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Mr. Rev Hoddle, welcome to the podcast.

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Hey, good to be here.

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Thank you very much for joining.

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So today we have chatted before and shout out to Gary for putting us in touch via NOSTA

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to talk about capital and the different forms of capital.

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And I confess, I listened to a couple of the episodes you shared with me and you touched

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on permaculture in a way that I'd never understood before.

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and mentioned a couple of resources. And so I bought a permaculture book and was pumping through

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that and didn't finish it, which is so often the way, isn't it? It's like, damn it, didn't get

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through it all. But that's what I'd love to focus on today is the different forms of capital that

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you are stewarding, blending together. What are they and why are they important? So Rev,

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so what is capital? Well, yeah, to start off, I guess it's good to put a definition of capital

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out there. And really, what capital is, it's any productive asset. And that doesn't necessarily

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mean in the physical world, you can also have productive assets in like, as far as intellectual

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capital or experience goes. And so you can also utilize capital as far as your mind, as well as

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the things that you wield in the physical world.

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But it's basically anything that you can utilize

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to produce something.

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Okay.

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And I actually almost haven't said it,

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or haven't heard it said as succinctly as that.

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So anything productive that you can utilize.

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My framing for this, Rev, is not the permaculture one,

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and that's what I enjoyed so much about listening

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to some of the work you've been doing,

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but more from a multi-generational wealth planning perspective and listeners to the podcast will know

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my backstory but just to very briefly share with you the that's a problem point where I started

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this journey from which was the sudden death of my father and he was a wealthy guy I was the eldest

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son we had a bit of real estate that I ended up deciding to sell and so I received an inheritance

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and you have this pot of financial capital that you're like, what the hell do I do with this?

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Like, obviously, I need to steward it effectively to give to my kids when that eventually happens.

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And, you know, cue over a decade of trying and failing to use different asset classes

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and realizing that actually this thing, Bitcoin, is just by far and away the best tool

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for intergenerational wealth management, in my opinion.

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But that's opened up a whole research process of like, well, actually, that's just financial capital.

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And the episode I did recently with Jason Parks, who's a mentor of mine, we're looking very closely at the blend of financial capital, but with humanistic and intellectual.

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So how I would think about it is you need humanistic wealth and intellectual wealth or humanistic capital and intellectual capital to drive financial returns.

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and how I would define humanistic is really like the relationship with your partner,

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the children that you actually have,

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and intellectual being your mindset and the skills that you have to provide to the world.

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And with those two together, you're actually then able to drive financial returns.

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But a common problem seen in many families is the shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves problem

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where you get a much like the cyclical seasons, right?

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You get some tough, strong, aggressive entrepreneur

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that sees an opportunity and builds something.

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And the generation that follows them saw it getting built

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and they're able to then keep it going a little longer.

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But generation number three, so the founders, grandkids,

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they've only ever known wealth.

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They've never known what it felt like to have nothing.

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and often what that means is that the the life cycle of wealth is only three generations and by

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the fourth generation they're back figuring out how to start again and so the lens of financial

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humanistic and intellectual is very important when it comes to like how do you try and sustain that

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over multiple generations um does any of that resonate and and let's try and weave in some

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permaculture stuff because there's you know there's cultural capital there's social capital

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is relationship capital. There's so many different kind of areas to it, essentially.

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Well, permaculture is basically the framework that you can use to break that cycle. That's the

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whole goal of permaculture, ultimately, is to build capital and save capital for future generations,

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and not just for the next few, but for many leading forward. And the framework of permaculture,

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utilizing the ethics and principles creates this guide that now you can prevent yourself from making

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these mistakes intergenerate intergenerationally because you know if you break the word down

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permanent culture that's not necessarily to say that it's permaculture's goal is to create an

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ossified and unchanging culture but more so a culture that is capable of withstanding any

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challenges, any uncertainty, and how to basically have a big enough savings to

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insulate against any of the things that might come up as time goes on.

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Okay. And so how does permaculture look to develop savings?

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Well, I guess first, there's some ethics involved in permaculture and

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any culture is ultimately built upon ethics. And so in permaculture, the three ethics are earth care,

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people care, and the third ethic I call non-extraction now. David Holmgren and Bill

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Mollison, the founders of permaculture, they define the third ethic as redistribution of the

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surplus back to the system. And so that's kind of a wordy way to follow up the simple ethics of

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earth care and people care. And so people have tried to shorten this third ethic in the past.

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And most people that practice permaculture arrive at calling the third ethic fair share.

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Now, fair share lends itself to a little bit of a more open interpretation, I think.

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It's less straightforward than simply saying non-extraction.

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And so that's why I call the third ethic non-extraction.

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And in addition to the ethics, there's also 12 principles in permaculture.

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And these principles you use to design and interact with complex systems. And cultures are complex systems, economies are complex systems, and ultimately economies are derived from cultural systems.

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And so utilizing these ethics to build and interact with these systems, observe complex systems, allows you to have this framework, which then you can use to continue to build capital and maintain the savings of that capital for future generations.

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okay and so i just was quickly checking the uh the resource that you mentioned so i was reading

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the essence of permaculture by david holmgren and i thought i mean i could probably see

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yeah 81 of the way through i'm at principal 10 and i really really enjoyed it what i think i

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struggled with is the bitcoin journey has has made me more libertarian more free market oriented

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and this third ethic of giving back or um sharing somehow it's a contradiction to some of those more

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like hardcore libertarian views because it's like it's not yours what you created

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i don't know is that like um do you kind of see what i'm saying there so

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this this idea of of giving back at the end it's like why should i give it back

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um so perhaps you could help me understand a bit more why that's such an important part of the

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permaculture ethic process well and that's i think that's where this misinterpretation of that third

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ethic comes in um as it's been shortened to fair share this lends itself to more um communistic

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socialistic minds yeah that's what i got struck by like that's a really socialistic kind of frame

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It's like, well, hang on. Why would I? That didn't sit very well with me as I was researching the concepts. Put it that way.

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Yeah. So you can we can maybe use like natural systems.

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A lot of times permaculture, when people hear about permaculture, they start learning about permaculture.

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They think about it through the lens of farming, gardening, things like that. Right.

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So we can take an example. I raise sheep here at the homestead.

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I've got a 20 acre homestead.

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I've been doing this, living this homesteading lifestyle for about 10 years and I've integrated

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Bitcoin into it for the last five.

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And so with my sheep, I rotationally graze these sheep.

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Now, the name of the game here is to maximize the stocking density of the 10 acres of pasture

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that I have in order to produce the most lamb meat in a given season.

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So essentially, I'm just trying to catch as much sunlight as possible, turn that into

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grass, feed the grass to the sheep, and then get the maximum yield I can out of it. Now, as I

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improve and get more experience rotating these sheep and see some success in that, the tendency

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here is to push more and more and more. And ultimately, when you're stressing the pasture

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out, when you're trying to maximize the yield you can get, you can start to create an extractive

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mindset around it or an extractive tendency and see this is where i i see the difference between

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fair share uh and non-extraction when it comes to interpreting this redistribution of the surplus

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back to the system uh it's not like it's not a forced sorry to jump in red but it's really got

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my brain going it's it's not an enforced socialization of the gains which would be you

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know some form of taxation it's like okay these are all the net earners in the economy and you

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we're going to take 50% of your ship to give to everyone else and us because you achieve that.

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It's actually like, if you want optimal growth of your ecosystem, don't overgraze, which would be

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that's the yes. Okay, cool. I love that. So non extraction is the critical shift in your

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terminology there. Right? Because if you start to overgraze, then you're now you're starting to

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degrade the land. And you're, you're, you're not building capital, right? You're starting to go

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You're starting to chip away at it. Yes.

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But humans, we tend to try and push that limit.

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That's it's just what's basically caused the downfall of cultures and civilizations over and over again.

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And a lot of times when you look at it through the lens of money, right, we have a lot of times this fiat money works for a while.

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But then people start to say, hey, there's some there's some games I can play here to get a little bit more.

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and then they start to extract more and more and more until there's so much extraction that

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the system ultimately fails and so the reason why it's an ethical thing is because it's very hard to

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define what extraction actually is um it's it's got to be um coming from your own interpretation

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of that uh that's i guess that's what separates it from it being a principle because it's very

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hard to quantify and so i'm intrigued the well i mean there's probably so many different ways i'd

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like to take this but how you described um your journey thus far is is permaculture was something

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you came across before bitcoin and bitcoin has been incorporated into those concepts so so let's

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initially start with this then this idea of non-extraction did you used to consider that

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third ethic as non-extraction or was there a problem or pain point you came across when

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aiming for this permaculture future that meant that you kind of got it wrong and you were actually

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chipping away at that capital not necessarily i just i i didn't agree with this i i just never

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really understood that the the terminology of fair share never really spoke to me because it

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was very hard for me to understand like yeah if i if i produce extra lamb and i have it in my

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freezer does that does that mean um i've got a surplus and therefore i should distribute it to

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my community for free. These kinds of ideas just didn't really make sense to me. And so I just kind

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of let that stew in the background over, I mean, I've been practicing permaculture since like,

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well, I started studying it in about 2011, 2012. And I really put it into use in 2015 when I got

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the homestead here. And so really, I've been practicing, actively practicing permaculture for

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10 years. And so over the course of those 10 years, I've started to, that's basically where

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this change came from is like, I don't see it as a fair share. It's hard to define that. It's hard

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for me to understand it. Eventually this realization of, oh, I just have to make sure that I'm not

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extracting from my systems. And that's how I maintain the savings. Obviously, if you're extracting,

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like you said, you're not saving, you're not building capital. You're basically taking from

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somewhere else to subsidize the production and success of your system that you're working with.

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Okay. And something that resonated when I was listening to you on some other episodes,

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like I mentioned, was this idea of like, how can you blend two forms of capital at the same time?

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And you were talking about how you've learned certain techniques on the homestead, where you're

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actually, you're looking to constantly develop a state of symbiosis by which two forms of capital

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are actually growing together.

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Teach me a bit more about how that works.

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Well, so there's this concept of capital building

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and permaculture has been broken down into nine forms.

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And this is something that I've changed.

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Actually, I was taught that it's the eight forms of capital.

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But as I've been practicing this framework

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and thinking about it more,

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I've added a ninth form, which we can get to.

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But it really all comes down to

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the expenditure of your time because that's the that's the currency essentially that you're using

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to build any form of capital right and time is something that is a flow it's not when people

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talk about saving time you can't actually save any time you can only spend it more efficiently

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and so even when you're sleeping you're spending time so if you can find a way with one unit of

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expenditure of your time to build more than one form of capital at once now you're uh you're

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maximizing the efficiency and expenditure of your time. And so I can break down these nine

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forms real quick. And I kind of have it separated now. Now that there's nine forms, it really becomes

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easy to break the nine forms into three, what I call super forms of capital. So you've got your

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physical capital, and that would be your money, your financial capital, material capital, and

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natural capital. Then it goes into the second super form, which is your personal capital,

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the stuff that's relating to yourself as an individual.

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That's where the intellectual capital, the experiential capital comes in.

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And this is the ninth form that I've added, which I call vital capital,

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which is your mental health and your physical well-being.

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After the personal capital and the physical capital,

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now you've got relational capital,

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which is how you're utilizing the relationships that you have,

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your interactions with the world and the idea around the world.

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So that's social capital, cultural capital, and then spiritual capital.

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What are your ideals? What's your life's purpose? That sort of thing. And so when you're spending your time, basically, you're trying to find ways to build as many of these nine forms of capital at once. And this creates one good diversity or what's the when you rebalance your portfolio, right? You've got this reallocation.

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Yeah, a good spread of a web of different forms of capital to lean on. And so then you can start to liquidate one form of capital for another and rebalance to get this nice, resilient base of capital, which that creates when, like I said, when society and problems and issues happen, instead of just relying on financial capital to buy you out of the situation, you might already have the capital that you need that will ease you through that hard time.

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in advance so you might be able to for example draw down on some spiritual capital so you might

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be in a moment of severe grief or a a relationship is broken down and you've already got stored

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capital in the spiritual sense that you can actually use at that time or equally and i'm

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just trying to kind of brainstorm some concepts like you you need a skill you don't have it you

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don't necessarily want to use financial capital to attain it but your network is so developed that

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you're like actually i know a guy that i can go to who's got the exact skill i need to do this

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and i can get the job done faster in exchange for maybe a different form of capital your own time

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or some something else okay and maybe you've already got a favor built up with this person

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where they're happy to accommodate right and that's that's where you the social capital would

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come in. I mean, an example of this would be that at least I see in one of my motivations for content

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creation is you're putting stuff out there without necessarily being paid, but people get value from

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it. So one of the, in a sense, bets that I'm making is that by putting out interesting information on

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a regular basis that people enjoy, you're actually building a form of relationship capital without

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asking for anything. And so if I suddenly was to ask for something, I might well see lots of people

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come back and say, I can help you do this, I can help you do that. It's worth testing in some ways.

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But in your case, Rev, how does that actually convey into, like, do you have any stories of

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specific moments when you've actually kind of put that concept into practice?

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Well, if we want to talk about it through the lens of Bitcoin, my favorite example is a Bitcoin

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meetup. Yep. A lot of people, when they think about a Bitcoin meetup, it's just a, you might

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be going to a bar or a restaurant or a coffee shop and with the goal of just meeting other

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Bitcoiners talking about Bitcoin. And so when you show up to this meetup, you're spending your time

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and maybe you're building some social capital and maybe some intellectual capital around Bitcoin.

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But as I've gone to and I go to I use Bitcoin meetups as a way to access the Bitcoin market, right, as a as an economy.

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So when I go when I started going to a meetup, the meetups, that was my initial experience.

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All right, cool. I get to meet some people, meet other Bitcoiners locally, talk about Bitcoin.

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And now I've got these relationships that I have access to.

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But then I started to think, well, I've heard that, you know, earning Bitcoin is one of the best ways to acquire it.

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And especially because you're earning KYC free Bitcoin.

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And so I thought to myself, well, I've got some extra maple syrup.

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I produce maple syrup here at the homestead.

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Why not at the next meetup, I'll bring some jars of syrup and see if anyone wants to buy them, pay in Bitcoin.

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I brought the syrup and sure enough, I sold out all the syrup.

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And I was like, hmm, that's interesting.

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This is pretty cool.

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And the people there were like kind of surprised too.

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Like, wait a second.

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This guy's got something I can.

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And a lot of times when I bring these items to the meetups, this is someone's first opportunity to actually spend their Bitcoin on a good.

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I've had similar scenarios, yeah.

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And so there was some excitement around this, like, whoa, this is cool.

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And it became, obviously, I use Lightning primarily when I'm doing these transactions just because of the convenience.

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And it's better for a lot of reasons when you're just selling something for $10.

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But so as we've all heard, you know, a lot of times, especially this was several years ago when I started doing this, there's issues when it comes to transacting and lightning.

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Transactions fail, all kinds of who knows what things come up.

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And so now we actually getting some experience spending our Bitcoin because we having to troubleshoot how to actually make this transaction work And so that might lead to different kinds of solutions right instead of showing up with just one Lightning wallet now I make sure that I got a couple of different options in order to not miss out on a sale because my particular lightning wallet isn jiving with

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whatever that person's got to send me the Bitcoin. So now we're building experience by spending our

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Bitcoin. So now we're building social capital. We're building intellectual capital, talking about

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Bitcoin, and we're building experiential capital by spending the Bitcoin. And I'm now starting to

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build financial capital by selling the stuff. And people started to see like, whoa, if this guy's

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showing up with something to sell, maybe I've got something. And now at like the Southwest Michigan

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meetup, which is the closest meetup to where I live, I can buy honey, coffee, pork, beef, yogurt,

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a lot of different food staples to where I'm actually kind of making a grocery trip

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at the same time as I'm selling some of my stuff. So now we're building this little mini

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circular economy. So I'm leaving not only with financial capital, but some material capital.

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Maybe I bought several Bitcoin miners through these meetups and then also some natural capital.

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And a lot of times when I talk about natural capital, natural capital is essentially your

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ability to produce food or food. And so you can start to see through one evening of going to this

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Bitcoin meetup, I'm stacking all of these different forms of capital at once.

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it's very interesting isn't it my example of this is on the receiving end of that i went to a

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a meetup so i'm originally from the uk rev but now live in australia and dove down the rabbit

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hole having owned bitcoin for a long time 2020 all the warning signs going off like what the

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hell is going on out there and as an investor i'm always looking for opportunities and it's like hang

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on there's a company that put bitcoin on the balance sheet i've owned it for five years best

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investment i've ever made hang on this is a big deal i've got to got to get close to this thing

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wow the last five years has changed my life but as part of the process going to physical meetups

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was very important because as a extrovert i was already online kind of talking about shit and

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suddenly it just became very bitcoin focused at the time it was twitter it's like my god what's

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all this stuff going on and I went to one called the Bitcoin Bush Bash which is it's like a

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geographically mobile meetup so they do one in most of the different states of Australia once a

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year and this particular one was Victoria about four hours drive from Melbourne where I was living

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at the time and I went there and there was a guy who'd brought his espresso machine and he was

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pumping out espressos in the morning and i went and paid him in bitcoin and you're like oh my god

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that was the coolest thing ever because yes you can go through the process like i had of like

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all right if i'm going to actually reallocate in a size that that you know actually is like if this

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goes wrong you've really fucked up your inheritance so first i had to figure out multi-sig i had to

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figure out using something like unchained capital i had to figure out well what's the inheritance

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plan you get hit by a bus tomorrow you don't want your bitcoin sitting on a fucking iphone

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because your kids aren't going to get it so i had to put all that in place and ultimately

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the the conference experience or the meetup experience is a crucial part of the puzzle

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because you're not just shouting people online it was like oh my god a you can just use this stuff

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b here's all of these other people that have asked the same set of questions from extremely different

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backgrounds and ended up at the similar conclusion and then you're having a you know a beer with them

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in the middle of outback australia like what what the fuck how did i end up here um but that coffee

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moment was a really important one so what you just described resonates very strongly i have yet to

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create a product and taken that to a meetup so that's another step that you know one might evolve

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to um so so have other people seen what you were doing and reacted to that in your meetup community

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Was it always the case that you could basically do a groceries run when you first took maple syrup?

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Or has that developed since?

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Well, yeah, I think that, well, and first of all, this meetup in southwest Michigan was very new.

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When I started to attend it, I maybe missed the first several, but it was like at the very beginning of it.

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So there wasn't much time for these things to have developed on their own before I started doing it anyways.

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But it's kind of like the discovery of fire, you know?

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like where it's just a good idea, just time has come.

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And so people figure this out simultaneously

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kind of at different meetups at the similar time.

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Because there was a, basically there was a meetup

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in Southwest Michigan.

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And then there was shortly after that a meetup

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in Grand Rapids, Michigan,

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which is about an hour and a half from that one

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in Southwest Michigan.

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And about the same time, somebody started to bring eggs

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and honey and things like that to that meetup to sell.

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and so it was just kind of this very beginning stages of it and just sort of propped up naturally

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because if you're trying to earn bitcoin the best place to earn bitcoin is where the bitcoiners are

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at right if you show up to a place with a bunch of bitcoiners your chances of earning bitcoin are

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much much higher than just kind of shouting out into the void and just putting a sign at the end

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of your road at your farm stand saying i accept bitcoin and fishing for the bitcoiners right um

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and so it just sort of slowly progressed where eventually so the the second guide uh to to start

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bringing stuff was actually the Daniel who runs the Southwest Michigan meetup with DK. He started,

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he didn't necessarily have anything that he was producing, but he had access to this creamery

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that was close to his place. And, you know, we, I was like very interested in getting this high

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quality yogurt. And so he kind of got the idea, well, I can spend my fiat, buy the yogurt, bring

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it to the meetup, sell the yogurt, give market access to this yogurt, to the Bitcoiners.

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And now I'm basically DCA-ing my fiat through yogurt into KYC-free Bitcoin and then providing this product that I want every month.

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I would love to pick up yogurt.

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And granted, aside, I started milking sheep and I produce my own yogurt now.

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But for a long time, I was buying all my yogurt through the Bitcoin meetup.

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And so you don't necessarily have to be producing something per se to attend the meetup and start earning Bitcoin.

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You just have to know what that meetup in particular, what kind of products that those people want and then provide market access to it.

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You can spend your fee out on that and bring it to the meetup and then turn that product into Bitcoin.

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And this is a way to basically buy Bitcoin with your dollars through selling a good.

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Wow. And it's this, how do I even describe it?

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we're so unbelievably early on Bitcoin still,

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even though one might feel like it's been a big part of their life

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for half a decade now or more even.

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But when I hear how you're talking,

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it just reminds me of how effectively it is a bottom-up viral adoption

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simply through people.

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So how bullish are you, Rev, on the future?

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And how long is this going to take to play out, do you think?

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because it seems clear to me that this blend of sound money

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and savings technology in the digital world,

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it overlays with the physical operation that you're creating

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in a magical way.

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So that's just one example,

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or equally like where I came from,

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if you get given this money,

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what the fuck are you going to do with it?

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Well, actually, this thing called Bitcoin

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kind of solves all your problems.

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Where are we in the adoption curve, do you reckon?

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And because it's so varied, isn't it?

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Well, in this kind of, you know, there's this meme of hyper Bitcoinization, merchant adoption, these kinds of ideas.

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Oh, why have why can't I just go everywhere and spend my Bitcoin?

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And granted, with this new Square implementation, it seems like that's more the case.

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But this was something that I didn't necessarily touch on with that initial story about how many forms of capital you can stack at a Bitcoin meetup.

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Cultural capital is a huge component of this.

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because now that we're starting to transact with each other

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and we're starting to find out, you know, all of the different,

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like what lightning wallets work for us, right?

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00:29:27,780 --> 00:29:31,180
Now we just, when a new guy shows up and he's like, what should I use?

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It's like, well, we're all using this lightning wallet.

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It works great for us, you know?

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And so we're developing our very own subculture

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within the broader Bitcoin culture.

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And so as far as adoption is concerned,

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It's like the most important thing is the adoption that you create in your own life, in your local.

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Like if you want more utility out of your Bitcoin, you just have to go and find the Bitcoiners that are around you and create the opportunities for you to get you to utilize your Bitcoin.

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Another example is like there's a corner store down the road from me.

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Woman died. She was making a lot of food in there.

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And then some young couple bought the store and sort of took it over and started carrying all of her recipes for it and everything.

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And so I just liked those people more.

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As I was going into the store, they were kind of my age and everything.

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And so I started talking to them, building a relationship.

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And every time I'd go in there, I'm like, well, you guys, you could figure this out.

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You want to start accepting my Bitcoin for when I go and buy beer or smokes or whatever?

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And they're like, yeah, yeah, well, we haven't really quite figured this out yet.

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And how I cracked it was that I found out that they like lamb and I produce lamb.

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And so I was like, well, hey, do you guys want to buy a lamb?

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and they're like, oh yeah, that'd be great.

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And then they actually made the offer

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of trading me store credit for this lamb.

355
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Very interesting.

356
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And so they had a tab.

357
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It's like a quasi money itself, right?

358
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Yeah, this is another way of like basically taking

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that natural capital that I had

360
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and liquidating it for a different form

361
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through this corner store, right?

362
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And so they had this little piece of paper

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with how much money was left on my credit.

364
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And every time I'd make a transaction there,

365
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they'd cross out the thing, write the new total.

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And then they take cash out of their pocket and put it in the till. So their books were kept, you know, were in order at the end of the day. And so once I ran out of that store credit, I was like, OK, so now we can do the Bitcoin, right? Because it's the exact same thing. You just take your phone out. I pay you for the good or service right to your own personal Bitcoin wallet on your phone. Then you take cash out of your pocket, put it in the register. And you're like, oh, wow, yeah, this is cool.

367
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and so now I get to go to this corner store, spend my Bitcoin, buy all my beer, whatever I want there

368
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with my Bitcoin and this is a, I didn't have to wait for anybody to figure it out, I created it

369
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for myself and now I've got this utility for my Bitcoin that I didn't have before.

370
00:31:51,420 --> 00:31:58,040
Really cool and you touched on the Square features that have been launched recently and they've made a

371
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big splash in the Bitcoin world, you know, we're all pumped, there's all these merchants that are

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now I'm going to be able to use Bitcoin.

373
00:32:05,860 --> 00:32:09,300
And I've had two interesting scenarios in my life recently

374
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that chime with what you're talking about,

375
00:32:11,780 --> 00:32:15,040
which is a cafe local to where I live and a butcher.

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And the cafe owner has a square terminal

377
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and is flat out busy,

378
00:32:22,220 --> 00:32:27,140
is long altcoins thinking that they're going to go faster than Bitcoin.

379
00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:29,320
So it hasn't quite got to the like,

380
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:30,860
I just want to buy this stuff, Bitcoin.

381
00:32:30,860 --> 00:32:34,780
and quite simply was like keen on having it there.

382
00:32:34,860 --> 00:32:36,1000
I was like, you could have your little get Bitcoin sign here,

383
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but just super busy and not really that interested.

384
00:32:41,020 --> 00:32:41,860
And you're like, fair enough.

385
00:32:41,980 --> 00:32:43,200
I'm not going to chase that.

386
00:32:43,940 --> 00:32:47,940
And the second situation was a farm

387
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with a kind of farm shop and butcher's business,

388
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which already is accepting Bitcoin,

389
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is a sponsor of the local Bitcoin meetup

390
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and is into it themselves.

391
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,320
and they are a primary producers, right?

392
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They're literally, they're shifting meat,

393
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whether it's, you know, chicken, lamb, beef.

394
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And one of the concerns they had,

395
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which was really interesting about using a Square terminal,

396
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,280
it's like, if I use Square for Bitcoin,

397
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am I going to get flagged in some database somewhere,

398
00:33:19,220 --> 00:33:22,300
which is going to kind of give me, give me away?

399
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,180
I'd actually much prefer you just to send me Bitcoin

400
00:33:25,180 --> 00:33:26,260
to my wallet of Satoshi

401
00:33:26,260 --> 00:33:29,600
and not even put it through that thing.

402
00:33:30,300 --> 00:33:33,200
And that was a really valid concern

403
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:34,980
because on top of,

404
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:36,520
they're already taking risk, right?

405
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,760
They're not necessarily vaccinating the cows.

406
00:33:39,020 --> 00:33:41,860
They're already doing things that they're not told.

407
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:42,840
You know what I mean?

408
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:44,420
They're like, no, I don't want to do that.

409
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This is my farm.

410
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This is my output.

411
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I'm going to do it my way.

412
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:48,520
And they've got a brilliant

413
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,860
organic regenerative beef business

414
00:33:50,860 --> 00:33:53,160
that people love buying from

415
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:54,840
because it's excellent quality product.

416
00:33:54,840 --> 00:34:00,880
but equally it's like fight your battles where you can and maybe implementing that feature is

417
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:06,720
not the best idea and i don't know whether that is the case but um it was a really interesting

418
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:12,280
piece of feedback from the market not from some bitcoin news outlet that's telling you that you

419
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,820
know everything's going to go to the moon everyone's going to use bitcoin because of

420
00:34:14,820 --> 00:34:21,540
square's feature implementation but like what does it mean if i do it this way um which i thought was

421
00:34:21,540 --> 00:34:25,800
really interesting like have you got other people locally that have actually started using it or

422
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:32,760
any other like does that resonate at all well i think it's a good um like it's a good path there

423
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:39,540
right when you're trying to orange pill somebody you don't start with like all right so you have

424
00:34:39,540 --> 00:34:43,940
to learn about this thing called kyc and you have to start thinking about your privacy and you have

425
00:34:43,940 --> 00:34:49,320
to you know it's way too overwhelming right you just get set up with generally i set people up

426
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:54,860
on Cash App. All right, it's KYC. But it's better, in my opinion, for people to start interacting

427
00:34:54,860 --> 00:35:00,460
with Bitcoin and having some Bitcoin, even if it's KYC Bitcoin. And that gives them the opportunity

428
00:35:00,460 --> 00:35:06,920
to go further down the path and get rid of that KYC stuff. Personally, I think that KYC is the

429
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:12,140
biggest threat to Bitcoin of anything that we've got going on right now. To participate knowingly

430
00:35:12,140 --> 00:35:15,999
in the KYC ecosystem is unethical, right?

431
00:35:16,499 --> 00:35:19,920
Anyways, so there's a couple things going on here

432
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,720
when it comes to the Square thing.

433
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,019
And this is a heuristic that I've recently started

434
00:35:25,019 --> 00:35:26,979
to kind of try and live by.

435
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,640
And that's, I try and prioritize spending Bitcoin

436
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,120
with people that I have the highest probability

437
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:33,700
of earning that Bitcoin back from.

438
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,380
And so like in the example of this corner store,

439
00:35:36,999 --> 00:35:39,440
they need eggs and I produce eggs.

440
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,019
And so I started bringing them eggs.

441
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:41,920
And guess what?

442
00:35:42,140 --> 00:35:44,560
Now the dude buys the eggs from me with Bitcoin.

443
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,540
He just takes the Bitcoin, sends it back to me from his wallet.

444
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,580
And now I've got like a little miniature circular thing going on.

445
00:35:50,620 --> 00:35:54,260
And this was a kind of a cool experiment because the price just happened to be going up when

446
00:35:54,260 --> 00:35:54,979
we started this.

447
00:35:55,580 --> 00:35:59,360
And so I'm like, dude, watch every time I'm going to go buy beer and then I'm going to

448
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,700
bring eggs and you're going to buy the eggs from me and you're going to have more Bitcoin

449
00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:04,100
left in your wallet over time.

450
00:36:04,479 --> 00:36:08,620
And this is going to show you that this is a superior form of savings in addition to this

451
00:36:08,620 --> 00:36:09,600
utility that we have.

452
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:24,180
The other thing, the white paper calls Bitcoin peer-to-peer electronic cash, right? So the cash-based nature of it when you're interacting peer-to-peer resonates a lot more with people that want to run these cash businesses.

453
00:36:24,180 --> 00:36:33,460
um and so yeah that's why the square thing doesn't necessarily um like the store the people that are

454
00:36:33,460 --> 00:36:39,440
using square are not typically running a cash-based business so it doesn't really um there's not much

455
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,660
of an incentive for them to switch if they don't already understand bitcoin yeah it's a great point

456
00:36:43,660 --> 00:36:47,979
isn't it so actually they're they're they're maybe even a cashless business right you often

457
00:36:47,979 --> 00:36:54,400
I'll often go to a cafe and be like no cash and so they've they've already kind of yes but then

458
00:36:54,400 --> 00:37:02,460
that's where it's like ah like privacy is a big deal and arguably like the longer you go along

459
00:37:02,460 --> 00:37:06,120
this journey the more of a big deal it becomes and it's something that I've started thinking

460
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:12,400
about a lot more um now my lens again to touch on is like if you're managing wealth from a

461
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:19,360
TradFi perspective, it's like you own real estate, some equities, some bonds, all of them are normally

462
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:27,019
purchased through some kind of intermediary. And it's KYC to hell, right? That's what it is.

463
00:37:27,620 --> 00:37:35,360
And so even moving into Bitcoin, but with KYC, you still have self-custody. And that is a superpower

464
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:42,180
over and above all the other illiquidity issues, counterparty issues, credit issues that you might

465
00:37:42,180 --> 00:37:47,140
find in the trap five space so it's it's a vast improvement but it's still like you want to sell

466
00:37:47,140 --> 00:37:51,600
all your other shit and buy bitcoin but you're not going to be able to do that in a non-kyc fashion

467
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:57,680
you have to be using the rails that they're kind of funneling you into bitcoin with via registered

468
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:04,200
exchanges and you've got to share driving license and all this different stuff um what fascinated me

469
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:10,720
about a book that i read um renaissance money so andrew bailey shout out to andrew who'd been on

470
00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:18,200
the podcast before and I learned for the first time about the idea of backwards privacy and

471
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:24,019
forwards privacy when it comes to the use of physical cash so if you pay me ten dollars I

472
00:38:24,019 --> 00:38:29,680
don't know where that ten dollars has been and if I pay someone ten dollars I don't know where it's

473
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,999
going so that's like backward privacy forwards privacy and in the white paper very clear peer

474
00:38:34,999 --> 00:38:36,380
It appeared digital cash.

475
00:38:36,860 --> 00:38:38,640
But here we are 15 years later.

476
00:38:39,220 --> 00:38:46,979
And because of the way that the on-ramp to Bitcoin is so heavily policed by the existing status quo, most Bitcoin is KYC.

477
00:38:47,660 --> 00:38:50,080
And I don't know what the breakdown actually is.

478
00:38:51,660 --> 00:39:00,220
But if you're smart enough, and this is where a lot of this on-chain stuff gets a bit more sketchy, they're able to actually follow exactly what you're doing.

479
00:39:00,220 --> 00:39:20,640
So you don't have the privacy in Bitcoin that was initially, I don't think Satoshi envisaged that, put it that way. How do you get around that, Rev, in terms of your processes that you might put in place or the people that you've met, if that makes sense?

480
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:29,840
so yeah that i wouldn't say that most the most of the bitcoin is kyc but it's very difficult to

481
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:36,420
get started interacting with bitcoin without starting at the kyc point right okay it's just

482
00:39:36,420 --> 00:39:44,479
the most i guess uh accommodating it's it's the least friction way to to get started

483
00:39:44,479 --> 00:39:49,680
absolutely i agree with that and so that's why a lot of people start that way and it's just

484
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:55,540
once you're kind of you're like well i've already kyc'd and i don't really see any downside to

485
00:39:55,540 --> 00:40:00,400
continuing to participate in this way it becomes hard to like wean yourself off of it

486
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:05,280
because you're ultimately making a lot of times you're paying a premium if you're buying bitcoin

487
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:12,999
with dollars uh no no kyc there's a lot more friction involved and um so it's it's hard for

488
00:40:12,999 --> 00:40:20,880
people to make that jump. But like you said, as time goes on, you start to think about the

489
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:25,720
long-term effects. Like, all right, so I've got every time I withdraw from this exchange,

490
00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:29,860
and like, dude, the best examples are like these wrench attacks. And granted,

491
00:40:29,959 --> 00:40:34,640
these are people that have like millions of dollars, right, of crypto and Bitcoin.

492
00:40:35,300 --> 00:40:41,420
But a lot of times how they get targeted is because the attacker finds that they've withdrawn

493
00:40:41,420 --> 00:40:45,560
to this address. They can see that the Bitcoin's there on the address hasn't moved. And so it's

494
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,880
like a pretty sure bet. Like, all right, I got your, I got your name, I got your address,

495
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,860
and I can see that you're in your wallet. You've withdrawn this Bitcoin from the exchange and it's

496
00:40:52,860 --> 00:40:57,620
still sitting there and your keys can protect you to a certain point. But as once they start

497
00:40:57,620 --> 00:41:01,920
chopping off the fingers, right, uh, you're going to go and be like, all right, I got multi-sig,

498
00:41:01,979 --> 00:41:05,580
but I'm going to stop cutting my fingers off. I'm going to go and get all these keys together

499
00:41:05,580 --> 00:41:10,519
and sign and just get the fuck out of my hair. And so the best way to protect yourself is to not

500
00:41:10,519 --> 00:41:16,280
have people have visibility into your addresses at all right and this is where the the no kyc

501
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:23,360
stuff comes in and it's um it's a much longer term play uh being uh aware of this privacy but

502
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:29,100
it's uh it's one of those things where you don't think about in 10 years if this is going to be a

503
00:41:29,100 --> 00:41:37,499
problem for me or not right now yeah you're dealing with other lower level problems you know

504
00:41:37,499 --> 00:41:38,700
It's like inflation.

505
00:41:38,700 --> 00:41:40,100
Inflation is a fucking problem.

506
00:41:40,100 --> 00:41:41,320
Okay, well, how do I get out of that?

507
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:42,160
Well, Bitcoin.

508
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:43,160
Okay, well, how do I buy Bitcoin?

509
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:44,380
Well, this is how you do it.

510
00:41:44,380 --> 00:41:45,660
And boom, you do it, but you're right.

511
00:41:45,660 --> 00:41:49,700
In 10 years time, there is no top, right?

512
00:41:49,700 --> 00:42:04,699
The Bitcoin price you know interestingly we had whatever it been about 45 50 days of coming down coming down coming down everyone freaking out about like oh my god it going to zero type thing and admittedly like i feeling

513
00:42:04,699 --> 00:42:08,879
the heat too you know when your net wealth takes a bit of a tumble all those like optimistic

514
00:42:08,879 --> 00:42:13,879
decisions you were making i took a bit of leverage to buy a piece of real estate which i've got to

515
00:42:13,879 --> 00:42:18,819
refinance in two years time you're like well i thought 23 months was ages to think about that

516
00:42:18,819 --> 00:42:25,919
But now I'm like, oh, shit, I should probably start putting in a place to think about, like, what's my plan for two years time.

517
00:42:27,059 --> 00:42:29,319
So it's funny how the sentiment shifts.

518
00:42:29,759 --> 00:42:33,539
But a decade is a much harder viewpoint to kind of calculate around.

519
00:42:34,519 --> 00:42:44,319
And so, I mean, even I'm wondering, how does someone get hold of your name, address, and Bitcoin wallet?

520
00:42:45,419 --> 00:42:47,259
That attack vector that you mentioned.

521
00:42:47,259 --> 00:42:56,299
So they've basically led you or someone gets hacked again, and there's your email address, and there's your physical address that you got the hardware wallet sent to.

522
00:42:56,999 --> 00:43:00,199
And then somehow they're able to get hold of an exchange that you used.

523
00:43:00,979 --> 00:43:02,839
And how would they even do that?

524
00:43:03,759 --> 00:43:07,099
Well, so you could think about it like, all right, you get SIM swapped.

525
00:43:08,219 --> 00:43:12,179
Maybe you don't hold your Bitcoin on the exchange, but now they can log into the exchange.

526
00:43:12,399 --> 00:43:14,219
They can see your addresses that you've been drawn to.

527
00:43:14,299 --> 00:43:15,259
They can see all that history.

528
00:43:15,259 --> 00:43:21,059
um and there you go now you've got all the information you need to go and find the person

529
00:43:21,059 --> 00:43:27,619
and get the get the stuff yeah and that stuff is just there waiting to be found someday and 10 years

530
00:43:27,619 --> 00:43:31,819
from now you don't really know like all right the exchange goes out of business or something where

531
00:43:31,819 --> 00:43:36,559
are those records destroyed who has access what do they do with them yeah yeah and it actually

532
00:43:36,559 --> 00:43:43,019
makes me think about um an angle to more recent kind of rabbit hole i'm diving down which is

533
00:43:43,019 --> 00:43:49,779
NOSTA and a situation in which it's like okay I've fired up a couple of different NOSTA key pairs

534
00:43:49,779 --> 00:43:56,739
and ended up using predominantly one and now two years has gone by and you've got all of this kind

535
00:43:56,739 --> 00:44:02,399
of proof of work supposedly connected to your different key pairs but I also signed up with a

536
00:44:02,399 --> 00:44:07,439
bunch of clients when it had no value attached to the key pair I couldn't even remember the names of

537
00:44:07,439 --> 00:44:13,039
some of those clients two years ago and I posted about this relatively recently and the conclusion

538
00:44:13,039 --> 00:44:21,439
was it's it's extremely unprobable or unlikely that those key pairs you shared will cause you

539
00:44:21,439 --> 00:44:27,559
any headache in the future so just crack on with what you're doing and see what happens um but it

540
00:44:27,559 --> 00:44:31,579
is something to be wary of right it's like okay you're logging into all these different clients

541
00:44:31,579 --> 00:44:37,039
some of them disappear after a couple of weeks you're receiving sats online most importantly

542
00:44:37,039 --> 00:44:44,399
you're building a digital identity that's yours, that's capital. I don't want the threat of my

543
00:44:44,399 --> 00:44:50,279
capital being taken away from me if I was to lose my NOSTA keypad. So I know that you're active on

544
00:44:50,279 --> 00:44:54,919
NOSTA as well. How did you end up getting into that? And what's your view on NOSTA today? Because

545
00:44:54,919 --> 00:45:00,939
it's something that I'm really leaning into. Well, so I guess this comes down to, once again,

546
00:45:00,939 --> 00:45:07,219
the Bitcoin culture and sort of the pillars of any culture that I've kind of arrived at.

547
00:45:07,279 --> 00:45:12,039
And there's probably more, but basically it's money is a defining border of culture.

548
00:45:12,799 --> 00:45:15,579
Location is a defining border of culture.

549
00:45:15,819 --> 00:45:18,899
And your morals and ethics are a defining border of culture.

550
00:45:19,599 --> 00:45:23,839
And so Bitcoin, the Bitcoin culture is essentially a diaspora, right?

551
00:45:24,099 --> 00:45:25,339
Like we're all spread out.

552
00:45:25,499 --> 00:45:26,119
It's very hard.

553
00:45:26,199 --> 00:45:29,839
Like there's a lot of Bitcoiners out there, but we're not really concentrated in too many

554
00:45:29,839 --> 00:45:37,859
places to build these effective economies. And so Noster is like a place. It's a location in which

555
00:45:37,859 --> 00:45:44,919
Bitcoiners can go to start to build more cultural capital because it's not like Twitter where you

556
00:45:44,919 --> 00:45:51,099
can be shadow banned or you can have your account suddenly removed and it's harder to spin up new

557
00:45:51,099 --> 00:45:56,679
identities and all of this stuff. And so I think that Noster is like an incredible, it's the

558
00:45:56,679 --> 00:46:03,119
location where Bitcoiners can go to build cultural capital online in a digital way, where we can all

559
00:46:03,119 --> 00:46:08,599
come together there in this digital space to build cultural capital. And when it comes to like the

560
00:46:08,599 --> 00:46:13,159
rotating of keys, like, all right, if I, if my keys get leaked and something happens, we, we don't

561
00:46:13,159 --> 00:46:19,899
really have too many examples yet of the techniques or things that can be done in order to like

562
00:46:19,899 --> 00:46:26,019
basically recover that, what, what you built up, right? Your social graph and all this stuff.

563
00:46:26,679 --> 00:46:30,899
I was thinking about trying to like just test out rotating keys and,

564
00:46:30,899 --> 00:46:31,219
and,

565
00:46:31,219 --> 00:46:31,699
you know,

566
00:46:31,699 --> 00:46:32,059
saying like,

567
00:46:32,079 --> 00:46:32,259
all right,

568
00:46:32,299 --> 00:46:32,779
in three months,

569
00:46:32,799 --> 00:46:34,899
my keys are going to rotate to this and I'm going to like,

570
00:46:34,939 --> 00:46:36,099
stop using these keys.

571
00:46:36,099 --> 00:46:40,719
And you start following me over here and pay and do a post on both of them.

572
00:46:41,439 --> 00:46:42,299
But I haven't,

573
00:46:42,439 --> 00:46:45,639
I haven't taken that jump yet because that's just,

574
00:46:45,639 --> 00:46:46,899
I'm kind of waiting,

575
00:46:47,059 --> 00:46:47,359
you know,

576
00:46:47,359 --> 00:46:49,259
to see what somebody else does.

577
00:46:49,959 --> 00:46:53,799
When they're like some important person or somebody who's built up a lot of

578
00:46:53,799 --> 00:46:54,499
this,

579
00:46:54,599 --> 00:46:56,259
this capital in Noster.

580
00:46:56,259 --> 00:46:58,959
to see if their keys get leaked, what do they do,

581
00:46:59,019 --> 00:47:00,439
and how do they recover from that?

582
00:47:02,139 --> 00:47:03,939
Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking through it.

583
00:47:03,939 --> 00:47:11,059
Like, if you were to develop cultural capital

584
00:47:11,059 --> 00:47:13,939
through a NOSTA account or NOSTA key pair,

585
00:47:14,359 --> 00:47:17,259
that cultural capital is connected to you.

586
00:47:18,019 --> 00:47:20,359
The key pair is a representation of it.

587
00:47:20,939 --> 00:47:24,899
So if the key pair was to be compromised in some way,

588
00:47:24,899 --> 00:47:33,199
then if you were to spin up another one and share with you know the world on NOSTA that like my key

589
00:47:33,199 --> 00:47:38,519
pair has been compromised this is my new one if the cultural capital reserve is strong enough

590
00:47:38,519 --> 00:47:44,679
then you have to assume that a core group of people with other NOSTA accounts would switch

591
00:47:44,679 --> 00:47:51,859
to the new one and that web of trust which is a fascinating concept is transferable to whatever

592
00:47:51,859 --> 00:47:57,179
the new incarnation is. Now, I think about things like, you know, what does a media business look

593
00:47:57,179 --> 00:48:03,799
like with NOSTA at the center of it? And you're going to have people with information that's being

594
00:48:03,799 --> 00:48:11,119
shared as entertainment or as news or whatever it might be, video, short form text, long form

595
00:48:11,119 --> 00:48:16,559
articles, maybe even some kind of books. I don't quite know how it will work, but there'll be

596
00:48:16,559 --> 00:48:24,039
multiple revenue streams generating sats into some kind of probably holding wallet on the lightning

597
00:48:24,039 --> 00:48:29,419
network that then will be filtered through to somewhere else so that there's like a it would

598
00:48:29,419 --> 00:48:36,959
be kind of like having your your operations bank account hacked so the quicker you can kind of

599
00:48:36,959 --> 00:48:43,119
drain that and get it into whatever your longer term treasury account would be as a business the

600
00:48:43,119 --> 00:48:47,699
better or equally if it's just you as an individual then you'd want to do that um because

601
00:48:47,699 --> 00:48:53,379
whoever gets your key pair would have access to that lightning wallet to some extent um but maybe

602
00:48:53,379 --> 00:48:59,499
there's a way around that too they would just i mean okay if i were if i had access to someone's

603
00:48:59,499 --> 00:49:03,739
um noster key pair i would just switch the lightning wallet out with something that looks

604
00:49:03,739 --> 00:49:10,099
very similar and they would be zapping instead of me or instead of the the person whose keys yes

605
00:49:10,099 --> 00:49:14,519
you're receiving zaps from other people to your own lightning one they're not going to be able to

606
00:49:14,519 --> 00:49:17,959
take any of your bitcoin but they're just going to be able to for a short period of time until

607
00:49:17,959 --> 00:49:23,299
people realize it get whatever uh revenue you'd be earning through the zaps because i've recently

608
00:49:23,299 --> 00:49:27,799
been through the process which i must admit i found pretty painful but i think i've now done it

609
00:49:27,799 --> 00:49:34,179
of getting a albi hub set up and having some lightning channels for the first time that are

610
00:49:34,179 --> 00:49:42,279
essentially mine and previous to that i was using and i haven't fully done this as a podcast or as a

611
00:49:42,279 --> 00:49:49,099
nostra account but primal have a custodial wallet as part of their client and fountain you know if

612
00:49:49,099 --> 00:49:54,299
you're posting stuff on fountain have a custodial wallet and you can easily switch that out for a

613
00:49:54,299 --> 00:49:59,619
lightning address with with albi and so actually as you say that if someone got the key pair they

614
00:49:59,619 --> 00:50:04,939
could try and log in via fountain or log in via primal but actually if the if the wallet was

615
00:50:04,939 --> 00:50:11,279
self-custodial via albi then you're controlling it somewhere differently anyway so those custodial

616
00:50:11,279 --> 00:50:17,859
wallets would have no exposure if the key pair was compromised am i right in saying that yeah

617
00:50:17,859 --> 00:50:21,819
well that's a good point i i didn't think about it in regards of if you're using a client that

618
00:50:21,819 --> 00:50:29,359
has a a wallet that is controlled by the keys itself right this custodial wallet

619
00:50:29,359 --> 00:50:35,579
like but that's why nost is so cool isn't it the wallet now yeah that would be different bits off

620
00:50:35,579 --> 00:50:41,019
the shelf and putting them together in such a way that even if the key pair was compromised

621
00:50:41,019 --> 00:50:47,979
then you're protected on the back end basically um yeah cool and at this stage it's still very much

622
00:50:47,979 --> 00:50:54,599
like we're playing around with nostr it's extraordinarily valuable but like how do you

623
00:50:54,599 --> 00:50:59,919
make a real business with Nostra right now? I don't know necessarily. Is there enough people

624
00:50:59,919 --> 00:51:04,739
on it to actually create a full-time Nostra media business? I'm not sure. And that's what we're all

625
00:51:04,739 --> 00:51:10,079
testing and trying. But the fact that, as you quite rightly point out, it's become the meeting

626
00:51:10,079 --> 00:51:16,959
place for people who've adopted Bitcoin as sound money. That's already massive because there's not

627
00:51:16,959 --> 00:51:20,519
many people out there that have actually done that in a meaningful way. You know, 50% of assets,

628
00:51:20,519 --> 00:51:22,119
as Bitcoin in self-custody.

629
00:51:22,479 --> 00:51:24,119
I don't know how many people in the world

630
00:51:24,119 --> 00:51:25,959
have actually done that, but it's not very many.

631
00:51:26,639 --> 00:51:28,199
And therefore, a place to communicate

632
00:51:28,199 --> 00:51:32,919
and convene to do commerce is insanely valuable,

633
00:51:32,919 --> 00:51:34,339
but it's almost like a public good

634
00:51:34,339 --> 00:51:37,119
because it's a protocol, right?

635
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:39,159
It's actually quite communist in that sense.

636
00:51:39,319 --> 00:51:40,639
Like, here's the playground, guys,

637
00:51:41,099 --> 00:51:42,839
and you just got to look after it properly

638
00:51:42,839 --> 00:51:45,879
and you can build on it.

639
00:51:46,539 --> 00:51:47,299
Wow, cool.

640
00:51:48,479 --> 00:51:49,959
So, Rev, where I'd love to go now

641
00:51:49,959 --> 00:51:51,839
is more back to the homestead side of things.

642
00:51:52,459 --> 00:51:54,139
And equally a question I had around

643
00:51:54,139 --> 00:51:55,659
these different forms of capital,

644
00:51:56,059 --> 00:51:57,899
like does debt play into this?

645
00:51:58,279 --> 00:51:59,699
Are you able to take leverage

646
00:51:59,699 --> 00:52:01,399
and buy a piece of real estate

647
00:52:01,399 --> 00:52:03,299
and then do permaculture on top of it?

648
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:05,579
How does the permaculture ethics

649
00:52:05,579 --> 00:52:07,919
and forms of capital approach debt?

650
00:52:09,839 --> 00:52:13,119
So yeah, what I basically live by here,

651
00:52:13,899 --> 00:52:16,219
because fiat money is basically

652
00:52:16,219 --> 00:52:19,099
the most extractive system you can observe,

653
00:52:19,099 --> 00:52:26,999
today, right? Ethically, I'm trying to avoid my interactions with fiat as much as possible.

654
00:52:26,999 --> 00:52:33,019
But at the same time, don't hate the player, hate the game, right? So I still live in a fiat world,

655
00:52:33,259 --> 00:52:40,059
and I'm going to utilize the advantages that fiat has to my benefit whenever I can. And once again,

656
00:52:40,119 --> 00:52:44,679
this is a compromise in my ethics, but you have to make some trade-offs, right? It's hard to...

657
00:52:44,679 --> 00:52:50,299
to, yeah, anyways, if I tried to be perfect, I wouldn't get anywhere. It's just that the tooling

658
00:52:50,299 --> 00:52:57,079
is not set up to be Bitcoin only all the time. So I hold as little dollars for a short a period

659
00:52:57,079 --> 00:53:00,879
of time as possible, as much Bitcoin for as long a period of time as possible. And that's what I

660
00:53:00,879 --> 00:53:08,499
try and do. And so to accomplish that, debt can be a useful tool in order to hold the Bitcoin for

661
00:53:08,499 --> 00:53:15,219
as long as possible and not really play with real dollars, right? You're playing with imaginary

662
00:53:15,219 --> 00:53:23,719
dollars. And so it's funny. I tried to get a home equity line of credit. And because I'm so,

663
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:30,559
so much of my cashflow is Bitcoin based now. They basically said, I don't have enough income

664
00:53:30,559 --> 00:53:34,759
to qualify for this home equity line of credit. So I'm kind of stuck with you playing the credit

665
00:53:34,759 --> 00:53:44,419
card game um last winter uh so i heat i heat the house the homestead with bitcoin um and so you're

666
00:53:44,419 --> 00:53:50,319
essentially buying kyc free bitcoin through the expenditure of your electricity and paying the

667
00:53:50,319 --> 00:53:57,639
utility company the fiat and you're buying bitcoin with this this way right and so and yeah and

668
00:53:57,639 --> 00:54:04,419
you're getting the heat yeah and so um there was an opportunity for me to basically my my electricity

669
00:54:04,419 --> 00:54:08,399
bills are quite expensive in the wintertime versus the summertime because I'm really pumping

670
00:54:08,399 --> 00:54:16,179
up the hash rate. And so I basically did a balance transfer from one credit card to another and paid

671
00:54:16,179 --> 00:54:19,959
the utility company with my credit card balance transfer that over to another one. And now I've

672
00:54:19,959 --> 00:54:25,259
got 12 months. I just pay 4% up front. And I've got 12 months to see how the price plays out

673
00:54:25,259 --> 00:54:31,839
before I have to pay off that debt. And so I'm starting to pay that off now. And granted,

674
00:54:31,839 --> 00:54:36,619
you know i you know in hindsight it's 2020 i should have been paying it off over the summer

675
00:54:36,619 --> 00:54:40,739
um but i've still got some time maybe the price will go back up but either way i'm gonna i'm gonna

676
00:54:40,739 --> 00:54:46,859
win on that trade you know uh and so you can utilize debt to your advantage when you have

677
00:54:46,859 --> 00:54:52,719
bitcoin because you you're you're you're playing this opportunity cost game right you get to keep

678
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:58,979
the sats today um and wait to see if the purchasing power increases uh before you have to pay off

679
00:54:58,979 --> 00:55:06,079
whatever that expenditure that you had was. It's very interesting. The use case I'll explain to you,

680
00:55:06,159 --> 00:55:13,259
which I proceeded with is I sold real estate three years ago when I only had one child. And then

681
00:55:13,259 --> 00:55:17,899
three years later, I had three children moving from rental to rental, turned out to be much more

682
00:55:17,899 --> 00:55:23,199
difficult than I expected to rent a place where we wanted to be. And I was like, enough, we've got

683
00:55:23,199 --> 00:55:27,999
to get back into some real estate so I can have a family home for us. But it's like, if I'm going

684
00:55:27,999 --> 00:55:36,799
to do that real estate's the most not the most but is a a highly uh it's a very well-developed

685
00:55:36,799 --> 00:55:42,259
market with lots of options to leverage it's like if you're going to get back into real estate from

686
00:55:42,259 --> 00:55:46,099
a family home perspective you want to sell as little bitcoin as possible and take as much

687
00:55:46,099 --> 00:55:51,659
leverage as possible so okay well what kind of loan to value can i get um and again like yourself

688
00:55:51,659 --> 00:55:57,359
the bank didn't like me because my demonstrative affordability is very poor because i live of

689
00:55:57,359 --> 00:56:04,079
capital gains and capital gains are seen as one-off disposals rather than regular forms of

690
00:56:04,079 --> 00:56:10,059
income which they like to leverage against so the irony being is they prefer you to have a hundred

691
00:56:10,059 --> 00:56:16,059
thousand dollar a year income and give you a five hundred thousand dollar loan and be negative equity

692
00:56:16,059 --> 00:56:23,979
than have a balance sheet you know of whatever um that you might be sitting on and if you have no

693
00:56:23,979 --> 00:56:28,339
income they're like well i can't give you a loan and it's that's in a sense that the extraordinary

694
00:56:28,339 --> 00:56:33,579
extraction that you're referring to of the fiat system so that doesn't make sense i've got this

695
00:56:33,579 --> 00:56:38,899
value sitting right here i could pay you the loan tomorrow why don't you give me a loan and they're

696
00:56:38,899 --> 00:56:42,979
like no sorry i need to see you have an income otherwise my my calculator doesn't work you're

697
00:56:42,979 --> 00:56:49,579
like that's so backwards but the price at the time like my my net asset calculation

698
00:56:49,579 --> 00:56:56,459
even now like when i think back to august was 40 percent higher than what it is today

699
00:56:56,459 --> 00:57:02,399
and you're like ouch that's a big change now i have bought house during that process and taken

700
00:57:02,399 --> 00:57:07,299
leverage i had to do it through the private lending markets so it's only a two-year long

701
00:57:07,299 --> 00:57:12,079
duration and so in 22 months i've got to think about well actually i've got this quite big loan

702
00:57:12,079 --> 00:57:18,379
on this house now and you're like it's just so interesting isn't it you can you can get leverage

703
00:57:18,379 --> 00:57:24,079
but like it's not without its emotional roller coaster that goes with it and like you said i'm

704
00:57:24,079 --> 00:57:28,139
pretty confident that two years from now it's absolutely going to be a good trade because

705
00:57:28,139 --> 00:57:32,879
there's a whole load of bitcoin that i didn't have to sell in order to enter that position

706
00:57:32,879 --> 00:57:38,779
but right now the bitcoin price has come right off and you're like well if i have to repair it

707
00:57:38,779 --> 00:57:44,459
tomorrow i'm in i'm in a bit of problem um so yeah i guess like anyone listening like absolutely

708
00:57:44,459 --> 00:57:51,099
have a look at these different options but it doesn't come with a stress-free life um but i do

709
00:57:51,099 --> 00:57:56,579
think you know it's as you get more sophisticated and better educated and in particular asking the

710
00:57:56,579 --> 00:58:03,139
question what is money you you start to see the fiat system for what it is which is a debt-based

711
00:58:03,139 --> 00:58:10,699
credit system and it's a tool and if you're able to carry your debt then leverage is actually very

712
00:58:10,699 --> 00:58:18,219
helpful in certain scenarios so you can use it um i guess i'm just learning a quite serious

713
00:58:18,219 --> 00:58:23,959
lesson as to how to do that um so rev yeah does any of that resonate in terms of the feeling of

714
00:58:23,959 --> 00:58:29,319
like oh the price has come off damn it have i got this one wrong well and you know there's a couple

715
00:58:29,319 --> 00:58:38,739
ways i i have come to interact with the price right you learn really quick that your assumptions

716
00:58:38,739 --> 00:58:41,019
if you try and pay attention to what people are saying,

717
00:58:41,079 --> 00:58:42,119
oh, the price is going to do this.

718
00:58:42,159 --> 00:58:43,739
And by this time, the price is going to be here.

719
00:58:44,479 --> 00:58:46,279
Oh, we're going to have a crash soon.

720
00:58:47,039 --> 00:58:50,419
If you're trying to make your decisions based on this information,

721
00:58:51,079 --> 00:58:53,899
it's really easy to make a wrong choice.

722
00:58:54,679 --> 00:59:01,539
And it's funny because a lot of the advice is don't use your emotions.

723
00:59:02,099 --> 00:59:04,619
Use the information to make your decisions.

724
00:59:05,159 --> 00:59:06,739
And I've actually switched to the opposite.

725
00:59:06,739 --> 00:59:11,319
when I'm jumping up and down, if the price is ripping and I wake up in the morning, I'm jumping

726
00:59:11,319 --> 00:59:18,239
up and down, I'm having a beer at noon, you know, that's the time for me to spend the Bitcoin on

727
00:59:18,239 --> 00:59:23,379
some things that I've had my eye on. And going back to the eight forms of capital, it's not like

728
00:59:23,379 --> 00:59:29,639
I'm going to go and buy a Lambo, right? And just this frivolous thing, but it's time for me to

729
00:59:29,639 --> 00:59:40,059
upgrade my systems, maybe buy a RAM that has better genetics to give me more capital,

730
00:59:40,059 --> 00:59:45,079
right, to continue for my systems to flow better and work more for me.

731
00:59:46,819 --> 00:59:54,399
A good example of that, so I bought a car last December. This is a hybrid electric vehicle.

732
00:59:54,719 --> 00:59:59,159
I bought it with Bitcoin from another Bitcoiner, and this was the case. The price at that time was

733
00:59:59,159 --> 01:00:03,179
going, it seemed like it was really, I was happy about it. Right. I just felt good.

734
01:00:03,499 --> 01:00:07,419
And my wife was saying, well, we don't need a car. Why are you, why are you buying this car?

735
01:00:07,439 --> 01:00:10,559
And I'm like, well, I'm going to be going to all these Bitcoin meetups. This car is going to be

736
01:00:10,559 --> 01:00:14,559
really good on gas mileage. And, and we'll see if this plays out, how this plays out. Because

737
01:00:14,559 --> 01:00:20,159
if I spend the Bitcoin on the car now, I might be able to make up for the, like, basically now I'm,

738
01:00:20,159 --> 01:00:26,199
I'm making the trade that I'm going to make more in fuel savings than the opportunity costs of the

739
01:00:26,199 --> 01:00:33,619
price going up. And so Bitcoin has essentially been sideways this whole year. And that ended up

740
01:00:33,619 --> 01:00:38,859
being like a really good decision. And that was like a purely emotional kind of like, I mean,

741
01:00:38,859 --> 01:00:43,459
it wasn't purely emotional, but emotions was what drove me to like say, hey, I should, I should make

742
01:00:43,459 --> 01:00:48,539
a big purchase right now. Like the Bitcoin's ripping. I think it's time for me to fire off

743
01:00:48,539 --> 01:00:53,399
something that will be useful for us. And it turned out to be a really good choice. And there's

744
01:00:53,399 --> 01:00:58,379
another saying that I've got when it comes to price. And that's when the price goes up,

745
01:00:58,499 --> 01:01:03,639
you work faster, right? Because you're trying to keep up the sales that you can make today.

746
01:01:03,979 --> 01:01:08,359
The sooner you can make that sale, the sooner you get, you're getting full exposure and you're

747
01:01:08,359 --> 01:01:12,399
riding the price up. And when the price goes down, you work harder and you have to work harder

748
01:01:12,399 --> 01:01:16,639
because you have to convince people that now is the time to let go of their sats for your thing.

749
01:01:16,979 --> 01:01:21,119
But if you can stack when the price is down, now you're getting the most Bitcoin for your time.

750
01:01:21,119 --> 01:01:28,219
yeah so price goes up work faster price goes down work harder and it's funny it strikes me so when

751
01:01:28,219 --> 01:01:37,159
you when you talk about natural capital the ebb and flow of life is natural you know you don't

752
01:01:37,159 --> 01:01:45,399
wake up feeling fucking amazing every day and i think it's very difficult when bitcoin is this new

753
01:01:45,399 --> 01:01:54,379
thing right digital scarcity digital sound money a measuring stick for value that's better than

754
01:01:54,379 --> 01:02:00,459
anything that's ever come before it and so of course it's going to be a process of trial and

755
01:02:00,459 --> 01:02:06,939
error a process of finding product market fit a process of adoption but it doesn't mean that you

756
01:02:06,939 --> 01:02:13,599
know how it's going to feel but of course life itself is up and down and so everything we're

757
01:02:13,599 --> 01:02:19,899
talking through here it strikes me as it's it's very natural so i know natural capital you're

758
01:02:19,899 --> 01:02:26,519
referring more to like your livestock and things like this but um does bitcoin fit into that sense

759
01:02:26,519 --> 01:02:32,499
of like it just it fits in much better than fiat currency essentially to your to your forms of

760
01:02:32,499 --> 01:02:39,219
capital well i think that bitcoin is really the first natural digital system if that makes any

761
01:02:39,219 --> 01:02:46,599
sense. Yes. It much more follows closely the laws of nature than it does of any other digital thing.

762
01:02:47,679 --> 01:03:01,859
And so and people often complain about the volatility of Bitcoin making it hard And that why it so hard to be a hodler right Because you have to have the diamond hands and your conviction is constantly being tested But when you live this homesteading lifestyle like I do

763
01:03:02,199 --> 01:03:06,639
I mean, the volatility of nature is equally as bad,

764
01:03:06,679 --> 01:03:07,319
if not worse.

765
01:03:08,179 --> 01:03:10,279
There's things, you walk out the door every morning

766
01:03:10,279 --> 01:03:11,279
and you don't know what the fuck's

767
01:03:11,279 --> 01:03:12,319
going to be happening out there.

768
01:03:13,359 --> 01:03:15,539
Recently, a storm came through,

769
01:03:16,019 --> 01:03:18,059
a tree fell on the fence where I had my rams,

770
01:03:18,399 --> 01:03:19,219
the rams got out.

771
01:03:19,219 --> 01:03:24,019
and so i walk out in the morning with my coffee going to uh give the hay to my ewes the the female

772
01:03:24,019 --> 01:03:28,239
sheep and there's uh you know our dairy ram in there and he's breeding them and we didn't want

773
01:03:28,239 --> 01:03:32,099
him to be bred right now and so i'm like okay here we go gotta get this guy what happened

774
01:03:32,099 --> 01:03:36,739
get the ram out of there find the hole in the fence and i'm like wait a second our other ram's

775
01:03:36,739 --> 01:03:42,279
gone our prized ram like this uh katahdin hair sheep registered ram the most valuable sheep we

776
01:03:42,279 --> 01:03:48,059
have gone just totally disappeared and uh so i go we go spend time looking for him and everything

777
01:03:48,059 --> 01:03:53,579
um it's been a month haven't found the guy he got eaten by coyotes i don't yeah he's gone and so

778
01:03:53,579 --> 01:03:56,819
you know when you're working with with nature and this natural capital stuff

779
01:03:56,819 --> 01:04:03,199
the volatility is insane you you cannot the saying don't count your chickens before they hatch right

780
01:04:03,199 --> 01:04:07,919
you can you can have all these these eggs in the incubator and you're like oh man i'm gonna i have

781
01:04:07,919 --> 01:04:11,479
50 eggs in my incubator and i'm gonna have 50 chickens and then i'll be able to sell all the

782
01:04:11,479 --> 01:04:14,979
pullets for this much and i'm gonna be able to produce this much this many eggs and you make all

783
01:04:14,979 --> 01:04:18,659
these calculations based on these eggs in the incubator that haven't hatched yet. And then

784
01:04:18,659 --> 01:04:24,059
something happens and half the eggs don't hatch or you lose the whole batch. And if you made bets

785
01:04:24,059 --> 01:04:27,899
based on that, if you started to leverage up, you know, start to make deals in advance based on

786
01:04:27,899 --> 01:04:31,759
these chickens that you thought you were going to have, you're in big trouble. And so you start to

787
01:04:31,759 --> 01:04:37,039
learn to like, not like stay humble, stack sets, you know, you stay humble and just let nature play

788
01:04:37,039 --> 01:04:43,659
out and respond more than make your plans around it. And sorry, Rob, I wasn't expecting your story

789
01:04:43,659 --> 01:04:49,479
to end up with such a disaster that the the your lead ram just disappeared i'm sorry about that

790
01:04:49,479 --> 01:04:54,499
the the thing that got me giggling was like the comic concept of like walking out the front door

791
01:04:54,499 --> 01:05:00,379
and like oh my god anything can happen and and i was hoping for a happier end to that story i'm so

792
01:05:00,379 --> 01:05:07,299
sorry that that happened the the the process though so what i'd love to learn more what does

793
01:05:07,299 --> 01:05:13,419
a day look like when you're managing a homestead so what is your i mean obviously every day is

794
01:05:13,419 --> 01:05:17,779
going to be different. You're talking about the volatility of nature. But just walk me through,

795
01:05:18,019 --> 01:05:21,059
like, you know, what have you done today? And you wake up, you're like, okay, I've got all these

796
01:05:21,059 --> 01:05:26,959
tasks to achieve. How do you go through it? Well, I think it's, it's really, it's seasonal, right?

797
01:05:26,959 --> 01:05:35,699
So there's different, we've learned that you build your routine based around what season it is and

798
01:05:35,699 --> 01:05:42,759
what's going on. And so we've also learned that, you know, you can't suddenly have the routine

799
01:05:42,759 --> 01:05:48,119
ready to switch right at the change of the season. It's sort of like an, uh, a continuous ebb and

800
01:05:48,119 --> 01:05:53,459
flow one by the time you've finally gotten into the rhythm of one season, you're in that rhythm

801
01:05:53,459 --> 01:05:58,439
for a month and then it's starting to transition into the rhythm of the next season. And so we

802
01:05:58,439 --> 01:06:03,139
could take like, I mean, I made some videos on Noster over the summertime, uh, of like a day in

803
01:06:03,139 --> 01:06:08,839
the life of the homestead. And so that, that's kind of a, I I'll start with that example. Right.

804
01:06:08,839 --> 01:06:09,599
So I get out the door.

805
01:06:10,919 --> 01:06:12,259
You got the chores to do, right?

806
01:06:12,559 --> 01:06:16,279
So in my instance, I start with my chickens.

807
01:06:17,159 --> 01:06:21,119
And so I bring the food scraps out to the chickens, give them a couple of scoops of the grain.

808
01:06:21,119 --> 01:06:25,419
And my chickens, what I use them for is to compost my horse manure.

809
01:06:26,239 --> 01:06:30,359
And so every day I bring, well, I turn the compost piles.

810
01:06:30,439 --> 01:06:32,799
I rebuild the compost piles that I built in there the day before.

811
01:06:33,139 --> 01:06:36,559
This is giving my chickens access to worms and fly larva and whatever else.

812
01:06:36,559 --> 01:06:39,339
and my chickens are doing the work of turning this compost for me.

813
01:06:39,679 --> 01:06:40,699
And then they're paying me in food.

814
01:06:40,799 --> 01:06:41,999
They're paying me in eggs for that work.

815
01:06:42,299 --> 01:06:44,819
I collect the eggs and then I go get my wheelbarrow.

816
01:06:44,979 --> 01:06:46,599
I collect two wheelbarrow loads of horse manure.

817
01:06:46,819 --> 01:06:50,499
I dump that into the chicken area, build a new fresh pile of compost for them to work.

818
01:06:50,759 --> 01:06:53,639
And then I take the finished compost that the chickens have made,

819
01:06:54,419 --> 01:06:57,139
take that wheelbarrow of finished compost, add it to a garden,

820
01:06:57,259 --> 01:06:58,439
put it somewhere where I need fertility.

821
01:06:58,819 --> 01:07:01,519
Maybe I'm putting it in bags and selling it at a Bitcoin meetup.

822
01:07:01,519 --> 01:07:08,739
after that then I've got to give my horses their hay if they need hay, feed some hay to the rams,

823
01:07:09,379 --> 01:07:13,519
feed my rabbits and so I've got a rabbit colony integrated with the cannabis garden

824
01:07:13,519 --> 01:07:19,139
and so my rabbits actually grow my cannabis for me and rabbits are cool because they're vegetarians

825
01:07:19,139 --> 01:07:23,479
and unlike a chicken, chickens are omnivores. This is why the compost works so well to feed

826
01:07:23,479 --> 01:07:27,679
the chickens because they need bugs in their diet to produce those high quality eggs.

827
01:07:28,119 --> 01:07:31,299
A rabbit, on the other hand, does not need anything but vegetative material.

828
01:07:31,839 --> 01:07:33,419
And so I'll do some weeding.

829
01:07:33,579 --> 01:07:35,699
I'll take that wheelbarrow after I've dumped it to the compost somewhere.

830
01:07:36,019 --> 01:07:40,339
I'll weed some area like maybe my food forest, for example, where I've got all this perennial

831
01:07:40,339 --> 01:07:45,519
garden intermixed with where I grow subsistence crops, garlic, potatoes, onions, squash, carrots,

832
01:07:45,619 --> 01:07:49,559
that sort of stuff with fruit trees, berries, hazelnuts, that sort of thing.

833
01:07:50,299 --> 01:07:51,619
And so that area needs a little bit of weeding.

834
01:07:52,499 --> 01:07:54,479
I fill up a wheelbarrow full of weeds.

835
01:07:54,639 --> 01:07:56,699
I take that wheelbarrow of weeds.

836
01:07:56,699 --> 01:08:00,879
I mulch around the base of my cannabis plants, and this is food for my rabbits.

837
01:08:01,299 --> 01:08:03,599
My rabbits eat the weeds that I fed them.

838
01:08:03,999 --> 01:08:08,919
They're now weeding and, well, now they're depositing their fertility at the base of the cannabis plant.

839
01:08:09,939 --> 01:08:13,939
And this is the other thing that's cool about rabbits is that their manure is not hot.

840
01:08:14,059 --> 01:08:17,539
Unlike any of the other manures at the homestead, the chicken manure, horse manure, sheep manure,

841
01:08:17,759 --> 01:08:21,799
all those manures need compost time, aging time before you can actually feed them to a plant.

842
01:08:22,379 --> 01:08:26,779
Rabbit manure special, it's directly accessible to the plant right out of the animal.

843
01:08:27,639 --> 01:08:31,759
And so by feeding the rabbits at the base of the plant, now I'm actually feeding my cannabis too.

844
01:08:32,239 --> 01:08:36,339
And so I'm taking my weeds from my area where I'm growing my annuals and perennials.

845
01:08:37,379 --> 01:08:40,079
Instead of composting that, I'm turning that into rabbit meat.

846
01:08:40,079 --> 01:08:43,979
And then I'm also feeding my cannabis and mulching my cannabis.

847
01:08:43,979 --> 01:08:51,819
and so you could see that the chores kind of like go on like that for uh the morning right before

848
01:08:51,819 --> 01:08:57,279
lunch and then i've got some short-term rentals here i built a tiny house and a yurt which i

849
01:08:57,279 --> 01:09:02,839
access the ecotourism of my area i'm i'm not far from chicago so there's a lot of people that come

850
01:09:02,839 --> 01:09:09,619
to my area to come stay nightly and enjoy the homestead lifestyle i'm about uh 15 minutes from

851
01:09:09,619 --> 01:09:13,859
the beach at Lake Michigan. So there's people coming to go to the beach, hang out at the

852
01:09:13,859 --> 01:09:17,799
homestead, enjoy the animals and stuff that we've got here. And so I might be turning over one of

853
01:09:17,799 --> 01:09:24,319
those units or both of them. And then it's lunchtime, you know, and then after lunch,

854
01:09:24,319 --> 01:09:28,999
then it's like, what problem do I have to, what do I have to fix? What do I have to, like,

855
01:09:29,019 --> 01:09:34,559
that's where you kind of get some forward moving progress for the day. Uh, you're building on top

856
01:09:34,559 --> 01:09:40,719
of a system you're refining a system you're fixing a system um not just maintaining it strikes me

857
01:09:40,719 --> 01:09:45,039
rev what you just described is like in the morning you're working in your business then in the

858
01:09:45,039 --> 01:09:50,599
afternoon you get to work on it so there'll be something that needs your attention to make sure

859
01:09:50,599 --> 01:09:58,499
it functions and so and so lunch are you are you are you always eating something that you've created

860
01:09:58,499 --> 01:10:05,539
from your homestead? That's the goal, you know, and basically the way we've got things set up is

861
01:10:05,539 --> 01:10:11,299
that we produce enough food to where we don't need the grocery store, right? Like we could eat

862
01:10:11,299 --> 01:10:17,299
and survive off of all the food that we grow here. But the grocery store offers a lot of variety and

863
01:10:17,299 --> 01:10:24,119
a lot of convenience. And so there's times in your life where you just, you know, to take a lamb and

864
01:10:24,119 --> 01:10:28,939
slaughter it and butcher it and cut it up into the different parts and then freeze it and then

865
01:10:28,939 --> 01:10:33,099
thaw it and then prepare the meal, right? There's a lot of steps involved in from taking that live

866
01:10:33,099 --> 01:10:37,099
animal and turning it into food for yourself. And so sometimes you're busy and you just want to,

867
01:10:37,599 --> 01:10:42,359
you know, something convenient and easy from the grocery store. Slice deli meat, right? Make a

868
01:10:42,359 --> 01:10:48,919
sandwich and eat the sandwich and go on with your day. And so we try to eat as much as well that we

869
01:10:48,919 --> 01:10:54,819
produce as possible this is obviously lowering our um overhead our expense like our lifestyle

870
01:10:54,819 --> 01:11:00,119
cost in general but it's not always the case like i don't like to ever speak in absolutes when it

871
01:11:00,119 --> 01:11:03,999
comes to this kind of thing right there is definitely some trade-offs that you can make

872
01:11:03,999 --> 01:11:09,819
that are good for you if the grocery store ceases to exist i'll be just fine you know um but we do

873
01:11:09,819 --> 01:11:16,139
access the grocery store it's incredible sovereignty when you describe that and i'm the opposite end of

874
01:11:16,139 --> 01:11:20,859
scale where I'm currently renting the real estate that I'm living in and I'm buying my food from

875
01:11:20,859 --> 01:11:25,719
a store a different store every single day I mean I guess that was one of the lessons of the COVID

876
01:11:25,719 --> 01:11:30,459
experience I was actually in central Melbourne which was one of the worst lockdowns everywhere

877
01:11:30,459 --> 01:11:37,799
um I owned a house at the time it's like it's 195 square meters and you walk out the front door onto

878
01:11:37,799 --> 01:11:43,119
the government's pavement and they control everything and at the time there was a COVID

879
01:11:43,119 --> 01:11:48,779
testing center that was put up on the street so there were people queuing up on my front gate

880
01:11:48,779 --> 01:11:53,659
waiting to get a test to see if they could travel overseas or interstate it was crazy

881
01:11:53,659 --> 01:11:58,519
but I didn't know where my water was coming from I didn't know where my food was coming from I

882
01:11:58,519 --> 01:12:02,779
didn't know where my electricity was coming from and even though I did think that I owned a house

883
01:12:02,779 --> 01:12:07,639
it was quite clearly in someone else's fiefdom because you're now not allowed to go to the

884
01:12:07,639 --> 01:12:12,239
grocery store you know more than five kilometers away or you can't go and see a family member or

885
01:12:12,239 --> 01:12:16,579
you can't go to the sports stadium unless you get this medicine or whatever the case might be

886
01:12:16,579 --> 01:12:24,099
um it's interesting in a sense that four or five years later i'm still living in that similar

887
01:12:24,099 --> 01:12:28,219
tangent and what you've just described is like the complete opposite end of the spectrum where

888
01:12:28,219 --> 01:12:33,339
it's like no okay well i could survive without a grocery store i mean wow that's so different and

889
01:12:33,339 --> 01:12:38,959
you talk about stored capital like that's a that's an amazing thing to be able to fall back on

890
01:12:38,959 --> 01:12:44,619
I'm intrigued because as a home chef like we're really into our our health and always investing

891
01:12:44,619 --> 01:12:50,219
in it and we're very specific about what we do eat and what we don't eat eating your own food

892
01:12:50,219 --> 01:12:55,559
directly out of the land around where you're sleeping every day it must be incredible quality

893
01:12:55,559 --> 01:13:01,919
you know exactly what's got into it like do you feel different from 10 years ago before you started

894
01:13:01,919 --> 01:13:07,299
this process yeah and this is this is kind of where it comes into that that vital capital

895
01:13:07,299 --> 01:13:13,759
component, right? Your mental health and physical. Not only do I get the health benefits of the high

896
01:13:13,759 --> 01:13:20,459
quality food that I'm producing, but I get the health benefits of actually producing it because

897
01:13:20,459 --> 01:13:26,539
it takes physical work and it it's you're very proud of the things that you produce. This is good

898
01:13:26,539 --> 01:13:31,219
for your mental health. You know, when I when I have a hand in my own sustenance and the sustenance

899
01:13:31,219 --> 01:13:37,639
for my family. This is, uh, this gives me a lot of strength. Um, and so it's, it's kind of this

900
01:13:37,639 --> 01:13:42,639
compounded effect where not only are you getting these like physical health benefits from the

901
01:13:42,639 --> 01:13:45,739
nutritional quality of the food, but you're actually getting all of the mental health

902
01:13:45,739 --> 01:13:50,299
benefits from producing it, the physical health benefits from actually using your own effort,

903
01:13:50,599 --> 01:13:57,339
uh, your muscle to produce it. Um, and so it's, it's, I, I, Bitcoin really, you know, it enables,

904
01:13:57,339 --> 01:14:04,799
I like to think that we live this like future, what the future looks like of living a subsistence lifestyle.

905
01:14:05,559 --> 01:14:10,799
A hundred, well, maybe not, maybe it's been longer than a hundred years ago now, but roughly a hundred years ago, let's say.

906
01:14:11,679 --> 01:14:17,319
Natural capital was like one of the most valuable forms of capital because that was the ability to produce food.

907
01:14:17,419 --> 01:14:21,439
And it wasn't like you could just ship food from one continent to the other.

908
01:14:21,439 --> 01:14:22,339
Yeah, it's crazy.

909
01:14:22,339 --> 01:14:28,919
And so locally, the excess natural capital that you had had a high level of liquidity, right?

910
01:14:29,079 --> 01:14:35,999
Because if someone had a hard time and they couldn't produce their food, now you can provide that to them, right?

911
01:14:36,039 --> 01:14:38,499
There's a much higher market for it.

912
01:14:38,499 --> 01:14:44,859
And so the natural capital now with Bitcoin, right?

913
01:14:46,119 --> 01:14:56,899
It's the purchasing power that you gain allows you to sort of make that short term sacrifice in building up the systems to produce your natural capital again.

914
01:14:57,839 --> 01:15:06,119
And it's like when you buy food at the grocery, like if I were to buy the quality of food that I produce here, I could I mean, I couldn't afford it.

915
01:15:06,119 --> 01:15:11,399
right? To exchange my Bitcoin for the same level of quality that I'm actually growing myself.

916
01:15:11,399 --> 01:15:18,779
So I'm actually saving Bitcoin in a sense and not having to sacrifice my vital capital by buying

917
01:15:18,779 --> 01:15:24,079
lower quality food, extra processed food, so on and so forth. And so because I have the Bitcoin,

918
01:15:24,239 --> 01:15:29,739
it enables me to actually live this higher standard of living. But I'm not necessarily

919
01:15:29,739 --> 01:15:35,219
like extremely wealthy as far as financial capital is concerned it just gives me this

920
01:15:35,219 --> 01:15:42,539
savings account that gives me the stability to now focus on natural capital but like what is wealth

921
01:15:42,539 --> 01:15:49,939
in that sense rev like you know the more i've studied it in a sense i think wealth is time

922
01:15:49,939 --> 01:15:57,739
and the more time that you have to yourself to investigate under your own steam whatever it is

923
01:15:57,739 --> 01:16:03,299
you might be interested in, whether that's homeschooling your children or living off the

924
01:16:03,299 --> 01:16:08,839
land or whatever the case might be, that's wealth. So you can have a financial wealth figure that

925
01:16:08,839 --> 01:16:15,719
would blow people's minds. But if you have to work 366 days a year, 18 and a half hours a day

926
01:16:15,719 --> 01:16:21,959
to get that, like, is that actually wealth? And the fiat system incentivizes that. It comes back

927
01:16:21,959 --> 01:16:26,579
to that like, oh, mate, your income is not strong enough. I can't give you a loan. It's like, yeah,

928
01:16:26,579 --> 01:16:27,639
but look at the balance sheet.

929
01:16:28,139 --> 01:16:29,919
And they don't even care about that.

930
01:16:30,399 --> 01:16:31,439
It's like, okay, well, obviously,

931
01:16:31,439 --> 01:16:33,759
people are going to work as long and as hard as possible

932
01:16:33,759 --> 01:16:35,999
to try and increase that fiat number.

933
01:16:36,339 --> 01:16:37,439
But at what cost?

934
01:16:38,239 --> 01:16:40,939
And the morning that you've painted is so interesting.

935
01:16:41,039 --> 01:16:43,279
It's like, okay, I've got a morning's worth of work to do

936
01:16:43,279 --> 01:16:47,979
to sustain the momentum of my homestead.

937
01:16:48,399 --> 01:16:51,119
And then I'm going to take a break, feed myself.

938
01:16:51,219 --> 01:16:54,219
And then the afternoon is about how do I increase the capital

939
01:16:54,219 --> 01:16:55,859
or the momentum of my homestead?

940
01:16:55,859 --> 01:16:58,459
And I think that's so cool because that's wealth.

941
01:16:59,039 --> 01:17:02,939
You know, you've bought yourself half a day or whatever the case might be to do that.

942
01:17:04,419 --> 01:17:04,859
Sure.

943
01:17:05,099 --> 01:17:15,319
I had one last question, Rev, that I wanted to go through that I heard you describe yourself or someone asked you if you were a mad scientist.

944
01:17:16,239 --> 01:17:19,319
So this is just we'll spend five, ten minutes on this before wrapping it up.

945
01:17:20,639 --> 01:17:22,659
Do you like to make experiments?

946
01:17:22,659 --> 01:17:29,999
were you always curious as a young boy and like what is a mad scientist like i feel like we need

947
01:17:29,999 --> 01:17:38,459
more mad scientists in the world yeah i think i i feel like it a lot of times um because i

948
01:17:38,459 --> 01:17:47,299
so i do a lot of the the mad science the most like obvious stuff you could look at for what i put out

949
01:17:47,299 --> 01:17:51,259
there as far as the mad scientist stuff is concerned is the work that i do with the bitcoin

950
01:17:51,259 --> 01:17:59,919
miners. And, um, I've always, as a, as a kid, I was, I was always kind of handy. You know, I used

951
01:17:59,919 --> 01:18:04,399
to like to ride, um, BMX bikes and skateboard and stuff. And so I was always building ramps.

952
01:18:04,399 --> 01:18:10,399
And even before that I was building tree houses and just like taking whatever junk I could find

953
01:18:10,399 --> 01:18:18,099
in the garage and making this into something that I could utilize. And, and so my style is very

954
01:18:18,099 --> 01:18:23,519
makeshift. You know, there's some people out there that they have, uh, excellent engineering prowess

955
01:18:23,519 --> 01:18:27,459
and then they, they take the time to really get the right materials and make it look nice. And

956
01:18:27,459 --> 01:18:32,859
I like to work, and this comes a lot down to like the permaculture principles. Um,

957
01:18:33,619 --> 01:18:38,419
so there's a permaculture principle, uh, produce no waste, uh, use in value, another one, use in

958
01:18:38,419 --> 01:18:42,859
value, renewable resources and materials. And, uh, basically when you start to look at these

959
01:18:42,859 --> 01:18:47,059
permaculture principles, what it suggests and what it distills down to is like, use what you have

960
01:18:47,059 --> 01:18:51,719
first, try and utilize what's in front of you first, rather than going out and getting this

961
01:18:51,719 --> 01:18:59,279
outside input to work with. And so the reason why a lot of my stuff looks like mad scientist work is

962
01:18:59,279 --> 01:19:04,899
because I'm trying to find any old bucket or broken piece of junk or whatever, and repurpose

963
01:19:04,899 --> 01:19:09,479
that. And a lot of times I'm repurposing that into maybe a Bitcoin mining hot water heater,

964
01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:15,039
or a Bitcoin mining clothes dryer, or a Bitcoin mining food dehydrator. I have very little

965
01:19:15,039 --> 01:19:22,139
outside investment in these contraptions. And they look like that. They look like a contraption

966
01:19:22,139 --> 01:19:26,339
made out of trash and junk, but it mines Bitcoin and it does the thing that I want it to do.

967
01:19:26,939 --> 01:19:31,719
And one of the beauties of when you build things with trash like this, and you could kind of think,

968
01:19:32,639 --> 01:19:36,899
and I don't know if this is true or not, but I romanticized the idea of the Native Americans,

969
01:19:36,899 --> 01:19:43,959
they have these teepees, right? That structure does not last forever. And so you could imagine

970
01:19:43,959 --> 01:19:49,579
being a young man, an Indian, and today your dad's like, you're going to build your first teepee today.

971
01:19:49,779 --> 01:19:54,919
And you go and you find out how to cut the wood down and you tan the skins and you build this teepee

972
01:19:54,919 --> 01:20:00,699
and it's like a piece of shit and it lasts only a year and it degrades, right? And even the father's

973
01:20:00,699 --> 01:20:04,139
teepee will degrade. He's really good at it. His teepee degrades in five years or something, right?

974
01:20:04,139 --> 01:20:08,819
But you're constantly having to rebuild the teepee out of stuff that you can find in the environment

975
01:20:08,819 --> 01:20:10,519
and unhoned a craft.

976
01:20:10,639 --> 01:20:12,899
And each time you do it, you build a better teepee.

977
01:20:13,459 --> 01:20:16,119
And so when it comes to these Bitcoin mining contraptions,

978
01:20:16,239 --> 01:20:18,039
I start off with the junk that I've got laying around.

979
01:20:18,939 --> 01:20:20,239
I build the contraption.

980
01:20:20,479 --> 01:20:21,259
It does the thing.

981
01:20:21,559 --> 01:20:23,319
And then it fails for most of the time

982
01:20:23,319 --> 01:20:24,399
because I built it out of junk.

983
01:20:24,819 --> 01:20:27,459
And if someone had built it with all of this,

984
01:20:27,699 --> 01:20:28,499
the right materials,

985
01:20:28,859 --> 01:20:30,279
right material might be the wrong word,

986
01:20:30,279 --> 01:20:32,079
but with these outside materials,

987
01:20:32,399 --> 01:20:35,699
purpose-built for the application to start with,

988
01:20:35,899 --> 01:20:37,339
it's going to last a lot longer.

989
01:20:37,339 --> 01:20:42,579
But I get to iterate my way into something that lasts a long time and have much less.

990
01:20:42,739 --> 01:20:46,739
I have to spend very little sats in that process.

991
01:20:47,699 --> 01:20:49,979
It's almost like a prototyping process.

992
01:20:50,619 --> 01:20:54,459
So you're creating a minimum viable product somehow.

993
01:20:55,099 --> 01:20:56,459
You're proving the use case.

994
01:20:57,079 --> 01:21:03,459
And then if you chose to spend your sats on creating something, you've got a much better understanding of whether or not it will work.

995
01:21:04,219 --> 01:21:04,779
Yeah, very cool.

996
01:21:04,779 --> 01:21:12,139
And that in itself, that is capital stewardship or capital growth management at its very core.

997
01:21:13,539 --> 01:21:14,079
Well, Rev, listen.

998
01:21:14,199 --> 01:21:14,339
Okay.

999
01:21:14,459 --> 01:21:17,459
So we're running up to the 90-minute mark.

1000
01:21:17,559 --> 01:21:19,699
So I'm going to say thank you so much for your time.

1001
01:21:19,839 --> 01:21:22,039
And thank you so much for sharing everything you have today.

1002
01:21:22,559 --> 01:21:25,019
I really love learning from people.

1003
01:21:25,379 --> 01:21:30,879
And the fact that we're able to jump on a video call and have a conversation like this in completely different parts of the world,

1004
01:21:30,939 --> 01:21:33,079
doing completely different things, is a real pleasure.

1005
01:21:33,179 --> 01:21:33,819
So thank you.

1006
01:21:33,819 --> 01:21:37,479
if anyone wants to reach out and get in touch what's the best way to do that

1007
01:21:37,479 --> 01:21:40,959
well you can find me on Noster that's pretty much where I hang out

1008
01:21:40,959 --> 01:21:46,939
that's the the good touch point to find me I'm Rev Hodel on Noster not to be

1009
01:21:46,939 --> 01:21:49,999
confused with Reverend Hodel there's another guy over there we get mixed up

1010
01:21:49,999 --> 01:21:52,539
all the time I'm not Reverend Hodel I'm just R-E-V

1011
01:21:52,539 --> 01:21:58,999
Rev.Hodel find me on Noster connect with me happy to to talk about permaculture

1012
01:21:58,999 --> 01:22:03,499
talk about Bitcoin mining talk about ways to live life on a Bitcoin standard

1013
01:22:03,499 --> 01:22:11,939
whatever. And another thing I can close out with too is just, so a lot of the stories and a lot of

1014
01:22:11,939 --> 01:22:17,499
the stuff I talked about, just to relate it back to these nine forms of capital, you've got time,

1015
01:22:17,599 --> 01:22:21,859
which is a flow, right? You're spending your time. And so you can try and think about, try and

1016
01:22:21,859 --> 01:22:28,059
look at all of these examples that I was giving my day-to-day and with each expenditure of my time,

1017
01:22:28,059 --> 01:22:33,579
try and deduce how many forms of capital am I stacking with each expenditure of the time.

1018
01:22:33,699 --> 01:22:38,639
In my morning routine, am I just doing my chores or am I stacking many, how many forms

1019
01:22:38,639 --> 01:22:40,279
of capital am I actually stacking there?

1020
01:22:41,579 --> 01:22:46,719
The name of the game is to design your life and build the lifestyle around when you spend

1021
01:22:46,719 --> 01:22:51,979
your time, you've got to be trying to build, if you're aware of this concept, then it becomes

1022
01:22:51,979 --> 01:22:57,139
much easier to start to say, oh yeah, when I did that trip or when I built this thing

1023
01:22:57,139 --> 01:23:04,019
or when I had that interaction, I didn't just get the main driving purpose for that expenditure

1024
01:23:04,019 --> 01:23:07,519
of your time. If you can recognize all of these different things that you might have built

1025
01:23:07,519 --> 01:23:13,359
alongside that, then you can really start to wield this concept and use this concept of the

1026
01:23:13,359 --> 01:23:17,759
nine forms of capital to your advantage to build a savings that is resilient, which you can then

1027
01:23:17,759 --> 01:23:24,439
pass to your children and carry this on for future generations. Awesome. That is the name of the game.

1028
01:23:24,439 --> 01:23:31,399
It's, you know, how do you steward the humanistic, the intellectual capital to help people then flourish?

1029
01:23:31,879 --> 01:23:33,439
And, of course, your kids are key in that.

1030
01:23:34,219 --> 01:23:35,699
Well, Rev, thank you so much for your time today.

1031
01:23:37,619 --> 01:23:39,659
If you guys want to talk again, man, I'm happy to do it.

1032
01:23:39,699 --> 01:23:40,139
It was great.

1033
01:23:40,519 --> 01:23:41,219
Good to meet you.

1034
01:23:42,459 --> 01:23:43,779
Yeah, man, keep at it.

1035
01:23:43,819 --> 01:23:44,499
Love the podcast.

1036
01:23:44,599 --> 01:23:45,679
I listened to a few episodes.

1037
01:23:46,559 --> 01:23:46,879
Awesome.

1038
01:23:47,479 --> 01:23:48,019
Thanks, Rev.