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I could wish for but one thing for you, that you be curious in all that you do.

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Love like a flower

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Just wants to grow

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When knowledge like your heart

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Just wants to be known

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If you like, please subscribe.

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This is Bitcoin Study Sessions.

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Well, so we're here today for another Bitcoin study sessions. We have a special guest, Brom from Bitcoin for Millennials at Brom K at Twitter has dropped in for this study session.

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What we're going to do today is we finished Software, a novel theory on power projection and the national strategic significance of Bitcoin. That's Jason Lowry's thesis.

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Lucas and I discussed it in depth chapter by chapter

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Bram is familiar, Bram is familiar with the thesis as well

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has been engaging with it on Twitter and watched a lot of the videos

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read a bit of the thesis

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so I'm really happy too that we're going to have this chance to discuss it

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kind of in a holistic way

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instead of kind of breaking it down into its minutiae

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we're going to give definitely just like three dudes discussing the thesis overall

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and I'm really excited for this

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I'm really excited to have Bram too

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So if you haven't checked out his videos, Lucas noted this.

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There's just a lot of joy when Brom is interviewing somebody and there's a conviviality there that I'm really happy that he's here today with us because that's kind of what we want to do is, with Bitcoin Study Sessions, is really dig into kind of the great books and great thoughts of Bitcoin and do it in a great books fashion of just going into deep conversations.

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So I'm going to give Brahm a chance to introduce himself in a second, but we're going to do

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that organically because the methodology of this book actually kind of presents itself

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to you as a way to introduce yourself in the context of the thesis.

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So what I'll do is kind of give a very, very quick kind of helicopter overview of the thesis.

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Just if you're listening kind of naively for the first time, you have no idea what it's

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about.

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And then I'll kind of pitch that question to Brahm to allow him to introduce himself in

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that context that I mentioned kind of more organically.

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So the general thesis of softwar is that the nature of warfare historically is as physical power projection to settle disputes over property.

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However, humans dislike violence, and so we have tried to reduce the need for using physical power to settle disputes by use of something that we can call abstract power, which is rank-based, invisible power that a belief system delegates to people when they subscribe to it.

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A priest, for example, in a religion can say who's good and bad, who has access to the afterlife because they comply with that belief system. Politicians and judges in a nation state with rule of law determines who gets access to what property based on their compliance with the rule of law as written.

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But those abstract power-based hierarchy have led to oppressive god kings, they've led to nation states that have nepotistically allocated resources to friends and family. And in the past, real physical power has been necessary to break up and discipline those abstract power hierarchies.

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We've had revolution in the United States to create the United States, and that's happened around the world. We've had invasions where abstract power-based hierarchies were destroyed.

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So the thesis of this thesis is kind of something like the proof-of-work aspect of Bitcoin is a new form of cyber warfare, a way to project real physical power into cyberspace instead of relying on abstract encoded restraints.

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In that way, it's revolutionary in that it is a form of novel warfare called that Lowry calls soft war, a way to use real physical power to dissolve real disputes, but with no human in the loop who can be injured.

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So today, I hope we're going to get into maybe the forms of abstract power-based hierarchies, the nature of software administrators as god kings, the future of human out-of-the-loop warfare, and Bitcoin as a world computer, because that's something that I struggle with, and that's part of this thesis.

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So the methodology that I think allows one to insert themselves into this discussion and hopefully will allow Brahm to tell how he came to Bitcoin, too.

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The methodology of Jason's thesis, he gives a section describing how did I come up with this idea?

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So he used something called grounded theory methodology, which is where you begin with the data, not with a theory.

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You come in without prejudice, naively, with your own perspective as a person and whatever education you have, but without an overarching theory of what the thing is, of what Bitcoin is in this instance.

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And then you begin to organize that data to form concepts that help describe it and then to abstract those concepts into categories that describe those concepts.

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And from the categories, you come at this overarching theory of what the thing is.

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So you move from specific data to general theory.

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it's a way to generate a novel theoretical framework and not to test a specific hypothesis.

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But again, the key point is you don't begin with the preconceived theory. You don't begin with the

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idea that Bitcoin is money. Bitcoin is something you look at from the perspective of economics or

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finances. Instead, Lowry came to it with his military theory perspective and kind of a general

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vague idea, a curiosity that Bitcoin had something more to say to us than simply some

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novel use case or a different use case than simply what we'd considered as previously,

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which is as money. So Brahm, I'm curious, what perspectives do you think, like if you were

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coming at Bitcoin from a grounded theory perspective and kind of jettisoning, like the

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way we've looked at it as a coin, as financial, as economic in nature, like, and just bringing

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all of yourself to the table and trying to reorganize and rethink about Bitcoin,

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what perspectives would you bring when you brought your whole self to it?

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And how would you think about Bitcoin?

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Yeah, thanks so much for this introduction.

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And I'm super happy to be here.

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I love how you approach this.

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Just you explaining this again reminded me of what captured me when I dove into this thesis.

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And I think it's really nice to have a conversation like this

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because we can go a bit deeper into what I think is a difficult future conceptualization, right?

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Like I think Bitcoin is that in general.

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That's why I think it's hard to grasp.

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But this is like an application of Bitcoin and what it could mean, right?

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So I think this even goes a bit further.

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So I love to have the opportunity with you guys to discuss this freely, I think.

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You know, while you were talking, the first thing I thought of, which was a big realization point for me,

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is when you just said, you know, there are a lot of, like, abstract rules also around power with nations,

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nations but also you know consumers and banks or consumers and companies you know or legislators or

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whatever right like a lot of the agreements that we have are on paper they are just words on paper

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you know i am the custodian of your money as a bank and i will do blah blah blah you know whatever

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and you say okay and then you you know put your signature below it and then you know you've

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outsource the certain responsibility over a certain thing and then you're like well okay now

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i can sleep and now i can sleep you know and i don't have to worry about this thing but the

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the reality shows us that you actually have to worry about you know all the contractual

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agreements you have as specifically with banks for example right but like one of the

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big realizations i had was um when i actually listened to a joe rogan episode and i don't know

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who the guest was, but they talked about war and stuff like that.

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And they had a quote by, I think it was Madeleine Albright,

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from an interview that she did where she was asked,

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like, was the death of, like, 500,000 children in, like, the first Gulf War,

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was that something that, was that justified or something like that?

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And then her response was something like, yeah, according to our calculations,

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you know that that was justified something like that well that's a horrible thing to say obviously

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but but rogan and the guest were talking about this like what a psychopath like how could you

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sleep at night so like they were judging and judging and judging but then at one point they

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say like well you know that it's really easy to judge from a distance right so they might be right

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in in saying that you know what what she said is gross obviously but the point was that from

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from a distance, it's always easy to say, like, if I would be in that position of power,

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I would never do that, right? Like, my morals are better than this person, etc. Like, it's really

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easy to complain like that, plus kind of like say, right, talk, say that you would be a more moral

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person and you would never do that, right? And then they started talking about, but that is not

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really a fair thing because you are not in that seat right you are not in that position so you're

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trying to like um make yourself uh like in some sort of higher value than than than you are and

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that is talk right just like everything that we write down and sign and just talk like it's just

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talk and what i love is that the the two big realizations that came from that was like everyone

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one is corruptible. Like if you are in that position, if you are in a position in a system

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where you could use your position to have, to, to create an advantage for your personal individual

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life, you would probably do it. You know, like if you have children and you have small children,

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it's all me, me, me, it's all survival. Right. So the self, like I would rather for you guys to die

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than for me to die. Right. Like just the whole self-preservation idea. So once you realize that

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everyone in essence is corruptible i'm doing air quotes corruptible because if they have an

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opportunity within a certain system to corrupt that system in order for their self-preservation

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in whatever way you would probably do it you know we can still discuss um around that but

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just in general for me the realization to realize that okay once the opportunity arises we are

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probably all corruptible that is not a nice realization but i think from that um you know

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also doing my studies around bitcoin etc i realized okay if we just accept that that is what it is

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then we can also accept that all these verbal agreements or abstracted you know written

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agreements like i will do no harm because i said so are are all nonsense they are all talk and no

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walk and I think what Bitcoin introduces with the proof of work is that you have to walk your talk

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basically you cannot you cannot bullshit a system in which you operate because there is a way to

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enforce your holdings intentions promises whatever and I think so if this doesn't make

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sense no no this is yeah this is the base level realization i think that um lowry comes from is

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that physical power the projection of physical power underlies life itself he starts with this

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evolutionary story about the animals and right right and so and then he ties that to bitcoin

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like you're doing like we have the yeah you have to exercise and project physical power to obtain

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any sort of resource and to better yourself and bitcoin is a way to do that to constrain as you

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mentioned the types of deviated and corrupt abstract power that we see in our day-to-day

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life.

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You mentioned corporations that write these contracts that we think are completely transparent.

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So I mean, I think you're absolutely on base.

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Maybe to add to that, so you could, because as you said in the beginning, we don't really

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want to introduce Bitcoin, right?

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So I think it's more about, okay, so, you know, you and I have a written agreement and

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we both signed something, right?

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but you don't follow the agreements that we made.

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And then you could say, well, then we can go to court.

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I can say Grant and I had this agreement.

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Grant didn't do it.

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And then you say, well, but Bram wasn't clear.

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Whatever, we have some sort of dispute,

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but you also mentioned judges, et cetera.

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So you go from a certain level of abstraction

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to another level of abstraction to another level, right?

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And then if my money runs out, you still win

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or something like that, right?

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So it is, I don't want to say an illusion,

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but in some way you feel protected by,

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I'm doing air quotes again,

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agreements that we all agree to

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and that we can all use, right?

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And in summary, in a very short summary,

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that is the justice system, for example.

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Go ahead.

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No, but like what do you do

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when a tool emerges

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that can bypass all these abstractions, basically.

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And my opinion right now

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is that you cannot ignore the fact that that exists.

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And so because that exists,

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for example, related to this is, for example,

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gold versus Bitcoin.

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You can say gold has XYZ properties

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that Bitcoin has too,

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but you cannot ignore that Bitcoin

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And Bitcoin's application of these properties is far more superior.

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I can move a billion in Bitcoin for $3 instead of spending $50 million on transporting it physically if it was gold.

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So you cannot ignore, one, that Bitcoin exists, but you can also not ignore that the properties are superior.

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You can still have some dissonance that you don't want to accept it, but it's there.

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It exists.

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And because it exists, and in Bitcoin you can walk your talk.

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I call it walk your talk, right?

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You can say like, oh, I have XYZ Bitcoin.

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But if I ask you, show me, and you don't show me, then I know you don't have it.

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Because I know the option exists that you can show me, right?

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So there's some sort of forced transparency with kind of like some sort of like social layer around it where if I can force you to be transparent and you decide not to, I can decide to not deal with you anymore, basically.

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And that is a big contradiction to like the abstracted layered, you know, system that we generally participate in.

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Yeah.

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I want to jump in. I want to go back to what you were talking about very first, which is basically the explanation of all the inconvenient truths that we have to accept in order to have a rational discussion about this topic.

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And we have to accept war and we have to accept corruptibility.

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We have to accept immorality and we have to accept that there are belief structures that exist only because we say they exist.

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That's the only thing that supports it.

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Because we don't want to confront ourselves with these things that you just mentioned.

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We are abstracting them away so we don't have to touch them and talk about them.

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And well, they're they're inconvenient, mainly because I think of the labels that they have, like war is not a word that people like to talk about.

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They don't like to talk about everyone being corruptible because that means that they themselves are corruptible.

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They don't like to talk about their societies being morally infallible or more morally fallible because, you know, you don't you don't want to believe that.

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And so they are, you know, they're inconvenient truths.

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When I was reading Lowry's thesis, I mentally replaced a lot of words that he used with different words in my mind.

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And so like every time I saw war, I just replaced it with competition.

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And if you can do that, then that's it.

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It makes it a little easier to swallow.

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Every time I see corruptibility, I replace it with cleverness.

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And so like you you get placed at the top of the hierarchy and you're standing next to the money printer.

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It's a clever thing to do to print the money for yourself.

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Like, you know, and and if we if we can somehow bring ourselves to assign some goodness to the people that are doing those things, like not only not only are you corruptible because you're doing that thing, but also you're doing it for a good reason.

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We don't want to admit that, but you're doing it for the benefit of yourself and the people you love.

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And, you know, this is another inconvenient truth.

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Like, we all love people, but there's some people we love more than others.

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And we have a preference that we are going to put into place whenever we are allocating our resources and our time and our attention and our intentions.

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where if we are put in that position, just like anybody else, we are going to lovingly and cleverly

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use that position in order to provide security and safety for that circle of people that we

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love a little more than the rest of humanity. And so I, I like, I like trying to, I'm, I don't know,

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I'm a tenderhearted guy, I guess, you know, but I like trying to reframe it in that way,

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because then you don't have to necessarily put a negative connotation.

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I, yeah, I, I came to this, I came to this from studying, um, habits and daily rituals

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and, and things like that.

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And one of the books that was real foundational for me was James Clear's atomic habits.

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And in that book, he says, you don't rise to the level of your goals.

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you fall to the level of your systems. And I had that quote in my mind when I started looking at

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Bitcoin in the monetary system for my job. And I realized that, yeah, it's like we're trying to

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have like a good system, but we just can't. Like we're trying to do well, but the system itself

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is fallible and the system itself therefore innately corrupts the people that are in it.

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And the problem that we always have, which is this is what politics is. Everybody goes,

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this would work if only the people I agreed with were in power. If only we got those bad people out

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and put my good people in, this would be perfectly fine. And you're like, no, like, it's a dumpster

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fire. It doesn't matter what trash you throw in it, it's still going to burn, you know, so we have

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all these inconvenient truths that we, we do have to accept. And so I completely agree with what

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you're saying about having to, um, having to walk yourself through those acceptances.

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And, uh, yeah, I just kind of, I, I sort of proffer the, I guess the, the creative, the

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artist's tenderfoot, tenderhearted way of looking at those things from a different perspective.

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Maybe does that kind of align with where you're at?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Sorry, Grant, but so much to unpack.

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Like I, this is why I love Bitcoin.

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This is like talking now already to you guys makes me feel not alone in these thoughts, right?

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I absolutely love what you just said, Lucas, because that's what I wanted to say.

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Like, I also don't think it's malicious.

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It's not evil or something, right?

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It's just you get served a perverse incentive without you maybe even realizing it,

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and you capitalize on it for your personal perseverance, basically, right?

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And a lot of these people think they are doing the right thing.

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They don't understand that they're hijacked exactly, as you said, by the system in which they operate.

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They don't, like, literally the box, right?

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Like, interesting.

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I'm really into, like, all this consciousness stuff.

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And I don't know if you know this book, but you should study this, by the way.

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Stalking the Wild Pendulum.

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But when people say, like, think outside the box,

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you know these images where it's like a circle, like a square in a circle, right?

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And a circle is basically the spiritual realm and a square is the physical realm, right?

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And so thinking outside the box literally means think outside the system that you're operating in.

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Think outside of the paradigm that you're operating in.

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So I love what you said about they are being served perverse incentive within the system that they operate in, and they don't have the ability or they don't want to or whatever.

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They are not incentivized also if they profit from the system that they operate in to go outside and look at it and be like, this system doesn't really – this is a flawed system basically.

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Right.

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So I think yes again once you accept that these let call it a social interaction or just like the interaction between people just exists like that what we just mentioned that is okay

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I think that's a good thing to realize.

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But the system that we operate in is made by the same people,

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people like just us.

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We make the system in which we operate.

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And if that system is flawed, then there cannot really be,

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well let's call it a free market of competition when you said competition lucas right like the

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the the field on which we're playing is flawed basically right and it's corruptible for some

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people that that play that that game and i think for me that is where bitcoin comes in you know the

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the the trustlessness the apoliticalness the a religious umness like all these things it is just

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a system that when you adopt it, you basically move from a zero-sum game,

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the current paradigm that we operate in, where people that win do that at the expense of others,

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to a mutually beneficial game, or as Jeff Booth says it, he says, cooperative competitiveness,

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which I like to

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which basically

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and I just visualize it as like a football field

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or a soccer field, whatever

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but it's just a different field

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that's why it's a paradigm shift

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it's just a totally different system

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in which

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and it's a new paradigm

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in which we will have

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we have to grasp

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the fact that

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we've been rent seeking

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in this old system

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and we've been profiting of other people

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in this old system.

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Like in the current system,

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I live in a country that pillaged the world, okay?

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And I live in freedom because they did that.

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That's random that I'm here, you know,

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but not many people realize that.

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Like I can be poor in this country

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and be richer than most people in Bangladesh

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or something like that, right?

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Like that's just crazy.

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It's crazy.

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I'm lucky, but that's a crazy thought

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because the people in Bangladesh,

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sorry for everyone from Bangladesh,

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That's just a random example.

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Like, why am I better than these people?

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You know, why do I have that privilege to just randomly be born here, right?

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So I think we have to come to the realization, and that's why it's also really hard, and people don't want it,

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that if you move to this other system where everyone is equal, right, it's basically ring-fenced with Bitcoin, absolute scarcity, etc.

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Yeah, you have to provide real value in order to get a reward.

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And I think that's what many people, especially in the West, don't want because they have no clue what that looks like.

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But I think this same principle applies to, you know, eventually the software thesis that we're talking about.

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No, you are. It's incredible to see you and Lucas talk about it this way because I think you're wholly inhabiting Lowry's thesis here.

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Like the way that you describe Bitcoin is apolitical trustless.

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you would say even exogenous to a belief system in that it doesn't depend on whether you say you're

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a communist or a capitalist it operates the same way i mean that's lowry's thesis is that bitcoin

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is a form of warfare and that's what warfare is warfare is the thing that is outside of our

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beliefs about it it doesn't care what you say about it as physical power warfare operates the

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same on somebody who has abstract beliefs that say it's bad and the person has abstract beliefs

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that say it's good. Warfare is the common denominator. And so I think you're absolutely

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right. And to just a circle back and tie that to what you were saying, Lucas, that these the

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negative connotations that we ascribe to things like war, and then by extension, maybe something

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like Bitcoin, if it is a novel form of warfare, that's just as the result of an abstract power

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based hierarchy, that is defined good and bad in a certain way. We always we did our very beliefs

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about what is good and bad, what words are charged with negative valence, what words have a positive

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aura from the belief systems that we kind of unreflectively inhabit. Like that's the

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metacognitive point that Lowry makes throughout the thesis that we also need to step back beyond

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our beliefs and see that the things that we say about physical power and war are really, you know,

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as a result of an abstract power-based hierarchy that wants to prevent us from exercising those

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things, wants to keep us weak and self-domesticate us.

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Lowry suggests calling war primordial economics for the same reasons that you guys mentioned.

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It just shows the continuous line between a membrane over a hydrothermal sea vent fighting

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for resources to animals fighting for the carcass, like wolves fighting for the carcass

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of a deer to us fighting for resources nowadays.

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So there's that continuous amoral evolutionary line that connects warfare in the past with bodies on the ground to this novel form of warfare, soft war, that is hopefully going to enable us to keep using an amoral, trustless, apolitical, egalitarian, neutral, permissionless protocol that is a type of war, but that does not leave bodies on the ground.

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yeah i i want to jump in there's something brahm said that i wanted to uh wanted to poke on which

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was the idea that there's people in these fortunate countries that are benefiting from

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the previous history of the plundering of their ancestors and they are kind of um

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you know like you you look around the world and you're like yes i acknowledge that i have so much

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more than the people in Bangladesh or Indonesia or wherever. But that's about as far as people

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usually want to go when they're thinking about that, because they don't want to think about how

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they got there. And they don't really want to think about maybe switching sides with them. And

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they don't want to think about anything that's immoral about it. However, when I look around,

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so I've been traveling quite a bit for the last couple of years. And it's very easy to see the

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deterioration of society in all aspects in every place. And I've been in Morocco, Columbia,

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Washington, Texas, Arizona, Missouri, Kansas, everywhere that I've been, it's very clear

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that societies are coming down and they're really struggling. Even the prosperous societies,

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Austin, Texas, Seattle, Washington, you know, it's the first time I ever got to see a guy doing meth

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on a sidewalk at Tuesday, Tuesday morning at 11 o'clock out front of the T-Mobile headquarters.

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You know, that's, you're seeing that things are falling, even though you have these preordained

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benefits. And I think about it, when you listen to like Michael Saylor talk about this and Jack

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Mahlers, I think does a good job as well in really distilling everything in life into terms of energy,

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Like everything is energy. Food is just energy that we extract into our bodies. Gasoline is just energy that we use in order to transport ourselves. Houses are just potential energy that we use to protect ourselves from the kinetic energy of the weather.

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And when I think about how the dollar, which is the strongest currency in the world right now, has fallen, I believe, 99% from its original strength.

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and I compare that to the idea that electricity costs about eight cents a kilowatt hour.

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If I were to make that 99% cheaper, or actually it's more like 9,900% cheaper is the math that

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it works out to be, what could I do for all society? And I also think about how it raises up,

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Like in this situation, it's not as though the Americans are going to go up this much and the Bangladeshis are going to go up this much.

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And we're going to maintain this this disparate disparate difference between us.

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It's going to raise ships up all to the same level.

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And we're seeing that with Gladstein's work in putting Bitcoin miners and providing power to places that have previously never had power and using stranded energy and exporting that energy in the form of Bitcoin in order to bring wealth and catapult societies that are literally going from dirt floor huts to 1,000 megabits per unit.

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second, I believe that's the right, internet and, you know, power. And, you know, they have heat and

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they have air conditioning. They have all this, you know, free energy. So I think what we're doing

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is really releasing a lot of energy with Bitcoin and thus injecting it into the world in a way that

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almost globally immunizes us against this sort of immoral, corruptible type of system that we've

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been talking about, where we just, like you said, there's the box. And try as you might,

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you just can't change that box. You're just not going to win. The house always wins. It's like

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playing Monopoly. It's like going to gamble. There's somebody in charge. And you have to just

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get out of that and realize that it's not the somebody that's in charge that the problem is

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the whole structure of the system. And so opting out, taking the orange pill, whatever you want to

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call it, stepping outside of that system to acknowledge that there are some things that

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could really benefit the entire world. Were they just it? And also, the beautiful thing about

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Bitcoin is you don't have to adopt it. It's going to adopt itself. Like it's just mowing through the

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entire world and you can either get on the train or you can chase after it once it's past you and

351
00:32:58,313 --> 00:33:04,953
hope to ever catch up to it so yeah yeah yeah it's unignorable right like it exists and it's not going

352
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away and then you know all the fud and now black rock is going to make more blah blah like all that

353
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stuff is it's nonsense it's nonsense because the original version the og is is is is already

354
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everywhere, right?

355
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You can fork off tomorrow and make

356
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grand coin. Nobody cares.

357
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It's already there.

358
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So it's imposing something

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on the world.

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I think that's what we are

361
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talking about, right? And it's imposing

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that there is a mutually beneficial

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game that you

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can participate in.

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Or again, you know,

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Booth says,

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cooperative competitiveness.

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So if everyone

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is working in adding value wherever they are from,

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they get the opportunity because a new system is introduced.

371
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I mean, I think, you know, I hope another country joins soon.

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But, for example, what El Salvador is able to do, you know,

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of course, to a degree, sorry, Najeeb,

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but, like, it's an insignificant country, you know,

375
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in the rest of the world.

376
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But when you really look at it, like,

377
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He's building a paradise from the ground up from a country, you know, to be fair, that was at rock bottom.

378
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But apparently you need that to take the opportunity to rebuild.

379
00:34:31,373 --> 00:34:37,693
That's why it's so hard for especially the West, you know, I'm in Europe to acknowledge the fact that Bitcoin exists like this.

380
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Total cognitive dissonance, right?

381
00:34:40,373 --> 00:34:47,473
Maybe we have to go all the way like the El Salvador way before we realize what this is, right?

382
00:34:47,473 --> 00:34:48,913
That would be a pity, by the way.

383
00:34:49,013 --> 00:34:53,893
But my point is more that you cannot ignore it.

384
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And you see that the people that participate in it, in this mutually beneficial game,

385
00:34:59,533 --> 00:35:07,773
everything anyone does for Bitcoin or with Bitcoin helps all the other people that have adopted Bitcoin.

386
00:35:07,773 --> 00:35:19,013
and um i i think that already is just a profound thought in a sense that it it it's not going away

387
00:35:19,013 --> 00:35:24,593
like it's here it it is the mirror to this existing system right and once once you see that

388
00:35:24,593 --> 00:35:32,013
yeah you cannot ignore it and that's why for me at least the conversation about bitcoin adoption

389
00:35:32,013 --> 00:35:34,733
or understanding it, it becomes spiritual really quick.

390
00:35:35,553 --> 00:35:41,352
Because in order for you to go through this cognitive dissonance,

391
00:35:41,352 --> 00:35:47,713
to come to grips with an unfortunate truth,

392
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you have to challenge your own ego.

393
00:35:52,113 --> 00:35:55,693
And so you have to go through that arc of resistance,

394
00:35:56,813 --> 00:35:59,913
going through it, realizing that, I don't know,

395
00:35:59,913 --> 00:36:07,573
You don't know shit or you participate in a system where you realize that you are a subject and not an actor and all these things.

396
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So that is, for me, the spiritual part of Bitcoin.

397
00:36:10,613 --> 00:36:12,332
That is a hard thing to do.

398
00:36:12,973 --> 00:36:19,793
But once you're there, I'll finish this thought, but I had a tweet yesterday that did fairly well.

399
00:36:19,933 --> 00:36:25,713
And I got this from an Alan Watts video that I watched.

400
00:36:26,553 --> 00:36:28,153
He has this video about money.

401
00:36:28,153 --> 00:36:28,893
Very interesting.

402
00:36:28,893 --> 00:36:37,033
from the 70s and he's just spot on crazy like like it could have been released today but once you

403
00:36:37,033 --> 00:36:43,573
understand that like productivity growth is always happening like we the whole goal of people is to be

404
00:36:43,573 --> 00:36:49,253
more productive right the whole goal like if we are inherently lazy everything should become

405
00:36:49,253 --> 00:36:55,893
quicker cheaper you know easier everything like our whole goal is to be more effective and be

406
00:36:55,893 --> 00:37:02,573
more productive. So over time, again, you know, this is what Jeff Booth talks about, about deflation,

407
00:37:02,693 --> 00:37:11,133
but it's a natural phenomenon. If we create more abundant resources, then the price of these

408
00:37:11,133 --> 00:37:16,613
resources will go down. Technology gets cheaper, gets democratized, right? Like, so more access.

409
00:37:16,613 --> 00:37:22,313
So sorry again for Bangladesh, but like people in Bangladesh now also have iPhones, right? Which

410
00:37:22,313 --> 00:37:24,193
maybe started in the West and then moved, right?

411
00:37:24,253 --> 00:37:26,693
So everyone has a smartphone, let's call it like that.

412
00:37:27,173 --> 00:37:34,253
So, but if you do this, so you have, again, this human behavior that is just existing.

413
00:37:34,613 --> 00:37:41,393
But if this exists in a system where you constantly have to create more money, like more units

414
00:37:41,393 --> 00:37:48,033
of money to pay for this ever increasing productivity, all the gains from the productivity are offset

415
00:37:48,033 --> 00:37:50,733
by the debasement of all the monetary units, right?

416
00:37:50,733 --> 00:37:58,973
Lynn Alden has an amazing video about this for her book Broken Money, where she shows like it's

417
00:37:58,973 --> 00:38:04,273
two forces, right? It's a deflationary force fighting an inflationary force. And my explanation

418
00:38:04,273 --> 00:38:10,813
is always, well, think about this. The bread was 25 cents in the 60s and now it's $5, right? Like

419
00:38:10,813 --> 00:38:15,113
which side is winning, do you think? Like we are very far away. Like the bread should be free and

420
00:38:15,113 --> 00:38:20,053
Nobody should be hungry, basically, 50 years after 1960.

421
00:38:20,053 --> 00:38:26,813
So you have these two forces battle, which eventually makes prices rise, right?

422
00:38:26,893 --> 00:38:32,433
Price inflation because the money supply is being inflated.

423
00:38:32,633 --> 00:38:42,453
But it lowers the quality of all the offered goods because the reward is so bad that you disincentivize people to actually deliver value.

424
00:38:42,793 --> 00:38:44,293
That's what we see now, right?

425
00:38:44,293 --> 00:38:45,073
Everything is ugly.

426
00:38:45,173 --> 00:38:46,413
All the architecture is ugly.

427
00:38:46,593 --> 00:38:51,453
Everyone orders stupid plastic stuff from China, whatever.

428
00:38:51,693 --> 00:38:53,233
You see it happening.

429
00:38:53,573 --> 00:38:57,513
And everything is degrading in quality and values also.

430
00:38:58,313 --> 00:39:02,593
So abundant money, a lot of money, leads to scarce quality output.

431
00:39:03,033 --> 00:39:05,852
Why would I deliver real value if I'm not rewarded?

432
00:39:05,852 --> 00:39:09,273
If I'm rewarded with something that can be infinitely created, right?

433
00:39:09,313 --> 00:39:10,793
That would be a stupid trade.

434
00:39:10,893 --> 00:39:13,233
So that's why everything is fast and cheap and all these things.

435
00:39:14,293 --> 00:39:32,533
Well, I think that your focus, I mean, you mentioned the spiritual angle, and I do think that there's a thread in Lowry's thesis that is directly on point. And I think that the type of theorizing you're doing about a sort of spiritual decline that is attended upon the use of fiat, that's a very real thing.

436
00:39:32,533 --> 00:39:49,313
In Lowry's thesis, he talks about the evolution, so to speak, of abstract power-based hierarchies as the development of free religion. Essentially, we have the hunter-gatherers who have kind of pantheistic, the spirit is eminent in the world.

437
00:39:49,313 --> 00:39:56,653
that transitions to agrarian people who then put a god in the sky who is judgmental over them.

438
00:39:56,653 --> 00:40:04,213
And then we've kind of entered a new fiat paradigm with all these different forces, you know,

439
00:40:04,332 --> 00:40:10,973
that tend to a sort of spiritual and aesthetic decline in architecture and the use of disposable

440
00:40:10,973 --> 00:40:16,613
plastic products. So it is interesting, even as a part of the software thesis, I would be interested

441
00:40:16,613 --> 00:40:26,513
to see further theorizing about what it means when the proof of work aspect of the Bitcoin protocol

442
00:40:26,513 --> 00:40:33,513
is taken seriously as a new form of realness in the virtual realm, a way to project physical power

443
00:40:33,513 --> 00:40:38,653
into cyberspace, to pinch ourselves, so to speak, to wake us from this hallucination of

444
00:40:38,653 --> 00:40:46,413
accelerating reproduction of fiat, all the trends that you mentioned, these accelerating

445
00:40:46,413 --> 00:40:49,293
forms of decline based around disposability.

446
00:40:50,832 --> 00:40:58,193
And how Bitcoin can occasion new forms of consciousness and both as a physical constraint

447
00:40:58,193 --> 00:41:06,293
inhibit those things, but also as a spiritual catalyst, maybe enable us to reflect upon

448
00:41:06,293 --> 00:41:10,753
what is the nature of our consciousness in relation to the material conditions that we

449
00:41:10,753 --> 00:41:11,093
inhabit.

450
00:41:11,093 --> 00:41:31,933
And maybe to reformulate it as a question, one of the things that Lowry does, of course, is Bitcoin is not just money, right? We call it a coin, but that's just an arbitrary semantic designation that was given to it as a form of object-oriented software design.

451
00:41:31,933 --> 00:41:57,033
Bitcoin is not a coin. So what is it then? One of the new problems we have are these software, like large transnational forms of software operated by the god kings of software, the Musks, the Zuckerbergs, people who have these amazing, incredible powers over our digital resources because they control Facebook, X, Google, Spotify, etc.

452
00:41:57,033 --> 00:42:13,453
So I guess the question in the context of this thesis is, how does Bitcoin discipline, break down these forms of software-based abstract power hierarchies that are maybe leading us into forms of decline?

453
00:42:13,453 --> 00:42:31,073
Is there a way that Bitcoin, not as money, but through its proof of work protocol, can take down the god kings of the software-based abstract power hierarchies that we can maybe feel a form of oppression in the form of digital alienation or spiritual decline?

454
00:42:31,173 --> 00:42:32,293
If that makes sense is the question.

455
00:42:32,953 --> 00:42:33,693
Fantastic question.

456
00:42:33,913 --> 00:42:34,093
Yes.

457
00:42:36,033 --> 00:42:39,413
I would stick with Bitcoin as a protocol.

458
00:42:40,193 --> 00:42:40,273
Right?

459
00:42:40,273 --> 00:42:48,993
So Bitcoin is a protocol with a set of values and principles that emanate from it because it exists, right?

460
00:42:49,033 --> 00:42:51,113
They are not in the code.

461
00:42:51,253 --> 00:42:57,313
They are not in the promise of this thing or the value proposition or whatever.

462
00:42:57,653 --> 00:42:58,873
Like they emanate from it.

463
00:42:59,073 --> 00:43:02,793
One is, I think, one that we already touched upon, right?

464
00:43:02,852 --> 00:43:05,373
Like it's walk and talk.

465
00:43:05,373 --> 00:43:06,513
so

466
00:43:06,513 --> 00:43:08,593
once you

467
00:43:08,593 --> 00:43:10,413
so let's imagine

468
00:43:10,413 --> 00:43:12,393
Bitcoin is the base layer of value

469
00:43:12,393 --> 00:43:14,413
that's where I wanted to go with what I just said

470
00:43:14,413 --> 00:43:15,393
but I think this is a great

471
00:43:15,393 --> 00:43:17,673
you interrupted me greatly because

472
00:43:17,673 --> 00:43:19,293
this adds to it right so

473
00:43:19,293 --> 00:43:21,113
you cannot measure

474
00:43:21,113 --> 00:43:23,913
this increasing productivity with

475
00:43:23,913 --> 00:43:24,413
you know

476
00:43:24,413 --> 00:43:27,933
with an inflationary

477
00:43:27,933 --> 00:43:29,073
money

478
00:43:29,073 --> 00:43:31,613
you cannot do that it offsets all these

479
00:43:31,613 --> 00:43:33,973
gains so you can only measure it

480
00:43:33,973 --> 00:43:35,832
with something

481
00:43:35,832 --> 00:43:38,013
wait I'll add my tweet again

482
00:43:38,013 --> 00:43:39,993
I'll finish the thought and I'll connect it

483
00:43:39,993 --> 00:43:41,933
to your question because

484
00:43:41,933 --> 00:43:44,153
yeah I absolutely love

485
00:43:44,153 --> 00:43:45,673
this wait I have to scroll one second

486
00:43:45,673 --> 00:43:47,873
yeah

487
00:43:47,873 --> 00:43:48,493
so

488
00:43:48,493 --> 00:43:51,773
if

489
00:43:51,773 --> 00:43:53,253
this deflation this

490
00:43:53,253 --> 00:43:55,113
innovation

491
00:43:55,113 --> 00:43:57,773
and invention

492
00:43:57,773 --> 00:43:59,832
in technology etc if that is a

493
00:43:59,832 --> 00:44:01,813
natural occurrence and an

494
00:44:01,813 --> 00:44:03,733
assured occurrence right something that

495
00:44:03,733 --> 00:44:11,433
people will do regardless. It can only be rewarded and measured in a hard money, something with a

496
00:44:11,433 --> 00:44:17,693
hard cap supply, something that does not change. Because the thing you're measuring is changing.

497
00:44:17,693 --> 00:44:24,893
So you have the measuring stick should be a thing that does not change, that stays the same.

498
00:44:26,433 --> 00:44:33,033
Which is what Bitcoin is. You know, this protocol is a set of rules that anyone can adopt that we

499
00:44:33,033 --> 00:44:34,033
just mentioned.

500
00:44:34,713 --> 00:44:36,713
And I think there's only one promise.

501
00:44:36,733 --> 00:44:41,673
It's not in the white paper, but the whole goal of Bitcoin is to stay the same,

502
00:44:42,393 --> 00:44:47,813
to create predictability towards the future for anyone that uses it.

503
00:44:47,913 --> 00:44:48,173
Right.

504
00:44:48,173 --> 00:44:52,253
So this mutually beneficial game or system, money system, however you want to call it,

505
00:44:52,832 --> 00:45:11,185
just stays the same And how does it do that well you have this incentive for miners node runners etc right we checking is this protocol still the same is the ledger

506
00:45:11,185 --> 00:45:17,125
still the ledger yes yes yes okay we we continue right that's the whole goal the whole goal is that

507
00:45:17,125 --> 00:45:24,125
the entire ledger, this 500 or 700 gigabytes of just text, which is also another wild thing,

508
00:45:24,185 --> 00:45:34,745
I think, of Bitcoin. Anyway, that is the truth of this system. Everyone in this system is

509
00:45:34,745 --> 00:45:43,065
incentivized to plug into this system and verify this truth every 10 minutes. Only then you are a

510
00:45:43,065 --> 00:45:47,365
real participant in this system, I think.

511
00:45:47,945 --> 00:45:50,305
Because then you can actually verify for yourself.

512
00:45:50,405 --> 00:45:51,405
You don't have to trust, right?

513
00:45:51,545 --> 00:45:54,445
Trust, don't trust, verify.

514
00:45:55,865 --> 00:46:00,305
You can actually verify this chain of information,

515
00:46:00,565 --> 00:46:03,625
which is the base layer of truth of this entire system.

516
00:46:04,405 --> 00:46:05,285
So that is the goal.

517
00:46:05,365 --> 00:46:09,165
The goal is to keep up with the integrity of the system.

518
00:46:09,285 --> 00:46:10,665
What is the integrity of the system?

519
00:46:10,785 --> 00:46:11,925
It stays the same.

520
00:46:11,925 --> 00:46:14,325
this truth is still valid

521
00:46:14,325 --> 00:46:16,065
and we do that every 10 minutes

522
00:46:16,065 --> 00:46:18,665
so every 10 minutes there's basically an audit of the truth

523
00:46:18,665 --> 00:46:20,885
of this system

524
00:46:20,885 --> 00:46:24,205
if we use this system

525
00:46:24,205 --> 00:46:26,685
as a base layer to build stuff upon

526
00:46:26,685 --> 00:46:30,365
everyone has to adhere

527
00:46:30,365 --> 00:46:33,645
to these principles and values that emanate

528
00:46:33,645 --> 00:46:34,925
from this base layer

529
00:46:34,925 --> 00:46:39,165
which are this forced transparency that we also mentioned

530
00:46:39,165 --> 00:46:42,165
and you can play

531
00:46:42,165 --> 00:46:44,365
any ideological game

532
00:46:44,365 --> 00:46:45,465
on top of Bitcoin

533
00:46:45,465 --> 00:46:47,745
you mentioned communism, capitalism

534
00:46:47,745 --> 00:46:49,585
whatever in general

535
00:46:49,585 --> 00:46:52,085
I'd say the world is at war

536
00:46:52,085 --> 00:46:53,645
constantly with ideas

537
00:46:53,645 --> 00:46:56,165
we are in a free

538
00:46:56,165 --> 00:46:58,425
market of ideas

539
00:46:58,425 --> 00:47:00,265
if you just believe

540
00:47:00,265 --> 00:47:02,305
ideas are a metaphysical thing

541
00:47:02,305 --> 00:47:03,965
they are accessible by anyone

542
00:47:03,965 --> 00:47:06,425
there's an unlimited amount

543
00:47:06,425 --> 00:47:08,225
of ideas floating around constantly

544
00:47:08,225 --> 00:47:10,385
and sometimes you pick one up, right?

545
00:47:10,445 --> 00:47:12,065
But ideas are free.

546
00:47:12,665 --> 00:47:14,045
Once you do something with it,

547
00:47:14,065 --> 00:47:17,725
you start projecting that thought onto the world, right?

548
00:47:17,745 --> 00:47:21,045
You're trying to manifest it into the physical realm,

549
00:47:21,325 --> 00:47:22,565
you know, whatever the idea is.

550
00:47:23,425 --> 00:47:28,765
So we live in this free market or battle of ideas already.

551
00:47:29,385 --> 00:47:33,525
So you can try to impose whatever you want to impose

552
00:47:33,525 --> 00:47:35,085
on this base layer of Bitcoin,

553
00:47:35,085 --> 00:47:36,205
but Bitcoin doesn't care

554
00:47:36,205 --> 00:47:38,685
because it is just a set of rules

555
00:47:38,685 --> 00:47:42,985
with a goal to keep these rules as is, right?

556
00:47:43,025 --> 00:47:44,665
With hard cap supply every 10 minutes,

557
00:47:44,785 --> 00:47:46,605
just all the rules that are in the protocol.

558
00:47:47,445 --> 00:47:51,125
And so that protocol doesn't care.

559
00:47:51,225 --> 00:47:53,805
So you have to start figuring out,

560
00:47:53,885 --> 00:47:55,725
okay, how do I act?

561
00:47:55,725 --> 00:47:59,985
How do I operate in a system

562
00:47:59,985 --> 00:48:03,545
that is built on this base layer

563
00:48:03,545 --> 00:48:09,745
in order to benefit, I'm doing air quotes, like benefit from it, right?

564
00:48:09,885 --> 00:48:13,585
But you can only benefit from it if you adhere to the rules.

565
00:48:14,245 --> 00:48:15,965
And that's very interesting.

566
00:48:16,325 --> 00:48:17,845
You know, we just mentioned trustlessness.

567
00:48:17,845 --> 00:48:24,725
Like, I don't have to trust you guys because I know that you guys are also forced to follow the rules

568
00:48:24,725 --> 00:48:28,805
to benefit from using Bitcoin.

569
00:48:29,565 --> 00:48:31,725
So I don't even have to check that with you.

570
00:48:31,725 --> 00:48:36,605
I know that's inherent to the entire system.

571
00:48:37,205 --> 00:48:50,285
And I think what comes from that, like, yeah, philosophically or spiritually is like, okay, what am I really here to do or to bring or to say or how to act, whatever?

572
00:48:50,385 --> 00:48:52,345
Like, what am I here to do?

573
00:48:52,385 --> 00:48:57,305
I love that you mentioned, you know, the hunter-gatherers and the agriculture people.

574
00:48:57,305 --> 00:49:05,085
I feel that the hunter-gatherers, or at least the way earlier people, were way more in tune with what the hell is going on here.

575
00:49:07,305 --> 00:49:13,185
The entire existence of us in this world, or this world just in general, what is this?

576
00:49:14,585 --> 00:49:21,605
And I feel that by adopting a certain system that forces us to play this mutually beneficial game with each other,

577
00:49:21,605 --> 00:49:29,025
acting as humans are acting right we want to progress etc all the things that we just talked

578
00:49:29,025 --> 00:49:36,965
about i think that eventually creates new time and space for us to actually explore you know what

579
00:49:36,965 --> 00:49:41,985
the hell is going on here so for me that's kind of like how how i look at it i hope that's an

580
00:49:41,985 --> 00:49:48,085
answer to no that's yeah that's exactly as an incorruptible base layer of rules it's different

581
00:49:48,085 --> 00:49:49,645
than an abstract power-based protocol

582
00:49:49,645 --> 00:49:51,765
where we've talked about the corruptibility of the rules

583
00:49:51,765 --> 00:49:52,985
through corruptible humans,

584
00:49:53,225 --> 00:49:55,605
but as that trustless base layer

585
00:49:55,605 --> 00:49:58,385
from which new virtues and values emanate

586
00:49:58,385 --> 00:49:59,405
because we have to determine

587
00:49:59,405 --> 00:50:03,245
how we're going to live in response to a new reality,

588
00:50:03,505 --> 00:50:06,365
to gravity reinstated, a new realness,

589
00:50:06,425 --> 00:50:07,485
even in the cyber realm.

590
00:50:07,985 --> 00:50:10,865
So I think that's 100% on point.

591
00:50:11,025 --> 00:50:11,865
And that helps too.

592
00:50:12,285 --> 00:50:14,345
It's a part of Lowry's thesis

593
00:50:14,345 --> 00:50:17,145
that I kind of grapple with

594
00:50:17,145 --> 00:50:26,165
turnaround in my mind what he means by he uses the idea of the strangler vine that envelops a tree

595
00:50:26,165 --> 00:50:32,845
and then replaces that tree with the vine it's a computer science metaphor for a new system devours

596
00:50:32,845 --> 00:50:37,985
a legacy system and slowly migrates services over to it and i struggle to think what that would mean

597
00:50:37,985 --> 00:50:44,605
when bitcoin is the strangler vine replacing legacy systems here but i like your your explanation

598
00:50:44,605 --> 00:50:51,285
there about the incorruptibility, the fact that it stays the same as being core to what it will

599
00:50:51,285 --> 00:50:58,385
impart on us humans. What do you think about it, Lucas? One of the things that Brom brought up

600
00:50:58,385 --> 00:51:06,485
that you and I have discussed before is the wrongness of using a changing measuring stick.

601
00:51:06,485 --> 00:51:12,825
So that's what inflation is, is that you're handing out, instead of dollars, think about

602
00:51:12,825 --> 00:51:19,125
that you're handing out measuring sticks and it's a ruler and we're handing out this is a foot and

603
00:51:19,125 --> 00:51:23,625
this is a foot and this is a foot but as you continue to hand them out they continue to shrink

604
00:51:23,625 --> 00:51:29,685
and you need more and more of those feet you know it still says that it's 12 inches but the one from

605
00:51:29,685 --> 00:51:35,845
100 years ago was this big and it said that it was 12 inches and so you continue to hand these out

606
00:51:35,845 --> 00:51:41,225
but there's something else that um jeff booth brought up in in your discussion with him brahm

607
00:51:41,225 --> 00:51:51,505
that I've thought about for a long time and really was able to see not only in my experience as a lender

608
00:51:51,505 --> 00:51:58,985
and working in finance and investments, but also I feel like really well elucidated by Michael Saylor,

609
00:51:59,245 --> 00:52:04,305
which is that not only are we handing out measuring sticks that are getting shorter,

610
00:52:04,865 --> 00:52:08,665
but Booth talks about this, is that we're measuring the wrong thing.

611
00:52:08,965 --> 00:52:10,005
We're measuring growth.

612
00:52:10,005 --> 00:52:15,865
Why do we want to measure growth when technology makes things less?

613
00:52:16,245 --> 00:52:18,705
Like it requires less power.

614
00:52:18,865 --> 00:52:20,305
It requires less man hours.

615
00:52:21,125 --> 00:52:24,485
We don't want growth to be the metric.

616
00:52:24,825 --> 00:52:27,085
We want quality to be the metric, right?

617
00:52:27,405 --> 00:52:31,185
Because you can't compare these things equally.

618
00:52:31,185 --> 00:52:46,845
If we go back to 1920 and we take a look at the basket of goods that people had and you go, okay, well, they had a pair of pants and they had a pair of shoes and they had a steak and they had a house and blah, blah, blah.

619
00:52:47,305 --> 00:52:48,725
Okay, yes, that's true.

620
00:52:48,845 --> 00:52:49,945
We have that stuff today.

621
00:52:50,065 --> 00:52:51,985
However, those shoes were handmade.

622
00:52:52,485 --> 00:52:53,545
They were made out of leather.

623
00:52:53,745 --> 00:52:55,785
They were made out of very high-quality materials.

624
00:52:55,785 --> 00:53:01,865
Those pants were fitted by a tailor because every pair of pants was custom made to the person.

625
00:53:02,385 --> 00:53:16,285
The food that they were eating, if you compare it to today, would be at the top shelf of the expense level because it was completely organic, all locally sourced, all effectively humanely raised, right?

626
00:53:16,285 --> 00:53:32,725
Because you just had these chickens running around and you had the cow outside and it had a name and you walked out there and you talked to it because you had time because you were engaging in that spiritual realm that you and I and Grant and I had an off-camera discussion about this yesterday.

627
00:53:32,725 --> 00:53:39,125
an experience that we've both kind of had reconnecting with nature and relating it to

628
00:53:39,125 --> 00:53:46,165
writings and experiences from people before us. I just got done reading the autobiography of Red

629
00:53:46,165 --> 00:53:55,165
Cloud, who's a famous Native American Indian chief of the United States. And the way that he talked

630
00:53:55,165 --> 00:54:00,465
about the things that they were doing, it's like, yeah, when I go for a walk in the woods and, or

631
00:54:00,465 --> 00:54:04,765
there's no woods in Kansas. There's a, there's a pretty girl behind every tree and we have like

632
00:54:04,765 --> 00:54:11,305
three trees, but occasionally you can find a place to hide. Um, but when you go for a walk and you

633
00:54:11,305 --> 00:54:20,865
disconnect yourself, you do find yourself feeling spiritual in a way that almost feels unnatural

634
00:54:20,865 --> 00:54:29,345
because we have so disengaged ourselves from that, um, from that world. So, yeah, I think that

635
00:54:29,345 --> 00:54:35,365
you you're really hammering into this i i love talking about the spiritual side of what bitcoin

636
00:54:35,365 --> 00:54:43,845
does because it's not just um it's not something that you have to seek you naturally come to these

637
00:54:43,845 --> 00:54:49,845
places on your own and every and you know that because you look at the commonalities between

638
00:54:49,845 --> 00:54:55,585
the bitcoin community and there there is the toxic max maximalist there is that person that

639
00:54:55,585 --> 00:55:00,705
does exist, that's all number go up and win moon and win Lambeau and, you know, you're

640
00:55:00,705 --> 00:55:01,945
going to die poor and all that.

641
00:55:02,565 --> 00:55:08,745
But then something that Grant turned me on was the work of Alex Fetzky, which is moving

642
00:55:08,745 --> 00:55:15,045
beyond that and realizing that what you're talking about when you're talking about basically

643
00:55:15,045 --> 00:55:22,145
virtues emanating from Bitcoin, they're not encoded into it, yet somehow they arise simply

644
00:55:22,145 --> 00:55:31,085
by participating with it and acknowledging that proof of work is that these virtues arise.

645
00:55:31,265 --> 00:55:33,565
And virtues are verbs and virtues are actions.

646
00:55:33,825 --> 00:55:36,505
And these are the actions that we all seem to take.

647
00:55:36,605 --> 00:55:38,425
We all seem to become a little more healthier.

648
00:55:38,845 --> 00:55:42,365
We all seem to become a little more engaged with our families and our communities.

649
00:55:42,805 --> 00:55:45,145
We all seem to appreciate art a little more.

650
00:55:45,145 --> 00:56:10,925
And these things that were so valued by previous civilizations, if you look back into the glory ages of civilizations, when we're building these beautiful stone structures and the Sistine Chapel is being painted and Mozart and Beethoven are making symphonies and there's beautiful art everywhere.

651
00:56:10,925 --> 00:56:38,165
And why was that? It turns out that that coincides with the time where we had the hardest money that's ever been known previous to Bitcoin. And so, yeah, I think that you're really just hammering onto these, tapping onto these little things that are so prescient about what happens as Bitcoin, the strangler vine, comes over and takes over the old system,

652
00:56:38,165 --> 00:56:47,645
which is that these things emanate from it and they do replace it by being, as the quote that you sent or the tweet that you sent earlier,

653
00:56:48,025 --> 00:56:58,905
just a technologically superior form that it's not because it's cheaper, it's not because it's going to go up, it's just because it's better.

654
00:56:59,505 --> 00:57:02,485
And then all of the other things come about from it being better.

655
00:57:03,265 --> 00:57:05,545
So I'll quit rattling on about that.

656
00:57:05,605 --> 00:57:15,345
But I had something that I wanted to ask you because I know that you've worked in tech for a long time, but now you're actually working in the Bitcoin space, correct?

657
00:57:15,985 --> 00:57:16,085
Yeah.

658
00:57:16,085 --> 00:57:16,725
Yeah.

659
00:57:16,985 --> 00:57:21,885
And so we're talking about, you know, this is a marketplace of ideas.

660
00:57:22,045 --> 00:57:23,445
It's a marketplace of opportunities.

661
00:57:23,765 --> 00:57:30,705
When I think about what Bitcoin is going to do, I think of Bitcoin as the car being invented.

662
00:57:30,705 --> 00:57:41,445
And then I think of all of these other cryptocurrencies as everybody else trying to invent a different car instead of just trying to make this car better.

663
00:57:41,965 --> 00:57:46,805
Like the first car didn't have a sunroof and it didn't have cup holders and it didn't have airbags.

664
00:57:46,945 --> 00:57:51,545
Like you have to iterate upon it in order to make it better and more useful for people.

665
00:57:51,545 --> 00:58:12,865
And I think the real failure and the real ego and arrogance of developers today is that we see so many of them trying to reinvent the wheel, trying to reinvent the car, instead of accepting it for what it is and building upon it to make it better.

666
00:58:12,865 --> 00:58:31,145
So you're working in that marketplace of ideas of Bitcoin. And I was curious to know, what are some of the ideas that you see in Bitcoin that are exciting to you that you think are going to have a impact on the world beyond simply?

667
00:58:31,145 --> 00:58:35,965
I can change value in between people without having to trust them.

668
00:58:36,125 --> 00:58:37,345
Like that's the base layer.

669
00:58:37,565 --> 00:58:38,245
We can do that.

670
00:58:38,345 --> 00:58:38,905
That's great.

671
00:58:39,425 --> 00:58:47,385
But what are some of the other ideas and emanations of ingenuity and innovation that you see coming out of the Bitcoin space?

672
00:58:48,385 --> 00:58:53,985
Yeah, I love that you love the spiritual side too.

673
00:58:53,985 --> 00:59:06,385
I think that is what has drawn me in even further, I think, because I love the genuine positive future outlook that Bitcoin has given me.

674
00:59:06,605 --> 00:59:09,045
Like my podcast is called Bitcoin for Millennials.

675
00:59:09,205 --> 00:59:12,925
Like I want to educate like our generation, right?

676
00:59:12,945 --> 00:59:15,285
I think we would be the best to adopt it.

677
00:59:15,325 --> 00:59:17,445
But I spend a lot of time like on Reddit.

678
00:59:17,625 --> 00:59:20,405
I mean, like the money Reddit or the millennials Reddit.

679
00:59:20,405 --> 00:59:23,745
people have a lot of fucking anxiety.

680
00:59:24,485 --> 00:59:25,325
They have no money.

681
00:59:25,485 --> 00:59:26,305
They have no savings.

682
00:59:26,525 --> 00:59:29,405
They have no positive outlook for the future.

683
00:59:30,285 --> 00:59:32,325
And every time I read about that,

684
00:59:32,685 --> 00:59:34,985
I'm like, I don't have any of these things.

685
00:59:36,165 --> 00:59:37,465
Which, again, you know,

686
00:59:37,545 --> 00:59:40,085
I know I'm privileged to a degree

687
00:59:40,085 --> 00:59:42,485
that I've had the time and space

688
00:59:42,485 --> 00:59:44,545
to figure out this thing,

689
00:59:44,705 --> 00:59:47,645
although it's taken me 10 years already.

690
00:59:47,645 --> 00:59:48,525
but

691
00:59:48,525 --> 00:59:54,085
when I realized that I don't have these things

692
00:59:54,085 --> 00:59:57,265
I realized, oh, I'm actually in a really good place

693
00:59:57,265 --> 00:59:59,385
and I think

694
00:59:59,385 --> 01:00:01,245
the nihilism

695
01:00:01,245 --> 01:00:03,425
and all these things

696
01:00:03,425 --> 01:00:04,565
it's very prevalent

697
01:00:04,565 --> 01:00:07,865
which I think is just a pity

698
01:00:07,865 --> 01:00:08,325
because

699
01:00:08,325 --> 01:00:11,665
I just mentioned all the consciousness stuff

700
01:00:11,665 --> 01:00:13,125
and also what you said

701
01:00:13,125 --> 01:00:14,505
I think

702
01:00:14,505 --> 01:00:17,505
people that came way before

703
01:00:17,505 --> 01:00:25,665
For us, we're way more in tune with nature and the universe and spirit and all these things.

704
01:00:26,325 --> 01:00:32,665
And I know we can go there, but I also know that we're very, very, very far away from that.

705
01:00:32,665 --> 01:00:40,745
I don't think we'll see any crazy spiritual renaissance in our lifetime globally, but maybe.

706
01:00:40,745 --> 01:00:46,865
maybe um but i think what comes from that is what you what you mentioned about you know all these

707
01:00:46,865 --> 01:00:51,645
developers doing all these other things yeah i think that's a real pity it's like uh and you

708
01:00:51,645 --> 01:00:56,325
mentioned the wheel and i think the wheel is a good example again it's hard you know on one side

709
01:00:56,325 --> 01:01:00,565
we talk about bitcoin and now you when you're listening to this you have to think about okay

710
01:01:00,565 --> 01:01:08,425
conceptualize the invention or the discovery of the wheel okay a wheel is a wheel is a wheel

711
01:01:08,425 --> 01:01:14,965
right so even even when the when nasa is trying to create wheels with mesh and no air for their

712
01:01:14,965 --> 01:01:21,845
mars rover whatever still conceptually a wheel okay that's how you have to look at bitcoin so i

713
01:01:21,845 --> 01:01:26,905
also think it's a pity that people are like oh well i'm gonna make something faster because i can

714
01:01:26,905 --> 01:01:31,985
you know like it's just it's it's a waste it's a waste of your time if all these people

715
01:01:31,985 --> 01:01:37,305
you know project their energy towards bitcoin we would be going super super quick

716
01:01:37,305 --> 01:01:41,025
but I feel this is also a symptom

717
01:01:41,025 --> 01:01:42,825
of the entire system that we're in

718
01:01:42,825 --> 01:01:45,105
like it is staring you in the face

719
01:01:45,105 --> 01:01:47,165
you know about Bitcoin

720
01:01:47,165 --> 01:01:49,005
you didn't do enough work

721
01:01:49,005 --> 01:01:50,465
you have some skills and you're gonna

722
01:01:50,465 --> 01:01:52,525
put it to work on some

723
01:01:52,525 --> 01:01:54,545
SPX something whatever

724
01:01:54,545 --> 01:01:55,785
fucking meme coin

725
01:01:55,785 --> 01:01:56,885
I don't know

726
01:01:56,885 --> 01:01:59,825
there's always something better

727
01:01:59,825 --> 01:02:01,165
there's always this other thing

728
01:02:01,165 --> 01:02:04,005
like for me that's all symptoms

729
01:02:04,005 --> 01:02:06,645
of what we're talking about

730
01:02:06,645 --> 01:02:09,265
and what we're trying to fix here.

731
01:02:09,545 --> 01:02:15,005
I think the problems are staring people in the face.

732
01:02:15,145 --> 01:02:16,245
As we mentioned before,

733
01:02:16,825 --> 01:02:20,925
the cognitive dissonance of not going towards

734
01:02:20,925 --> 01:02:23,565
where the resistance is is huge.

735
01:02:23,825 --> 01:02:25,625
It makes also a lot of sense, right?

736
01:02:25,705 --> 01:02:26,985
So I'm not bashing on people,

737
01:02:26,985 --> 01:02:29,945
but it's literally in front of your face.

738
01:02:30,225 --> 01:02:32,745
And the alternative system, the mirror,

739
01:02:33,145 --> 01:02:34,325
is also just there.

740
01:02:34,325 --> 01:02:38,945
right the fact that people after 15 years are still like oh ponzi scheme blah blah you know

741
01:02:38,945 --> 01:02:46,905
also you know fucking system a symptom of this system like it's this is how far off we are i

742
01:02:46,905 --> 01:02:52,245
hope i illustrate it in a nice way also for people listening but like i feel like this is how far off

743
01:02:52,245 --> 01:02:58,065
we are from where we could be right because where we can be is what you mentioned luke's like we can

744
01:02:58,065 --> 01:03:04,445
be totally in tune with nature with each other wherever we are right imagine that all the people

745
01:03:04,445 --> 01:03:10,185
in the world despite all their little power projections etc that we also talked about

746
01:03:10,185 --> 01:03:16,365
like we're working towards a goal together not in a communist collective way right but like

747
01:03:16,365 --> 01:03:24,005
um i don't know summary summary would be like uh excitement towards the future or something like

748
01:03:24,005 --> 01:03:32,405
that right if everyone has excitement towards the future i think we could go super far um yeah again

749
01:03:32,405 --> 01:03:37,745
especially if you look at like all the um like uh you know what people talk about in the past and

750
01:03:37,745 --> 01:03:43,825
maybe to end that thought uh and connected also to bitcoin but i have like um i have friends that

751
01:03:43,825 --> 01:03:48,185
go on like these crazy trips in the amazon and they do ayahuasca and whatever and they hang

752
01:03:48,185 --> 01:03:53,985
you know with in villages for like a week with all the shamans etc and they once told me like

753
01:03:53,985 --> 01:03:57,545
Like, when we walk through the jungle with these people,

754
01:03:57,625 --> 01:03:58,605
they talk to the trees.

755
01:03:59,445 --> 01:04:04,105
And I'm like, yeah, I want, I cannot, like, visualize it

756
01:04:04,105 --> 01:04:07,545
because I cannot do it, but I want to believe that that is possible.

757
01:04:07,785 --> 01:04:07,845
Right?

758
01:04:07,885 --> 01:04:11,905
Like, if you think that, you know, consciousness isn't everything

759
01:04:11,905 --> 01:04:13,305
and et cetera, right?

760
01:04:13,365 --> 01:04:17,785
Like, it's just, it sounds crazy now that I say this, right?

761
01:04:17,885 --> 01:04:20,805
But imagine if that's real.

762
01:04:21,805 --> 01:04:21,905
Right?

763
01:04:21,905 --> 01:04:26,485
Imagine you could actually go there and be so in tune with the nature

764
01:04:26,485 --> 01:04:31,785
that it guides you on a path through a crazy dense jungle.

765
01:04:33,885 --> 01:04:35,065
I think it's real.

766
01:04:35,385 --> 01:04:38,625
It's how my friends share it, and I trust them.

767
01:04:39,545 --> 01:04:41,685
Their experience, they are sharing with me.

768
01:04:41,685 --> 01:04:45,365
But anyway, so my point is more like that for me is like a personal example

769
01:04:45,365 --> 01:04:50,385
where I think like, wow, if we can all be that in tune with nature,

770
01:04:50,385 --> 01:04:53,245
with who we really are as we are also part of nature, right?

771
01:04:53,285 --> 01:04:54,625
Like, what would that be like?

772
01:04:54,705 --> 01:04:57,005
Like, I don't know, it makes me smile.

773
01:04:57,105 --> 01:04:58,945
Like, I think that's just a really interesting,

774
01:04:59,205 --> 01:05:02,805
positive, you know, concept to think about.

775
01:05:04,505 --> 01:05:07,365
To connect that to your question about going into Bitcoin,

776
01:05:07,485 --> 01:05:08,765
like, that took me some time.

777
01:05:09,505 --> 01:05:12,785
And I'm super grateful that I'm able to do that now

778
01:05:12,785 --> 01:05:14,065
because I think this is,

779
01:05:14,885 --> 01:05:17,105
Bitcoin is the most fascinating subject

780
01:05:17,105 --> 01:05:19,665
that I can dedicate my time to, I think.

781
01:05:19,665 --> 01:05:26,385
it's also when i heard bob burnett say something like this in a podcast is when i realized i should

782
01:05:26,385 --> 01:05:31,405
do something i should contribute to this thing i'm going to think about this for the rest

783
01:05:31,405 --> 01:05:37,045
of my life so that's where uh kind of the idea for or the motivation for for my podcast came about

784
01:05:37,045 --> 01:05:44,965
and then um yeah i thought like i i did some consulting and i drove to another city here like

785
01:05:44,965 --> 01:05:49,425
two three hours a day and you know listening to bitcoin podcasts along the way and i was like

786
01:05:49,425 --> 01:05:51,665
damn, I only want to do Bitcoin.

787
01:05:52,005 --> 01:05:54,345
So that's kind of when I started, you know,

788
01:05:54,685 --> 01:05:57,265
throwing out some lines

789
01:05:57,265 --> 01:05:59,385
and just see if there were any opportunities.

790
01:05:59,685 --> 01:06:02,065
And eventually I ended up with OnRamp

791
01:06:02,065 --> 01:06:03,465
that I'm really happy with.

792
01:06:03,605 --> 01:06:05,285
And I think there's not,

793
01:06:06,365 --> 01:06:10,445
I don't think there's specific ideas

794
01:06:10,445 --> 01:06:11,805
that I can really point to,

795
01:06:11,885 --> 01:06:15,205
but just the idea of participating

796
01:06:15,205 --> 01:06:17,345
in this, you know,

797
01:06:17,345 --> 01:06:25,505
proliferation of the concept of Bitcoin, I think, is very rewarding. And maybe practically to connect

798
01:06:25,505 --> 01:06:30,145
with that, it's like, I really see Bitcoin as a mirror to this current fiat money system, right?

799
01:06:30,145 --> 01:06:35,285
Like, it exists. And as long as it exists, it will act as a mirror, like you cannot ignore it, right?

800
01:06:35,285 --> 01:06:43,785
So once you can show comparisons with the fiat money system and the Bitcoin system and showing

801
01:06:43,785 --> 01:06:50,965
that the Bitcoin system is superior in whatever the application is that you're trying to show.

802
01:06:51,525 --> 01:06:55,605
I think that is what helps with continuous adoption.

803
01:06:55,805 --> 01:07:01,165
And I think one great example is, and there's a few people working on this,

804
01:07:01,165 --> 01:07:05,605
like if you deposit, so getting a mortgage for Bitcoin, for example,

805
01:07:05,745 --> 01:07:09,765
like if you deposit, so there's already people doing this privately,

806
01:07:09,765 --> 01:07:18,525
but if you deposit like 250k in Bitcoin, you can just borrow 250k in fiat money.

807
01:07:18,525 --> 01:07:32,598
And with the Bitcoin as collateral if you buy a home with it you know the home is also collateral So it lowers the risk for the lender which also results in lower interest payments for example right So if

808
01:07:32,598 --> 01:07:39,678
you could borrow that for like a 1% interest, because you have the most liquid asset in the

809
01:07:39,678 --> 01:07:47,518
world as collateral, plus a part of the house, yeah, then you totally undermine the traditional

810
01:07:47,518 --> 01:07:49,238
Fiat money mortgages, for example.

811
01:07:49,598 --> 01:07:58,078
I love this idea because I really think you can undercut just traditional mortgage products

812
01:07:58,078 --> 01:08:00,578
because, yeah, you have superior collateral.

813
01:08:01,498 --> 01:08:06,078
And if you think about the fact that mortgages and, in general, broader loans

814
01:08:06,078 --> 01:08:12,838
are like 90% of revenue and income for big trade-fi corporations like banks,

815
01:08:12,838 --> 01:08:19,098
Like if you undermine their main business model, I think that that could be a very interesting thing to to watch.

816
01:08:19,098 --> 01:08:19,658
Yeah.

817
01:08:21,498 --> 01:08:21,978
Yeah.

818
01:08:22,718 --> 01:08:25,178
Sorry, I used to work in that industry.

819
01:08:25,478 --> 01:08:26,578
I worked in that industry.

820
01:08:26,718 --> 01:08:31,138
So I was an ag lender and I financed farms and ranches.

821
01:08:31,138 --> 01:08:47,418
And that's what brought me to Bitcoin was seeing a disparity and a discrepancy in the financials of my customers that came in where they were getting richer on paper, but they were poor in real life.

822
01:08:47,618 --> 01:08:49,618
And I couldn't understand it.

823
01:08:49,738 --> 01:08:56,578
They were worth 40% more than they were the year before due to the inflation of their real assets like real estate.

824
01:08:57,578 --> 01:09:04,638
However, they had to borrow money in order to purchase inputs because they weren't able to cash flow this.

825
01:09:04,838 --> 01:09:07,958
And so I'm really interested in that perspective.

826
01:09:08,158 --> 01:09:11,818
Leon Wancom, I think, is probably the best at explaining this.

827
01:09:11,898 --> 01:09:18,538
I've heard him on Preston Pysh a couple of times, and I've also just kind of followed him and listened to what he said.

828
01:09:18,538 --> 01:09:29,038
when you're using a superior form of collateral in order to borrow a inferior form of money

829
01:09:29,038 --> 01:09:35,638
to buy a less superior form of collateral, then you put yourself in a great position.

830
01:09:35,638 --> 01:09:42,118
Grant actually talked to me about this because he's interested in trying to bring this to banks

831
01:09:42,118 --> 01:09:47,338
in Western Kansas as well. How can you just start the conversation?

832
01:09:48,538 --> 01:10:02,978
It's really fascinating because from a mechanistic perspective, what happens is, let's say you put $250,000 of Bitcoin down and you borrow against it.

833
01:10:02,978 --> 01:10:11,738
you're going to see the value of that Bitcoin grow relative to the value of that real estate,

834
01:10:11,858 --> 01:10:20,418
especially as real estate is demonetized, where the monetary incentive of owning real estate goes

835
01:10:20,418 --> 01:10:27,538
away because there's a superior form of collateral. What we see now is we see people

836
01:10:27,538 --> 01:10:34,778
hyper-financializing different aspects of the world because they're all just always seeking

837
01:10:34,778 --> 01:10:41,078
something that will outpace inflation. And for a couple of years, it'll be real estate,

838
01:10:41,078 --> 01:10:46,258
and then it'll be equities, and then it'll be gold, and then it'll be art, and then it'll be

839
01:10:46,258 --> 01:10:52,038
wine, and there'll be racehorses, and there'll be collectibles like race cars and baseball cards

840
01:10:52,038 --> 01:10:59,898
and things like that. So the problem with that is it's really no different than the fiat system

841
01:10:59,898 --> 01:11:06,018
where you've got 160 currencies that are constantly trading against each other. And

842
01:11:06,018 --> 01:11:09,598
this one's going to be worth less because we think this one's going to be worth more. And

843
01:11:09,598 --> 01:11:17,178
it's all just laying bets. It's all just built upon these abstract beliefs that, you know,

844
01:11:17,178 --> 01:11:22,438
the saying about real estate is that, you know, if you buy dirt, you can't get hurt. Like that's

845
01:11:22,438 --> 01:11:27,238
what, uh, you know, owning real estate, they don't make any more of it. Right. Um, but,

846
01:11:27,418 --> 01:11:33,498
but the truth is they do, you know, they, you can build up, you can build down, you can build out,

847
01:11:33,498 --> 01:11:39,758
you can, um, create islands, uh, out of nothing if there's a monetary incentive to do so. And

848
01:11:39,758 --> 01:11:47,738
there has been that monetary incentive and seeing that Bitcoin is demonetizing real estate. And I,

849
01:11:47,938 --> 01:11:56,158
and this is, I think one of the real imperative forms of personal assessment that you have to

850
01:11:56,158 --> 01:12:02,258
take when you look at Bitcoin and how it affects the world is to look at Bitcoin and how it affects

851
01:12:02,258 --> 01:12:08,138
your life. And personally, for me, I am in a position where I could buy a house,

852
01:12:08,138 --> 01:12:10,918
but there is zero chance that I will buy a house now.

853
01:12:10,918 --> 01:12:16,018
Like I will eventually, but in today's prices,

854
01:12:16,018 --> 01:12:19,118
I look at it and I'm like, this is absurd.

855
01:12:19,278 --> 01:12:20,098
This is ridiculous.

856
01:12:20,258 --> 01:12:22,598
This market is so overpriced.

857
01:12:23,038 --> 01:12:28,558
There's no, you know, it's just continuously monetizing itself.

858
01:12:29,138 --> 01:12:33,758
And so if I know that I'm not engaging in that sort of activity,

859
01:12:33,758 --> 01:12:37,898
then I also realize that I can extrapolate that to the rest of the world.

860
01:12:37,898 --> 01:12:47,678
And I can say, well, if I'm removing myself from that market and so is this guy and so is this guy, then we're starting to really see some effects.

861
01:12:47,878 --> 01:12:55,378
And we're definitely seeing that, especially in commercial real estate right now where the value is just not there.

862
01:12:55,418 --> 01:13:00,658
Because the value in commercial real estate, it turns out, had nothing to do with the location.

863
01:13:01,118 --> 01:13:05,358
It had everything to do with the people inside those buildings.

864
01:13:05,358 --> 01:13:11,898
And now that those people aren't inside those buildings, those buildings aren't worth anything close to what they were before.

865
01:13:12,558 --> 01:13:23,398
And so it was a wrong application of thought, really, where, you know, in real estate, it's always location, location, location.

866
01:13:23,398 --> 01:13:35,658
It's not location anymore, not location anymore, because the best location in the world to make money, it turns out to be a stranded waterfall in the middle of nowhere.

867
01:13:35,658 --> 01:13:42,858
Or it turns out to be a volcano somewhere that you can strap a generator on and make some power and turn into Bitcoin.

868
01:13:43,158 --> 01:13:44,678
Like, that's location.

869
01:13:44,878 --> 01:13:51,898
Everybody always thought location was, oh, you need to be next to the Yankees and you need to be close to the opera and you need to be close to the ocean.

870
01:13:51,898 --> 01:13:55,258
It's like, no, that's entirely untrue.

871
01:13:55,638 --> 01:13:58,838
But it was a thesis that we based a lot of decisions upon.

872
01:13:59,138 --> 01:14:00,858
So, yeah, I appreciate you doing it.

873
01:14:00,938 --> 01:14:11,058
Like, I really appreciate the demonetizing real estate and the using Bitcoin as a pristine form of collateral in order to borrow against.

874
01:14:11,058 --> 01:14:21,478
Because having come from that industry, I can't remember what it's called, but there's a bias or effect or something.

875
01:14:21,898 --> 01:14:27,538
It's named after one of the scientists that worked on the nuclear bomb with Richard Feynman.

876
01:14:29,118 --> 01:14:35,818
It's when you read the newspaper and you see something that's in your industry and you're like, oh, that's bullshit.

877
01:14:36,298 --> 01:14:39,658
And then you read everything else and you're like, oh, that must be right.

878
01:14:39,658 --> 01:14:41,098
Like, no, like recognize.

879
01:14:41,438 --> 01:14:47,198
But the only reason you know that's bullshit is because you don't know the rest of the stuff, you know.

880
01:14:47,198 --> 01:14:53,418
And so, yeah, you have to look very deeply upon all of these things in order to really bring it around.

881
01:14:53,778 --> 01:14:54,898
So, I don't know.

882
01:14:54,958 --> 01:14:55,538
What do you think, Grant?

883
01:14:55,638 --> 01:14:57,298
We've talked a little bit about this.

884
01:14:57,498 --> 01:15:03,318
We've talked a little bit about the real estate thing before and throwing that in there as another application of Bitcoin.

885
01:15:03,918 --> 01:15:07,658
What are some of the ideas that you see in Bitcoin that are really exciting?

886
01:15:09,658 --> 01:15:28,558
So that's a really good question. Because especially in the context of Lowry's thesis, I mean, it urges us to think like, what are the applications and uses of Bitcoin that are beyond our denominator, are calling it money or calling it coin.

887
01:15:28,558 --> 01:15:58,538
And so as that pristine form of collateral, as a new form of capital, as a sailor says, a form of cyber real estate, or as Lowry says, as a form of bit power, a way to project physical power into cyberspace and tie it down to reality, open, as he says, a bidirectional portal to make cyberspace more real and to take what is good about cyberspace and import it into all.

888
01:15:58,558 --> 01:16:03,518
our world, the ability to have an electric form of currency that we use being one of them.

889
01:16:04,238 --> 01:16:10,198
So I mean, to go back to something Brom said, I think that what's most exciting for me is

890
01:16:10,198 --> 01:16:15,538
Brom mentioned, you know, going into those Reddit forums and seeing the anxiety of our

891
01:16:15,538 --> 01:16:22,118
generation, but other generations too, and then sensing an ambient nihilism kind of percolating

892
01:16:22,118 --> 01:16:24,038
from people who have lost hope.

893
01:16:24,878 --> 01:16:33,618
And so Bitcoin, not just as like, you get this,

894
01:16:33,638 --> 01:16:35,438
it's going to solve your monetary woes,

895
01:16:35,578 --> 01:16:36,938
your anxiety is going to be gone.

896
01:16:36,938 --> 01:16:40,978
But Bitcoin as another grounding in reality,

897
01:16:41,498 --> 01:16:45,018
we're increasingly becoming unmoored from a sense of the real.

898
01:16:45,358 --> 01:16:48,938
I think with cell phones, social media, cyberspace,

899
01:16:48,938 --> 01:16:55,818
We enter virtual. A huge aspect of our lives is virtual, is fake, is a hallucination, a dream.

900
01:16:57,258 --> 01:17:18,738
And so within Lowry's thesis, if there is some truth, and I think there is, that the proof of work aspect of the Bitcoin protocol allows us to infiltrate the virtual with real world premises and the emanations of virtue and new values that Brom was talking about, too.

901
01:17:18,938 --> 01:17:27,378
going into cyberspace, the idea of Bitcoin as hope, as a new thing, a new form of realness,

902
01:17:27,958 --> 01:17:34,178
it's somewhat of a vague premise. We're still all of us fleshing out what this means. But I don't

903
01:17:34,178 --> 01:17:38,918
think just because it's vague and just because we call it spiritual, that doesn't mean that there's

904
01:17:38,918 --> 01:17:46,698
not nothing there, to give a double negative. So I think that for me just is what it's about.

905
01:17:46,698 --> 01:18:02,398
It's all of those, the use cases all come together to address what is for our generation and others, the nihilism that we can't put our finger on, the anxiety that seems to orbit around us and be a cause of so many woes.

906
01:18:02,398 --> 01:18:23,298
So that's a vague response, but I do think that there's something there. And I do think that Bitcoin as a form of realness, the proof of work protocol, injecting energy consumption into the virtual realm and pulling it down to us is going to open that pi-directional portal to use kind of the interesting language that Saylor uses.

907
01:18:23,298 --> 01:18:30,938
So just to endorse what Brahman, you have been saying, I guess, I agree with all that. And I think that Bitcoin is going to represent a lot of things that we're still getting our hands around.

908
01:18:32,398 --> 01:18:34,238
I was going to say, why don't we throw it?

909
01:18:34,598 --> 01:18:37,598
Brahm, I know that you've got to get out of here fairly soon.

910
01:18:38,378 --> 01:18:45,218
So if you want to kind of take us in your direction of really where you see this going

911
01:18:45,218 --> 01:18:50,938
and maybe some of the thoughts that you have in terms of the bright spots.

912
01:18:51,478 --> 01:18:53,018
You're a very hopeful person.

913
01:18:53,178 --> 01:18:54,718
You're a very optimistic person.

914
01:18:54,718 --> 01:19:07,298
And you've really adopted the ethos of what I think the virtues emanating from Bitcoin are going to do to a lot of people.

915
01:19:07,298 --> 01:19:22,978
So we'll kind of give you the runway on the way out here and sort of let you have free reign in this discussion about software and power projection, how that changes society and where you see things going.

916
01:19:23,578 --> 01:19:26,218
So feel free to land the plane, man.

917
01:19:26,498 --> 01:19:27,298
Very broad.

918
01:19:28,458 --> 01:19:32,458
I think what I wanted to say was I think we should do this another time

919
01:19:32,458 --> 01:19:34,318
because so many new thoughts pop up.

920
01:19:34,478 --> 01:19:35,958
But, yes, I think we have to round up.

921
01:19:36,198 --> 01:19:41,538
So if you enjoyed it, then let's do another time because there are so many ideas.

922
01:19:41,538 --> 01:19:48,758
Also, Lucas, on what you just said, like when you talk about like the demonetization of real estate,

923
01:19:48,998 --> 01:19:52,038
I think about this mirror, Bitcoin acting as a mirror again.

924
01:19:52,038 --> 01:19:55,998
You cannot ignore that this is a better way to store value, to save.

925
01:19:56,358 --> 01:20:06,518
So people are using real estate or they're tricked into becoming a property owner, etc.

926
01:20:06,918 --> 01:20:11,558
I follow a guy on Twitter, Wealth Squad, Chris or something.

927
01:20:12,098 --> 01:20:14,318
He's like selling his real estate for Bitcoin.

928
01:20:14,698 --> 01:20:17,738
I have a friend here who sold a few hundred homes for Bitcoin.

929
01:20:18,338 --> 01:20:21,138
But this Chris guy says, I don't want to be a predator.

930
01:20:21,138 --> 01:20:27,938
Like I am doing something immoral, which I find a huge realization, right?

931
01:20:27,938 --> 01:20:33,598
Because he obviously got wealthy from it and now he's changing to this other thing.

932
01:20:34,158 --> 01:20:45,358
But the interesting part that I was thinking about to tie it back to the software thesis is it's also like a power projection of Bitcoin.

933
01:20:45,358 --> 01:20:50,918
Like the hurdle rate of Bitcoin is also a sort of power projection.

934
01:20:52,618 --> 01:20:54,498
It's like a negative power projection.

935
01:20:54,638 --> 01:21:07,278
It's like if I sell my Bitcoin for something that is inferior in holding or storing energy towards a future space and time, then, yeah, why would I ever do that?

936
01:21:07,358 --> 01:21:14,538
And the other way around, if I can trade in an inferior asset for a superior asset, then I should definitely do that, right?

937
01:21:14,538 --> 01:21:16,738
and so I think

938
01:21:16,738 --> 01:21:18,738
yeah once you understand

939
01:21:18,738 --> 01:21:20,738
that like why you do what

940
01:21:20,738 --> 01:21:21,418
you do

941
01:21:21,418 --> 01:21:24,678
I was at an event a few months

942
01:21:24,678 --> 01:21:26,598
ago and I talked to a guy who sold his

943
01:21:26,598 --> 01:21:28,618
company for like I don't know 100 million

944
01:21:28,618 --> 01:21:30,698
or something everyone knows that he has a lot of money

945
01:21:30,698 --> 01:21:32,778
and I know him from like

946
01:21:32,778 --> 01:21:34,638
10 years ago or something

947
01:21:34,638 --> 01:21:36,458
and we met actually again at this

948
01:21:36,458 --> 01:21:38,658
event he's like oh you're into

949
01:21:38,658 --> 01:21:39,798
Bitcoin this and that and I was like yeah

950
01:21:39,798 --> 01:21:42,878
I know you sold the company

951
01:21:42,878 --> 01:21:44,418
etc right like are you into Bitcoin

952
01:21:44,418 --> 01:21:44,938
No, no.

953
01:21:45,098 --> 01:21:47,578
And then I said, but well, what do you do for your wealth preservation?

954
01:21:47,738 --> 01:21:48,898
He's like, I'm into real estate.

955
01:21:49,458 --> 01:21:54,398
And then I asked him, but okay, let me ask you maybe a stupid question, but like, why

956
01:21:54,398 --> 01:21:55,418
are you into real estate?

957
01:21:55,418 --> 01:21:57,598
And he was quiet for like four minutes.

958
01:21:58,098 --> 01:22:01,138
And he's like, I don't know, because everyone is doing it.

959
01:22:01,178 --> 01:22:05,318
I was like, okay, I find that an interesting answer, right?

960
01:22:05,358 --> 01:22:06,278
And then we continued.

961
01:22:06,438 --> 01:22:08,778
We talked for like an hour about Bitcoin and all these things.

962
01:22:08,778 --> 01:22:16,898
And I wanted to zoom in on that because I said to him, but you did something very consciously.

963
01:22:17,238 --> 01:22:31,678
You build a company, you know, like everything that's connected to building a company, big enough, valuable enough for other people to reward you for, you know, the energy and time that you spent and the value that you created.

964
01:22:31,678 --> 01:22:38,418
And now you are doing something to preserve that wealth in an unconscious way.

965
01:22:38,778 --> 01:22:40,498
that's not very smart.

966
01:22:40,658 --> 01:22:42,618
And he's like, no, that's not very smart.

967
01:22:43,378 --> 01:22:47,698
And I don't know why I'm going in this direction,

968
01:22:47,798 --> 01:22:50,538
but what I love is that when you see,

969
01:22:51,058 --> 01:22:53,098
they don't even have to be into Bitcoin, right?

970
01:22:53,118 --> 01:22:54,878
It's more about this realization,

971
01:22:55,518 --> 01:22:58,858
I'm doing something that I don't understand,

972
01:22:59,678 --> 01:23:04,138
which is not a nice realization,

973
01:23:04,638 --> 01:23:05,798
makes you feel stupid,

974
01:23:05,798 --> 01:23:09,678
but it is kind of like the stepping stone to,

975
01:23:10,018 --> 01:23:13,498
I think there's somewhat of a red pill you have to take

976
01:23:13,498 --> 01:23:15,438
before you can orange pill yourself.

977
01:23:15,578 --> 01:23:18,238
Like you have to come to the realization

978
01:23:18,238 --> 01:23:20,958
that you are not participating in a system,

979
01:23:21,058 --> 01:23:23,438
you're a subject in a system, right?

980
01:23:24,718 --> 01:23:26,418
I don't know what you exactly said, Grant,

981
01:23:26,478 --> 01:23:27,598
but I had to think of like,

982
01:23:28,518 --> 01:23:30,378
why is nobody,

983
01:23:31,198 --> 01:23:34,358
why is not everyone like all into Bitcoin, right?

984
01:23:34,358 --> 01:23:36,958
because they are captured in this current system.

985
01:23:37,098 --> 01:23:38,878
They are doing things.

986
01:23:38,958 --> 01:23:40,698
They are in the rat race.

987
01:23:40,778 --> 01:23:42,218
They are on the hamster wheel.

988
01:23:42,298 --> 01:23:43,558
And they have no clue why.

989
01:23:43,658 --> 01:23:46,438
They are just doing what they think they should be doing.

990
01:23:46,998 --> 01:23:48,578
And I'm not any different.

991
01:23:48,818 --> 01:23:50,978
Like, I was into Bitcoin when I was 30.

992
01:23:51,078 --> 01:23:51,958
I worked at a bank.

993
01:23:54,338 --> 01:23:56,698
And then I had a colleague tell me,

994
01:23:56,898 --> 01:23:59,098
like, do you know that the money in the bank is not yours?

995
01:23:59,178 --> 01:23:59,798
And I was like, what?

996
01:24:00,258 --> 01:24:01,338
Sorry, what do you mean?

997
01:24:02,558 --> 01:24:04,058
And then we had lunch for an hour.

998
01:24:04,058 --> 01:24:06,218
he explained to me fractional reserve banking, all these things.

999
01:24:06,878 --> 01:24:10,678
And I walked away from that conversation feeling utterly stupid.

1000
01:24:11,578 --> 01:24:16,158
Like just thinking about myself being at the forefront with Bitcoin

1001
01:24:16,158 --> 01:24:19,738
and into tech and banking and whatever.

1002
01:24:19,858 --> 01:24:21,978
And I was like, I have no clue what this is about.

1003
01:24:23,258 --> 01:24:27,278
What am I participating in, basically?

1004
01:24:27,278 --> 01:24:34,638
And I think it might sound simple or I'm like overcomplicating it,

1005
01:24:34,698 --> 01:24:39,238
but it's quite an innocent realization, but it's pretty deep.

1006
01:24:39,298 --> 01:24:43,818
It was really deep for me to realize like, okay, what am I actually doing?

1007
01:24:45,578 --> 01:24:48,658
And I just hope, and maybe that's a nice ender,

1008
01:24:48,718 --> 01:24:53,518
like I hope that I and also you guys with what you do,

1009
01:24:53,578 --> 01:24:56,318
we can just create like as many touch points as possible

1010
01:24:56,318 --> 01:24:59,638
where people can like get on that one stepping stone

1011
01:24:59,638 --> 01:25:02,638
where they're like, okay, but why am I doing what I am doing?

1012
01:25:03,178 --> 01:25:05,838
If I don't understand it, why do I agree with it?

1013
01:25:05,898 --> 01:25:06,918
Like, what is the alternative?

1014
01:25:07,158 --> 01:25:09,618
What are all those things that I don't know?

1015
01:25:11,918 --> 01:25:13,718
Yeah, I just hope we can get there.

1016
01:25:13,838 --> 01:25:18,298
And on the other hand, I hope we can set the example

1017
01:25:18,298 --> 01:25:21,518
by having just free form conversations like this

1018
01:25:21,518 --> 01:25:26,878
to show that, yeah, it takes some time to get there, right?

1019
01:25:26,938 --> 01:25:27,938
And it's not easy.

1020
01:25:28,818 --> 01:25:31,218
But once you get there, as I mentioned before,

1021
01:25:31,318 --> 01:25:35,858
like for me, it's been really, really rewarding and freeing.

1022
01:25:35,858 --> 01:25:40,958
And yeah, I think that just adopting Bitcoin

1023
01:25:40,958 --> 01:25:46,118
really improved my life in way more ways than just financial.

1024
01:25:46,378 --> 01:25:48,898
And I think we could emphasize that more.

1025
01:25:48,898 --> 01:25:58,718
fantastic um i think uh now would be a good place for us to uh agree that uh this is a this is a

1026
01:25:58,718 --> 01:26:03,798
great conversation i'd love to continue it um grant i'm going to speak for you um and say that

1027
01:26:03,798 --> 01:26:09,298
that you would be interested in that as well so we'll look forward to doing that again um and on

1028
01:26:09,298 --> 01:26:15,558
the way out um typically i always tell everybody you know i'm lucas maddy i'm at lucas maddy on x

1029
01:26:15,558 --> 01:26:18,378
That's Grant. He's at the whole frame on X.

1030
01:26:19,058 --> 01:26:33,918
And Braum, I want to give you the chance to let everybody know where they can find the work that you do, how they can get in contact with you, and just to engage with the 45 people that are going to watch this on our channel.

1031
01:26:35,478 --> 01:26:37,378
Let's cross-post on my channel, hopefully.

1032
01:26:37,738 --> 01:26:39,178
Yeah, then it'll be here.

1033
01:26:41,238 --> 01:26:44,118
Yeah, no, no. Thanks again, guys. I really, really enjoyed this.

1034
01:26:44,118 --> 01:26:50,378
I think this is, to go back to something Grant said,

1035
01:26:50,518 --> 01:26:53,478
or what you said, Lucas, about what you apparently see in me,

1036
01:26:53,558 --> 01:26:58,038
and I like to hear that because it helps me to just continue.

1037
01:26:58,438 --> 01:27:01,038
A conversation like this gives me so much joy.

1038
01:27:01,298 --> 01:27:06,398
Again, it shows me that I'm not alone in these thoughts,

1039
01:27:06,518 --> 01:27:08,458
that there's a resonance with these thoughts,

1040
01:27:08,458 --> 01:27:19,058
And I think personally that really motivates me to just try, you know, doing what I'm doing in my own capacity for Bitcoin.

1041
01:27:19,578 --> 01:27:22,778
So I want to thank you for this conversation.

1042
01:27:23,098 --> 01:27:25,938
And yeah, where people can find me is on Twitter.

1043
01:27:26,078 --> 01:27:26,558
It's the easiest.

1044
01:27:26,718 --> 01:27:29,618
I still say Twitter, but it's Bram K, B-R-A-M-K.

1045
01:27:30,338 --> 01:27:36,918
And yeah, people can find my podcast, Bitcoin for Millennials, on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, anywhere they listen to podcasts.

1046
01:27:36,918 --> 01:27:37,638
So, yeah.

1047
01:27:38,458 --> 01:27:57,098
That's fantastic. Having this conversation as well, really, it does give me some excitement, not just because Grant and I usually just talk with each other and it's nice to have somebody new, even though he's the, I mean, this is the best conversationalist that I've ever been around.

1048
01:27:57,098 --> 01:28:05,618
Um, but, but also because like you said, it, it does give you not just a, not just a companion

1049
01:28:05,618 --> 01:28:13,018
in the journey, but there is a very real unmooring from reality that occurs when you step outside

1050
01:28:13,018 --> 01:28:17,798
the box, when you take the red pill and the orange pill and you move away from that system.

1051
01:28:17,798 --> 01:28:26,638
And it, it does have the effect of being, um, incredibly, um, lifting when you're going

1052
01:28:26,638 --> 01:28:32,998
with it. But if you're not feeling good about it, then it can be very demoralizing. It can be very

1053
01:28:32,998 --> 01:28:38,098
sad. And you see that resonating in a lot of areas with people that just have a lot of anger

1054
01:28:38,098 --> 01:28:43,178
towards the system, a lot of anxiety towards the system, a lot of angst that they push out.

1055
01:28:43,338 --> 01:28:50,798
And so as we continue to connect with more and more people and the people that will listen to

1056
01:28:50,798 --> 01:28:57,698
this, that's really, I think, more of the benefit that we'll ever find than people adopting Bitcoin,

1057
01:28:57,958 --> 01:29:03,718
which is people knowing that they're not alone in the journey that they have and working together,

1058
01:29:04,218 --> 01:29:11,438
finding someone on a frequency that they can resonate with. So I think that this has been

1059
01:29:11,438 --> 01:29:17,178
a fantastic discussion. Grant, thank you so much for leading this and sort of laying the groundwork

1060
01:29:17,178 --> 01:29:22,438
for us to do. And I would like to, I'll throw it back to Grant and let you kind of take us out if

1061
01:29:22,438 --> 01:29:26,278
you've got anything to say. And if not, then we're going to hit it. We're going to hit it. We're

1062
01:29:26,278 --> 01:29:29,818
going to quit it. Nothing of substance. Just thanks, Lucas and Braum. I really enjoyed the

1063
01:29:29,818 --> 01:29:34,198
conversation. It increased my understanding of software to hear you guys taking these concepts,

1064
01:29:34,358 --> 01:29:38,558
working them around, applying your own perspectives to them. So thanks for that. I really appreciate

1065
01:29:38,558 --> 01:29:44,958
it. Thanks. All right. Thank you for listening. If you like, please subscribe. Every little bit

1066
01:29:44,958 --> 01:29:49,798
gets me one tiny step closer to my ultimate goal of living in a cave. You never have to

1067
01:29:49,798 --> 01:29:54,958
buy windows or shingles and there's no lawn to mow. Look it up. Dream big, kids.