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Welcome back to your favorite fourth or possibly by now fifth tier Bitcoin podcast.

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We're now a ZenoSystems podcast all the way.

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We're now just a strip.

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This is our third shot, not third shot, but our third podcast here talking about Nickland's ZenoSystems.

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We're going to release these separately, but we're actually recording them all at the same time.

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Wending our way deep into the night.

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Yeah.

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By candlelight.

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And Grant has promised to unbutton one more every time we do another episode.

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So I may chop this into nine or 10 because I've just never gotten anybody shirtless on the show.

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Can't wait.

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Despite your best efforts.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Trust me, I've tried.

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The shirtless Bitcoiner was the alternate kind of model for Bitcoin study sessions.

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And they were kind of rival thoughts on how to proceed.

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And we kind of went with studying instead of being shirtless.

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Shirtless Bitcoiner would have been a way better Halloween costume for you than Autonomous Capital.

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People have understood that, by the way.

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Autonomous Capital, nobody was going to get.

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But by the way, let me finish.

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The first one, we basically defined a bunch of terms that land puts out. The degenerative ratchet, the cathedral democracy. Turns out there's a different definition for that. The trichotomy.

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this kind of laid the groundwork for what we got into more into episode two which is land and by

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the way so this book it's this series of of of writings of blogs that were its philosophy being

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writ in real time with an audience and so as i mentioned in chapter in the second one it's

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basically like there's this big stone block and he's the sculptor and he's got his hammer and

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chisel and he's chiseling away in real time. He's not telling us what neoreactionism is to start off

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with. He's telling us what it is not. And then in our second episode, we started to get into more

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of what neoreactionism is, which is that it's more of a system for evaluating systems. It's not here

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to argue. It's here to basically stand back and see what wins and not be a participant in a game

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that it cannot win for multiple reasons. One, that the language is not sufficient to do it.

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Two, that in order to engage in the battle, you have to go fight it on the home field of the enemy

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under their rules using their weapons. And by the way, that means you have no weapons.

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Um, and, uh, so now we're going to move into, um, kind of land's, uh, thoughts on time.

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Yeah.

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I would say this is, this is land's metaphysics to the extent we get a metaphysics and Zen,

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Xeno systems.

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It's kind of some speculations on the nature of reality and the nature of, I mean, the

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whole, my summary of Neo reaction, it is, is that it is an unflinching approach to reality,

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which is as we're going to learn or discuss today the outside the outside is reality unfiltered

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and we that sounds like um like shocking or something like that or like something you say

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if you're going to have like a risque nighttime television show reality unfiltered reality

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unfiltered is actually horrific and anti-human because the filter is humanity that is what makes

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reality. Perceptible is all of the human senses that bring reality inside. The outside is reality

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before it kind of arrives at human perception. Before, though, we're going to talk about land

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on time. Let's talk about a few frameworks of time. One, Plato gave us a notion. So we're

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all the way back in history of philosophy. Plato is going to give us a notion of absolute time.

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Imagine time as a box in which things occur.

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So this is the notion that time is outside of reality and reality occurs inside of the box that is time.

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Aristotle is going to give us a different notion after Plato.

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So Plato, again, time is above reality in which reality occurs.

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Aristotle says time is a thing that happens in the world.

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It's change amongst the objects in the world.

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It's like entropy, the arrow of time as entropic disintegration or whatever happens.

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So time is derived from change.

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This is kind of where we got to in the essay Bitcoin is Time by Durjiji, where he was saying that Bitcoin defines an arrow of time through its internal operation.

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That was an Aristotelian notion because it was a notion of change, tick tock next block that we use to mark time.

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It wasn't that Bitcoin sat in an external container that was time.

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It was that Bitcoin, through its change, marked time and made time in that way.

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So Aristotle brings time into the world and makes it a matter of change in matter.

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That's what time is.

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Land says, though, that this hides the real problem of time.

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You begin not to be able to talk about time in itself as such, only about the changes that are happening that we use to measure time.

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That's what we got with Bitcoin and time.

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It turned out Bitcoin was not time.

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Bitcoin is time as a title, but really it was Bitcoin is a clock.

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And so we called time the thing that Bitcoin was measuring with each tick.

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But really, the only thing we actually showed or arrived at was that Bitcoin is a clock.

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and time must be occurring because that's what clocks measure, right?

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Things that happen at a certain interval.

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Land, though, is saying to think about time in that way hides the problem of time.

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You're looking only at the watch and not the thing that it's measuring,

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which is time itself, which is, again, Plato had that idea that time was separate

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or a box in which everything occurred, and so you could look at time itself.

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So our watch, with Plato's theory, our watch is basically our portal into that thing that is time.

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It's our mirror into the earth.

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It's our looking glass into a different world.

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Into the box.

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Yeah, because it's measuring.

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Because it exists separately.

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It's like measuring a separate thing.

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Like a thermostat measures heat.

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Yeah.

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On the platonic view, a clock measures a separate thing, which is time.

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On the Aristotelian view.

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In the Italian view, it measures that which is occurring there.

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It's not separate.

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It just calls that time.

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It just calls, right, it just calls time.

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The thing that is being measured is defines it as the change in the mechanism is what time is.

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Yeah.

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And so Land wants to get back to that platonic view, but it's actually the next step in philosophy, the Kantian view, that's going to serve as the bridge or the way out for him.

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And that is that time is a way that we structure our experience of the world.

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Time is a necessary condition for having experience.

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On the Kantian view, you can't talk about time in itself, though, because that's like talking about experience prior to having experience.

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Time is a thing that conditions or makes possible experience.

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So you can't talk about the condition that makes possible the thought, if that makes sense.

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Without time, everything would happen all at once.

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Something like that, or it would be so incredibly bizarre and unthinkable.

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We can't talk about time in itself because that's separate from our experience of the thing.

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To quote Land, it is a limit that we cannot see beyond because that would be a contradiction.

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That would be to experience beyond the thing, the condition, or makes experience possible.

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So for Land, this makes time in itself the singular problem of primordial philosophy.

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I guess I'll stop there.

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That's a romp inadequately through my interpretation of Land's interpretation of the history of the philosophy of time.

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Go back to the last thing that you said.

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Kant's idea of time.

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Yeah.

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So Kant had this idea.

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Because I get the other two.

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Yeah, that we never experience reality in itself.

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We only experience our experience of reality.

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So if you want to see the world, you don't see the world.

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You just see the sensations that your eyes give you of the world.

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So when you feel this table, you don't feel the table.

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You feel like the tips of your fingers and the sensations that are occurring there.

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You never experience the world as it is in itself. You only experience the world as it arrives to you already structured by the conditions of experience, which are things like space and time.

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these things make possible our experience of reality but space doesn't exist only space as

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a structuring condition making possible our experience of reality time doesn't exist or

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maybe it does but whatever it is we can't experience it we only experience it as the

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condition that makes possible our experience of reality so plato time is something that we look to

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in order to measure what we experience.

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Time is a separate thing from reality.

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It's separate.

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Yeah.

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Aristotle, time is in reality.

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It is inextricable from reality.

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And Kant, time gives us reality.

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That's one way to put it.

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Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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It's a transcendental condition.

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It is a condition that makes possible experience.

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Yeah, it's conditional for reality.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. So as a critique of Aristotelian time, Land notes that this privileges the origin of the universe over the destination, because everything that came after the origin is dependent on that origin.

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it's an arrow of time kind of causally dictated where you're moving forward and so um the origin

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of the universe becomes very important because that kind of causally dictates the things that

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come after it so you kind of look backwards but time but but land says that's actually

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a misconception because time was no denser or realer just because it was in the past and quote

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unquote already happened the past experience of time is no different from the future of time

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and yet we tend to think of it that way because quote unquote it already happened time um

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he says time cannot come from the past because it can't come from a place that presupposes the

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order of time because it cannot time cannot come from that's not a quote that's my

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summary so maybe that's not just let me think about that time cannot come from the past because

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it cannot come from a place that presupposes the order that assumes the order of time so

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basically it's just are we just saying that time cannot be linear

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i think what in his discussion i think what he wants to do with the aristotelian time

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is reassert the realness of the future if you think because the way that we think about time

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is that time only exists now and in the past.

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Yeah, because what has already happened is time.

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Because what is in the future is in the future.

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And it's just like, yeah, you're right.

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Like, we don't even think of it that way.

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Okay.

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And so that makes sense kind of on an Aristotelian view

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because time is only the change within the mechanism.

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It's only marking change.

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Yeah.

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And that's why...

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And future change hasn't occurred yet.

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Yeah.

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And so Land thinks that that's restrictive

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because the future, there is a realness to the future.

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And there's a realness to the time of the future.

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Yeah, and to say that there is a realness to the future and a realness to the time of the future is, on the Aristotelian view, kind of maybe not possible.

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Yeah, and so Land wants to get us to think about time in itself, which Kant says we can't do, but Land wants to do that.

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He wants to get back to philosophizing in that way.

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That's, he says, the singular problem of time.

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Kant kind of showed us the difficulty of it, but Land wants to do it.

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It was what I kind of take part of this to be saying.

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So Aristotle would tell me that when I have my eggs and flour and sugar, that I cannot say that there's a cake in my future.

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but

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Kant would tell me that

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the cake was there

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when I went to the grocery store

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and picked up those things

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and it was there when I brought them home

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and I put them in the shelves

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and it was there when I got out the mixing bowls

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and I started putting it together

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and it was there after I popped it into the oven

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and it was there when I pulled it out of the oven and frosted it.

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I think that's more a platonic view. I think that, yeah, I think Kant wants to say that you shouldn't even, you're getting yourself in thought loops and philosophical problems by trying to think of time in itself, whereas you should just be thinking about time as an internal principle of structuring and making possible your experience.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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And Aristotle, again, I'm not presuming to speak to Aristotle's notion of time.

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This is just my interpretation of land's very bare notes on Aristotle.

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Aristotle thought very deeply about causation.

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He had, I think, a fourfold notion of like principle and efficient cause and what like causation actually means.

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And so he's thought very deeply about these things.

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We have to really gloss over that for the purposes of this conversation.

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I think what's important is to get us to where land is, to where he's thinking deeply about time in itself. And, you know, that's a very philosophical, you might say, thing to do because Kant said it was impossible.

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Aristotle showed us that it was

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unnecessary for doing science

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you know you think about the world

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as it is you don't need this separate notion

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of time like you just measured the

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regularities or intervals in the world

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that's sufficient to mark

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any sort of unit of time we might need

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so to speak so for Land

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then thinking about time in itself

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is to think of something

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that is like the pure philosophical

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thought I think

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he plays with the notion of

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time in his discussion of entropy. So this may be, I don't know if we look at this as just kind

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of mental play or if there's something here, but if time is defined by change in this kind of

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Aristotelian sense where it's the ticking of the mechanism itself, which is a result of entropy

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that marks the direction of the arrow of time, then, Lan says, can we think about localized

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entropy reduction or what he calls extropy as time travel in a sense okay yeah if you're creating

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centers if you're creating order exporting entropy to other places is that freezing or changing time

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um is it reversing the direction of time what does that mean essentially on the aristotelian

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conception of time or on that conception of time marked by entropy if we can create localized bubbles of entropy reduction I having a beautiful thought Okay So land is giving us this view that we going one way

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There's only one place that we're going and nothing we can do.

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There's nothing we can do to stop it.

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That capital will find a way to reach escape velocity

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and that we will be inconsequential after that, whether we'll be targeted or forgotten or subsumed or whatever, that we will be inconsequential.

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And the way that we are slowing that is by applying morals.

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And those morals are breaks. Those morals are we are trumping intelligence with our own moral structures that we put in place through frameworks such as democracy and communism and MAGA and woke and all of these all of these things that are our morals.

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and those are the things that are slowing the entropy.

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No, I don't think so.

226
00:17:02,163 --> 00:17:06,143
No, I think he sees entropy reduction as intelligence.

227
00:17:06,443 --> 00:17:10,003
What intelligence does is reduce entropy and create order.

228
00:17:10,603 --> 00:17:12,563
So I think he thinks of entropy reduction

229
00:17:12,563 --> 00:17:14,903
not as a dampening mechanism on acceleration,

230
00:17:14,903 --> 00:17:17,323
but kind of what acceleration does

231
00:17:17,323 --> 00:17:20,343
is create localized pockets of reduced entropy.

232
00:17:20,583 --> 00:17:25,243
Well, the beautiful thought that I was having was that love does that as well.

233
00:17:25,243 --> 00:17:37,943
And it was making me think of the discussion with Jeff Booth is that, you know, the more love that we put in the world, the more we're going to impose this moral of love.

234
00:17:38,143 --> 00:17:40,183
And that's going to trump intelligence.

235
00:17:40,523 --> 00:17:41,243
And I don't know.

236
00:17:41,243 --> 00:17:46,143
This romantic notion is definitely something ground in the gears of machine intelligence, Sunland's view.

237
00:17:46,323 --> 00:17:50,243
It's just one of those re-descriptions of reality as a fantasy.

238
00:17:50,603 --> 00:17:55,163
It's something the cathedral would say to you that this is about love, this operation.

239
00:17:55,343 --> 00:18:01,863
It's not about the generation of a spontaneous order outside of your control, some notion of fate or, you know, destiny.

240
00:18:02,303 --> 00:18:03,963
I bet Land's not a hugger.

241
00:18:04,123 --> 00:18:04,443
Carry on.

242
00:18:05,743 --> 00:18:06,263
Yeah.

243
00:18:07,403 --> 00:18:08,323
That's pretty good.

244
00:18:08,383 --> 00:18:09,663
That's a funny thing to think.

245
00:18:11,243 --> 00:18:13,383
It would be really funny if it was.

246
00:18:13,383 --> 00:18:14,963
I can say that about any philosopher.

247
00:18:15,103 --> 00:18:16,283
I bet Kant's not a hugger.

248
00:18:16,343 --> 00:18:18,783
It's just funny to think that a philosopher might hug.

249
00:18:19,283 --> 00:18:27,623
Because there's nothing more embodied and, like, pointless and yet so essential as human conduct or contact like that.

250
00:18:28,543 --> 00:18:29,623
Politics and time.

251
00:18:30,183 --> 00:18:34,683
So, the progress—let's see if this is—yeah, this is new, I think.

252
00:18:35,323 --> 00:18:39,123
The progressive conclusion is that the past can teach us nothing.

253
00:18:39,123 --> 00:18:44,043
the future just gets better and better that's what progress is all about right progressivism

254
00:18:44,043 --> 00:18:50,663
progress is in the future let's head onward it's the arrow pointing up into the right essentially

255
00:18:50,663 --> 00:18:56,763
up it's self-justifying too this must be better or else why would we be doing it yeah there we go

256
00:18:56,763 --> 00:19:01,223
that's one of the way the cathedral whispers to people too is like that's why it's good is because

257
00:19:01,223 --> 00:19:07,123
it happened so exactly exactly um but if you believe and there's a separate notion of time

258
00:19:07,123 --> 00:19:10,803
though there's the arrow of time there's also cyclical time this is like the fourth turning

259
00:19:10,803 --> 00:19:16,063
right this is rise and fall of empires this is we go through periods of ascent and descent

260
00:19:16,063 --> 00:19:22,303
in that sort of view which is can be a very kind of conservative view where you turn towards the

261
00:19:22,303 --> 00:19:26,983
past you begin to believe in the importance of deep history because you could see repetitions

262
00:19:26,983 --> 00:19:33,583
it's not just up and to the right but it's like waves you're looking at that way too yeah um

263
00:19:33,583 --> 00:19:39,363
We can now, again, begin to understand where we're at by looking at the past.

264
00:19:39,863 --> 00:19:44,763
And you know it's an interesting thing here, too, that rising civilizations are all unique.

265
00:19:45,283 --> 00:19:47,263
Declining civilizations are all the same.

266
00:19:47,523 --> 00:19:49,843
In collapse, kind of the dynamics are all the same.

267
00:19:50,023 --> 00:19:52,663
So this is a very cool notion.

268
00:19:52,923 --> 00:19:55,283
A declining civilization is the age of prophecy.

269
00:19:56,783 --> 00:20:00,043
Declining civilization is the age of prophecy.

270
00:20:00,043 --> 00:20:03,623
Oh, yeah, yeah. Because that's when you can tell, you can say what's going to happen.

271
00:20:03,623 --> 00:20:10,883
You can say what's going to happen. Yeah, you can look to the past to predict the future and you can make claims about the future that have much more likelihood of coming true.

272
00:20:10,883 --> 00:20:28,703
He had a line about senility, too, that was basically like, it was basically saying that all, like, all failures, like, all country failures, government failures, everything, are due to senility.

273
00:20:29,563 --> 00:20:30,163
It's just like.

274
00:20:30,663 --> 00:20:32,123
Senescence and aging decline.

275
00:20:32,403 --> 00:20:34,483
Yeah, you just get old, you can't learn.

276
00:20:34,483 --> 00:20:35,523
Yeah, yeah.

277
00:20:35,963 --> 00:20:36,483
I wouldn't.

278
00:20:37,083 --> 00:20:39,403
That is the corruption of the feedback mechanism.

279
00:20:39,763 --> 00:20:40,783
That is the cathedral.

280
00:20:40,883 --> 00:20:42,443
and refusal to learn.

281
00:20:42,623 --> 00:20:43,323
And that's what it is.

282
00:20:43,743 --> 00:20:46,563
That is a feature of the system.

283
00:20:46,583 --> 00:20:47,263
Feature, not a bug.

284
00:20:47,363 --> 00:20:47,903
Yeah, definitely.

285
00:20:48,943 --> 00:20:53,403
So the neoreaction is not an arrow of time,

286
00:20:53,583 --> 00:20:55,703
nor is it a circle of time.

287
00:20:55,823 --> 00:20:56,583
It is both.

288
00:20:56,763 --> 00:20:58,343
What is both an arrow and a circle?

289
00:20:58,983 --> 00:21:00,823
What is both an arrow and a circle?

290
00:21:00,903 --> 00:21:01,923
A circle with an arrow.

291
00:21:02,083 --> 00:21:03,763
A snake eating its own ass.

292
00:21:04,083 --> 00:21:05,203
Not the Ouroboros.

293
00:21:05,523 --> 00:21:07,403
That's just a circle redescribed.

294
00:21:07,743 --> 00:21:08,323
It's a spiral.

295
00:21:08,323 --> 00:21:15,103
it moves it moves upward but it circles so we go through series we go through cycles of rise and

296
00:21:15,103 --> 00:21:20,383
fall but all of that propelling us upward into the future towards the inevitable conclusion of

297
00:21:20,383 --> 00:21:27,903
machine intelligence explosion something like that yeah so this he says um essentially this

298
00:21:27,903 --> 00:21:32,243
like a spiral is like the occult signifier of neo-reaction or something like that you had to

299
00:21:32,243 --> 00:21:38,903
put it into an image it would be a spiral the best um visualization of bitcoin price that i've

300
00:21:38,903 --> 00:21:44,263
ever seen was a guy who did it in a spiral have you seen this one no i don't know um it was uh

301
00:21:44,263 --> 00:21:52,863
i think it was a bitcoin um i think it was a bitcoin prog last year but i'm not sure but

302
00:21:52,863 --> 00:22:05,303
Yeah. When you look at it in this spiral and you see the timing as it continues to grow, like it may, yeah, it just matches this. It's fascinating.

303
00:22:05,303 --> 00:22:22,103
So, yeah, so what we're saying is that progress, not progressivism, but progress is not linear, nor is it all this chaotic mess is that it's spiraling.

304
00:22:22,523 --> 00:22:23,343
It spirals.

305
00:22:23,563 --> 00:22:23,863
It goes.

306
00:22:24,123 --> 00:22:25,403
I wouldn't say progress.

307
00:22:25,503 --> 00:22:26,303
I would say time itself.

308
00:22:26,563 --> 00:22:26,643
Time.

309
00:22:26,783 --> 00:22:26,943
Okay.

310
00:22:27,063 --> 00:22:27,243
Yeah.

311
00:22:27,523 --> 00:22:27,923
Oh, okay.

312
00:22:28,023 --> 00:22:28,323
Yeah, yeah.

313
00:22:28,323 --> 00:22:30,023
Time itself is a political construction.

314
00:22:30,223 --> 00:22:35,463
Time considered as political unfolding of history, maybe.

315
00:22:36,603 --> 00:22:36,903
Yeah.

316
00:22:37,323 --> 00:22:37,523
Cool.

317
00:22:37,663 --> 00:22:38,743
That's why I'm looking at it.

318
00:22:38,943 --> 00:22:39,303
All right.

319
00:22:39,523 --> 00:22:40,403
I like this time.

320
00:22:41,043 --> 00:22:41,943
Time and perception.

321
00:22:41,943 --> 00:22:56,863
So we're considering, like, again, what Land is doing, I think, is making the notion of time philosophical again by resting it either from over-eminentization of Aristotle, where time sort of disappears.

322
00:22:56,863 --> 00:22:59,563
because it is just the operation of the world itself.

323
00:22:59,803 --> 00:23:01,883
And also he's taking it back from Kant,

324
00:23:01,943 --> 00:23:03,703
who's saying time is unthinkable.

325
00:23:04,603 --> 00:23:07,063
But also he's not like reverting to Plato

326
00:23:07,063 --> 00:23:09,403
where like time is just this discrete separate thing.

327
00:23:09,503 --> 00:23:11,503
He's really doing some interesting thinking about time

328
00:23:11,503 --> 00:23:12,643
as a philosophical problem.

329
00:23:13,363 --> 00:23:16,703
So there's also the notion then of time and perception.

330
00:23:17,683 --> 00:23:21,183
Our notions of time are, this part is so cool.

331
00:23:22,043 --> 00:23:25,303
Our notions of time are anthropocentric, right?

332
00:23:25,303 --> 00:23:34,623
your perception of time is based on the fact that we're humans navigating the world and using time

333
00:23:34,623 --> 00:23:40,523
in a certain way for example the second is like the lower limit of human experience of time and

334
00:23:40,523 --> 00:23:47,243
we might say the century is the upper limit one the second is like that lower boundary in which

335
00:23:47,243 --> 00:23:51,983
we can still think and react to the second once you get kind of below that you begin to escape

336
00:23:51,983 --> 00:23:57,783
outside of human perception the century is like the human lifespan more or less and so beyond that

337
00:23:57,783 --> 00:24:03,823
you're like moving into something beyond the human so that's kind of like the human anthropocentrized

338
00:24:03,823 --> 00:24:12,683
anthropocentric conception of time is the second based around the biophysics of mammalian motility

339
00:24:12,683 --> 00:24:20,123
and the century around the limits of mortality but there are different natural time scales

340
00:24:20,123 --> 00:24:23,623
Land points out, obviously, that are not anthropocentric.

341
00:24:24,003 --> 00:24:28,303
The lower range of that, much lower than the second.

342
00:24:28,583 --> 00:24:28,643
Right.

343
00:24:28,863 --> 00:24:35,623
That's, he says, the movement of a photon across a Planck length, if we want to try to measure it.

344
00:24:35,963 --> 00:24:40,843
And then on the upper bounds, he talks about something called the stelliferous era.

345
00:24:41,103 --> 00:24:43,243
This is the era when stars are born.

346
00:24:43,943 --> 00:24:55,443
This is expected to last 100 trillion years and is expected to last 7,000 times longer than has occurred since the Big Bang, essentially.

347
00:24:56,243 --> 00:24:58,443
And that's just the area in which new stars are born.

348
00:24:58,443 --> 00:25:00,823
Wait, how much did you say? 100,000 years?

349
00:25:00,843 --> 00:25:02,263
It doesn't even matter the number.

350
00:25:02,483 --> 00:25:05,903
I mean, it's just like so immense that it's beyond sense, essentially.

351
00:25:06,643 --> 00:25:09,423
But the cooler part is not even that upward boundary.

352
00:25:09,543 --> 00:25:12,583
The cooler part is moving downward.

353
00:25:12,583 --> 00:25:13,303
Okay.

354
00:25:13,303 --> 00:25:23,923
Moving downward towards closer to the instant when time maybe breaks down, like what does it mean to get closer to that Planck length estimation of time?

355
00:25:24,583 --> 00:25:27,803
And I'll just give you a quote to what Land is thinking here.

356
00:25:27,803 --> 00:25:44,703
A femtoscale intelligence system could explore the rise and fall of entire biological phyla in detail in a period so minuscule it would entirely escape human apprehension as submomentary or subliminal.

357
00:25:44,703 --> 00:25:54,083
the ultimate eons are less ahead than within if you really want to travel into time reduce your

358
00:25:54,083 --> 00:26:01,663
perception of time to where go just essentially go down into time closer to if you're experiencing

359
00:26:01,663 --> 00:26:07,283
time at the second level the level of the second where that's your like base level experience of

360
00:26:07,283 --> 00:26:12,323
time what happens when you do that at half a second a quarter of a second one one thousandth

361
00:26:12,323 --> 00:26:19,483
of a second then you can do a university education in five minutes and that's what i think he's saying

362
00:26:19,483 --> 00:26:27,883
in artificial intelligence is going to do or does it collapses time by moving closer to that plank

363
00:26:27,883 --> 00:26:33,523
length of a photon traveling or whatever but i just think that's so interesting because we think of

364
00:26:33,523 --> 00:26:40,083
the bigger a thing is the more expansive it is but it's actually there's more space at the bottom he

365
00:26:40,083 --> 00:26:45,843
says once you begin to get into that's just so cool i don't know it's like imagine zooming in

366
00:26:45,843 --> 00:26:53,083
on reality you know and going down to the atomic level then you see how immense atoms are because

367
00:26:53,083 --> 00:26:57,663
of how empty the spaces are between like the yeah it's just the same way with time itself

368
00:26:57,663 --> 00:27:04,563
the second is immense and when you break that down into these trillions and you know whatever

369
00:27:04,563 --> 00:27:06,203
It's just like, it's incredible.

370
00:27:06,863 --> 00:27:06,923
Yeah.

371
00:27:07,043 --> 00:27:13,283
And it's, I mean, it goes hand in hand with what we're finding with everything else, like that's changing the world.

372
00:27:13,463 --> 00:27:17,003
Everything else that's changing the world is doing things on a smaller scale.

373
00:27:17,183 --> 00:27:17,463
Yeah.

374
00:27:17,463 --> 00:27:34,043
You know, like we've made more advancements in, you know, medicine and longevity and human performance and stuff by going from the cell to subcellular in what, I don't know, a hundred years or less.

375
00:27:34,563 --> 00:27:40,143
than we did in the entirety of history coming up to that on the larger scale.

376
00:27:40,383 --> 00:27:40,583
Yeah.

377
00:27:42,583 --> 00:27:48,163
And you bring up the really interesting point, which is like this table,

378
00:27:48,403 --> 00:27:51,783
this table is mostly empty space.

379
00:27:52,643 --> 00:28:02,143
And I'm not saying anything that's attention-grabbing

380
00:28:02,143 --> 00:28:07,743
in just trying to be like, oh, there's more to it than what I'm saying.

381
00:28:07,843 --> 00:28:10,143
Like, it literally is mostly empty space.

382
00:28:10,363 --> 00:28:16,143
Like, the atoms that comprise this are surrounded by empty space.

383
00:28:16,323 --> 00:28:22,143
It's like figuratively massive distances in between atoms.

384
00:28:22,323 --> 00:28:25,243
It's most, like, everything is mostly empty space.

385
00:28:25,963 --> 00:28:29,323
And so, yeah, to think about traversing that Planck length.

386
00:28:29,323 --> 00:28:40,663
And what we can do with it, if we could utilize it, we have our clumsy human bodies occupying anthropocentric designations of space and time.

387
00:28:40,663 --> 00:28:49,083
What happens when anthropocentrism is not the model of space and time, when we can utilize vast portions of space at the bottom?

388
00:28:49,383 --> 00:28:50,703
That's nanotechnology, right?

389
00:28:50,763 --> 00:28:53,963
That's what nanotechnology is, is that ability to utilize space.

390
00:28:53,963 --> 00:29:07,263
And that's what like Moore's law does, like utilizes space with much more efficiency. What happens when we do that with time? And maybe kind of that's what computation does by becoming quicker and quicker in relation to human thinking.

391
00:29:07,263 --> 00:29:25,703
And once there's an interface between artificial intelligence and its ability to utilize time and human intelligence or experience of time, then you can increase the human lifespan subjectively almost indefinitely.

392
00:29:26,243 --> 00:29:32,263
Yeah, I'm excited about being able to compress an 11-day meditation retreat into –

393
00:29:32,263 --> 00:29:33,223
Yeah.

394
00:29:33,483 --> 00:29:35,543
Because it's going to be hard for me to sit still that long.

395
00:29:35,543 --> 00:29:39,863
That's the only thing. It wouldn't be possible because meditation is actually so embodied.

396
00:29:40,463 --> 00:29:43,543
That's the weirdest thing about meditation is it depends.

397
00:29:43,883 --> 00:29:53,683
When I went to the meditation tree, one of the things that struck me was the practice of sitting in an uncomfortable position is not a hindrance to meditation.

398
00:29:53,683 --> 00:29:55,523
It is a key part of meditation.

399
00:29:56,383 --> 00:30:01,303
And so it's interesting to think about which of our practices are anthropocentric because they are embodied.

400
00:30:01,303 --> 00:30:06,263
They depend on the human body and which of them, what new practices will be available.

401
00:30:06,383 --> 00:30:14,243
Maybe new forms of meditation will be available once we're able to do them without the body at scales that escape the body.

402
00:30:14,483 --> 00:30:16,663
You do lose your sense of time, right?

403
00:30:17,443 --> 00:30:18,303
It dilates.

404
00:30:18,923 --> 00:30:19,763
It dilates, right.

405
00:30:19,823 --> 00:30:20,763
Or it contracts.

406
00:30:20,943 --> 00:30:21,343
Right.

407
00:30:21,443 --> 00:30:22,063
It could do both.

408
00:30:22,063 --> 00:30:28,583
maybe pass faster if you get into the period where you're feeling like blissful waves of energy over

409
00:30:28,583 --> 00:30:33,623
your body then it's kind of like time is kind of irrelevant because if you're caught in this

410
00:30:33,623 --> 00:30:37,863
beautiful stasis of pleasure in a way that's sustainable where it's non-hedonic treadmill

411
00:30:37,863 --> 00:30:43,723
style pleasure where it's just like self-sustaining be there indefinitely that's fine whereas like if

412
00:30:43,723 --> 00:30:49,043
you're in pain you know every second is an agony because you're assailed by this constant stream

413
00:30:49,043 --> 00:30:55,523
of thoughts telling you where you should otherwise be. So yeah, but time at the bottom is immense.

414
00:30:55,823 --> 00:31:04,623
And the second is a vast scale of time. It's just such a, again, it's the most philosophical thing

415
00:31:04,623 --> 00:31:09,483
you can do maybe is to look at your watch and imagine how time might be different than the

416
00:31:09,483 --> 00:31:13,603
watch that you were using to measure it. What does it mean when we consider time as such?

417
00:31:14,123 --> 00:31:18,183
Some people will tell you that's an idle philosophical speculation. Kant might say

418
00:31:18,183 --> 00:31:20,983
that land is going to say that's where philosophy begins.

419
00:31:22,323 --> 00:31:22,803
Yeah.

420
00:31:23,003 --> 00:31:24,083
And this is the outside movie,

421
00:31:24,123 --> 00:31:25,723
but this brings us into the next topic.

422
00:31:26,563 --> 00:31:29,323
This I think is going to be my most like for me,

423
00:31:29,323 --> 00:31:32,743
like interpretive of what land is saying because it's my own,

424
00:31:32,743 --> 00:31:50,366
a most emotional reaction to land and his most suggests the most suggested feature of land is Twitter handle used to be outsideness um outside in is a framing he uses i forget if it was also in his blog as well i think his blog was called

425
00:31:50,366 --> 00:31:54,866
xenosystem i think outside in was like maybe the subtitle or coldest oh my god regardless

426
00:31:54,866 --> 00:32:05,566
this idea of the outside is a rhetorical framing that land uses i think um in a few different ways

427
00:32:05,566 --> 00:32:12,726
One of which is just to give himself an escape hatch into a different realm, if that makes sense.

428
00:32:13,726 --> 00:32:33,826
So all of the banal observations of reality can kind of be—they're only banal to the extent that we reflect on reality only as our own reflection on reality, as something that has arrived at us through our human senses.

429
00:32:33,826 --> 00:32:34,906
Yeah, everything's perspective.

430
00:32:34,906 --> 00:32:35,946
Yeah, everything is.

431
00:32:35,946 --> 00:32:37,066
We talked about filters earlier.

432
00:32:37,246 --> 00:32:37,386
Yeah.

433
00:32:37,466 --> 00:32:47,506
Like the filter that this, one of the things that changed my life was understanding that everything that we experience goes through two filters prior to our experiencing of it.

434
00:32:47,586 --> 00:32:53,346
We have the eyes, which are an external part of our central nervous system that are filtering for threats.

435
00:32:53,586 --> 00:32:55,306
And then we have our beliefs.

436
00:32:55,986 --> 00:33:02,786
And so we get, first we filter for threats and then we filter for things that align with our beliefs.

437
00:33:02,786 --> 00:33:04,786
And now we have our experience.

438
00:33:04,906 --> 00:33:12,266
So we're two filters removed from reality at all times, minimum.

439
00:33:12,606 --> 00:33:14,146
This is the inside, I think.

440
00:33:14,346 --> 00:33:18,486
This is conditioned experience that is human experience because there's nothing wrong with that.

441
00:33:18,566 --> 00:33:20,066
You're always going to be conditioned in that way.

442
00:33:20,146 --> 00:33:22,346
Those filters are essential to what it means to be human.

443
00:33:22,346 --> 00:33:31,106
The narratives of what our life means to us, like facts have meaning only in a narrative structure that we give them.

444
00:33:31,106 --> 00:33:44,526
And so to be free of all filters would be to be in the outside without human filters either is just like terror and dementia in equal measure because you don't understand the terror you experience.

445
00:33:44,526 --> 00:33:45,306
It's not filtered.

446
00:33:45,406 --> 00:33:46,486
It's not structured for you.

447
00:33:46,606 --> 00:33:51,266
Or it's just not experience because experience is inherently human.

448
00:33:51,686 --> 00:33:53,866
It occurs through these filters.

449
00:33:53,866 --> 00:34:02,466
The construction, talking about Kant earlier, experience only happens due to the transcendental conditions we impose on it of space and time.

450
00:34:02,686 --> 00:34:08,866
What happens when you're outside of space and time, in the world, in reality, as it actually is?

451
00:34:09,526 --> 00:34:10,886
Like, there is no experience.

452
00:34:10,886 --> 00:34:24,826
So the outside is beyond filters, the thing in itself, beyond human comprehension, reality in its raw state prior to be converted into any human comprehensible input is how I think of it.

453
00:34:25,446 --> 00:34:30,866
And it's like part of Lan's idea of escape is escape towards the outside.

454
00:34:30,866 --> 00:34:40,446
You're always kind of moving away from these filters, trying to get closer to a reality you can never actually inhabit because to inhabit that reality is to cease to be human.

455
00:34:40,886 --> 00:34:48,146
Yeah. And so outside in, you want to move towards the outside, but you're moving towards a limit.

456
00:34:49,146 --> 00:34:49,626
Okay.

457
00:34:50,226 --> 00:34:51,166
Does this all make sense?

458
00:34:51,846 --> 00:34:54,006
I'm trying. I'm doing what I can.

459
00:34:54,126 --> 00:34:56,346
You want to move towards the outside, but you're moving towards the limit.

460
00:34:56,406 --> 00:34:59,526
You have limits because if you didn't have limits, you wouldn't be human.

461
00:35:00,566 --> 00:35:03,926
Yes. And that's the ultimate escape is escaping your humanity.

462
00:35:03,926 --> 00:35:07,766
I mean, that's machine intelligence in a word is like the final escape.

463
00:35:08,286 --> 00:35:10,086
We talk exit, right?

464
00:35:10,086 --> 00:35:16,386
The final exit is exit into machine intelligence, exit into autonomous capital, something like that.

465
00:35:16,486 --> 00:35:16,626
Yeah.

466
00:35:16,626 --> 00:35:29,806
A future that is not human because the human future is always bounded by filters, one of which is the cathedral, the other of which is the monkey business filter of doing things because they make us happy.

467
00:35:30,386 --> 00:35:30,726
What's that?

468
00:35:30,946 --> 00:35:31,806
And what was it?

469
00:35:32,366 --> 00:35:32,846
Anthropocentric.

470
00:35:33,266 --> 00:35:33,706
Anthropocentric.

471
00:35:34,406 --> 00:35:35,986
I mean, that's what monkey business is, right?

472
00:35:35,986 --> 00:35:39,606
It's everything is because we want it to be.

473
00:35:39,606 --> 00:35:41,186
It's around us.

474
00:35:41,306 --> 00:35:49,406
I would say monkey business more gestures towards our evolutionary past as certain sorts of evolved creatures that therefore have certain desires.

475
00:35:49,626 --> 00:35:54,666
Whereas anthropocentric is more you have a body.

476
00:35:54,846 --> 00:36:01,226
And so reality is in your experience a certain experience of reality.

477
00:36:02,166 --> 00:36:02,726
I don't know.

478
00:36:02,786 --> 00:36:05,366
Maybe there's a distinction there that is not fine.

479
00:36:05,366 --> 00:36:11,866
But the matrix in the red pill analogy is something he gives when he's kind of talking about this.

480
00:36:12,866 --> 00:36:19,466
The critical key to gnosis, and so gnosis is kind of that idea of knowledge, right?

481
00:36:19,586 --> 00:36:20,566
Gnosis is, yeah.

482
00:36:21,166 --> 00:36:21,886
The critical key to gnosis.

483
00:36:21,886 --> 00:36:23,346
Is this everything to do with the Gnostics?

484
00:36:23,546 --> 00:36:23,826
Yes.

485
00:36:23,946 --> 00:36:24,126
Okay.

486
00:36:24,266 --> 00:36:24,426
Yeah.

487
00:36:24,426 --> 00:36:34,626
The critical ketonosis is the realization that the whole of your world is an inside, implying an outside in the radical possibility of escape.

488
00:36:35,386 --> 00:36:39,906
And then, you know, again, you can look at the three strands of neoreaction.

489
00:36:40,406 --> 00:36:42,626
What is the outside for religious people?

490
00:36:43,486 --> 00:36:43,526
God.

491
00:36:43,786 --> 00:36:44,286
Yeah, heaven.

492
00:36:44,686 --> 00:36:45,106
Yeah, heaven.

493
00:36:45,206 --> 00:36:45,946
Something like that.

494
00:36:46,046 --> 00:36:48,186
Some sort of metaphysics beyond the physical.

495
00:36:48,186 --> 00:36:56,686
And so what is the outside for ethno-nationalists or geneticists, hereditarians?

496
00:36:56,826 --> 00:36:57,066
I don't know.

497
00:36:57,226 --> 00:36:57,986
Thousand-Year Reich?

498
00:36:58,666 --> 00:37:01,566
That's a political instantiation, maybe, cynically stated.

499
00:37:01,786 --> 00:37:07,666
But I would say, like, the outside is evolution beyond our current human state.

500
00:37:07,766 --> 00:37:07,966
Okay.

501
00:37:08,166 --> 00:37:10,386
Yeah, it's evolved beyond the human.

502
00:37:10,866 --> 00:37:11,086
Okay.

503
00:37:11,086 --> 00:37:14,186
So what's the outside for techno-commercialism?

504
00:37:18,186 --> 00:37:28,886
just techno i i'm trying to think yeah yeah no i don't know i mean maybe it's like we we've

505
00:37:28,886 --> 00:37:36,046
what techno commercialism is commercializing technology to feed our anthropocentric so

506
00:37:36,046 --> 00:37:41,226
techno commercialism is that strand of neo-reaction that focuses on catalaxy as the

507
00:37:41,226 --> 00:37:49,066
strand of fate dictating how reality generates itself to a predetermined future.

508
00:37:49,386 --> 00:37:54,286
So the outside is that future, which is autonomous capital, machine intelligence,

509
00:37:54,726 --> 00:38:00,946
apolitical property. These are the outside. When human experience ceases to matter because capital

510
00:38:00,946 --> 00:38:06,046
generates further capital for its own purposes, intelligence optimization maybe is the outside

511
00:38:06,046 --> 00:38:07,806
for techno-commercialists.

512
00:38:08,606 --> 00:38:10,446
Techno-intelligence optimization

513
00:38:10,446 --> 00:38:12,646
considered as artificial intelligence.

514
00:38:13,506 --> 00:38:16,226
So most people fear and loathe the outside.

515
00:38:17,146 --> 00:38:18,486
That makes sense, right?

516
00:38:18,626 --> 00:38:24,726
That means shedding your human nature,

517
00:38:25,046 --> 00:38:26,166
everything human about you.

518
00:38:26,526 --> 00:38:30,106
That's one of the things that I think is underthought about

519
00:38:30,106 --> 00:38:33,566
is how, this is maybe going to sound heretical,

520
00:38:33,706 --> 00:38:35,926
but how horrific is the idea of heaven, right?

521
00:38:36,046 --> 00:38:41,526
because we can't even, it's so mysterious.

522
00:38:42,066 --> 00:38:47,786
I mean, it's only good because we've kind of predetermined that it's going to be good.

523
00:38:47,786 --> 00:38:50,506
But if you didn't have the predetermination that it was going to be good

524
00:38:50,506 --> 00:38:53,966
and you were only told that you will not have your body

525
00:38:53,966 --> 00:38:57,846
and you will exist in a space outside of time indefinitely,

526
00:38:58,566 --> 00:39:00,546
you might be a little bit anxious about that.

527
00:39:01,546 --> 00:39:02,786
Yeah, it'd be cause for concern.

528
00:39:02,926 --> 00:39:04,366
You wouldn't know what to do with your favorite hat.

529
00:39:04,366 --> 00:39:23,686
Maybe, yeah, something like that. And so any sort of outside, anything beyond the human, it's only because we have fantasies that anthropomorphize them for us, where heaven is us walking around with our grandparents and our new bodies, our souls, and we just got like colored outlines for forms.

530
00:39:23,686 --> 00:39:37,966
Yeah, and I think we also maybe like incorrectly believe that what we are experiencing at all times is good because we are experiencing it or it's.

531
00:39:38,706 --> 00:39:39,986
That's the cathedral in your head.

532
00:39:39,986 --> 00:39:44,366
Or we think like, or we think like we chose this.

533
00:39:44,426 --> 00:39:45,466
So you didn't choose this.

534
00:39:45,566 --> 00:39:46,526
You didn't choose to be born.

535
00:39:46,646 --> 00:39:47,646
You didn't choose to be white.

536
00:39:47,746 --> 00:39:48,746
You didn't choose to be male.

537
00:39:48,846 --> 00:39:49,966
You didn't choose to be any of this.

538
00:39:49,966 --> 00:39:52,546
I guess you chose a couple things, maybe.

539
00:39:52,706 --> 00:39:53,926
Like you chose to read this book.

540
00:39:54,066 --> 00:39:54,226
Maybe.

541
00:39:54,326 --> 00:39:57,446
You chose what to eat and you chose to wipe instead of air drying.

542
00:39:57,626 --> 00:39:57,866
No.

543
00:39:58,706 --> 00:39:58,986
Oops.

544
00:40:00,726 --> 00:40:02,186
Gotta get up a day, man.

545
00:40:02,386 --> 00:40:03,006
Gotta get up a day.

546
00:40:03,006 --> 00:40:04,106
I don't load the outside.

547
00:40:04,266 --> 00:40:08,626
I embrace it, man, whether that's air drying or like contemplating machine intelligence.

548
00:40:09,066 --> 00:40:10,206
A little Neuralink.

549
00:40:10,466 --> 00:40:10,786
Yeah.

550
00:40:10,926 --> 00:40:12,246
A little bit of that tap it in.

551
00:40:12,586 --> 00:40:16,226
So some of the things that terrify us about the outside.

552
00:40:16,226 --> 00:40:23,646
So he says fate, genetic determinism, divine will, those terrify us, kind of as you've been hinting, because these all deny human agency.

553
00:40:23,946 --> 00:40:27,386
Like we're no longer actors if everything is predetermined.

554
00:40:29,766 --> 00:40:35,406
The outside too, another way to look at it, this is all just ways of looking at a thing that you can't look at.

555
00:40:35,486 --> 00:40:37,166
Again, the outside is beyond human experience.

556
00:40:37,326 --> 00:40:42,346
When I say let's talk about the outside is, well, let's talk about a thing we can't really talk about.

557
00:40:42,506 --> 00:40:45,406
And so all we can do is give like a bunch of different approaches to it.

558
00:40:45,406 --> 00:40:48,406
One is philosophical speculation about the thing in itself.

559
00:40:48,686 --> 00:40:51,626
One is kind of the fears we have of what that might entail.

560
00:40:52,246 --> 00:40:57,726
Another one is to conceive of it as an absolute state of nature and therefore war.

561
00:40:57,726 --> 00:41:03,866
For the outside is like that thing that precedes all order.

562
00:41:04,206 --> 00:41:11,026
So a popular paradigm he gives is that you need peace to have order, to have law, to have freedom.

563
00:41:11,766 --> 00:41:14,586
He says there's actually, of course, a state before that.

564
00:41:14,586 --> 00:41:17,666
There's war that leads to peace, order, law, freedom.

565
00:41:17,666 --> 00:41:28,406
But even this privileges peace as preferable to any conflict, as if you need to resolve war in order to get to order, law, and freedom.

566
00:41:29,146 --> 00:41:40,186
Whereas Land kind of disagrees that reducing war to entropy, although entropy is bad, entropy production is synonymous with intelligence.

567
00:41:40,706 --> 00:41:42,666
That's different than something I said earlier.

568
00:41:43,066 --> 00:41:44,566
But I think this is his position.

569
00:41:44,586 --> 00:41:49,766
that intelligence produces entropy

570
00:41:49,766 --> 00:41:54,766
because it uses energy in all the things it constructs.

571
00:41:55,406 --> 00:41:56,846
Intelligence produces entropy

572
00:41:56,846 --> 00:42:00,086
or entropy produces intelligence?

573
00:42:00,166 --> 00:42:01,226
That might be a better way to...

574
00:42:01,226 --> 00:42:01,966
I think both.

575
00:42:02,126 --> 00:42:03,026
It's like a loop, right?

576
00:42:03,206 --> 00:42:03,466
Yeah.

577
00:42:03,686 --> 00:42:05,726
Yeah, because intelligence produces intelligence.

578
00:42:05,726 --> 00:42:08,186
More is a necessary condition for peace.

579
00:42:08,306 --> 00:42:10,926
Disorder is a necessary condition for order.

580
00:42:11,706 --> 00:42:12,386
Kind of?

581
00:42:12,386 --> 00:42:22,686
I think that and that also, I mean, this has this really cool blog entry essay in here on Cormac McCarthy, which I actually read a passage from that in our discussion on software.

582
00:42:23,906 --> 00:42:36,766
That war is just something that, and this is a software point, at the end of the day, to resolve a dispute at the base level, you resort to war to determine what is true.

583
00:42:36,766 --> 00:42:44,266
To quote Land, it is the ultimate tribunal beyond which any appeal is a senseless prayer to the void.

584
00:42:45,106 --> 00:42:48,626
Peace is just one possible result of war and not permanent.

585
00:42:49,146 --> 00:42:53,646
And then he has a quote from Herodotus here to show that this just isn't Land saying weird things.

586
00:42:54,086 --> 00:42:56,366
This has deep historical lineage.

587
00:42:57,026 --> 00:43:01,646
Herodotus says, war is the father of all things and of all things king.

588
00:43:02,646 --> 00:43:03,166
Hmm.

589
00:43:06,766 --> 00:43:18,266
there's the sound of war a signal or civil war assigned yeah yeah as the sirens go by as order

590
00:43:18,266 --> 00:43:25,306
seeks to reassert itself through law enforcement what is the quote about like politics is the

591
00:43:25,306 --> 00:43:30,226
continuation continuation so the war is the continuation of politics by other means yeah

592
00:43:30,226 --> 00:43:35,646
is i think klaus witz but then he also quotes michelle foucault who inverts that and says

593
00:43:35,646 --> 00:43:39,486
politics is the continuation of war by other means.

594
00:43:39,626 --> 00:43:41,426
So one of them is the inversion of the other.

595
00:43:41,926 --> 00:43:43,686
War is politics by other means.

596
00:43:43,786 --> 00:43:47,526
Then someone inverted to say politics is war by other means.

597
00:43:47,586 --> 00:43:48,226
And they both make sense.

598
00:43:48,306 --> 00:43:48,526
Yeah.

599
00:43:48,986 --> 00:43:49,166
Yeah.

600
00:43:49,706 --> 00:43:50,146
Yeah.

601
00:43:51,606 --> 00:43:52,746
Well, good for her.

602
00:43:52,906 --> 00:43:55,706
I was thinking big thoughts back then.

603
00:43:55,846 --> 00:43:56,286
It is.

604
00:43:56,466 --> 00:43:57,926
War is king of all things.

605
00:43:58,226 --> 00:44:04,686
I mean, they lived closer maybe than we did to the state of war back in the day, so to speak,

606
00:44:04,686 --> 00:44:07,306
where wars occurred with much more frequency.

607
00:44:08,086 --> 00:44:09,146
Not if war is politics.

608
00:44:09,266 --> 00:44:11,786
If war is politics, then we live on the front lines.

609
00:44:11,886 --> 00:44:12,446
I mean, that's true.

610
00:44:12,646 --> 00:44:12,946
Yeah.

611
00:44:13,326 --> 00:44:15,406
He has an essay talking about unrestricted warfare

612
00:44:15,406 --> 00:44:18,826
where war includes all sorts of things that happen

613
00:44:18,826 --> 00:44:20,846
like within our financial system

614
00:44:20,846 --> 00:44:25,486
and just any sort of thing can be a maneuver within war.

615
00:44:25,886 --> 00:44:28,586
I listened to a podcast that was reviewing Zeno systems

616
00:44:28,586 --> 00:44:30,726
and the guy gave what he,

617
00:44:30,726 --> 00:44:37,526
it was either his determination of land's definition of war or it was land's definition of war.

618
00:44:38,186 --> 00:44:43,986
And it was something about like basically a conflict without rules.

619
00:44:44,926 --> 00:44:45,406
Yeah.

620
00:44:45,566 --> 00:44:45,786
It's war.

621
00:44:46,286 --> 00:44:46,586
Yeah.

622
00:44:46,686 --> 00:44:48,226
It's like there's, you know, no.

623
00:44:48,346 --> 00:44:53,046
Because in order to have rules, you have to be able to impose them on other people.

624
00:44:53,166 --> 00:44:54,846
And so the war is already won at that point.

625
00:44:54,886 --> 00:44:55,006
Yeah.

626
00:44:55,106 --> 00:44:57,146
Like war determines what the rules are.

627
00:44:57,326 --> 00:44:57,526
Yeah.

628
00:44:57,526 --> 00:45:03,526
So war as such has no rules or else there's already a war that's been lost.

629
00:45:03,806 --> 00:45:03,906
Yeah.

630
00:45:04,846 --> 00:45:05,086
Yeah.

631
00:45:08,546 --> 00:45:09,546
Here's a quote.

632
00:45:10,026 --> 00:45:17,766
So to maybe sum up and bridge on to the next and I think last part of maybe not the last one of the last parts.

633
00:45:17,766 --> 00:45:27,506
So here's a quote on, to tie up our discussion of the outside, tying it to the notion of exit and neoreaction.

634
00:45:28,126 --> 00:45:39,146
So Land says, outer NRX, which is his abbreviation for neoreaction, outer NRX, defined primarily by exit, relates itself to what it escapes.

635
00:45:39,626 --> 00:45:43,166
It is refuge in periphery, more than a substitute core.

636
00:45:43,166 --> 00:45:49,126
it does not ever expect to rule anything at all above the most microscopic level of social reality

637
00:45:49,126 --> 00:45:55,326
and even then under quite different names the patchwork is for it a set of options and

638
00:45:55,326 --> 00:46:01,906
opportunities for leverage rather than a menu of potential homes it is intrinsically nomad

639
00:46:01,906 --> 00:46:09,266
unsettled and micro agitational it is culture its culture consists of departures it does not regret

640
00:46:09,266 --> 00:46:18,486
While not remotely globalist, it is unmistakably cosmopolitan with the understanding that the cosmos consists of chances to split.

641
00:46:20,326 --> 00:46:21,746
Does that mean anything to you?

642
00:46:21,986 --> 00:46:22,286
Nope.

643
00:46:22,526 --> 00:46:22,826
Okay.

644
00:46:23,906 --> 00:46:30,986
The outside, for NRX purposes, is that possibility of escape.

645
00:46:30,986 --> 00:46:39,086
The inside is to be inside, trapped in the cathedral, trapped in a democracy, trapped in a state you don't want to be in.

646
00:46:39,266 --> 00:46:54,966
The patchwork then is all these other options of places you can go. You move towards the outside to something that is not filtered in the same way to a different reality, but not with the thought that you're escaping to your new home.

647
00:46:54,966 --> 00:47:05,606
You're escaping to a place that is a new point of potential departure, but also not something you regret.

648
00:47:06,026 --> 00:47:13,566
So a movement towards the outside is the movement towards, I think, the possibility of continual departure.

649
00:47:14,006 --> 00:47:21,306
So that you always are moving faster than the degenerative ratchet of the place in which you inhabit, maybe.

650
00:47:21,506 --> 00:47:23,846
Is the outside taken from Plato's Cave?

651
00:47:24,966 --> 00:47:26,386
Is that where he gets that?

652
00:47:26,946 --> 00:47:36,609
That it the outside of the cave which cannot like you I mean you can imagine it when you inside the cave And is that where that comes from

653
00:47:37,269 --> 00:47:39,049
So that would be to give it a platonic spin.

654
00:47:39,669 --> 00:47:48,948
And so the outside on the platonic view, the outside of that cave, you enter the realm of pure platonic forms,

655
00:47:49,388 --> 00:47:53,329
the pure form of the good, the pure form of time, as we talked about,

656
00:47:53,329 --> 00:47:56,269
the pure form of all these different things.

657
00:47:56,749 --> 00:48:19,468
Whereas I think for land, when you enter the outside, you begin to encounter things in themselves, not as forms that illuminate human experience, but as things that are alien to human experience.

658
00:48:19,468 --> 00:48:29,849
So when you escape from the cave, I think it's almost like you're moving towards reality illuminated and made much more clear.

659
00:48:30,109 --> 00:48:37,569
When you move to the outside, things become less clear in a sense because you move beyond experience.

660
00:48:37,569 --> 00:48:39,468
You move into unfiltered reality.

661
00:48:40,549 --> 00:48:43,988
It's only not human experience because humans haven't experienced it.

662
00:48:44,029 --> 00:48:46,448
If they'd experienced it, it would be human experience.

663
00:48:46,609 --> 00:48:46,988
Kind of.

664
00:48:46,988 --> 00:48:53,349
Which makes me think of the Buddha, right, leaving the walled garden and then experiencing the world for the first time.

665
00:48:53,448 --> 00:48:54,468
Except for there is no.

666
00:48:54,648 --> 00:48:55,789
And then he achieves.

667
00:48:56,069 --> 00:48:57,849
But yeah, this is where I was taking it.

668
00:48:57,849 --> 00:48:59,888
I'm trying to put a positive spin on this.

669
00:49:00,269 --> 00:49:04,908
Is that Buddha leaving the walled garden, experiencing the world and all the horrors of it.

670
00:49:05,189 --> 00:49:09,049
And what happens as a result is that he achieves enlightenment.

671
00:49:09,529 --> 00:49:09,769
Yeah.

672
00:49:09,888 --> 00:49:12,968
So maybe, I don't know, that's my positive spin.

673
00:49:13,069 --> 00:49:15,849
Is that we reach the outside through this effective accelerationism.

674
00:49:15,849 --> 00:49:24,128
accelerationism we reach escape velocity um and maybe enlightenment enlightenment waits i don't

675
00:49:24,128 --> 00:49:33,109
know yeah that could be it's like the outside of the cave is you arrive and look at your filters

676
00:49:33,109 --> 00:49:38,109
at that point you look at all the filters that you have and understand your reality better because

677
00:49:38,109 --> 00:49:43,849
now you can see the things by which you are interpreting the world whereas the outside for

678
00:49:43,849 --> 00:49:50,109
land is you arrive outside your filters and so you simply become a different thing a different

679
00:49:50,109 --> 00:49:55,789
filter a different thing different thing which maybe has different you are a thing because of

680
00:49:55,789 --> 00:50:00,829
your filters we're human because of our filters we've talked about yeah yeah you just you lose

681
00:50:00,829 --> 00:50:06,749
all the conditions of experience i think if you move into the pure outside and so you i don't know

682
00:50:06,749 --> 00:50:12,628
like what does reality mean if you encounter it unfiltered does that even make sense to say

683
00:50:12,628 --> 00:50:19,948
you know yeah well it kind of does it's like you know because it's oh man filters make possibly

684
00:50:19,948 --> 00:50:23,669
the possibility of experience though right so if you encounter it outside your filters

685
00:50:23,669 --> 00:50:31,908
then what even is that you're not touching or seeing or feeling or tasting or whatever hearing

686
00:50:31,908 --> 00:50:41,388
john verveke talks about this perspectival knowing and it to know something you have to

687
00:50:41,388 --> 00:50:50,789
Like if you remove your perspective, if you no longer have a perspective, and a perspective is inherently formed by the filters that you have.

688
00:50:51,408 --> 00:50:54,369
And so if you remove all those filters, you also remove your perspective.

689
00:50:54,569 --> 00:50:57,729
Perspective is something you don't know you have until you've left it behind.

690
00:50:57,928 --> 00:50:58,329
Yeah.

691
00:50:58,948 --> 00:51:03,589
And moved on to a new perspective with new filters and new blind spots that you're unaware of.

692
00:51:03,628 --> 00:51:03,908
Yeah.

693
00:51:04,289 --> 00:51:04,549
Right?

694
00:51:04,749 --> 00:51:04,908
So.

695
00:51:04,908 --> 00:51:25,829
I mean, it could be the simulation of an infinite number of perspectives simultaneously, something like that, like a fly's eye imagined as faucets all viewing the same thing. Or, you know, if you could, in some sense, embody different perspectives and incorporate them. I don't know. But that's all speculative, which leads us to why Land focuses on horror.

696
00:51:25,829 --> 00:51:43,908
A lot of his rhetoric in here, he's really into Lovecraft as a way to talk about things that can't be talked about. So horror as like a cinematic and fictional device. He has a whole couple of essays on that, abstract horror. Like why is horror an infatuation for land?

697
00:51:43,908 --> 00:52:04,049
And again, this is like language is compromised. How do we talk about things that we otherwise can't talk about? Art now allows us to do that. Horror is a specific form of art that allows us to think and say specific things, to envision specific futures or something like that.

698
00:52:04,049 --> 00:52:12,769
that um like within horror land knows there's like a certain relationship of abstraction that

699
00:52:12,769 --> 00:52:18,849
monsters have it's not like you might imagine like a scary movie is like jason chasing somebody with

700
00:52:18,849 --> 00:52:22,529
a knife or like you know that's like okay that's scary because you're gonna get killed by this thing

701
00:52:22,529 --> 00:52:29,049
with a knife whereas a horror movie is you're going to experience something that exceeds human

702
00:52:29,049 --> 00:52:34,769
experience and the representation of that is going to take a certain abstraction it's going to be

703
00:52:34,769 --> 00:52:39,408
both something that you don't want to look at because the look at it forces you to acknowledge

704
00:52:39,408 --> 00:52:47,289
some aberration of natural law but also you can't not look at it because we're evolutionarily

705
00:52:47,289 --> 00:52:52,508
conditioned to look at the dangerous thing to protect ourselves from it and so one example he

706
00:52:52,508 --> 00:52:58,648
gives is Cronenberg's The Fly where mutation is a flight from form and so you might like put

707
00:52:58,648 --> 00:53:06,729
capital f form like the idea of form as such the horror is that our notions of form might be imposed

708
00:53:06,729 --> 00:53:12,389
on the world and the world itself might be a fluid structure and constant flux and change and

709
00:53:12,389 --> 00:53:18,869
mutation that's what evolution is right whereas we tend to view it as stable maybe the true horror

710
00:53:18,869 --> 00:53:25,749
is something like cronenberg's fly where form is contingent or fluid or always changing and we

711
00:53:25,749 --> 00:53:33,749
learn something about like the abstract horror of the outside by contemplating a work of fiction

712
00:53:33,749 --> 00:53:39,488
i don't know i just looked up nick land's favorite movies what does it say man terminator one

713
00:53:39,488 --> 00:53:44,928
definitely he talks about that a couple times blade runner predator yep he talks about that

714
00:53:44,928 --> 00:53:50,669
in here i don't know what i don't know what akira or videodrome yeah videodrome is more

715
00:53:50,669 --> 00:53:57,369
Cronenberg Akira's anime right ghost in the shell another good anime yeah yeah that's what you got

716
00:53:57,369 --> 00:54:00,968
yeah ghost in the shell is the one I was talking about the other day when I was trying to create a

717
00:54:00,968 --> 00:54:08,769
bitcoin study sessions logo with grok is my inept assistant yeah trying to like to like make it like

718
00:54:08,769 --> 00:54:15,309
ghost in the shell and at one point it like it said I can't do this it violates my terms of service

719
00:54:15,309 --> 00:54:17,209
I was like, why is that?

720
00:54:17,269 --> 00:54:19,488
And he's like, I can't create fetish content.

721
00:54:19,608 --> 00:54:22,128
I was like, I got to step away now.

722
00:54:22,488 --> 00:54:26,829
I was like, I didn't know what I was trying to do with this whole logo I was describing.

723
00:54:27,169 --> 00:54:30,689
But old Grok was getting the wrong ideas about my motives.

724
00:54:30,928 --> 00:54:31,549
Oh, dude.

725
00:54:32,809 --> 00:54:34,628
What a surprise that would be.

726
00:54:34,769 --> 00:54:37,269
This door gets kicked in and all of a sudden you get busted.

727
00:54:37,389 --> 00:54:38,809
You're like, I had no idea what I was doing.

728
00:54:38,948 --> 00:54:39,948
Literally no clue.

729
00:54:40,189 --> 00:54:40,809
I'm sorry.

730
00:54:40,809 --> 00:54:44,648
But like Ghost of the Shell, like it's kind of Matrix type theme where I had a person in a vat.

731
00:54:44,648 --> 00:54:48,908
And then they had tubes going into their head, right?

732
00:54:49,508 --> 00:54:52,628
And then I was like, make some of those tubes into tentacles.

733
00:54:53,428 --> 00:54:56,389
That's what it accused me of fetishism.

734
00:54:59,729 --> 00:55:02,529
So I was like, ah, nicely played.

735
00:55:02,829 --> 00:55:03,608
Yeah, well done.

736
00:55:03,928 --> 00:55:04,589
I get you.

737
00:55:04,789 --> 00:55:06,549
I see what happened.

738
00:55:06,889 --> 00:55:07,229
Yeah.

739
00:55:07,968 --> 00:55:09,628
A step too far.

740
00:55:09,628 --> 00:55:16,569
and then i was like but so i was like okay but make it like manga style pen and ink now it's

741
00:55:16,569 --> 00:55:24,389
not finished it's like okay i used to try to tell it to um it would be like i can't do that because

742
00:55:24,389 --> 00:55:30,029
it whatever like violates this whatever yeah and i would be like okay rewrite my prompt so that

743
00:55:30,029 --> 00:55:35,189
doesn't violate your thing nice doesn't work no it doesn't no it didn't work it's like i'm not

744
00:55:35,189 --> 00:55:38,928
going to do your dirty work that was what i was trying that was when i was trying to make the uh

745
00:55:38,928 --> 00:55:44,648
the flyer for the birthday party oh and i put this like my prompt to chat gpt this was back

746
00:55:44,648 --> 00:55:50,349
when i was dumb and i was using chat gpt and man and chat gpt that's what i use actually i use the

747
00:55:50,349 --> 00:55:54,928
chat i mean it's okay but it's got a good it's got a workspace you got this walled garden so you

748
00:55:54,928 --> 00:56:02,729
used to be horrific okay like right yeah because like at this time i was like create a like uh

749
00:56:02,729 --> 00:56:10,249
create a image of a party happening in a Sherlock Holmes style apartment with a diverse group of

750
00:56:10,249 --> 00:56:15,209
fit, beautiful people. And it was like, can't do that. Now, that'd be an offense to all the

751
00:56:15,209 --> 00:56:20,189
ugly people, except, of course, it couldn't say ugly people or the unfit people. And I kept trying

752
00:56:20,189 --> 00:56:26,549
to, this violates my policies. I kept trying to get it to redo it. This is such a good point about

753
00:56:26,549 --> 00:56:33,069
the nature of intelligence optimization that you can't box it in with morality as soon as you begin

754
00:56:33,069 --> 00:56:40,189
to impose our morality of egalitarianism on the ai it becomes useless fucking retarded utterly

755
00:56:40,189 --> 00:56:45,389
useless yeah yeah utterly useless i ended up instead of having a very cool flyer for our party

756
00:56:45,389 --> 00:56:52,349
i literally had a one line that said what it said like dress as your own hero come come at what it

757
00:56:52,349 --> 00:56:55,948
It was a come at once if possible.

758
00:56:56,349 --> 00:56:58,209
It's the Sherlock Holmes quote.

759
00:56:58,549 --> 00:56:59,589
Come at once if convenient.

760
00:56:59,769 --> 00:57:01,628
If inconvenient, come all the same.

761
00:57:01,749 --> 00:57:02,448
Ah, nice.

762
00:57:03,549 --> 00:57:03,849
Yep.

763
00:57:04,049 --> 00:57:05,428
That's about all I had, though.

764
00:57:05,849 --> 00:57:07,529
We end on land and horror.

765
00:57:07,829 --> 00:57:09,269
He does talk about zombie movies.

766
00:57:09,349 --> 00:57:10,988
He has a couple of essays on those.

767
00:57:11,569 --> 00:57:12,249
They were okay.

768
00:57:12,549 --> 00:57:13,148
They were nice.

769
00:57:13,309 --> 00:57:14,309
I don't have anything against them.

770
00:57:16,608 --> 00:57:17,468
They're just okay.

771
00:57:17,468 --> 00:57:26,709
No, I mean, what he's saying, like, again, it's interesting that he uses horror as a prism through which to make certain realities visible.

772
00:57:26,988 --> 00:57:38,589
And what zombies do, like zombie movies, zombie is kind of like in the apocalypse movie genre where we survive a catastrophe and now certain moralities are stripped away.

773
00:57:38,589 --> 00:57:43,628
And so the zombie apocalypse is we can kill unfettered.

774
00:57:44,148 --> 00:57:46,689
The vengeance fantasy is unleashed.

775
00:57:46,689 --> 00:57:54,169
And so some people like it's almost like you pray for catastrophe, the final fall of government, because then you're free.

776
00:57:54,769 --> 00:57:57,229
And then act your impulses to do whatever you want.

777
00:57:57,329 --> 00:57:57,508
Yeah.

778
00:57:57,709 --> 00:57:58,169
Purge.

779
00:57:58,549 --> 00:58:00,249
Just murder, murder, murder.

780
00:58:00,249 --> 00:58:15,369
And he notes the specific thing that's interesting in light of kind of some things that are highlighted on Twitter every once in a while is that when the state is seen as protecting criminals from retaliation, people dream of vengeance through catastrophe.

781
00:58:15,369 --> 00:58:23,148
so imagine like when that that ukrainian gal irina was killed like you see that these like

782
00:58:23,148 --> 00:58:27,769
the person who killed her had been shielded from certain judges releasing them on bail constantly

783
00:58:27,769 --> 00:58:33,968
and then we see that's a recurring pattern right and the reaction a lot of people have is like

784
00:58:33,968 --> 00:58:42,928
burn it all down yeah like vengeance is so critical to human notions of justice that

785
00:58:42,928 --> 00:58:48,648
the whole justice system has got to go if it can't do this basic thing and so people are willing to

786
00:58:48,648 --> 00:58:54,108
yeah like the zombie apocalypse becomes kind of a revenge fantasy at that point like we can load

787
00:58:54,108 --> 00:58:59,769
our rifle and go out there and enact what we need to do so yeah yeah but you want them to suffer

788
00:58:59,769 --> 00:59:04,729
you don't want to be zombies because it won't hurt you want to be alive that yeah that that

789
00:59:04,729 --> 00:59:12,309
kind of unleashes though any last moral compunction we have by making them like unfeeling unthinking

790
00:59:12,309 --> 00:59:17,729
fodder for our vengeance yeah yeah that's a good point yeah he's got a little numerology on here

791
00:59:17,729 --> 00:59:23,988
a little three three he's way into yeah um that used to be when outsideness was his twitter handle

792
00:59:23,988 --> 00:59:31,468
he had a digital clock with three three three on it um that that was his old thing so six nine damn

793
00:59:31,468 --> 00:59:36,809
good time he's always been and still is into when he was on tucker carlson that was brought up or

794
00:59:36,809 --> 00:59:42,769
not he when somebody was on tucker carlson kind of throwing shade at land um they were it kind of

795
00:59:42,769 --> 00:59:49,908
went into land as i think an influence on silicon valley trying to summon demons because he's into

796
00:59:49,908 --> 00:59:55,349
this numerology and i mean the thing with land it's it's all just like a vector for stimulating

797
00:59:55,349 --> 01:00:00,968
thought is how i see it i mean philosophy is an initiation into thought a lot of these um

798
01:00:00,968 --> 01:00:12,789
And ways to think through probabilistic methodologies, like reducing things to numbers and the ways to use randomness to incite creativity.

799
01:00:13,108 --> 01:00:25,889
I think, I don't know if I'm framing this really well, but I understand, like a lot of people use the tarot for that reason, that you can throw a set of cards and get a new random constellation of facts to stimulate thought in a new direction, right?

800
01:00:25,889 --> 01:00:30,608
Yeah. And this is the definition of philosophy that you gave. It's like philosophy is the thing that makes you think.

801
01:00:30,608 --> 01:00:31,508
Yeah, exactly.

802
01:00:31,908 --> 01:00:40,889
So I don't know enough about that side of Land's project, though, to talk about it, which hasn't stopped me in the past at all.

803
01:00:40,889 --> 01:00:42,569
Yeah, me neither. Ever.

804
01:00:42,908 --> 01:00:43,089
Yeah.

805
01:00:43,589 --> 01:00:44,608
He's a real good guy.

806
01:00:44,749 --> 01:00:52,589
Land, you hear him talk on podcasts, and you can tell when somebody is just, like, quote, unquote, a good dude.

807
01:00:52,709 --> 01:00:53,908
And he sees a good dude.

808
01:00:53,908 --> 01:01:09,049
Like, I love a dude who's got like, you know, their own freak philosophy and they're willing to just like let it all out stylistically and go out to whatever excess is necessary to say what is necessary without fear, with courage.

809
01:01:09,349 --> 01:01:15,049
He does that and then he comes on a podcast and just like just so kind and nice and a normal dude.

810
01:01:15,169 --> 01:01:15,648
Yeah.

811
01:01:15,769 --> 01:01:15,988
Yeah.

812
01:01:15,988 --> 01:01:24,329
Yeah, bravery is really, I mean, one way you can think about it is like bravery is a need or is not having the need to be understood.

813
01:01:24,709 --> 01:01:26,689
Yeah, that's really good.

814
01:01:26,689 --> 01:01:39,148
It's really brave, I think, to tackle these subjects because he, yeah, he just, I mean, first he points out the stuff about the cathedral that makes it verboten to talk about these subjects.

815
01:01:39,148 --> 01:01:43,589
And then he talks about them because you're not beholden to those things.

816
01:01:43,589 --> 01:01:54,869
You're not beholden to the rules that are being imposed on you by the system that's ratcheting out of control, downward in a spiral, or hopefully upward, who knows.

817
01:01:54,869 --> 01:01:57,869
But yeah, nickel and xenosystems.

818
01:01:58,709 --> 01:01:59,289
That's all I got.

819
01:01:59,389 --> 01:01:59,869
Yeah, that's a fit.

820
01:01:59,928 --> 01:02:00,869
It's been a fun discussion.

821
01:02:02,069 --> 01:02:02,189
Yeah.

822
01:02:02,589 --> 01:02:03,849
I loved his book.

823
01:02:03,968 --> 01:02:05,669
I loved his blog back when it was operational.

824
01:02:06,849 --> 01:02:19,648
And the next thing we have to do with some indeterminate point in the future, he has a book-length essay called Cryptocurrent, which is about Bitcoin as philosophy.

825
01:02:19,908 --> 01:02:20,169
Yeah.

826
01:02:20,169 --> 01:02:23,389
And it's like Bitcoin as transcendental critique.

827
01:02:23,389 --> 01:02:34,448
So we were talking about the way that Kant did philosophy was to talk about what conditions make experience possible, something like that.

828
01:02:35,189 --> 01:02:43,589
And Land talks about Bitcoin as one of the conditions that makes an experience of reality possible.

829
01:02:43,669 --> 01:02:50,169
So basically he uses Bitcoin as a way to critique, as a form of thinking in cryptocurrency.

830
01:02:50,169 --> 01:02:55,349
But if you think this is dense, cryptocurrency is a difficult read.

831
01:02:55,428 --> 01:02:58,069
I've worked through it a little bit with some AI assistance.

832
01:02:58,448 --> 01:03:01,269
It's really good, but it would take concerted effort.

833
01:03:02,169 --> 01:03:03,809
I like conserting my effort.

834
01:03:04,029 --> 01:03:05,648
I like conserving my effort, too.

835
01:03:05,749 --> 01:03:07,608
I'm about to go do that by laying down in bed.

836
01:03:07,709 --> 01:03:08,108
So are you.

837
01:03:08,209 --> 01:03:09,968
We've both got days tomorrow that we've got to get to.

838
01:03:09,968 --> 01:03:10,369
It is.

839
01:03:10,549 --> 01:03:11,189
That is very true.

840
01:03:11,269 --> 01:03:12,689
So thank you for this discussion.

841
01:03:12,809 --> 01:03:13,209
It was a lot of fun.

842
01:03:13,448 --> 01:03:14,789
Once again, nobody got shirtless.

843
01:03:15,269 --> 01:03:19,349
Thank you for tuning in to your fifth-tier Bitcoin podcast.

844
01:03:19,349 --> 01:03:20,589
I'm Lucas, that's Grant.

845
01:03:20,749 --> 01:03:21,948
We've really enjoyed our time with you.