1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,340 Josh, welcome to the podcast. 2 00:00:05,340 --> 00:00:06,860 Hi, thanks for having me. 3 00:00:07,140 --> 00:00:07,860 No, it's my pleasure. 4 00:00:08,300 --> 00:00:11,640 So this episode is going to take a slightly different format to usual. 5 00:00:12,060 --> 00:00:14,480 For those of you that tune in from time to time, 6 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:17,900 Josh and I have, we're 30 minutes late starting 7 00:00:17,900 --> 00:00:19,960 and I have a hard cutoff in 30 minutes time. 8 00:00:20,080 --> 00:00:23,220 So I don't know if that's going to change the conversation per se 9 00:00:23,220 --> 00:00:24,780 because I do slightly like the longer stuff, 10 00:00:24,860 --> 00:00:27,000 but I'll try and just get as much out of you 11 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:28,880 in kind of 20, 25 minutes as we can. 12 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:53,480 My first question remains the same, Josh. For whatever reason, you were mining Bitcoin 2010, and you then stopped doing that and maybe forgot about it or whatever. And relatively recently, we're able to recover some Bitcoin that had been stored somehow. And like, it's changed your life. Holy shit. 13 00:00:53,480 --> 00:00:56,640 I'd love to hear, like, tell me that story. 14 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,500 And, like, you know, this is crazy, right? 15 00:01:01,100 --> 00:01:01,620 Yeah. 16 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,860 It took me a long time to process it myself, personally. 17 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,680 The arc of it is very long. 18 00:01:10,900 --> 00:01:14,740 So I basically started as a computer nerd. 19 00:01:15,380 --> 00:01:19,800 And I'm learning about Linux because I'm a web developer. 20 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:25,320 and then as now the majority of websites are deployed on Linux 21 00:01:25,320 --> 00:01:27,920 and I couldn't rightly claim to be a web developer. 22 00:01:28,060 --> 00:01:29,560 I'm in my early 20s at this point. 23 00:01:30,580 --> 00:01:34,240 And I wanted to be able to say I'm a web developer 24 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,680 and most websites are deployed on Linux. 25 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,480 So I put my nose to the grindstone and said, 26 00:01:39,740 --> 00:01:41,280 okay, I'll learn this thing. 27 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,580 And very quickly ran out of things to do on Linux 28 00:01:45,580 --> 00:01:47,080 because there's not much to do on Linux. 29 00:01:47,500 --> 00:01:49,100 So I did a Google search. 30 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,260 That was literally, quote, what do I do with my Linux? 31 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:55,120 Very sophisticated search. 32 00:01:56,100 --> 00:02:05,020 And because Pizza Day had just happened, Laszlo had bought two pizzas for 10,000 Bitcoin. 33 00:02:05,220 --> 00:02:09,440 A lot of people don't know that he kept buying pizzas throughout the course of that summer. 34 00:02:10,540 --> 00:02:15,840 And I think he spent 70,000 Bitcoin in about three months strictly on pizzas. 35 00:02:16,300 --> 00:02:18,800 So it saturated the news results. 36 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:20,860 It's saturated search results. 37 00:02:21,580 --> 00:02:25,280 And so when I search an unrelated thing, what do I do with my Linux? 38 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,340 One of the first results that comes up is, well, you could put Bitcoin on your Linux. 39 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:38,440 So I, being a sort of curious technology nerdy type, thought, okay, this is kind of neat. 40 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:39,220 I'll do this. 41 00:02:39,580 --> 00:02:46,120 And very quickly messed with it, did a couple things with it. 42 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:51,260 And then almost as soon as I got into it, I got out of it. 43 00:02:51,620 --> 00:02:55,340 So I'm a bit of a pack rat. 44 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,100 I disassembled a computer. 45 00:02:58,620 --> 00:03:00,200 I take the hard drive out. 46 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:06,020 I put it in a box filled with all the other hard drives from all the other computers that I had disassembled. 47 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:13,580 And then it sat in my shed for approximately 13 years. 48 00:03:13,580 --> 00:03:17,120 until, and I completely forgot about it. 49 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,180 It was not on my radar at all. 50 00:03:19,820 --> 00:03:24,560 And I'm a bit of a newsie, so I would hear about Bitcoin. 51 00:03:24,940 --> 00:03:27,260 I remember hearing about the block size wars. 52 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,560 I remember hearing about Michael Saylor and these dips 53 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,820 and all this stuff going on. 54 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:34,840 It would bubble up in the news, 55 00:03:35,100 --> 00:03:37,880 but I never identified as a Bitcoiner. 56 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:40,400 So I didn't think this is me. 57 00:03:40,740 --> 00:03:41,740 This is happening to me. 58 00:03:41,740 --> 00:03:51,060 So it just it was off my radar. And then and then in late and late 23, I. 59 00:03:54,920 --> 00:04:06,440 Basically, my whole life falls apart. My mother is really sick and she because of the nature of her illness, there was no one to take care of her. 60 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:11,580 She lived in a remote location, so I had to move out to take care of her. 61 00:04:13,380 --> 00:04:20,160 And I chose to do that to make the right choice, I felt, and paid a price for that. 62 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:21,900 I lose my jobs. 63 00:04:22,460 --> 00:04:23,560 Girlfriend leaves me. 64 00:04:24,500 --> 00:04:27,480 Basically, everything goes to hell in a handbasket. 65 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:34,220 Also, my grandpa, he passes, sadly. 66 00:04:34,220 --> 00:04:40,380 and the silver lining is that he gives me a little bit of money in an estate 67 00:04:40,380 --> 00:04:45,700 and it was enough money that I needed to figure out what to do with it. 68 00:04:45,900 --> 00:04:47,740 So I did due diligence. 69 00:04:47,900 --> 00:04:49,000 I said, you know, what do I do? 70 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:49,960 Do I get gold? 71 00:04:50,460 --> 00:04:51,680 Do I get bonds? 72 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:52,720 Do I get stocks? 73 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:54,500 Do I real estate? 74 00:04:55,340 --> 00:04:56,160 What do I do? 75 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:01,120 And I sat on it for a little while there thinking about that 76 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:06,720 And then still being a nerdly type, I think, well, maybe I get some Bitcoin. 77 00:05:07,620 --> 00:05:10,940 And then almost as soon as I have that thought, I remember. 78 00:05:11,340 --> 00:05:15,840 I'm like, wow, okay, I think I did this all once a long time ago. 79 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:21,580 And then I'm thinking, because I'm in a bad way at this point, I'm thinking, there's no way. 80 00:05:22,100 --> 00:05:25,580 You know, even if I find it, it's going to be corrupted. 81 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:28,640 You know, if there's a drive out there, it'll be broken. 82 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:36,560 you know there's just no way this is not my life i'm not that lucky you know but but i remembered 83 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:43,020 enough that i was like uh could be it's too much i can't not check right i'll never be able to sleep 84 00:05:43,020 --> 00:05:50,620 again if i don't at least check so i end up in uh go to the garage you know go through the house 85 00:05:50,620 --> 00:05:57,580 end up in the shed find the box with the hard drives start plugging them in and then i find one 86 00:05:57,580 --> 00:06:00,740 that has a matching operating system, 87 00:06:00,740 --> 00:06:14,197 which was Ubuntu and a matching manufacturing date And it worked It booted up And I was like okay this this could be it All right Well I know I serious 88 00:06:14,297 --> 00:06:17,677 And at this point I know I'm, I'm, I'm still, you know, tech guy. 89 00:06:17,757 --> 00:06:20,697 And I just know, I know enough just to be dangerous. 90 00:06:20,817 --> 00:06:21,217 Right. 91 00:06:21,637 --> 00:06:25,417 So if I start trying to mess with this thing and figure it out myself, 92 00:06:25,417 --> 00:06:28,417 there's a good chance I'm just going to lose it all anyway. 93 00:06:28,617 --> 00:06:28,957 Right. 94 00:06:29,017 --> 00:06:32,257 And, and I knew I couldn't just go on Craig's list and then like, 95 00:06:32,497 --> 00:06:36,697 Ask people hey guys come to my house and help me get my bitcoin because that was not 96 00:06:37,657 --> 00:06:39,657 Going to work out so 97 00:06:39,877 --> 00:06:41,877 So I sat on it for about 98 00:06:42,877 --> 00:06:44,877 I don't know seven or eight months 99 00:06:46,717 --> 00:06:52,577 My life is getting sort of progressively worse at all at the same time because my mom is sick and 100 00:06:53,677 --> 00:06:55,677 It was just it was 101 00:06:55,957 --> 00:06:59,877 It was a very interesting time to be me and then 102 00:06:59,877 --> 00:07:18,937 Then in the summer of 24, I basically get a wild hair and decide I'm going to go to the Porcupine Festival in New Hampshire, which is a libertarian festival that had been going on, still goes on for 20 plus years. 103 00:07:18,937 --> 00:07:24,897 They've been there for 30 some years, but the festival itself is like only 20 some years old. 104 00:07:24,897 --> 00:07:31,077 and it was literally the only thing that I did for myself that summer. 105 00:07:32,717 --> 00:07:36,017 And so I knew my time constraints were only going to get worse 106 00:07:36,017 --> 00:07:38,437 because of the nature of her illness. 107 00:07:38,437 --> 00:07:44,557 I had one family member who was able to kind of pick up the reins for this week. 108 00:07:45,197 --> 00:07:48,537 So I was just like, okay, I got to do this for me. 109 00:07:49,577 --> 00:07:53,857 And then I went up there and I wasn't even really thinking about Bitcoin, to be honest. 110 00:07:53,857 --> 00:07:58,957 I was just like, the Porcupine Festival is a libertarian festival. 111 00:07:59,137 --> 00:08:00,237 Ron Paul was speaking. 112 00:08:00,877 --> 00:08:02,457 These were kind of my people. 113 00:08:02,777 --> 00:08:06,217 I was thinking I would make friends, make enemies, whatever. 114 00:08:06,537 --> 00:08:07,577 It would be a good time. 115 00:08:08,017 --> 00:08:12,597 And it was, and I'd highly recommend freedom-oriented, freedom-minded people. 116 00:08:12,877 --> 00:08:16,537 You can make it to the Porcupine Festival in New Hampshire. 117 00:08:16,697 --> 00:08:17,197 It's annual. 118 00:08:18,257 --> 00:08:19,197 It's a lot of fun. 119 00:08:19,477 --> 00:08:20,237 It really is. 120 00:08:20,237 --> 00:08:36,737 But at any rate, I'm at the festival and I meet a guy there, Joshua Groth, who is starting a company that does self-custody consulting. 121 00:08:37,437 --> 00:08:39,897 And he is hosting a workshop. 122 00:08:40,317 --> 00:08:43,957 And the workshop is about self-custody, Bitcoin self-custody. 123 00:08:44,377 --> 00:08:49,617 And his bio is essentially, he's an adventure guy. 124 00:08:49,617 --> 00:08:51,177 He does base jumping. 125 00:08:51,597 --> 00:08:52,897 He's skydiving. 126 00:08:53,417 --> 00:08:57,937 He's jumping off of buildings and paragliding and just doing all this wild stuff. 127 00:08:58,657 --> 00:08:59,577 And then he's talking about Bitcoin. 128 00:08:59,837 --> 00:09:01,557 And I'm just like, well, this is a really cool guy. 129 00:09:01,857 --> 00:09:04,137 I wasn't even really thinking about Bitcoin either. 130 00:09:04,337 --> 00:09:07,577 I was like, maybe I want to meet this guy. 131 00:09:07,757 --> 00:09:09,737 So super adventurous. 132 00:09:10,097 --> 00:09:12,177 This is the total opposite of me, right? 133 00:09:12,957 --> 00:09:18,177 And so, yeah, long story short, I go through the workshop. 134 00:09:18,177 --> 00:09:22,177 He makes an offhand remark that he'd help somebody recover some Bitcoin. 135 00:09:23,097 --> 00:09:30,077 And I could tell just by talking to him, he was a man of integrity and he wasn't just going to shoot me and run off to Mexico. 136 00:09:30,937 --> 00:09:37,837 So at the end of the workshop, I went up to him and I said, you know, hey, I could have some. 137 00:09:38,837 --> 00:09:45,197 Could you help me? And he said, sure, if you fly out to Colorado, they would. 138 00:09:45,197 --> 00:09:55,917 And so long story short, cut to about three weeks after that in his basement, we press the button with a team of three other people that he assembled to recover the Bitcoin. 139 00:09:56,237 --> 00:10:03,757 And I go from broke and alone and in poverty to being financially stable for the rest of my life. 140 00:10:04,737 --> 00:10:05,177 Wow. 141 00:10:06,297 --> 00:10:07,777 What a story, Josh. 142 00:10:08,477 --> 00:10:14,737 I'm so upset that we've started halfway through the time that I set aside for this. 143 00:10:15,197 --> 00:10:17,537 No, it's totally, it happens, mate. 144 00:10:17,577 --> 00:10:19,197 I've learned with this podcasting stuff 145 00:10:19,197 --> 00:10:21,237 that getting stressed about that 146 00:10:21,237 --> 00:10:23,137 is just totally not worth it. 147 00:10:23,957 --> 00:10:25,317 The story here, though, 148 00:10:26,177 --> 00:10:29,017 I don't want to gloss past the difficulty of illness 149 00:10:29,017 --> 00:10:30,137 with family members. 150 00:10:30,817 --> 00:10:31,957 And thank you for sharing that. 151 00:10:32,217 --> 00:10:33,317 It's really hard. 152 00:10:33,997 --> 00:10:36,577 But what immediately resonated about your story 153 00:10:36,577 --> 00:10:41,957 for me personally is one of the main lenses 154 00:10:41,957 --> 00:10:44,357 on Bitcoin that I have is inheritance. 155 00:10:45,197 --> 00:10:49,537 And my father died when I was young and he was actually pretty young himself. 156 00:10:49,977 --> 00:10:52,077 And I got money in my 20s. 157 00:10:52,157 --> 00:10:53,537 And it's like, what do you do with it? 158 00:10:54,037 --> 00:10:58,297 And basically, I've spent the last 10, 15 years figuring that out. 159 00:10:58,817 --> 00:11:01,357 I tried different asset classes. 160 00:11:01,357 --> 00:11:03,437 I tried different investment philosophies. 161 00:11:03,977 --> 00:11:05,837 I just didn't know anything. 162 00:11:06,177 --> 00:11:09,557 And it's only through making mistakes that you slowly but surely figure things out. 163 00:11:09,557 --> 00:11:17,217 anyway i do agree with you that i think bitcoin is a key part of any future wealth strategy for 164 00:11:17,217 --> 00:11:22,477 anyone um but it's it's through asking that question what the hell what the hell am i going 165 00:11:22,477 --> 00:11:26,177 to do with this money like obviously i want to keep it but i also want to grow it i don't someone 166 00:11:26,177 --> 00:11:30,797 else i don't want someone else to have it what if they take it and don't give it back you know and 167 00:11:30,797 --> 00:11:35,617 you realize that that's actually a question of of counterparty risk you know to like jazz up the 168 00:11:35,617 --> 00:11:42,097 term. It's like, what if I give my shit to someone, they don't give it back. So that for me resonates 169 00:11:42,097 --> 00:11:47,917 a lot, because it's one of the key drivers in why I see value in Bitcoin is that fact of like, okay, 170 00:11:48,257 --> 00:11:52,637 well, I'm passing wealth from one generation to the next. And I think Bitcoin is just a much better 171 00:11:52,637 --> 00:11:59,277 way of doing that. Gosh, Josh, okay, we've got, I'm gonna go 10 more minutes, right? So I want to do 172 00:11:59,277 --> 00:12:03,997 if we can, this is a different interview to normal. We'll try and do some like fast questions for that 173 00:12:03,997 --> 00:12:08,637 time, if I may. So, so, so what did it feel like? And this is 174 00:12:08,637 --> 00:12:23,334 not a quick answer What did it feel like the button goes and you like Oh my god there it is Well the first thing it felt like was checking the number constantly That my my were glued to the chart for a good year there 175 00:12:23,754 --> 00:12:24,194 Wow. 176 00:12:24,194 --> 00:12:28,654 You know, just, and then I was lucky in that, uh, the groups that helped me recover the 177 00:12:28,654 --> 00:12:31,234 corn, they also aren't pill chain. 178 00:12:31,874 --> 00:12:37,214 And, uh, and so by the end of it, I didn't think, well, I gotta get rid of this asset 179 00:12:37,214 --> 00:12:39,674 and get some, you know, good old fiat. 180 00:12:39,994 --> 00:12:45,094 I thought I need to get rid of all the fiat that I've got and put it into this asset, which is what I did. 181 00:12:45,874 --> 00:12:48,534 So I'm completely allocated now. 182 00:12:48,534 --> 00:12:54,654 And I live on a Bitcoin standard and advocate running nodes and self-custody. 183 00:12:55,054 --> 00:13:00,134 And I'm fortunate in that I already had a tech background. 184 00:13:00,334 --> 00:13:09,214 But to answer your question more directly, it was very chaotic. 185 00:13:09,994 --> 00:13:22,954 On one hand, I was ecstatic that I had gone from zero to hero with this button press and that it was this freedom money and that this meant so many things for my future. 186 00:13:23,494 --> 00:13:29,814 On the other hand, I was resentful that my whole life had to fall apart before I got there. 187 00:13:29,814 --> 00:13:36,394 and I you know thought you know maybe if I've been smarter or what if you know then my life 188 00:13:36,394 --> 00:13:42,834 maybe couldn't that didn't need to fall apart before all that happened but you know I think 189 00:13:42,834 --> 00:13:49,254 now in retrospect I don't I wouldn't have taken it back but at the time um it was certainly an 190 00:13:49,254 --> 00:13:57,714 emotional roller coaster and so what's fun about listening to this from my I bet I'm fucking 191 00:13:57,714 --> 00:14:01,794 emotional, right? I mean, talk about like, what a crazy story. And that's why I love doing this 192 00:14:01,794 --> 00:14:06,734 podcast. Like people have all these incredible things that happen to them. But to kind of 193 00:14:06,734 --> 00:14:10,894 highlight a few things. So you're already technically focused. That's awesome. You were 194 00:14:10,894 --> 00:14:14,894 then thinking about inheritance and like, what do you do if you had money? And then this third point 195 00:14:14,894 --> 00:14:19,394 of like, oh my God, let's try and recover it. But equally coming at it from a libertarian lens, 196 00:14:20,034 --> 00:14:27,234 I find generally that people need four, five, six quite serious experiences in their life that blend 197 00:14:27,234 --> 00:14:34,334 together to go ah maybe this bitcoin thing is more valuable than i realized because you know 198 00:14:34,334 --> 00:14:39,594 you were you were mining bitcoin at a time when people were buying pizzas with it with 70 000 of 199 00:14:39,594 --> 00:14:45,374 them you know it was just so goddamn early back then no one knew what the hell this thing was and 200 00:14:45,374 --> 00:14:51,894 your your natural attention span you got distracted and went somewhere different and that's a 201 00:14:51,894 --> 00:14:58,654 spiritual journey um and in many ways like unless you're ready things don't open up for you so it's 202 00:14:58,654 --> 00:15:04,034 strange isn't it bad things have to happen for good things to happen too um and so josh can you 203 00:15:04,034 --> 00:15:08,994 tell me like what are some of the major things that change in your day life as a result of the 204 00:15:08,994 --> 00:15:13,854 click of that button and this bitcoin being accessible to you well bitcoin broke my brain 205 00:15:13,854 --> 00:15:20,474 uh and in a good way okay like i once you once you're 99.9 allocated to something 206 00:15:20,474 --> 00:15:22,934 and accidentally or not, 207 00:15:24,334 --> 00:15:28,474 it just totally, you need to like figure out how it works, 208 00:15:28,654 --> 00:15:30,954 why it works, who's in charge of it, 209 00:15:31,114 --> 00:15:32,994 who's, you know, what's going on with this thing. 210 00:15:33,114 --> 00:15:36,174 So I immediately go public, 211 00:15:36,494 --> 00:15:38,834 which is not something I would generally recommend to people, 212 00:15:38,934 --> 00:15:39,474 but I did. 213 00:15:40,494 --> 00:15:45,614 And then I just day in, day out, 10, 12 hours a day, 214 00:15:45,614 --> 00:15:47,054 I think about nothing but Bitcoin, 215 00:15:47,054 --> 00:15:59,654 I'm just pure fugue state trying to, you know, use my tech brain, my programmer brain to just figure out what this thing really is. 216 00:15:59,654 --> 00:16:06,654 And also go back into the historical record because I've been around for a while technically in Bitcoin, but also not. 217 00:16:06,894 --> 00:16:15,894 So I had to kind of figure out what happened, what's been going on in Bitcoin for the last, you know, 17 years now, I guess. 218 00:16:15,894 --> 00:16:19,814 So and then I guess 14 years since I got into it. 219 00:16:19,914 --> 00:16:25,154 But nonetheless, I basically just dedicated myself to Bitcoin. 220 00:16:25,394 --> 00:16:33,274 I pivoted to this industry and I work in and around Bitcoin every day. 221 00:16:33,974 --> 00:16:36,994 Now, I know there's like no company, there's no CEO. 222 00:16:37,934 --> 00:16:38,974 You know, we're all volunteers. 223 00:16:41,254 --> 00:16:45,434 But that said, there's still work to be done. 224 00:16:45,894 --> 00:16:53,154 And so do you now offer any kind of services or products in and around the Bitcoin space for people? 225 00:16:55,154 --> 00:16:58,374 So I'm working on a few things. 226 00:17:00,294 --> 00:17:10,274 The first project that I worked on was a self-hosted privacy respecting Bitcoin treasury management application. 227 00:17:10,274 --> 00:17:18,974 So when I've got the stack and I'm thinking to myself, I need to be able to do basic accounting with this thing. 228 00:17:19,194 --> 00:17:24,174 And I do a sort of survey of available solutions out there. 229 00:17:24,494 --> 00:17:35,574 And what I find is basically everything wants complete transparency into my stack such that, you know, they can see all the moves I'm making, which is not very Bitcoin. 230 00:17:36,374 --> 00:17:45,014 And then there are some options out there which are more sort of open source, but they include chipcoiner. 231 00:17:45,654 --> 00:17:48,414 And, you know, to my mind, that's an attack vector. 232 00:17:48,674 --> 00:17:49,374 That's a no go. 233 00:17:49,734 --> 00:17:52,174 So it's Bitcoin only or bust. 234 00:17:52,174 --> 00:17:56,994 And so I just didn't see any solutions out there that suited my particular preferences. 235 00:17:57,634 --> 00:17:58,654 And then AI showed up. 236 00:17:58,954 --> 00:18:00,394 I've got a long programming background. 237 00:18:00,994 --> 00:18:02,594 I just figured, well, I'll just make it. 238 00:18:03,014 --> 00:18:04,874 So that's what I started doing. 239 00:18:04,874 --> 00:18:14,174 And then as I got into that process, I started thinking about the governance of layer one 240 00:18:14,174 --> 00:18:30,871 and what has and hasn been happening over the course of that time And then sort of fell into doing a governance analysis of Bitcoin Core And that governance analysis led to coming up with an alternative governance model 241 00:18:31,151 --> 00:18:37,431 which I think would be more appropriate for Bitcoin compared to what we have now. 242 00:18:37,431 --> 00:18:44,151 And then also an alternative Bitcoin node that is consensus valid. 243 00:18:44,731 --> 00:18:48,492 So I don't have any particular prescriptions for consensus. 244 00:18:50,772 --> 00:18:54,052 My position is consensus is not mine to mess with. 245 00:18:54,711 --> 00:19:02,131 A lot of people, Bitcoin fixers, they come to the space and they have all these ideas about changing Bitcoin. 246 00:19:02,451 --> 00:19:05,631 And then they end up forking off the network and then it's not Bitcoin anymore. 247 00:19:05,831 --> 00:19:09,211 So it's either consensus valid Bitcoin or it's not Bitcoin. 248 00:19:09,211 --> 00:19:20,752 And so I'm just trying to kind of solve an age-old problem that's been called for at least since 2014, if not earlier. 249 00:19:21,091 --> 00:19:34,292 Gavin Andreessen was Satoshi's handpicked successor, and he was responsible for doing a lot of the refactoring of Satoshi's code. 250 00:19:34,292 --> 00:19:40,552 And in 2014, he called for alternative implementations of Bitcoin. 251 00:19:40,711 --> 00:19:53,691 And at the time, BTC Suite was really, and I think that's become BTCB now, but they were trying to do this re-implementation. 252 00:19:54,071 --> 00:20:01,191 And he said we needed to have these re-implementations in order to prevent some, quote unquote, horrible bug. 253 00:20:01,191 --> 00:20:07,891 That way you've got multiple people all trying to kind of figure out what this Bitcoin consensus thing is. 254 00:20:08,071 --> 00:20:21,272 And then if one of these implementations has some horrible bug, it doesn't completely obliterate the network because a certain percentage of the nodes are not on the quote unquote reference implementation. 255 00:20:22,552 --> 00:20:24,272 Unfortunately, that never materializes. 256 00:20:24,272 --> 00:20:32,331 materializes. And now something like 99.5% of nodes run Bitcoin core. And before you say, 257 00:20:32,471 --> 00:20:41,171 oh, but what about knots? Knots is 95% roughly Bitcoin core code. So in terms of the code 258 00:20:41,171 --> 00:20:51,431 concentration, it's all Bitcoin core. And so I think the smoking gun in that sense is that 259 00:20:51,431 --> 00:20:57,591 is that in 2018, there was an inflation bug. 260 00:20:58,111 --> 00:21:04,052 So all of our institutional effort was consumed with this block-size war. 261 00:21:04,731 --> 00:21:10,171 And then the very thing that Gavin Andreessen had been warning about in 2014 262 00:21:10,171 --> 00:21:16,012 and a horrible bug that we miss because we're not really properly testing consensus, 263 00:21:16,012 --> 00:21:21,371 we don't have alternative implementations, that happens. 264 00:21:21,431 --> 00:21:30,091 And we were lucky, Bitcoin was lucky, in that it was responsibly disclosed by somebody who didn't want to hurt Bitcoin. 265 00:21:30,391 --> 00:21:40,711 But had it been a bad actor, then that could have been devastating for the price of Bitcoin, the reputation of Bitcoin and other things. 266 00:21:41,731 --> 00:21:48,032 Wow. Oh, my gosh. I mean, Josh, I must say, I've not had this happen to me in the last year or so. 267 00:21:48,032 --> 00:21:51,151 I've got about 50 more questions. 268 00:21:51,812 --> 00:21:54,131 And the thing that's so cool is like, 269 00:21:55,111 --> 00:21:56,611 I'm going to leave it at this 270 00:21:56,611 --> 00:21:57,992 because we're going to wrap it up here. 271 00:21:58,071 --> 00:21:59,831 I've got a hard finish in a few minutes time. 272 00:22:00,651 --> 00:22:04,231 What I love as a person that now is, 273 00:22:04,351 --> 00:22:06,131 you know, very much allocated to Bitcoin 274 00:22:06,131 --> 00:22:08,492 in a serious way and has changed their life 275 00:22:08,492 --> 00:22:10,631 and is now on a Bitcoin standard as well. 276 00:22:11,931 --> 00:22:16,071 It's the talent that is slowly but surely, 277 00:22:16,071 --> 00:22:22,651 inch by inch, day by day, year by year, sucked into the vortex of Bitcoin and brings with it 278 00:22:22,651 --> 00:22:29,891 decades of experience that they then reapply. And brilliant, Josh, all those things you just 279 00:22:29,891 --> 00:22:34,891 mentioned, I really hope that those projects go well for you and you uncover what you're looking 280 00:22:34,891 --> 00:22:41,431 for. And I agree to just comment on the consensus stuff. It's kind of like how a democracy should 281 00:22:41,431 --> 00:22:47,512 work it's like the rules are here great these are the rules that we agreed at the start great okay i 282 00:22:47,512 --> 00:22:51,191 want to change them slightly can we change them guys here's how we will change them here's how 283 00:22:51,191 --> 00:22:57,512 you benefit no thanks or sure let's do it and that's why you have bips and it's just like oh 284 00:22:57,512 --> 00:23:03,911 my god this is the kind of coolest thing right and if only democracy did work like that you know 285 00:23:03,911 --> 00:23:09,752 and that's why i like that phrase like bitcoin is is ruled by rules not by rulers um josh i'm 286 00:23:09,752 --> 00:23:12,792 I'm going to leave it with you to, you know, hand off. 287 00:23:12,911 --> 00:23:15,131 So if anyone wants to get in touch or reach out, 288 00:23:15,191 --> 00:23:16,351 then how do they best do that? 289 00:23:16,391 --> 00:23:17,032 And I'm so sorry. 290 00:23:17,071 --> 00:23:19,671 This has been the most rapid fire of episodes I've ever done. 291 00:23:19,871 --> 00:23:20,792 Oh, no, all good. 292 00:23:21,012 --> 00:23:22,512 I really appreciate you. 293 00:23:23,231 --> 00:23:25,231 It's been a pleasure chatting with you. 294 00:23:25,911 --> 00:23:28,812 I am available on X primarily. 295 00:23:28,812 --> 00:23:32,312 I go by Secure Sovereign, SEC Sovereign. 296 00:23:32,992 --> 00:23:33,992 I'll pass you a link. 297 00:23:34,731 --> 00:23:39,711 But, yeah, basically I'm, you know, open to discussion. 298 00:23:39,752 --> 00:23:43,012 and I'm just all Bitcoin all the time. 299 00:23:43,631 --> 00:23:47,671 And if you want to talk about Bitcoin governance 300 00:23:47,671 --> 00:23:52,492 or alternative node implementations or treasuries, 301 00:23:52,812 --> 00:23:55,611 I'm doing all kinds of stuff in this space. 302 00:23:55,731 --> 00:24:00,091 I'm currently working out of the free co-working space 303 00:24:00,091 --> 00:24:05,371 that was launched by Strategy in Northern Virginia. 304 00:24:05,371 --> 00:24:15,871 So I'm in and around the district area, just working with Bitcoin as much as I can. 305 00:24:16,431 --> 00:24:23,012 So yeah, it's been a wild ride and I appreciate you having me. 306 00:24:23,431 --> 00:24:24,091 No, it's my pleasure. 307 00:24:24,231 --> 00:24:25,331 Josh, thank you for joining today. 308 00:24:26,631 --> 00:24:26,971 All right. 309 00:24:27,091 --> 00:24:27,351 Likewise.