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Welcome back to Bitcoin Study Sessions.

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My name is Lucas Matty.

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That guy with a good smile is Grant Riker.

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This is your favorite fourth tier podcast about Bitcoin with third tier jokes and eighth tier haircuts.

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And we are joined by first tier guest, a first tier guest who I like to describe as the Bitcoin menace of Bulgaria, a force of nature.

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Mr. Ivan Makadonsky.

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He is the chief of staff at Breeze, which is a Bitcoin lightning company.

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Breeze has developed a software development kit, an SDK, that allows nodeless lightning transactions.

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Not only that, Ivan is a really deep thinker in terms of Bitcoin.

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And he's really inspired me to consider the societal effects of how split payments can change the way that society interacts with each other.

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The example I always get is that we've got a restaurant and typically the restaurant started by somebody who likes to cook.

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And in the course of wanting to run a restaurant, they have to stray away from doing the thing that they're good at, cooking.

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and they have to delve into all these other forays that they might not be very good at,

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like hiring or accounting or being a landlord or being a real estate owner,

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advertising, marketing, etc.

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What Lightning allows us to do is that when I walk into the restaurant,

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I pay my bill and it allows 5% to go to the waitress, 10% to go to the chef, 15% to go to the building owner, 3% to go to the accountant, etc., etc.

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Instantly with final settlement.

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And that changes our incentives.

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We talk a lot about incentive structure and how Bitcoin encourages us to be collaborative instead of competitive.

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So this changes the way that we interact with each other.

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I think that it's one of the more interesting thought holes to go down to in Bitcoin.

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And we're going to poke around a few holes here with Ivan today.

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So Ivan, if you would, give us a little bit of your own introduction.

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I've left out a few important things, husband and father, of course, proud Bulgarian.

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And also he's a member of the subterranean thought current within Bitcoin.

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And that is people who understand software for the vital thesis that it is.

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And he really, not only does he understand the vitality of that thesis, but he applies it in his work.

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So definitely great to have him here.

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Yeah. Kick us off, Ivan. What do you got for us?

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Thanks for the kind words.

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I would say out of all of those, I don't think if I'm a deep thinker, I just tumbled onto something and I started thinking about it to chase it.

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I never wrote an article in my previous careers.

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I never spent so much time thinking about an idea like what is money, why the hell Bitcoin or all sorts of things.

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And now I'm in this journey for four years and this thing just happened.

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But why I do this is I'm a highly competitive person and I come from a deep pain.

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as you know from our previous conversations.

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And for me, what I say is that whatever I do in Bitcoin,

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probably I'm not going to affect the world economy in any sort of way.

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But if I do things right and I understand and build the proper solutions,

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I'm going to have a huge effect for my kids.

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And that is what is driving me for all of this, because this is my hashing proof of work thing that whatever the market values and stuff like that, whatever works, if I implement this solution, if I connect with those people, if I whatever environment set up for my kids, now they're going to start from that and build upon this.

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just like we are stepping on the work of Satoshi Nakamoto.

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Like we didn't have to be a cypherpunk and figure that whole process for 40 years.

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But now we kind of understand the basic pieces and we can build on top of that.

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And that is what I'm trying to do.

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Like I want to set an environment of abundance,

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an environment of quality people for my kids,

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the social network,

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which in general,

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Bitcoiners are better

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from my understanding and my experience.

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But I don't want my kids

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to fight invisible demons like inflation

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and believe the propaganda

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that that is good for us.

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Just like saying,

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oh, you have a computer,

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So I'm not going to steal it, but I'm going to break it.

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And that is good for you.

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Like, that is what they're doing to our money.

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But because of, as I said, because of that pain, because of now I have in my face the meaning of what I'm fighting for.

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Because in my previous careers and fiat, I didn't understand any of this.

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And I was not a father.

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So it wasn't a daily reminder of what I was doing, but I was kind of chasing success in the fiat propaganda view.

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But now it's completely different.

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That is, I would say, an introduction for myself, that I'm trying to build a better world for my kids.

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Yeah. And part of that better world is that you are continuously going deeper and deeper into the doors that Bitcoin unlocks. So Bitcoin itself offers the sovereignty and the financial freedom, but then lightning allows for these split payments and allows for this value for value.

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And in the most recent article that you had sent us, you go a step further and you actually make a critique of the traditional fiat platforms of advertising, YouTube, Spotify, Apple podcasts.

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And you talk about, you know, Bitcoin podcasters, we're on these platforms and we are preaching Bitcoin, but giving a fiat experience.

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And that fiat experience is one that is heavily laden with ads and sponsorships and interrupted and it lessens the experience for the listener.

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And so you've really become a proponent of Noster, notes and other stuff transmitted by relays, a decentralized protocol that allows for the transmission.

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It's effectively a decentralized social media platform.

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And partly by your encouragement, we've started putting our podcast onto Noster.

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um we've had slow you know small small user base um not a whole lot of listens however

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i told grant the other day um we've now had two people that directly reached out and gave us

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money gave us bitcoin in the form of sats by sending us payments through lightning

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straight through Nostra, straight into our account, automatic final settlement.

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And I think that's kind of what it means to be, you might not consider yourself a deep thinker,

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but to be someone who is constantly on the edge. When Bitcoin was on the edge, you were there,

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then lightning, and now we're on Nostra. So can you kind of flesh out that idea for us a little

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bit. I know that you interact quite a bit on Noster and kind of just lay out, I guess, the case for

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what you see Noster as today and what you see the potential of that. Because there's a lot of

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people that would say the network effect of something like YouTube or Spotify or Apple

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podcasts is so large that it will be impossible to overcome that and get people to transfer to a

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new platform like Nostre. I don't believe that, but I think that that's something that should be

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addressed. So would you kind of tell us about your experience with Nostre and where you think that

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that'll take us? I would say about Nostre, a little bit of a correction. I think Nostre is

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playing around with Bitcoin the proper way.

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I don't know if Noster is the solution

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because Noster is not a social media thing.

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Noster is a protocol

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that you can have a digital identity.

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And what you do with that digital identity

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could be almost anything.

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And Noster has the potential

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to become the new internet

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in some circles what they say.

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I'm not technically as competent to say

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if that is actually possible

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because other people say it's not scalable.

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But what Noster really is doing is

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Bitcoin is native in Noster.

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It's not something outside.

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It's not something all click this button

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and you're going to be redirected to another page.

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It's in the whole experience.

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And whoever gives the best experience wins in those circles.

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But for now, it's just a playground.

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It's like nothing.

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But that is the thing what people and developers should focus on.

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Like, how can I integrate Bitcoin in my day-to-day experiences?

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So it's not something that's outside.

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It's not an asset that I'm waiting to get rich.

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but it's all just money in the base the basic understanding of everything so why are you using

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money for just one use case to save in it like yeah it's a very very important use case because

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we never had this uh saving technology ever in history of humankind but that is just one use

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case payment is also the the other best use case like to be anywhere around the world for seconds

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like okay like why nobody is playing around like nostr is great at that but unfortunately

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this is something that's completely new and it's very hard to adopt this network and the

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The biggest thing that is stopping people to flow in there is the user experience.

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Again, it's kind of bad still.

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And I'm in Nostar for like, I think, three years now.

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Definitely more than two.

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And it's improved hugely.

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But still, it sucks for a lot of things.

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the thing that really shocked me two weeks ago or something is that I started playing around

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with Vibe coding and it turns out that now all my ideas in the instant settlement articles

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I can showcase them like I can do split payments with our own SDK which is free anybody can use it

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I gave the documentation of Breeze to the AI.

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I told him, okay, make this website.

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Then I pointed, okay, based on this documentation,

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make a particular payment in such a way with the,

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again, I'm not thinking in developer terms.

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I'm thinking in user terms, how I want the experience to be.

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And you can implement all that in your own website.

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It will not be Noster, but it will have the same thing.

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So yes, you can put all your content in Noster and the experiences because there is a network,

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but nothing stops you to create your own website where you host it yourself

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and you have all that same experience in it.

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Like you create invoices, you receive it, somebody votes for something,

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your users can have their own wallet.

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everything can be one whole thing and not only that but when you take your seed and you put it

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somewhere else your money is already there you don't need something else the thing that you

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need to protect is just the seed uh so again going back to your question nostr is a great

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experimentation and the network is kind of growing there but it's still even though

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it's growing

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it's still not hitting a hockey stick

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it's growing linearly

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and until

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somebody creates some type of

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experience where they're very

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excited about

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actually somebody created

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a replica

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of

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Vines, he called it

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Divines and that actually

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his servers and I think

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Rabo is his

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nickname and that was great and everybody was excited about it uh yeah we're going to have six

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seconds video on noster but uh when you get in you're excited and the user experience is crappy

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is what we talked the last time like the experience needs to be good so people stay they don't

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uh dig around and then leave like that's not the idea we need to be better uh just because

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theoretically Bitcoin has all those properties, it doesn't mean that the developers that work on

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them give you those properties. People don't care about digital scarcity. People don't care about,

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I can send it around the world. They need to have the problem solved and that thing just needs to

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work like i don't want to know uh what i need to do to electrify my house i want to click button

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and that light bulb to be uh to shine so i see stuff in the dark that is the idea we are still

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not there yet but uh because i believe with ai uh and uh right now the layers of bitcoin are

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getting much, much better than what it was three years ago,

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like light years.

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And we're getting closer,

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but we did not hit a point of adoption of hockey stick.

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That is the problem and it is in the user experience

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because if somebody, the only, unfortunately,

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the only hockey stick that we hit from time to time

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is when something in fiat breaks

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and Bitcoin or Noster fills that gap

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because there was some problem in Asia

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that they blocked private messages

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and something like that.

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So something that Jack Dorsey created

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that uses Noster,

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the adoption grew a lot.

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But those are pockets and tremors

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in the fiat system

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and not everybody will jump on the right board.

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So that is the thing that we need to figure out.

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I don't want the world to crash and burn until we use Bitcoin.

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But unfortunately, and I'm putting this also for myself, will come from pay.

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I believe that 99% of people will jump in Bitcoin because they have no choice.

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Just 1% will be like, oh, this is something that I can use.

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I agree.

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We've said this on this podcast before, but Tony Robbins has a saying that people do not change until the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of changing.

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And I recently applied for a role with the Bitcoin Conference.

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And the mission of the Bitcoin Conference is hyper-Bitcoinization.

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And so in preparation for my initial interview, I was having a conversation with Grok about what are the major drivers for hyper Bitcoinization for the rapid adoption of any technology.

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And interestingly enough, the answer that I got was that nothing will accelerate hyper Bitcoinization like the failure of the fiat economy.

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You can have all the free education that you want, all the conferences, all the platforms and podcasters, etc.

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And that will not move the needle near as much as having the failure of the current system, which makes perfect sense.

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But you said something, I want to kind of, I'm not sure if I'm challenging you on it or if I'm just asking for more clarity.

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But first off, I want to frame NOSTER in historical terms.

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we're saying that it's been three years and it's still not very user friendly.

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And by the way, I agree with that.

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I use it and it's not very fast.

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Primal is what I use for my interface and it's not great.

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It's okay.

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It does have some features that I prefer actually to other platforms.

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But still, it's not quite as good.

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However, if we frame it in terms of thinking about,

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well, the internet was invented in the 60s

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And it wasn't actually usable on a commercial level until the 90s. And it wasn't actually popular until the 2000s with the introduction of search engines. Then if we look at it in that kind of historical context, then I would say that Noster is actually being adopted fairly quickly. It's moving fairly rapidly.

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Um, but the thing that I think is important is that we, we have the protocol and like you say, we're waiting for the user experience to be developed in order to really engage people.

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Chamath Palihapitiya, um, he was, uh, I, I saw him recently, um, on stage and he was talking about how the refrigerator was introduced, but the people that sold the refrigerators and made the refrigerator, they didn't really.

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make a whole lot of money. They weren't really the ones that changed the world. The people that

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really benefited from that were the people that made Coca-Cola and the people that made beer,

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right? Because that was the product that went into the protocol. And so Primal, Damus, these

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products basically that are built on top of the protocol of Noster, they're the ones that, yeah,

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we're really waiting for that great use case, the place to listen to music or watch movies or

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watch the Vine episodes, or is it my social media? Is it the way that I transfer value, etc.?

222
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But you had said that you're not sure that Nostra can scale. Is it just because of the user

223
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experience lagging that you don't believe that Nostra can scale? Or is it some other technical

224
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reason uh this is beyond my comprehension unfortunately but the uh the technical

225
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community is kind of split on roster so uh half of it say that because everything is relayed through

226
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relays and through multiple relays that means that the data is duplicated in uh multiple relays

227
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that creates problems but i cannot answer more than this uh that is the technical challenge because

228
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some say that above 500 or even less 500 million people it would just completely break because it

229
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will be flooded with information that has to travel on the other side people that are building

230
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on Noster I talked with them and they say that if you're highly technical person you have to

231
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unlearn a lot of stuff in order to understand that Noster can scale.

232
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And I am, again, don't know what is the truth.

233
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That is their argument, just like an economist,

234
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a fiat economist trying to understand Bitcoin.

235
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That is their argument.

236
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But again, is it a bias because they're building on Noster

237
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or the other people are right?

238
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I don't know.

239
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But either way, the thing, as I said, the thing that I love,

240
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Even if Noster is not the thing, by Noster scaling to the point of that failure, then that would be great because so many people will use it.

241
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And that means all of our collective brains of those, let's say, 1% of those people will be developing on it.

242
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They have a vested interest in making it work, even if it fails.

243
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So a solution might show up or even if it completely fails, another type of protocol should change or something else.

244
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So it will take the good stuff from Noster and place it somewhere else.

245
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Just like Bitcoin evolved to what it is now.

246
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Before that, it was BitGold.

247
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Then it was before that it was Charming Cash or like so many iterations that everybody has its pluses and minuses.

248
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But at some point, the practical use case how it should be is Bitcoin. I think the social identity and stuff like that is in that iteration. That's why I don't know if it will work or it will fail. But in the process, we will not lose. Like even if that is not the proper protocol.

249
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But because, again, it's digital identity plus digital money, something that we don't have anywhere else.

250
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So that's the way that we should experiment and develop.

251
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There's some very strong votes of confidence for Nostra, right?

252
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You've got Jeff Booth, who left Twitter to go to Nostra.

253
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He's very visionary in that realm.

254
00:23:52,740 --> 00:24:03,520
um, Lynn Alden, um, uh, Jack Dorsey. Um, and so it is encouraging to know that there are a lot of

255
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:11,900
smart people that are, um, putting their time into that space, I guess. Um, yeah, when,

256
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when we talked with Jason Lowry, um, and unfortunately we weren't able to, to record it,

257
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:40,620
But when we talked with Jason Lowry, he's the one that first kind of gave us this idea of the Internet being rebuilt on Bitcoin and kind of describing what that might be like, which would be that, you know, basically you can create a wall around your digital identity and you can reach through the wall to get anything that you want.

258
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I want this video. I want this song. But if someone wants to reach through your wall to show you an ad, to put you a product in front of you, then they have to pay a certain amount of sats. They have to pay you a certain amount of Bitcoin in order to reach you.

259
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And this is that idea of building a wall of Bitcoin that can only be penetrated by Bitcoin, that Bitcoin is both the castle wall and the cannonball.

260
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it's a fascinating concept and when I look at Noster with your ability to choose your own

261
00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:29,640
algorithm with your ability to control basically what you see it's it's not easy to do if you

262
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aren't technical but it it can be done and presumably it will become easier I envision

263
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that I'll have a slider and I'll just be able to push that slider over and say that

264
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If you give me 50 sats, you can show me an ad, something like that. But that falls in line with the software thesis. I think Noster has that ability. And I know that we're all kind of just trying to learn in real time on this.

265
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who in your mind is the most technical person,

266
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the best technical expert on Noster?

267
00:26:07,820 --> 00:26:09,120
Because I want to reach out to him

268
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and continue this conversation with him as well.

269
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:18,040
Well, last year it was Pablo,

270
00:26:18,420 --> 00:26:20,800
but I don't know his last name.

271
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I think he is the person that made the most ups on Noster.

272
00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:33,360
like okay he is the one that created highlighter he did uh some client that looks like instagram

273
00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:41,840
he did other stuff like uh yeah and uh you can find him only on monster but uh he's one of the

274
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most popular guys so it will be hard to reach out to him i just bumped into him in one of the

275
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conferences and we chatted.

276
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But

277
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yeah, well, if you can reach

278
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:54,940
out to him, he is definitely

279
00:26:54,940 --> 00:26:57,480
the one to talk to

280
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about this. And

281
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the other is Derek Ross.

282
00:27:01,140 --> 00:27:03,540
They joke about that he's

283
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the CEO of Nostar.

284
00:27:05,140 --> 00:27:06,400
You say Derek?

285
00:27:07,220 --> 00:27:08,740
I think Derek Ross.

286
00:27:09,180 --> 00:27:09,760
Derek Ross.

287
00:27:10,620 --> 00:27:11,280
Derek Ross.

288
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:12,160
Yes.

289
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So those two guys,

290
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if you want to talk Nostar

291
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,440
deep dive behind the scenes

292
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:20,340
what's happening.

293
00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:23,420
But I wanted to go back

294
00:27:23,420 --> 00:27:23,900
into

295
00:27:23,900 --> 00:27:27,220
your analogy

296
00:27:27,220 --> 00:27:29,040
about Bitcoin will be

297
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,020
the cyber shield and the cannonball

298
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where

299
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the whole internet will be built.

300
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And

301
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,240
your example, yes,

302
00:27:39,420 --> 00:27:41,340
those are true. And I wanted

303
00:27:41,340 --> 00:27:43,640
to bring out that in our last conversation

304
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,460
that idea that I

305
00:27:45,460 --> 00:27:46,940
had for you about people

306
00:27:46,940 --> 00:27:49,360
voting for what books to read

307
00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:51,020
is we missed

308
00:27:51,020 --> 00:27:52,460
a very big

309
00:27:52,460 --> 00:27:54,680
software case there

310
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:56,500
that you said

311
00:27:56,500 --> 00:27:59,060
what you don't like about that

312
00:27:59,060 --> 00:28:00,960
idea is audience

313
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,160
capture and that

314
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:04,700
can't happen because

315
00:28:04,700 --> 00:28:06,980
that's not somebody

316
00:28:06,980 --> 00:28:08,820
commenting about it

317
00:28:08,820 --> 00:28:11,140
your comment you could never

318
00:28:11,140 --> 00:28:12,500
be audience captured

319
00:28:12,500 --> 00:28:14,820
when somebody votes with their

320
00:28:14,820 --> 00:28:23,080
such because the audience capture is actually the use case what you talked about joe rogan or

321
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:28,980
whoever is very famous in the cyberspace because there is no shield they can't protect themselves

322
00:28:28,980 --> 00:28:36,780
they can get audience capture because it costs almost nothing to comment but if it costs something

323
00:28:36,780 --> 00:28:43,640
that's a completely different thing that means that uh what jason also said here and there is that

324
00:28:44,820 --> 00:28:50,460
If somebody attacks you, you want them to attack you because it costs them.

325
00:28:50,460 --> 00:28:56,940
And not only it costs them, but that value transferred for you if you create the architecture properly.

326
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:31,641
So let imagine this for the idea that I had for you that somebody says oh read that book and they vote to SATs whatever But somebody outvotes them I go and I not just stingy and give you two stats but I give you 20 stats to read a particular book Now he needs to outcompete me for the best price But not only that you might read that book and he just a spammer trying to attack you and you delete his comment

327
00:29:31,641 --> 00:29:39,921
Now, in order for him to audience capture you, he has to put up more sets and it's in your control.

328
00:29:40,181 --> 00:29:45,581
And that's the use case that we completely missed in our last conversation.

329
00:29:45,861 --> 00:29:55,781
And again, this is not in Noster, but something that you can completely create through the structure and the design because you know the theory of software.

330
00:29:56,161 --> 00:29:58,661
But now in practice, you can apply it.

331
00:29:58,661 --> 00:30:03,601
And now you don't need to tell anybody, oh, this is a cyber shield.

332
00:30:03,781 --> 00:30:04,721
Oh, this is a weapon.

333
00:30:04,941 --> 00:30:10,381
Oh, Bitcoin is violence or whatever those terms that they hate and they trash Jason about.

334
00:30:10,381 --> 00:30:13,801
But they'll say, oh, this is not a weapon.

335
00:30:14,121 --> 00:30:16,121
This is a paywall.

336
00:30:16,761 --> 00:30:17,541
Like, whatever.

337
00:30:18,421 --> 00:30:25,741
Like, it's like saying, like, the practical use case is less important than theory.

338
00:30:26,041 --> 00:30:28,141
Like, does it matter what is the label?

339
00:30:28,141 --> 00:30:53,201
Like, use it properly and some websites will be protected through this cyber shield because I was thinking also that the solution that makes Bitcoin work, the proof of work mechanism where people do calculations with their computers so you don't receive spam.

340
00:30:53,201 --> 00:31:02,521
Now you don't need to even do that because one SAT is a representation of that proof of work.

341
00:31:03,061 --> 00:31:10,781
So the work was already done in order to accumulate a SAT, two SATs or whatever amount.

342
00:31:11,081 --> 00:31:15,361
So you don't need to even do those calculations preventing spam.

343
00:31:15,481 --> 00:31:16,661
You just need to do this.

344
00:31:17,061 --> 00:31:19,381
Oh, you want to email me?

345
00:31:19,701 --> 00:31:22,221
Give me one SAT or anything else.

346
00:31:22,221 --> 00:31:37,941
You don't need to do some of the solutions that developers do right now is if somebody tries to spam me, we're going to block them if they send, let's say, 50 emails in a span of like an hour.

347
00:31:37,941 --> 00:31:43,441
Like, yeah, but you still receive 50 unwanted emails and you receive nothing for it.

348
00:31:43,821 --> 00:31:52,861
But if that is too sad, like, okay, you received 100 Satoshis kind of for free and you can still ignore him.

349
00:31:53,181 --> 00:31:59,501
But if somebody actively attacks you, you can increase even the price and all sorts of implications of what he's saying.

350
00:31:59,841 --> 00:32:06,621
And does it matter if they call it a weapon or just, okay, this is just how things work now.

351
00:32:06,621 --> 00:32:24,321
But if people don't understand the theory and don't understand not only software, but Bitcoin itself, and they don't understand computers and all sorts of things, and they don't even care about the user experience, how are we going to get there?

352
00:32:24,501 --> 00:32:25,541
It's so hard.

353
00:32:25,701 --> 00:32:30,281
And that is what I'm really struggling with everything.

354
00:32:30,281 --> 00:32:33,681
The lucky thing, what you said, that I'm on the edge.

355
00:32:34,441 --> 00:32:45,721
I am very lucky because I'm in a company with very big visionaries that they foresaw this for Lightning and how things work very far into the future.

356
00:32:46,041 --> 00:32:49,321
But their technologies for 30 plus years practice.

357
00:32:50,261 --> 00:32:53,221
And yeah, I'll just stop here.

358
00:32:53,221 --> 00:32:55,601
but that's what I wanted to mention

359
00:32:55,601 --> 00:32:57,821
that we missed the software use case

360
00:32:57,821 --> 00:32:59,661
of my idea and you

361
00:32:59,661 --> 00:33:01,701
talking about audience capture

362
00:33:01,701 --> 00:33:03,461
Grant

363
00:33:03,461 --> 00:33:05,581
you've been stoically stroking

364
00:33:05,581 --> 00:33:07,781
your mustache and calmly taking

365
00:33:07,781 --> 00:33:09,781
a drink and by the way I do have

366
00:33:09,781 --> 00:33:11,781
to compliment you because I can tell

367
00:33:11,781 --> 00:33:13,721
that your hair looks fantastic

368
00:33:13,721 --> 00:33:15,581
today. What do you want to

369
00:33:15,581 --> 00:33:17,281
share here? What are you thinking about?

370
00:33:17,361 --> 00:33:19,261
As far as hair care secrets? No, no

371
00:33:19,261 --> 00:33:21,641
keep those to yourself. No, so Ivan

372
00:33:21,641 --> 00:33:22,781
when I was listening to you

373
00:33:22,781 --> 00:33:31,441
a couple of things occurred to me. So one is, it seems like it's still audience capture,

374
00:33:31,621 --> 00:33:39,181
just audience capture to the highest bidder, which maybe is an okay thing if you want your goal with

375
00:33:39,181 --> 00:33:46,501
a podcast or an artistic creation is, you want patronage, and you want a fuel to drive you

376
00:33:46,501 --> 00:33:52,921
forward. In that case, it makes sense. And you still have erected a defensive wall guarding your

377
00:33:52,921 --> 00:34:01,301
time, but not maybe guarding the artistic direction, the agency that is more important than

378
00:34:01,301 --> 00:34:06,501
the value that you receive. I don't know that it's a critique because that just goes maybe to

379
00:34:06,501 --> 00:34:15,081
the motivation of the person who is putting out the thing that they want to guide. They want to

380
00:34:15,081 --> 00:34:21,721
give value in a sense, but irrespective of the value they receive up front. They think that their

381
00:34:21,721 --> 00:34:28,601
value, the value given may be asymmetric to people's desire to receive a certain sort of value.

382
00:34:29,181 --> 00:34:33,581
The more, the craft way to put that is people may not know what they want or what they need.

383
00:34:33,701 --> 00:34:39,781
And so, for example, like we read Human Forever, and I think that's a book that not a lot of people,

384
00:34:39,781 --> 00:34:42,401
is not on a lot of people's radar,

385
00:34:42,761 --> 00:34:45,621
but I was eager to read it exactly for that reason.

386
00:34:46,061 --> 00:34:48,741
Not because I would receive value up front,

387
00:34:49,021 --> 00:34:51,861
but because I thought the value that we would put out

388
00:34:51,861 --> 00:34:53,841
by bringing to the people's attention

389
00:34:53,841 --> 00:34:55,721
something that they might not know

390
00:34:55,721 --> 00:34:58,821
was going to be asymmetric to anything

391
00:34:58,821 --> 00:34:59,781
we could receive up front

392
00:34:59,781 --> 00:35:01,341
and was going to be good for that reason.

393
00:35:01,421 --> 00:35:02,321
That's maybe not a critique,

394
00:35:02,441 --> 00:35:04,321
because again, that just goes to the motivation

395
00:35:04,321 --> 00:35:06,021
of the person creating the thing.

396
00:35:06,021 --> 00:35:12,941
so I don't one thing that I want to hear your thoughts on though is in this piece that we read

397
00:35:12,941 --> 00:35:19,301
which is the latest version of your thinking on split payments kind of a

398
00:35:19,961 --> 00:35:26,001
a summary of your previous articles in the form of one article that prehends kind of a

399
00:35:26,001 --> 00:35:30,241
comprehensive vision of your thought this article from September in Bitcoin magazine

400
00:35:30,241 --> 00:35:38,381
you again talk about split payments it seems that you really do think that split payments

401
00:35:38,381 --> 00:35:46,901
are the mechanism by which bitcoin becomes we arrive at hyper bitcoinization we maybe don't

402
00:35:46,901 --> 00:35:53,621
have to as lucas direly notes wait for the collapse of the fiat economy we can lean on

403
00:35:53,621 --> 00:35:59,281
the utility of what the lightning network offers which is something heretofore unimaginable which

404
00:35:59,281 --> 00:36:00,321
is split payments.

405
00:36:02,461 --> 00:36:04,001
And there's a, so I want to get,

406
00:36:04,121 --> 00:36:04,821
I want to see if you can,

407
00:36:05,361 --> 00:36:07,601
if split payments doesn't some way integrate

408
00:36:07,601 --> 00:36:12,221
with your idea on preventing audience capture,

409
00:36:12,321 --> 00:36:15,001
if there's any sort of way to integrate those two thoughts.

410
00:36:15,241 --> 00:36:18,641
But also just as a really great line from this article

411
00:36:18,641 --> 00:36:20,481
that I want to not leave behind,

412
00:36:21,001 --> 00:36:24,021
and it's that split payments will mean

413
00:36:24,021 --> 00:36:28,961
that finance will spread out in a decentralized way

414
00:36:28,961 --> 00:36:34,761
with organizations that aren't single entities, but distributed networks, it seems like your

415
00:36:34,761 --> 00:36:42,021
vision of split payments gets rid of the idea of the corporation, a centralized business entity,

416
00:36:42,321 --> 00:36:48,641
and allows in lieu of that decentralized networks of people that act as if they were a corporation

417
00:36:48,641 --> 00:36:53,521
because they're suddenly bound together by the ability to receive payment as if they were part

418
00:36:53,521 --> 00:36:58,741
of one. So that's a few thoughts thrown out there, but I want to get your thoughts on those.

419
00:36:58,961 --> 00:37:15,781
Yes. So the first thing about what you said that you want to put value out there, just because I'm talking about people sending sats in order to comment or something.

420
00:37:15,781 --> 00:37:18,581
First of all, you create the design.

421
00:37:18,881 --> 00:37:22,601
I'm talking about the protective case against audience capture.

422
00:37:22,861 --> 00:37:30,941
First of all, that doesn't mean that you are completely autonomous or you're completely captured.

423
00:37:31,341 --> 00:37:32,421
Like there is in between.

424
00:37:32,601 --> 00:37:43,461
So obviously you can choose whatever you want to read because you feel or you can listen to your audience and what they want and they really voted for it.

425
00:37:43,461 --> 00:37:57,301
But I was just saying the use case of software, like one thing is attacking you through cyberspace and you put the physical cost limitation in order to do that.

426
00:37:57,301 --> 00:38:10,221
I'm talking about against that. That was my comment. That doesn't mean that if you want, you cannot, you can even continue to read how you read and you don't even create this experience because you want to read whatever you want.

427
00:38:10,221 --> 00:38:12,261
You don't even want to listen to the audience.

428
00:38:12,821 --> 00:38:16,001
But let's take it a step further about the split payment.

429
00:38:16,661 --> 00:38:23,941
Yes, I realized that even after writing the CISA articles,

430
00:38:24,061 --> 00:38:29,841
the first time when I was writing about it,

431
00:38:29,921 --> 00:38:36,101
but when I had the conversation with you and even going deeper about those thoughts,

432
00:38:36,101 --> 00:38:42,981
is, okay, like what happens really if we receive split payments?

433
00:38:42,981 --> 00:38:48,301
Okay, it could be between companies, but the more and more thinking

434
00:38:48,301 --> 00:38:51,441
and in all those examples that I gave in the articles is

435
00:38:51,441 --> 00:38:55,581
at the end, a human should receive the value.

436
00:38:55,821 --> 00:38:58,621
It's not some type of entity abstract thing.

437
00:38:59,041 --> 00:39:05,181
Like, so if at the end is the human, like that means that the institutions,

438
00:39:05,181 --> 00:39:12,561
companies and everything is just in between and not only that i realized that that is how the fiat

439
00:39:12,561 --> 00:39:20,721
system captures the part of society that needs bitcoin the most because if you're an employee

440
00:39:20,721 --> 00:39:31,221
in a company now you cannot run away let's not be that uh you can't run away completely with

441
00:39:31,221 --> 00:39:39,021
what taxes you pay or not pay because you don't even see that money the company pays it and they

442
00:39:39,021 --> 00:39:45,501
will definitely pay it because they want to proceed in the environment but i was thinking let's say

443
00:39:45,501 --> 00:39:53,741
50 years ago or something how many mom and pub shops there were uh did they pay all their taxes

444
00:39:53,741 --> 00:40:00,201
is that maybe the reason why they didn't feel the inflation so much

445
00:40:00,201 --> 00:40:02,341
or all the problems that are in society now.

446
00:40:02,341 --> 00:40:06,881
And through a hundred years now of centralizing forces,

447
00:40:07,381 --> 00:40:10,581
like how many mom and pop shops closed down

448
00:40:10,581 --> 00:40:13,801
because they can't afford the raising prices.

449
00:40:14,001 --> 00:40:17,281
And because of that, now they get into the centralized point

450
00:40:17,281 --> 00:40:21,621
where they extract the most taxes for the employers.

451
00:40:21,621 --> 00:40:31,061
So, again, I didn't expect this, but it's just, again, a second and third order effect of all those centralizing forces.

452
00:40:31,941 --> 00:40:41,821
And split payments is exactly the reverse that, yeah, you start, let's say, you are two hosts right now.

453
00:40:42,121 --> 00:40:43,261
You can split it by two.

454
00:40:43,261 --> 00:40:59,221
But what happens when not only people vote with their stats, but you invite a guest to have a podcast with and you say, okay, we're going to split with the guest, whatever people voluntarily give you stats for.

455
00:40:59,221 --> 00:41:13,941
So not only that, but you will have guests that want to be on your show because they will receive some type of value or they will vote to read their book so they can even be on your show.

456
00:41:13,941 --> 00:41:25,901
I'm saying those are experiences and forces that will motivate human action that are completely different than the fiat platforms that we have now.

457
00:41:26,381 --> 00:41:31,681
That I appear on a podcast, that podcast receives 11,000 views.

458
00:41:32,381 --> 00:41:40,741
And it turns out that in the first 20% of the whole video, the audio shuts down.

459
00:41:40,741 --> 00:41:44,961
And after 11,000 views, somebody says, oh, there's a problem in the video.

460
00:41:45,101 --> 00:41:46,421
So what does that mean?

461
00:41:46,741 --> 00:41:50,481
Did 11,000 people watch it or those were just bots?

462
00:41:50,781 --> 00:41:52,201
I can't even prove that.

463
00:41:52,721 --> 00:42:01,281
But with that human experience and it costs you something and it gives like that connects you in so many different ways.

464
00:42:01,501 --> 00:42:05,661
And I just, again, stumbled onto it, thinking about it.

465
00:42:05,661 --> 00:42:08,601
And this is it.

466
00:42:08,741 --> 00:42:09,641
Yes, split payments.

467
00:42:09,641 --> 00:42:14,941
You start from something, but that is the very, very further down the line.

468
00:42:15,241 --> 00:42:20,861
I don't know if software will be first or the split payment idea, disintegrating even corporations.

469
00:42:22,661 --> 00:42:31,061
But yeah, I think if we get on that path, we'll get there eventually because we don't need some entities, corporations.

470
00:42:31,061 --> 00:42:56,161
I need the money now and I want to use my resources however see fit and because it doesn't have any cost to carry it to hold it or anything else. Why would I even create bank accounts in Bulgaria? I don't know in in US, but if I have a personal account, I'm not I don't have a fee by the bank. That's not tax.

471
00:42:56,161 --> 00:42:59,821
But if I have a corporate account, every month they charge me.

472
00:43:00,221 --> 00:43:06,681
Like not only that, but now I have to have an account and I have to have this and I have to pay this and that and this.

473
00:43:07,101 --> 00:43:09,241
And what business can you own?

474
00:43:09,461 --> 00:43:13,361
And with split payments, I don't need to have any of that.

475
00:43:13,581 --> 00:43:15,461
I don't need to be in any jurisdiction.

476
00:43:16,141 --> 00:43:21,221
I just need to create the best service, product or whatever.

477
00:43:21,221 --> 00:43:28,241
And I need to find a marketer that, yeah, I'll tell him, I'll give you 20% of whatever we sell.

478
00:43:28,641 --> 00:43:30,921
And I need to find some accountant.

479
00:43:32,201 --> 00:43:34,161
Why? I don't even need an accountant.

480
00:43:34,561 --> 00:43:36,901
Like the payment is the accounting itself.

481
00:43:37,781 --> 00:43:45,161
But I just need to figure out who I want to be in my core team to create this.

482
00:43:45,541 --> 00:43:48,421
And I don't even know how far it will go.

483
00:43:48,421 --> 00:43:51,561
But those were the thoughts there.

484
00:43:51,921 --> 00:43:57,381
So you don't need a legal fiction to preside over the creation of value.

485
00:43:57,641 --> 00:44:06,641
You just need an intricate set of payment channels that is going to reward everybody as if they were all aligned with the same mission.

486
00:44:06,761 --> 00:44:10,521
And they presumably will be if they're receiving value, if that mission succeeds.

487
00:44:10,521 --> 00:44:34,781
I was reading a book. I've been reading this book on the development of the legal liability concept of limiting legal liability. And there's a famous quote that a law professor was asked, like, what is the biggest innovation of the 20th century? You know, is like electricity or the steam engine or something like that? And he says, it is the legal liability corporation, the ability to limit legal liability.

488
00:44:34,781 --> 00:44:51,081
And the thing about Bitcoin is its law is code. It is something where you move outside the law in a sense because you don't need to regulate the conduct of individuals with law backed by violence.

489
00:44:51,081 --> 00:45:05,801
You can instead regulate conduct through, again, maybe an intricate set of payment channels, splitting payments seamlessly amongst a set of individuals with no need to arbitrate disputes other than the operation of those channels themselves.

490
00:45:06,281 --> 00:45:09,661
I mean, is that kind of how you see what split payments could be?

491
00:45:09,781 --> 00:45:18,281
Some way to easily add people to a structure of payment channels in order to obviate the need for that legal fiction?

492
00:45:18,421 --> 00:45:19,461
Is that the right way to put it?

493
00:45:20,261 --> 00:45:20,741
Yeah.

494
00:45:21,081 --> 00:45:22,921
Absolutely, that's it.

495
00:45:23,041 --> 00:45:26,001
And what's the DeFi Bros promise?

496
00:45:26,001 --> 00:45:29,521
That is the split payments.

497
00:45:29,881 --> 00:45:34,921
You don't need some technical term that, oh, it's so fancy or whatever,

498
00:45:35,141 --> 00:45:36,901
and come by into my scam.

499
00:45:37,801 --> 00:45:39,441
You just split the payment.

500
00:45:39,721 --> 00:45:46,641
You say, let's say I split it three ways, one third each or whatever,

501
00:45:47,181 --> 00:45:49,341
and somebody doesn't do their work.

502
00:45:49,341 --> 00:45:53,941
okay, you're out of our split payments or we need to add somebody,

503
00:45:54,121 --> 00:45:56,061
what is the proper value that we give them?

504
00:45:56,501 --> 00:46:00,081
And I'm saying it's reshaping everything.

505
00:46:00,261 --> 00:46:06,161
Because what Jason also says is that every law is created after the blood was spilled.

506
00:46:07,061 --> 00:46:13,601
So houses, gold, whatever came after the proof of work mechanism

507
00:46:13,601 --> 00:46:15,701
where you can't unsubscribe for.

508
00:46:15,701 --> 00:46:19,321
So the winner now can set the proper rules.

509
00:46:20,001 --> 00:46:31,921
But when in the cyberspace, we have a proof of work mechanism and that code doesn't require any blood, you fight for the value provided.

510
00:46:32,081 --> 00:46:37,241
What Jeff Booth says, like you either provide the most value and people use it or you don't.

511
00:46:37,321 --> 00:46:39,141
And you're outcompeted.

512
00:46:39,141 --> 00:46:50,321
and the abstraction of things will be disintegrated in so many ways.

513
00:46:50,321 --> 00:46:57,881
This is just one way of me thinking and that doesn't mean that they'll completely disappear forever.

514
00:46:58,161 --> 00:47:03,281
I believe just like with credit, some forms will always exist.

515
00:47:03,281 --> 00:47:13,561
Just like today, sending a letter with post stamps, you can still do that, but it will be like that.

516
00:47:13,741 --> 00:47:19,021
It will be like 0.1% of all the letters sent or something.

517
00:47:20,021 --> 00:47:25,501
And it will give autonomy and power to the individual.

518
00:47:25,861 --> 00:47:29,021
And it will create more and more that.

519
00:47:29,021 --> 00:47:52,001
And because it gives more power to the individual, that individual, even if that split payment doesn't work for him, because he can attain more of his purchasing power, he can say, okay, I will create my own product network or anything else.

520
00:47:52,001 --> 00:48:01,501
But now the reverse, going back to the mom and pop shops, why they have to be forced into employment, into some corporation?

521
00:48:01,841 --> 00:48:09,181
Because that corporation, again, is the only one that can survive the big taxes and all sorts of inflation.

522
00:48:09,541 --> 00:48:16,281
Not only that, but they are probably much higher in the chain of the closer to the money printer.

523
00:48:16,621 --> 00:48:18,781
So they can scheme some type of way.

524
00:48:18,781 --> 00:48:24,261
And the mom and pub shops are forced those people to go into those corporations.

525
00:48:24,541 --> 00:48:25,921
That's, again, centralizing force.

526
00:48:26,321 --> 00:48:32,921
When you give power to the individual, that centralizing force becomes a decentralizing force.

527
00:48:33,181 --> 00:48:33,261
Yeah.

528
00:48:33,681 --> 00:48:35,381
And this maybe goes to...

529
00:48:35,381 --> 00:48:37,621
I have no idea how many things will change.

530
00:48:37,921 --> 00:48:38,121
Yeah.

531
00:48:38,701 --> 00:48:40,001
A few ideas.

532
00:48:41,821 --> 00:48:44,161
It's just a world that we can't even imagine.

533
00:48:44,161 --> 00:48:55,901
So the failure mode you kind of imagine for Noster, or not even the failure mode, but where it's currently lacking is UI. So this is maybe something that's directly to the heart of what you think about daily.

534
00:48:55,901 --> 00:49:08,781
But what does the one-click UI for split payments look like so that the mom and pop can construct this surrogate for the corporation?

535
00:49:09,381 --> 00:49:13,921
And it's also transparent to the people so that they don't need to know code.

536
00:49:13,921 --> 00:49:24,681
And yet they can be assured that agreements they're entering into are fair, that they can audit it for themselves without having to have technical expertise, for example.

537
00:49:24,681 --> 00:49:28,481
What does, is there going to be that sort of UI?

538
00:49:30,461 --> 00:49:33,581
First of all, UI is user interface.

539
00:49:33,981 --> 00:49:36,441
So yeah, like UI is kind of good in Noster.

540
00:49:36,521 --> 00:49:40,201
I'm talking about UX, like the whole experience.

541
00:49:40,641 --> 00:49:46,001
Because a UX that fails in Noster is somebody sends me a message and I don't see it.

542
00:49:46,441 --> 00:49:50,201
Like the message is somewhere out there, but I don't see it.

543
00:49:50,201 --> 00:49:53,421
So the UI is shiny and stuff like that.

544
00:49:53,501 --> 00:49:54,661
But that's what I'm talking about.

545
00:49:54,681 --> 00:50:05,201
Or the big UX challenge for the Lightning Network was and still is opening and closing channels.

546
00:50:05,641 --> 00:50:12,241
Like that concept for our fiat experience, we're not used to it.

547
00:50:12,541 --> 00:50:17,241
And it's so hard to explain even to the Bitcoiners out there.

548
00:50:17,561 --> 00:50:19,781
Like, why the hell am I paying a fee now?

549
00:50:20,001 --> 00:50:21,841
Why the hell did you close my channel?

550
00:50:21,841 --> 00:50:23,001
And all sorts of things.

551
00:50:23,201 --> 00:50:24,581
And that's a UX challenge.

552
00:50:24,681 --> 00:50:32,181
Even though it has benefits, but people are used to, this is a number on the screen and I can spend it or receive more.

553
00:50:32,341 --> 00:50:35,001
I don't need to think about all those behind the scenes stuff.

554
00:50:35,001 --> 00:50:44,061
So that's the thing that was very, again, it's bad user experience for the Lightning Network.

555
00:50:44,061 --> 00:51:00,701
What Breeze realized is that we can abstract it away that we don't even become a Lightning service provider, but we offer a few implementations either on the Liquid network or with Spark now.

556
00:51:00,701 --> 00:51:03,941
and what Lucas said, no less implementation.

557
00:51:03,941 --> 00:51:06,761
That means that we take even that burden

558
00:51:06,761 --> 00:51:09,261
and you just take care of,

559
00:51:09,441 --> 00:51:11,101
oh, I send this amount of stats,

560
00:51:11,281 --> 00:51:13,581
this will be this amount of fee to send it

561
00:51:13,581 --> 00:51:15,441
or to receive it and that's it.

562
00:51:15,581 --> 00:51:18,261
And that's getting us very, very close

563
00:51:18,261 --> 00:51:20,921
to the user experience on the Lightning Network,

564
00:51:21,061 --> 00:51:22,881
what people are used to with Fiat.

565
00:51:23,581 --> 00:51:26,581
And that is what I'm talking about,

566
00:51:26,721 --> 00:51:29,241
how we should think even in the mom and pop shop.

567
00:51:29,241 --> 00:51:47,721
Like you can create any website again, but if when I click and it doesn't send the email, even if it's not Bitcoin, if you created that structure and the person doesn't receive email for the order, that is a bad user experience.

568
00:51:47,721 --> 00:51:49,181
So he'll leave.

569
00:51:49,521 --> 00:51:50,601
The same thing with Noster.

570
00:51:50,881 --> 00:51:53,061
Or I'm entering now.

571
00:51:53,261 --> 00:51:57,481
The biggest challenge for Noster is when you enter Noster,

572
00:51:58,441 --> 00:51:59,721
to enter is very easy.

573
00:52:00,061 --> 00:52:03,101
To switch from one client is so easy.

574
00:52:04,021 --> 00:52:05,761
And we never had that.

575
00:52:06,121 --> 00:52:09,321
But when you enter and you don't follow anybody

576
00:52:09,321 --> 00:52:12,821
and nobody follows you, you don't see anything.

577
00:52:13,241 --> 00:52:16,541
That is the biggest hurdle in the user experience in Noster.

578
00:52:16,541 --> 00:52:33,001
So somebody needs to figure out how the hell I get my social network because when you enter X, Facebook, Instagram, whatever those fiat experiences, they feed your algorithm so you stay.

579
00:52:33,001 --> 00:52:46,081
In Noster, there's nothing like that for you to stay. You have to brute force your way into commenting and like, not even liking, but zapping or whatever you want to do and it's still.

580
00:52:46,081 --> 00:52:58,201
So hard. And it's so much harder than YouTube and not only that and other platforms, but you receive still less zaps for it.

581
00:52:58,841 --> 00:53:11,981
Let's say musicians are one of the groups that are suited for Noster because they receive crap from everywhere else.

582
00:53:11,981 --> 00:53:20,621
So on Money Wise, Noster is beating the fiat platforms for zapping, receiving actual money.

583
00:53:21,261 --> 00:53:26,541
But that is the UX, I think, that is preventing people to adopt it faster.

584
00:53:26,941 --> 00:53:32,841
Like when you sign up, nobody sees your messages because nobody is following you.

585
00:53:32,921 --> 00:53:35,881
And you see almost nothing because you don't follow anybody.

586
00:53:35,881 --> 00:53:43,081
So when somebody figures out that user experience, I think the adoption will go faster.

587
00:53:44,321 --> 00:53:51,101
Yeah, that when Facebook first came out, that's how that was, right?

588
00:53:51,161 --> 00:53:53,981
You didn't find people unless you were looking for them.

589
00:53:54,061 --> 00:53:56,121
They didn't find you unless they were looking for you.

590
00:53:56,121 --> 00:54:05,961
Um, and there's kind of a, be careful what you wish for part of, of this, right?

591
00:54:06,041 --> 00:54:12,201
Where, um, yes, maybe we do want the algorithm so that we can quickly gain an audience.

592
00:54:12,761 --> 00:54:18,901
Um, but then the flip side of that is I'm, I'm currently reading the book Dopamine Nation

593
00:54:18,901 --> 00:54:22,741
by Anna Lemke, um, which is talking about addiction.

594
00:54:22,741 --> 00:54:42,121
And, you know, addiction is the same. Neurologically, it's the same, whether it's addiction to pornography or sex or heroin or alcohol or screens or shopping or exercise.

595
00:54:42,121 --> 00:54:48,761
even these all these addictions are the same they're processed in the same part of the brain

596
00:54:48,761 --> 00:54:56,021
and the only difference in them is how much dopamine each of these activities puts into your

597
00:54:56,021 --> 00:55:06,701
dopamine pathways and so I I tread lightly I guess on this idea that we should hyper

598
00:55:06,701 --> 00:55:14,821
you know that we should make Nostra just like Instagram or just like TikTok in terms of the

599
00:55:14,821 --> 00:55:19,241
the addictiveness of it but I completely understand your point because I experienced

600
00:55:19,241 --> 00:55:27,101
that as well so I've been on Nostra for about uh actively I guess and and not very active but

601
00:55:27,101 --> 00:55:31,461
somewhat actively for about six months seven months something like that and I I think I maybe

602
00:55:31,461 --> 00:55:39,481
have like 50 or 60 followers. And you're right. It does make it difficult because I go and I post

603
00:55:39,481 --> 00:55:46,961
the podcast, I post my music and I know that I'm just screaming into the void. I'm just dumping

604
00:55:46,961 --> 00:55:53,981
this and no one's going to see it. So yeah, there is a kind of a chicken and egg type of thing where

605
00:55:53,981 --> 00:56:00,581
you want to build up the audience so that what you post has value, but you can't build up the

606
00:56:00,581 --> 00:56:07,001
audience unless what you're posting has value. Um, and I think that's just kind of what a creator

607
00:56:07,001 --> 00:56:16,581
has to be able to commit to, which is that you, um, your reward as a creator is the creation of

608
00:56:16,581 --> 00:56:25,381
the gift. And the, the thing that you do then is you give it away. I read the other day that was

609
00:56:25,381 --> 00:56:34,361
like the um your mission is your mission is in life is to find is to find your gift and your

610
00:56:34,361 --> 00:56:40,261
purpose is to then give that gift away um you know so if you're you're a good teacher then you you

611
00:56:40,261 --> 00:56:47,061
find the love and the joy of teaching and then what you do as a gift is that you present that

612
00:56:47,061 --> 00:56:53,981
to the world um and people now because we have bitcoin we have nostril we have lightning we have

613
00:56:53,981 --> 00:56:58,761
the ability to reward people more proportionally for their gifts.

614
00:57:00,161 --> 00:57:05,241
That does put me on the side of like believing in the rise of the creator during this era

615
00:57:05,241 --> 00:57:13,601
and really believing in a return towards something resembling the Renaissance age.

616
00:57:14,701 --> 00:57:19,301
You know, Grant mentioned, you know, having patrons, which is how, you know, that's how

617
00:57:19,301 --> 00:57:24,861
Da Vinci and Michelangelo and all of these guys, they got by, they, um, they took commissions from

618
00:57:24,861 --> 00:57:30,161
rich people, Hey, you know, paint my ugly wife and make her look hot. Uh, and they were able to

619
00:57:30,161 --> 00:57:37,761
take that money and then create beautiful works that came out of their own minds. Um, and, uh,

620
00:57:38,201 --> 00:57:46,561
and so I, I think that part of that is selling out, but it's also, it's selling out in order to

621
00:57:46,561 --> 00:57:53,861
maintain your integrity in a way where I'll take your money so that I can, I'll take your money and

622
00:57:53,861 --> 00:57:59,061
I'll do this thing that I don't necessarily believe in. Like maybe Grant and I put up a website and

623
00:57:59,061 --> 00:58:05,061
somebody comes in and they suggest that we read, you know, whatever, Cat in the Hat or how to

624
00:58:05,061 --> 00:58:12,681
identify the 728 genders at a glance. And we're like, okay, well, if you pay us a million sats,

625
00:58:12,681 --> 00:58:33,882
Cool We do that And then we go do something we want with that money And um yeah so I think you you really need to have a question about like does selling out or does audience capture is it something that happens to everyone regardless

626
00:58:34,282 --> 00:58:40,762
Or is it something that is a choice that you make that you allow your soul to be sold?

627
00:58:42,002 --> 00:58:44,642
And maybe your soul is a lot like Bitcoin.

628
00:58:44,882 --> 00:58:46,102
Maybe it can't be taken.

629
00:58:46,262 --> 00:58:47,622
Maybe it can only be given away.

630
00:58:49,122 --> 00:58:52,323
Might be something to think about there, I guess.

631
00:58:52,722 --> 00:59:14,962
Um, yeah, so I, I love hearing you talk about, I love hearing you talk about Noster. I believe in what it's going to do. And I want to focus more on that. Um, what are the other things that you're seeing? I guess. Oh, by the way, I did want to have a throw out, uh, cause Grant asked the question about the great user experience. What's the great user experience?

632
00:59:14,962 --> 00:59:32,823
I do want to say, I'm not experienced with breezes, but Adam Smecca, who is on here with his MANA Bitcoin wallet, it's not the wallet that impresses me. It's the point of sale system, which I can, his nine-year-old daughter showed me how to set up this point of sale system.

633
00:59:32,823 --> 00:59:38,063
and she would be able to say, okay, Ivan, you're selling turkeys. Lucas, you're selling baseball

634
00:59:38,063 --> 00:59:42,182
bats. Grant, you're selling used tires. We're going to put them all in there. Everybody has

635
00:59:42,182 --> 00:59:48,162
their address. And then John can come up and he can walk up and buy a turkey, a baseball bat,

636
00:59:48,162 --> 00:59:53,942
and a used tire. Pay one time. We all get paid instantly. And it was brilliant. So I think we're

637
00:59:53,942 --> 01:00:00,302
really moving there. And he had mentioned that like month over month growth was like over 500%.

638
01:00:00,302 --> 01:00:08,523
You work directly in Lightning and in the applications that Breeze puts out.

639
01:00:08,702 --> 01:00:17,222
And Breeze is really forward in this because they sponsor a lot of like coding challenges and hackings in order to create a better user experience.

640
01:00:17,222 --> 01:00:23,323
what are the things that you're seeing in the lightning community right now as far as growth,

641
01:00:23,323 --> 01:00:32,823
as far as usage, as far as like products and use cases that are advancing the adoption and use of

642
01:00:32,823 --> 01:00:37,823
Bitcoin as money? Because that's where, that's where, by the way, you and Adam are perfectly

643
01:00:37,823 --> 01:00:43,942
aligned because you both believe that Bitcoin fails if we don't use it as money. Spend your

644
01:00:43,942 --> 01:00:51,782
Bitcoin. You need to do that in order to get it adopted as a means of exchange, because if it's

645
01:00:51,782 --> 01:00:57,502
not adopted as a means of exchange, then people will just hoard it like gold. And if people just

646
01:00:57,502 --> 01:01:02,162
hoard it like gold, then we'll always be pricing things in the thing that we use as a medium of

647
01:01:02,162 --> 01:01:06,802
exchange, and it will never become a unit of account. It will never be the thing we price

648
01:01:06,802 --> 01:01:13,142
stuff in. So yeah, I think kudos. Obviously, great minds think alike. I think you and Adam would have

649
01:01:13,142 --> 01:01:18,063
wonderful conversation but with regard to lightning and breeze and what you're seeing

650
01:01:18,063 --> 01:01:22,102
what are the things that you're excited about what are the things where you're seeing growth

651
01:01:22,102 --> 01:01:29,002
and advancement um because i know you're a cheery optimistic guy who's always smiling and uh i want

652
01:01:29,002 --> 01:01:35,002
to put it to you to share that uh share that joy and that optimism with uh with everybody uh okay

653
01:01:35,002 --> 01:01:42,563
so uh all the things that you commented i'll try to integrate them in my response like

654
01:01:42,563 --> 01:01:52,362
in terms of selling out i don't think it's selling out like because if you're continuing

655
01:01:52,362 --> 01:02:00,063
to pursue your self-actualization that means you didn't sell out you find found a way to get there

656
01:02:00,063 --> 01:02:07,842
because just like the hierarchy of muzzle the needs like self-actualization is like on the top

657
01:02:07,842 --> 01:02:15,102
Like you need to, like, if you're starving, you're not in the self-actualizing mood, let's say like that.

658
01:02:15,202 --> 01:02:17,302
So you need to take care of the basic needs.

659
01:02:17,563 --> 01:02:20,742
And money is a representation that, oh, I have the freedom.

660
01:02:21,043 --> 01:02:26,722
And this is one of the first things that hit me when I understood Bitcoin.

661
01:02:28,023 --> 01:02:35,023
That for the first time ever, you can write a list where you can say, I want this car.

662
01:02:35,023 --> 01:02:40,682
I want this house. I want to afford this lifestyle. I want this, whatever.

663
01:02:40,982 --> 01:02:45,482
You write them all down. Right next to them, you write the prices in fiat.

664
01:02:46,023 --> 01:02:50,543
Right next to them, that other column, you write the prices in Bitcoin terms.

665
01:02:51,082 --> 01:02:57,602
And now in fiat, you will see that those things are getting further away from you.

666
01:02:57,942 --> 01:03:02,242
But in the Bitcoin system, they are coming closer to you.

667
01:03:02,242 --> 01:03:04,142
So you can actually achieve that.

668
01:03:04,142 --> 01:03:06,602
Like you don't need to manage all the problems.

669
01:03:06,982 --> 01:03:08,523
So that is where you start.

670
01:03:08,762 --> 01:03:11,823
And you receiving money is fundamental.

671
01:03:12,323 --> 01:03:14,602
And hoarding is important.

672
01:03:14,942 --> 01:03:18,442
But I want to slightly change also.

673
01:03:18,642 --> 01:03:21,023
I don't want you to just spend your Bitcoin.

674
01:03:21,342 --> 01:03:24,582
I want you to use it in any shape or form.

675
01:03:24,722 --> 01:03:27,782
Spending is just one use case that people hate doing.

676
01:03:27,782 --> 01:03:30,762
and admittedly

677
01:03:30,762 --> 01:03:34,023
like I had a little bit of a problem

678
01:03:34,023 --> 01:03:35,742
when first time when I paid

679
01:03:35,742 --> 01:03:38,543
and like the propaganda

680
01:03:38,543 --> 01:03:40,323
or hold on only till you die

681
01:03:40,323 --> 01:03:42,242
or whatever like no

682
01:03:42,242 --> 01:03:45,662
but when you actually use it

683
01:03:45,662 --> 01:03:46,742
and you receive

684
01:03:46,742 --> 01:03:48,102
and not only receive

685
01:03:48,102 --> 01:03:50,842
but I connect a Bitcoiner

686
01:03:50,842 --> 01:03:51,902
with somebody else

687
01:03:51,902 --> 01:03:53,242
that can pay him in Bitcoin

688
01:03:53,242 --> 01:03:54,662
even if I don't receive

689
01:03:54,662 --> 01:03:56,523
I improve the whole network

690
01:03:56,523 --> 01:04:04,282
And that is beneficial for me because they will offer those services to me that I don't need to get in fiat and everything else.

691
01:04:04,382 --> 01:04:06,162
So everything is connected.

692
01:04:06,382 --> 01:04:08,023
And that's what I want to emphasize.

693
01:04:08,282 --> 01:04:12,202
And everybody that says, oh, they want you to spend your Bitcoin on them or whatever.

694
01:04:12,382 --> 01:04:16,262
No, I want you to use it in any share platform, not just spend it.

695
01:04:16,543 --> 01:04:25,862
I want you to hoard and I want you to hoard so you accumulate enough that you self-actualize and you take care of all your basic needs.

696
01:04:25,862 --> 01:04:34,323
I have a list for my life and I know that this year it was less Bitcoin than two years ago.

697
01:04:34,402 --> 01:04:42,063
Like, even though this year we are a down year and what we talked last time, oh, institutions are coming and everybody was excited.

698
01:04:42,382 --> 01:04:43,543
Oh, Bitcoin will pump.

699
01:04:43,762 --> 01:04:45,862
Like, no, it won't.

700
01:04:46,242 --> 01:04:49,182
Like, they will try to manipulate it as much as they can.

701
01:04:49,282 --> 01:04:50,242
So they capture it.

702
01:04:50,242 --> 01:04:54,702
We are trying to get into the capture, try, let's say.

703
01:04:55,862 --> 01:05:07,762
And we'll see. And going into the lighting, what's happening there, it's still the technology is improving a lot, I would say.

704
01:05:07,762 --> 01:05:23,442
And the thing that is one of the big things that happened, two actually big things that happened is Tether now can be transmitted in lightning.

705
01:05:23,442 --> 01:05:27,482
That was not possible like previous years.

706
01:05:28,122 --> 01:05:34,302
And because of this, obviously, all the other cryptos, the dominant use case is the dollar.

707
01:05:34,722 --> 01:05:42,002
Whether it's USDC or USDT is very attractive in all the other shitcoin chains.

708
01:05:42,002 --> 01:05:51,742
And now the swap providers can use Lightning to transfer USDT between chains.

709
01:05:52,002 --> 01:05:58,002
And that requires Bitcoin fees and that will give that value.

710
01:05:58,502 --> 01:06:00,502
Just like you said, are we selling out?

711
01:06:01,063 --> 01:06:03,402
That's kind of this mechanism that's happening.

712
01:06:03,563 --> 01:06:09,862
And a lot of swap providers are having this instant swap because they didn't have that about Bitcoin.

713
01:06:09,862 --> 01:06:14,762
They said, oh, Bitcoin was slow, whatever, and the technology didn't have that option.

714
01:06:14,842 --> 01:06:23,422
But now they have that option where somebody wants to swap Bitcoin and they swap Bitcoin for USDT that's on another chain.

715
01:06:23,622 --> 01:06:24,642
Now they can do that.

716
01:06:25,402 --> 01:06:38,482
And a person that can't stomach the volatility or they're just in the situation that they can't even save because they're in a tyrannical regime or whatever their situation is.

717
01:06:38,482 --> 01:06:46,622
Now they are integrated into our network where their impact will be almost nothing.

718
01:06:46,823 --> 01:06:55,582
Not only because they will use USDT, but to swap and everything is such tiny sats.

719
01:06:56,282 --> 01:07:03,682
But now they are in our neighborhood and they'll be part of our network and that network is increasing.

720
01:07:04,102 --> 01:07:05,523
So that is the thing that happened.

721
01:07:05,523 --> 01:07:13,822
the other huge thing that happened is 4 million merchants that are using the jack dorsey solution

722
01:07:13,822 --> 01:07:21,502
again like you said the pos terminal in mana like that's a user experience even though breeze was

723
01:07:21,502 --> 01:07:29,742
the first ever that integrated pos system in their wallet because technically uh that's exactly what

724
01:07:29,742 --> 01:07:36,002
we are talking about. Now, technically, you can receive the stats, what you said about cheese or

725
01:07:36,002 --> 01:07:43,523
whatever, but it requires work on the individual to be in the wallet experience. But if you create

726
01:07:43,523 --> 01:07:48,942
the application that abstracts away all those technicalities and creates the user experience

727
01:07:48,942 --> 01:07:55,962
for selling milk, cheese, or eggs, or whatever, and you don't need to think about it, but the

728
01:07:55,962 --> 01:08:03,302
application thinks about it and you just receive in one click send or receive that's the user

729
01:08:03,302 --> 01:08:09,082
experience that's for that use case the other thing that we mentioned was about podcasting

730
01:08:09,082 --> 01:08:14,402
somebody wants to zap the podcaster that's coming more and more into the nostril

731
01:08:14,402 --> 01:08:25,802
nostril ecosystem but what else like think about where when you take a card where can you use it

732
01:08:25,962 --> 01:08:33,862
Almost everywhere, whether like you can go into the shop, you can go this, you can go that, like everything that money can touch.

733
01:08:34,643 --> 01:08:36,462
How can Bitcoin be there?

734
01:08:36,802 --> 01:08:38,802
Like how can Bitcoin facilitate this?

735
01:08:38,802 --> 01:08:49,163
Not only facilitate this, but as I said, whether it's a split payment, whether it's instant settlement on the other side of the world, like all of those need to be in it.

736
01:08:49,442 --> 01:08:53,442
But they don't only theoretically that it's possible.

737
01:08:53,442 --> 01:09:04,102
but oh here install this application but now memorize this private key this public key your

738
01:09:04,102 --> 01:09:10,242
seed phrase not only that but when i send you you need to wait 10 minutes or whatever all those are

739
01:09:10,242 --> 01:09:16,862
a lot of frictions for somebody that just wants to have a solution because in our local bitcoin

740
01:09:16,862 --> 01:09:19,262
club, we had a

741
01:09:19,262 --> 01:09:21,223
use case where somebody

742
01:09:21,223 --> 01:09:23,242
showed up with a bag full of

743
01:09:23,242 --> 01:09:25,362
money and they said, they told

744
01:09:25,362 --> 01:09:26,262
us that

745
01:09:26,262 --> 01:09:29,163
Bitcoin is the only thing that we can send

746
01:09:29,163 --> 01:09:30,922
in Russia. I want to send this money

747
01:09:30,922 --> 01:09:33,242
in Russia and you can show us.

748
01:09:33,602 --> 01:09:35,262
Like, what is

749
01:09:35,262 --> 01:09:36,882
the use case that you,

750
01:09:37,202 --> 01:09:39,202
this is the use case. What is the user

751
01:09:39,202 --> 01:09:41,322
experience that you can create to serve

752
01:09:41,322 --> 01:09:43,362
this use case if there's a market for it?

753
01:09:43,442 --> 01:09:44,842
That's what I'm talking about.

754
01:09:44,842 --> 01:09:47,782
And I completely agree with Mana.

755
01:09:48,042 --> 01:09:53,322
What I disagree is that they either have to be the Swiss Army Knives,

756
01:09:53,542 --> 01:09:57,202
that they need to create themselves those user experiences,

757
01:09:57,563 --> 01:10:02,723
and we were on that path, Breeze itself, just to test different use cases.

758
01:10:02,902 --> 01:10:08,542
But that can't scale because the Mana team is limited.

759
01:10:08,882 --> 01:10:13,342
So you're basically limiting what they can develop.

760
01:10:13,342 --> 01:10:23,462
They can't work on 500 different implementations, 500 different use cases in 500 or not, let's say in 50 countries.

761
01:10:23,982 --> 01:10:25,322
Like that's a struggle.

762
01:10:25,842 --> 01:10:33,942
But what we offer is that we give you that code and you create completely the user experience.

763
01:10:33,942 --> 01:10:36,402
and maybe next time we can showcase it.

764
01:10:36,742 --> 01:10:38,623
Like you create the user experience

765
01:10:38,623 --> 01:10:41,702
and you just plug that code when you send send,

766
01:10:42,202 --> 01:10:43,583
when you press send,

767
01:10:44,123 --> 01:10:48,502
everything is taken care of by our stuff,

768
01:10:48,762 --> 01:10:52,143
like with our SDK or something.

769
01:10:52,282 --> 01:10:53,882
So that is what I'm talking about.

770
01:10:53,882 --> 01:10:57,902
And it's still just because we're abstracting away

771
01:10:57,902 --> 01:11:02,962
the technical things that lightning experts can do

772
01:11:02,962 --> 01:11:04,702
and you don't have to think about it,

773
01:11:05,342 --> 01:11:08,242
that is putting the burden that the user experience.

774
01:11:08,402 --> 01:11:10,442
Now you have the freedom to make it great.

775
01:11:11,063 --> 01:11:14,962
But because the last piece that I'll add is

776
01:11:14,962 --> 01:11:18,102
now I'm experimenting with Vibe coding.

777
01:11:18,782 --> 01:11:21,422
Now I can demonstrate everything

778
01:11:21,422 --> 01:11:23,262
and I can go into a high school

779
01:11:23,262 --> 01:11:25,962
and not only talk about Bitcoin and what it is,

780
01:11:26,242 --> 01:11:27,342
but I can showcase.

781
01:11:27,962 --> 01:11:29,523
You enter these parameters.

782
01:11:29,683 --> 01:11:32,223
You don't need to be even that big of a developer,

783
01:11:32,223 --> 01:11:38,422
But you can create a website, you can create an application, you can create anything and you can put money in it.

784
01:11:39,822 --> 01:11:47,922
The fiat system doesn't want you to have a bank account until 18, but you're 14 and Bitcoin doesn't care.

785
01:11:48,223 --> 01:11:49,382
So go do anything.

786
01:11:49,602 --> 01:11:51,663
And that is my mission for this year.

787
01:11:51,663 --> 01:12:00,183
I would say that I'll go around high schools and universities that I can showcase what people can do.

788
01:12:00,183 --> 01:12:18,163
And especially people that don't have a bank account, I would love it that they don't even touch and create user experiences that we can't even think about because the kids these days are so digitally native that I'm one of the generations that's kind of in between.

789
01:12:18,163 --> 01:12:22,663
I know the world before, and I'm kind of okay.

790
01:12:23,183 --> 01:12:31,882
But the generations before me, my father, my mother, they were bad with computers.

791
01:12:32,442 --> 01:12:36,742
And the generations after me, they can't put it down.

792
01:12:37,123 --> 01:12:39,822
They live in the cyberspace.

793
01:12:40,862 --> 01:12:42,462
So that's the good news.

794
01:12:42,462 --> 01:12:50,262
So, Ivan, I'm curious, is there a dystopian future that is possible in relation to lightning?

795
01:12:50,822 --> 01:12:53,482
So, Lucas and I just finished reading The Mandibles.

796
01:12:54,143 --> 01:13:00,862
And as part of that future, the government forces people, spoiler alert, I guess, but in the book.

797
01:13:01,143 --> 01:13:03,123
But so, not even talking about the book.

798
01:13:03,123 --> 01:13:08,862
say that people were forced to have a chip implanted as a sort of central bank digital

799
01:13:08,862 --> 01:13:12,982
currency monitoring system such that it's like a social credit.

800
01:13:13,202 --> 01:13:17,942
All of everything you pay for instantly deducts a tax for the state.

801
01:13:18,183 --> 01:13:24,623
Is there a dystopian future where lightning is the same way, where the government legislates

802
01:13:24,623 --> 01:13:31,942
that all split payments need to include a 10% split payment to the government and then

803
01:13:31,942 --> 01:13:39,102
governments lean on split payment providers, facilitators to force them to do that? Do you

804
01:13:39,102 --> 01:13:42,782
see any possibility for a dystopian outcome in split payments?

805
01:13:44,782 --> 01:13:55,542
I see definitely a try to do that. And not even a try, but they'll force as hard as they can

806
01:13:55,542 --> 01:13:56,362
to do that

807
01:13:56,362 --> 01:13:58,002
and

808
01:13:58,002 --> 01:14:01,442
the problem is that

809
01:14:01,442 --> 01:14:05,123
not even on Lightning

810
01:14:05,123 --> 01:14:07,502
because Lightning has pretty good

811
01:14:07,502 --> 01:14:09,482
privacy when you send

812
01:14:09,482 --> 01:14:11,163
a payment but when you receive

813
01:14:11,163 --> 01:14:13,163
you're kind of exposed where it is

814
01:14:13,163 --> 01:14:15,802
but on other solutions

815
01:14:15,802 --> 01:14:17,602
you have full privacy

816
01:14:17,602 --> 01:14:18,482
and

817
01:14:18,482 --> 01:14:20,702
to switch around

818
01:14:20,702 --> 01:14:23,563
let's say that they

819
01:14:23,563 --> 01:14:25,143
force you just like

820
01:14:25,143 --> 01:14:34,023
in, I think in Nigeria, they forced them to use their digital Naira, their CBDC.

821
01:14:34,023 --> 01:14:36,262
E-Naira, I think.

822
01:14:36,482 --> 01:14:36,683
Yeah.

823
01:14:37,362 --> 01:14:43,862
And still, even though they restricted the ATMs, they did all sorts of stuff, people

824
01:14:43,862 --> 01:14:45,442
didn't want to use it.

825
01:14:45,962 --> 01:14:54,982
So, but even if we're sleepwalking into it, as I said, because this is a decentralized

826
01:14:54,982 --> 01:15:06,822
force, let's say everybody is taxed automatically and all of us, but your purchasing power increases

827
01:15:06,822 --> 01:15:15,482
and because it increases and it is yours, that means you will find other ways and other

828
01:15:15,482 --> 01:15:16,442
things to do.

829
01:15:16,842 --> 01:15:19,422
That is, again, a decentralizing force.

830
01:15:19,762 --> 01:15:21,762
You cannot completely stop it.

831
01:15:21,762 --> 01:15:26,242
there might be a volatility in actions because we're still so small.

832
01:15:26,942 --> 01:15:34,502
But do you think all those taxes will work in all 160 countries?

833
01:15:34,723 --> 01:15:35,922
Or I don't know how many.

834
01:15:36,063 --> 01:15:37,982
There are like 300 countries in the world.

835
01:15:39,342 --> 01:15:40,662
I highly doubt it.

836
01:15:40,662 --> 01:15:41,223
Yeah.

837
01:15:41,702 --> 01:15:42,223
Yeah.

838
01:15:42,583 --> 01:15:50,422
So, and just like Bitcoin, what it needs to stop it,

839
01:15:50,422 --> 01:15:56,282
Like stop the internet in the whole world, not only now, but forever.

840
01:15:56,942 --> 01:15:59,882
That's what you actually need to do with the split payment.

841
01:16:00,242 --> 01:16:11,042
You might be somewhat successful, just like now the institutions are coming and they are gaining traction on capturing the ownership of Bitcoin.

842
01:16:11,042 --> 01:16:16,002
But they did nothing about owning the network.

843
01:16:16,402 --> 01:16:22,523
And if they actually tried to own the network, it will be violent.

844
01:16:25,183 --> 01:16:27,102
I wouldn't say violent again.

845
01:16:27,263 --> 01:16:33,482
Let's not make the mistake, Jason, but it will be a pushback against all of it.

846
01:16:34,362 --> 01:16:38,442
And you're just prolonging the inevitable in my point of view.

847
01:16:38,442 --> 01:16:45,502
The only thing that's going for them for now is people just don't understand it and the UX is still bad.

848
01:16:46,202 --> 01:16:47,962
So we don't have those solutions.

849
01:16:48,322 --> 01:16:50,302
So we just need to build.

850
01:16:50,702 --> 01:16:52,143
There's no way around it.

851
01:16:52,502 --> 01:16:57,602
It will require proof of work, not just hodling.

852
01:16:57,902 --> 01:17:07,702
Hodling is the basic foundation that you step on, but then build because you will outpace everybody else if you do.

853
01:17:08,442 --> 01:17:26,442
Yeah. When I go on X these days, I continue to see rumblings of tax revolt. This idea of people voluntarily refusing to pay taxes is starting to gain some ground in the general consciousness.

854
01:17:26,442 --> 01:17:53,683
And whether or not there's going to be success there or failure or what it leads to, the mere fact that it is becoming something that people are saying out loud is, you know, Jason Lowry refers to Bitcoin as digital 1776 as, you know, declaring independence from the oppressive tax regime.

855
01:17:53,683 --> 01:18:01,502
And if we, you know, if we remember that was over like a 2% tax or three or something like that.

856
01:18:01,802 --> 01:18:02,402
Yeah.

857
01:18:03,123 --> 01:18:13,643
You know, and here in the United States where we didn't have income tax until we had the current iteration of the central bank in 1913.

858
01:18:13,643 --> 01:18:27,942
So, you know, for a very long time, this country, it started from nothing and then grew to be something very powerful in the absence of and quite possibly as a result of not having those taxes.

859
01:18:27,942 --> 01:18:33,102
It certainly was created because of a revolt against tax.

860
01:18:34,382 --> 01:18:43,263
And so it's interesting because it gives us kind of a different perspective on what that means.

861
01:18:43,643 --> 01:18:56,842
What does it mean to view taxes as not something native to life, as something that, as Adam Smecha says, you know, believes that taxes are unconstitutional?

862
01:18:56,842 --> 01:18:59,502
I think that there's a case to be made for that.

863
01:19:01,382 --> 01:19:02,802
What does that mean?

864
01:19:03,502 --> 01:19:13,162
And you frame it in terms – you use the analogy of blood going through blood vessels in your essay.

865
01:19:13,162 --> 01:19:19,183
and you talk about all this unnecessary friction as like plaque in those blood vessels and

866
01:19:19,183 --> 01:19:28,202
slowing down, adding friction, slowing down and causing problems. If I work at your restaurant,

867
01:19:28,662 --> 01:19:37,102
then that plaque is that the customer pays and their payment goes first to the point of service

868
01:19:37,102 --> 01:19:42,183
and then to that bank and then to a clearing bank and then to my bank.

869
01:19:43,023 --> 01:19:44,742
And then it waits 30 days.

870
01:19:45,342 --> 01:19:50,542
Then it waits and then you pay me and, you know, those taxes are taken out.

871
01:19:50,542 --> 01:19:55,302
And that delay, you talk about how that delay is actually a huge cost.

872
01:19:57,183 --> 01:20:06,702
And so if we're able to have a technology, to build a technology that removes that plaque,

873
01:20:07,102 --> 01:20:15,263
where the customer pays their bill and I instantly get paid and you instantly get paid, everyone instantly gets paid,

874
01:20:15,962 --> 01:20:22,942
then we've removed that delay, we've removed that plaque, we've removed that, you know,

875
01:20:23,042 --> 01:20:29,083
what happens when you build up plaque is that the pressure increases until something bursts and something breaks.

876
01:20:31,023 --> 01:20:35,382
And looking at the Lightning Network, I looked it up while you were talking.

877
01:20:35,382 --> 01:20:48,742
So last year, the capacity of the Lightning Network in terms of how much Bitcoin is actually allocated to Lightning channels, it grew a little bit by like, say, 7%.

878
01:20:48,742 --> 01:20:52,922
So the pipe, that blood vessel, got a little bit bigger.

879
01:20:52,922 --> 01:21:05,902
However, the volume, the amount of transactions and the total amount of value transacted through, that grew by about 300%.

880
01:21:05,902 --> 01:21:23,282
So we've got this beautiful, clean, sleek blood vessel without any plaque, and we're able to continually increase the amount of blood that we're pumping through it and add vitality to the economy, add vitality to the system.

881
01:21:23,282 --> 01:21:32,502
in a way that I think it just, when you look at it compared to the old system,

882
01:21:32,723 --> 01:21:37,123
it's like looking at two patients and one of them is sickly and failing

883
01:21:37,123 --> 01:21:39,422
and the other one is vibrant and alive.

884
01:21:40,563 --> 01:21:50,282
And at a certain point, you have to make the decision of how long am I going to continue to

885
01:21:50,282 --> 01:21:59,063
throw good money after bad and keep this patient on life support when I could be feeding and

886
01:21:59,063 --> 01:22:05,542
housing and helping to grow this other one. So yeah, I find the Lightning Network really

887
01:22:05,542 --> 01:22:13,063
fascinating because it allows us to have that, all the things that we talk about with Bitcoin

888
01:22:13,063 --> 01:22:17,042
that people bring up is, oh, this could be a failure point. Like it's not really anonymous

889
01:22:17,042 --> 01:22:20,723
And it's not really fast and it's not really easy.

890
01:22:21,683 --> 01:22:23,922
And lightning is all of those things.

891
01:22:23,922 --> 01:22:24,563
It's fast.

892
01:22:24,683 --> 01:22:26,162
It's basically anonymous.

893
01:22:26,422 --> 01:22:27,302
It's easy.

894
01:22:28,482 --> 01:22:37,602
Yeah, it allows us to really, I guess, kind of blossom, I guess, our digital identity.

895
01:22:38,462 --> 01:22:41,623
So, yeah, there's just kind of a comment on that.

896
01:22:42,382 --> 01:22:43,702
I didn't have a question.

897
01:22:43,982 --> 01:22:45,862
I just started talking and then I stopped talking.

898
01:22:45,862 --> 01:22:47,982
My question, what do you think about what Lucas just said?

899
01:22:48,782 --> 01:22:49,662
There you go.

900
01:22:49,882 --> 01:22:52,842
Grant, way to dive in there and save us.

901
01:22:53,462 --> 01:22:54,242
Question mark.

902
01:22:54,242 --> 01:22:54,842
This is why I've got you.

903
01:22:54,842 --> 01:22:58,862
You only just end with an upward inflection, and that is what I have to say?

904
01:23:00,862 --> 01:23:01,382
Yeah.

905
01:23:02,422 --> 01:23:09,242
Like, for me, this is exactly, actually with my soulmate,

906
01:23:09,242 --> 01:23:11,083
soulmate we talked about

907
01:23:11,083 --> 01:23:13,023
how much decay

908
01:23:13,023 --> 01:23:14,683
the fiat system

909
01:23:14,683 --> 01:23:17,242
gave us to our generation

910
01:23:17,242 --> 01:23:19,442
in our

911
01:23:19,442 --> 01:23:20,882
parents and

912
01:23:20,882 --> 01:23:22,302
the good thing

913
01:23:22,302 --> 01:23:25,102
is that we are

914
01:23:25,102 --> 01:23:27,742
kind of the third generation

915
01:23:27,742 --> 01:23:29,183
of

916
01:23:29,183 --> 01:23:30,822
fiat

917
01:23:30,822 --> 01:23:33,362
working on us

918
01:23:33,362 --> 01:23:34,563
and

919
01:23:34,563 --> 01:23:36,862
they

920
01:23:36,862 --> 01:23:38,802
screw up our

921
01:23:38,802 --> 01:23:46,662
life in so many ways like the food that we eat the amount of time that we spend in nature

922
01:23:46,662 --> 01:23:55,683
like the beauty that we see the uh networks that we share like uh yep right now we are connected

923
01:23:55,683 --> 01:24:03,202
and it's very valuable for me because you're on the other side of the world but uh the human touch

924
01:24:03,202 --> 01:24:07,362
when you touch somebody for, I think, more than three seconds or something,

925
01:24:07,683 --> 01:24:10,502
the dopamine for bonding, I think.

926
01:24:11,482 --> 01:24:12,042
Oxytocin.

927
01:24:12,322 --> 01:24:13,102
Oxytocin, yeah.

928
01:24:13,102 --> 01:24:17,482
That one is released and all sorts of things that are kind of, again,

929
01:24:17,982 --> 01:24:23,242
slightly but surely, all of those are, let's say, the medical system,

930
01:24:23,542 --> 01:24:28,542
the food system, everything receives 2% inflation in quality.

931
01:24:28,542 --> 01:24:38,563
and we said okay we started with the list what i told about bitcoin system will help us to achieve

932
01:24:38,563 --> 01:24:46,563
it faster we are not there yet but this is what we are aiming for yes we are going to sell out

933
01:24:46,563 --> 01:24:52,322
here and there for something but the good thing is that you don't need to sell out a lot like

934
01:24:52,322 --> 01:24:57,183
if you actually do the proof of work you can actually work for a bitcoin company you can

935
01:24:57,183 --> 01:25:00,662
actually make a Bitcoin project that kind of works and stuff like that.

936
01:25:00,782 --> 01:25:05,422
So just because you're having a fear job, that doesn't mean that you should not even

937
01:25:05,422 --> 01:25:05,982
try.

938
01:25:06,982 --> 01:25:15,042
And when you do that, we set out this thing for us as parents now is that we will not

939
01:25:15,042 --> 01:25:16,683
fix everything for our kids.

940
01:25:17,042 --> 01:25:22,662
But what we damn well do is that we reverse the fucking trends.

941
01:25:22,862 --> 01:25:25,882
Like we will use the better money.

942
01:25:25,882 --> 01:25:29,302
We will search out which is the better food.

943
01:25:29,623 --> 01:25:35,302
We will search out which is the better technology that doesn't screw with your circadian rhythm and everything.

944
01:25:35,602 --> 01:25:39,862
And fortunately, there is one company, a very big fan of them.

945
01:25:40,882 --> 01:25:42,602
And all sorts of things.

946
01:25:42,602 --> 01:25:52,002
And for example, I found out that the salt that we eat is horrible.

947
01:25:52,002 --> 01:25:54,402
Like almost everything is salt.

948
01:25:54,422 --> 01:25:55,342
Oh, salt.

949
01:25:55,643 --> 01:25:56,023
Yes.

950
01:25:56,702 --> 01:25:58,143
It's not actually salt.

951
01:25:58,542 --> 01:26:00,623
They're giving you like something crappy.

952
01:26:01,402 --> 01:26:09,583
And when you go and do that research and stuff like that, it kind of requires time to do it and to taste it out.

953
01:26:09,683 --> 01:26:10,662
But now we found it.

954
01:26:10,763 --> 01:26:13,962
And now this is the thing that we set out.

955
01:26:14,123 --> 01:26:15,862
And then you go about milk.

956
01:26:15,862 --> 01:26:27,123
I don't know if you know, but yogurt specifically is something that's probably invented in Bulgaria because the molecule that you call is called Bulgarikos.

957
01:26:27,602 --> 01:26:32,643
So the real truest yogurt in the world is made in my country.

958
01:26:33,382 --> 01:26:36,742
So and when people say Greek yogurt, there is no Greek yogurt.

959
01:26:36,902 --> 01:26:38,662
They're just branding field.

960
01:26:38,662 --> 01:26:50,223
But my point is, if we take any of the yogurts that are sold in the supermarket and we try to make our own, the process doesn't work.

961
01:26:50,902 --> 01:26:57,763
Like, there is only one brand that where you take the yogurt and you create your own.

962
01:26:58,183 --> 01:26:59,662
That means that that's real yogurt.

963
01:27:00,563 --> 01:27:00,662
And all...

964
01:27:01,502 --> 01:27:04,382
Where you get like the bacteria or the culture or whatever?

965
01:27:04,662 --> 01:27:05,063
Is that what you're saying?

966
01:27:05,063 --> 01:27:05,322
Yes, yes.

967
01:27:05,322 --> 01:27:05,523
Okay.

968
01:27:05,523 --> 01:27:14,542
Like the process is you take some raw milk and you put a spoon of yogurt from one and the bacteria multiplies.

969
01:27:14,683 --> 01:27:19,322
You need to place it in a hot place for I don't know how much time.

970
01:27:19,643 --> 01:27:22,162
But my sister is kind of cooking here and there.

971
01:27:22,242 --> 01:27:25,542
And she said, I tried all sorts of brands and none of them worked.

972
01:27:25,683 --> 01:27:26,162
I put it.

973
01:27:26,282 --> 01:27:27,962
That means that there is no bacteria.

974
01:27:28,042 --> 01:27:29,002
There is no milk.

975
01:27:29,342 --> 01:27:31,402
There is no yogurt in the actual yogurt.

976
01:27:31,402 --> 01:27:34,662
And again, this is a symptom of fiat.

977
01:27:34,662 --> 01:27:50,383
And we have experienced all of that But my point is that this is the one thing that we will damn well do for our generation that we stop the negative trend about all those things for us

978
01:27:50,704 --> 01:27:55,023
We want our kids to be better and to actually achieve it.

979
01:27:55,184 --> 01:28:00,724
And we want our grandkids to be better than our kids and so on and so on.

980
01:28:00,784 --> 01:28:02,023
This is the mission that we do.

981
01:28:02,023 --> 01:28:18,704
And going back, I am not against hodling. Hodling is the one thing that you can step on and you do all of that. But just because you're hodling Bitcoin, that will not solve your health problems.

982
01:28:18,704 --> 01:28:35,583
That will not solve you working for a bank in fiat and you're subsidizing and you're waiting for that Bitcoin to become a million so you can quit and then figure out that you can do anything in Bitcoin because you didn't put any effort there.

983
01:28:35,583 --> 01:28:57,583
That is what I'm trying to say. And that's my imploring to all the Bitcoiners out there. Like, this is what we need to do, whatever it is, even if it is just for your kids, selfishly, and you don't help any other Bitcoiner, make the other generations after us better.

984
01:28:57,583 --> 01:29:03,704
And now you have the tool that they can confiscate and actually achieve it.

985
01:29:03,863 --> 01:29:08,923
Because even if you try in fiat, you have to play fiat games.

986
01:29:09,123 --> 01:29:12,204
You have to figure out how to get closer to the printer.

987
01:29:12,443 --> 01:29:18,744
You have to figure out how to play the YouTube, Facebook or whatever algorithm to have an advantage.

988
01:29:18,963 --> 01:29:20,343
And all those are fiat games.

989
01:29:20,704 --> 01:29:22,264
Now you can align.

990
01:29:22,523 --> 01:29:25,244
You actually provide real valuable work.

991
01:29:25,244 --> 01:29:33,724
You find out what is real valuable services and products and you use those with the best money and you rebuild upon them.

992
01:29:34,224 --> 01:29:41,083
Just because I talked kind of negatively about Nostra, that doesn't mean that I'm not a believer.

993
01:29:41,463 --> 01:29:45,824
I really believe in it and that's why I'm using it because I want to subsidize it.

994
01:29:45,903 --> 01:29:52,764
Because as I said, even if it fails, that is the path that we should fail in.

995
01:29:52,764 --> 01:30:01,264
like it should not be quit like uh so yeah those are kind of the comments about plaque and everything

996
01:30:01,264 --> 01:30:08,543
that's on my societal level that like proof of work like that's the only way but use the right

997
01:30:08,543 --> 01:30:16,064
tools and just because you're hodling uh and you have more than your neighbor and you want to have

998
01:30:16,064 --> 01:30:23,863
even more so like why like i don't understand that why the hell are you just hodeling and you

999
01:30:23,863 --> 01:30:30,704
don't care about where you live do you think when everything crashes around you and people find out

1000
01:30:30,704 --> 01:30:34,843
that you have a lot of bitcoin they are not going to come with the guillotine first for you

1001
01:30:34,843 --> 01:30:42,623
if you didn't give any value but you hoard it like i'm sorry but this is the fundamental thing

1002
01:30:42,623 --> 01:30:44,583
that I disagree with Michael Saylor.

1003
01:30:45,123 --> 01:30:47,863
And the thing that I really disagree

1004
01:30:47,863 --> 01:30:50,604
is that he's disincentivizing

1005
01:30:50,604 --> 01:30:51,564
to build on Bitcoin.

1006
01:30:52,064 --> 01:30:53,164
Like, I'm sorry,

1007
01:30:53,564 --> 01:30:55,883
but you're not on my team.

1008
01:30:56,264 --> 01:30:57,784
That is what you're saying.

1009
01:30:57,923 --> 01:30:58,963
Even though you're helping

1010
01:30:58,963 --> 01:31:00,664
my purchasing power here and there.

1011
01:31:01,824 --> 01:31:03,284
Yeah, you bring up a lot of things

1012
01:31:03,284 --> 01:31:04,304
that I want to comment on there

1013
01:31:04,304 --> 01:31:06,224
because, so first off,

1014
01:31:06,503 --> 01:31:08,923
I'm going through this process myself,

1015
01:31:08,943 --> 01:31:10,224
like reading Dopamine Nation.

1016
01:31:10,224 --> 01:31:18,583
And, you know, one of the things that Anna Lemke tells us is that pain and pleasure are processed in the same area of the brain.

1017
01:31:18,704 --> 01:31:19,644
They're overlapping.

1018
01:31:19,644 --> 01:31:24,403
When you experience pleasure, the body wants to reach homeostasis.

1019
01:31:24,623 --> 01:31:26,324
And so it gives you pain.

1020
01:31:26,664 --> 01:31:29,983
And that pain is in like a craving.

1021
01:31:30,463 --> 01:31:36,983
So I eat the chocolate cake and I have a craving to eat more chocolate cake.

1022
01:31:37,123 --> 01:31:38,003
I want that.

1023
01:31:38,104 --> 01:31:39,003
It's giving me pain.

1024
01:31:39,003 --> 01:31:48,923
and you can basically break all of this down into two types of reward did i earn the reward

1025
01:31:48,923 --> 01:31:56,323
did i do proof of work or is it unearned reward and an earned reward is i did a difficult workout

1026
01:31:56,323 --> 01:32:02,823
and at the end i get this afterglow feeling i feel effervescent i'm i'm pumping with endorphins

1027
01:32:02,823 --> 01:32:09,323
because that is the body taking the pain of the workout and balancing it back by giving me pleasure.

1028
01:32:09,844 --> 01:32:16,083
So I have to seek out pain in order to be given pleasure by myself.

1029
01:32:16,083 --> 01:32:21,784
I can give myself pleasure, but I have to seek pain in order to get it.

1030
01:32:22,224 --> 01:32:28,564
On the flip side, if I seek pleasure, then if I get that pleasure from an external source,

1031
01:32:28,564 --> 01:32:43,423
I get that from a computer screen, from sugary food, from watching movies, from scrolling through TikTok, from avoiding being out in the cold or avoiding being out in the heat.

1032
01:32:43,423 --> 01:33:01,704
If I do that, then what I get in return, what I give myself is I give myself pain, is I end up giving myself more and more and more and more pain in order to balance out the pleasure because I give myself pain, so I seek more pleasure.

1033
01:33:01,823 --> 01:33:03,704
I give myself pain, so I seek more pleasure.

1034
01:33:03,844 --> 01:33:09,064
Whereas if you seek pain, then you get pleasure in return.

1035
01:33:09,064 --> 01:33:24,403
And the terrifying thing, or not terrifying, but just kind of like, it is somewhat overwhelming to sit and make a list of what are all the sources of cheap dopamine that are available to me on an everyday basis.

1036
01:33:24,844 --> 01:33:29,543
So caffeine, I get energy without having to work for it.

1037
01:33:30,104 --> 01:33:31,483
There's sleeping pills.

1038
01:33:31,644 --> 01:33:32,363
There's Adderall.

1039
01:33:32,704 --> 01:33:38,244
Adderall is 10 times more pleasurable than sex.

1040
01:33:39,064 --> 01:33:48,943
right? It's, it's, yeah, it's, uh, it's five times more pleasurable than cocaine in terms of the

1041
01:33:48,943 --> 01:33:54,443
amount of dopamine that it, that it sends your, your brain. And so you go down this list and

1042
01:33:54,443 --> 01:33:58,764
you're like, well, what are all the things that I do on an everyday basis? There's the bad food,

1043
01:33:58,883 --> 01:34:03,503
there's the sugary sodas, there's the caffeine, there's Adderall, there's alcohol, there's

1044
01:34:03,503 --> 01:34:13,863
marijuana. There's scrolling on TikTok. And you want to make a commitment to try and live a life

1045
01:34:13,863 --> 01:34:20,724
without those things in order to, if nothing else, just get to know yourself, just to return to

1046
01:34:20,724 --> 01:34:28,104
whatever baseline that you were born with. And it seems overwhelming because these things are so

1047
01:34:28,104 --> 01:34:36,684
pervasive within our life. Yeah, it's just incredibly overwhelming to think about trying

1048
01:34:36,684 --> 01:34:41,983
to extract yourself from that system, just like it's incredibly overwhelming to try and think

1049
01:34:41,983 --> 01:34:48,644
about leaving the fiat system that you were born into. But it turns out on the other side are great

1050
01:34:48,644 --> 01:34:54,604
rewards. And so if you can go through the pain of the adjustment, the pain of the letting go

1051
01:34:54,604 --> 01:35:01,844
and detox, basically, then there's great things on the other side.

1052
01:35:02,344 --> 01:35:05,423
You brought up this, and Grant, you and I haven't really,

1053
01:35:05,564 --> 01:35:07,684
I don't think we've ever really gotten into this,

1054
01:35:07,684 --> 01:35:11,043
but I am actually starting to be on the same side as Ivan

1055
01:35:11,043 --> 01:35:15,863
when it comes to the Bitcoin treasury company model.

1056
01:35:16,224 --> 01:35:17,543
I think it's very successful.

1057
01:35:17,724 --> 01:35:20,003
I think it's bringing a lot of people to Bitcoin.

1058
01:35:20,003 --> 01:35:26,704
And I don't really know about that it's keeping people from building on Bitcoin.

1059
01:35:26,704 --> 01:35:36,923
But what I do know is that at Bitcoin Mina in, I believe it was Abu Dhabi, Michael Saylor lays out the plan here.

1060
01:35:37,564 --> 01:35:45,523
And it's, hey, if you buy our product that pays you 11% and you're a giant bank, then you can effectively issue your own coin.

1061
01:35:45,523 --> 01:35:53,244
You can issue JP Morgan coin or whatever, and you can pay 8% on that and keep a couple for yourself.

1062
01:35:54,123 --> 01:35:56,923
And then we can kind of like privatize money.

1063
01:35:57,344 --> 01:36:08,724
And when I think about what that means realistically, to me, it's nothing more than a privatized version of a central bank digital currency.

1064
01:36:08,724 --> 01:36:38,423
And we saw with the social media companies, with Twitter and Facebook and Instagram and YouTube during COVID, we saw that the private companies weren't actually very private, that they were operating at the behest of the governments who had infiltrated them and given them orders, you know, deplatform these people, silence these words, censor this speech, censor this communication.

1065
01:36:38,423 --> 01:36:44,823
And that's very easily imagined as of the government.

1066
01:36:44,983 --> 01:36:55,043
We'll just go to J.P. Morgan and say, de-platform, de-bank this person, silence their ability to express themselves financially, censor their transactions.

1067
01:36:56,043 --> 01:36:57,863
So I actually do.

1068
01:36:59,184 --> 01:37:04,744
It makes me sad, but I actually I actually do kind of agree that I think we're going down a bad path.

1069
01:37:05,423 --> 01:37:11,204
At the very least, it's opening us up to some very negative possibilities.

1070
01:37:11,684 --> 01:37:16,083
So I don't know. Grant, what do you think about that? Ivan, throw in question mark?

1071
01:37:16,383 --> 01:37:20,564
No, the thing about Bitcoin, though, it always has the possibility of self-custody.

1072
01:37:20,564 --> 01:37:31,784
In a certain sense, I don't want to say this too strongly, but it's almost like there are no bad futures because there only is the expression of human nature and how it's going to interact with this technology.

1073
01:37:31,784 --> 01:37:45,064
And it always was going to be the case that finance was going to be involved and it was going to maybe in the in the form of a Trojan horse, bring Bitcoin deep with inside it and then reengineer its own DNA without knowing.

1074
01:37:45,064 --> 01:37:56,083
And that's one view of what's happening with what Saylor's doing, right, is how do we just rewrite current models of finance using Bitcoin, something like that.

1075
01:37:56,083 --> 01:38:03,304
But again, as long as Bitcoin always has the potential to be self-custodied, then you can always withdraw it from that model.

1076
01:38:03,744 --> 01:38:05,363
There always is a possibility.

1077
01:38:05,644 --> 01:38:07,564
So it's a decentralized protocol.

1078
01:38:07,764 --> 01:38:09,823
People participate as they will.

1079
01:38:10,784 --> 01:38:19,003
I don't see what he's doing as a net benefit or a net negative, maybe as almost an inevitability that this was going to happen.

1080
01:38:19,003 --> 01:38:24,304
But there's always also going to be Ivins out there who are going to build in a different way.

1081
01:38:24,304 --> 01:38:34,284
And that's always going to be, I think, an expression of what Bitcoin is, that it's going to be both finance and both independence and a bunch of different things we don't yet know.

1082
01:38:37,104 --> 01:38:48,543
For me, this is kind of fitting exactly what the fiat will try, because they couldn't stop the whole protocol.

1083
01:38:49,064 --> 01:38:51,023
So how will they capture?

1084
01:38:51,323 --> 01:38:53,644
They'll try to capture as many coins as they can.

1085
01:38:53,644 --> 01:38:57,804
So come, give me your money.

1086
01:38:58,003 --> 01:39:03,844
So I buy Bitcoins and I give you some other shitcoin on top.

1087
01:39:04,144 --> 01:39:08,704
Like, what's actually the difference between the shitcoin and what they're doing?

1088
01:39:09,023 --> 01:39:10,164
Some abstraction or something.

1089
01:39:10,724 --> 01:39:13,583
And they're promoting this?

1090
01:39:13,923 --> 01:39:21,604
Like, what the hell happened between now and 40 years ago when I was listening to Michael Saylor, the engineer,

1091
01:39:21,604 --> 01:39:23,883
like talking about civilizations

1092
01:39:23,883 --> 01:39:24,983
and everything else

1093
01:39:24,983 --> 01:39:27,003
like something in between changed

1094
01:39:27,003 --> 01:39:29,684
where he is now the biggest crypto proponent

1095
01:39:29,684 --> 01:39:32,804
like and everybody is cheering

1096
01:39:32,804 --> 01:39:34,823
oh you go buy more Bitcoin

1097
01:39:34,823 --> 01:39:38,204
and he's pushing some other tokens

1098
01:39:38,204 --> 01:39:39,564
like I hate this

1099
01:39:39,564 --> 01:39:40,684
like why?

1100
01:39:41,903 --> 01:39:44,804
so this is the kind of

1101
01:39:44,804 --> 01:39:48,224
thing that I disagree

1102
01:39:48,224 --> 01:39:51,204
and obviously

1103
01:39:51,204 --> 01:39:53,784
there's nothing that I can do to stop it.

1104
01:39:54,184 --> 01:39:55,564
Obviously, this was

1105
01:39:55,564 --> 01:39:57,623
going to happen.

1106
01:39:58,104 --> 01:39:59,903
But there

1107
01:39:59,903 --> 01:40:01,823
was somebody else that all

1108
01:40:01,823 --> 01:40:03,943
those scams are coming closer to

1109
01:40:03,943 --> 01:40:06,184
Bitcoin. They were creating

1110
01:40:06,184 --> 01:40:07,724
other shit

1111
01:40:07,724 --> 01:40:09,844
coin chains, but now they're on top of

1112
01:40:09,844 --> 01:40:11,644
Bitcoin. So I

1113
01:40:11,644 --> 01:40:13,244
have

1114
01:40:13,244 --> 01:40:15,903
a guess that we

1115
01:40:15,903 --> 01:40:18,003
will skip this cycle and

1116
01:40:18,003 --> 01:40:20,123
we are in an eight-year-old

1117
01:40:20,123 --> 01:40:22,323
eight years long cycle.

1118
01:40:23,923 --> 01:40:32,923
And because the next fiat something will create again more volatility in fiat

1119
01:40:32,923 --> 01:40:39,144
and Bitcoin will have that absorption and everything else,

1120
01:40:39,543 --> 01:40:42,204
it will create problems in that model.

1121
01:40:42,363 --> 01:40:45,123
But he's putting fiat infrastructure on top of Bitcoin.

1122
01:40:45,623 --> 01:40:49,403
That means that everything on top will crash at some point.

1123
01:40:49,403 --> 01:40:51,684
maybe it will not be in 8 years

1124
01:40:51,684 --> 01:40:53,023
maybe it will be in 20

1125
01:40:53,023 --> 01:40:55,483
but that is not the system

1126
01:40:55,483 --> 01:40:56,863
that I want to be in

1127
01:40:56,863 --> 01:40:59,043
that is the basic problem

1128
01:40:59,043 --> 01:41:01,383
that I have with everything

1129
01:41:01,383 --> 01:41:02,204
it's not that

1130
01:41:02,204 --> 01:41:04,983
people can do whatever they like

1131
01:41:04,983 --> 01:41:06,724
like you can

1132
01:41:06,724 --> 01:41:09,083
buy Shiba Inu coin

1133
01:41:09,083 --> 01:41:09,564
if you want

1134
01:41:09,564 --> 01:41:11,323
that's your choice

1135
01:41:11,323 --> 01:41:13,403
when you don't have any money

1136
01:41:13,403 --> 01:41:15,903
and again

1137
01:41:15,903 --> 01:41:18,204
in the last crash

1138
01:41:18,204 --> 01:41:18,744
of Bitcoin

1139
01:41:18,744 --> 01:41:21,284
where Bitcoin crashed like 25%

1140
01:41:21,284 --> 01:41:23,863
and everything in crypto crashed 90%

1141
01:41:23,863 --> 01:41:25,264
and people got liquidated.

1142
01:41:25,704 --> 01:41:30,224
Like, okay, like you're seeking the pleasure,

1143
01:41:30,403 --> 01:41:31,804
but now you got the extreme pain.

1144
01:41:32,144 --> 01:41:34,083
Are you going to actually learn the lesson

1145
01:41:34,083 --> 01:41:36,164
or you're going to bitch about it?

1146
01:41:36,784 --> 01:41:40,883
So just like technology is not negotiating,

1147
01:41:41,443 --> 01:41:43,744
like proof of work is proof of work.

1148
01:41:44,244 --> 01:41:47,083
And just because you believe in abstraction of things,

1149
01:41:47,083 --> 01:41:48,704
it doesn't mean that they're real.

1150
01:41:48,744 --> 01:42:09,704
Like we create all those things that believe so hard and we create such intense emotion and all the chemicals are released in our body and it is so real for us, but it's based on absolutely nothing.

1151
01:42:09,704 --> 01:42:19,284
So when physics actually work and that reveals that abstraction crashes, like it's just, it is inevitable.

1152
01:42:19,644 --> 01:42:27,403
And as Luca said, it's going to happen and people can self-custody.

1153
01:42:28,023 --> 01:42:37,564
But because it's on fiat infrastructure, they will create all sorts of ways so you don't self-custody if you're in that model.

1154
01:42:37,564 --> 01:42:51,883
Like if you bought Bitcoin in different ways, because what happens if there are problems in the fiat infrastructure and the one thing that can save you, you take it away from them.

1155
01:42:52,264 --> 01:42:56,623
That means like what happens when you get the bank run on gold?

1156
01:42:57,043 --> 01:43:02,304
Like expecting that it's going to be something else with Bitcoin, like that's delusional.

1157
01:43:02,863 --> 01:43:05,443
It will happen the absolute same thing.

1158
01:43:05,443 --> 01:43:19,443
They will close the exits and they'll say, I'm sorry, we're paying you in this Joe Rogan coin or whatever you believe in, whatever amount you want, because you can print it for ourselves and good luck.

1159
01:43:19,443 --> 01:43:23,483
Like, this is our liability, whatever.

1160
01:43:25,284 --> 01:43:34,003
So, yeah, but the ownership is not the only thing that needs to be decentralized.

1161
01:43:34,003 --> 01:43:36,644
and at any point

1162
01:43:36,644 --> 01:43:38,403
Bitcoin needs to have

1163
01:43:38,403 --> 01:43:40,244
this decentralizing force

1164
01:43:40,244 --> 01:43:41,823
trend

1165
01:43:41,823 --> 01:43:44,184
because Bitcoin

1166
01:43:44,184 --> 01:43:46,443
was one of the most centralized

1167
01:43:46,443 --> 01:43:48,483
thing. It started from one

1168
01:43:48,483 --> 01:43:49,883
freaking person

1169
01:43:49,883 --> 01:43:52,383
but the trend is

1170
01:43:52,383 --> 01:43:54,204
in the right direction. Right now

1171
01:43:54,204 --> 01:43:55,963
the institutions figure out that

1172
01:43:55,963 --> 01:43:58,284
they can't

1173
01:43:58,284 --> 01:44:00,323
stop it now

1174
01:44:00,323 --> 01:44:03,123
and they can't

1175
01:44:04,003 --> 01:44:10,423
their propaganda doesn't work on the people that get get it like me like i'm never going back

1176
01:44:10,423 --> 01:44:17,564
and that is one of the things that needs to stay as is because people that got

1177
01:44:17,564 --> 01:44:25,323
out orange peeled like once you see something you can't unsee it like it's dependent on you

1178
01:44:25,323 --> 01:44:33,744
if you're able to achieve your goals i mean life still works like it will require for me to build

1179
01:44:33,744 --> 01:44:42,224
stuff it's not going to happen by itself uh but uh be be aware what you wish for because treasury

1180
01:44:42,224 --> 01:44:50,043
companies for me is just uh the cbdc in a different form like it's exactly the same thing

1181
01:44:50,043 --> 01:44:55,583
and as i said in one of the other articles right now the loyalty points or a frequent

1182
01:44:55,583 --> 01:44:59,644
frequent flying miles, points, whatever.

1183
01:44:59,963 --> 01:45:00,963
That is a CBDC.

1184
01:45:01,384 --> 01:45:04,363
Like, it's just a point in a digital space

1185
01:45:04,363 --> 01:45:06,783
that you can manipulate however you like.

1186
01:45:07,823 --> 01:45:10,604
Like, what's the difference with any other token

1187
01:45:10,604 --> 01:45:13,104
that you can create, whether it's a stock of a company,

1188
01:45:13,523 --> 01:45:14,863
whether it's this or that?

1189
01:45:15,283 --> 01:45:18,704
Yeah, some are harder to manipulate than others,

1190
01:45:19,023 --> 01:45:21,884
but you can create it out of nothing.

1191
01:45:22,403 --> 01:45:24,323
So that is what makes it a shitcoin.

1192
01:45:24,323 --> 01:45:31,564
It's not that, oh, the police will come and you have to release forms or whatever.

1193
01:45:32,023 --> 01:45:34,783
Like, try to do that in the code of Bitcoin.

1194
01:45:35,323 --> 01:45:38,644
Like, yeah, you'll try to do it and you're kicked out of the network.

1195
01:45:38,884 --> 01:45:39,224
Good luck.

1196
01:45:39,684 --> 01:45:41,664
But in the fiat infrastructure, I'm sorry.

1197
01:45:42,304 --> 01:45:49,863
If you got fiat paper claims and they are not going to give it when you most need it, your Bitcoin.

1198
01:45:49,863 --> 01:45:54,724
So that is one very important comment.

1199
01:45:55,304 --> 01:46:01,564
Yes, you can self-custody, but not always if you are on top of a fiat infrastructure.

1200
01:46:02,704 --> 01:46:02,764
Yeah.

1201
01:46:03,023 --> 01:46:10,804
I do think that if Saylor is successful in doing that, or whoever is going to be, you

1202
01:46:10,804 --> 01:46:16,384
know, tying tether to the United States debt and allowing the U.S. to propagate their debt

1203
01:46:16,384 --> 01:46:23,423
across the entire world in sums of a dollar at a time instead of treasury bills, large, large,

1204
01:46:23,503 --> 01:46:29,744
large chunks. I think all it does is accelerate the fall of the dollar. I think all it does is

1205
01:46:29,744 --> 01:46:33,583
encourage them to print more. And so if you encourage them to print more, then you just

1206
01:46:33,583 --> 01:46:37,844
encourage more inflation. And if you encourage more inflation, then you encourage people to wake

1207
01:46:37,844 --> 01:46:47,644
go and to uh and like you say you know the trend is such that um there are x amount of bitcoiners

1208
01:46:47,644 --> 01:46:54,704
and there are y amount of people that are not bitcoiners and this x is only getting bigger and

1209
01:46:54,704 --> 01:47:02,104
this y is only getting smaller and no one is going from x to y everyone only goes from y to x like

1210
01:47:02,104 --> 01:47:04,583
Some are switching back or whatever.

1211
01:47:05,283 --> 01:47:10,144
And we're just in the phase that they managed to slow down adoption.

1212
01:47:10,704 --> 01:47:12,943
Because right now they're not laughing at Bitcoin.

1213
01:47:13,164 --> 01:47:16,644
Because when they laughed at Bitcoin, that puts attention into it.

1214
01:47:16,744 --> 01:47:19,204
People look more into it and whatever, whatever.

1215
01:47:19,564 --> 01:47:23,823
Right now, Bitcoin hits all-time highs so many times this year.

1216
01:47:24,344 --> 01:47:25,564
Nobody cared.

1217
01:47:26,083 --> 01:47:30,003
Bitcoin was nowhere to be found outside of Bitcoin circles.

1218
01:47:30,003 --> 01:47:38,923
and now because bitcoin is still a tiny tiny tiny market and they can manipulate the shit out of it

1219
01:47:38,923 --> 01:47:49,363
and this is what's happening so but the next uh going up or going down if they

1220
01:47:49,363 --> 01:47:58,483
manage to prolong this stabilization the next one will be very violent so i i think

1221
01:47:58,483 --> 01:48:08,224
the volatility is a feature because when you go up it creates a tension into it it puts leverage

1222
01:48:08,224 --> 01:48:14,403
but going down is a very important feature where people actually think about self-custody

1223
01:48:14,403 --> 01:48:23,244
like when you take away the crashes now we become oh this is stable or put this into the etf and

1224
01:48:23,244 --> 01:48:25,344
this treasury company and anything else.

1225
01:48:25,844 --> 01:48:31,123
And at some point, they have so much that they will have a huge influence over it.

1226
01:48:31,344 --> 01:48:38,623
The only decentralizing force in that type of environment is different countries adopted

1227
01:48:38,623 --> 01:48:40,363
as fast as America.

1228
01:48:40,783 --> 01:48:44,503
Because right now, I'm sorry, but America are dominating again, and I don't like it.

1229
01:48:46,164 --> 01:48:48,003
Yeah, it's not yet for you guys.

1230
01:48:48,003 --> 01:48:51,564
That American, quote unquote, domination or whatever is just really the reminder that

1231
01:48:51,564 --> 01:48:56,564
we live in a multipolar world and that these different jurisdictions, if you have the

1232
01:48:56,564 --> 01:49:01,423
assertion of American power, then that is just a reminder to other jurisdictions that

1233
01:49:01,423 --> 01:49:05,003
in the international order, there is no sovereign.

1234
01:49:05,744 --> 01:49:12,724
And so that is a double reinforcement that people need to have a sovereign asset themselves.

1235
01:49:12,844 --> 01:49:17,384
And I think that if you're scared of treasury companies, just know that they are tied to

1236
01:49:17,384 --> 01:49:22,583
particular jurisdictions and people live in a multi-jurisdictional world and you know it's a

1237
01:49:22,583 --> 01:49:28,323
dog-eat-dog lawless world in the end people will always look at national affairs international

1238
01:49:28,323 --> 01:49:34,003
affairs rather and see that that is the case and want to hold the hardest asset for themselves

1239
01:49:34,003 --> 01:49:40,423
rather than delegate it to something that's under the purview of american law yeah and just because

1240
01:49:40,423 --> 01:49:42,443
I don't like all those things, it doesn't mean

1241
01:49:42,443 --> 01:49:44,363
that I'm too worried

1242
01:49:44,363 --> 01:49:44,983
about it.

1243
01:49:46,244 --> 01:49:48,123
Fiat games will be played

1244
01:49:48,123 --> 01:49:49,023
all over.

1245
01:49:50,064 --> 01:49:51,264
Yeah, but

1246
01:49:51,264 --> 01:49:54,344
it won't change really my trajectory

1247
01:49:54,344 --> 01:49:56,244
other than how much

1248
01:49:56,244 --> 01:49:57,863
faster Bitcoin goes up or down.

1249
01:49:58,283 --> 01:50:00,264
But again, I need

1250
01:50:00,264 --> 01:50:02,543
to, just like the code, just because

1251
01:50:02,543 --> 01:50:04,023
and the refrigerator

1252
01:50:04,023 --> 01:50:06,104
we need to integrate

1253
01:50:06,104 --> 01:50:08,384
all those infrastructures everywhere

1254
01:50:08,384 --> 01:50:09,724
and because they're hard

1255
01:50:09,724 --> 01:50:17,323
right now we will be so much ahead of everybody else because we know all the terrain all the

1256
01:50:17,323 --> 01:50:23,164
infrastructure and people will figure won't even have any bitcoin and they need to figure out later

1257
01:50:23,164 --> 01:50:30,164
yeah it will be easier to figure out later because the ux will be much better but we'll be so much

1258
01:50:30,164 --> 01:50:37,564
ahead because the fiat let's say is two percent inflation bitcoin is two percent deflation so

1259
01:50:37,564 --> 01:50:48,304
So I'm gaining all that traction in what I said, in health, in my social networks, in technology, in everything, and in the money itself.

1260
01:50:48,823 --> 01:50:52,003
But it's just an impossible question.

1261
01:50:52,003 --> 01:50:59,264
Like, humans are messy individually, but when you put 8 billion of them, it's unpredictable.

1262
01:50:59,884 --> 01:51:02,003
So, yeah.

1263
01:51:02,384 --> 01:51:06,664
But either way, I'm not too worried about it.

1264
01:51:06,664 --> 01:51:13,184
But it's just kind of revealing that people don't really spend time thinking.

1265
01:51:15,164 --> 01:51:17,664
Yeah, yeah, it's easier not to.

1266
01:51:18,744 --> 01:51:23,144
You know, Ivan, we've reached a point now we've covered split payments.

1267
01:51:23,283 --> 01:51:30,644
We've talked about the user experience of Noster and Bitcoin wallets and the payment process.

1268
01:51:31,543 --> 01:51:41,583
We've talked about the fiat kind of disease that pervades not just our money, but the products that we use, the experience that we have in daily life.

1269
01:51:43,023 --> 01:51:48,704
Talked about the Lightning Network and how it's growing and CBDC, some things like that.

1270
01:51:50,083 --> 01:51:52,583
It's about time for me to go outside and get some sunlight.

1271
01:51:52,844 --> 01:51:57,884
But before I do that, I want to make sure that I give you the chance to have the final word here.

1272
01:51:57,884 --> 01:52:00,644
what do you want to tell us?

1273
01:52:00,724 --> 01:52:02,744
What do you want to tell people that are going to listen to this

1274
01:52:02,744 --> 01:52:03,963
that have gotten it by God

1275
01:52:03,963 --> 01:52:05,764
if they got this far in this conversation

1276
01:52:05,764 --> 01:52:06,903
they are committed

1277
01:52:06,903 --> 01:52:09,503
and so

1278
01:52:09,503 --> 01:52:12,123
leave us on a high note

1279
01:52:12,123 --> 01:52:13,823
and give us something

1280
01:52:13,823 --> 01:52:14,844
give us something good

1281
01:52:14,844 --> 01:52:18,123
I'm sorry but I have a bassy voice

1282
01:52:18,123 --> 01:52:19,823
so I don't have the

1283
01:52:19,823 --> 01:52:21,283
falsetto high note

1284
01:52:21,283 --> 01:52:23,764
but yeah

1285
01:52:23,764 --> 01:52:26,523
the high note is

1286
01:52:26,523 --> 01:52:29,604
whoever is listening out there

1287
01:52:29,604 --> 01:52:30,483
is that

1288
01:52:30,483 --> 01:52:33,043
you're ahead of

1289
01:52:33,043 --> 01:52:35,884
the majority of the world.

1290
01:52:37,623 --> 01:52:38,423
And

1291
01:52:38,423 --> 01:52:40,963
just because you're ahead,

1292
01:52:41,104 --> 01:52:42,804
that doesn't mean that you won.

1293
01:52:44,003 --> 01:52:46,123
But when you are ahead,

1294
01:52:46,844 --> 01:52:48,384
press your advantage.

1295
01:52:48,903 --> 01:52:50,783
Go and do even more.

1296
01:52:51,164 --> 01:52:52,304
You don't need to be

1297
01:52:52,304 --> 01:52:53,604
as intense.

1298
01:52:54,344 --> 01:52:55,684
But really,

1299
01:52:55,684 --> 01:52:58,804
know where you're aiming.

1300
01:52:59,463 --> 01:53:03,684
I would like to go back to the dopamine thing again

1301
01:53:03,684 --> 01:53:07,844
because there, as you said, it's like a seesaw.

1302
01:53:08,204 --> 01:53:11,963
Like when you seek pleasure, like it builds up the pain

1303
01:53:11,963 --> 01:53:16,003
and in order to balance itself, you need to experience a lot of pain

1304
01:53:16,003 --> 01:53:17,804
in order to reset your system.

1305
01:53:18,003 --> 01:53:22,344
And the reverse, people that went through enormous pain

1306
01:53:22,344 --> 01:53:25,123
can be the most happy people ever

1307
01:53:25,123 --> 01:53:28,363
because now their baseline is completely different

1308
01:53:28,363 --> 01:53:32,644
that somebody, oh, somebody really disliked me

1309
01:53:32,644 --> 01:53:34,304
in the YouTube comments or whatever.

1310
01:53:34,844 --> 01:53:37,543
But in order to do that, as I said,

1311
01:53:37,744 --> 01:53:40,164
I'm saying this now for four years.

1312
01:53:40,283 --> 01:53:43,043
Start with the freaking list for your life

1313
01:53:43,043 --> 01:53:44,363
outside of Bitcoin.

1314
01:53:44,684 --> 01:53:47,384
Like what the hell do you want to achieve

1315
01:53:47,384 --> 01:53:49,003
and use Bitcoin to achieve?

1316
01:53:49,483 --> 01:53:51,844
The other thing for dopamine,

1317
01:53:52,104 --> 01:53:53,963
which is a bit of a trick,

1318
01:53:53,963 --> 01:53:56,684
which I learned like eight years ago or something.

1319
01:53:57,064 --> 01:54:00,744
The thing when we face something

1320
01:54:00,744 --> 01:54:03,184
that will be discomforting or painful

1321
01:54:03,184 --> 01:54:06,903
and we clinch and we don't engage,

1322
01:54:07,064 --> 01:54:10,523
like there's like one, two or three second decision

1323
01:54:10,523 --> 01:54:14,204
that you need to make and we fall back to our systems.

1324
01:54:14,684 --> 01:54:16,943
Lucas, you mentioned it in your previous,

1325
01:54:17,283 --> 01:54:19,064
like you fall back to,

1326
01:54:19,423 --> 01:54:21,963
oh, I see this discomfort or anything.

1327
01:54:21,963 --> 01:54:28,003
So my system is trying to avoid it, go the other direction or ignore it or whatever.

1328
01:54:28,644 --> 01:54:38,823
But the biggest trick that I learned to retrain this, that you see the discomfort and you go towards it, is doing coach hours.

1329
01:54:39,184 --> 01:54:44,023
I learned this from Wim Hof, the Iceman.

1330
01:54:44,023 --> 01:54:53,184
And I learned this, that if you go to the gym and it's hard and it's everything, but going into the cold shower, it takes like 20 seconds.

1331
01:54:53,403 --> 01:54:59,884
It doesn't require a lot of time and it retrains your whole system that, oh, I don't want to do the dishes.

1332
01:55:00,283 --> 01:55:02,204
Oh, I don't want this or anything.

1333
01:55:02,423 --> 01:55:08,923
All those one second decision, it depletes you and you're seeking the comfort and you're building up the pain that you need to reset.

1334
01:55:08,923 --> 01:55:17,443
But when you go into the shower, you will take those small little pains, small little discomforts and you'll lead a happier life.

1335
01:55:17,823 --> 01:55:25,363
You will feel and have the energy to actually go for the things that you want because doing the least is not enough.

1336
01:55:25,783 --> 01:55:30,923
Going to pursue after it will be discomfort because you don't have it now.

1337
01:55:31,344 --> 01:55:32,644
Comfort is what we have now.

1338
01:55:32,963 --> 01:55:35,344
Discomfort is outside of our reach.

1339
01:55:35,344 --> 01:55:46,704
And when you actually do cold showers and you have the list, now you reset your whole system and you go and you are actually going to achieve it using Bitcoin.

1340
01:55:47,104 --> 01:55:48,043
That is my message.

1341
01:55:48,764 --> 01:55:49,083
Excellent.

1342
01:55:49,804 --> 01:55:50,384
Well spoken.

1343
01:55:50,583 --> 01:55:54,224
As Wim Hof says, if you go to the cold, the cold won't come to you.

1344
01:55:55,304 --> 01:56:04,804
And yeah, Grant and I both very experienced with going to the cold, having dipped into the frigid waters of the Columbia River many times.

1345
01:56:04,804 --> 01:56:05,903
among other things.

1346
01:56:06,043 --> 01:56:08,463
So yeah, I completely agree.

1347
01:56:08,724 --> 01:56:09,963
That little cold shower

1348
01:56:09,963 --> 01:56:11,344
that'll push you in the right direction.

1349
01:56:12,943 --> 01:56:14,644
Ivan, thank you so much for your time.

1350
01:56:14,943 --> 01:56:16,804
I really appreciate you sharing

1351
01:56:16,804 --> 01:56:21,783
the driving force that is pushing you.

1352
01:56:22,023 --> 01:56:23,623
You know, you're not here for number go up.

1353
01:56:23,923 --> 01:56:25,144
You're not here for the tech.

1354
01:56:25,684 --> 01:56:27,344
You're here for the life.

1355
01:56:27,983 --> 01:56:29,204
I'm not the only thing.

1356
01:56:29,604 --> 01:56:31,123
Like I don't want it to go up.

1357
01:56:31,744 --> 01:56:32,224
Thank you.

1358
01:56:32,224 --> 01:56:36,704
I don't have any other savings, so I needed to go up.

1359
01:56:37,023 --> 01:56:37,903
All right, fair enough.

1360
01:56:37,923 --> 01:56:38,684
Not the only thing.

1361
01:56:39,403 --> 01:56:39,923
Fair enough.

1362
01:56:40,543 --> 01:56:42,684
Well, Grant, what do you got for us on the way out?

1363
01:56:42,684 --> 01:56:44,664
Oh, man, just stick around for a second, Ivan.

1364
01:56:44,863 --> 01:56:49,144
Of course, this is a Riverside publication, and if you jump off, we're not uploaded.

1365
01:56:49,244 --> 01:56:51,344
This whole conversation is gone, but that's all I got.

1366
01:56:51,423 --> 01:56:52,384
Thanks, man, for the convo.

1367
01:56:52,443 --> 01:56:53,184
It's always awesome.

1368
01:56:54,783 --> 01:56:55,304
Thank you, man.