1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,880 We're back on Bitcoin study sessions. 2 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:04,420 We're taking a bit of a divergent path today. 3 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,700 Typically, we talk about canonical Bitcoin literature. 4 00:00:07,980 --> 00:00:09,040 We explore philosophy. 5 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:10,960 We look into academic papers. 6 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:16,860 But recently, we've taken a bit of a hard right into the practical. 7 00:00:17,700 --> 00:00:24,180 And we've invited on some people that are not just thinking about these things, but they're building them. 8 00:00:24,180 --> 00:00:34,060 And they are taking action within the environment to bring freedom technology to people in different ways. 9 00:00:34,700 --> 00:00:41,360 And with that, it is an absolute pleasure to have today Calvadev. 10 00:00:42,340 --> 00:00:50,660 And Calvadev, to give a little bit of an introduction, is just genuinely one of the best people I know. 11 00:00:50,660 --> 00:00:56,020 I'm sitting next to perhaps the best person I know, my co-host, Grant. 12 00:00:57,420 --> 00:00:58,720 The podcast will continue. Thank you. 13 00:00:59,460 --> 00:01:07,300 But Kalvadev, not only is he the fastest guy that I've ever seen do 100 burpees, 14 00:01:07,940 --> 00:01:13,700 he has impeccable taste in music and is just utterly kind. 15 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:18,500 He was one of the people that I experienced the network school with. 16 00:01:18,500 --> 00:01:31,700 And this chaotic yet ordered time of my life when we were doing just really incredible things as a group and bonding very deeply together. 17 00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:41,160 Kalvadev was also easily the number one highlight of Man Camp, which I taught at the Network State. 18 00:01:41,900 --> 00:01:46,020 Easily my best student and a great team player. 19 00:01:46,020 --> 00:01:52,680 but he's also a builder the this is the founder of shopster which is an online marketplace and 20 00:01:52,680 --> 00:02:01,600 also the founder of milk market of doing things to bring raw milk which i think i think we've 21 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:11,660 talked about renaming as milk and and bringing milk to people in a way that doesn't have 22 00:02:11,660 --> 00:02:18,220 intervention from bureaucrats, I would think it's probably a good way to say it. 23 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,220 So we're going to talk about freedom technology. 24 00:02:21,660 --> 00:02:23,120 We're going to talk about philosophy. 25 00:02:23,640 --> 00:02:26,920 And yeah, we're going to talk about that fantastic head of hair. 26 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:33,780 You're looking very, very, you killed my father. 27 00:02:33,780 --> 00:02:41,940 yeah i can't uh i have to wear the hoodie up because otherwise my my real uh rattiness is 28 00:02:41,940 --> 00:02:47,780 going to be revealed yeah you just you oh you always look like you're in search of a six-fingered 29 00:02:47,780 --> 00:02:55,800 man yeah uh thank you thank you for joining us today um joining us from seattle um if he's 30 00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:01,780 knifed on the street then we'll just uh continue on and run some credits so it's just the happenings 31 00:03:01,780 --> 00:03:08,000 of the day yeah uh tell us what's good man um tell us about milk market um kind of give people 32 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:17,860 i guess um maybe a background on your motivation why you have chosen to exit a role with a you know 33 00:03:17,860 --> 00:03:24,320 high paying corporate job in order to become a founder in freedom technology yeah so i think the 34 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:28,820 uh the furthest back i can like trace most of stuff is like going back to college and that's 35 00:03:28,820 --> 00:03:35,120 where um i went i went to ut dallas and ross olbrick is actually one of the he's like the most 36 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:40,380 famous alumni from that university so he went there for his undergrad for physics and like there 37 00:03:40,380 --> 00:03:45,320 was always like this uh cover of like oh ross olbrick was here the founder of the silk road 38 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,720 is here like that's what and then the other most famous person from our school his name's on the 39 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:54,660 business building and he was also he's a famous indian investor who was arrested for fraud so it's 40 00:03:54,660 --> 00:04:01,880 like our our our university just pumps out criminals i guess but um i i was inspired in in a 41 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:06,480 way to like not necessarily by like the the spreading of drugs and all this stuff but by 42 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:14,020 trying to create open market uh systems founded in like free market principles and being able to 43 00:04:14,020 --> 00:04:19,340 like uh not have to rely on third parties in order to be able to just interact and exchange 44 00:04:19,340 --> 00:04:24,800 cooperate with human beings so um as i was like approaching the end of college and i was already 45 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,840 getting my internships and stuff lined up i was like feeling a bit of an itch to just try something 46 00:04:28,840 --> 00:04:35,420 on my own because i'd never i'd never coded or done anything outside of like my out of the jobs 47 00:04:35,420 --> 00:04:41,100 that i had to do so i wanted to have like personal experience with things and i took a random trip i 48 00:04:41,100 --> 00:04:44,580 took a week off from school i just didn't go to any classes that week and i took a random trip to 49 00:04:44,580 --> 00:04:50,860 san francisco and i did i went to a hackathon uh actually at a repli hackathon like before vibe 50 00:04:50,860 --> 00:04:55,180 coding was even coined and all this stuff just like ai assisted stuff and i pumped out like the 51 00:04:55,180 --> 00:05:02,060 first version of shopster um and uh because uh and a lot of the like the initial motivation came from 52 00:05:02,060 --> 00:05:08,120 when i first found out about nostr it was all like focused around uh it was all focused around 53 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:12,020 social media and just like social aspects of stuff and by that point when i had found out about it 54 00:05:12,020 --> 00:05:14,900 which was around 2022 or the end of 2022, 2023. 55 00:05:17,020 --> 00:05:19,600 I had already removed all of my social media. 56 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:20,720 I hadn't had anything. 57 00:05:21,020 --> 00:05:22,100 I didn't really engage with anything. 58 00:05:22,220 --> 00:05:24,520 I actually just found Jack Dorsey tweeting about it 59 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:25,600 because a friend shared a link 60 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:27,680 and I didn't even have like the account or anything. 61 00:05:27,740 --> 00:05:28,660 I was just able to view it. 62 00:05:29,180 --> 00:05:30,440 And I was like, oh, this seems interesting. 63 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:34,280 So I downloaded it and started posting notes on it. 64 00:05:35,140 --> 00:05:36,640 And as things evolved, 65 00:05:36,780 --> 00:05:38,900 and I actually got a little bit more interested 66 00:05:38,900 --> 00:05:40,040 in contributing to Bitcoin, 67 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:45,460 finding a way to like actually maybe push some changes to Bitcoin Core, to Lightning, to the 68 00:05:45,460 --> 00:05:52,760 Lightning Network, LND, I started reviewing the Nostra protocol and I saw how simple and easy it 69 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:57,380 was to actually like add things to it. And there was already some specifications to allow for like 70 00:05:57,380 --> 00:06:05,260 certain commerce, mainly classified listings. And I took that with a friend of mine and we both ran 71 00:06:05,260 --> 00:06:10,280 with it and we kind of like brought it out of the fold and released the first version of shopster 72 00:06:10,280 --> 00:06:14,980 and i still have a video how it first looked and man is it crazy to see how things have progressed 73 00:06:14,980 --> 00:06:19,240 and how shitty it was but it worked it functioned which was like what we were trying to get done 74 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:26,040 and ultimately is what matters at the and at the start if it works it's a great place to 75 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:36,400 to actually keep going from um but from there uh i i saw nostr not as a like a way to like fix 76 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,860 twitter or fix social media i saw it more as like a tool for onboarding more people onto bitcoin 77 00:06:40,860 --> 00:06:45,800 and that's how actually what led me into like cashew as well because when i was first developing 78 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:51,760 everything uh not having so much technical experience with like integrating with all the 79 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,780 lightning node things and like handling liquidity management all this stuff um i found 80 00:06:55,780 --> 00:07:04,740 I just like stumbled upon Cashew, like in eCash, and I saw how simple it was to integrate payments into it while still having Bitcoin native interoperability with it. 81 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:18,680 And the thing that, as we touched on before the call, one of the things that I've been focused on recently is kind of introducing people into the systems, the freedom technology systems, without having to necessarily throw it in their face that they're interacting with them. 82 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:23,780 Give them better experiences, give them better technical ability to not have to understand everything. 83 00:07:23,780 --> 00:07:27,860 and they'll naturally just become experts 84 00:07:27,860 --> 00:07:28,940 in how to use the technology 85 00:07:28,940 --> 00:07:30,280 without even having realized it. 86 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:31,960 And Cash is one of those things 87 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,220 that makes interacting with Bitcoin very seamless 88 00:07:34,220 --> 00:07:36,520 because you don't even have to like download wallets. 89 00:07:36,580 --> 00:07:37,420 You don't have to do these things. 90 00:07:37,620 --> 00:07:39,160 If you want to like have the full functionality of it, 91 00:07:39,220 --> 00:07:40,980 yes, you do have to like get a little bit more involved. 92 00:07:41,500 --> 00:07:43,960 But as a starting point for new novices 93 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:45,520 and for people who are just getting into it, 94 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,300 it's a great way to like kind of blanket 95 00:07:49,300 --> 00:07:54,700 and abstract the underlying Bitcoin technology from it. 96 00:07:55,200 --> 00:08:00,580 And from there, that just kind of allowed the marketplace to start growing 97 00:08:00,580 --> 00:08:04,260 and getting a little bit more interest, just like fixating on things. 98 00:08:04,860 --> 00:08:08,100 And I was just working on the weekends while I was working my corporate job. 99 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,900 And I actually was working two corporate jobs, so I was over-employed for a bit, 100 00:08:12,300 --> 00:08:16,680 trying to just save as much as I could and work on Shopify on the side. 101 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:23,820 and after nine months uh i got an invitation or i got accepted to go to a program called 102 00:08:23,820 --> 00:08:29,320 sovereign engineering in madera which is like a it was like the second cohort which was uh basically 103 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:33,840 sovereign engineering is like a little program similar to the networks uh network state network 104 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:38,860 school uh where they just invite a bunch of builders uh this one was much more much smaller 105 00:08:38,860 --> 00:08:43,160 much more constrained um because especially at the time that's when uh wasabi wallet was shutting 106 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,480 down samurai wall the samurai wall developed straight to get arrested so it was a kind of like 107 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:51,480 tumultuous time people were a little bit uh on edge so there's like around 20 people that that 108 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:57,920 came to the island and there that's when i uh because of that opportunity i just was like screw 109 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:04,140 it i did like a cost analysis of like what is the possible risk of me uh trying to go all in and 110 00:09:04,140 --> 00:09:08,800 failing and basically it's just i get to move in with my parents have food on the table and have a 111 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,260 loving family so it's like there's not really much that can really go wrong other than i just don't 112 00:09:12,260 --> 00:09:18,520 have money of my own, which is fine. Still pretty young, so I can try and make that up along the way. 113 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:23,800 And from there, it's just been a journey of going all over the place, visiting a bunch of 114 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:29,220 different conferences, seeing a bunch of different cultures and experiencing a lot of the stuff that 115 00:09:29,220 --> 00:09:34,960 really makes people work together and engage in commerce, which was truly valuable with it. 116 00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:40,100 And at Network School, which was earlier this year, or early last year, actually, I forget it's 117 00:09:40,100 --> 00:09:42,220 2026. But earlier last year, 118 00:09:43,220 --> 00:09:47,460 that's where I was like focusing and trying to figure out exactly what I could 119 00:09:47,460 --> 00:09:51,800 grow and like help onboard more people into the marketplace. 120 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:56,780 And that's when I was looking at different avenues and different specific niches 121 00:09:56,780 --> 00:09:59,720 that I could like focus on to try and gather more interest. 122 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,260 And when I was looking at the obvious one is obviously drugs, 123 00:10:03,260 --> 00:10:06,680 but you don't want to really involve yourself in that type of legal battle or 124 00:10:06,680 --> 00:10:09,220 like the legal gray areas that are involved with that. And, 125 00:10:09,220 --> 00:10:11,380 as I was getting more and more involved, 126 00:10:11,580 --> 00:10:13,280 along the way, I'd have gone into health, 127 00:10:13,340 --> 00:10:15,440 and I was trying to improve my diet 128 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,660 and all that stuff, and raw milk 129 00:10:17,660 --> 00:10:19,480 especially came to be 130 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:21,100 one of the things that I found 131 00:10:21,100 --> 00:10:23,500 so heavily regulated. I hadn't known 132 00:10:23,500 --> 00:10:25,500 at the time, because I live in Seattle, so I guess I had 133 00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:27,460 pretty good laws with regards 134 00:10:27,460 --> 00:10:29,580 to it, so I would just go to the grocery store and pick it up. 135 00:10:29,620 --> 00:10:31,360 I thought it was just normal, but it's 136 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,620 more regulated than marijuana 137 00:10:33,620 --> 00:10:35,680 in most of the country. It's more regulated 138 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:37,460 than heroin in certain places, 139 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:38,840 and you're 140 00:10:39,220 --> 00:10:45,440 it's treated like such a risky and dangerous thing when it's simply something that just comes 141 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:50,760 out of an animal that people just have every day and like that are have had for generations so 142 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:59,160 and more broadly as well the food system is what uh like really is just so terrible to like the 143 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:04,720 food producers and uh even like the end consumers because there's just so much regulatory middlemen 144 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,440 that deal with a lot of the butchering. 145 00:11:08,620 --> 00:11:10,900 You have to go to USDA certified butchers 146 00:11:10,900 --> 00:11:12,280 in order to be able to sell to your neighbor, 147 00:11:12,460 --> 00:11:13,140 which is crazy. 148 00:11:13,300 --> 00:11:15,200 You can't even just hand them a piece of steak. 149 00:11:15,300 --> 00:11:16,040 You can't hand them eggs. 150 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,340 There's just so much regulatory obfuscation 151 00:11:20,340 --> 00:11:22,360 that goes into blocking commerce. 152 00:11:22,620 --> 00:11:26,700 And one of the things that we're trying to fix 153 00:11:26,700 --> 00:11:28,420 is actually making it as easy as possible 154 00:11:28,420 --> 00:11:30,200 for people to onboard onto these free systems 155 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,400 to allow them to not have to... 156 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,320 Obviously, we don't want them to violate the law, 157 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:42,040 But for them to, if anything happens to their operations where they're like shut out from being able to engage economically, they still have an option. 158 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:46,340 They have a plan B where they can exit with Bitcoin, exit with Nostra. 159 00:11:46,620 --> 00:11:54,200 They don't have to rely on like Shopify, Amazon or these big corporations who like dictate everything that's sold on the platform and don't allow them to operate their business. 160 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:59,320 Even if it's something so simple as like milk or beef or creams or any of these things. 161 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:03,980 Like there's just so much open area for people to be able to like engage in commerce. 162 00:12:03,980 --> 00:12:10,800 And fundamentally, I believe commerce is like the main thing that allows humanity to like be as cooperative as possible. 163 00:12:10,900 --> 00:12:19,960 There's no other there's no other activity that we do as human beings that like can connect cultures so dramatically other than like probably music and food. 164 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:25,820 And that's why the intersection of culture and food is one of the reasons why we're like focused on this specific marketplace. 165 00:12:25,820 --> 00:12:50,760 Yeah, there's a lot in that. One thing that I want to note is just the mindset that you approach things and kind of what you discussed. Like this is something I noticed about your personality at the network school, which is that you are, A, you're brilliant, but B, you're also not forceful with these things. 166 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,860 a lot of people that have ideas want to pound them into the heads of other people. 167 00:12:55,600 --> 00:13:05,460 And I've never seen you be confrontational or engage in any sort of I'm right, you're wrong. 168 00:13:06,060 --> 00:13:14,360 You have just found a way in order to express the ideas that you believe in. 169 00:13:16,020 --> 00:13:20,180 One thing I want to ask you about is the experience of building on Noster. 170 00:13:20,180 --> 00:13:31,860 you noted that. Can you compare that to traditional or traditional legacy type of like app development 171 00:13:31,860 --> 00:13:41,400 with Google Play Store or the iTunes store? You say that it's so much easier. Can you kind of 172 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:48,980 frame that out? Like what's easier about building on Noster than say, I was trying to design an app 173 00:13:48,980 --> 00:13:56,400 and I found it to be very difficult, mainly because of the, 174 00:13:57,340 --> 00:14:00,880 like you have to build everything from scratch, basically. 175 00:14:01,340 --> 00:14:04,980 Or you find it, you know, you find it and you repurpose it. 176 00:14:04,980 --> 00:14:11,780 But what fundamentally makes it easier to build on Noster 177 00:14:11,780 --> 00:14:16,720 than to go out and develop an app and put it into the Google Play Store? 178 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:24,440 yeah i think uh there's there's a few aspects to that uh one of the at least one of the early 179 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:30,360 things for me was just that since you don't have to like basically request permission from anyone 180 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:34,200 to be able to like access and start building on top of it even modifying the protocol like 181 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:39,880 experimenting with it you have full like open pastors of what you can experiment with and what 182 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:45,060 you can try out and especially when you're starting early uh one of the things that you 183 00:14:45,060 --> 00:14:49,760 always need is like live user data and you also need to be able to store that live user data uh 184 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,560 like cheaply as cheaply as you can because like you're not usually not running on a lot of capital 185 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:59,000 and one of the very big benefits you get from uh developing on top of nostr is that you have 186 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,940 basically like the relay infrastructure or it's like a distributed network of servers that people 187 00:15:02,940 --> 00:15:09,460 can like swap in and out of and like uh pour over their data from uh seamlessly by having that 188 00:15:09,460 --> 00:15:14,020 whenever i'm like creating an application i can already find like a directory of all these relays 189 00:15:14,020 --> 00:15:18,320 all these servers that are accessible and just like pull in data from it that is already live 190 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,500 and that's like already being active and used so you can actually like verify and immediately start 191 00:15:22,500 --> 00:15:28,680 testing out and playing around with real data and different server connections redundancy and you 192 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:33,580 can actually start your application because like in the very very early days with the original 193 00:15:33,580 --> 00:15:38,460 shopster marketplace we had zero we didn't run any servers other than like the website 194 00:15:38,460 --> 00:15:42,620 and like we didn't have any back end and that was by design as well because we didn't want to be 195 00:15:42,620 --> 00:15:46,200 liable for like hosting all this data because that was one of the big things that like uh came 196 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:51,240 from uh from the silk road uh like actual hosting and the controlling of the data access and since 197 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:56,080 we didn't have any of these servers we had like a little bit of uh resiliency on the legal side one 198 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:01,060 but then also our cost to actually operate and like run the website was just like so minimal 199 00:16:01,060 --> 00:16:06,660 uh because it basically just the cost of like the ai subscription that i had on replit uh and it's 200 00:16:06,660 --> 00:16:11,760 just uh managing managing all the data becomes much easier because it's just distributed and 201 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:16,740 already like offloaded for you so it makes the developer access much simpler because all you 202 00:16:16,740 --> 00:16:20,720 have to do is write code you don't have to like try to procure servers have to do all these things 203 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:26,340 you're very easily uh like the the resource intensity of being able to build on top of it 204 00:16:26,340 --> 00:16:33,800 is not high and uh due to the nature of like the the the play store and like the app store and all 205 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,300 that stuff um if you're building like a mobile app on top of it you're still going to have to like 206 00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:42,400 kind of succumb to that but with especially now because like the ai tools are getting a lot easier 207 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:47,840 to like kind of at least if you have some like uh technical contextual knowledge of like the of 208 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:52,600 the protocols you're working with and can like uh verbalize it a bit uh whenever you're like 209 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:57,900 prompting the the models uh the the ai does actually a pretty decent job of like generating 210 00:16:57,900 --> 00:17:02,220 like a base level of like okay this is how nostril works so then i can like start building on top of 211 00:17:02,220 --> 00:17:07,440 it and like grabbed real data so you're more um you just have a little bit more flexibility 212 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:12,120 and ease and simplicity because you have a data standard so you don't have to like when you're 213 00:17:12,120 --> 00:17:17,040 creating a new app usually you have to like decide on the data schemas and like figure out how exactly 214 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,900 it's going to be stored how you want to structure it and then often you change that very very quickly 215 00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:24,860 so you have to like change your whole database and do all this stuff so with nostrils you have 216 00:17:24,860 --> 00:17:30,060 at least some base standard you're able to like work from that and have like a a simple understanding 217 00:17:30,060 --> 00:17:31,820 and then just experiment and grow from there. 218 00:17:32,780 --> 00:17:35,940 So simply put, like when I develop an app, 219 00:17:36,060 --> 00:17:38,120 I have two things that I have to do. 220 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:39,920 I have to develop the client side, 221 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,500 which is what people interact with. 222 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,060 And I also have to develop the server side, 223 00:17:45,220 --> 00:17:48,080 which is how it's the kitchen. 224 00:17:48,220 --> 00:17:49,740 It's where things actually happen. 225 00:17:50,460 --> 00:17:54,120 So would you say then that developing on Noster 226 00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:57,300 allows you to focus more on the client side 227 00:17:57,300 --> 00:17:58,720 and the user experience, 228 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:07,440 the user interface and you have a lot less to it's a lot it's a lot lighter lift on the back end on 229 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:12,920 the server side yeah yeah there's definitely the dynamic that you get especially and new developers 230 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,800 coming into it am i like especially like the hardcore developers might not might be a little 231 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,740 against that because they want to like work on the back end like that's where like since that's 232 00:18:19,740 --> 00:18:26,140 where all the meat is um but this actually allows uh your mentality to like kind of shift more 233 00:18:26,140 --> 00:18:31,080 towards like a product focus rather than just like an engineering focus because that's in the 234 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:36,520 end where every like successful product gets uh grows and they actually become successful is 235 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:41,560 through design and through marketing and through like the actual interfaces of everything like once 236 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:48,860 you're able to uh communicate uh or simply uh like whether it is like the the actual like text on the 237 00:18:48,860 --> 00:18:52,700 on the on the screen whenever you're actually like interacting with the website or how the 238 00:18:52,700 --> 00:19:00,280 uh, website interact, how you interact with it, uh, by being able to more consciously know how to 239 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:07,860 communicate, uh, simply in those ways, you're able to actually have a more friendly and more 240 00:19:07,860 --> 00:19:12,440 a quote unquote viral application that can grow and start growing more steadily. And like, you're 241 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,540 not, that's one of the biggest shifts too. You have to have a bit more of a consumer focused 242 00:19:16,540 --> 00:19:21,120 mindset and product focused mindset, uh, or rather a distribution focused mindset through the product 243 00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:23,660 rather than just a full-on technical thing. 244 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:25,180 Like I'm always building, building, building, building 245 00:19:25,180 --> 00:19:28,280 because you have to offload a lot of the work from it. 246 00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:31,780 So kind of give me an idea. 247 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,440 So Shopster has been up and running for four years now. 248 00:19:35,060 --> 00:19:35,700 Is that about that? 249 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:57,454 It been about close to three close to three Close to three So in doing that what have you seen in terms of like growth and number of users and um how does that compare to like i when i look at things and i 250 00:19:57,454 --> 00:20:02,974 try to evaluate their usefulness i'm a lot less concerned with where they're at and more concerned 251 00:20:02,974 --> 00:20:03,914 with where they're going. 252 00:20:04,813 --> 00:20:06,734 Trajectory is way more important than position. 253 00:20:07,593 --> 00:20:11,393 So what is the trajectory of Shopster 254 00:20:11,393 --> 00:20:15,454 and how it relates to other types of market, 255 00:20:15,494 --> 00:20:17,113 other marketplaces on Noster? 256 00:20:18,393 --> 00:20:19,153 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 257 00:20:19,273 --> 00:20:21,793 So I can't actually speak too much 258 00:20:21,793 --> 00:20:23,613 to the other marketplaces 259 00:20:23,613 --> 00:20:24,833 because there's actually, 260 00:20:25,353 --> 00:20:27,313 that are actively used as one other one. 261 00:20:27,853 --> 00:20:29,434 And they also, yeah, they have no, 262 00:20:29,553 --> 00:20:31,293 at least they have no like published 263 00:20:31,293 --> 00:20:34,474 or they haven't talked about their usage that they have. 264 00:20:34,753 --> 00:20:36,133 I'm assuming they're doing fairly well. 265 00:20:36,474 --> 00:20:39,873 But yeah, there's only one that's currently live and working. 266 00:20:40,033 --> 00:20:42,914 And there's a couple others that are in development. 267 00:20:44,234 --> 00:20:50,633 And then the other one that's live is directly through the social client Amethyst on Android. 268 00:20:50,773 --> 00:20:55,013 So that one's not really the most accurate because it's not... 269 00:20:55,013 --> 00:20:59,194 All the users are just across every single possible application in that app 270 00:20:59,194 --> 00:21:00,013 because they have a lot. 271 00:21:00,093 --> 00:21:00,734 They have live streaming. 272 00:21:00,734 --> 00:21:03,593 they have twitter they have the marketplace so they have a lot of different things in that 273 00:21:03,593 --> 00:21:12,313 um but uh with regards like the like our shoppers the trajectory itself like definitely it's it's 274 00:21:12,313 --> 00:21:17,174 picked up a lot more uh in like the the recent years because i remember whenever we first launched 275 00:21:17,174 --> 00:21:22,513 it we didn't have anyone using it for like the first five six months i think if i remember 276 00:21:22,513 --> 00:21:26,674 correctly so there was just like no activity because people were still getting like i guess 277 00:21:26,674 --> 00:21:31,174 comfortable with the idea of like having being able to like engage and buy stuff through nostrils 278 00:21:31,174 --> 00:21:35,393 and nostril itself was just so young and people were just like comfortable with it using as twitter 279 00:21:35,393 --> 00:21:41,093 they didn't want to really get super involved with like the direct economic activity um but 280 00:21:41,093 --> 00:21:46,434 as uh it got picked up by some of the like the big nostril developers that's specific like vtor 281 00:21:46,434 --> 00:21:51,613 because that's why he uh who works on amethyst he that's why he uh implemented into the app 282 00:21:51,613 --> 00:21:58,853 because of shopster um then we started getting a bit more uh more traffic and um while a bit more 283 00:21:58,853 --> 00:22:03,053 like uh in late last year that's when we had like the most activity the second half of last year 284 00:22:03,053 --> 00:22:12,214 um and uh it's it's still not like the it's not like comparable to like the early internet um 285 00:22:12,214 --> 00:22:16,513 uh like growth of like shopify and amazon all that stuff because those were like compounding 286 00:22:16,513 --> 00:22:20,914 like it's for like the first few months it was like millions of dollars of volume um but that's 287 00:22:20,914 --> 00:22:27,793 also because the idea of e-commerce is just so novel and incredibly yeah incredibly new so people 288 00:22:27,793 --> 00:22:33,414 just weren't like it was just like mind-blowing to be able to like engage in that online um and at 289 00:22:33,414 --> 00:22:38,914 the moment uh the biggest uh the biggest learning for myself at least in in these years uh has been 290 00:22:38,914 --> 00:22:44,734 uh as i mentioned a little bit earlier uh focusing solely on product and features is not what 291 00:22:44,734 --> 00:22:50,653 actually drives growth and adoption it's more of like finding the specific community that you 292 00:22:50,653 --> 00:22:54,093 actually solve a real problem for and a specific group that you solve a real problem for you have 293 00:22:54,093 --> 00:22:59,934 to find a natural subsect of the population to do that and like when i first started i just thought 294 00:22:59,934 --> 00:23:04,573 okay my customers are bitcoiners and nostril users but then that's so broad and so general 295 00:23:04,573 --> 00:23:10,734 and then uh you're not like actually going into the people that are that truly find it valuable 296 00:23:10,734 --> 00:23:15,434 like the direct merchants who sell like their artisan crafts and then that that that sell it 297 00:23:15,434 --> 00:23:19,694 on repeat that's like who actually would find something like this valuable and we have had 298 00:23:19,694 --> 00:23:23,934 people who like actually get started who start their businesses using shopster um and then 299 00:23:23,934 --> 00:23:29,694 eventually just move off towards other things like they either host a website uh or uh run like 300 00:23:29,694 --> 00:23:36,454 a different payment server or even like use the original traditional um marketplaces uh and one 301 00:23:36,454 --> 00:23:42,474 of the things from that i think is that when starting with something that requires a lot of 302 00:23:42,474 --> 00:23:46,234 like consumer like knowledge shift especially like getting comfortable using bitcoin solely as the 303 00:23:46,234 --> 00:23:51,293 payment rail and all this stuff you have to kind of introduce like you have to you have to broadcast 304 00:23:51,293 --> 00:23:56,893 the usage of these technologies side by side with like traditional legacy technology so like for 305 00:23:56,893 --> 00:24:01,753 example on milk market we actually do accept um credit card we allow for people to sign in with 306 00:24:01,753 --> 00:24:05,993 google we have to be allowed to like these traditional legacy things um and this is for a 307 00:24:05,993 --> 00:24:11,393 function of like allowing for as broad access as possible but also like consumer behavior doesn't 308 00:24:11,393 --> 00:24:15,093 change by just like forcing it in front of them which i learned with the original shopster and 309 00:24:15,093 --> 00:24:19,853 Like the original Shopster will still be like Bitcoin only, Nostra only. 310 00:24:20,033 --> 00:24:22,053 There won't be like any compromises on that end. 311 00:24:22,293 --> 00:24:26,653 It'll just be like the basic, the cypherpunk marketplace that I originally created. 312 00:24:26,873 --> 00:24:28,553 And I'll always be continuing to develop it. 313 00:24:28,553 --> 00:24:37,293 But when trying to actually scale and access more, provide more support for the farmers and for people who try to connect with them, 314 00:24:37,293 --> 00:24:45,533 um we want to make it uh we want to make it as convenient as possible to for people to be 315 00:24:45,533 --> 00:24:50,853 exposed to these technologies every single day so you want to have it on the side you want to have 316 00:24:50,853 --> 00:24:56,174 like give maybe give a discount on top of like the normal prices just to engage with it uh similar 317 00:24:56,174 --> 00:25:03,033 with like the house square release like the uh the ability to pay with bitcoin uh different terminals 318 00:25:03,033 --> 00:25:07,694 like uh it's not really like in your face like oh we accept bitcoin or like any of this stuff but 319 00:25:07,694 --> 00:25:11,633 like if you find it on the map it's like okay i can get comfortably get used to it even like the 320 00:25:11,633 --> 00:25:16,273 merchants themselves it wasn't thrown at them to uh before so you have to accept bitcoin it'll 321 00:25:16,273 --> 00:25:20,194 drive more customers it was simple like opt-in if you want to accept that you can if you don't 322 00:25:20,194 --> 00:25:29,393 you don't have to and uh yeah it there just has to be uh more focus on developing like a sense of 323 00:25:29,393 --> 00:25:36,653 community and a sense of, um, uh, a sense of, I guess like movement or mission around a particular 324 00:25:36,653 --> 00:25:40,434 thing before people start actually changing their consumer behavior and like getting involved 325 00:25:40,434 --> 00:25:45,694 and feeling comfortable, uh, engaging with it every single day. Um, so that's like the biggest 326 00:25:45,694 --> 00:25:50,373 thing that's happened with me. Um, and we've had like, uh, good volumes just on Bitcoin only, 327 00:25:50,373 --> 00:25:54,813 but because the Nostra market and like the Bitcoin market of like artisan goods and like 328 00:25:54,813 --> 00:25:58,813 people that are selling like their, their, their crafts on, on shopster is relatively small. It's 329 00:25:58,813 --> 00:26:01,974 not going to be massive massive volume in total we've processed around like fifteen thousand 330 00:26:01,974 --> 00:26:07,513 dollars worth of uh of transactions uh over over the site which isn't nothing but it's definitely 331 00:26:07,513 --> 00:26:12,553 not like uh uh like millions and millions of dollars but it's it's growing and we're trying 332 00:26:12,553 --> 00:26:18,313 to like keep it consistent and have more um get more people finding it valuable so we're just 333 00:26:18,313 --> 00:26:24,053 that's why we think uh with specifically with like the the milk market site um farmers are 334 00:26:24,053 --> 00:26:31,674 people who can actually truly benefit from the technology, but because of how averse to new 335 00:26:31,674 --> 00:26:36,153 things, new changes they can be, you don't want to throw it at them. It's like, oh, we accept 336 00:26:36,153 --> 00:26:40,053 Bitcoin. We do all this. We'll do all that. We use Nostris. We use private keys to control your 337 00:26:40,053 --> 00:26:43,853 accounts. You want to gradually bring them into it. That's a very, very big thing. 338 00:26:44,873 --> 00:26:51,934 I got one more question on kind of how Shopster works. And then I'm kind of excited to hear what 339 00:26:51,934 --> 00:26:58,333 what Grant's got to say on this because you have dropped some nice little philosophical nuggets 340 00:26:58,333 --> 00:27:06,573 here. But how does Shopster deal with the consumer protection problem? So when eBay 341 00:27:06,573 --> 00:27:14,214 kind of took off, I guess, is when they basically put Big Brother into the system. 342 00:27:14,714 --> 00:27:21,493 And they said, look, you know, if you have a bad experience, then we'll help you recover your 343 00:27:21,493 --> 00:27:27,954 funds and, um, you know, there's a rating for everybody on eBay, just like now, if you look at 344 00:27:27,954 --> 00:27:34,934 Amazon, the first, if I, if I shop on Amazon, literally the first thing I do is I look at the 345 00:27:34,934 --> 00:27:42,714 reviews and I note the seller's history and stuff like that. So, um, how do you solve that problem 346 00:27:42,714 --> 00:27:51,373 or can that problem be solved? And I guess what is the, what is the seller behavior like 347 00:27:51,373 --> 00:27:54,993 if you take off that big brother chain 348 00:27:54,993 --> 00:28:00,573 and you allow people to simply act in their own interest? 349 00:28:02,373 --> 00:28:04,474 Yeah, so the way we do it, 350 00:28:04,553 --> 00:28:06,273 currently we do have a review system, 351 00:28:06,454 --> 00:28:10,373 but obviously it's all run over the Nostra protocol, 352 00:28:10,373 --> 00:28:13,633 so Shopster itself has no ability to take anything down, 353 00:28:14,093 --> 00:28:16,394 to remove anything, to have any control 354 00:28:16,394 --> 00:28:17,573 over what's being said on there. 355 00:28:17,573 --> 00:28:25,773 so um a nice thing yeah a nice thing for sellers is that whenever they they transfer over like for 356 00:28:25,773 --> 00:28:29,434 some reason if they transfer over from one marketplace to another um they could actually 357 00:28:29,434 --> 00:28:34,293 carry over all the reviews from that marketplace and everything shows up so or like since the 358 00:28:34,293 --> 00:28:37,394 protocol is interoperable they don't even have to like move over to another platform if they're 359 00:28:37,394 --> 00:28:41,214 just viewing the products or something through another marketplace they can see the same reviews 360 00:28:41,214 --> 00:28:46,513 they can see the same uh history of everything so there's a little bit of an established reputation 361 00:28:46,513 --> 00:28:54,214 there for the seller um and currently um because we have worked on some escrow solutions to help 362 00:28:54,214 --> 00:28:58,593 like uh like buyers like protect their their fund in case the seller's trying to scam or something 363 00:28:58,593 --> 00:29:04,174 but largely i think um when it comes to a lot of this activity whenever we 364 00:29:04,174 --> 00:29:11,154 like what comes out of allowing the the marketplace to have the ability to like 365 00:29:11,154 --> 00:29:16,113 completely refund you or they have to deal with all that stuff um not only adds overhead to like 366 00:29:16,113 --> 00:29:22,833 the business operating class itself but it also removes like our the need for us to have any 367 00:29:22,833 --> 00:29:28,373 conscious thought about the things we're buying so we're just like immediately we're not allowed 368 00:29:28,373 --> 00:29:33,133 we're not allowing ourselves to like think for ourselves and like try and be like okay 369 00:29:33,133 --> 00:29:37,513 if i just see something on amazon and i have reviews and i know i can get a refund i'll just 370 00:29:37,513 --> 00:29:40,954 buy it whatever and then it comes here and it's like never mind i don't want it and then you just 371 00:29:40,954 --> 00:29:44,793 have like more more junk accumulating when instead if you're like thinking a bit more consciously 372 00:29:44,793 --> 00:29:49,333 about if you have a little bit of like a potential risk of like interacting with something that's 373 00:29:49,333 --> 00:29:53,133 online like that you're going to be thinking okay do I really want to buy this do I want to spend 374 00:29:53,133 --> 00:29:57,853 this much money for it don't want to engage with this person there's a little bit more 375 00:29:57,853 --> 00:30:03,394 conscious thought that goes into actually like engaging in the activity and that inadvertently 376 00:30:03,394 --> 00:30:07,654 like creates a little bit more trust when actually you actually do engage with it so you can actually 377 00:30:07,654 --> 00:30:11,573 start building like a community with the merchant directly you start building that reputation 378 00:30:11,573 --> 00:30:12,434 naturally. 379 00:30:13,293 --> 00:30:14,434 And yeah, 380 00:30:14,434 --> 00:30:15,293 that's one of the things 381 00:30:15,293 --> 00:30:16,894 that I think is like, 382 00:30:16,973 --> 00:30:18,373 because we have like 383 00:30:18,373 --> 00:30:19,753 finalized some escrow stuff, 384 00:30:19,833 --> 00:30:20,714 but I also haven't wanted 385 00:30:20,714 --> 00:30:21,533 to like fully release it 386 00:30:21,533 --> 00:30:22,113 because I've just been like 387 00:30:22,113 --> 00:30:22,733 wanting to see 388 00:30:22,733 --> 00:30:23,813 how the market 389 00:30:23,813 --> 00:30:24,873 naturally reacts to that. 390 00:30:25,273 --> 00:30:26,633 And what we found as well 391 00:30:26,633 --> 00:30:27,773 with, 392 00:30:27,894 --> 00:30:29,553 because one cool thing 393 00:30:29,553 --> 00:30:30,313 with Noster 394 00:30:30,313 --> 00:30:31,753 is like the social graph 395 00:30:31,753 --> 00:30:33,154 that you can plug into 396 00:30:33,154 --> 00:30:34,053 basically the application 397 00:30:34,053 --> 00:30:35,674 throughout any type of application, 398 00:30:35,773 --> 00:30:36,233 even if it's on 399 00:30:36,233 --> 00:30:37,253 a social media application. 400 00:30:37,694 --> 00:30:38,633 And one thing that we've done 401 00:30:38,633 --> 00:30:39,654 is we have like 402 00:30:39,654 --> 00:30:40,493 what's called 403 00:30:40,493 --> 00:30:41,273 the web of trust 404 00:30:41,573 --> 00:31:00,753 And with the web of trust, you're able to basically utilize the social graph to filter out accounts that aren't connected to it. So like basically, if I follow Lucas and Lucas follows Grant, I will be able to see Grant's posts. But if I follow Lucas and Lucas doesn't follow Grant, then I won't be able to see Grant's posts. 405 00:31:00,753 --> 00:31:05,033 The grant just doesn't exist, even if his stuff is showing up in the marketplace. 406 00:31:05,473 --> 00:31:06,533 I can filter it out. 407 00:31:06,934 --> 00:31:13,894 And this helps with a lot of new accounts who are just spinning up a new Nostra account that have no profile, no nothing. 408 00:31:14,013 --> 00:31:15,793 And they're just trying to sell something and then scam someone. 409 00:31:16,233 --> 00:31:18,133 Because you can just very simply filter a lot of that out. 410 00:31:18,154 --> 00:31:18,894 There's no reputation. 411 00:31:19,033 --> 00:31:19,533 There's no history. 412 00:31:20,093 --> 00:31:24,753 And because of the fact that there's a social aspect plugged into the Nostra protocol, 413 00:31:24,753 --> 00:31:30,773 uh there's already like a bit of a natural inclination to not want to engage in like fraud 414 00:31:30,773 --> 00:31:36,993 and all this stuff because if you have a social like media account backing the profile that's 415 00:31:36,993 --> 00:31:41,373 selling something you want to keep that reputation because it takes time to like build an audience to 416 00:31:41,373 --> 00:31:46,093 build get your followers get people who you engage with regularly and if you are like actively like 417 00:31:46,093 --> 00:31:49,434 using that account to like scam people or do stuff then obviously people aren't going to want to 418 00:31:49,434 --> 00:31:54,993 follow you or engage with you anymore so there is a natural uh like self-correcting mechanism that 419 00:31:54,993 --> 00:31:58,793 at least that i believe in it's a question whether or not that actually works at scale 420 00:31:58,793 --> 00:32:03,934 um and that's why uh with milk market in particular we're taking a little bit of a 421 00:32:03,934 --> 00:32:09,993 a slower more direct approach with like who we allow on the uh to sell on the on the marketplace 422 00:32:09,993 --> 00:32:16,093 because we go directly to the farms we talk with them we like record videos with them we like take 423 00:32:16,093 --> 00:32:19,773 tour the farm we see their practices we like make sure that everything like stands for what we want 424 00:32:19,773 --> 00:32:25,313 it to be what we want it to stand for and from there we then like uh have them onboarded and 425 00:32:25,313 --> 00:32:31,154 like help work with them to like get all that stuff done um but uh yeah i think uh we have to 426 00:32:31,154 --> 00:32:37,214 we have to allow ourselves and allow others to kind of have the responsibility and the optionality 427 00:32:37,214 --> 00:32:43,233 to like engage and like not just like off offload that to some uh third-party remediation system 428 00:32:43,233 --> 00:32:47,353 that may or may not even resolve the query properly. 429 00:32:47,513 --> 00:32:50,533 Because oftentimes the buyer, or rather the seller, 430 00:32:50,613 --> 00:32:52,553 is the one who gets screwed actually most of the time 431 00:32:52,553 --> 00:32:57,373 in a lot of the whole dispute resolution systems. 432 00:32:57,853 --> 00:33:00,873 So it's mainly like buyer protection where that comes in. 433 00:33:01,753 --> 00:33:02,373 But yeah, yeah. 434 00:33:03,194 --> 00:33:04,353 Cool. Great. 435 00:33:04,593 --> 00:33:06,593 Does Shopster have a global footprint? 436 00:33:07,273 --> 00:33:08,753 And I asked specifically, 437 00:33:09,793 --> 00:33:12,214 so it's really interesting what you're doing, 438 00:33:12,214 --> 00:33:20,593 trying to find specific markets or kind of cohesive, coherent, independent social networks 439 00:33:20,593 --> 00:33:24,973 that can be tapped into that have some sort of problem, like the raw milk market that 440 00:33:24,973 --> 00:33:31,833 Noster as a storefront can solve some problem that that has. And of course, worldwide, you have 441 00:33:31,833 --> 00:33:37,214 surges in adoption and things like BitChat when you have real practical problems with freedom of 442 00:33:37,214 --> 00:33:41,934 speech arise in certain regimes and i'm just wondering is there a global footprint footprint 443 00:33:41,934 --> 00:33:48,333 for shopster or do you see that as kind of the next frontier are there global indigenous markets 444 00:33:48,333 --> 00:33:53,313 that for whatever reason don't function well that could be made to function yeah that's definitely 445 00:33:53,313 --> 00:33:59,894 uh i guess uh at least at the the the current moment in time it's like uh what we want the 446 00:33:59,894 --> 00:34:05,473 next frontier to be uh because there is uh there are people who like sell uh uh across the world 447 00:34:05,473 --> 00:34:10,794 that have sold across like different areas like in Africa, Europe, South America, the U.S. 448 00:34:10,934 --> 00:34:13,613 It's largely the U.S. U.S.-based activity. 449 00:34:14,493 --> 00:34:20,073 But there are, and you mentioned there like the local like niche community markets. 450 00:34:20,434 --> 00:34:23,573 That's basically what we're trying to like function as. 451 00:34:23,613 --> 00:34:28,434 We're trying to function as like a platform for local economies to be able to like bootstrap themselves online 452 00:34:28,434 --> 00:34:31,613 and be able to like start like creating their own circular economy locally. 453 00:34:31,613 --> 00:34:37,093 um and uh yeah definitely um when i was like looking into even like the still correlated with 454 00:34:37,093 --> 00:34:42,814 raw milk like africa has by far the largest like informal raw milk economy it's a hundred billion 455 00:34:42,814 --> 00:34:48,233 dollar industry like like it's like it's like the majority of like the milk market in the entire 456 00:34:48,233 --> 00:34:55,154 world which is crazy so there's yeah yeah exactly and africa just is like even in terms of just like 457 00:34:55,154 --> 00:35:00,834 normal bitcoin adoption and like bitcoin like innovation africa is like the the the best place 458 00:35:00,834 --> 00:35:04,914 to be doing all this stuff because there's so much like fervor and like actual need for a lot 459 00:35:04,914 --> 00:35:08,233 of this uh because that's like one of the problems that it comes with like trying to 460 00:35:08,233 --> 00:35:14,414 wanting spread adoption within like developed nations is that we still see it a lot as uh a 461 00:35:14,414 --> 00:35:19,814 like as a store the gold store value and we we don't the digital gold store value and we're not 462 00:35:19,814 --> 00:35:25,294 like focused on like using it as a commercial activity or like engaging with it uh that directly 463 00:35:25,294 --> 00:35:30,434 um which is fine because number go up is a very useful and valuable thing for people to like 464 00:35:30,434 --> 00:35:35,454 actually stick with using Bitcoin or holding it at least. But when it comes to actually like 465 00:35:35,454 --> 00:35:41,053 spreading the values and engaging with it, we have to tap into other markets that aren't 466 00:35:41,053 --> 00:35:45,133 necessarily the biggest places to be. They're not going to move the needle in terms of price, 467 00:35:45,133 --> 00:35:49,854 but that's where a lot of the actual real opportunity to solve real people's problems 468 00:35:49,854 --> 00:35:53,733 are. And that's something that I think I learned also coming from like the network school and stuff. 469 00:35:53,733 --> 00:35:58,053 There's just a lot of global opportunity to like engage in a lot of things. And like, 470 00:35:58,053 --> 00:36:02,154 there's just like there's a lot of businesses that i'm aware of even some of my friends 471 00:36:02,154 --> 00:36:08,914 that i know have founded businesses that are just like spinoffs of existing big companies like carta 472 00:36:08,914 --> 00:36:15,894 like which is a um uh basically like a startup uh cap table management platform i have a friend 473 00:36:15,894 --> 00:36:19,733 who founded like a similar thing but just for india and is doing very well and then i have other 474 00:36:19,733 --> 00:36:23,613 friends who have like founded like other marketplaces or payment solutions in south america 475 00:36:23,613 --> 00:36:27,854 and like they're doing very well so it's just like you have to adopt and adapt your strategies 476 00:36:27,854 --> 00:36:29,273 to like the specific markets you can. 477 00:36:29,334 --> 00:36:31,613 And if you can get a leg up in one of those markets, 478 00:36:31,613 --> 00:36:33,533 which it can be difficult due to like corruption 479 00:36:33,533 --> 00:36:34,733 and other things that undeveloped, 480 00:36:34,733 --> 00:36:37,093 like democratic systems and all these things, 481 00:36:37,193 --> 00:36:37,834 legal systems. 482 00:36:38,673 --> 00:36:40,593 If you can do that, though, 483 00:36:40,733 --> 00:36:41,934 you have a really good opportunity 484 00:36:41,934 --> 00:36:43,233 to like really make a big difference. 485 00:36:43,314 --> 00:36:44,673 I might not necessarily do the next Facebook, 486 00:36:44,954 --> 00:36:46,374 but you don't really have to be the next Facebook 487 00:36:46,374 --> 00:36:47,533 in order to actually change the world. 488 00:36:48,874 --> 00:36:51,834 Does a Nostra-based market solve some endemic problem 489 00:36:51,834 --> 00:36:54,633 in emerging markets in Africa, 490 00:36:54,974 --> 00:36:57,153 in other countries that are still developing 491 00:36:57,153 --> 00:36:59,593 that maybe it's not solving in the United States? 492 00:36:59,713 --> 00:37:00,273 I don't know. 493 00:37:00,414 --> 00:37:02,173 Is that there's some specific use case, 494 00:37:02,273 --> 00:37:03,153 like BitChad, of course, 495 00:37:03,213 --> 00:37:05,053 within a regime that suppresses free speech, 496 00:37:05,233 --> 00:37:06,474 that there's obvious utility there. 497 00:37:06,794 --> 00:37:08,033 Is it the same sort of thing 498 00:37:08,033 --> 00:37:10,693 with a Noster-based storefront? 499 00:37:11,474 --> 00:37:13,454 It might not necessarily be as clear cut 500 00:37:13,454 --> 00:37:15,013 with regards to BitChad or something, 501 00:37:15,093 --> 00:37:16,013 because free speech is definitely, 502 00:37:16,053 --> 00:37:17,253 it's just obvious and blanket. 503 00:37:17,753 --> 00:37:19,033 Since I don't have so much exposure 504 00:37:19,033 --> 00:37:21,193 to those regions necessarily, 505 00:37:21,733 --> 00:37:23,653 I don't have the greatest overview. 506 00:37:23,653 --> 00:37:26,354 But I do know that there is, 507 00:37:26,354 --> 00:37:32,013 like obviously commercial restriction like inter inter country like with the um like with 508 00:37:32,013 --> 00:37:36,354 with like the frank uh that that's like uh that proliferates around and it's used in africa 509 00:37:36,354 --> 00:37:39,553 they're not allowed to like engage in that commercial activity like countries aren't 510 00:37:39,553 --> 00:37:42,773 allowed to engage in commercial activity with each other like they're restricted in like their usage 511 00:37:42,773 --> 00:37:46,894 of their own currency because france is basically still like a colonial power and stuff right 512 00:37:46,894 --> 00:37:54,874 yeah that's incredible yeah so there's a lot of uh there is like more to be uh i guess explored 513 00:37:54,874 --> 00:37:59,954 within that area of like allowing uh africans to be able to like actually engage in commerce with 514 00:37:59,954 --> 00:38:05,934 each other because there's just historically it's just been so uh like abused and there's so much 515 00:38:05,934 --> 00:38:10,213 stuff that has gone around that is just has restricted their growth and their ability to 516 00:38:10,213 --> 00:38:15,553 like actually develop properly and so i'm sure there's just like it's just a matter of like 517 00:38:15,553 --> 00:38:19,713 actually going uh like head first and like actually being there on the ground like actually 518 00:38:19,713 --> 00:38:24,334 get a real real feel for it but i can't like super speak but i'm yeah it has to be so many 519 00:38:24,334 --> 00:38:28,553 opportunities there. It's like a sociological question, how these new technologies interface 520 00:38:28,553 --> 00:38:32,753 with different societies. So it's great that you're putting the technology forward, you're 521 00:38:32,753 --> 00:38:37,354 finding ways to apply it, but it is going to take feet on the ground in these different places with 522 00:38:37,354 --> 00:38:41,834 deep knowledge of the tradition, the culture, the problems. And that's one of the exciting parts 523 00:38:41,834 --> 00:38:47,733 about Bitcoin and these kind of protocols that are decentralized and global is you are going to 524 00:38:47,733 --> 00:38:52,213 see different solutions emerge in different jurisdictions, just based on the legal structures, 525 00:38:52,213 --> 00:38:58,193 the traditions the problem and so that will be um i mean do you have any you kind of said you don't 526 00:38:58,193 --> 00:39:02,294 i guess maybe i want to ask you that i was gonna ask if you have any predictions as to how um 527 00:39:02,294 --> 00:39:07,213 nostril based global markets will proliferate is it going to be like jurisdiction based i mean guys 528 00:39:07,213 --> 00:39:11,314 that's kind of what you said right it's going to be local yeah that's definitely that's definitely 529 00:39:11,314 --> 00:39:16,553 how i think like the ideal uh or not the ideal but rather like how it's naturally going to progress 530 00:39:16,553 --> 00:39:19,994 is people are going to be finding local pockets 531 00:39:19,994 --> 00:39:22,053 where it really makes a big difference 532 00:39:22,053 --> 00:39:33,807 and then start growing out from there Like it be like the and that like one of the things that the um one of the things that I think is like the the true like global reach true globalization is pure localization 533 00:39:33,807 --> 00:39:39,027 It's like, you want to have maximal, maximal amounts of like local pockets that are supported 534 00:39:39,027 --> 00:39:40,987 by infrastructure, like common infrastructure. 535 00:39:41,387 --> 00:39:43,987 And that's like the peak, that's the peak form of globalization. 536 00:39:43,987 --> 00:39:47,687 Cause you don't want everyone and everything to be relying on a single system that connects 537 00:39:47,687 --> 00:39:48,087 everything. 538 00:39:48,087 --> 00:39:51,727 And then as soon as one part of that system falls, like we saw in COVID, everything just 539 00:39:51,727 --> 00:39:52,347 goes to shit. 540 00:39:52,347 --> 00:40:00,067 And we want to have like sustainable, small pockets of economic freedom where people can grow and like start growing out from there. 541 00:40:00,207 --> 00:40:08,067 So that's, yeah, it's definitely how I believe like the whole evolution of Noster marketplaces and like Noster technologies and applications will build out. 542 00:40:08,127 --> 00:40:20,707 Because like BitChat, for example, even I think Akali, one of the developers who works on it with Jack, he saw that there's like a million monthly active users for BitChat recently, at least on the Android version, which is like crazy. 543 00:40:20,707 --> 00:40:33,987 So that means a million people are using Nasser. We just don't see it on the live social feed. But a large amount of that comes from like Uganda and I believe it was also Cuba and like where they've been having all the protests. 544 00:40:34,207 --> 00:40:42,027 So there's a lot of like activity that's coming from these countries that like we don't necessarily are we aren't necessarily exposed to. 545 00:40:42,067 --> 00:40:47,027 But there's just like there's actually a massive amount of demand. So it's going to be localized pockets that are slowly, slowly growing out. 546 00:40:47,027 --> 00:40:53,287 yeah that's beautiful globalization but localized kind of some melding between the two because when 547 00:40:53,287 --> 00:40:57,687 you said earlier that like commerce is this universal language between cultures that if we 548 00:40:57,687 --> 00:41:02,527 can trade value in a way that's neutral we can speak to people that we can't otherwise speak to 549 00:41:02,527 --> 00:41:07,047 and kind of maybe that's pacifying maybe that conduces to peace and getting along and whatnot 550 00:41:07,047 --> 00:41:12,187 but that globalizing can also be like a leveling right when there's an interchange just based on 551 00:41:12,187 --> 00:41:16,887 commerce, then we're selling Diet Pepsi to indigenous tribes, right? And we're like, 552 00:41:17,147 --> 00:41:22,347 we're kind of building, bringing the world together, but under the same corporate homogenization, 553 00:41:22,627 --> 00:41:28,267 de-territorializing in the same direction. Whereas I love this image of localized markets, 554 00:41:28,267 --> 00:41:34,287 but in some way being on a global platform or protocol. And so if you can affect that, 555 00:41:34,287 --> 00:41:38,707 not you, but if this type of Nostra-based marketplaces can affect that, that's going to be 556 00:41:38,707 --> 00:41:43,987 this another trend in what globalization really means and can mean a sort of good way maybe 557 00:41:43,987 --> 00:41:48,267 yeah definitely definitely and that's like the that's the that's the big goal because like 558 00:41:48,267 --> 00:41:52,507 with when it comes to like like uh just specifically with like the milk market and all that stuff 559 00:41:52,507 --> 00:41:58,067 what we're trying to do is support like local farming economies and local food food economies 560 00:41:58,067 --> 00:42:03,087 we don't want to have just like it we kind of defeats the purpose if like everything we're 561 00:42:03,087 --> 00:42:08,027 facilitating is just like okay cross-country like shipping and all this stuff like like even like 562 00:42:08,027 --> 00:42:11,827 it's funny because a lot of the stuff like we take for granted that is like really useful and 563 00:42:11,827 --> 00:42:16,267 very powerful like shipping infrastructure storage infrastructure all this stuff actually 564 00:42:16,267 --> 00:42:21,047 removes a lot of like the the direct cultural ties and like community that we actually develop 565 00:42:21,047 --> 00:42:27,547 because it removes uh similar hats like the dispute resolution systems on platforms it removes a lot 566 00:42:27,547 --> 00:42:31,927 of the responsibility from our side to like actually you know what we used to do is just 567 00:42:31,927 --> 00:42:35,867 like actually go to the farm or shake their hand like get to know them be involved in the directly 568 00:42:35,867 --> 00:42:39,287 with like the people we're interacting with and we're buying with so we have to kind of we're 569 00:42:39,287 --> 00:42:43,827 trying to bring back that sense of community development and localization because like 570 00:42:43,827 --> 00:42:50,287 fundamentally all culture and all society is based on small societies like the atomic family unit and 571 00:42:50,287 --> 00:42:55,267 then growing out from there like you want to have these tight communities and a sense of sense of 572 00:42:55,267 --> 00:43:00,747 culture sense of sense of love sense of beauty within human beings that where you're not just 573 00:43:00,747 --> 00:43:04,867 like yeah that's some other guy over there on the other side of the planet and i have no association 574 00:43:04,867 --> 00:43:08,067 with them. So I'll just send a missile over there because I don't really care. Because it's just like 575 00:43:08,067 --> 00:43:13,947 you lose the connection of what actually makes us human. Yeah. No, I love that point you make, 576 00:43:14,027 --> 00:43:19,767 that global shipping and physical commerce structures have that effect. I mean, it's obvious 577 00:43:19,767 --> 00:43:24,187 when you think about it, but it's not something we focus on, that that physical interconnection can 578 00:43:24,187 --> 00:43:29,987 have these really deleterious effects that maybe digital connection won't have when it can't 579 00:43:29,987 --> 00:43:33,667 enable these market solutions. I had one more question before, if Lucas, you had some more. 580 00:43:33,667 --> 00:43:38,007 You just dropped earlier kind of innocuously that you're not on social media. 581 00:43:38,567 --> 00:43:39,387 And so I'm curious. 582 00:43:39,667 --> 00:43:42,407 I mean, it's evidently, I'd assume a conscious decision. 583 00:43:42,907 --> 00:43:46,427 Was there some moment of rupture that you're like, no more social media? 584 00:43:46,627 --> 00:43:48,447 And then after that, things have changed? 585 00:43:48,447 --> 00:43:49,927 Or what motivated that? 586 00:43:50,027 --> 00:43:54,787 And do you think that that has changed the way that you look at things and looking at 587 00:43:54,787 --> 00:43:58,187 Noster not as a social media interface, but as something bigger? 588 00:43:59,307 --> 00:43:59,827 Oh, yeah, definitely. 589 00:43:59,827 --> 00:44:03,507 I think the, um, there was already, there was already a period of time when I was like in, 590 00:44:03,507 --> 00:44:09,047 uh, my end of high school, like early years of college where I was getting a little bit 591 00:44:09,047 --> 00:44:12,747 wary of like interacting with, like, especially like on Instagram and certain things. 592 00:44:12,747 --> 00:44:16,627 Like my biggest thing that I used was Twitter just because like, I follow, I liked the reading 593 00:44:16,627 --> 00:44:20,327 and like thinking of like following thought people and like, uh, all the think boys and 594 00:44:20,327 --> 00:44:21,187 everything like that online. 595 00:44:21,307 --> 00:44:23,207 I'm just getting a sense of all that. 596 00:44:23,467 --> 00:44:27,407 But, um, I was still using Instagram, like Snapchat, TikTok, all this stuff, but TikTok 597 00:44:27,407 --> 00:44:32,647 was the big catalyst for me because there was a period in time during covid where like my girlfriend 598 00:44:32,647 --> 00:44:38,027 and i all we would do uh is just like we'd be laying in bed and then we'd just be watching 599 00:44:38,027 --> 00:44:43,667 tiktok for hours and then like our dates would be us like saying hell look at this tiktok and then 600 00:44:43,667 --> 00:44:47,587 like we come back and then it's just like that that was our engagement and that was and that like 601 00:44:47,587 --> 00:44:52,427 obviously that correlates with that period of time where we didn't really like have good 602 00:44:52,427 --> 00:44:55,707 communication skills or like we're arguing and like doing all this stuff so it's like 603 00:44:55,707 --> 00:45:01,827 there was a very obvious uh trend there where like okay i'm not like actually being like 604 00:45:01,827 --> 00:45:05,407 interactive with anyone like doing anything properly i'm not trying to actually develop 605 00:45:05,407 --> 00:45:10,587 in the relationships that i already have so by getting rid of it tiktok was the first thing i 606 00:45:10,587 --> 00:45:15,387 didn't actually weirdly i didn't like consciously think that at the time the big thing that actually 607 00:45:15,387 --> 00:45:19,727 got me was that uh that's when it came out that like tiktok was like controlled by the ccp and 608 00:45:19,727 --> 00:45:22,747 all this stuff and like they were like it's logging our like data and i was like since i 609 00:45:22,747 --> 00:45:26,347 was getting into bitcoin i was like getting big into privacy and stuff and i wanted to feel cool 610 00:45:26,347 --> 00:45:31,987 like i don't want to be tracked or any of this stuff um but uh so like getting rid of the those 611 00:45:31,987 --> 00:45:36,907 platforms uh i slowly or gradually got rid of it the hardest things to get rid of were basically 612 00:45:36,907 --> 00:45:40,487 where i would like text my friends more than anything and i just had to like force people to 613 00:45:40,487 --> 00:45:44,307 i was like i'm not going to talk to you ever again unless you like message me on signal or you message 614 00:45:44,307 --> 00:45:49,167 me on on something like that like you have to communicate with me on this way um so that had 615 00:45:49,167 --> 00:45:53,967 have to be like a bit of a forcing function there and um yeah that's that's one of the reasons why 616 00:45:53,967 --> 00:46:01,987 with Noster because I still like I used it a lot more uh back then when I was first uh when I first 617 00:46:01,987 --> 00:46:05,987 discovered it mainly because I was interested and like wanted to play around with it um but it's 618 00:46:05,987 --> 00:46:09,527 still fundamentally like a social media platform and I think I remember seeing someone on Noster 619 00:46:09,527 --> 00:46:17,787 uh post a note that was like um uh us are like us trying to we're basically like if you're trying 620 00:46:17,787 --> 00:46:21,427 to make Nostra a successful social media platform, you're actually trying to replace 621 00:46:21,427 --> 00:46:28,567 the addiction mechanism from other social medias into Nostra, which isn't necessarily what the 622 00:46:28,567 --> 00:46:33,707 stated goal of most of the applications are. But at a fundamental level, because of the nature of 623 00:46:33,707 --> 00:46:39,147 social media, that's what you're trying to do. And thankfully, we have people who are building 624 00:46:39,147 --> 00:46:43,067 in this that are trying to do it in a healthy way, at least introduce it as a more direct 625 00:46:43,067 --> 00:46:49,427 community um communication platform rather than just like a doom scrolling algorithmic feed thing 626 00:46:49,427 --> 00:46:58,607 um but you need to be able to have uh yeah conscious uh uh conscious uh engagement with 627 00:46:58,607 --> 00:47:06,527 these tools and realize that uh they do affect uh our daily life and having like because one one app 628 00:47:06,527 --> 00:47:10,647 that's very useful to me because especially with like the business because i had the i've been 629 00:47:10,647 --> 00:47:15,527 posting like content uh my girlfriend i've been posting content for uh and my girlfriend's also 630 00:47:15,527 --> 00:47:20,867 my business partner in this so uh just to clarify because she's also involved but we post content 631 00:47:20,867 --> 00:47:26,787 for milk market on instagram tiktok youtube all these things and uh i was i very quickly found 632 00:47:26,787 --> 00:47:31,267 myself falling into the hole of like browsing instagram business podcasts and all this stuff 633 00:47:31,267 --> 00:47:36,527 and now different content that i'm interested in but i had to like figure out a way to like kind of 634 00:47:36,527 --> 00:47:38,927 fine-tune my time for that. 635 00:47:39,167 --> 00:47:40,527 And I downloaded this app called Freedom, 636 00:47:41,087 --> 00:47:42,867 which allows you to time block and 637 00:47:42,867 --> 00:47:45,047 restrict when specific apps 638 00:47:45,047 --> 00:47:46,967 can be opened on your phone. So that's 639 00:47:46,967 --> 00:47:49,127 very, very helpful. And now, actually, 640 00:47:49,167 --> 00:47:51,147 I just don't even engage with it much 641 00:47:51,147 --> 00:47:52,567 anymore. It's just when I need to post. 642 00:47:52,927 --> 00:47:54,187 But yeah, there's... 643 00:47:54,187 --> 00:47:56,847 The natural evolution, I think, of most things 644 00:47:56,847 --> 00:47:58,927 has to come to... The reason 645 00:47:58,927 --> 00:48:00,907 we even engage with this is because we want a sense of community. 646 00:48:01,307 --> 00:48:02,887 And I feel like one of the best ways of actually 647 00:48:02,887 --> 00:48:04,427 creating that sense of community is through 648 00:48:04,427 --> 00:48:06,567 direct engagement economically. 649 00:48:07,047 --> 00:48:09,847 And that's why the focus that I see Nostra is developing 650 00:48:09,847 --> 00:48:14,767 is more of a facilitator of spreading Bitcoin adoption 651 00:48:14,767 --> 00:48:17,727 and monetary adoption of the tools that we have. 652 00:48:18,807 --> 00:48:21,267 And that's why I originally came in Fort For 653 00:48:21,267 --> 00:48:23,867 because I wanted to be able to contribute to Bitcoin 654 00:48:23,867 --> 00:48:27,547 and the spread of it in a way that was more accessible 655 00:48:27,547 --> 00:48:30,607 and more reachable than just improving Bitcoin. 656 00:48:30,727 --> 00:48:33,967 Because obviously, who am I to say that I can actually just change it 657 00:48:33,967 --> 00:48:36,187 and make it even better as a developer 658 00:48:36,187 --> 00:48:37,967 rather than just like fixing bugs or all that stuff. 659 00:48:38,027 --> 00:48:39,087 Like I want to like spread it 660 00:48:39,087 --> 00:48:40,847 and get more people educated about it 661 00:48:40,847 --> 00:48:42,167 and expose them to it. 662 00:48:42,187 --> 00:48:43,867 So that's like the main goal. 663 00:48:45,087 --> 00:48:48,287 This is such an interesting thing. 664 00:48:48,287 --> 00:48:50,667 We're after this tomorrow, 665 00:48:50,807 --> 00:48:52,987 we're going to review a paper by Heidegger 666 00:48:52,987 --> 00:48:56,727 on tools and technique or technical. 667 00:48:57,107 --> 00:48:58,067 The question concerning technology. 668 00:48:58,067 --> 00:49:00,307 The question, yeah, the question concerning technology. 669 00:49:00,307 --> 00:49:10,567 and it does bring up this great question which is that if you want to frame NOSTER as oh this is 670 00:49:10,567 --> 00:49:19,687 a better Instagram or a better X or a better Facebook then I don't think that it ultimately 671 00:49:19,687 --> 00:49:28,067 is successful because I think what it reveals is that when you do move to the tool that is NOSTER 672 00:49:28,067 --> 00:49:35,227 and use that technology, then what you quickly come to realize is that the better Instagram is 673 00:49:35,227 --> 00:49:44,347 no Instagram and the better Facebook is no Facebook. And the goal, if the goal is to be 674 00:49:44,347 --> 00:49:52,707 a influencer with a large following, then the proper ground for that, the fertile ground for 675 00:49:52,707 --> 00:49:59,847 that is that which you stand upon, not the cyber community. We talk about having like, I think this 676 00:49:59,847 --> 00:50:04,787 is the word we were searching for before, which is that we have connection without community 677 00:50:04,787 --> 00:50:12,447 on these social media platforms. And it's not connection that we ultimately seem to desire 678 00:50:12,447 --> 00:50:18,007 because we're hyper-connected, yet we don't feel like we have a sense of community. You know, men 679 00:50:18,007 --> 00:50:26,647 don't have friends and you don't have this engagement with people that is fruitful, I 680 00:50:26,647 --> 00:50:28,667 guess, on these platforms. 681 00:50:28,667 --> 00:50:35,507 And I just hope people, when they listen to this, they're able to really draw out something 682 00:50:35,507 --> 00:50:41,767 that I think you said that it's just so brilliant, which is that, you know, that's not the goal 683 00:50:41,767 --> 00:50:42,047 here. 684 00:50:42,047 --> 00:50:53,687 The goal is that we are able to have more of this community, that if you want to see change in the world, that first you need to be that change. 685 00:50:53,867 --> 00:51:01,747 And then second, the best place to spread that change is to the person that you're sitting next to or that you're talking to face to face. 686 00:51:01,747 --> 00:51:10,047 um grant yesterday showed me that uh there's a a social media influencer from from his hometown 687 00:51:10,047 --> 00:51:20,367 who basically trolls people um by uh presenting videos about farming that are entirely inaccurate 688 00:51:20,367 --> 00:51:28,667 but because 99 of people their relationship with their food source is going to an antiseptic 689 00:51:28,667 --> 00:51:36,327 supermarket and buying something that on average, I found on average that the average food product 690 00:51:36,327 --> 00:51:43,467 travels 1600 miles to get to the end user in the United States. And so you have this entirely 691 00:51:43,467 --> 00:51:50,007 disconnected feeling with your food and with the producer of that food. You don't have the sense 692 00:51:50,007 --> 00:51:58,547 of community. And what you're doing is you are rebuilding that from the ground up, the individual 693 00:51:58,547 --> 00:52:06,167 relationship with the producer and encouraging people to get to know them in order to interact 694 00:52:06,167 --> 00:52:12,187 with them and to do commerce with them. So I just think that's such a beautiful, it just, 695 00:52:12,187 --> 00:52:17,387 it's one of those things that it just feels right. Like, yes, I love the convenience of 696 00:52:17,387 --> 00:52:22,707 DoorDash and I love the convenience of Amazon and things like that, but 697 00:52:22,707 --> 00:52:31,907 nothing is fulfilling through that other than to fulfill this immediate desire of gratification 698 00:52:31,907 --> 00:52:35,087 that is fleeting and disappears so quickly. 699 00:52:36,207 --> 00:52:43,647 So yeah, it's just, it's very encouraging, I guess, to see that and to know that you're 700 00:52:43,647 --> 00:52:47,047 having that experience and that your customers are having that experience. 701 00:52:47,047 --> 00:52:56,167 um yeah so you're doing a um you're doing a fundraiser right now for milk market and um 702 00:52:56,167 --> 00:53:02,267 the goal with that is to be able to present a better product 703 00:53:02,267 --> 00:53:13,627 both drive help drive this adoption how is that fundraiser been going and um where 704 00:53:13,627 --> 00:53:17,307 I guess where do you expect to see impact with that 705 00:53:17,307 --> 00:53:19,687 when you're moving forward there? 706 00:53:21,887 --> 00:53:25,267 Yeah, so the fundraising has been going well so far. 707 00:53:25,727 --> 00:53:28,507 We're at half our goal, so we're trying to raise $124,000. 708 00:53:29,227 --> 00:53:32,167 So we've already hit half our goal, which has been great. 709 00:53:33,167 --> 00:53:36,167 And the nice thing about it is that it's not just like a normal 710 00:53:36,167 --> 00:53:37,387 Kickstarter type thing. 711 00:53:37,387 --> 00:53:40,627 So you actually get people who invest get ownership in the company, 712 00:53:40,627 --> 00:53:50,047 So they're also like along for the ride with for being being a part of it and being within within the whole movement of what we're trying to accomplish. 713 00:53:50,347 --> 00:53:57,807 And with it, basically what we're trying to do, because like to your point of like developing the sense of community and also the kind of the importance behind everything. 714 00:53:57,807 --> 00:54:02,967 one thing that i also feel like is one reason why a lot of people also don't resonate necessarily 715 00:54:02,967 --> 00:54:08,647 with this this mission of like like localizing the food sources like getting more of a relationship 716 00:54:08,647 --> 00:54:16,627 with it is because a lot of the messaging and um uh discussion around it is actually comes at a at a 717 00:54:16,627 --> 00:54:21,267 level that's very like it weighs on you because it's like oh my this is very important and like 718 00:54:21,267 --> 00:54:24,627 there's a lot of like there's a sense of responsibility there and a lot of times i 719 00:54:24,627 --> 00:54:28,247 could just be like a lot for some people for people to take in and try to like actually act 720 00:54:28,247 --> 00:54:31,787 out on themselves because if you're weighed down you're not going to be able to move so you want 721 00:54:31,787 --> 00:54:37,407 to be able to um like while he's one of the things that i think um and i've drawn from a lot of like 722 00:54:37,407 --> 00:54:41,207 other consumer products like liquid death for example the founder of that when he was like 723 00:54:41,207 --> 00:54:46,987 marketing water it's like people like people who are engaged like healthy food the healthy food 724 00:54:46,987 --> 00:54:53,087 aisle and all these things they're marketing as with like the the idyllic pasture and like the 725 00:54:53,087 --> 00:54:57,887 there's no like and like the perfect pristine conditions about everything and there's no like 726 00:54:57,887 --> 00:55:02,927 real sense of like uh of fun or like engagement with that with like a community or anything there's 727 00:55:02,927 --> 00:55:07,947 no sense of community around a specific brand or any of that but like junk food companies the way 728 00:55:07,947 --> 00:55:13,027 they market is like they create a community they have like this these instances of like of fun and 729 00:55:13,027 --> 00:55:17,527 activity around it like they have recognizable characters and all these people that you can or 730 00:55:17,527 --> 00:55:22,167 all these things you can engage with and that's why he like what he was uh when he was drawing 731 00:55:22,167 --> 00:55:26,127 from it is basically like you want to we want to we're a health food company because it's just it's 732 00:55:26,127 --> 00:55:30,887 water it's healthy and it's also a sustainability company because they don't use plastic but we're 733 00:55:30,887 --> 00:55:36,347 but we want to market like a like a like a junk food company we want to be able to like create 734 00:55:36,347 --> 00:55:42,327 that presence and that that established brand recognition throughout people and uh and along 735 00:55:42,327 --> 00:55:47,487 the way that's going to cause a divide um because like great art divides like that's just a a 736 00:55:47,487 --> 00:55:49,147 a tendency of great art. 737 00:55:49,707 --> 00:55:51,987 And part of what we're trying to do 738 00:55:51,987 --> 00:55:53,987 is actually introduce a bit more of like that, 739 00:55:54,167 --> 00:55:55,347 that entertainment and the fun. 740 00:55:55,407 --> 00:55:56,867 Because if you look at our Instagram feed 741 00:55:56,867 --> 00:55:58,307 or like our socials, 742 00:55:58,387 --> 00:55:59,527 we try to do a lot of that stuff. 743 00:55:59,547 --> 00:56:00,507 And we're at farmer's markets. 744 00:56:00,507 --> 00:56:02,747 We pop up there and we're trying to engage 745 00:56:02,747 --> 00:56:04,127 with like the people who are like coming by, 746 00:56:04,207 --> 00:56:05,067 giving them free coffee, 747 00:56:05,447 --> 00:56:07,647 just like kind of creating a bit more sense 748 00:56:07,647 --> 00:56:09,687 of like engagement, direct engagement with people. 749 00:56:10,047 --> 00:56:11,427 And we're trying to like try new things 750 00:56:11,427 --> 00:56:14,467 to experiment with ways of like getting people comfortable 751 00:56:14,467 --> 00:56:16,227 also with like raw milk, for example. 752 00:56:16,287 --> 00:56:16,947 Because like one of the things 753 00:56:16,947 --> 00:56:21,887 we're going to be doing with um with like the money that we get to raise is actually creating 754 00:56:21,887 --> 00:56:26,887 like a line of like uh i guess like sort of like skincare products but like basically like soaps 755 00:56:26,887 --> 00:56:30,687 and creams and stuff like for people to like actually apply to their skin because like through 756 00:56:30,687 --> 00:56:35,907 the processing of like creating that that it gets rid of any potential potentially harmful things 757 00:56:35,907 --> 00:56:39,927 that could come from raw milk and you're also putting on your skin not consuming it so it 758 00:56:39,927 --> 00:56:43,067 alleviates a lot of like the regulatory pressure that comes from that and people can get more 759 00:56:43,067 --> 00:56:46,607 comfortable and interested in it and they get to see behind like oh we're actually sourcing direct 760 00:56:46,607 --> 00:56:51,007 we're doing things directly with farmers like being able to raise gives us the ability to 761 00:56:51,007 --> 00:56:57,387 yeah broaden our footprint be able to access more of our community and tap into yeah like the the 762 00:56:57,387 --> 00:57:02,867 need and sense of of being that people are like longing for and like doing it in a way that 763 00:57:02,867 --> 00:57:07,667 actually helps promote the it creates like a virtuous cycle where it promotes sustainability 764 00:57:07,667 --> 00:57:11,667 of the soil sustainability of the farmer and then that promotes sustainability of the community 765 00:57:11,667 --> 00:57:16,007 and just like start developing a bigger and bigger flywheel with that so that's like the 766 00:57:16,007 --> 00:57:21,447 fundamentally what we're trying to trying to accomplish local greater localization uh allowing 767 00:57:21,447 --> 00:57:27,227 for like our team to scale up a little bit to help help with with that and yeah just just getting the 768 00:57:27,227 --> 00:57:32,747 ball rolling and getting people uh exposed to it more and just like seeing uh having it uh yeah 769 00:57:32,747 --> 00:57:41,007 having people have more conscious thought about it yeah so you were you were next to one of the 770 00:57:41,007 --> 00:57:45,007 world's most renowned investors for a few months. 771 00:57:45,707 --> 00:57:49,487 Have you asked Balaji to kick in a couple mil, 772 00:57:50,067 --> 00:57:52,147 get you really rolling, get you a blimp? 773 00:57:53,007 --> 00:57:54,347 I haven't yet, but I am planning to. 774 00:57:54,427 --> 00:57:56,267 I'm going to be sending him a message later today. 775 00:57:56,427 --> 00:57:59,087 Just shoot the shot, see what he said he says. 776 00:57:59,867 --> 00:58:00,807 That's great, man. 777 00:58:01,107 --> 00:58:02,367 Yeah, that's fantastic. 778 00:58:02,367 --> 00:58:08,207 I have seen you and Zoe's content to promote Milk Market. 779 00:58:08,387 --> 00:58:09,487 And it's fun. 780 00:58:09,987 --> 00:58:10,647 It's engaging. 781 00:58:11,007 --> 00:58:18,187 it is exactly what you say where it's like the type of promotion that you would have around junk 782 00:58:18,187 --> 00:58:23,107 food or like when I think of liquid death, like the first thing I think is like anybody holding 783 00:58:23,107 --> 00:58:28,727 a liquid death can should be like vaping and wearing an affliction shirt. But they're not, 784 00:58:28,727 --> 00:58:35,327 you know, like these are people that they're like, hey, I just want to feel cool. But I also 785 00:58:35,327 --> 00:58:43,787 want to be healthy um and somehow we have i guess this is kind of the fiat mindset is that we've 786 00:58:43,787 --> 00:58:52,907 associated um unhealthy risk with being cool um you know that you think of like you know smoking 787 00:58:52,907 --> 00:58:59,547 cigarettes was you know viewed as so cool because it's um it's counterculture or whatever but 788 00:58:59,547 --> 00:59:01,187 it was counterculture. 789 00:59:02,387 --> 00:59:03,687 Like all of these 790 00:59:03,687 --> 00:59:04,847 counterculture things 791 00:59:04,847 --> 00:59:06,687 are not all of them, 792 00:59:06,847 --> 00:59:20,120 but a lot of counterculture begins as something dangerous and something risky jumping out of you know base jumping or skateboarding or whatever like these things are inherently they carry risk but we associate 793 00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:28,080 them with being cool because we as a people I think have become so docile and domesticated 794 00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:38,260 that anything that breaks us out of that is viewed as, is viewed as like groundbreaking or, or, or 795 00:59:38,260 --> 00:59:44,460 being a, being a trendsetter. So yeah, I, I, I certainly think you're on the right path. Like it, 796 00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:50,600 it's really cool to see, even just sitting here, hearing you talk about building culture and 797 00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:55,940 building community. Like my biggest regret right now is that you're not sitting next to us having 798 00:59:55,940 --> 01:00:01,600 this conversation with us is that we're doing this remotely because you feel the lack of connection 799 01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:06,700 like the you just or sorry you feel the lack of community we have the connection but we 800 01:00:06,700 --> 01:00:14,700 we're missing the community um so yeah i just find that um i find that something maybe to ponder i 801 01:00:14,700 --> 01:00:23,061 suppose um when you think about just interacting interacting with humanity um so i don't know um 802 01:00:23,061 --> 01:00:30,460 What else is there? What is what else is there to talk about? Like what's next for what's next for you? 803 01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:38,420 You know, you get I think this is going to be a successful fundraise and I think that you're going to be able to to really make some change. 804 01:00:38,420 --> 01:00:51,220 Are you just thinking about kind of concentrically expanding your circle there, starting in Washington and or Seattle and moving deeper into Washington and deeper across the Pacific Northwest? 805 01:00:51,220 --> 01:00:57,981 um what what really is your plan yeah yeah that's definitely that's part of it uh we're 806 01:00:57,981 --> 01:01:04,481 hopefully going to be like really locking in on getting as much uh locally locally sourced like 807 01:01:04,481 --> 01:01:10,340 products here in in in seattle and washington and then from there expand to the pmw because we do 808 01:01:10,340 --> 01:01:14,880 actually already have like a few uh like beef producers also that we've been talking to because 809 01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:19,240 i want to we're going to be expanding into different um product categories like beef and 810 01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:23,220 eggs and all these other things like we want to like kind of help localize the the entire 811 01:01:23,220 --> 01:01:28,481 entirety of like the food options that you can have especially healthy whole foods um and work 812 01:01:28,481 --> 01:01:32,780 along the coast especially since it's just like pretty convenient for us like it's able to like 813 01:01:32,780 --> 01:01:37,580 and there's a lot of uh largely the this the west coast has a lot of people who are like in 814 01:01:37,580 --> 01:01:42,021 like really into this type of thing so it's like allow us to expand from there and then 815 01:01:42,021 --> 01:01:46,960 work our way like yeah just across the country and trying to get involved a bit more meeting more of 816 01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:49,820 the producers, meeting more people across the country and just like getting involved, 817 01:01:50,021 --> 01:01:53,460 spreading that knowledge to people by making content and all that stuff. 818 01:01:53,740 --> 01:01:58,580 Yeah, it's just a matter of, yeah, taking it day by day and just making our way forward 819 01:01:58,580 --> 01:01:59,320 gradually. 820 01:01:59,740 --> 01:02:06,041 Because there are days where it's like, it can be, I guess, a bit like overwhelming, 821 01:02:06,220 --> 01:02:09,240 but like, it's like setting out the mission of like trying to like make markets more free 822 01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:09,740 and all this stuff. 823 01:02:09,740 --> 01:02:16,061 But whenever you just, yeah, just take it slowly and like make gradual progress, like 824 01:02:16,061 --> 01:02:18,620 to 1% improvements compound over time. 825 01:02:18,740 --> 01:02:20,160 So it's just a matter of, yeah, 826 01:02:20,521 --> 01:02:24,240 taking a step forward and working towards it. 827 01:02:24,900 --> 01:02:27,920 Yeah, citing James Clear and Atomic Habits 828 01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:31,140 will get you very far on this podcast. 829 01:02:31,620 --> 01:02:31,900 Definitely. 830 01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:37,160 Like the thing that really draws me 831 01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:40,001 about working in the space of Bitcoin 832 01:02:40,001 --> 01:02:44,920 is that there are healthy people 833 01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:48,340 who are fit that don't know about Bitcoin. 834 01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:52,280 But there are not very many people that know about Bitcoin 835 01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:53,580 that are not healthy and fit. 836 01:02:53,860 --> 01:02:55,960 And there are people that have community 837 01:02:55,960 --> 01:03:01,460 or that don't have community and don't know about Bitcoin. 838 01:03:01,541 --> 01:03:02,380 And there are people that do, 839 01:03:02,380 --> 01:03:07,501 but there are very few people that know about Bitcoin 840 01:03:07,501 --> 01:03:11,620 that don't consciously strive to create a community. 841 01:03:11,620 --> 01:03:17,561 And I guess I think I'm mostly concerned with health and fitness. 842 01:03:17,561 --> 01:03:29,521 I think that, you know, like what they say, the man who has everything wants nothing or the man who has his health wants everything, but the man who doesn't have his health only wants one thing. 843 01:03:30,300 --> 01:03:38,581 And I think that all of human experience seems to be kind of downstream from your health, from your physical health, your mental health. 844 01:03:38,581 --> 01:03:56,860 And what I see in the Bitcoin community is that that focus on on health and community and fitness, which is a community is a metric of fitness, you know, and being to be to be healthy. 845 01:03:56,860 --> 01:04:00,380 You need relationships and you need social engagement. 846 01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:04,081 I see all those things as kind of being downstream from Bitcoin. 847 01:04:04,081 --> 01:04:11,740 um and so getting in the right boat i guess is uh is kind of the encouragement to work in that space 848 01:04:11,740 --> 01:04:21,320 um i just think it's fantastic what you're doing um it really is it's a it's an honor to watch you 849 01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:29,760 work um because the way that you um you know you note this just like one percent you're not 850 01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:35,620 it's not a billion dollar company it's not a billion dollar um it's not even a billion dollar 851 01:04:35,620 --> 01:04:44,380 total addressable market where you're at right now um but you view that as that's not the reason 852 01:04:44,380 --> 01:04:52,581 why i would do this like um what is you know why do i need to be global and shallow when i can be 853 01:04:52,581 --> 01:04:59,660 local and deep exactly and i think that that's i think that that's moving us towards something 854 01:04:59,660 --> 01:05:06,880 better, I guess. So yeah, really pushing us, pushing the needle in a way that might not be 855 01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:12,740 seen on a global stage, but certainly can be seen on a local stage. And, you know, now that Farcaster 856 01:05:12,740 --> 01:05:18,581 has taken a dump, I think Balaji might be in something. I was thinking the exact same thing. 857 01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:26,140 You're like, man, I'm just going to dive right in here. You know, timing is perfect. So yeah. 858 01:05:26,140 --> 01:05:28,620 I don't know. 859 01:05:29,220 --> 01:05:30,501 Grant, what else you got for our man? 860 01:05:30,501 --> 01:05:34,481 I said I was going to ask an antagonistic question before the camera started rolling, and I haven't. 861 01:05:34,541 --> 01:05:37,420 So I feel like I should throw out one, which is one we threw out to Max Hill and Brandon. 862 01:05:37,481 --> 01:05:38,340 So this is a good one. 863 01:05:38,860 --> 01:05:48,380 So Lucas and I were talking with philosopher, technologist, builder, Artie Antola, who is somebody who's building on Bitcoin. 864 01:05:48,380 --> 01:05:54,960 He has this project, Canonic.xyz, where he's putting books on chain for very idealistic reasons. 865 01:05:56,140 --> 01:06:01,481 So he's a builder on Bitcoin and yet kind of for somebody who's building on Bitcoin. 866 01:06:01,620 --> 01:06:05,460 So imagine that there's different levels of Bitcoin revelation. 867 01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:07,680 You first realize, oh, this is a store of value. 868 01:06:07,700 --> 01:06:08,700 It's going to preserve my money. 869 01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:10,920 And then, oh, this is a medium of exchange. 870 01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:13,200 We can use this and disintermediate third parties. 871 01:06:13,820 --> 01:06:15,320 Oh, this is going to end war. 872 01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:19,001 And then you ascend up this pyramid of like revelations on Bitcoin. 873 01:06:19,420 --> 01:06:21,960 And then what's the one at the top of that pyramid? 874 01:06:22,660 --> 01:06:25,680 And so Artie and Tola, he said, he just kind of dropped it to us. 875 01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:27,160 He said, Bitcoin is the enemy. 876 01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:29,481 And so it's almost like this. 877 01:06:29,620 --> 01:06:34,920 What does that mean when somebody who is way down the Bitcoin rabbit hole says, Bitcoin 878 01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:35,620 is the enemy? 879 01:06:35,620 --> 01:06:41,340 But the question for you is, if somebody following a similar train of reasoning said to you, 880 01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:43,700 Kalvadev, I'm deep into Nostra. 881 01:06:43,900 --> 01:06:48,640 I've been thinking this thing, you know, all the ways down the road and all the ways it's 882 01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:49,820 going to make society better. 883 01:06:50,041 --> 01:06:53,120 And my final revelation is Nostra is the enemy. 884 01:06:53,460 --> 01:06:54,100 What does that mean? 885 01:06:55,100 --> 01:06:55,581 Oh, man. 886 01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:57,840 Dang, that's an interesting question. 887 01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:07,180 I think that kind of points to the lines of Bitcoin is for everyone. 888 01:07:07,900 --> 01:07:12,880 Because basically, it's not only for the people you love, 889 01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:21,220 but also it's open to those that can be adamant against whatever it is that you're fighting for. 890 01:07:22,481 --> 01:07:25,160 But interesting, Noster is the enemy. 891 01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:51,120 I would say I think it's also somewhat a function of how we go in a lot of times into something new and how we're developing something with the idea that the tool fundamentally is the thing that we're trying to optimize for. 892 01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:58,320 but at some point if we actually like use the tool to accomplish its goal using the tool becomes 893 01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:02,680 the very thing that is like holding us back from actually optimally reaching the goal because they 894 01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:08,041 have like the sense of community is what we're hoping for like using nostr at some like some 895 01:08:08,041 --> 01:08:12,860 very very foreign point once we actually like reach the level where nostr is the thing that 896 01:08:12,860 --> 01:08:17,920 connecting all our communities and everything like the need for it kind of completely disappears if 897 01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:19,020 like you're still engaging with it. 898 01:08:19,081 --> 01:08:21,400 You're like not, you're actually removing yourself 899 01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:23,160 from the actual direct human engagement 900 01:08:23,160 --> 01:08:24,121 that you're communicating with. 901 01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:25,721 So that's, I think, how I would take that. 902 01:08:26,101 --> 01:08:28,160 Like you're, the tool at some point 903 01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:29,601 becomes the thing holding you back 904 01:08:29,601 --> 01:08:31,880 from achieving like the quote unquote perfection 905 01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:33,860 of the intended original goal. 906 01:08:35,121 --> 01:08:36,320 Now, beautifully said. 907 01:08:36,400 --> 01:08:38,400 And that's, I mean, we're talking Heidegger's, 908 01:08:38,460 --> 01:08:40,300 the question concerning technology tomorrow. 909 01:08:40,380 --> 01:08:42,200 And that's such a beautiful bridge to that. 910 01:08:42,300 --> 01:08:43,780 So yeah, I love that explanation. 911 01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:44,260 Thank you. 912 01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:46,320 Yeah, the thing that got you here 913 01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:48,940 is not the thing that will get you to where you actually want to go. 914 01:08:49,081 --> 01:08:53,900 It's just that you have to leave it behind eventually. 915 01:08:53,900 --> 01:09:00,681 You think about like, I like hiking and I hate being cold. 916 01:09:01,121 --> 01:09:06,400 And so I would go hike and I would have my three pairs of socks 917 01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:09,440 and three layers on everything. 918 01:09:10,300 --> 01:09:15,980 And as you hike along, then you start to warm up 919 01:09:15,980 --> 01:09:18,460 and you start to become acclimated. 920 01:09:19,060 --> 01:09:23,221 You start and it's cold and it actually gets colder as you go up, 921 01:09:23,280 --> 01:09:25,660 yet you warm and you become used to it. 922 01:09:26,320 --> 01:09:30,001 And periodically you stop and you take off the gloves 923 01:09:30,001 --> 01:09:32,440 and you take off a pair of socks and you take off a layer 924 01:09:32,440 --> 01:09:37,880 and you leave behind these tools that were necessary conditions 925 01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:39,501 to get you to where you are, 926 01:09:39,820 --> 01:09:42,780 but they're not sufficient to get you to where you're going. 927 01:09:42,780 --> 01:09:48,560 and you have to leave that thing behind so it's tough to know that point when you have to leave 928 01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:53,200 the thing behind it's the knowing the point when you need social media that's tough you need to 929 01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:57,840 bootstrap you need to meet people maybe it's tough to know the point when the tool becomes the thing 930 01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:02,900 that's holding you back yeah and it it's just the means to the end right yeah it becomes the end at 931 01:10:02,900 --> 01:10:08,560 some point and you got to not let it yeah so what is the end what is the ultimate goal what's the 932 01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:12,320 I was about to ask you guys the exact same thing. 933 01:10:12,380 --> 01:10:14,081 So what do you guys think that the end is? 934 01:10:16,300 --> 01:10:20,820 So I'll take a shot at answering it because I want to hear what you have to say. 935 01:10:20,860 --> 01:10:22,541 And I definitely want to hear what Grant has to say. 936 01:10:23,041 --> 01:10:29,700 The thing that hit me when I first learned about Bitcoin, like of all the things that we can talk about, 937 01:10:29,700 --> 01:10:36,660 the thing that struck me was that Bitcoin incentivizes collaboration instead of competition. 938 01:10:36,660 --> 01:10:52,221 And it's fascinating to know that the only thing that we know of, which is absolutely scarce, is also the thing that removes our scarcity mindset. 939 01:10:52,221 --> 01:10:59,300 and it encourages us to work together because when we work together, we all benefit as opposed to 940 01:10:59,300 --> 01:11:10,081 the abundance of fiat of an ever-expanding supply encourages us to compete for our share 941 01:11:10,081 --> 01:11:17,200 of that ever-expanding supply and to always be competing for more of it because having this much 942 01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:24,760 today is equivalent to having this much divided by two tomorrow. And it becomes less and what we 943 01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:31,420 have becomes less and less over time. Whereas with Bitcoin, what we have becomes more and more over 944 01:11:31,420 --> 01:11:41,200 time. So I guess that's a Bitcoin centric attempt to answer that question. But it is revealing in 945 01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:51,181 that the best things in life are free, that love is probably the thing that trumps everything 946 01:11:51,181 --> 01:11:57,020 else. And so the meaning, I guess, of life is to find, or not to find love, the meaning 947 01:11:57,020 --> 01:12:03,501 of life is to allow love. Because when you look for something, you never find it. You 948 01:12:03,501 --> 01:12:11,121 know, wanting something is painful, but seeking something is pleasure. And it turns out 949 01:12:11,121 --> 01:12:17,641 that oftentimes when we are seeking, what we actually need to do is stop looking and just let 950 01:12:17,641 --> 01:12:25,001 go and surrender to the thing that is going to bring us. Like it was always there. You know, 951 01:12:25,041 --> 01:12:30,900 the love was always there. You just need to get out of your way. The healthy relationships were 952 01:12:30,900 --> 01:12:35,740 always there. You just need to get your ego out of the way. The healthy body was always there. 953 01:12:35,740 --> 01:12:45,200 You just need to get your addictions out of the way. So I don't know. Yeah, the meaning of life is love and collaboration, I guess. There's mine. That's good. Grant? 954 01:12:45,200 --> 01:12:51,860 Oh, no, I don't know that I would presume to be able to pontificate on that subject. 955 01:12:52,260 --> 01:13:08,400 Instead, I'll give what I kind of a memento mori style meditative technique that maybe people can unconceal or reveal to themselves what reality is trying to tell them as far as what its meaning is, what is already pregnant in reality. 956 01:13:08,400 --> 01:13:19,541 And one of those things, sometimes I do this, so memento mori is this idea, keep around you symbols of your own passing, your own mortality, like a skull to remind you you're going to die. 957 01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:30,601 A way to make this even more involved is imagine you're already dead, like sensorially do as much as you can to bring yourself to that point where you're already dead, right? 958 01:13:30,601 --> 01:13:32,700 But then imagine, you can't imagine that, right? 959 01:13:32,740 --> 01:13:35,001 Because that's the extinction of your ability to imagine that. 960 01:13:35,001 --> 01:13:42,560 imagine instead you are at that moment after you just came alive after being dead so what about 961 01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:49,721 reality floods your senses right so if you move from a state of nonsense of no sensing whatsoever 962 01:13:49,721 --> 01:13:55,221 like does does the mere act of filling your lungs fill you with a sort of sublime joy 963 01:13:55,221 --> 01:14:01,221 um does like the light itself the way that it cascades against the surface of brick buildings 964 01:14:01,221 --> 01:14:03,760 and brings out a very specific shade of red? 965 01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:05,260 Is that something that strikes you? 966 01:14:05,721 --> 01:14:07,501 And then do you want to hear the voice again 967 01:14:07,501 --> 01:14:10,181 after aeons of being dead, 968 01:14:10,280 --> 01:14:11,880 the voice of your loved ones, right? 969 01:14:11,940 --> 01:14:14,280 Who you now have the opportunity to do that with. 970 01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:16,940 And so again, that's not the meaning of life. 971 01:14:17,081 --> 01:14:19,420 And I said, I don't want to pontificate at that, 972 01:14:19,480 --> 01:14:21,660 but I think what we can always foster 973 01:14:21,660 --> 01:14:23,420 is like ways of revealing 974 01:14:23,420 --> 01:14:25,980 that are beyond the technological, 975 01:14:26,300 --> 01:14:27,780 like beyond the tools that we have. 976 01:14:27,820 --> 01:14:29,980 We can begin to look at life in different ways 977 01:14:29,980 --> 01:14:34,721 by considering a relationship to it in ways that are not just through the tools we have, 978 01:14:34,820 --> 01:14:41,440 not just the world I see is the spyglass I look through that is Twitter that shows me tweets, right? 979 01:14:41,501 --> 01:14:43,260 The world is a much broader thing. 980 01:14:43,260 --> 01:14:49,380 So focus on ways that you can engage with it that will reveal different things about the world to you. 981 01:14:50,480 --> 01:14:53,280 Kalvidev, we leave you with the last word. 982 01:14:53,700 --> 01:14:54,660 What do you have for us? 983 01:14:55,700 --> 01:14:58,101 Yeah, I was going to sort of off of that too. 984 01:14:58,101 --> 01:15:02,001 and this is a good place, I guess, to leave it unexplained. 985 01:15:02,641 --> 01:15:08,621 But one of my theories of how, I guess, 986 01:15:08,721 --> 01:15:13,660 human consciousness and the organization of life is structured 987 01:15:13,660 --> 01:15:17,221 is basically we are to the universe 988 01:15:17,221 --> 01:15:20,160 as our emotions are to ourselves or something like that. 989 01:15:20,420 --> 01:15:22,560 That's the closest I can have gotten to it. 990 01:15:22,560 --> 01:15:27,560 So each individual human being is like anger, 991 01:15:27,560 --> 01:15:33,300 happiness within our own mind and then like we we dissolve away and like reconvene with like the 992 01:15:33,300 --> 01:15:38,601 original like larger entity and each universe itself is like an emotion of whatever larger 993 01:15:38,601 --> 01:15:46,320 entity is that of the of the universe and uh what i think is and even to the point of like the uh 994 01:15:46,320 --> 01:15:52,501 nostril is the enemy almost like our lives are the enemy at some point um because or like our 995 01:15:52,501 --> 01:15:58,121 flesh bodies are the enemy because like uh i do believe like the end goal of everything is love 996 01:15:58,121 --> 01:16:03,121 and cooperation and like we're just like fine-tuning ourselves like reach a point where 997 01:16:03,121 --> 01:16:11,020 we can have optimal cooperation and uh we basically dissolve back into our universal 998 01:16:11,020 --> 01:16:19,280 shell and reconvene with the energy fields of of the of the of the universe and then just become 999 01:16:19,280 --> 01:16:23,240 one and like that's pure cooperation because we are just like one singular entity and motivated 1000 01:16:23,240 --> 01:16:26,840 for its singular purpose or a singular goal whatever that may be I don't know what the 1001 01:16:26,840 --> 01:16:30,740 universe's goal is but I think ours is to be as cooperative and as lovable as possible 1002 01:16:30,740 --> 01:16:37,920 yeah that is a beautiful way to end it Kalvadev thank you so much for joining us it it truly is 1003 01:16:37,920 --> 01:16:46,920 like I am I'm honored to to know you um I'm so impressed by what you've done in the space um 1004 01:16:46,920 --> 01:17:00,280 The first time that I saw you was when you made a presentation about Noster and talked about operation security and talked about the things that it could allow the world. 1005 01:17:00,280 --> 01:17:09,520 And you speak with not just knowledge about these things, but with the practicality that it brings something better to your life. 1006 01:17:09,681 --> 01:17:16,721 And it allows you to be just more of you instead of to be part of something else. 1007 01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:34,520 And I think that's absolutely beautiful. As we kick it out, let people know where they can find Milk Market, where they can find Shopster, etc., where they can follow, etc. Just let people know how they can join in this mission of yours. 1008 01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:39,960 And of course, we're going to tag the fundraising campaign as well in this. 1009 01:17:40,320 --> 01:17:44,081 And also, I'll be a contributor as well. 1010 01:17:44,181 --> 01:17:46,860 So I want to be a part of this mission. 1011 01:17:47,601 --> 01:17:48,121 Yeah, I love it. 1012 01:17:48,260 --> 01:17:56,240 Yeah, you can find, like the parent is Shopster Markets, S-H-O-P-S-T-R Markets with an S dot com. 1013 01:17:56,780 --> 01:17:59,820 And like there, you can see like Shopster, the Shopster Market and Milk Market. 1014 01:18:00,181 --> 01:18:02,740 Both of them are Shopster.Market and Milk.Market. 1015 01:18:02,740 --> 01:18:04,541 you can on social media, 1016 01:18:04,700 --> 01:18:06,660 you can follow Milk Market at Milk Market Media. 1017 01:18:07,221 --> 01:18:11,340 And then if you ever want to like get my contact or anything, 1018 01:18:11,501 --> 01:18:12,780 you can go to calva.dev, 1019 01:18:13,280 --> 01:18:15,520 just calva.dev. 1020 01:18:15,520 --> 01:18:18,700 And all my personal websites there, 1021 01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:20,721 you can email me, you can message me. 1022 01:18:21,121 --> 01:18:23,340 So yeah, all that's great. 1023 01:18:23,541 --> 01:18:26,160 And I'd love to really appreciate being a part of this 1024 01:18:26,160 --> 01:18:27,141 and like having the discussion. 1025 01:18:27,260 --> 01:18:29,060 It was really, really, really great to, yeah, 1026 01:18:29,181 --> 01:18:32,081 just think and be able to go back and forth. 1027 01:18:32,300 --> 01:18:32,641 Loved it. 1028 01:18:32,740 --> 01:18:37,960 my friend yeah my friend it is is absolutely wonderful to see the sun shining in your face 1029 01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:43,300 and see you smiling see that you're recovered from your from your marathon and doing well so 1030 01:18:43,300 --> 01:18:47,721 oh yeah still still still trying to recover but uh my cows are still killing me but 1031 01:18:47,721 --> 01:18:55,641 again uh thank you so much and uh i guess uh we'll talk to you next time man uh it's been a pleasure 1032 01:18:55,641 --> 01:18:57,121 yeah thank you