, that makes zero difference to the chef or the cook.

932
01:29:49,660 --> 01:30:03,400
But again, if we're all getting paid a certain percentage of the final bill, then we're all encouraged to, as you walk in, the hostess greets you with an actual smile, not a fake one.

933
01:30:03,400 --> 01:30:22,001
And they do a good job of trying to make sure that you're pleased with where you're sitting instead of just grabbing a couple menus and turning around and walking away and assuming that you're going to follow them and then throwing the menus on the table and saying, somebody will be here to get your drink order, et cetera, et cetera.

934
01:30:22,160 --> 01:30:27,960
So it does, it puts us all on the same table, team, team, it moves us all in the same direction.

935
01:30:27,960 --> 01:30:33,760
going back to something we talked about a little earlier that I wanted to just uh

936
01:30:33,760 --> 01:30:41,060
talking about how basically nature doesn't care nature doesn't care um if you don't want to put

937
01:30:41,060 --> 01:30:46,360
in effort nature doesn't care if you don't want to be the best it's going to assign a hierarchy

938
01:30:46,360 --> 01:30:53,140
and it is going to assign that hierarchy based on merit based on effort based on power um

939
01:30:53,140 --> 01:31:01,700
And one of my favorite, probably my favorite thing that I've ever heard Jason Lowry say is technology does not negotiate.

940
01:31:02,480 --> 01:31:07,001
And that is in reference to, you know, what if we don't want to adopt Bitcoin?

941
01:31:07,300 --> 01:31:10,020
What if we don't want to have nuclear weapons?

942
01:31:10,220 --> 01:31:13,020
What if we don't want to have encrypted technology?

943
01:31:13,540 --> 01:31:15,520
It doesn't matter what you want.

944
01:31:16,180 --> 01:31:17,980
Technology does not negotiate.

945
01:31:18,460 --> 01:31:21,420
And technology is an extension of nature.

946
01:31:21,420 --> 01:31:31,620
The antlers on the deer are a form of natural technology that developed in order to aid in these power projection competitions.

947
01:31:32,760 --> 01:31:34,660
And it does not negotiate.

948
01:31:34,900 --> 01:31:36,560
It does not care what you want.

949
01:31:38,001 --> 01:31:42,060
One comment is technology is part of nature.

950
01:31:42,060 --> 01:31:44,320
And why does not negotiate?

951
01:31:44,780 --> 01:31:50,740
The universe does not negotiate because there is no obstructional layer on it.

952
01:31:51,420 --> 01:31:52,800
It just is.

953
01:31:53,040 --> 01:31:56,180
We have abstractions, all sorts of them.

954
01:31:56,960 --> 01:31:57,640
It's agnostic.

955
01:31:58,240 --> 01:31:58,460
Yeah.

956
01:31:58,940 --> 01:32:01,800
But technology is part of it.

957
01:32:01,800 --> 01:32:13,000
And how we use it as part of nature with our abstraction or thinking and putting all sorts of political things is completely different than what technology actually is.

958
01:32:13,280 --> 01:32:15,980
Technology is part of nature and it does not negotiate.

959
01:32:16,180 --> 01:32:16,920
It just is.

960
01:32:18,020 --> 01:32:18,180
Yeah.

961
01:32:18,180 --> 01:32:32,680
The other thing that I wanted to just throw out, because you triggered this quote in my mind, we're talking about the benefits of being master, the benefits of mastery and of applying yourself and rising to the top.

962
01:32:33,960 --> 01:32:44,380
Mark Yusko, who's a fantastic follow on Twitter, if you're interested, he's a hedge fund manager, et cetera, right?

963
01:32:44,380 --> 01:32:53,360
I'm very fond of saying that wealth is created through concentration and protected by diversification.

964
01:32:54,360 --> 01:33:06,160
And that aligns a lot with what you'll hear Michael Saylor talk about when he hears people, when he's presented with the idea of what is the proper allocation of Bitcoin?

965
01:33:06,500 --> 01:33:09,560
Is it 2%? Is it 1%, et cetera, et cetera?

966
01:33:09,560 --> 01:33:25,100
And if you say, is it 2%, then he says, okay, show me 49 ideas that are better than Bitcoin, and I'll only put 2% into Bitcoin, and then I'll put 2% into all of those other ones.

967
01:33:25,100 --> 01:33:32,720
But we currently have, for the first time in history, we currently have a best idea.

968
01:33:33,120 --> 01:33:35,460
We've never had a best idea before.

969
01:33:35,600 --> 01:33:38,340
We've always had competing good ideas.

970
01:33:38,820 --> 01:33:42,160
Real estate was a good idea until we overbuilt.

971
01:33:43,040 --> 01:33:50,580
Equities were a good idea until companies decided to go too far and become immoral and collapse.

972
01:33:51,340 --> 01:33:55,820
Stocks and bonds are a good idea at a certain time in a cycle.

973
01:33:56,680 --> 01:34:03,540
Venture capital is a good idea if you hit the one in 1,000 new companies that actually

974
01:34:03,540 --> 01:34:04,180
succeeds.

975
01:34:04,760 --> 01:34:12,320
These are all good ideas, but now it's like me on that basketball court with a professional

976
01:34:12,320 --> 01:34:13,340
basketball player.

977
01:34:13,660 --> 01:34:16,340
There is one clear best idea.

978
01:34:16,340 --> 01:34:18,060
There is one clear victor.

979
01:34:18,060 --> 01:34:29,880
And so we no longer like I think I think Saylor also says this like diversification is for people who are indecisive, who can't decide what they should pursue.

980
01:34:30,660 --> 01:34:41,180
And so when you do have the awareness and the conviction and the technology exists that there is a best thing, that is where you go with your time.

981
01:34:41,300 --> 01:34:44,240
That is where you go with your money, with your efforts toward mastery.

982
01:34:44,400 --> 01:34:46,280
So, yeah, I just wanted to comment on that.

983
01:34:46,280 --> 01:34:58,120
I love the idea that you gave us about, so the one thing that I don't like about that is that it creates what's called audience capture, right?

984
01:34:58,260 --> 01:35:01,820
Is that the audience then dictates what you want to do.

985
01:35:01,820 --> 01:35:24,160
And I think we've seen the most successful podcaster in the world, the most successful, I would say, sort of free thinker as far as people being interested in what he has to think is Joe Rogan, who very famously does not read any comments, does not listen to what people think about his show, does not care.

986
01:35:24,800 --> 01:35:30,460
Now, the difference is he's made it to a level where he doesn't have to care.

987
01:35:31,820 --> 01:35:59,040
The flip side of that, though, like what you're talking about, is there probably is some room to have a community that benefits us and gives us the opportunity to look into interesting things that we're probably not even aware of, that we've probably missed, that we've not looked at, that we've not been paying attention to.

988
01:35:59,040 --> 01:36:06,140
And I can see how if we had had that system set up, this website, you can vote with sats for what you want to discuss.

989
01:36:06,640 --> 01:36:19,760
I could very much see Ivan, the guy who used his own money to run promotional campaigns for a company that wasn't his, to get money for that company that wasn't going to benefit him.

990
01:36:19,760 --> 01:36:31,200
I can very much see someone like Ivan going on there and voting with his own sats in order to promote his own writing and say, look, this is worth looking at.

991
01:36:31,300 --> 01:36:32,320
This is worth reading.

992
01:36:32,760 --> 01:36:34,000
And this is worth discussing.

993
01:36:34,360 --> 01:36:35,740
And I know that it is.

994
01:36:35,860 --> 01:36:38,860
And I'm willing to put my own sats on the line.

995
01:36:38,960 --> 01:36:46,420
I'm willing to put my own earned income on the line in order to put that out there.

996
01:36:46,600 --> 01:36:48,460
So brilliant idea.

997
01:36:48,460 --> 01:36:51,660
I'm thinking about how to implement that

998
01:36:51,660 --> 01:36:52,620
I do think you're right

999
01:36:52,620 --> 01:36:54,800
I think there's some no-code ways to do that

1000
01:36:54,800 --> 01:36:57,360
using like Cursor

1001
01:36:57,360 --> 01:36:59,780
or using Windsurf or something like that

1002
01:36:59,780 --> 01:37:01,360
in order to code that

1003
01:37:01,360 --> 01:37:04,800
so thankfully I'm stuck around

1004
01:37:04,800 --> 01:37:07,620
about 100 high-performing developers

1005
01:37:07,620 --> 01:37:09,920
and perhaps I can come up with something

1006
01:37:09,920 --> 01:37:11,620
that will align with that

1007
01:37:11,620 --> 01:37:13,940
so I really appreciate that idea

1008
01:37:13,940 --> 01:37:14,960
that's a great suggestion

1009
01:37:14,960 --> 01:37:17,460
I wanted to talk about

1010
01:37:17,460 --> 01:37:22,420
because in the Bitcoin scene, I'm talking about the podcasting thing.

1011
01:37:23,140 --> 01:37:28,860
You tapped into this because it is, I think it is doable in your format.

1012
01:37:29,300 --> 01:37:36,300
Because if you apply this to inviting people, it's kind of not really doable

1013
01:37:36,300 --> 01:37:40,700
because you have to ask the person, then you have to negotiate

1014
01:37:40,700 --> 01:37:42,460
if they want to come on your podcast.

1015
01:37:42,640 --> 01:37:43,440
So it's not doable.

1016
01:37:43,440 --> 01:37:47,120
But you have autonomy on what you want to cover with the book.

1017
01:37:47,120 --> 01:37:48,280
So it's more doable.

1018
01:37:48,280 --> 01:38:01,320
And why I'm suggesting this because every single Bitcoin or podcast always talks about that if you get the content free, that means that you are the product.

1019
01:38:02,000 --> 01:38:06,440
And everybody starts with the audience being the client.

1020
01:38:07,160 --> 01:38:10,020
And at some point they start taking in sponsors.

1021
01:38:10,660 --> 01:38:15,280
And the thing that they criticize social media about, they are complete hypocrites.

1022
01:38:15,280 --> 01:38:23,920
hypocrites and they put on sponsors i kind of talked this into one of the essays about the

1023
01:38:23,920 --> 01:38:31,040
influencers that they bring in influencers that centralizes more and more that means they are

1024
01:38:31,040 --> 01:38:37,940
going to ask for exclusivity so you're cutting off the competition there is no competition if

1025
01:38:37,940 --> 01:38:43,120
you want exclusivity and the other thing is that if you will start paying to the best

1026
01:38:43,120 --> 01:38:50,300
influencers with high numbers, you're going to increase that barrier of entry of even sponsors

1027
01:38:50,300 --> 01:38:58,100
at all. So that's creating a centralization force more and more, and less and less podcasts will be

1028
01:38:58,100 --> 01:39:04,740
watched because of this. And at this point, I have a moral obligation for the 15 or whatever sponsors

1029
01:39:04,740 --> 01:39:12,280
Robert Breedlove has. He attracted me to watch his series way back when he didn't know sponsors,

1030
01:39:12,280 --> 01:39:21,600
And right now, I have moral obligations to skip all of his advertising because he's attacking my brain and I have to attack back or defend.

1031
01:39:22,040 --> 01:39:24,820
And how can you get out of this?

1032
01:39:25,100 --> 01:39:27,720
You have to get out of just thinking.

1033
01:39:28,080 --> 01:39:30,480
Your audience should be your client.

1034
01:39:30,760 --> 01:39:32,780
Don't turn them into your product.

1035
01:39:32,780 --> 01:39:51,600
And not only that, but what I talk in the essay is that if you actually make this what I'm suggesting there, the podcaster can now choose the sponsors that they want, not just the one that is willing to pay.

1036
01:39:51,600 --> 01:40:00,260
Because if you split the payment, now the barrier of entry of any product is zero amount.

1037
01:40:00,660 --> 01:40:04,120
You don't put up anything up front.

1038
01:40:04,460 --> 01:40:16,600
But if I buy something from your podcast or let's say you read the book and I buy that book because of the QR code and you have negotiated with the author of that book, you receive 15%.

1039
01:40:16,600 --> 01:40:19,440
The author receives 85%.

1040
01:40:19,440 --> 01:40:26,320
And now I don't need to do even charity of value for value in podcasting that I need to pay you something.

1041
01:40:26,860 --> 01:40:33,280
You gave me the valuable stuff and I have to morally decide if I want to compensate you for that.

1042
01:40:33,740 --> 01:40:36,860
But if I'm your client, I do a split payment.

1043
01:40:37,300 --> 01:40:38,620
The author receives it.

1044
01:40:38,800 --> 01:40:40,100
You receive a commission.

1045
01:40:40,440 --> 01:40:46,140
I feel good that I am contributing to the people that are involved in the value that's coming to me.

1046
01:40:46,140 --> 01:40:54,620
And not only that, but this is an idea what I said of your audience staying your client.

1047
01:40:54,960 --> 01:40:56,840
That's what I like about that idea.

1048
01:40:57,100 --> 01:41:06,060
Because if you go into the path of let's bring in sponsors, let's go chase the YouTube platform and optimize for this.

1049
01:41:06,060 --> 01:41:15,780
that simple thing of you talking abstraction of things about Bitcoin and you giving me the

1050
01:41:15,780 --> 01:41:22,580
experience of fiat is still misalignment and broken. And that's what I'm trying to emphasize

1051
01:41:22,580 --> 01:41:32,380
in the S's. Don't be a hypocrite. Give a Bitcoin experience. Use it in any shape or form that you

1052
01:41:32,380 --> 01:41:40,620
can currently right now you can't completely discharge from fiat infrastructure but what you

1053
01:41:40,620 --> 01:41:48,340
can do is actually build them side by side and let one out compete the other but if you don't

1054
01:41:48,340 --> 01:41:57,120
think of solutions designs on the other and you just comply to the existing structures we are never

1055
01:41:57,120 --> 01:42:04,280
going to actually change anything and we are just going to get captured a different way yeah that's

1056
01:42:04,280 --> 01:42:09,780
excellent yeah i do too man that's really inspiring about the whole paradigm shift looking at the

1057
01:42:09,780 --> 01:42:15,200
audience as a client instead of a product i mean i think i can speak for lucas safely and saying

1058
01:42:15,200 --> 01:42:19,480
that we would be doing this even when we kind of did doing this without an audience we love reading

1059
01:42:19,480 --> 01:42:25,860
these books and it's kind of there's this tim veris idea where if you put a failure condition

1060
01:42:25,860 --> 01:42:31,580
on something that's painful, it's going to cause you to do that thing. If you pledge to donate to

1061
01:42:31,580 --> 01:42:37,020
a charity that you hate, unless you complete, like lose 10 pounds, then you're more likely to lose 10

1062
01:42:37,020 --> 01:42:42,620
pounds. I want to read these books. And you know, the fact that Lucas and I set a date that we're

1063
01:42:42,620 --> 01:42:46,680
going to talk about them makes both of us responsible to read them in depth and then come

1064
01:42:46,680 --> 01:42:51,420
and talk about them. And then the podcast is a nice result of that. But, but down the line,

1065
01:42:51,420 --> 01:43:08,000
I love those ideas that you have and just the broadness of your thinking about what it means to sell something to somebody and how you can change that if you're willing to really embrace a Bitcoin mindset, really honest with ourselves that we want to live in a certain type of world.

1066
01:43:08,480 --> 01:43:10,380
We should embody those practices.

1067
01:43:10,600 --> 01:43:11,720
And that's, yeah, I really like that.

1068
01:43:11,800 --> 01:43:12,120
Thank you.

1069
01:43:13,880 --> 01:43:14,320
Yeah.

1070
01:43:14,620 --> 01:43:16,240
And that's what I want to see.

1071
01:43:16,320 --> 01:43:17,500
I don't want to talk about it.

1072
01:43:17,560 --> 01:43:18,960
I want people to build stuff.

1073
01:43:18,960 --> 01:43:22,300
and some people, some stuff will fail.

1074
01:43:22,760 --> 01:43:25,640
Does the market working properly?

1075
01:43:26,080 --> 01:43:28,960
Like not everything will work in the Bitcoin system.

1076
01:43:28,960 --> 01:43:31,620
But if you don't even try,

1077
01:43:31,800 --> 01:43:36,300
that means that you're making the fiat beast stronger.

1078
01:43:36,540 --> 01:43:37,600
You're prolonging it.

1079
01:43:37,860 --> 01:43:39,960
How are we going to get to the other side

1080
01:43:39,960 --> 01:43:43,140
if nobody builds anything and they just hold?

1081
01:43:43,540 --> 01:43:48,880
Like that's not the way we will become digital gold capture 2.0.

1082
01:43:48,960 --> 01:43:55,200
just like the physical goal. Like we will not get to the promised land if there is no infrastructure,

1083
01:43:55,200 --> 01:44:02,000
if nobody spends any thoughts about anything. I want to align with humanity. But in order to do

1084
01:44:02,000 --> 01:44:08,800
that, you need to build those solutions. And when those solutions are actually valuable,

1085
01:44:08,800 --> 01:44:15,200
they will be used. But if you don't build anything, all the fees will get to the banks,

1086
01:44:15,200 --> 01:44:20,560
all the fees will get to youtube all the platform all the centralization will continue further and

1087
01:44:20,560 --> 01:44:25,840
further and further until we get to the point that jason larry is emphasizing that we'll get to the

1088
01:44:25,840 --> 01:44:35,840
point of a war because the uh the disconnection between the halves and the have notes it's so wide

1089
01:44:35,840 --> 01:44:43,600
because uh even about the sports when you say the best person is so much better than the other one

1090
01:44:43,600 --> 01:44:47,740
But there is still a physical limitation how much better he can be.

1091
01:44:48,080 --> 01:44:51,180
He cannot be millions of times better.

1092
01:44:51,680 --> 01:44:57,800
In economical sense, there's billions of times somebody richer than somebody else.

1093
01:44:57,800 --> 01:45:02,980
That is not really in nature seen possible.

1094
01:45:03,520 --> 01:45:06,400
And I don't want to get to that war.

1095
01:45:06,760 --> 01:45:11,840
I want to get on the other system where we all cooperate humanity.

1096
01:45:11,840 --> 01:45:29,100
But people need to build stuff. We should get out of podcasts and a little bit of a shill. That's why I'm creating a Bitcoin documentary movie in Bulgaria that's showcasing the people that are building infrastructure and doing stuff on that parallel system.

1097
01:45:29,100 --> 01:45:39,860
We don't want to be on podcasts and just talking, listening and hodling in secret and waiting for that game theory to play out.

1098
01:45:40,040 --> 01:45:43,100
That will not happen if we don't build solutions.

1099
01:45:44,180 --> 01:45:45,980
That's beautifully said.

1100
01:45:46,540 --> 01:45:48,440
That is beautifully said.

1101
01:45:51,140 --> 01:45:54,540
The agency is lacking.

1102
01:45:54,540 --> 01:45:59,980
I think for a lot of people who feel like they've figured it out and now they just need to wait.

1103
01:46:02,220 --> 01:46:06,640
You can't skate to where the puck is going without doing some skating.

1104
01:46:07,000 --> 01:46:08,820
You actually have to put in the effort.

1105
01:46:11,320 --> 01:46:15,560
Ivan, you're a force of nature, and it's been an absolute pleasure.

1106
01:46:15,560 --> 01:46:20,480
I am going to have to jump out of here because I've got some proof of work to put in at the gym.

1107
01:46:20,480 --> 01:46:38,620
I've got to go make myself be a competitive force in this uncaring, agnostic to my desires to stay home and eat Krispy Kremes and lay in a beanbag my natural self.

1108
01:46:38,820 --> 01:46:41,100
But I thank you so much for your time.

1109
01:46:41,360 --> 01:46:47,940
And I look forward to doing this again sometime after I've accomplished something worth talking about.

1110
01:46:47,940 --> 01:47:03,360
You're doing it. You took my suggestion of experimenting with Wave Lake, which I love. But keep doing that. Just see what is practical to you, what it makes sense to you. I love that to see it.

1111
01:47:03,360 --> 01:47:09,720
and I'll share some sad see if you bring some value to me but just covering my

1112
01:47:09,720 --> 01:47:15,060
SS is something so I want not just talking about it if you do it in such a

1113
01:47:15,060 --> 01:47:20,040
way I would love to share some sads with you guys but right now if you implement

1114
01:47:20,040 --> 01:47:26,120
the ideas I would love people to do that like there needs to be a way that the

1115
01:47:26,120 --> 01:47:31,860
audience stays the client and don't become the product if nobody is actually

1116
01:47:31,860 --> 01:47:37,860
doing first of all nobody is actually thinking about it in the podcasting

1117
01:47:37,860 --> 01:47:43,320
scene they're trying but value for value is charity as I said I don't think

1118
01:47:43,320 --> 01:47:48,000
that's a sustainable model you need to figure out a way that's just an idea I

1119
01:47:48,000 --> 01:47:53,160
could be wrong but if you never apply it we are never going to find out because

1120
01:47:53,160 --> 01:48:01,440
this could be a hit idea and you outpace Rogan because in a sense of money of

1121
01:48:01,440 --> 01:48:07,440
purchasing power first of all because sad flow to you it doesn't matter how much is the audience

1122
01:48:07,440 --> 01:48:12,880
because somebody would like that idea so much that they'll hire you they'll give you uh 50 bitcoin

1123
01:48:12,880 --> 01:48:18,320
that 50 bitcoin will be so much more i don't know what kind of doors will open for you just because

1124
01:48:18,320 --> 01:48:24,000
you tap into something that's completely new and you're not going to continue chasing the

1125
01:48:24,000 --> 01:48:29,120
illusion on digits of subscribers and stuff like that but you're going to chase the real stuff and

1126
01:48:29,120 --> 01:48:40,180
And that real stuff will outpay because it's connected to, I wouldn't say 8 billion people now, but let's say 300 million people that have vested interest in Bitcoin going up.

1127
01:48:41,340 --> 01:48:42,020
Yeah, that's excellent.

1128
01:48:42,300 --> 01:48:42,600
Beautiful.

1129
01:48:42,600 --> 01:48:45,060
You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.

1130
01:48:45,180 --> 01:48:47,720
Grant, you brought us into this virtual world.

1131
01:48:47,820 --> 01:48:48,640
How about you take us out?

1132
01:48:48,640 --> 01:48:58,280
I wanted to because I wanted to say, Lucas, if you complete that cover of the black keys, tighten up and put the wave lake out there, I'm going to be beaming you some sats too.

1133
01:48:58,280 --> 01:49:05,520
was happening some stats there so it is yeah it's on today's agenda right on but but ivan thank you

1134
01:49:05,520 --> 01:49:10,140
so much those are such excellent ideas and it's such a call to action for for us but for all

1135
01:49:10,140 --> 01:49:16,060
podcasters and for everybody that wants to do something with integrity within the bitcoin

1136
01:49:16,060 --> 01:49:21,360
ecosystem within whatever walk of life they find themselves in if they want to live in a world where

1137
01:49:21,360 --> 01:49:27,980
they're embodying the values that permissionless neutral money can bring to us so you know you

1138
01:49:27,980 --> 01:49:33,720
mentioned your documentary is there anything else that you wanted to put out there or close with for

1139
01:49:33,720 --> 01:49:43,380
anybody listening here uh yeah anybody that is interested in developing an app uh breeze is now

1140
01:49:43,380 --> 01:49:49,860
not developing apps anymore we are focused on uh infrastructure so we're creating software

1141
01:49:49,860 --> 01:49:55,460
development kids so anybody that creates an app and wants lighting payments in them you don't need

1142
01:49:55,460 --> 01:50:01,620
think about it we'll take that uh pressure off we'll just give you a code and when you want to

1143
01:50:01,620 --> 01:50:08,500
receive you click a payment and behind the scenes we are going to execute we are completely abolishing

1144
01:50:08,500 --> 01:50:15,700
the barrier of entry for somebody to receive and sense that in their own apps so reach out we're

1145
01:50:15,700 --> 01:50:21,220
very reachable and the best thing is that we are preserving the non-custodial nature we are not

1146
01:50:21,220 --> 01:50:29,940
going to turn your app into a bank so the regulars the regulators can chase you so yeah i would finish

1147
01:50:29,940 --> 01:50:38,820
with that thank you so much i like this great yeah all right we're out thank you guys so much see you

1148
01:50:38,820 --> 01:50:43,380
end. Okay.