1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,040 Caleb, welcome to the podcast. 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:06,920 Thanks for having me, Jake. 3 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:07,700 Appreciate it, man. 4 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:10,060 Yeah, very excited for today. 5 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:14,400 And the reason being is I'm going to learn something very specific. 6 00:00:14,860 --> 00:00:18,220 And where I want to start, we'll tail off into God knows what. 7 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:25,400 But on NOSTA, we were talking about the options strategy that you've been applying. 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,340 and I read lately it's probably the same strategy, 9 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,380 but on top of Bitcoin with the Ibit ETF. 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:34,780 But it sounds like you've done it before 11 00:00:34,780 --> 00:00:36,240 with other asset classes. 12 00:00:36,940 --> 00:00:38,340 So first of all, 13 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:40,940 what is a covered call option strategy 14 00:00:40,940 --> 00:00:42,780 and how are you applying that 15 00:00:42,780 --> 00:00:44,780 to your current Bitcoin use case? 16 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,260 Yeah, so it's a handful to unpack. 17 00:00:50,380 --> 00:00:52,480 So I'll do my best to- 18 00:00:52,480 --> 00:00:52,960 Take your time. 19 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:54,420 The most important thing. 20 00:00:55,400 --> 00:01:01,900 So first things first, there's two sides to the options. 21 00:01:02,540 --> 00:01:05,000 There's the covered calls and the cash secured puts, right? 22 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:14,540 And both of them generate premiums, which are essentially cash payments that hit your brokerage account. 23 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:17,760 And so I've been in the markets a long time. 24 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:19,840 I come from a traditional market background, right? 25 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:40,620 So I feel like every Bitcoiner has this like fork in the road from pre Bitcoin and post Bitcoin. And, and so I was already doing this before I was into Bitcoin and before I, you know, wanted that to be the primary asset class that I kind of hold my, my worth. 26 00:01:40,620 --> 00:01:47,400 in. But we all have our own skills, right? We all have our own set of skills. And so 27 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:55,280 I asked myself and kind of kicked around the question, how do I continue to do what I do, 28 00:01:55,800 --> 00:02:00,920 but I can't unlearn what I've learned about Bitcoin? Because generally the two things 29 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:07,280 don't mesh really well. You hear, stay humble, stack stats, and I believe that. 30 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:12,500 So generally people will abandon traditional markets, right? 31 00:02:12,820 --> 00:02:16,020 And they'll start buying spot Bitcoin and they do that. 32 00:02:16,180 --> 00:02:26,400 So I wanted a way to utilize what I learned and continue to utilize that skill set while 33 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,600 allowing it to help me build my Bitcoin position. 34 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:41,400 So a covered call through the Bitcoin lens is thanks to the ETFs finally being proved after years of just rumors and things like that. 35 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:43,700 We finally got Bitcoin ETFs. 36 00:02:44,660 --> 00:02:50,980 And so now I can allocate traditional funding and traditional brokers towards that. 37 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:57,000 I can sell call options on iBit, which is essentially an agreement. 38 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:03,060 that I agree to sell the shares at a higher price at a date further down the road. 39 00:03:04,060 --> 00:03:07,220 And simply for entering into that agreement, I get an instant cash payment. 40 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:12,660 I then take those cash payments, start the process of withdraw the cash, 41 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:18,840 send the cash to my bank, bank to where I buy Bitcoin, 42 00:03:19,220 --> 00:03:22,060 buy the Bitcoin and send that Bitcoin to a wallet, right? 43 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,900 So it kind of sets off this domino effect now of a weekly transition. 44 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,160 So I do this once a week on Mondays. 45 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,720 And then obviously by the time the money moves, it's part of why we need Bitcoin. 46 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:34,720 Right. 47 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,560 It takes till Thursday or Friday to actually purchase Bitcoin with that money 48 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,840 because it has to clear, it has to transfer, it has to settle 49 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:43,680 and all those things. 50 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:49,520 So it's a week long process, but I've essentially taking it and added it to Bitcoin. 51 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,240 I don't know if that makes any sense, but that's that's 52 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:55,600 It's awesome. 53 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,220 I can see quickly how the workflow develops. 54 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,880 It's like, okay, now that the ETF exists, 55 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,500 what price am I comfortable selling an option at in the future? 56 00:04:05,980 --> 00:04:07,880 And what premium do I get for that? 57 00:04:08,140 --> 00:04:09,860 And presumably that's a scale, right? 58 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,380 If you say, oh, I'll sell it at 250 grand, it's sitting at 50. 59 00:04:13,500 --> 00:04:14,880 It's like, well, that's really unlikely. 60 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:16,840 I'll sell it at 75K. 61 00:04:16,980 --> 00:04:18,720 It's like, well, that actually could happen. 62 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,720 And that premium adjusts as a result, I guess. 63 00:04:22,540 --> 00:04:22,980 Exactly. 64 00:04:22,980 --> 00:04:32,340 And the beautiful thing is every contract that you take comes with a mathematical probability based on real time metrics, basically. 65 00:04:33,020 --> 00:04:41,380 So I know going in, if I have an 85% chance of maintaining my shares or a 92% chance or whatever it may be. 66 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:48,860 So obviously, the higher your odds are of maintaining your share. 67 00:04:48,860 --> 00:05:04,500 So say I really just want the cash flow. I really don't want to sell my Ibit. I can take a contract that is very unlikely to be called away. So the tradeoff with that is the cash flow is lower, right? You're not getting paid as much. 68 00:05:04,500 --> 00:05:12,260 So you have to find the sweet spot where the odds are still in your favor, but the juice is worth the squeeze, so to speak. 69 00:05:13,140 --> 00:05:22,860 And so that's pretty much where I like to live in that 75 to 85 percentile range where the odds are still pretty strongly in my favor. 70 00:05:23,860 --> 00:05:32,120 But they're skewed in a way that if things go wrong, there are some some backdoors as well. 71 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,160 Like one, you can just pay the going rate and get out of the contracts, right? 72 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,480 So you're going to take a loss technically if you do that. 73 00:05:40,280 --> 00:05:44,840 Or there's a great, great tool called rolling your contracts, which is essentially kicking 74 00:05:44,840 --> 00:05:45,940 the can down the road. 75 00:05:46,420 --> 00:05:50,080 You close out the current contract and simultaneously open a new one. 76 00:05:50,140 --> 00:05:55,540 It's further out down the road, higher up strike price, and you try to make a neutral 77 00:05:55,540 --> 00:05:57,740 premium exchange at best. 78 00:05:57,740 --> 00:06:13,780 So this allows you to benefit from the cash flow and the upside, right? Because that's the big thing with Bitcoin is we have, you know, 2025 kind of lulled us to sleep a little bit. 79 00:06:13,780 --> 00:06:21,320 But the reality is, you know, Bitcoin could go from 90 to 150 in a very short time period, right? 80 00:06:21,460 --> 00:06:29,400 So if you have any existing contracts, you know, you could be capped on your upside rather quickly if that move happens. 81 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,320 So you need to understand how to navigate out of that should it happen. 82 00:06:34,020 --> 00:06:35,360 And there are ways to do that. 83 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:36,240 Now, it's not perfect. 84 00:06:36,380 --> 00:06:37,460 There's always tradeoffs. 85 00:06:38,180 --> 00:06:42,540 But yeah, that's kind of the flow of setting this up. 86 00:06:42,540 --> 00:06:46,780 and you can do a traditional assets too. And I haven't completely abandoned that. But the great 87 00:06:46,780 --> 00:06:51,260 thing is the traditional assets, the cash flow they produce still flows to Bitcoin for me. So 88 00:06:51,260 --> 00:06:58,180 I've essentially used it to build a Bitcoin position through recurring routine cash flow from this. 89 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:05,780 Interesting. So in some ways can be summarized as like, this is a form of financial engineering, 90 00:07:05,780 --> 00:07:12,440 and it's a sophisticated, would you even call it investing? Or it's more like trading, really, 91 00:07:12,540 --> 00:07:22,500 the process that I love is the traditional world or what we were born into and then the future 92 00:07:22,500 --> 00:07:27,900 and it's like okay well I know how to do all this stuff how does it work with Bitcoin and that's why 93 00:07:27,900 --> 00:07:33,220 you get these extraordinarily unique conversations as podcasters because everyone's life's different 94 00:07:33,220 --> 00:07:38,700 and they bring different skills to the table and because money is the other side of every single 95 00:07:38,700 --> 00:07:44,140 transaction you will ever have, well, inevitably, everyone's skill set is also reapplied to Bitcoin 96 00:07:44,140 --> 00:07:50,360 in some way. What I particularly love about this is it's a way of putting your money, 97 00:07:51,700 --> 00:07:56,440 you're getting your money to work harder for you. And that is a great capital play, 98 00:07:56,620 --> 00:08:00,580 providing you have the intellectual property to actually do it, right? 99 00:08:01,860 --> 00:08:08,220 One question, just from a very simple perspective, to where does the cash come from to buy the IBID 100 00:08:08,220 --> 00:08:16,060 in the first place. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, so that and that so you just nailed a lot of things 101 00:08:16,060 --> 00:08:22,560 with what you just said. You know, some people use their hands and they go manually or consulting 102 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:28,180 or whatever. Yeah, exactly. You know, and this is just the skill set for me. So, you know, I come 103 00:08:28,180 --> 00:08:33,760 from a background. I've been an investor my whole life. I got out of college and just had always had 104 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:41,480 a fascination with it. So I began investing immediately and just building up my investments 105 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:52,460 early. And so I was part of a small business in 2019 that got acquired. I got a small payout that 106 00:08:52,460 --> 00:09:00,020 came with that as a minority owner. And even as a minority owner, you get this lump sum to add 107 00:09:00,020 --> 00:09:03,800 to what you've already been working on for a decade. 108 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,660 So January 2020 rolls around 109 00:09:07,660 --> 00:09:10,180 and my contract with the company 110 00:09:10,180 --> 00:09:12,520 kind of came to an end after the transition. 111 00:09:13,300 --> 00:09:15,520 And so I'm sitting around and I'm faced with, 112 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:16,800 okay, well, what's next? 113 00:09:17,180 --> 00:09:19,420 And I had this money and I've been an investor. 114 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,760 And so I'm asking myself, 115 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:24,680 is it real estate that I get into? 116 00:09:25,420 --> 00:09:27,820 Is it, do I just continue to plow money 117 00:09:27,820 --> 00:09:28,860 into the stock market? 118 00:09:28,860 --> 00:09:45,000 And at this point in my life, I had some Bitcoin, but I didn't understand Bitcoin. I had Bitcoin as just like a small percentage of a speculative portfolio. So I wasn't quite there. And 2020 was kind of the year I felt on that rabbit hole. 119 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:53,160 So it all led to me having a lump sum of capital just sitting and saying, well, what can I do with this? 120 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,020 And I eventually fell on this rabbit hole. 121 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,700 It took a few years to perfect the strategies. 122 00:10:01,220 --> 00:10:08,440 And then so my thing is, as long as it is continuously producing outstanding returns, 123 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:17,720 We had a 46% CAGR in 2023, a 44% CAGR in 2024. 124 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:23,560 And we were at 25% six months into 2025. 125 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:28,600 I haven't done that year-end review yet for the whole year, but it's trending along those 126 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,440 same lines as far as the compound annual growth rate. 127 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:43,000 So to pair that with Bitcoin, I start to think, well, I could take this lump sum of money and I can buy Bitcoin and I can be done. 128 00:10:43,260 --> 00:10:43,420 Right. 129 00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:44,020 That's. 130 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:45,940 But then two problems come. 131 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:47,140 The cash flow stops. 132 00:10:48,220 --> 00:10:52,780 And also, like, that's the amount of Bitcoin I'm going to own. 133 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:53,240 Right. 134 00:10:53,300 --> 00:10:57,560 I can't get any more because that's that's my worth right there. 135 00:10:57,560 --> 00:11:02,040 Now I can go to work and I can produce cash some other way. 136 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:18,440 But in my head, I know the returns that I've produced in the past doing this. And I say, OK, well, if I can do this for just two years and get a 45 percent CAGR, I have essentially replicated my pile here with my pile here. 137 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:30,860 So essentially two years at 45 percent, you've doubled your money. So my goal was, well, let's just do this instead and push all the cash flow into Bitcoin and see what happens. 138 00:11:31,560 --> 00:11:33,740 And so thankfully, Bitcoin didn't run away on me. 139 00:11:34,540 --> 00:11:46,740 It was something that that has been had some obviously had some volatility up and down, but has been choppy just from a standpoint of it gave me the time to bet on a position doing this. 140 00:11:47,660 --> 00:11:49,260 And so hindsight's 20-20. 141 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:50,920 Maybe this doesn't work at all. 142 00:11:51,020 --> 00:11:56,660 Bitcoin rips and you say, oh, I should have lump summed in while it was, you know, at 70K. 143 00:11:56,660 --> 00:11:59,140 But thankfully for me, it did work. 144 00:11:59,140 --> 00:12:07,000 And it is something that allowed me to replicate that position through cash flow from the original lump sum of cash. 145 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:15,380 So now, because of that, I'm pretty married to having both exist for in my life because you need cash flow. 146 00:12:16,300 --> 00:12:26,020 And and so this continues to double as a cash flow creator that flows into Bitcoin, but allows me to exploit what I know and what I spent years learning and doing. 147 00:12:26,020 --> 00:12:31,700 So that's kind of what the whole cycle for me. 148 00:12:32,180 --> 00:12:32,860 I love it, Caleb. 149 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:33,420 Well done. 150 00:12:33,740 --> 00:12:35,060 Really amazing progress. 151 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:35,760 It's cool. 152 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:42,200 So many directions I want to go in, but to continue to kind of pull this strategy apart, 153 00:12:42,820 --> 00:12:47,600 some obvious advantages to the cash flow is the debt market. 154 00:12:48,300 --> 00:12:50,200 And maybe you want to buy a house. 155 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:51,340 It's like, okay, I need to get a mortgage. 156 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,680 One of the difficulties I've had is just a pure Bitcoin buy and hold 157 00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:55,980 because you don't create an income. 158 00:12:56,020 --> 00:12:59,920 And so the debt boys are like, mate, you have no demonstrative affordability. 159 00:13:00,060 --> 00:13:04,060 You want to buy a house, but you need to have the capital to do that because I can't lend 160 00:13:04,060 --> 00:13:06,360 you anything because I can't prove you'll pay me back. 161 00:13:07,780 --> 00:13:12,800 And it's that case of like, yes, of course, like the monetary system that we were born 162 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:13,840 into has its problems. 163 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,640 But equally as an investor, it's like, what's the playing field? 164 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,940 Okay, well, if you can actually take some leverage in a smart way, then that also makes 165 00:13:21,940 --> 00:13:27,260 sense because in theory, you do it in a sophisticated manner and not too much risk, etc. 166 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,160 So I'm all for using the tools that are available. 167 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,520 And okay, so what intrigues me then is, okay, so you're creating that. 168 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:41,440 And so those CAGR numbers that you're mentioning, that's not the Bitcoin price itself. 169 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:46,680 That is the return on the capital employed for this specific strategy. 170 00:13:46,680 --> 00:14:13,860 Correct. So if Bitcoin is doing itself 25%, I mean, last year it was actually down, right? My net asset value on January the 3rd versus 2025 versus 2026, actually 2026, I had a horrible year. And during that process, I made some reallocations in some real estate, which I didn't own before. And that was expensive process. And we also lived without an employment contract for a year. So there's a number of reasons why it happened. 171 00:14:13,860 --> 00:14:16,360 But the main one was the Bitcoin price. 172 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:20,180 Just didn't run in the way that I expected. 173 00:14:20,180 --> 00:14:33,802 Now of course the timeline that you take in some ways the calendar that we live by is a totally arbitrary thing to Bitcoin Bitcoin doesn care if it the 1st of January 2026 or 2025 right It this whole new thing 174 00:14:35,342 --> 00:14:39,582 But okay, so how replicable is this strategy you've developed for other people? 175 00:14:40,182 --> 00:14:43,922 I'm immediately drawn to the idea of like paying you some kind of consulting fee 176 00:14:43,922 --> 00:14:47,422 to learn it in more specific details or wrapping it up in some kind of course 177 00:14:47,422 --> 00:14:49,302 or running some kind of fund. 178 00:14:49,762 --> 00:14:51,142 So where do you take it from here? 179 00:14:51,142 --> 00:14:54,442 And I know dad life is just around the corner. 180 00:14:55,922 --> 00:14:59,602 Because another thing for me that's so cool about the buy and hold of Bitcoin, it's your time. 181 00:15:00,422 --> 00:15:01,842 You get your time back. 182 00:15:01,942 --> 00:15:04,682 You're like, oh my God, well, I'm not going to go work for someone else. 183 00:15:05,122 --> 00:15:06,222 I'm going to be at home. 184 00:15:07,582 --> 00:15:09,422 So there's lots to draw from there, Caleb. 185 00:15:09,502 --> 00:15:10,962 But what resonates the most? 186 00:15:12,082 --> 00:15:14,842 Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head. 187 00:15:14,842 --> 00:15:34,302 And to take this back a little bit, exactly as you said, I started on X, just like a lot of people who've made their way to Noster have, and literally just documented my journey, shared out loud, and did consulting for a long time. 188 00:15:34,302 --> 00:15:41,142 And what I learned was I didn't love the, it was great at first. 189 00:15:41,882 --> 00:15:51,022 And then as the strategy worked and performed well and my follower base grew and word of mouth grew. 190 00:15:51,242 --> 00:15:57,262 And then I was spending six to eight hours on the phone a day with just different hourly consulting. 191 00:15:57,262 --> 00:16:02,262 And that wasn't the way that I wanted to spend my life, you know? 192 00:16:03,282 --> 00:16:03,642 Interesting. 193 00:16:04,302 --> 00:16:23,462 Actually, the sign behind me, it started as that. I started a little investing group, so to speak, where we've put together our frameworks, we've put together our tools and even all of our trades go there. 194 00:16:23,462 --> 00:16:31,442 And we essentially believe that many folks can learn this if they want to. 195 00:16:32,642 --> 00:16:36,302 It does have some nuance and you got to want to learn it, right? 196 00:16:36,462 --> 00:16:42,222 Like, so I wouldn't say everyone can learn it, but I think that those who really want 197 00:16:42,222 --> 00:16:47,822 to learn it can, if they come in with the appropriate demeanor, the appropriate expectations 198 00:16:47,822 --> 00:16:49,562 and things like that. 199 00:16:50,202 --> 00:16:52,902 Because we always say it's not sexy. 200 00:16:52,902 --> 00:16:56,122 We target a half to 1% a week. 201 00:16:56,902 --> 00:17:02,002 And at a glance, and especially to an inexperienced, you kind of scoff at that. 202 00:17:02,102 --> 00:17:05,122 You're like, I know a guy who did 10% in one trade. 203 00:17:05,362 --> 00:17:13,782 It's like, okay, but layering a half to 1% weekly on top of each other week in and week 204 00:17:13,782 --> 00:17:15,282 out really adds up, right? 205 00:17:15,382 --> 00:17:18,482 It's what leads to those compound annual growth rates. 206 00:17:18,482 --> 00:17:27,022 So we launched a fund and we believe that people can do it, or not a fund, a website and things like that. 207 00:17:29,342 --> 00:17:35,222 I do help people in that way. I help people learn how to do this and just apply it to their life. 208 00:17:36,182 --> 00:17:38,282 And then that's kind of the whole thing. 209 00:17:39,742 --> 00:17:47,142 I've been approached many times to do a managed active fund, to even have the sponsors in place for a hedge fund. 210 00:17:48,482 --> 00:17:57,962 And that's just not where I want to go with it right now, just because I think that will bring a lot more stress and pressure in my life. 211 00:17:57,962 --> 00:18:07,602 And we all have to decide if the trade-off is worth that, you know, just from a standpoint of I like the way life sits right now. 212 00:18:07,722 --> 00:18:16,042 I like doing my trades. I like helping the couple hundred people that we have on our website that come every week and do this as well. 213 00:18:16,042 --> 00:18:22,242 And so for me, it's hard to weigh those trade-offs. 214 00:18:22,402 --> 00:18:28,062 But with a baby on the way, first baby on the way, it kind of is like, hey, it's not the time. 215 00:18:28,982 --> 00:18:39,862 I mean, I still have a sponsor who I'll be in New York City next month to hold another meeting over this. 216 00:18:40,642 --> 00:18:45,162 And I'll be on the New York Stock Exchange trading floor and all of that stuff. 217 00:18:45,162 --> 00:18:49,182 And it's fun and it's enticing and intriguing. 218 00:18:50,002 --> 00:18:56,242 So maybe one day that's in the cards because the reality is, is a lot of people don't understand. 219 00:18:56,882 --> 00:19:04,942 They may understand the mechanics of how this works, but they don't understand how to apply it week in and week out and make it work. 220 00:19:04,942 --> 00:19:11,142 Right. Because the reality is, is that it very much can work, but it's like anything else. 221 00:19:11,142 --> 00:19:32,062 People get greedy. People break the rules that you kind of have set for yourself in an attempt to do 2% a week or 3% a week. These numbers that really sound doable, but when you kind of run the math, you say, okay, it's not normal to do 300% a year. 222 00:19:32,062 --> 00:19:38,702 and to get 300% a year, you're probably taking substantial risk. And I continue to think the 223 00:19:38,702 --> 00:19:43,622 best risk adjacent way to get that is probably just buy and hold Bitcoin, right? It's probably 224 00:19:43,622 --> 00:19:50,782 just to do that. So our way beats the compound annual growth rate of the traditional assets, 225 00:19:50,782 --> 00:19:59,802 S&P 500 and things like that. It's a little bit up in the work scale, right? So it's not set it 226 00:19:59,802 --> 00:20:03,462 and forget it, but it is very much. 227 00:20:04,822 --> 00:20:07,762 We do a little bit of work on Mondays and that's it. 228 00:20:08,962 --> 00:20:14,962 So my place becomes a ghost town Tuesday through Friday and the weekend. 229 00:20:15,222 --> 00:20:17,962 We do everything on Mondays and then you just leave it alone. 230 00:20:17,962 --> 00:20:26,022 So to add 15 to 30 minutes of work to your day on a Monday to take returns from 10% to 231 00:20:26,022 --> 00:20:35,262 40 plus percent is well worth the trade-off in my opinion. And so people who have capital sitting 232 00:20:35,262 --> 00:20:42,742 idle and are able to take this and slowly apply it, we think it's a good fit for their lives. I 233 00:20:42,742 --> 00:20:48,762 think it's a good fit for their lives. And so we don't want to push it on anybody, but I continue 234 00:20:48,762 --> 00:20:53,802 to just try to share what we do and what we've done in the past and with the newfound Bitcoin 235 00:20:53,802 --> 00:21:02,082 lens of just acquiring more Bitcoin. It's really fascinating, Caleb. There's so many things I want 236 00:21:02,082 --> 00:21:09,102 to ask about. Again, I'm a bit stumped as to which way to go, but let's do this. The strategy that 237 00:21:09,102 --> 00:21:16,142 you've talked through is a strategy that's worked in other markets and has been reapplied to Bitcoin, 238 00:21:16,442 --> 00:21:20,382 which I love. It's kind of like, oh, I went to Mexico and saw these incredible, 239 00:21:20,382 --> 00:21:24,402 incredible tacos. I'm going to bring them to Australia. Oh, what a surprise. Everyone loves 240 00:21:24,402 --> 00:21:30,722 them. You're taking a product that has a market fit somewhere else and just reapplying it to a 241 00:21:30,722 --> 00:21:36,702 new place. That's awesome. One of the things that I think that the traditional investment market 242 00:21:36,702 --> 00:21:44,182 underplays is counterparty risk. And so you go to a wealth manager and they give you a diversified 243 00:21:44,182 --> 00:21:48,682 portfolio of stuff. And you've got to trust the wealth manager to make the right decisions. 244 00:21:48,682 --> 00:21:52,582 They still get paid regardless of performance, their 1% fee per annum. 245 00:21:53,102 --> 00:21:58,362 And you have no idea really what you own because it's a bunch of stuff that you're not familiar with. 246 00:22:00,062 --> 00:22:02,882 And all of it requires trust that you'll get your money back. 247 00:22:03,642 --> 00:22:07,722 Now, the big thing with Bitcoin is obviously get your self-custody correct. 248 00:22:08,302 --> 00:22:09,822 No one's taking that shit from you. 249 00:22:10,302 --> 00:22:14,982 And so I've become much, much, much more aware of counterparty risk. 250 00:22:15,442 --> 00:22:17,482 And so what's the risk of using iBit? 251 00:22:17,482 --> 00:22:22,842 What's the risk of using these brokerage accounts? I'd love to know how you think that through. 252 00:22:22,842 --> 00:22:28,282 It's obviously a trade-off you're willing to make with a portion of your stack. Presumably, 253 00:22:28,282 --> 00:22:33,482 over time, as I think this through, if I'm creating a yield on that process, 254 00:22:33,482 --> 00:22:37,722 and I'm stacking more and more Bitcoin into self-custody, that counterparty risk naturally 255 00:22:37,722 --> 00:22:45,322 becomes lower because your portfolio is not all attached to that kind of investment process. 256 00:22:45,322 --> 00:22:48,442 So yeah, how do you think through counterparty risk in today's world? 257 00:22:49,002 --> 00:22:56,602 Totally. Yeah, totally understand. Yeah, it's a real risk and one that should be re-evaluated 258 00:22:56,602 --> 00:23:06,362 daily, I believe. So I think the biggest thing in the traditional markets, you have FDIC insurance, 259 00:23:06,362 --> 00:23:16,702 right, in the States. And so your brokerages are generally insured up to 250K. I'm sure it's 260 00:23:16,702 --> 00:23:26,142 played out to where those bailouts have happened. But I try to look for good publicly traded brokers 261 00:23:26,142 --> 00:23:32,782 or whatnot that have a clean balance sheet, right, that are taking care of themselves. 262 00:23:32,782 --> 00:23:46,622 But it goes back to what you said is it's not self-custody in a hardware wallet in which you have taken full control of your keys. 263 00:23:47,862 --> 00:23:49,382 So there is the trade-off. 264 00:23:50,502 --> 00:24:00,182 I think that in stages of fiat currencies, things can get messy and insurance is meaningless. 265 00:24:00,182 --> 00:24:19,422 So it feels like we aren't there yet. So I guess I say I still largely trust the institutions that I use simply because their balance sheets are clean, mostly clean, and they're ran fairly responsibly. 266 00:24:19,422 --> 00:24:37,862 That being said, there is still trust required. Right. And so as things degrade more and more, as the currencies continue to devalue and collapse and things like that, it's something that eventually could become too risky to do. 267 00:24:38,762 --> 00:24:42,842 And so it's funny when I talk to my, I come from the traditional finance world. 268 00:24:42,842 --> 00:24:48,642 When I talk to those people, it's the exact opposite mindset, right? 269 00:24:48,882 --> 00:24:50,302 Oh, there's no insurance in Bitcoin. 270 00:24:50,542 --> 00:24:54,102 There's no, it's, I got to take care of this myself. 271 00:24:54,342 --> 00:24:56,042 What's the customer service number? 272 00:24:56,562 --> 00:24:58,882 You know, it's just a completely different mindset. 273 00:24:58,882 --> 00:25:14,362 And so I'd be lying if I didn't say I still have some of the old traditional mindset of some of these institutions are safe for now from a standpoint. 274 00:25:14,362 --> 00:25:30,562 But listen, fractional reserve banking, you know, I think any bank is in danger if enough people are riled up enough to try to go withdraw their money at once. 275 00:25:31,282 --> 00:25:34,002 So there's always those fears and those concerns. 276 00:25:34,162 --> 00:25:36,742 And it's why it's why people hoard gold and they're safe. 277 00:25:36,822 --> 00:25:41,382 It's why people have Bitcoin in a cold storage wallet, you know. 278 00:25:41,382 --> 00:26:02,402 So for me, it's one that's constantly being reevaluated. And as you said, has gotten less and less risky as I've gotten more and more stats in a wallet and taking that risk off the table some to where while I wouldn't want to go through it, it wouldn't be the end of everything if it just woke up one day and it was gone. 279 00:26:02,402 --> 00:26:10,602 So that will continue to be a thing because eventually the Bitcoin wallet will outweigh. 280 00:26:10,882 --> 00:26:15,142 And so with each week that passes, it stabilizes more and more. 281 00:26:15,362 --> 00:26:17,022 And so that's kind of the way I'm looking at it. 282 00:26:17,222 --> 00:26:23,382 And so, you know, 2026, we're all hopeful will be a good year for Bitcoin. 283 00:26:23,382 --> 00:26:32,162 And as the price goes up to that, even more sways at risk of just more of it being over here than over here. 284 00:26:32,162 --> 00:26:49,142 And so right now that's where I'm at. And so it helps to have a little bit of experience in both worlds, I feel, to understand self-custody, but to understand how to choose a broker that's not sketchy or in financial ruin. 285 00:26:49,142 --> 00:26:56,182 if i was to think about how i would look at a portfolio quote unquote or your net asset 286 00:26:56,182 --> 00:27:01,062 statement is probably a better way of saying it um you know you want to be thinking about capital 287 00:27:01,062 --> 00:27:08,102 growth you want to be thinking about capital protection and cash flow and then in in the past 288 00:27:08,102 --> 00:27:13,142 it'd be like a fourth bucket which might be just precious metals you know your gold and it's like 289 00:27:13,142 --> 00:27:16,322 Okay, so Bitcoin's pretty good at capital growth. 290 00:27:16,662 --> 00:27:17,722 It's got you covered there. 291 00:27:18,322 --> 00:27:22,422 It's actually pretty good at capital protection over a decent time horizon. 292 00:27:23,362 --> 00:27:25,702 Cash flow, Bitcoin, no can do. 293 00:27:26,482 --> 00:27:28,602 And it is essentially a precious metal. 294 00:27:29,342 --> 00:27:34,582 So for me, that four-bucket net asset statement is really precious metals. 295 00:27:34,802 --> 00:27:37,962 To me, I'm like, if you understand Bitcoin, why are you buying gold? 296 00:27:38,562 --> 00:27:41,242 And that's why the current gold price action is so interesting, 297 00:27:41,242 --> 00:27:43,782 because it's probably a better reflection of the fact 298 00:27:43,782 --> 00:27:46,502 that most people just don't get what Bitcoin is. 299 00:27:46,862 --> 00:27:46,962 Yeah. 300 00:27:48,282 --> 00:27:51,622 And I do subscribe to this idea of Bitcoin as a slingshot. 301 00:27:51,822 --> 00:27:52,762 So at some point, 302 00:27:52,802 --> 00:27:56,622 it's just going to absolutely fly past that growth rate of gold. 303 00:27:57,142 --> 00:27:57,562 I agree. 304 00:27:57,742 --> 00:28:02,242 But where I'm going with this is like to generate cash flow, 305 00:28:02,762 --> 00:28:04,522 you know, having cash flow is an important part 306 00:28:04,522 --> 00:28:06,162 of this wealth strategy for anyone. 307 00:28:06,702 --> 00:28:08,522 And so taking counterparty risk on 308 00:28:08,522 --> 00:28:10,682 or any manner of risk that you might come up with, 309 00:28:10,682 --> 00:28:14,062 well, it's absolutely worth it in some scenarios. 310 00:28:14,062 --> 00:28:15,942 So I'm not against that by any means. 311 00:28:16,042 --> 00:28:17,122 And if anything, I'm like, 312 00:28:17,202 --> 00:28:19,142 what a brilliant position to have built yourself, Caleb. 313 00:28:19,302 --> 00:28:21,262 It's like, okay, you're slowly but surely adding 314 00:28:21,262 --> 00:28:24,202 to that long-term capital growth, capital protection play 315 00:28:24,202 --> 00:28:27,422 at the same time as generating cashflow 316 00:28:27,422 --> 00:28:29,062 in an area where you have expertise. 317 00:28:29,062 --> 00:28:30,502 And that is your edge. 318 00:28:30,802 --> 00:28:32,822 And that's what I'm always looking for as an investor. 319 00:28:32,942 --> 00:28:34,102 It's like, what's someone's edge? 320 00:28:34,202 --> 00:28:37,002 I'm like, ah, what are you doing with your money? 321 00:28:37,362 --> 00:28:39,462 So that phrase, like, ask a man what he owns, 322 00:28:39,462 --> 00:28:41,462 not what he's doing or not what he thinks. 323 00:28:41,462 --> 00:28:43,062 It's so much better. 324 00:28:43,062 --> 00:28:44,462 It's like just teach what you're actually doing 325 00:28:44,462 --> 00:28:45,462 and what is the result. 326 00:28:45,462 --> 00:28:46,462 Oh, wow. 327 00:28:46,462 --> 00:28:49,162 30, 40, 50% CAGR. 328 00:28:49,162 --> 00:28:51,162 What a brilliant result to be getting. 329 00:28:51,162 --> 00:29:01,924 What I love to do though Caleb is slightly cycle back to this idea of selling consulting and what i think is interesting is the further you get along this bitcoin journey the further 330 00:29:01,924 --> 00:29:07,684 you start to question your time and so where did you get to with that so it just the trade-off 331 00:29:07,684 --> 00:29:13,124 wasn't worth it like selling your time for people you're like actually i just i'd prefer just to do 332 00:29:13,124 --> 00:29:17,444 my investing and not have to do that so just run me through how that felt at the time because i 333 00:29:17,444 --> 00:29:20,204 I think it's something that I've certainly got to myself. 334 00:29:20,204 --> 00:29:24,684 I could sell consulting, but do I really want to have a calendar open to any old punter 335 00:29:24,684 --> 00:29:25,684 to book a time? 336 00:29:25,684 --> 00:29:27,524 I've got three tiny kids. 337 00:29:27,524 --> 00:29:31,204 You boot yourself all this position of freedom and then you're clogging it up again. 338 00:29:31,204 --> 00:29:33,204 That didn't make sense for me. 339 00:29:33,204 --> 00:29:36,104 Yeah, it's the same cycle that I went through. 340 00:29:36,104 --> 00:29:38,104 Free time. 341 00:29:38,104 --> 00:29:40,824 Maybe you booked that first consulting gig and it feels exciting. 342 00:29:40,824 --> 00:29:44,324 You're like, oh, okay, someone wants to hear what I have to say and they're willing to 343 00:29:44,324 --> 00:29:45,324 pay. 344 00:29:45,324 --> 00:29:46,324 That's really cool. 345 00:29:46,324 --> 00:29:47,324 It's really fascinating. 346 00:29:47,444 --> 00:29:50,084 And so I went through this cycle. 347 00:29:50,424 --> 00:29:51,264 I got too busy. 348 00:29:51,764 --> 00:29:56,764 I raised my prices and I got too busy again and I raised my prices again. 349 00:29:56,764 --> 00:30:16,664 And then I got to the point where I don't want to say I was done raising prices, but I continued to charge what I felt was reasonable and made sense for my time. 350 00:30:16,664 --> 00:30:21,804 but then just realized I don't think I can charge what I feel my time is worth at this point. 351 00:30:21,804 --> 00:30:28,044 And essentially getting to that point of, I don't think there's a dollar amount to make me do this for now. 352 00:30:28,264 --> 00:30:32,144 And that's not to say that I would never do it again. 353 00:30:32,484 --> 00:30:34,144 You know, things always change. 354 00:30:34,444 --> 00:30:45,164 And I feel like I go through seasons of really enjoying being social and pressing in the world. 355 00:30:45,164 --> 00:30:59,704 And then I really enjoy disappearing into the shadows and just being in my home with my wife and just hanging out and living life and maximizing just what we're doing. 356 00:30:59,964 --> 00:31:03,744 So it just got to a point where it was no longer worth the tradeoff. 357 00:31:05,144 --> 00:31:12,564 And then, too, you constantly come across, does this person value my time? 358 00:31:12,564 --> 00:31:30,624 You know, if you're 15 minutes late to a Zoom call, if you constantly cancel meetings, if you just, you know, various things like that, where it's like eventually get to the point where it's just like I've fired I've fired people that hired me. 359 00:31:31,284 --> 00:31:33,784 You know, it's just like, hey, listen, this is going to work. 360 00:31:34,544 --> 00:31:38,424 And so for me, it's all about the trade off has to be worth it. 361 00:31:38,424 --> 00:31:42,504 And it's time is very scarce. Right. 362 00:31:42,564 --> 00:31:53,484 We've only got so much of it. And eventually I just said, I can't sit in front of this computer screen for hours and hours a day all week long. 363 00:31:53,624 --> 00:32:04,064 You know, I live in a national park. So like just outside these doors is world class whitewater and mountains and mountain bikes and all of this stuff. 364 00:32:04,064 --> 00:32:11,624 And so that was just the lure for me. But the hunger to still build relationships and teach didn't leave. 365 00:32:11,624 --> 00:32:13,684 I just wanted it to be looked different. 366 00:32:14,564 --> 00:32:22,584 And so the more scalable solution was to do something in mass and just publish and help 367 00:32:22,584 --> 00:32:30,624 those who were more okay with maybe not as much consulting like instance, but just more 368 00:32:30,624 --> 00:32:35,164 group and, and, and group oriented content. 369 00:32:35,404 --> 00:32:36,444 And that's kind of where we settled. 370 00:32:36,444 --> 00:32:40,084 And it's a very nice trade off because I can put a few hours in a week. 371 00:32:40,084 --> 00:32:43,524 and now I put a lot more time in my research 372 00:32:43,524 --> 00:32:48,884 and I enjoy the research side of the markets and what I do 373 00:32:48,884 --> 00:32:51,784 but I've only got a few hours a week 374 00:32:51,784 --> 00:32:55,004 and FaceTime with people and that's nice. 375 00:32:56,304 --> 00:33:00,044 It's fascinating because it's a trajectory that's very common 376 00:33:00,044 --> 00:33:04,964 and it's really where the economics required 377 00:33:04,964 --> 00:33:07,964 to understand what is going on come to the forefront 378 00:33:07,964 --> 00:33:09,724 which is sound money. 379 00:33:10,084 --> 00:33:17,964 You're like, oh my God, how on earth have I been through 20 years of your dad teaching 380 00:33:17,964 --> 00:33:20,924 you about business and thinking about money and figuring it all out? 381 00:33:21,064 --> 00:33:26,064 I've said this many times before, I've highly trained in how to make money, but never asked 382 00:33:26,064 --> 00:33:27,124 the question, what is money? 383 00:33:27,944 --> 00:33:29,164 It's like, what the fuck? 384 00:33:29,344 --> 00:33:30,464 How has that happened? 385 00:33:31,064 --> 00:33:35,924 But when you start digging into like, okay, well, sound money is this thing where it operates 386 00:33:35,924 --> 00:33:39,044 completely differently to a central bank. 387 00:33:39,044 --> 00:33:42,364 and gold is the best format of it thus far. 388 00:33:42,464 --> 00:33:43,564 And now we've got this thing called Bitcoin 389 00:33:43,564 --> 00:33:45,284 and all the different characteristics 390 00:33:45,284 --> 00:33:46,524 of what makes a good money, 391 00:33:46,924 --> 00:33:48,264 being portable or whatever. 392 00:33:48,564 --> 00:33:50,404 And then the features of money, 393 00:33:51,164 --> 00:33:53,104 store of value, unit of account, 394 00:33:53,684 --> 00:33:54,444 medium of exchange. 395 00:33:54,584 --> 00:33:56,384 Oh my God, this is so important. 396 00:33:56,564 --> 00:33:58,044 How on earth has this been missing 397 00:33:58,044 --> 00:34:00,444 from my kind of business education? 398 00:34:00,584 --> 00:34:01,304 This is mental. 399 00:34:02,064 --> 00:34:03,244 And the ultimate point being 400 00:34:03,244 --> 00:34:04,504 is it's about time preference. 401 00:34:05,224 --> 00:34:07,604 And it's about being able to bet on the future 402 00:34:07,604 --> 00:34:10,424 with confidence in a way that you weren't before. 403 00:34:11,324 --> 00:34:15,864 And with that, of course, your daily action changes 404 00:34:15,864 --> 00:34:18,804 and the cost of your time alters. 405 00:34:19,324 --> 00:34:20,144 Because here we are now, 406 00:34:20,224 --> 00:34:22,564 you've built this incredible position of expertise. 407 00:34:22,824 --> 00:34:24,024 That's your intellectual capital. 408 00:34:24,244 --> 00:34:26,224 Your financial capital is getting stronger every day 409 00:34:26,224 --> 00:34:28,024 because of how the expertise is deployed. 410 00:34:28,684 --> 00:34:29,744 And it's like, well, hang on. 411 00:34:29,844 --> 00:34:31,364 I know that in the background, 412 00:34:31,584 --> 00:34:33,264 Bitcoin is just going to keep crunching away 413 00:34:33,264 --> 00:34:34,164 and purchasing power. 414 00:34:34,164 --> 00:34:40,424 so why am I spending six hours a day on a video call selling my time when actually the time I've 415 00:34:40,424 --> 00:34:46,824 already sold is going to get more valuable and so the whole thing shifts essentially so actually I 416 00:34:46,824 --> 00:34:51,524 want to just be a dad or I'm going to go mountain biking or I'm going to I'm going to enjoy my life 417 00:34:51,524 --> 00:34:58,964 and it's like oh my god imagine the difference this makes at scale to human action like it's 418 00:34:58,964 --> 00:35:06,924 going to be so different in the not too far future. And I'll caveat this with, you could run a fund 419 00:35:06,924 --> 00:35:11,964 right now. You could be like, hey, Caleb, yeah, I'm a hedge fund manager. And this is my business. 420 00:35:11,964 --> 00:35:17,844 And I want, you know, minimum ticket of 250 grand, I'm aiming for 35% a year, you know, boom, 421 00:35:17,964 --> 00:35:22,484 off we go. I'm regulated, I'm insured, these are my, you know, main investors, blah, blah, blah. 422 00:35:23,004 --> 00:35:28,144 And the ego is like, hell, yeah, I'm gonna be a hedge fund manager, right? It's just it's right 423 00:35:28,144 --> 00:35:36,184 there you could take it but at what cost and the cost is a different calculation with sound money 424 00:35:36,184 --> 00:35:41,904 behind you it is so and take it from there Caleb like some of that resonates surely 425 00:35:41,904 --> 00:35:47,064 yeah so it's crazy and and it's as long as I've been a bit corner I feel like 426 00:35:47,064 --> 00:35:51,244 you can never get to the bottom of the Bitcoin rabbit hole like it just no endless 427 00:35:51,244 --> 00:35:59,624 but you know what just really really really clicked for me within the last month is we 428 00:35:59,624 --> 00:36:07,484 we live in a debt-based society like globally really i mean it hits us in the states it hits 429 00:36:07,484 --> 00:36:17,124 everywhere yeah it's everywhere and so like the states is now 30 or 38 trillion dollars in debt 430 00:36:17,124 --> 00:36:25,444 right? There is no. And apolitical, I really do stay apolitical because it doesn't matter who's 431 00:36:25,444 --> 00:36:31,264 in office anywhere, right? One of the things that you should talk about is, oh, we're going to cut 432 00:36:31,264 --> 00:36:38,884 deficits or we're going to get into a spending deficit and we're going to start paying off the 433 00:36:38,884 --> 00:36:45,984 debt, yada, yada, yada. But what really just resonated with me is they can't do that because 434 00:36:45,984 --> 00:36:56,704 in a debt-based society, every infrastructure that we have crumbles. It crumbles. So I don't 435 00:36:56,704 --> 00:37:01,824 know if you paid it. I started really digging into it. And did you know that the United States 436 00:37:01,824 --> 00:37:09,124 government ran at a surplus in September, which is very, very, very rare. But what that means 437 00:37:09,124 --> 00:37:17,224 is that the United States government is the biggest depositor of liquidity into the United 438 00:37:17,224 --> 00:37:23,864 States economy by spending. Not only that, we had a government shutdown in October, 439 00:37:23,864 --> 00:37:30,404 which led the Treasury General's account being frozen. And that shutdown lasted throughout 440 00:37:30,404 --> 00:37:38,744 October and into November. So what we saw were two months, two months of basically the liquidity 441 00:37:38,744 --> 00:37:48,624 being shut off. And it coincides right with Bitcoin going from $125 to $80. And so I really 442 00:37:48,624 --> 00:37:56,704 believe when it just kind of started to click that we are too far gone, like the debt can't be stopped 443 00:37:56,704 --> 00:38:05,344 because if it stops, everything implodes, right? It's too far gone, in my opinion. And so 444 00:38:05,344 --> 00:38:14,004 without huge, huge, huge intervention, right? And I know as a Bitcoiner, I think Bitcoin could be 445 00:38:14,004 --> 00:38:20,144 part of that intervention and a large driver, but that's another topic. So for me, learning that 446 00:38:20,144 --> 00:38:30,224 and says every fiat currency eventually and always has just imploded, right? Some of it takes decades, 447 00:38:30,224 --> 00:38:36,764 Sometimes it takes hundreds of years for a currency to run its full course, but they always tend to be inflated to death. 448 00:38:36,764 --> 00:38:51,584 And for the first time in the history of the world, and thankful that we live in the age of the Internet where this is possible to exist, we have a money that is hard. 449 00:38:52,004 --> 00:38:59,004 Hard capped, can't be inflated beyond its 21 million hard cap. 450 00:38:59,004 --> 00:39:08,244 And the reality is it's actually a lot less than that likely if you really factor in lost coins from the early days and things like that. 451 00:39:08,324 --> 00:39:11,984 Right. So we have we have a hard money for the first time. 452 00:39:12,644 --> 00:39:24,384 So if you believe that fiat currencies are are always inflating and and inflating into oblivion until they're gone and the next one spins up and we reset and we do this. 453 00:39:24,384 --> 00:39:33,424 it makes sense why would you really like you can just store in bitcoin and allow that inflation to 454 00:39:33,424 --> 00:39:39,544 at least work for you right because if you've held your money in bitcoin over the last five years 455 00:39:39,544 --> 00:39:47,064 seven years ten years your purchasing power just keeps going up and so like i knew that but then 456 00:39:47,064 --> 00:39:51,004 when i started like i knew the bitcoin side of it but when i started to dig into the other side 457 00:39:51,004 --> 00:39:59,784 It was like, oh, these governments have to have debt, like debt and liquidity are the grease that keep the wheels moving at this point. 458 00:40:00,364 --> 00:40:02,824 And so that was a big revelation for me. 459 00:40:02,944 --> 00:40:04,004 And that's why it's just like. 460 00:40:04,824 --> 00:40:10,764 And this is like to like copy paste this on the back of the conversation we were having 10, 15 minutes ago. 461 00:40:11,264 --> 00:40:16,684 It's like if we could just get that and maybe Bitcoin isn't meant to be a cash flow generator, right? 462 00:40:17,204 --> 00:40:19,124 Maybe that's not where it goes. 463 00:40:19,124 --> 00:40:25,484 But it's like, if I could just generate cashflow there, then it's, it's the perfect thing. 464 00:40:25,904 --> 00:40:29,484 And I don't want that done in a reckless or weird way. 465 00:40:29,564 --> 00:40:38,104 So I don't know what the solution is there or if there is one, but, uh, if, if that's 466 00:40:38,104 --> 00:40:41,704 resolved, it's truly the perfect invention. 467 00:40:41,704 --> 00:40:48,884 I mean, it's already the best invention and because mentally it's hard to sell, like the 468 00:40:48,884 --> 00:40:55,104 think about, oh, I'll just sell off small slices of Bitcoin to live. Maybe, maybe eventually you 469 00:40:55,104 --> 00:40:58,384 get there. But for me mentally, I'm like, oh, I can't sell my Bitcoin. Like this is going to be 470 00:40:58,384 --> 00:41:02,344 worth more in two years, four years, six years, eight years. So I need cashflow. Right. So like 471 00:41:02,344 --> 00:41:10,584 to put that full circle, it's just like, everything is endlessly being debased. We finally, we live in 472 00:41:10,584 --> 00:41:17,504 the time in humanity where we have a life raft and that's a beautiful thing. So that just clicked 473 00:41:17,504 --> 00:41:25,504 for me and it just says like, I don't have, like I can opt out. I can opt out of needing to put 60, 474 00:41:25,584 --> 00:41:34,304 80 hours in because I can make my own way and saving money that's going to increase in purchasing 475 00:41:34,304 --> 00:41:41,484 power. And so I don't have to sacrifice my twenties, thirties, forties to have enough 476 00:41:41,484 --> 00:41:49,884 purchasing power in my 50s and 60s. I just save humbly in Bitcoin and I can live for the now and 477 00:41:49,884 --> 00:41:53,644 the future because Bitcoin's doing the heavy lifting of the future. I don't have to put in 80 478 00:41:53,644 --> 00:41:59,664 hours. I don't have to put in all these crazy things that people do these days. So to me, 479 00:41:59,664 --> 00:42:04,224 it's just a beautiful time to be alive and a beautiful invention to be thriving in the midst 480 00:42:04,224 --> 00:42:11,104 of. Yeah, we're extraordinarily lucky to have pieced together the pieces required to see value 481 00:42:11,104 --> 00:42:17,064 where others don't and it's still the case in my mind that we're just we're so much earlier than 482 00:42:17,064 --> 00:42:25,044 what we realize yeah um most most people have no idea what holding a majority of your net wealth in 483 00:42:25,044 --> 00:42:30,264 a multi-sig with geographically dispersed keys and purchasing power just pumping away in the 484 00:42:30,264 --> 00:42:37,304 background after a large reallocation no one else that feels like um i'm intrigued caleb so got maybe 485 00:42:37,304 --> 00:42:42,204 15 minutes or so left, there's two areas I want to get into and I'll save the second 486 00:42:42,204 --> 00:42:46,864 for a minute. But in terms of your options strategy, so you mentioned you want a probability 487 00:42:46,864 --> 00:42:52,884 of 75 to 85%, roughly, I think it was what you said. So you're looking at forward pricing 488 00:42:52,884 --> 00:42:55,904 for what duration in advance? 489 00:42:56,584 --> 00:42:57,544 We should do weekly. 490 00:42:58,244 --> 00:43:03,964 Okay. Perfect. Okay. And so when you look at the curve for these prices over the next 491 00:43:03,964 --> 00:43:05,764 six to 12 months. 492 00:43:05,764 --> 00:43:09,784 I think the backdrop of what you just highlighted is really fascinating in terms of price action 493 00:43:09,784 --> 00:43:10,784 this year. 494 00:43:10,784 --> 00:43:16,064 So first of all, the four-year cycle is under very, very, very serious stress right now 495 00:43:16,064 --> 00:43:29,186 slash broken given the year figure 1st of Jan 2026 was down It like ah okay well that annual period on our calendar wasn green That broken the four cycle Perhaps that true 496 00:43:30,606 --> 00:43:37,106 But the biggest buyer in the market, in the US specifically, was the government. 497 00:43:37,686 --> 00:43:40,926 And for whatever reason, they went on holiday for a bit. 498 00:43:41,326 --> 00:43:43,886 And equally, they ran a surplus for a month. 499 00:43:44,026 --> 00:43:48,506 And it's like, okay, well, that's massive volume that just wasn't there. 500 00:43:48,506 --> 00:43:51,006 and the price did pull back, absolutely. 501 00:43:51,726 --> 00:43:54,926 But when that machine kicks back into life, 502 00:43:55,086 --> 00:43:56,826 no one's stopping it, as you say. 503 00:43:57,546 --> 00:43:59,246 And so what are we looking at then 504 00:43:59,246 --> 00:44:00,746 over the next six to 12 months 505 00:44:00,746 --> 00:44:02,906 from a kind of price action perspective, you think? 506 00:44:03,106 --> 00:44:06,666 And how are you pricing your options over that time? 507 00:44:07,626 --> 00:44:08,406 Yeah, I love it. 508 00:44:08,406 --> 00:44:10,746 And I'll give you my answers 509 00:44:10,746 --> 00:44:16,886 because I'm a hobbyist macro economy enthusiast. 510 00:44:16,886 --> 00:44:42,286 I give you my two cents on that. I think that what Bitcoin did in a quantitative tightening environment, in a high rate environment, is very impressive. And so the four year cycle had us in the mindset that, and I'll be the first to raise my hand and say I was following the four year cycles, right? Like you just kind of follow it. 511 00:44:42,286 --> 00:45:07,866 But the four-year cycle had us in the mindset that 2025 would be a moon year and that things would be up and up. And so when you really peel back the macroeconomics of it is really coincided with large times of printing, right? Large times of money printing and just when the economy is doing some funny things. 512 00:45:07,866 --> 00:45:14,066 So what we've already seen, early December quantitative tightening came to an end. 513 00:45:14,186 --> 00:45:17,326 The Federal Reserve is not shrinking its balance sheet anymore. 514 00:45:17,626 --> 00:45:19,986 And that by default is bullish. 515 00:45:20,926 --> 00:45:30,586 And then we are already seeing not direct quantitative easing, but some pseudo quantitative easing going on in the markets. 516 00:45:30,706 --> 00:45:35,426 So the Fed's already starting to increase things. 517 00:45:35,426 --> 00:45:42,306 we saw all the liquidity got pumped in the market 2020. They started draining that liquidity out of 518 00:45:42,306 --> 00:45:47,386 reverse repo markets in 2022. So we've been in a three-year drain of just getting the liquidity, 519 00:45:47,646 --> 00:45:54,206 the excess liquidity out. And so the way Bitcoin held in those environments, well, now we're going 520 00:45:54,206 --> 00:46:02,846 into QE. We're going into, at least as far as the states go, there's already been announced a 521 00:46:02,846 --> 00:46:07,706 stimulus and it's a midterm election year, they're going to send people money. And that's 522 00:46:07,706 --> 00:46:13,726 pumping liquidity in the most direct way possible is just getting liquidity in the hands of citizens 523 00:46:13,726 --> 00:46:17,686 and it goes down. Now, I'm not saying I agree with it, but I'm just saying that it is what it is and 524 00:46:17,686 --> 00:46:23,566 that's what's going on. So we have QE beginning in 2026. Fed's going to be expanding its balance 525 00:46:23,566 --> 00:46:31,666 sheet. They're getting money into the hands of the people, right? And then through stimulus and 526 00:46:31,666 --> 00:46:38,926 things like that. And then you have lowering rates. We lowered rates three times in Q4. 527 00:46:39,926 --> 00:46:48,566 Now they're talking like we may pause lowering rates for a bit, but regardless, 2026 will see 528 00:46:48,566 --> 00:46:54,926 lower rates. So when we decrease the cost of capital, the appetite tomorrow and increase 529 00:46:54,926 --> 00:47:02,126 liquidity into offensive investments and assets, the appetite grows. So I really think what we have 530 00:47:02,126 --> 00:47:09,586 coming is just liquidity and injection beyond what we'll realize. And this could age horribly, 531 00:47:09,586 --> 00:47:15,946 and I'll raise my hand if it does. But what I see coming is just quantitative easing, 532 00:47:16,206 --> 00:47:22,506 lower rate environments, stimulus injections, and all of these things that are just going to 533 00:47:22,506 --> 00:47:28,726 pump liquidity back into the market that got drained of liquidity. And so I think Bitcoin is 534 00:47:28,726 --> 00:47:37,006 the barometer. I think it feels those things in the most raw and real way, right? It's the smoke 535 00:47:37,006 --> 00:47:43,146 alarm when things are bad, but it's going to be the fastest horse when things are good, right? 536 00:47:43,146 --> 00:47:47,586 So I'm not for throwing price predictions out there because I don't know how crazy it could get 537 00:47:47,586 --> 00:47:48,986 or how mild it can be. 538 00:47:49,906 --> 00:47:55,866 But I think there is a huge, huge influx of liquidity coming into the system. 539 00:47:56,186 --> 00:47:58,106 And I think it'll start slow. 540 00:47:58,466 --> 00:48:05,066 I think it'll pick up because it is an election year in the States and they're going to manipulate 541 00:48:05,066 --> 00:48:10,546 the feel-good feeling to come right around the time where people start to wonder who 542 00:48:10,546 --> 00:48:14,746 they're going to cast their vote for and what party and things like that. 543 00:48:14,746 --> 00:48:24,626 And so all of that being said, that circles back into where we continue to have an approach with our options and our options selling. 544 00:48:25,526 --> 00:48:34,366 We always default to because the worst thing that can happen with my strategy is you own shares of something, right? 545 00:48:34,626 --> 00:48:37,946 And the shares of that something in dollar prices can drop. 546 00:48:37,946 --> 00:48:45,846 So if you buy something at $100 and it drops to $50, well, then that's pretty painful because your base capital you invested and just got cut in half. 547 00:48:46,446 --> 00:48:50,646 So the biggest thing you can do is avoid that, right? 548 00:48:50,706 --> 00:48:52,326 That's what we don't want to do. 549 00:48:52,646 --> 00:49:07,926 So that's why strategic selection of positions is so important is because selecting positions that are going, that are poised to go up in value is a really good thing. 550 00:49:07,946 --> 00:49:29,886 So for us in the 2026, we continue to look for pockets of value because I bid as a large portion of my strategy, but I will still sell options on traditional positions, equities in the market if the yield is there that I like and the risk reward is there. 551 00:49:29,886 --> 00:49:38,726 So for me, the risk reward assessment is, can I take a position at a price that I think is near its price for? 552 00:49:38,826 --> 00:49:41,146 And that's based on fundamental value investing. 553 00:49:41,526 --> 00:49:46,786 Like before the Bitcoin days, I was a Warren Buffett, Benjamin Graham value guy. 554 00:49:47,686 --> 00:49:55,786 So I always want to, you know, if I'm going to buy something, it has to be cheap or undervalued or at least fairly valued. 555 00:49:56,746 --> 00:50:03,206 So it's hard for me to go touch these stocks that are overvalued and overcooked and the AI names and things like that. 556 00:50:03,866 --> 00:50:10,106 So for us, it comes back to where can we generate this yield that isn't going to have a 20, 30, 40, 50% drop. 557 00:50:10,826 --> 00:50:15,426 And then when we generate that yield, we flow it into Bitcoin. 558 00:50:15,426 --> 00:50:22,166 So I'm very bullish on 2026 simply because of the macro backdrop. 559 00:50:22,166 --> 00:50:31,826 And I think the macro backdrop is going to push a lot of assets up and, you know, be it this arbitrary turn of the calendar. 560 00:50:33,146 --> 00:50:37,466 And but Bitcoin is already starting to come back to life a little bit today. 561 00:50:37,866 --> 00:50:39,566 It's starting to wake up. 562 00:50:40,626 --> 00:50:45,606 Bitcoin related assets are starting to wake up because they've endured some pain. 563 00:50:45,606 --> 00:50:52,486 I mean, if you look at the Bitcoin related positions, they have endured some pain. 564 00:50:53,526 --> 00:50:55,386 So when they go, they can go quick. 565 00:50:55,706 --> 00:50:57,566 So we're kind of positioning for that. 566 00:50:57,706 --> 00:51:01,506 We believe that that is what's on the horizon in 2026. 567 00:51:03,386 --> 00:51:07,126 That's kind of what we're preparing for and our outlook on things. 568 00:51:07,706 --> 00:51:10,806 You know, if my macro is wrong, I'll have you edit this out. 569 00:51:13,686 --> 00:51:15,146 That's the bit we have to keep in. 570 00:51:15,146 --> 00:51:21,486 The truth is, anyone out there that gives you a price and a date, they're wrong. 571 00:51:22,006 --> 00:51:23,366 Because no one fucking knows. 572 00:51:23,766 --> 00:51:24,186 They don't. 573 00:51:24,866 --> 00:51:32,026 The key is being in a position where you can be okay either way. 574 00:51:33,206 --> 00:51:39,426 And that's not so easy to achieve in some ways, but it needs to be part of your decision-making process before you even get there. 575 00:51:40,486 --> 00:51:44,866 Okay, Caleb, as much as I am loving learning about the specifics of all of this, 576 00:51:44,866 --> 00:51:46,306 there's one area that I want to touch on. 577 00:51:46,366 --> 00:51:48,346 We've got another five minutes or so before I close it up. 578 00:51:48,866 --> 00:51:52,086 And that is fatherhood, which for you is just around the corner. 579 00:51:54,026 --> 00:51:55,886 You know, having children is the ultimate investment. 580 00:51:56,206 --> 00:51:58,146 And I would describe it as humanistic capital. 581 00:51:58,526 --> 00:52:03,506 You know, I look at three key areas, intellectual, humanistic, and financial. 582 00:52:03,866 --> 00:52:05,446 And they're all different forms of capital. 583 00:52:05,846 --> 00:52:09,266 And, you know, you'll meet people who have done extraordinarily well 584 00:52:09,266 --> 00:52:12,346 at financial capital, but they've been divorced a number of times 585 00:52:12,346 --> 00:52:13,526 and their kids hate them. 586 00:52:13,526 --> 00:52:17,326 So, well, that's clearly not the right balance to try and hit. 587 00:52:18,666 --> 00:52:27,886 And equal insight that I really love is that without humanistic and intellectual capital together, you'll never drive financial gains over generations. 588 00:52:28,326 --> 00:52:32,286 So without having kids, then what's the point of the work you're doing today in terms of keeping it? 589 00:52:33,446 --> 00:52:35,766 So, you know, nervous, pumped. 590 00:52:36,406 --> 00:52:39,246 What was the reason to step into parenthood? 591 00:52:39,566 --> 00:52:42,166 Yeah, I would say all of the above. 592 00:52:42,166 --> 00:52:50,186 nervous pumped um yeah it's just i don't know it's and part of it is um 593 00:52:50,186 --> 00:53:00,326 life is designed by default to keep us busy and stimulated and numb almost to living a real full 594 00:53:00,326 --> 00:53:06,086 life and so bitcoin to help help me slow down and i hate to keep going back to bitcoin but the 595 00:53:06,086 --> 00:53:14,646 no no no dude it's the low it's the key part and so the low time preference um you know i'm 33. 596 00:53:15,206 --> 00:53:21,206 i'm not old yet but i'm not in my you know i'm not having i'm not 20 anymore i'm not 22. 597 00:53:21,926 --> 00:53:29,606 so my wife is younger than i and so we finally just felt the time was right it's time to slow 598 00:53:29,606 --> 00:53:38,886 down. We have the infrastructure to be present with our kids in a full totality, you know, 24-7. 599 00:53:39,126 --> 00:53:49,366 So the time was right. And so we're excited. And just, you know, we live in the country. 600 00:53:49,366 --> 00:53:52,646 You know, I'm not near a city. I'm in the middle of nowhere. 601 00:53:52,646 --> 00:54:02,606 I have land, you know, we're, we're excited to raise them in slow motion, so to speak, you know, 602 00:54:02,686 --> 00:54:10,786 in a, in a place that is still like stepping back into the 1990s or something, you know, it's, 603 00:54:10,866 --> 00:54:16,826 it's slow. It's the, you know, it's just a, and we're very excited about that. So I, 604 00:54:16,826 --> 00:54:23,986 I have no idea what to expect. I do not come from a large family. My wife comes from a very large 605 00:54:23,986 --> 00:54:31,866 family. So I'm going to, you know, it's, we, we're excited to, to learn. We don't know what 606 00:54:31,866 --> 00:54:39,646 we're having. We're, we're two months out or less than two months now. And we felt it was super low 607 00:54:39,646 --> 00:54:45,646 time preference to just not find out. Like, let's have that joy in the moment. Because one of our 608 00:54:45,646 --> 00:54:52,246 things myself and my wife that we're constantly on is is it seems like people can't wait on things 609 00:54:52,246 --> 00:54:58,966 anymore there's no waiting there's no delayed gratitude there's no it's it's a now culture 610 00:54:58,966 --> 00:55:06,066 thanks to internet and things like this and so we decided let's wait let's find out in the moment 611 00:55:06,066 --> 00:55:13,886 when it's here with us so very very nervous but very excited yeah it's cool 612 00:55:13,886 --> 00:55:21,966 if you're if you had to guess now boy or girl i've said girl all along i've always said girl 613 00:55:21,966 --> 00:55:30,586 but my wife says boy so it's hard to go to some others i mean if if this is anecdotal but in my 614 00:55:30,586 --> 00:55:35,826 experience my wife and i got it wrong every time i thought the first one was a boy and it was a girl 615 00:55:35,826 --> 00:55:39,786 i thought the second one was a boy it was a girl and the third one was like well i'm just gonna be 616 00:55:39,786 --> 00:55:46,126 that guy that has three girls and it was a boy so we were wrong every single time um and how's the 617 00:55:46,126 --> 00:55:51,726 moment where like you start having to buy stuff to like clothes arrive or like there's like a pram 618 00:55:51,726 --> 00:55:56,546 or stroller as you'd call it you have to build the cot you're like oh my god look there's like a 619 00:55:56,546 --> 00:56:03,046 little room like what the hell yeah it's crazy right we just had um like the shower the baby 620 00:56:03,046 --> 00:56:11,986 shower sure and so we are overwhelmed with stuff that was saturday so it's today's it's tuesday at 621 00:56:11,986 --> 00:56:20,366 my time right now um and so i just have like every corner of my house just has boxes and stuff right 622 00:56:20,366 --> 00:56:25,446 now you know we're trying to distill like what do we get on a symbol right now what do we like 623 00:56:25,446 --> 00:56:30,686 like a stroller um maybe we wait on that maybe we wait on we're just trying to figure it out man 624 00:56:30,686 --> 00:56:37,626 we're we're uh excited and trying to learn and we're just trying to be responsible people that 625 00:56:37,626 --> 00:56:45,526 they raise our our our first child with strong morals um and what we believe and and just 626 00:56:45,526 --> 00:56:52,106 trying to raise them the right way right and what is that that's what we're trying to do 627 00:56:52,106 --> 00:56:59,206 well it's the ultimate process of kind of learn by doing so yeah awesome caleb what an amazing uh 628 00:56:59,206 --> 00:57:03,046 hour we spent talking. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for teaching us what you have and 629 00:57:03,046 --> 00:57:08,246 wishing you the very, very best of luck as you move into the next phase of your life. And what 630 00:57:08,246 --> 00:57:13,506 a great bit of progress so far. Thank you. Thank you, Jake, for the time. Thank you for putting 631 00:57:13,506 --> 00:57:18,766 this all together. And yeah, I enjoyed it a ton, man. Appreciate you. Final question is, 632 00:57:18,766 --> 00:57:22,106 if anyone wants to reach out and get in touch, what's the best way to do that? 633 00:57:22,106 --> 00:57:30,666 yeah it's a great question you can always find me on Noster I am not Noster exclusive yet but 634 00:57:30,666 --> 00:57:39,846 that's where I like to be I'm Caleb Gregory 304 on there but I'm at the same handle on X which I 635 00:57:39,846 --> 00:57:45,766 don't really use but you know I'll pop in once a week so that's where I'm at that's where I post 636 00:57:45,766 --> 00:57:48,246 my thoughts and appreciate it, man. 637 00:57:48,806 --> 00:57:49,086 Awesome. 638 00:57:49,286 --> 00:57:49,806 Thank you, Kevin.