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All right. Thank you for joining us here on Bitcoin Study Sessions. This is Grant. That is David R. Sampson. David R. Sampson is a Canadian-American evolutionary anthropologist. He is an associate professor of biological anthropology at the University of Toronto, Mississauga. Did I get that right?

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Mississauga. Yeah, it took me a minute, too.

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Yeah. And he's also the director of the Sleep and Human Evolution Lab.

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Sleep and Human Evolution Lab.

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So his research explores the human uniqueness through the lens of sleep, cognition, sociality, and tribal instincts in primates and human societies,

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including some fieldwork with wild chimpanzees, orangutans, lemurs, and small-scale human groups.

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Um, yeah, he's a fascinating guy.

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Uh, we are acquainted with him through my time at the network school, uh, because David

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went to Balji Stronov-Awesome's network school and gave, to my knowledge, the most popular

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talk that's ever been given there.

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Um, and, uh, we connected over that because he wrote this bestselling book called Our

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Tribal Future, which we reviewed on the podcast.

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And now we are blessed to be able to have a conversation with David as well.

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So, David, thank you for joining us. We really appreciate it.

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And to get us started off, really, I think the place that I want to start from is we came to this because you have a focus on tribalism camps and bands and tribes.

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But you also brought in the software thesis, which we found utterly fascinating.

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Would you kind of step into how you found that and how it plays in really beyond just the infinite scaling of trust that Bitcoin allows?

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Awesome. Yeah. First of all, guys, I've got to thank you both for your proof of work.

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it i i've been on a lot of podcasts and you'd be amazed at how how rare it is that the people who

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are doing the job of interviewing you have actually read the content of your book the good ones have

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probably skimmed it and they've they they have a couple concepts or themes that they want to

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explore with you you guys did the proof of work i mean grant your summary i think is the absolute

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gold standard of a summary of my book that I could possibly imagine. I'll probably just integrate that

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into my class because it was so good. It was, it was so precise and your guys' conversation on it,

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you guys really dug deep and I, I really appreciated it. So first and foremost, you guys are

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doing a really cool thing by actually reading the content that you guys explore together.

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And I think that makes you pretty unique in this space.

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So, yeah, Jason Lowry, he came on my radar relatively early once he blew up on Twitter X.

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I've got a core group of friends that have been in the Bitcoin space maybe since about 2016, 2017.

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they'd been planting seeds in my brain for maybe three or four years before I started deep diving

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it. Software was one of those moments where it became a truly interesting anthropological question

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at that point. And I think I marked up Jason's thesis about as thoroughly as I've marked up any

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book I've ever written. It was absolutely fascinating and engaging. I think the best

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way to do this i've got a couple slides on it yeah and i'll pop those up and then we can really

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start exploring this idea of what i think the software the most at least from the perspective

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of an evolutionary anthropologist this concept of not just the sovereign individual but sovereign

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community right and i and i think that jason gives us the actual playbook on how that that

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thing can mature and come to fruition.

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Let's see, I can actually share right here.

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It's great.

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And in talking about that too, you mentioned evolutionary anthropology and we're kind of,

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we want to know how, maybe you're going to get to this, but how Lowry's thesis fits into

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your particular academic background and also your path towards Bitcoin, given the particular

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perspective that you have.

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just given all that you know on this very specific, you know, this scientific area.

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Yeah, totally. So, okay. So can you guys see the screen?

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We can, yeah.

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Awesome. Okay, so we'll start, right? We'll start with anthropology.

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So this is the Hadza. This is the Singele camp.

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I was there in 2015 and 2016, and I was there for a National Geographic-sponsored project on sleep and cognition and activity.

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Where is this located at?

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This is one—I mean, I've done some remote field work in my time, including with wild chimpanzees, which we might talk about, actually, when we get to power law theory.

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but uh this is in singheli tanzania and you um fly into dar al salam and it's a about a two days

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track off road to get to this camp and it's we me and my research assistant ibram ibrahim mubala

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who's like right behind me there in that picture we got stuck on the way out twice like it was

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super remote. And the second time, a couple of Hatsa guys came and helped us actually get the

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four by four out of the mud so we could get to camp. So this is after about six weeks of field

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work. And at that point, I'd been living in this camp day in, day out. And this was one of those,

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if it wasn't for this experience, coupled with my experience of social isolation that I had

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accidentally gone on by pursuing an academic career in North America.

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This was a direct juxtaposition to that experience of choosing a career track,

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having to geolocate, be stripped away from your kith and your kin and your best friends

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and everything that makes sense to you, your entire intersubjective belief network,

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and going towards a job that ensures that if you remove yourself from that core geolocation,

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you are socially isolated.

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And so as a visiting assistant professor at University of Nevada, Las Vegas,

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and as a postdoc at Duke, I was certainly socially isolated.

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And you don't even know, it just starts creeping into your bones, right?

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And then I did this field research project with the Hadza,

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and it was the extreme inverse of that.

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And I got to live with the people that rely on each other day to day for the shared project of survival and reproduction.

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And it was incredible.

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It was definitely an eye-opening thing.

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And if it wasn't for those two things interacting, I would have never, I think, written our tribal future.

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So one of the things I noticed was how, as a default, how day-to-day life is relatively pro-social.

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And what do I mean by that?

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because so much is at stake, there are mechanisms set in place by which these face-to-face

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relationships allow a certain level of human thriving and for it to be done in a relatively

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egalitarian way because they're face-to-face. And the science has borne out on this. So this

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is a relatively recent PNAS study, one of the most renowned journals on the planet, really.

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And what they showed was that there's high life satisfaction reported among small scale societies with low incomes.

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And that is directly in comparison to you can see on the on the X axis here.

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Let's make sure to like because there are people that just listen to the audio.

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So walk us through it.

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What is PNAS?

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What does that what does it mean?

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Proceedings of National Academy of Science.

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OK.

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Now, it's it's I mean, it's really hard to get published in it.

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It just means it's a really high quality scientific study.

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So on the X axis, you have GDP.

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And then on the Y axis, you have life evaluation.

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So that's basically a question on a survey.

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A subjective.

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A subjective statement of the purpose, meaning, and well-being that you experience on a day-to-day basis.

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And you can see here this purple line in the bottom right shows that, yes, money drives the wealth of nations, does drive overall life evaluation.

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But you could see this really odd outlier.

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And this is pretty extreme.

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You look at this to the top left of this graph and you're seeing small scale societies in the same top right trajectory on on the median as it expands.

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But you're seeing it's almost a whole senior deviation above these developed global northern populations.

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Yeah. So for people that are just listening, what he's talking about is basically there are small scale societies that are reporting a level of, I guess, satisfaction and contentment with life that is equal to the people of larger nations where people who make 50 looks like about between 50 and 100 dollars per capita are just as happy as people that make 100 thousand dollars per capita.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. So three orders of magnitude difference.

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That's a great summary, Lucas. And just to so we're on the same page here.

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A small scale society is one that isn't engaged in the modern economy.

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So the way that you make your your living is by actually searching out your calories or growing them in some cases.

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So it just means that you're not engaged in the modern large scale post industrial system.

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and this usually means you're off the beaten path and it usually means your community sizes are

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relatively small at most probably villages of 150 which is as you guys know because you read the

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book is about band level so um think of like if we're to scale this back to the Hadza the Hadza

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have about 30 to 40 individuals in their camp and it looks like this number's been pretty stable since

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early human evolution. If you look at the archaeological sites, the paleoanthropological

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record, it's probably about the campsites that they look at the refuse, the amount of bones,

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they can estimate probably between 25 and 30 adults at these campsites. So that's a very

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stable number for our genus throughout its evolutionary history. And the thing is, what

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What this slide is showing is that all things being equal, if you are given autonomy and the capacity to make your decisions at a local level with people that you know and have a ledger of record of repeated interaction with, you don't need immense amounts of wealth to be happy.

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In fact, all things being equal, you're more happy.

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Now, this begs the question, why is it that we no longer are able to dwell in a construct, in a social network, that obviously seems to have some sort of well-being enhancing component to it?

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And so this slide right here I think is super important because we get bogged down.

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We get really bogged down because of the tribe drive, because of coalitionary cognition.

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We get bogged down in politics very easily.

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We're very easily triggered by some very basic core drives.

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And the purpose of this slide here is twofold to show a that.

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In fact, most of our political inclinations are actually ancient drives and we'll disentangle that.

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But also that there is a reason why we know it's very difficult for us to just go off into our own group and hang out and do something local.

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and that's because since 10,000 years ago we have the agrarian super tribe as an innovation as soon

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as you had 10,000 years ago to where groups of people that had tamed genes of animals and plants

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could then build surpluses of them and those surpluses are really juicy energetic targets

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for other groups and so what manifested was this basically post-agrarian super tribal construct

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because if you could command the kinetic energy of a organized group of of males of fighting age

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you could gobble up these little stacks of energy all over the map so now we're now we're leading

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into software. This is now we're leading now we're leading directly into software.

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OK, but I want to just make sure that I so for the people listening and so what we've got this

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slide is there's four squares, two on top, two on bottom, equal size, and they are labeled on top

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authoritarian agrarian super tribe. This is what David has been talking about. On the bottom is

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libertarian in parentheses, paleolithic autonomy. So that would be, I assume, the opposite

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of the agrarian super tribe.

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And then on the left, you have left Paleolithic CPP.

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What does CPP stand for?

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That is Central Place Provisioning.

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And so.

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OK, so this is communism.

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This is communism, man.

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Here's where it gets.

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So I'm going to.

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Yeah, go ahead and finish it up.

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Yeah.

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And then so and then on the right, you've got Paleolithic Anti-Freeloader.

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So this would be, you know, the merit based, I guess, where it's like, you know, this is mine.

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You didn't earn it. You can't have it.

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And then overlaying those four squares are two concentric circles, which I assume represent camp and camp and band.

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But I'm not quite sure.

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Yeah, that's just saying, where are you in the place?

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Like how how extreme are you in in one or the other?

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You could take any society and you could place them on this quadrant.

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It would be a much better picture, overall descriptive picture than just the left or right, which we seem to obsess about.

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But it's a little bit more complicated than that.

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So, yes, I love how the left being Paleolithic central place provisioning.

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That's where this if you're in the Hadza camp and you hunt successfully, say, a zebra, which happened when I was out there.

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I was out there with there's a there's a couple things that have to happen. You have to bring the meat back and it is cut up and distributed by the women. They'll process it. And then the elders get what's called a peme meat. They get a special meat and then it's distributed relatively egalitarian amongst the group.

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Now, this is this is where the instinct for communism occurs. But the trick is this really only works face to face. Right.

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Explain egalitarian for people that don't know what big words mean.

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Yeah.

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Egalitarian means that there is no hierarchy of dominance or coercion that is overt.

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So it's basically given out kind of equally.

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That's, yeah, relatively equally.

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It's very much everyone is each other's, you know, everyone is each other's social safety net, effectively.

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Gotcha.

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Now, on the other hand, the inverse of that is the right.

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And it means that, okay, you're engaging in this contract where if a hunter is successful, they're going to bring back the meat and you're going to get a cut.

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But if you don't in turn share, that is grounds for excommunication, right?

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Because you're freeloading on the largesse of others.

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So here we have it.

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We have the modern right and the modern left.

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Both are ancient drives that have been finely tuned over million years of human evolution.

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And we can we confuse these things because of the scaling issue, the scaling problem.

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Right. And so on the on the south here and the bottom of the axis, the libertarian axis, you can see here.

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This is basically the the extreme social norm of autonomy in a small scale camp.

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you cannot boss people around.

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They're like the Hadza.

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They're one of the most autonomous people I've ever met in my life.

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You can't tell anybody to do anything.

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And if you do, you're probably going to get the opposite result that you want.

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It really is an opt-in system.

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Everything's an opt-in system.

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And the reason why they can do that, and I think we'll get to this later,

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especially when we talk about the network state and scaling of the network state writ large,

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is that they have an exit, a very fluid exit strategy.

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If things aren't going well in the camp this season,

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they can just go to a different camp in the band next season, right?

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They can walk, and that's fine.

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And this was the state of play until 10,000 years ago

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where you get to the authoritarian agrarian super tribes.

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And that's why Jason Lowry's thesis hit me like a bolt of lightning effectively

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Because what you've got with softwar is a mechanism by which these small scale societies can now begin defending against the trajectory of the past 10,000 years, which has been agrarian supertribes, which has been in its modern instantiation, it's been the nation states.

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Nation states. Yeah. Nation state. Exactly. Again, just I would just want to give the background on this. So there will be people that listen to this that don't know what software is. Software in Jason Lowry, look him up, fascinating individual, but it is power projection theory.

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So basically it's saying that if you look at the history of conflict in the world, everything comes down to who can project the most power.

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And if you measure it in terms of that for success, then Bitcoin is the most powerful weapon ever created because it projects an infinitely scalable power over zero space because it's digital.

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um so yeah yeah um read the book software we that was our first thing that we actually did on this

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podcast was software so this is why we're so interested in it was because this is where we

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started um i apologize for for cutting you off i just i want to encourage people to read that book

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because that's where we started um grant started doing these killer summaries and and really

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engaged a lot of people no i'm i'm glad you did the summary it's a it really is a fascinating read

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and uh it is actually a very anthropological read too he's got a full chapter too that that just

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really um i sent him a message because we had been in some level of contact over over x and uh

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i sent him a message letting him know that i i gave him a review of the book and i let him know

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that it was likely a better anthropological summary of the past 10 000 years than most of

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the graduate level work I see in my department. It was fantastic. And it was done. And the reason

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why I loved it and why I thought it was especially unique is because it was done from the viewpoint

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of a physicist, right? Where the core mechanics of watts and joules and energy were never forgotten.

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They were always the foundation, which is what makes software such a compelling argument. And so

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So if you've got, you know, human nature is all about incentive structures.

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So if Bitcoin de-incentivizes, say, the attack on the individual to extract their resources because it's protected by these jewels that are connected to this encryption protocol,

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then the same thing can apply for the sovereign community and so it's sort of the the the move

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i'm making here is one of in the book we talk about how there is no such thing as a nuclear

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family right like you plop a nuclear family out into siberia and in one generation it's extirpated

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it's it's gone it's done it can't it cannot survive it cannot reproduce the same can be said

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certainly by an individual. Any solo individual is nothing in evolutionary terms, is nothing

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without a basal community that likely probably needs between just to survive population genetics

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and bad luck, probably needs 500 individuals in a social network. That's like the bare minimum,

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right? So if this can protect the individual, it can also protect the community.

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And what I see here is a de-incentivization of the extraction of community-level resources that are disembodied, that are protected by encrypted power.

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If communities can start leveraging this technology, they gain for the first time some level of purchase and defense against what has been the running narrative for the past 10,000 years, which is the nation, state, tribe, steamrolling local communities at will.

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That's sort of why I love the software thesis.

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Yeah, this is, I think, when you look at especially like the 60s and 70s, there were tons. And even even before that, there's always been experiments in small small scale communities.

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You know, we're going to create this utopia. And a lot of them obviously fail because it's typically some crazy white guy yoga teacher that wants to have sex with everybody. And that doesn't work.

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But the ones that persevere, they end up becoming steamrolled because they can't get around this problem of we have to have money and we have to use the nation state's money.

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And that means that we're tied to them. And this is central to Balji's network state thesis, which is that because you have decentralized money, you can now start your own country and you can do it in a way that.

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And previously, when everybody went to go start their own country, they were all kind of sink or swim individually. But now you've got literally hundreds of these network societies that are popping up. And by using Bitcoin as the base money of them, they are all raising each other up and they are all celebrating each other's successes to, I guess, to further proliferate.

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So, yeah, that's that's totally right. And I just one more thought on software in particular, software in particular, is that.

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I think. When we think of, you know, the common phrase in the Bitcoin community of once in a species innovation, I don't think that's an overstatement at all.

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I agree. As you guys noted, you know, one of the central tenets of our tribal future was this exploration of the trust paradox.

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And you guys, Grant, you did a fantastic job of describing it. Just to rehash here on the base layer, trying to solve the eternal question of who do I trust? Who do I invest in? Who do I engage in a pro-social reciprocal network with?

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And for a billion years, that answer was genetics. It was kin. It was those with the closest DNA you distribute your energy towards. And then for those social species, relatively rare, there's maybe about a dozen on the planet that have the social networks and the brain size to be able to measure a ledger of record complex enough that they can actually take into account friendship.

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It's basically a pro-social reciprocal relationship through space time between individuals, dyads.

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And then the most recent innovation was tribes 300,000 years ago.

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You have intersubjective belief networks leveraging symbols as a kind of like secret passcode to be able to say, ah, if this individual, despite the fact that I've never met them, if this individual is emitting this signal, then I can bootstrap cooperation with them.

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And so where software really opens it up is the fact that in 2009, when Satoshi Nakamoto innovated Bitcoin, we had for the first time in human history, a way to store currency and human energy by which no intersubjective belief network could manipulate for its own ends.

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And that had never been the case for the entirety of the human condition beforehand.

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And so I really do think it's, you know, if it's not Bitcoin, the concept itself is like, you know, Pandora's box is open.

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And I have every faith for a lot of reasons that it's likely going to be Bitcoin.

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But if it's not, we're just going to innovate our way back to it because it's too crucial an innovation for our species.

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And it's really kind of existential.

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And in the terms that you use here to tie together all of the evolutionary history, when we move from genetics to friends in this pyramid, you talk about a ledger of social relations.

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Then when you get above that to the tribal level, you begin talking about tribal tokens.

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And it's interesting, this language, this vocab of ledgers and tokens leading us up to Bitcoin, which is itself a ledger that nobody can corrupt, which nobody can manipulate.

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And so just to tile that together is, I mean, what does tile that together is the notion of being able to trust that when you give value, you receive value back, what solves the problem of trust.

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And so we need a ledger to account for that. Or like, how does money fit into this evolutionary history and how does it culminate in Bitcoin? You kind of described that already, but just to use that terminology of ledgers and tokens leading us up to Bitcoin.

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yeah um you know i mean so what i see it as is basically a cryptographically protected

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concentric circle right um you without this ledger that is incorruptible you're reducing

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the likelihood that groups are going to be able to cooperate amongst themselves despite the fact

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that they're strangers.

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And so this is sort of, to me,

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this is a prerequisite innovation

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to our species actually making it

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through the 21st century.

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If we don't nail this now,

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I think it reduces the probabilistic likelihood

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of our species' survival.

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I agree.

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Yeah.

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It's because the precipice of AI,

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I think AI without Bitcoin destroys humanity

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because you can just run amok

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and there's no limiting factor.

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Absolutely. That's where the God Kings, all of a sudden, when you can't even negotiate with the God Kings, because the God Kings are some sort of misaligned artificial intelligence, that's when you're really in trouble.

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So you have to have a way to seal the back door such that the god kings that control the protocol cannot do whatever they want with it.

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Because an AI would have every advantage in that scenario, especially since they're intrinsically code, right?

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So they're intrinsically going to be able to manipulate this at a scale that no human, the worst intentioned human, could potentially use for its own gain.

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That's why Bitcoin is like the ultimate defensive system for disembodied information, which is to Lowry's thesis is more and more as we evolve technologically as a species, more and more of the things that we prize are disembodied.

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They're out there. They're digital. And so that's the fact that this is coming online right now is absolutely crucial and essential.

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And for the sovereign community itself, more and more of the things that the sovereign community needs to survive is disembodied.

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It's digital.

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More of the resources that you can accumulate such that you can actually empower your sovereign community in the real world is disembodied.

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So Bitcoin really allows that protective thicker wall, that proof of work encrypted thicker wall, cell wall, such that the community within can survive.

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And that's been the story since cellular life and evolved one and a half billion years ago.

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It's like you've got cell A, you've got cell B.

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if cell A has a larger, thicker cell wall,

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the cost of attack is higher.

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And so predators in an environment,

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they obey the laws of physics too.

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Am I going to spend more joules per second

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trying to pop this cell wall open

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or am I going to take the easier target?

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Every time, one out of one,

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they're going to take the easier target.

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All a cell wall is, is just the analogy of what we've been doing ever since. It's a fortress. It's a state. And now, hopefully, it's a network.

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I want to set Grant up to ask a question, but before I do that, I want to give him a verbal high five because I'm just sitting here basking in what I think is the brilliance of connecting the ledgers and tokens of tribes with the ledger of tokens that is Bitcoin.

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That's really artful.

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I think that's really cool.

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What I just wonder, like you talk about an increasing disembodiment in our current age, our willingness to accept value that is disembodied.

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That brings us back to the friendship level of accounting for our relations with others, right?

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Because the ledger we had at the friendship level is a disembodied ledger of prior interactions.

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Maybe it's embodied in some sense.

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I don't know.

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I mean, I guess what do you think about that?

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Like we have the friendship level where we have an internal ledger where we index social relations with other people and determine if we can trust them based on past relationships.

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Then we move up to the tribal level where tokens have to become physical and embodied because we can no longer index them.

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We have to rely on external signals.

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And then Bitcoin brings us back to disembodiment, the internal ledger or an external ledger, but that is digital and disembodied.

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I don't know if that makes sense.

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Are these ledgers, like, are we returning to the friendship level, but allowing friendship with people who aren't friends through a disembodied ledger?

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Yeah.

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I want to hear you go.

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I want to hear you start from the importance of the innovation of friendship.

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Because reading that in your book, as a result of reading that, I reached out to all of the guys from my band.

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Like, when I took off and started traveling the world, I had, you know, I kind of left that behind.

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And you had a line in there.

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You talk about the honor group of friends.

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It's like five people.

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And there's a line in there about how these people, there's a case to be made that they are actually irreplaceable.

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That you get these five and you don't get more.

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You don't get to move on and find more.

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And so if you can kind of address Grant's question, but also sort of start from the top down of like the importance of and you mentioned it before, but the importance of the innovation of friendship, because you list it off, friendship, tribes and Bitcoin basically as like once in a once in a species type innovations.

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Yeah. Well, just thinking about what Grant just said and then writing into what you were asking there, Lucas, I actually think, Grant, I'm going to push back a little bit.

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Maybe there's a poetic metaphor to be made, but the one thing about friendship is that, to Lucas's point here, it is irreplaceable.

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And once you get to the tribal level, you're piercing the bubble of human computational capacity.

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And it's the limitations on human computational capacity that make a face-to-face relationship potentially irreplaceable.

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And so I think Bitcoin, it's the perfection of how to scale trust infinitely, right?

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As to where friendship is almost the perfection of how to embody trust in the meat space, within the limits of human computational capacity.

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And so I think those things are both very distinct, but in a perfect world, all four levels, imagine a world where you have a majority of humanity's societies where that base layer is satisfied.

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So you have strong kin networks that are intergenerational.

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You have the wisdom of the elders.

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You have the meaning and purpose driven stimuli of children around you.

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Right.

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So you've got this,

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you've got this Paleolithic camp thing.

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You have that base layer of genetics.

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You also have deep honor group friendships that are built over,

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not just a few interactions,

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but,

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Over a lifetime, right?

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Of a ledger of record that at the end of your life, you prize above almost all other things because it's so beautiful and majestic and it required so much time to create.

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And then if those things are healthy, the likelihood that your tribe, your coalition of these communities that are connected together, the likelihood that that is a good thing and a healthy thing, maybe net positive for human well-being and flourishing versus net negative, is much, much higher.

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And Bitcoin just protects all this.

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It's like the protocol that allows all of it to come full circle from the base layer on up.

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It's like a positive feedback loop.

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Yeah.

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And speaking of circles, I mean, is this the basis of the concentric circle moral theory where you can privilege that genetic base layer and the friendship groups that you have over the more distant types of groups as long as you don't do it to the extent that you begin to harm those groups?

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And then a Bitcoin then is going to enable a healthy interaction through these different levels so that we don harm others through our use of I guess bad ledgers in one sense Yeah no no totally It interesting because when you were talking about this previously Grant you mentioned something about you know utilitarian philosophy not being your bag

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Yeah, right.

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I totally agree.

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It's the challenge of writing a book, right, where you're trying to make an argument

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in multiple philosophical and scientific ways so you can reach the greatest audience possible.

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And it just so happens that Peter Singer's Expanding Circle was one of the most influential books on the evolution of ethics since the 1980s.

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Like it was just it was the one. Right. So I myself am more deontological, more principle based ethics myself.

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That's and consequentialist even. But framing it in a utilitarian argument, I actually I felt was a nice exercise.

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size. And yes, this is exactly that. It's instead of the concentric circle itself, it's the

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cryptographically protected concentric circle, right? So like it's proof of work

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protected concentric circle, which I think is what we've got to get towards as a species.

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So proof of work protected concentric circle, are you imagining the proof of work occurring

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metaphorically at different levels in different ways? Or are you talking like literally the proof

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of Bitcoin.

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Yeah, I think both work, right?

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I think it works as a metaphor

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and it works as literally

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what needs to happen

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to ensure that groups

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can actually exercise

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the principles of

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a face-to-face relationship

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without interference

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from some top-down system.

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Yeah.

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Are you perceived as crazy

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if you bring up

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Jason Lowery's software thesis

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in academic circles,

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mainstream academic circles,

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evolutionary anthropology,

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or just has no one heard of it?

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Like what's the reception, I guess?

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Oh man, Grant, it's too new.

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I mean, even Bitcoin itself,

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you know, I think it's just too,

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it's too novel a concept right now

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for mainstream academia,

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for it to be something that is like

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addressed by a majority of the thinkers in the space.

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I've met a few,

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But it is something like Jason Lowry's thesis. I think it will be decades before it's appreciated at the scale that it likely should deserve to be appreciated at.

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And Bitcoin, here's another thing, you know, I'll choose my words thoughtfully here, but academia is an institution that will say it's an old institution.

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It's an established institution.

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And it's benefited a lot and it's been cultivated and it's grown a lot from the state system.

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It is dependent in many sort of critical ways on the state system. So it makes sense that it wouldn't be sort of opening Bitcoin or network state theory with open arms in so much that it's those things are not so much a threat, but they are the off ramps to the to the old system.

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And so it makes sense that a lot of people would simply dismiss it without a lot of thought in academia.

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Is the story you tell where the trust paradox is kind of one of the drivers of human evolution, especially considering that we're social species, is that much kind of a traditionally accepted evolutionary anthropological perspective that the problem of trust is core to how we've developed these different genetics, friendship, tribe as ways to keep surviving in the face of that or to resolve that paradox, that problem?

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Is that much traditional story?

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um it's a so a lot of people have thought about i would say altruism uh the evolution of altruism

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it's a major major area of research in evolutionary anthropology uh i took a lot of that base research

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and then tried to make a compelling narrative from it yeah and so that that that level of

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sort of talking about it in terms of levels and then the intersubjective belief scale there had

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been writers that had said things like it before but it was that that was sort of my contribution

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to the the theory itself i gotta just get one more question just to talk about software a bit

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more a key part of that for jason lowry is a description of abstract power hierarchies

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the point at which um i think we scale to the tribal level and then we're able to have the god

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king who can control people in this authoritarian way through maybe what you call the tyranny of the

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cousins but a way that they can exercise power that's not kinetic through almost a sort of

398
00:42:36,986 --> 00:42:43,146
symbolic mind control of the population is that present in mind uh lowry's description of the

399
00:42:43,146 --> 00:42:47,026
abstract power based hierarchy to the extent that you could discuss in the context of what you're

400
00:42:47,026 --> 00:42:55,566
talking about could you maybe rephrase that for me though just give me another yeah so lowry has

401
00:42:55,566 --> 00:43:02,606
this idea that there are abstract power-based hierarchies that um we we evolved to a certain

402
00:43:02,606 --> 00:43:10,446
point where people begin to use abstract power instead of kinetic power but the the abstract

403
00:43:10,446 --> 00:43:17,586
power is always to a certain extent at the mercy of the kinetic power um but the abstract power

404
00:43:17,586 --> 00:43:23,306
is scalable more quickly and so it kind of outstrips the kinetic power and we get these

405
00:43:23,306 --> 00:43:35,066
God beings who can then organize vast societies around an ideology that people kind of subjugate themselves to because they believe themselves to fit into some sort of divine hierarchy or something like that.

406
00:43:35,586 --> 00:43:41,086
Maybe that's just a description of ideology in the context of your book that occurs at the tribal level.

407
00:43:41,086 --> 00:43:57,506
Yeah, no, no, no. Okay. So I don't think it's any accident that 300,000 years ago is when we see the first paleoanthropological evidence for the tribe drive scaling across our species. That's when anatomically modern humans come on the scene.

408
00:43:57,506 --> 00:44:02,386
incidentally it's when we first see the paleoanthropological evidence for us

409
00:44:02,386 --> 00:44:11,446
trading with thems we know that because the trade networks start going well beyond the home range of

410
00:44:11,446 --> 00:44:20,406
say 30 50 kilometers you start seeing signature um ochre paint from one type of rock that's 200

411
00:44:20,406 --> 00:44:27,306
kilometers away end up in a site 200 kilometers north so there's definitely an us versus them

412
00:44:27,306 --> 00:44:34,746
network and that's when you start to see what you're talking about i think at scale so when i

413
00:44:34,746 --> 00:44:43,866
think of the abstract power arcades i think around 300 000 years ago this is when you had enough

414
00:44:43,866 --> 00:44:52,706
symbolic capacity as homo sapiens to begin really leveraging this for survival and reproduction

415
00:44:52,706 --> 00:45:00,606
output. So remember we had cell A and we had cell B, right? Just simple adaptation. Cell A has a

416
00:45:00,606 --> 00:45:08,346
little bit of a thicker wall. Let's run with that same analogy. You have camp or band or tribe A,

417
00:45:08,346 --> 00:45:11,406
and you have camp, band, or tribe B.

418
00:45:12,466 --> 00:45:14,926
And because of natural selection,

419
00:45:15,386 --> 00:45:18,466
you have in camp A a predisposition.

420
00:45:18,686 --> 00:45:19,886
This is oversimplifying it,

421
00:45:19,906 --> 00:45:21,286
but you have a predisposition for, say,

422
00:45:21,346 --> 00:45:23,286
like a God gene or a spirit gene,

423
00:45:23,406 --> 00:45:24,186
something like this.

424
00:45:24,386 --> 00:45:26,306
Something that gives them a little bit more

425
00:45:26,306 --> 00:45:29,386
of an inclination to wield the symbolic

426
00:45:29,386 --> 00:45:33,706
in a way that coordinates the atoms in the cell

427
00:45:33,706 --> 00:45:39,206
in a way that maximizes control and predictability in its environment.

428
00:45:40,106 --> 00:45:47,606
And so imagine what happens once that capacity reaches critical mass in tribe A,

429
00:45:48,126 --> 00:45:50,426
and then it collides with tribe B.

430
00:45:52,286 --> 00:45:58,506
The adaptive benefits for tribe A being able to wield the abstract

431
00:45:58,506 --> 00:46:03,226
to coordinate human behavior is so obvious.

432
00:46:03,706 --> 00:46:09,686
Especially if you rob that capacity in one group of otherwise equally powered humans.

433
00:46:10,406 --> 00:46:18,666
One is like, you know, a rugby team that showed up for practice and they've been doing it for a week.

434
00:46:18,746 --> 00:46:26,466
The other is like the all blacks pulling off the haka before and like sending, you know, shivers of terror in their opponents.

435
00:46:26,466 --> 00:46:33,346
Because all the haka is, is this like execution of extreme coordination as power force projection.

436
00:46:33,706 --> 00:46:45,406
Right. And when I see and I when I see the power of, say, religion or ideology to co-op symbols at this level, it really is that what you're getting at.

437
00:46:45,406 --> 00:46:49,146
It's this it's this almost this deterrent power projection.

438
00:46:49,366 --> 00:46:52,486
It's saying these are the lots that we can summon.

439
00:46:52,606 --> 00:46:56,066
Yeah. As force projection for our coalition.

440
00:46:56,406 --> 00:46:58,486
You better not fuck with us. Yeah.

441
00:46:58,486 --> 00:47:23,506
And I think it's around 300,000 years ago at the advent of not only the coalitionary cognition of the tribe tribe, but of anatomically modern humans, where you start seeing the complexity of cultures virgin to the point where by the time 10,000 years ago rolls onto the scene and you get these stacks of calories everywhere being, you know, coalesced by these different groups.

442
00:47:23,506 --> 00:47:28,466
all the things that you need all the culture and all the biological adaptations that you need

443
00:47:28,466 --> 00:47:34,066
to just start dominating and creating empire all that all that raw materials there

444
00:47:34,066 --> 00:47:43,546
just waiting to be extracted by use of symbolic and kinetic energy yeah to organize and minimize

445
00:47:43,546 --> 00:47:51,206
entropy and therefore be able to impart greater greater direct power upon anything outside yeah

446
00:47:51,206 --> 00:48:10,926
Yeah. And so this is a question I actually have for you guys. So I wonder a lot about spirituality and about religion. And with that thought experiment that we just ran through, right?

447
00:48:10,926 --> 00:48:24,886
Do you think that's a plausible explanation for why we are the spiritual animals that we are? Or do you think there has to be, you know, something else?

448
00:48:24,886 --> 00:48:32,686
so the the question is i understand it is there an evolutionary reason why we're religious instead

449
00:48:32,686 --> 00:48:38,566
of a metaphysical reason why we're religious is it just the story of we evolved the capacity to

450
00:48:38,566 --> 00:48:43,866
be religious because it enables us to bind us together and makes us a stronger tribe to defeat

451
00:48:43,866 --> 00:48:49,686
other tribes and so those types of tribes tend to survive proliferate their genes or is there a

452
00:48:49,686 --> 00:48:55,626
corresponding metaphysical reality that justifies that impulse that we're religious because there is

453
00:48:55,626 --> 00:49:00,906
a god not we invent a god because that makes us more powerful and unites us and is that kind of

454
00:49:00,906 --> 00:49:06,906
the was that that's the gist that's the gist yeah yeah that's a big question i was like lucas go

455
00:49:06,906 --> 00:49:12,946
first so he can yeah i don't i don't think they're mutually exclusive i think there are evolutionary

456
00:49:12,946 --> 00:49:19,806
benefits to aligning behind religion. Um, just like you said, like it, you know, it brings people

457
00:49:19,806 --> 00:49:26,066
together. It gets them effectively just from a grand scale, it minimizes entropy and it directs

458
00:49:26,066 --> 00:49:32,526
power and directs energy towards a, towards a purpose. Um, but from the metaphysical side,

459
00:49:32,686 --> 00:49:40,326
anybody who's touched psychedelics is going to tell you that there's something bigger. Um,

460
00:49:40,326 --> 00:49:56,966
And you don't even have to do that, you know, meditation and, you know, even certain forms of vigorous exercise and fasting, you know, like there is for people who seek it by challenging.

461
00:49:56,966 --> 00:50:05,606
for people who seek it by being courageous enough to put themselves in a situation

462
00:50:05,606 --> 00:50:12,486
that may allow them, you know, whether that courage is to not eat for eight days or that

463
00:50:12,486 --> 00:50:19,666
courage is to sit in silence for 11 or that courage is to run 60 miles or that courage

464
00:50:19,666 --> 00:50:22,006
is to take six grams of psilocybin.

465
00:50:24,306 --> 00:50:28,526
Any of those things, if you're brave enough to do that,

466
00:50:28,586 --> 00:50:31,626
or if you're desperate enough to do that,

467
00:50:31,686 --> 00:50:37,146
if you're hurt enough spiritually that you seek relief,

468
00:50:37,566 --> 00:50:40,626
that you're willing to go down those paths,

469
00:50:41,446 --> 00:50:44,846
then I think that you are encountered

470
00:50:44,846 --> 00:50:53,886
with something that is greater than what appears in front of your eyes on a daily basis.

471
00:50:53,886 --> 00:50:57,386
I, yeah, I don't think that they're mutually exclusive.

472
00:50:57,606 --> 00:51:01,286
I think that one probably exists because of the other.

473
00:51:02,826 --> 00:51:10,446
But yeah, I, yeah, like I said, like I think anybody who's touched psychedelics is gonna

474
00:51:10,446 --> 00:51:14,186
is going to tell you that there's something bigger than me.

475
00:51:14,886 --> 00:51:16,126
So I don't know.

476
00:51:16,206 --> 00:51:18,706
Yeah, that would be my answer.

477
00:51:18,946 --> 00:51:20,866
I don't think you even have to touch psychedelics.

478
00:51:21,046 --> 00:51:25,946
I think anybody who is human recognizes at some point

479
00:51:25,946 --> 00:51:28,926
that they have a subjective viewpoint upon the world

480
00:51:28,926 --> 00:51:32,006
that is not reducible to any other fact about the world.

481
00:51:32,426 --> 00:51:35,326
This is Thomas Nagel's idea in his essay,

482
00:51:35,886 --> 00:51:37,686
what it is to be a bat, something like that,

483
00:51:37,686 --> 00:51:41,966
that there is a specific type of bat-like experience that is inaccessible to humans.

484
00:51:42,206 --> 00:51:48,186
But the other, the obverse to that is like every human's point of view is sui generis,

485
00:51:48,266 --> 00:51:49,546
is unique to them.

486
00:51:49,726 --> 00:51:55,826
It's not replicable in terms of mathematics or any sort of way

487
00:51:55,826 --> 00:51:58,106
because it's qualitative rather than quantitative.

488
00:51:58,966 --> 00:52:03,026
Humans bring a qualitative perception of the world to the world.

489
00:52:03,026 --> 00:52:06,006
And I just think that that, like the fire of consciousness,

490
00:52:06,006 --> 00:52:23,406
wherever that lights in evolutionary history, that's the religious moment, even though like the formalization of tribes as religions is like a sociological fact, that qualitative fact of the birth of consciousness, wherever that occurs, that's the divine moment.

491
00:52:23,406 --> 00:52:36,686
And I think we stimulate that with like psychedelics now because that like makes the subjective into this monistic experience where everything is united, like unites our subjectivity with an objectivity.

492
00:52:37,186 --> 00:52:39,426
And so we bring the divine and collapse it into ourself.

493
00:52:39,506 --> 00:52:40,186
Yeah, a oneness.

494
00:52:40,326 --> 00:52:40,486
Right.

495
00:52:40,846 --> 00:52:41,926
But that's yeah.

496
00:52:42,606 --> 00:52:44,526
No, that is gorgeous, guys.

497
00:52:44,606 --> 00:52:46,126
This is super well put.

498
00:52:46,726 --> 00:52:47,486
You got to answer the question.

499
00:52:47,966 --> 00:52:49,446
We want to hear it with us too.

500
00:52:49,446 --> 00:52:55,246
Hey, there's a ton of overlap in our perspective, actually.

501
00:52:55,966 --> 00:53:06,786
And it's interesting because this was something I could not wait to talk about when I was watching you guys sort of attempt to disentangle perhaps where my starting assumptions were.

502
00:53:06,966 --> 00:53:16,066
Like in a book like Our Tribal Future, you kind of have to bring the scientific reductionist to the table when you're writing about this stuff.

503
00:53:16,066 --> 00:53:24,226
But you guys, you caught the breadcrumbs when I think, Grant, you were like, yeah, he talks about psilocybin a little bit.

504
00:53:25,486 --> 00:53:30,966
And it's a very important, I would say, milestone in my life.

505
00:53:30,966 --> 00:53:45,106
One of all things, my fundamentalist father of 25 years was the one who encouraged me to take psilocybin because on one of his, he loves ancient Roman history.

506
00:53:45,506 --> 00:53:48,546
And his favorite Roman emperor is Hadrian.

507
00:53:49,206 --> 00:53:50,786
And Hadrian was a Grecofile.

508
00:53:50,946 --> 00:53:54,766
And he participated in what's called the ancient Eleusinian mysteries.

509
00:53:55,546 --> 00:53:59,426
And my dad admired Hadrian so much.

510
00:53:59,426 --> 00:54:03,006
he actually did mushrooms without my knowledge at all.

511
00:54:03,186 --> 00:54:04,326
And then he called me up and said,

512
00:54:04,386 --> 00:54:06,826
David, I have something that you have to try.

513
00:54:07,386 --> 00:54:08,426
And I was like, super.

514
00:54:08,746 --> 00:54:10,486
I hadn't looked into it at all.

515
00:54:10,566 --> 00:54:11,766
This is back in 2017.

516
00:54:12,506 --> 00:54:14,126
Hadn't looked into it at all.

517
00:54:14,606 --> 00:54:17,006
And this is when I got my job at the University of Toronto.

518
00:54:17,006 --> 00:54:19,386
I was like, oh, this is a perfect milestone.

519
00:54:19,566 --> 00:54:21,226
There's a turning of the page, you know?

520
00:54:21,466 --> 00:54:23,526
I think I'm going to give this a shot,

521
00:54:23,606 --> 00:54:25,746
especially after looking at all the John Hopkins studies

522
00:54:25,746 --> 00:54:31,386
that showed so many psychological benefits.

523
00:54:32,506 --> 00:54:36,966
And so I took that five grams and it,

524
00:54:37,346 --> 00:54:39,746
without going into extreme detail,

525
00:54:40,146 --> 00:54:43,546
it obliterated my scientific reductionism, that's for sure.

526
00:54:45,066 --> 00:54:47,906
It was an alternate form of consciousness.

527
00:54:47,906 --> 00:54:51,826
And I realized if consciousness,

528
00:54:51,826 --> 00:55:00,046
this if my base starting first principles assumption about reality are this wrong what

529
00:55:00,046 --> 00:55:11,266
else am i wrong about and it just it just like a lightning bolt cleared my system of the epistemic

530
00:55:11,266 --> 00:55:19,126
hubris that had been sort of baked into it by years of education and getting your phd thinking

531
00:55:19,126 --> 00:55:25,366
you know something and then all of a sudden you're you're like oh wait i was so so fundamentally

532
00:55:25,366 --> 00:55:35,226
in the dark about this component of reality and so that was that was a major eye-opening experience

533
00:55:35,226 --> 00:55:42,906
for me and it married i think the the kinds of concepts that you both are talking about together

534
00:55:42,906 --> 00:56:04,126
to where at one point beforehand, I would have thought, well, Tribe A, clearly religion, religiosity and spirituality is the outcropping, an emergent property of Tribe A defeating Tribe B over space time in East Africa, running a thousand simulations over and over again.

535
00:56:04,126 --> 00:56:09,506
And then after that, it very much all of a sudden opened up.

536
00:56:09,626 --> 00:56:11,186
Well, it's not mutually exclusive.

537
00:56:11,186 --> 00:56:18,066
these things can totally be um they can they can be happening at the same time

538
00:56:18,066 --> 00:56:24,906
and i should just be a little bit more humble about it and sort of uh go in eyes open and this

539
00:56:24,906 --> 00:56:31,266
brings me to another another interesting um point that you brought up grant in the last podcast and

540
00:56:31,266 --> 00:56:38,226
that's um what kind of what what kind of uh if you're trying to camp craft yeah what kind of

541
00:56:38,226 --> 00:56:45,306
systems do you use to instill an identity amongst your camp crafters or your group,

542
00:56:45,406 --> 00:56:51,186
whatever group you care about, whatever group you want to help improve and be a part of.

543
00:56:52,446 --> 00:56:58,626
So my, you know, talking about a psilocybin experience is a deeply personal thing,

544
00:56:58,646 --> 00:56:59,846
as you guys probably know.

545
00:57:00,386 --> 00:57:01,606
Well, I'll just say this.

546
00:57:01,606 --> 00:57:10,726
there was a field season in Guadalajara, Mexico, where I got to work with the Huichal. They're

547
00:57:10,726 --> 00:57:17,686
called the Viveratica. They're the peyote people, more colloquially. And I mean, you go up and I

548
00:57:17,686 --> 00:57:24,426
just had this, my first experience, and you go up into this super high altitude drive, eight,

549
00:57:24,426 --> 00:57:33,946
But eight, it was like an eight-hour drive from Mexico City through cartel country to get up there because that's where these people survived.

550
00:57:33,946 --> 00:57:42,546
You survived whenever you got, you know, you had Spanish come in and any indigenous people that weren't conquered immediately go up.

551
00:57:43,626 --> 00:57:43,806
Yeah.

552
00:57:44,146 --> 00:57:45,166
Lucas, were you going to say something?

553
00:57:45,166 --> 00:57:54,826
I was just these are the people that it was like, this is how I think this is how psychedelics came into the American mainstream consciousness.

554
00:57:54,826 --> 00:58:00,046
Right. Aren't these the people that it was like in 1956 something?

555
00:58:00,226 --> 00:58:05,266
I don't know. Some maybe like banker or something from New York City went there and had the experience.

556
00:58:05,266 --> 00:58:09,706
And then there was an article written about him and like Time magazine or something like that.

557
00:58:09,746 --> 00:58:11,486
I think that's these people. Right.

558
00:58:11,486 --> 00:58:14,686
Yeah, it might be. I think that's right.

559
00:58:15,166 --> 00:58:19,386
And it wouldn't surprise me at all because, you know, they have they have.

560
00:58:19,386 --> 00:58:22,706
So the reason I'm bringing this up is because they have this beautiful syncretism.

561
00:58:23,506 --> 00:58:27,586
The term syncretism just means it has co-opted.

562
00:58:28,066 --> 00:58:32,486
It's a co-option of different ideologies into a new emergent ideology.

563
00:58:33,126 --> 00:58:35,566
And humans just automatically do this.

564
00:58:35,886 --> 00:58:36,006
Yeah.

565
00:58:36,426 --> 00:58:43,866
Anytime there is intersubjective belief networks that have any prolonged contact, syncretism occurs as an outcropping.

566
00:58:44,246 --> 00:58:44,426
Right.

567
00:58:44,426 --> 00:58:47,006
and they're a perfect example

568
00:58:47,006 --> 00:58:48,246
so the Huichal

569
00:58:48,246 --> 00:58:50,886
they are peyote people

570
00:58:50,886 --> 00:58:53,066
the Mata Akame

571
00:58:53,066 --> 00:58:53,886
the shaman

572
00:58:53,886 --> 00:58:57,286
he is a very

573
00:58:57,286 --> 00:58:59,166
he, I want to say

574
00:58:59,166 --> 00:59:01,286
he or she but it's actually almost always

575
00:59:01,286 --> 00:59:02,946
a he, he is a

576
00:59:02,946 --> 00:59:05,306
very important component

577
00:59:05,306 --> 00:59:07,326
of their day to day

578
00:59:07,326 --> 00:59:08,966
camp life but even more so

579
00:59:08,966 --> 00:59:11,006
as a sort of a kind of

580
00:59:11,006 --> 00:59:13,466
community aligner

581
00:59:13,466 --> 00:59:18,846
when somebody does when somebody's going through a major change in their life or if they've done

582
00:59:18,846 --> 00:59:24,786
something wrong the way they make amends is they go on the peyote deer hunt and so you go with the

583
00:59:24,786 --> 00:59:30,486
it's usually a group of eight to twelve and it's a 40 mile hike through the desert at the very end

584
00:59:30,486 --> 00:59:35,866
you shoot an arrow symbolically because there's no more deer there but they back in the day it was

585
00:59:35,866 --> 00:59:42,666
a deer hunt but they shoot the arrow into the peyote they gather it and then they all take peyote

586
00:59:42,666 --> 00:59:47,966
around the fire everyone's vision is sort of like whatever it doesn't have much spiritual weight but

587
00:59:47,966 --> 00:59:55,506
the vision of the marakame is sort of interpretive of what the group needs to do to like get better

588
00:59:55,506 --> 01:00:03,946
right and so i this was the culture i'd been around for a while and one of the the um artifacts i took

589
01:00:03,946 --> 01:00:11,986
back with me was the god's eye and it's a cross it's straight up a christian cross but it's got

590
01:00:11,986 --> 01:00:18,566
little points of different colored cloth on the tips of the cross. And then in the center,

591
01:00:18,726 --> 01:00:24,466
it's diamonds, concentric diamonds that have different meanings. So like the Tatevari,

592
01:00:24,626 --> 01:00:30,226
the grandfather fire, meaning wherever you have the grandfather fire, you're home. And so it means

593
01:00:30,226 --> 01:00:36,246
that a Huachal can summon their home anytime they make a grandfather fire. And then there's light

594
01:00:36,246 --> 01:00:41,786
and dark and other elements that encircle the center of this cross.

595
01:00:42,146 --> 01:00:45,246
I got one of these just because I thought it was really, really cool.

596
01:00:46,106 --> 01:00:52,506
And then I find myself a few years later in the Chihuahuan Desert with two of my honor group.

597
01:00:53,586 --> 01:00:58,106
And I'm, you know, six grams of psilocybin in.

598
01:00:58,486 --> 01:01:01,366
I'm literally surfing the desert at this point.

599
01:01:01,366 --> 01:01:08,406
and I'd been, I'd held the God's eye in my left hand from the very beginning.

600
01:01:08,686 --> 01:01:10,426
I just don't know why.

601
01:01:10,606 --> 01:01:13,786
It was just sort of like something I was compelled to do.

602
01:01:13,866 --> 01:01:17,686
I felt like there was a deep meaning and resonance to this item.

603
01:01:18,306 --> 01:01:25,686
And at the, at, at a peak moment, it just beams up right in front of me.

604
01:01:25,686 --> 01:01:31,146
And I felt like this beam of energy smoked me into the ground and I hit the ground.

605
01:01:31,366 --> 01:01:39,126
and I just heard uh I the main one question that I'd been trying to figure out is like

606
01:01:39,126 --> 01:01:44,366
how how do I how do I communicate how do I communicate

607
01:01:44,366 --> 01:01:52,726
the message of the tribe drive to help fulfill people's lives how do I communicate cat crafting

608
01:01:52,726 --> 01:01:59,506
like how do you do that how do you use it what's the magic incantation to help people realize what

609
01:01:59,506 --> 01:02:07,426
that is and i just heard in my mind like i was on the ground totally prostrate and it was

610
01:02:07,426 --> 01:02:19,546
service is not slavery it's it's it's beauty and to this day that item the reason i bring this up

611
01:02:19,546 --> 01:02:26,586
grant this this item like holds an it is one of my most precious items i whenever i'm riding it's

612
01:02:26,586 --> 01:02:34,946
right there beaming on me right and that i've integrated into a lot of the rituals that our

613
01:02:34,946 --> 01:02:42,186
camp has together and that is what i mean by uh syncretism yeah being a very powerful way

614
01:02:42,186 --> 01:02:48,266
especially in the context of co-creation yeah so it's it's not just me like coming up with a ritual

615
01:02:48,266 --> 01:02:55,906
it's a co-creation right and that act of co-creation invests people's identity into the

616
01:02:55,906 --> 01:03:02,186
ritual itself and and it has this really massive leveraging component to it psychologically yeah

617
01:03:02,186 --> 01:03:06,866
that that idea of syncretism really does address one of the not a concern but just one of the things

618
01:03:06,866 --> 01:03:11,926
as we were zuka and i were talking to that i brought up that it can seem like a pillaging of

619
01:03:11,926 --> 01:03:18,066
other traditions to just draw strange and esoteric symbols from them as if the very fact that they

620
01:03:18,066 --> 01:03:24,446
were esoteric and exotic was some way going to make us richer but not as just the practice of

621
01:03:24,446 --> 01:03:29,146
syncretism as incorporating them into your own developing faith and having

622
01:03:29,146 --> 01:03:32,326
powerful first person experiences with those things.

623
01:03:32,626 --> 01:03:33,846
I mean, that makes perfect sense.

624
01:03:34,046 --> 01:03:36,166
And it's such a beautiful sentiment.

625
01:03:36,326 --> 01:03:37,946
And I wonder if you could build from that.

626
01:03:38,106 --> 01:03:41,426
What about service is not slavery?

627
01:03:41,426 --> 01:03:44,126
Could you, I guess, repeat that phrase?

628
01:03:44,186 --> 01:03:47,326
And then how does that describe camp crafting for you?

629
01:03:47,906 --> 01:03:48,826
Let's go from that.

630
01:03:49,566 --> 01:03:52,086
Well, so if you've ever done, and this is funny,

631
01:03:52,086 --> 01:04:06,366
And I really want to get Lucas's perspective also on how he served at the network school, because when when both those talks, Lucas, independently afterwards.

632
01:04:06,366 --> 01:04:10,666
And I had I had a slide up there with like Gandalf and Aragorn.

633
01:04:10,886 --> 01:04:14,366
And I was like, I know who Aragorn is like that's Balaji.

634
01:04:14,826 --> 01:04:15,066
Right.

635
01:04:15,366 --> 01:04:17,106
It's like you guys have a shaman.

636
01:04:17,406 --> 01:04:21,306
Do you guys like have anybody concerned about sort of the spiritual health of your group?

637
01:04:21,306 --> 01:04:28,366
You know, maybe like when you put on the network school t-shirt or something, there's somebody there to be like, this is important and special.

638
01:04:29,646 --> 01:04:33,426
And independently, they came to me and they're like, okay, so this is Guy Lucas.

639
01:04:34,126 --> 01:04:37,026
And it happened multiple times.

640
01:04:37,146 --> 01:04:45,686
So that was one of the reasons I was super excited about meeting you and continuing the conversation further.

641
01:04:46,286 --> 01:04:50,626
And so to get to your point, yeah, the...

642
01:04:51,306 --> 01:04:54,446
It's co-creation and camp crafting is hard work.

643
01:04:54,686 --> 01:04:57,346
It's what I call it's human work, right?

644
01:04:57,386 --> 01:04:58,366
It's human work.

645
01:04:58,706 --> 01:05:07,606
There's never a day off in especially the first year of our camp when we were really co-located and just trying to figure out the nuts and bolts of it all.

646
01:05:07,786 --> 01:05:12,626
I mean, the number of just like camp meetings you have, it's a lot.

647
01:05:12,866 --> 01:05:15,226
And you have to negotiate through a lot.

648
01:05:15,446 --> 01:05:19,826
And then a creation of a good ritual, that's hard work, right?

649
01:05:19,866 --> 01:05:21,126
That is like service.

650
01:05:21,306 --> 01:05:22,426
That's true service.

651
01:05:23,426 --> 01:05:25,706
But it's so meaningful and rewarding.

652
01:05:26,986 --> 01:05:37,486
Right now, my wife and I are, we will often, you know, when you kind of like, there's a little bit of silence for a while and you fall back on some themes that you've been exploring together.

653
01:05:37,766 --> 01:05:45,626
We'll fall back on, well, now we have a two-year-old and we found out last week we're going to have another boy coming in April as well.

654
01:05:46,086 --> 01:05:46,386
Nice.

655
01:05:46,386 --> 01:06:05,126
And, you know, it's one of the things that we cannot wait to do as an act of service is a coming of age ceremony to create one, not not just rely on, you know, other previous traditions of it, but to really let them know that now you are an adult of our camp.

656
01:06:05,626 --> 01:06:07,066
And that means something.

657
01:06:07,146 --> 01:06:09,866
There's a now you're in a new life history stage.

658
01:06:10,106 --> 01:06:12,906
You're now a functioning member of our group.

659
01:06:12,926 --> 01:06:14,986
And that comes with great power, great responsibility.

660
01:06:14,986 --> 01:06:30,306
My wife, who is Southeast Asian, when she came here to Canada and as she she grew up, her parents, they didn't have any equivalent for, you know, like a sweet 16.

661
01:06:30,706 --> 01:06:35,426
And unfortunately, the sweet 16 is sort of died off as a practice in North America.

662
01:06:36,206 --> 01:06:42,926
And she was like, you know, I I didn't even know when I was a woman from a girl.

663
01:06:42,926 --> 01:06:48,886
It was just like all of a sudden one day guys are spending more, they're paying more attention to me.

664
01:06:49,066 --> 01:06:54,946
And there's like a signal to their attention that I'm starting to understand, but still is strange.

665
01:06:55,866 --> 01:07:10,486
And so she was like, I would, I cannot wait to create something with the camp, with the group that signifies that, look, you're going from girl to woman now.

666
01:07:10,586 --> 01:07:12,326
Or you're going from boy to man.

667
01:07:12,326 --> 01:07:24,546
Something like that, right? Where you're actually, the act of service is creating the foundation by which you can pour your identity into the group.

668
01:07:24,546 --> 01:07:32,366
yeah i just kind of reflected on that that

669
01:07:32,366 --> 01:07:42,186
thinking about for myself i don't think i had really like a defining kind of coming of age i

670
01:07:42,186 --> 01:07:48,506
think for a lot of guys it's like um their dad gives them a beer that's like now you know okay

671
01:07:48,506 --> 01:07:56,046
you can drink with me now. Now we're equals. Um, that wasn't mine. Um, I don't know. Yeah.

672
01:07:56,146 --> 01:08:00,586
The quinceanera is on the rise. Um, there's a lot of those, you know, you see, you see a lot of those

673
01:08:00,586 --> 01:08:05,586
around. And it's almost like legalistic. Now you get your driver's license, you get the right to

674
01:08:05,586 --> 01:08:11,786
vote. It's like these legal things that demarcate you as a citizen, but it isn't a coming into

675
01:08:11,786 --> 01:08:17,426
manhood or a reception of yourself as like, you know, something more than a legal object or

676
01:08:17,426 --> 01:08:21,286
something like which is why we're struggling so much because nobody's driving anymore and nobody

677
01:08:21,286 --> 01:08:28,386
votes like young people don't vote and people you know young fewer people are waiting longer and

678
01:08:28,386 --> 01:08:36,185
longer to get a driver's license or just not doing it at all yeah um to go back okay so to talk about

679
01:08:36,185 --> 01:08:43,946
the network school um i i wanted to yeah i i'm glad you brought that up um the air because i wasn't

680
01:08:43,946 --> 01:08:52,766
sure of like, when you spoke at the network school, seven people reached out to me independently.

681
01:08:54,846 --> 01:09:01,026
Jake and Juba and Monasa and Jackson, and I can't remember who else, but all of these

682
01:09:01,026 --> 01:09:06,185
individuals, and they all said the exact same thing about the, you know, the shaman. And I was

683
01:09:06,185 --> 01:09:12,826
really, you know, obviously really honored. That's really just like I got, when you were talking

684
01:09:12,826 --> 01:09:21,286
about it just now i got chills just thinking about those people um but um i hadn't understood

685
01:09:21,286 --> 01:09:27,586
any of the other roles so you apparently so there's a you're talking about gandalf and and

686
01:09:27,586 --> 01:09:35,426
aragon are there other are there other so uh there's like the hunter is that kind of what he

687
01:09:35,426 --> 01:09:45,246
is uh or the i would i would use form you know for for a say the hadsa for example there there would

688
01:09:45,246 --> 01:09:56,145
be leadership is is strong a strong word because it's a it's leadership based on

689
01:09:56,145 --> 01:10:05,006
not it's basically prestige hierarchy like in what context is this person the most reliable

690
01:10:05,006 --> 01:10:11,806
for this thing and it can oftentimes that can move it can be a moving target um but it's almost

691
01:10:11,806 --> 01:10:19,086
never in the context of hunter-gatherers almost never by dominance or trying to overtly exert

692
01:10:19,086 --> 01:10:28,626
power now on the other hand though you do have a a shaman which is i define a shaman as a pro-social

693
01:10:28,626 --> 01:10:36,466
force a pro-social mediator of the spiritual health of the community uh a witch would be the

694
01:10:36,466 --> 01:10:42,105
inverse of that okay a witch or a wizard which uses their powers for malevolence which totally

695
01:10:42,105 --> 01:10:47,406
happens trust me it totally happens because you can weaponize anything you can weaponize

696
01:10:47,406 --> 01:10:53,766
spirituality um very easily especially since it really taps in deeply into the human psyche so

697
01:10:53,766 --> 01:11:00,586
So even if it's not objectively real, it can have objective effects on people through power of placebo and nocebo.

698
01:11:01,266 --> 01:11:02,026
So, yeah.

699
01:11:02,886 --> 01:11:09,726
So there's this intersection of like your approach to camp crafting and the network school, network state.

700
01:11:09,726 --> 01:11:12,206
I mean, they're the same thing.

701
01:11:12,786 --> 01:11:18,386
It's like, you know, we're going to get together with an intentional community, people that have the same values.

702
01:11:18,386 --> 01:11:30,065
um what so do you feel that spirituality or maybe not religion but some some form of like

703
01:11:30,065 --> 01:11:39,185
spirituality is vital to the success of of that type of an organism or you know that that type of

704
01:11:39,185 --> 01:11:49,406
a group of people because I, I think, I think it is. I think that, I think that, um, you know,

705
01:11:49,406 --> 01:11:56,406
if, if I create a, if I create a camp, then I think, you know, psychedelics or spirituality or

706
01:11:56,406 --> 01:12:05,065
pursuit of, um, just pursuit of peace, I think, um, of, you know, psychological peace, I think is,

707
01:12:05,065 --> 01:12:11,065
vital in order to keep that together. But what role do you see that playing in,

708
01:12:11,065 --> 01:12:17,726
in the success and failure of, because you've, you've studied a lot of these different groups.

709
01:12:18,806 --> 01:12:26,086
Yeah. So it depends, I think, on how we define spirituality. Is it, is the act of say,

710
01:12:26,306 --> 01:12:34,406
coming together in a circle that's lit by firelight, where we all come and we focus our

711
01:12:34,406 --> 01:12:40,306
energy on one thing, utter a few shared words together, like, is that inherently spiritual?

712
01:12:41,105 --> 01:12:45,926
And if that's, if that's the, if it's the affirmative, then yes, it's a prerequisite,

713
01:12:46,546 --> 01:12:46,866
right?

714
01:12:50,086 --> 01:12:51,565
Anything beyond that though?

715
01:12:51,626 --> 01:12:52,846
I'm, I don't know.

716
01:12:52,846 --> 01:13:01,826
I'm, I'm open, but would you need say a religious scaffolding as a requirement for a, I guess

717
01:13:01,826 --> 01:13:04,446
for a network school or a network state to survive?

718
01:13:06,025 --> 01:13:07,985
I don't think so.

719
01:13:08,105 --> 01:13:10,826
I think you would just need a strong identity.

720
01:13:11,366 --> 01:13:14,126
But here's where it gets really hard to disentangle

721
01:13:14,126 --> 01:13:17,065
is a lot of the ways that you make a strong identity

722
01:13:17,065 --> 01:13:20,706
rely on things that are inherently have been ways

723
01:13:20,706 --> 01:13:22,166
that you communicate spirituality.

724
01:13:23,025 --> 01:13:25,065
So a ritual is like a standard,

725
01:13:25,226 --> 01:13:27,386
it's a way to standardize the norms

726
01:13:27,386 --> 01:13:33,406
and the sacred symbols of your group across the population.

727
01:13:34,466 --> 01:13:36,426
That you have to have.

728
01:13:36,906 --> 01:13:41,086
You won't have a good thriving group without that.

729
01:13:41,586 --> 01:13:44,565
So when I think about this in the context of the network school,

730
01:13:44,985 --> 01:13:48,926
it doesn't have to be mass on Sunday.

731
01:13:49,326 --> 01:13:51,586
It can be something pretty modest.

732
01:13:51,586 --> 01:14:01,766
I love the fact that the network school is boiled down into very simple sacred values, the learn, burn, earn, right?

733
01:14:02,065 --> 01:14:03,826
So simple, so easy to communicate.

734
01:14:04,326 --> 01:14:06,105
Those are the values that we adhere to.

735
01:14:06,306 --> 01:14:10,586
And at least one of them can be done and levered communally.

736
01:14:11,226 --> 01:14:13,525
This is something that Jackson and I talked about at some length.

737
01:14:14,006 --> 01:14:15,586
The fact that you've got the burn component.

738
01:14:15,586 --> 01:14:22,565
component physically doing hard things with a group of strangers will bring you closer to them

739
01:14:22,565 --> 01:14:30,006
what if you can just introduce a little ritual to it right like now we're doing you you you create a

740
01:14:30,006 --> 01:14:38,386
spiritual scaffolding to some of these events then you're you're on to something um where i think it

741
01:14:38,386 --> 01:14:43,985
could probably benefit the most is as far as and i don't i don't know what when you went lucas but

742
01:14:43,985 --> 01:14:49,426
When I was there, there was about 250 people in that month's cohort.

743
01:14:50,006 --> 01:14:50,426
Okay.

744
01:14:50,766 --> 01:14:54,025
And you've got sort of like two tiers.

745
01:14:54,406 --> 01:15:00,985
You've got the long-termers and then the people who are like experimenting and floating in, maybe floating in and out.

746
01:15:00,985 --> 01:15:23,811
Right And so I think that thinking back on it after I had some time to reflect the moment that you go from someone who bouncing in to a long termer I think that a super important and crucial decision to like say oh I actually gonna invest some of myself into this project

747
01:15:24,211 --> 01:15:26,412
this network school, potentially network state project.

748
01:15:26,832 --> 01:15:30,932
At that moment, having a spiritually laced ritual

749
01:15:30,932 --> 01:15:35,971
of some kind that standardize the values

750
01:15:35,971 --> 01:15:37,011
and the symbols of the group,

751
01:15:37,372 --> 01:15:39,452
that's when you can introduce it.

752
01:15:39,912 --> 01:15:41,952
And that's when it would probably have its most power

753
01:15:41,952 --> 01:15:50,651
Because you need to have that moment where you're them until you're an us.

754
01:15:50,792 --> 01:15:53,511
But you need something to let you know that you're an us.

755
01:15:54,171 --> 01:16:00,471
And oftentimes what that ends up manifesting as is something very, very spiritual, to your point.

756
01:16:01,531 --> 01:16:01,771
Yeah.

757
01:16:02,111 --> 01:16:07,892
So I was there at the beginning of V2, so March 1.

758
01:16:08,252 --> 01:16:11,332
And then I left like six days before you got there.

759
01:16:11,952 --> 01:16:13,491
Oh, man, no way.

760
01:16:13,892 --> 01:16:14,131
Yeah.

761
01:16:14,271 --> 01:16:18,031
So my grandmother went into hospice and my dad wasn't doing it.

762
01:16:18,131 --> 01:16:18,231
Right.

763
01:16:18,292 --> 01:16:19,511
So I came back to the state.

764
01:16:20,771 --> 01:16:20,892
Yeah.

765
01:16:20,952 --> 01:16:23,332
So I literally I was I was really bummed out about that.

766
01:16:23,332 --> 01:16:26,311
The long term program, you're right.

767
01:16:26,511 --> 01:16:32,191
Like it created such a cohesiveness and such a.

768
01:16:33,651 --> 01:16:39,511
Really like an in group, it created an in group within the group of network school people.

769
01:16:40,292 --> 01:16:41,771
That was really important.

770
01:16:41,952 --> 01:16:49,171
talking about the kind of the spiritual aspect of doing hard things together.

771
01:16:49,171 --> 01:16:53,852
I've been thinking about this just kind of in my own, uh,

772
01:16:54,471 --> 01:17:00,511
with the way that I look at the world right now. And I think that the,

773
01:17:00,511 --> 01:17:05,531
I think we're kind of seeing like a rise of individual type sports,

774
01:17:05,531 --> 01:17:15,571
rock climbing, mountain biking, you know, weight, powerlifting, weightlifting, CrossFit, you know,

775
01:17:15,631 --> 01:17:24,832
these are all like very individual things. And when I think about, like you think about

776
01:17:24,832 --> 01:17:31,792
the power of team sports and then the, all of the rituals that are involved in football,

777
01:17:31,792 --> 01:17:33,311
There's the hub, right?

778
01:17:34,051 --> 01:17:39,792
You know, and there's, you know, you clap and you break and you're swaying on the sidelines.

779
01:17:40,631 --> 01:17:48,792
You know, all of these little things that are just like these little tokens and these little symbols of togetherness and spiritualness.

780
01:17:49,771 --> 01:17:55,332
I genuinely worry about that because I think about, I got into weightlifting.

781
01:17:55,471 --> 01:17:56,452
I really loved it.

782
01:17:56,971 --> 01:17:58,471
And I thought it was great.

783
01:17:58,471 --> 01:18:05,292
But the thing about weightlifting is that when you have a bad day, you have a bad day.

784
01:18:05,471 --> 01:18:11,131
But when you're playing baseball or you're playing basketball, you can have a bad day and still win.

785
01:18:11,471 --> 01:18:22,912
And that can be really, that can really change your view of yourself where you understand that, yes, there is a greater purpose.

786
01:18:22,932 --> 01:18:25,671
And the greater purpose is to come together and win.

787
01:18:25,671 --> 01:18:29,971
And if I had a bad day and we won, did I actually have a bad day?

788
01:18:30,071 --> 01:18:31,051
I didn't.

789
01:18:31,211 --> 01:18:33,551
You know, like we accomplished something together.

790
01:18:33,752 --> 01:18:46,352
So I'm really happy to see like at the network school, there's a growing cohort of like basketball players and soccer where we have this team sport approach.

791
01:18:46,352 --> 01:19:08,731
That's interesting, I think, that you can find kind of a spiritual aspect in that that you think maybe doesn't require religion, maybe doesn't require to have a joint Christianity or something like that.

792
01:19:08,731 --> 01:19:15,731
Yeah, to that point, one of my most precious things,

793
01:19:16,352 --> 01:19:23,432
social networks is a we'll call it anthropologically a sodality it's basically just a club of best

794
01:19:23,432 --> 01:19:32,752
friends that have known each other for in some instances um over three decades so it it started

795
01:19:32,752 --> 01:19:40,671
originally in the church and we had this like cauldron of top-down authoritarian system and we

796
01:19:40,671 --> 01:19:46,252
rebelled against it and that that pressure we didn't like at the time but i'm so grateful for

797
01:19:46,252 --> 01:19:53,571
that pressure because it forged this in-group bond that has transcended like space time and we

798
01:19:53,571 --> 01:20:00,872
started using syncretism to leverage our own little in-group identity we had nickname we have

799
01:20:00,872 --> 01:20:07,211
nicknames we had rituals we had induction like it's all i look back at it i'm like god we were

800
01:20:07,211 --> 01:20:14,372
just dumb little apes going through the program that was already baked into our dna like this is

801
01:20:14,372 --> 01:20:16,392
how we figure out how to become

802
01:20:16,392 --> 01:20:17,771
from boys to men.

803
01:20:18,491 --> 01:20:20,491
And the attraction of

804
01:20:20,491 --> 01:20:22,412
the bonds that we

805
01:20:22,412 --> 01:20:24,231
had has grown into

806
01:20:24,231 --> 01:20:25,951
something super beautiful.

807
01:20:26,171 --> 01:20:28,332
It's like one of my most prized

808
01:20:28,332 --> 01:20:30,252
social possessions now. Every

809
01:20:30,252 --> 01:20:32,491
year we get together and

810
01:20:32,491 --> 01:20:34,211
we go out to a...

811
01:20:34,211 --> 01:20:36,091
Depends on what the year is and

812
01:20:36,091 --> 01:20:38,271
who's running the show. But we have a club

813
01:20:38,271 --> 01:20:40,332
reunion and we're using

814
01:20:40,332 --> 01:20:42,171
all this stuff.

815
01:20:43,432 --> 01:20:43,731
And...

816
01:20:44,372 --> 01:20:48,731
And it's incredible how powerful it is.

817
01:20:48,811 --> 01:20:56,352
And it's incredible how desperate, especially men are, to find something like this.

818
01:20:56,932 --> 01:21:08,011
I know for a fact, like, multiple guys in our group have reached out to me independently and been like, you know, if it wasn't for this group, I might have killed myself.

819
01:21:08,011 --> 01:21:11,731
Like, I just, there was just something, there was something going off and wrong.

820
01:21:11,731 --> 01:21:22,412
And then there was a hole that this filled just by way of going, you know, just being part of it. And it's really, really powerful.

821
01:21:22,412 --> 01:21:31,811
What about people that find themselves without that sodality or having lost it from their childhood or teenage years?

822
01:21:32,011 --> 01:21:36,951
Say that we dropped you into a random town, Kansas City, somewhere in the Midwest.

823
01:21:37,412 --> 01:21:43,711
You have in the United States, suburbia, anime, all of these like loneliness epidemic.

824
01:21:43,711 --> 01:21:52,591
What would you do to or how might one go about recreating a sodality or finding that if they had to be like, I'm missing this.

825
01:21:52,892 --> 01:21:53,951
I don't have it.

826
01:21:54,031 --> 01:21:55,611
I can't resurrect it necessarily.

827
01:21:55,852 --> 01:21:57,352
What steps did they take to get that?

828
01:21:58,151 --> 01:22:03,832
Gosh, now that I'm going to go back on all the things I said about syncretism and totally lean into what you were saying.

829
01:22:03,832 --> 01:22:09,991
If I were starting from scratch, I would totally leverage all the preexisting, the old, old system.

830
01:22:10,131 --> 01:22:12,832
I would probably start going to church immediately.

831
01:22:13,771 --> 01:22:18,392
If I had no community, what a great way to like bootstrap that function.

832
01:22:19,332 --> 01:22:21,352
So I would probably start going to church.

833
01:22:21,352 --> 01:22:37,252
I would look for any physical outlet I potentially could for to find a group of like minded guys that I could at least rely on to.

834
01:22:38,571 --> 01:22:41,252
To to be my sounding board.

835
01:22:41,352 --> 01:22:41,972
Yeah.

836
01:22:42,131 --> 01:22:47,091
Through the challenges of, you know, the life of a homo sapien.

837
01:22:47,091 --> 01:22:50,171
And this goes both ways, like male, female.

838
01:22:50,171 --> 01:22:52,091
It would be the exact same advice.

839
01:22:52,451 --> 01:22:53,932
It just might be a different pathway.

840
01:22:54,531 --> 01:22:58,571
But the end goal would be the same, to find a trusted network.

841
01:22:58,771 --> 01:23:08,392
And for guys, that's probably going to be something relatively along the lines of maybe a softball group or weightlifting together or something like that.

842
01:23:08,531 --> 01:23:10,191
Why BJJ is so popular.

843
01:23:10,651 --> 01:23:11,171
BJJ.

844
01:23:11,271 --> 01:23:13,252
Yeah, BJJ would be fantastic.

845
01:23:13,611 --> 01:23:16,511
Muay Thai, any sort of MMA.

846
01:23:16,511 --> 01:23:23,571
uh the one that the one that was it it almost overloaded my my friend's system it was so

847
01:23:23,571 --> 01:23:28,591
successful was the society for creative anachronism the medieval martial art yeah because it's got i

848
01:23:28,591 --> 01:23:33,531
mean if you've if you know anything about it when i went to my first pensick it's basically just

849
01:23:33,531 --> 01:23:38,731
the tribe drive on steroids the whole thing like you're set up in a medieval camp the medieval camp

850
01:23:38,731 --> 01:23:45,472
has you know all these flags denoting your your camp identity you just exercise the tribe drive

851
01:23:45,472 --> 01:23:48,771
for two weeks nonstop at this event called Penzik.

852
01:23:49,171 --> 01:23:53,752
20,000 people come, about 1,000 heavy fighters march on a field

853
01:23:53,752 --> 01:23:56,691
and beat the ever-living crap out of each other for three or four days.

854
01:23:57,412 --> 01:24:01,271
And it's just this really awesome exercise of ceremony, ritual,

855
01:24:02,111 --> 01:24:06,011
physical exertion, mental, spiritual challenge.

856
01:24:06,211 --> 01:24:09,731
And it makes, I mean, I just saw every year it's like just people

857
01:24:09,731 --> 01:24:11,991
just becoming best friends, best friends, best friends.

858
01:24:12,191 --> 01:24:14,011
It taps into their real lives.

859
01:24:14,011 --> 01:24:18,811
so much so that they many people dedicate their entire life to the sport as opposed to they call

860
01:24:18,811 --> 01:24:24,551
they call the actual real life that most of us enjoy day to day they call that mundane life

861
01:24:24,551 --> 01:24:32,412
there's an actual term for it um so yeah yeah it's no yeah that's i mean such excellent advice

862
01:24:32,412 --> 01:24:37,091
to find a pre-existing community or tradition church and then also to find a hard experience

863
01:24:37,091 --> 01:24:42,412
something physical as you were saying that i was thinking about another type of community that maybe

864
01:24:42,412 --> 01:24:47,972
some of our listeners you know we bitcoin study sessions we're bitcoiners a lot of us and that in

865
01:24:47,972 --> 01:24:52,631
itself is kind of an ideology now and it's something that if you are a bitcoiner for a

866
01:24:52,631 --> 01:24:57,071
certain amount of time people have passed through certain stages they may have had what you know

867
01:24:57,071 --> 01:25:01,252
like the shit coiner stage where they weren't focused they didn't understand bitcoin so they

868
01:25:01,252 --> 01:25:06,432
lost money gambling on different types of tokens and then they have the stage where they learn about

869
01:25:06,432 --> 01:25:11,131
the nature of the financial the monetary system then they have the stage and this is we talked to

870
01:25:11,131 --> 01:25:16,352
a guy named Sal Pineda. He's a Bitcoiner and he's really talking about how Bitcoiners need to

871
01:25:16,352 --> 01:25:21,892
be honest with the pain that they feel that underlies a lot of their motivation to get into

872
01:25:21,892 --> 01:25:27,151
Bitcoin, which is having been financially exploited by a system they don't understand.

873
01:25:27,372 --> 01:25:31,111
So it's like a shared communal sense of pain too that people are trying to redress and a

874
01:25:31,111 --> 01:25:34,731
redemption they're trying to seek. I don't know. That's beautiful. Yeah. I don't know if you think

875
01:25:34,731 --> 01:25:39,611
that like those types of ideological communities we kind of find in seemingly niche internet

876
01:25:39,611 --> 01:25:41,651
things can realize in

877
01:25:41,651 --> 01:25:42,731
meet space as well.

878
01:25:43,531 --> 01:25:45,691
I'll update what I said

879
01:25:45,691 --> 01:25:47,811
by adding, and I would also

880
01:25:47,811 --> 01:25:49,432
go to the local Bitcoin meetup.

881
01:25:50,071 --> 01:25:51,731
The most, for real,

882
01:25:53,191 --> 01:25:53,832
one of the

883
01:25:53,832 --> 01:25:55,852
things that I personally took away from going

884
01:25:55,852 --> 01:25:57,412
to the network school for that

885
01:25:57,412 --> 01:25:59,792
it was three days, three day

886
01:25:59,792 --> 01:26:00,972
period, four day, three night.

887
01:26:02,352 --> 01:26:03,511
It was the

888
01:26:03,511 --> 01:26:05,651
number of authentic

889
01:26:05,651 --> 01:26:08,051
deep conversations I had

890
01:26:08,051 --> 01:26:09,011
was

891
01:26:09,011 --> 01:26:12,571
an order of magnitude more than my day-to-day

892
01:26:12,571 --> 01:26:16,091
and going to a place where those conversations

893
01:26:16,091 --> 01:26:17,091
should be had daily.

894
01:26:18,491 --> 01:26:19,892
It was incredible.

895
01:26:20,111 --> 01:26:23,912
And I struggle with it because I'm like,

896
01:26:23,972 --> 01:26:28,111
how much of it was our tribal ideological alignment

897
01:26:28,111 --> 01:26:31,332
that made us already predisposed

898
01:26:31,332 --> 01:26:32,991
to cooperating with each other?

899
01:26:34,011 --> 01:26:36,071
Would a communist feel the same way

900
01:26:36,071 --> 01:26:38,832
going to a communist party meetup, right?

901
01:26:38,832 --> 01:26:39,611
They probably do.

902
01:26:39,711 --> 01:26:41,611
They probably get the same dopaminergic.

903
01:26:41,711 --> 01:26:42,211
Oh my God.

904
01:26:42,211 --> 01:26:45,832
These homo sapiens think exactly the way I think that's all this is, right?

905
01:26:45,832 --> 01:26:50,111
It's just tapping into the same root subsystem, just looking for community at the end of the

906
01:26:50,111 --> 01:26:50,432
day.

907
01:26:51,171 --> 01:26:53,111
Um, but there was another thing.

908
01:26:53,231 --> 01:26:54,932
This brings up a really good topic guys.

909
01:26:54,951 --> 01:26:56,352
And I wanted to explore this.

910
01:26:57,832 --> 01:27:04,752
Lucas, you said something that blew my mind at the end of the last or at the very beginning

911
01:27:04,752 --> 01:27:08,511
of the last podcast, you said that.

912
01:27:08,832 --> 01:27:16,051
the experience during the book it got you to redefine or reconsider your identity as a bitcoiner

913
01:27:16,051 --> 01:27:23,832
yeah which was so profound my i like slapped my wife's leg i was like oh my god that's incredible

914
01:27:23,832 --> 01:27:31,811
and i struggle with this one a lot like in my bitcoiner chat with my boys i'm like guys remember

915
01:27:31,811 --> 01:27:37,372
you know because when number goes up it's like you know apes beating chests you know it's like

916
01:27:37,372 --> 01:27:44,011
oh this is awesome it's like guys we're as i just i'm here to be the friendly reminder that

917
01:27:44,011 --> 01:27:49,671
because we're actually enjoying identifying as bitcoiners our ability to see veridical truth

918
01:27:49,671 --> 01:27:58,511
is compromised and so one of the one of the best ways you can improve your purchase on reality

919
01:27:58,511 --> 01:28:04,571
is to remove the identity structure from the thing you're trying to analyze do analysis on

920
01:28:04,571 --> 01:28:11,752
which is fascinating because lucas that move writes in and of itself that move of dia identifying

921
01:28:11,752 --> 01:28:17,151
as a bitcoiner which i i have effect i have effectively done with all ideal ideologies in

922
01:28:17,151 --> 01:28:23,352
my life because i find it unuseful so i don't if my feet were held to the fire i don't personally

923
01:28:23,352 --> 01:28:29,271
identify as a bitcoiner because then i know my capacity to measure what's going on is reduced

924
01:28:29,271 --> 01:28:34,372
but god do i love the space and i love people i love the people who've been thinking in this

925
01:28:34,372 --> 01:28:43,811
face right um so do you think then how do you feel about that decision yeah and

926
01:28:43,811 --> 01:28:55,271
how could we springboard that idea to talk about metatrib because that was a metatribal move

927
01:28:55,271 --> 01:29:03,611
you literally were you said i am going to shed this identity in favor of uncertainty

928
01:29:03,611 --> 01:29:14,611
I'm going to be a little bit more less tied to this identity such that I'll be able to see the space more clearly.

929
01:29:15,352 --> 01:29:17,832
And so I just thought I would love to hear your response on that.

930
01:29:18,892 --> 01:29:31,611
So I think that letting go of being a Bitcoiner and embracing being a truth seeker is maybe the proper perspective.

931
01:29:31,611 --> 01:29:45,691
perspective, much like letting go of, um, being a Christian and instead embracing someone who is

932
01:29:45,691 --> 01:29:57,292
pursuing love, um, might be kind of the right or kind of a useful thing to do. Um, so to leave

933
01:29:57,292 --> 01:30:05,811
behind like I just realized like how limiting being someone who defines themselves as a Bitcoiner

934
01:30:05,811 --> 01:30:15,611
is because it's superseding everything else it's it's just like you know there's so many things

935
01:30:15,611 --> 01:30:23,551
to life there are relationships and there is health and there is spirituality and there is

936
01:30:23,551 --> 01:30:30,852
sleep and there's finances and there's doing your chores and you know mowing the grass and

937
01:30:30,852 --> 01:30:40,551
all of these different buckets and bitcoiner is just like looking at that financial part of it

938
01:30:40,551 --> 01:30:50,811
and going i've got that right and you can't um you can't it's just one slice of the pie

939
01:30:50,811 --> 01:30:59,852
um you can't and and and what it should do i think is give you give you purchase enough on

940
01:30:59,852 --> 01:31:07,271
the cliff that you've been dangling off of you know being pushed off of we talked about this you

941
01:31:07,271 --> 01:31:14,311
know we all sal panada talks about that we all seem to have this somewhat like hidden shame and

942
01:31:14,311 --> 01:31:23,211
it's like a victim of, uh, it's like having been victimized at being financially raped by a

943
01:31:23,211 --> 01:31:32,392
extractive system, uh, that we all share this victim shame of being abused and not understanding

944
01:31:32,392 --> 01:31:42,832
it. Um, and, and coming out of that in order to find other victims that we can then, um, move on

945
01:31:42,832 --> 01:31:49,231
with. But if you just keep this identity of being a Bitcoiner, it's like keeping the identity of

946
01:31:49,231 --> 01:31:57,551
being a rape victim. And you're not, what you're doing is you're focusing on the pain and you're

947
01:31:57,551 --> 01:32:07,671
focusing on the trauma. And in all actuality, what you really want to do is you want to be able to

948
01:32:07,671 --> 01:32:14,591
just grow from that. And you want to be able to let that part of the thing that once defined you

949
01:32:14,591 --> 01:32:22,091
to let that be in the past and to move on and to grow and become more from that, I think is,

950
01:32:22,151 --> 01:32:27,311
is what I, yeah. So it really like, it got me to thinking like, what, what is important to me,

951
01:32:27,392 --> 01:32:32,292
you know, to, to be a friend, to be a brother, to be a bandmate, to be a musician,

952
01:32:32,292 --> 01:32:38,191
to be an educator, to be a shaman or a teacher.

953
01:32:38,752 --> 01:32:42,792
You know, these things are far more important than what I now,

954
01:32:42,892 --> 01:32:46,392
I think of like people who identify as Bitcoiners.

955
01:32:47,091 --> 01:32:52,392
There is, and credit to Sal Pineda for opening my eyes to this,

956
01:32:52,432 --> 01:32:54,671
because I wouldn't have gotten there without it.

957
01:32:54,671 --> 01:33:15,852
But to be able to to recognize that, you know, identifying as a bitcoiner is a lot like identifying as a victim of trauma and a victim of, you know, and to just to just maintain that identity is to continuously hold that shame.

958
01:33:15,852 --> 01:33:23,571
And you want to be able to let go of that shame because that's – and by the way, that's psychedelics for you is that it allows you to shed that shame.

959
01:33:24,071 --> 01:33:26,711
It allows you to move on and move forward without that.

960
01:33:27,491 --> 01:33:27,972
Yeah.

961
01:33:28,372 --> 01:33:32,252
The trick here is realizing that identity is an illusion.

962
01:33:33,071 --> 01:33:34,852
It's actually not real.

963
01:33:35,571 --> 01:33:37,771
It's a shared hallucination.

964
01:33:37,771 --> 01:33:46,252
and it's remarkable given that that is objectively the case how powerful it is

965
01:33:46,252 --> 01:33:56,811
I here I'm gonna I think that's so beautiful truth maximal truth seeking as the end goal

966
01:33:56,811 --> 01:34:05,151
and identifying as a maximal truth seeker I think that that is a very very powerful move

967
01:34:05,151 --> 01:34:19,551
I wonder, and this is the one thing I worry about, does something like a Bitcoin, does it need almost a religious substrate around it to ensure its survival long term?

968
01:34:19,711 --> 01:34:33,611
So like, you know, Michael Saylor in 2020 said, Bitcoin is a swarm of cyber hornets serving the goddess of wisdom, eating on the fire of truth, exponentially growing ever smarter, faster and stronger behind a wall of encrypted energy.

969
01:34:33,611 --> 01:34:41,131
like that is biblical in its in the way it is worded and that's the kind of thing that if you

970
01:34:41,131 --> 01:34:49,372
if you get like a cluster of homo sapiens buying into that to the level that they think which is

971
01:34:49,372 --> 01:34:53,051
so you know the story of satoshi nakamoto is compelling in and of itself there's this

972
01:34:53,051 --> 01:35:00,651
you know it's it's messianic in turn it very easily um used in that in that framing

973
01:35:00,651 --> 01:35:07,972
that's how you get like stable oxide mining being sent into space and ensure that bitcoin you know

974
01:35:07,972 --> 01:35:13,932
survives the heat death of the universe you need people that believe in it so much that they're

975
01:35:13,932 --> 01:35:21,671
willing to put everything on the line for it so in a way i'm like i'm wondering oh maybe do we use

976
01:35:21,671 --> 01:35:28,292
the you know do we use the tribe drive to bootstrap bitcoin survival odds it's something i struggle

977
01:35:28,292 --> 01:35:36,491
with or do we just go for maximal truth seeking it enables so much you know the the theological

978
01:35:36,491 --> 01:35:42,211
component that you know the theological bitcoin path is really fascinating and if you listen to

979
01:35:42,211 --> 01:35:48,111
michael saylor's interview with jordan pearson he goes he goes deeper into that um and really

980
01:35:48,111 --> 01:35:55,512
kind of talks more about his spiritual side um you know obviously without um without compromising

981
01:35:55,512 --> 01:35:59,191
his ability to communicate with people who don't align with that.

982
01:36:00,411 --> 01:36:04,551
And it's like on a conversation with Natalie Smolenski, she's an anthropologist as well.

983
01:36:04,671 --> 01:36:06,951
She wrote an essay towards an anthropology of money.

984
01:36:07,551 --> 01:36:12,271
He also is deeply embedded in the study of the sacred from an anthropological perspective.

985
01:36:12,711 --> 01:36:14,231
And maybe it's not Bitcoin.

986
01:36:14,551 --> 01:36:18,911
It's any sort of monetary system is based on the transfer of value through time.

987
01:36:19,091 --> 01:36:22,551
And it kind of goes back to these ancient notions of sacrifice.

988
01:36:22,551 --> 01:36:40,151
And like Swalinski does a really good job of talking about this. I couldn't offhand recount her theory or her discussion of maybe how, again, value transfer itself, value preservation might have really deep roots in notions like sacrifice that are inherently religious.

989
01:36:40,151 --> 01:36:54,571
So it's not just that Bitcoin needs to bootstrap through a theological phase of conviction, but that any sort of monetization is going to require us to transfer our beliefs from one thing of value to another thing having value.

990
01:36:54,792 --> 01:37:00,972
And that's going to require, again, a belief system that really relies on a notion of the sacred or something like that.

991
01:37:00,972 --> 01:37:17,271
Yeah. David, so you asked me this question about, you know, kind of disintegrating my belief as a Bitcoiner in order to accept something of a larger identity.

992
01:37:17,271 --> 01:37:23,472
And then you wiped clean the idea that I have an identity, right? It's this short hallucination.

993
01:37:23,472 --> 01:37:30,811
um there were some questions that i had just like this is this is more like small scale but like

994
01:37:30,811 --> 01:37:36,551
at a camp level um and you can talk specifically about your camp or you can talk kind of in the

995
01:37:36,551 --> 01:37:48,031
general theme i had questions about like what what direction do we take or is there like um

996
01:37:48,031 --> 01:37:54,231
is there like a, like what role does, what role does alcohol play? What role does physical fitness

997
01:37:54,231 --> 01:38:03,211
play? Um, what role, like, where are we with like romantic relationships? Are they, um, are they

998
01:38:03,211 --> 01:38:10,432
couples? Are they, you know, is this going to be the throuple polygamy type thing? Like, is there a,

999
01:38:10,432 --> 01:38:18,951
is there an anthropological basis for that? Um, well, like, because I've, I've, I've read about,

1000
01:38:18,951 --> 01:38:29,051
you know, there's, uh, what was the book? Um, the, the man from the man from Mars. Um,

1001
01:38:30,472 --> 01:38:36,051
it's, it's on apologies. Uh, it's on apologies, like recommended reading. Uh, but anyways,

1002
01:38:36,051 --> 01:38:40,711
It's like the guy comes from Mars and he teaches all the people the Martian ways.

1003
01:38:40,951 --> 01:38:41,512
And then he becomes.

1004
01:38:41,872 --> 01:38:42,771
Stranger in a strange land.

1005
01:38:42,872 --> 01:38:42,991
Yeah.

1006
01:38:43,111 --> 01:38:44,091
Stranger in a strange land.

1007
01:38:44,671 --> 01:38:44,832
Right.

1008
01:38:45,111 --> 01:38:49,691
So you read that book and like he basically ends up turning everything into an orgy.

1009
01:38:50,631 --> 01:38:51,071
Yeah.

1010
01:38:51,311 --> 01:38:51,651
And they.

1011
01:38:52,372 --> 01:38:53,531
When was that book written?

1012
01:38:54,031 --> 01:38:54,892
It was 1960.

1013
01:38:56,631 --> 01:38:58,171
Things were happening, dude.

1014
01:38:58,311 --> 01:38:59,051
Things were happening.

1015
01:38:59,091 --> 01:39:00,551
They outlawed psychedelics.

1016
01:39:01,012 --> 01:39:01,892
Yeah, for sure.

1017
01:39:01,892 --> 01:39:03,571
They were having too much of an impact.

1018
01:39:03,571 --> 01:39:06,691
And then we got shitty music and ugly cars.

1019
01:39:07,171 --> 01:39:07,771
Yeah.

1020
01:39:08,252 --> 01:39:12,951
Lucas, you're hitting on topics that could eat independently be explored in other podcasts.

1021
01:39:15,071 --> 01:39:20,332
I'll try and hit my best thoughts on each of them.

1022
01:39:20,951 --> 01:39:23,811
The alcohol thing, it's interesting you brought that up.

1023
01:39:24,451 --> 01:39:33,432
It's one that as somebody who grew up, at least during my core developmental years in greater Appalachia, southern Indiana,

1024
01:39:33,571 --> 01:39:37,852
Um, you know, the, the alcohol culture there is very strong.

1025
01:39:38,591 --> 01:39:46,472
And so we like, as, as the way I've landed on it now, because I love a good whiskey.

1026
01:39:46,472 --> 01:39:47,671
I love a good beer.

1027
01:39:47,671 --> 01:39:55,292
And I've always found that these things enhance pro-sociality until they don't.

1028
01:39:55,292 --> 01:39:55,752
Right.

1029
01:39:55,752 --> 01:40:08,631
and uh where i've landed on that is alcohol is great to use perhaps in as a as a ritual signifier

1030
01:40:08,631 --> 01:40:13,191
of something that important that has happened not to use as a crutch or as a medication but like

1031
01:40:13,191 --> 01:40:23,852
lucas grant we meet each other in meat space right i the act of us pouring a pint into the glass

1032
01:40:23,852 --> 01:40:31,111
sitting face to face there is some sort of almost sacred bubble yeah that is wrapping around us now

1033
01:40:31,111 --> 01:40:38,972
we're in a circle of trust now we can we can take the mundane universe that is all around us and all

1034
01:40:38,972 --> 01:40:44,731
the things that have been distracted us and maybe we can just engage in each other totally non-distracted

1035
01:40:44,731 --> 01:40:51,111
for a while incidentally why i love cigars as well um you like that cigar and it's like a 45

1036
01:40:51,111 --> 01:40:59,311
minute timer of whoever your interlocutor is you've given them that space that time and also

1037
01:40:59,311 --> 01:41:05,151
for me because i love nicotine uh a 10 point bump in my intelligence and eloquence so it's like

1038
01:41:05,151 --> 01:41:09,892
i'm like and the thing is it's kind of you know bad for you so you don't want to do it every day

1039
01:41:09,892 --> 01:41:15,252
so there's this an inherent like yeah um spiritual component to these things that if prop they're

1040
01:41:15,252 --> 01:41:21,332
just tools in your shamanic toolkit, if properly wielded, can create set and setting, right?

1041
01:41:21,892 --> 01:41:28,932
Psilocybin adventures and exploration, if you're a shaman that is trying to create a good

1042
01:41:28,932 --> 01:41:35,012
psilocybin experience, you know the two things you have to take into account are the set and the

1043
01:41:35,012 --> 01:41:41,012
setting, right? The setting, the environment is going to dictate, be the cues by which the new

1044
01:41:41,012 --> 01:41:46,531
state of consciousness is going to go on its exploration and then the set is the dosage and

1045
01:41:46,531 --> 01:41:53,332
the spiritual preparation beforehand right all these things are just tools to help augment the

1046
01:41:53,332 --> 01:42:00,091
the the output of the actual event itself so i think alcohol can be one of those things

1047
01:42:00,091 --> 01:42:08,551
if properly used in the right dosage in the right set and setting does that i'll i'll leave you

1048
01:42:08,551 --> 01:42:13,932
guys to respond to that if no i'm just curious because i i grew up northwest kansas you know

1049
01:42:13,932 --> 01:42:23,411
incredibly hard drinking society um and um you know and i i never i never liked it but i engaged

1050
01:42:23,411 --> 01:42:31,852
in it because i had this uh social anxiety that i used alcohol to help me get over when i played

1051
01:42:31,852 --> 01:42:40,392
music to fit in. And, and there is that bonding thing, but I also think about it as kind of like,

1052
01:42:41,551 --> 01:42:48,591
you know, from the extreme crazy level, there is the conspiracy that, you know, all of the

1053
01:42:48,591 --> 01:42:53,451
world leaders are engaged in some sort of pedophilia because there's, that's a way to

1054
01:42:53,451 --> 01:42:59,252
compromise each other. And therefore, if you're all shared compromise, then you can trust each

1055
01:42:59,252 --> 01:43:04,671
other and then scale that down to a lower level of like, oh, if I'm, you know, eight beers deep

1056
01:43:04,671 --> 01:43:09,171
and everybody else is eight beers deep, we're all compromised and we can all trust each other.

1057
01:43:09,691 --> 01:43:15,991
And so there's this, the ceremonial part of it is something that I think is really powerful.

1058
01:43:16,191 --> 01:43:20,372
Yeah. I'm just curious about it because I'm, you know, I'm just rethinking all these things

1059
01:43:20,372 --> 01:43:26,872
about my life and about the habits that I had and why I did it. You know, I am too. And actually

1060
01:43:26,872 --> 01:43:34,551
to your point um i've been laying off the drinking strategically relatively recently it also

1061
01:43:34,551 --> 01:43:41,531
you know my wife is a fun drinking buddy to have and she's pregnant right now so i'm trying i'm

1062
01:43:41,531 --> 01:43:46,671
trying to help out there too and what i remind something that's been super helpful has been

1063
01:43:46,671 --> 01:43:53,771
reminding myself actually that the people are the drug the drug isn't the drug the p when you know

1064
01:43:53,771 --> 01:44:05,991
I don't need the beer because the neuro endocrine response of being surrounded by face to face relationships I care about is the drug.

1065
01:44:06,472 --> 01:44:11,691
That's the that is the actual positive feedback loop you're trying to engage in.

1066
01:44:11,811 --> 01:44:22,432
If the alcohol can improve, if it has a pro social component to it, if it somehow makes that connection just a little more fun or strong in that moment, that's fine.

1067
01:44:22,432 --> 01:44:24,811
But it can also do just as much to distract.

1068
01:44:25,432 --> 01:44:31,111
So just what is the – we always have to take into account what is our goal?

1069
01:44:31,651 --> 01:44:32,671
Why are we doing it?

1070
01:44:32,932 --> 01:44:34,311
Because the people are the drug.

1071
01:44:34,372 --> 01:44:42,111
That's been very helpful for me as I've been trying to, you know, modulate as a tool more and more as I grow older.

1072
01:44:42,111 --> 01:45:03,731
There's such a strong connection to shame and to the drug, be it alcohol or psychedelics or whatever, that allows you to be silly without shame, to be fun, to be open and be vulnerable without shame.

1073
01:45:03,731 --> 01:45:19,372
And, you know, we we do we we especially in the Western culture, we live in such a shame based society where it is a useful tool to keep people from going out of line.

1074
01:45:19,372 --> 01:45:41,311
But then we've gone to the point, I think, now where people don't try new things because there is such a shame associated with failure when we should be interpreting failure as simply feedback as a mechanism to allow us to further hone our skill.

1075
01:45:41,311 --> 01:46:04,071
So, but yeah, we, especially today, right, especially in the era of the woke kind of Puritan approach to thing where it's, you know, who can be the, yeah, you know, like who can be the most pure?

1076
01:46:04,071 --> 01:46:06,131
And the most pure is the one that hasn't failed.

1077
01:46:06,231 --> 01:46:11,171
And the one that hasn't failed is just the one that hasn't tried because there's no such thing as a born winner.

1078
01:46:11,311 --> 01:46:16,832
There's just people that kept losing until they were able to finally succeed.

1079
01:46:17,191 --> 01:46:18,671
So, yeah, I don't know.

1080
01:46:18,731 --> 01:46:19,231
I'm just curious.

1081
01:46:19,352 --> 01:46:19,951
It's interesting.

1082
01:46:20,451 --> 01:46:22,631
That shame component is super interesting.

1083
01:46:23,051 --> 01:46:31,731
It makes me think of the Japanese tradition of getting absolutely wasted with your boss after a 14-hour workday.

1084
01:46:31,731 --> 01:46:34,271
And it's the only time you can kind of talk shit to your boss.

1085
01:46:35,311 --> 01:46:39,491
It's like, you know, it's such an honor-based society.

1086
01:46:39,491 --> 01:46:42,911
And shame is one of the mechanisms by which you punish others.

1087
01:46:43,671 --> 01:46:47,631
And so it's like this little window where you can do exactly that.

1088
01:46:47,792 --> 01:46:54,731
Your permissible outbursts that don't necessarily tie back to a shame mechanism.

1089
01:46:55,191 --> 01:46:56,131
That's fascinating.

1090
01:46:56,271 --> 01:46:57,392
I hadn't really thought about it that way.

1091
01:46:57,951 --> 01:46:59,972
And shame is also the way that you punish yourself.

1092
01:47:00,491 --> 01:47:03,071
Bernard Williams has this book called Shame and Necessity.

1093
01:47:03,151 --> 01:47:04,352
And it's about the ancient Greeks.

1094
01:47:04,591 --> 01:47:08,091
And the thing about shame is you can experience shame when you're by yourself.

1095
01:47:08,091 --> 01:47:11,311
and there's nobody to shame you for having done something.

1096
01:47:11,811 --> 01:47:13,411
And he ties that to identity.

1097
01:47:13,691 --> 01:47:16,271
Like shame is a compromised identity.

1098
01:47:16,271 --> 01:47:20,332
When you don't act in conformance with the identity that you want to have,

1099
01:47:20,392 --> 01:47:21,352
you experience shame.

1100
01:47:21,811 --> 01:47:28,191
It goes to this ability to metacognitively shed an identity that's not helping you,

1101
01:47:28,252 --> 01:47:30,991
that you're feeling shame when you don't act in accordance with.

1102
01:47:30,991 --> 01:47:36,432
If you could have the ability to leap over that shame to the identity that's causing you,

1103
01:47:36,432 --> 01:47:39,292
that is the source of shame because you're not complying with it and say,

1104
01:47:39,411 --> 01:47:41,571
that's not, the truth is not in line with that.

1105
01:47:41,611 --> 01:47:46,012
I want to get rid of that to maybe like that consideration like you did of maybe I'm not a

1106
01:47:46,012 --> 01:47:50,271
Bitcoiner and so it has to shame if I don't like the shame I'm holding on to, I can let go

1107
01:47:50,271 --> 01:47:52,271
in relation to that identity or something like that.

1108
01:47:52,271 --> 01:47:53,531
Oh, that's great, Grant.

1109
01:47:53,832 --> 01:47:58,611
That makes me think of, I've been reading the child development literature a lot.

1110
01:47:58,892 --> 01:48:02,051
A lot of it is the pro-social execution of identity.

1111
01:48:02,051 --> 01:48:08,352
So, you know, just imagine your kid, six or seven, he shoplifts or something, steals a candy.

1112
01:48:08,852 --> 01:48:12,332
It's like, do you identify as a thief?

1113
01:48:12,591 --> 01:48:13,332
Are you a thief?

1114
01:48:13,571 --> 01:48:19,091
Like, you use identity as a way to be like, oh, no, that's not my identity.

1115
01:48:19,091 --> 01:48:32,372
And by the reinforcing of a clear delineation of what the identity is with something that's positive versus negative ensures that that likely antisocial behavior is reduced in the future.

1116
01:48:33,051 --> 01:48:33,071
Nice.

1117
01:48:33,551 --> 01:48:33,792
Yeah.

1118
01:48:34,151 --> 01:48:36,091
Power of shared hallucinations.

1119
01:48:36,292 --> 01:48:36,892
That's it.

1120
01:48:36,951 --> 01:48:38,951
The power of shared hallucinations.

1121
01:48:39,271 --> 01:48:45,711
Speaking of this shared hallucination, though, I know your drinking buddy is outside right now with your kid giving you the space to talk here.

1122
01:48:45,711 --> 01:48:46,792
And we said two hours.

1123
01:48:47,432 --> 01:48:48,932
We're a little bit over the two hours.

1124
01:48:48,932 --> 01:48:52,551
So I wanted to be mindful of that, I guess.

1125
01:48:52,691 --> 01:49:00,451
And if there is anything else that like you wanted to talk about that we didn't or if you wanted, I don't know, just wanted to not not not cause an incident with your family.

1126
01:49:00,631 --> 01:49:03,252
So, no, I'm very appreciative of that, Grant.

1127
01:49:03,432 --> 01:49:08,031
The physical stuff and the pair bonding stuff is actually super rich.

1128
01:49:08,031 --> 01:49:15,731
let me let me pass that really quickly with some thoughts and then we'll end with a slide about

1129
01:49:15,731 --> 01:49:22,852
there's one slide i wanted to pop up about what is evidence and how i perceive that because that

1130
01:49:22,852 --> 01:49:26,991
ended up being such a juicy part of your guys's conversation at the end of the last podcast

1131
01:49:26,991 --> 01:49:33,711
um so the physical stuff to your question lucas uh for me personally and for our honor group

1132
01:49:33,711 --> 01:49:41,052
absolutely crucial. It's our kind of our church, you know, um, we meet up for what we call a,

1133
01:49:41,052 --> 01:49:48,512
a wheel of pain every, every Wednesday when we're together and we do physically challenging things,

1134
01:49:48,512 --> 01:49:53,792
usually that involves some level of coordination between the two of us or, or four of us,

1135
01:49:53,792 --> 01:50:01,491
depending on how many people we've got there. And it is, it is a sacred space. We do, uh,

1136
01:50:01,491 --> 01:50:06,631
These guys who are in my honor group, they're also participants of this medieval martial art.

1137
01:50:06,631 --> 01:50:09,012
So we do like katas, essentially.

1138
01:50:09,292 --> 01:50:14,571
We go through our forms, our medieval sword forms before and after as a ritual to open and close.

1139
01:50:14,711 --> 01:50:18,311
Then we go out and slam some Mexican and have a couple beers.

1140
01:50:19,151 --> 01:50:21,552
So it is truly crucial.

1141
01:50:22,012 --> 01:50:31,392
And the thing is, in the norms that we hold very sacred are the concepts of we need to be strong to each other.

1142
01:50:31,392 --> 01:50:44,052
If you're weak, not only are you weak to yourself, but you're a weak chain in our honor group that makes you a weak foundation by which to build anything worth building.

1143
01:50:44,711 --> 01:50:54,811
And so we very much use those framings and those terms and we do it, you know, as bombastically as we can because it's fun and it drives the point home.

1144
01:50:54,811 --> 01:51:04,411
So physicality is definitely something that I think is a powerful driver of group bonding and coordination.

1145
01:51:05,012 --> 01:51:12,332
The pair bond thing, I'll just say this because this could actually be I had a lot of questions about this at the network school, actually.

1146
01:51:13,052 --> 01:51:14,752
I'll just say this.

1147
01:51:14,752 --> 01:51:23,432
if you look at say the hunter-gatherer literature something along the lines of

1148
01:51:23,432 --> 01:51:29,671
slight polygyny is probably what we would call classic like a typical pattern so say you're a

1149
01:51:29,671 --> 01:51:39,552
hunter in the Hadza tribe right most males throughout their lifetime will have something

1150
01:51:39,552 --> 01:51:51,211
like 1.2 wives and this is expressed kind of like the side piece yeah pretty pretty much um you got

1151
01:51:51,211 --> 01:51:56,651
another camp you might be such a good hunter so you have multiple camps yeah and you've got you're

1152
01:51:56,651 --> 01:52:01,911
such a good hunter that you can provide enough calories not only for your core camp but for

1153
01:52:01,911 --> 01:52:10,671
another potential pair bond right and there that's in the hunter-gatherer literature that is

1154
01:52:10,671 --> 01:52:17,211
somewhat typical a generalizable pattern but it gets pretty wild and when it gets wild it's always

1155
01:52:17,211 --> 01:52:22,171
into response to extreme ecologies so for example you can have the reverse where you have multiple

1156
01:52:22,171 --> 01:52:28,631
husbands per female this it happens but it's like 0.02 percent of the time of all the cultures that

1157
01:52:28,631 --> 01:52:36,432
have ever been measured, you might get this. And it's when the land is so hard to work and calories

1158
01:52:36,432 --> 01:52:43,392
are so scarce that you actually need two typically actually related brothers, kin blood brothers,

1159
01:52:43,671 --> 01:53:05,237
as the husband to till enough agriculture to be able to survive So it really is ecologically dependent And it relatively clear to me that marriage as a construct has been one of those innovations like large religions in and of itself a way that once you scaling

1160
01:53:05,237 --> 01:53:12,898
the challenges of lots of dense population living on top of each other you have to solve

1161
01:53:12,898 --> 01:53:18,917
for certain problems and one of those problems is stability if you have an extreme mismatch

1162
01:53:18,917 --> 01:53:23,757
of high-powered males dominating with all potential reproductive mates,

1163
01:53:24,458 --> 01:53:29,217
that's the grounds for an incredibly unstable society.

1164
01:53:29,477 --> 01:53:34,018
In the same way that what you see monotheism

1165
01:53:34,018 --> 01:53:38,677
as a very clear post-effect compensation

1166
01:53:38,677 --> 01:53:42,857
for having over a million people in the same area.

1167
01:53:43,737 --> 01:53:46,977
And so you go from polytheism as sort of the standard,

1168
01:53:46,977 --> 01:53:51,177
then you get these clumps of tons of people living on top of each other.

1169
01:53:51,197 --> 01:53:52,317
And how do you coordinate that behavior?

1170
01:53:52,317 --> 01:53:59,157
You have a more consolidated ideological intersubjective belief network that's,

1171
01:53:59,157 --> 01:54:02,257
that enforces things like marriage, right?

1172
01:54:02,777 --> 01:54:05,817
So where does that bring us with the camp?

1173
01:54:06,097 --> 01:54:09,958
I don't know, sort of dealer's choice, but realize where,

1174
01:54:10,117 --> 01:54:12,977
be mindful of your ecology, right?

1175
01:54:13,317 --> 01:54:16,617
If you want and always be seeking stability,

1176
01:54:16,977 --> 01:54:30,657
Because if you're going outside of systems that are there to enforce stability, it's not just like you're not just affecting you and your pair bond.

1177
01:54:30,857 --> 01:54:33,757
You're affecting everyone else in your community too.

1178
01:54:34,617 --> 01:54:39,297
And that can be a very powerful glue, all things being equal.

1179
01:54:39,297 --> 01:54:45,398
Like I think maybe the marriage and divorce rate might be a little bit different if we have stronger communities.

1180
01:54:45,398 --> 01:54:57,717
You know, just as an organic outcropping of not wanting to let other people down and keeping a stable, stable construct. So that's my one passing thought on that.

1181
01:54:57,717 --> 01:55:18,677
Yeah, I was yesterday I was listening to Brett Weinstein talk about the rise of activism and he traced it back to the sexual revolution, the advent of birth control and abortions, which allowed people to put off childbearing.

1182
01:55:18,677 --> 01:55:29,257
It allowed people to put off marriage and they still had all of that energy that previously would have been directed towards building family and building a marriage.

1183
01:55:30,357 --> 01:55:40,558
And instead, as he says, take all that mama bear energy and put it into climate or transgenderism or something like this.

1184
01:55:40,558 --> 01:55:50,857
So where it typically leans very liberal because it is that mama bear energy and, you know, and then females lean more on that side.

1185
01:55:50,857 --> 01:56:03,817
But it's just kind of fascinating to think about like how kind of playing with our biology by toying with these little innovations can have a wide scale effect on the stability of a society.

1186
01:56:03,817 --> 01:56:10,077
so yeah and and i think about paul duroff you know like the telegram guy he's got like 103

1187
01:56:10,077 --> 01:56:17,297
children or something like that you know it doesn't you know no um you know well he's got

1188
01:56:17,297 --> 01:56:23,458
nothing on genghis khan his uh genetics are signature so they actually they've mapped out

1189
01:56:23,458 --> 01:56:33,117
15 of southeast asia is a descendant of genghis khan yeah that is 15 of 1 billion people

1190
01:56:33,817 --> 01:56:34,157
Yeah.

1191
01:56:34,857 --> 01:56:36,558
Because he had a very specific strategy.

1192
01:56:36,757 --> 01:56:42,417
It was him and his boys going over to another group, killing all males,

1193
01:56:42,417 --> 01:56:51,257
and expanding the official set of wives for each of his 10 offspring were 40 other wives.

1194
01:56:51,757 --> 01:56:52,717
He had 40 wives.

1195
01:56:53,398 --> 01:56:55,458
40 legitimate heirs, right?

1196
01:56:56,297 --> 01:57:00,637
So, yeah, that's one strategy to do it.

1197
01:57:00,977 --> 01:57:02,077
There's lots of strategies.

1198
01:57:02,077 --> 01:57:10,038
As an evolutionary anthropologist, I mean, do you are you ever just cynical and say that the whole reason we camp craft is sexual access?

1199
01:57:10,398 --> 01:57:13,458
Like that's the reason that's the evolutionary motive to propagate our genes.

1200
01:57:13,558 --> 01:57:23,357
And so camp crafting is subordinate to, you know, access to a to women or to men as a be to put your genes forward or something.

1201
01:57:24,058 --> 01:57:31,877
Well, I mean, I wouldn't even call it cynical on a on one kind of level, on the level of the genes.

1202
01:57:31,877 --> 01:57:34,377
if you're just looking at it from the perspective of a gene,

1203
01:57:34,677 --> 01:57:36,977
that could be a viable strategy, right?

1204
01:57:37,077 --> 01:57:38,458
You could say that.

1205
01:57:40,757 --> 01:57:44,417
But when I look at Genghis Khan's strategy,

1206
01:57:44,777 --> 01:57:50,217
I wonder if you were to let Genghis simulate

1207
01:57:50,217 --> 01:57:51,477
a hundred different lives,

1208
01:57:51,797 --> 01:57:53,977
and one of those lives was living

1209
01:57:53,977 --> 01:57:58,177
in a peaceful hunter-gatherer camp,

1210
01:57:58,177 --> 01:58:01,177
face-to-face, where he had...

1211
01:58:01,877 --> 01:58:04,498
people he trusts in his life and got,

1212
01:58:04,617 --> 01:58:08,657
you get to let him simulate that as a full life versus the life he had.

1213
01:58:08,657 --> 01:58:12,357
I wonder which would have generated the most wellbeing. And I don't know.

1214
01:58:12,438 --> 01:58:15,637
That's, that's an open question. Yeah.

1215
01:58:16,317 --> 01:58:21,777
Yeah. That's fascinating. I think if you're comfortable,

1216
01:58:22,237 --> 01:58:23,617
Oh wait, you have a slide.

1217
01:58:23,797 --> 01:58:26,377
I want to talk about this, this idea of evidence. I had to go.

1218
01:58:26,958 --> 01:58:30,097
Exactly. Yeah. Let's, let's get onto that. Yeah.

1219
01:58:30,097 --> 01:58:32,077
because you guys

1220
01:58:32,077 --> 01:58:34,237
oh man it was such a good conversation you guys

1221
01:58:34,237 --> 01:58:36,297
were having. It'd probably be painful to sit there and listen

1222
01:58:36,297 --> 01:58:38,077
to us butcher your book at some point

1223
01:58:38,077 --> 01:58:40,197
to your ideas and just unfairly talk

1224
01:58:40,197 --> 01:58:42,077
about you without you there. Oh no no no

1225
01:58:42,077 --> 01:58:44,297
I loved it. I felt like I was with

1226
01:58:44,297 --> 01:58:46,197
my honor group and we had a

1227
01:58:46,197 --> 01:58:47,977
beer open and we're all just

1228
01:58:47,977 --> 01:58:50,117
trying to figure it out. And that's of course

1229
01:58:50,117 --> 01:58:52,117
how we meant it too. It felt like you were

1230
01:58:52,117 --> 01:58:54,297
there as well. We were with your book and your ideas so

1231
01:58:54,297 --> 01:58:59,458
There we go

1232
01:58:59,458 --> 01:59:04,797
where are you and but i mean as long as you're not getting divorced take as much time as you want

1233
01:59:04,797 --> 01:59:11,998
yeah i wouldn't we're in a really good spot right now guys we're all right we're all right um

1234
01:59:11,998 --> 01:59:17,697
you're not sharing i'm not sharing you were and then it went away okay

1235
01:59:17,697 --> 01:59:36,117
there we go there we go you're popping up uh there it is yeah okay so this is what it made

1236
01:59:36,117 --> 01:59:42,817
me think of looks like a merkle tree it it is a kind of tree and it just disappeared again i think

1237
01:59:42,817 --> 01:59:49,117
you can't zoom in on it i can't zoom in on it yeah just make it make it a full slide okay or good

1238
01:59:49,117 --> 01:59:53,817
yeah go to like slideshow however you were at before before we kind of said that it wasn't

1239
01:59:53,817 --> 01:59:59,458
working where it's just kind of like you see this and then you see nope it's not up no okay

1240
01:59:59,458 --> 02:00:02,337
okay let me let me reshare

1241
02:00:02,337 --> 02:00:16,837
window let's try window that'll do it that will do it okay now i'm gonna there it is great success

1242
02:00:16,837 --> 02:00:21,817
yeah okay we'll just leave it there okay um all right so

1243
02:00:21,817 --> 02:00:29,597
so one key thing grant that you you mentioned was like by what evidence because you were this

1244
02:00:29,597 --> 02:00:36,498
was in the greater conversation of sort of the meta tribe yeah um you know and trying to i guess

1245
02:00:36,498 --> 02:00:41,757
i should say i'll back up for a second here right and say that you know you really try and swing at

1246
02:00:41,757 --> 02:00:45,777
the fences after you've written a book for five years you're like you're going for a solution to

1247
02:00:45,777 --> 02:00:51,797
a big intractable problem that's probably impossible to solve yeah so there's a component

1248
02:00:51,797 --> 02:00:56,177
there's a component just just to lay it out for people who aren't to get us to this point of the

1249
02:00:56,177 --> 02:00:59,518
What's the problem we're solving and what's the solution that was that big swing?

1250
02:01:00,337 --> 02:01:12,938
Yeah, it's effectively how do we edge closer to pro-social communities that can thrive without killing each other?

1251
02:01:12,938 --> 02:01:15,058
That's the basics we're trying to get to, right?

1252
02:01:15,677 --> 02:01:24,697
And the concept of the Metatribe is basically to turn the logic of tribalism, the worst components of it,

1253
02:01:24,697 --> 02:01:33,037
that thing that makes it embed into our psychology and be willing to kill or murder an outgroup,

1254
02:01:33,037 --> 02:01:40,717
let's use that against itself. And so it's sort of like a terminal tribe. It's like the

1255
02:01:40,717 --> 02:01:48,277
last possible tribe that you could ever appeal to. This is being the team human or a meta tribe,

1256
02:01:48,277 --> 02:01:54,938
because you're taking identity and you're gluing it to an open mindset.

1257
02:01:55,637 --> 02:01:55,757
Yeah.

1258
02:01:56,197 --> 02:02:02,998
Basically a worldview that states that if evidence appears that is of enough weight

1259
02:02:02,998 --> 02:02:06,537
that it disproves my current understanding,

1260
02:02:06,537 --> 02:02:13,797
I change my prior and I adopt a new, less erroneous worldview

1261
02:02:13,797 --> 02:02:17,438
in the pursuit of maximalizing truth, right?

1262
02:02:17,438 --> 02:02:28,398
And I'm not Pollyannish here to think that, you know, you're ever going to get 100% of homo sapiens to adopt to this kind of like symbolic intersubjective belief network.

1263
02:02:28,637 --> 02:02:29,737
No chance in hell.

1264
02:02:30,577 --> 02:02:32,677
But you don't need a lot.

1265
02:02:33,817 --> 02:02:37,757
I'm thinking more or less along the lines of like, you know, the foundation.

1266
02:02:37,877 --> 02:02:39,337
Have you guys read Asimov's Foundation?

1267
02:02:39,757 --> 02:02:39,998
Yeah.

1268
02:02:40,098 --> 02:02:40,277
Yeah.

1269
02:02:40,438 --> 02:02:41,717
Back in high school.

1270
02:02:42,058 --> 02:02:44,917
I read it a couple of months ago at the network school.

1271
02:02:45,177 --> 02:02:45,297
Yeah.

1272
02:02:45,297 --> 02:02:46,438
That's awesome, man.

1273
02:02:46,438 --> 02:02:51,137
i'm i'm literally rereading it now i'm in the second book right now i read it back in high

1274
02:02:51,137 --> 02:02:57,657
school too and when i think of the network school and of what biology is doing i mean it's really

1275
02:02:57,657 --> 02:03:03,898
hard not to make some sort of like killer metaphor to him being harry fucking selden of the yeah yeah

1276
02:03:03,898 --> 02:03:11,117
the selden plan yes plan like the guy is definitely his thoughts per minute are such that

1277
02:03:11,117 --> 02:03:16,357
you could imagine he's engaging in some form of psycho history analytics himself right like this

1278
02:03:16,357 --> 02:03:22,377
guy is definitely next level and what he's doing is really cool and what i the reason why i was so

1279
02:03:22,377 --> 02:03:28,737
attracted to the network's school and potentially the state is because i think it is a true

1280
02:03:28,737 --> 02:03:35,917
embodiment of this sort of meta tribe as a concept baked into it is decentralization

1281
02:03:35,917 --> 02:03:41,777
baked into it is empiricism he's all about decentralized science this is something that

1282
02:03:41,777 --> 02:03:43,977
I want to dedicate the rest of my scientific career to.

1283
02:03:44,058 --> 02:03:44,337
Nice.

1284
02:03:45,558 --> 02:03:58,317
And really just trying to be as truth maximizing as possible and having that as a sacred mission of the enterprise itself, of the society itself.

1285
02:03:58,777 --> 02:03:59,317
So I really do.

1286
02:03:59,537 --> 02:04:01,737
The foundation metaphor is really nice.

1287
02:04:03,477 --> 02:04:05,717
So that's the big problem, right?

1288
02:04:05,717 --> 02:04:16,637
And I think if you just have a few foundations around that have this, it's just backing up the probabilistics of our survival as a species.

1289
02:04:16,757 --> 02:04:20,657
It's really sort of a it's a it's an existential issue.

1290
02:04:20,657 --> 02:04:30,617
Right. So when when you said by what evidence, Grant, this is exactly and then you said by what evidence and then Lucas, you brought in some appeals.

1291
02:04:30,617 --> 02:04:37,337
they were beautiful poetics appeals to like love um purpose and meaning and i was like okay

1292
02:04:37,337 --> 02:04:41,917
if i were in the room right now what i would bring to our shared attention is something along

1293
02:04:41,917 --> 02:04:49,577
the lines of like this these are two different categories and you've got here um effectively

1294
02:04:49,577 --> 02:04:57,257
the human you know this is the branch of information information communication all life

1295
02:04:57,257 --> 02:05:05,777
from its beginning iterations two billion years ago is about figuring out what information

1296
02:05:05,777 --> 02:05:12,717
to share through space-time. Basically, what information is worth saving, right?

1297
02:05:13,717 --> 02:05:23,938
And once you get to the human branch, you've got two kinds of branches that emit from this tree of

1298
02:05:23,938 --> 02:05:30,558
data that has been ongoing since really even before life because it's all just data it's all

1299
02:05:30,558 --> 02:05:36,777
just information going through infinite iterations of natural selection so what i heard you guys

1300
02:05:36,777 --> 02:05:45,197
appeal to a lot was the left part of the tree so religions to inspire you know songs to enjoy

1301
02:05:45,197 --> 02:05:55,598
jokes to laugh but there's also a dark side to faith and to to unchallenged faith unchallengeable

1302
02:05:55,598 --> 02:06:04,317
faith that's all sort of like the the the malicious cult you were appealing to before lucas like all

1303
02:06:04,317 --> 02:06:12,958
the things that can happen when you use untruth as an identity and manipulate others this is what i

1304
02:06:12,958 --> 02:06:17,998
was talking about there's shamans and then there are witches or wizards or warlocks right are using

1305
02:06:17,998 --> 02:06:26,817
it for good or evil so what protects us from the dark side of this appeal to to faith itself so

1306
02:06:26,817 --> 02:06:34,077
imagine this this is the thought experiment you've got 10 000 different independent cultures

1307
02:06:34,077 --> 02:06:38,998
they're in their petri dishes they have maybe their own maybe they have their own planet they're

1308
02:06:38,998 --> 02:06:44,337
just running their own experiment, right? They come up with 10,000 different ways of knowing.

1309
02:06:44,617 --> 02:06:49,317
This is a very popular term in sociocultural anthropology. This culture has a different way

1310
02:06:49,317 --> 02:06:55,458
of knowing, right? This indigenous people sees this is their worldview. This is what it generated

1311
02:06:55,458 --> 02:07:05,177
over the life history of its cultural evolution. And then on the 10,000th, you have one that uses

1312
02:07:05,177 --> 02:07:08,958
empiricism effectively creating the scientific method.

1313
02:07:10,098 --> 02:07:11,518
This is a way of knowing.

1314
02:07:11,917 --> 02:07:18,458
It's a methodology of knowing, of coming to understand and reduce error in our understanding

1315
02:07:18,458 --> 02:07:21,417
of veridical reality, assuming there is a veridical reality.

1316
02:07:21,657 --> 02:07:26,977
And I don't think we have to have that debate here, that there's something to work towards

1317
02:07:26,977 --> 02:07:29,398
to, and we call that truth.

1318
02:07:29,398 --> 02:07:36,458
if out of all 10,000 of those cultural experiments,

1319
02:07:36,458 --> 02:07:40,077
there's only one that can test the veracity,

1320
02:07:40,077 --> 02:07:44,657
the veridical truth of the other ways of knowing,

1321
02:07:45,077 --> 02:07:47,157
whether or not those things are objectively,

1322
02:07:48,077 --> 02:07:50,837
measurably, empirically true or false,

1323
02:07:51,077 --> 02:07:54,157
which is what makes the empirical line,

1324
02:07:54,417 --> 02:07:57,737
the empirical tree so crucial.

1325
02:07:57,737 --> 02:08:05,317
and you would have to have that at least as a stop gap in our species.

1326
02:08:06,217 --> 02:08:09,337
And this is the appeal to the meta tribe as a concept.

1327
02:08:09,438 --> 02:08:12,837
If you have enough people that understand how to execute the system,

1328
02:08:13,058 --> 02:08:17,018
you're just protecting, existentially protecting the other groups

1329
02:08:17,018 --> 02:08:23,417
from running roughshod over you with potentially malignant forms of untestable belief.

1330
02:08:24,018 --> 02:08:25,837
That's sort of the idea.

1331
02:08:25,837 --> 02:08:39,977
This makes sense. And I love the analogy to the foundation and that there are, you don't have to have all the groups that have this metatribal identity. You can just have some that are guardians or protectors over the others or something like that.

1332
02:08:39,977 --> 02:08:49,577
Where I disagree, I think, is that I don't think even that Metatribe has truth-seeking at the top of its metacognitive pyramid.

1333
02:08:50,117 --> 02:08:58,337
They have faith in a value, and that value is the equal dignity of humans, something that can never be proven empirically.

1334
02:08:58,537 --> 02:09:03,077
If you try to empirically prove that, you're going to arrive at some notion of scientific racism.

1335
02:09:03,417 --> 02:09:06,558
You're going to see that humans are not, in fact, biologically similar.

1336
02:09:06,558 --> 02:09:11,717
this is what adorno and horkheimer were getting at in the dialectic of enlightenment that

1337
02:09:11,717 --> 02:09:17,018
enlightenment if you understand it purely as instrumental reason of rationality ends up

1338
02:09:17,018 --> 02:09:23,058
inverting itself into totalitarianism because you need to have just like this unthinking

1339
02:09:23,058 --> 02:09:28,577
faith in human dignity even if the evidence comes up that humans are different in some way

1340
02:09:28,577 --> 02:09:34,537
you say i discard that evidence because i believe this human is my brother he's my moral equal

1341
02:09:34,537 --> 02:09:38,537
That morality, that can never be empirically substantiated.

1342
02:09:39,177 --> 02:09:43,177
You can give me all the science you want in the world, but facts and values are different.

1343
02:09:43,617 --> 02:09:44,837
Values are superordinate.

1344
02:09:45,098 --> 02:09:50,617
And the most superordinate value there is is human dignity and like equality amongst individuals or something like that.

1345
02:09:51,157 --> 02:09:55,857
Yeah, but Grant, and that's well put, that is an ideology.

1346
02:09:56,598 --> 02:10:00,657
That's not truth maximization as a foundational savior.

1347
02:10:00,657 --> 02:10:01,717
I totally agree.

1348
02:10:01,717 --> 02:10:06,857
That is what can happen if you lose the thread.

1349
02:10:07,498 --> 02:10:07,558
Yeah.

1350
02:10:07,677 --> 02:10:07,898
Right.

1351
02:10:08,458 --> 02:10:12,677
But I wouldn't say that human dignity has anything to do with truth.

1352
02:10:13,177 --> 02:10:13,977
I agree.

1353
02:10:14,417 --> 02:10:16,518
And that's why we have to assume it as a value.

1354
02:10:16,898 --> 02:10:20,197
Like if you want to have any notion of human dignity, you have to have faith in it.

1355
02:10:20,357 --> 02:10:21,438
Science can never prove that.

1356
02:10:21,477 --> 02:10:23,317
And I say the worst for science.

1357
02:10:23,577 --> 02:10:30,117
And so that's where I disagree, I guess, with you is I'm not a truth seeker in that sense where I'll follow the empirical thread wherever it leaves.

1358
02:10:30,117 --> 02:10:49,058
Because if the empirical thread purports to lead me to a realm where I'm now looking at some humans as having less dignity than others, I'll stop following the quote unquote empirical thread and fall back on my faith based value that humans are possessors of a metaphysical thing I call a soul and that can never be substantiated empirically.

1359
02:10:49,558 --> 02:10:49,577
Yeah.

1360
02:10:49,898 --> 02:10:54,037
But that's, I mean, it's, I'm not just, I mean, I guess I am disagreeing and just, I agree.

1361
02:10:54,157 --> 02:10:57,558
I see you have a framework and I guess my framework is just different where I'm not a truth seeker.

1362
02:10:58,058 --> 02:10:58,977
Well, if you're.

1363
02:11:00,117 --> 02:11:15,737
If you're measuring human dignity on metrics that are showing you that there's a difference in human dignity, but you fundamentally know that having a soul makes you equally worthy of dignity as anyone else, then you're just measuring the wrong shit.

1364
02:11:16,857 --> 02:11:19,157
Go ahead.

1365
02:11:19,157 --> 02:11:45,398
So as a spring worry off of what you just said, I think that if you want to get to a world where human dignity is maximized, if that's the world that you want to, you actually need truth and truth-seeking as a fundamental sacred value.

1366
02:11:45,398 --> 02:11:45,917
Yes.

1367
02:11:46,037 --> 02:11:46,697
And here's why.

1368
02:11:46,697 --> 02:11:54,417
because the best measure we have for whether a society or a group is good or bad,

1369
02:11:54,717 --> 02:11:59,157
and I think you can actually measure these things, is well-being.

1370
02:11:59,697 --> 02:12:06,518
And we can empirically measure well-being such that you can imagine some societies

1371
02:12:06,518 --> 02:12:12,737
that create peaks of well-being and some that are trials of well-being.

1372
02:12:12,737 --> 02:12:28,598
But the only way to do that is the same way that we would measure, say, your health. If you posit that we can empirically measure whether or not you are objectively healthy or not, then you can do the same for psychological and spiritual well-being.

1373
02:12:28,598 --> 02:12:32,998
These are the kinds of surveys, actually, granted, I use in a lot of my work.

1374
02:12:33,617 --> 02:12:44,998
And I'm using at the network state to see how the network state – this is a great scientific experiment we're going to be running, actually, as soon as I get ethics approval, which is ongoing right now.

1375
02:12:45,917 --> 02:12:50,277
Treating the network state and the network school as the intervention.

1376
02:12:50,277 --> 02:12:54,277
So you got people pre and then we're measuring sleep.

1377
02:12:55,037 --> 02:12:56,357
We're measuring activity.

1378
02:12:56,518 --> 02:13:02,637
We're measuring their day to day sense of life evaluation of and other metrics that corroborate well-being.

1379
02:13:02,797 --> 02:13:14,958
That is the empirical use of the right branch to derive and to come to a empirical understanding of how to maximize human dignity and human well-being.

1380
02:13:15,077 --> 02:13:17,257
You can't do it without truth.

1381
02:13:18,077 --> 02:13:24,637
You can't do it without truth, but you can't maximize well-being in the correct way if you don't have a superordinate value that everybody matters.

1382
02:13:24,637 --> 02:13:42,197
For example, if the aggregate well-being of a society was increased by having a minority slave caste, then as long as the well-being was overall maximized, then the truth seeker who maximized overall well-being would say, we should have a minority slave caste because it's going to maximize overall well-being.

1383
02:13:42,197 --> 02:13:53,477
But if you have the value that even if overall well-being is maximized by having a minority slave caste, we're not going to do that because there's something greater than well-being, which is dignity and equality.

1384
02:13:53,477 --> 02:13:57,558
Yeah, and also neither of us are utilitarian, so neither of us would do that.

1385
02:13:58,317 --> 02:13:59,217
There's not a alternative.

1386
02:13:59,477 --> 02:14:02,058
I'm not going to establish that like the opening 10 minutes.

1387
02:14:03,197 --> 02:14:03,917
Yeah, yeah.

1388
02:14:04,297 --> 02:14:08,177
So it's a great idea, and I'm not anti-true.

1389
02:14:08,197 --> 02:14:09,898
I say that rhetorically, dramatically.

1390
02:14:09,898 --> 02:14:12,977
I'm not anti-truth.

1391
02:14:13,217 --> 02:14:14,357
I just, at the end of the day,

1392
02:14:14,417 --> 02:14:15,938
I think I am kind of just like,

1393
02:14:15,998 --> 02:14:17,098
I got some ignorant values.

1394
02:14:17,177 --> 02:14:18,018
I'm never going to give up.

1395
02:14:20,177 --> 02:14:22,977
And that ignorant value again

1396
02:14:22,977 --> 02:14:24,498
is that humans are morally equal.

1397
02:14:24,938 --> 02:14:26,077
Grant just wants to own slaves.

1398
02:14:26,637 --> 02:14:28,137
No, I'm saying the opposite thing

1399
02:14:28,137 --> 02:14:29,977
that if you maximize well-being,

1400
02:14:30,417 --> 02:14:31,717
then you are in the position

1401
02:14:31,717 --> 02:14:34,477
where if a society has the most well-being

1402
02:14:34,477 --> 02:14:36,237
and it has slaves,

1403
02:14:36,237 --> 02:14:37,297
then you got to endorse that

1404
02:14:37,297 --> 02:14:38,157
because it's not,

1405
02:14:38,757 --> 02:14:39,438
I mean, you're not,

1406
02:14:39,898 --> 02:14:40,577
Concerned.

1407
02:14:40,577 --> 02:14:41,137
That's presupposing.

1408
02:14:42,657 --> 02:14:44,477
I'm sorry, Grant.

1409
02:14:44,498 --> 02:14:45,297
I've got to push back.

1410
02:14:45,398 --> 02:14:45,657
Yes.

1411
02:14:45,938 --> 02:15:06,817
Any society, unless you're making the category error of only measuring those who are benefiting from the slaves, the lives of the slaves are, I would predict, if we were creating a scientific hypothesis, I would predict would drain the wellness of the overall mean of the population such that that would never be the winning society.

1412
02:15:06,817 --> 02:15:08,598
Especially if you're measuring human dignity.

1413
02:15:08,598 --> 02:15:34,317
You don't measure the dignity, though. You measure the well-being. And so you just I agree with you, though. It's something you would have to measure scientifically. We couldn't presume it one way or the other. There are some like studies of I don't I can't say studies. I've heard discussions of caste societies where people come to access, accept their caste and believe that they are inferior. And so if you interviewed them, they might say, I like being a pariah or I'm simply a pariah and that's who I am or whatever.

1414
02:15:34,317 --> 02:15:50,337
Whereas overall, you know, someone looking at it from the outside might say, I don't accept that someone should have to accept that even if they've come to be brainwashed into it and so feel a sense of well-being from it because I believe that human dignity is superordinate to an increase in well-being.

1415
02:15:51,797 --> 02:15:54,357
What's the difference between dignity and well-being?

1416
02:15:55,018 --> 02:15:56,117
Dignity is unmeasurable.

1417
02:15:56,317 --> 02:15:57,157
It's a moral quality.

1418
02:15:57,377 --> 02:15:58,857
It's a value, not a fact.

1419
02:15:59,518 --> 02:16:04,297
But I could tell you whether or not I feel as though I have dignity.

1420
02:16:04,317 --> 02:16:09,598
what do you mean by dignity that's the thing it's never i can't cut you open and find the dignity

1421
02:16:09,598 --> 02:16:13,958
but you can't cut me open and find my well-being spiritually you can't cut me open and find my

1422
02:16:13,958 --> 02:16:20,518
well-being mentally and so in david's point you can measure that though with um like some sort of

1423
02:16:20,518 --> 02:16:25,998
like interview instrumentation are those just the composite factors that give you dignity

1424
02:16:25,998 --> 02:16:31,438
maybe there's a philosophical those things are going to be my prediction here yeah me relying on

1425
02:16:31,438 --> 02:16:36,737
my worldview that the truth branch is important, my prediction would be that those things would

1426
02:16:36,737 --> 02:16:44,877
be tightly correlated, that a sense of dignity is intrinsically linked to the quote-unquote

1427
02:16:44,877 --> 02:16:52,277
things that you could measure spiritually about autonomy, control over one's life,

1428
02:16:52,697 --> 02:16:58,697
meaningful and valuable relationships in one's life, day-to-day work that has purpose and

1429
02:16:58,697 --> 02:17:04,438
function and provides value. All these things are going to create an index that I think is

1430
02:17:04,438 --> 02:17:10,518
empirically trackable. And I think and well-being would be tightly correlated if we were to run this

1431
02:17:10,518 --> 02:17:13,797
properly, like a really, really clean, steady design.

1432
02:17:14,357 --> 02:17:21,497
Can you say any more about that? Like, do you have like a start date? Do you have anything

1433
02:17:21,497 --> 02:17:25,758
that you can talk about as far as like, what are the components that you're measuring? How many

1434
02:17:25,758 --> 02:17:31,678
people are going to be involved like if you can yeah i know you might want to keep stuff

1435
02:17:31,678 --> 02:17:37,377
keep stuff in your pocket but if you can please do uh share what you want to do here i'm pretty

1436
02:17:37,377 --> 02:17:44,277
sure i mean so biology and i had uh the office hours and i in five minutes i pitched this steady

1437
02:17:44,277 --> 02:17:51,718
to him and he was like that sounds cool and then um man to his and jackson's credit we kept the

1438
02:17:51,718 --> 02:17:56,678
conversation going on discord and we had it ironed out in like five days of just back and

1439
02:17:56,678 --> 02:18:02,018
forth messaging on what it would look like what would be required and so this is the gist of it

1440
02:18:02,018 --> 02:18:08,678
you guys got the the core set design is the network school as an intervention right so it's just pre

1441
02:18:08,678 --> 02:18:17,657
and post you're measuring everyone's um you know like different physiological and uh well-being

1442
02:18:17,657 --> 02:18:25,277
measures, their social networks, their different aspects of their identity, worldview, you're

1443
02:18:25,277 --> 02:18:29,877
controlling for age, you're controlling for sex, you're controlling for employment, socioeconomic

1444
02:18:29,877 --> 02:18:32,797
status, and you're getting all that data beforehand.

1445
02:18:33,397 --> 02:18:36,338
Then they get the network school as the quote unquote treatment.

1446
02:18:38,037 --> 02:18:46,138
And while they're there, so me, my team goes in with a bunch of the stuff that's been my

1447
02:18:46,138 --> 02:18:48,037
bread and butter scientifically for the past decade.

1448
02:18:48,237 --> 02:18:50,617
So the stuff I worked with,

1449
02:18:50,657 --> 02:18:51,558
with the Hadza were,

1450
02:18:51,737 --> 02:18:53,157
they were called actigraphs.

1451
02:18:53,157 --> 02:18:55,638
They're effectively like super science Fitbits.

1452
02:18:55,897 --> 02:18:59,157
They can quite accurately measure sleep,

1453
02:18:59,957 --> 02:19:00,638
sleep efficiency,

1454
02:19:01,317 --> 02:19:03,277
sleep quality and circadian function.

1455
02:19:03,737 --> 02:19:06,037
And these things are prime drivers,

1456
02:19:06,197 --> 02:19:10,457
obviously of like the core metrics of health and wellbeing.

1457
02:19:11,377 --> 02:19:14,317
And I know actually you guys have dropped sleep as a concept before.

1458
02:19:14,317 --> 02:19:17,317
the second book which is going through production now

1459
02:19:17,317 --> 02:19:19,157
The Sleepless Ape is all about the evolution

1460
02:19:19,157 --> 02:19:20,098
of sleep in our species

1461
02:19:20,098 --> 02:19:22,518
I'll make sure and send you guys a couple copies

1462
02:19:22,518 --> 02:19:24,758
not for podcast purposes

1463
02:19:24,758 --> 02:19:26,617
just because I think you guys will get a kick out of it

1464
02:19:26,617 --> 02:19:29,277
so the idea here

1465
02:19:29,277 --> 02:19:31,037
is to put these super

1466
02:19:31,037 --> 02:19:32,218
science fit bits

1467
02:19:32,218 --> 02:19:33,838
and then if I can

1468
02:19:33,838 --> 02:19:36,377
I'm outreaching to a good buddy of mine

1469
02:19:36,377 --> 02:19:39,077
a collaborator of mine who does hormonal biomarkers

1470
02:19:39,077 --> 02:19:41,138
as well and we can get things like

1471
02:19:41,138 --> 02:19:42,478
cortisol

1472
02:19:42,478 --> 02:19:45,277
we can get

1473
02:19:45,277 --> 02:19:46,697
testosterone

1474
02:19:46,697 --> 02:19:48,197
estradiol

1475
02:19:48,197 --> 02:19:49,718
all these really cool measures

1476
02:19:49,718 --> 02:19:52,197
we'll do that as a

1477
02:19:52,197 --> 02:19:54,297
subsample of those who are doing

1478
02:19:54,297 --> 02:19:55,357
the earn burn learn

1479
02:19:55,357 --> 02:19:58,457
sort of like actually engaging

1480
02:19:58,457 --> 02:20:00,478
in it and there'll be participants enrolled in the study

1481
02:20:00,478 --> 02:20:02,417
and then for the subsection

1482
02:20:02,417 --> 02:20:03,357
that leaves

1483
02:20:03,357 --> 02:20:05,537
we'll have an exit survey

1484
02:20:05,537 --> 02:20:08,497
and then we'll have a longitudinal for the long

1485
02:20:08,497 --> 02:20:10,478
termers and the whole

1486
02:20:10,478 --> 02:20:11,957
idea here is to map

1487
02:20:12,478 --> 02:20:30,537
These objective measures of health and well-being with the network school as the primary intervention to see if it has any positive driving effects after controlling for key metrics like age, sex, socioeconomic status, country of origin.

1488
02:20:30,537 --> 02:20:37,297
To see if after you control over all those things statistically, if it's actually driving up well-being.

1489
02:20:38,077 --> 02:20:41,138
Which is fundamental to bringing it back full circle.

1490
02:20:41,417 --> 02:20:41,577
Yeah.

1491
02:20:41,577 --> 02:20:45,997
Is literally what I'm trying to say is like, I think we can measure this stuff.

1492
02:20:46,357 --> 02:20:46,497
Yeah.

1493
02:20:46,497 --> 02:20:51,617
I think we can measure whether or not biology is actually making the foundation or not.

1494
02:20:51,617 --> 02:20:57,277
Like that's a, it's a hypothesis and we, it's all supposition until we measure it.

1495
02:20:58,377 --> 02:21:00,457
To final thought on this.

1496
02:21:01,897 --> 02:21:06,338
Lucas mentioned the, the world series, right.

1497
02:21:06,638 --> 02:21:07,938
With the Royals.

1498
02:21:08,178 --> 02:21:09,877
And I remember that play.

1499
02:21:09,877 --> 02:21:12,457
and when

1500
02:21:12,457 --> 02:21:14,598
Grant when you said by what evidence

1501
02:21:14,598 --> 02:21:15,657
I was like well Lucas

1502
02:21:15,657 --> 02:21:18,737
said by what evidence something that

1503
02:21:18,737 --> 02:21:20,638
he definitely didn't want to believe was

1504
02:21:20,638 --> 02:21:22,617
true reverted his

1505
02:21:22,617 --> 02:21:23,978
opinion on it and that was

1506
02:21:23,978 --> 02:21:26,438
the measurement in feet

1507
02:21:26,438 --> 02:21:28,277
by how far off

1508
02:21:28,277 --> 02:21:30,478
he was

1509
02:21:30,478 --> 02:21:32,297
running the bases so

1510
02:21:32,297 --> 02:21:33,577
I don't know like

1511
02:21:33,577 --> 02:21:35,797
the core here is that

1512
02:21:35,797 --> 02:21:38,417
empirical measurement hypothesis

1513
02:21:38,417 --> 02:21:44,877
testing and truth seeking as a sacred value or something we i we lynch pit we connect to our

1514
02:21:44,877 --> 02:21:50,218
identity yeah if we don't have that as a species guys at some level whether it's a foundation

1515
02:21:50,218 --> 02:21:57,357
pocket somewhere or something we're screwed yeah we're i think our number our numbers up and you

1516
02:21:57,357 --> 02:22:04,518
know what i've taken psilocybin that's okay it's all right if our species goes extinct so is 99.9

1517
02:22:04,518 --> 02:22:10,457
percent of all life on this planet and other forms of consciousness will emerge it will be okay you

1518
02:22:10,457 --> 02:22:16,617
know what i mean like i'm not i'm not too worried about it but at the end of the day if you think

1519
02:22:16,617 --> 02:22:21,638
there's something cool about human consciousness and we want to preserve it and preserve its light

1520
02:22:21,638 --> 02:22:29,377
for future generations so that different iterations can improve upon it then i think it's a crucial

1521
02:22:29,377 --> 02:22:36,558
component so do you have a uh first off does your scheme for the network school does it need a do i

1522
02:22:36,558 --> 02:22:43,157
need to come back do i need they need a shaman and and i would go ahead go ahead i don't know

1523
02:22:43,157 --> 02:22:46,657
now we're getting down to brass tacks i'm just trying to get i'm just trying to get paid in your

1524
02:22:46,657 --> 02:22:54,797
study dude um you know pending i i there's no reason i shouldn't have a job at the university

1525
02:22:54,797 --> 02:23:00,018
Toronto here and I won't get this a couple big grants that I'm trying to apply for right now.

1526
02:23:00,438 --> 02:23:04,777
If I can get a there's one I'm applying for in particular that should be enough to fund this

1527
02:23:04,777 --> 02:23:10,497
study for a few years for several years and that's where things could get really interesting.

1528
02:23:10,678 --> 02:23:16,457
We could actually introduce I think as a secondary study we could introduce things like well what

1529
02:23:16,457 --> 02:23:22,277
happens with a cohort that we start playing around with some of the things that we were talking about

1530
02:23:22,277 --> 02:23:32,237
like ritual initiation and being mindful of how the school scales in numbers.

1531
02:23:32,237 --> 02:23:36,297
That's something we didn't get to talk about today, but I would love to talk to you in the future,

1532
02:23:36,457 --> 02:23:41,277
is that there's this value at 150 where things get really dicey.

1533
02:23:42,138 --> 02:23:47,438
When groups scale beyond 150, it's precipitous.

1534
02:23:47,438 --> 02:23:59,497
And so you have to be super mindful about the ways in which you help cultivate healthy growing of the tree and don't snuff out the life before it has a chance to really grow.

1535
02:23:59,897 --> 02:24:06,938
And so it would be great to have you out there, Lucas, and we could collaborate together on this project of improving human wellness.

1536
02:24:07,237 --> 02:24:08,018
You're awesome, man.

1537
02:24:08,258 --> 02:24:09,938
Like, this is being so fantastic.

1538
02:24:10,077 --> 02:24:13,758
And I would say Lucas has a Ph.D. essentially in rituals.

1539
02:24:13,897 --> 02:24:15,438
He was working on an app called Rituals.

1540
02:24:16,218 --> 02:24:16,617
Wow.

1541
02:24:16,617 --> 02:24:46,598
Like three years ago, because he so deeply believes that people need to have that in their life. So he's been, I told you this in a DM that Lucas has been doing this wherever he goes. He was doing it in Washington State when I was living up there. He came and visited me where he went from knowing just me when he got there to like I mentioned, like a month later, inviting a whole yoga studio to my tiny apartment for a party. And they showed up like people that didn't even know him were so like, they just saw this is a person who's creating a

1542
02:24:46,617 --> 02:24:49,758
a type of community that doesn't exist and we want to be part of that.

1543
02:24:49,838 --> 02:24:50,718
It was really cool to see.

1544
02:24:51,417 --> 02:24:51,817
So yeah,

1545
02:24:51,817 --> 02:24:53,598
it's interesting that you and I both have like my,

1546
02:24:53,718 --> 02:24:56,018
my thought on rituals is more of like,

1547
02:24:56,397 --> 02:25:04,058
you need to do the same thing often so that you can offload the mental brain

1548
02:25:04,058 --> 02:25:08,598
power that it requires to make all those decisions so that you can focus on

1549
02:25:08,598 --> 02:25:11,518
doing the things that are truly important that are going to move you forward

1550
02:25:11,518 --> 02:25:11,938
in life.

1551
02:25:12,978 --> 02:25:14,178
Two quick things I want to,

1552
02:25:14,178 --> 02:25:23,138
You talked about knowing, and then you've also talked about really kind of leaning into sort of the physics of things with like Jason Lowry.

1553
02:25:23,577 --> 02:25:27,138
So you have a colleague at the University of Toronto, John Verveke.

1554
02:25:28,157 --> 02:25:29,558
He's still there, right?

1555
02:25:29,877 --> 02:25:42,157
And I was just curious if you've explored his work, because when you're talking about knowing, it's like diving right into his awakening from the meaning crisis, like a 50 video lecture series.

1556
02:25:42,157 --> 02:25:45,797
And it just sounded like you've been experienced in that.

1557
02:25:45,938 --> 02:25:59,758
And then on the physics side of things, as you talked about circadian rhythm and stuff like that and the importance of that, the guy right now, I would say kind of leading the charge in the physics of biology would be Jack Cruz.

1558
02:26:00,357 --> 02:26:08,997
And I'm curious if you are familiar with the work of either of those two individuals, because if you're not, then you're already in the same vein of these people.

1559
02:26:09,518 --> 02:26:10,438
That's fascinating.

1560
02:26:10,438 --> 02:26:12,117
No, I'm unfamiliar with their work.

1561
02:26:12,157 --> 02:26:13,537
Dude, okay, man.

1562
02:26:14,098 --> 02:26:15,457
I've got homework to do.

1563
02:26:15,857 --> 02:26:18,537
That and reading the Satoshi papers, I just cracked it open,

1564
02:26:18,737 --> 02:26:23,197
and I cannot wait to get into that because I'm a fan of Natalie Selinsky's.

1565
02:26:23,317 --> 02:26:25,497
A conversation between you two would be that.

1566
02:26:25,558 --> 02:26:26,377
That would be phenomenal.

1567
02:26:26,797 --> 02:26:26,957
Yeah.

1568
02:26:27,558 --> 02:26:32,438
She was just too far above our level, but you two, I would watch that so much.

1569
02:26:32,577 --> 02:26:33,317
That would be fantastic.

1570
02:26:33,797 --> 02:26:35,577
Two anthropologists talking about that.

1571
02:26:35,638 --> 02:26:36,277
It would be fantastic.

1572
02:26:36,877 --> 02:26:37,897
Absolutely incredible.

1573
02:26:38,138 --> 02:26:39,058
I'll throw it back to you.

1574
02:26:39,058 --> 02:26:42,098
Anything you want to say before I sign us off here?

1575
02:26:42,157 --> 02:26:55,558
No, not at all. You guys, besides thank you very much, you guys, again, the proof of work on the book. It was such a pleasure to see you guys work through it with such an open mind and with such energy.

1576
02:26:55,558 --> 02:27:03,397
and I you know ever since the network school I was I knew that our paths would cross sooner or

1577
02:27:03,397 --> 02:27:07,678
later I just didn't know it'd be so fast and so hard and I'm really excited about it we'll keep

1578
02:27:07,678 --> 02:27:12,777
the conversation going because I really do think there's something special going on out there and

1579
02:27:12,777 --> 02:27:18,857
it'd be fun to collaborate and to figure out what the mechanisms are that could you know improve its

1580
02:27:18,857 --> 02:27:24,377
chances and its odds because it's a great experiment that we're running as a species yeah cool there

1581
02:27:24,377 --> 02:27:27,758
There truly is something special going on at the network school.

1582
02:27:27,758 --> 02:27:38,117
And it's because of intent, but it's also because of just utterly beautiful people like Jackson Stegger, who is an absolutely incredible individual.

1583
02:27:38,117 --> 02:27:53,758
When I sat down and I was thinking about like an honor group for myself, he was like the only guy outside of Grant that I felt was part of an honor group for me that was not my band.

1584
02:27:54,377 --> 02:27:58,197
You know, just that is those words right there.

1585
02:27:58,317 --> 02:28:01,577
You just summon a magical incantation like that.

1586
02:28:01,577 --> 02:28:13,117
That to me, like if you if the network school has human beings like you that feel about each other as the foundation to it, as the pillars, it will succeed.

1587
02:28:13,577 --> 02:28:23,397
Yeah, it will have much harder road to travel if it doesn't if it can't cultivate those foundational honor group cells.

1588
02:28:23,397 --> 02:28:31,758
that keep the thing going so i yeah that's that's a really high praise um for jackson there and for

1589
02:28:31,758 --> 02:28:36,297
you too grant like that's that's a friendship summoning spell right there that's awesome

1590
02:28:36,297 --> 02:28:44,897
i do i i uh i want to i i recently did a psilocybin trip and i came out of it and i

1591
02:28:44,897 --> 02:28:49,598
one of the things that i want to do is like i because i had read your book and i was like i

1592
02:28:49,598 --> 02:28:54,598
have to write down all the people that I love. Like I have to like, okay, who are the hundred?

1593
02:28:54,777 --> 02:28:59,317
There's probably, honestly, for me, there's probably like 150 people that I think are just

1594
02:28:59,317 --> 02:29:06,178
utterly incredible. And then how do I get, how do I get 10 of them to go buy cabins in the

1595
02:29:06,178 --> 02:29:14,697
mountains with me and, you know, and do something for community. Right. Yeah. So anyways, um,

1596
02:29:14,697 --> 02:29:22,457
God, it's been an absolute pleasure. David, thank you so much. Just for everybody listening,

1597
02:29:22,737 --> 02:29:29,438
go read Our Tribal Future and dig into it. I know that we have Bitcoin in the name of this podcast,

1598
02:29:29,438 --> 02:29:35,857
but this is what, you know, my realization was that Bitcoin is not about money. It's about

1599
02:29:35,857 --> 02:29:41,357
truth-seeking. And what we're doing here is we're truth-seeking from a society perspective,

1600
02:29:41,357 --> 02:29:46,377
a community perspective, from spiritual well-being, dignity.

1601
02:29:47,157 --> 02:29:49,297
And we're trying to find truth there.

1602
02:29:49,558 --> 02:29:55,037
So for all of you that have made it to this far, we appreciate it.

1603
02:29:55,258 --> 02:29:56,297
Thank you for listening.

1604
02:29:56,438 --> 02:29:57,138
David, thank you.

1605
02:29:57,217 --> 02:29:58,277
Grant, as always.

1606
02:29:58,297 --> 02:29:59,678
Yeah, I would say get the book, man.

1607
02:29:59,717 --> 02:30:00,537
It's so fantastic.

1608
02:30:00,758 --> 02:30:01,397
I loved it.

1609
02:30:01,497 --> 02:30:06,277
And there's just not many books that are truth-seeking in the sense where you lay out the evolutionary history,

1610
02:30:06,277 --> 02:30:08,497
and it does take, I think,

1611
02:30:08,857 --> 02:30:10,237
courage to talk about

1612
02:30:10,237 --> 02:30:12,457
Balaji and Jason Lowry and these people

1613
02:30:12,457 --> 02:30:14,478
who are not within the

1614
02:30:14,478 --> 02:30:16,558
mainstream of the type of studies that you

1615
02:30:16,558 --> 02:30:18,598
do. And so the book is a courageous

1616
02:30:18,598 --> 02:30:20,558
affair and it's a beautiful book. I loved it.

1617
02:30:20,817 --> 02:30:22,537
I want to throw out mainstream and just

1618
02:30:22,537 --> 02:30:24,157
label it for what it is, which is a

1619
02:30:24,157 --> 02:30:25,357
e-logic being captured.

1620
02:30:26,117 --> 02:30:28,478
Just like the cowards hiding within

1621
02:30:28,478 --> 02:30:30,638
the system. And this book is not that. It's very good.

1622
02:30:30,797 --> 02:30:32,598
Thanks so much, man. I love the conversation.

1623
02:30:33,098 --> 02:30:34,077
Thank you so much.