1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,800 Andy, welcome to the podcast. 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:05,580 Thanks for having me on. 3 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:07,020 It's my pleasure. 4 00:00:07,220 --> 00:00:09,880 And I am very excited for the conversation today 5 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,200 because we're going to cover something that, frankly, 6 00:00:12,380 --> 00:00:13,640 I don't know enough about. 7 00:00:14,060 --> 00:00:16,220 And I know that I don't know enough about it 8 00:00:16,220 --> 00:00:18,340 because I've been reading some of your newsletter. 9 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,620 So we'll dive in straight away there. 10 00:00:21,980 --> 00:00:23,260 Late last night, I'm like, 11 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,000 oh, look, here's a fresh article. 12 00:00:25,100 --> 00:00:25,940 Let's have a look. 13 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,100 And you're talking about Iran 14 00:00:28,100 --> 00:00:37,040 and you're talking about mind control and the ability to, in some ways, shift reality is probably 15 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:42,460 how I would kind of summarize it. So how on earth did you end up writing about that particular 16 00:00:42,460 --> 00:00:46,020 subject? And I'll let you just take it away with wherever you want to go with it. 17 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,080 Yeah, sure. I think shift reality, I wouldn't say shift, but definitely 18 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:57,600 shape someone's perspective on reality. Okay. But the way I got there, so I grew up in a, 19 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:03,160 I was born into a cult. I was in it only until I was seven, but many decades later had to sort of 20 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:08,740 go back and understand all of the psychological impacts that had on me. And as part of that 21 00:01:08,740 --> 00:01:13,880 process, I started really diving into this concept of mind control. So I think, you know, 22 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:19,020 most people understand that cults use mind control, or there's something pretty weird going 23 00:01:19,020 --> 00:01:27,360 on in any case for kind of cults. But I was reading and reading and it's just kind of consumed 24 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:33,200 my life and and what what i realized and all of the literature talks about this is that mind control 25 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:38,720 is not just in cults but it's used across many facets of society it's a very analogous process 26 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:44,240 so you have a very strong crossover between cults and terrorism for instance you have very well 27 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:50,800 documented that um the chinese the rouse the rise of the maoist party used mind control cult-like 28 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:55,840 mind control indoctrination in how they kind of created the the movement and then ultimately took 29 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:02,500 took over China and use it now in China. So there's a lot of all the literature talks about 30 00:02:02,500 --> 00:02:08,460 how totalitarian regimes use mind control. So I kind of went looking for the articles and the 31 00:02:08,460 --> 00:02:14,240 books and the literature really detailing how they do it, and I couldn't find it. It really 32 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:20,800 doesn't exist. And I was quite shocked at how kind of absent from the public discourse this 33 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:25,440 discussion around mind control was when it's really driving so much of global geopolitics, 34 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,960 whether it's understanding what's going on in the minds of Chinese people, the Chinese government, 35 00:02:30,140 --> 00:02:34,600 what's going on in the minds of, you know, the Iranians or all of these different regimes, 36 00:02:35,180 --> 00:02:41,380 why they behave the way they do, how they control populations, how terrorism operates, 37 00:02:41,380 --> 00:02:46,660 and then even how political division. Anyway, I can go into it, but it was just really surprising 38 00:02:46,660 --> 00:02:51,740 to me how much it seemed to be driving the world and how little there was being kind of talked about 39 00:02:51,740 --> 00:02:53,200 and spoken about on the topic. 40 00:02:53,980 --> 00:02:56,940 Wow. Okay. I mean, what a way to tee up a conversation. 41 00:02:57,180 --> 00:02:58,300 So fascinating. 42 00:02:58,940 --> 00:03:04,960 I cannot go any further than the moment that you understood 43 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:06,400 you were in a cult yourself. 44 00:03:07,460 --> 00:03:09,500 So what on earth happened there? 45 00:03:10,780 --> 00:03:14,720 I always had this story that I had grown up in a spiritual community. 46 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:16,440 That's kind of what we called it. 47 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,960 And I didn't really think much of it. 48 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:25,600 we left when I was seven, as I said, you know, we got kicked out basically long story, my mom had 49 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:31,180 left. And then, you know, they were not okay with us having a relationship with someone that wasn't 50 00:03:31,180 --> 00:03:37,300 in the cult. So it was sort of this ultimatum. And ultimately, my dad and my brother and I left. 51 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:43,820 And so I didn't think too much of it. My parents then got divorced. You know, my we were still 52 00:03:43,820 --> 00:03:49,080 quite close to my dad. But at some point, he started going back to to the group, we called it 53 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:55,980 the group or just Kenja was what it was called. It still is. And still didn't really think much 54 00:03:55,980 --> 00:04:00,540 of it in my 20s. You know, still had a relationship with my dad, would see him once in a while, 55 00:04:00,540 --> 00:04:04,100 but he would always speak what we call Kenja speak. Like you couldn't have a conversation. 56 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,560 It was like I would say something and then he would say something which we would call Kenja speak. 57 00:04:08,900 --> 00:04:13,620 And even then I just was like, this was just this weird thing in my life. You know, it wasn't, 58 00:04:13,740 --> 00:04:19,020 I didn't think much of it. And it was really not until four or five years ago. Well, he sort of 59 00:04:19,020 --> 00:04:24,820 stopped having contact with us over time um sort of just refused calls refused texts so then i 60 00:04:24,820 --> 00:04:30,960 started to sort of think about it more and realized okay it's become a cult was was the framing okay 61 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:36,040 it was a spiritual community was how i thought about it that became a cult over time and that's 62 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:41,820 why my dad you know no longer wanted to talk to us but then it was a conversation with a friend 63 00:04:41,820 --> 00:04:47,300 who'd grown up in a high control um she calls it a high control kind of um jewish community and she 64 00:04:47,300 --> 00:04:53,540 sort of said to me like have you actually thought about whether what you grew up in was actually 65 00:04:53,540 --> 00:04:58,560 always a cult and you know thought about maybe how that's impacted you because she had been going 66 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:04,380 through that that process herself so that's really what kicked it off it was um sitting in a cafe in 67 00:05:04,380 --> 00:05:10,080 LA that I still remember the conversation and she recommended one book to me and then I started 68 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:16,880 reading that and then it kind of has just really gone from there wow it's so extraordinary how one 69 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:23,300 can almost map very specific moments to the timeline that is life that radically alters 70 00:05:23,300 --> 00:05:24,980 the trajectory of where you end up going. 71 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:33,560 So what were the, were there a lot of similarities between your friend's experience in the high 72 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:35,840 control Jewish environment and what you'd been through? 73 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,600 And immediately just like the penny started dropping, oh, hang on. 74 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,900 What if this wasn't, and how did that feel as well? 75 00:05:41,900 --> 00:05:46,980 I mean, it must be such a difficult moment to start to recognize what that was. 76 00:05:48,280 --> 00:05:55,740 Yeah, I think it's funny because so many interests in my life sort of had been pointing me in this direction. 77 00:05:56,100 --> 00:06:04,640 And I just like I always had this fascination with kind of I know it's weird, but like violence and how people could do such violent things to each other and genocide. 78 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:10,100 And I would read Hannah Arendt and the origins of totalitarianism like long before this. 79 00:06:10,100 --> 00:06:20,460 So I always had this sort of interest, I guess, in what now I understand is how people can be controlled and manipulated and the people that do it to do really horrific things. 80 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:22,760 So I always had this interest. 81 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:23,700 I just didn't. 82 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:29,340 So it was almost like it was always coming up and trying to sort of integrate into my into my conscious mind. 83 00:06:30,420 --> 00:06:37,980 And when I did, I honestly, it was liberating because it was it was like, oh, now it all makes sense. 84 00:06:37,980 --> 00:06:42,460 And now I have this sort of framework and this path to understand myself and understand the world. 85 00:06:42,460 --> 00:06:46,680 And it was just the more I started reading, the more I found it interesting. 86 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,360 And it has helped me so much in my own psychology. 87 00:06:49,900 --> 00:06:53,320 And because there's, you know, it's, I'm not the first one to go through this. 88 00:06:53,440 --> 00:07:00,500 And, you know, lots of children who grew up in these high control environments have very similar, similar psychological traits. 89 00:07:00,500 --> 00:07:06,260 And so just having a roadmap, having someone that's written a book about this, and then I can just read it and say, oh, this is great. 90 00:07:06,340 --> 00:07:07,120 Yeah, this makes sense. 91 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,560 and it just makes it all, yeah, it's quite liberating actually. 92 00:07:11,180 --> 00:07:11,640 Okay, cool. 93 00:07:11,740 --> 00:07:15,660 And so I'm feeling drawn to asking about this. 94 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,380 Like, does evil exist? 95 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:25,320 And like, what are the people that drive these types of scenarios 96 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,720 also conscious of what they're doing 97 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,400 or indoctrinated by the ideology itself? 98 00:07:33,140 --> 00:07:34,720 And what makes people do it? 99 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:41,480 this is such a good question it's been such a good question because you see the same 100 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:46,900 sort of psychological manipulation tactics that cult leaders are using and i've always 101 00:07:46,900 --> 00:07:52,680 i've been kind of questioning do they read it do they study it or do they just kind of figure it 102 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:57,320 out as they go and i think it might be a combination or it's probably different for each one 103 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:02,820 but the more i kind of study this and it's you know this is not i'm this is not an original idea 104 00:08:02,820 --> 00:08:06,820 lots of people have come to the same conclusion or you know the theory has been out there that 105 00:08:06,820 --> 00:08:11,740 so much of history is driven by a very very small minority of people who are genuinely 106 00:08:11,740 --> 00:08:17,220 kind of on the psychopathic tendency kind of narcissistic psychopathic that i would 107 00:08:17,220 --> 00:08:24,660 class i don't like to be black and white you know because that's but that are genuinely pretty evil 108 00:08:24,660 --> 00:08:31,900 people um and there are just genuinely people that are born without the capacity for empathy 109 00:08:31,900 --> 00:08:38,000 and so they're driving a lot of history. 110 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:42,160 And so if you look at sort of all of these really intense things 111 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:43,740 that have happened or wars, 112 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,260 there is often one or two people at the top 113 00:08:46,260 --> 00:08:47,900 that seem to be driving a lot of it, 114 00:08:48,300 --> 00:08:51,080 which maybe you could call evil, 115 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,420 but it certainly creates evil in the world. 116 00:08:54,100 --> 00:08:56,640 Yeah, and it's that interesting idea of like history 117 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:57,800 is written by the victors. 118 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:00,880 And this is something that's really only coming to my consciousness 119 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:02,980 in the last five years as well, frankly. 120 00:09:03,100 --> 00:09:03,820 It's like, oh, hang on. 121 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:06,580 Why do I know what I know? 122 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:08,200 Do you know what I mean? 123 00:09:08,220 --> 00:09:09,540 It's like, who taught me that? 124 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:11,460 And, you know, in particular, 125 00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:12,740 reading your article last night 126 00:09:12,740 --> 00:09:15,300 about some of the tactics of the Iranian regime 127 00:09:15,300 --> 00:09:20,840 and the age of the schooling system 128 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,580 that's specifically wielded, 129 00:09:24,580 --> 00:09:25,580 like as a weapon, 130 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,720 to indoctrinate a set of ideas. 131 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:36,060 and just to, I guess, mention a very specific use case in my life, 132 00:09:36,140 --> 00:09:37,600 like if I think about growing up in England, 133 00:09:37,820 --> 00:09:40,020 a history lesson was learning about the kings and queens of England. 134 00:09:40,740 --> 00:09:41,140 Why? 135 00:09:42,980 --> 00:09:44,320 How did they win? 136 00:09:44,620 --> 00:09:45,260 Yes, they won. 137 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:46,400 So they write the history book. 138 00:09:46,820 --> 00:09:49,600 And I'm now in a position where I'm looking at my own children 139 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,200 and thinking about how do I want to navigate their education 140 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,200 and we've actually gone down the homeschooling route. 141 00:09:55,620 --> 00:09:57,120 That's almost like a whole other podcast. 142 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:58,160 I don't want to go down that. 143 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:07,340 But what does it mean then when the history can be written by someone or when the educational textbook can be written by someone? 144 00:10:07,820 --> 00:10:17,020 It's almost like it's a good example of centralization and then the ability of corruption to get to the very top on behalf of someone else's agenda. 145 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:22,660 So is that a recurring theme that you've seen through your research you've been doing? 146 00:10:23,140 --> 00:10:26,420 And is that just a natural phenomenon or what do we do about it? 147 00:10:26,420 --> 00:10:48,500 Yeah, great question. I think it is a natural phenomenon. I think it's not all bad. Like mind control, I think is not all bad because there is an extent to it in a functioning democracy. You want a degree of kind of cohesion. You want a degree of shared narrative. You want people to have some sort of shared values, shared foundation. 148 00:10:48,500 --> 00:10:56,340 those values could be for democracy for freedom and for respect you know institutions and so having 149 00:10:56,340 --> 00:11:02,060 an education system that actually does indoctrinate that is actually not necessarily a bad thing 150 00:11:02,060 --> 00:11:08,580 you know in i just started looking into and i need to go more but denmark actually seems to have a 151 00:11:08,580 --> 00:11:13,020 very interesting education system where they they've had some thinkers that they really respect 152 00:11:13,020 --> 00:11:21,860 And so they're bringing the idea of debate and liberal democracy into the education system in a really interesting way that other countries even in Europe don't. 153 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:38,720 So I don't think that I think we actually have a problem now where we don't have enough sort of we don't have leaders at the top who are actually sort of creating shared narratives and bringing the country together in a sort of positive way. 154 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:44,140 they're actually dividing it and it's almost like you need to figure out what are the shared things 155 00:11:44,140 --> 00:11:49,040 that we all can agree on and focus on that and bring people together that then you're sitting 156 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:55,240 on top of it and having debates about sort of the sub issues um so i don't think it's necessarily 157 00:11:55,240 --> 00:12:01,660 all bad um but it can be become and it can be used very very badly depending on who kind of 158 00:12:01,660 --> 00:12:08,420 wheels it, I guess. So you could have, sorry. No, no, that's okay, Andy. I don't mean to cut in, 159 00:12:08,500 --> 00:12:14,760 but the thought that's on my mind that the relevance of this is just if you map back to 160 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:24,820 nature. It's like, okay, I more and more become persuaded by libertarian type thinking. And 161 00:12:24,820 --> 00:12:28,200 there's no doubt that Bitcoin plays a part in this, right? And separating money from stage and 162 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:33,660 all the problems that that represents. Again, a whole other podcast. But it's interesting because 163 00:12:33,660 --> 00:12:41,920 if I was to strike out alone as a single human being and not live in a tribe, I would really 164 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:48,580 struggle slash it's not worth the effort because you don't get the economies of scale, you don't 165 00:12:48,580 --> 00:12:53,340 get the shared skill sets, you don't get the collaboration, you don't get trade, which is so 166 00:12:53,340 --> 00:12:58,120 clearly something very unique to the human being species versus everything else that 167 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:12,656 we share this planet with So I intrigued by this idea then that maybe mind control of a group is actually a defense mechanism like a trial Yeah absolutely Yeah Okay There definitely 168 00:13:12,656 --> 00:13:18,456 an evolutionary reason. Yeah, exactly. I completely agree with you. It makes complete evolutionary 169 00:13:18,456 --> 00:13:24,576 sense that this happened. So if we think about humans being programmable, so mind control 170 00:13:24,576 --> 00:13:30,556 effectively says you can program a human yeah which we kind of know children can you know 171 00:13:30,556 --> 00:13:34,976 children grow up basically indoctrinated by what their parents think by what's around them 172 00:13:34,976 --> 00:13:40,716 but that's a really logical survival skill for a child because if you have a child that grows up 173 00:13:40,716 --> 00:13:46,056 independent thinker and doesn't fit with the tribe that's quite dangerous for them so you want people 174 00:13:46,056 --> 00:13:52,156 to sort of and and you would have had a natural selection for people who do actually have this 175 00:13:52,156 --> 00:13:56,856 ability to conform and fit in with the tribe and believe in the tribe. And so there's, there's 176 00:13:56,856 --> 00:14:02,236 definitely an evolutionary basis for why you want a degree of programmability, innate in a human to 177 00:14:02,236 --> 00:14:08,016 sort of fit into the tribe. At the same time, if there's too much cohesion, you don't have 178 00:14:08,016 --> 00:14:12,636 innovation, you don't have exploration, you don't have people who are ambitious and leading and 179 00:14:12,636 --> 00:14:18,596 moving the tribe forward. So over time, you would have if you have too much sort of cohesion, 180 00:14:18,596 --> 00:14:24,856 too much mind control in a group that group may not win out in the long run and that's certainly 181 00:14:24,856 --> 00:14:31,336 what we see in say highly authoritarian countries over time versus countries with more democracy and 182 00:14:31,336 --> 00:14:36,436 freedom you see a lot more innovation um a lot more economic kind of growth in those countries 183 00:14:36,436 --> 00:14:42,156 versus authoritarian countries which can't produce the same level of kind of forward forward progress 184 00:14:42,156 --> 00:14:49,096 interesting so that's almost like there's a movie i was attention yeah it's like a it's like almost 185 00:14:49,096 --> 00:14:56,116 like a scale um there's a movie i watched years ago now it's a british comedy movie called hot 186 00:14:56,116 --> 00:15:00,676 fuzz and it talks about the greater good and there's this little village and they're trying 187 00:15:00,676 --> 00:15:06,876 to save the village for the greater good and it's the analogy being is there's there's so clearly so 188 00:15:06,876 --> 00:15:12,976 many places I see in my life, in business as well, where it's like the business has to survive over 189 00:15:12,976 --> 00:15:19,076 and above perhaps individual members of it. And it's like, okay, that's interesting. Why would 190 00:15:19,076 --> 00:15:25,496 that be the case? And what we're describing here is a very obvious reason for that, is it's a 191 00:15:25,496 --> 00:15:31,256 defense mechanism. But then equally, these organizations couldn't survive unless someone 192 00:15:31,256 --> 00:15:38,216 splintered off and then the next way i'm really thinking about that i guess is at some point 193 00:15:38,216 --> 00:15:45,096 a european ship sailed west and at some point they hit the americas and it was it was inevitable that 194 00:15:45,096 --> 00:15:51,896 it would happen because of the outlier wow okay and so now that you've started looking at this 195 00:15:51,896 --> 00:16:00,296 in a more rigorous manner do you see it everywhere i do really i try not but i try to not like with 196 00:16:00,296 --> 00:16:04,376 iran for instance it would be i could write an article and say oh it's all about mind control 197 00:16:04,376 --> 00:16:10,616 and it's not like they use so much just outright repression um and so where you you say okay they're 198 00:16:10,616 --> 00:16:14,996 trying to use mind control like let's actually evaluate it and a big question i have is say 199 00:16:14,996 --> 00:16:19,296 somewhere like china this is a research question i'm going to try and kind of work more on this 200 00:16:19,296 --> 00:16:25,396 year is like how what's the level of actual belief what does it do like how many people actually 201 00:16:25,396 --> 00:16:31,556 believe or it's just sort of physical repression that's causing it i mean so that i do see it 202 00:16:31,556 --> 00:16:37,756 everywhere in society in general and particularly in spiritual narratives and spiritual teachers and 203 00:16:37,756 --> 00:16:43,676 you know personal development um i do see it everywhere but i also see like a lot of really 204 00:16:43,676 --> 00:16:49,676 constructive positive kind of things as well so i try not to get too caught up in yeah well and 205 00:16:49,676 --> 00:16:54,396 it's one of those things you can get a bit bogged down can't you like oh you know and you recognize 206 00:16:54,396 --> 00:17:00,076 this pattern and you kind of want to shake someone perhaps. Andy, I'm intrigued though. So you started 207 00:17:00,076 --> 00:17:06,236 your newsletter in the last few months. Why? And has it been valuable to you so far? 208 00:17:07,596 --> 00:17:13,756 Yeah, I just started. I do want to write a book about this. I just have so much research I've done 209 00:17:13,756 --> 00:17:18,436 across so many different things that I have found so fascinating. And I have so many conversations 210 00:17:18,436 --> 00:17:24,316 with people and many I find many people find it quite interesting so um but I wanted to just start 211 00:17:24,316 --> 00:17:29,996 sharing and start becoming a better writer kind of getting into the habit of writing um figuring 212 00:17:29,996 --> 00:17:35,756 out how to share things how what resonates with people um so it's it's really kind of an exploration 213 00:17:35,756 --> 00:17:41,256 and I'm just getting started but I love it I love writing I love researching so you know I absolutely 214 00:17:41,256 --> 00:17:47,616 love the process regardless of kind of where it goes and so teach me how you do that everyone has 215 00:17:47,616 --> 00:17:54,096 different ways but um do you do you have inspiration moments you know that would that 216 00:17:54,096 --> 00:17:58,776 be a cool idea to pull upon or do you have like a weekly slot you sit down and you just you just 217 00:17:58,776 --> 00:18:06,556 write something um yeah what's the creative process i've been traveling a lot still the 218 00:18:06,556 --> 00:18:13,496 past few months um i'm shifting my life to be much more um in one place so i'm still not in a good 219 00:18:13,496 --> 00:18:19,416 have it but um i would say it's more ad hoc i have a whole list of kind of topics that i would like 220 00:18:19,416 --> 00:18:25,436 to write articles about i had this idea of writing sort of a foundational series of this is how mind 221 00:18:25,436 --> 00:18:31,736 control works um but i think that's a little too abstract and technical for people so what i'm 222 00:18:31,736 --> 00:18:38,156 going shifting to is more sort of case studies and stories um and then particularly as i see world 223 00:18:38,156 --> 00:18:44,016 events like what's going on in iran i had wanted to write articles about iran for a while and so i 224 00:18:44,016 --> 00:18:49,496 thought it made sense to bring that up and and kind of do those earlier interesting and and like 225 00:18:49,496 --> 00:18:57,536 always the the ideation or creative process it's like build it and they will come or study the 226 00:18:57,536 --> 00:19:01,336 market and create something that's definitely needed and there's a sweet spot somewhere where 227 00:19:01,336 --> 00:19:05,816 obviously that list that you've got that's that's that's very much like more of a build it and they 228 00:19:05,816 --> 00:19:09,876 will come type vibe is that I want to write about this stuff. Oh, but hang on. What do people want 229 00:19:09,876 --> 00:19:15,876 to read? So how do you, how do you dovetail those two things? It's very natural, I'm sure, but 230 00:19:15,876 --> 00:19:21,716 no, I'm figuring that out. That's very much kind of what I'm figuring out right, right in this 231 00:19:21,716 --> 00:19:26,936 moment, I would say is, um, what it's, I think that the sub stack is very much, that's what I 232 00:19:26,936 --> 00:19:32,776 kind of was saying. It's like for me to write and see what resonates with people, see how I can 233 00:19:32,776 --> 00:19:40,236 communicate and what people want to listen to or read ultimately. So it's very much an iteration, 234 00:19:41,076 --> 00:19:47,316 get lots of feedback, start kind of just putting the ideas out there more and get feedback and go 235 00:19:47,316 --> 00:19:51,896 from there. And then there's also research that I want to do and that will go into sort of the 236 00:19:51,896 --> 00:19:57,376 longer term work on it. Yeah, and Substack seems to be great for the longer form writing. 237 00:19:57,936 --> 00:20:02,576 And an email is a very private process in a way. It's like, boom, I've literally got an email to 238 00:20:02,576 --> 00:20:08,576 read from whoever it might be. Andy, I'm intrigued to just kind of almost maybe go a bit closer to 239 00:20:08,576 --> 00:20:15,336 home and think about some of the experiences that I personally went through the last few years that 240 00:20:15,336 --> 00:20:23,896 essentially everyone did, but had a unique journey. But the 2020 COVID-19 experience and 241 00:20:23,896 --> 00:20:31,276 global lockdowns, digital censorship, I mean, there's so many different things we can talk 242 00:20:31,276 --> 00:20:43,476 through here, but a clearly globally organized plan, intra-government at a level that basically 243 00:20:43,476 --> 00:20:46,896 we've never seen before. It's like, oh, all businesses shut down except for the ones that 244 00:20:46,896 --> 00:20:52,376 we say are okay and blah, blah, blah. It was just crazy, crazy time. But it really highlighted to me 245 00:20:52,376 --> 00:20:56,996 in some ways, it's like, who are the government that I've trusted my whole life? It's very easy 246 00:20:56,996 --> 00:21:04,976 like China this or Iran that from a, oh, we're okay in their authoritarian, totalitarian regimes. 247 00:21:05,156 --> 00:21:10,456 But I was under house arrest essentially in central Melbourne in Australia for almost two years. 248 00:21:11,276 --> 00:21:16,456 Extraordinary experience. And there's no way that it's possible without a form of mind control. 249 00:21:17,536 --> 00:21:23,196 Because otherwise everyone's like, hang on a second, no one's actually sick. And I can't go 250 00:21:23,196 --> 00:21:28,876 the football, I can't go to the office, I can't work, my kids can't go to school. This is crazy. 251 00:21:28,876 --> 00:21:35,116 I say no, but no one did that. Everyone just stayed at home on an extraordinary scale. There 252 00:21:35,116 --> 00:21:39,596 were some marches and stuff that we got involved in at one point, and you could see the social 253 00:21:39,596 --> 00:21:44,476 unrest building and building and building, the government becoming more and more, the police 254 00:21:44,476 --> 00:21:48,716 more and more threatening, like literally just police everywhere. It's crazy. It's like, no, 255 00:21:48,716 --> 00:21:51,996 Now, the populists don't have guns, so you can't fight back. 256 00:21:52,316 --> 00:21:57,616 So you have to trust that this organization is having your interests at heart. 257 00:21:58,096 --> 00:22:01,056 And then it's like, oh, by the way, you've got to take this medicine to get out. 258 00:22:01,156 --> 00:22:04,356 And the medicine's then made a whole lot of people really, really, really sick. 259 00:22:04,776 --> 00:22:06,816 And it's like, what the hell just happened? 260 00:22:07,956 --> 00:22:11,596 So when I think through, like, democracy, sounds great. 261 00:22:12,196 --> 00:22:13,416 But, like, is it? 262 00:22:13,676 --> 00:22:15,956 And does it exist purely with mind control? 263 00:22:15,956 --> 00:22:21,796 so I don't know if that resonates at all but it's like hang on a sec what's going on 264 00:22:21,796 --> 00:22:29,696 who am I voting for yeah absolutely and I completely agree with you and for me personally 265 00:22:29,696 --> 00:22:34,956 COVID and what happened during that was a big waking up moment I mean I really had trust in 266 00:22:34,956 --> 00:22:38,536 the government before that in Australia I never thought about these things I always thought 267 00:22:38,536 --> 00:22:45,256 the Americans who care about individualism were crazy you know gun-toting rednecks from Texas 268 00:22:45,256 --> 00:22:54,676 um i know i live in texas and see things differently yeah um and it was completely crazy 269 00:22:54,676 --> 00:23:01,376 um and so this is why i think it's so i i kind of kind of thought okay this is what 270 00:23:01,376 --> 00:23:06,576 mind control is this whole topic okay so what's the opposite and so i've come up with this term 271 00:23:06,576 --> 00:23:13,416 cognitive sovereignty and this idea that you kind of have ownership of your own mind you have agency 272 00:23:13,416 --> 00:23:17,196 you're actually making decisions, you're not stuck in someone else's worldview. 273 00:23:18,256 --> 00:23:25,736 And as I think about democracy, do we really live in a democracy if we don't actually have 274 00:23:25,736 --> 00:23:29,696 freedom of thought, if we don't have individual cognitive sovereignty? And so I think about 275 00:23:29,696 --> 00:23:34,516 cognitive sovereignty as being foundational for democracy. And I don't think we have that right 276 00:23:34,516 --> 00:23:40,576 now. I think democracy in its current form still is much better than any other form of government. 277 00:23:40,576 --> 00:23:44,716 So I don't want to sort of get into the democracy is bad. 278 00:23:44,796 --> 00:23:45,916 Everything in the West is bad. 279 00:23:45,916 --> 00:23:48,356 More what we have needs to be improved and protected. 280 00:23:48,676 --> 00:23:50,116 And let's figure out how to do that. 281 00:23:50,756 --> 00:24:00,916 But I do really worry about what's going on in Australia and places like the UK and Europe and parts of the US around particularly speech and freedom of speech. 282 00:24:02,056 --> 00:24:06,316 And it's really scary because freedom of speech is completely fundamental. 283 00:24:06,596 --> 00:24:09,976 Being able to have conversation, being able to dissent, being able to have debate. 284 00:24:10,576 --> 00:24:14,976 is foundational to having democracy and to having freedom of thought and democracy 285 00:24:15,696 --> 00:24:21,936 and i don't think we have that right now in australia and in the in in the uk and europe 286 00:24:21,936 --> 00:24:28,416 where you have effectively speech laws and and kind of hate crimes and government censorship of 287 00:24:28,416 --> 00:24:32,576 you know online censorship and identity verification and it's gradually eroding 288 00:24:32,576 --> 00:24:36,736 the freedom that democracy is built upon and makes it much easier to sort of get 289 00:24:36,736 --> 00:24:42,416 get the nation as a whole into a sort of single feedback loop of mind control. 290 00:24:42,836 --> 00:24:45,796 And that's certainly, I think, what we saw through the pandemic. 291 00:24:47,336 --> 00:24:52,016 You know, mind control is very, it's very, it's very interwoven and you can't separate 292 00:24:52,016 --> 00:24:53,536 out from this concept of groupthink. 293 00:24:54,336 --> 00:25:01,216 So a lot of mind control is driven by conformity, by mimetics, by identity, by in-out group 294 00:25:01,216 --> 00:25:08,816 language um which is so it's so it's very driven by group dynamics and so in covert i think you had 295 00:25:08,816 --> 00:25:15,696 that happening in an extreme extreme way where you had this true and mind control really needs 296 00:25:15,696 --> 00:25:20,976 works best when there's a threat when there's like fear and fear is the most profound emotion 297 00:25:20,976 --> 00:25:26,736 so all mind control works by attaching to emotions and so you had a genuine fear like 298 00:25:26,736 --> 00:25:31,956 I remember at the start of COVID, we didn't know what was going on. It was genuinely scary. Like it 299 00:25:31,956 --> 00:25:36,736 was the first time we, you know, we'd been told we had a pandemic. And so once those ideas get 300 00:25:36,736 --> 00:25:42,976 latched in on the emotional level, it's very hard to sort of deprogram to sort of break those. And 301 00:25:42,976 --> 00:25:47,316 so I think that's really what you saw during the pandemic was this sort of like identity, this fear, 302 00:25:47,316 --> 00:25:54,436 this in-out group. You had behavior control with the masks. You had so much of sort of the classic 303 00:25:54,436 --> 00:25:58,736 mind control things that were going on i don't know i don't you know i don't know if it was some 304 00:25:58,736 --> 00:26:12,873 big orchestrated thing i think there were a lot of people in government genuinely thought they were doing the right thing and then got stuck in their own messiah complex of them saving the world and therefore ends justifies the means um i think that maybe 305 00:26:12,873 --> 00:26:17,513 what happened more than necessarily sort of some i i just don't know i don't have evidence that 306 00:26:17,513 --> 00:26:22,713 there is like a cabal driving the world but certainly what ended up happening looked like 307 00:26:22,713 --> 00:26:30,073 that and so whether it was some crazy group think phenomena um and i but i i think there was this 308 00:26:30,073 --> 00:26:33,873 ends, justifies the means, Messiah complex, people in power. Suddenly it was, you know, 309 00:26:33,933 --> 00:26:39,953 their day to get to be in power. And it was really, really bad. And democracy, you had 310 00:26:39,953 --> 00:26:43,173 suddenly no freedom overnight for an unjustified reason. 311 00:26:44,453 --> 00:26:49,753 I mean, just crazy experience to go through as adults, something that I'm sure in many years to 312 00:26:49,753 --> 00:26:53,893 come be like, what was that like? You're like, well, I mean, my wife was pregnant. I was laughing 313 00:26:53,893 --> 00:26:59,193 to myself. I know what you mean. For the first time in years, I was watching the news and I was 314 00:26:59,193 --> 00:27:06,693 here in Byron Bay with my wife who was like six months pregnant with our first child and my mum 315 00:27:06,693 --> 00:27:13,413 was visiting from England and we got so quote-unquote scared by what this thing was that we 316 00:27:13,413 --> 00:27:16,673 were thinking about how do we get back to Melbourne are we going to drive back because the airport 317 00:27:16,673 --> 00:27:21,233 might be dangerous and then my mum was like much more like chilled about the whole thing 318 00:27:21,233 --> 00:27:25,693 it was like cruising to restaurants and stuff and and we had to make this decision it's like well 319 00:27:25,693 --> 00:27:26,553 What if she's caught it? 320 00:27:26,673 --> 00:27:28,293 She might have got it in the last 24 hours. 321 00:27:28,413 --> 00:27:31,753 So the last time I saw her for two and a half years 322 00:27:31,753 --> 00:27:34,393 was at a three-meter distance on a beach, 323 00:27:34,573 --> 00:27:36,553 like just up the road, to say goodbye. 324 00:27:36,653 --> 00:27:38,453 It's like, you've lost your mind. 325 00:27:38,773 --> 00:27:40,853 You completely lost your mind in that moment. 326 00:27:41,793 --> 00:27:44,413 And you're like, what happened there? 327 00:27:45,173 --> 00:27:46,373 Completely rational person. 328 00:27:46,373 --> 00:27:48,333 And you're thinking about protecting your wife. 329 00:27:48,653 --> 00:27:52,193 So the first wave of that... 330 00:27:52,193 --> 00:27:52,573 But that is rational, in a way. 331 00:27:52,873 --> 00:27:53,713 Correct, yeah. 332 00:27:53,713 --> 00:27:57,833 The first wave of that was just so effective at hitting the fear button. 333 00:27:58,793 --> 00:27:59,233 Absolutely. 334 00:27:59,933 --> 00:28:01,353 And it was a number of months later. 335 00:28:04,513 --> 00:28:05,113 Hang on. 336 00:28:05,733 --> 00:28:06,293 You're still there? 337 00:28:06,393 --> 00:28:07,793 Sorry, my Google map has popped up. 338 00:28:09,193 --> 00:28:12,313 A number of months later, I'm like, oh, hang on a sec. 339 00:28:13,213 --> 00:28:14,353 This doesn't make sense. 340 00:28:14,393 --> 00:28:15,153 What's going on? 341 00:28:15,553 --> 00:28:18,893 So I can see why people get into that state. 342 00:28:19,233 --> 00:28:22,693 And I'm sure it's also, again, it's that nature thing, the group thing. 343 00:28:22,693 --> 00:28:23,612 It's like threat. 344 00:28:23,713 --> 00:28:29,833 get rid of it you know oh wow what an experience well Andy what I'd love to do 345 00:28:29,833 --> 00:28:33,733 now if that's possible about halfway through his shift gears into more of an 346 00:28:33,733 --> 00:28:39,953 investment lens and your day job and just hear about how it's been going so 347 00:28:39,953 --> 00:28:44,833 you know you guys one of the leading venture funds in the Bitcoin space and 348 00:28:44,833 --> 00:28:47,953 I've just more and more been looking like how these companies gonna really 349 00:28:47,953 --> 00:28:53,112 start to grow and what's the next chapter actually look like so so how are 350 00:28:53,112 --> 00:28:58,873 finding things on that front and you know the mind the mind control stuff fascinating but i assume is 351 00:28:58,873 --> 00:29:03,333 a piece of the day that you kind of sneak a bit here and there and you're focused mostly on on 352 00:29:03,333 --> 00:29:09,193 your investment stuff yeah absolutely um but it's it's been interesting how it sort of links in and 353 00:29:09,193 --> 00:29:14,473 i'm just about to sort of start promoting it and it's like what i realized is in bitcoin we talk a 354 00:29:14,473 --> 00:29:20,413 lot about we think about a lot of the external controls and the how the government is controlling 355 00:29:20,413 --> 00:29:24,473 I guess how the financial system, how the monetary system, like external freedom and external control. 356 00:29:24,873 --> 00:29:29,853 And I think what I'm really now focused on is the sort of the internal freedom and the internal controls. 357 00:29:31,133 --> 00:29:32,833 So anyway, I think. 358 00:29:33,173 --> 00:29:34,493 Well, Andy, let me. 359 00:29:35,313 --> 00:29:35,793 That's good. 360 00:29:35,993 --> 00:29:37,733 Am I still there? 361 00:29:38,773 --> 00:29:39,553 Yeah, all good. 362 00:29:40,413 --> 00:29:43,053 Let me draw on that for a second, because it's actually really interesting. 363 00:29:43,673 --> 00:29:48,893 There is a community called Decentralized Consciousness, which you may or may not have come across. 364 00:29:48,893 --> 00:29:53,393 and I've had Caleb on the podcast in the past and Sam Gustafson as well. 365 00:29:54,133 --> 00:29:57,573 And one of the things from that experience that I thought was so interesting 366 00:29:57,573 --> 00:30:00,513 was this idea of meditation as a way of connecting to consciousness 367 00:30:00,513 --> 00:30:02,393 and that being sovereign. 368 00:30:03,213 --> 00:30:08,473 So whatever your meditation tells you is a sense of cognitive sovereignty 369 00:30:08,473 --> 00:30:11,112 because no one else is telling you that. 370 00:30:12,933 --> 00:30:15,033 Have you had any experiences along those lines? 371 00:30:15,513 --> 00:30:18,433 And the second part of the question will then be is like, 372 00:30:18,433 --> 00:30:22,533 if you can see people thinking more like that, are they a good investment? 373 00:30:24,333 --> 00:30:29,853 Are they good investment? I think self-awareness is always something we look for in founders. 374 00:30:30,873 --> 00:30:36,533 That's definitely something we would invest in. You know, meditation is an interesting one. 375 00:30:37,693 --> 00:30:44,733 Meditation can be used, can kind of go either way. I've done a lot of study. I've studied Buddhism. 376 00:30:44,733 --> 00:30:51,573 I've gone deep down a lot of spiritual practices actually and meditation can be used either 377 00:30:51,573 --> 00:30:57,133 so a lot a lot of mind control is suppressing emotion so emotion is always true emotion is 378 00:30:57,133 --> 00:31:02,973 sort of this incredible evolutionary tool that humans have evolved to navigate the world and 379 00:31:02,973 --> 00:31:08,073 social kind of environments and in a big problem at the world right now is emotion is sort of 380 00:31:08,713 --> 00:31:14,373 demonized and we try we repress it instead of integrating it and so when we all repress it as 381 00:31:14,373 --> 00:31:20,373 society then it gets projected outward in one or comes out in one way or another so what a lot of 382 00:31:20,373 --> 00:31:26,033 cults do is actually use thought stopping practices um so if you're in a say a high control environment 383 00:31:26,033 --> 00:31:30,393 or an abusive environment or a cult and you have this feeling that comes up which is like what the 384 00:31:30,393 --> 00:31:37,093 fuck is going on i shouldn't be here i hate this so the cult wants to teach you to suppress all of 385 00:31:37,093 --> 00:31:43,393 your emotions so oh that's just a reaction all we need to do is sit for 10 minutes you know chant 386 00:31:43,393 --> 00:31:49,213 this mantra and you can get rid of that reaction and be a good little cult member so a lot of 387 00:31:49,213 --> 00:31:55,933 meditation can so meditation can be taught that what we want to do is have no thoughts have no 388 00:31:55,933 --> 00:32:01,793 emotions and that's like the sort of mind control version the better version of meditation is meta 389 00:32:01,793 --> 00:32:06,913 awareness so and you can use like mantra there's nothing wrong with it as long as it's not to 390 00:32:06,913 --> 00:32:10,813 repress and to stop and every time you get upset you just go chant a mantra for 10 minutes and 391 00:32:10,813 --> 00:32:17,693 then come back and you're like totally dissociated um so when meditation is used to increase hands 392 00:32:17,693 --> 00:32:22,553 awareness so you're now taking a step back and observing you're observing your thoughts saying 393 00:32:22,553 --> 00:32:27,333 oh wow that's interesting i had this thought come through okay i'm not going to like focus on it i'm 394 00:32:27,333 --> 00:32:32,753 just going to let it go um but maybe i'm going to come back to it so it's just being able to sort of 395 00:32:32,753 --> 00:32:36,933 take a step back and being able to observe yourself and build greater self-awareness 396 00:32:36,933 --> 00:32:41,013 and not be stuck in that thought and in that fear, 397 00:32:41,112 --> 00:32:44,273 but being able to sort of observe it and understand it. 398 00:32:45,033 --> 00:32:46,353 See a fear come up and say, 399 00:32:46,493 --> 00:32:48,653 oh, is that something that's just a trigger 400 00:32:48,653 --> 00:32:50,793 or is it actually a genuine fear? 401 00:32:50,933 --> 00:32:52,112 Do I need to take some action? 402 00:32:52,653 --> 00:32:54,773 I upset, it's about integrating 403 00:32:54,773 --> 00:32:57,753 and taking appropriate response to an emotion 404 00:32:57,753 --> 00:32:59,633 as opposed to kind of suppressing it. 405 00:33:00,313 --> 00:33:01,612 So with meditation, yeah, 406 00:33:01,833 --> 00:33:05,133 it's very interlinked with the idea of cognitive sovereignty, 407 00:33:05,333 --> 00:33:06,693 but it also is very nuanced. 408 00:33:06,933 --> 00:33:13,893 I would say. Yeah, that's a really fascinating reply because an idea comes from somewhere, 409 00:33:13,893 --> 00:33:20,373 the idea maybe is a thought, thought becomes a word, there's then a big step to action. 410 00:33:21,173 --> 00:33:25,333 So like you can think about killing someone, you can talk to someone about killing someone, 411 00:33:25,333 --> 00:33:29,813 but then you actually have to do it. And the same can be applied to a good thing, right? You can 412 00:33:29,813 --> 00:33:34,213 think about having a child, you can talk about having a child, and then you actually, you know, 413 00:33:34,213 --> 00:33:41,813 you have to have the child um so so great point because just just because a meditation tells you 414 00:33:41,813 --> 00:33:48,213 x doesn't mean you you go and specifically do that so the the filter that one has on that experience 415 00:33:48,213 --> 00:33:53,573 is crucial and i do think that's perhaps where you get these like spiritual gurus where they say oh i 416 00:33:53,573 --> 00:33:57,973 meditated and i went to this place and i now have this enlightened view of the world and now you need 417 00:33:57,973 --> 00:34:03,813 to listen to me it's like it's classic classic right this is oh my god this enlightenment and 418 00:34:03,813 --> 00:34:08,993 it's unchallengeable so you always want an unchallengeable source in a good mind control 419 00:34:08,993 --> 00:34:16,133 good mind control system unchallengeable source god oh this is a revelation yes interesting okay 420 00:34:16,133 --> 00:34:21,193 and so and this is something i really find interesting because at the the stage of investment 421 00:34:21,193 --> 00:34:28,613 that you're functioning, it's a bet on a person or a group of people. And so how you understand 422 00:34:28,613 --> 00:34:36,473 that person's mind is possibly the biggest decision you have to make. So how do you figure 423 00:34:36,473 --> 00:34:42,953 that out? Yeah, absolutely. I would say in the second fund, we're investing slightly later, 424 00:34:42,953 --> 00:34:47,832 we're more at the series A stage. And so the nice thing about that is we're looking for 425 00:34:47,832 --> 00:34:53,113 real revenue you know the business that by that point has multi-million dollars worth of revenue 426 00:34:53,113 --> 00:34:59,753 of revenue so what we look at when we get to know founders is um we'll have conversations with them 427 00:34:59,753 --> 00:35:03,852 but it's very hard to get to know someone because they're always presenting sort of this best version 428 00:35:03,852 --> 00:35:06,873 of themselves and you're talking about the business we'll always meet them in person 429 00:35:06,873 --> 00:35:12,373 but what you look at is sort of what's going on under the surface in the business so you can look 430 00:35:12,373 --> 00:35:16,133 at how they respond to things what have they prioritized what are they not doing well what 431 00:35:16,133 --> 00:35:20,013 Are they doing well? What does that tell you about the person? 432 00:35:20,193 --> 00:35:25,473 Are they, or how they respond to a suggestion or how they respond to a question? 433 00:35:25,753 --> 00:35:29,673 And then we might have conversations if there's something that we're not understanding. 434 00:35:29,673 --> 00:35:32,273 It's like, what's actually going on in this person's mind? 435 00:35:32,893 --> 00:35:36,973 Do they have some sort of fear? Do they have some sort of overconfidence? 436 00:35:37,673 --> 00:35:40,113 Some sort of, you know, personal weakness? Do they not? 437 00:35:40,273 --> 00:35:45,852 So it's a huge component, but it's actually very difficult to do, I would say. 438 00:35:46,133 --> 00:35:54,553 So it's something we sort of study and we study these kind of frameworks that, say, police use or different sort of interrogators use. 439 00:35:54,653 --> 00:36:00,673 We don't, you know, we're not interrogating people, but it is something we've thought through. 440 00:36:00,793 --> 00:36:09,313 But it's cool, though. It's about taking ideas from different places and reapplying them to the unique space where you're trying to operate. 441 00:36:09,313 --> 00:36:16,173 And if a interrogation technique helps you understand an opportunity better, then absolutely use it. 442 00:36:16,852 --> 00:36:23,153 It's interesting. So can you please teach me how you've shifted then towards more of a growth phase? 443 00:36:23,273 --> 00:36:35,633 Because it's definitely something I'm looking at more and more where Bitcoin's maturing, founders are maturing, businesses are maturing and starting to see like decent monthly recurring revenue stats come through. 444 00:36:35,633 --> 00:36:38,433 where you're like, well, this is actually a different type of investment to hardcore 445 00:36:38,433 --> 00:36:46,313 seed stage venture. So why the shift to the slightly later? And what opportunity do you see there? 446 00:36:47,573 --> 00:36:54,313 We saw a big gap at the Series 8 stage when we created the first fund in 2022, 447 00:36:54,633 --> 00:36:59,653 which was focused on the seed stage. At that point in time, there was a gap at the seed stage 448 00:36:59,653 --> 00:37:04,213 in terms of funds that were leading rounds. There were quite a few funds that were writing 449 00:37:04,213 --> 00:37:11,033 checks into the space, call it 500,000 to a million, but no funds that were really taking 450 00:37:11,033 --> 00:37:15,033 professional leads and really supporting the founders. So that was the thesis for the first 451 00:37:15,033 --> 00:37:21,993 fund. We would invest at the seed stage and really support those founders. We raised a $25 million 452 00:37:21,993 --> 00:37:31,852 fund and we really did that. We were two thirds deployed through that and two years after looking 453 00:37:31,852 --> 00:37:36,873 at the ecosystem, thinking about raising our next fund. And we saw that the ecosystem exactly, 454 00:37:37,013 --> 00:37:41,973 as you said, was maturing. You had companies that were starting to approach the Series A stage. You 455 00:37:41,973 --> 00:37:47,393 already had companies in the Series A stage, but more of those that were maturing. And you didn't 456 00:37:47,393 --> 00:37:52,233 have a Bitcoin fund that was really investing at the Series A stage and leading those rounds. 457 00:37:52,813 --> 00:37:57,753 So that was our thesis that there might not be enough companies when we started the fund ready 458 00:37:57,753 --> 00:38:01,793 to invest in, but we were seeing the momentum in the ecosystem 459 00:38:01,793 --> 00:38:05,253 and seeing that over that investment period of three to four years, 460 00:38:05,633 --> 00:38:09,053 there would be more than enough deal flow for us to be able to invest in. 461 00:38:09,153 --> 00:38:10,352 And we've certainly seen that. 462 00:38:10,433 --> 00:38:11,113 We've had the fund. 463 00:38:11,413 --> 00:38:13,613 We had first close of the fund around 18 months ago, 464 00:38:13,793 --> 00:38:16,533 and deal flow is kind of stronger than we expected. 465 00:38:17,053 --> 00:38:19,593 We have five core Series A investments now, 466 00:38:19,753 --> 00:38:23,273 so we're really, really happy with it and certainly seeing the maturity 467 00:38:23,273 --> 00:38:28,713 in the ecosystem that we had expected and that is really, really exciting to see. 468 00:38:29,273 --> 00:38:35,593 It's so cool. It really is so cool. And so is there a specific niche within the Bitcoin ecosystem 469 00:38:35,593 --> 00:38:40,553 that you guys like? And I'm thinking along maybe an infrastructure lens or something like that, 470 00:38:40,553 --> 00:38:44,633 where you're like, this is the type of business that we'd like to own part of going forwards, 471 00:38:44,633 --> 00:38:47,352 or is it more opportunistic in terms of what turns out? 472 00:38:47,352 --> 00:38:49,852 It's more opportunistic. 473 00:38:49,852 --> 00:38:55,973 We always have themes or ideas that we want to see built or that we think should be built. 474 00:38:55,973 --> 00:39:01,233 But mostly we're waiting for the entrepreneur to really figure that out and build something 475 00:39:01,233 --> 00:39:03,413 to a point where we can invest in it. 476 00:39:03,413 --> 00:39:19,629 Ultimately entrepreneurs are typically the ones that are more plugged in Maybe they have a problem they solving for themselves or they in a company and seeing a problem or they deep in Bitcoin technology and seeing what possible So generally you have entrepreneurs coming in and they had this 477 00:39:19,629 --> 00:39:25,789 specific lens, which gave them this specific insight to build the company. So we don't have 478 00:39:25,789 --> 00:39:34,289 a specific type of business. We have infrastructure companies, we have B2C companies, we have 479 00:39:34,289 --> 00:39:41,889 yeah kind of b2b really institutional product companies as well so it really just depends 480 00:39:41,889 --> 00:39:48,669 it depends on the company yeah and I love that kind of idea of especially as an investor sitting 481 00:39:48,669 --> 00:39:55,009 at this kind of sweet spot where a person has devoted their life for a number of years on 482 00:39:55,009 --> 00:40:02,189 solving a problem that they felt or that they saw and they have not just got the kind of product 483 00:40:02,189 --> 00:40:06,569 market fit proof, but actually they're starting to make good revenue. 484 00:40:06,569 --> 00:40:12,029 And that is a different place to like, I've got this epic idea, or I've had this idea 485 00:40:12,029 --> 00:40:15,649 and I built this prototype and look at how it's working. 486 00:40:15,649 --> 00:40:18,649 It's just a completely different phase of business essentially. 487 00:40:18,649 --> 00:40:23,989 And so to flip that to the other side, because there are so many highly motivated, ethically 488 00:40:23,989 --> 00:40:30,589 aligned, talented people building stuff for Bitcoin or on Bitcoin. 489 00:40:30,589 --> 00:40:36,229 an investor perspective, what are those kind of conversations going like? Is there more 490 00:40:36,229 --> 00:40:40,449 institutional money looking to get into this kind of phase? Is it mainly high net wealth 491 00:40:40,449 --> 00:40:46,249 that are putting money in? And what's the kind of return profile with that? Because obviously 492 00:40:46,249 --> 00:40:50,269 you could just own Bitcoin, right? And that's probably going to do pretty well for you. 493 00:40:50,869 --> 00:40:54,129 So yeah, I'd love to learn more about the other side to that scale. 494 00:40:54,829 --> 00:40:57,669 You mean who's investing in the first check-in? 495 00:40:57,669 --> 00:41:07,689 Yeah. So as the leading fund working in and around Series A and Bitcoin, who's giving you a call and saying, OK, we now like the look of this. What can we do? 496 00:41:09,129 --> 00:41:12,529 There are a few funds in the ecosystem that are investing earlier. 497 00:41:12,709 --> 00:41:17,709 And we do also invest all the way from pre-C through to Series A in the fund. 498 00:41:17,809 --> 00:41:20,809 It's just the largest numbers go into the Series A checks. 499 00:41:20,809 --> 00:41:27,429 sure um so i think if anyone's out there in building the first the best way to get the first 500 00:41:27,429 --> 00:41:32,089 check is usually friends and family or angel investors when you just have an idea and you 501 00:41:32,089 --> 00:41:36,809 just want to need some funding the best way to do it really is if you can bootstrap it invest your 502 00:41:36,809 --> 00:41:42,149 own money um but of course if that's not possible then friends and family is a really good way to do 503 00:41:42,149 --> 00:41:47,749 it and then we there's there's a variety of funds out there whether it's time chain or folgo or 504 00:41:47,749 --> 00:41:52,669 there's a few other ones as well um that do invest earlier and smaller checks as well 505 00:41:52,669 --> 00:41:59,149 so there is pretty decent capital available um andy what i more meant was like so you guys 506 00:41:59,149 --> 00:42:05,069 obviously have a fund structure and you're taking money from other people so who are those other 507 00:42:05,069 --> 00:42:11,149 people just generally speaking right yeah got it yeah so because who are our lps yes yeah so 508 00:42:11,149 --> 00:42:15,829 So those LPs, they can put their money anywhere. 509 00:42:16,329 --> 00:42:17,849 So why are they looking here? 510 00:42:18,029 --> 00:42:21,209 And just, I'd love to have a flavor for those kinds of conversations. 511 00:42:22,209 --> 00:42:22,349 Yeah. 512 00:42:22,449 --> 00:42:30,069 Most of our LPs, I would say, are ultra high net worth investors that are Bitcoiners that 513 00:42:30,069 --> 00:42:32,609 most of them, I would say, have built a business themselves. 514 00:42:32,609 --> 00:42:35,369 So they kind of get what it means to build a business. 515 00:42:36,249 --> 00:42:40,549 They also get kind of a lot of the problems in the world and in the economy. 516 00:42:41,149 --> 00:42:45,969 And most of them, in fact, I'm sure all of them have a very significant Bitcoin investment. 517 00:42:46,629 --> 00:42:50,389 And so the investment in our fund would sit alongside their Bitcoin investment. 518 00:42:50,389 --> 00:42:54,569 We wouldn't really ever have an investor that invests in this instead of Bitcoin. 519 00:42:54,929 --> 00:43:05,609 We really see it as an additional way to get exposure to the Bitcoin ecosystem, which could exceed the rate of return of Bitcoin and is also partially decorrelated with Bitcoin. 520 00:43:05,609 --> 00:43:09,389 So we definitely target returns in excess of Bitcoin. 521 00:43:09,609 --> 00:43:15,349 And certainly founders coming into the space sort of have that mindset already of Bitcoin is the hurdle rate. 522 00:43:15,809 --> 00:43:18,209 So they do need to beat Bitcoin is the hurdle rate. 523 00:43:18,389 --> 00:43:23,529 You have companies that are generating Bitcoin directly and so earning in Bitcoin. 524 00:43:23,889 --> 00:43:27,569 So kind of naturally you're accelerating that accumulation of Bitcoin. 525 00:43:28,289 --> 00:43:32,689 So that's really why our investors invest a lot, someone to support the ecosystem. 526 00:43:32,689 --> 00:43:36,769 but ultimately it is they think that it does have the potential to have really strong returns. 527 00:43:37,889 --> 00:43:42,769 And I think the decorrelation helps as well. Like we have companies that their revenue is not linked 528 00:43:42,769 --> 00:43:47,649 to the Bitcoin price because the service they're providing is payments on Bitcoin, for instance, 529 00:43:47,649 --> 00:43:51,809 for businesses, which the business runs regardless of the Bitcoin price. 530 00:43:51,809 --> 00:43:57,489 Yeah, I'd love to learn more about how you think about decorrelation because, and case study being, 531 00:43:57,489 --> 00:44:03,089 and full confession the last six weeks has been a really brutal experience for me as a private 532 00:44:03,089 --> 00:44:11,809 investor of my own capital and net assets for me over 14 months are like 60 down and i committed to 533 00:44:11,809 --> 00:44:15,649 buying a house and doing a renovation and there's a whole load of headache that's come with that it's 534 00:44:15,649 --> 00:44:22,129 been very stressful for my wife and i and it's i just went hardcore bitcoin i was like this is the 535 00:44:22,129 --> 00:44:27,329 thing that's going to fucking do it and i absolutely still believe that but the volatility 536 00:44:27,329 --> 00:44:33,329 over about three and a half years i was sitting on a 5x i'm like this is a no-brainer why wouldn't 537 00:44:33,329 --> 00:44:38,549 everyone do this and suddenly that becomes i mean it's still two two and a half three it's great but 538 00:44:38,549 --> 00:44:43,469 you're then you're pegged to this previous price and there's a whole i mean talk about mind games 539 00:44:43,469 --> 00:44:47,609 you're playing mind games with yourself all day long and trying not to self-sabotage and i'm having 540 00:44:47,609 --> 00:44:48,629 I do lots of work on that. 541 00:44:49,209 --> 00:44:56,009 But the uncorrelated nature of what you're talking about has for the first time really 542 00:44:56,009 --> 00:44:58,269 hit home to me as to how valuable that is. 543 00:44:58,609 --> 00:45:03,429 Because you're not just getting pure Bitcoin price exposure and it is going to be volatile 544 00:45:03,429 --> 00:45:08,089 over multi-year ranges, not just like six months, but like in four years time, it might 545 00:45:08,089 --> 00:45:09,409 not be where you thought it was going to be. 546 00:45:10,309 --> 00:45:14,629 So yeah, how compelling is that to an investor when you're speaking to them? 547 00:45:14,629 --> 00:45:16,849 And is that specifically what they're looking for? 548 00:45:16,849 --> 00:45:23,729 because after my experience that would be a real selling point yeah i get it no i know it's been it 549 00:45:23,729 --> 00:45:29,169 has been tough and and it is difficult sort of mentally and emotionally to you know i've been 550 00:45:29,169 --> 00:45:34,609 going through the same thing it is difficult mentally and emotionally um to navigate that 551 00:45:34,609 --> 00:45:42,029 um i would say historically that has not been a major selling point for our lps it's something 552 00:45:42,029 --> 00:45:46,509 we've always talked about i don't know how much to be honest that's been a major selling point 553 00:45:46,509 --> 00:45:51,329 but yeah it's interesting maybe after this latest drawdown and that in our next fund it might be 554 00:45:51,329 --> 00:45:57,269 more interesting um i know for me personally it does make life easier that i'm not sort of 555 00:45:58,189 --> 00:46:05,749 with the fund and the business you know if i have people i know that have kind of liquid crypto 556 00:46:05,749 --> 00:46:12,349 investment funds and there it's like the whole everything they've worked for is just like down 557 00:46:12,349 --> 00:46:19,629 80 and that's extraordinarily difficult um yes whereas for us we just our companies keep building 558 00:46:19,629 --> 00:46:24,269 and they just keep going through and if you know we have a company called ln markets which is 559 00:46:24,269 --> 00:46:29,789 derivatives trading and so you when you have volatility they benefit because people want to 560 00:46:29,789 --> 00:46:36,589 kind of trade and do derivatives um so it's it and that's that was definitely important for us going 561 00:46:36,589 --> 00:46:41,069 in but and when we do invest in companies we always look for companies that can build through 562 00:46:41,069 --> 00:46:44,829 and grow revenue through down cycles and through bear markets. 563 00:46:45,169 --> 00:46:50,049 And that is something really important we look for in companies as well. 564 00:46:50,989 --> 00:46:51,149 Cool. 565 00:46:51,509 --> 00:46:54,269 Yeah, it's not something I would have batted an eyelid at 566 00:46:54,269 --> 00:46:55,709 in terms of correlation previously, 567 00:46:55,709 --> 00:46:57,989 but now it's definitely something, oh, that's interesting. 568 00:46:58,969 --> 00:47:03,409 Another space that personally it's highlighted for me as well 569 00:47:03,409 --> 00:47:05,789 is in a sense I was the same. 570 00:47:05,889 --> 00:47:08,449 I was like a crypto fund, but just on a private basis. 571 00:47:08,449 --> 00:47:13,249 And so it's like all of life that was being paid for previously has now become twice as expensive. 572 00:47:13,809 --> 00:47:18,309 You know, ah, that wasn't quite as good a plan as I thought it was. 573 00:47:18,629 --> 00:47:24,069 And one of my mentors I was talking to last night, this phrase is like, I spoke about this recently. 574 00:47:24,169 --> 00:47:26,009 I would join Daniel Prince on his podcast. 575 00:47:26,749 --> 00:47:30,809 Mike Tyson at some point quoted, everyone thinks they're great till they get smacked in the face. 576 00:47:31,449 --> 00:47:34,869 And you're like, oh, that's kind of what it feels like, right? 577 00:47:34,929 --> 00:47:36,789 Like, oh, why didn't everyone do this? 578 00:47:36,789 --> 00:47:37,429 They're all idiots. 579 00:47:37,429 --> 00:47:42,809 So I've killed it. Here we go. I've got my time. I can do all this stuff. And then you're like, oh. 580 00:47:42,969 --> 00:47:48,649 So now you have to react. One of the steps I will take for sure is making money with my time. 581 00:47:49,389 --> 00:47:54,709 Previously, I was pegged to a net wealth and that was my psychological peg to doing well. 582 00:47:54,709 --> 00:47:59,309 Whereas actually, if you're making money off your time, this sounds really simple to most people, I'm sure. 583 00:48:00,009 --> 00:48:05,029 And first world problems for me, admittedly, that is a natural hedge against any drawdown. 584 00:48:05,029 --> 00:48:10,089 So there's a number of steps I'm going to put in to make sure that I never feel like this again. 585 00:48:11,989 --> 00:48:12,729 Really interesting. 586 00:48:12,729 --> 00:48:14,589 And that's exactly what emotions are for, by the way. 587 00:48:14,769 --> 00:48:17,109 It's like, that's why you're feeling the emotion. 588 00:48:17,389 --> 00:48:19,489 Like, this is why emotions are so important. 589 00:48:19,829 --> 00:48:23,169 You could go and do a meditation and be like, it's all okay. 590 00:48:23,329 --> 00:48:24,249 All the world is fine. 591 00:48:24,469 --> 00:48:25,249 I can just live. 592 00:48:25,589 --> 00:48:28,449 Or you can be like, hey, I don't like feeling like this. 593 00:48:28,689 --> 00:48:32,029 How can I put steps in place to make sure that in future I don't feel like this? 594 00:48:32,029 --> 00:48:34,369 And that's like what the emotion is there for. 595 00:48:35,029 --> 00:48:42,269 Yeah, and I could share as well, just on that emotion front, again, it's my conversation with Daniel that's making me think about this. 596 00:48:42,649 --> 00:48:46,289 So I was at boarding school in the UK from the age of eight to 18. 597 00:48:47,449 --> 00:48:52,889 And Daniel and I were talking in detail about what that experience was like. 598 00:48:53,209 --> 00:48:57,269 But in many ways, it's an emotion suppression process. 599 00:48:57,929 --> 00:49:03,189 And so as a young boy, you get thrown into this environment where it's like you show any emotion and you get bullied straight away. 600 00:49:03,189 --> 00:49:04,309 So you just don't. 601 00:49:04,309 --> 00:49:07,269 and therefore I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. 602 00:49:07,689 --> 00:49:09,029 And this system produces, 603 00:49:10,329 --> 00:49:12,369 a British private school system 604 00:49:12,369 --> 00:49:14,529 produces political leaders, business leaders, 605 00:49:14,969 --> 00:49:16,509 judges, the whole shebang 606 00:49:16,509 --> 00:49:19,089 and none of them have felt anything 607 00:49:19,089 --> 00:49:20,569 since the age of eight. 608 00:49:21,389 --> 00:49:22,429 How crazy is that? 609 00:49:23,169 --> 00:49:25,089 And I know that's true 610 00:49:25,089 --> 00:49:26,529 because I've got friends like that 611 00:49:26,529 --> 00:49:28,789 and myself at times. 612 00:49:29,149 --> 00:49:30,949 And so one thing that we're trying to do with our kids 613 00:49:30,949 --> 00:49:33,389 is to allow them to express emotion 614 00:49:33,389 --> 00:49:36,789 and say things like, you're okay, you can be upset. 615 00:49:37,349 --> 00:49:40,229 Hitting's not something that's okay, or whatever the case might be. 616 00:49:40,769 --> 00:49:45,849 But it's so funny because the triggers of your children, I get furious. 617 00:49:46,529 --> 00:49:49,489 And one of the reasons I get furious is because they're getting upset. 618 00:49:50,049 --> 00:49:52,109 And part of me is a little Jake inside. 619 00:49:52,189 --> 00:49:54,669 He wants to be upset and was never allowed to be. 620 00:49:55,529 --> 00:49:57,929 And you're like, oh, what is this journey that's life? 621 00:49:58,169 --> 00:50:00,609 You know, these lessons you're getting is now I'm what? 622 00:50:00,669 --> 00:50:01,789 I'll be 38 in June. 623 00:50:01,789 --> 00:50:05,029 You're like, Christ, you just don't know what's going to come up, do you? 624 00:50:06,469 --> 00:50:06,909 Yeah. 625 00:50:07,289 --> 00:50:07,729 Wow. 626 00:50:08,189 --> 00:50:12,669 Yeah, this British private school system sounds so horrible. 627 00:50:13,149 --> 00:50:15,609 Like, it's very, it's kind of culty. 628 00:50:16,109 --> 00:50:17,209 It's very culty. 629 00:50:17,449 --> 00:50:17,489 I understand. 630 00:50:17,649 --> 00:50:20,229 And actually, it's like really not healthy. 631 00:50:20,509 --> 00:50:22,149 And I have a lot of compassion. 632 00:50:22,329 --> 00:50:24,089 I remember reading Roald, do you know Roald Dahl? 633 00:50:24,449 --> 00:50:24,649 Yep. 634 00:50:24,749 --> 00:50:30,049 And he wrote the book about his childhood and wrote all about his experience in this private school. 635 00:50:30,049 --> 00:50:32,069 and I remember being horrified. 636 00:50:32,149 --> 00:50:33,469 What the hell was the book called? 637 00:50:33,589 --> 00:50:35,169 It's like Boy, maybe? 638 00:50:35,889 --> 00:50:37,889 I read it decades, like years ago. 639 00:50:37,889 --> 00:50:38,429 It's an excellent book, yeah. 640 00:50:38,709 --> 00:50:40,589 But it was like, whoa. 641 00:50:40,729 --> 00:50:42,309 You know what's making me think about, Andy, 642 00:50:42,549 --> 00:50:45,809 is your description earlier of being in a cult 643 00:50:45,809 --> 00:50:47,249 and being like, it's just a reaction. 644 00:50:48,429 --> 00:50:51,169 It's kind of like what you would see in dormitories 645 00:50:51,169 --> 00:50:53,169 when boys are just losing it. 646 00:50:53,749 --> 00:50:54,909 They just lost it. 647 00:50:55,389 --> 00:50:57,609 And it's like, well, it's because they're not supposed to be here, right? 648 00:50:57,949 --> 00:50:59,269 It's like, uh-oh, that's just a reaction. 649 00:50:59,269 --> 00:51:01,049 They can come over here, you know. 650 00:51:01,749 --> 00:51:02,829 Whoa, interesting. 651 00:51:03,609 --> 00:51:04,069 Oh, Andy. 652 00:51:04,369 --> 00:51:06,589 Okay, well, listen, we're pushing up to the hour, 653 00:51:06,929 --> 00:51:08,989 and I could go for like another two or three, 654 00:51:09,029 --> 00:51:11,809 and we touched on all sorts of subjects that we just didn't have time for today. 655 00:51:11,929 --> 00:51:13,989 But really awesome to spend some time with you. 656 00:51:14,049 --> 00:51:14,769 Thank you so much. 657 00:51:15,069 --> 00:51:19,889 And the thing I always enjoy so much about having done podcasts 658 00:51:19,889 --> 00:51:22,889 for a few different years now is seeing people's progress. 659 00:51:23,509 --> 00:51:25,309 Because, you know, we had a conversation before, 660 00:51:25,389 --> 00:51:26,489 and you see what happens in between. 661 00:51:26,669 --> 00:51:27,969 It's really awesome to see. 662 00:51:27,969 --> 00:51:29,469 So thank you for sharing everything today. 663 00:51:30,429 --> 00:51:32,289 Just one final question is, 664 00:51:32,449 --> 00:51:34,009 is there anything that we haven't touched on 665 00:51:34,009 --> 00:51:35,009 that you'd like to talk about? 666 00:51:36,369 --> 00:51:38,909 Oh, no, not specifically. 667 00:51:39,389 --> 00:51:40,609 Nothing comes to mind. 668 00:51:41,029 --> 00:51:41,289 Cool. 669 00:51:41,589 --> 00:51:42,609 No, thanks for having me on. 670 00:51:42,869 --> 00:51:44,149 And it's been a great conversation. 671 00:51:44,669 --> 00:51:45,249 So I appreciate it. 672 00:51:45,249 --> 00:51:45,789 My pleasure. 673 00:51:46,189 --> 00:51:48,449 Where can people reach you if they want to get in touch? 674 00:51:49,329 --> 00:51:51,069 So to follow my sub stack, 675 00:51:51,149 --> 00:51:54,049 it's called the Clyra Passages, C-L-Y-R-A. 676 00:51:54,629 --> 00:51:56,429 If you Google search, it'll come up. 677 00:51:56,429 --> 00:51:58,649 and you can follow me on Twitter. 678 00:51:58,849 --> 00:52:00,689 I am at one, so the number one 679 00:52:00,689 --> 00:52:03,169 and then Andy Pitt, A-N-D-I-P-I-T-T. 680 00:52:03,889 --> 00:52:04,289 Perfect. 681 00:52:04,509 --> 00:52:06,409 And I'll pop those into the show notes as well. 682 00:52:06,609 --> 00:52:06,869 Perfect. 683 00:52:06,889 --> 00:52:08,189 Andy, thank you so much for your time today. 684 00:52:09,009 --> 00:52:09,709 Thanks so much. 685 00:52:09,949 --> 00:52:10,109 Bye.