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Before you listen to this conversation with Adam Smecha, I wanted to draw your attention to a few things that he brings up.

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One, he talks about the Bank Secrecy Act of 1970.

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At the end of this video, I've linked our conversation about Natalie Smolenski's paper on this topic.

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Please take a look at that.

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It will help you understand a lot about how the legal system has made it more and more difficult for us to have good money.

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And it's gotten progressively worse since 1970.

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Second, Five Mile Farms is the operation that Adam gets his beef from that he gave to us as a gift on the show.

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Absolutely fantastic.

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Please check him out.

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I've linked him as well.

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Third, Adam is the guy on the ground doing this.

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I'm in a text group with him and he's asking people, hey, please go through your credit card account.

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See who you've done business with that uses a Square Merchant.

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And I'll personally go to them and I will say, hey, do you realize if you switch over to Bitcoin, you don't have to pay fees.

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You don't get chargebacks.

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You can still get paid in cash if you want.

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Everyone's better off.

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He realized early on that if we don't spend Bitcoin in an economy, it will never become money.

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It'll just end up being like that shiny yellow rock called gold.

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And we don't want that.

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We know where that goes.

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So thank you so much for joining this conversation and listening.

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It's been a year since we started this podcast.

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Jeff Booth, Natalie Smolinski, incredible guests that we've had on here, and we've got even more

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coming for you. So please subscribe if you haven't already and enjoy this conversation with Adam

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Smecha. We are honored to have with us today our first in-studio guest. As you can tell by the

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awkward arrangement, we've done our best with our ramshackle hackneyed studio here in order to

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Squeeze in Mr. Adam Smecha.

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Adam, your ex-profile, Christian father and developer,

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Mana, you've created the Mana Bitcoin wallet,

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which has a bunch of other fun tricks and toys

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that's more than just a wallet.

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But whenever I listen to a podcast

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and I hear somebody give a biography of the person,

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I always think, well, they're probably missing out

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on what that person actually wants to say about themselves.

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So if you would introduce to people who is Adam, how you got into Bitcoin, kind of your journey, and I guess really what you're excited about as we're moving here into 2026.

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Sure. Thank you so much. By the way, thank you guys for having me. I actually really like this setup. This is cool. I watch the show that you guys put on pretty regularly. And yeah, I've been watching you guys.

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Yeah. Yeah. You can see they got the, this is an apartment.

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You say studio kind of very generously, but this is a room in an apartment and we're doing our best.

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So thank you for that.

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It's great. I think the atmosphere was awesome.

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All right.

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We've got the red light. Oh, I had the red light going.

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So I think you mentioned this is your first in-person.

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It is.

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It is also my first in-person podcast interview.

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I don't even know, probably somewhere in the ballpark of 20 or 30 different podcast interviews over the course of my,

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time and developing but um this is really cool to be doing it in person and get to yeah guaranteed

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that we're all wearing pants or that we've made an ironclad agreement not to yeah no we had to

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have a strict pants policy after kind of the it is nice because when you are in person it's much

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more organic to respond to people and to be able to interrupt somebody and interject and whatnot so

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it is it makes i said something about sharing the room sharing a space when we were doing the

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nick land one and yeah about told me to get out it's like i don't like it's just jargon right i

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I mean, let's share space.

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It's like psychological speak that's infiltrated.

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Therapy speak is kind of infiltrated into regular talk.

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So we've got to be careful.

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Continue.

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We cut you off.

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It's all good.

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So back to the question.

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I would just, if I had to like describe myself,

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the underlying principle of me is,

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and I've probably recently kind of come into this idea

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or being able to put a name to this.

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because of bitcoin and that would be i consider myself a freedom maximalist first so i'm a bitcoin

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maximalist as well but but i'm a bitcoin maximist maximalist because i'm a freedom maximalist and

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that's a core tenet of my life um you know from you know as long as i can remember you know i've

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always wanted to help people be more free and early on in my early adulthood um i thought that

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meant joining the military. I joined the Air Force and I served in the Air Force for six years as a

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firefighter. And that's how I knew best how to help people be more free.

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What six years was that? Was that some geopolitically fraught period?

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It wasn't necessarily. It was 2011 to 2017. So there were some small conflicts in there. And

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And I ended up getting deployed in 2017 over in the Middle East.

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And that's actually when I found Bitcoin.

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So that's part of my Bitcoin journey is I was actually deployed and saving some money and trying to figure out how I wanted to preserve into the future and provide for my family.

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I have a little bit of extra time on my hands.

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And so I started investing into stocks.

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So I just got into the stock market, started doing as much research as I could.

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I didn't know anything in the beginning, but I was just doing lots and lots of research and seeing how people were investing and or trading.

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I hadn't figured all that out yet, but I was on that journey.

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And as I was doing all this searching on the Internet and stuff, I was obviously, you know, giving up some of my tracking data to some of these advertisers that were then able to target me, which was actually my Bitcoin salvation, so to speak.

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because what happened was I got a targeted ad from Investopedia.

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It was an Ethereum article.

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So I found Ethereum before I had Bitcoin.

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And the article itself described proof of work.

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And so I started reading this article.

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And as I'm going through this article, it's just completely blowing my mind.

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I'm not even all the way, you know, probably even halfway through the article.

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And I'm like, this is one of the most important pieces of, you know, literature,

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if you want to call it that, that I've ever read.

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It's it was game changing to me.

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And before I even finish the article, I'm halfway around the other side of the world and I'm calling my brother on Skype.

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I don't even know what time it was in here.

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So it might have been like the middle of the night.

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And so I'm just like ringing.

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I'm like, dude, pick up, pick up.

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And he answers.

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And I'm like, I just read something that I think is going to change the world.

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And it was, of course, the concept of proof of work.

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I didn't know anything about, you know, anything else at this point.

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Again, I didn't even know about Bitcoin, which is crazy.

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I can't believe I hadn't heard of Bitcoin before this moment.

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But so this, again, was in 2017.

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And so that day I went home after my shift and I started doing just as much research as I could in a short amount of time.

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And I'm like, dude, I just had to buy some of this and, you know, sold all my stock.

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I bought Bitcoin, I bought Ethereum, and I bought Litecoin.

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And those were the three options available on Coinbase at the time in that journey.

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And so once I had those, I just kept doing more and more research over time and eventually got to the point where I became, you know, more or less a Bitcoin maximalist.

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But again, this kind of goes back into the theme of, you know, my passion, my goal is to ensure that people are free, that people remain free, that I remain free.

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And as a part of that, it's very important to me to make sure that I preserve other people's freedom, too, because it's reciprocal.

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And without other people having freedom, then I am de facto less free myself.

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So what about proof of work? Is it the technology?

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I mean, there's lots of abstract ways to think about what proof of work is, like the real world reaching into cyberspace.

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and there's more technical kind of summaries out,

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but what about proof of work for you was like so groundbreaking?

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Well, obviously, like you mentioned,

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proof of work is so, you know, expansive

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and in different disciplines and fields of study

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that you could look at it through like different lens

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that you could see proof of work and its impact and meaning.

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But in this moment, it was simply taking energy

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and converting it into a verifiable cryptographic proof

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that represents value.

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So essentially taking information

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from the analog world

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and translating it and bridging it into the digital world.

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That was the part that blew my mind

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because I realized that that has never been done before.

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And I spent a lot of time growing up.

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I was a big gamer, right?

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Like lots of video games.

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And so a lot of my experience is through the lens of, you know, virtual currencies and virtual economies in a digital space and seeing all the problems that come from, you know, game fiat, like in-game economies and the fiat systems that run these things, even though they're not real money, so to speak.

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um you know i observed all of these things over time and then i saw this new virtual money that

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could simply you know uh avoid all the pitfalls of uh somebody you know a developer being able to

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print money or control economy in a video game and so uh yeah i saw this thing called proof of

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work it explained you know essentially you're able to prove that the work had been done

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in the physical world and then you could cryptographically prove in the digital on the

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digital side that that work had you know been been done and then that becomes the underlying token of

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course in this context it was referring to this peace token but yeah that that is what i think

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was really pivotal to my understanding of what bitcoin was and is yeah um which by the way of

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course you guys probably know but in case anybody else doesn't get there it was no longer proof of

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work it is a proof of stake coin so that mind-blowing or earth-shattering moment that i had

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no longer applies to it anyway so just wanted to make sure that was pointed out so this is a

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fairly esoteric i would say podcast where we we go into you know a lot of hard to understand

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writings about bitcoin or or things that honestly be honest very few people read

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because a lot of people are just there for the grow up aspect of it.

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But for those people that hopefully find this, that are a little less, a little less invested

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in that, they're coming from that world that you came from where you were just trying to save some

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money. You're just trying to buy some stocks. You're doing some research. So what were you,

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what was influencing you then? Were you reading Warren Buffett's letters? Were you checking the

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Motley Fool, like what kind of investment thesis did you have at the time? And has that changed?

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And the reason I ask is because I used to be a investment advisor. And so when I started,

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I was with Edward Jones and the name of the game was diversification, you know, and diversification.

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Now I look at it as diversification is what you do when you don't know what to do, right? It's the

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thing that you're, I'm just going to, yeah, I'm going to sell the winners in order to pay for the

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losers. And so kind of, what was your, what was your investing thesis? And then how did that change

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when you, when you came over and you saw what proof of work was? It's a bit of a self-deprecating

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answer because it's a little embarrassing, but I was just a complete degenerate. So I was, of course,

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you know i heard all of the good advice you know 60 40 portfolio um and all that stuff i didn't

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listen to any of that i was looking for like the quick you know the quick fix right the stock that's

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gonna you know rip overnight and i can get in and get out i did have some uh stocks that i bought

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out of um more like an idealistic or like a um from a moral perspective too like just businesses

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that I wanted to support and become invested,

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have a vested interest in some of these businesses.

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And so I did that too.

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But again, my intent and the purpose was to get more money, right?

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Because I was too naive to really understand

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how everything worked and realize

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that the whole system's completely rigged against,

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you know, the small guy.

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But that's where I was at that time.

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And it wasn't until I found Bitcoin,

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And in fact, many years later that I realized, you know, there's a different way of looking at things, specifically as it pertains to the economy as a whole.

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So a lot of people recognize this as kind of a dichotomy of Keynesian economics and Austrian economics.

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Obviously, there's a little more nuance to it than that, but more or less, you're probably going to idealistically fall into one of these two camps.

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and before Bitcoin, I wouldn't have had any idea that anything other than what I was taught and

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raised with, which was Keynesian economics existed. So I never even heard the term Austrian

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economics. I didn't know any of the, you know, the classical Austrian economists by name.

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I didn't understand. I will admit my whole life, I went to business school too, by the way. So I,

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you know, I was in all these classes and took all the finance classes and everything, all the

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economics classes and i didn't know that what i was being taught was canadian economics yeah

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i will say my entire education i had i had trouble getting it to click for me because there were so

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many like little things that just didn't make sense and no matter how many times i read in a

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textbook i could not piece it together and it wasn't until long after i found bitcoin that i

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realized it's because the amazing economics is fundamentally flawed it doesn't make sense it

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doesn't make sense i trained as an economist for six years and i never heard the term austrian

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economics i never heard anything about it nothing um you in your article um that we will get to talk

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a little about here um you referenced a actually put in a nice big quote from um the creature from

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czecholadon and uh i presume then that that was your understanding of how like that that really

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probably pulled back the wool um and seeing how keynesian economics and modern monetary theory

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was flawed um which i think is fascinating because that was written way before bitcoin was

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racked right exactly put this out and um we're able to see you know step by step the process

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of not just how flawed it is but how nefarious it was to begin with um but i i just i kind of i

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I think it's interesting to point this out because you're unique.

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Like very few people, I think, learn about Bitcoin because of proof of work.

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Usually that's like eight steps down the line, right?

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That's after the shit cone casino.

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That's after the NFTs.

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That's after all these other things.

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And then you finally come to Jesus.

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You know, you have your moment, right?

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But yeah, so that book, when did you read that?

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I want to say, I mean, it was probably...

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coincidentally around like the covet era okay so i don't know 2020 like 21 maybe um which is

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you know years past the time when i found bitcoin so i would say i actually read the creature from

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jekyll island after i started to figure some of this stuff out but that book was extremely pivotal

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to my understanding of the economic environment,

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just of Earth.

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So, yeah, it was an eye-opening book.

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And interestingly enough,

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the quote that I put in there,

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I put that quote in there for a very specific purpose,

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and that was to argue the point of,

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I'm rejecting the premise

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that Gresham's Law must apply to Bitcoin,

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which is something that's pretty controversial

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because a lot of people like to point that out.

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They have this hesitation to spend Bitcoin,

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to use it as a currency.

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And it's a very common reason that people say

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it's because, well, it's Gresham's Law.

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But if you actually dig into that

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and start asking them how that actually applies

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and why they're actually going down that path,

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it really starts to fall apart.

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And so I have a very strong opinion

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that Gresham's Law doesn't apply to Bitcoin.

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And that's not to say that there aren't some good reasons

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to not spend Bitcoin if, you know,

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you can convince yourself that that's the case.

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But a big part of what that article was about

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was basically convincing people

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that not spending Bitcoin is illogical.

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Yeah. So in your article,

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you noted Gresham's Law as a reason.

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You noted cost, cost of transactions

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and things like that.

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Code of conduct, which is basically

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just never sell your Bitcoin.

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And it's just kind of the ethos.

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And then the taxation issue.

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We were talking about this actually just before you got here.

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And Gresham's Law, that's one of the ones I told you, like the class that I taught on this.

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We talked about that as well.

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What is?

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Gresham's Law.

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I was going to say Gresham's Law.

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Gresham's Law says that bad money pushes out good.

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It means whenever you have a money that loses value or that has some other type of characteristic that is not going to hold value, the money that stores value will be hoarded and the money that loses value will be spent.

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And this began back in the, I mean, really since money ever existed, but with the Romans and coin clipping.

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And now it's been adopted with the fiat versus Bitcoin.

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Yeah, because like if you have two coins and there is a emperor of autocrat that says the face value of these two coins is the same.

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I'm going to accept that they're both worth one coin unit.

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But one of those coins is made of pure gold.

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The other one is gold and lead or something like that.

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Then people are going to want to spend the gold on the lead coin because they're giving up less gold in each transaction.

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But it's been decreed from above that it's one unit of the coin.

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So the bad coin will circulate and the good coin will be hoarded.

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the gold coin, the pure gold.

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I want to make something clear, though.

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I'm not rejecting Gresham's law.

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Right, right.

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No, no, no.

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Gresham's law is a thing.

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I just don't think it applies to Bitcoin.

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And yeah, the reason I think it doesn't apply to Bitcoin

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is that it's not bad versus good

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because it was merely inconvenient versus convenient.

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That's what we have with fiat and Bitcoin.

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Before it was bad versus good,

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but now it's bad versus near as we can tell perfect.

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Like there are no,

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there may be flaws with Bitcoin,

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Bitcoin, but there aren't any flaws that are greater than the flaws of the thing that they are replacing, is what I would say.

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But what's your take on that, I guess?

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Well, my conclusion is that Gresham's law applies.

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Again, this is my opinion, but I believe that Gresham's law only applies because there is a difference in opportunity cost.

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so it is because uh crush under gresham's law or we could say we could even go to the example of

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you know coinage in the united states and the last you know 100 years um we we've seen this

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we've witnessed this happen where we'll take the quarter for example they took the silver out of

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the court and what happened guess what gresham's law happened right took the nickel out of the

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nickel it took the nickel out of that right so now you're you're in a situation where you could

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have two relatively identical visibly you know coins where one solid silver and the other is an

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inferior alloy now at the time where when that happened it's you know it's possible that both

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coins could have been close to the same value but silver held its value better over time and so

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over time let's just say given given a few years now you have two 25 cent quarters they're both

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25 cents but the value is different so that the cost is uh the same but the value is different

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right so the opportunity cost which would be you know how hard is it to get the silver coin versus

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how hard is it to get the inferior alloy coin those two things are different and so that is

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where grashland's law comes in is when you have one thing with one opportunity cost one thing with

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another opportunity cost and there's a third party that's imposing the value on it right so they're

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saying these are both the same yeah when we all know they're not right so we're gonna spend the

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one that we know yeah we all know this one's junk we're gonna get rid of that one with bitcoin that's

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not the case because you can spend you know 25 cents worth of bitcoin for the same opportunity

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cost you can spend 25 cents worth of fiat because of its fungibility because of its you know ability

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to come in and out because of the exchange the the fluid exchange of the assonance um and the

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fact that you can continually adjust and divide the amount of bitcoin you need to be able to send

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to make that 25 cent payment with a quarter you would be forced to clip it or melt it down

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um and recast maybe make a smaller quarter 25 cents worth of silver you can't extract 25 cents

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worth of silver from you know a quarter that's now worth a dollar in silver you know what i'm saying

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Yeah. So anyway, that is my argument. That is my explanation. And I've also kind of brought up the point that, you know, bad money drives out good money. That's not the definition of Gresham's Law. That's just kind of how we all recognize it. That is a very common characteristic of what happens with Gresham's Law. And I've also said it's kind of like gravity. We say what goes up must come down.

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I saw the textbook. Yeah, you don't open the science and math books. Oh, it's an arrow down.

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But if I'm talking to my, you know, my five year old, you know, what is gravity, daddy? Well,

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it means, you know, when stuff goes up, it comes down. Right. Yeah. That's the five year old's

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definition of gravity. But we could probably all agree that there are things that you go up.

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Yeah. It also just seems like Gresham's law is kind of like an ex post facto explanation of

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behavior that people already have. And so to say, I'm going to do something because of Gresham's

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law doesn't make sense. You're already doing the exchanges you're going to do because you perceive

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the values of the thing. And so you shouldn't say, oh, this other principle I just learned about,

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therefore I'm going to act that way. It's like, no, that principle is to explain a behavior that's

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already occurring. And we all know you can transact in Bitcoin in the way that you said,

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and it's fungible with fiat and it doesn't matter. So the reason why I have such a chip on my shoulder

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about this is because it's so easily identifiable and people say when people bring up questions yeah

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i know it's because they haven't actually put any real uh understanding of their own into the

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subject they heard somebody say it and now they're applying it yeah behavior yeah and that's why i

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have a problem with this because people are thinking for themselves when they say nice yeah

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you also had a really good line this is if i was a podcast host worth my salt i'd read it i forgot

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to take a note on it and maybe you can repeat it off the cuff it's like um you summarize it that a

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um the gresham's law is when you have something in an inferior unit of the same kind or something

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like that i wish i had that line i don't have the article in front of me it would be yeah it's kind

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of like i was describing it two different quarters yeah yeah and you just very pithily describe it in

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the article this is an article from 2023 we'll link to it but it's worth the read because you

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do a very good job of if it's hard to to get mental traction on this hearing it orally your

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article does a good job laying it out too thank you and i think so the the one thing that that was

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missing and you did a good job recounting that but the one thing that was missing was that there's a

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there's an imposed value yes so you have you have one that one thing that's inferior one thing that

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is superior but there is a third party of somebody value on it yeah so those those elements combined

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is essentially what and that third party is always going to be the government that stipulates what

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the face value of the coinage is yeah or you know what whoever's in whoever's in control of telling

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you the values it doesn't have to be a government yes it could be cattle it can be a guy selling

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cattle and saying that cow is the same right that cow yeah so yeah and so i guess if i had to like

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wrap everything up just to hopefully stay off all of the uh the trolls out there that are like oh

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this guy doesn't realize we get some trolls yeah didn't wait um gresham's law is absolutely you

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You know, it's a real thing.

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It's an economic law.

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And I believe that just natural human behavior generally always results in the same things we're seeing in Gresham's Law.

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My argument is that that is something separate from what people are thinking they're talking about when they say they can't spend their money for this reason.

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I'm okay with, you know, if you have a logical reason for not wanting to spend their money, we can talk about that.

341
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I can probably convince you otherwise.

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It's been a long time doing that.

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But, you know, I think that there's really no, once you actually work everything through and you talk everything out, if you're willing to actually go through that process of asking yourself the honest questions of, you know, is there a good reason for me not to spend Bitcoin?

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Or you could frame it, should I be spending fiat?

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Should I be spending Bitcoin?

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What is better for me?

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Right?

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You can start there.

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You don't even have to ask the question, what's better for Bitcoin?

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what's better for the central bankers we don't need to even worry about that you can just be

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completely selfish about it go down that path you know what is better for you what's going to

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preserve your value the most what's going to end up with you having the most sats on the other end

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of the table or even dollars yeah i don't even care if you're like just in this for the fiat

354
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money or fiat currency it's not real money but if you're in this for the fiat like good work work

355
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down that path too like go through that series of logical steps yeah ask yourself do i end up with

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more fiat at the end because i'm spending bitcoin and again the the another caveat to this is

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people will say you know never this is the code of conduct part right yes never never spend your

358
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bitcoin yeah i think that that's actually a helpful thing to tell somebody that's new especially

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somebody coming in from the ground level they don't have much savings you know they're just

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trying to do the you know go through the motions and do the basics of accumulating bitcoin right i

361
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I think that that's a perfectly fine framework to work from somebody that's new to this.

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But what is really important is that you are contributing to society through some method to increase the value and production of the economy where you're being rewarded in such a way that is increasing your own purchasing power.

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And so to break that down or feel back even a little bit further, you know, what you're doing is you're making money, right? And you're saving some and you're saving it in an asset that doesn't get arbitrarily inflated away from it.

364
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So what is the goal? The goal is to save more than you spend. The second goal is to save an asset that preserves its purchasing power the best. And if we can all agree that Bitcoin is going up forever in terms of fiat, we can round everything else down to zero.

365
00:28:13,860 --> 00:28:42,080
Well, one, whatever you want to frame it, right? Because, you know, the volatility is, you know, Michael Saylor would love to talk about. You can abstract all of that out, right? Bitcoin's a bumpy ride in the short term. But over the long term, if you can agree or admit or believe that Bitcoin is going to beat the dollar over a long enough time frame, then my argument would be that all of your money should be Bitcoin.

366
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So your positive case, though, for using Bitcoin as a medium of exchange, self-interested in a good way where it's about accumulating value, keeping value.

367
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Is that in your heart of hearts the reason that you spend Bitcoin on a day-to-day, for day-to-day purchases?

368
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Or is there some ideological reason behind that?

369
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Like you say you're a freedom maximalist.

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For you personally?

371
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Yeah.

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You're a freedom maximalist.

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That's a great question, by the way.

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because I think it maybe is a surprising answer.

375
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,060
That is not why I have so much passion

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in doing what I do.

377
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The reason why I am so passionate

378
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about spending Bitcoin in the circular economy

379
00:29:24,660 --> 00:29:28,000
isn't necessarily, well, I guess in a roundabout way,

380
00:29:28,140 --> 00:29:29,180
going all the way around the circle,

381
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:30,600
yes, it's about me, right?

382
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Because I want to raise my kids in a society

383
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that isn't controlled,

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where every moment of their lives is in control by a central banker,

385
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which I believe we have that right now, or at least historically speaking.

386
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I think we're transitioning away from that.

387
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,240
But historically speaking, central bankers have been at the root

388
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of controlling all aspects of our society.

389
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And it comes down to us in a very real way of losing our purchasing power,

390
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usually subconsciously.

391
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Most people aren't really aware of what's happening,

392
00:30:02,780 --> 00:30:08,860
But it manifests in so many bad behaviors that people, I guess, you know, have.

393
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:09,180
Right.

394
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:17,220
So we call this high time behavior where you're just making decisions because you can't you don't have an asset.

395
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Like if you don't make this decision now, you're going to be penalized.

396
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Yeah.

397
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,920
And that's your you're prioritizing that high time reference.

398
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And so, yes, it is selfish in such a way that I don't want that future.

399
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That's me.

400
00:30:30,820 --> 00:30:35,460
you know i could care less about anything else that's the world i want to live in right so we

401
00:30:35,460 --> 00:30:41,380
could start from that fundamental principle with that said i think in order to get to that point

402
00:30:41,380 --> 00:30:47,120
in order to achieve that goal um it's it's important for everybody else to realize that

403
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:53,920
same thing and so right now my goal is in the low-hanging fruit in my opinion is to help show

404
00:30:53,920 --> 00:31:00,880
people that this is the logical path forward for them as well because if we can all agree on that

405
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:06,000
then you know my wish comes true and hopefully at that point i've convinced you that's your wish too

406
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:13,200
and you know we can all uh move further and further away from central bank control i mean this is all

407
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:20,320
keynesian and modern monetary theory and the current environment that's dying these are all

408
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:27,160
political obstacles to Bitcoin. And all politics is local. And I truly like, as you get older,

409
00:31:27,380 --> 00:31:33,520
then you see that more and more, that truly all politics is local. And so if you want to change

410
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:38,840
something at a grand level, you know, first start with yourself, and then you start with the circular

411
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:46,300
economy around you in a way that, you know, if you show 100 people, they're going to show 100

412
00:31:46,300 --> 00:31:51,300
people they're going to show 100 people etc etc so i i really applaud that i think that that's

413
00:31:51,300 --> 00:31:58,920
that's truly the that boots on the ground that bottoms up that uh gorilla type uh approach to

414
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:04,520
to building something um but does someone then first have to have that ideology though if the

415
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:10,400
does that have to precede any sort of thing you like you come at this first as a freedom maximalist

416
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:16,020
i mean there's you know it shouldn't be this way but it is is the case that most bitcoiners come

417
00:32:16,020 --> 00:32:21,540
Bitcoin from kind of libertarian angle, maybe first as DGENs, maybe first as something like

418
00:32:21,540 --> 00:32:26,720
that. But then those that kind of center around it maybe end up in the sort of libertarian camp.

419
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:31,480
I don't think that is necessarily the case. But I guess I want to hear, like, is there an

420
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:36,980
underlying ideological perspective that brought that made you into a freedom maximalist that's

421
00:32:36,980 --> 00:32:43,880
more general or something like that, that undergirds your being a Bitcoin proponent?

422
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:51,720
I'm not sure if this answers your question, but I want to hit on some of the things that you said that made me think about something.

423
00:32:51,880 --> 00:33:03,880
But in terms of trying to communicate that message to other people, they don't necessarily have to come from the perspective of, you know, this ideological movement.

424
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:12,620
Right. I think that you can very clearly see benefits to taking steps in this direction.

425
00:33:12,620 --> 00:33:21,860
We see Square, they just ruled out their Bitcoin purchases at their POS systems with their merchants.

426
00:33:22,500 --> 00:33:26,020
And they're offering elimination of their fees.

427
00:33:26,620 --> 00:33:32,140
So right now there are zero fees if you do this with all of these transactions.

428
00:33:32,740 --> 00:33:33,860
There are no chargebacks.

429
00:33:34,660 --> 00:33:38,360
You get a pretty good amount of extra free market, essentially.

430
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:45,620
and so it is not only just in this case but in many of the other cases many many cases it is the

431
00:33:45,620 --> 00:33:51,560
path of least resistance why is that well there's no middle there's no there's no bankers to pay

432
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:56,420
there's nobody there's nobody you know there that needs to run the system and control us

433
00:33:56,420 --> 00:34:03,880
right bitcoin is open it controls itself right you know we all contribute to it to keep it running

434
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:15,160
But at the end of the day, there's not one person that is able to flip the switch for make arbitrary change that affects that affects anybody without the rest of us going along.

435
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:15,460
Yeah.

436
00:34:16,020 --> 00:34:30,646
So again the point I trying to make is I think that it is it is not just ideological It is just logical Yeah Not just ideological but just also logical But the ideology though is there are people who want somebody at the switch

437
00:34:30,646 --> 00:34:35,726
people who are comforted by a daddy, you know, who want, you know, a governmental structure.

438
00:34:36,006 --> 00:34:36,806
They want the middleman.

439
00:34:36,926 --> 00:34:37,486
They want banks.

440
00:34:37,626 --> 00:34:37,866
They're going to...

441
00:34:37,866 --> 00:34:41,126
These are only the people that grew up with somebody at the switch and they don't know different.

442
00:34:41,446 --> 00:34:42,326
Maybe that's the reason.

443
00:34:42,486 --> 00:34:45,306
But I think the ideological always precedes the logical.

444
00:34:45,466 --> 00:34:47,046
There is no purely logical is what I...

445
00:34:47,046 --> 00:34:47,966
It's kind of my default.

446
00:34:47,966 --> 00:35:09,926
Yeah. And again, this is the reason why I say I go back to the phrase of the path of least resistance is because I think we're very clearly seeing what you're talking about happening in the real world. And what does that result in? It results in more money printing, higher inflation, and this system that requires the more control. The system that is the path of more resistance.

447
00:35:09,926 --> 00:35:28,526
Yes. That one just gets further and further and further and further diverges from reality and from the other system. And it becomes more clear and more people become more aware. Adoption grows and people are going to naturally just start to wake up and see that their lives are being negatively affected.

448
00:35:28,526 --> 00:35:43,546
Like there's a tipping point for everybody. For the three of us here, we've probably reached that tipping point, right? We figured it out. Whatever that point was, maybe we were more sensitive to it. Or maybe there was something going on in our lives at the time where we realized that, you know, we need to do something to change.

449
00:35:43,546 --> 00:35:43,866
Yeah.

450
00:35:44,086 --> 00:35:44,806
And we found Bitcoin.

451
00:35:46,266 --> 00:35:59,286
I think after speaking with, you know, lots and lots of people, even very recently, you know, trying to, I've been, you know, trying to go to find Square merchants just to help onboard them and offer my help.

452
00:35:59,686 --> 00:36:06,146
It's pretty incredible to see how many people I run into that identify the problems that they're having.

453
00:36:06,646 --> 00:36:08,746
And they have real reactions to this.

454
00:36:08,746 --> 00:36:14,286
you know i've a lot of times i'll start off by saying you know you can you know you know you

455
00:36:14,286 --> 00:36:19,546
pay three percent your fees are like yeah that sucks like yeah that sucks doesn't it and like

456
00:36:19,546 --> 00:36:23,806
what about chargebacks do you pay you know do you lose a lot of money on chargebacks and people

457
00:36:23,806 --> 00:36:29,086
just like roll their eyes and like man we lose so much money on chargebacks i'm like you know you

458
00:36:29,086 --> 00:36:33,446
can flip a switch to to fix those right i'm like okay and i start talking about bitcoin and that's

459
00:36:33,446 --> 00:36:39,746
like a lot of times they're just like maybe another come back another time we'll talk about it yeah

460
00:36:39,746 --> 00:36:44,826
it's like it's they can identify the problems but they haven't experienced the pain enough

461
00:36:44,826 --> 00:36:49,766
to actually make this change even though it takes them you know i think it probably realistically

462
00:36:49,766 --> 00:36:54,026
takes two to three minutes to go into your settings and set it up the way you want to set it up

463
00:36:54,026 --> 00:36:59,586
and enable bitcoin yeah with no other changes yeah because if people at least the way uh square

464
00:36:59,586 --> 00:37:04,666
the setup, you can still receive the payment as fee of cash, U.S. dollars.

465
00:37:05,046 --> 00:37:09,286
So if you want to just take the cash and you get the benefit of the no transaction fees,

466
00:37:09,366 --> 00:37:12,486
you get the benefit of the no chargebacks, you can still get those things.

467
00:37:13,206 --> 00:37:14,926
And it's almost no work.

468
00:37:15,546 --> 00:37:20,386
But it's the process of stepping out of the comfort zone that I think people have trouble

469
00:37:20,386 --> 00:37:20,586
with.

470
00:37:20,646 --> 00:37:22,786
And that kind of, I think, hits on your point.

471
00:37:23,186 --> 00:37:23,706
Yeah, it does.

472
00:37:23,806 --> 00:37:25,126
And we were talking about that beforehand, too.

473
00:37:25,126 --> 00:37:34,126
Your article 2023, it could definitely be updated with this merchants now being able to take the middleman out and not having a very real impact in their bottom line.

474
00:37:34,686 --> 00:37:42,966
But it's also, we're talking about this before we flip the switch on record, your talk at the Kansas City Bitcoin Summit.

475
00:37:43,246 --> 00:37:43,906
That's what it was, yeah.

476
00:37:43,906 --> 00:37:50,946
you began in a very interesting way I thought where you led into Bitcoin by beginning with

477
00:37:50,946 --> 00:37:55,526
the very recent past and kind of a macro perspective of COVID some of the things that

478
00:37:55,526 --> 00:38:00,686
happened and so that's what I think is really going to flip the bigger switch in people's mind

479
00:38:00,686 --> 00:38:05,386
when you say like waking up it's going to be not just the bottom line but pulling people out of

480
00:38:05,386 --> 00:38:10,526
authoritarian structures they're very comfortable with and using as leverage things like well what

481
00:38:10,526 --> 00:38:12,466
happened during COVID, what happened with the Canadian

482
00:38:12,466 --> 00:38:14,266
truckers and things like that.

483
00:38:14,326 --> 00:38:16,066
And so your talk was just very

484
00:38:16,066 --> 00:38:18,486
effective. There's different ways to come

485
00:38:18,486 --> 00:38:20,426
at this. One is the bottom line,

486
00:38:20,506 --> 00:38:22,186
but one is I think you can

487
00:38:22,186 --> 00:38:24,486
dislodge people from

488
00:38:24,486 --> 00:38:26,506
that default framework they have of

489
00:38:26,506 --> 00:38:28,546
embracing the state. And you just did a good job at that.

490
00:38:29,266 --> 00:38:30,246
Yeah, thank you.

491
00:38:32,006 --> 00:38:32,486
So

492
00:38:32,486 --> 00:38:34,646
I think the COVID era

493
00:38:34,646 --> 00:38:37,806
looking at it

494
00:38:37,806 --> 00:38:40,386
retrospectively was kind of like

495
00:38:40,526 --> 00:39:01,946
I see it as like the soft launch of authoritarianism. It woke a lot of people up. And I think you're right. Events like this are going to be waking people up. I think a lot of Bitcoiners were made during that time frame. In fact, that's when I, like before COVID, I would have considered myself a Bitcoiner. I would have probably even said I was a Bitcoin maximalist.

496
00:39:01,946 --> 00:39:18,926
But after that time period, I look back and, you know, in hindsight, I realized like I didn't, there was still a lot I didn't understand. And it wasn't until it got really, really real for me because I was, like I said, I was a Bitcoiner during that timeframe.

497
00:39:18,926 --> 00:39:34,626
And so I kind of already had a lot of this mindset of, you know, this personal self-sovereignty that I felt like I was entitled to as a human, as an agent of this planet and as just like, you know, a free spirit of God.

498
00:39:35,006 --> 00:39:42,506
And part of that is, you know, making sure that I can do the things that I feel like I need or want to do in a free country.

499
00:39:42,506 --> 00:39:51,026
and so I can't say that this was always the case but at some point I was just like I'm not doing

500
00:39:51,026 --> 00:39:55,946
this anymore I'm not playing this game right I'm not going to give up any more of my freedoms

501
00:39:55,946 --> 00:40:04,166
and I can this was you know kind of a pretty serious moment for me but during this time

502
00:40:04,166 --> 00:40:16,926
And as I'm coming to these conclusions and making these decisions, my fiat job, they came to me and they said was send me an email.

503
00:40:16,926 --> 00:40:31,366
And they said, you know, due to the Biden administration's, you know, rule or whatever, you're going to have to do certain things by a certain date or you will no longer be employed.

504
00:40:31,366 --> 00:40:41,166
yeah and i'm reading this and i uh you know this is my job my career i've been at this company at

505
00:40:41,166 --> 00:40:47,206
this point for you know over 10 years and i'm reading this for maybe about about 10 years

506
00:40:47,206 --> 00:40:54,626
and i came to the conclusion that i was not going to comply i was not going to do it and

507
00:40:54,626 --> 00:41:02,886
And, you know, it wasn't about appeasing my employer with, you know, fake documents or something I saw people doing, stuff like that.

508
00:41:02,966 --> 00:41:11,606
It was more about, I'm going to take a stand because if I don't take a stand now, then I might not have an opportunity or chance to do that in the future.

509
00:41:12,786 --> 00:41:17,666
And it is only because of Bitcoin that I felt like I could make that decision.

510
00:41:17,666 --> 00:41:26,586
if i didn't have bitcoin in that um not not just the financial um cushion but also from the fact

511
00:41:26,586 --> 00:41:30,406
like i i knew that like i was seeing people get their bank accounts canceled right yeah

512
00:41:30,406 --> 00:41:36,426
banks were like freezing people's funds during the covet era because they were doing things that

513
00:41:36,426 --> 00:41:41,566
they didn't want them to do right it was complete draconian authoritarianism not even doing things

514
00:41:41,566 --> 00:41:47,206
saying things saying things yes saying things being things yeah exactly yeah that's a good point

515
00:41:47,206 --> 00:41:55,406
being yeah yeah um and so yeah again so you had the you know obviously i had the component of like

516
00:41:55,406 --> 00:41:59,666
well they can't freeze my bank account so i can still spend money but also the component of like

517
00:41:59,666 --> 00:42:06,086
the the infrastructure right i at this point knew like i could go buy gift cards with bitcoin right

518
00:42:06,086 --> 00:42:11,526
if i wanted to or i could go find somebody selling something for bitcoin and if i didn't have that

519
00:42:11,526 --> 00:42:18,606
that bitcoin backstop i don't know what i would have done yeah yeah because i would have been in

520
00:42:18,606 --> 00:42:26,746
a very desperate situation um and so you know i i took a bit of a tangent there but to get back

521
00:42:26,746 --> 00:42:33,666
onto the topic of of the presentation at the summit um that was kind of you know where i came

522
00:42:33,666 --> 00:42:41,166
from right that that was my um uh i guess the history that i had that led me to this path of

523
00:42:41,166 --> 00:42:46,366
trying to hopefully help see people help people see things from the way that i i see them now

524
00:42:46,366 --> 00:42:51,746
yeah um because people helped me along the way when i was going through this and and i think that

525
00:42:51,746 --> 00:42:58,426
like i like i said earlier covid is was kind of like the uh the soft launch of authoritarianism

526
00:42:58,426 --> 00:43:03,446
i think there's more coming and i think they're going to be in the form of cbdc's

527
00:43:03,666 --> 00:43:09,706
we talked about this so my uh kind of my my thesis around the presentation was this progression of

528
00:43:09,706 --> 00:43:17,026
authoritarianism transitioning into cbdc's and how bitcoin specifically used as a medium of exchange

529
00:43:17,026 --> 00:43:25,666
currency while preserving self-custody is the only way to stave off that um uh provision of

530
00:43:25,666 --> 00:43:33,666
these centralized control technologies that give the government um and authorities ultimate

531
00:43:33,666 --> 00:43:40,586
unilateral control over our very being yeah so biographically at this point you renounce your

532
00:43:40,586 --> 00:43:45,686
job you quit your employment i mean are you just totally just like nothing going on you just like

533
00:43:45,686 --> 00:43:49,666
i'm just gonna you know what happens well i shouldn't i shouldn't let you on such a cliff

534
00:43:49,666 --> 00:43:56,266
yeah let me get back to that so um i it gets i don't know this is probably like

535
00:43:56,806 --> 00:44:06,026
maybe june ish when they sent me the email and they said by october 19th or something i don't

536
00:44:06,026 --> 00:44:11,026
remember this specific date that's just a rough time frame guess but by october 19th you gotta

537
00:44:11,026 --> 00:44:17,466
you know do all these things and comply or we're gonna let you go and so i'm just like

538
00:44:17,466 --> 00:44:23,206
thinking and praying and talking with my wife and figuring out how we're going to do things and

539
00:44:23,206 --> 00:44:27,866
um anyway it gets down to two weeks and then they pulled it

540
00:44:27,866 --> 00:44:38,746
they pulled it so i still have my job okay yeah so yeah it's uh yeah yeah you stared they stared

541
00:44:38,746 --> 00:44:44,926
down the barrel though yeah yeah yeah apparently i wasn't the only one that stood up yeah but the

542
00:44:44,926 --> 00:44:48,746
funny thing is none of us were like talking about this we were all scared to death to like talk

543
00:44:48,746 --> 00:44:53,826
about it yeah yeah um and so we were all just like independently like we're just not doing it yeah

544
00:44:53,826 --> 00:44:59,846
and uh yeah it was pretty pretty awesome to see that happen because we have like so i've got like

545
00:44:59,846 --> 00:45:05,586
you know i work at like a corporate uh with you know a large corporate conglomerate but then we

546
00:45:05,586 --> 00:45:12,546
have our own you know independent uh not really independent but our own local um office and you

547
00:45:12,546 --> 00:45:19,186
know at some point the the the monster wasn't able to control the uh subordinates yeah so they

548
00:45:19,186 --> 00:45:25,046
had they added to the name which is nice yeah i think that leads into something that i find to be

549
00:45:25,046 --> 00:45:31,166
an interesting inflection point that we're at right now which is the fourth thing that you

550
00:45:31,166 --> 00:45:36,306
mentioned in your article is taxes and you list out you know here's three things you can do you

551
00:45:36,306 --> 00:45:43,206
can choose to not pay them you don't recommend you can never spend your bitcoin um maybe that's

552
00:45:43,206 --> 00:45:48,706
the thing that you can do oh or you can just pay them right so it's just kind of like this that or

553
00:45:48,706 --> 00:45:53,746
the other um also the idea of the currency swap which you kind of talk about yeah there's that

554
00:45:53,746 --> 00:46:00,626
but um it's kind of a technical thing yeah but the when steak and shake started selling burgers

555
00:46:00,626 --> 00:46:06,326
for Bitcoin. I think it was like the day after Alex Gladstein from the Human Rights Foundation,

556
00:46:06,646 --> 00:46:12,766
he retweeted somebody posting their receipt and he said, this is how change will be made because

557
00:46:12,766 --> 00:46:20,946
you know none of these people are claiming that Bitcoin on their taxes. And so that comes in with

558
00:46:20,946 --> 00:46:26,406
the do not comply thing. And it's like, no, no, no, I bought a burger. I don't need to pay tax on

559
00:46:26,406 --> 00:46:31,646
my hamburger. And so much like your situation where you're faced with it at your corporate job,

560
00:46:31,646 --> 00:46:39,066
where it turns out that the subordinates who refuse to comply don't even need to peacefully

561
00:46:39,066 --> 00:46:46,466
come together as long as there's enough of them. You know, I think this is how change is made from

562
00:46:46,466 --> 00:46:53,306
the bottoms up, is that people will, and I know that we're not supposed to say, you know, you

563
00:46:53,306 --> 00:46:54,846
You can't – well, actually, you can.

564
00:46:54,966 --> 00:47:00,846
In this country, you're supposed to be allowed to say, no, you shouldn't pay your taxes because –

565
00:47:00,846 --> 00:47:03,186
Well, you can't advocate it as a discreet act of –

566
00:47:03,186 --> 00:47:03,826
I'm sure you can.

567
00:47:03,886 --> 00:47:04,526
No, you can't.

568
00:47:04,526 --> 00:47:05,026
I can say whatever –

569
00:47:05,026 --> 00:47:06,806
It is the official position of this podcast.

570
00:47:06,926 --> 00:47:07,566
You got to pay taxes.

571
00:47:08,326 --> 00:47:09,186
I'll go on the record.

572
00:47:09,186 --> 00:47:20,266
It's a great opinion to say, look, you're in a system where the thing that you're paying taxes on is a result of the value being extracted from you.

573
00:47:20,926 --> 00:47:21,906
Like that's all –

574
00:47:21,906 --> 00:47:24,466
If you want to be a political prisoner and go to prison, I'll support you.

575
00:47:24,726 --> 00:47:26,526
You're a political person.

576
00:47:27,686 --> 00:47:28,586
I'll represent you.

577
00:47:28,586 --> 00:47:36,586
I think more so what Gladstein practically is also saying is it's not even an act of conscious noncompliance at that point.

578
00:47:36,786 --> 00:47:42,166
People are just – if enough people are paying, it's not even like – not like I'm not choosing to not pay my taxes.

579
00:47:42,346 --> 00:47:44,126
It's just like enough people are doing it.

580
00:47:44,186 --> 00:47:44,926
You forget about it.

581
00:47:44,966 --> 00:47:45,946
These exchanges happen.

582
00:47:46,226 --> 00:47:49,506
And then it's just like, oh, man, enough people are not doing it.

583
00:47:49,566 --> 00:47:51,486
Let's legalize what is de facto occurring.

584
00:47:51,486 --> 00:47:52,426
Let's make it the new norm.

585
00:47:54,446 --> 00:47:55,366
Here's what I'd say.

586
00:47:56,386 --> 00:47:58,146
This is something I feel comfortable saying.

587
00:47:58,266 --> 00:48:00,626
I don't believe taxes are constitutional.

588
00:48:00,966 --> 00:48:01,286
I don't either.

589
00:48:01,846 --> 00:48:04,166
So I think they're infringement on our rights.

590
00:48:04,926 --> 00:48:11,406
And I also feel comfortable saying that I know for a fact that, like you said, like Gladstein pointed out,

591
00:48:12,466 --> 00:48:20,366
the authorities that are responsible for collecting taxes have no chance against this movement.

592
00:48:20,366 --> 00:48:20,726
Correct.

593
00:48:21,486 --> 00:48:31,206
I think that that's going to lead to an inevitable conclusion that the administration, I guarantee you, they're all sitting around a table having the same conversation.

594
00:48:31,206 --> 00:48:34,566
They know they can't do anything about it.

595
00:48:34,606 --> 00:48:36,966
Taken down by double burgers and tallow fries.

596
00:48:37,986 --> 00:48:38,466
I love that.

597
00:48:39,026 --> 00:48:40,086
I mean, who'd have thought?

598
00:48:40,206 --> 00:48:42,126
Like, that's the bomb that gets dropped, right?

599
00:48:42,246 --> 00:48:43,126
That takes it down.

600
00:48:43,406 --> 00:48:43,866
But stay good.

601
00:48:43,866 --> 00:48:44,126
Good shake.

602
00:48:44,226 --> 00:48:45,606
I think the IRS, I love it.

603
00:48:45,606 --> 00:48:52,786
Yeah. And, you know, people forget we didn't have income tax in this country for a very, very long time.

604
00:48:52,906 --> 00:49:04,686
And when we did, this is one of the fun facts, like the game Monopoly was created partly with funding in order to get people used to the idea that you pay income tax.

605
00:49:04,786 --> 00:49:07,086
Like this is what you do now.

606
00:49:07,086 --> 00:49:15,846
And they're like, wait a second. And I can only imagine what people in the 30s thought when this came out because income tax only started in the teens or something like that.

607
00:49:16,226 --> 00:49:16,366
13.

608
00:49:16,626 --> 00:49:18,686
You know, 13. Was it the same year?

609
00:49:18,886 --> 00:49:20,826
Well, I think, yeah, it is.

610
00:49:21,126 --> 00:49:21,326
Yeah.

611
00:49:21,586 --> 00:49:21,686
Yeah.

612
00:49:21,886 --> 00:49:30,266
But, you know, can you imagine like you're talking with your grandpa and things like income tax, you know, guy that was, you know, operating in the 1880s.

613
00:49:30,286 --> 00:49:32,046
Like, why do I need income tax?

614
00:49:32,046 --> 00:49:34,766
And, you know, and then you have the same type of discussion.

615
00:49:34,866 --> 00:49:36,406
Why do I need a license to get married?

616
00:49:36,806 --> 00:49:38,226
Why do we need a license to drive a car?

617
00:49:38,306 --> 00:49:41,306
Why do I need a license to mow somebody's lawn or walk somebody's dog?

618
00:49:41,646 --> 00:49:42,846
To cut somebody's hair.

619
00:49:43,366 --> 00:49:46,866
That's a, you know, I hear Mark Andreessen talk about that on his podcast.

620
00:49:46,866 --> 00:49:55,066
I was like, look, like the amount of tuition that you have to pay in order to learn how to cut hair, how to cut hair is just insane.

621
00:49:55,526 --> 00:50:00,326
And so we just end up with all of these things stacking on top of one another, one another, one another.

622
00:50:00,326 --> 00:50:04,546
and I agree that fundamentally

623
00:50:04,546 --> 00:50:07,186
there is a reason for tax

624
00:50:07,186 --> 00:50:10,906
but that was to keep from being conquered.

625
00:50:11,046 --> 00:50:12,406
Hey, somebody's knocking at our door.

626
00:50:12,966 --> 00:50:14,566
They're going to tear your heads off

627
00:50:14,566 --> 00:50:16,526
and they're going to steal your chickens

628
00:50:16,526 --> 00:50:17,966
and they're going to rape your horses

629
00:50:17,966 --> 00:50:18,606
or whatever.

630
00:50:19,726 --> 00:50:21,266
But it's a change.

631
00:50:21,786 --> 00:50:24,306
Everybody give us some gold

632
00:50:24,306 --> 00:50:25,166
and we'll pay an army

633
00:50:25,166 --> 00:50:26,386
and we'll beat them up

634
00:50:26,386 --> 00:50:27,246
and then we'll take them off

635
00:50:27,246 --> 00:50:29,606
and then we end up in the situation

636
00:50:29,606 --> 00:50:35,326
that Eisenhower warned us against, which was like, look, this monster learned not only can it feed

637
00:50:35,326 --> 00:50:40,986
itself, it can make its own food. And so if it can make its own food and it has an insatiable appetite,

638
00:50:41,346 --> 00:50:45,206
then it's just going to keep printing money forever and ever. And it'll keep wars going

639
00:50:45,206 --> 00:50:49,366
forever and ever. And we'll never stop. You, by the way, we didn't say this. We should. Thank you

640
00:50:49,366 --> 00:50:54,126
for your service very much. Thank you. Really. Truly. I tried to enlist in the Air Force. They

641
00:50:54,126 --> 00:51:00,526
wouldn't have me um but you pay your taxes son i don't believe his taxes get out i had too many

642
00:51:00,526 --> 00:51:09,126
but no like i i just think but this is the point we're all waking up point yeah exactly it takes

643
00:51:09,126 --> 00:51:14,326
waking up to move one ideologically out of a certain position there are people who do vigorously

644
00:51:14,326 --> 00:51:19,866
endorse taxation um and they are our fellow citizens for explicitly redistributive purposes

645
00:51:19,866 --> 00:51:30,086
They want a more egalitarian society. They see that as we need to take from the rich and give to the poor. We live in not a capitalist society, but a sort of kind of quasi socialist society.

646
00:51:30,086 --> 00:51:38,486
It is a fact that many of our fellow citizens do believe the taxation is not only moral, but that it should be at a higher level.

647
00:51:39,166 --> 00:51:50,826
And so I guess my only point is that, or maybe it's a question, to be a Bitcoiner, does one also have to ideologically be a freedom maximalist to such an extent that you think that taxation is theft?

648
00:51:50,966 --> 00:51:53,126
Or does it inevitably lead one down that?

649
00:51:53,126 --> 00:51:59,726
I think you could probably answer this with something else that I like to think about.

650
00:52:00,086 --> 00:52:07,986
And that is, or recognize at least, that there is one truth, right?

651
00:52:08,166 --> 00:52:09,646
That is the definition of truth.

652
00:52:10,366 --> 00:52:11,146
There's only one of it.

653
00:52:12,146 --> 00:52:15,506
And I'm not saying that I possess the truth.

654
00:52:15,546 --> 00:52:16,166
I have my truth.

655
00:52:16,266 --> 00:52:17,086
Everybody has their own truth.

656
00:52:17,126 --> 00:52:19,746
But there is ultimately one truth.

657
00:52:20,506 --> 00:52:26,926
And because that's the case, I think that these other things do start to converge.

658
00:52:26,926 --> 00:52:43,626
And that's why you see Bitcoiners, you know, start going down this path of eating better and exercising and conducting their economic activity in a more beneficial way for themselves and the people around them.

659
00:52:44,166 --> 00:52:50,786
You see Bitcoiners just taking care of things with a more long term focused mindset.

660
00:52:50,786 --> 00:52:56,506
And, you know, people like to make fun of Bitcoiners for this because they're like, they think they're like, oh, it's a cult.

661
00:52:56,926 --> 00:53:02,666
Well, the cult is really just a bunch of people realizing the truth about a bunch of different things.

662
00:53:03,066 --> 00:53:03,986
Bitcoin is a part of that.

663
00:53:04,646 --> 00:53:17,646
And so I think it's really just a convergence of a lot of different disciplines, fields and areas that we spend time and effort and energy in our lives converging to this centralized truth.

664
00:53:17,766 --> 00:53:24,126
Whatever that truth may be, I believe Bitcoin is a part of that because it is truth in a sense.

665
00:53:24,126 --> 00:53:24,906
It's truth money.

666
00:53:24,906 --> 00:53:30,706
yeah right you can't you can't fake it like you can with fiat money fiat money is fake it's just

667
00:53:30,706 --> 00:53:37,446
it's fake yeah um it's not real right it's just it's it's completely uh it's just an illusion

668
00:53:37,446 --> 00:53:44,206
it's not money it's it's it's what the government has literally spoken into existence you know the

669
00:53:44,206 --> 00:53:52,206
word fiat that's basically what that order yeah command yeah because i said so yeah right and uh

670
00:53:52,206 --> 00:53:53,866
But Bitcoin is the opposite of that.

671
00:53:53,926 --> 00:53:54,526
It's organic.

672
00:53:54,526 --> 00:54:00,206
It became money because it just happened to possess all the qualities of a good money.

673
00:54:00,526 --> 00:54:00,606
Yeah.

674
00:54:00,826 --> 00:54:07,086
What a historical moment to live at a time when something is becoming money because the thing that measures value is changing.

675
00:54:07,786 --> 00:54:17,586
And it's going to have sociological ramifications that are going to – you talked about being a DGEN, you know, my self-deprecatory approach or initiation to Bitcoin began as a DGEN.

676
00:54:17,666 --> 00:54:19,166
We talked about that kind of general.

677
00:54:19,166 --> 00:54:24,726
we talked about brady swenson's talk that he also gave the casey bitcoin summit he talked about so

678
00:54:24,726 --> 00:54:30,906
like you know the the fiat system the way that it accounts for value also leaves the the way that we

679
00:54:30,906 --> 00:54:37,886
approach and consider time changes and talk these the high low time high time preference which one

680
00:54:37,886 --> 00:54:43,646
my time preference high bad yes socialized impatience is like golf yeah socialized impatience

681
00:54:43,646 --> 00:54:46,146
is the really good phrase that Swenson uses.

682
00:54:46,746 --> 00:54:51,386
It's not, being a degen is not like an individual failing.

683
00:54:51,626 --> 00:54:52,766
It's a socialized failing.

684
00:54:53,046 --> 00:54:55,586
We all learn about this is how you have to act

685
00:54:55,586 --> 00:54:58,066
to survive in a society that is becoming a lottery.

686
00:54:58,186 --> 00:54:59,006
It's so big right now.

687
00:54:59,006 --> 00:54:59,666
Yes, exactly.

688
00:55:00,006 --> 00:55:00,606
Everybody wants to strike it rich.

689
00:55:00,686 --> 00:55:01,746
Yeah, and so it's just,

690
00:55:01,846 --> 00:55:04,846
we're going to socialize ourselves into a new way of being

691
00:55:04,846 --> 00:55:07,946
as we interact with Bitcoin, as it gains prevalence.

692
00:55:07,946 --> 00:55:10,426
And it's a very interesting time to be alive

693
00:55:10,426 --> 00:55:11,766
and see how that's going to play out.

694
00:55:11,766 --> 00:55:25,026
The Bitcoin cult thing is interesting because it's making me think of something. We just got done talking about Nick Land's book, Zeno Systems. And in it, he explains the cathedral. Are you familiar with Nick Land?

695
00:55:25,026 --> 00:55:38,046
Okay. So he explains the cathedral, which is Curtis Yarvin's idea for the conglomeration of all the things that make up the illusion that we live under.

696
00:55:38,226 --> 00:55:45,246
The government, public relations, NGOs, all of these things that come together.

697
00:55:45,726 --> 00:55:47,926
Media, academia, all the things that form public opinion.

698
00:55:48,106 --> 00:55:49,426
All the things that come together and they say.

699
00:55:49,466 --> 00:55:50,206
Is it Bitcoin focused there?

700
00:55:50,206 --> 00:55:52,426
Yes. Yes and no.

701
00:55:52,426 --> 00:55:58,686
Like, I mean, it's a he is Nick Land is one of the most probably the deepest thinkers about Bitcoin.

702
00:55:58,686 --> 00:56:05,346
But he's also, according to Grant, who's I would I'll point to Grant because he knows philosophy far better than me.

703
00:56:05,586 --> 00:56:09,826
Nick Land is one of or at least in contention for being one of the greatest living philosophers.

704
00:56:09,946 --> 00:56:11,766
I say that one of the greatest living public philosophers.

705
00:56:11,986 --> 00:56:19,426
He's outside of academia and doing philosophy on a level where it's getting a lot of traction among the public, which is a different type of philosophy.

706
00:56:20,146 --> 00:56:24,086
But anyways, he talks about the cathedral and we bring up like Bitcoin as a cult.

707
00:56:24,086 --> 00:56:32,746
And when we view, when you can step back and you can view it as a cathedral and you can say, this is the great religion that's telling you what you need to believe in.

708
00:56:32,806 --> 00:56:35,826
And should you step out of bounds, then no, we shall smite you.

709
00:56:36,686 --> 00:56:41,286
Then it's very easy to look at Bitcoin as a cult because a cult is just a religion that you don't agree with.

710
00:56:41,566 --> 00:56:42,506
Right. And so.

711
00:56:42,826 --> 00:56:44,826
It's the state religion saying here's a heresy.

712
00:56:45,006 --> 00:56:45,666
Exactly. Yeah.

713
00:56:45,786 --> 00:56:46,946
Yeah. It's very heretical.

714
00:56:47,186 --> 00:56:47,346
Right.

715
00:56:47,426 --> 00:56:47,746
Exactly.

716
00:56:47,746 --> 00:56:53,526
And so that really strikes true to me.

717
00:56:53,766 --> 00:56:59,726
And to bang off of true that you're talking about, the greatest truth is the one that explains all else.

718
00:57:00,186 --> 00:57:02,506
It's the truth from which all the other truths spring.

719
00:57:02,666 --> 00:57:08,666
And so I think it's no wonder that when you find the truth of Bitcoin, that all of a sudden the glass shatters.

720
00:57:08,966 --> 00:57:12,326
And now you're looking at, oh, well, I have something to live for.

721
00:57:12,626 --> 00:57:13,946
I should take care of my body.

722
00:57:14,406 --> 00:57:15,686
I should take care of my relationships.

723
00:57:15,686 --> 00:57:17,726
I should take care of my spiritual relationship.

724
00:57:17,926 --> 00:57:18,906
I should take care of my house.

725
00:57:19,466 --> 00:57:21,546
You know, I should take care of my vehicle.

726
00:57:21,706 --> 00:57:22,686
I should walk my dog.

727
00:57:22,766 --> 00:57:23,806
I should do my hair.

728
00:57:23,926 --> 00:57:24,786
I should do all these things.

729
00:57:24,846 --> 00:57:31,126
And you look around and we give this, it is a negative connotation, obviously, to say degenerates.

730
00:57:31,226 --> 00:57:33,906
But these are not, as Grant points out, these are not degenerate people.

731
00:57:34,006 --> 00:57:34,926
They are you and I.

732
00:57:35,886 --> 00:57:36,626
They are we.

733
00:57:36,646 --> 00:57:38,186
People have been pushed to the end.

734
00:57:38,406 --> 00:57:38,506
Yeah.

735
00:57:38,746 --> 00:57:40,426
I'll say they're like, you know, something, something else.

736
00:57:40,766 --> 00:57:41,126
Exactly.

737
00:57:41,286 --> 00:57:41,646
Exactly.

738
00:57:42,046 --> 00:57:42,766
They're not necessarily intentional.

739
00:57:42,886 --> 00:57:43,246
Yes.

740
00:57:43,386 --> 00:57:43,746
Exactly.

741
00:57:44,166 --> 00:57:44,726
They're desperate.

742
00:57:44,726 --> 00:57:45,206
Right?

743
00:57:45,206 --> 00:57:46,526
They're socialized into it.

744
00:57:46,586 --> 00:57:51,446
They're acting as you would expect a rational agent to act given the nature of the system.

745
00:57:51,606 --> 00:57:53,066
And they're taught to act that way.

746
00:57:53,086 --> 00:57:53,966
And they're looking for hope.

747
00:57:54,126 --> 00:57:54,306
Yeah.

748
00:57:54,826 --> 00:57:57,986
And as Saylor said, hope.com, the coin is hope.

749
00:57:58,306 --> 00:58:02,646
It gives people hope to move in a different direction.

750
00:58:02,966 --> 00:58:10,646
One thing I wanted to ask you about on that object, it was the code of conduct one in your article.

751
00:58:11,386 --> 00:58:13,506
Never sell your Bitcoin, never spend your Bitcoin.

752
00:58:13,726 --> 00:58:14,866
They got Trump to say it.

753
00:58:14,866 --> 00:58:20,466
you know, say, look, there's a caveat to that now too, which is that you don't have to spend

754
00:58:20,466 --> 00:58:24,946
your Bitcoin. You can loan it against it. You can borrow against it. And so do you,

755
00:58:25,206 --> 00:58:29,526
we're kind of going through your article one by one on these four points and we're saying,

756
00:58:29,586 --> 00:58:34,166
well, Gresham's law doesn't apply. And the reason Gresham's law doesn't apply is because there is no

757
00:58:34,166 --> 00:58:39,546
outside structure that is putting a value judgment upon Bitcoin. It's doing it itself.

758
00:58:39,546 --> 00:58:40,686
that people are doing it.

759
00:58:42,006 --> 00:58:43,886
Cost, cost is not an issue.

760
00:58:44,106 --> 00:58:44,986
Cost is not an issue

761
00:58:44,986 --> 00:58:47,346
because you want to pay 3%

762
00:58:47,346 --> 00:58:49,006
on your credit card transactions

763
00:58:49,006 --> 00:58:50,106
and have chargebacks

764
00:58:50,106 --> 00:58:52,606
in a world where 3%

765
00:58:52,606 --> 00:58:54,226
is literally going to be

766
00:58:54,226 --> 00:58:55,126
for most retailers,

767
00:58:55,386 --> 00:58:56,226
their profit margin.

768
00:58:56,406 --> 00:58:57,346
You know, if you're a grocery store,

769
00:58:57,386 --> 00:58:58,066
your profit margins

770
00:58:58,066 --> 00:58:59,886
are typically one to two, right?

771
00:58:59,946 --> 00:59:02,926
So you could really revitalize

772
00:59:02,926 --> 00:59:04,906
the failing grocery store industry

773
00:59:04,906 --> 00:59:07,026
and maybe would have fewer,

774
00:59:07,746 --> 00:59:08,406
what do we call them?

775
00:59:08,406 --> 00:59:09,446
Food deserts, right?

776
00:59:10,406 --> 00:59:11,926
So cost is no longer an issue.

777
00:59:12,506 --> 00:59:14,046
Code of conduct, no longer an issue.

778
00:59:14,386 --> 00:59:17,346
Tax, we think that that's going to be taken care of from the ground up.

779
00:59:17,986 --> 00:59:20,746
So we went through your article.

780
00:59:20,866 --> 00:59:22,026
We knocked out all these things.

781
00:59:22,606 --> 00:59:23,586
None of those are a problem.

782
00:59:24,486 --> 00:59:25,866
What are the problems facing Bitcoin?

783
00:59:26,146 --> 00:59:27,546
Are there problems facing Bitcoin?

784
00:59:28,246 --> 00:59:29,126
As far as spending it?

785
00:59:29,126 --> 00:59:29,566
No, no, no.

786
00:59:30,026 --> 00:59:36,786
As far as Bitcoin becoming what we want it to become, which is the unit of account,

787
00:59:36,786 --> 00:59:40,386
the store of value,

788
00:59:41,266 --> 00:59:42,406
media of exchange,

789
00:59:42,906 --> 00:59:43,946
all of these things.

790
00:59:45,446 --> 00:59:46,646
What do you see standing

791
00:59:46,646 --> 00:59:47,826
in the way right now?

792
00:59:48,146 --> 00:59:50,226
Not necessarily as something

793
00:59:50,226 --> 00:59:53,086
that I think we would all agree

794
00:59:53,086 --> 00:59:54,626
that it's not going to be stopped.

795
00:59:54,846 --> 00:59:55,726
Like you can slow it down.

796
00:59:55,986 --> 00:59:56,646
You can't stop it.

797
00:59:56,706 --> 00:59:57,586
But what do you think

798
00:59:57,586 --> 00:59:59,846
is the next big domino to fall?

799
01:00:01,186 --> 01:00:02,486
Well, I'm actually really glad

800
01:00:02,486 --> 01:00:03,086
you asked that question

801
01:00:03,086 --> 01:00:05,466
because I think this really

802
01:00:05,466 --> 01:00:06,566
kind of points to

803
01:00:06,786 --> 01:00:09,526
the whole reason why I do what I do.

804
01:00:09,806 --> 01:00:12,266
And I actually alluded to it in the article.

805
01:00:12,566 --> 01:00:14,826
I think I may have said that like there,

806
01:00:14,946 --> 01:00:17,606
I was maybe planning on writing follow-up to it.

807
01:00:18,166 --> 01:00:20,606
I don't know if I mentioned this inside the article.

808
01:00:20,726 --> 01:00:22,666
So maybe you just happened to walk down

809
01:00:22,666 --> 01:00:26,046
the next progressive part of that path.

810
01:00:26,406 --> 01:00:29,006
But the next article I was going to write

811
01:00:29,006 --> 01:00:31,026
was about that exact topic, right?

812
01:00:31,026 --> 01:00:32,686
What are those things saying in our way?

813
01:00:32,806 --> 01:00:34,266
And kind of even reframing that,

814
01:00:34,266 --> 01:00:35,106
I was thinking about,

815
01:00:35,606 --> 01:00:36,766
I haven't written the article yet,

816
01:00:36,786 --> 01:00:37,746
I might write it someday.

817
01:00:38,346 --> 01:00:39,006
Just been.

818
01:00:39,806 --> 01:00:41,466
You're a good writer, by the way.

819
01:00:41,626 --> 01:00:41,786
Yeah.

820
01:00:41,786 --> 01:00:43,186
We read a lot of things.

821
01:00:43,626 --> 01:00:48,126
So I feel confident in saying that it's a worthy,

822
01:00:48,346 --> 01:00:48,966
it's a worthy,

823
01:00:49,066 --> 01:00:51,806
worthy compliment for me to say that you're a good writer.

824
01:00:51,926 --> 01:00:53,106
And I think you should write them.

825
01:00:53,126 --> 01:00:55,126
Both on that article and on X too.

826
01:00:55,126 --> 01:00:56,546
You just, because you have,

827
01:00:56,806 --> 01:00:58,306
you have good, strong opinions,

828
01:00:58,366 --> 01:00:59,886
you need to back them up and it's just refreshing.

829
01:01:00,446 --> 01:01:01,886
I think, I think that's, you know,

830
01:01:01,966 --> 01:01:03,786
kind of a double-edged sword for me.

831
01:01:03,846 --> 01:01:06,246
And I say, you know, what I think and feel.

832
01:01:06,786 --> 01:01:14,806
some people love that yeah some people absolutely hate it so anyway back to the point is um you know

833
01:01:14,806 --> 01:01:23,926
i wanted to follow that article up with the explanation of of why it's so important why i

834
01:01:23,926 --> 01:01:28,486
why i feel so passionate about spending that point and why i think that is a key component

835
01:01:28,486 --> 01:01:31,186
And a lot of it comes down to infrastructure.

836
01:01:32,106 --> 01:01:33,526
Okay, so what do we have?

837
01:01:33,666 --> 01:01:47,486
We have a perfect, it's close to a perfect form of money that we could possibly conceive, at least as it relates or is comparable to other forms of money.

838
01:01:47,946 --> 01:01:49,086
And that's, of course, Bitcoin.

839
01:01:49,306 --> 01:01:53,506
And we have a really good system of preserving our value into the future.

840
01:01:53,506 --> 01:02:01,306
And I don't want to discredit that by any means because I think that that is an absolutely critical component to make Bitcoin valuable, right?

841
01:02:01,366 --> 01:02:03,546
It can't preserve its value in the future.

842
01:02:04,466 --> 01:02:05,906
We probably don't really need it.

843
01:02:06,466 --> 01:02:13,366
There's, you know, there's not much need for another, you know, currency that's not going to hold its value.

844
01:02:13,366 --> 01:02:26,506
And so it comes down to really kind of the three parts of or the three aspects of money, of how we view money.

845
01:02:26,706 --> 01:02:29,586
So, yes, it's for value. So it's got the store of value component.

846
01:02:30,786 --> 01:02:33,626
You know, obviously money needs to be a medium of exchange.

847
01:02:35,606 --> 01:02:38,246
Crazy enough, there are people out there that argue that.

848
01:02:38,246 --> 01:02:43,506
but in order for money to actually be money,

849
01:02:43,826 --> 01:02:45,426
you have to be able to exchange it with people.

850
01:02:46,106 --> 01:02:47,946
And then of course there's the unit of account,

851
01:02:48,246 --> 01:02:50,926
which also kind of even falls a little bit further off

852
01:02:50,926 --> 01:02:53,066
because people say that comes later on,

853
01:02:53,206 --> 01:02:53,926
it's down the road.

854
01:02:54,626 --> 01:02:56,186
I don't want to get too much onto that

855
01:02:56,186 --> 01:02:59,386
but my lane right now is medium of exchange.

856
01:03:00,086 --> 01:03:01,126
And that's so important to me

857
01:03:01,126 --> 01:03:02,806
because I feel like it is the low-hanging fruit

858
01:03:02,806 --> 01:03:05,126
and it's the one thing that's keeping us

859
01:03:05,126 --> 01:03:06,486
from moving into a Bitcoin standard

860
01:03:06,486 --> 01:03:07,866
because we have Bitcoiners saying,

861
01:03:08,246 --> 01:03:09,406
Gresham's Law.

862
01:03:10,286 --> 01:03:12,126
Bitcoiners saying, you know,

863
01:03:12,266 --> 01:03:14,026
you never sell your Bitcoin.

864
01:03:14,626 --> 01:03:16,446
You have Bitcoiners saying

865
01:03:16,446 --> 01:03:18,506
Bitcoin is capital on currency.

866
01:03:19,226 --> 01:03:20,326
You know, when you

867
01:03:20,326 --> 01:03:22,226
do that, what you're doing is you're actually

868
01:03:22,226 --> 01:03:23,446
taking away

869
01:03:23,446 --> 01:03:26,306
the value of Bitcoin because if Bitcoin

870
01:03:26,306 --> 01:03:27,706
can't be used as a media exchange,

871
01:03:28,186 --> 01:03:30,466
my argument is that it's worth absolutely nothing.

872
01:03:31,426 --> 01:03:32,346
I think that it

873
01:03:32,346 --> 01:03:34,366
actually has to be a media exchange

874
01:03:34,366 --> 01:03:36,346
in order to be Bitcoin

875
01:03:36,346 --> 01:03:39,466
because if you can't send Bitcoin to anywhere,

876
01:03:39,646 --> 01:03:41,046
anyone, anywhere in the world

877
01:03:41,046 --> 01:03:42,646
without permission from somebody else,

878
01:03:42,866 --> 01:03:45,966
it's not a media exchange and therefore has no value.

879
01:03:46,466 --> 01:03:47,666
That's what makes Bitcoin Bitcoin.

880
01:03:47,806 --> 01:03:48,826
That is what Bitcoin is.

881
01:03:49,166 --> 01:03:51,506
It's the ability to send value to anyone,

882
01:03:52,026 --> 01:03:53,186
anywhere at any time

883
01:03:53,186 --> 01:03:54,966
without permission from somebody else.

884
01:03:55,406 --> 01:03:58,426
So that's why I'm focused on the media exchange aspect.

885
01:03:58,426 --> 01:04:00,386
I think that there's a lot of room for growth

886
01:04:00,386 --> 01:04:02,386
and that's why I talk about it

887
01:04:02,386 --> 01:04:04,386
because I don't need to convince you

888
01:04:04,386 --> 01:04:06,286
that you should save your money

889
01:04:06,286 --> 01:04:12,486
into the future that's obvious and it's it's very easy to buy bitcoin even even for the dgens right

890
01:04:12,486 --> 01:04:18,186
buy bitcoin to increase your purchasing power right number go up that's taking that marketing

891
01:04:18,186 --> 01:04:23,766
is taken care of we don't need more marketing on number i mean it wouldn't hurt but uh that's not

892
01:04:23,766 --> 01:04:28,986
you know there's not a lot of uh room for improvement on again i think the room for

893
01:04:28,986 --> 01:04:34,426
improvement is on the medium exchange side because i think there's a lot of steps we can take to help

894
01:04:34,426 --> 01:04:39,706
show people that using bitcoin as a media exchange is a good idea it's beneficial and during that

895
01:04:39,706 --> 01:04:43,786
process what we're doing is we're building out the circular economy which is building out the

896
01:04:43,786 --> 01:04:50,726
infrastructure so some practical ways to look at that are you i frame this question it's like

897
01:04:50,726 --> 01:04:57,026
you know for people who don't want to spend their bitcoin right um think about it this way you're on

898
01:04:57,026 --> 01:05:03,726
the other side of that transaction you do whatever you do you're a barber you are a janitor you're a

899
01:05:03,726 --> 01:05:11,866
you know railroad worker you're a doctor you sell trinkets on etsy do you want to accept

900
01:05:11,866 --> 01:05:22,826
u.s dollars or let me let me ask you this this way would you accept absolutely kyc free bitcoin

901
01:05:22,826 --> 01:05:28,226
from a bitcoiner for your product or service i don't think that there are any bitcoiners out

902
01:05:28,226 --> 01:05:35,106
there that would say no i mean maybe there are but probably few and far between um so frame it that

903
01:05:35,106 --> 01:05:41,006
way then put yourself on the other side right you you need to enable that person to be able to

904
01:05:41,006 --> 01:05:46,546
have that opportunity right and that's the part that's like the ideological component that's not

905
01:05:46,546 --> 01:05:51,646
like intrinsically baked into all of us that is how we build out the infrastructure that is how we

906
01:05:51,646 --> 01:05:57,466
allow somebody to say i accept bitcoin and put a bitcoin sign out you know next to their kiosk

907
01:05:57,466 --> 01:06:03,606
right and then more bitcoiners are going to come and that that is how this this movement grows and

908
01:06:03,606 --> 01:06:09,686
and how bitcoin becomes money and in other words how we reach hyper-bitcoinization or a bitcoin

909
01:06:09,686 --> 01:06:15,526
standard however you want to frame that it can't happen unless we're all using bitcoin as a medium

910
01:06:15,526 --> 01:06:21,346
exchange currency yeah it was a necessary component to this next era i think we're ready for that we're

911
01:06:21,346 --> 01:06:28,946
until early but i think we're primed and we're ripe for that movement into you know i would say

912
01:06:28,946 --> 01:06:35,206
from store value to me to move exchange i do i do agree that the unit of account component comes

913
01:06:35,206 --> 01:06:39,986
later i'm not a huge advocate for using bitcoin as the unit of account if you really want to and

914
01:06:39,986 --> 01:06:45,966
there's nothing wrong with it but from like a marketing perspective it's very difficult and

915
01:06:45,966 --> 01:06:53,386
And obviously I have software and stuff and I reach people and I can tell you that adds a lot of friction.

916
01:06:54,046 --> 01:06:57,906
So I'm perfectly fine with saying, hey, pay me $5 of Bitcoin.

917
01:06:58,146 --> 01:06:58,886
I think that's great.

918
01:06:59,366 --> 01:07:06,846
It also reminds people how much their fiat currency is losing value because now you can say, all right, it's not $5 of Bitcoin.

919
01:07:06,946 --> 01:07:07,466
Now it's $6.

920
01:07:07,606 --> 01:07:07,806
Yep.

921
01:07:08,166 --> 01:07:08,726
That's nice.

922
01:07:08,726 --> 01:07:09,006
$10.

923
01:07:09,226 --> 01:07:14,546
So it's subtly reminding people that the other side of that equation is falling.

924
01:07:14,986 --> 01:07:15,226
Yeah.

925
01:07:15,226 --> 01:07:18,386
So long, long.

926
01:07:18,386 --> 01:07:23,806
No, you are definitely a medium of exchange evangelist, like on all fronts, firing on all cylinders.

927
01:07:24,386 --> 01:07:30,426
I mean, you mentioned supporting the circular economy you brought as a gift for us.

928
01:07:30,426 --> 01:07:31,206
This is very nice.

929
01:07:31,286 --> 01:07:34,546
This humble podcast, some ground beef that you bought with Bitcoin.

930
01:07:35,306 --> 01:07:38,586
And you are you mentioned the software you're doing.

931
01:07:38,586 --> 01:07:47,966
You have the MANO wallet enabling medium of exchange, KYC, free and just simple to use your orange pilling merchants.

932
01:07:49,746 --> 01:07:53,586
One thing I want to know if this fits it, you're writing articles about medium of exchange.

933
01:07:53,846 --> 01:07:58,506
Another piece I wanted to know as far as the education, I think in the talk you mentioned you went to Africa.

934
01:07:58,806 --> 01:08:00,066
Was that part of that?

935
01:08:00,226 --> 01:08:01,906
I didn't physically go to Africa.

936
01:08:01,906 --> 01:08:08,546
I've been an educator for a program called Bitcoin Safari TZ, TZ standing for Tanzania.

937
01:08:08,586 --> 01:08:14,626
yeah um and so i've partnered up with them for a few of their courses um and hopefully we'll do

938
01:08:14,626 --> 01:08:18,006
more in the future too but we've had a total of three cohorts and i've been able to be a part of

939
01:08:18,006 --> 01:08:24,306
two of them um and so i teach bitcoin using the uh me premier bitcoin you may know yeah they're

940
01:08:24,306 --> 01:08:28,806
all they also call it the my first bitcoin program it's based out of el salvador so we use that

941
01:08:28,806 --> 01:08:33,506
curriculum and what is that curriculum kind of oriented to to get people using it like as a

942
01:08:33,506 --> 01:08:35,546
of exchange or what's that? I gotta be honest, it is

943
01:08:35,546 --> 01:08:37,286
all-inclusive. It is great.

944
01:08:37,546 --> 01:08:39,486
So if you haven't dove into

945
01:08:39,486 --> 01:08:41,526
that, even just, no matter what level you

946
01:08:41,526 --> 01:08:53,152
are I will say like it taught me a lot And I would consider myself pretty far down the line as far as my understanding of Bitcoin but it was even challenging it was a challenge for me uh as part of this

947
01:08:53,152 --> 01:08:59,732
education program um to teach this to other people so it challenged me um to learn more uh it's it's

948
01:08:59,732 --> 01:09:05,192
it's very well thought out and very well done uh but it covers everything I mean you the intent

949
01:09:05,192 --> 01:09:10,032
is to go into this course not knowing anything about Bitcoin or really being anywhere on the

950
01:09:10,032 --> 01:09:15,872
spectrum are bringing you up to kind of almost an expert level right so somebody that's been in

951
01:09:15,872 --> 01:09:21,492
this space for a very long time and understands the intricacies of the the economics of bitcoin

952
01:09:21,492 --> 01:09:27,152
the technical aspects of bitcoin um you know using bitcoin of course that's a very surface level thing

953
01:09:27,152 --> 01:09:32,292
but i mean it gets deep it's really deep so you go into all of the uh the tech i mean by the time

954
01:09:32,292 --> 01:09:37,412
you're done with this course you could essentially theoretically conceive bitcoin from there yeah and

955
01:09:37,412 --> 01:09:44,732
It's, I mean, the level that it's lodged at is somebody who is like high school or above kind of.

956
01:09:44,912 --> 01:09:45,332
Let's see.

957
01:09:45,412 --> 01:09:45,552
Yeah.

958
01:09:45,652 --> 01:09:45,832
Yeah.

959
01:09:45,832 --> 01:09:48,512
Probably high school, college, adult.

960
01:09:48,812 --> 01:09:49,032
Yeah.

961
01:09:49,112 --> 01:09:50,032
It's for adults.

962
01:09:51,552 --> 01:09:51,892
Yeah.

963
01:09:52,052 --> 01:09:54,732
Young kids probably, maybe they, I don't know.

964
01:09:54,792 --> 01:09:57,532
They may have a kid's version of the curriculum or something.

965
01:09:57,892 --> 01:09:59,552
I'm not 100% positive of that.

966
01:09:59,552 --> 01:10:03,772
But yeah, it's probably more of like an adult type oriented class.

967
01:10:03,952 --> 01:10:04,032
Yeah.

968
01:10:04,032 --> 01:10:10,192
Yeah, that's very interesting, like the systematic ways to get a Bitcoin related education, because we kind of all come at it as a patchwork.

969
01:10:10,192 --> 01:10:14,192
Like you mentioned being onboarded by Investopedia articles about proof of work.

970
01:10:14,192 --> 01:10:17,272
And I kind of picked up random books, saw stuff on X.

971
01:10:17,812 --> 01:10:20,212
But there is that curriculum people can use.

972
01:10:20,372 --> 01:10:26,552
And the resistance money folks at the University of Wyoming, the Bitcoin Institute they have there, they have a public syllabus.

973
01:10:26,552 --> 01:10:32,792
It's kind of like college student level, really holistic, the economics, the philosophy, the history, all that.

974
01:10:32,792 --> 01:10:41,272
So we're going to kind of, I think as we move forward, maybe get these systematized bodies of knowledge or ways to approach Bitcoin so you get this holistic framing.

975
01:10:41,752 --> 01:10:47,792
And it's not just like everybody passes through the same phases of shit coining and then this and that and then kind of stumble into it.

976
01:10:48,272 --> 01:10:53,412
Yeah, I think one thing to mention is like this course that we're talking about, it's like it's free.

977
01:10:53,852 --> 01:10:54,452
Yeah, nice.

978
01:10:56,092 --> 01:10:57,792
I know they do take donations.

979
01:10:58,132 --> 01:11:02,132
So if you're the donating type, just shout out to them.

980
01:11:02,132 --> 01:11:05,292
They do a really good job. Bitcoin, Safari, TZ, Kool-Aid, Khan X.

981
01:11:05,952 --> 01:11:10,892
But educating people in Eastern Africa, right?

982
01:11:10,952 --> 01:11:14,752
These are actually, in my opinion, some of the people that need Bitcoin the most

983
01:11:14,752 --> 01:11:20,352
because their financial system is so fractured.

984
01:11:21,432 --> 01:11:26,352
And the problems that we're seeing here with our Federal Reserve in the United States,

985
01:11:26,352 --> 01:11:32,092
our central bank, is not incomparable to the amount of trouble that they're going through.

986
01:11:32,132 --> 01:11:32,972
with their central banks.

987
01:11:34,352 --> 01:11:37,172
You know, some of these Eastern African countries,

988
01:11:37,172 --> 01:11:39,872
they're going through new financial regimes

989
01:11:39,872 --> 01:11:41,332
every few years.

990
01:11:42,172 --> 01:11:45,012
And Bitcoin to these people

991
01:11:45,012 --> 01:11:49,252
is a lot less on the capital side

992
01:11:49,252 --> 01:11:51,012
and more on the currency side, right?

993
01:11:51,072 --> 01:11:52,532
So people just need something

994
01:11:52,532 --> 01:11:54,752
that they can use to exchange value.

995
01:11:55,532 --> 01:11:58,152
And their first thought isn't,

996
01:11:58,572 --> 01:11:59,812
how do I save for retirement?

997
01:11:59,812 --> 01:12:06,032
You know, that's a, that's a, as maybe Gladstein may put, you know, that's our financial privilege, right?

998
01:12:06,372 --> 01:12:12,652
We can, we can think about how we're going to retire and pass our, you know, inheritance down to our kids, you know.

999
01:12:13,012 --> 01:12:13,732
Good problems to have.

1000
01:12:13,952 --> 01:12:14,812
Good problems to have.

1001
01:12:14,932 --> 01:12:15,052
Yeah.

1002
01:12:15,132 --> 01:12:21,432
But, you know, people like most of the people that I teach in these courses, they just want to be able to pay somebody for their food for that day.

1003
01:12:21,492 --> 01:12:21,772
Yeah.

1004
01:12:21,912 --> 01:12:23,712
And not have a government be able to steal from them.

1005
01:12:23,712 --> 01:12:23,952
Yeah.

1006
01:12:23,952 --> 01:12:31,912
um so uh it is it is really nice to see that side of things because we don't see that over here um

1007
01:12:31,912 --> 01:12:38,832
we were joking earlier about you know how i had been approaching people to adopt bitcoin like cash

1008
01:12:38,832 --> 01:12:43,612
out merchant or that square merchants and you know they acknowledge these problems and they kind of

1009
01:12:43,612 --> 01:12:48,072
laugh them off right you know these these people in these other countries that are much less

1010
01:12:48,072 --> 01:12:53,112
financially fortunate than us this is very serious yeah and they're very passionate about this so

1011
01:12:53,112 --> 01:13:03,232
So if you haven't experienced, you know, looking at money and Bitcoin through the lens of, you know, one of these other places on Earth, it doesn't have to be East Africa.

1012
01:13:03,412 --> 01:13:04,432
It could be, you know, anywhere.

1013
01:13:05,572 --> 01:13:10,032
I really encourage people to maybe just read Alex Velasquez's book.

1014
01:13:10,112 --> 01:13:12,892
That's probably a good place to start following him.

1015
01:13:13,552 --> 01:13:15,752
But it really does change you.

1016
01:13:15,752 --> 01:13:16,192
Yeah.

1017
01:13:16,772 --> 01:13:22,532
In Africa, one of the books that we read early on, there was an article in that paper.

1018
01:13:23,152 --> 01:13:27,412
National security and something, something, something, Bitcoin, something.

1019
01:13:27,812 --> 01:13:27,852
Yeah.

1020
01:13:28,332 --> 01:13:30,492
Digital money and I can't remember.

1021
01:13:30,752 --> 01:13:33,212
But yeah, anyway, this guy lays it out.

1022
01:13:33,412 --> 01:13:36,272
A former diplomat who had spent most of his career in Africa.

1023
01:13:36,652 --> 01:13:37,312
It's a nice collection.

1024
01:13:37,692 --> 01:13:37,992
Yeah.

1025
01:13:38,132 --> 01:13:40,092
We got the Bitcoin bookshelf coming up here.

1026
01:13:40,312 --> 01:13:45,432
This Annie, who you met, she makes Bitcoin-related art and other art too.

1027
01:13:45,432 --> 01:13:46,112
You got this B.

1028
01:13:46,252 --> 01:13:46,892
It's classy.

1029
01:13:47,412 --> 01:13:47,792
So, yeah.

1030
01:13:47,872 --> 01:13:49,172
Does she have a website?

1031
01:13:49,552 --> 01:13:50,152
She does.

1032
01:13:50,312 --> 01:13:51,032
She's an Etsy person.

1033
01:13:51,192 --> 01:13:51,312
Yeah.

1034
01:13:51,372 --> 01:13:53,712
If you want some Bitcoin stuff, she's thinking about some new ways to do it.

1035
01:13:53,732 --> 01:13:55,192
Maybe a matte black behind it.

1036
01:13:55,312 --> 01:13:55,652
Kind of.

1037
01:13:55,892 --> 01:13:56,092
Yeah.

1038
01:13:56,652 --> 01:13:57,692
But yeah, it's pretty long.

1039
01:13:58,452 --> 01:14:03,372
But anyway, he noted like, I can't remember the guy's name right now.

1040
01:14:03,452 --> 01:14:04,172
It's failing me.

1041
01:14:04,252 --> 01:14:09,352
But anyways, he noted that Africa, in his belief, is that's the battle now.

1042
01:14:09,872 --> 01:14:10,592
It's the youngest.

1043
01:14:11,232 --> 01:14:13,112
It's the youngest continent by far.

1044
01:14:13,112 --> 01:14:21,572
So they have the most upward mobility in terms of being able to grow their workforce into something useful.

1045
01:14:21,952 --> 01:14:25,052
Whether or not AI takes care of that is another thing.

1046
01:14:25,112 --> 01:14:29,112
But also hugely rich nation in terms of natural resources and stuff.

1047
01:14:29,232 --> 01:14:32,672
But there is a battle going on right now between the U.S. and China.

1048
01:14:32,792 --> 01:14:40,772
China trying to export turnkey autocracy to Africa in order to eventually get, you know, military bases on the west side of Africa.

1049
01:14:40,772 --> 01:14:51,092
And as he put it in his paper, you know, you're fighting someone who's exporting a nearly perfect system of turnkey autocracy.

1050
01:14:51,312 --> 01:14:55,152
You don't fight that with a lesser version of autocracy.

1051
01:14:55,492 --> 01:14:57,772
You have to fight that with maximal freedom.

1052
01:14:58,392 --> 01:15:05,952
And so you have to fight that with Bitcoin because that right now is the thing that's standing in between us and China.

1053
01:15:05,952 --> 01:15:11,832
another interesting part about his paper too like as far as bitcoin in africa was the ethos of africa

1054
01:15:11,832 --> 01:15:16,672
being community village oriented and how that informs the growth of the bitcoin protocol over

1055
01:15:16,672 --> 01:15:21,172
there he talks about fediment as a kind of community oriented around a community bank

1056
01:15:21,172 --> 01:15:27,372
model on the second layer for using um creating like he meant a currency within the fediment or

1057
01:15:27,372 --> 01:15:30,992
something like that and i don't know perfectly how it operates but it's just interesting how

1058
01:15:30,992 --> 01:15:36,412
regionally people's like the different ways that they have organized in their society will be

1059
01:15:36,412 --> 01:15:41,352
differentiated ways that they interact with bitcoin on second layer protocols how they're

1060
01:15:41,352 --> 01:15:47,072
comfortable using and transacting you know using the value so yeah i'm probably gonna get skin to

1061
01:15:47,072 --> 01:15:55,712
life for saying this because i'm you guys might see but i think uh the like fedements and just

1062
01:15:55,712 --> 01:16:00,512
federated systems and in cash and that sort of thing it reminds me of a lot of wildcat banking

1063
01:16:00,512 --> 01:16:01,892
in the U.S.

1064
01:16:02,092 --> 01:16:05,452
And I think that that's going to be,

1065
01:16:05,972 --> 01:16:06,712
that's like,

1066
01:16:06,832 --> 01:16:07,972
that's going to be a huge part

1067
01:16:07,972 --> 01:16:09,172
of our future.

1068
01:16:09,712 --> 01:16:11,752
I do think that we're really early in that,

1069
01:16:12,332 --> 01:16:15,072
but I have so many like high aspirations

1070
01:16:15,072 --> 01:16:15,972
for what that's,

1071
01:16:16,372 --> 01:16:18,312
what the possibilities are for that to become.

1072
01:16:18,432 --> 01:16:20,372
And again, you know,

1073
01:16:20,452 --> 01:16:23,152
maybe not the best use case for everything,

1074
01:16:23,532 --> 01:16:25,952
but for very specific cases,

1075
01:16:26,152 --> 01:16:27,972
right now it's already solving

1076
01:16:27,972 --> 01:16:28,912
a lot of problems.

1077
01:16:28,912 --> 01:16:41,592
You know, I saw on a video, this was probably maybe almost a year and a half, probably a year and a half old, of somebody in some country in Africa.

1078
01:16:41,592 --> 01:16:44,412
I forget exactly which country it was,

1079
01:16:44,832 --> 01:16:46,972
but you could tell that it was, you know,

1080
01:16:47,072 --> 01:16:51,612
very, you know, not,

1081
01:16:51,972 --> 01:16:54,912
they were not up to, you know,

1082
01:16:54,932 --> 01:16:56,112
the standards of, you know,

1083
01:16:56,212 --> 01:16:59,132
a local, you know, McDonald's here

1084
01:16:59,132 --> 01:16:59,872
in the United States, right?

1085
01:16:59,932 --> 01:17:00,972
We're talking like, you know,

1086
01:17:01,272 --> 01:17:03,772
dirt floor, you know, no walls, right?

1087
01:17:03,852 --> 01:17:06,272
This is just such a hut and, you know,

1088
01:17:06,412 --> 01:17:09,032
a very destitute area.

1089
01:17:10,032 --> 01:17:11,452
And it's a, like,

1090
01:17:11,592 --> 01:17:19,372
a kid and he's buying little donuts for like i think it was like five sats each

1091
01:17:19,372 --> 01:17:26,072
five satoshis or donut and they were using um e-cash to do it and that's that's a case where

1092
01:17:26,072 --> 01:17:34,232
you know e-cash is is needed it's necessary because um you know otherwise you're relying on

1093
01:17:34,232 --> 01:17:42,852
a centralized custodial lightning wallet right i mean even mana isn't suited to make five sat

1094
01:17:42,852 --> 01:17:47,992
transactions right now very easily um you know it's great for buying a coffee and for doing a

1095
01:17:47,992 --> 01:17:54,712
lot of things that we use money for here and and this country wherever this was if you're buying

1096
01:17:54,712 --> 01:18:01,272
you know a donut that's essentially you know worth less than a penny right that's uh you know

1097
01:18:01,272 --> 01:18:03,872
a very good use case for eCash.

1098
01:18:04,152 --> 01:18:04,312
Yeah.

1099
01:18:04,432 --> 01:18:05,212
Or I would say.

1100
01:18:05,232 --> 01:18:06,012
Yeah, no, definitely.

1101
01:18:06,132 --> 01:18:06,632
That's awesome.

1102
01:18:07,212 --> 01:18:09,592
I think one of the things we talked about earlier

1103
01:18:09,592 --> 01:18:12,272
was the way that to onboard people,

1104
01:18:12,432 --> 01:18:14,312
the thing that you're drawing them right now

1105
01:18:14,312 --> 01:18:16,652
to using like flipping the switch on Square

1106
01:18:16,652 --> 01:18:18,512
so that they can receive Bitcoin payments

1107
01:18:18,512 --> 01:18:20,432
is just that, oh, it's cheaper, right?

1108
01:18:20,612 --> 01:18:21,692
It's 3%.

1109
01:18:21,692 --> 01:18:22,952
They don't take anything away.

1110
01:18:23,052 --> 01:18:23,972
You don't get the chargebacks.

1111
01:18:24,212 --> 01:18:29,992
But, you know, I think in sales,

1112
01:18:29,992 --> 01:18:31,632
I've worked in sales for most of my life.

1113
01:18:33,132 --> 01:18:36,732
Selling on cheaper is never a good option, right?

1114
01:18:36,872 --> 01:18:38,972
Because the other guy always comes cheaper.

1115
01:18:39,152 --> 01:18:45,112
And you can foresee a scenario where there's a CBDC and they're like, oh, well, CBDC is here.

1116
01:18:45,612 --> 01:18:47,432
It's a 0% transactions, you know.

1117
01:18:47,532 --> 01:18:48,952
So that's not the way.

1118
01:18:48,952 --> 01:18:59,152
I think the thing that's in the mana wallet that I have shown other people as like, this is the thing that really sets it apart to me.

1119
01:18:59,992 --> 01:19:07,792
And this goes along with an interview that we did early on with Ivan Makadonsky, who's the chief of staff of Breeze, which is a lightning.

1120
01:19:08,072 --> 01:19:08,832
Yeah, good afternoon, right?

1121
01:19:09,892 --> 01:19:19,412
And he had written a series of articles justifying his belief why split payments is the ultimate killer feature of Bitcoin.

1122
01:19:19,972 --> 01:19:21,552
And I had thought about this.

1123
01:19:23,132 --> 01:19:28,312
Your Manna wallet allows me to, and I'm going to use it, by the way, tomorrow at our Christmas party.

1124
01:19:28,412 --> 01:19:29,912
It's also the official wallet of the podcast.

1125
01:19:29,992 --> 01:19:51,532
But, you know, it allows me to very easily create a point of sale system, put my items in there and not just put my items in there, but I can put your items, his items, her items, and they can each go to the individual addresses.

1126
01:19:52,152 --> 01:19:58,372
And this to me, Ivan's the one that really got me thinking about this, but this is where we all become owners.

1127
01:19:58,372 --> 01:20:16,652
This is where we all become, instead of the restaurant that is owned by the guy who wanted to start a restaurant and they start out as the cook and then they had to hire an accountant and they had to hire somebody to wait and they had to hire somebody to do dishes and they had to hire security, et cetera, et cetera, the plumber, everything else.

1128
01:20:17,532 --> 01:20:23,772
Now you've got the guy who wants to be a chef and they can be back there in the kitchen.

1129
01:20:23,772 --> 01:20:31,352
and when the bill comes, they pay their bill and this amount goes to the chef and this amount goes

1130
01:20:31,352 --> 01:20:35,972
to the waitress and this amount goes to the person that bakes the pie and this amount goes to the

1131
01:20:35,972 --> 01:20:41,072
guy that owns the building and this amount goes to the accountant that does it. And so it allows

1132
01:20:41,072 --> 01:20:49,112
us to seamlessly split all of this in, I hate this word now because it's been so abused, but in an

1133
01:20:49,112 --> 01:20:56,272
equitable way yeah right where we're all getting paid for what we contributed um you've convinced

1134
01:20:56,272 --> 01:21:02,132
me by the way through the course of the conversation that the means of exchange is the manner in which

1135
01:21:02,132 --> 01:21:08,912
bitcoin becomes everything that we want it to be that it has to be that way we cannot get to a unit

1136
01:21:08,912 --> 01:21:17,032
of account we cannot get we well honestly we won't even get to a a long-term uh store of value

1137
01:21:17,032 --> 01:21:23,152
because it'll just be hoarded and it'll be hoarded and then it'll be centralized, right?

1138
01:21:23,532 --> 01:21:28,572
And so I think you're absolutely right that it's the means of exchange,

1139
01:21:28,772 --> 01:21:31,512
but I don't think it's through the lower fees.

1140
01:21:31,512 --> 01:21:36,972
I think it's through the interoperability of being able to split and divide these payments amongst people.

1141
01:21:37,212 --> 01:21:42,512
And credit to Ivan for bringing this up and to you for building the thing,

1142
01:21:43,112 --> 01:21:45,352
which is, it's so easy to use.

1143
01:21:45,452 --> 01:21:46,192
It's so incredible.

1144
01:21:46,192 --> 01:21:49,992
Your daughter is the one who showed it to me and explained it to.

1145
01:21:50,072 --> 01:21:50,572
She's nine.

1146
01:21:51,012 --> 01:21:51,672
She's nine.

1147
01:21:52,092 --> 01:21:56,672
So we're talking about like, oh, you know, this probably need to be high school age.

1148
01:21:56,812 --> 01:21:57,272
No, no, no.

1149
01:21:57,312 --> 01:22:03,412
There's a nine-year-old out here explaining to people how in 30 seconds you can set up your own point of sale system.

1150
01:22:03,772 --> 01:22:04,952
You can receive sats.

1151
01:22:05,312 --> 01:22:06,732
You can get them free of charge.

1152
01:22:06,872 --> 01:22:08,192
Nobody's taking anything out of it.

1153
01:22:08,252 --> 01:22:09,472
They go direct into your wallet.

1154
01:22:09,472 --> 01:22:12,012
And not only that, you're baking pies.

1155
01:22:12,152 --> 01:22:12,952
He's making bread.

1156
01:22:13,072 --> 01:22:14,872
And I'm frying up steaks.

1157
01:22:14,872 --> 01:22:22,832
and we can all get paid for the meal equal to what we contributed you know so it's it's absolutely

1158
01:22:22,832 --> 01:22:27,652
that that to me by the way that's my favorite part of mana that's that is the coolest thing

1159
01:22:27,652 --> 01:22:32,452
that i think you built it you don't need square i love to get it yeah yeah you can have square but

1160
01:22:32,452 --> 01:22:37,312
you don't need it yeah yeah square square is great it has a lot of things that mana doesn't have

1161
01:22:37,312 --> 01:22:43,232
but not everybody can use square not everybody has square and if you don't have square mana is

1162
01:22:43,232 --> 01:22:47,792
a really good option. I'm glad you said that because that makes me feel really good because

1163
01:22:47,792 --> 01:22:54,852
I think personally, I think that is our most underused part of our app. Yeah, people are using

1164
01:22:54,852 --> 01:22:59,432
it, but I think it's in terms of how much value you can get out of something. There's just not

1165
01:22:59,432 --> 01:23:05,312
enough people using it. It's a very, I mean, it's don't, I don't want to like over-exaggerate

1166
01:23:05,312 --> 01:23:10,512
things here. It's simple. It's not like, I mean, it's fairly feature rich. We've got taxes,

1167
01:23:10,512 --> 01:23:29,812
We've got tips. You can add your own custom fees. We have receipts baked into the lightning, the invoice memo. You can put your pictures in there. You can do receipts, tallying. So it is capable, but it is very simple.

1168
01:23:29,812 --> 01:23:37,412
Right. So if you're, you know, a large franchise business right now, I mean, I think we're going to get to that point at some point.

1169
01:23:37,972 --> 01:23:41,472
But right now, man, it's great for like a small mom and pop shop.

1170
01:23:42,832 --> 01:23:56,672
That's like the sweet spot right now, like a farmer's market type thing or you've got like a little kiosk or stand or something where you sell stuff or you're a barber or you're, you know, you have a we have a musician.

1171
01:23:56,672 --> 01:23:58,032
Yeah, artist. Yeah, exactly.

1172
01:23:58,032 --> 01:24:05,372
that's the yeah chiropractor we have you know i know chiropractor doctor um you know offering

1173
01:24:05,372 --> 01:24:11,072
services that way um some of our customers are also i say customers we don't have customers just

1174
01:24:11,072 --> 01:24:16,912
people use their software of your cool right yeah um yeah you don't you don't make a hammer and then

1175
01:24:16,912 --> 01:24:24,492
say this is a customer of my hammer uh yeah they're these businesses these merchants um whatever

1176
01:24:24,492 --> 01:24:31,912
they you know they are um food trucks um anyway just kind of going over since you pointed that

1177
01:24:31,912 --> 01:24:38,252
out um not a lot of people realize that that powerful tool is baked into this wallet um

1178
01:24:38,252 --> 01:24:42,752
and there should definitely be more people using it in my opinion which by the way shout out to

1179
01:24:42,752 --> 01:24:48,232
square and the block and spiral team they uh they actually uh featured mana on their website

1180
01:24:49,132 --> 01:24:49,792
So, yeah.

1181
01:24:50,072 --> 01:24:50,372
Dude.

1182
01:24:50,832 --> 01:24:51,232
No way.

1183
01:24:51,312 --> 01:24:51,492
Yeah.

1184
01:24:51,772 --> 01:24:52,452
That's amazing.

1185
01:24:52,672 --> 01:24:53,392
That is really cruel.

1186
01:24:53,492 --> 01:24:53,792
Okay.

1187
01:24:53,872 --> 01:24:54,872
So I want to ask this.

1188
01:24:55,292 --> 01:25:09,272
So Manna, I want to ask about the growth that Manna is experiencing because the reason I, because the other day I looked up, what is the growth of the transaction networks like MasterCard and Visa and Lightning?

1189
01:25:09,872 --> 01:25:16,532
MasterCard and Visa, they grew about 11, 12% this year, which that's just literally the inflation.

1190
01:25:16,532 --> 01:25:18,592
Like prices went up that much.

1191
01:25:18,812 --> 01:25:21,592
So that's how much their transaction throughput went up.

1192
01:25:22,332 --> 01:25:23,532
Lightning went up 200%.

1193
01:25:24,312 --> 01:25:30,172
What kind of growth are you experiencing with Mana Wallet?

1194
01:25:30,312 --> 01:25:30,792
Keep talking.

1195
01:25:30,972 --> 01:25:31,752
I'll give my numbers.

1196
01:25:32,012 --> 01:25:34,732
Here's a question, though, that I think is really interesting.

1197
01:25:35,012 --> 01:25:36,552
I have a question that builds into this one.

1198
01:25:36,612 --> 01:25:44,752
Just tying it all biographically, when do you start working on Mana in relation to kind of your Bitcoin journey and things that happened in COVID?

1199
01:25:44,752 --> 01:25:48,672
and then building, crescendoing into this business taking off.

1200
01:25:50,292 --> 01:25:51,132
Okay, sorry.

1201
01:25:51,272 --> 01:25:52,292
I wanted to get this number.

1202
01:25:52,652 --> 01:25:56,692
We're growing right now like 572% month over month.

1203
01:25:56,932 --> 01:25:58,232
Month over month.

1204
01:25:58,432 --> 01:25:59,652
Yeah, so it's great.

1205
01:25:59,652 --> 01:26:01,892
That was worth it.

1206
01:26:02,012 --> 01:26:03,332
That was worth it.

1207
01:26:03,712 --> 01:26:04,372
Yeah, yeah.

1208
01:26:04,892 --> 01:26:06,192
I mean, we're still really small.

1209
01:26:06,332 --> 01:26:06,592
Right.

1210
01:26:06,792 --> 01:26:11,492
So a lot of growth early on, but that'll, of course, taper off as time goes.

1211
01:26:11,492 --> 01:26:20,212
But I mean, I just like right now, I mean, I'll be honest, like we're not like making money or losing money.

1212
01:26:20,312 --> 01:26:24,852
Right. So we're not profitable or anything we're doing is we're just getting a tool out there that gives people freedom.

1213
01:26:25,152 --> 01:26:28,872
And that's what makes me happy. You know, that's why I built this business.

1214
01:26:28,872 --> 01:26:32,652
It wasn't to get rich. It was to obviously solve the problems that we've been talking about.

1215
01:26:32,732 --> 01:26:37,652
I saw a problem. I didn't have a solution for it. I wanted to help.

1216
01:26:37,652 --> 01:26:45,192
In fact, I was going to tackle this objective, you know, as my like way to give back to Bitcoin and onboarding people.

1217
01:26:45,572 --> 01:26:48,172
So I just wanted to go around and be like a Bitcoin evangelist and onboard people.

1218
01:26:48,312 --> 01:26:56,952
But I kept running into these problems with onboarding people with these wallets that were, you know, the best ones were all centralized and all had custody, right?

1219
01:26:57,092 --> 01:26:58,932
You had to ask these people for permission.

1220
01:26:59,132 --> 01:27:00,852
They monitored or could surveil your data.

1221
01:27:00,892 --> 01:27:01,732
They could sell your data.

1222
01:27:02,152 --> 01:27:03,652
You know, it's just all really bad stuff.

1223
01:27:03,692 --> 01:27:05,892
And I never felt comfortable recommending that to people.

1224
01:27:05,892 --> 01:27:29,072
And during the time when I started building mana, the self-custodial options existed. And don't let me like degrade or demean anything that these companies have done because they're great tools. But I also had problems with them, mostly from like the learning curve, right? The barriers to entry were just a little bit higher than I could really get people to wrap their minds around.

1225
01:27:29,072 --> 01:27:48,072
So they have improved. And now I think there are a lot of a lot of really great Bitcoin wallets that work very similarly to Manna. The environment was just a lot different back then. So that's kind of why I built Manna was because I needed a solution that didn't exist at the time.

1226
01:27:48,072 --> 01:27:57,252
um and so again my my excitement enthusiasm around the growth isn't about you know fantastic

1227
01:27:57,252 --> 01:28:03,212
wealth or whatever it's it's about spreading for you yeah so you're not losing money you're

1228
01:28:03,212 --> 01:28:08,332
investing in your freedom of maximalism right it goes back to really yeah well like we were

1229
01:28:08,332 --> 01:28:12,972
talking about earlier you know it's it's selfish because i have this world you know fantasy world

1230
01:28:12,972 --> 01:28:17,632
that i want to live in yeah and that's what i'm investing into yeah right and i say fantasy in the

1231
01:28:17,632 --> 01:28:22,272
sense that like people might think that i'm thinking that that's never going to happen i'm

1232
01:28:22,272 --> 01:28:27,172
doing everything i can to make sure it does so yeah it's a fantasy but it's one of one that i

1233
01:28:27,172 --> 01:28:34,232
think we have a shot at yeah this wallet and this is this this will sound like an advertisement for

1234
01:28:34,232 --> 01:28:40,492
the other but i i love the product i was there at the meeting when you introduced it um at the

1235
01:28:40,492 --> 01:28:44,152
KC Bitcoiners meet up about a month or two ago.

1236
01:28:44,432 --> 01:28:48,392
And in your talk, you said, oh, it takes two minutes to set out.

1237
01:28:48,592 --> 01:28:50,432
I, it took me about 30 seconds.

1238
01:28:50,872 --> 01:28:55,132
Like it did not take a full minute for me to get a Bitcoin wallet.

1239
01:28:55,812 --> 01:28:58,152
There's no phone number.

1240
01:28:58,392 --> 01:29:00,712
There's no email address.

1241
01:29:00,852 --> 01:29:02,112
I didn't have to give my name.

1242
01:29:02,112 --> 01:29:21,012
I don't have to do anything in order to download it and create a wallet and be able to have a point of sale system, be able to have self-custody of my Bitcoin, have encrypted anonymous messaging, a Bitcoin map with.

1243
01:29:21,152 --> 01:29:22,092
I love that map.

1244
01:29:22,332 --> 01:29:22,852
That's really cool.

1245
01:29:22,852 --> 01:29:23,032
I love that map.

1246
01:29:24,492 --> 01:29:25,832
Start out the BTC map.

1247
01:29:25,932 --> 01:29:26,152
Yeah.

1248
01:29:26,232 --> 01:29:26,492
Yeah.

1249
01:29:26,772 --> 01:29:30,312
I think there's a fifth feature on there as well that I'm not saying.

1250
01:29:31,232 --> 01:29:32,812
Well, there are...

1251
01:29:32,812 --> 01:29:34,172
I mean, let me see.

1252
01:29:35,792 --> 01:29:36,472
As far as features...

1253
01:29:36,472 --> 01:29:39,332
I thought there was five big things, but maybe I'm missing it.

1254
01:29:39,332 --> 01:29:40,972
I think you hit all the decked ones.

1255
01:29:41,732 --> 01:29:44,552
There are obviously lots of really small

1256
01:29:44,552 --> 01:29:48,192
quality of life things in mana,

1257
01:29:48,512 --> 01:29:51,012
like being able to receive two of a lightning address,

1258
01:29:51,372 --> 01:29:54,932
which is fairly rare with self-custody solutions

1259
01:29:54,932 --> 01:29:56,132
because it's difficult.

1260
01:29:56,972 --> 01:30:00,232
Breeze actually did a lot of the pathfinding in this.

1261
01:30:00,312 --> 01:30:05,812
area so shout out to them um you were talking about breeze earlier i was actually in vegas on

1262
01:30:05,812 --> 01:30:11,872
the panel with uh mr scheinfeld and i'm for the breeze uh so we were actually talking our topic

1263
01:30:11,872 --> 01:30:18,332
was from capital to currency that was the name of the cool that's cool but anyway um so yeah i'm

1264
01:30:18,332 --> 01:30:23,012
very familiar with the team over there they do a really good job and they're probably one of the

1265
01:30:23,012 --> 01:30:27,172
one of the groups of people that i'd say we wouldn't have been able to do what we did without

1266
01:30:27,172 --> 01:30:31,152
them. We both were building kind of

1267
01:30:31,152 --> 01:30:34,952
a very similar solution at the same time. They may have been a little bit

1268
01:30:34,952 --> 01:30:39,072
earlier than we were, but we kind of both came to the same conclusion at a very

1269
01:30:39,072 --> 01:30:42,832
similar time. They released, or they had this development

1270
01:30:42,832 --> 01:30:46,992
hit, Nodeless is what they call it, and it's great.

1271
01:30:48,572 --> 01:30:51,072
We had already kind of built all of our stack

1272
01:30:51,072 --> 01:30:54,952
out by the time they were perfecting that. And so we didn't build on

1273
01:30:54,952 --> 01:30:56,092
on the Nullis SDK.

1274
01:30:56,772 --> 01:30:57,332
In hindsight,

1275
01:30:57,432 --> 01:30:58,212
it would have been kind of cool

1276
01:30:58,212 --> 01:30:58,932
if we did.

1277
01:30:58,992 --> 01:30:59,492
And we may,

1278
01:30:59,572 --> 01:30:59,852
you know,

1279
01:30:59,872 --> 01:31:01,252
be able to use some of that

1280
01:31:01,252 --> 01:31:02,512
open SDK at some point

1281
01:31:02,512 --> 01:31:03,232
in the future too,

1282
01:31:03,412 --> 01:31:04,092
which would be nice.

1283
01:31:05,092 --> 01:31:05,872
But yeah,

1284
01:31:05,952 --> 01:31:06,112
it's,

1285
01:31:06,112 --> 01:31:06,332
it's,

1286
01:31:06,512 --> 01:31:06,732
again,

1287
01:31:07,092 --> 01:31:07,292
we,

1288
01:31:07,292 --> 01:31:08,672
we came to a lot of the same conclusions,

1289
01:31:08,672 --> 01:31:10,152
which was really cool to see,

1290
01:31:10,532 --> 01:31:12,492
especially as it pertains to like

1291
01:31:12,492 --> 01:31:14,892
interacting with people,

1292
01:31:14,892 --> 01:31:16,192
like sending and receiving payments

1293
01:31:16,192 --> 01:31:18,452
because up to that point,

1294
01:31:18,632 --> 01:31:18,912
you know,

1295
01:31:18,952 --> 01:31:19,472
obviously,

1296
01:31:19,632 --> 01:31:19,872
you know,

1297
01:31:19,872 --> 01:31:21,092
started to get really popular

1298
01:31:21,092 --> 01:31:22,032
with all of Satoshi

1299
01:31:22,032 --> 01:31:23,832
and some of these other

1300
01:31:23,832 --> 01:31:30,312
tools out there where you can push a payment to somebody's lightning address so you had like

1301
01:31:30,312 --> 01:31:34,612
nostr and stuff um that were getting really popular around the time and you could just

1302
01:31:34,612 --> 01:31:41,012
zap evil sats right so but before that especially as it pertains to self-custody wallets it was

1303
01:31:41,012 --> 01:31:47,472
very difficult to say the least to do it in like a kind of plug and play type of a solution

1304
01:31:47,472 --> 01:31:53,592
you know so there's a lot of lightning wallets out there that don't have this ability and it's

1305
01:31:53,592 --> 01:31:55,192
it is just simply because it's pretty difficult.

1306
01:31:55,952 --> 01:31:58,712
And there's a lot of complexity that goes on,

1307
01:31:58,712 --> 01:31:59,512
on a,

1308
01:31:59,512 --> 01:32:05,552
like a infrastructure and development and software side that,

1309
01:32:05,552 --> 01:32:07,952
that needs to happen in order to make this take place.

1310
01:32:08,652 --> 01:32:09,332
And again,

1311
01:32:09,452 --> 01:32:14,172
I just want to point that point out to the fact that breeze probably was more

1312
01:32:14,172 --> 01:32:14,972
crucial,

1313
01:32:15,132 --> 01:32:16,972
pivotal to figuring that out than anybody.

1314
01:32:17,232 --> 01:32:18,792
So they have a great product.

1315
01:32:18,852 --> 01:32:19,212
And I just,

1316
01:32:19,452 --> 01:32:21,872
I would be your best if I didn't,

1317
01:32:21,872 --> 01:32:22,132
you know,

1318
01:32:22,132 --> 01:32:27,352
mention how much work they've done on that so if there anything like i we we we came to know ivan

1319
01:32:27,352 --> 01:32:33,632
because the first five episodes we did were on jason lowry's software thesis and ivan reached out

1320
01:32:33,632 --> 01:32:40,412
to us he wanted to talk about it and the man is a literal force of nature with bitcoin i think he

1321
01:32:40,412 --> 01:32:47,432
has single-handedly uh made bulgaria a hotspot around the world uh for bitcoin and there's a

1322
01:32:47,432 --> 01:32:54,392
movie that's uh being made um where he plays a huge role um that kind of explaining how he has

1323
01:32:54,392 --> 01:32:58,812
been really boots on the ground like i heard that movie has some good music in it too i am doing a

1324
01:32:58,812 --> 01:33:03,892
theme song movie i kind of talked about that yeah that's awesome it's it's really it's really

1325
01:33:03,892 --> 01:33:11,452
fantastic um but uh it just i i think one of the things that i want to point out is that you're

1326
01:33:11,452 --> 01:33:17,912
talking about a competitor in a very kind way. And that's one of the, that's the thing that

1327
01:33:17,912 --> 01:33:22,232
brought me, that was my like lightning spark moment about Bitcoin was that it makes things

1328
01:33:22,232 --> 01:33:28,492
collaborative, was that I can put out a song and you can take that song and you could add rap lyrics

1329
01:33:28,492 --> 01:33:32,852
to it. And then you can get the split payments on it. We could both grow and we can both benefit

1330
01:33:32,852 --> 01:33:38,872
from that. There's nobody in between it. I want to go back more to a, I don't want to say

1331
01:33:38,872 --> 01:33:43,652
conspiratorial because I know where the term conspiracy comes from, thanks to Bitcoin and

1332
01:33:43,652 --> 01:33:52,792
all those rabbit holes. But stable coins are merely a bait and switch in order to hook the world on

1333
01:33:52,792 --> 01:34:01,072
surveyable and confiscatable and controllable central bank digital currencies. That is something

1334
01:34:01,072 --> 01:34:07,972
that I have had something itching at me a little bit that just didn't seem quite right.

1335
01:34:08,872 --> 01:34:18,072
And I just watched a presentation that Michael Saylor gave at the Middle Eastern Bitcoin conference.

1336
01:34:19,072 --> 01:34:24,812
And he's laying out the plan that strategy holds the Bitcoin, they hold the capital.

1337
01:34:25,492 --> 01:34:36,252
And if you're a giant bank, maybe a central bank, and you buy the stretch and you put it in there and you put your currency with it.

1338
01:34:36,252 --> 01:34:41,792
And then you put a buffer on top of that in order to keep it at par so that then you can create your currency.

1339
01:34:41,792 --> 01:34:44,112
This is taking the capital to currency.

1340
01:34:44,432 --> 01:34:47,592
You were on a panel called capital to currency.

1341
01:34:48,372 --> 01:34:49,892
So there's that.

1342
01:34:50,012 --> 01:34:56,152
And then there's also the aspect of 21, which just debuted on the NASDAQ, Dow Jones.

1343
01:34:57,752 --> 01:35:01,252
You know, it's backed by Cantor Fitzgerald.

1344
01:35:01,352 --> 01:35:05,312
It has all kinds of ties to the government with Bo Hines being part of Tether.

1345
01:35:06,252 --> 01:35:20,632
And the current administration seems to have a bit of a hankering for nationalizing companies by giving them opportunity to participate with the government.

1346
01:35:22,312 --> 01:35:24,452
Do you think it's that obvious?

1347
01:35:25,112 --> 01:35:35,532
You know, I think in retrospect, we look at some of these things that are psychological operations and we look in the rear view and we're like, man, they were telling us what they were doing.

1348
01:35:36,252 --> 01:35:42,172
the whole time, and they were blatant about it, and we just didn't see it, and we weren't paying

1349
01:35:42,172 --> 01:35:48,932
attention. But do you think it's that obvious? Is it going to be that 21 is the vehicle through which

1350
01:35:48,932 --> 01:35:55,332
the United States government offloads their debt into the cloud through Tether,

1351
01:35:56,512 --> 01:36:02,692
globalizes it, and pushes it out of the world, and then rolls it back into a CBDC? Is this

1352
01:36:02,692 --> 01:36:08,572
kind of where you're going is this kind of what you're is this what you're building against and do

1353
01:36:08,572 --> 01:36:16,212
you see instead of instead of instead of knowing that the monster is somewhere behind the fog are

1354
01:36:16,212 --> 01:36:23,092
you now starting to see that monster up close is this what it is do you think yes i think that's

1355
01:36:23,092 --> 01:36:30,652
actually a good way to put it because i think i for me it's easy for me to say you know people

1356
01:36:30,652 --> 01:36:36,832
just need to open their eyes. It's, you know, it is obvious to me. It may not be obvious to everybody.

1357
01:36:37,212 --> 01:36:42,492
I think that, you know, at times I'm insensitive and think people should be able to see these

1358
01:36:42,492 --> 01:36:49,532
things. I've been personally talking about this for many years, but as far as it being closer

1359
01:36:49,532 --> 01:36:54,992
right up in front of our faces, that's kind of part of what motivated me to actually get into

1360
01:36:54,992 --> 01:37:02,632
action with with building what i have also sometimes referred to as an anti-cbdc so mana

1361
01:37:02,632 --> 01:37:12,132
is an anti-cbdc that's that is what it is that is essentially the um the underlying principle

1362
01:37:12,132 --> 01:37:19,112
of what is guiding how we are building and developing at mana right we are giving somebody

1363
01:37:19,112 --> 01:37:25,992
an alternative to the system that we know is coming it may be a while before it comes to the

1364
01:37:25,992 --> 01:37:32,372
u.s i hope it's a very long while um i have no idea how long it's going to take for it to be on

1365
01:37:32,372 --> 01:37:39,372
our doorstep what i do feel confident in saying is that it's going to spread you know on planet

1366
01:37:39,372 --> 01:37:44,132
earth from this point forward it's going to there's going to be more cbdcs on earth in 10 years

1367
01:37:44,132 --> 01:37:50,452
in 10 years from then there's going to be more and i think that eventually it does come to the u.s

1368
01:37:50,452 --> 01:37:59,172
whether that's relatively soon or not i don't know um i uh you know just because like i i think that

1369
01:37:59,172 --> 01:38:04,812
i saw these things maybe it's maybe it's because some people might refer to me as you know

1370
01:38:04,812 --> 01:38:12,112
neurodivergent other people might call me a tylenol american high functioning autism

1371
01:38:12,112 --> 01:38:21,052
whatever you want to whatever label you want to put on me um i just like i i i see i see through

1372
01:38:21,052 --> 01:38:27,292
a lot of the facade pretty easily um or at least i convince myself i do to make me feel better about

1373
01:38:27,292 --> 01:38:32,752
myself sometimes um but i've been pointing out things specifically about tether for a while and

1374
01:38:32,752 --> 01:38:41,672
i don't want to spend too much time on this because uh i will say i i do at my core

1375
01:38:41,672 --> 01:38:51,212
at this point believe that the team behind tether has good intentions that's what i currently believe

1376
01:38:51,212 --> 01:38:57,112
i i thought other things in the past but i've come to the conclusion based off of my observation of

1377
01:38:57,112 --> 01:39:02,172
how they've conducted themselves and everything i think they are just driven and i think they

1378
01:39:02,172 --> 01:39:09,492
actually believe that it is a core component of ushering in uh hyper bitcoinization okay

1379
01:39:09,492 --> 01:39:15,872
um however i just obviously i have a different conclusion than they do i i think that every step

1380
01:39:15,872 --> 01:39:25,912
every dollar every investment into stable coins which obviously tether is the 900 pound gorilla

1381
01:39:25,912 --> 01:39:35,752
so we can almost you know consider them you know synonymous yeah yeah um every every step

1382
01:39:35,752 --> 01:39:39,792
into Tether is not a step toward Bitcoin, in my opinion.

1383
01:39:40,532 --> 01:39:41,992
Now, obviously, there's arguments to this.

1384
01:39:42,112 --> 01:39:45,132
Alan Frankton has a piece where he makes a case for this.

1385
01:39:45,852 --> 01:39:48,232
I don't think that it's case closed.

1386
01:39:48,792 --> 01:39:49,932
Are you guys familiar with Alan?

1387
01:39:50,372 --> 01:39:52,752
Familiar with Bitcoin is Venus.

1388
01:39:53,092 --> 01:39:55,252
It's his book, but we haven't looked at that one yet.

1389
01:39:55,292 --> 01:39:55,972
I got it on my bookshelf.

1390
01:39:56,092 --> 01:39:56,712
We haven't read it yet.

1391
01:39:57,392 --> 01:40:01,032
It's been a while since I've read it,

1392
01:40:01,412 --> 01:40:03,332
but I think he has a disclaimer at some point

1393
01:40:03,332 --> 01:40:09,172
where he's like this is not a real article this is just like some bots on paper kind of thing but

1394
01:40:09,172 --> 01:40:14,672
it is it's it's still i mean he's a genius it's very well done pretty much so um so i would if

1395
01:40:14,672 --> 01:40:20,392
you're interested in stable coin a topic it's definitely worth reading um maybe i'll send it

1396
01:40:20,392 --> 01:40:26,032
to you guys and yeah if anyone else wants to yeah maybe you could share a link but uh very good uh

1397
01:40:26,032 --> 01:40:33,232
guy swan also did a piece on it too so he read it um it's easily digestible if you're a listener

1398
01:40:33,232 --> 01:40:35,652
so where am I going with all this

1399
01:40:35,652 --> 01:40:37,552
I think that

1400
01:40:37,552 --> 01:40:40,032
stable coins are a detractor

1401
01:40:40,032 --> 01:40:42,012
from the future

1402
01:40:42,012 --> 01:40:43,232
that I want to try to build

1403
01:40:43,232 --> 01:40:45,512
and so I have just

1404
01:40:45,512 --> 01:40:47,652
personally I mean if anybody's

1405
01:40:47,652 --> 01:40:49,952
followed me on X for any lengthy period of time

1406
01:40:49,952 --> 01:40:52,312
I probably don't go more than a month

1407
01:40:52,312 --> 01:40:55,832
I don't know if that's accurate

1408
01:40:55,832 --> 01:40:57,892
but I would say on average I probably

1409
01:40:57,892 --> 01:40:59,832
would post something negative about stable coins

1410
01:40:59,832 --> 01:41:01,712
at least once a month in fact

1411
01:41:01,712 --> 01:41:07,032
I very regularly tweet a very specific set of characters that doesn't deviate.

1412
01:41:07,212 --> 01:41:09,552
And it just says, Tether is a scam.

1413
01:41:12,152 --> 01:41:13,012
Fairly straightforward.

1414
01:41:13,552 --> 01:41:15,972
On this podcast, Jeff Booth called.

1415
01:41:16,192 --> 01:41:21,092
He said, we need to call things by what they are instead of by what people want us to call them.

1416
01:41:21,792 --> 01:41:23,792
Stable coins are guaranteed lost coins.

1417
01:41:23,952 --> 01:41:25,672
They do not keep stable values.

1418
01:41:25,812 --> 01:41:27,172
They guarantee that you lose value.

1419
01:41:27,852 --> 01:41:30,812
I don't disagree with you.

1420
01:41:30,812 --> 01:41:35,652
I don't disagree. And the problem is it's very tasty. It's very easy, easily consumed.

1421
01:41:35,932 --> 01:41:36,212
Yeah.

1422
01:41:36,352 --> 01:41:39,992
Because people can just go, oh, well, here's my dollars. Here's my dollars in stable coins.

1423
01:41:40,152 --> 01:41:40,332
Yeah.

1424
01:41:40,332 --> 01:41:52,532
I mean, the argument for them is like they serve a purpose perhaps as a historical bridge or as a necessary stopping point onto a better currency in places like Argentina and Africa.

1425
01:41:52,532 --> 01:41:54,812
that, I mean, Gladstein in his piece

1426
01:41:54,812 --> 01:41:57,012
in the Journal of Democracy,

1427
01:41:57,412 --> 01:41:59,432
I mean, he notes the stablecoin usage

1428
01:41:59,432 --> 01:42:00,992
is very big amongst the dissidents

1429
01:42:00,992 --> 01:42:02,152
and people that-

1430
01:42:02,152 --> 01:42:03,212
For cross-border remittances.

1431
01:42:03,292 --> 01:42:04,252
Yeah, and stuff like that.

1432
01:42:04,372 --> 01:42:07,492
So it has a use case that it's currently serving.

1433
01:42:07,712 --> 01:42:09,172
But as far as your point, though,

1434
01:42:09,292 --> 01:42:12,452
I mean, it's not historically where we want to go.

1435
01:42:12,572 --> 01:42:13,752
It's not the term we want to see.

1436
01:42:13,852 --> 01:42:15,512
I think what it ultimately does

1437
01:42:15,512 --> 01:42:17,992
is it prolongs the-

1438
01:42:17,992 --> 01:42:18,632
Inevitable.

1439
01:42:19,632 --> 01:42:20,712
Yeah, it prolongs the inevitable,

1440
01:42:20,712 --> 01:42:31,712
What I have a problem with mostly is that it prolongs the fiat central bank fractional reserve regime.

1441
01:42:33,272 --> 01:42:33,932
For sure it does.

1442
01:42:34,292 --> 01:42:37,452
It keeps central banking alive.

1443
01:42:38,412 --> 01:42:42,812
It does this through its purchase of government debt.

1444
01:42:43,672 --> 01:42:49,412
And it's just another form of the same drug that we're all addicted to.

1445
01:42:49,412 --> 01:42:56,412
And one of the points that I made at the summit that you were at is that stablecoins...

1446
01:42:58,192 --> 01:43:01,292
What's the call of this?

1447
01:43:02,432 --> 01:43:03,472
We're at the summit.

1448
01:43:03,773 --> 01:43:04,912
You're speaking on stage.

1449
01:43:05,032 --> 01:43:15,038
You making a point about stablecoins Stablecoins are just a hyperized version Instead of snort cocaine you in your veins now If you ever need a colorful analogy It fine

1450
01:43:17,718 --> 01:43:18,218
All right.

1451
01:43:18,278 --> 01:43:19,338
Well, we might need to come back.

1452
01:43:19,838 --> 01:43:20,578
And please do.

1453
01:43:21,058 --> 01:43:22,218
Please do come back to that.

1454
01:43:22,798 --> 01:43:24,538
I had a, yeah, because.

1455
01:43:25,458 --> 01:43:26,258
It's so much fun.

1456
01:43:26,398 --> 01:43:26,618
Yeah.

1457
01:43:26,698 --> 01:43:27,418
We've got to do more.

1458
01:43:27,518 --> 01:43:29,538
I just want to know who Adam is.

1459
01:43:29,618 --> 01:43:34,318
I'm trying to piece together your biography because I'm kind of left in the military and then I got into COVID.

1460
01:43:34,318 --> 01:43:41,278
and then now you have the manna wallet and from my perspective of just always having a dirty fiat

1461
01:43:41,278 --> 01:43:46,678
job never doing anything entrepreneurial to someone to do something like that just seems like

1462
01:43:46,678 --> 01:43:50,738
what are you just are you just a renaissance man like where'd you come up where did the technical

1463
01:43:50,738 --> 01:43:55,938
capacity to do this come from where did the internal reserves like how did you do this

1464
01:43:55,938 --> 01:44:01,178
well first of all i want to address something i think is really important and that people don't

1465
01:44:01,178 --> 01:44:07,198
here enough and that is you know these fiat jobs like working in the fiat minds people always tend

1466
01:44:07,198 --> 01:44:14,118
to have this mindset of like i need to get into working in bitcoin and i i push back on that like

1467
01:44:14,118 --> 01:44:21,838
hardcore i think that the best thing you can do is provide a service or a product like provide

1468
01:44:21,838 --> 01:44:28,638
your human capital to the world in the best way you can and save in bitcoin if you can

1469
01:44:28,638 --> 01:44:31,878
accept the payment in Bitcoin directly.

1470
01:44:32,178 --> 01:44:33,218
It's not possible for everybody,

1471
01:44:33,318 --> 01:44:35,958
but at a minimum, just go buy Bitcoin, right?

1472
01:44:36,038 --> 01:44:40,718
That is the most efficient use of your human capital

1473
01:44:40,718 --> 01:44:43,438
in terms of moving us toward, you know,

1474
01:44:43,478 --> 01:44:45,518
Bitcoin standard, if you want to call it that.

1475
01:44:45,518 --> 01:44:48,878
I think that is the most efficient use of your energy

1476
01:44:48,878 --> 01:44:50,358
is to do what you're good at.

1477
01:44:51,438 --> 01:44:54,458
Use the systems that are in place already.

1478
01:44:55,018 --> 01:44:56,838
Like you don't have to recreate the wheel.

1479
01:44:56,838 --> 01:45:07,058
Like almost literally speaking, you know, going and leaving something that you already have that's established and trying to do something in Bitcoin because you think you're going to push the needle faster.

1480
01:45:07,258 --> 01:45:07,938
You're not.

1481
01:45:08,138 --> 01:45:13,398
What's really going to push the needle is you doing something in the real world that is making you a lot of money.

1482
01:45:13,618 --> 01:45:19,658
And you're literally just a siphon, a massive siphon from, you know, fiat into Bitcoin.

1483
01:45:19,658 --> 01:45:28,978
That is going to be much more effective than, you know, trying to go get hired at some Bitcoin company where they're just you're a problem looking for a solution.

1484
01:45:29,618 --> 01:45:32,178
But that being said, though, you did make the man a wallet.

1485
01:45:32,698 --> 01:45:39,978
So having put that asterisk there, like, I mean, it seems like such a I guess I don't know where your education was.

1486
01:45:40,038 --> 01:45:40,878
You were a business major.

1487
01:45:41,438 --> 01:45:42,658
It seems like a technical enterprise.

1488
01:45:43,958 --> 01:45:48,738
Say someone is a foolhardy person and they do want to do something similar to what you did.

1489
01:45:48,738 --> 01:45:50,138
Did you just acquire talents?

1490
01:45:50,698 --> 01:45:54,778
You just learn by yourself on your own what you need to do to get this going?

1491
01:45:54,898 --> 01:45:55,558
Or how did this happen?

1492
01:45:55,698 --> 01:46:00,838
Yeah, let me go kind of chronologically because this might help build into what became mana.

1493
01:46:01,238 --> 01:46:06,818
So in 2017, I told you about this period where I'm reading this article.

1494
01:46:06,978 --> 01:46:09,618
I had this epiphany, proof of work.

1495
01:46:09,798 --> 01:46:15,358
It was literally in that same moment that I realized the next thing I wanted to do.

1496
01:46:15,358 --> 01:46:26,338
And that was I wanted to build a computer that people could put in their house and they just plug it in and turn it on and it starts mining for them.

1497
01:46:26,818 --> 01:46:26,838
Beautiful.

1498
01:46:27,878 --> 01:46:34,278
In this exact moment, of course, it was Ethereum, which I'm glad, you know, changed direction at some point.

1499
01:46:34,998 --> 01:46:40,598
So while I was on my deployment, I started building my plans for a business that I built called Hands Free Bitcoin.

1500
01:46:41,178 --> 01:46:42,598
And that's literally what it was.

1501
01:46:42,598 --> 01:46:44,098
We built miners.

1502
01:46:44,098 --> 01:46:47,338
We built the hardware, so we put all the hardware together.

1503
01:46:47,778 --> 01:46:49,878
We had custom power supplies.

1504
01:46:50,038 --> 01:46:51,918
We did some custom circuitry.

1505
01:46:52,358 --> 01:46:55,838
We had our own custom case and some of our own custom components

1506
01:46:55,838 --> 01:47:00,538
so that all you had to do was pull it out of the box and flip the switch,

1507
01:47:00,658 --> 01:47:01,998
and it starts mining Bitcoin for you.

1508
01:47:02,818 --> 01:47:06,718
We also did the software, of course, and then custom tuning firmware

1509
01:47:06,718 --> 01:47:10,698
to make it like a palatable, consumer-grade product.

1510
01:47:10,698 --> 01:47:13,978
You buy this product, you run it in your home, and it just works.

1511
01:47:14,098 --> 01:47:17,498
And it doesn't annoy the heck out of your wife, right?

1512
01:47:17,618 --> 01:47:19,058
It's girlfriend friendly.

1513
01:47:19,838 --> 01:47:22,458
I think I was on a podcast or somebody said that.

1514
01:47:23,378 --> 01:47:24,838
So this started in 2017.

1515
01:47:25,578 --> 01:47:27,578
The business is still going today.

1516
01:47:27,738 --> 01:47:32,998
We're not selling any new product, but we're servicing existing customers still to this day.

1517
01:47:33,638 --> 01:47:37,978
But ultimately, economy scale and difficulty adjustment got the best of us.

1518
01:47:38,098 --> 01:47:40,178
And so we're kind of sunsetting that business.

1519
01:47:40,378 --> 01:47:42,918
But it was a really cool journey for me.

1520
01:47:42,918 --> 01:47:49,938
um one it was you know profitable so it allowed me to financially position myself to do what i'm

1521
01:47:49,938 --> 01:47:55,278
doing now with mana so that's how i'm funding that's i'm no i don't have to go to a vc and

1522
01:47:55,278 --> 01:48:02,098
you know give them my risk to chain up and you know to tow me around and tell me what to do and

1523
01:48:02,098 --> 01:48:08,998
you know conform to their wishes um which i have also talked a lot about because i see a lot of

1524
01:48:08,998 --> 01:48:11,518
in the space, especially in Bitcoin.

1525
01:48:12,818 --> 01:48:14,458
And without naming any names,

1526
01:48:14,558 --> 01:48:15,378
I will just say, you know,

1527
01:48:15,398 --> 01:48:17,898
there are only a very small handful

1528
01:48:17,898 --> 01:48:19,758
of people in the Bitcoin space

1529
01:48:19,758 --> 01:48:20,898
where everybody knows

1530
01:48:20,898 --> 01:48:22,178
when you run out of funding,

1531
01:48:22,298 --> 01:48:23,178
this is who you go to.

1532
01:48:23,898 --> 01:48:26,658
And again, I think it's a dangerous path.

1533
01:48:26,798 --> 01:48:29,758
And so at this point, in this moment,

1534
01:48:29,898 --> 01:48:31,198
you know, Man has never taken

1535
01:48:31,198 --> 01:48:32,578
any venture capital investment.

1536
01:48:32,818 --> 01:48:34,138
We've taken no donations.

1537
01:48:34,898 --> 01:48:37,698
It's literally been just a labor of love

1538
01:48:37,698 --> 01:48:41,078
than something that I've invested myself into.

1539
01:48:41,258 --> 01:48:44,298
So if you agree with me,

1540
01:48:44,358 --> 01:48:46,318
if you like the way that I think,

1541
01:48:46,638 --> 01:48:47,778
then maybe mana is cool

1542
01:48:47,778 --> 01:48:49,598
from an idealistic perspective for you.

1543
01:48:49,798 --> 01:48:51,158
If you don't like the way I think,

1544
01:48:51,318 --> 01:48:52,598
then mana might not be for you

1545
01:48:52,598 --> 01:48:54,398
because I think mana is very closely aligned

1546
01:48:54,398 --> 01:48:55,498
with the way that I believe.

1547
01:48:57,158 --> 01:49:00,978
And so this is kind of building into this.

1548
01:49:01,198 --> 01:49:02,078
The hands-free Bitcoin

1549
01:49:02,078 --> 01:49:03,898
is where I got a lot of the skills

1550
01:49:03,898 --> 01:49:06,238
to do what I've done with mana.

1551
01:49:06,458 --> 01:49:07,398
And you got those, again,

1552
01:49:07,398 --> 01:49:11,938
just on your own researching, talking to people, I suppose, and putting it all together in your

1553
01:49:11,938 --> 01:49:18,898
mind. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And finding the right people. So, you know, I, I, I found it. I don't

1554
01:49:18,898 --> 01:49:24,078
know how deep you want to go into this, but I found a developer to help me with the coding for

1555
01:49:24,078 --> 01:49:31,538
hands-free Bitcoin. So there was a lot of actually it was a handful of people over the period of a

1556
01:49:31,538 --> 01:49:37,598
few years but um i figured out how to find people to help me do what i need to do and so that

1557
01:49:37,598 --> 01:49:44,138
networking led to you know being able to find the people that now i need to work with to help with

1558
01:49:44,138 --> 01:49:49,658
manna so i'm not the only one working on manna um you know i have a very good uh software engineer

1559
01:49:49,658 --> 01:49:56,338
that has done most of the code um he's he's great so pretty much everything on the back end is him

1560
01:49:56,338 --> 01:50:03,898
And we also have another, he's a product, lead product manager, platforms manager.

1561
01:50:04,398 --> 01:50:07,398
And he helps with kind of basically, I mean, there's three of us.

1562
01:50:07,538 --> 01:50:09,738
So we all do everything right now.

1563
01:50:09,838 --> 01:50:11,038
So it's a really small team.

1564
01:50:12,318 --> 01:50:18,378
And it's really exciting because, you know, we get to do exactly what we want to do and nobody can tell us not to.

1565
01:50:18,378 --> 01:50:18,758
Yeah.

1566
01:50:18,918 --> 01:50:26,138
So I don't know how close, if you follow Mana on X or not, but we put out like some stuff that most people probably wouldn't say or do.

1567
01:50:26,338 --> 01:50:29,338
You know, we're, you know, we're religious.

1568
01:50:29,678 --> 01:50:32,638
You know, we say we say things from a religious perspective.

1569
01:50:32,638 --> 01:50:33,218
It's called manna.

1570
01:50:33,498 --> 01:50:34,238
It's called manna.

1571
01:50:34,358 --> 01:50:36,578
I mean, we don't all have the same faith either.

1572
01:50:36,578 --> 01:50:36,778
Yeah.

1573
01:50:36,858 --> 01:50:37,098
Right.

1574
01:50:37,158 --> 01:50:39,998
So it's just it's part of our brand.

1575
01:50:39,998 --> 01:50:47,618
It's part of what I think, you know, I want to glorify God because I believe that he's gotten us to this point.

1576
01:50:47,738 --> 01:50:53,638
And it's kind of my way to incorporate, you know, that message into what I do.

1577
01:50:53,638 --> 01:51:00,018
So I can tell people about Bitcoin and the saving powers of Bitcoin, but it also gives me an opportunity to tell people about Christ.

1578
01:51:00,538 --> 01:51:01,658
The saving power of Christ.

1579
01:51:01,798 --> 01:51:01,898
Yeah.

1580
01:51:02,038 --> 01:51:02,598
There you go.

1581
01:51:02,858 --> 01:51:02,998
Yeah.

1582
01:51:03,298 --> 01:51:03,738
Wow.

1583
01:51:04,298 --> 01:51:04,838
I like it.

1584
01:51:04,838 --> 01:51:05,058
Yeah.

1585
01:51:05,138 --> 01:51:08,438
And I get to do that because nobody can tell me not to.

1586
01:51:08,758 --> 01:51:15,758
And if I had, you know, I'm not saying that other people don't have that ability to speak their own mind.

1587
01:51:15,758 --> 01:51:23,238
But going back to like the story of me almost losing my job, it's because of Bitcoin that I'm able to do that.

1588
01:51:23,238 --> 01:51:25,098
is because I have my own self-sovereign.

1589
01:51:25,198 --> 01:51:26,938
I have my own agency, right?

1590
01:51:26,978 --> 01:51:27,938
Without my own agency,

1591
01:51:27,938 --> 01:51:29,938
I can't do or say whatever I want to say.

1592
01:51:30,418 --> 01:51:32,478
And so I'm very outspoken on X.

1593
01:51:32,898 --> 01:51:36,258
And I have a lot of people that point that out to me.

1594
01:51:36,338 --> 01:51:37,398
And I'm like, man, I wish I could say

1595
01:51:37,398 --> 01:51:38,818
half the things that you say to people.

1596
01:51:39,558 --> 01:51:40,618
And I'm like, well, why don't you?

1597
01:51:40,758 --> 01:51:42,298
I lose my job, man.

1598
01:51:42,738 --> 01:51:45,878
I'm like, well, you know, Bitcoin is F you money, right?

1599
01:51:46,118 --> 01:51:47,858
Like, whatever.

1600
01:51:48,118 --> 01:51:50,438
I'll just, you can't freeze my bank account.

1601
01:51:50,698 --> 01:51:51,498
You want to fire me?

1602
01:51:51,998 --> 01:51:52,358
See ya.

1603
01:51:52,358 --> 01:51:58,378
yeah you know so um that's kind of that's kind of where i am uh you know from an ideological

1604
01:51:58,378 --> 01:52:04,478
perspective and how i built into mana from from where where i learned what i learned with my

1605
01:52:04,478 --> 01:52:10,958
others yeah business is there future projects that you got kind of machinating in the back or is it

1606
01:52:10,958 --> 01:52:17,738
i do yeah just talking to my wife um i mean i have everything from like you know i think this

1607
01:52:17,738 --> 01:52:24,198
is a cool idea to like i have ideas that i'm not going to talk right guys about today that would

1608
01:52:24,198 --> 01:52:30,018
absolutely change the world fundamentally as we know it but you know i don't i'm they're very lofty

1609
01:52:30,018 --> 01:52:35,838
goals and i it would take a lot but i think that you know i said you know if i ever get really

1610
01:52:35,838 --> 01:52:43,058
really really stupid rich i'm gonna do this okay yeah you're not afraid to go into jail the samurai

1611
01:52:43,058 --> 01:52:53,518
all guys um i've seen you on x uh supporting uh supporting uh kianro griegas and uh for the other

1612
01:52:53,518 --> 01:53:05,738
name bill um builders of open source software um is that something that you've had to take into

1613
01:53:05,738 --> 01:53:15,038
account building mana thinking every step i can go to jail yeah um yeah um man there's actually a

1614
01:53:15,038 --> 01:53:24,558
lot that i can unpack here uh when i first started building that up um i'll just be like super open

1615
01:53:24,558 --> 01:53:31,318
and transparent with you guys here uh i had like this desire like i knew like in my heart like this

1616
01:53:31,318 --> 01:53:37,838
is what I wanted to do but I prayed about it and felt like God was telling me it's not time

1617
01:53:37,838 --> 01:53:43,498
and I was kind of frustrated about that I was like okay whatever so I just kind of like let

1618
01:53:43,498 --> 01:53:49,738
it simmer and it kept coming back up I'm like man there's something that I need to build and

1619
01:53:49,738 --> 01:53:56,138
it doesn't exist like I just need to do this and I kept again coming back to the point where I felt

1620
01:53:56,138 --> 01:54:01,238
like i was being led not to at that time like just just wait like god was just telling me just just

1621
01:54:01,238 --> 01:54:10,578
hold on and wait and then um the the it was i don't know why this was the day that things changed

1622
01:54:10,578 --> 01:54:19,618
but i was following um some a bunch of a bunch of my friends uh on x were working for swan and they

1623
01:54:19,618 --> 01:54:26,838
just had a massive layoff i remember that yeah yeah and by the way this kind of goes back to some

1624
01:54:26,838 --> 01:54:32,298
of the tanner stuff that we kind of touched on we don't need to get into that but it is just a little

1625
01:54:32,298 --> 01:54:37,618
bit of irony if you uh want to dive into that lore that's an interesting rabbit hole to go down but

1626
01:54:37,618 --> 01:54:45,978
um uh so i i remember seeing that news and that was i was sitting in a car dealership

1627
01:54:45,978 --> 01:54:54,218
getting my car serviced uh oil change and uh that's where i had this moment where i just felt

1628
01:54:54,218 --> 01:55:00,018
like that that was a switch and i felt like it was just placed on my heart where god was just

1629
01:55:00,018 --> 01:55:06,278
saying go nice now's the time it's time to go and i'm like i'm like freaking out because this is the

1630
01:55:06,278 --> 01:55:12,498
samurai stuff the tornado catch stuff this was all like mainstream news i mean our right yeah

1631
01:55:12,498 --> 01:55:19,298
at this point. Like everybody's talking about it. Um, and things are really kind of scary. Um,

1632
01:55:19,758 --> 01:55:26,598
and choke point to point out was still alive and well. And so we have people facing, you know,

1633
01:55:26,638 --> 01:55:32,498
serious charges. We have people getting, you know, cut off from the financial system. Um,

1634
01:55:32,498 --> 01:55:37,518
and basically turned into criminals. Right. And so I'm thinking about all this. And then

1635
01:55:37,518 --> 01:55:44,838
just over the course of the next few months it was like a very strong shift of events so we had a lot

1636
01:55:44,838 --> 01:55:55,098
of positive messaging coming out of dc and uh you know essentially our bureaucrats telling us that

1637
01:55:55,098 --> 01:56:01,138
they're not going to be you know uh that they're going to be treating these things more fairly you

1638
01:56:01,138 --> 01:56:08,118
know more less severely or like uh i can't forget exactly which uh messages were coming out but there

1639
01:56:08,118 --> 01:56:17,278
were a series of positive things that were coming out regarding uh you know more favorable for

1640
01:56:17,278 --> 01:56:21,378
bitcoin developers anyways just a bunch of a bunch of these different series of events that happened

1641
01:56:21,378 --> 01:56:27,398
and then then the elections were coming up and then trump got elected and like i was like okay

1642
01:56:27,398 --> 01:56:32,178
this is like perfect timing because uh all the other wallets have just got kicked out of the

1643
01:56:32,178 --> 01:56:38,318
country basically they all just left they they ran away and the u.s is in desperate need of something

1644
01:56:38,318 --> 01:56:43,258
to use because we didn't have it like we if even if you wanted to use a wallet of satoshi it was

1645
01:56:43,258 --> 01:56:51,158
ip blocked so uh as well as phoenix right yeah yeah so they were they were not available in the

1646
01:56:51,158 --> 01:56:57,118
u.s and then uh mutiny you guys remember in mutiny um i think matt odell was involved i

1647
01:56:57,118 --> 01:57:03,718
remember i don't know yeah um anyway uh i don't know how involved he was i just the i heard from

1648
01:57:03,718 --> 01:57:10,218
him and mutiny i just announced that they're closing their doors and so there was like during

1649
01:57:10,218 --> 01:57:14,118
this time frame it was like nothing and so i was like okay it's just like firing in all cylinders

1650
01:57:14,118 --> 01:57:21,578
let's just go so i built it um i i went hard and then released it in like eight months or so so

1651
01:57:21,578 --> 01:57:30,878
So from, you know, from concept to on the Apple App Store and Google Play Store in eight months, which is pretty fast for a functional working product.

1652
01:57:30,878 --> 01:57:35,218
Now, it's been an iterative process. It's come a long way since then.

1653
01:57:35,478 --> 01:57:38,718
But, you know, it was pretty quickly.

1654
01:57:39,338 --> 01:57:44,438
We were just moving really fast because, you know, saw things changing and we wanted to take advantage of the opportunity.

1655
01:57:44,438 --> 01:57:46,918
but the question about

1656
01:57:46,918 --> 01:57:48,438
where I stood with

1657
01:57:48,438 --> 01:57:50,718
what I was thinking about this

1658
01:57:50,718 --> 01:57:52,438
whole process is

1659
01:57:52,438 --> 01:57:53,778
I'm still

1660
01:57:53,778 --> 01:57:56,898
very cautious about what I feel

1661
01:57:56,898 --> 01:57:58,818
like I can say. There's so much

1662
01:57:58,818 --> 01:58:00,758
that I want to be able to say about

1663
01:58:00,758 --> 01:58:02,978
mana that I

1664
01:58:02,978 --> 01:58:04,938
have reservations to even talk about

1665
01:58:04,938 --> 01:58:06,638
these things aren't

1666
01:58:06,638 --> 01:58:08,658
illegal to say, these things are

1667
01:58:08,658 --> 01:58:10,198
constitutionally protected

1668
01:58:10,198 --> 01:58:12,918
they're

1669
01:58:12,918 --> 01:58:13,818
ethical

1670
01:58:13,818 --> 01:58:20,218
right i think that they're beneficial for humidity and i just can't talk about them like i want to

1671
01:58:20,218 --> 01:58:26,658
um i i could but there's there's a line you know being a target i risk being a target tall blade

1672
01:58:26,658 --> 01:58:34,498
of i'm not gonna i think i'm gonna learn what i can from the samurai case and uh it's pretty

1673
01:58:34,498 --> 01:58:40,998
incredible like a private what's up message is taken out of context in that case and used to

1674
01:58:40,998 --> 01:58:44,818
build the criminal conspiracy case that he says bitcoin is for money laundering or something like

1675
01:58:44,818 --> 01:58:50,378
that as part of a private exchange he's having with somebody as part of a continuum of the exchange

1676
01:58:50,378 --> 01:58:55,778
like this is a part like one analogy he gives and then it's used to build a criminal conspiracy

1677
01:58:55,778 --> 01:59:00,118
case that's insane and now it's chilling your first amendment right to say what you would

1678
01:59:00,118 --> 01:59:08,418
otherwise say i was actually talking about this on uh bitcoin today space on x um this last week

1679
01:59:08,418 --> 01:59:13,878
and i was just like telling everybody kind of like where my thoughts are as a as a developer

1680
01:59:13,878 --> 01:59:19,998
because now i'm questioning like how much i even want to invest in building this business and this

1681
01:59:19,998 --> 01:59:26,018
technology in the united states right it's technology that you know helps move freedom

1682
01:59:26,018 --> 01:59:33,038
forward it helps you know build bitcoin innovation which supposedly the administration is for

1683
01:59:33,038 --> 01:59:38,178
and now i'm taking these things into question and i'm a lot more cautious about these things

1684
01:59:38,718 --> 01:59:44,098
So I guess the question is, you know, do we really want the Bitcoin development to happen in the U.S.?

1685
01:59:44,098 --> 01:59:53,458
And if that's the case, you know, we should probably consider some of the implications of things like the Samurai case and how it affects how other developers are looking at this.

1686
01:59:53,938 --> 01:59:56,038
So we saw the opposite happen.

1687
01:59:56,038 --> 02:00:06,178
So obviously when the election happened, Trump got elected, he established his cabinet, and they started coming out with all of this, you know, very positive stuff.

1688
02:00:06,178 --> 02:00:09,398
We had Danx come back to the U.S.

1689
02:00:09,438 --> 02:00:11,538
We had Wall of Satoshi come back.

1690
02:00:12,358 --> 02:00:18,858
And so there was a very clear message that, hey, we're not going to criminalize this activity.

1691
02:00:19,978 --> 02:00:23,698
And then the sentencing came through.

1692
02:00:23,818 --> 02:00:25,738
The plea deal, Samurai.

1693
02:00:25,998 --> 02:00:28,398
And then we had the sentencing with Fornado Cash.

1694
02:00:31,498 --> 02:00:35,658
Yeah, so they got obviously charged as well.

1695
02:00:35,658 --> 02:00:50,398
So all that to say, I think, you know, where I stand now is I am cautiously optimistic about the future of mana.

1696
02:00:51,058 --> 02:01:02,858
I am going to keep building it unless, you know, there's some very clear reason or legal reason why I can't.

1697
02:01:02,858 --> 02:01:04,618
You know, I'm never going to break the law.

1698
02:01:05,378 --> 02:01:08,178
I will always build things in accordance to the law.

1699
02:01:08,278 --> 02:01:10,558
Mena is fully self-custodial.

1700
02:01:10,738 --> 02:01:12,358
We don't, we're not a money transmitter.

1701
02:01:12,558 --> 02:01:14,178
We never touch anybody's user funds.

1702
02:01:14,458 --> 02:01:16,818
We never custody anybody's funds.

1703
02:01:17,298 --> 02:01:18,858
You don't store any private data.

1704
02:01:19,078 --> 02:01:19,998
Everything is all local.

1705
02:01:20,758 --> 02:01:24,038
So it's just free software you can put on your phone.

1706
02:01:24,858 --> 02:01:27,278
But again, that's sometimes not enough,

1707
02:01:27,358 --> 02:01:28,658
as we're seeing at the Samurai case.

1708
02:01:28,878 --> 02:01:30,798
You know, it doesn't appear to me

1709
02:01:30,798 --> 02:01:33,398
that they really did anything egregiously wrong.

1710
02:01:34,138 --> 02:01:37,578
Again, messages taken out of context is kind of where they got them,

1711
02:01:38,218 --> 02:01:42,378
which is, I mean, that is a very disgraceful justice system.

1712
02:01:42,698 --> 02:01:42,898
Yeah.

1713
02:01:44,298 --> 02:01:46,578
Have you felt, I mean, you've never,

1714
02:01:46,858 --> 02:01:48,618
it sounds like you've never got a tap on the shoulder

1715
02:01:48,618 --> 02:01:50,718
or you've never felt that you were being monitored

1716
02:01:50,718 --> 02:01:54,098
or that you were being looked at by any regulator or agent

1717
02:01:54,098 --> 02:01:54,898
or anything like that.

1718
02:01:54,958 --> 02:01:56,938
You've never felt that type of presence, though.

1719
02:01:57,098 --> 02:01:58,458
I won't go into details.

1720
02:01:58,638 --> 02:02:00,338
I thought there was at one point.

1721
02:02:00,338 --> 02:02:04,958
I've changed my mind. So at this point, the answer is no. I don't think that there is anybody

1722
02:02:04,958 --> 02:02:10,078
breathing down my neck at this point. I'm doing things completely in the open. I'm hiding nothing.

1723
02:02:11,218 --> 02:02:16,578
Everything like, you know, my name is attached to it. You know, literally, you know, my business

1724
02:02:16,578 --> 02:02:22,938
address, everything is like kosher. Like I have a registered business. Again, open software, like

1725
02:02:22,938 --> 02:02:28,438
we're using open source tools. There's nothing that we're hiding and we're not breaking any laws.

1726
02:02:28,438 --> 02:02:33,698
So the only thing there is like making sure we don't say the wrong thing, which is really kind of sad.

1727
02:02:34,058 --> 02:02:35,718
Yeah, it is very much so.

1728
02:02:36,358 --> 02:02:38,738
I should have the right to say whatever I want to say.

1729
02:02:38,998 --> 02:02:55,158
And this all, in my opinion, as I've said this before, I think this really all comes down to the fact that we have built a series of laws and legislation on top of an unconstitutional piece of legislation called the Bank Secrecy Act of 1970.

1730
02:02:55,158 --> 02:03:10,638
So we established the BSA of 1970, and then we built all of these laws and case law around the BSA. And so we have the KYC and AML laws, which are part of that as well. And that's the fundamental problem.

1731
02:03:10,638 --> 02:03:26,778
In my opinion, that's kind of where this all sees from is because, yeah, they, you know, said things that, let's say the samurai folks, you know, said things that potentially implicated them as conspiracy as an unlicensed money transmitter, right?

1732
02:03:26,878 --> 02:03:28,378
To operate as an unlicensed money transmitter.

1733
02:03:28,458 --> 02:03:31,158
I think that's what the charge they pled guilty to, if I'm not.

1734
02:03:31,258 --> 02:03:32,538
Some sort of conspiracy charge.

1735
02:03:32,658 --> 02:03:34,038
So it wouldn't surprise me if that was that.

1736
02:03:34,038 --> 02:03:40,598
I thought it was related to money transmission was one of the charges brought against him.

1737
02:03:40,638 --> 02:03:42,158
I don't know if that's the one that he's stuck with.

1738
02:03:42,158 --> 02:03:55,518
Anyway, my point still stands that, you know, even if you're not transmitting money, you know, how can you charge somebody for unlicensed money transmission, you know, if they're not actually transmitting any money?

1739
02:03:55,518 --> 02:04:04,898
But it goes back to the fact that this is all built on a series of unconstitutional laws, which are built on an unconstitutional piece of legislation called the VSA.

1740
02:04:05,078 --> 02:04:08,798
So my message is we need to repeal the VSA.

1741
02:04:09,158 --> 02:04:11,578
It does not belong in our country.

1742
02:04:12,238 --> 02:04:18,058
That was Natalie Smolenski's big ask, too, on Twitter when she like one thing the new administration should change.

1743
02:04:18,058 --> 02:04:30,558
And in her introduction to the Satoshi Papers, she writes like the Bank Secrecy Act is her big bait noir that she calls it the banker's revolution when you have all this legislation, the 1970s creeping authoritarianism.

1744
02:04:30,838 --> 02:04:34,198
And yeah, and I think that you're absolutely right.

1745
02:04:34,298 --> 02:04:38,058
That is, I mean, you're just a living example of your speech being chilled.

1746
02:04:38,178 --> 02:04:44,898
It's just it's so just to see that in person, to know that you can't say what you want to say, what you might want to say in this country.

1747
02:04:44,898 --> 02:04:45,638
That's incredible.

1748
02:04:45,638 --> 02:04:52,658
I mean, and it is because of these unconstitutional laws and also just that conspiracy is such a vague criminal.

1749
02:04:54,058 --> 02:04:59,478
You can build a conspiracy case with very little, like not even the act itself, but conspiring to do the act.

1750
02:04:59,658 --> 02:05:05,238
And Keenan said it himself, like, it's the only thing that they could get him on that they didn't have to bring a victim.

1751
02:05:06,498 --> 02:05:07,338
Everything else.

1752
02:05:07,618 --> 02:05:08,758
True victimless crimes.

1753
02:05:09,058 --> 02:05:09,178
Yeah.

1754
02:05:09,818 --> 02:05:11,958
But this is the one charge that did not require a victim.

1755
02:05:12,298 --> 02:05:12,498
Yeah.

1756
02:05:12,498 --> 02:05:17,658
My wife and I, well, my wife was actually asking me about this literally as I was walking out the door to come see you guys.

1757
02:05:17,778 --> 02:05:17,998
Yeah.

1758
02:05:18,118 --> 02:05:19,158
Are you going to go to jail?

1759
02:05:19,418 --> 02:05:26,498
Obviously, I've been watching a lot of the human podcasts and stuff and trying to do my best to spread the message about his case.

1760
02:05:29,018 --> 02:05:35,098
Yeah, there's a petition on like what the petition website is, change.org or something like that to sign.

1761
02:05:35,438 --> 02:05:36,158
Yeah, I've signed it.

1762
02:05:36,398 --> 02:05:37,078
I did too.

1763
02:05:37,138 --> 02:05:40,838
If you guys haven't signed it, I would encourage you to at least consider doing it.

1764
02:05:40,838 --> 02:05:43,118
you do have to dox yourself, I think, to do it.

1765
02:05:43,198 --> 02:05:47,198
But I think in this case, for me, it was worth it.

1766
02:05:47,518 --> 02:05:49,598
So, but my wife was asking me about it.

1767
02:05:49,658 --> 02:05:52,518
She's like, are you going to go to jail?

1768
02:05:52,738 --> 02:05:56,978
Or she said something like, are you going to go to jail like Paul from the Bible?

1769
02:05:57,598 --> 02:05:59,878
And I was like, well, I don't know.

1770
02:06:00,018 --> 02:06:01,778
If they try to do the same thing to me,

1771
02:06:01,838 --> 02:06:03,898
at least a whole lot more people are going to hear about Jesus

1772
02:06:03,898 --> 02:06:05,738
because I'm not going to shut up about it.

1773
02:06:05,838 --> 02:06:07,678
So there's my protection.

1774
02:06:07,898 --> 02:06:09,038
I feel like you wouldn't go to jail.

1775
02:06:09,038 --> 02:06:10,698
I feel like you would be a prisoner of conscience.

1776
02:06:10,838 --> 02:06:11,678
I feel like you would.

1777
02:06:11,878 --> 02:06:14,798
I mean, you went, you looked down the barrel to lose your job and everything.

1778
02:06:14,978 --> 02:06:15,978
I think that, I don't know.

1779
02:06:16,078 --> 02:06:16,318
Yeah.

1780
02:06:16,638 --> 02:06:17,918
I'm not saying you wouldn't go to jail.

1781
02:06:17,918 --> 02:06:21,518
I'm saying that if the situation arose, I don't see you standing back.

1782
02:06:22,118 --> 02:06:23,778
You know, for the sake of my kids, though.

1783
02:06:23,878 --> 02:06:24,058
Yeah.

1784
02:06:24,118 --> 02:06:24,818
I think, I don't know.

1785
02:06:25,138 --> 02:06:26,918
That would be my determining.

1786
02:06:27,198 --> 02:06:27,478
Yeah.

1787
02:06:28,158 --> 02:06:28,558
100%.

1788
02:06:28,558 --> 02:06:30,798
Whatever's in their best interest, I'm going to make sure I do.

1789
02:06:30,898 --> 02:06:31,138
Yeah.

1790
02:06:31,218 --> 02:06:31,778
100%.

1791
02:06:31,778 --> 02:06:32,558
Yeah.

1792
02:06:33,018 --> 02:06:33,958
I got one more.

1793
02:06:33,958 --> 02:06:54,258
So you've got a vision and you've been moving from this inflection point in 2017 towards that vision that seems to have been the motivation in the wellspring for you to first create miners and now create this incredible product.

1794
02:06:54,258 --> 02:06:55,658
That's more than just a wallet.

1795
02:06:55,658 --> 02:06:59,378
It's a communication and it's a more to sales system.

1796
02:06:59,498 --> 02:07:03,538
And it's an accounting of who can you do business with.

1797
02:07:03,958 --> 02:07:08,758
spit out your Bitcoin shibboleth as you walk along the path of life.

1798
02:07:11,178 --> 02:07:18,598
And I think that you have a vision for where we go. And I just kind of wanted to hear it because

1799
02:07:18,598 --> 02:07:24,998
I'm a songwriter. I'm a storyteller. I love to hear the vivid landscapes that people can paint

1800
02:07:24,998 --> 02:07:32,818
with their words and what they see in their mind. Where do you think we go in the next

1801
02:07:32,818 --> 02:07:44,098
10 years like where and it can be with anything it can be geopolitical it can be war it can be

1802
02:07:44,098 --> 02:07:48,698
the authoritarianism issue it can be is there a great man that arises is there

1803
02:07:48,698 --> 02:07:54,558
you know does the fourth turning happen and we all just end up blown to bits what what's the

1804
02:07:54,558 --> 02:08:02,138
future that you see coming i think that that's going to be well there's a lot of different forces

1805
02:08:02,138 --> 02:08:08,818
moving at high velocities in all different directions um so it's really hard for me to like

1806
02:08:08,818 --> 02:08:13,498
guess and it's just like you know if you tried to ask me you know what the price of bitcoin is going

1807
02:08:13,498 --> 02:08:20,998
to be in you know 10 months i'd probably have to be it's just clueless um but also there's there's

1808
02:08:20,998 --> 02:08:28,238
a lot of factors that i think i do see kind of converging toward certain directions and there's

1809
02:08:28,238 --> 02:08:36,298
a lot of different ways people like to um quantify it um one of the one of the philosophies of thought

1810
02:08:36,298 --> 02:08:42,538
is like the turnings right you've got the the fourth turning type of um philosophy and i think

1811
02:08:42,538 --> 02:08:46,838
there's a lot of credibility credibility to that i think that that explains a lot of what we're

1812
02:08:46,838 --> 02:08:54,358
seeing and i i align with that theory quite a bit um that i think that we are quote unquote in a

1813
02:08:54,358 --> 02:08:59,978
forth turning. And we're seeing a lot of those same things. I mean, historically, there's a lot

1814
02:08:59,978 --> 02:09:07,298
of these, obviously, a very common phrase is history doesn't repeat, but it often rhymes.

1815
02:09:08,038 --> 02:09:13,018
And that's just another way to look at, you know, the fact that we have these events that kind of,

1816
02:09:13,118 --> 02:09:18,338
they set cool, cool events throughout our history. And we're at a pretty big inflection point in a

1817
02:09:18,338 --> 02:09:23,038
lot of different types of cycles. You know, we have different business cycles, we have political

1818
02:09:23,038 --> 02:09:31,818
cycles we have you know fourth turning type cycles these uh ideological cycles um and uh

1819
02:09:31,818 --> 02:09:38,318
a lot of these are kind of converging right now and at the center of this is bitcoin and

1820
02:09:38,318 --> 02:09:41,898
i think that that's really cool because as bitcoiners we get a front row seat

1821
02:09:41,898 --> 02:09:47,858
but it is also there's a lot at stake there's a lot on the line and um

1822
02:09:47,858 --> 02:09:52,978
you know if i had to say like where are we going to be at in 10 years i think it's going to be up

1823
02:09:52,978 --> 02:09:59,518
us today what we do today i think we actually as bitcoiners again back to the point where i think

1824
02:09:59,518 --> 02:10:04,098
bitcoin's really at the heart of a lot of what's going to happen for the next 10 years if we can

1825
02:10:04,098 --> 02:10:12,598
build a system around ourselves because you know people will say yeah we'll tick tock next block

1826
02:10:12,598 --> 02:10:17,858
bitcoin's never going to stop working obviously you know we know that but and i've also said it

1827
02:10:17,858 --> 02:10:24,658
this way like you can't ban bitcoin but you can ban yourself from bitcoin you know as geopolitically

1828
02:10:24,658 --> 02:10:31,238
speaking so bitcoin is going to be okay but bitcoiners are what what really matters it's

1829
02:10:31,238 --> 02:10:35,538
the bitcoiners it's what the system we have for us and the amount of freedom that we have at 10

1830
02:10:35,538 --> 02:10:43,698
years you know so that's why i am so passionate about teaching people how important it is to use

1831
02:10:43,698 --> 02:10:52,938
bitcoin as your money buy sell you know um any type of trend transaction payroll you know whatever

1832
02:10:52,938 --> 02:10:58,958
anytime anytime you're touching money it ought to be bitcoin because this is what moves us closer

1833
02:10:58,958 --> 02:11:05,838
to the freedom that we want in 10 years and takes power away from those that are incentivized to

1834
02:11:05,838 --> 02:11:16,218
steal more from us. And so I am optimistic. I think we have a very good shot at, with the amount

1835
02:11:16,218 --> 02:11:22,998
of freedom that we have in the United States, we do still have some semblance of fair law and

1836
02:11:22,998 --> 02:11:28,938
constitution that people actually still believe in. I believe in this constitution and I swore

1837
02:11:28,938 --> 02:11:33,878
an oath to protect and defend it. And I will until probably the day I die, unless it conflicted with

1838
02:11:33,878 --> 02:11:39,658
something else that i believe it more right but i think the constant the american constitution is

1839
02:11:39,658 --> 02:11:47,498
is very unique i think it is something that is worth you know dying to protect um and you know

1840
02:11:47,498 --> 02:11:54,098
so that that's where i stand on things i think that because we have these beliefs in our country

1841
02:11:54,098 --> 02:11:59,558
i think we actually have a good chance to do something i think that every other nation maybe

1842
02:11:59,558 --> 02:12:04,038
not every other nation, but at least almost all of them, they're all handicapped because

1843
02:12:04,038 --> 02:12:07,558
fundamentally, and this is my personal belief, it's fundamentally because they don't have

1844
02:12:07,558 --> 02:12:08,838
the right to the second amendment.

1845
02:12:09,598 --> 02:12:11,378
They do not have the right to bear arms.

1846
02:12:11,838 --> 02:12:15,038
And I think it is because we have the right to bear arms, we can keep the government in

1847
02:12:15,038 --> 02:12:15,258
check.

1848
02:12:15,698 --> 02:12:21,878
And it's not necessarily that we have to threaten to, you know, civil war or anything

1849
02:12:21,878 --> 02:12:24,638
like that, but it is there, right?

1850
02:12:24,638 --> 02:12:28,598
That is a very rare and unlikely possibility, but it is there.

1851
02:12:28,598 --> 02:12:50,338
And what a lot of people probably don't even remember, we talked about the Canadian trucker protest, the summit. And there was this freedom convoy that happened and the Canadian government was shutting people's bank accounts down, stealing their money, you know, and doing all these terrible things.

1852
02:12:50,338 --> 02:12:59,118
and the truckers weren't giving up and it wasn't very popular news but there was a similar movement

1853
02:12:59,118 --> 02:13:05,118
happening in the united states at the exact same time yep i so uh i don't were you guys in Kansas

1854
02:13:05,118 --> 02:13:09,898
City it was I was not now it was featured on have you ever seen the uh the YouTube channel channel

1855
02:13:09,898 --> 02:13:16,278
five news they did it I don't know yeah it's a I forget the guy's name but um yeah he did a whole

1856
02:13:16,278 --> 02:13:23,198
episode on it it was big i mean it was not 50 guys so so describe this though what is significant

1857
02:13:23,198 --> 02:13:27,218
right so i don't i don't know all the details i'll tell you what i know from my perspective

1858
02:13:27,218 --> 02:13:31,578
i'm close to a major highway that runs through the state of kansas which is like the heart of

1859
02:13:31,578 --> 02:13:39,358
the country right and so we had you know thousands of trucks going past where i live zero news

1860
02:13:39,358 --> 02:13:44,518
coverage zero news coverage right and so they were guess where they were all headed washington dc

1861
02:13:44,518 --> 02:14:05,278
They were literally in their trucks halfway across the country. And you know what happened? Canada gave up on the trucker protest. They, you know, they're like, all right, fine, you know, just we're good. We're done. Get them out of here. We'll appease you in the near term.

1862
02:14:05,278 --> 02:14:10,558
um and so they basically kind of they they ended that and gave up because of the united states and

1863
02:14:10,558 --> 02:14:14,798
what it really came down to is that all these truckers they were all you know essentially

1864
02:14:14,798 --> 02:14:20,658
potentially armed you know what i mean yeah right so they didn't have that luxury in canada

1865
02:14:20,658 --> 02:14:27,838
in the united states you're you know you're legally allowed to arm yourself and so they

1866
02:14:27,838 --> 02:14:35,258
didn't want this escalating into a physical um conflict with you know bullets right and so uh

1867
02:14:35,258 --> 02:14:40,778
Not to say that that was guaranteed to happen, but again, it came down to the fact that it was a possibility.

1868
02:14:41,598 --> 02:14:53,618
And you don't want, like, really angry Americans with a lot of guns in one location that are very passionate, and then you start taking away their freedoms that the Constitution says you can kill people if they do.

1869
02:14:53,618 --> 02:15:08,818
You know, so I think that that that is ultimately in my in my mind, a big reason for what keeps the whole world in check is the Americans have the ability to keep our own government in check to some degree.

1870
02:15:09,018 --> 02:15:10,618
Now, in practice, that doesn't always.

1871
02:15:10,918 --> 02:15:14,458
Yeah. Yeah. The base layer is kinetic power.

1872
02:15:14,578 --> 02:15:16,558
I mean, it comes down to proof back to proof of work.

1873
02:15:16,558 --> 02:15:19,498
I mean, yeah, I remember what I was going to say.

1874
02:15:19,498 --> 02:15:24,178
Just in case anybody was like, oh, man, he was on, you know, he needed to finish his thought.

1875
02:15:24,618 --> 02:15:31,438
I was talking at the summit about Tether and how it is basically the infrastructure portion of a CBDC.

1876
02:15:32,138 --> 02:15:34,638
That's all I was going to say is that Tether is the infrastructure.

1877
02:15:34,898 --> 02:15:37,698
It is the money component of a CBDC.

1878
02:15:38,158 --> 02:15:43,258
So you kind of have stable coins plus digital ID.

1879
02:15:43,818 --> 02:15:44,598
Yeah, yeah.

1880
02:15:44,598 --> 02:15:46,098
There was a control of the government.

1881
02:15:46,518 --> 02:15:48,878
That is what is, that is a CBDC.

1882
02:15:48,998 --> 02:15:49,198
Yeah.

1883
02:15:49,498 --> 02:15:55,298
yeah that was what i was gonna ties together very nicely yeah the the fact of having tying

1884
02:15:55,298 --> 02:16:02,918
the identity to it definitely turns it up a notch into a cbdc yeah well that's all i got man

1885
02:16:02,918 --> 02:16:08,518
i'll tell you what this has been absolutely fantastic i really uh can't thank you enough

1886
02:16:08,518 --> 02:16:14,198
um this is wonderful adam smeka um you are uh you're a father you're a christian you're an

1887
02:16:14,198 --> 02:16:22,518
entrepreneur. We thank you for your product. We thank you for your passion. We thank you for your

1888
02:16:22,518 --> 02:16:30,058
service. And we thank you for being here and taking the time to come be with us. We want to let you go

1889
02:16:30,058 --> 02:16:37,139
and we want to want to make sure that people know where to follow you on X and for Manowallet. And

1890
02:16:37,139 --> 02:16:42,598
then anything you want to say going out, the floor is yours. Sure. First of all, thank you so much.

1891
02:16:42,598 --> 02:16:44,718
this was a pleasure it was really fun

1892
02:16:44,718 --> 02:16:47,158
looks like you guys actually put quite a bit of work

1893
02:16:47,158 --> 02:16:48,458
into this setup today so

1894
02:16:48,458 --> 02:16:50,979
it's surprising when you watch it but we do put work into it

1895
02:16:50,979 --> 02:16:52,838
but

1896
02:16:52,838 --> 02:16:54,878
no it's an honor thank you for so many

1897
02:16:54,878 --> 02:16:55,838
kind words

1898
02:16:55,838 --> 02:16:59,078
it in a way makes it

1899
02:16:59,078 --> 02:17:00,758
all worth it so we really appreciate that

1900
02:17:00,758 --> 02:17:02,898
I'm on x at Adam Seneca

1901
02:17:02,898 --> 02:17:05,038
just my name and then if you're interested

1902
02:17:05,038 --> 02:17:06,498
in the Bitcoin wallet

1903
02:17:06,498 --> 02:17:08,858
stuff it's at mana Bitcoin

1904
02:17:08,858 --> 02:17:10,938
just one word at mana Bitcoin

1905
02:17:10,938 --> 02:17:12,398
two N's on mana so

1906
02:17:13,078 --> 02:17:13,538
Right on.

1907
02:17:13,639 --> 02:17:13,758
Yeah.

1908
02:17:13,818 --> 02:17:15,479
Best follow you'll find all day, man.

1909
02:17:15,598 --> 02:17:16,538
Exciting stuff on X.

1910
02:17:16,578 --> 02:17:17,639
Always fun to read your stuff.

1911
02:17:17,998 --> 02:17:18,018
So.

1912
02:17:18,818 --> 02:17:21,838
I will definitely admit.

1913
02:17:22,678 --> 02:17:23,479
You're something little.

1914
02:17:23,878 --> 02:17:25,618
I am entertaining.

1915
02:17:26,038 --> 02:17:26,639
No, no.

1916
02:17:26,778 --> 02:17:27,479
If nothing else.

1917
02:17:28,398 --> 02:17:30,098
If nothing else, I'm entertaining.

1918
02:17:30,578 --> 02:17:30,818
Yeah.

1919
02:17:31,838 --> 02:17:32,438
All right.

1920
02:17:32,458 --> 02:17:32,838
Right on.

1921
02:17:32,979 --> 02:17:34,118
We're going to put the lid on this one.

1922
02:17:34,178 --> 02:17:34,398
Yeah.

1923
02:17:34,398 --> 02:17:34,678
Cut it.