1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,260 Awesome. David, welcome to the podcast. 2 00:00:04,780 --> 00:00:05,940 Great to be here. Thanks for having me. 3 00:00:06,620 --> 00:00:08,620 So we're going to get straight into it. 4 00:00:09,020 --> 00:00:11,740 And you are building a business called Musket. 5 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:17,680 And you're working on Bitcoin as the rails for payments as a problem. 6 00:00:18,220 --> 00:00:20,440 And we're going to start off with a demo. 7 00:00:20,820 --> 00:00:22,180 And we didn't do this offline. 8 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,080 Let me be very clear to anyone that's listening. 9 00:00:24,580 --> 00:00:25,640 It's like, oh, should we try it first? 10 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:27,840 Like, no, let's click record and we'll try it. 11 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:29,580 So David, let's have a crack. 12 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:37,700 at using Musket. Okay, so our product, just so everyone is aware, we're making sure that we can 13 00:00:37,700 --> 00:00:43,280 use Bitcoin as a payment. So this is a payment device, a payment terminal that you will know and 14 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:48,900 love. We've got a partnership here with Verifone. So that's our terminal provider. The Musket stack 15 00:00:48,900 --> 00:00:55,480 sits inside or on top of the device as software. And the idea being, for everyone who can see it 16 00:00:55,480 --> 00:01:00,300 there that you have two buttons on the screen pay with card or pay with bitcoin if you press pay with 17 00:01:00,300 --> 00:01:07,160 card you enter the amount if it's synced to our epos and you just press checkout the amount just 18 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:11,860 pops up automatically you don't need to input anything but if you press pay with bitcoin then 19 00:01:11,860 --> 00:01:17,140 the same thing comes up we put a big bitcoin logo in the background because some people got lazy and 20 00:01:17,140 --> 00:01:23,460 just started trying to process card transactions on bitcoin rails um but yeah so let's assume you've 21 00:01:23,460 --> 00:01:30,200 just come into uh to david's coffee shop ordered a latte with oat milk or whatever it is you like 22 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:36,120 um i'm going to charge you 21 pence for that so i've just put that in um you have to ignore the 23 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:41,020 big red not for commercial payment this is a test device i'm just going to press confirm on there 24 00:01:41,020 --> 00:01:47,380 it raises the qr code instantly so now it's over to you as the person interacting or buying products 25 00:01:47,380 --> 00:01:51,860 with that what i'm hoping oh i've got a big red line when that goes hold on 26 00:01:51,860 --> 00:01:56,260 oh we've got a problem with the 27 00:01:57,260 --> 00:02:04,000 riverside blurring so i'm not able to scan that qr code i'm afraid david from here 28 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:15,900 oh here we go loading payment details done okay 0.0000312 bitcoin must get a demo 29 00:02:15,900 --> 00:02:25,480 let's go for it send okay sent there we go straight through boom oh my gosh cool 30 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:30,700 your receipt comes out there you go 21 pence bought and paid where are you in the world 31 00:02:30,700 --> 00:02:35,980 i am in melbourne australia okay so that's gone from melbourne to south of london 32 00:02:35,980 --> 00:02:42,140 in the blink of an eye with final sentence yeah oh my god oh you've just bootstrapped 33 00:02:42,140 --> 00:02:48,680 the musket business with you yeah thank you very much my pleasure oh my god i've got i've got like 34 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:56,260 energy running up the back of my neck oh it's just so goddamn cool okay so for someone out there 35 00:02:56,260 --> 00:03:03,020 that has never heard of you or i and it's like what fuck did those guys just do let's try and 36 00:03:03,020 --> 00:03:10,000 make it as simple as possible to try and explain what we just did yeah so um so what happened there 37 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,460 is you tried to buy a product and service from me. 38 00:03:14,020 --> 00:03:18,200 Usually to make that payment using a card rail, 39 00:03:18,340 --> 00:03:19,620 you would have to physically be here. 40 00:03:19,820 --> 00:03:22,920 There's no way you could have processed that payment 41 00:03:22,920 --> 00:03:26,880 with a card otherwise on a physical terminal. 42 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:31,860 The option we would have had is for me to raise a payment link 43 00:03:31,860 --> 00:03:35,400 and send you that via perhaps WhatsApp or email 44 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,180 or some other method, 45 00:03:37,180 --> 00:03:42,060 or arguably I could have generated a payment link and shown you a QR code on the screen. 46 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,540 You could have scanned that and then paid with your Visa card. 47 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,300 Now, interestingly, because I'm in the UK and you're in Australia, 48 00:03:50,460 --> 00:03:53,420 paying with that card, what would have happened is in the background, 49 00:03:53,540 --> 00:03:54,900 that would have been an international payment. 50 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,880 It would have incurred incredibly high fees, 51 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:04,660 most likely interchange plus exchange rates, probably 3% to 4%, I would have said, 52 00:04:04,660 --> 00:04:08,380 depending on the card type used and the bank issuing it. 53 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,680 And we could have processed that transaction. 54 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:14,380 A bit clunky, but we could have done it. 55 00:04:14,740 --> 00:04:19,100 Behind the scenes, what then is happening is all kinds of permissioned requests 56 00:04:19,100 --> 00:04:23,580 from your Apple account or your phone app 57 00:04:23,580 --> 00:04:27,660 through to all of the scheme providers, 58 00:04:27,660 --> 00:04:30,360 so the merchant acquirer, the scheme, Visa, MasterCard, Amex, 59 00:04:30,580 --> 00:04:32,120 and then the final settlement. 60 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:39,540 And that whole process can take up to 30 days, assuming fees aren't even, payments aren't withheld. 61 00:04:40,020 --> 00:04:46,240 So, you know, it's somewhat clunky, tons and tons of permission, not a great experience. 62 00:04:46,660 --> 00:04:49,840 What we just did was completely flip that on its head. 63 00:04:50,300 --> 00:04:53,820 And you just sent me final settlement instantly in Bitcoin. 64 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:55,880 So I'm a merchant that has transferred. 65 00:04:57,020 --> 00:05:00,620 I mean, it's not really transferred if we get deep into the weeds of Bitcoin. 66 00:05:00,620 --> 00:05:07,760 But it's theoretically a payment from one side of the world to another that has settled instantaneously. 67 00:05:08,260 --> 00:05:12,320 So there's no commissions. It's a direct relationship between you and the merchant. 68 00:05:13,460 --> 00:05:25,200 Musket in the middle has provided the QR code and the rails and the ability for the merchant to accept that payment and store the Bitcoin lightning on their channel or in their environment. 69 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,040 and that's moved from you to them. 70 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:28,780 There's no chargebacks 71 00:05:28,780 --> 00:05:31,700 and the cost of that would have been less than 1% 72 00:05:31,700 --> 00:05:36,320 versus the 4% likely that an international card charge 73 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:38,180 would have implemented. 74 00:05:38,900 --> 00:05:41,220 So I'm not going to say it's magic, 75 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:42,120 but it's kind of magic. 76 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:44,300 It is kind of magic, David. 77 00:05:44,940 --> 00:05:49,360 I didn't understand what a bearer asset was 78 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,900 until I fell very heavily down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, 79 00:05:53,900 --> 00:05:57,660 which has been five plus years of extremely deep research. 80 00:05:57,860 --> 00:06:00,300 I've owned some now for over 10 years, amazingly. 81 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,340 But as an investor, quote unquote, looking at allocating assets, 82 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,500 I've really only seriously looked at Bitcoin in the last, since 2020. 83 00:06:09,280 --> 00:06:11,920 And I'm like, hang on, so what is a bearer asset? 84 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:14,500 So for someone out there that doesn't know what I'm talking about, 85 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:20,180 explain if you can what you think a bearer asset means to you 86 00:06:20,180 --> 00:06:23,300 and how, you know, when you're using a MasterCard 87 00:06:23,300 --> 00:06:26,440 and a dollar or a euro or an RMB, 88 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,440 the difference between that is an experience 89 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,920 in terms of value transfer and what just happened with Bitcoin. 90 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:34,940 Yeah, I mean, in simple terms, 91 00:06:34,940 --> 00:06:38,760 a bearer asset is an asset that you hold. 92 00:06:39,180 --> 00:06:41,980 It's something that is definitively yours 93 00:06:41,980 --> 00:06:44,840 in terms of you own the legal contract 94 00:06:44,840 --> 00:06:47,780 or legal rights to possess said item 95 00:06:47,780 --> 00:06:49,920 and you physically actually have it. 96 00:06:49,920 --> 00:07:05,020 You know, you can have bearer assets, the risk with bearer assets, whether it's a bearer bond or anything physical specie, any other sort of physical asset, is that quite often you have to rely upon a third party custodian. 97 00:07:05,020 --> 00:07:08,200 So you still introduce risk into that environment. 98 00:07:09,340 --> 00:07:23,880 You know, we saw a few years ago, a lot of people held jewellery and other expensive items in bank vaults underneath the streets of London in a place called Hatton Garden, which is synonymous with the diamond industry. 99 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:31,000 And there was a famous bank heist and millions and millions of pounds worth of assets were stolen. 100 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,300 You know, they are theoretically a bearer asset. 101 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:39,700 But by putting the trust in a third party custodian, you're creating, introducing risk into it. 102 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,900 So if you don't hold it, you can't provably hold it. 103 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:44,500 Is it really a bearer asset? 104 00:07:44,900 --> 00:07:48,360 You end up in somewhat of a philosophical conversation. 105 00:07:49,060 --> 00:08:00,240 Whereas the difference being with Bitcoin, if you hold the asset, if you're not sort of, if you're not relying upon an exchange or another third party custodian, 106 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:06,680 All you have to do is remember your seed phrase, either remember it or write it down and make sure that no one else has access to it. 107 00:08:07,260 --> 00:08:09,480 And that then is provably yours. 108 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,540 Nobody can take it from you unless force is used. 109 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,900 And you remove all of the risk of third party custodians. 110 00:08:18,540 --> 00:08:22,640 So I think Bitcoin is incredible in a way that we've had. 111 00:08:23,020 --> 00:08:24,660 We do have bearer assets. 112 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:26,720 They exist today. 113 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:32,560 But to be able to send those instantaneously across the world without risk, we don't have that. 114 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:39,060 So Bitcoin stands in a category and a class of its own based on financial innovation and technological innovation. 115 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:40,360 It's incredible. 116 00:08:41,180 --> 00:08:48,460 When I first heard as well the idea of store of value across time and store of value across space, 117 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:55,280 it really opened up for me this idea of like, okay, well, gold's done a very good job of store of value across time. 118 00:08:55,280 --> 00:09:01,500 but the the development of the communication networks of the last 150 years let's call it 119 00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:06,760 meant that it was much easier to call someone up and say by the way let's just agree to swap some 120 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:11,800 gold on this piece of paper because we could do the transaction so much faster so gold failed 121 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:19,300 at store of value across space and suddenly gold it's it's clear that to me bitcoin's a better 122 00:09:19,300 --> 00:09:22,520 version of gold in that sense because it's like okay well bitcoin's going to hold value across 123 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:28,060 time because of its scarcity, but also across space, because you can now do what we just did, 124 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:34,280 which is said 21 pennies worth of Bitcoin across the world as a bear asset. That's never been 125 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:40,600 possible before. Now, as a customer, I was thinking when you were speaking about how we 126 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,680 might have done that transaction, I could maybe have called you and given my credit card number 127 00:09:44,680 --> 00:09:49,620 across a phone call. And you could have typed that into your FPOS unit. There's different ways 128 00:09:49,620 --> 00:09:55,820 of doing it but i had a fee for that payment and that was kind of the cost to me and hopefully i'd 129 00:09:55,820 --> 00:10:01,260 receive whatever product or service i was buying you know shortly but the the under the hood the 130 00:10:01,260 --> 00:10:06,580 merchant takes so much risk that's not always that obvious right but like yeah people get this whole 131 00:10:06,580 --> 00:10:14,320 chargeback problem that happens all the time um so so how yeah any of that resonate david but it's 132 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:19,020 it's that it's that idea of transferring value across space that's just never been possible like 133 00:10:19,020 --> 00:10:24,860 before isn't it yeah completely agree um and forgive me just for my eyes flitting around here 134 00:10:24,860 --> 00:10:29,260 that's okay and pull up a presentation just to reference because i wanted to get the name of the 135 00:10:29,820 --> 00:10:35,900 uh of the painting correct um so sorry the the artists i'll come on for a second um 136 00:10:35,900 --> 00:10:43,420 yeah so there's two things here um i think the transfer of value is really really important 137 00:10:43,420 --> 00:11:07,800 So let's cover that to start with, I guess. I do a talk every now and then about the intersection between AI, Bitcoin and energy. And my thesis is that effectively those three things unlock the new equivalent of an industrial revolution, technological information based revolution. 138 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,860 because what you're doing there is you're fusing the creation of energy. 139 00:11:12,420 --> 00:11:16,900 You're linking that with money in a way that Bitcoin is uniquely placed to do. 140 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:24,280 And then you're using that to power the next iteration of value creation and commerce on the Internet, 141 00:11:24,380 --> 00:11:27,640 which is one of the things that we're building the infrastructure for, 142 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:33,540 effectively bot-to-bot machine-to-machine payments that don't require any human interaction. 143 00:11:33,660 --> 00:11:35,840 They can just use the Lightning Network that we just demoed. 144 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:47,780 And the first step from this, I would argue, started, so there's a painting by a chap called Robert Dudley in 1866, and it's called From Two Weeks to Two Minutes. 145 00:11:48,340 --> 00:12:00,820 And it's a picture of, it looks like they're on a ship somewhere, but sort of, you know, 18th century chaps in their nice outfits, all found a candle with some cables on the floor. 146 00:12:00,820 --> 00:12:06,520 And what the painting is depicting, I think it was Dominic Frisby that alerted to me this the first time. 147 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:15,640 But what the painting is depicting is that moment in time when the first transatlantic cable was laid between the UK or mainland Europe and North America. 148 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:20,580 And it took that messaging transfer time down from two weeks to two minutes. 149 00:12:20,580 --> 00:12:32,220 I mean, that is just such an incredible leap because with that information, you can start to then really accelerate trade and finance and just general information. 150 00:12:32,700 --> 00:12:37,820 So now, again, we've had this ability to do it digitally to share information. 151 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:43,920 We've never had the ability to actually shift the asset globally and interconnect trade. 152 00:12:44,180 --> 00:12:48,420 There's always been a final settlement which takes typically 30 days or so. 153 00:12:48,420 --> 00:13:00,980 So I think what we're likely to see here with the Lightning Network and with Bitcoin, but also I think there's probably a role for stable coins on Bitcoin and Lightning as well, is this borderless instant transaction. 154 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,920 In some cases, humans are involved. In some cases, it's just bot-to-bot transactions. 155 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,920 But that's another leap forward in terms of global commerce. 156 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,760 So, you know, the same way that that was the first step to take it from two weeks to two minutes. 157 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:22,000 I think what we're likely to see is a completely new commercial revolution. 158 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:26,020 And we've already seen demos of this streaming payments. 159 00:13:26,620 --> 00:13:33,480 You can pay your supply chain by the minute, even by the second if you want to, if you are so inclined. 160 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:50,000 So I think all kinds of different business models commercial models and settlement types will emerge from the Lightning Network when it fully up to scale fully robust and it fully global And we really pushing the boundaries in a way that 161 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:57,260 the Visa, the MasterCard, and the international settlements layers just aren't set up to execute 162 00:13:57,260 --> 00:14:04,840 right now. It's so fascinating, isn't it? We're living through an extraordinary time. And I often 163 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:09,720 come back to this fact that's it's so true and you can verify this yourself information travels 164 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:16,760 unfairly through markets in that we're lucky to have found out this stuff right now many people 165 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:22,600 haven't pulled the dots together and that puts us in a unique position to go okay well what what do 166 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:28,280 we need to do to make this a reality where do we see opportunities to build businesses or build 167 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,500 technology or to improve our lives. 168 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,620 I had a couple of episodes ago, Jesse from Amboss. 169 00:14:34,700 --> 00:14:37,280 Have you met Jesse before during your journey so far? 170 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:38,400 No, I love what they're doing. 171 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,920 Yeah, and it's very applicable to this conversation. 172 00:14:43,620 --> 00:14:48,420 Fascinating listening to him talk about how the Lightning Network is going to scale and 173 00:14:48,420 --> 00:14:55,160 how building the plumbing for that as capitalists with Lightning channels and adding capital 174 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:55,620 to it. 175 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:57,040 And it's awesome. 176 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,000 and he was talking a lot about stable coins. 177 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,300 So I'm completely with you there as an opportunity. 178 00:15:02,500 --> 00:15:04,620 David, where I'd like to take this now is, 179 00:15:05,140 --> 00:15:07,660 you know, the store of value function of money 180 00:15:07,660 --> 00:15:09,560 is just one feature of money. 181 00:15:10,060 --> 00:15:11,760 It's also unit of account. 182 00:15:11,940 --> 00:15:13,860 It's also medium of exchange. 183 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:15,500 And I think where Musket is sitting 184 00:15:15,500 --> 00:15:17,680 is very much this idea of medium of exchange. 185 00:15:18,380 --> 00:15:19,680 I'd love to understand, 186 00:15:20,060 --> 00:15:22,100 how did you even come across this problem? 187 00:15:22,540 --> 00:15:23,820 Like, what were you doing in your life? 188 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,020 Were you like, oh, this is what I want to do. 189 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:34,900 my time? Yeah, so it's a good question. That's part of my sort of origin story. I first stumbled 190 00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:42,280 into Bitcoin 2014, and apologies if people have heard this before. I was working for, 191 00:15:42,340 --> 00:15:46,760 I was in management consultancy before, so I'd spent a period of time in low latency trading 192 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:52,100 and algorithmic trading technologies for BT, the city of London, for the first couple of years of 193 00:15:52,100 --> 00:15:58,840 my career, spent about 10 years in management consulting after that, and then moved to Sky, 194 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:05,680 the TV company, launching streaming businesses all over Europe, so Ireland, Austria, Germany. 195 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:15,060 And that was an interesting corporate career. But it was in 2014 when I was at PwC, I was working 196 00:16:15,060 --> 00:16:20,160 for Boris Johnson when he was the mayor of London. There was a project basically just to remove 100 197 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,880 million of spend out of the UK government, just be more efficient with spend across common goods 198 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:30,320 and services. It was a classic cost reduction project. I was given a side quest, which was, 199 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:37,080 could we also look at enormous civil engineering contracts and try and investigate whether there's 200 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:42,520 any supply chain fraud or whether their declared profits are much higher and they're taking more 201 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:47,220 money out of the taxpayer base than they've declared in the procurement? And they said, 202 00:16:47,220 --> 00:16:51,040 look, can you look into whether we can use Bitcoin as a mechanism to do that? 203 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,700 And I think what they wanted to do was trace every transaction, 204 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:59,620 act as the central custodian of record, sorry, exchange of record at the end, 205 00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:03,520 and then basically make sure that the cost of public goods and services 206 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,480 would be driven down, of course, major capital infrastructure projects. 207 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,480 So, you know, it was a really interesting project. 208 00:17:10,220 --> 00:17:11,820 We did it, pitched it. 209 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,560 The answer was sort of, you know, sorry, lads, up for a nighthood next year. 210 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,360 I don't want to rustle the boat too much. 211 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,640 So, you know, maybe talk to my successor. 212 00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:27,540 Really innovative, but it was just too much to go for at that time. 213 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,620 And I think what they wanted really was a CBDC. 214 00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:31,160 But that was 2014. 215 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,000 I was obsessed from that point. 216 00:17:33,620 --> 00:17:34,140 Really? 217 00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:35,220 Wow. 218 00:17:36,660 --> 00:17:37,960 It catches you, doesn't it? 219 00:17:38,220 --> 00:17:38,620 Yeah. 220 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:43,000 It was the technological side that gripped me first. 221 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:48,020 and I then spent a couple of years just thinking about it reading about it alongside my career 222 00:17:48,020 --> 00:17:55,140 and just went fully down the Austrian economic rabbit hole completely changed most if not all 223 00:17:55,140 --> 00:18:00,900 of my worldviews and I just had all this information in my head and it was the days before podcasts you 224 00:18:00,900 --> 00:18:06,640 know there was it was before Pump launched his podcast which was really popular it was before 225 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:11,540 Peter McCormack's podcast it was sort of you know it was really early days there was very little 226 00:18:11,540 --> 00:18:17,780 information is mainly andreas that i was sort of learning from um and um so myself and one of my 227 00:18:17,780 --> 00:18:23,060 eventual co-founders um we just talked about it quite a lot and we set up this training course 228 00:18:23,060 --> 00:18:30,500 so this was sort of 27 early 2017 maybe um we set up a training course we'd hire a room in london 229 00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:38,580 and just off trafalgar square at the iod um and we bring 20 or 30 finance professionals so lawyers 230 00:18:38,580 --> 00:18:45,460 accountants, VCs, anyone who wanted to know about Bitcoin money and how the rest of the 231 00:18:45,460 --> 00:18:50,340 digital asset ecosystem fitted in. We wanted to give them a framework on how to think about it. 232 00:18:51,540 --> 00:18:57,220 It was effectively a light touch version of the Bitcoin standard in a demo. And the reason I give 233 00:18:57,220 --> 00:19:04,740 you this backstory is because we did it every six weeks for about two or three years before COVID 234 00:19:04,740 --> 00:19:11,700 it. And every session, there was one question that would undermine the whole day. And that 235 00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:16,900 was, look, David, you've just spent six or seven hours telling me why you think Bitcoin 236 00:19:16,900 --> 00:19:21,580 is money and how it meets store of value, medium of exchange, user account. First of 237 00:19:21,580 --> 00:19:28,400 all, are you okay? That's a lot of time. Second of all, I can't buy a sandwich with it. I 238 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:34,720 can't buy coffee with it. Nowhere in the UK accepts it. I don't believe you. It's not 239 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:40,320 of money it fails on the most basic of tests that i can't spend it and i just didn't have an answer 240 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:45,780 there's nothing like i said well look just wait you know just wait it will come it will come and 241 00:19:45,780 --> 00:19:51,020 you know there was a few people that i knew at the time and we sort of said look is it possible that 242 00:19:51,020 --> 00:19:56,200 it isn't going to happen that maybe actually we need to take action and build this ourselves 243 00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:03,500 um so the proposition the idea the motivation came um we saw that bitcoin was going to be adopted as 244 00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:09,420 store of value, buy bigger funds, institutions, that was obvious. But there was a job to be done 245 00:20:09,420 --> 00:20:14,380 and we thought actually I think the world is missing a trick here. Everyone is seeing and 246 00:20:14,380 --> 00:20:19,820 thinking of Bitcoin as an alternative payment method. And whilst that's not necessarily untrue, 247 00:20:20,860 --> 00:20:26,300 introducing it into a merchant payment stack adds so much more friction to them as a merchant and 248 00:20:26,300 --> 00:20:32,540 a human being. So the question was actually, okay, let's first of all build an incredible 249 00:20:32,540 --> 00:20:39,100 payment experience but then let's embed it and nest it inside a traditional experience let's not 250 00:20:39,100 --> 00:20:43,500 try let's meet merchants where they are today let's not try and you know tell them that their 251 00:20:43,500 --> 00:20:48,540 existing infrastructure and payment services are are rubbish because let's be honest apple pay 252 00:20:48,540 --> 00:20:54,220 double click is incredible um you know it's just and merchants don't care what happens in the 253 00:20:54,220 --> 00:21:00,300 background as long as they do get paid um and there isn't too high of a transaction cost so we 254 00:21:00,300 --> 00:21:06,600 we needed to make sure that we had a proposition that first of all was very, very good from a Bitcoin payments experience. 255 00:21:07,020 --> 00:21:14,300 Then also that we addressed all of the merchant challenges because introducing another degree of friction didn't wash. 256 00:21:14,300 --> 00:21:21,480 It was too much. So that's what we did. We set out on the journey to build everything, had to find the right team, 257 00:21:21,980 --> 00:21:28,860 bring the right mix of Bitcoiners versus traditional payments experience into the team and go from there. 258 00:21:28,860 --> 00:21:43,820 And that's the journey we find ourselves on now, accelerating Bitcoin as money in the merchant payment stack because people didn't believe me when I told them that Bitcoin was money a few years ago. 259 00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:46,180 Let's not pretend that this isn't ego driven. 260 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:51,940 Basically, they damaged my ego so badly in that session and they didn't believe me. 261 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:53,840 I was like, right, well, I'm going to prove you wrong. 262 00:21:53,840 --> 00:22:00,580 I took that seriously and let's build an entire business around this one question that's undermined my day. 263 00:22:01,460 --> 00:22:02,700 It's so interesting. 264 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,620 What I love is the genesis of all ideas. 265 00:22:07,780 --> 00:22:12,600 They come from different places at different times and it depends where you are in your life. 266 00:22:13,260 --> 00:22:16,260 It depends like, is this an opportunity you can take right now? 267 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:22,780 What of all of the 80 ideas you've had in the last two days are actually the one that you want to pursue? 268 00:22:22,780 --> 00:22:25,800 and it can be very difficult to actually figure out 269 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,740 this is what I'm going to focus on. 270 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:30,980 But once you made that call, 271 00:22:31,540 --> 00:22:33,860 I'd love to learn about the traction of the business 272 00:22:33,860 --> 00:22:35,480 because, and I'll give, 273 00:22:35,860 --> 00:22:37,860 these are admittedly completely anecdotal, 274 00:22:37,980 --> 00:22:39,320 but I think interesting examples. 275 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,080 Big news in the Bitcoin space last year 276 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:47,400 was the rollout of the Bitcoin option 277 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,180 for merchants currently using the Square terminals. 278 00:22:50,180 --> 00:22:57,340 and the bitcoin news was going crazy but no one else was really talking about it and i i found 279 00:22:57,340 --> 00:23:03,380 this out in two very clear ways one a local cafe that i love um in the town i was living at the time 280 00:23:03,380 --> 00:23:08,240 didn't have a clue that he could accept bitcoin using his square terminal that he was already 281 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:16,900 using one two there was a butcher that i like to use that's really into the idea of sovereignty and 282 00:23:16,900 --> 00:23:21,560 takes a very holistic approach to how they rear their cattle. 283 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:27,180 And they're already conscious of being audited in a way they don't want to be. 284 00:23:27,700 --> 00:23:30,040 And so you can absolutely go into their butcher's shop 285 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,280 and you can pay for stuff using a wallet of Satoshi transaction 286 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,160 and they'll take your Bitcoin and they'll sponsor the local meetup 287 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:37,800 and this kind of thing. 288 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,900 But their question about the Square stuff was like, 289 00:23:40,980 --> 00:23:44,460 if I switch this on, am I going to somehow get someone who's gone, 290 00:23:44,580 --> 00:23:46,760 oh, look, all these different people across the country 291 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:53,340 are now using this thing and am I going to get unnecessary attention so how have you found it 292 00:23:53,340 --> 00:24:01,600 building a a payments service and incorporating it into merchants like what do they constantly say 293 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,040 I can't do it for this reason or I just I'd love to understand how that's been for you guys 294 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:13,700 look that what you're sort of touching on here is the exact reason we're doing this the way that we 295 00:24:13,700 --> 00:24:20,760 are. And I'll talk more about that in a second, I guess. The sad realization that I came to 296 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:28,720 and that I still harbor is that people just, as much as we love Bitcoin, the mass majority 297 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:37,740 of people just don't care. And they just see Bitcoin as something interesting. And if I 298 00:24:37,740 --> 00:24:42,700 can pay with it, great. Most people just want to pay for stuff. Most merchants just want 299 00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:50,380 to get paid. It's going to take a lot longer than I'd anticipated for the world to move towards 300 00:24:50,380 --> 00:24:56,200 Bitcoin. Now, external factors may accelerate that if we see this continuing rise towards 301 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:02,360 totalitarianism, all of a sudden having a bearer asset that you can hold and that someone can 302 00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:08,400 transfer to you, all of a sudden becomes incredibly valuable. So that will accelerate. 303 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,340 as we're seeing that right now. 304 00:25:10,860 --> 00:25:12,940 The rollout of social credit systems 305 00:25:12,940 --> 00:25:14,380 and central bank currencies, 306 00:25:14,500 --> 00:25:16,820 I think, you know, will help Bitcoin adoption, 307 00:25:17,140 --> 00:25:18,920 not through the way that we like, 308 00:25:19,020 --> 00:25:21,700 but as a defensive technology for people. 309 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,100 But that's exactly the conclusion I came to, 310 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,540 is that, okay, we can build a world-class payment solution, 311 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:30,520 a Bitcoin payment solution. 312 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:31,500 I'm not worried about that. 313 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,480 The problem is scale and adoption. 314 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:35,940 And you're absolutely right. 315 00:25:35,940 --> 00:25:40,320 you know it was just incredible that square have done what they've done you know for me that just 316 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:46,040 validates our entire strategy and approach but it also shows and reiterates exactly what you said 317 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:51,220 from those anecdotes it just shows how early we are and how much work there is to do 318 00:25:51,220 --> 00:25:57,840 on the education front and you know people people don't go on holiday and get on a plane 319 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:03,980 um and knowing how physics and aerodynamics work they just don't question it they just 320 00:26:03,980 --> 00:26:08,300 I just want to get to my hotel in a nice hot country and have a nice relax. 321 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,400 They don't really care about everything else. 322 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:11,320 On time, preferably. 323 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:12,040 Right. 324 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,960 And I think as Bitcoiners, maybe we underestimate that effect. 325 00:26:16,180 --> 00:26:20,280 It's our job to make sure the thermodynamics and the airplane works. 326 00:26:21,020 --> 00:26:23,880 Don't push it down the merchant's throat if they don't want to know about it. 327 00:26:23,940 --> 00:26:26,560 Just tell them how great an experience it's going to be. 328 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:28,400 So that's what we do. 329 00:26:29,300 --> 00:26:31,500 We've designed the whole business as a Trojan horse. 330 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:33,520 We want to lay the infrastructure. 331 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,760 and you talked about Amboss earlier and others, 332 00:26:36,340 --> 00:26:38,600 anyone doing anything in the Lightning space, 333 00:26:38,860 --> 00:26:41,720 I'm just in awe of and a massive fan. 334 00:26:42,420 --> 00:26:44,860 I see our job and our role as Musket 335 00:26:44,860 --> 00:26:47,480 as the people who build the destinations. 336 00:26:48,100 --> 00:26:49,440 We aren't going to build the roads. 337 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:50,700 We aren't going to build the rails. 338 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,560 We're building out all of those destinations 339 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,540 for people to spend their Bitcoin. 340 00:26:55,220 --> 00:26:57,480 Other people can tackle other parts of the problem. 341 00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,380 That's not where we're focusing our effort. 342 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:01,520 If we build out all those destinations, 343 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:06,140 then the likelihood is we're going to see more and more transaction throughput. 344 00:27:06,140 --> 00:27:10,340 And there's a counter side to that as well, which we can come on to another product that 345 00:27:10,340 --> 00:27:15,760 we're building, which gets Bitcoin and Lightning specifically into people's pockets through 346 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:17,020 our payroll solution. 347 00:27:17,020 --> 00:27:32,180 But yeah I think it a really interesting space and we designed it this way because when we go and talk to merchants they get hit so many times every week with new payment providers 348 00:27:32,340 --> 00:27:35,560 It could be Elevon one week, WorldPay another week, Square another week. 349 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:45,060 You know, the sales machine and the incentive based approach for commission based sales in every country is really aggressive. 350 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,120 So you end up with aggressive sales approaches. 351 00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:54,760 um you know uh expletive warning coming up but you know i've done it myself i've been in the stores 352 00:27:54,760 --> 00:28:00,440 and gone and talked to business owners and go in and you go in and tell them who you are and why 353 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:05,080 you're here if you if you lead with payments my name is david i run a business i work for a 354 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,960 business called musket uh we're here to um we deliver payments for your business they literally 355 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:16,200 tell you to off and they put the phone down you know it's or you know physically to your face you 356 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:21,040 award on my team, literally told in no uncertain terms to leave the premises and never, ever 357 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:21,620 come back. 358 00:28:22,380 --> 00:28:22,420 Wow. 359 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,420 But if you leave with Bitcoin, it's a nice way in. 360 00:28:25,660 --> 00:28:28,620 So right now it's serving us quite nicely as a sales strategy. 361 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:34,040 We go in, whether it's a cold call, an email or a physical session, we say, look, what 362 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:34,920 do you think about Bitcoin? 363 00:28:35,900 --> 00:28:38,400 Did you know it's a new payment method? 364 00:28:38,580 --> 00:28:43,240 Everyone's using it or growth is accelerating, whatever the narrative is. 365 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:48,200 and typically very quickly merchants have got questions they've got questions that they've never 366 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,500 had anyone to ask they don't know where to research it so they'll just engage you in a nice conversation 367 00:28:52,500 --> 00:28:57,760 so as a minimum you can build a little bit of trust you cannot come across as threatening or 368 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:02,240 and then before you know it you know exactly how much money that is going through their books 369 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:07,340 who their current provider is why they don't like them what their rates are and maybe there's an 370 00:29:07,340 --> 00:29:12,400 angle that we can win, whether it's through payments, introducing Bitcoin or our EPOS 371 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:20,360 hospitality stack, which covers all their inventory, stock management, staff shift patterns 372 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:26,440 and rotors, et cetera. We can typically deliver value in some way, whether that's lower cost 373 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:33,680 processing or through improved outcomes and business services. And for us, Bitcoin, it helps 374 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:38,800 lead with that conversation. Sometimes it quite often helps to build that trust, which gets us 375 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:44,700 over the line. 80% of the conversation though is on rates and outcomes and service performance 376 00:29:44,700 --> 00:29:50,880 about the basics, about car payments typically. So, you know, for us, we had to become world-class 377 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:56,300 at Bitcoin first, then world-class at payments, and then world-class at telling a story that 378 00:29:56,300 --> 00:30:00,940 stitches all of that together. And, you know, we're on the journey to do that right now. 379 00:30:00,940 --> 00:30:08,540 we've got about 50 million live processing on the platform right now we should end january over 100 380 00:30:08,540 --> 00:30:15,200 million uh this year our target is to grow to about a billion volume processing um with a bit 381 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:20,380 of luck there's two deals that we're closing hopefully um so there's one if we can get it 382 00:30:20,380 --> 00:30:27,260 over the line um this half of the year that will be over 2 000 venues in the uk uh that we're on 383 00:30:27,260 --> 00:30:34,220 board with and that will be a similar approach to square um so we'll be uh onboarding them uh 384 00:30:34,220 --> 00:30:40,020 onto us but then it will be up to them whether they want to accept the bitcoin component or not 385 00:30:40,020 --> 00:30:44,860 again we won't push it down their throat too much so it's we will just be a critical or friendly 386 00:30:44,860 --> 00:30:50,960 agent to support them and help them along that journey with education and toolkits and other 387 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:56,860 things but again you know there's a final point there um our journey is such that i want to do 388 00:30:56,860 --> 00:31:02,360 this the right way. If you turn Bitcoin on and then no one uses it, it can have a negative effect. 389 00:31:03,020 --> 00:31:07,760 If a merchant puts their hand up and says, I now accept Bitcoin, and then it's tumbleweed, 390 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,760 no one goes and no one uses it. It doesn't look good to the merchant because they've just been 391 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:18,080 told by a bunch of Bitcoiners that everyone's going to flop to their store or volume and trade 392 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,580 will increase by two to 3%. So what we try and do is make sure when we onboard someone, 393 00:31:22,580 --> 00:31:29,060 We then make sure we link them into others in the Bitcoin space of interest or other potential business partners. 394 00:31:29,180 --> 00:31:32,700 So we try and do the best we absolutely can to help them along that journey. 395 00:31:33,820 --> 00:31:36,080 And then talking to them about what to do with their Bitcoin. 396 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,840 Once they've accepted it, they then theoretically have their own micro treasury. 397 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:49,120 And businesses, small businesses that hold their Bitcoin, ideally, we haven't arrived at the maturity of the market yet. 398 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:55,840 But ideally, I'd love to be extending into the financial services sector so that we can offer Bitcoin collateralized loans. 399 00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:04,980 So, you know, more aggressive rates in terms of fiat that you can structure tight and collateralized with Bitcoin. 400 00:32:05,260 --> 00:32:09,840 So that over time, as the Bitcoin price goes up, actually paying that loan off doesn't become burdensome. 401 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,900 And ideally, they'd never have to liquidate their Bitcoin at all. 402 00:32:14,900 --> 00:32:18,440 but they can use that as collateral to expand their business, 403 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,280 bring new people in, whatever they need to. 404 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,580 So I think we see it as Bitcoin as a Trojan horse 405 00:32:25,580 --> 00:32:27,140 within our broader ecosystem, 406 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,400 but it's the beginning of an ecosystem 407 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,680 that they can then use to pay their supply base. 408 00:32:33,900 --> 00:32:36,760 They can use it as incentives to pay their staff 409 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,240 either bonuses or salaries in, 410 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,920 and they can then use it as a reward currency 411 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,840 for cashback for people shopping at their store. 412 00:32:47,580 --> 00:32:51,860 So that's sort of how I think we're going to continue to roll out. 413 00:32:52,460 --> 00:32:55,120 For now, it's just a hardcore sales mission, 414 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,820 just knocking on doors, picking up the phone, chasing those leads. 415 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:04,820 We've got quite a lot of subscriptions to various lead gen engines online. 416 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,180 My commercial team are fantastic. 417 00:33:07,660 --> 00:33:11,420 So, yeah, it's growing, but that's what 2026 looks like for us. 418 00:33:11,420 --> 00:33:16,380 you know we did we've done a lot of the building uh most of the infrastructure is in place it's 419 00:33:16,380 --> 00:33:21,980 time to sell and scale now awesome david well i wish you the very very best of luck doing that 420 00:33:21,980 --> 00:33:26,700 because it's in some ways it's just brute force you know you just got to get out there and go and 421 00:33:26,700 --> 00:33:32,860 tell everyone about it um but that's not possible without the hustle to have got to this point 422 00:33:32,860 --> 00:33:37,260 like identifying the problem okay how can we solve it in some way okay we haven't solved it 423 00:33:37,260 --> 00:33:40,380 well enough now we've got to add this this and this okay now we have actually something quite 424 00:33:40,380 --> 00:33:45,180 useful is anyone using it shit no one's using it okay now someone's using it how do we do more of 425 00:33:45,180 --> 00:33:50,620 the stuff that they want to actually use it for um what's really cool though is to to hear that 426 00:33:50,620 --> 00:33:57,660 it's something that's been created with bitcoin at its core and in the not too distant future i hope 427 00:33:58,220 --> 00:34:05,420 that will be the norm but it's not yet the case and so i wonder the timeline it is probably longer 428 00:34:05,420 --> 00:34:10,780 than what I expect to. So I'm with you on that in terms of like the wider adoption pattern. 429 00:34:11,180 --> 00:34:16,940 But as a business founder and building out this product, do you think the fact that you like, 430 00:34:16,940 --> 00:34:21,180 do you have Bitcoin on the balance sheet of the business, for example? And does it put you in a 431 00:34:21,180 --> 00:34:27,740 better position? I'm with you totally on the Austrian economic stuff, like sitting down and 432 00:34:27,740 --> 00:34:32,620 thinking about time preference and go, oh my God, this stuff makes sense. I went through a business 433 00:34:32,620 --> 00:34:37,020 management degree and the maths and stats i did is just completely irrelevant in hindsight 434 00:34:37,020 --> 00:34:42,220 microeconomic stuff i did it's all keynesian driven and didn't actually make any sense you 435 00:34:42,220 --> 00:34:49,980 just had to regurgitate an exam and move on um with with the bitcoin at the core of the kind of 436 00:34:49,980 --> 00:34:54,080 intellectual capital of your business you're in such a strong position it just might take a bit 437 00:34:54,080 --> 00:35:02,340 longer to to get bigger um do you agree with that and and i hope that more bitcoiners start 438 00:35:02,340 --> 00:35:06,500 businesses you know they see an opportunity actually go out there and try and create something 439 00:35:06,500 --> 00:35:14,780 it might not work but it also might um so yeah and i mean a caveat to that as well being not 440 00:35:14,780 --> 00:35:20,460 caveat but an add-on to that being um did you raise money for the business and take investment 441 00:35:20,460 --> 00:35:22,320 and what was that process like as well? 442 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,020 Yeah, raising investments, awful. 443 00:35:25,540 --> 00:35:27,920 Worst experience I've ever had in my entire life. 444 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:29,920 Wow, interesting. 445 00:35:30,460 --> 00:35:33,120 But I also, you know, we also launched at a time 446 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:34,440 when the conditions were awful. 447 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,060 So, you know, it's as a first-time founder rather than, you know, 448 00:35:38,100 --> 00:35:42,240 not coming with a book of investors that would just open a check 449 00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:43,900 because you've got a track record. 450 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:45,400 Yeah, it's hard. 451 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,860 I mean, so we started July 2023. 452 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,560 We raised 750K. 453 00:35:53,300 --> 00:35:57,080 I started about nine months before that, trying to raise it. 454 00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:57,760 It took a while. 455 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:03,020 We got about 300K off the bat, and then it took another, I'd say, 456 00:36:03,140 --> 00:36:04,940 another six to nine months to close the remainder. 457 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,760 So we had enough to start and break ground and start building 458 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:09,640 and paying the engineers. 459 00:36:10,540 --> 00:36:13,520 And then it was a process of continuing to build everything out, 460 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,980 bring the right people in the team, build out our commercial contracts 461 00:36:17,980 --> 00:36:20,440 with our supply chain and go from there. 462 00:36:22,300 --> 00:36:26,840 So that took us through to January, February 2024. 463 00:36:27,900 --> 00:36:32,020 And then we opened up our seed round, which we're in the final phase now. 464 00:36:32,140 --> 00:36:33,020 I mean, it's unbelievable. 465 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:38,400 It's taken us over a year to, sorry, January 2025. 466 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:43,980 So the first 750k lasted us the best part of 18 months, I'd say. 467 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,160 We could go much faster and harder if we had more funding. 468 00:36:48,620 --> 00:36:50,140 You know, my team is incredible. 469 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:55,280 Ben DeWall, who's our CTO, used to be at Lightning Labs and Swan Bitcoin. 470 00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:02,920 He's just got an incredible pool of specifically Lightning engineers that we've got on our books, which is great. 471 00:37:03,660 --> 00:37:06,720 So, yeah, so then it was, okay, raise another round. 472 00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:08,620 So we're raising 5 million at the moment. 473 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,100 Well, we're in the final phase of raising that 5 million. 474 00:37:12,700 --> 00:37:15,280 But we are going to move straight into our Series A. 475 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,720 And what that looks like, I think, is market dependent. 476 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,540 You know, we could 10 million actually gets us to a lot of the, 477 00:37:22,660 --> 00:37:24,000 within two to three years, 478 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:28,140 gets us a lot of the product roadmap and engineering outcomes. 479 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:30,640 20 allows us to do a bit more M&A. 480 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,040 There's a few smaller businesses that I'd quite like to acquire 481 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,720 that have got technology and customer bases 482 00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:38,840 that I think would be incredibly valuable to us. 483 00:37:39,980 --> 00:37:43,320 100 million means that we can start to go after Visa and Mastercard. 484 00:37:43,460 --> 00:37:45,240 You know, we can, so it depends. 485 00:37:45,380 --> 00:37:48,260 I've got a plan of how much can we raise 486 00:37:48,260 --> 00:37:52,300 based on the different objectives and outcomes. 487 00:37:52,740 --> 00:37:55,240 Ultimately, the path and the outcomes don't change. 488 00:37:55,940 --> 00:37:57,640 It may just take longer. 489 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,880 So if we had, you know, a bottomless pit of cash, 490 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,720 we can just accelerate everything and go after everything now. 491 00:38:06,140 --> 00:38:08,960 But yeah, that's a very, very horrible phase 492 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:10,420 and a difficult journey. 493 00:38:10,540 --> 00:38:11,380 Liquidity is tough. 494 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,280 The hurdle rates, you've got to demonstrate 495 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,460 that your product works, that your team is good, 496 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:17,660 that you've got some traction, 497 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,280 that the revenues markers are met. 498 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,140 So I think the hurdle right now is a lot harder 499 00:38:23,140 --> 00:38:27,300 than perhaps it was pre-COVID for funding. 500 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,720 So yeah, anyone that's doing this, I salute them. 501 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,540 In terms of, I forgot the rest of your question, Jake. 502 00:38:35,780 --> 00:38:38,080 Well, it was a long question, which is a bit unfair. 503 00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:39,720 I try not to do that too much. 504 00:38:39,900 --> 00:38:42,380 Sometimes I'm also thinking about them. 505 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:50,460 It was more just like the mindset that you can have when you approach business, 506 00:38:50,460 --> 00:38:54,820 when you have Bitcoin behind you and the understanding for what sound money is. 507 00:38:55,340 --> 00:38:55,620 Yes. 508 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,540 Okay, now I can make plans. 509 00:38:58,540 --> 00:39:13,520 So on that, I mean, I guess, do we hold Bitcoin on the balance sheet? Yes and no. Yes, in the sense that we're a very lean startup. I hold it as long as I can before I have to pay salaries. 510 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:18,720 and we've gone from a team of six to a team of 22 in a year. 511 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,300 So we're in real scale mode. 512 00:39:23,420 --> 00:39:26,940 And again, as I say, we've gone from zero processing volume 513 00:39:26,940 --> 00:39:30,800 to the best part of 50 and a pipeline of over 800 514 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,240 and a revenue forecast with a pretty high degree of confidence 515 00:39:34,240 --> 00:39:37,600 of delivering it that sees us process about a billion 516 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,280 by this time next year. 517 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,000 And that generates about 3 million ARR. 518 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:49,700 for us. The numbers are very big because we're processing everything, but we make about 35 basis 519 00:39:49,700 --> 00:39:55,980 points per transaction on the fiat side. And again, the reason I give you this is because 520 00:39:55,980 --> 00:40:03,880 approaching it as a Bitcoiner is quite a narrow focus. And the way that we started out, we would 521 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:11,400 just have been perennially dependent upon handouts or not handouts, investment from VCs and constant 522 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:18,920 dilution raise raise raise raise raise um i don't like the idea of of raising and and diluting i 523 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:23,240 let traditional you know certain give me some investment i will turn that into a profitable 524 00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:28,360 business and we don't need to continually dilute you know i don't necessarily like the silicon 525 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:35,400 valley completely uh dilute until you're worth 10 billion um to the model um but you know i'm 526 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:39,800 learning on that side i'm learning to soften my approach a bit but because there is a balance i 527 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:44,180 I think, in between of actually raising the right amount of capital at the right time to fuel your growth. 528 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,520 But I think, so yes, we hold Bitcoin as long as we can on the balance sheet. 529 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:51,480 I would love to hold it longer. 530 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:52,980 We pay a lot of the staff in Bitcoin. 531 00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:57,000 We just deal with the accounting on the other side of that. 532 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:02,360 But I think the two things, Bitcoin's inevitable, right? 533 00:41:02,500 --> 00:41:15,980 And as a deep deep believer in Bitcoin Yeah I completely with you Bitcoin wins It outlives humanity It you know if this is a simulation I think I tweeted this morning then Bitcoin is simulation man 534 00:41:16,580 --> 00:41:25,480 You know, it's so hard-coded into the laws of mathematics, physics, thermodynamics, just the universal laws that govern our world and our universe. 535 00:41:26,260 --> 00:41:27,920 But it wins at the end of the day. 536 00:41:28,020 --> 00:41:28,780 You just cannot. 537 00:41:28,780 --> 00:41:34,720 I spent so long in those early years trying to think of, well, how can Bitcoin be broken? 538 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:36,040 How can it not work? 539 00:41:36,100 --> 00:41:51,360 And I think Seyfedean outlines the only way that Bitcoin could not succeed is likely by total global cooperation from all governments and all institutions and a return to a gold standard type of environment. 540 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,940 That's never happened and it never will. 541 00:41:53,940 --> 00:41:58,500 There's just too much risk and too much geopolitical division. 542 00:41:58,780 --> 00:42:04,520 So if that's the only risk, really, we can address the quantum computing risks. 543 00:42:04,740 --> 00:42:08,560 We can address any other risks that are thrown at Bitcoin. 544 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:18,900 So if it therefore becomes inevitable, building products and services around it that help it and accelerate the adoption becomes inevitably successful. 545 00:42:19,420 --> 00:42:27,460 The only problem you've got to solve for is survival and cash flow, which we've solved through alignment with payment card schemes. 546 00:42:27,460 --> 00:42:30,540 because actually you can make a small clip on every transaction 547 00:42:30,540 --> 00:42:34,100 and by providing value-added services. 548 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:40,860 So we do have a next-generation hospitality and management system 549 00:42:40,860 --> 00:42:48,360 that can completely transform a restaurant or a pub or a bar's front of house and back office. 550 00:42:48,660 --> 00:42:53,360 So by providing the good, bolting all those amazing merchant outcomes 551 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,320 together with a Bitcoin outcome, you've got a really powerful product. 552 00:42:57,460 --> 00:43:12,480 So I think that's given me the belief in the business. And I did have to think about this a lot before we launched. It's just, we're just in that phase where now it's just making sure we've got enough funding to grow and that we are growing and we're making the right partnerships. 553 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:20,300 And, you know, I'd be worried if I was sat here and we were spending money and we weren't seeing the traction or the interest. 554 00:43:21,060 --> 00:43:25,940 But the people that we're speaking to, you know, the businesses, these are enormous businesses. 555 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:38,260 We're not going to win the card processing volume for all of them, but we might start with Bitcoin and then we can work on the card processing volume over time and move that over to us again as we mature and grow. 556 00:43:38,260 --> 00:43:45,880 but you know as I said we've got an 850 million sales pipeline right now that's split across 557 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:53,020 e-commerce for our online gateway with our e-commerce plugin and across food and beverage 558 00:43:53,020 --> 00:43:59,520 hospitality merchants UK European footprint so we launched our first merchant in Spain a couple 559 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:04,640 of weeks ago we've got a really great I mean the three partnerships that I'll just finish this 560 00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:11,280 section on that we've got one Gibraltar International Bank. So a small bank in the grand 561 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:16,780 scheme of banks, but we are their in-house payments company. So they don't have a payments division. 562 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:22,680 They signed an agreement with us that we are their exclusive payments provider. Now we have a revenue 563 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:30,580 share with them, but effectively they've got a wonderful customer base in Gibraltar and we are 564 00:44:30,580 --> 00:44:32,120 in the middle of rolling out there. 565 00:44:32,180 --> 00:44:35,040 We think there's at least a 500 million volume opportunity there 566 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:36,520 that we're rolling out across. 567 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,440 And in the gaming and gambling space, 568 00:44:39,660 --> 00:44:44,400 Gibraltar processes 40% to 50% of the UK gaming and gambling volume 569 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,800 because of its unique jurisdiction and tax relationship. 570 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,240 So that's slightly changed recently, 571 00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:53,120 but it's still enormously advantageous. 572 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:55,320 So our links into there through that partnership 573 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,120 are incredibly valuable. 574 00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,200 Verifone, as I mentioned, is our hardware provider. 575 00:45:00,580 --> 00:45:07,340 So we'll be using their next generation hardware, both for the EPOS and for the card payment terminal. 576 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,760 Inside the Verifone device is a Vodafone SIM and eSIM. 577 00:45:12,380 --> 00:45:16,760 So our merchants then can make sure that they can process transactions wherever they are. 578 00:45:16,820 --> 00:45:21,120 If they're at a festival, if they're in the middle of a dead zone of no signal, 579 00:45:21,740 --> 00:45:25,520 well, it will swap from the Vodafone network onto whatever network is available. 580 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:31,540 So again, you can always process the Bitcoin transactions alongside card transactions. 581 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:34,180 And then Google as well. 582 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:43,760 We've partnered with Google Chrome OS team because our EPOS, they want use cases to demonstrate how stable the Chrome OS browser is. 583 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:50,320 And they use us and take us along to their demos across Europe. 584 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:55,440 We went to Barcelona, Paris, London with them last year to demonstrate our EPOS. 585 00:45:55,520 --> 00:46:02,320 solution so you know they've got a so they build a check a checkout environment and you go and have 586 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:07,520 an awful experience on one checkout and then they say we'll go next door and use the musket checkouts 587 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:13,120 which is running chrome os that was a another provider uh please come this way there's the 588 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:18,880 musket one so so that's nice so you know we struck a few uh a few big partnerships so i think we're 589 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:23,200 doing both you know we're getting the ones and twos on the board uh from smaller merchants as 590 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,280 as well as going after much bigger retailers and scale partnerships. 591 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:29,380 And Bitcoin's a difference maker. 592 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:31,880 You know, everyone from board level to CEO, 593 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,740 we don't bother really going in and building our relationships in the business. 594 00:46:35,740 --> 00:46:38,180 We go straight in at the top to talk to the leadership 595 00:46:38,180 --> 00:46:41,320 about how Bitcoin can transform their business. 596 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:42,960 We can help them with payments. 597 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,000 Their CFO can benefit from a treasury strategy. 598 00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:48,460 And, you know, we can give them all of the infrastructure they need 599 00:46:48,460 --> 00:46:50,440 to do one or all of those. 600 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:52,640 So it's a really powerful thing. 601 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:57,860 And as you say, as a final point, anyone that is thinking about starting a Bitcoin business, 602 00:46:58,420 --> 00:47:00,660 yeah, just make sure you've got a route to revenue. 603 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:07,020 But attaching Bitcoin and a Bitcoin strategy onto existing business processes or a business 604 00:47:07,020 --> 00:47:09,200 proposition, it's incredibly powerful. 605 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:10,540 It doesn't really matter what it is. 606 00:47:11,300 --> 00:47:14,000 I just think Bitcoin wins regardless. 607 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:16,680 That's very cool, David. 608 00:47:16,780 --> 00:47:18,080 Well, well done with all the progress. 609 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:20,260 We're shunting up on the hour. 610 00:47:20,260 --> 00:47:22,620 So I'm going to keep this as just one final question. 611 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,420 It's a difficult journey, entrepreneurship. 612 00:47:27,460 --> 00:47:31,660 So if you could share, like, if anyone's out there thinking about it 613 00:47:31,660 --> 00:47:34,440 or maybe just at the very early stages, 614 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:38,260 like what was just the one thing, if you could remember so far, 615 00:47:38,380 --> 00:47:39,660 that you wish you'd known? 616 00:47:43,940 --> 00:47:48,300 I wish I'd known how hard funding was going to be. 617 00:47:48,300 --> 00:47:54,420 the trouble is if i'd have known how hard it was going to be i probably wouldn't have done it 618 00:47:54,420 --> 00:48:00,980 because there have been days when i've wow oh there have been times when it's been so close 619 00:48:00,980 --> 00:48:07,780 you know um and you know i don't take um you know we bring the team i brought the team in at the 620 00:48:07,780 --> 00:48:14,160 right stages and the right growth but there's been times when you're staring down you've got 24 hours 621 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:21,600 to find 50k um and you know it's not as drastic as that because at any one time you know you've got 622 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:28,320 typically millions of pounds worth of conversations live but about investment but 623 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:34,720 talking to getting getting that investment from a discussion through to signed paperwork through 624 00:48:34,720 --> 00:48:41,340 to funds in account takes time and you and you know if it's just you doing it and there's a 625 00:48:41,340 --> 00:48:46,780 there's a handful of others building the product it it takes time but it also takes quite a big toll 626 00:48:46,780 --> 00:48:56,140 um it certainly has on me um you know right now my role is very much guidance um and direction 627 00:48:56,140 --> 00:49:02,780 but focusing i'd say 80 plus percent of my time on closing the next funding round you know we've 628 00:49:02,780 --> 00:49:08,060 spent a lot of time in the last quarter defining our vision our product roadmap what we want to 629 00:49:08,060 --> 00:49:13,180 achieve how we want to achieve it and the team are now able just to go off and execute that whilst 630 00:49:13,180 --> 00:49:18,540 i focus on bringing the investment in because for us we've got another year before we're truly ebit 631 00:49:18,540 --> 00:49:24,300 and um and cash flow positive uh from that point we're fine but you've got to survive and if you 632 00:49:24,300 --> 00:49:31,180 don't survive then it doesn't matter how good the idea is um you know you need that oxygen so i think 633 00:49:31,180 --> 00:49:36,060 funding is is the hardest bit so you know plan that out figure out where you're going to get it from 634 00:49:36,060 --> 00:49:41,900 on make sure you're ready for funding as well um again i i sort of i probably watched too many 635 00:49:41,900 --> 00:49:48,600 startup films and assumed that a good deck and a great story and a nice suit to get your investment 636 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:53,840 but the hurdle rate's just so high um and i think you know reflecting on that what does that all 637 00:49:53,840 --> 00:50:00,040 boil down to if you're not willing to give everything i'd hesitate stop short of saying 638 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,300 if you're not willing to die for it you know i think i don't think anything's necessarily worth 639 00:50:03,300 --> 00:50:10,360 dying for but you have to be willing in my experience to sacrifice everything everything 640 00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:16,720 to make it work because it takes and it takes such a strong mental toll so if you've got a great 641 00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:22,060 you know stable setup where you've got supportive family partner maybe your kids that you either 642 00:50:22,060 --> 00:50:27,680 don't have kids or they're a little bit older um you know you need a buffer you need to know it's 643 00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:33,340 going to be okay if everything went wrong um not too much so that you're comfortable and you don't 644 00:50:33,340 --> 00:50:38,680 push hard um but those days when i was sort of a couple of years ago waking up thinking 645 00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:45,220 i've got to find 50k by friday how it's tuesday um i don't know how i'm going to do it 646 00:50:45,220 --> 00:50:55,400 but i did um only because you know i think the mission was so clear the drive was so um so strong 647 00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:57,660 and I just didn't see any other option. 648 00:50:57,860 --> 00:51:00,880 You have to just do whatever it takes 649 00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:03,580 to make sure that each step is made. 650 00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,320 And then you look back and all of a sudden 651 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:10,240 we've made an absolute shit ton of amazing steps, 652 00:51:10,240 --> 00:51:12,800 whether that's funding, a product build, 653 00:51:12,940 --> 00:51:14,860 a new launch, signed a client, 654 00:51:15,580 --> 00:51:17,380 found a couple of team members. 655 00:51:17,540 --> 00:51:20,860 And all of a sudden there's a sort of trail of success 656 00:51:20,860 --> 00:51:22,740 in inverted commas behind you. 657 00:51:22,740 --> 00:51:27,540 and you're just staring down a wall of fear again. 658 00:51:27,720 --> 00:51:29,680 It's like, well, how the hell are we going to... 659 00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:30,320 Next bit, yeah. 660 00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:32,080 Yeah, how are we going to go from there 661 00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:33,700 to a billion sales and profitability 662 00:51:33,700 --> 00:51:36,100 and raise 10 times the amount? 663 00:51:36,900 --> 00:51:38,860 And it's just doing just the same ethos, 664 00:51:38,980 --> 00:51:42,400 just get up, work hard and network 665 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,100 and live and breathe the mission. 666 00:51:44,100 --> 00:51:49,320 And theoretically, I think what's the phrase? 667 00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:50,480 I don't know who it came from. 668 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:53,420 maybe it's some sort of cheesy Chinese proverb, 669 00:51:53,420 --> 00:51:58,560 but set off on the path and then along the journey, 670 00:51:58,660 --> 00:52:00,920 the way will appear, something like that. 671 00:52:01,340 --> 00:52:04,000 But if you know where you're going and you do that 672 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:07,660 and you commit to it, then I think quite often events 673 00:52:07,660 --> 00:52:11,280 and circumstances can serendipitously go in your favor. 674 00:52:11,700 --> 00:52:12,000 Yes. 675 00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,480 I really like the phrase, David, that action leads to clarity. 676 00:52:17,260 --> 00:52:18,140 Right, yeah. 677 00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:19,460 It's kind of similar, right? 678 00:52:19,460 --> 00:52:25,520 yeah um well david that that's all we have time for in the call today i like to keep it to about 679 00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:30,440 an hour thank you so much for joining me and taking me through all that if i could share one 680 00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:37,180 last thing just listening to you the the ability to be sensitive to your own frustration and 681 00:52:37,180 --> 00:52:43,120 difficulties is an incredible thing to witness and i'm sure it has been very hard what you just 682 00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:50,860 explain but fronting up and actually saying that was really fucking hard is crucial i'm sure to like 683 00:52:50,860 --> 00:52:55,540 working through it because a lot of people just take on the stress and ignore it and be fine do 684 00:52:55,540 --> 00:52:59,220 you know what i mean just being like i don't know what the right phrase is being sensitive or being 685 00:52:59,220 --> 00:53:03,220 willing to be vulnerable and publicly with a conversation like this absolutely awesome 686 00:53:03,220 --> 00:53:08,900 and it's why people like podcasts because they listen to that and they go oh they're real oh 687 00:53:08,900 --> 00:53:12,220 do you know what i'm going to check that musket thing out i'm going to tell my mate about it and 688 00:53:12,220 --> 00:53:16,240 it's suddenly like you get a phone call from someone who's listened to this podcast because 689 00:53:16,240 --> 00:53:22,040 i know a crew of pubs or i know do you know what i mean and that's how the snowball continues yeah 690 00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:27,860 um and i think it's authenticity if i could summarize it as one word so yeah david awesome 691 00:53:27,860 --> 00:53:31,980 thank you so much for sharing your time with me today i wish you the very best of luck building 692 00:53:31,980 --> 00:53:37,440 musket over the years to come um any where or any final send-off that you want to share that we might 693 00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:41,600 not have covered or how can people reach out look it's been thanks for having me it's been great to 694 00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:45,660 be on and you know it's a really interesting point yeah i didn't mean to turn this into a therapy 695 00:53:45,660 --> 00:53:51,420 session no no i love it that's what long form podcast all about mate but um but you know you 696 00:53:51,420 --> 00:53:56,780 raise a really good point it has been a very tough journey both personally professionally and you know 697 00:53:56,780 --> 00:54:01,300 it's been incredibly hard if there's anyone out who's whether you're building a bitcoin business 698 00:54:01,300 --> 00:54:06,460 or not just you know i didn't have really anyone to chat to about it just rattled around in my own 699 00:54:06,460 --> 00:54:11,300 head and trying to solve problems so if anyone does want a therapy session and just uh shoot 700 00:54:11,300 --> 00:54:18,900 please drop me a note i'm on i'm on x musket m-u-s-q-e-t underscore david um on x uh drop 701 00:54:18,900 --> 00:54:24,980 me an email david at musket.tech um but yeah reach out pretty easy um if you're in the uk always 702 00:54:24,980 --> 00:54:32,260 happy to meet uh typically in london uh and i tend to be at bitcoin um bitcoin events uh and 703 00:54:32,260 --> 00:54:37,620 conferences a few times a year so always reach out and um yeah happy to help anyway especially 704 00:54:37,620 --> 00:54:41,960 anyone working in Bitcoin or generally just going through a similar journey. 705 00:54:42,300 --> 00:54:43,720 Always happy to share and help. 706 00:54:44,500 --> 00:54:44,840 Awesome. 707 00:54:45,020 --> 00:54:46,060 Well, thank you for your time, David. 708 00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:46,900 Awesome. 709 00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:47,400 Take care.