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All right, Max Hillebrand. I want to understand Nostra. I want to understand if Nostra is as inevitable as Bitcoin. I want to understand where it is and where it's going, how it's being used and philosophy behind it.

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And I can't think of any better person in order to help teach that than you.

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So if you would kind of let us in on how you think about this.

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Like the short answer is yes, NOSTER is basically inevitable.

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Long answers will have a lot of work before it actually is.

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So inevitable doesn't mean easy.

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but Noster comes at the right time

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where more and more people realize

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the dangers of a centralized internet

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and the permissioned internet

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where you have to ask someone else

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for permission to get an identity

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to sign up with an account

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you need an email

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you need

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okay I'm having some internet issues

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am I still coming through?

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You're freezing a little bit

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You glitched a bit but it came through

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Yeah

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We'll fix it in post

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The problem is real

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We all know the downsides of centralized social media and the centralized internet, and it needs to be fixed.

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And a couple of simple pieces of technology came together actually just recently to make that really doable.

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And so the main difference of what makes Nostra unique is the same of what makes Bitcoin unique.

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It's a protocol, right?

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You as the end user define for yourself by running the software that you choose to run on what exactly the rules of those protocols are.

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And that is an extremely powerful idea and concept.

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And Bitcoin very successfully applied that to money.

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You define for yourself the rules of your money system, how much money supply, under which condition it can be spent, etc.

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And then you verify that everyone else on the network follows the rules that you set.

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And if they don't, you kick them off your network.

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It's as easy as that.

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So this is extremely powerful.

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Bitcoin works extremely well.

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So now the next step to do this with is with everything else, ultimately.

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And one of the big pieces that need to be handled is online publication of information.

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And this is a war of ideas and a cultural war.

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So we need to be able to spread our message such that it's not easy to stop.

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And for this, it starts with creating your identity.

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instead of signing up with some service provider to please give me an account you just flip a coin

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you get a private key the same way that you do that with bitcoin right you don't need to go to

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a bank you just do it and now once you have this private key you can declare certain information

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about that private key so for example you sign a message that says hey my username is this and this

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my profile picture can be found here that's in my bio these are my website links here's my lightning

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address so you can pay me and and and you simply sign this event meaning anyone can verify that

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this is actually the owner of the private key making that statement of who he is and and because

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the events themselves are this kind of basic package of an event you we don't have to trust

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any server in the middle right they they could try to change the message and change your name for

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example but that would invalidate the signature and so everyone would quickly realize that hey

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someone in the middle messed with this message it's no longer the actual thing and just don't

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even show it to the user and because we don't have to trust these relays in the middle anymore

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we can just duplicate it right you can put your message on a thousand different servers

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some that companies run some that your friends run some that you run right yourself and now

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anyone can connect to any of these servers and get your message and download it and verify it

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and then show to the user that hey this person just made a post and and that's basically the

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gist of how Noster works right it's it's signed messages delivered via untrusted third-party relays

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that are extremely cheap to run.

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And on top of this,

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we can build a thousand and one different use cases

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that are extremely useful

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and solve a lot of problems

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in how humans want to engage digitally.

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So right now, my understanding of Noster

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is that I have a single digital identity

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and from that digital identity,

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I therefore don't need to have a Spotify account

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and a YouTube account and a Twitter account and all of these different things where I,

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when I build a following, I'm a musician. So I have like a following of people who listen to my

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music. But if I were to want to leave Spotify, I couldn't take the people who follow me on Spotify

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over to another service. I couldn't take them to YouTube. And I'm experimenting with this on

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Noster right now where I'm using fountain in order to publish my music. I published the podcast on a

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fountain. And so I see that obviously as one of the use cases. And I know that these things are

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all very much in their infancy. But when you look towards the future, what do you see? Paint me the

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picture of what is it that Nostr becomes? And when it's fully fleshed out, what does Nostr look like?

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It basically becomes the internet, right? Like all these things that we do online,

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I think ultimately will be re-architected for something that has strong cryptography at its core

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and is an open and decentralized and permissionless protocol. And so any app that you're using right

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now, you could think of ways of re-architecting it so that it doesn't require the central

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server anymore and that it just works on this open network much more interoperable.

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But on top of that, there will be use cases that we just haven't even thought were possible.

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This is another fundamental architecture shift that really opens your minds and gives

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entrepreneurs a green runway of trying the most crazy things that were not possible before.

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And so I don't know what these apps will be, kind of by definition.

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But I do think that they will creep into every nook and cranny of human life and kind of use cases.

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Like whenever you want to coordinate with others, I think this is going to be the technology that you might want to use, or at least the principles of this technology.

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And I don't know if Noster, as the protocol suite it is right now, will be there in the long run.

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But I'm convinced that something like it will be there.

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A little bit like Bitcoin, right?

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Bitcoin doesn't have to be here in the next 50 years, but something like Bitcoin will absolutely

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be here. Like this idea won't be forgotten. The implementation might change and the details of it,

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but I think the underlying building blocks and the use cases that that enables,

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A, will be something to behold. So I'm a Noster newbie, just very, very, I have very little

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working knowledge of it other than theoretical, philosophical, what I've heard people say.

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if Noster re-architects the internet or if the internet is re-architected on Noster

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what is that like from a first-person perspective for the Noster naive person who logs on the

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internet navigates around does things is it the same experience a different experience

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that's more privacy preservative or what is it is it a third thing yeah it it will feel

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quite magical in the sense that you no longer have to ask for creating an account right and

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and that fear of your account being removed will be gone and i think a lot of creators nowadays are

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very careful what they say to to not you know piss off the wrong people that will that will

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get their livelihood destroyed by removing their ability to to publish information right or music

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or whatever it is. So that fear will go away. And the plethora of tools that you can use

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that are tailor-made to what you actually want to achieve will drastically increase.

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Right now, most people just go to Facebook and everyone has the same interface and you cannot

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really leave it. If you would like to talk to people on Facebook, you have to use the Facebook

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interface exactly how that company declares that you should see it and with nostr it is so

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unbelievably easy to create a new user interface that might just change some colors or really

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change the fundamental user experience to whatever the developer wants and so massive amounts of

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creativity we have already way above a thousand different nostr apps that you can use that behave

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completely different. Some look quite similar, right? But some are really crazy. And there's no

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websites where you can write Nostra apps, like white code them, right? With AI, you don't even

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need to code anymore in order to create your own user interface to make an app that works exactly

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how you want it to. So I think we will go back to these, you know, old funky initial websites that

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were also incredibly unique, right? Back in the days, there wasn't Facebook. You just had a website

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and you designed it from the ground up in HTML code.

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And it looked super unique.

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And it was a weird time in the internet.

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And I think we'll get back to that

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where you will have a experience with your computer

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that is tailor-made to how you want it

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and not decided by some big corporation

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somewhere on a different continent.

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Yeah, so when I think about one of the things that,

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when I think about what Bitcoin did

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that kind of sent me into the fugue state

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of this changes everything and this enables so much,

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the thing that I kept coming back to was

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how it encourages collaboration through aligned incentives.

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And with Nostr, building the internet from the ground up on Nostr

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is basically word for word Jason Lowry's software thesis

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is that Bitcoin is both the cannonball and the castle wall,

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that in order to get through to me that you have to send me sats

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if I don't want you to, or I can put a barricade around my digital identity

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using Bitcoin as both the passive and the active weapon in order to defend that.

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And so I see a lot of like, there's a lot of like paywall things.

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Like the thing that comes most to mind is that there's all these walled gardens around academic articles.

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And these are the things that could truly change people's lives if they were able to consume them and be on the forefront and understand, understand, kind of understand the science that that helps benefit them.

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what right now um what right now is the most i would say like transformative use of nostr how is

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it how is it making waves um in the world right now and um i guess i don't i don't expect that to

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be the thing that continues but like what is the greatest use case or the most popular use case or

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the most beneficial use case right now for Noster?

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Well, I think for right now, the main use case is basically Twitter, right?

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Like short notes that get uploaded, short messages that you want to broadcast to the

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world.

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And that is the original thing that Noster did, right?

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So back in the early days, there were basically two types of Noster events.

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The first Noster event is your profile, right?

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So username, picture, bio, etc.

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And the second was just a short form note at a couple lines of text.

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And with these two, you can bootstrap a social network already.

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But the cool thing is that Nostr itself is quite agnostic to the type of content that you put on it.

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It is just a text message with some structure to it.

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So JSON, technically speaking.

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and how to interpret these messages are completely up to client developers.

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And so by now there are thousands of different types of messages,

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different schemas that you can use that express completely different things.

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So, you know, to build on the original short text note,

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there were things like reactions.

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And every time you like something, it's actually a signed event

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that others can verify that, yeah, he actually liked this, right?

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or reposting something, commenting underneath it,

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like long chains of comments between different people.

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So we have this public discourse

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where anyone can respond underneath your messages.

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And also quite crucially, nobody can stop that.

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Nowadays, if some spicy content hits Twitter,

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it instantly gets throttled that you don't see it

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or you cannot comment under it.

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And that is weird, right?

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Nobody should have the power to just shut people up like that.

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And so with Nostra, that is not possible, right?

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But then on the other hand, you can really like moderate your own experience quite thoroughly.

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I mean, one easy way of doing this is just by following people.

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And so following someone is just a list of public keys that are signed by your private key.

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And now your client, as well as others, can see, hey, these people, you know, are trusted enough by the author of this list,

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though that he wants to see their content in the feed.

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And then this starts to bootstrap a web of trust,

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which is basically a connection between otherwise random looking public keys.

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So how can we differentiate between a high quality account, so to say,

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or a low quality spammer?

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And the way to do that is by seeing what your friends are doing.

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And this is also quite a revolutionary concept of

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what kind of is important to you

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depends very much on your local network.

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You don't care so much about the global town square.

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You care about your neighbors, ultimately,

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and friends and family.

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So with this, you can give them

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kind of a level of trust and reputation

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that is much more decentralized at its core.

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And so that occurrence of big accounts

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being censored or shut down

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just doesn't exist there.

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so i can understand the content itself no go ahead go ahead sorry no no please well i was so

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you use the word event to describe occurrences within nostr and is so i can understand the

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physics of what's going on you said creating the profile the event of that posting the note

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describing that as an event is event is there a specific significance to that vocabulary is that

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protocol vocabularies that nostril vocabulary and why event yeah um so that's it's nostril

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vocabulary um also earlier so i would say computer science vocabulary and it's basically just a a

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chunk of data right that if analyzed by itself is already meaningful right it's a little bit like

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bitcoin blocks right if if someone sends you a bitcoin block you see the the significance of it

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in the way that the data is structured and that the hash, you know, has a bunch of leading zeros,

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et cetera. So this is, and similar in Noster. So an event, technically speaking, is the signed

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text message, right? Specifically in JSON. And so this means that first comes the like kind number,

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which is how do we actually interpret this event, right? Is it a like, is it a repost,

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Is it a music video? Is it a podcast? Whatever, right? And then comes some tags, for example, if you want to say, hey, you want to tag Alice and Bob in this event so that they get notified as well, right? We add their public keys into this event as well.

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Then we have the actual content and whatever that is, be it text or such.

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And finally, a signature.

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And so the signature is the cryptographic guarantee that the person who controls this private key actually has seen and done computation on top of this message.

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And finally, is a unique identifier.

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And the identifier is just a hash of this piece of data.

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Again, quite similar to Bitcoin.

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The transaction ID is the hash of the transaction.

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And so all of this together, that is Nostre event, a text file that has structure to it

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so that you know exactly how to write this message such that other people's software can easily read it.

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Because the initial posts should be differently rendered than the like or than a blog post or anything else.

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And the cool thing is that, so this gives you some deep fundamental building blocks,

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like these cryptographic signatures, event integrity, etc.

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But then what type of message you put in there

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and how exactly you structure this is completely up to you.

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And so there are hundreds of developers

223
00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,640
who are coming up with new structured pieces of data

224
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that can express something of interest.

225
00:17:56,780 --> 00:18:00,040
And that can be marketplaces, app releases,

226
00:18:00,380 --> 00:18:02,580
group communications, encrypted communications.

227
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,300
There's hundreds of these different schemas

228
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on how to interpret that message.

229
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But the critical piece is

230
00:18:09,580 --> 00:18:12,040
that this is all open source, right?

231
00:18:12,100 --> 00:18:13,800
So the protocol is open.

232
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:15,180
You can just read it.

233
00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:17,020
It's not that difficult to read, actually.

234
00:18:17,140 --> 00:18:19,000
I encourage even the non-technical people

235
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:20,340
to have a look.

236
00:18:20,420 --> 00:18:21,580
They're not that intimidating.

237
00:18:22,980 --> 00:18:24,560
Quite short documents, usually.

238
00:18:25,140 --> 00:18:27,120
And then you can audit

239
00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:28,720
all of the open source code

240
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:29,340
that is out there.

241
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:30,960
Again, hundreds, if not thousands

242
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:32,340
of different pieces of software

243
00:18:32,340 --> 00:18:35,060
speak these different implementations

244
00:18:35,060 --> 00:18:35,840
of the protocol.

245
00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:40,580
And so you can just look of how they're doing it and you can write it yourself.

246
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:49,500
This was maybe one of the reasons why Nostra really was so successful is because it was extremely easy for developers to spin up everything that they need.

247
00:18:49,740 --> 00:19:05,020
If you have a cryptographic library and a little bit of coding skills, then you can create a Nostra event in an afternoon and you can create this relay that receives and passes forward these messages and run them on a Raspberry Pi in your basement.

248
00:19:05,020 --> 00:19:13,340
This is just not possible with any of the legacy infrastructures that developers have a playground of doing whatever they want.

249
00:19:13,980 --> 00:19:26,240
And again, now with AI making such crazy progress and turning anyone into a programmer if they really want to, that just gives us now the opportunity to unleash that potential of a bunch of creativity.

250
00:19:27,060 --> 00:19:28,820
And we already see that.

251
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,480
The different interfaces in Nosr are all fascinating and quite unique.

252
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:41,140
Like there's many things that you just don't see elsewhere on the internet because the fundamental building blocks allow the developers to do that.

253
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:51,440
So to understand the physics more than the event is the block in Bitcoin terms, the relay is the node in Bitcoin terms.

254
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:58,100
Is there a miner or something that processes the block or is it not like proof of work in that sense?

255
00:19:58,140 --> 00:19:58,960
So there's no analogy.

256
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:10,740
no not not really uh so there are no miners um because in in bitcoin we want to do a money system

257
00:20:10,740 --> 00:20:15,480
and for digital money it's important that we all agree that these tokens are already spent

258
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:20,680
right the double spending problem and and so satoshi managed a way that a decentralized

259
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:26,520
anonymous group of people can agree on which tokens are spent and which are unspent right

260
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,300
and that requires this massive

261
00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:32,080
peer-to-peer network and proof of work

262
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:33,980
and all types of craziness

263
00:20:33,980 --> 00:20:35,560
and

264
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,160
these are downsides that Bitcoin makes

265
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,240
because it requires this global consensus

266
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,420
with Nostir

267
00:20:43,420 --> 00:20:44,880
we're just talking

268
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:57,478
this is not money this is communication and for communication you do not need a global consensus mechanism My speech should not be valid depending on what someone else on the other side of the planet spoke

269
00:20:58,358 --> 00:21:01,539
So we don't need to have global consensus in NOSTER.

270
00:21:02,059 --> 00:21:06,598
And so the specific tasks that a miner does, doesn't exist in NOSTER.

271
00:21:06,598 --> 00:21:19,799
All you need is a client who creates a message, then uploads it to a relay, and some other client who downloads this message and validates it and displays it to the user.

272
00:21:20,338 --> 00:21:25,638
As long as these three entities basically exist, you have a function in Nostra network.

273
00:21:26,178 --> 00:21:27,178
And they can be separate.

274
00:21:27,458 --> 00:21:31,458
So relays are dumb servers, and they don't talk to each other.

275
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Nostr is not traditionally speaking a peer-to-peer network because that would require everyone to be able to talk to each other.

276
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And these systems are just crazy complex.

277
00:21:41,718 --> 00:21:46,098
So there is BitTorrent and other things or pair drive, etc.

278
00:21:46,258 --> 00:21:48,978
So there are other peer-to-peer networks.

279
00:21:49,658 --> 00:21:55,658
Nostr is 1% of their complexity with 90% of the benefit.

280
00:21:55,658 --> 00:22:00,758
and because it enables you to just spin up a server in your home

281
00:22:00,758 --> 00:22:04,778
and anyone who's on the home Wi-Fi can connect to the server

282
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and do the things that your app supports

283
00:22:08,558 --> 00:22:10,398
and you don't need to connect to the broader internet.

284
00:22:11,158 --> 00:22:13,058
So I think for the social use case,

285
00:22:13,278 --> 00:22:15,238
we don't want to have global consensus.

286
00:22:15,398 --> 00:22:16,358
We don't need to have it.

287
00:22:16,898 --> 00:22:19,039
And so that's why with Nostra,

288
00:22:19,098 --> 00:22:20,558
we get away with something much simpler

289
00:22:20,558 --> 00:22:23,498
that doesn't require the peer-to-peer network or mining.

290
00:22:23,898 --> 00:22:25,558
So as soon as you sign an event,

291
00:22:25,658 --> 00:22:30,218
it's valid and then it's completely up to the receiver of how he gets it

292
00:22:30,218 --> 00:22:38,578
one of the things that you mentioned in an earlier podcast that i think is so beautiful is just the

293
00:22:38,578 --> 00:22:47,138
understanding of of ideas as a positive sum game that if i bring an idea and you bring an idea and

294
00:22:47,138 --> 00:22:52,758
we exchange ideas we both leave with two ideas as opposed to if i bring an apple and you bring a

295
00:22:52,758 --> 00:23:02,878
carrot and we exchange, then we walk away in a zero sum. And so this spreading of ideas,

296
00:23:03,338 --> 00:23:10,278
as it does blossom and as it does grow, will be obviously hugely beneficial to humanity because

297
00:23:10,278 --> 00:23:15,218
it will be the network effect of sharing ideas, that it's not just me and you, that it's me and

298
00:23:15,218 --> 00:23:23,718
everybody. So can you give me an idea, like comparatively speaking, I guess, to other social

299
00:23:23,718 --> 00:23:32,039
networks or other, other comparatives, how big is NOSTER right now? And how fast is it growing?

300
00:23:32,039 --> 00:23:37,258
Because I'm, I'm less concerned with the size of something and I'm more concerned,

301
00:23:37,678 --> 00:23:41,078
or I'm less concerned with where something's at. And I'm more concerned with where it's going.

302
00:23:41,358 --> 00:23:44,218
And I think the trajectory is probably far more important.

303
00:23:45,218 --> 00:24:03,158
Yeah, Noster grows in cycles as well. It started in late 2020, where the real first code and clients appeared. And basically every year, though, it experienced some boom growth.

304
00:24:03,158 --> 00:24:11,799
and by now we again have probably above 5 000 relays that that relay messages from from whomever

305
00:24:11,799 --> 00:24:20,018
we have certainly above 100 clients we're probably above 500 clients maybe that's that's a wild guess

306
00:24:20,018 --> 00:24:24,778
um it kind of depends how you count it because nowadays it's just so easy to create a client

307
00:24:24,778 --> 00:24:29,698
that like you know one one person who's not even a developer can all of a sudden spin up

308
00:24:29,698 --> 00:24:32,418
50 different clients over the span of a week or two.

309
00:24:32,978 --> 00:24:35,638
So counting that is already kind of getting lost.

310
00:24:36,438 --> 00:24:40,058
We have millions of active monthly users.

311
00:24:41,118 --> 00:24:44,299
The trick here is that it's a bit difficult to find that out

312
00:24:44,299 --> 00:24:46,758
because one person can have multiple key pairs.

313
00:24:47,498 --> 00:24:49,498
You can have multiple main identities.

314
00:24:50,498 --> 00:24:52,998
And then for some of these protocols,

315
00:24:53,318 --> 00:24:57,558
you actually create a new key every time you upload something.

316
00:24:57,778 --> 00:24:59,478
So there's a lot of these ephemeral events

317
00:24:59,478 --> 00:25:03,218
where we don't know if it's, you know, one person or a hundred.

318
00:25:04,358 --> 00:25:08,218
But ultimately, I would say, yeah, multiple hundreds of thousands,

319
00:25:08,938 --> 00:25:14,418
maybe a couple million are actively kind of using this system.

320
00:25:15,138 --> 00:25:17,618
And what's interesting, more and more just under the hood,

321
00:25:18,178 --> 00:25:19,758
I don't know, maybe you've heard about BitChat,

322
00:25:20,158 --> 00:25:22,458
which is like this Bluetooth messaging.

323
00:25:23,958 --> 00:25:29,458
Yeah, this uses Nosturnum, right, for these global chats that it does.

324
00:25:29,478 --> 00:25:32,418
It's no longer Bluetooth. It just connects to Nostre Relays.

325
00:25:33,258 --> 00:25:37,838
And so nobody is really thinking about BitShare as a Nostre client, but ultimately it is.

326
00:25:38,018 --> 00:25:44,539
There will be more and more applications, existing applications, that just add some parts of the Nostre ecosystem under the hood.

327
00:25:45,158 --> 00:25:48,318
And users might not even know the difference, just that it starts working a bit better.

328
00:25:49,198 --> 00:25:53,998
But for the longest time, I was joking that we have more developers than users.

329
00:25:54,518 --> 00:25:57,378
And I think that's the growth metric that I'm most excited about.

330
00:25:57,378 --> 00:26:07,798
the amount of developers, the quality of them, and the volume of their output is on a very, very steep trajectory.

331
00:26:08,258 --> 00:26:10,258
Much more consistent than users.

332
00:26:11,098 --> 00:26:14,278
Developers are just flocking to this protocol and usually not leaving.

333
00:26:14,978 --> 00:26:20,318
So that is what makes me extremely bullish because you need to build out the infrastructure first before the users come.

334
00:26:20,498 --> 00:26:26,978
And so if you want to bootstrap a new social network, then focusing on developers first is a very good idea.

335
00:26:26,978 --> 00:26:28,458
and Noster did that right.

336
00:26:29,078 --> 00:26:31,518
Again, it's such a stupid, simple protocol.

337
00:26:31,938 --> 00:26:34,638
It really just, you write a message, you sign it,

338
00:26:34,738 --> 00:26:36,818
you put it on a server, you put it on 10 servers

339
00:26:36,818 --> 00:26:39,498
and other people get it and download it and verify it, right?

340
00:26:39,558 --> 00:26:42,238
Like that's, you explain the concept in a sentence

341
00:26:42,238 --> 00:26:45,178
and you implement it in less than a day.

342
00:26:45,858 --> 00:26:49,198
And that really, yeah, made developers happy

343
00:26:49,198 --> 00:26:51,618
and they are very enthusiastic

344
00:26:51,618 --> 00:26:55,458
and by now numerous different projects.

345
00:26:55,458 --> 00:27:00,078
I guess there's a lot of solo developers who just come up with a cool idea and build it.

346
00:27:00,898 --> 00:27:03,298
But then there is more and more collaboration between them.

347
00:27:04,398 --> 00:27:06,458
I don't know, maybe one thing to shout out is marketplaces.

348
00:27:07,238 --> 00:27:15,638
Nostr can be used to publish a, hey, I'm selling this lawnmower, whatever, 2000 sats, come and take it.

349
00:27:16,498 --> 00:27:24,738
And then others can download these events and see what's in the marketplace, filtered by your web of trust and the people whom you're following, etc.

350
00:27:24,738 --> 00:27:33,518
So there are now probably four or five different clients that have been working on the marketplace use case for well over two years.

351
00:27:33,638 --> 00:27:36,838
It was actually one of the core ideas when Nostra first started.

352
00:27:37,598 --> 00:27:40,638
And now we're in the third iteration of this protocol.

353
00:27:41,358 --> 00:27:42,358
And so that's the cool thing.

354
00:27:42,558 --> 00:27:43,918
You can just keep improving it.

355
00:27:44,398 --> 00:27:49,018
And if the old version is no longer great, you just update and move along.

356
00:27:49,338 --> 00:27:53,118
It's much easier to update the Nostra protocol than it is to update the Bitcoin protocol.

357
00:27:53,118 --> 00:27:55,178
because we don't require global consensus.

358
00:27:55,858 --> 00:27:58,838
And so if you want to fork something, you just do it.

359
00:27:58,918 --> 00:28:00,318
You don't have to ask anyone for permission.

360
00:28:01,018 --> 00:28:04,638
And, you know, events are valid however you design them.

361
00:28:05,258 --> 00:28:09,478
So there's a huge amount of collaboration between these projects.

362
00:28:10,158 --> 00:28:13,738
And then, you know, four or five different developer teams team up

363
00:28:13,738 --> 00:28:16,178
and solve big problems together and then all benefit

364
00:28:16,178 --> 00:28:20,318
due to the open source and open protocol nature of this beast.

365
00:28:20,798 --> 00:28:22,238
But there's also numerous companies.

366
00:28:22,238 --> 00:28:29,718
not as many as there probably should be but yeah quite lots of entrepreneurs see that there is a

367
00:28:29,718 --> 00:28:36,338
high value for for that can be created here and they're happy to allocate some capital and hire

368
00:28:36,338 --> 00:28:44,918
people to work full-time on the protocol as well as their clients and yeah it's absolutely on a

369
00:28:44,918 --> 00:28:50,898
growing trajectory so if you have these entrepreneurs and developers hoping to derive value from some

370
00:28:50,898 --> 00:28:56,258
sort of interaction with the protocol is there an internal set of incentives that keep clients

371
00:28:56,258 --> 00:29:01,318
and relays going like of course bitcoin has an intricate dance of incentives and it creates a

372
00:29:01,318 --> 00:29:06,698
unit of value to incentivize its self-functioning is there something similar with nostr that keeps

373
00:29:06,698 --> 00:29:13,898
it going as a protocol internally some sort of incentive structure no and arguably that's why

374
00:29:13,898 --> 00:29:19,998
it works right because if you need to somehow figure out the payment system natively in in the

375
00:29:19,998 --> 00:29:24,538
social protocol that just is really, really hard to do right.

376
00:29:25,018 --> 00:29:28,498
You know, we've seen this with, I don't know, Steemit, for example, or other blockchain-based

377
00:29:28,498 --> 00:29:33,558
social media networks, and they all kind of fail because it's weird to have to pay in

378
00:29:33,558 --> 00:29:34,478
order to make a post.

379
00:29:35,238 --> 00:29:39,898
And that just closes the door on so many different use cases that would have been otherwise

380
00:29:39,898 --> 00:29:40,398
possible.

381
00:29:41,058 --> 00:29:46,218
So the basic Nostra protocol has nothing about money, which is really interesting.

382
00:29:46,218 --> 00:29:51,378
But the cool thing is that when you have clean building blocks, you can build advanced stuff on top.

383
00:29:52,338 --> 00:29:57,398
So, you know, one of the early things was just everyone, everyone put his lightning address in their profile.

384
00:29:58,138 --> 00:30:07,398
And now all of a sudden you can send someone money and reference the post that he made that encouraged you to finally send him money.

385
00:30:07,858 --> 00:30:09,118
So these are known as zaps.

386
00:30:09,758 --> 00:30:13,478
Much more powerful than a like is if someone actually sends money to a post.

387
00:30:13,478 --> 00:30:20,158
right that that's a real economic signal so that was discovered very soon and built into the protocol

388
00:30:20,158 --> 00:30:25,278
and then also the question is who's going to store your events right who's going to store all those

389
00:30:25,278 --> 00:30:30,278
messages for you and sure some people will do it for free but probably you'll get a better service

390
00:30:30,278 --> 00:30:35,418
if you pay for it more storage more bandwidth more reliable uptime you know that the server

391
00:30:35,418 --> 00:30:42,518
will be there in five years from now right and so relay started to gate access telling people hey

392
00:30:42,518 --> 00:30:47,958
only people who've paid me a monthly subscription or one-time payments are allowed to put their

393
00:30:47,958 --> 00:30:55,398
events on on my relay and and so that is quite a flourishing market and then of course the question

394
00:30:55,398 --> 00:31:02,278
is how do the applications get paid and I guess here the trick I realized is that's a really easy

395
00:31:02,838 --> 00:31:09,398
answer if the user has money in the software right like how to get paid on the internet was always

396
00:31:09,398 --> 00:31:13,318
really difficult because the user didn't have money on the internet because there was no money

397
00:31:13,318 --> 00:31:20,518
on the internet right but now that we have that and now that we have cheap private instant

398
00:31:20,518 --> 00:31:27,638
microtransactions that we can just write code that move money from the user to the developers

399
00:31:27,638 --> 00:31:33,718
basically and that of course has to be done in an ethical way and transparently etc but

400
00:31:33,718 --> 00:31:39,158
users are not that worried about a small fee to be paid for something like

401
00:31:39,398 --> 00:31:43,678
Humans do that all the time, especially if it's easy and fast and frictionless.

402
00:31:43,878 --> 00:31:45,018
And we can do that now.

403
00:31:45,018 --> 00:31:56,438
So one very common way that clients get funded is whenever a user sends a thousand sats to the person who created the post, the developer takes 10 sats, whatever.

404
00:31:57,238 --> 00:32:02,018
And this is a small micro economy that are microtransactions.

405
00:32:02,478 --> 00:32:07,418
There's not that many large value payments on Noster, but it does sum up.

406
00:32:07,418 --> 00:32:12,518
I forget the exact number, but probably north of 20 Bitcoin has been probably 40 Bitcoin

407
00:32:12,518 --> 00:32:15,598
have been transacted over Nostra since inception.

408
00:32:16,418 --> 00:32:18,218
So it's, you know, it sums up.

409
00:32:18,278 --> 00:32:22,678
And again, we're at a very early stage with barely any users comparatively.

410
00:32:22,678 --> 00:32:29,098
And you can imagine how that would be serious volume when we reach, you know, hundreds of

411
00:32:29,098 --> 00:32:31,298
millions of people using this tool.

412
00:32:32,698 --> 00:32:36,858
So there's numerous ways that you can add money and the financial incentive.

413
00:32:37,418 --> 00:32:39,418
in on top of this protocol.

414
00:32:39,958 --> 00:32:42,958
But the the beauty and the reason why I think it works

415
00:32:42,958 --> 00:32:46,718
is that the core of it is so simple and doesn't require any of that.

416
00:32:47,058 --> 00:32:50,718
And it enables developers to build that into their final app.

417
00:32:51,258 --> 00:32:54,018
But it's not a requirement for the core of the protocol.

418
00:32:56,058 --> 00:33:02,478
I I want to because I am so enamored by the way that you speak philosophically.

419
00:33:03,018 --> 00:33:06,078
I want to hear about

420
00:33:06,078 --> 00:33:13,558
sort of the axioms that drive you to really invest in this space?

421
00:33:13,598 --> 00:33:17,158
Because you previously were a co-founder of Wasabi Wallet,

422
00:33:17,238 --> 00:33:20,238
worked with CoinJoin and Trezor, I believe, as well,

423
00:33:20,318 --> 00:33:22,018
kind of interacting on CoinJoin.

424
00:33:25,138 --> 00:33:30,118
You've dedicated, it appears, your life to empowering freedom

425
00:33:30,118 --> 00:33:33,758
through defensive technologies through code.

426
00:33:33,758 --> 00:33:43,998
And we see the adoption rate of Bitcoin and of technologies like Noster and BitChat.

427
00:33:44,278 --> 00:33:52,838
They seem to always occur in coincidence with government aggression or government overreach or censorship, etc.

428
00:33:52,838 --> 00:34:04,458
so I guess I just kind of we're seeing this now in Iran in Uganda in Venezuela all across the world

429
00:34:04,458 --> 00:34:14,298
and and to a lesser degree in the United States as well but still massively I guess kind of go

430
00:34:14,298 --> 00:34:22,479
philosophical on us here a bit and just kind of expand expand our understanding of how this

431
00:34:22,479 --> 00:34:31,999
changes things how this empowers beyond just i don't need your permission um beyond just um

432
00:34:31,999 --> 00:34:35,898
yeah beyond beyond just i don't need permission to do something i guess

433
00:34:35,898 --> 00:34:44,278
yeah well i guess ultimately the question is what what makes a good life and like what what's what's

434
00:34:44,278 --> 00:34:45,138
It's a life worth living.

435
00:34:45,838 --> 00:34:52,058
And I think to a large extent, not being stolen from is extremely essential there.

436
00:34:52,499 --> 00:34:56,198
On both sides, I don't think thieves are happy.

437
00:34:56,198 --> 00:35:04,198
I think they're quite hurt and have a lot of pain from the consequences of their actions, even if subconsciously.

438
00:35:04,338 --> 00:35:07,118
So being a thief is not a good thing for you.

439
00:35:07,718 --> 00:35:09,979
And of course, the other side is even worse.

440
00:35:09,979 --> 00:35:11,979
being a victim of theft

441
00:35:11,979 --> 00:35:13,318
and slavery is

442
00:35:13,318 --> 00:35:14,558
horrible

443
00:35:14,558 --> 00:35:18,038
that is a substantial

444
00:35:18,038 --> 00:35:19,778
amount of suffering in

445
00:35:19,778 --> 00:35:21,218
the human experience

446
00:35:21,218 --> 00:35:23,858
is the theft that is

447
00:35:23,858 --> 00:35:26,118
extremely prevalent and has been

448
00:35:26,118 --> 00:35:27,298
for a long time

449
00:35:27,298 --> 00:35:29,499
and that is something that

450
00:35:29,499 --> 00:35:31,178
I think if

451
00:35:31,178 --> 00:35:33,198
removed, if fixed

452
00:35:33,198 --> 00:35:35,878
if theft were to become impossible

453
00:35:35,878 --> 00:35:37,398
that would

454
00:35:37,398 --> 00:35:39,338
unlock such an

455
00:35:39,979 --> 00:35:47,838
unthought of amount of potential and benefit and flourishing that it's really hard to put into words.

456
00:35:48,519 --> 00:35:51,578
And like I think the rule to prosperity is very simple.

457
00:35:51,858 --> 00:35:52,678
Just don't steal.

458
00:35:53,398 --> 00:36:00,459
And if that's the one rule that if consistently followed, and I know it's hard to actually consistently follow that,

459
00:36:01,258 --> 00:36:07,198
then we have an untold amount of collaboration that is possible.

460
00:36:07,198 --> 00:36:24,638
And here, this is really something that it's difficult to overstate and kind of estimate of where would we be if in the last 100 years, especially, there was no theft, there was no inflation, there was no war, right?

461
00:36:25,459 --> 00:36:31,258
Like, nobody really knows of what could, where could we be already at today?

462
00:36:31,258 --> 00:36:37,378
and then equally in the future like if if we would get our shit together and and start to

463
00:36:37,378 --> 00:36:43,778
live peacefully and to trade freely and and to help each other ultimately uh if if we would you

464
00:36:43,778 --> 00:36:51,479
know unite on solving the most monumental problems that that are facing us where could we be in two

465
00:36:51,479 --> 00:37:00,138
years even five years right let alone 50 or 100 it's it's something that is long overdue for for

466
00:37:00,138 --> 00:37:05,939
the human spirit to have a free and peaceful life and therefore a prosperous one.

467
00:37:05,939 --> 00:37:21,258
And I believe we're at this unique point in human history where we've discovered a set of techniques and technologies that actually practically make theft impossible or unprofitable.

468
00:37:21,798 --> 00:37:25,558
That is the beauty of asymmetric key cryptography, for example.

469
00:37:25,558 --> 00:37:31,919
to create a private key and to derive a public key is incredibly easy like it's you can do it a

470
00:37:31,919 --> 00:37:38,598
billion times a second on your phone right absolutely free and the the cost of trying to

471
00:37:38,598 --> 00:37:44,398
break that right to to brute force the private key if you only know the public key it required

472
00:37:44,398 --> 00:37:50,378
an amount of energy that would produce a black hole before it would crack the number like it's

473
00:37:50,378 --> 00:37:56,559
It's absolutely mind boggling that this is true, like that this actually works.

474
00:37:57,519 --> 00:38:00,999
Edward Snowden has this great line of the universe smiles on encryption.

475
00:38:01,778 --> 00:38:03,338
Or maybe it is Julian Assange.

476
00:38:03,878 --> 00:38:06,338
But it really is the case.

477
00:38:06,398 --> 00:38:08,039
It's like a wink of the universe.

478
00:38:08,698 --> 00:38:14,559
Like, hey, there's something really powerful in this world and you can use it.

479
00:38:14,559 --> 00:38:36,618
So this is ultimately, I think, what drives a lot of people in Bitcoin and in Oster is that believe that if humans would have the right incentives in place to make theft structurally impossible, then we could build something that is godly, basically.

480
00:38:37,419 --> 00:38:40,238
And that, I think, is true.

481
00:38:40,618 --> 00:38:41,979
So that's why I'm building it.

482
00:38:41,979 --> 00:38:58,398
So how does that connect back to Noster? I can see how Bitcoin protects from theft is a value layer that secures transactions. How does that philosophical bent towards protecting us from theft, how does that apply to Noster?

483
00:38:58,398 --> 00:39:08,439
well you know theft of money is bad but the theft of your thoughts is is worse in in the sense of

484
00:39:08,439 --> 00:39:14,459
like propaganda is is a horrible thing right and and indoctrination and with with the current

485
00:39:14,459 --> 00:39:21,258
architecture of the technology it is inevitable that indoctrination and propaganda will be spread

486
00:39:21,258 --> 00:39:25,479
to an insane amount of people right you you don't choose the things that you watch

487
00:39:26,258 --> 00:39:27,519
The algorithm tells you.

488
00:39:28,358 --> 00:39:29,959
And most people just do that.

489
00:39:30,238 --> 00:39:32,738
And ever more so in recent years.

490
00:39:33,479 --> 00:39:34,979
And that is dangerous.

491
00:39:35,238 --> 00:39:41,078
If someone else controls what you're reading, not only knows what you're reading, that alone is scary.

492
00:39:41,078 --> 00:39:52,059
But if you actually can control what you read, what new information gets presented to you, then you never even have the chance to form your own independent opinion on a neutral subject.

493
00:39:52,298 --> 00:39:54,818
Because you're eclipsed by messages from the adversary.

494
00:39:55,479 --> 00:39:58,278
So that is a very scary thing.

495
00:39:58,439 --> 00:40:03,078
If you want to have actual rigorous thought on difficult subjects,

496
00:40:03,078 --> 00:40:07,678
it does require a neutral way of accumulating information.

497
00:40:07,979 --> 00:40:09,178
That's where the trivium starts.

498
00:40:09,979 --> 00:40:11,758
But then it also is about speech.

499
00:40:12,298 --> 00:40:18,019
If it is so easily possible for any middleman to silence anyone for whatever reason,

500
00:40:18,959 --> 00:40:24,499
then that is such an immense power that obviously we've seen in recent years.

501
00:40:24,499 --> 00:40:32,979
Like the shadow banning, the deplatforming, the financial censorship based on what was said is enorm.

502
00:40:33,378 --> 00:40:39,718
And that just means that the smart people will stop talking and we will all be dumber for it.

503
00:40:40,198 --> 00:40:42,338
And that is horrible.

504
00:40:42,778 --> 00:40:47,318
And so this is more of your bodily autonomy, ultimately.

505
00:40:47,898 --> 00:40:52,419
Where Bitcoin is a property, right, in a thing that you can use to trade.

506
00:40:52,419 --> 00:40:57,559
what speech is is much more closer to the actual human soul.

507
00:40:58,378 --> 00:41:02,539
And therefore, we need to enable systems and create these systems

508
00:41:02,539 --> 00:41:05,459
that ensure that messages can be propagated,

509
00:41:05,598 --> 00:41:10,098
that people have a voice and are able to communicate with each other

510
00:41:10,098 --> 00:41:11,718
and to coordinate with each other.

511
00:41:11,818 --> 00:41:14,878
Because Bitcoin doesn't help you if you don't have any friends

512
00:41:14,878 --> 00:41:16,398
and have nobody to trade with.

513
00:41:17,198 --> 00:41:21,939
So in order to have this free economy, we need so much more than just money.

514
00:41:22,419 --> 00:41:24,419
We need everything else as well.

515
00:41:24,419 --> 00:41:29,919
And so after money comes another foundational building block, which is communication.

516
00:41:29,919 --> 00:41:33,218
And that again feeds back into what we can do with the money.

517
00:41:33,218 --> 00:41:46,577
Like the largest circular economy in Bitcoin right now is Noster The number of payments going back and forth is unreal really Now that makes sense You said that where the Trivium starts

518
00:41:46,697 --> 00:41:48,377
What's Trivium, a reference, or what is that?

519
00:41:50,157 --> 00:41:54,597
The Trivium is the way to process knowledge, basically, right?

520
00:41:54,597 --> 00:42:01,697
So you start with knowledge, which is just, you know, information itself.

521
00:42:01,697 --> 00:42:10,957
and that is then what you can intake and internally process to understand and so after knowledge comes

522
00:42:10,957 --> 00:42:16,297
understanding where you have applied your your mental faculty and and reached conclusions right

523
00:42:16,297 --> 00:42:23,437
but then the final step and that's where wisdom comes is to apply this knowledge and so this is

524
00:42:23,437 --> 00:42:31,357
the the trivium and old gnostic concept of of how to progress and and grow by accumulating knowledge

525
00:42:31,357 --> 00:42:34,057
by understanding it truthfully and rigorously,

526
00:42:34,297 --> 00:42:38,277
and then applying the things that you've learned in your actual daily life.

527
00:42:40,077 --> 00:42:44,917
You've spoken before defining the state as organized aggression.

528
00:42:46,117 --> 00:42:53,897
And, you know, fiat money is a technology through which the state is able to extract value.

529
00:42:54,757 --> 00:43:01,217
Centralized communication is a way to censor ideas and implant propaganda.

530
00:43:01,357 --> 00:43:09,677
and I heard you say, you know, that the natural, the natural in state of this is anarchy because

531
00:43:09,677 --> 00:43:16,157
the, eventually the host has to protect itself against the parasite, which is, which is the

532
00:43:16,157 --> 00:43:24,257
state in this, uh, in this analogy. Um, when we think of anarchy, everybody thinks of Mad Max

533
00:43:24,257 --> 00:43:30,717
and they think of something that's kind of terrifying. Um, is this the wrong way to think

534
00:43:30,717 --> 00:43:40,897
about anarchy? Is there a more pleasant outcome? If Bitcoin fixes the money problem and Noster

535
00:43:40,897 --> 00:43:47,397
fixes the communication problem, so the propaganda and the censorship problem, then

536
00:43:47,397 --> 00:43:58,677
is anarchy the natural outcome? And what does that type of anarchy at scale look like?

537
00:44:00,717 --> 00:44:02,177
Yeah, anarchy is a scary word.

538
00:44:02,177 --> 00:44:05,037
And I think that just shows you how deep the mind control is.

539
00:44:05,697 --> 00:44:08,677
Because a synonym for it is peace.

540
00:44:09,777 --> 00:44:11,437
So what is an anarchic world?

541
00:44:11,517 --> 00:44:12,317
It's a peaceful world.

542
00:44:12,797 --> 00:44:16,297
So anarchy comes from the Greek or part of it.

543
00:44:16,477 --> 00:44:21,737
That there's a prefix, an, meaning without or the absence of.

544
00:44:22,157 --> 00:44:25,297
And the suffix, archon, which means king or ruler.

545
00:44:26,017 --> 00:44:29,717
So fundamentally, it's the concept of no masters and no slaves.

546
00:44:29,717 --> 00:44:37,997
and a archonist is a king who wants to rule over other subjects while an unarchonist is someone who

547
00:44:37,997 --> 00:44:44,577
rejects this hierarchy and and sees you know fundamental equal spark of humanity in every soul

548
00:44:44,577 --> 00:44:51,957
and that requires them or or leads to ultimately self-ownership and you own your body and and the

549
00:44:51,957 --> 00:44:56,837
place you stand on and the things that you work for and then they are yours and then you can do

550
00:44:56,837 --> 00:45:02,337
with them as you see fit and you have the highest authority over how those resources should be

551
00:45:02,337 --> 00:45:07,797
allocated. And again, if a slave is not free to speak out against the master, he cannot use his

552
00:45:07,797 --> 00:45:15,237
vocal cords to voice a dissenting opinion. And so ultimately, anarchy is the opposite of slavery.

553
00:45:16,157 --> 00:45:24,757
And the fact that most people associated with mayhem and violence is telling. But it is by

554
00:45:24,757 --> 00:45:30,337
definition the opposite right if someone steals from you he proclaims that he's the king over you

555
00:45:30,337 --> 00:45:37,017
and your your goods and and he can do it without your consent right that that is by definition not

556
00:45:37,017 --> 00:45:44,157
anarchy right so christ was the biggest anarchist right jesus was uh and and many religious teachings

557
00:45:44,157 --> 00:45:50,597
ultimately come back to this of just don't steal from your neighbor you know live peacefully uh and

558
00:45:50,597 --> 00:45:56,637
and and love each other in this way that is uh yeah fundamentally what what anarchy is about so

559
00:45:56,637 --> 00:46:03,597
yeah i i hope we will reach a much larger state of anarchy in this world it would be a blissful

560
00:46:03,597 --> 00:46:09,517
thing but but i also realized that there is so much anarchy in in everyday life like our

561
00:46:09,517 --> 00:46:14,857
conversation right now right none of us is is trying to lure over each other and and try to

562
00:46:14,857 --> 00:46:19,377
dominate him we're just sitting together and having a conversation right there there is no

563
00:46:19,377 --> 00:46:24,877
ruler here there is no master here we're just peers having fun and and that is anarchy right

564
00:46:24,877 --> 00:46:30,577
and and you see that everywhere like whenever you go and buy a piece of bread from the bakery

565
00:46:30,577 --> 00:46:37,417
that is ultimately an anarchy itself right here there's two consenting adults coming together and

566
00:46:37,417 --> 00:46:42,877
helping each other right one wants to have money the other wants to have bread and they trade and

567
00:46:42,877 --> 00:46:48,457
so both are better off ultimately and and because they are both better off they they choose to do

568
00:46:48,457 --> 00:46:54,817
this voluntarily without anyone telling them that they have to so yeah anarchy is actually something

569
00:46:54,817 --> 00:47:00,597
quite beautiful does it does there not have to be an archon though to secure our bodies from

570
00:47:00,597 --> 00:47:08,637
aggression against other people someone who imposes the law thou shalt not steal thou shalt not

571
00:47:08,637 --> 00:47:15,317
aggress and enforces it we can say i can say i own myself but if my neighbor doesn't respect that

572
00:47:15,317 --> 00:47:22,537
the impulse is to want to call on a third party, an archon, who will, you know, adjudicate that

573
00:47:22,537 --> 00:47:27,197
and determine what the just result is? And how does anarchy bring in an archon

574
00:47:27,197 --> 00:47:30,317
to mediate that relationship between others who are aggressors?

575
00:47:32,097 --> 00:47:35,417
Yeah, that's a really good question. And ultimately, I would say that

576
00:47:35,417 --> 00:47:42,597
the responsibility of justice is with the victim, right? He has the ultimate authority

577
00:47:42,597 --> 00:47:45,997
over what should be done about this crime.

578
00:47:47,117 --> 00:47:48,717
And this extends, for example,

579
00:47:48,817 --> 00:47:50,677
if the victim wants to be merciful,

580
00:47:51,497 --> 00:47:55,017
then nobody else should be able to harm the person

581
00:47:55,017 --> 00:47:58,097
that was forgiven by the actual victim.

582
00:47:59,257 --> 00:48:02,737
And obviously, you alone are, well,

583
00:48:03,177 --> 00:48:05,257
a lonely and miserable creature, right?

584
00:48:05,257 --> 00:48:08,237
So you alone will not accomplish anything substantial,

585
00:48:08,617 --> 00:48:09,997
let alone bring justice.

586
00:48:09,997 --> 00:48:26,357
So naturally, we humans collaborate and help each other out. And I see in a free society where ultimately the responsibility and the ability or like the authority to proclaim the justice is rooted in the victim.

587
00:48:26,357 --> 00:48:30,977
and it can then be abdicated via contract, for example, to others.

588
00:48:31,597 --> 00:48:35,637
So let's say someone steals 100 gold coins from you,

589
00:48:36,217 --> 00:48:39,397
then you can go to someone else and be like,

590
00:48:39,397 --> 00:48:46,257
hey, if you get the money back, I will give you a part of it.

591
00:48:46,737 --> 00:48:49,697
And now the question is, if someone approaches you like,

592
00:48:49,757 --> 00:48:52,177
hey, this guy stole from me, go and get him.

593
00:48:53,037 --> 00:48:55,257
What if you just blindly follow those orders?

594
00:48:55,257 --> 00:48:57,517
and it turns out that the first guy was lying,

595
00:48:58,197 --> 00:48:59,617
then you are the aggressor.

596
00:49:00,137 --> 00:49:02,957
So just because you think that you're coming to justice

597
00:49:02,957 --> 00:49:05,677
might actually be that you're the aggressor, right?

598
00:49:05,677 --> 00:49:08,437
Because any initiation of force is a crime.

599
00:49:09,017 --> 00:49:10,537
And so whenever you apply force,

600
00:49:10,597 --> 00:49:12,597
you have to be really careful and considerate

601
00:49:12,597 --> 00:49:14,377
if you're applying it justly.

602
00:49:15,097 --> 00:49:19,417
And the question of if the force application is justified

603
00:49:19,417 --> 00:49:21,697
is an extremely nuanced one, right?

604
00:49:21,737 --> 00:49:23,197
It's just bloody hard.

605
00:49:23,197 --> 00:49:28,017
like people have different opinions and different recollections and nobody was really there

606
00:49:28,017 --> 00:49:34,437
so it's it's tough to to be certain here and so i i will imagine that there will be specialists

607
00:49:34,437 --> 00:49:40,997
who who emerge naturally as being people in a community that can be trusted to to hear a case

608
00:49:40,997 --> 00:49:47,357
thoroughly and and to to speak their mind on on if this is a crime or not and what the just

609
00:49:47,357 --> 00:49:54,077
reaction should be. And then from there, I also see that there are specialists who specialize in

610
00:49:54,077 --> 00:50:03,877
violence and force to then apply just retribution to the crime that was committed and the person who

611
00:50:03,877 --> 00:50:11,117
did. And so there's absolutely a way that we can bring justice to criminals without becoming

612
00:50:11,117 --> 00:50:16,077
criminals ourselves. It's a bit of a tautology, right, of a circular reasoning to say that, oh,

613
00:50:16,077 --> 00:50:21,797
like we shouldn't steal, but we need someone that steals in order to prevent us from stealing.

614
00:50:22,117 --> 00:50:24,317
Right. That's no, we just shouldn't steal.

615
00:50:24,317 --> 00:50:34,197
And even difficult problems as the deliverance of justice or maybe especially such difficult problems must not be rested in the authority of one single provider.

616
00:50:34,497 --> 00:50:43,157
Because as soon as you have this monopoly that only one person or one group of people is allowed to perform a certain service, then what's their incentive to be good?

617
00:50:43,757 --> 00:50:45,977
And if they're bad, what are you going to do?

618
00:50:45,977 --> 00:50:50,677
complain they don't care right they care if if you would move to someone else who provides a

619
00:50:50,677 --> 00:50:56,137
better service and you stop paying the original people but they have the monopoly that doesn't

620
00:50:56,137 --> 00:51:03,437
matter right that doesn't exist so the the monopoly itself i think is an incredible blocker

621
00:51:03,437 --> 00:51:10,577
in the path to success or the the solution to a problem and they would all be much better solved

622
00:51:10,577 --> 00:51:14,637
if anyone could do his best at solving the problem.

623
00:51:15,397 --> 00:51:19,217
And we have a really bad justice system at the moment.

624
00:51:19,397 --> 00:51:20,877
It's an injustice system.

625
00:51:21,277 --> 00:51:25,077
The amount of victimless crimes that are persecuted

626
00:51:25,077 --> 00:51:27,777
and people put in jail is staggering.

627
00:51:28,497 --> 00:51:30,177
And in every place, right?

628
00:51:30,177 --> 00:51:33,297
Like America is one of the worst offenders here.

629
00:51:34,637 --> 00:51:38,977
And then the amounts of actual crimes that are tolerated,

630
00:51:38,977 --> 00:51:49,017
like an insane amount of money printing or untold amount of financial fraud and Ponzi schemes and all of this that are clearly bad things to do,

631
00:51:49,557 --> 00:51:53,477
where everyone would agree that this is something that ought to be stopped.

632
00:51:54,357 --> 00:51:59,397
They don't because the criminal has collaborated with the judge.

633
00:52:00,317 --> 00:52:04,637
And that is something that in a free system would not happen.

634
00:52:04,637 --> 00:52:07,017
because sure, maybe one judge is corrupt,

635
00:52:07,497 --> 00:52:09,017
but then you just go to a different judge.

636
00:52:09,797 --> 00:52:13,177
And the judge doesn't give you complete absolution

637
00:52:13,177 --> 00:52:14,877
of whatever he says is perfect.

638
00:52:14,877 --> 00:52:16,957
The judge is just a dude.

639
00:52:17,757 --> 00:52:19,817
He's as fallible as we all are.

640
00:52:20,017 --> 00:52:21,277
And he's just giving his opinion.

641
00:52:22,277 --> 00:52:24,197
It's just that he's seen a lot of cases

642
00:52:24,197 --> 00:52:27,497
and probably his opinion is of high quality.

643
00:52:28,257 --> 00:52:30,237
And so if a good judge tells you that,

644
00:52:30,337 --> 00:52:33,037
no, this is not a victim or this is not a crime,

645
00:52:33,037 --> 00:52:41,637
then don't go seek personal just like retribution because well you might be wrong and if if you are

646
00:52:41,637 --> 00:52:47,077
wrong then other people and other judges will will judge you to have done a crime and will come after

647
00:52:47,077 --> 00:52:53,577
you or at least not do business with you anymore so does this whole does this presume then a uniform

648
00:52:53,577 --> 00:53:00,977
idea of justice that we believe theft is wrong for example a sort of christian morality you could

649
00:53:00,977 --> 00:53:05,917
have like a Nietzschean, somebody who says it is right that the strong take from the weak because

650
00:53:05,917 --> 00:53:12,517
they merit it or something like that. Does anarchy presume a cultural homogeneity to where we have

651
00:53:12,517 --> 00:53:20,917
the same conception of natural law, I guess? Another really good question. I think that

652
00:53:20,917 --> 00:53:28,937
that doesn't have to be the case, right? Like there are voluntary agreements that could be made.

653
00:53:28,937 --> 00:53:31,197
like there is voluntary communism ultimately, right?

654
00:53:31,217 --> 00:53:33,617
You could agree to live in a commune

655
00:53:33,617 --> 00:53:35,657
and not own anything and share it all.

656
00:53:35,977 --> 00:53:38,117
And in a free society, that's totally fine.

657
00:53:38,577 --> 00:53:41,357
And if you go with your friends into a village

658
00:53:41,357 --> 00:53:42,517
and start a commune,

659
00:53:42,617 --> 00:53:44,577
you're not harming anyone per se, right?

660
00:53:44,577 --> 00:53:47,697
So even with having fundamentally different

661
00:53:47,697 --> 00:53:50,957
kind of, yeah, assumptions,

662
00:53:51,677 --> 00:53:53,357
you could peacefully coexist.

663
00:53:54,837 --> 00:53:57,637
But the question of, yeah,

664
00:53:57,637 --> 00:54:05,737
I guess the reasons why someone else would steal from you is secondary to the fact that he stole.

665
00:54:06,637 --> 00:54:15,637
And yes, if there are different agreements in the sense of a group says it's okay to steal from others and another group says no, it's not.

666
00:54:16,257 --> 00:54:18,457
Well, then that's conflict ultimately.

667
00:54:19,357 --> 00:54:21,137
And conflict is always messy.

668
00:54:21,137 --> 00:54:29,097
and the question is of of you know how who would succeed out of this conflict ultimately

669
00:54:29,097 --> 00:54:35,017
right there's there's many different solutions including de-escalation and just evacuation and

670
00:54:35,017 --> 00:54:41,457
and leaving and having a separate you know existence that is certainly an opportunity but

671
00:54:41,457 --> 00:54:49,637
yeah ultimately i i think a a a just society would share a substantial overlap with this one

672
00:54:49,637 --> 00:54:51,717
basic rule of do not steal.

673
00:54:53,057 --> 00:54:59,997
Without this rule being lived and also being understood, but those two things not necessarily

674
00:54:59,997 --> 00:55:01,037
have to overlap, right?

675
00:55:01,037 --> 00:55:04,717
Like you don't need to be a philosophy major to not steal from your neighbor.

676
00:55:04,897 --> 00:55:06,637
You just need to be a decent human ultimately.

677
00:55:07,577 --> 00:55:12,217
And sure, the philosophy might eventually lead you to those conclusions.

678
00:55:12,757 --> 00:55:18,657
If we have two groups, one that has an idea of justice, that stealing is wrong, and then

679
00:55:18,657 --> 00:55:23,797
another group that has an idea of justice where the weak should take from or the strong should

680
00:55:23,797 --> 00:55:28,957
take from the weak. That's kind of international law, right? And how does anarchy work on the

681
00:55:28,957 --> 00:55:35,037
international stage? Don't you need an archon to coordinate the defense to prevent the anarchic

682
00:55:35,037 --> 00:55:40,757
society from being gobbled up by the autocratic one that believes we can invade the anarchic

683
00:55:40,757 --> 00:55:46,337
society and take all of their things on the international law stage, international stage,

684
00:55:46,337 --> 00:55:47,717
rather not to presume international law.

685
00:55:47,797 --> 00:55:49,117
On the international stage,

686
00:55:49,117 --> 00:55:57,297
there is no one kind of presumed justice, I guess,

687
00:55:57,357 --> 00:55:58,557
if there are competing groups

688
00:55:58,557 --> 00:56:00,417
with different styles of justice.

689
00:56:00,977 --> 00:56:04,337
So does the anarchist society need

690
00:56:04,337 --> 00:56:05,517
to be able to defend itself?

691
00:56:05,597 --> 00:56:08,217
And do you need an archon, a ruler to do that

692
00:56:08,217 --> 00:56:11,397
and to establish one archon overall

693
00:56:11,397 --> 00:56:14,197
so that we don't have two A and B societies

694
00:56:14,197 --> 00:56:19,377
with b devouring a and b having the conception of justice that the strong should take from the weak

695
00:56:19,377 --> 00:56:26,277
this is like stuff from like thrasymachus in the republic i think saying um you should take what

696
00:56:26,277 --> 00:56:34,677
you can as long as you can get away with it yeah ultimately i think the the the larger the group

697
00:56:34,677 --> 00:56:42,077
of of peaceful people the the better right um great and that that of course then comes on on

698
00:56:42,077 --> 00:56:49,257
question of how yeah on on the global scale right how how do other groups of people perceive you and

699
00:56:49,257 --> 00:56:57,277
what do they do and that is again a kind of a question of of macro politics or economics right

700
00:56:57,277 --> 00:57:06,617
so it's it's difficult to speak in like broad terms um ultimately though we we see that especially

701
00:57:06,617 --> 00:57:11,237
on the international scale, there is no archon, right?

702
00:57:11,297 --> 00:57:13,457
There is no highest authority.

703
00:57:14,357 --> 00:57:16,677
You know, there are certain countries

704
00:57:16,677 --> 00:57:18,157
that are massively powerful,

705
00:57:18,497 --> 00:57:20,057
but mainly in their region,

706
00:57:20,677 --> 00:57:23,997
and only very sporadically on the other side of the planet.

707
00:57:24,997 --> 00:57:28,157
And most just are local territories

708
00:57:28,157 --> 00:57:30,677
that have their local monopolies.

709
00:57:31,577 --> 00:57:33,037
And things like international trade

710
00:57:33,037 --> 00:57:34,837
has functioned in this since forever.

711
00:57:34,837 --> 00:57:46,317
The law of the high seas is still a very neutral law code that ultimately gives the captain of a ship full authority of that ship.

712
00:57:47,357 --> 00:57:55,377
And there's no higher person than the captain compared to another.

713
00:57:56,077 --> 00:57:58,837
So, yeah, these are...

714
00:57:58,837 --> 00:57:59,737
Yeah.

715
00:58:01,237 --> 00:58:02,617
Am I back?

716
00:58:02,617 --> 00:58:02,897
Okay.

717
00:58:03,677 --> 00:58:04,137
Yeah, you're back.

718
00:58:04,837 --> 00:58:18,397
You're back. Yeah. You've referenced Christ. You talked about Noster perhaps creating a world that looks more godly. And, you know, the commandment of thou shalt not steal.

719
00:58:18,397 --> 00:58:25,817
as I get deeper and deeper into Bitcoin, I feel both closer and closer to God. And I also start

720
00:58:25,817 --> 00:58:36,417
to question myself for having such reverence for something that is money, money being, you know,

721
00:58:36,417 --> 00:58:45,797
the root of all evil. We spoke with Ardian, who's been kind enough to share some things about

722
00:58:45,797 --> 00:58:52,337
uh, canonic.xyz and just kind of the way that they think. And he really kind of stunned us both

723
00:58:52,337 --> 00:58:59,977
in a message where he said, remember Bitcoin is the enemy. And I kind of asked him to explain that.

724
00:58:59,977 --> 00:59:09,337
And basically as a fervent supporter of Bitcoin, he's also recognizing that, um, we can always take

725
00:59:09,337 --> 00:59:16,057
the technology too far and in doing so erode, I guess, our humanity.

726
00:59:18,237 --> 00:59:24,977
And I guess so my question to you is like, what is, you speak about religion very, very

727
00:59:24,977 --> 00:59:34,197
fluently. Do you have a relationship with a God? Do you believe in a higher power? And

728
00:59:34,197 --> 00:59:39,797
how has that changed as you've gone deeper and deeper into freedom technology?

729
00:59:41,717 --> 00:59:47,937
Yeah, I was raised Christian, but was never much a fan of kind of the institutionalized church.

730
00:59:48,457 --> 00:59:54,897
And then, you know, ultimately started to conclude that I guess my religion is anarchy,

731
00:59:55,497 --> 01:00:02,617
kind of the one commandment, do not steal. I do believe that to be, you know, a divine

732
01:00:02,617 --> 01:00:14,777
law ultimately um but yeah i'm not that you know well-versed in theology so to say but uh it's

733
01:00:14,777 --> 01:00:20,757
you know something that i definitely believe that there are you know judgments and consequences to

734
01:00:20,757 --> 01:00:29,237
your action and um like both karmic as well as economic and and ultimately that you know the

735
01:00:29,237 --> 01:00:31,137
the thief steals from himself as well.

736
01:00:32,057 --> 01:00:37,597
This is something that we would all live in such a better world

737
01:00:37,597 --> 01:00:40,217
if we would all just stop stealing.

738
01:00:40,577 --> 01:00:45,017
The benefit that we could gain way outweighs the loot

739
01:00:45,017 --> 01:00:46,357
that any person could take.

740
01:00:47,577 --> 01:00:52,357
So it's, yeah, that aspect is certainly a faith or a belief.

741
01:00:53,657 --> 01:00:53,797
Yeah.

742
01:00:54,037 --> 01:00:56,257
And so I wanted to jump on that question too

743
01:00:56,257 --> 01:00:57,697
because Bitcoin is the enemy.

744
01:00:57,697 --> 01:01:02,697
is such like a zen cohen for me it's like when you hear a bitcoin maximal maximalist or somebody

745
01:01:02,697 --> 01:01:07,657
who is deep in bitcoin say bitcoin is the enemy it's like they're recognizing the power of it

746
01:01:07,657 --> 01:01:12,977
it's like oppenheimer seeing the bomb drop and knowing they need to make the bomb but knowing

747
01:01:12,977 --> 01:01:19,617
that what comes after the bomb is a new thing and i'm wondering um maybe considering it as a cohen

748
01:01:19,617 --> 01:01:26,657
that sort or even considering maybe like once the fee like once fiat machinery is dismantled once

749
01:01:26,657 --> 01:01:34,277
the state that makes that possible is dismantled. Is there a stage beyond Bitcoin, beyond Nostr,

750
01:01:34,277 --> 01:01:41,537
that we need to strive towards the next thing and to see that that then in a sense becomes the enemy

751
01:01:41,537 --> 01:01:46,837
and we have to find another thing to move beyond that even closer to maybe what you would see as

752
01:01:46,837 --> 01:01:54,377
true anarchy, if that makes sense. Yeah, this is, I think, something that we can only strive towards.

753
01:01:54,377 --> 01:01:56,117
We can never really reach the end goal.

754
01:01:57,137 --> 01:02:00,217
Their human life is just messy and complex.

755
01:02:00,597 --> 01:02:04,317
And none of us really knows what they're doing, ultimately.

756
01:02:05,657 --> 01:02:11,897
And yeah, I doubt that we will reach the end point, so to say.

757
01:02:12,577 --> 01:02:15,677
There will always be new questions that need to be asked.

758
01:02:16,397 --> 01:02:19,857
There will always be an interplay of technologies that are novel.

759
01:02:19,857 --> 01:02:35,755
and kind of a path dependence of some things are only possible after a certain technology has been achieved And then everything changes and we need to reevaluate it So Bitcoin is not a panacea It not utopia

760
01:02:36,475 --> 01:02:42,235
And it addresses a lot of issues that were there in the past.

761
01:02:42,235 --> 01:02:43,335
And yes, they are fixed.

762
01:02:43,835 --> 01:02:45,895
But they come with trade-offs.

763
01:02:46,675 --> 01:02:49,995
And we're still grappling with those.

764
01:02:49,995 --> 01:02:55,595
and it's not guaranteed for bitcoin or for anything to be a success.

765
01:02:56,195 --> 01:03:01,635
It depends on an uncountable amount of data points and actions

766
01:03:01,635 --> 01:03:03,895
that none of us can foresee.

767
01:03:04,515 --> 01:03:08,655
We might have good guesses on the trend and the direction,

768
01:03:09,555 --> 01:03:14,775
but the long-run consequences are like Satoshi didn't know

769
01:03:14,775 --> 01:03:16,635
that something like this would happen.

770
01:03:16,635 --> 01:03:23,855
He maybe had a couple different visions and glimpses of what might be, but certainly not for certain.

771
01:03:24,535 --> 01:03:27,015
And that will continue to happen.

772
01:03:27,375 --> 01:03:39,315
And that is challenging for developers and builders too, because the people who build the early internets, the Facebooks, the Googles, the Amazon, they were on a good mission.

773
01:03:39,315 --> 01:03:46,455
on decreasing friction and increasing the availability of things and the communication.

774
01:03:47,355 --> 01:03:50,655
These were all valuable and good problems to be solved.

775
01:03:51,655 --> 01:03:55,975
And I'm sure early enthusiasts were having rose-colored glasses

776
01:03:55,975 --> 01:04:01,835
and being overly optimistic and enthusiastic about the upsides of the technology

777
01:04:01,835 --> 01:04:03,955
while downplaying the downsides.

778
01:04:03,955 --> 01:04:10,555
and that has now in the long run led to an incredible amount being achieved

779
01:04:10,555 --> 01:04:18,195
but the modern internet is a miracle it like let's be real um but it also just has so many

780
01:04:18,195 --> 01:04:22,175
new problems that are introduced now that we didn't have to worry about in in the past

781
01:04:22,175 --> 01:04:29,455
and so many things have just been like exponentiated right things are so much larger now

782
01:04:29,455 --> 01:04:37,515
And at such an insane scale, like Facebook's growth as a company is limited by the amount of people being born on the planet.

783
01:04:37,955 --> 01:04:40,155
Like that's just crazy.

784
01:04:41,875 --> 01:04:53,815
And the builders of technology have an immense amount of responsibility because culture comes after technology.

785
01:04:53,815 --> 01:05:00,675
The tools we use fundamentally shape us and how we act and collaborate with others.

786
01:05:01,435 --> 01:05:08,395
And so making mistakes in the foundations will get worse and worse as we are building on top.

787
01:05:09,335 --> 01:05:21,175
And I guess that's why Bitcoin and Noster is so interesting, because it fundamentally questions those very, very deep assumptions and removes them and puts something else in place.

788
01:05:21,175 --> 01:05:28,975
And now we are seeing the long-term consequences of those new set of assumptions that we've added.

789
01:05:29,735 --> 01:05:34,135
And, you know, first of all, maybe the assumptions are wrong, right?

790
01:05:34,515 --> 01:05:44,535
Like maybe this whole idea of sovereign individuals and, you know, like self-ownership and censorship resistance, maybe that's bad, right?

791
01:05:44,555 --> 01:05:48,715
Maybe that we started at the very wrong place in the first place.

792
01:05:48,715 --> 01:05:55,835
But then much more likely is we just took a wrong path somewhere up on that thing that we were building on top.

793
01:05:56,535 --> 01:06:00,435
And those small minor mistakes eventually add up.

794
01:06:00,935 --> 01:06:06,575
And so in 30 years from now, who knows what the next generation will think about Bitcoin and what we've built.

795
01:06:07,435 --> 01:06:11,055
They might be thankful for some aspects for it, probably not of all.

796
01:06:11,235 --> 01:06:16,035
And I'm sure that they would have done it differently, knowing everything that they know later.

797
01:06:16,035 --> 01:06:23,655
um but ultimately we we just have to try right and and and do things and and build things and

798
01:06:23,655 --> 01:06:30,555
be be aware of the immense magnitude of our actions that that they ripple through eternity

799
01:06:30,555 --> 01:06:37,995
ultimately and then still not get paralyzed with that insane responsibility but keep

800
01:06:37,995 --> 01:06:46,015
keep doing our best with with every step so in the movie dune the uh the line that everyone takes

801
01:06:46,015 --> 01:06:52,195
away is that fear is the mind killer and i'm i'm listening to napoleon hill's book outwitting the

802
01:06:52,195 --> 01:06:57,795
devil right now where there's an interview that the author has with the devil and the devil

803
01:06:57,795 --> 01:07:05,835
shares his secret that that hell is not something that occurs afterlife that hell is something that

804
01:07:05,835 --> 01:07:13,755
lives inside the mind in this life. And that the only way that you get to that is to have fear and

805
01:07:13,755 --> 01:07:20,955
fear of scarcity, fear of lost love and ill health and old age and criticism and death.

806
01:07:21,215 --> 01:07:29,075
That when you allow fear into your mind, you allow the devil into your mind and it does not

807
01:07:29,075 --> 01:07:37,435
leave space for positivity. And so I've been thinking about, you know, fear is evil. Fear is

808
01:07:37,435 --> 01:07:47,135
the devil. Positivity is good. Positivity is God. And you, I know that we haven't, we didn't know

809
01:07:47,135 --> 01:07:53,035
each other before this conversation, but I did do a decent amount of research to learn about you.

810
01:07:53,035 --> 01:08:04,555
And you are a fearless individual with the ideas that you put to the world, the way that you live your life on a Bitcoin standard, on a Noster standard.

811
01:08:06,115 --> 01:08:15,395
What are the thoughts that you consistently remind yourself to keep at the top of mind so as not to let fear in?

812
01:08:15,395 --> 01:08:36,175
What are the things that you, like you said, that fear can be paralyzing, but knowing that our actions will ripple through eternity, what is that driving force, these positive things that you remind yourself on a daily basis to move forward and continue living fearlessly?

813
01:08:36,175 --> 01:08:46,915
hmm i'm i'm thinking that some something as foundational as fear since it has been around for

814
01:08:46,915 --> 01:08:54,895
god knows how many years is probably useful right like there there's a reason why we have it so i'm

815
01:08:54,895 --> 01:09:01,215
not sure if it is all out a negative thing i think fear can be an enormous motivator

816
01:09:01,215 --> 01:09:07,295
because to be honest i am afraid like i i am afraid of the horror that humans can can manifest

817
01:09:07,295 --> 01:09:17,715
on this world um and seemingly without stop like that's that's terrifying so the the the trick i

818
01:09:17,715 --> 01:09:25,335
guess is to also have hope and that that i'm extremely hopeful of what humans can achieve

819
01:09:25,335 --> 01:09:33,615
Like even in our current state with all the mess that we're in, what we have achieved is mind-blowingly amazing.

820
01:09:34,235 --> 01:09:43,675
And so that combination of a fear of imagining how bad it could be.

821
01:09:43,815 --> 01:09:54,355
And if shit hits the fan, if everything goes as bad as it could, if we all purposely work towards destruction and terror, like it could get really bad.

822
01:09:54,355 --> 01:10:10,075
And that's something that I'm afraid of, ultimately. But on the other hand, there is the hope of what could we build if we get our act together, if we all point upwards and in the right direction and help each other and do amazing things.

823
01:10:10,075 --> 01:10:19,235
and that combination that that duality is an insane motivator to me um it's a bit like maybe

824
01:10:19,235 --> 01:10:26,535
i'm not sure if bipolar is the right term but it's it's so so extreme on on both sides

825
01:10:26,535 --> 01:10:35,415
that it's yeah it it it really motivates me ultimately um what what is also important though

826
01:10:35,415 --> 01:10:42,935
just there are good reasons to be afraid of right and and there are people out to get you

827
01:10:42,935 --> 01:10:50,335
and being aware of that also means that you can prepare and so i think a lot of bitcoiners who

828
01:10:50,335 --> 01:10:56,475
have both this fear of of how bad the fiat system is you know specifically for bitcoin or money

829
01:10:56,475 --> 01:11:02,895
and then the opportunity of how amazing a bitcoin standard would be and that hope that that is an

830
01:11:02,895 --> 01:11:06,735
immense motivation and it motivates us to prepare ultimately.

831
01:11:07,395 --> 01:11:11,595
And preparation is also a fear killer ultimately,

832
01:11:11,895 --> 01:11:17,055
because if you are prepared and you have removed this uneasiness and uncertainty

833
01:11:17,355 --> 01:11:23,475
of what might come in the future and how do I engage it, that helps of calming you.

834
01:11:24,075 --> 01:11:29,515
So that's one of the great lines of Ludwig von Mises,

835
01:11:29,515 --> 01:11:37,655
the economist is that money is a tool to remove uneasiness and to knowing that I have an amount

836
01:11:37,655 --> 01:11:44,735
of capital that I can trade with whomever, whenever, for whatever, I can solve any problem,

837
01:11:44,935 --> 01:11:52,475
basically, given that amount of capital. But that is something that I think the world needs a bit

838
01:11:52,475 --> 01:11:59,075
more of. Not just the hope that Bitcoin gives you, but also that soothing of the uneasiness

839
01:11:59,075 --> 01:12:02,835
and the ultimate fear that is quite common nowadays.

840
01:12:03,855 --> 01:12:06,495
So yeah, I do think that that combination

841
01:12:06,495 --> 01:12:07,555
is extremely powerful.

842
01:12:08,895 --> 01:12:09,955
Yeah, I think I spoke wrong.

843
01:12:10,055 --> 01:12:12,155
I think instead of saying that you live fearlessly,

844
01:12:12,275 --> 01:12:14,035
I should have said that you live courageously,

845
01:12:14,035 --> 01:12:16,315
which is to act in the face of fear,

846
01:12:16,595 --> 01:12:19,235
I think would probably be a better way to put it.

847
01:12:19,495 --> 01:12:20,795
Yeah. What do you have?

848
01:12:21,035 --> 01:12:24,115
And to some extent, I'm just more afraid

849
01:12:24,115 --> 01:12:26,295
of the inaction as well,

850
01:12:26,455 --> 01:12:27,815
because inaction is an action.

851
01:12:27,815 --> 01:12:34,875
And we're in such a precarious time and peculiar time where it seems extremely unique.

852
01:12:35,055 --> 01:12:41,255
Like the set of circumstances that surrounds us at this moment is extremely potent.

853
01:12:41,815 --> 01:12:46,975
And maybe it's the last opportunity of this type that we get.

854
01:12:47,255 --> 01:12:51,755
And then not doing anything about it would have been devastating.

855
01:12:51,755 --> 01:13:00,035
yeah i i'm i mean i'm certainly guilty of the inaction of of you know many bitcoiners which

856
01:13:00,035 --> 01:13:08,675
is to wait for the number to go up which is to wait for to wait for fiat to die um and to

857
01:13:08,675 --> 01:13:17,235
maybe pay less attention to how i take action in the world in the meantime um to have i've heard

858
01:13:17,235 --> 01:13:22,975
patience described as the definition of patience is finding something to do in the meantime,

859
01:13:23,175 --> 01:13:29,515
while you wait for that great thing to appear. And I think that's very beautiful. I did want to ask

860
01:13:29,515 --> 01:13:37,455
you, you in another interview, you noted that Crypto Economics is the best book ever written

861
01:13:37,455 --> 01:13:44,715
on Bitcoin. Do you still feel that way? And why is it that you feel that way? What is it about

862
01:13:44,715 --> 01:13:50,095
this? Did it just hit you at a time in your life that you were really ready for it? Or,

863
01:13:50,095 --> 01:13:56,095
yeah, what, what, what inside this book really changed the way you think about the world?

864
01:13:57,555 --> 01:14:02,355
Yeah, it is still the best, the best book written about Bitcoin. And I think by far.

865
01:14:03,435 --> 01:14:12,095
And that is because it's a very peculiar author with a very particular set of skills

866
01:14:12,095 --> 01:14:21,555
that I don't know anyone else who has mastered both the computer science of Bitcoin as well as

867
01:14:21,555 --> 01:14:30,355
the economics of Bitcoin. Usually people are bad at both. There's a couple who are, you know,

868
01:14:30,955 --> 01:14:37,955
top of the class in one of these and they have no idea about the other. And there's maybe two

869
01:14:37,955 --> 01:14:43,035
two people that I would classify as having reached mastery on both.

870
01:14:43,675 --> 01:14:45,875
And Eric Woskiel is the leader of those two.

871
01:14:47,015 --> 01:14:53,735
And I say that because he has articulated so clearly and so deeply understood Bitcoin

872
01:14:53,735 --> 01:15:02,415
in such a useful and counterintuitive way that it helped me a lot.

873
01:15:02,415 --> 01:15:10,075
To really understand what mining is about and why Bitcoin is decentralized and stay-centered resistance.

874
01:15:10,535 --> 01:15:13,515
Just on this technical aspect, he's phenomenal.

875
01:15:14,355 --> 01:15:24,555
But also on the economic lens, there were three major foundational axioms introduced to Austrian economic thought.

876
01:15:25,415 --> 01:15:30,035
The first one was by Ludwig von Mises, the axiom of action.

877
01:15:30,035 --> 01:15:39,035
So humans act purposefully, they behave in a way that they can achieve their goals by allocating their resources at their disposal.

878
01:15:40,395 --> 01:15:52,375
And out of this one starting point, Mises can deduce the entire praxeology and catalactics of economic theory, which is mind-blowing, right, with basically one starting point.

879
01:15:52,815 --> 01:15:58,255
Something that no other thinker has done in the past and with incredible success.

880
01:15:58,255 --> 01:16:05,495
but Mises was always very careful to be value free as he called it to not impose a value judgment

881
01:16:05,495 --> 01:16:13,415
on an economic concept like he would not say that a minimum wage is bad and should not be done

882
01:16:13,415 --> 01:16:20,455
right he would say that a minimum wage leads to unemployment and that is a proper praxeological

883
01:16:20,455 --> 01:16:22,535
analysis of that sentence.

884
01:16:23,795 --> 01:16:32,255
Then next was Hans-Hermann Hoppe, which introduced the axiom of argumentation, which basically

885
01:16:32,255 --> 01:16:40,795
says that people can argue and discover truth, but there is a presupposition in argumentation,

886
01:16:41,355 --> 01:16:43,495
and that is ultimately self-ownership.

887
01:16:43,995 --> 01:16:49,855
Hoppe's main argument is that in order to argue, you're presupposing certain things

888
01:16:49,855 --> 01:16:55,635
like you control your body and have exclusive ownership of your body, your vocal cords, and the place you stand on.

889
01:16:56,635 --> 01:17:02,515
And therefore, you cannot rationally argue that someone else does not have property rights

890
01:17:02,515 --> 01:17:09,655
because you're performing a contradiction in the fact that you're arguing that the other person is a slave.

891
01:17:09,655 --> 01:17:13,935
You are using your own vocal cords in a self-sovereign way, ultimately.

892
01:17:13,935 --> 01:17:33,795
And from this, he very elegantly deduces an entire emphasis of ethical conclusions. And so I believe he famously dismantled this famous you cannot derive an ought from an is fallacy. And he does come to the conclusion, ultimately, that you ought not to steal.

893
01:17:33,795 --> 01:17:44,775
And if you agree that you own yourself, then you ought not to steal from others because stealing is that performative contradiction that you claim not to do.

894
01:17:45,615 --> 01:17:52,955
So this gives us an entire thought of ethics to be discussed logically and I think objectively.

895
01:17:54,315 --> 01:18:00,855
So here I do believe in natural law or natural rights and they are objective.

896
01:18:01,115 --> 01:18:01,775
They are eternal.

897
01:18:01,955 --> 01:18:02,895
They are not man-made.

898
01:18:02,895 --> 01:18:05,355
we've just discovered them and they are the truth

899
01:18:05,355 --> 01:18:07,275
you own yourself that's a fact

900
01:18:07,275 --> 01:18:10,235
and then

901
01:18:10,235 --> 01:18:13,815
that was the state of Austrian economics

902
01:18:13,815 --> 01:18:15,555
for the last 40 years or something

903
01:18:15,555 --> 01:18:17,795
and in this book

904
01:18:17,795 --> 01:18:21,415
Voskul introduces the axiom of resistance

905
01:18:21,415 --> 01:18:25,175
and it's a bit of a different

906
01:18:25,175 --> 01:18:27,735
type of axiom than the previous two

907
01:18:27,735 --> 01:18:30,635
but ultimately it means that

908
01:18:30,635 --> 01:18:36,435
if you are analyzing a resistant system, then you need to assume that resistance is possible.

909
01:18:37,935 --> 01:18:44,315
And so this is an assumption that most people, the majority of people, reject.

910
01:18:45,195 --> 01:18:51,895
The first answer to you telling someone about Bitcoin is, well, what if the government bans it?

911
01:18:53,175 --> 01:18:57,515
Presupposing that resistance is futile, that you cannot resist the government.

912
01:18:57,515 --> 01:19:07,615
And if that is your starting point, you will never understand Bitcoin. It does not make sense, because why would people do it? They cannot resist.

913
01:19:07,615 --> 01:19:29,455
And so by him articulating this as a foundational axiom that we have to agree upon in order to have a proper conversation, he is then able to deduce an entire apparatus of security and technology that builds on top of and intervenes with those previous two axioms.

914
01:19:29,455 --> 01:19:51,055
So this is why I think it's such a next level book, because it doesn't just explain what Bitcoin is. It meaningfully and fundamentally advances very, very deep epistemological and methodological insights that were so far disregarded by previous thinkers.

915
01:19:51,055 --> 01:19:54,595
and with him articulating precisely on this,

916
01:19:55,135 --> 01:19:57,455
he can build a rock solid definition

917
01:19:57,455 --> 01:19:58,755
and understanding of Bitcoin

918
01:19:58,755 --> 01:20:02,955
that previously, basically nobody really understood.

919
01:20:04,295 --> 01:20:05,535
That's incredible.

920
01:20:06,255 --> 01:20:07,955
I thank you so much for that.

921
01:20:08,495 --> 01:20:10,275
Neither one of us has read it yet,

922
01:20:10,515 --> 01:20:13,515
but it's now, we decided to put it on the list

923
01:20:13,515 --> 01:20:15,315
in order to review for the podcast

924
01:20:15,315 --> 01:20:17,995
because as a result of hearing you talk about it

925
01:20:17,995 --> 01:20:18,955
with Efrat Finningsen,

926
01:20:19,895 --> 01:20:21,115
I kind of looked it up.

927
01:20:21,155 --> 01:20:26,055
And some of the other things that you mentioned, like what has the government done to our money

928
01:20:26,055 --> 01:20:28,835
is just so beautiful and short and informative.

929
01:20:29,315 --> 01:20:29,415
Yeah.

930
01:20:29,495 --> 01:20:31,715
I do want to give you the option to dip out.

931
01:20:31,835 --> 01:20:33,955
I know that we had you scheduled for, I think it was an hour.

932
01:20:34,235 --> 01:20:37,235
I don't want to take your time if you've got better things to do.

933
01:20:37,255 --> 01:20:37,895
You certainly do.

934
01:20:38,135 --> 01:20:38,395
But yeah.

935
01:20:39,355 --> 01:20:39,555
Yeah.

936
01:20:39,655 --> 01:20:41,495
Good conversation starts three hours in.

937
01:20:41,775 --> 01:20:44,855
So I've heard you say that before and I was so excited.

938
01:20:45,155 --> 01:20:45,415
Okay.

939
01:20:45,415 --> 01:20:46,955
Grant, what do you want to hear?

940
01:20:46,955 --> 01:20:53,635
I mean, I have this is going to be if you don't want to we can even cut this if you don't want to, because it's just me annoying, like not even pushback.

941
01:20:53,695 --> 01:20:55,115
But I'm just so interested in Rothbard.

942
01:20:55,195 --> 01:21:01,675
I read some of this stuff a long time ago, but I've always just had questions about like the axioms of self-ownership.

943
01:21:01,855 --> 01:21:03,735
I mean, we are biological animals.

944
01:21:03,735 --> 01:21:06,315
We're born dependent on others.

945
01:21:06,315 --> 01:21:14,775
It's a factor of our existence that a child born into the world, I say, doesn't own themselves because they require intense care.

946
01:21:14,775 --> 01:21:18,715
They're born with the debt to the community that brings them into maturity.

947
01:21:19,195 --> 01:21:24,635
We're born needing a communal protocol we call language to give us the capacity to think.

948
01:21:24,815 --> 01:21:32,115
So some of these axioms I take as having social presuppositions that they don't take into account.

949
01:21:32,215 --> 01:21:44,055
The social presupposition of the language community a person is part of, the cultural community, and also their dependence as a biological organism through stages of dependency as a child and also disability.

950
01:21:44,775 --> 01:21:46,635
as an elderly person.

951
01:21:46,775 --> 01:21:49,915
So those are, again, I mean, that's not arguing with you.

952
01:21:50,015 --> 01:21:50,695
It's just my own.

953
01:21:50,795 --> 01:21:53,115
I'm trying to, as I'm trying to work out praxeology

954
01:21:53,115 --> 01:21:55,795
and make it make sense in my own philosophical framework.

955
01:21:55,895 --> 01:21:58,395
So I don't know if you've thought about those issues or.

956
01:22:00,275 --> 01:22:03,535
Yeah, the case of children is a difficult one.

957
01:22:04,615 --> 01:22:08,235
But I think for any mode of thought, ultimately.

958
01:22:09,115 --> 01:22:12,415
And I think praxeology has a really elegant insight in this,

959
01:22:12,415 --> 01:22:17,635
that children are very different from adults, absolutely,

960
01:22:18,395 --> 01:22:20,315
but they have the potential to be adults.

961
01:22:21,095 --> 01:22:24,535
And that potential anchors their humanity, ultimately,

962
01:22:25,235 --> 01:22:28,435
because all of us were children in the past.

963
01:22:29,015 --> 01:22:31,875
So if we would violate the right of a child,

964
01:22:32,495 --> 01:22:34,035
that is, again, a performative contradiction

965
01:22:34,035 --> 01:22:35,415
of we were children ourselves.

966
01:22:35,875 --> 01:22:38,735
We're presuming a right that someone else does not have.

967
01:22:39,015 --> 01:22:41,335
And that obviously falls on its face.

968
01:22:41,335 --> 01:22:50,295
um so children are kind of stewarded by their parents primarily and the broader community

969
01:22:50,295 --> 01:22:56,875
but they are not owned by the parents and the the parents are stewards but but not owners you know

970
01:22:56,875 --> 01:23:01,975
there there is a difference yeah and that's primarily because well children are humans too

971
01:23:01,975 --> 01:23:08,275
and they will grow up to to be full-fledged adults yeah no i love that idea of a steward because

972
01:23:08,275 --> 01:23:13,915
the older I get, and you talked about, you know, at the core of the issue, philosophically speaking,

973
01:23:13,915 --> 01:23:19,935
is what is the meaning of life? What does it mean to live a good life? The older I get, it seems to

974
01:23:19,993 --> 01:23:26,073
in things like taking on unchosen duties and living a life of imposed obligations that one

975
01:23:26,073 --> 01:23:32,493
did not choose, those to children, to segments of society that for reasons of mental disability

976
01:23:32,493 --> 01:23:37,873
or physical disability can't care for themselves, and that we have these duties as a result of

977
01:23:37,873 --> 01:23:42,933
unchosen networks we're born into that we call family, that we call the particular community

978
01:23:42,933 --> 01:23:49,133
that we are a part of by virtue of birth and not by virtue of autonomy, autonomous choice as to

979
01:23:49,133 --> 01:23:54,533
having been a member, like you didn't choose where you were born, what you were socialized

980
01:23:54,533 --> 01:23:55,773
into, things like that.

981
01:23:55,893 --> 01:24:00,933
So to make that into a question, I mean, do you see what it means to live a good life

982
01:24:00,933 --> 01:24:03,513
as sufficiently defined by praxeology?

983
01:24:05,393 --> 01:24:07,793
No, and that's an excellent question.

984
01:24:08,213 --> 01:24:11,153
I think it's the baseline, but by far not the ceiling.

985
01:24:12,713 --> 01:24:16,993
It's going to be really difficult for you to live a fulfilled life if you consistently

986
01:24:16,993 --> 01:24:17,873
steal from others.

987
01:24:17,873 --> 01:24:25,813
i think right um but you can still be a dick even if you don't steal from others you know

988
01:24:25,813 --> 01:24:33,433
and and so to have a like holistically fulfilled life do not steal is is the baseline right but

989
01:24:33,433 --> 01:24:42,953
ultimately i do think that help others is is a very important metric or or or direction that

990
01:24:42,953 --> 01:24:48,913
that would lead you towards a more fulfilling life and praxeology for me really interestingly

991
01:24:48,913 --> 01:24:54,333
made me realize of what work actually is like that's why i got curious about it because i

992
01:24:54,333 --> 01:25:01,013
wanted to know why we work like why do we have to do this hard stuff and and the the solution

993
01:25:01,013 --> 01:25:06,793
ultimately is that work is the alleviation of problems and you you you identify a problem and

994
01:25:06,793 --> 01:25:11,353
and you work diligently to remove that problem from your own life.

995
01:25:11,993 --> 01:25:13,873
And then if you do that for others,

996
01:25:14,213 --> 01:25:17,233
then you're of such a use that they are willing to trade for you.

997
01:25:17,373 --> 01:25:20,873
Ultimately, every trade is people solving each other's problems

998
01:25:20,873 --> 01:25:23,313
at a mutual beneficial scale.

999
01:25:24,313 --> 01:25:30,273
So this communal aspect is very deeply tied to praxeology.

1000
01:25:30,993 --> 01:25:34,373
And praxeology is not like this isolated individual

1001
01:25:34,373 --> 01:25:35,933
that is perfectly rational.

1002
01:25:35,933 --> 01:25:38,413
That is actually Keynesian economics.

1003
01:25:38,913 --> 01:25:55,313
Praxeology is very fundamentally rooted in subjective individualism, but the consequences obviously apply to the interconnected individual that is very much dependent on others.

1004
01:25:55,313 --> 01:26:11,293
Like by yourself, by your loan would probably starve very quick or die of exposure because producing anything of true value is so incredibly complex that you could not do it.

1005
01:26:11,413 --> 01:26:14,233
At the famous essay, of course, I pencil from Friedrich Bastiat.

1006
01:26:14,793 --> 01:26:16,693
No one knows how to produce a pencil.

1007
01:26:16,693 --> 01:26:22,933
like no single person can produce a pencil ultimately because you know you need to get

1008
01:26:22,933 --> 01:26:27,173
the woods and for that you need like an axe and now you have to go into metallurgy and

1009
01:26:27,173 --> 01:26:33,453
dig up a bunch of dirt and and smelter it and sharp mids and okay now you you know need the

1010
01:26:33,453 --> 01:26:39,833
the the like filler the actual writer that now you have to go on a mining expedition and now you

1011
01:26:39,833 --> 01:26:46,673
need the the eraser some rubber so for this you have to build a boat and go to the jungle you know

1012
01:26:46,673 --> 01:26:52,233
cross an ocean to get your hands on on some days and now you need to feed all of the people that

1013
01:26:52,233 --> 01:26:56,393
work on this and produce the coffee that they drink in the morning and get the fuel for the

1014
01:26:56,393 --> 01:27:03,513
ships and and all of this the the chain of human interaction that leads to something as trivial

1015
01:27:03,513 --> 01:27:09,693
and seemingly banal as a as a pencil is mind-boggling yeah and so to think about what what

1016
01:27:09,693 --> 01:27:15,013
it took to produce the phone or the microphone that we're currently communicating with and and

1017
01:27:15,013 --> 01:27:18,973
the internet infrastructure that holds it all together, it's mind-blowing, right?

1018
01:27:19,013 --> 01:27:23,613
So humans are lonely and starving alone.

1019
01:27:24,693 --> 01:27:27,613
Like, yes, there's benefits to solitude as well, obviously,

1020
01:27:27,853 --> 01:27:30,473
but only in a very limited amount.

1021
01:27:32,293 --> 01:27:35,153
And this is a term you used earlier, and I think it's applicable here.

1022
01:27:35,153 --> 01:27:38,253
How does praxeology, what does catalytics mean,

1023
01:27:38,313 --> 01:27:42,393
and how does that stem from or interact with or its relation to praxeology?

1024
01:27:42,393 --> 01:27:47,953
Yeah, so praxeology is basically the logic of human action, right?

1025
01:27:47,993 --> 01:27:51,373
So what can we deduce based on the fact that humans act?

1026
01:27:51,973 --> 01:27:53,813
And it turns out we can deduce quite a lot.

1027
01:27:54,413 --> 01:28:02,053
And then there is a subsection of praxeology, which is called catalactics, which is basically the logic of trade.

1028
01:28:02,673 --> 01:28:04,333
And why do people trade with each other?

1029
01:28:04,873 --> 01:28:10,713
So this is like the much more narrower part of the economic thought.

1030
01:28:10,713 --> 01:28:14,753
But praxeology is useful even for the isolated individual.

1031
01:28:15,493 --> 01:28:28,133
A lot of things like time preference, interest, and these more advanced economic conclusions do make sense for a lonely, stranded individual on an island.

1032
01:28:28,133 --> 01:28:35,313
things like capital accumulation and specialization of resources and roundaboutness of production

1033
01:28:35,313 --> 01:28:42,173
stages. All of these economic concepts make sense for the isolated individual, but they're much more

1034
01:28:42,173 --> 01:28:49,113
interesting and much more applicable to real life in a catalactic of multiple agents working among

1035
01:28:49,113 --> 01:28:57,993
each other and for each other. Yeah. You, kind of a change of topic, but you've talked about

1036
01:28:57,993 --> 01:29:03,813
citadels a bit in the past. And I spent seven months at the network school, which is Balaji

1037
01:29:03,813 --> 01:29:11,033
Srinivasan's sort of grand experiment in what is possibly being referred to as like the third

1038
01:29:11,033 --> 01:29:17,193
iteration of societal organization, where we went from a church state and the church state fell

1039
01:29:17,193 --> 01:29:19,853
because the printing press democratized information

1040
01:29:19,853 --> 01:29:23,093
and you didn't have to go to the church to be propagandized.

1041
01:29:23,393 --> 01:29:26,073
And then the nation state arose

1042
01:29:26,073 --> 01:29:29,533
and then the internet is crumbling the nation state

1043
01:29:29,533 --> 01:29:32,093
because you no longer have to go to the government

1044
01:29:32,093 --> 01:29:35,153
in order to be propagandized and get your information.

1045
01:29:35,893 --> 01:29:39,393
And out of that comes this idea of a network state,

1046
01:29:39,473 --> 01:29:41,553
which is aligned individuals,

1047
01:29:41,753 --> 01:29:43,273
people who share the same values,

1048
01:29:44,893 --> 01:29:46,633
mostly internet values,

1049
01:29:46,633 --> 01:29:55,193
which are kind of internet values, I think, could best be described as what America wanted to be.

1050
01:29:56,893 --> 01:30:07,273
And obviously was not able to live up to that because of the failures of the technology that we had, truly, because it created these perverse incentives.

1051
01:30:09,393 --> 01:30:11,913
But none of this had ever been possible before.

1052
01:30:11,913 --> 01:30:33,493
None of these network states, these utopian societies, these grand social experiments, they could never work because the people didn't have their own money. Ultimately, there was always the king or the government that came in and put power upon them through aggression and broke it up.

1053
01:30:33,493 --> 01:30:44,593
Um, what is your, I guess, what is your interest and what is your, um, I guess, belief surrounding,

1054
01:30:45,053 --> 01:30:51,613
you know, because you, you've outlined that anarchy is, appears to be the natural outcome

1055
01:30:51,613 --> 01:31:01,213
of this parasitical infestation that is the state. Um, and does anarchy thus evolve into something

1056
01:31:01,213 --> 01:31:08,553
proximal or like the network state or like these charter cities that are popping up,

1057
01:31:08,753 --> 01:31:11,193
Zuzulu and Prospera and things like that.

1058
01:31:11,993 --> 01:31:16,773
I guess I'm always just curious about that because I'm trying to expand my,

1059
01:31:17,733 --> 01:31:33,164
trying to expand the things that I look at differently beyond just Bitcoin and communication And societal organization I think is one of those that really kind of hits home with me Yeah I a big fan of those as well

1060
01:31:33,384 --> 01:31:37,064
And in part, you know, I just don't like monopolies.

1061
01:31:37,464 --> 01:31:42,204
So whenever there's someone that says, I'm the only one that can do this, I kind of question

1062
01:31:42,204 --> 01:31:42,464
that.

1063
01:31:43,184 --> 01:31:46,644
And that goes for the market of living with each other as well.

1064
01:31:46,644 --> 01:32:10,824
I think we need much more entrepreneurship and experimentation to satisfy the need of, okay, how do we actually organize the neighborhood ultimately? And this is where network states and private cities are extremely beneficial, right? Because it is not the homesteading a ranch out in the middle of nowhere by yourself with your family.

1065
01:32:10,824 --> 01:32:14,264
because again that doesn't produce anything

1066
01:32:14,264 --> 01:32:15,384
other than a bit of food

1067
01:32:15,384 --> 01:32:18,024
and it's also not

1068
01:32:18,024 --> 01:32:20,444
a full on nation state

1069
01:32:20,444 --> 01:32:21,884
above multiple continents

1070
01:32:21,884 --> 01:32:24,564
a city

1071
01:32:24,564 --> 01:32:26,224
is a nice locus of

1072
01:32:26,224 --> 01:32:28,464
economic activity

1073
01:32:28,464 --> 01:32:30,764
that has the chance to produce

1074
01:32:30,764 --> 01:32:32,064
actually something meaningful

1075
01:32:32,064 --> 01:32:34,444
and when a couple of hundred thousand

1076
01:32:34,444 --> 01:32:36,004
or millions of people get together

1077
01:32:36,004 --> 01:32:38,324
that's a lot of human capital

1078
01:32:38,324 --> 01:32:40,084
and ingenuity that can solve

1079
01:32:40,084 --> 01:32:41,744
a whole bunch of different problems.

1080
01:32:42,564 --> 01:32:45,604
So I would like to see more independent cities

1081
01:32:45,604 --> 01:32:48,624
popping up that have a meaningful differentiation

1082
01:32:48,624 --> 01:32:51,664
in their governance model.

1083
01:32:51,664 --> 01:32:54,364
And that includes a full-on communist city.

1084
01:32:54,564 --> 01:32:58,344
I think we should actually do that voluntarily, obviously.

1085
01:32:58,544 --> 01:33:00,364
Don't lock people in that ghetto,

1086
01:33:01,024 --> 01:33:02,604
but leave the door open

1087
01:33:02,604 --> 01:33:04,404
so that those who change their mind might leave.

1088
01:33:05,544 --> 01:33:07,724
Because, you know, maybe I'm wrong

1089
01:33:07,724 --> 01:33:09,624
and property rights are not the best solution

1090
01:33:09,624 --> 01:33:10,584
to organize society.

1091
01:33:10,824 --> 01:33:11,864
Who might to tell that?

1092
01:33:12,384 --> 01:33:14,564
So people should try out.

1093
01:33:14,804 --> 01:33:16,684
And eventually, I think we will see

1094
01:33:16,684 --> 01:33:19,444
a lot of these cities succeed and flourish.

1095
01:33:20,264 --> 01:33:21,864
And then there is imitation

1096
01:33:21,864 --> 01:33:26,544
where a organizer or manager of a city

1097
01:33:26,544 --> 01:33:29,284
then sees some other community

1098
01:33:29,284 --> 01:33:32,364
benefiting from one certain technology

1099
01:33:32,364 --> 01:33:33,124
that they've applied.

1100
01:33:33,544 --> 01:33:34,864
He will most likely copy it

1101
01:33:34,864 --> 01:33:36,224
because if he doesn't,

1102
01:33:36,284 --> 01:33:38,544
then his competition is more beneficial

1103
01:33:38,544 --> 01:33:39,904
and people would move.

1104
01:33:40,984 --> 01:33:44,224
And the other fantastic thing

1105
01:33:44,224 --> 01:33:46,084
is that we have cyberspace now.

1106
01:33:46,404 --> 01:33:47,744
And then that changes everything

1107
01:33:47,744 --> 01:33:50,464
because now you can communicate

1108
01:33:50,464 --> 01:33:52,604
and collaborate and trade

1109
01:33:52,604 --> 01:33:54,664
and perform services for others

1110
01:33:54,664 --> 01:33:56,244
without being in close proximity.

1111
01:33:57,104 --> 01:33:59,684
So because the nation state

1112
01:33:59,684 --> 01:34:01,324
has such a clampdown

1113
01:34:01,324 --> 01:34:02,944
on the land territory,

1114
01:34:03,644 --> 01:34:05,784
I think that we are seeing

1115
01:34:05,784 --> 01:34:07,504
the network state, so to say,

1116
01:34:07,504 --> 01:34:14,744
emerge in cyberspace where there are people with such a high cultural overlap and shared ideology

1117
01:34:14,744 --> 01:34:20,964
and shared mythos like for example the bitcoin community right that where two random bitcoiners

1118
01:34:20,964 --> 01:34:26,204
are much closer to each other ideologically speaking than their neighbors by far right

1119
01:34:26,204 --> 01:34:34,804
and and this type of um yeah like experimentation in the cultural realm that that can be

1120
01:34:34,804 --> 01:34:41,744
done in cyberspace will bootstrap a bunch of different ideologies, ways of life that

1121
01:34:41,744 --> 01:34:47,584
can then reach a scale in cyberspace before it makes sense to anchor it in meat space somehow.

1122
01:34:48,524 --> 01:34:53,384
You know, similar to how now El Salvador, for example, on the nation state level is

1123
01:34:53,384 --> 01:35:00,424
at least trying to be that independent Bitcoin hub that does things differently.

1124
01:35:00,424 --> 01:35:05,084
that would not have been possible in 2013 with barely any Bitcoiners.

1125
01:35:05,084 --> 01:35:09,224
There needed to be a substantial amount of people that share this ideology

1126
01:35:09,224 --> 01:35:14,864
so that they can then flock to that one area in meat space and give it the best shot.

1127
01:35:15,764 --> 01:35:22,564
So this will continue to happen on a smaller and hopefully larger scale eventually.

1128
01:35:23,804 --> 01:35:26,024
Have you visited any of these spots?

1129
01:35:26,024 --> 01:35:33,044
I know that you travel quite a bit and you enjoy waking up in different places and knowing that home is wherever you are.

1130
01:35:34,384 --> 01:35:37,844
Is this something that you've experimented with as well?

1131
01:35:37,984 --> 01:35:44,844
Or are you more into kind of putting down roots now and growing a community in one spa?

1132
01:35:44,844 --> 01:35:54,844
yeah this is it's it's a difficult question because there are so many amazing beautiful

1133
01:35:54,844 --> 01:36:01,164
spots that that are out there and it's trade-offs all the way down right there i have not yet found

1134
01:36:01,164 --> 01:36:09,284
a perfect spot so to say when you do that let me know exactly i went i went my mountain next to the

1135
01:36:09,284 --> 01:36:17,184
beach uh you know with with clean rivers and and yeah all that exactly but matt have you ever thought

1136
01:36:17,184 --> 01:36:22,224
that maybe the perfection of a spot is the spot that you're from that every place has like its

1137
01:36:22,224 --> 01:36:27,024
own particular genius again just as i get older that's kind of the way i think that

1138
01:36:27,024 --> 01:36:34,264
like my unchosen biography um has a beauty to it that's not defined by its aesthetic beauty that

1139
01:36:34,264 --> 01:36:38,704
you know coming to love the place you're at is a journey where you come to understand something

1140
01:36:38,704 --> 01:36:43,424
about yourself. You're formed by an environment without knowing how it formed you. And part of

1141
01:36:43,424 --> 01:36:47,944
living there over an extended time is a dialogue with who you are. And that's kind of as you know,

1142
01:36:47,944 --> 01:36:52,804
I like to read things that we live in. We're in Kansas City now. It's near the Great Plains

1143
01:36:52,804 --> 01:36:56,144
in the United States. It's called flyover country. No one wants to be here.

1144
01:36:56,284 --> 01:37:01,544
We're both from a place that that that people often refer to as the only reason people live

1145
01:37:01,544 --> 01:37:06,524
there is because the wagon wheel broke or the ox died because you just you couldn't keep moving.

1146
01:37:06,524 --> 01:37:07,784
and that's just where you stopped.

1147
01:37:08,044 --> 01:37:08,864
Not much here, but wind.

1148
01:37:09,004 --> 01:37:10,744
But the longer you stay in a place

1149
01:37:10,744 --> 01:37:12,064
that you come to love it, I guess,

1150
01:37:12,184 --> 01:37:13,644
is, I don't know if that's a question

1151
01:37:13,644 --> 01:37:14,684
or just, you know,

1152
01:37:14,704 --> 01:37:15,684
what do you think about that?

1153
01:37:16,964 --> 01:37:20,144
That sounds like a really wise conclusion as well.

1154
01:37:20,724 --> 01:37:23,404
Because, you know, this is a big place,

1155
01:37:23,404 --> 01:37:26,904
but ultimately you are just,

1156
01:37:27,584 --> 01:37:30,864
yeah, you can make it in any place.

1157
01:37:30,984 --> 01:37:32,224
It's much more a question of

1158
01:37:32,224 --> 01:37:34,684
how do you deal with the situation

1159
01:37:34,684 --> 01:37:36,444
and do you try to make the best of it?

1160
01:37:36,524 --> 01:37:39,724
rather than is the surroundings perfect.

1161
01:37:40,444 --> 01:37:43,584
And there's definitely an aspect of being able to,

1162
01:37:43,584 --> 01:37:44,064
you know,

1163
01:37:45,024 --> 01:37:48,384
row for generations in the same place.

1164
01:37:48,964 --> 01:37:52,224
Like there are villages where the same family

1165
01:37:52,224 --> 01:37:54,944
is for countless generations

1166
01:37:54,944 --> 01:37:57,004
and they are the village basically.

1167
01:37:57,004 --> 01:38:02,804
And that type of anchor is certainly valuable as well.

1168
01:38:03,864 --> 01:38:06,144
I've heard you say on a podcast

1169
01:38:06,144 --> 01:38:10,384
that you don't understand a place until you've lived there long enough to see people born and

1170
01:38:10,384 --> 01:38:19,604
die there. And that, you know, to the age now where I've seen that happen, right? And it does

1171
01:38:19,604 --> 01:38:27,664
give you a certain perspective on the place. And there is both a hopelessness and a hopefulness

1172
01:38:27,664 --> 01:38:33,984
that comes from that. Yeah, I didn't have a question there. I just had something to say.

1173
01:38:33,984 --> 01:38:37,024
To the point where we're not saying questions, we're just interested in.

1174
01:38:37,544 --> 01:38:38,524
More interest.

1175
01:38:38,804 --> 01:38:42,484
Like, what are the questions that like what what's exciting to you right now?

1176
01:38:42,544 --> 01:38:47,564
Like, what are you thinking about on a daily basis that is that is exciting?

1177
01:38:47,764 --> 01:38:51,564
I mean, obviously, Noster is kind of the driving force.

1178
01:38:51,564 --> 01:38:59,004
Now you've sort of moved on from Wasabi Wallet and CoinJoin in order to kind of take this next bigger step.

1179
01:38:59,004 --> 01:39:06,504
what what's really motivating and exciting right now that's like i guess specifically propelling

1180
01:39:06,504 --> 01:39:14,284
you forward this shot of dopamine that's pushing you uh to you know get up and take your uh

1181
01:39:14,284 --> 01:39:18,564
take your take your satchel and go to work and and uh solve problems

1182
01:39:18,564 --> 01:39:26,064
many different things but but one that really is is a highlight is the the quality of the people

1183
01:39:26,064 --> 01:39:42,094
who are working on these problems Like in FreedomTech very broadly defined especially Bitcoin especially noster there the and and i not quite sure why it is but there such a shared culture that that extends

1184
01:39:42,094 --> 01:39:48,094
for for any nationality maybe because it is something as foundational as freedom and and

1185
01:39:49,294 --> 01:39:57,054
it somehow attracted just incredible people um both wicked smart but also courageous and and

1186
01:39:57,054 --> 01:40:00,554
and motivated and willing to do something.

1187
01:40:01,234 --> 01:40:07,434
This is really a blessing that our ecosystem or industry has.

1188
01:40:08,474 --> 01:40:10,994
And so I get to speak to countless builders

1189
01:40:10,994 --> 01:40:14,474
and to see their own motivation

1190
01:40:14,474 --> 01:40:18,314
and how they're slowly making their paths

1191
01:40:18,314 --> 01:40:20,974
towards really, really big problems,

1192
01:40:21,734 --> 01:40:26,274
which maybe is the other thing of just picking big problems

1193
01:40:26,274 --> 01:40:28,094
means you have a lot of work

1194
01:40:28,094 --> 01:40:30,274
and a lot of responsibilities

1195
01:40:30,274 --> 01:40:32,014
and so that makes things

1196
01:40:32,014 --> 01:40:33,834
damn quite

1197
01:40:33,834 --> 01:40:35,174
exciting

1198
01:40:35,174 --> 01:40:38,294
and initially I set myself

1199
01:40:38,294 --> 01:40:40,414
out to fix the money as outrageous

1200
01:40:40,414 --> 01:40:41,154
as that sounds

1201
01:40:41,154 --> 01:40:44,374
but a couple outrageous

1202
01:40:44,374 --> 01:40:46,414
people I think absolutely managed to do

1203
01:40:46,414 --> 01:40:48,614
that like Bitcoin has fixed the money

1204
01:40:48,614 --> 01:40:49,874
and

1205
01:40:49,874 --> 01:40:52,154
to some extent I'm satisfied

1206
01:40:52,154 --> 01:40:54,154
with the state of it now

1207
01:40:54,154 --> 01:40:55,834
so that I consider that quest

1208
01:40:55,834 --> 01:41:05,434
closed and now i guess specifically my my more um nuanced uh approach right now is is to fix the

1209
01:41:05,434 --> 01:41:13,434
direct messaging and this is something where nostr has has shown a new set of building blocks to build

1210
01:41:13,434 --> 01:41:20,994
an internet of publication that is beautiful in its simplicity and it's in its censorship

1211
01:41:20,994 --> 01:41:29,914
persistence and its possibility of what can be built with it. But one realization is that a very

1212
01:41:29,914 --> 01:41:36,654
small percentage of your actions are intended for the whole public world to see. And most conversations

1213
01:41:36,654 --> 01:41:44,014
that you have is with one person or a small group of people. And these are the types of conversations

1214
01:41:44,014 --> 01:41:49,734
that we have to some extent neglected in Noster specifically.

1215
01:41:50,594 --> 01:41:54,574
And I think with the basic building blocks of Noster

1216
01:41:54,574 --> 01:41:56,894
and some additional ones,

1217
01:41:57,134 --> 01:42:03,254
we can really get to a place where we have a free and open environment

1218
01:42:03,254 --> 01:42:06,174
where people can have secure and private conversations.

1219
01:42:07,074 --> 01:42:13,114
And especially I'm interested about the applications

1220
01:42:13,114 --> 01:42:17,874
and use cases that emerge when this new building block is introduced.

1221
01:42:19,354 --> 01:42:26,354
Because we haven't really had a way to securely and privately talk to 50 people

1222
01:42:26,354 --> 01:42:32,034
without having some central third party that we all trust or something or another.

1223
01:42:33,174 --> 01:42:38,794
And with the stack of technologies I'm working on now, that is possible.

1224
01:42:38,794 --> 01:42:46,334
Like you can have a group of a thousand, maybe even 50,000 people that securely talk to each other.

1225
01:42:47,034 --> 01:42:52,514
And there's just no third party that knows about it or that can stop it.

1226
01:42:52,854 --> 01:42:58,334
And with all those benefits of Nostra being able to customize that experience.

1227
01:42:59,094 --> 01:43:04,114
And if you have your own local playground where not just the content is yours,

1228
01:43:04,114 --> 01:43:11,794
but the way that the content is created and interpreted and read is also adapting to your own local culture.

1229
01:43:12,554 --> 01:43:18,474
This will unleash, I think, a plethora of new culture, ultimately.

1230
01:43:20,154 --> 01:43:27,814
If you go to the mountains, every valley has a unique set of dress and language and customs.

1231
01:43:28,774 --> 01:43:33,094
And that was in part because they just couldn't talk to each other because it was too much work to go over the mountain.

1232
01:43:33,094 --> 01:43:38,514
And so despite them being on a very close space, a huge diversity has emerged.

1233
01:43:39,274 --> 01:43:48,894
And I think a lot of this diversity has been taken or at least disappeared with that ever more interconnected global economy.

1234
01:43:49,294 --> 01:43:55,134
And that comes with a bunch of benefits, obviously, but there are sacrifices and costs here.

1235
01:43:55,134 --> 01:44:17,394
And I think if we manage to create valleys in cyberspace where a group of people can meet and choose to just be by themselves and choose to create that culture and mindset and knowledge that is not for anyone to see, but only for the tribe, so to say, this will have fascinating consequences.

1236
01:44:17,394 --> 01:44:25,394
So building towards that and seeing where that might take us in five, 10 years is always exciting.

1237
01:44:27,014 --> 01:44:33,234
Yeah, we want to continue to keep going deeper on Nostra and understanding more.

1238
01:44:33,454 --> 01:44:40,114
We've got a conversation set up with Paul Keating from Primal and kind of learn a bit about that client.

1239
01:44:40,694 --> 01:44:46,034
But, you know, like there's brilliant people in this space without doxing anybody.

1240
01:44:46,034 --> 01:44:53,074
are there some names that come to mind that you would say are really driving change right now in

1241
01:44:53,074 --> 01:44:59,994
Noster? And then a second question, which should be easy, is you said Eric Voskel is perhaps one

1242
01:44:59,994 --> 01:45:04,074
of two people who understand Bitcoin on the level that he does. Who's the other one?

1243
01:45:06,494 --> 01:45:14,954
That is Lucas Ontivero. He is the first contributor to Wasabi Wallet. And it has

1244
01:45:14,954 --> 01:45:24,334
been like in computer science for since he was a toddler basically and he's argentinian so he has

1245
01:45:24,334 --> 01:45:32,834
lived through economic terror and and has learned on on why like not and not just in in the textbooks

1246
01:45:32,834 --> 01:45:40,834
but but also in practice uh which helps a lot uh so he has yeah fantastic insights on on both

1247
01:45:40,834 --> 01:45:46,274
bitcoin as a technology and what's possible with him with it and as as well as the underlying

1248
01:45:46,274 --> 01:45:53,234
economics of that makes it so powerful um and and other people in in the nostril ecosystem

1249
01:45:53,234 --> 01:46:00,274
or maybe projects like one that i'm incredibly bullish and excited on is zap store as zap store

1250
01:46:00,274 --> 01:46:08,254
dot def it is a an app store and it is from the point of view of a developer the only app store

1251
01:46:08,254 --> 01:46:15,274
that works literally because every other app store you have to beg for permission to get an account

1252
01:46:15,274 --> 01:46:20,894
you have to make a bank payment in order to get an account every developer who who made a

1253
01:46:20,894 --> 01:46:27,034
yeah who published an app needed to pay apple via the banking system so if you don't have

1254
01:46:27,034 --> 01:46:31,054
an a bank account or if you do not get an apple account for whatever reason

1255
01:46:31,054 --> 01:46:36,294
you just cannot publish to a couple billion people on this planet which is weird

1256
01:46:36,294 --> 01:46:41,254
and then whenever you make an update to your software

1257
01:46:41,254 --> 01:46:44,574
you have to sacrifice a goat and do a ritual

1258
01:46:44,574 --> 01:46:49,014
and pray that the reviewers have a good day

1259
01:46:49,014 --> 01:46:51,854
and will approve that you fix those problems

1260
01:46:51,854 --> 01:46:53,234
that your users are experiencing

1261
01:46:53,234 --> 01:46:57,114
so that is enormously frustrating

1262
01:46:57,114 --> 01:47:02,234
and the system used to be so much better

1263
01:47:02,234 --> 01:47:03,114
not even that long ago

1264
01:47:03,114 --> 01:47:06,214
where developers just signed their release with PGP

1265
01:47:06,214 --> 01:47:08,594
and put it on a server and you could get it

1266
01:47:08,594 --> 01:47:10,274
and you could verify that it's from them

1267
01:47:10,274 --> 01:47:11,534
and you just run it.

1268
01:47:12,174 --> 01:47:14,634
So I know Apple users have no idea

1269
01:47:14,634 --> 01:47:17,754
that you can install software other than from the App Store,

1270
01:47:18,254 --> 01:47:20,654
but most actual computers do that.

1271
01:47:21,894 --> 01:47:24,294
And so we need to get back to that.

1272
01:47:24,614 --> 01:47:27,934
And App Store has achieved this for Android specifically,

1273
01:47:28,814 --> 01:47:31,394
where all a developer that needs to do

1274
01:47:31,394 --> 01:47:46,644
in order to publish an app is to sign an OSTO event It says this is the name of the app That the version That where you can download it Here the description Here some pictures And that is cryptographically signed and uploaded to hundreds of relays

1275
01:47:47,004 --> 01:47:51,404
so that anyone can be able to get a notification that, hey,

1276
01:47:51,404 --> 01:47:53,244
there's a new update available.

1277
01:47:53,244 --> 01:47:57,844
And then on top of that, you can recommend other people applications

1278
01:47:57,844 --> 01:48:00,604
that you like by signing them with your private key.

1279
01:48:00,604 --> 01:48:08,144
And so there on ZapStore, you will find a list of applications that I recommend together with lists of a bunch of other people.

1280
01:48:09,104 --> 01:48:16,744
And so that's a great way to have a social verification of, yes, this is actually the app that my friends are using.

1281
01:48:17,164 --> 01:48:21,344
And at least I'm not being singled out by an attacker who gives only me a different version.

1282
01:48:21,744 --> 01:48:23,944
And I know that this is the exact version that my friends are running.

1283
01:48:24,524 --> 01:48:26,504
But also it's a great discovery mechanism.

1284
01:48:26,504 --> 01:48:32,384
them. I've discovered so many new apps in the App Store because my friends, you know, published

1285
01:48:32,384 --> 01:48:39,284
about them. And of course, you can send money to the developers. That is one button. And with every

1286
01:48:39,284 --> 01:48:46,064
download, it gives you like, hey, you want to send a couple stats to the devs. And this can be like

1287
01:48:46,064 --> 01:48:51,764
serious income. Like the App Store right now is again still tiny, maybe a couple thousand users.

1288
01:48:51,764 --> 01:48:57,244
but there is still more than zero money coming through and as most developers you just don't

1289
01:48:57,244 --> 01:49:01,524
earn anything from from apple or google or they take the massive 30 cut from everything that you

1290
01:49:01,524 --> 01:49:09,364
manage to then earn later on right so a tiny fraction uh will will remain at the actual app

1291
01:49:09,364 --> 01:49:15,964
developer and this can just be turned to 100 with with nostor and bitcoin so zap store is one of

1292
01:49:15,964 --> 01:49:24,364
these applications that might just by itself be enough to you know to stave the worst of of the

1293
01:49:24,364 --> 01:49:33,304
internet fallout by simply making it free and open to publish applications by anyone and for anyone

1294
01:49:33,304 --> 01:49:39,584
because that just increases the number of developers who who are who have the potential

1295
01:49:39,584 --> 01:49:44,944
to solve problems for others now that we have so many white coders and white coders are not going

1296
01:49:44,944 --> 01:49:49,944
to sign up for an Apple account, but they might just, you know, if the software does

1297
01:49:49,944 --> 01:49:54,804
it automatically for them in the background and no extra information is required.

1298
01:49:57,984 --> 01:49:59,084
Grant, to you.

1299
01:49:59,724 --> 01:50:01,204
I don't have any further questions.

1300
01:50:01,204 --> 01:50:06,164
I was going to say, I'm so thankful that you gave us your time because you talked about

1301
01:50:06,164 --> 01:50:10,384
Eric Voskul having this ability to unite, you know, an understanding of economics with

1302
01:50:10,384 --> 01:50:11,804
the technical situation.

1303
01:50:11,804 --> 01:50:18,864
And hearing you talk about Noster, it's that same really enlightening kind of feeling, right?

1304
01:50:18,944 --> 01:50:25,224
I came into this conversation not knowing much about Noster, you know, seeing it here and there kind of pop up on Twitter and whatnot.

1305
01:50:25,524 --> 01:50:31,484
This has given me a much deeper understanding, along with your kind of conceptual description of valleys in cyberspace.

1306
01:50:31,484 --> 01:50:43,004
That really gives me mental traction on the possibility of what can develop, not just some uniform culture through Nostra, but really the preservation of private spaces that allows a flourishing of different communities.

1307
01:50:43,004 --> 01:50:55,584
So just immensely grateful. And I also wanted to just pay you a compliment that throughout the conversation, just your humility in saying things like, you know, property, you believe strongly in property, right?

1308
01:50:55,604 --> 01:51:01,304
That's obvious. You're very passionate about it. But a point saying maybe it's not right. And so different communities might have different ideas.

1309
01:51:01,484 --> 01:51:27,664
And you said something similar about sovereign individuality, maybe down the road to figure out that wasn't the right assumption to start with. And so I really like to see on display that kind of epistemic humility or that humility about, you know, what we can know. And you have to still be passionate, right? To still plow forward because you can never be 100% certain. So thank you for all of this explanation. And yeah, thank you.

1310
01:51:27,664 --> 01:51:49,104
Yeah, we really are super grateful for this, very grateful for Calvadev for hooking us up because it really opened me up to a thinker that I had no idea existed, that is really not just thinking, but taking action and putting that praxeology into practice.

1311
01:51:50,484 --> 01:51:53,244
Yeah, praxis and practice.

1312
01:51:53,704 --> 01:51:56,084
No, thank you.

1313
01:51:56,084 --> 01:51:58,704
is there anything that you'd like to leave people with?

1314
01:51:59,544 --> 01:52:00,724
You know, we, we,

1315
01:52:00,844 --> 01:52:04,764
we pride ourselves on being a fourth tier podcast with first,

1316
01:52:04,764 --> 01:52:07,304
first tier listeners. And so if they've made it,

1317
01:52:07,644 --> 01:52:12,164
and hopefully that they can find a great nugget, but is there anything that

1318
01:52:12,164 --> 01:52:15,744
you'd like to leave to the world so that it ripples throughout humanity?

1319
01:52:17,604 --> 01:52:19,804
Oh, that's a, that's a tall order to, to,

1320
01:52:20,224 --> 01:52:25,744
I really enjoyed your,

1321
01:52:25,744 --> 01:52:29,764
our conversation as well like you've both had some excellent questions that actually

1322
01:52:29,764 --> 01:52:36,124
make me think uh and come up with some new insights as well so so that is great um and

1323
01:52:36,124 --> 01:52:43,324
no ultimately i think the call to action is just to to to realize that that we have it within our

1324
01:52:43,324 --> 01:52:50,004
hands to make meaningful changes to the human existence like humans are incredibly adaptive

1325
01:52:50,004 --> 01:52:51,924
and kind of self-authoring.

1326
01:52:52,704 --> 01:52:54,824
And the way that things currently are

1327
01:52:54,824 --> 01:52:56,464
is not the way that they have to be.

1328
01:52:57,064 --> 01:52:59,504
And we can change them

1329
01:52:59,504 --> 01:53:02,164
and we can change them in both directions.

1330
01:53:02,164 --> 01:53:05,464
Like we could make this existence so much worse,

1331
01:53:06,204 --> 01:53:08,864
so very much quick for so many people.

1332
01:53:09,904 --> 01:53:13,924
And your everyday actions and choices are part of that.

1333
01:53:14,744 --> 01:53:18,004
And very much subconsciously as well.

1334
01:53:18,004 --> 01:53:24,684
and you know that goes ultimately with i believe that every time you get paid in fiat you're

1335
01:53:24,684 --> 01:53:31,204
stealing from people right and and there's good economic reasons for that and and nobody knows

1336
01:53:31,204 --> 01:53:36,464
about this right but but ultimately the the sum aggregate of of all of these aggressions

1337
01:53:36,464 --> 01:53:44,044
both overt and covert manifest and and make a difference and a difference to the to the downside

1338
01:53:44,044 --> 01:53:55,244
right so yeah like be mindful of of the power that that you actually have and the ability to

1339
01:53:55,244 --> 01:54:01,164
channel it in in a different direction and to be more conscious about how to use that

1340
01:54:01,164 --> 01:54:10,964
and then also realizing the amazing adventure and and fun that it can be to really double down on

1341
01:54:10,964 --> 01:54:13,864
your understandings of the truth

1342
01:54:13,864 --> 01:54:15,384
and building something that

1343
01:54:15,384 --> 01:54:17,884
you ultimately want to see more of

1344
01:54:17,884 --> 01:54:18,464
in this world.

1345
01:54:19,244 --> 01:54:21,604
Where you pay attention is

1346
01:54:21,604 --> 01:54:23,864
the most important currency

1347
01:54:23,864 --> 01:54:25,864
transaction that you

1348
01:54:25,864 --> 01:54:27,604
can make because your attention

1349
01:54:27,604 --> 01:54:29,684
is very, very powerful.

1350
01:54:30,744 --> 01:54:31,684
And so being

1351
01:54:31,684 --> 01:54:33,784
aware of that and channeling it

1352
01:54:33,784 --> 01:54:34,164
to

1353
01:54:34,164 --> 01:54:37,704
what you want to see more of in this world

1354
01:54:37,704 --> 01:54:39,824
rather than the things that you're running

1355
01:54:39,824 --> 01:54:48,344
away from is is powerful like yes it's it's good to not be naive and and find or be aware of of

1356
01:54:48,344 --> 01:54:54,424
what you're running away from but ultimately you want to spend as much as time possible in in

1357
01:54:54,424 --> 01:55:02,304
building that newer more hopeful future rather than just complaining about the old and it a lot

1358
01:55:02,304 --> 01:55:08,524
of the pain and suffering is is just self-inflicted and and doesn't have to be and you can just make

1359
01:55:08,524 --> 01:55:11,964
it stop. There are numerous actions

1360
01:55:11,964 --> 01:55:16,184
that you can take that will alleviate pain

1361
01:55:16,184 --> 01:55:20,404
for you and for others. And those steps are quite obvious

1362
01:55:20,404 --> 01:55:24,644
if you meditate on them. So have the courage

1363
01:55:24,644 --> 01:55:28,564
to do that. It's definitely a lot of

1364
01:55:28,564 --> 01:55:32,564
fun on doing that myself. Very kind words.

1365
01:55:32,724 --> 01:55:35,724
Thank you very much. Max Hillebrand, it's been an absolute pleasure.

1366
01:55:35,724 --> 01:55:38,604
and I can't wait to talk again.

1367
01:55:39,144 --> 01:55:41,204
This has just been fantastic.

1368
01:55:41,864 --> 01:55:42,204
Thank you.

1369
01:55:43,344 --> 01:55:44,104
Yeah, let's do it again.

1370
01:55:44,264 --> 01:55:44,684
We'll be fun.