1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,060
All right, and we are back here on Bitcoin Study Sessions. Today, we are going over

2
00:00:06,060 --> 00:00:13,760
Chapter 6 in Natalie Smolenski's Anthology of Bitcoin Works. This chapter is titled

3
00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:20,240
Argentina Against Central Banking, The Election of Javier Malay. It's by Leopoldo Bebchuk.

4
00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:28,340
And as you can note by my dress, I am wearing the ceremonial garb of my native people. I am

5
00:00:28,340 --> 00:00:34,380
back in Kansas, staying at my folks place, which means that I'm drinking coffee that no one has

6
00:00:34,380 --> 00:00:39,320
wanted for the last four Christmases. It's maple southern pecan and it's absolutely disgusting.

7
00:00:39,660 --> 00:00:49,300
I am excited to watch the sunrise and I am here on the podcast where no one knows if me or Grant

8
00:00:49,300 --> 00:00:54,600
or even you are wearing pants, but that doesn't matter because we can learn without that.

9
00:00:55,180 --> 00:00:57,400
Shorts, I can confirm. Yeah, welcome back from Malaysia.

10
00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:02,300
in the States. So very good to have you here. Thank you. I do want to say just before we get

11
00:01:02,300 --> 00:01:08,240
started, so this, you may not be interested in Argentina. You may be someone who thinks that

12
00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:15,160
that's outside your realm. But before we get into it, I want to frame this as this is a moment within

13
00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:21,180
a larger movement. We are seeing the rise of populism across the world. We are seeing libertarian

14
00:01:21,180 --> 00:01:27,860
politics that is gaining steam. We are seeing the embracing of Bitcoin and cryptology,

15
00:01:28,100 --> 00:01:33,600
cryptography. And this is something that when we when we think about The Fourth Turning,

16
00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:38,840
which is a book that we probably will never review on this podcast until they turn it into

17
00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:44,320
a picture book because it is very dry to read. But this is one of those things that you've seen

18
00:01:44,320 --> 00:01:50,760
in those predictions that we will continue to split in terms of politics that just as we've

19
00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:56,120
witnessed a couple days ago, literally the first news that I got when I landed in the United States,

20
00:01:56,620 --> 00:02:03,320
Charlie Kirk was assassinated. We see the rise of violence, political violence and person-to-person

21
00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:09,660
violence. But there's hope. And there is great things that are waiting, great things that are

22
00:02:09,660 --> 00:02:14,640
coming. We make the world that we live in. We live in a sum of our choices and those choices

23
00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:21,080
are yet to be made. So nothing is as yet written. And as Bitcoiners, as people who love other people,

24
00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,700
this gives us a lot of hope. So I'm going to turn it over to Grant now. And Grant,

25
00:02:26,260 --> 00:02:32,160
walk us through both. Excellent contextual framing. This is important, no matter how esoteric it seems.

26
00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:36,900
And I hope it's going to seem a lot esoteric as we dig into it. This essay, as Lucas noted,

27
00:02:36,980 --> 00:02:43,900
is called Argentina Against Central Banking? The Election of Javier Malay by Leopoldo Bebchek.

28
00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:49,880
Leopoldo Bebchik is an anthropologist who has a degree from the University of Buenos Aires in Argentina.

29
00:02:50,140 --> 00:02:52,180
So he is or was down there.

30
00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,240
He's an analyst and product manager at MicroStrategy as well.

31
00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,440
So we know he is deep in Bitcoin and finance.

32
00:02:59,780 --> 00:03:01,540
This essay has four parts.

33
00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:07,920
So I'm going to give a broad overview, as we kind of usually do, and then Lucas and I are going to jump back and really pull this apart.

34
00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,620
So as a very, very broad overview, the four parts of this essay.

35
00:03:11,620 --> 00:03:15,700
First is it going to be a general history of central banking and the emergence of fiat.

36
00:03:15,920 --> 00:03:21,300
The second is going to look at this central banking in the context of Argentina historically.

37
00:03:21,860 --> 00:03:25,500
And the third part, we're going to look at the rise of Javier Malay, definitely a figure

38
00:03:25,500 --> 00:03:30,820
of interest for Bitcoiners, and the particular type of libertarianism that he has in the

39
00:03:30,820 --> 00:03:32,980
context of Argentinian politics.

40
00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:37,960
And then the last part of the essay kind of talks about Bitcoin's potential role given

41
00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,200
Javier Malay's politics and what's happening there.

42
00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:59,880
First part, general history of central banking and fiat. We've discussed kind of this genre of story a few times in the podcast. But in every book or essay that we read that talks about this history, there's always some interesting new nuance that the author kind of focuses on for what they want to explore. And here it's no different.

43
00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:04,760
But Bebchuk emphasizes that money develops before the state.

44
00:04:04,860 --> 00:04:06,040
He really puts emphasis on that.

45
00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,860
So money is not definition or intrinsically tied to the state.

46
00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:11,580
I think that's an interesting emphasis.

47
00:04:11,580 --> 00:04:15,660
We've talked in the past, in the context of a couple essays, this idea of

48
00:04:15,660 --> 00:04:19,000
chartalism, which is a theory that money is a creation of the state.

49
00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:24,260
Money is defined by or it's declared as legal tender by the state and

50
00:04:24,260 --> 00:04:27,640
collected in taxes by the state, which is what makes it money.

51
00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:34,300
But that can't be the case for the simple historical point that money preceded the state.

52
00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:35,480
So Bebchuk points that out.

53
00:04:35,580 --> 00:04:38,480
Money is independent of the state historically, at least for that reason.

54
00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,360
It has been independent of the state, as a matter of fact.

55
00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:47,680
Specifically, Egypt and Mesopotamia lacked coinage and centralized monetary policy for thousands of years.

56
00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:49,940
Their taxes were collected in labor of kind.

57
00:04:50,220 --> 00:04:52,360
Payments by government were made in food rations.

58
00:04:52,360 --> 00:05:00,800
And they even developed like the complex society with legal systems, property rights, banking, public affairs, all without state issued currency.

59
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,800
The first state issued money, coinage comes later.

60
00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:05,360
And here's a definition of coinage.

61
00:05:05,420 --> 00:05:06,820
I like when authors give definitions.

62
00:05:07,340 --> 00:05:08,660
Here is what Bebchik says.

63
00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:21,420
Coinage for him is, quote, the practice of manufacturing objects of identical dimensions, weight and composition and engraving signs on them to give an account of the of the objects characteristics and origins.

64
00:05:21,420 --> 00:05:35,820
And that last part is going to be an interesting emphasis for Bebchuk here, that the origin, coinage is not anonymous, but rather proclaims its origin and issuer. So Bebchuk highlights three very interesting interrelated aspects of coinage here.

65
00:05:35,820 --> 00:05:43,820
First, as we've seen in other essays, monetary control of the money by the state has been a military innovation.

66
00:05:44,780 --> 00:05:56,000
To quote Bebchuk, in part thanks to the new social technology of coinage, Alexander the Great was able to conquer larger territories than any previous ruler in the ancient Mediterranean and Near East.

67
00:05:56,280 --> 00:06:03,480
Another interesting observation Bebchuk makes about coinage is that this move from anonymity to proclamation of origin.

68
00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:19,260
So coin is not just uniform like gold bar bullion. It proclaims where it comes from. So this innovation of putting the ruler's image on the coin, you could then spread your image as like a propaganda tool around the realm, propaganda and control going hand in hand.

69
00:06:19,260 --> 00:06:35,520
And the final point that's really interesting that Bebchuk makes about this is related to this. He's an anthropologist. He draws from Marcel Moss on the anthropology of gifts, which Natalie Smolenski also discussed in her essay on the towards an anthropology of money in this collection.

70
00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:46,980
So Bebschuk says, elaborates from Marcel Maas, in which gifts are given to people to put them in your debt with this conceived as almost like a magical power, which we then call credit.

71
00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:53,020
So in this vein, Bebschuk says, quote, similarly, early coinage performed the dual function.

72
00:06:53,220 --> 00:07:03,400
It certified the physical properties of the coin and the coin's symbolic craftsmanship, then imbued it with the powers of its maker, often a sovereign or representative of a sovereign.

73
00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:12,860
So coinage has an issuer who is not anonymous, and that issuer puts their visage on the coin to remind us of those whose debt we are constantly in.

74
00:07:13,980 --> 00:07:17,580
Bebchuk, in his first part, also describes the historic rise of central banking in Europe,

75
00:07:17,780 --> 00:07:23,000
initially a minting process that is private, mainly private, rights are sold to clergy and nobles to mint.

76
00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,440
Competition between them kind of keeps them from abusing this too much.

77
00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:40,180
Then banks develop a story we've heard before through a process of increasing abstraction of the deposits that are given to them to where finally they're issuing bank notes that are not linked to deposits really in any real sense.

78
00:07:40,180 --> 00:07:44,060
Central banks then develop as partnerships between government and private groups.

79
00:07:44,340 --> 00:08:00,100
Due to financial crisis, they are then nationalized to allow governments to control and stabilize their currency, which Bebchuk kind of ironically or not ironically just notes that in practice, central banks have engineered or exacerbated currency crises, even though they're kind of nationalized to deal with them.

80
00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,900
Next, Bebchuk moves on to the second part, the history of central banking in Argentina.

81
00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,460
So now we're getting into the Argentinian context, which is the meat of this essay.

82
00:08:08,460 --> 00:08:33,820
Most listeners are probably aware that Argentina has had issues with its money. It's changed its official currency six times in the last 200 years. Processes have gone kind of hand in hand with like, you know, six changes to the Constitution as well. So there's been political and monetary changes. The monetary chaos has also included events of hyperinflation and the government freezing bank accounts to prevent people from taking their money out.

83
00:08:33,820 --> 00:08:58,560
With the different political regimes, this is, I think, one of the key points in the essay. There has been this pendulum swing between two economic models. You'll have an expansionist model moment influenced by Keynesian economic, Keynesian, however you want to say that, and Keynesian economics and economic nationalism, including things like income redistribution. You get a rise in wages, but then deficits also and inflation and shortages.

84
00:08:58,560 --> 00:09:12,500
So the pendulum swings over to a liberal economic orthodoxy, which she describes as kind of neoclassical economic theory, emphasizing order and efficiency, typically involving currency devaluation, wage decreases, etc.

85
00:09:12,700 --> 00:09:13,680
These are not popular.

86
00:09:13,820 --> 00:09:17,440
So the pendulum swings back to the Keynesian expansionism.

87
00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,460
The Argentinian Central Bank is established in that framework.

88
00:09:20,860 --> 00:09:21,700
It's a political tool.

89
00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:22,840
It's called the BCRA.

90
00:09:23,060 --> 00:09:27,060
I think that's Banco Central de la República de Argentina, something like that.

91
00:09:27,060 --> 00:09:32,900
It was nationalized, but BCRA. And so the BCRA is nationalized in one of the pendulum swings.

92
00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:39,540
And so it lacks independence, has been used kind of badly to try to stop the decline of the currency.

93
00:09:39,980 --> 00:09:46,580
In this context, it's very interesting. If you're interested in Argentinian politics, like historically, he discusses the rise of the different parties.

94
00:09:46,780 --> 00:09:52,220
The Peronist, a party called the Liberal Conservative Party, and then another one called the Radical Civic Union.

95
00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,560
So if interested in that context, check that part out.

96
00:09:55,560 --> 00:10:02,400
And the third part, then, we get the rise of Javier Malay, elected in 2023 with one of the highest percentages of votes in Argentina.

97
00:10:02,620 --> 00:10:09,600
Logically, he calls himself a liberal libertarian, liberal in Argentina as Ignatius Malay's rise to power.

98
00:10:10,660 --> 00:10:22,300
2015 is kind of when he emerged on the scene and engaging in overt criticisms in the media, characterized by his unique form of charisma, a kind of outburst of anger and insults, as Bebchuk puts it.

99
00:10:22,300 --> 00:10:26,480
In 2016, this is interesting, and I'm going to talk to Lucas about this when we get in the convo.

100
00:10:27,140 --> 00:10:42,940
In 2016, Augustin Laje, a social media influencer and key figure of the Argentinian alt-right, introduces Malay to ideas of cultural theorists on the left, like Antonio Gramsci and Michel Foucault, and how the left's political weapons can be used against it.

101
00:10:42,940 --> 00:10:58,440
And then in 2020, he learns these ideas. In 2020, he forms a coalition, La Libertad Avanza, and its planks include, according to the author, they kind of abandoned minor libertarian parties in favor of alliances with well-established figures.

102
00:10:59,560 --> 00:11:10,080
Millais kind of made the central figure of libertarian political reform and less pure or more pure activists, more kind of pure libertarians are kind of urged to get out or exited.

103
00:11:10,580 --> 00:11:15,060
In 2023, Malay then wins the election, benefiting from kind of a pendulum swing

104
00:11:15,060 --> 00:11:18,600
talked about earlier in that particular historical moment.

105
00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:20,980
He then has a three-part plan after being elected.

106
00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,420
Phase one, introduce free currency competition.

107
00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,880
So, you know, we have this idea of legal tender in phase one.

108
00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:32,520
The idea is to move away from that to allow currencies to compete to see which money people really want.

109
00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,340
Do they want the Argentinian peso or do they want something that's not going to lose its value?

110
00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,580
Phase two would then be eliminate the central bank and prohibit fractional reserve banking.

111
00:11:40,740 --> 00:11:50,840
Phase three is in kind of a more broad reform of health care education, the state security system, eliminating a system of federal government redistribution of taxing income to the provinces.

112
00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:52,220
They have something like that.

113
00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:53,780
So we're still in phase one, though.

114
00:11:54,120 --> 00:12:04,140
Argentina has allowed contracts to be denominated in any currency as kind of a start of a free currency competition, which brings us to the fourth and final part of the essay.

115
00:12:04,300 --> 00:12:05,340
What is Bitcoin's role?

116
00:12:05,340 --> 00:12:12,080
Malay publicly assumes kind of that the dollar is going to win the free currency competition.

117
00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,340
The problem is that, of course, the U.S. dollar is not independent from state sovereignty.

118
00:12:16,620 --> 00:12:20,480
It's just, you know, it's under the control of the sovereignty of another state.

119
00:12:20,740 --> 00:12:28,040
Bitcoin, of course, would be a currency, money, an asset that is independent of any issuer, independent of any sovereign.

120
00:12:28,300 --> 00:12:33,100
Here's the author's description of Bitcoin, which I'm just going to quote this because I like and I think, you know,

121
00:12:33,100 --> 00:12:38,740
everybody describes Bitcoin in their own way, kind of puts forward and emphasizes different

122
00:12:38,740 --> 00:12:42,460
properties. Here's how the author describes it in a couple of sentences. Bitcoin is a protocol

123
00:12:42,460 --> 00:12:48,860
with its own monetary policy and a network that functions as a payment system. These features of

124
00:12:48,860 --> 00:12:55,300
the Bitcoin protocol and network are not dependent upon or alterable by any government or single

125
00:12:55,300 --> 00:13:02,000
entity, which makes Bitcoin resilient to political manipulation. So Malay, as I mentioned, kind of

126
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:08,280
assumes that the dollar is going to win. And that kind of formulates his policy that way. He has not

127
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:13,640
publicly endorsed Bitcoin. The author notices that this may be due to international pressure from

128
00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:20,260
international lending organizations. Argentina has committed to the IMF prior to Malay to discourage

129
00:13:20,260 --> 00:13:25,940
the use of cryptocurrency. And the BCRA, the central bank, has forbade banks from providing

130
00:13:25,940 --> 00:13:31,620
any services related to Bitcoin or other crypto assets, things like that. So Bitcoin has not been

131
00:13:31,620 --> 00:13:36,440
like specifically advocated by Malay, although presumably if there is free currency competition,

132
00:13:36,620 --> 00:13:40,020
it's going to have its shot at the crown. There is more in this article that is great,

133
00:13:40,020 --> 00:13:44,680
but that's kind of what I want to get on the table for now. I'm going to end with this,

134
00:13:44,740 --> 00:13:50,100
which is a good point that Bemchuk also has in his conclusion that ties back to the historical

135
00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:55,960
narratives at the beginnings. For many, Malay seems revolutionary. His two main policy ideas,

136
00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:01,360
free monetary competition, the eventual abolishment of central banks seem very revolutionary,

137
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:11,920
But given the history of Bebchuk's note, this is just would just be a return to a historically common monetary regime where private issuers of money coexist and compete.

138
00:14:12,140 --> 00:14:15,340
Well, that's kind of a general summary of this essay.

139
00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:16,500
Again, I left a lot out.

140
00:14:16,580 --> 00:14:22,900
It's a very interesting essay, especially if you just hear a lot about Argentina and wonder, I mean, what's happening over there?

141
00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:24,220
What is their political system like?

142
00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:25,360
Does it mirror ours?

143
00:14:25,540 --> 00:14:27,480
What's the context for Malay?

144
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:28,380
All of that.

145
00:14:28,500 --> 00:14:30,760
This essay goes into great detail on that.

146
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:38,480
But Lucas, before I got some specific questions, I'm curious your thoughts on, but just generally, I mean, what was your take on this essay?

147
00:14:38,580 --> 00:14:39,100
What did you think?

148
00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:50,120
Big takeaway from just reading through was kind of going back to where I originally landed when I first started to understand Bitcoin.

149
00:14:51,060 --> 00:14:59,620
I think understanding Bitcoin allows you to really understand a lot about human behavior and psychology and rational and irrational decisions.

150
00:14:59,620 --> 00:15:20,220
Jason Lowry's softwar really helped me understand this. There's no evil here. There's just actors that are making rational decisions. The bug is the feature when you're the one making the rules and the bug benefits you. The bug being the ability for the government to feed itself by creating money.

151
00:15:20,220 --> 00:15:42,840
You know, at every turn, governments do what's logical given the rules. They act in self-interest just like people. And unfortunately for people, the interests of government do not align with theirs. And why is that? Because the government controls the money. It's like imagine playing poker against someone who could just make as many chips as they like.

152
00:15:42,840 --> 00:16:04,860
Doesn't matter how much they win or lose. They can always have an infinite stack of chips and you're playing against them and you have to earn your chips by winning. So the way that that game works, the other player can't lose as long as you keep playing. But you could always cash out your chips and leave. You can take what you've won and you can go to a fair game.

153
00:16:04,860 --> 00:16:26,740
And that's, I think, really what it means to sell your dollars or your pesos or your yen or yuan for Bitcoin because the game is unwinnable. The people now control the money and they will act in their self-interest as people do, which is great because acting in your own self-interest, it helps everybody else.

154
00:16:26,740 --> 00:16:45,420
So that was my big thing is just this understanding of the benefit is to the people when the people control the money. I thought it was really, you know, Argentina, I think, is, again, it's a moment within a movement. It's not a standalone.

155
00:16:45,420 --> 00:16:58,500
We're seeing across the world the rise of populist leaders, and we're seeing decisions being made that align with these more libertarian or liberal philosophy.

156
00:16:58,780 --> 00:17:04,840
Liberal being, of course, defined more in the conservative way that we would traditionally.

157
00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:06,820
You could say small L liberal is kind of how some people put it.

158
00:17:06,820 --> 00:17:07,140
Yeah.

159
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:07,520
Yeah.

160
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,520
I find it really fascinating.

161
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:19,120
One thing I wanted to throw out, so I did a little background here.

162
00:17:19,300 --> 00:17:24,600
So how has the economy of Argentina been affected by these policies?

163
00:17:24,940 --> 00:17:27,840
You know, their GDP growth is up.

164
00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:35,320
They're positive like 5.86%, somewhere around there, which was a big rebound.

165
00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:37,520
They had a negative growth for a while.

166
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:39,200
Their inflation is down.

167
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:46,880
It was over 200% annually, and now it's down to about 30-some percent, projected to fall even further.

168
00:17:47,200 --> 00:18:03,300
Now, of course, the negative side is that their unemployment rate has gone up, and that falls obviously right in line with Malay slashing a lot of government cheese, shutting down some government programs that were really just rent-seeking.

169
00:18:03,300 --> 00:18:13,360
But probably the biggest thing is that they have a surplus, like they haven't had a surplus of an economic surplus in 123 years.

170
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:18,840
And they were able to turn this around within two years of Malay in the presidency.

171
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:24,120
I think it's important to frame in terms of how it has benefited the economy.

172
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:29,100
Obviously, there's always tradeoffs, but it seems to be.

173
00:18:29,100 --> 00:18:31,960
It does.

174
00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:33,820
And I hear positive things as well.

175
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:39,180
Safdie and Amos, if I'm always no question if I pronounce his name correctly or many people's name.

176
00:18:39,260 --> 00:18:40,480
So I apologize if I'm not.

177
00:18:41,060 --> 00:18:42,040
Austrian economist.

178
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,440
He has been very critical recently on Twitter of Malay.

179
00:18:46,060 --> 00:18:52,360
He has some stats that the monetary creation under Malay has been greater than in any other period.

180
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,680
And I don't know how to evaluate these claims.

181
00:18:54,920 --> 00:19:06,965
You know he said there been 30 percent annualized They expecting kind of 30 percent annualized inflation saw actually Amos say 25 So he kind of right on board with that That terrible

182
00:19:06,965 --> 00:19:11,485
in any stable situation. Maybe it's good for Argentina, though, right?

183
00:19:11,665 --> 00:19:15,505
I think Amos' criticism is actually

184
00:19:15,505 --> 00:19:19,525
in line with what this essay is saying, where there's kind of a broader criticism

185
00:19:19,525 --> 00:19:23,425
coming from very pure libertarians toward Malay who's made this compromise

186
00:19:23,425 --> 00:19:25,205
by engaging with the state.

187
00:19:25,365 --> 00:19:27,505
What are the couple of planks of Malay's

188
00:19:27,505 --> 00:19:29,585
Libertad Avanzo, the coalition that he makes

189
00:19:29,585 --> 00:19:30,765
actually get into the power?

190
00:19:30,945 --> 00:19:33,825
A get into power was like very pure libertarians

191
00:19:33,825 --> 00:19:36,245
who advocate no compromise with the state,

192
00:19:36,505 --> 00:19:37,885
very direct policies.

193
00:19:38,065 --> 00:19:40,005
They're kind of purged in a sense.

194
00:19:40,225 --> 00:19:43,005
And then Malay's kind of somebody who's going to work

195
00:19:43,005 --> 00:19:44,645
at least within the system insofar

196
00:19:44,645 --> 00:19:46,445
as he's a candidate in the system.

197
00:19:46,625 --> 00:19:47,865
There's always the question, like,

198
00:19:47,925 --> 00:19:49,605
what does that even mean for a libertarian

199
00:19:49,605 --> 00:19:52,245
if they become part of the political system

200
00:19:52,245 --> 00:20:03,725
that really they say, based on the principle of non-aggression, is kind of immoral because it uses violence as the way, you know, violence is the principle by which the state operates.

201
00:20:03,805 --> 00:20:05,585
If you're libertarians, that's very immoral.

202
00:20:05,805 --> 00:20:13,165
So there's always the question of compromise, and people like Amos and the very pure libertarians, I think, are always going to criticize people like Millay.

203
00:20:13,165 --> 00:20:16,585
Now, I'm not saying one party's correct or incorrect.

204
00:20:17,145 --> 00:20:20,665
This dynamic is noted in this essay.

205
00:20:20,665 --> 00:20:27,885
and you know it's also like unclear how far malay has come along again is like what he wants to do

206
00:20:27,885 --> 00:20:34,265
currency competition first a winner emerges and then abolish the central bank how is a currency

207
00:20:34,265 --> 00:20:39,125
competition coming along it's kind of unclear they've denominated allowed contracts to be

208
00:20:39,125 --> 00:20:44,585
denominated in other currencies but you know it hasn't been one thing i wanted to throw back at

209
00:20:44,585 --> 00:20:50,125
you lucas and this is a clarifying point is what does free currency competition mean and how this

210
00:20:50,125 --> 00:20:54,785
distinguishes it from the Salvadoran context, because I think this kind of will be explanatory

211
00:20:54,785 --> 00:21:01,045
for clarificatory for boats. El Salvador established briefly Bitcoin. I think that

212
00:21:01,045 --> 00:21:05,665
they had to back off because of IMF pushing them, established Bitcoin as legal tender.

213
00:21:06,725 --> 00:21:11,925
Tina's plan is to abolish the idea of legal tender altogether. So I mean, what they want to do

214
00:21:11,925 --> 00:21:18,545
through free currency competition is you just let the best currency emerge because people of their

215
00:21:18,545 --> 00:21:22,705
own free choosing are going to want to use the best money. So we have kind of like at the nation

216
00:21:22,705 --> 00:21:28,785
state level, two possibilities for the adoption of something like Bitcoin. One is declare Bitcoin

217
00:21:28,785 --> 00:21:33,645
legal tender, let people use it, bide with, you know, along with the national currency or in lieu

218
00:21:33,645 --> 00:21:38,685
of it, but just say it is the only other or it is a legal tender or abolish the idea of legal

219
00:21:38,685 --> 00:21:45,625
tender together. See if Bitcoin wins amongst the other cryptos or assets that vie to be used as

220
00:21:45,625 --> 00:21:50,405
currency and also wins against the national currency. I mean, do you have a stance between

221
00:21:50,405 --> 00:21:56,745
El Salvador and Argentina or political regimes of, you know, how to let currencies sort themselves

222
00:21:56,745 --> 00:22:05,405
out? Yeah, I do believe that it's a wiser decision to not declare a currency and force people to use

223
00:22:05,405 --> 00:22:11,245
one thing over another. If you let the free market work, it's going to do its job. And that was

224
00:22:11,245 --> 00:22:17,105
talked about a little bit in the essay with the rise of coinage and government coinage ended the

225
00:22:17,105 --> 00:22:22,805
anonymity of money. And I just want to dig into a little bit about how that would work. You had

226
00:22:22,805 --> 00:22:27,725
money before you had state money and you had hard money before you had state money. You had

227
00:22:27,725 --> 00:22:35,185
copper coins and things like that that were just produced by whoever had copper. And those monies

228
00:22:35,185 --> 00:22:38,665
were validated in the market by the people.

229
00:22:39,185 --> 00:22:41,805
And you have to think about how this would rationally work

230
00:22:41,805 --> 00:22:45,105
is I live in an area that has some copper

231
00:22:45,105 --> 00:22:48,425
and therefore I'm gonna make my own little copper coins

232
00:22:48,425 --> 00:22:51,165
and then I'm gonna take them and try to trade with them.

233
00:22:51,405 --> 00:22:54,905
And the market is going to determine the value of my coins.

234
00:22:55,005 --> 00:22:57,065
I am going to take them to the butcher.

235
00:22:57,285 --> 00:22:58,605
I'm gonna take them to the baker.

236
00:22:58,765 --> 00:23:00,465
I'm gonna take them to the pie maker.

237
00:23:00,625 --> 00:23:02,485
And they are going to determine

238
00:23:02,485 --> 00:23:05,065
what goods that I can purchase with that.

239
00:23:05,185 --> 00:23:07,565
which is how the system should work.

240
00:23:07,965 --> 00:23:12,525
And so you can see that in that realm,

241
00:23:12,905 --> 00:23:15,805
the baker makes the bread, the butcher makes the steaks,

242
00:23:16,025 --> 00:23:18,345
and I make the coins, this works.

243
00:23:18,645 --> 00:23:22,165
This actually is the free market doing its job,

244
00:23:22,165 --> 00:23:25,625
and it's an example of hard money,

245
00:23:25,845 --> 00:23:28,185
where the money has to be earned.

246
00:23:28,565 --> 00:23:32,565
It has to be produced by someone through the value of their work

247
00:23:32,565 --> 00:23:33,985
and brought to the market,

248
00:23:33,985 --> 00:23:36,545
and then the market then determines its value.

249
00:23:36,845 --> 00:23:39,705
So I am one of the people that I was really excited

250
00:23:39,705 --> 00:23:42,765
when El Salvador declared Bitcoin as a national currency

251
00:23:42,765 --> 00:23:46,425
because I thought that that was a good thing for Bitcoin.

252
00:23:46,765 --> 00:23:48,725
I thought it was a good thing for the people of the world.

253
00:23:48,985 --> 00:23:51,025
But free market currency competition,

254
00:23:51,025 --> 00:23:54,585
I think is actually a far better approach

255
00:23:54,585 --> 00:23:57,065
where you just say, look, we're gonna be hands-off

256
00:23:57,065 --> 00:24:00,925
and the government doesn't need to have a place

257
00:24:00,925 --> 00:24:02,965
within the monetary regime

258
00:24:02,965 --> 00:24:06,305
because when they do control things in the money,

259
00:24:06,425 --> 00:24:08,805
then if you control the money, you control the people.

260
00:24:09,145 --> 00:24:11,865
And so I do believe that this is the proper way,

261
00:24:11,965 --> 00:24:13,485
that this makes a lot more sense

262
00:24:13,485 --> 00:24:15,705
than forcing anything upon people.

263
00:24:15,925 --> 00:24:18,445
So to me, that's the wise thing

264
00:24:18,445 --> 00:24:20,385
and that's what we should be doing.

265
00:24:20,585 --> 00:24:22,725
One of the things that I find interesting

266
00:24:22,725 --> 00:24:27,085
is that Malay is a proponent of making Argentina

267
00:24:27,085 --> 00:24:28,625
a place for crypto dollars,

268
00:24:29,425 --> 00:24:32,525
stable coins backed by US treasury bills,

269
00:24:32,525 --> 00:24:35,185
which has some interesting compounding effects.

270
00:24:35,465 --> 00:24:41,085
It obviously opens the market for U.S. debt, which allows the U.S. to print more debt.

271
00:24:41,325 --> 00:24:43,185
If they can print more debt, they will.

272
00:24:43,465 --> 00:24:46,085
Again, this is a feature, not a bug of the system.

273
00:24:46,445 --> 00:24:51,785
And so I find it fascinating because we think that the logical thing is to think that Bitcoin

274
00:24:51,785 --> 00:24:54,545
is going to displace the dollar and choke it out.

275
00:24:54,685 --> 00:25:00,365
But I think what's actually going to happen is more and more countries are going to open

276
00:25:00,365 --> 00:25:05,645
up to using stable coins, which is going to allow the U.S. to print a lot more debt, which is going

277
00:25:05,645 --> 00:25:12,205
to further devalue the currency against hard currencies. Bitcoin, gold-backed Russian ruble,

278
00:25:12,465 --> 00:25:17,805
a gold-backed Chinese yuan, both of these countries are accumulating huge stores of gold

279
00:25:17,805 --> 00:25:23,825
relative to where they've been in the past. And so I think it's fascinating that we may actually

280
00:25:23,825 --> 00:25:31,205
see that the spread of the U.S. dollar is going to accelerate its decline by allowing for more

281
00:25:31,205 --> 00:25:38,825
debt issuance further devalues the dollar. Yeah, no, and that's an open question as to

282
00:25:38,825 --> 00:25:45,305
how this is going to interplay, interreact with U.S. monetary policy when other countries

283
00:25:45,305 --> 00:25:50,845
open the doors to free currency competition. Malay's assumption is that U.S. dollar wins

284
00:25:50,845 --> 00:26:01,405
And then that tied to stable coins as a means of getting the dollars into this jurisdiction in a smooth and efficient manner may facilitate U.S. debt, as you know.

285
00:26:01,405 --> 00:26:14,785
And then the further question, what does that mean for the reign of the U.S. dollar as other countries kind of dollarize and attempt, if they do, to stabilize their own monetary situation through free currency competition?

286
00:26:14,785 --> 00:26:16,965
What does that mean for the U.S. dollar long term?

287
00:26:17,165 --> 00:26:24,405
Does it stabilize it periodically, but then lead to more debt issuance over time and invest us all in the same ticking time bomb situation?

288
00:26:24,765 --> 00:26:26,945
Yeah, that's a terrifying thing to think about.

289
00:26:27,005 --> 00:26:33,565
I mean, we just get ourselves further, further in as more and more countries dollarize and the ledger expands before it breaks.

290
00:26:34,825 --> 00:26:37,965
Well, as Leon Alden says, nothing stops this train.

291
00:26:38,145 --> 00:26:40,805
We are moving into a Bitcoin world.

292
00:26:40,805 --> 00:26:47,625
And I just want to point out, so if you encourage people to use crypto dollars, then you're encouraging them to learn how to use crypto.

293
00:26:48,065 --> 00:26:53,025
And that's good for Bitcoin because that means that they will exist within that ecosystem.

294
00:26:53,305 --> 00:26:54,625
They'll be off the fiat rails.

295
00:26:54,885 --> 00:27:02,105
And it's far more likely that someone using crypto dollars will use Bitcoin as a store of value within that.

296
00:27:02,105 --> 00:27:09,385
That would be kind of the Gresham's Law principle where you're going to use the crypto dollars and you're going to hang on to the Bitcoin.

297
00:27:09,385 --> 00:27:10,165
Mm hmm.

298
00:27:10,945 --> 00:27:14,205
Like the mechanics of how they treat this from a taxation level.

299
00:27:14,505 --> 00:27:19,785
Are you going to tax the conversion of stable coins back into fiat?

300
00:27:20,025 --> 00:27:27,445
And if you do that, then you're going to encourage people to not do that, which means that they will be encouraged to use Bitcoin.

301
00:27:27,445 --> 00:27:44,945
Also, are you not going to tax that that conversion? And if you're not going to tax that conversion, that means you're probably on a very weak logical footing in order to justify taxing the conversion of stable coins into Bitcoin, which further encourages the use of Bitcoin.

302
00:27:44,945 --> 00:27:53,025
so everything lines up bitcoin i mean bitcoin is going to win it's going to be a question of how

303
00:27:53,025 --> 00:27:58,985
fast and i think that we're in a position now where if you don't adopt bitcoin then you're going

304
00:27:58,985 --> 00:28:03,925
to be if you're going to be forced to do it and if you do adopt cryptocurrency then you're going

305
00:28:03,925 --> 00:28:10,305
to be encouraged to move closer to bitcoin so all roads lead to the same place it appears in this

306
00:28:10,305 --> 00:28:16,345
in this regime. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Bitcoin has particular qualities being a asset without an

307
00:28:16,345 --> 00:28:22,105
issuer that as people become more concerned about how sovereigns manipulate currencies and the

308
00:28:22,105 --> 00:28:26,245
effect that that has on those currencies long term. There's another aspect of this essay that

309
00:28:26,245 --> 00:28:33,705
I wanted to dial in on that is related to this tactically, I think, as to how Bitcoin gains

310
00:28:33,705 --> 00:28:40,805
ground. And it's also just an incredibly interesting note. So we often hear populist,

311
00:28:40,885 --> 00:28:44,885
that word thrown around. Millet is a populist candidate. Trump is a populist candidate.

312
00:28:45,265 --> 00:28:50,665
What strategically, though, goes into something like populism? Like, how does that gain ground

313
00:28:50,665 --> 00:28:55,205
and traction? This essay, I mentioned this in the summary. It's really interesting. Millet emerges

314
00:28:55,205 --> 00:29:02,685
in 2015. And then he kind of gains some backing or he learns from this guy, Augustin Lache,

315
00:29:02,685 --> 00:29:08,145
who's an all-right influencer, social media influencer, who has like a big platform, very

316
00:29:08,145 --> 00:29:15,025
powerful media-wise in Argentina. He kind of convinces Millay to consider the tactics of

317
00:29:15,025 --> 00:29:21,045
leftist cultural theories, theorists like Foucault and Gramsci. This is very interesting. There's a

318
00:29:21,045 --> 00:29:27,505
figure in the United States, Chris Ruffo, who's doing the same thing. Manhattan Institute, I

319
00:29:27,505 --> 00:29:34,525
believe he has got the, among other achievements, got the president of Harvard, Claudine Gay,

320
00:29:34,725 --> 00:29:39,105
or Gray, whatever her name is, fired for plagiarism and collected a lot of other scalps. He's really

321
00:29:39,105 --> 00:29:45,765
going after the institutions. And he often cites Gramsci and has taken a no holds barred to going

322
00:29:45,765 --> 00:29:51,105
after institutions. He targets DEI as kind of one of his big things that he goes after. He's

323
00:29:51,105 --> 00:29:56,065
currently actually working on a book called How the Regime Rules, which is described as a manifesto

324
00:29:56,065 --> 00:29:58,025
for the new right, which is inspired by Gramsci.

325
00:29:58,565 --> 00:30:04,185
And Rufo says of Gramsci that Gramsci, in a sense, provides the diagram of how politics

326
00:30:04,185 --> 00:30:08,465
works and the relationships between all the various components, parts, intellectuals,

327
00:30:08,505 --> 00:30:11,085
institution, laws, culture, and folklore.

328
00:30:11,385 --> 00:30:15,605
And there's a Wall Street Journal article that's pretty good on this, describing Rufo

329
00:30:15,605 --> 00:30:20,285
and his relation to Gramsci, which is, again, parallels, mirrors Augustine Leahy's relation

330
00:30:20,285 --> 00:30:25,645
to Gramsci and Malay's adoption of this type of strategy in Argentina to bring him to power.

331
00:30:25,645 --> 00:30:30,365
but can be seen as the godfather, I'm reading now from the article, of today's culture wars.

332
00:30:30,505 --> 00:30:36,645
A dedicated opponent of Italy's fascist dictator, Bruno Mussolini, he spent most of his last decade,

333
00:30:36,985 --> 00:30:41,945
Gert Gramsci did, in prison where he developed a highly influential new way of thinking about politics

334
00:30:41,945 --> 00:30:46,285
that put culture rather than economics at the center of class struggle.

335
00:30:46,505 --> 00:30:53,765
In his prison notebooks, Gramsci reckoned with why so much of the Italian working class supported Mussolini's far-right fascist party,

336
00:30:53,765 --> 00:30:56,965
exactly the opposite of what Marx's economic theory predicted.

337
00:30:57,265 --> 00:31:01,165
He found the answer in what he called cultural hegemony,

338
00:31:01,165 --> 00:31:09,485
a form of power that convinced ordinary people to embrace ideas and policies they otherwise wouldn't support.

339
00:31:09,845 --> 00:31:13,645
And I'm going to skip down the article and conclude this little question to you, Lucas, with this,

340
00:31:13,725 --> 00:31:17,665
that the Wall Street Journal notes writers like Curtis Yarvin,

341
00:31:17,825 --> 00:31:23,185
whose influence vice president J.D. Vance, have talked about how to capture power through a culture war.

342
00:31:23,765 --> 00:31:29,245
This war is not fought with bombs and bullets or even laws and judges, Yarvin wrote in 2022.

343
00:31:29,645 --> 00:31:33,725
This war is fought with books and films and plays and poems.

344
00:31:34,085 --> 00:31:35,665
It is still a savage war.

345
00:31:35,845 --> 00:31:37,485
So two questions on that.

346
00:31:37,565 --> 00:31:52,985
I guess, I mean, just generally, what do you think about, like, the adoption by the right of the United States to the extent it has through Chris Ruffo of this idea that we need to regain control of the institutions in order to, like, win a cultural battle before you can win any sort of political battle?

347
00:31:52,985 --> 00:32:10,665
And also, what does this mean about Bitcoin's adoption? Is there we focus on economics a lot within the Bitcoin community, both from the perspective of like Austrian financial theory, monetary theory, and just generally number go up and everything. But is there a coach to the adoption of Bitcoin? What do you think?

348
00:32:10,665 --> 00:32:30,825
The first thing is thinking about Balaji's description of how the network state comes to power and why it's infeasible and impossible actually to have a war right now. And it's because there is no north or south. We are divided ideologically, but not geographically.

349
00:32:30,825 --> 00:32:51,225
And so you can't bomb Houston or San Francisco or Miami or Chicago because your supporters are interspersed within those populations. There's there's no place in the United States where it's just one side and not the other.

350
00:32:51,225 --> 00:33:02,345
And so this is a war that has to be fought in these on the battleground of culture and not kinetically because there just is no way to separate out by landmass.

351
00:33:02,345 --> 00:33:20,505
The approach of fighting the culture war is very evident in United States here. We've seen the rise over the last really accelerated over the last five years of libertarian, conservative comedy, movies, music, podcasts, books.

352
00:33:20,505 --> 00:33:37,165
You know, the culture is always the leading part of where the economic decisions are made. It's always downstream of that because the people that are the bellwethers of the culture are the artists. They are the musicians. They are the poets. They are the comedians.

353
00:33:37,165 --> 00:33:57,785
And, you know, we'll take this back to the original intent of the court jester, the first comedians of the original intent of the court jester was to be someone who was below reproach, who was able to call out the absurdities of the system and make it make it done so in a way that is both hilarious and true.

354
00:33:57,785 --> 00:34:15,505
A comedy is not funny if it's not true. And so we can access these ideas through the culture. We can access these ideas through the works of art, through the music, through the comedy, through the podcast and the books and the plays and everything like that.

355
00:34:15,505 --> 00:34:28,505
We can accelerate in that direction. I find it absolutely confirming to look around and see that right now the world's biggest artists are unsponsored. They're outside of the system.

356
00:34:28,505 --> 00:34:46,545
They are people that rose from their own merit and appealed to the people on the basis of what their idea was, what the not what the musical algorithm was that was used to produce their produce their pop hit.

357
00:34:46,545 --> 00:35:00,365
So that in that regard, I think it's absolutely correct that culture is going to be the leading thing that moves the people in a direction where the economic decisions come downstream of the cultural movement.

358
00:35:00,505 --> 00:35:02,845
The second part of your question was about Bitcoin.

359
00:35:03,305 --> 00:35:04,785
Can you refresh me a little bit?

360
00:35:04,785 --> 00:35:20,885
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of, yeah, some questions blended together, but it was more like, how does Bitcoin then, if this idea of cultural hegemony, do you have to win any struggle through the culture and not through politics without culture through the military, like you have to win the cultural battle?

361
00:35:21,305 --> 00:35:22,525
How does Bitcoin do that?

362
00:35:22,625 --> 00:35:25,405
Like, how does Bitcoin, you know, I mean, it's a decentralized protocol.

363
00:35:25,525 --> 00:35:28,125
Like, Bitcoin doesn't do anything, right, except for what it does.

364
00:35:28,125 --> 00:35:37,745
And so if you use the quote in the article, if the war of cultural hegemony is fought with books and films and plays and poems, is there that with Bitcoin? Could there be? Should there be?

365
00:35:37,745 --> 00:36:06,425
Yeah, well, it's fought, you know, those are the those are the instruments that are being used to fight it with. But it's the ideology and the the rules and the beliefs that are channeled through those instruments. The rules and beliefs and ideology of Bitcoin are in a line with that. And so, you know, freedom and the ability to be anonymous or pseudonymous, the ability to transact without without handcuffs.

366
00:36:06,425 --> 00:36:12,045
Yeah. These are these are aligning ideologies and aligning beliefs that fall within.

367
00:36:12,045 --> 00:36:14,885
But these are like technological characteristics of Bitcoin.

368
00:36:15,005 --> 00:36:15,965
These are all well and good.

369
00:36:16,285 --> 00:36:21,865
And maybe the art is going to kind of sing the ballad of those properties.

370
00:36:21,865 --> 00:36:26,445
But to kind of give an example, recently, like I don't really watch a lot of superhero

371
00:36:26,445 --> 00:36:32,425
movies or Star Wars movies, but, you know, I've read just kind of criticism that there

372
00:36:32,425 --> 00:36:37,525
has been kind of the heavy handed implementation in these movies of ideas about race or gender

373
00:36:37,525 --> 00:36:39,665
that are kind of very progressive or whatever.

374
00:36:39,665 --> 00:37:02,365
So that's an attempt, one would say, of the cultural hegemony of progressive values to win the cultural battle by using through the use of art. And the right would do the same thing, right? Is that you take art and then you subtly put into it the values that you want people to live and abide by. And you want to make part of kind of the cultural air that we breathe.

375
00:37:02,365 --> 00:37:29,485
You know, what does that look like for Bitcoin? Recently, I didn't listen to it, but you were tweeted another song by Oliver Anthony, who very famously kind of had a song about the banks and stuff. Not, you know, he doesn't mention Bitcoin in that, but that kind of sentiment was very, that he expressed in the original song. You probably know the lyrics and could quote them better than I could because I, in fact, can't. But it kind of was a very economic populist idea that a Bitcoiner would be sympathetic to.

376
00:37:29,485 --> 00:37:56,565
And so like, do you see, I mean, what do you see as Bitcoin art being? Is it a song about Bitcoin? Is it something like Oliver Anthony that makes people feel positive association towards values that Bitcoin also represents? You're an artist. I mean, you're a musician, Lucas, put you on the spot. How does one make art about a technological protocol without just selling out to being a Bitcoin shill and also making good art?

377
00:37:56,565 --> 00:38:09,190
Yeah So first off the line from Oliver Anthony song Richmond North of Richmond which I used to intro my talk about money your dollar ain shit and it taxed to no end

378
00:38:09,190 --> 00:38:20,510
And that was really just such a brilliantly bold thing to say that resonated incredibly with the people because it's, again, it's true.

379
00:38:20,510 --> 00:38:30,030
I think about this actually, because I see people put up Bitcoin songs and I see people put up Bitcoin influenced art.

380
00:38:30,290 --> 00:38:32,230
And most of it's pretty bad.

381
00:38:32,430 --> 00:38:35,770
I kind of think about it the way I think about like church hymns.

382
00:38:35,850 --> 00:38:39,390
Like you go to church, there's like eight hymns that are really good.

383
00:38:39,510 --> 00:38:42,490
And then there's about 4,000 that just suck.

384
00:38:42,610 --> 00:38:45,750
And the only reason that they get any play is because they say God.

385
00:38:45,750 --> 00:39:05,390
And it's like, yeah, if you're praising God, then it doesn't apparently you're not allowed to make judgment on the quality of the music. But what it allows you to do is it allows you to make beauty that you're unconstrained by the politics and the ideology that is being forced upon you.

386
00:39:05,390 --> 00:39:32,390
You brought up the superhero movies. And I remember the turning point for me because I was a huge fan of the Marvel movies until the second Black Panther movie. So the Iron Man, Iron Man was awesome. And Captain America was awesome. They were all great. And then they make the second Black Panther movie. And it was just a DEI woke nightmare. And it was it made it to the point where it was just unwatchable for me.

387
00:39:32,390 --> 00:39:47,170
I have not watched a single one since then. And that's been a while. Like that movie's been out for the better part of a decade, I believe. At a certain point, you know, people start to realize that they're being force fed something.

388
00:39:47,170 --> 00:40:02,890
And when you're, I remember before, I think even before COVID, you know, you'd sit and you'd watch TV and it would cut to commercial and you'd be like, how is it that there's not a single white person in any commercial?

389
00:40:03,430 --> 00:40:03,530
Yeah.

390
00:40:04,650 --> 00:40:14,410
Is everyone multicultural except for one race, which happens to be the dominant race in the United States?

391
00:40:14,410 --> 00:40:16,930
I mean, there's more white people than there are any other race.

392
00:40:16,930 --> 00:40:42,590
And so how is that? Yeah, that's the perfect example of this idea of cultural hegemony that Augustine Lache and Chris Ruffo in the United States are advancing as kind of a praxis for any sort of political movement that actually want to get traction is you need to like we can critique that if you disagree with that infusion of certain progressive values into the representation in commercials and in movies, you can critique that.

393
00:40:42,590 --> 00:41:03,370
But what's the alternative? Like, what are you going to do? Like, realize that culture is a battlefield. There was never any neutral culture. There was never a moment before the DC comics where they were uncorrupted art. They were just art that had different values. And so, like, what is, if you, I mean, there's always a tension, man. You want to make good art that represents this universal ideal of beauty.

394
00:41:03,370 --> 00:41:13,570
But you also, I mean, you are part of a culture that has values and what values are going to be infused either explicitly or implicitly in that art.

395
00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:14,570
Maybe that's what art is.

396
00:41:14,630 --> 00:41:17,810
It's art that it's a heart whose values are only implicit.

397
00:41:18,170 --> 00:41:29,370
I mean, you know that like Bitcoin art can seem bad because it's like when you have the Christian singer that sings about loving Jesus, but it's a song where they just like remove my girlfriend and insert Jesus.

398
00:41:29,370 --> 00:41:30,530
Right. Like I love Jesus.

399
00:41:30,710 --> 00:41:32,310
And, you know, that type of like template.

400
00:41:32,450 --> 00:41:32,670
Right.

401
00:41:32,670 --> 00:41:38,510
It's like a difference between an artist who sings because they love Jesus and an artist who sings about loving Jesus.

402
00:41:38,630 --> 00:41:41,070
There's like a distinction there where the values are implicit.

403
00:41:41,070 --> 00:41:45,110
And like, who are the artists who create because they love Bitcoin?

404
00:41:45,550 --> 00:41:57,110
And that makes them like burn with a desire to represent graphically or poetically decentralization in a way that doesn't maybe even mention Bitcoin.

405
00:41:57,330 --> 00:42:02,450
But for people who are Bitcoiners, they say, man, that just spoke to me, you know?

406
00:42:02,670 --> 00:42:23,590
And like I think about like what is practically speaking like what would that mean? You know, there's there's a really good Twitter account called Hashthetics, like aesthetics with hash in it. And they just it's kind of there's interesting like Twitter, a genre of Twitter account that I really enjoy is the aesthetics account where they try to curate like an aesthetic representation of a feeling, a moment of something.

407
00:42:23,590 --> 00:42:33,030
And I feel like the accounts like that do that for Bitcoin without, you know, just like drawing a big orange bee and trying to make it look interesting. Right.

408
00:42:33,030 --> 00:42:41,150
They like find some other things like a tortoise shell, a recent was, and they put that tortoise shell like really strikingly next to a computer chip.

409
00:42:41,230 --> 00:42:56,230
And you see the parallels between the organic ways that nature creates representation and the ways that Bitcoin has its own aesthetic implicit or like it already has its own kind of cypherpunk Blade Runner aesthetic.

410
00:42:56,230 --> 00:42:58,590
It's really easy to build out into something very cool.

411
00:42:58,590 --> 00:43:15,270
Yeah, I think about in this realm, I think about the music of the of the 60s and the protest music, America, true, true, like Americana, Bob Dylan type of music and Fortunate Son by Clearwater Revival.

412
00:43:15,270 --> 00:43:44,530
These songs that they are expressing the trials and tribulations that are being gone through by people without directly condemning, but just making comment on the state of things and how that state of things is affecting their life and how it's changing the world around them and how they, you know, as a conscientious objector, how you are removing yourself from the game.

413
00:43:44,530 --> 00:43:48,090
how you're taking your chips and you're walking away and refusing to participate.

414
00:43:48,510 --> 00:43:52,870
I think Bitcoin music is not about Bitcoin.

415
00:43:53,150 --> 00:43:55,470
I don't think Bitcoin art is about Bitcoin.

416
00:43:55,670 --> 00:43:59,770
I think it's about beauty and it's about love and it's about hope.

417
00:43:59,990 --> 00:44:07,390
And it's about representing those things in as true and honest a fashion as you are able

418
00:44:07,390 --> 00:44:16,750
without being influenced, without trying to conform to some existing ideology.

419
00:44:17,110 --> 00:44:21,850
You brought up, it's a very good point, you brought up that the propaganda that we see

420
00:44:21,850 --> 00:44:24,650
in these superhero movies is not new.

421
00:44:24,650 --> 00:44:30,230
And one of my favorite examples of that, I think it was in the 30s, there was a guy who

422
00:44:30,230 --> 00:44:33,570
infiltrated the Ku Klux Klan and got to a fairly high level.

423
00:44:33,570 --> 00:44:40,250
And he learned all of their secret code words, which are they're hilarious because they all start with K.

424
00:44:40,490 --> 00:44:52,450
You know, it's like the they just took the regular word, you know, and they put a K in front of it like super, you know, it sounds it sounds utterly ridiculous when you hear it out loud.

425
00:44:52,850 --> 00:44:58,250
And he knew that. And he was like, well, how can I how can I exploit this?

426
00:44:58,250 --> 00:45:08,490
And what they did was they contacted the writers of, I think it was the Superman radio show, which was like one of the biggest radio shows in the world at the time.

427
00:45:09,050 --> 00:45:10,650
And they just gave it all to him.

428
00:45:10,710 --> 00:45:12,370
They're like, yeah, you can write this into the script.

429
00:45:12,730 --> 00:45:19,590
And so, you know, Sunday night, everybody gathers around their wooden radio in their home and they tune into the Superman show.

430
00:45:19,590 --> 00:45:27,190
Yeah. And what they hear is Superman beating up KKK people and using the hilarity of their own

431
00:45:27,190 --> 00:45:33,670
words against them. And this is this is an example of one of my core beliefs about free speech,

432
00:45:33,710 --> 00:45:41,310
which is that all speech has to be allowed because when we allow that speech, then we allow those

433
00:45:41,310 --> 00:45:47,830
ideas to have sunlight and bad ideas die in sunlight. Bad ideas die when they're seen by

434
00:45:47,830 --> 00:45:54,850
people and they can recognize them for the absurdity that they have. Bad ideas grow in

435
00:45:54,850 --> 00:46:03,550
darkness. They flourish and they manifest violence when they're put in the dark and hidden away.

436
00:46:04,910 --> 00:46:08,330
And so, you know, this has always been one of my one of the things that I would say is like,

437
00:46:08,410 --> 00:46:13,930
I would I would give the Nazis a half hour television show on public broadcasting and

438
00:46:13,930 --> 00:46:20,430
just be like, go for it. Like, promote this, promote this idiocy, you know, and, and, and the

439
00:46:20,430 --> 00:46:25,030
woke and everybody else like, go ahead. Like, let's put it all into the open. Let's all hear

440
00:46:25,030 --> 00:46:31,970
what's being said. And, and then let's see who wins out in the end, because then what happens is

441
00:46:31,970 --> 00:46:39,130
you only get the people who are mentally ill, basically, that align with those philosophies,

442
00:46:39,130 --> 00:46:45,250
because they're the ones who can't see through the can't see through the faults of it.

443
00:46:45,470 --> 00:46:50,710
But rational, logical people, when they're presented with these ideas, they go, well, that's that's ridiculous.

444
00:46:50,710 --> 00:47:03,690
Like, I know Jerry and Jerry's black and Jerry's human and he's a person with a soul and he's got he's got a life and he's got a wife and he's got all these things that I have.

445
00:47:04,250 --> 00:47:05,370
He's no different than me.

446
00:47:05,370 --> 00:47:20,010
Whereas if you're doing this all on underground message boards and meeting in the dark of night, then it's very easy to be you're in that echo chamber and everything that you say just reverberates back and it makes sense.

447
00:47:20,010 --> 00:47:27,370
So I completely support the idea of allowing these ideologies to be put in the forefront.

448
00:47:27,690 --> 00:47:37,130
I think it's fascinating that Millay has been able to truly infiltrate the system based on the things that he says.

449
00:47:37,250 --> 00:47:43,210
One of my favorite clips from Millay is him describing to a reporter how taxation is theft.

450
00:47:43,210 --> 00:47:48,190
And he says, look, a guy shows up at your door and he says, give me 10 percent of your money.

451
00:47:48,190 --> 00:47:52,270
And you say no. And he leaves and he comes back and he says, give me 10 percent of your money.

452
00:47:52,390 --> 00:47:55,970
Here's a here's a law. And I signed it. And you say no.

453
00:47:56,190 --> 00:47:59,170
And then he comes back a third time and he says, give me 10 percent of your money.

454
00:47:59,250 --> 00:48:01,450
Here's a law. I signed it. And here's a guy with a gun.

455
00:48:01,450 --> 00:48:17,890
Yeah. And at that point, then you capitulate. And that is the the the smallest and most contained way to describe how governments or how how fiat government control money is is promoted through violence.

456
00:48:17,890 --> 00:48:22,790
That brings me to the next question I want to ask you because this is kind of posed by this article.

457
00:48:23,270 --> 00:48:28,030
I mean you know that Malay says that, but now Malay is the guy holding the gun pointing at the people.

458
00:48:28,270 --> 00:48:30,750
He hasn't ended taxation in Argentina, right?

459
00:48:30,870 --> 00:48:37,150
I mean he's still – if he actually believes that taxation is violence, then he is the one now doing violence, overseeing the violence.

460
00:48:37,790 --> 00:48:42,490
I mean one can say like that's necessary, that like there needs to be a smooth transition or whatever.

461
00:48:42,490 --> 00:48:46,850
But that's why you get critiques from people like Amos who are more principled and pure.

462
00:48:47,510 --> 00:48:49,170
Not saying that's a good or a bad thing.

463
00:48:49,350 --> 00:48:53,250
You know, pragmatically, what we've been talking about, people like Chris Rufo, Augustin

464
00:48:53,250 --> 00:48:58,490
Lachey are all about, you know, kind of compromised coalition building, practically winning at

465
00:48:58,490 --> 00:48:59,890
politics rather than purity.

466
00:49:00,250 --> 00:49:01,930
And so here's the question, though.

467
00:49:01,970 --> 00:49:03,390
Here's kind of from the article.

468
00:49:03,530 --> 00:49:06,370
I wanted to get some more of this context out, too, because I thought it was very interesting.

469
00:49:07,030 --> 00:49:10,990
Frederick Hayek, Austrian theorist, thinks that thought that the state should relinquish

470
00:49:10,990 --> 00:49:16,750
monopoly on the money on its own voluntarily so that's essentially what malay is trying to do

471
00:49:16,750 --> 00:49:20,590
saying i'm gonna take over let's take over the state libertarians and let's have the state

472
00:49:20,590 --> 00:49:26,890
voluntarily relinquish control ushi nakamoto the pseudonymous creator of bitcoin thought that that

473
00:49:26,890 --> 00:49:30,950
was not realistic governments essentially the principle of bitcoin is that governments are not

474
00:49:30,950 --> 00:49:35,410
going to voluntarily limit their own power it's gonna have to happen through the bottom up like

475
00:49:35,410 --> 00:49:40,970
cypherpunks cypherpunks write code they do things satoshi the article says was influenced by

476
00:49:40,970 --> 00:49:45,830
agorism, agorism. I don't know where you put the emphasis there. The agora, this Greek word for

477
00:49:45,830 --> 00:49:52,150
the marketplace. So the agora takes agora, the name of the market for the movement rather than

478
00:49:52,150 --> 00:49:58,050
like some political party or something like that. So it's people who say we're going to win by

479
00:49:58,050 --> 00:50:02,890
affiliating and acting through the market through free choices, not by joining political parties.

480
00:50:03,130 --> 00:50:08,070
Bebchuk argues that Bitcoin is kind of the anti-party agorist in that it is, quote,

481
00:50:08,070 --> 00:50:14,510
the rejection of the state and partisan political action in favor of an approach that bolsters a

482
00:50:14,510 --> 00:50:20,550
self-organized emergent market and social order. Bottom up is effective when trusting government

483
00:50:20,550 --> 00:50:27,090
is shit, as currently evidently is the case in some places, in many places. Malay then is what

484
00:50:27,090 --> 00:50:33,150
an agorist theorist calls partyarchy, trying to implement ideas, policies through the state

485
00:50:33,150 --> 00:50:37,570
apparatus, whereas the agorist just tries purely through like the marketplace.

486
00:50:37,890 --> 00:50:39,050
I mean, where do you come down on that?

487
00:50:39,110 --> 00:50:44,370
Like, practically speaking, do we have to get involved in politics and win at politics,

488
00:50:44,810 --> 00:50:50,790
maybe adopting, finding cultural hegemony in politics in like the Chris Ruffo or Augustin

489
00:50:50,790 --> 00:50:51,510
LaHaye mold?

490
00:50:51,510 --> 00:50:57,210
Or, you know, does victory look different and does it occur through the marketplace outside

491
00:50:57,210 --> 00:51:02,490
the state apparatus, not acting within the state, but wresting power from the state through

492
00:51:02,490 --> 00:51:02,950
the market?

493
00:51:03,150 --> 00:51:16,310
This is the interesting kind of dichotomy of how change happens is I believe that you have to have the culture call out what is needed, but then the builders have to build it, whatever it is.

494
00:51:16,770 --> 00:51:25,330
Change, if you look throughout history, change does not really occur without a tool that allows it to change.

495
00:51:25,510 --> 00:51:31,790
The printing press, which allowed for democratization of information, and the Internet, which allowed for free information.

496
00:51:31,790 --> 00:51:54,890
These these are tools that achieved ideals that were wanted by the culture that were being called for by the culture. But you can't just wish it into existence. Someone does have to build it. And so I don't think that there's I think that the two are inextricably linked. I think that the culture calls out what is needed and the builders build it. And that's what leads to change.

497
00:51:54,890 --> 00:52:05,790
I agree. It's really it puts you in an interesting situation as someone who is cheering for humanity, who's cheering for Bitcoin, who's cheering for better.

498
00:52:05,790 --> 00:52:21,890
When you see declarations by controlling bodies, by governments and by corporations that say that they are adopting these ideals that are being called for ground up by the people, because in a way you don't want them there.

499
00:52:22,090 --> 00:52:23,490
You don't want them to be involved.

500
00:52:23,810 --> 00:52:26,150
You want it to be truly ground up.

501
00:52:26,410 --> 00:52:31,150
Practically speaking, as the direction of your question asked, is that you can't avoid that.

502
00:52:31,150 --> 00:52:44,930
Practically speaking, if it's beneficial to me and it's beneficial to you and we believe that Bitcoin is beneficial to everyone who adopts it because it saves them from being involved in the fiat system.

503
00:52:45,130 --> 00:52:53,090
It's actually also beneficial to the actors that are within that system as well in order to proliferate and hold on to power.

504
00:52:53,090 --> 00:52:53,450
Yeah.

505
00:52:53,450 --> 00:52:56,970
So, yeah, it's like a good song, man.

506
00:52:57,190 --> 00:53:04,890
Like, I love a good song, and it doesn't bother me that someone I don't like also loves that good song.

507
00:53:05,150 --> 00:53:05,430
Yeah.

508
00:53:05,590 --> 00:53:19,630
You know, we both recognize that it's beautiful and it's music and we love it, but it would be untrue to who you are as a person if part of your requirement for loving something beautiful was that someone else could not.

509
00:53:20,630 --> 00:53:21,150
Yeah.

510
00:53:21,150 --> 00:53:24,150
And you would exclude them from that opportunity.

511
00:53:24,150 --> 00:53:26,990
Yeah, I know Bitcoin's enemies are its biggest friend, definitely.

512
00:53:27,310 --> 00:53:33,250
You know, when you have a protocol to which adding hash power to the network and attempt to attack it only makes it stronger.

513
00:53:33,990 --> 00:53:40,870
And I presented the question to you in that annoying way where I'm like, either or, is it through the state or is it aside from the state?

514
00:53:40,950 --> 00:53:42,090
And it's obviously like both.

515
00:53:42,210 --> 00:53:49,130
I mean, the author of the article says, quote, perhaps both direct and institutional political action contribute toward enduring change.

516
00:53:49,130 --> 00:53:54,990
So purists on either side, both people who say the state is necessary and those who say the state is unnecessary.

517
00:53:55,370 --> 00:53:58,670
I tend to disagree with both of those. It's like, no, we're in the real world.

518
00:53:58,810 --> 00:54:01,290
The state is a thing. We have it. You have to work through it.

519
00:54:01,450 --> 00:54:05,050
You know, it's just it's just like realistically, that's the way that things work.

520
00:54:05,050 --> 00:54:09,530
And like I was at the Kansas City Bitcoin Summit a couple of weeks ago.

521
00:54:09,750 --> 00:54:26,730
And one of the cool aspects of that was seeing a couple of people who were had C6, like nonprofit organizations that were formed to lobby their respective state legislatures and educate their legislators on Bitcoin.

522
00:54:26,730 --> 00:54:35,750
So you have like this grassroots, I mean, these are people doing it on their own outside the state apparatus, but they're working together, self-organizing to influence the state.

523
00:54:35,990 --> 00:54:42,310
Like that's another organic part of Bitcoin's adoption is people on a grassroots level, educating themselves, educating their legislators.

524
00:54:42,710 --> 00:54:43,970
And so, yeah, it's going to be both.

525
00:54:44,130 --> 00:54:47,930
So I gave you a dumb question, but those dumb questions can at least polarize this guy.

526
00:54:48,290 --> 00:54:51,590
So that's why I threw it to you in a kind of either or binary manner.

527
00:54:52,410 --> 00:54:57,570
Well, it's a great question because I actually had this, I actually had a very similar thought

528
00:54:57,570 --> 00:55:03,050
last night. So last night I was, I was up and I was playing guitar and I was listening to music

529
00:55:03,050 --> 00:55:09,630
and I was like, I want to discover some new music. And so I went on YouTube and I found a song that

530
00:55:09,630 --> 00:55:15,110
I liked and then I let the algorithm start suggesting songs and I just kept adding them

531
00:55:15,110 --> 00:55:20,990
to the queue. And if I liked them, then I would go into Spotify and I would add that song to my

532
00:55:20,990 --> 00:55:28,170
playlist. And I was, I actually, I had a, I had a moment of pause because there was three songs in

533
00:55:28,170 --> 00:55:32,230
a row that I was like, oh, I really liked these. These are good. You know, this is cool. This is

534
00:55:32,230 --> 00:55:37,630
new to me. This is awesome. And then I go and I look at them on Spotify and I see that the artist

535
00:55:37,630 --> 00:55:45,050
who I've never heard of, the artist has like 20 million listens or 80 million listens or 126

536
00:55:45,050 --> 00:55:50,110
million listens on this song. And there was part of me that just felt, oh, that's kind of gross.

537
00:55:50,110 --> 00:55:53,150
Like other people know about this, you know, I'm not discovering it.

538
00:55:53,370 --> 00:55:56,470
And then I paused and I was like, well, what's what the hell is wrong with like, why?

539
00:55:56,690 --> 00:56:01,290
Why should I care if other people have already discovered this before me?

540
00:56:01,370 --> 00:56:03,830
Why should I care if this thing is popular?

541
00:56:03,830 --> 00:56:08,670
One of the things I've always said about, like, you know, people trash pop music.

542
00:56:09,070 --> 00:56:13,770
But literally the definition of pop music is that it's popular, like people like it.

543
00:56:14,130 --> 00:56:14,230
Yeah.

544
00:56:14,570 --> 00:56:16,350
And so it has appeal.

545
00:56:16,530 --> 00:56:16,810
Yeah.

546
00:56:16,810 --> 00:56:21,150
And things that have appeal are generally likable.

547
00:56:21,350 --> 00:56:21,450
Yeah.

548
00:56:21,650 --> 00:56:24,850
And that's a point I was just thinking as we were talking.

549
00:56:24,970 --> 00:56:26,870
I wanted to – like that's such a great point.

550
00:56:27,150 --> 00:56:37,510
And I want to contextualize earlier like our discussion about Bitcoin and art that like – I don't want to disparage the attempts that people are making to create popular Bitcoin art.

551
00:56:37,650 --> 00:56:39,530
Like pop art is a genre of art.

552
00:56:39,530 --> 00:56:44,730
And people, they do take like Bitcoin's iconography and orange B and they make something like,

553
00:56:45,090 --> 00:56:48,910
you know, very interesting and popular and something you can wear on a shirt, something

554
00:56:48,910 --> 00:56:50,550
you can get some merchandise, put a sticker.

555
00:56:50,970 --> 00:56:51,710
And that's fantastic.

556
00:56:51,710 --> 00:56:52,690
And that's necessary.

557
00:56:52,970 --> 00:56:57,490
Like there's like capital A art, which is like timeless, you know, like the Iliad or

558
00:56:57,490 --> 00:56:57,850
something.

559
00:56:57,970 --> 00:57:09,995
And then there pop art which is a fantastic genre And both of those are needed And so you know when I say that like a lot of like bitcoin related art is not like that capital a art a lot of it is really excellent

560
00:57:09,995 --> 00:57:16,195
and getting people to like have something to affiliate together with like a t-shirt they can

561
00:57:16,195 --> 00:57:20,775
wear a sticker they can put on their laptop and is is awesome pop art i just love some of the visual

562
00:57:20,775 --> 00:57:25,415
representations i don't know how i'd characterize the satoshi statue that is the different like you

563
00:57:25,415 --> 00:57:28,155
know the one that looks invisible kind of you look at it for certain angles and whatnot

564
00:57:28,155 --> 00:57:32,595
that kind of goes between the two frames of like is it maybe great art it may be popular

565
00:57:32,595 --> 00:57:39,195
representation um but they're both needed in both forms both for like winning like this war of

566
00:57:39,195 --> 00:57:45,755
cultural hegemony but also just like it's enjoyable as you know pop music is good pop art is also like

567
00:57:45,755 --> 00:57:53,035
you know it's great yeah you know the supreme court ruling on on what pornography is is you

568
00:57:53,035 --> 00:57:57,775
know it's like you you know it when you see it and beauty is the same way you don't really have

569
00:57:57,775 --> 00:58:02,195
a definition for it other than that you're drawn to it when you see it, just like you're

570
00:58:02,195 --> 00:58:06,135
repulsed when you see something ugly.

571
00:58:06,455 --> 00:58:12,395
So yeah, we are seeing a resurgence of beauty.

572
00:58:12,735 --> 00:58:14,375
We're seeing a resurgence of art.

573
00:58:14,735 --> 00:58:20,795
There is really a renaissance feeling to what we're seeing in the artistic community in

574
00:58:20,795 --> 00:58:28,835
all aspects, in long form content, in books, in plays, in movies, in music, in media, in

575
00:58:28,835 --> 00:58:30,935
memes, in pop art, everything.

576
00:58:30,935 --> 00:58:31,375
Yeah.

577
00:58:32,075 --> 00:58:34,135
It is a beautiful movement.

578
00:58:34,695 --> 00:58:37,655
And we know it's beautiful because it looks beautiful.

579
00:58:37,795 --> 00:58:41,775
Like you look at it and you see something that does kind of move you.

580
00:58:41,875 --> 00:58:47,775
I look at that statue of Satoshi and I see, you know, this dogged, tireless perseverance

581
00:58:47,775 --> 00:58:55,055
of, you know, a 40-year struggle to create something that would free people from state

582
00:58:55,055 --> 00:58:55,515
control.

583
00:58:55,515 --> 00:58:56,035
Yeah.

584
00:58:56,935 --> 00:59:03,595
And the application of high-level mathematics in order to achieve that, it is.

585
00:59:03,675 --> 00:59:04,375
It's quite beautiful.

586
00:59:04,555 --> 00:59:06,595
You know, math is beautiful as well.

587
00:59:06,735 --> 00:59:07,415
Yeah, no, for sure.

588
00:59:07,955 --> 00:59:08,075
Yeah.

589
00:59:08,075 --> 00:59:16,815
When you see geometric shapes and you observe these things about the understanding of zero

590
00:59:16,815 --> 00:59:18,795
and the understanding of infinity

591
00:59:18,795 --> 00:59:21,875
and how there are infinities within infinities,

592
00:59:22,315 --> 00:59:25,715
yet beautiful concept that allows you to stare deep into it,

593
00:59:25,775 --> 00:59:28,535
just like the first time I ever visited the Grand Canyon.

594
00:59:28,695 --> 00:59:30,855
I sat on the edge and for three hours,

595
00:59:30,855 --> 00:59:32,655
I just stared into the Grand Canyon.

596
00:59:32,795 --> 00:59:34,715
And the more I looked, the more was revealed.

597
00:59:35,715 --> 00:59:39,355
And I feel that way about looking at Bitcoin

598
00:59:39,355 --> 00:59:42,275
and about looking at the second, third, tenth,

599
00:59:42,455 --> 00:59:44,575
twentieth order effects of what occurs

600
00:59:44,575 --> 00:59:46,715
when it comes downstream into society and culture.

601
00:59:46,815 --> 00:59:59,955
Yeah, no, and I kind of like I'm going to give I want to give like a I wanted to be so I'm going to give a preliminary kind of brushstrokes version of a taxonomy categorization, the different types of Bitcoin art that there are and could be.

602
00:59:59,955 --> 01:00:06,455
And Lucas, while I'm giving this, I wonder if you could like on Twitter, pull up and show that the Hashthetics Twitter account.

603
01:00:06,635 --> 01:00:11,455
So it's H-A-S-H-T-H-E-T-I-C-S Hashthetic.

604
01:00:11,455 --> 01:00:18,495
So Hash-aesthetics, again, there's these types of aesthetics account to try to curate and create a visual representation of an abstract phenomena.

605
01:00:18,755 --> 01:00:21,415
This is what Lucas was talking about.

606
01:00:21,595 --> 01:00:27,575
When math has its own beauty, there is an ideal form that it represents that people can then find in nature.

607
01:00:27,935 --> 01:00:29,375
And this is kind of what Hash-aesthetics does.

608
01:00:29,535 --> 01:00:38,015
As far as like Bitcoin popular art, there's an artist here in Kansas City, Shan, I think it's BitcoinBurnBabe underscore is her Twitter handle.

609
01:00:38,015 --> 01:00:48,355
She did the art for the Casey Bitcoin Summit, and it's got like somebody who's wearing kind of cyberpunk-type goggles that are Bitcoin bees and their face is melting.

610
01:00:48,515 --> 01:00:57,975
So it kind of mixes like the face-melting price meme with a really great pop art image that you could see spray-painted on a wall or on a T-shirt.

611
01:00:57,975 --> 01:01:03,295
And then there's like there's essays like Der Gigi, Bitcoin is time.

612
01:01:03,435 --> 01:01:14,435
And you read that and you feel that like the discussion of time in relation to Bitcoin is pulling you in sort of a contemplation of the beauty of time and then the contemplation of the beauty of Bitcoin.

613
01:01:15,115 --> 01:01:18,175
To get talked about the Kansas City Bitcoin Summit again, which is excellent.

614
01:01:18,175 --> 01:01:24,915
Brady Swenson, the co-founder of Swan, also gave a talk about Bitcoin and time.

615
01:01:25,395 --> 01:01:28,955
And it had a very powerful aesthetic pull to it.

616
01:01:28,995 --> 01:01:34,675
Just the way that he talked about Bitcoin and talked about time, you felt a sense of the beauty lurking behind that.

617
01:01:35,035 --> 01:01:36,415
James Polis is another person.

618
01:01:36,535 --> 01:01:39,875
I was looking earlier to see the title of his book, Human Forever.

619
01:01:41,115 --> 01:01:42,535
I haven't finished yet.

620
01:01:42,715 --> 01:01:43,515
I'm into it.

621
01:01:43,935 --> 01:01:46,495
It's not really about Bitcoin, but it's about Bitcoin.

622
01:01:46,495 --> 01:01:48,755
and it's a very beautiful book.

623
01:01:49,495 --> 01:01:51,115
So there's a lot of different ways

624
01:01:51,115 --> 01:01:52,975
that art and Bitcoin can interact

625
01:01:52,975 --> 01:01:55,815
and that cultural hegemony can be established

626
01:01:55,815 --> 01:01:56,895
for something like Bitcoin.

627
01:01:57,595 --> 01:01:59,075
That's, what do we got there, Lucas?

628
01:01:59,195 --> 01:02:00,255
We got Hashnetics.

629
01:02:01,015 --> 01:02:03,255
Scroll up or down, kind of looking at...

630
01:02:04,715 --> 01:02:06,035
I'm trying to find the turtle.

631
01:02:06,635 --> 01:02:08,975
I'm trying to find the turtle you were talking about.

632
01:02:09,435 --> 01:02:12,875
The internet's being, I can barely hear you.

633
01:02:12,975 --> 01:02:13,955
It's like breaking up.

634
01:02:14,015 --> 01:02:15,435
Maybe it's not good to have that up.

635
01:02:16,495 --> 01:02:17,875
I don't know if we have bandwidth for it.

636
01:02:18,595 --> 01:02:19,015
Stop sharing.

637
01:02:19,135 --> 01:02:19,875
Yeah, that's probably true.

638
01:02:19,955 --> 01:02:21,515
I can try to drop it in later.

639
01:02:22,055 --> 01:02:23,175
Try to find the turtle.

640
01:02:23,515 --> 01:02:38,515
Yeah, but even what I saw there, like taking a computer chip and then showing that there's a beauty that just like when you reflect on it as an object, you begin to look at it differently, not for its function, but for the way that, you know, it just has a form.

641
01:02:38,635 --> 01:02:39,215
And that's beautiful.

642
01:02:39,215 --> 01:02:57,575
Yeah, I think that the idea that when you make something, if you make it useful, it will be beautiful by default. I think that that's very true. I see that when I'm when I'm on the farm, like the tools that my dad has that are, you know, designed for a specific purpose.

643
01:02:57,575 --> 01:03:03,555
there's such a beauty to the way that these things are designed and the simplicity of them.

644
01:03:03,555 --> 01:03:09,955
When something is designed to be useful and to do a job perfectly every time, then there is an

645
01:03:09,955 --> 01:03:15,815
aesthetic beauty to that, that you can see just by, and you can hold it. You can look at it and

646
01:03:15,815 --> 01:03:22,355
you can think about how it's used and where the torque is applied and how it uses leverage. And

647
01:03:22,355 --> 01:03:25,375
And it is infinitely beautiful to me.

648
01:03:25,535 --> 01:03:28,695
I completely agree with your assessment there on that.

649
01:03:29,695 --> 01:03:32,075
There's a guy at the network school.

650
01:03:32,755 --> 01:03:34,095
His name is Gordon Berger.

651
01:03:34,355 --> 01:03:38,495
And he's one of the world's foremost Bitcoin artists.

652
01:03:38,495 --> 01:03:42,435
He may actually be the guy.

653
01:03:42,895 --> 01:03:47,555
And yeah, the art that he creates is not something that maybe you would expect.

654
01:03:47,675 --> 01:03:49,335
It's not like a painting or whatever.

655
01:03:49,335 --> 01:03:56,415
it's, you know, oftentimes it's a visualization of the blockchain or it's a visualization of

656
01:03:56,415 --> 01:03:56,995
hashing.

657
01:03:58,755 --> 01:04:05,195
That when you're able to see it modeled in a three-dimensional animated model, you see

658
01:04:05,195 --> 01:04:06,395
how beautiful it is.

659
01:04:06,535 --> 01:04:10,675
And then you think about, you know, if you've ever seen a breakdown of how the U.S. dollar

660
01:04:10,675 --> 01:04:14,875
works, it is just the most hideous, ugly looking diagram.

661
01:04:15,175 --> 01:04:15,875
Such a great point.

662
01:04:15,875 --> 01:04:24,235
Yeah, you know, you can see the usefulness in something by observing the beauty and vice versa.

663
01:04:24,235 --> 01:04:44,395
Yeah, no, that's such an excellent point. I mean, fiat is a political process of sausage making and it's viscerally ugly, whereas Bitcoin is math autonomously operating and creating its own, you know, creating a new reality and visualizations of that very powerfully aesthetic if done right.

664
01:04:44,395 --> 01:04:47,535
And definitely an area that also helps in understanding.

665
01:04:48,015 --> 01:04:59,475
Like when you can, it's, you know, difficult to talk about what it means for there to be like this lottery to win Bitcoin by solving, you know, a math problem.

666
01:04:59,935 --> 01:05:00,755
What does that all mean?

667
01:05:00,755 --> 01:05:01,935
Like this hashing process.

668
01:05:02,355 --> 01:05:06,535
But if you can, if an artist can visualize that, you can make very practical diagrams.

669
01:05:06,535 --> 01:05:19,695
You can also make diagrams that show you how this is the pattern, you know, in a spiraling flower, you know, how it is clouds, how it is all these other natural phenomena that are also mathematical processes.

670
01:05:20,115 --> 01:05:22,595
So, yeah, I think that's just such an excellent point.

671
01:05:22,775 --> 01:05:26,675
The ugliness of fiat versus the inherent beauty of Bitcoin and mathematical processes.

672
01:05:26,975 --> 01:05:31,755
Unless you had some more on that, there's one other point I kind of wanted to get your thoughts on and maybe an ending point, too.

673
01:05:31,755 --> 01:05:35,595
So I was talking about the pendulum in Argentinian politics.

674
01:05:35,595 --> 01:05:41,995
I don't know if it's Argentine or Argentinian in any case, like the pendulum between like expansionist and neoclassical models or whatever.

675
01:05:42,235 --> 01:05:51,275
The artist or the author says that like Malay benefited in his rise to power from a pendulum swing toward the politics that he is putting forward.

676
01:05:51,475 --> 01:05:53,415
But his political project is long term.

677
01:05:53,595 --> 01:05:55,435
Like it can't be a pendulum swing.

678
01:05:55,515 --> 01:05:58,715
Like if it goes back, somebody just dismantles, goes back to the way things were.

679
01:05:58,715 --> 01:06:05,295
You can't abolish the central bank, assuming Malay might actually do that, and then just have the pendulum swing back and it get reestablished.

680
01:06:05,295 --> 01:06:11,235
right, that does no good and in fact may do worse than good. So what do you think about the potential

681
01:06:11,235 --> 01:06:19,875
long-term possibility of Malay, Malay's policies sticking, something really great coming of that?

682
01:06:20,375 --> 01:06:24,455
For a project that requires such sustained governance, is this going to be possible?

683
01:06:24,595 --> 01:06:27,235
What comes of the Argentinian project, Malay's project here?

684
01:06:27,555 --> 01:06:33,055
I think there's nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come. And it appears that the ideas

685
01:06:33,055 --> 01:06:40,455
of Millet and the people that support him that it was, as you say, it's not a coincidence that

686
01:06:40,455 --> 01:06:46,795
it aligned with the swing of the pendulum that allowed for people to be receptive of the idea.

687
01:06:47,395 --> 01:06:52,975
One of the things that you talked about that's mentioned in the essay is that in order for

688
01:06:52,975 --> 01:06:59,315
Millet to get to the place he is now, compromises had to be made. There were people who were

689
01:06:59,315 --> 01:07:05,315
intimately involved in this movement that were somewhat pushed to the side in order to clear the

690
01:07:05,315 --> 01:07:13,915
way and to refine and make compromises in order to consolidate support and build coalition um and

691
01:07:13,915 --> 01:07:20,215
and this again goes back to the question you asked about culture and kind of building and technology

692
01:07:20,215 --> 01:07:29,215
the either or and again they are inextricably linked is a there's a potential attack surface

693
01:07:29,215 --> 01:07:36,435
for critique in compromise because you do give up some of your ideals. But in order for change to be

694
01:07:36,435 --> 01:07:43,015
made, compromise is essential because not everyone can agree on everything. But if you can agree on

695
01:07:43,015 --> 01:07:48,615
the big things, then you can let the other things be, I guess, hashed out in everyday life. So,

696
01:07:48,975 --> 01:07:54,235
you know, I was at the network school, which is full of all these people that are moving across

697
01:07:54,235 --> 01:07:59,695
the world in order to be in a place where they feel free to build. And I think that's a perfect

698
01:07:59,695 --> 01:08:05,855
example of what happens when you don't engage. Yes, there are going to be movements towards that

699
01:08:05,855 --> 01:08:10,995
area. But the only reason that there is a movement towards that area is that those people were not

700
01:08:10,995 --> 01:08:16,035
able to build consolidation and they weren't able to build support and coalition for their ideas

701
01:08:16,035 --> 01:08:23,455
in a way that resonated with the larger community. Yeah. So, you know, they're part and parcel.

702
01:08:23,455 --> 01:08:37,135
They move together and you can't just focus on culture, but you also can't just build because the idea has to be within the culture in order to gain ground and gain support, to gain attention and to gain scale.

703
01:08:37,135 --> 01:09:03,435
And also within the culture, the tool has to exist in order to gain ground and gain support and gain scale. And so, you know, they're inextricably linked. And the approach of Millay and the political machine behind him that has allowed him to move in is interesting because as we've noted throughout this essay, there are things that he promised.

704
01:09:03,435 --> 01:09:07,935
There are ideals that he had that are not currently being followed through on.

705
01:09:08,235 --> 01:09:12,055
And so is that just a form of compromise again?

706
01:09:12,355 --> 01:09:16,335
Or is that fighting against a machine that's too big to beat?

707
01:09:16,495 --> 01:09:25,215
Or is that just part of a longer play and a larger game at foot that could bring us to change?

708
01:09:25,215 --> 01:09:42,495
So, again, I think we zoom out and we were focusing on Argentina, but we're trying to zoom out and look at the world as a moment in time. And we're seeing populist presidents and populist leaders rise to power. We're seeing political violence rise.

709
01:09:42,495 --> 01:09:55,055
And, you know, I just I just feel like it's very important for people to take note of what the larger picture is, is that there is a there's a large scale desire for change.

710
01:09:55,255 --> 01:09:58,715
And that change is not immediately manifested.

711
01:09:58,715 --> 01:10:06,055
But I believe that because of the tools that were created from the demands of the culture, that that change is inevitable.

712
01:10:06,475 --> 01:10:10,955
Nothing will stop the train, that it will continue to move in the direction of freedom.

713
01:10:10,955 --> 01:10:13,995
It will continue to move in the direction of free speech.

714
01:10:13,995 --> 01:10:17,775
It will continue to move in the direction of personal liberty.

715
01:10:19,095 --> 01:10:20,615
Yeah, I think we move.

716
01:10:20,955 --> 01:10:32,615
One thing I want to just a thing that I saw in the essay that I thought was a cool thing, because I did not know this before, was the concept of when he talked about earlier banking practices.

717
01:10:32,615 --> 01:10:34,975
This is completely out of left field, by the way.

718
01:10:35,095 --> 01:10:40,875
But the first like the first like loans were called like closed bag loans.

719
01:10:40,955 --> 01:10:48,375
Where you would like, I would give you my dollar and I could like write on it, this is Lucas's dollar and it would go into a closed bag.

720
01:10:48,375 --> 01:10:54,795
And when I came to get that back, I would actually get my own money, literally my own money.

721
01:10:54,895 --> 01:11:02,675
And then move to the open bag system where it's like, hey, you're going to get equivalent money, but you're not necessarily going to get your money.

722
01:11:02,815 --> 01:11:05,975
And then they move to more of the fractional reserve.

723
01:11:06,515 --> 01:11:06,915
No bag.

724
01:11:07,095 --> 01:11:07,935
Yeah, no, exactly.

725
01:11:08,315 --> 01:11:10,035
That's actually what I wrote in my notes.

726
01:11:10,315 --> 01:11:10,515
Yeah.

727
01:11:10,515 --> 01:11:16,635
no bag so yeah um yeah that was cool and then the i just want to say i had that in my summary and

728
01:11:16,635 --> 01:11:19,615
then i took it out as like as i was going through it's like i don't want to get too much in the

729
01:11:19,615 --> 01:11:25,375
weeds but like that yeah moving from i glossed it over as banknotes develop through a process

730
01:11:25,375 --> 01:11:30,675
of increasing abstraction to where there's no deposit required but you flesh it out and give

731
01:11:30,675 --> 01:11:36,575
it some nice color and that's from the essay the open bag to to close back to close bag or so close

732
01:11:36,575 --> 01:11:41,375
bag, open bag, no bag, like the process of abstraction of banknotes coming to represent

733
01:11:41,375 --> 01:11:41,795
nothing.

734
01:11:42,135 --> 01:11:42,155
Yeah.

735
01:11:42,475 --> 01:11:42,675
Yeah.

736
01:11:42,735 --> 01:11:47,795
And the envelope money was cool where it would be like it would be an envelope and inside

737
01:11:47,795 --> 01:11:50,455
the envelope would be the coins and you would seal the envelope.

738
01:11:50,575 --> 01:11:56,215
And on the outside, you would be like, this is two cows or this is, you know, this is

739
01:11:56,215 --> 01:11:57,975
one bushel of wheat.

740
01:11:58,275 --> 01:12:03,615
And it represented that thing that you were exchanging it for the, you know, this was

741
01:12:03,615 --> 01:12:09,875
this was the precursor to, you know, paper money, which, yeah, it's fascinating to learn these

742
01:12:09,875 --> 01:12:17,055
things because it provides an understanding of the logical steps in to how we got to where we are.

743
01:12:17,255 --> 01:12:17,395
Yeah.

744
01:12:17,975 --> 01:12:23,095
That we had this money. And then, of course, the harder the money is, the heavier the money is.

745
01:12:23,155 --> 01:12:26,775
And the heavier the money is, the less useful it is in everyday life. And so it's

746
01:12:26,775 --> 01:12:33,075
natural that we have this abstraction that allows us to transact faster and easier

747
01:12:33,075 --> 01:12:36,575
and that abstraction is the fiat system.

748
01:12:36,795 --> 01:12:41,435
And so it's just, again, I like to frame this in terms of it's not evil, the system.

749
01:12:41,435 --> 01:12:45,695
It is the logical outcome of what we were dealing with.

750
01:12:46,175 --> 01:12:50,755
And of course, there is a logical outcome beyond that.

751
01:12:50,915 --> 01:12:57,455
And it appears to be that that logical outcome is the adoption of Bitcoin as money over fiat money.

752
01:12:57,835 --> 01:12:59,235
Yeah, no, I totally agree.

753
01:12:59,235 --> 01:13:05,055
this essay has a lot of interesting color, has a lot of interesting points that we have to leave

754
01:13:05,055 --> 01:13:09,195
out because we can't get to anything. So I encourage everyone to take a look at it. And

755
01:13:09,195 --> 01:13:12,615
the things that you mentioned as far as the history of money, truly fascinating.

756
01:13:13,155 --> 01:13:18,075
As I noted earlier, man, we see these a lot, like broken money has a narrative about

757
01:13:18,075 --> 01:13:22,875
the development of money. All these, not all of them, a lot of Bitcoiners give an account of how

758
01:13:22,875 --> 01:13:28,915
money developed. And it's really interesting what particular points each one puts emphasis on,

759
01:13:28,915 --> 01:13:42,755
Because while they broadly tell the same story about the emergence of fiat, there's a lot of things you can highlight to pull out new details and make a new interesting point about what Bitcoin is and how our current fiat system operates.

760
01:13:43,035 --> 01:13:46,755
So, yeah, I would encourage readers to read this.

761
01:13:46,855 --> 01:13:47,635
Don't gloss over it.

762
01:13:47,635 --> 01:13:50,935
Don't think you've read one account of the development of money.

763
01:13:51,075 --> 01:13:53,875
And so this is going to be old hat because it's really not.

764
01:13:54,115 --> 01:13:57,515
It's so important to have, you know, you can't compare something.

765
01:13:57,515 --> 01:14:03,875
You can't say something is better unless you are also looking at something to compare it to.

766
01:14:04,075 --> 01:14:10,155
And so this is always one of the things that comes up with Bitcoin is you explain Bitcoin to people and you're like, yeah, you need to self-custody.

767
01:14:10,295 --> 01:14:13,015
And they're like, oh, well, what happens if I lose the key?

768
01:14:13,115 --> 01:14:15,175
And you're like, well, you lost your Bitcoin.

769
01:14:15,475 --> 01:14:17,015
And they're like, oh, that's horrific.

770
01:14:17,235 --> 01:14:18,055
Like, that's terrible.

771
01:14:18,635 --> 01:14:20,395
I can't live with that.

772
01:14:20,675 --> 01:14:24,095
But then you have to frame it in, well, what is this compared to?

773
01:14:24,095 --> 01:14:30,795
This is compared to a fiat system where it's guaranteed that you will lose your buying power.

774
01:14:31,975 --> 01:14:36,395
If you're within that system, it's not guaranteed that you're going to lose your Bitcoin.

775
01:14:36,535 --> 01:14:37,915
That is just on you.

776
01:14:38,115 --> 01:14:40,755
You know, I had a pair of underwear that I kept around for 20 years.

777
01:14:40,895 --> 01:14:44,075
I tried to lose them and I couldn't get rid of them.

778
01:14:44,215 --> 01:14:45,435
I think I'm going to be OK.

779
01:14:46,215 --> 01:14:49,155
Yeah, I think I'm going to be OK holding on to my Bitcoin password.

780
01:14:49,155 --> 01:14:57,835
But I also recognize that that is a preferable risk, even though there is a non-zero chance of total loss.

781
01:14:57,975 --> 01:15:05,175
Yeah, that's a preferable risk to the guarantee of the loss of my buying power through the fiat system.

782
01:15:05,175 --> 01:15:30,575
Again, it's so important to have an understanding of money and monetary history and the purposes and the characteristics of money because without that, then you can't make a logical assessment of the trade-offs that are included and realize that there is a huge benefit to being able to control your own money as opposed to letting someone else control it.

783
01:15:31,615 --> 01:15:32,615
That's the story.

784
01:15:32,715 --> 01:15:33,595
That is the story, man.

785
01:15:33,595 --> 01:15:35,915
Well, that was an awesome essay.

786
01:15:36,055 --> 01:15:37,315
Thank you for the conversation, Lucas.

787
01:15:37,555 --> 01:15:38,175
That was a lot of fun.

788
01:15:38,915 --> 01:15:39,315
Absolutely.

789
01:15:39,535 --> 01:15:42,795
This maple southern pecan shit coffee is running through me.

790
01:15:42,995 --> 01:15:45,355
I'm going to make myself a fiat deposit.

791
01:15:45,915 --> 01:15:46,315
Please.

792
01:15:46,495 --> 01:15:48,435
I saw where this was going.

793
01:15:48,575 --> 01:15:49,835
I was like, come on, Lucas.

794
01:15:50,295 --> 01:15:52,015
We're doing so good, man.

795
01:15:52,095 --> 01:15:52,695
Come on.

796
01:15:53,415 --> 01:15:54,975
But the fiat deposit is a good line.

797
01:15:55,415 --> 01:15:55,855
Saved.

798
01:15:55,995 --> 01:15:57,175
Saved it at the last minute.

799
01:15:57,175 --> 01:15:57,735
Saved it at the last moment.

800
01:15:58,335 --> 01:15:58,935
All right.

801
01:15:59,035 --> 01:16:00,675
Thank you guys for joining us here.

802
01:16:00,675 --> 01:16:04,435
and if you like it, please subscribe and share with other people. Have a good one.